Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 16 October 2000 (continued)
1.00 pm
Mr Morrow:
I thank all the Members who have taken part in the debate. Many useful comments have been made about the general principles of the Bill, which will provide a more structured and working scheme that will be to the benefit of all parties.
Prospective traders will better understand the types of trading covered by the Bill. Where trading is permitted in a district council area, the councils will have clear guidelines and an effective deterrent that will enable them to deal with those who trade without a licence. Ultimately, the success of the scheme will depend on its practical operation, but the end results should benefit the general public. They will see street trading regulated in a way that allows them to go about their daily business without undue obstruction.
I will now try to deal with the points made and raised by individual Members. Mr Maginness and Mr Dodds asked when and how the Bill would come into operation. It will come into operation by means of an Order made by the Department for Social Development. That is likely to be four months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, to give the district councils adequate time to prepare for the new procedures that they requested. It is unlikely that Royal Assent will be granted before Christmas.
Mr Hussey asked why district councils are prevented from charging a figure more closely related to the disparity in the rates. The purpose of the Bill is to regulate street trading; it is not a financial measure aimed at income generation. The provisions for the setting of fees and charges limit district councils to recouping the costs of administering and enforcing the system, which is only right and proper. Within those limits they may charge what they wish, and street trading-stalls may be liable for rates.
I agree with Mr Dodds on the ineffectiveness of the present legislation, which is some 70 years old and not in line with the requirements of modern society.
Mr Wilson raised a number of questions. He had concerns about the Bill's preventing licence holders from employing young people, especially in the summer holidays. The relevant provisions of the Bill clarify the law on children by making it clear that while a licence holder may employ assistants, the provisions of article 135(4) of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 prevent the licence holder from engaging children. Assistants must be over the legal school-leaving age, and any offence in this regard would be under the Children Order.
Mr Wilson also asked why car boot sales are not exempt from the requirement to have a street trading licence, especially those run by bodies such as churches and scout groups. It is anticipated that most private car boot sales will not require a licence - not because they are exempt but because the trading does not take place in a street, as defined in the Bill. Provided that the activity takes place in an area that is separated from a road or footpath by a wall or fence, the question of a street trading licence will not arise.
Mr Wilson also raised the point of whether district councils or the police can seize anything they wish from an illegal street trader. Items may be seized only if they are to be used as evidence in court proceedings or are the subject of a forfeiture application in court. If an unauthorised council officer or a police officer seizes items unlawfully, the court may award compensation for the loss or deterioration of those items. Any item may be seized.
Mr Wilson underlined the exclusion from the Bill of issues such as health and safety. Many important issues affect our streets, but they are not exclusive to street trading. The new street trading legislation cannot be used to cure the ills of other legislation. Concerns about the suitability of any street for trading can be addressed when a council is considering if that street should be so designated.
I trust I have covered all the points that were raised by Members. If I have missed anything, a reply will be given later.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Second Stage of the Street Trading Bill (NIA 2/00) be agreed.
The sitting was suspended at 1.05 pm.
On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) -
Assembly Business
2.30 pm
Mr P Robinson:
Mr Speaker, have you received any notice of a personal statement from the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to apologise for not being present, for disrupting the business of the House and for allowing the Bill that she was supposed to be presenting to be put back because of her inexplicable absence?
Mr Speaker:
If any Member is not here for a piece of business which requires his or her presence - whether a Bill, a motion or a question - it falls, but it may come forward later for consideration by the Business Committee. That is the position.
The answer to the Member's question is that I have not received any communication in respect of this matter.
Mr P Robinson:
Are you saying that not only have you not received any request from the Minister to make a personal statement by way of apology to the Assembly, but you have not received any explanation of her absence either?
Mr Speaker:
I have been occupied with visitors to the Assembly, as several Members will know, and I cannot say whether there has been an attempt to get a message to me.
Mr Dallat:
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Do you take comfort from the fact that the DUP now wants Sinn Féin in the Assembly?
Mr Speaker:
I am at a loss as to what the point of order is. We should allow the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to proceed with their questions.
Oral Answers to Questions
First minister and Deputy First Minister
Mr Speaker:
Question 2, standing in the name of Mr Joe Byrne, has been withdrawn, and I understand that the Member in whose name question 5 stands is not able to be here and will receive a written response.
Civic Forum
1.
Mrs E Bell
asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister if they will confirm that the first meeting of the Civic Forum has taken place and to detail plans for future meetings.
The First Minister (Mr Trimble):
I am pleased to confirm that the first meeting of the Civic Forum took place on Monday 9 October in the BT Studio in the Waterfront Hall. No date has been set for the next meeting, but the Forum expects to meet in plenary session in December. The location of further meetings of the Forum will be a matter for members of the Forum. Consideration will be given to holding future meetings in venues across Northern Ireland.
Mrs E Bell:
I attended the first meeting and found it very worthwhile. Does the First Minister agree that, given the interest of the general public in this very important Forum, communcation and information should be of the highest quality?
The First Minister:
I do indeed agree that we want to ensure that the highest quality information is available. The Member will have noticed the extent of the publicity for the first meeting and I am sure that the public interest reflected by that will be sustained. The Deputy First Minister, and I and the Assembly as a whole must consider how best to make use of the Civic Forum. It will be a channel for information from some sectors of civil society and for views to be expressed. Collectively, we have to consider the value that we put upon the deliberations of the Forum.
Ms Morrice:
Can the First Minister explain what his plans are for how the Assembly should co-operate with the Civic Forum? Also, does he intend to have a consultative procedure to allow us to examine ways to co-operate with the Civic Forum?
The First Minister:
I am not in a position to answer that, because no definitive proposals have yet emerged. It might be unwise of me simply to muse out loud on the matter. Establishing the Forum within six months of devolution represents a tremendous effort by the office and the staff involved. The office did remarkably well to achieve that objective.
As the Member said, we have to consider how best to make use of the Forum. We want to hear the views of Forum members and of Assembly Members. We do not have a pre-prepared set of ideas. There are no arrangements that we wish to impose upon the Forum. We want to think the matter through. Because of that, I will resist the temptation to think out loud.
Mr S Wilson:
Does the First Minister not agree that he has already used the Civic Forum to reward those to whom he wishes to give patronage - to appoint and reward failed party candidates, to reward complaining loyalist paramilitary spokesmen and to keep the IRA quiet by nominating a convicted IRA terrorist?
The First Minister:
I am at a loss to understand that last point. The Member knows that appointments to the Civic Forum were made by a range of organisations from a variety of sectors in civic society. Consortia were formed by interested bodies, and they made 54 of the appointments. The Deputy First Minister and I made six appointments in total. We made it absolutely clear that three were nominated by the Deputy First Minister and three were nominated by myself.
To deal with the Member's first comments, which were of a personal nature, I think that the persons concerned will have every reason to feel aggrieved that they have been referred to in those terms in this Assembly. I reject that description.
Cross-Departmental Issues
3.
Mr McCarthy
asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, further to their reply on 18 September, what action has been taken on plans to establish Executive sub-committees on cross- departmental issues.
The Deputy First Minister:
It is entirely a matter for the Executive to decide how their business will be conducted. Sub-committees are neither provided for, nor precluded, by the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The Executive is currently considering how best to address cross-departmental issues, particularly in the context of the Programme for Government. The Executive will determine the role and remit of any sub-committees and retain overall responsibility for all decisions taken.
Mr McCarthy:
Does the Deputy First Minister agree that the sooner Executive sub-committees are established the better? We might have sub-committees involving the Department of Health and the Department for Social Development, or the Department for Regional Development, which is responsible for the 'Shaping Our Future' document, and the Department of the Environment, which is presently drawing up area plans.
The Deputy First Minister:
The Member will be aware that I do not want to anticipate any decisions made by the Executive on this matter. I agree with him on the value of dealing with cross-cutting issues. There are many cross-cutting issues, and I believe that the decisions that the Executive will make will allow such issues to be dealt with whatever structures are created.
Mr McMenamin:
Does the Deputy First Minister agree that the non-appearance of the Minister for Social Development at the inter-ministerial meeting on drugs is a deplorable derogation of responsibility? Can he assure Members that the Executive will press ahead and establish good government despite the DUP?
The Deputy First Minister:
I assure the Member that we will do everything in our power to ensure good government. In relation to the substance of his question, I state that since 2 September 1999 DUP Ministers have not attended meetings, but they have offered views on papers circulated to them.
The DUP Ministers have submitted memoranda to the Executive Committee on a wide range of topics, but have refused to attend Executive meetings to discuss issues arising, even on matters of public interest. The Minister for Regional Development did not attend the Executive meeting that discussed the outbreak of cryptosporidium. The Minister for Social Development refused to attend the first meeting of the ministerial group on drugs, which was held last week. That refusal to participate in meetings addressing matters of such vital significance to everybody in Northern Ireland, especially parents, children and young people, reflects the fact that some Ministers seem to think that playing party politics is more important than tackling the real problems facing society.
Mr Hussey:
I am interested in Mr McCarthy's proposal. Is the Deputy First Minister prepared to guarantee that a Minister taking part in a sub-committee would actually turn up, unlike a Minister who did not do so this morning in the House?
The Deputy First Minister:
I anticipate that whatever structures the Executive decides upon for handling cross-cutting issues, it will be a very important part of the deliberations of the Executive. We would like to see all Ministers attending not just the Executive but any sub-committees that may be formed by the Executive. I include all of us in that, and it is crucially important that issues are dealt with in a way that is both unified and creative, especially those cross-cutting issues which go right across the 10 Departments.
Mr S Wilson:
Is it not the height of hypocrisy for the Deputy First Minister to lecture anyone in this House about boycotting or not attending meetings when he has almost daily been pontificating about the refusal of his party to attend police structures if it does not get its way in the Police Bill?
Mr Speaker:
Order. The Member is straying well wide of Executive sub-committees, and he is aware of it. The question is out of order.
Major Accident Hazards Directive
4.
Mr Beggs
asked the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister if they have made any representations to the Government of the Republic of Ireland regarding that country's non-implementation of obligations under the Major Accident Hazards Directive (96/82/EC).
The First Minister:
No representations have been made to the Government of the Republic of Ireland concerning that country's non-implementation of obligations under the Major Accident Hazards Directive (96/82/EC). We understand that the necessary regulations to implement the directive with regard to the Republic of Ireland are expected to be made by the end of October 2000. The non-implementation of EC directives by member states is a matter for the European Commission to pursue under the infraction procedures established by article 226 of the EC Treaty.
It is our understanding that the Republic of Ireland authorities consider that within their jurisdiction there are no major accident hazard sites that have the potential to give rise to cross-border effects, and we have no information to the contrary.
Mr Beggs:
Does the First Minister agree that the failure to adopt this could possibly endanger both the environments and the citizens of Northern Ireland? Does he agree that it is essential that our own regional central emergency planning unit should continue to receive our support? Will he suggest to the Government of the Irish Republic that they create a similar body? I understand that they do not have such a body.
The First Minister:
The Member has referred to our central emergency planning unit. Of course, we do have such a unit. The authorities in the Republic of Ireland are aware of its role and function, and they liaise regularly with it to exchange and share information and best practice in the field of emergency planning. However, it is entirely a matter for them to decide what arrangements they should make for emergency planning in their own jurisdiction.
Of course, hazards that could have cross-border effects are a matter of real concern to us. However, on the information available to us, it does not look as if there are any such hazards.
2.45 pm
Ministers: Pledge of Office
6.
Mr McClarty
asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what action has been taken to ensure that all Ministers in the Executive Committee are adhering to their Pledge of Office as defined in the Agreement of 10 April 1998, Strand One, Annex A.
The First Minister:
Ministers are required by section 18(8) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to affirm the Pledge of Office set out in the Belfast Agreement before taking up office. The Executive Committee has adopted a ministerial code which provides guidance for Ministers on their relationship with the Executive Committee and on the conduct of their ministerial duties. Compliance with the code promotes and underpins ministerial adherence to many elements of the Pledge of Office. However, it is ultimately a matter for the Assembly to decide whether there has been such a breach of the Pledge of Office as to resolve to exclude a Minister or a political party from office.
Mr McClarty:
Does the First Minister agree that the Republican movement's failure to decommission its weapons brings into question the adherence of Sinn Féin Ministers to section (b) of the Pledge of Office? Does he also agree that the only reason that the Ulster Unionist Party was prepared to restore devolution this year was on the basis of the IRA's promise in May to put its weapons completely and verifiably beyond use? Therefore, is it not outrageous that the Republican movement has still not kept this promise some five months later?
The First Minister:
The Member is correct in that the Pledge of Office includes a
"commitment to non-violence and exclusively peaceful and democratic means".
The individuals who take that pledge do so on the basis of being the representatives of their party and, indeed, of the movement that brought them to where they are now. The Member is also correct in saying that the promises made by the Republican movement in May were critical to the restoration of devolution. It is a disappointment to us to find, five months after the event, that the promise to initiate a process that would put weapons completely and verifiably beyond use, and on that basis to engage with the de Chastelain Commission, has yet to be redeemed.
Mr Dallat:
Does the First Minister agree that all Ministers must comply with the Pledge of Office, particularly Annex A(a) and (e), which require Ministers to discharge all duties of office and to operate within the framework of the Programme for Government when it is approved? What are the First Minister's views on the DUP's non-compliance?
The First Minister:
We have the curious situation of people who hold ministerial office and discharge that office in virtually all respects in relation to their ministerial functions, what they do in their offices and the representations they make with their Colleagues. They do everything that is connected with that office except meet their Colleagues and discuss matters with them from time to time. That is not a full adherence of the Pledge of Office.
However, the Administration is functioning with regard to all its Departments. The only people who are harmed by the non-participation in some Committees of DUP Ministers are those DUP Ministers, who consequently deprive themselves of the opportunity to contribute to collective decision making. We are determined that this Administration should proceed and that the public service should be protected. If some Members are too shy to come and speak to their Colleagues that is their own lookout.
Mr Paisley Jnr:
Will the First Minister explain why he is simply disappointed at Sinn Féin's non-compliance with its Pledge of Office, given that IRA/Sinn Féin Members and their organisation continue to be involved in gun-running from the United States of America and continue to be involved in paramilitary attacks? At the weekend there was the sanctioning of a murder by the Provisional IRA. Surely this, more than anything else, is a breach of the Pledge of Office. Instead of expressing disappointment, what sanctions is he going to put on the Provisional IRA and its Ministers in this Government?
The First Minister:
When I used the term "disappointment" I was avoiding the hyperbole, exaggeration and bombast which characterise the DUP. Our disappointment on this matter is extremely serious, and the Republican movement is aware of that. However, I must deprecate the conduct of the Member who asked that question in another matter too.
There was, indeed, a very regrettable murder this weekend, and some people are attributing it to mainstream Republicans. At the moment, the Chief Constable says that he cannot rule out the involvement of any organisation or come to any conclusion about who was involved. I hope that the Chief Constable will soon be able to tell us whom the police believe to be responsible for that and other murders. Many violent incidents have occurred, and we need to know the police's assessment, but we should not jump to one conclusion rather than another, because it serves the purposes of a particular political party. We need a balanced view from the Chief Constable in order to arrive at a conclusion.
Mr C Wilson:
The First Minister knows - and the majority of people in the community believe - that the murder of Joseph O'Connor at the weekend was carried out by the Provisional IRA. If the Chief Constable confirms that, will the First Minister give an undertaking that he will remove Sinn Féin representatives from the Executive? Failing that, will he give an undertaking to the House that he will do the honourable and decent thing and lead his party out of the Executive? Even his bible - the Belfast Agreement - makes it clear that Sinn Féin Members are in breach of section (b) of the Pledge of Office. It clearly states that they must have a
"commitment to non-violence and exclusively peaceful and democratic means."
No one believes for one moment that Mr Adams, Mr McGuinness and the other Sinn Féin Members have any commitment to that pledge.
Mr Speaker:
Order. This is Question Time; it is not an opportunity for speeches.
The First Minister:
The Member can talk about his beliefs and the beliefs of others but he is not in a position to say anything about what I know, other than what he hears from me. He does not know what I know. That is a simple point about the loose use of language by the Member.
The Member can rely on my Colleagues and me to do the decent and honourable thing for society in Northern Ireland, particularly the 71% who want to see the process working. We will pursue our objective of achieving devolution and decommissioning. The Member is quick to urge other people to walk out but is himself slow to move. [Interruption]
Mr Speaker:
Members know that I do not take points of order during Question Time. I will take them at the end.
Mr P Robinson:
How many guns must the IRA attempt to bring into the Province and how many people must be killed before the First Minister will exclude Sinn Féin from Government?
The First Minister:
Many assumptions have been made in that statement and old history has been raked up. With regard to what my party will decide in the coming weeks and months, I refer the Member to my party conference speech, in which I touched on those matters.
OFMDFM: Special Advisers
7.
Mr Ford
asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister if they can confirm that all those employed in their Office as Special Advisers are complying with their terms and conditions of employment.
The Deputy First Minister:
We are satisfied that all those employed as Special Advisers in the Office of the First and the Deputy First Minister are complying with their terms and conditions of employment.
Mr Ford:
I fear that the Deputy First Minister is not well informed as to the activities of some Special Advisers. It may be difficult for him to answer this supplementary question, which illustrates one of the unsatisfactory features of putting questions jointly to the Ministers. Could he ask his Colleague to write to me and explain how someone employed as a Special Adviser in the Office of the First Minister can act as a press officer to David Trimble as leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, accompany other Ulster Unionists to news conferences, and act as a spin doctor for the party, while supposedly being a civil servant?
The Deputy First Minister:
I have no doubt about the identity of the person to whom the Member is referring, but I want to put it on the record that, so far as I am aware, there is no evidence that any Special Adviser has broken his or her terms of employment. Let me put on record what those terms are, and actually say what a Special Adviser may or may not do.
In terms of fulfilling his obligations, a Special Adviser may attend the Minister's party functions and maintain contact with party members, but not speak publicly at a party conference. He may take part in policy reviews organised by the party. He may undertake all forms of local political activity - that is, in connection with local authorities, local councils - but not activities in support of national politics (and that includes the Assembly). He may provide specialist or political advice to his Minister during an election campaign.
A Special Adviser may not take part in what is termed national political activity - Assembly, Westminster or European activity, as opposed to local government. [Interruption]
Mr Speaker:
Order.
The Deputy First Minister:
He may not speak in public matters of national political controversy or express views on such matters in letters to the press or in books, articles or leaflets. He may not be announced publicly as a candidate or a prospective candidate for the Assembly, Parliament or the European Parliament. He may not canvass on behalf of a candidate for the Assembly, Parliament or the European Parliament or on behalf of a political party or otherwise take part actively in an election campaign other than by giving advice to the Minister. Those are the dos and don'ts in relation to Special Advisers, and I would be very keen to offer to deal with any specifics or any definite points that the Assemblyman or anyone else would like to raise on the matter.
Mr A Doherty:
The Deputy First Minister can be assured that his initiative of appointing Special Advisers is widely recognised as a very worthwhile innovation. However, can we be assured that the DUP tendency for revolving Ministers, accompanied by revolving DUP Special Advisers, will not be a tax burden and will not be at tax payers' expense?
The Deputy First Minister:
I thank the Assemblyman for the question. Special Advisers have been of great importance and great significance in terms of the Office of First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and I know they have been very helpful to other Ministers as well.
In relation to the specific point he raises, the model contract between Departments and Special Advisers has been reviewed to reflect the possibility that some advisers may be employed for relatively short periods of time.
The current model contract provides that where an adviser resigns within six months of the commencement of his employment to participate in elections, he is entitled to one month's severance pay only. It has been decided to extend this principle so that if an adviser's employment terminates within six months of appointment for any reason he is entitled to one month's severance pay only. This change applies to contracts entered into from 4 October 2000. It cannot be applied retrospectively to existing contracts.
Mr Paisley Jnr:
The Deputy First Minister wants specifics. Can he tell us specifically if it is compatible for a civil servant or Special Adviser, namely Mr King -
Mr Ford:
The Member has got the wrong one.
Mr Paisley Jnr:
I have not. This is a different one - so there is more than one doing it.
Is it compatible for a civil servant or Special Adviser, namely Mr King, to take part in an election campaign by using a platform piece in the 'Belfast Telegraph' to blatantly electioneer for his party to such an extent that the newspaper had to give another political party the right to reply? Is that taking part in elections? If so, will the Deputy First Minister condemn that? Will he condemn it as an abuse of the role of that civil servant, and will he indicate to us what disciplinary action should be taken to sanction that person?
I note that the First Minister is giggling and going quite red, but after the South Antrim by-election he was nearly crying.
3.00 pm
The Deputy First Minister:
It is a matter of record that Mr King is not employed as a Special Adviser in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I can assure the Member that Mr King is not employed as a Special Adviser by the First Minister, and I can doubly assure him that he is not employed by me.
I fully agree with the Member's second point. It would not be compatible for any Special Adviser to do what the Member described: write articles on behalf of one political party or another, or to otherwise campaign in an election. I would like to be specific on that, because I know it is a very sensitive issue. I am glad to be utterly specific in relation to the Assemblyman's question.
Human Rights Act 1998
8.
Ms Lewsley
asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what preparation has been made by the devolved Administration for implementation of the Human Rights Act 1998 following its introduction on 2 October 2000.
The First Minister:
The Northern Ireland Administration has been required to act in accordance with the Human Rights Act 1998 since the original date of devolution. Steps have been taken to prepare for implementation on a range of matters.
Ms Lewsley:
What areas of vulnerability have been identified, particularly in the area of planning?
The First Minister:
We have endeavoured to examine a range of matters. We have asked all Departments to review their legislation, policies and procedures and organisational arrangements. Where existing arrangements are shown to be vulnerable to challenge we are considering making changes. There are areas of concern on a range of planning matters. In a recent Scottish case, County Properties Limited successfully challenged the planning procedures of the Scottish Ministers under Article 6 of the Convention. However, it should be noted that the case is the subject of an appeal.
Notwithstanding that, there are a number of areas in the broad planning field, including things like compulsory acquisition, where there are areas of concern. We are looking at those areas and consulting with the Administrations in Wales and in Scotland, and with Whitehall, because some of the problems are common and the legislation is similar in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is desirable to have a common response to the problems that have been identified.
Mr C Wilson:
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would it be appropriate for the First Minister, at an early opportunity, to correct a misleading statement he made to the House on Monday 9 October, when he said that he, or his office, had not contacted the office of Mr Sandy Berger? I wonder if he would like to -
Mr Speaker:
Order. First of all, Members should be more careful about raising questions regarding Ministers misleading the House, and ought to read their Erskine May in that regard. It would be even better if they were in the Chamber and able to hear the matter being addressed. I am afraid that the Member asking the question was obviously not in the Chamber when a personal statement on the matter was made earlier today. I recommend that he read not only Erskine May but also today's Hansard when it is published tomorrow.
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClelland] in the Chair)
Regional development
Planning: Roads
1.
Mr S Wilson
asked the Minister for Regional Development if a time limit is placed on the Roads Service to respond to requests for views on planning applications being considered by the Department of the Environment Planning Service.
The Minister for Regional Development (Mr Campbell): Under the current service-level agreement with the Department of Environment Planning Service, my Department's Roads Service aims to achieve a 90% return of consultation forms relating to minor planning applications within 15 working days of receipt from the Planning Service; a 75% return of consultation forms relating to major planning applications within 15 working days of receipt from the Planning Service; and a 90% return of consultation forms relating to major planning applications within 30 working days of receipt from the Planning Service.
Mr S Wilson:
Can the Minister tell us whether those targets are being met? The impression that one gets from the present planning system for Belfast is that those targets are missed by a wide margin. Within the past two weeks, we have found that one third of the planning applications due to come to Belfast City Council could not be brought forward because the Roads Service had not responded. One application relating to East Belfast has been delayed for more than three months, in the absence of a Roads Service response.
Mr Campbell:
In the first quarter of the year, for target number one, the Roads Service's success rate was 76%, compared with the target figure of 90% . Target number two was 75%, against which the service achieved 73%. For target three, where the target was 90% of major applications within 30 days, the performance has been 86%. Roads Service performance has not reached the levels that I would have liked, in relation to target one. Performance in the eastern division falls below the target. The hon Member for East Belfast referred to the Belfast area, which, of course, falls within the eastern division.
A number of factors have contributed to the performance. First, there has been a significant increase in planning applications, including a 17% increase in the past three years. In 1999-2000, there were 15,000 planning applications from the Department of the Environment Planning Service. Three thousand eight hundred of those were for the eastern division, which includes Belfast City Council area. Additional staff have been deployed in the eastern division to address the current backlog of work.
The application of the new design guide for roads in new developments has slowed the private streets determination process, leading to an additional backlog. My predecessor established a joint Planning Service and Roads Service working group to examine the issues and identify how the planning process can be improved. That working group is due to report to the joint Planning Service directorate before the end of this calendar year. I am hopeful that that will speed up the clearing of the backlog.
Transport
2.
Mr Leslie
asked the Minister for Regional Development if he will detail the number of meetings he has had with Ministers with responsibility for transport at national, Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly level.
7.
Mr Byrne
asked the Minister for Regional Development if he will detail what proposals he will submit to the North/South Ministerial Council, particularly in relation to transport.
Mr Campbell:
With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 2 and 7 together.
I was due to meet Lord Macdonald, the Minister for Transport, in Manchester last month. Unfortunately, although I was present, he was unable to fulfill the engagement, due to pressures on the Government that arose from the fuel cost protests. I have arranged a meeting with the Scottish Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, which is scheduled to take place next month. It is, in fact, a rescheduled meeting. My predecessor, Mr Peter Robinson, had arranged the meeting, but it was postponed, due to the suspension of the Assembly.
In addition to that, my officials have regular contact with their counterparts in the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions as well as with those in the Scottish Executive. In fulfilling my responsibilities as Minister for Regional Development, I have no plans to submit proposals to the North/South Ministerial Council.
That is without prejudice to ensuring that my Department co-operates fully, on an ongoing basis, on matters of mutual interest between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, especially in relation to roads, public transport, spatial development and water and sewerage.
Mr Leslie:
Can the Minister tell us if it is his intention to attend meetings of the British/Irish Council, where transport matters relating to all four constituent parts of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland are likely to be on the agenda in due course? Secondly, does he consider that to be the best forum for dealing with those cross-cutting themes?
Mr Campbell:
I am, of course, as my predecessor was, content to take the lead in taking forward a sectoral meeting on transport within the context of the British-Irish Council. However, the hon Member should know that the First and Deputy First Ministers, for their own reasons, decided to assume responsibility for representing the Executive Committee on transport matters at the British-Irish Council.
Mr Byrne:
I welcome the Minister's statement regarding his willingness to get involved in developing the transport theme with the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. Coming from west Tyrone, where we have major problems in relation to roads, I encourage the Minister to get involved in putting forward proposals on transport - particularly road transport - with his Department and in collaboration with the Republic of Ireland. Roads in the border areas have never really had adequate funding.
Mr Campbell:
I will repeat what I have already said: my Department co-operates fully, on an ongoing basis, on matters of mutual interest between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, especially in relation to roads, public transport, spatial development, water and sewerage. That is the case and will continue to be the case.
Mr Paisley Jnr:
Does the Minister agree that it takes some nerve for an Ulster Unionist to ask this question, given that it was the First Minister who did his best to block discussions and consultation between him and his Welsh and Scottish counterparts?
Mr Campbell:
As I said, it was the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister who, for their own reasons, took responsibility for representing the Executive Committee on transport matters at the British-Irish Council. That was a matter for them; they took that decision. I agree with the hon Member that it seems somewhat churlish that I am now asked about my responsibility for a matter that has already been dealt with by the leader of Mr Leslie's party - the First Minister, Mr Trimble.
Mr McElduff:
Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. An bhféadann an t Aire a insint domh an raibh cruinniú ar bith aige go dtí seo leis an Aire Comhshaoil sna sé chondae is fiche faoi chúrsaí taistil, nó an bhfuil sé de rún aige seo a dhéanamh roimh i bhfad?
Will the Minister detail any meetings he has had with Minister Noel Dempsey, who has responsibility for transport in the rest of Ireland? Is it his intention to have any such meetings in the near future?
Mr Campbell:
I cannot pretend that I understood the first part of the question. I have already said that while carrying out and fulfilling my responsibilities as Minister for Regional Development, I have no plans to submit proposals to the North/South Ministerial Council. However, that will not preclude ongoing and continuous co-operation that my Department has, and will continue to have, with its counterpart in the Irish Republic on matters such as transport and roads.
3.15 pm
Mr O'Connor:
I am glad to hear that the Minister is going to meet his Scottish counterpart next month. Will he take into account the needs of my constituency in East Antrim? Will he address those needs jointly with the Scottish Minister to try and upgrade our roads, the A8 (the Larne line) and the A75 on the Scottish side, as part of the trans-European network? That upgrade is critical to the people of Northern Ireland who are trying to get their goods to the UK, which is our major trading partner.
Mr Campbell:
I have responded previously to another Member from East Antrim on that precise point. I am very conscious of the roads Mr O'Connor referred to in East Antrim and the A75. When I meet Sarah Boyack I intend to raise that issue and other relevant issues pertaining to the Northern Ireland travelling public as they progress through Scotland, particularly by the Belfast/Larne to Stranraer sea route.
Traffic Congestion (Greater Belfast)
3.
Mr Beggs
asked the Minister for Regional Development if he will outline what plans he has to develop further facilities to reduce traffic congestion in the Greater Belfast area.
Mr Campbell:
My Department aims to tackle the growing problem of traffic congestion in the Greater Belfast area by pursuing an integrated transport strategy which will make the best use of the existing road network and develop and encourage the use of alternative modes of transport. In this context, the Department is currently progressing a number of road improvement schemes, together with measures in support of public transport, cycling and walking. At a strategic level, work on the preparation of a 10-year Belfast transport plan is due to commence early next year.
However, I must reiterate my previous concerns about the current level of funding for both road and public transport. The current level will not overcome existing deficiencies in the transport infrastructure and deal with future growth in traffic. Increasing congestion is inevitable unless significant new investment is made.
Mr Beggs:
Does the Minister agree that park-and-ride facilities will play a vital role in preventing gridlock in Belfast over the next decade, and can he advise my constituents when they can expect to learn of additional park-and-ride facilities in East Antrim?
Furthermore, is the Minister aware that this morning's commuter train from Larne had to be taken out of service because of brake failure? Last week, a similar train had to be removed from service because of numerous door lock faults. When can we expect to hear of an upgrading of our rolling stock and the removal of the things that prevent people from using the rail network?
Mr Campbell:
The Member raises a number of matters, some of which are specific to his constituency. I will respond in writing to him, particularly in relation to the incident which he says occurred today. I will refer to a number of measures that we are currently progressing.
A number of quality bus corridors will be introduced on the main radial routes into Belfast. There are proposals for bus-related park-and-ride facilities. There is also the introduction of bus priority facilities at traffic signals throughout Belfast. There is also the implementation of measures to encourage walking and cycling. Those measures are to be introduced in the Greater Belfast area. I will respond to the Member in writing on the specific comments that he has made in relation to the East Antrim constituency.
Mr Dallat:
With regard to traffic congestion, which extends beyond the Greater Belfast area these days, can the Minister assure us that there is no truth in the rumour that there has been a slippage on the Toome bypass project, and that it will proceed as planned?
Mr Campbell:
The Toome bypass, which the Member will be familiar with, was progressed by my predecessor. Work is continuing on that bypass scheme, and when I have precise and specific details about its scheduling I will write to the hon Member to inform him of that.
Dr Birnie:
Given that one of the key areas of congestion is the so-called southern approaches to the city, does the Minister agree that development of the so-called quality bus route on the Ormeau and Saintfield Roads offers a superior option to forcing an entirely new road through what is one of our few areas of green field in the city, Belvoir Forest?
Mr Campbell:
Traffic congestion is not, of course, the exclusive preserve of Belfast, but it is particularly acute in the Greater Belfast area. It results from several factors - an increasing number of vehicles on the roads and an increase in usage of those vehicles. In the morning peak hour there are something like 32,000 cars travelling to work in the Greater Belfast area. Each week there are 500 additional licensed vehicles on the roads in Northern Ireland.
Large housing developments such as those constructed and planned in the Saintfield Road and Carryduff area - the southern approaches mentioned by Dr Birnie - also generate additional traffic. That tells us that there will be ongoing traffic congestion. Dr Birnie also referred to the quality bus route and a number of other issues that my Department is determined to proceed with. They are not the only answer to increasing congestion, but they are an answer.
Mr Shannon:
What plans are afoot to bring forward the much-delayed Comber bypass scheme? Comber is within the Greater Belfast area, and traffic congestion there has been particularly bad.
Mr Campbell:
This is obviously a scheme in which the Member has an interest. My answer will be similar to that given to Mr Dallat in relation to the Toome bypass. I will write to the Member shortly with the specific details of where that scheme stands at the moment and the likelihood of its progression in the near future.
Mr Neeson:
What plans does the Minister have to end the serious congestion on the A2 Carrickfergus- Belfast road? This morning it took me three quarters of an hour to travel two miles. Furthermore, can he assure me and my constituents that the scheme, which has been to the fore for around 15 years, will be carried out as quickly as possible?
Mr Campbell:
Mr Neeson raises an issue which both he and others in the Carrickfergus and East Antrim area have raised on a number of occasions in the past. This scheme is being considered by the Department for Regional Development, but is not at the point of being processed immediately. The Belfast transport plan will co-ordinate the implementation of transport initiatives within the Belfast area over a 10-year period, and the A2 will certainly feature in that plan. The plan will concentrate on proposals for the city centre and transport corridors, of which the A2 is one, and I hope there will be some progress on that in the immediate future in the Belfast transport plan.
Water Service: Pipe-Laying
4.
Mr Carrick
asked the Minister for Regional Development if he will outline the position of landowners who permit pipe-laying on their property in the event of future privatisation of the Water Service.
Mr Campbell:
In accordance with Mr Peter Robinson's statement on 15 December 1999, there are no plans to privatise Water Service. Landowners will continue to be paid for the loss of land use during the laying of new mains, but will not receive ongoing payments to cover the presence of the main on their land.
Mr Carrick:
I thank the Minister for his reply and note the reaffirmation that there will be no privatisation of Water Service. However, is he aware that the introduction of public/private finance into the future infrastructure investment will, by its commercial content, change the financial basis of water provision? What steps will he take to safeguard the interests of the many landowners and farmers who will be affected by such a commercial operation which, at least for the private investor, has a clear profit-based motive? Will he also compensate the landowners and farmers affected?
Mr Campbell:
Privatised water companies in England and Wales have greater flexibility in their negotiations with landowners. They do, on occasion, agree to pay rent. This practice is, however, avoided where possible, due to the long-term costs, which include administration. I am aware of the public's concern about back-door privatisation, and I take the hon Member's views very seriously. If, as a result, issues arise which directly impinge upon the Water Service, I will not only write to the Member, but alert the House as well.
Mr McCarthy:
Does the Minister plan to introduce legislation to enable the Water Service to provide a waterline where landowners refuse permission?
Mr Campbell:
I do not.
Waste-Water and Sewage
Treatment (North Down)
5.
Mrs E Bell
asked the Minister for Regional Development if he will make a statement on a site for the North Down waste-water treatment works.
9.
Mr McFarland
asked the Minister for Regional Development if he will outline his plans and timescale for the improvement of sewage treatment in the North Down area, and if he will make a statement.
Mr Campbell:
I will take questions 5 and 9 together.
The Department's Water Service commissioned consultants to carry out detailed environmental assessments of the two possible sites that were identified in an earlier appraisal study which was published in March 1999. These environmental assessments have been completed and submitted to the Water Service for consideration.
An additional assessment of the marine outfall pipe and storm-water management in the Bangor sewerage system is nearing completion. I visited Ards Borough Council in August to hear at first hand the views of councillors on the siting of the proposed new works. I received a report from the consultants who had been commissioned by the council. I was satisfied with the overall presentation of the report and have requested my Water Service officials to have follow-up meetings with the consultants to explore those recommendations fully. These meeting will take place in the near future.
I wish to consider all the issues very carefully, as I am aware of the concerns expressed by public representatives and members of the public about the siting of the proposed waste-water treatment works. I hope to be in a position to make an announcement on the siting of the works before the end of the year.
Mrs E Bell:
I thank the Minister for his answer, though I have a definite feeling of déjà vu. We have been discussing this question for the last four or five years in north Down and Ards. The Minister must be aware that his predecessor made a very similar comment some months ago. A decision must be reached as soon as possible, and if it is reached by the end of the year, I will be very pleased. Action on these reports must be taken as quickly as possible. People are being told every two or three months that the answer is coming, yet they do not get it.
Mr Campbell:
I put great store on consultation with public representatives and the public at large. When I came into office I was faced with this decision as well as a request from the corporate body, Ards Borough Council, to meet me to discuss the waste-water treatment works.
3.30 pm
It is important to have consultation and to ensure that the public knows the consequences of every decision. I therefore assured Ards Borough Council that my officials will liaise with its consultants on this issue. That meeting will take place within the next two and a half weeks, and I hope that I will be in a position to take a decision within the next 10 or 12 weeks.
Mr McFarland:
Does the Minister believe that it is right to pump raw sewage into Belfast Lough at the lovely area of Helen's Bay? What steps will he take to treat this sewage so that people can swim in the bay?
Mr Campbell:
I was not aware that the situation is so stark, but I will respond to the Member once my officials have checked the position at Helen's Bay.
We want to have modern, state-of-the-art waste-water treatment works in a number of areas in Northern Ireland, and almost everybody I speak to expresses support for these. The problem arises when a proposed location for such treatment works is identified. Everyone wants them, but not in their backyards. The difficulty is in reaching a satisfactory conclusion by a process that is seen universally to be independent and equitable. That is what north Down needs and what I hope the people who live in and frequent Helen's Bay will get when this process has been concluded in 10 or 12 weeks' time.
Ms Morrice:
Will the Minister guarantee increased investment in these sewage works to reduce any detrimental impact of traffic, noise and smell, and guarantee the use of best practice examples from abroad, where works are sited underground or offshore, and where their impact is minimal?
Secondly, has he considered, or will he consider, the use of alternative, environmentally friendly engineering techniques, such as reed beds, for sewage works?