Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 25 September 2000 (continued)
Epilepsy
2.
Mr Kennedy
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what measures she intends to implement to ensure that the treatment of intractable epilepsy in Northern Ireland, using the proven concept of vagal nerve stimulation, is allowed adequate financial resources and staffing, and if she will make a statement.
Ms de Brún:
Tugtar an chóireáil seo in Ospidéal Ríoga Victoria amháin. Ionchlannaítear gléas leis an néaróg vagach a spreagadh. Cuireann na boird roinnt othar go Baile Átha Cliath le haghaidh cóireála. Ceapadh an 5ú néarmháinlia comhairleach chuig an Ospidéal Ríoga i mí Bealtaine, ach tá líon na ndaoine ar na liostaí feithimh don chóireáil seo doghlactha ard. Tá mé i ndiaidh a iarraidh ar fheidhmeannaigh an scéal a fhiosrú agus scríobhfaidh mé chuig an Teachta faoin ábhar a luaithe is féidir.
This treatment, which includes and involves the implant of a stimulator of the vagal nerve, is carried out only at the Royal Victoria Hospital. Boards also send some patients to Dublin for treatment. A fifth consultant neurosurgeon was appointed to the Royal in May, but waiting lists for this treatment remain unacceptably high. I have asked officials to investigate this situation, and I will write to the Member about this matter as soon as possible. I thank the Member for his question.
Mr Kennedy:
I am grateful for the answer. I did not understand all of it, particularly the early part. Evidently "epilepsy" is not a word that translates into Irish.
I implore the Minister to extend this treatment beyond the Royal Victoria Hospital to other centres of excellence, particularly where that will assist constituents in the Newry and Armagh areas. I ask that urgent consideration be given to ensure proper staffing and funding.
Ms de Brún:
While it is clear that some of the difficulties that have arisen, such as ensuring that people are not waiting lengthy amounts of time for this treatment, have been addressed, I wish to ensure that officials investigate fully the reasons for the unacceptable length of time that patients have been waiting for this procedure. When I receive the report, I shall consider what further action needs to be taken.
Acute Hospitals Review
3.
Mrs Carson
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail her assessment of the need for equality in appointing members to the Acute Hospitals Review Group.
10.
Dr Birnie
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to explain why she appointed to the Acute Hospitals Review Group two members who were involved at management level in the DHSS and the Southern Health and Social Services Board and one member who was previously involved in local government.
11.
Rev Robert Coulter
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety which individuals and groups she consulted in regard to the appointment of the Acute Hospitals Review Group.
16.
Mr Leslie
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if she will make a statement on the involvement of the Government of the Republic of Ireland in the review of acute hospital services in Northern Ireland.
20.
Mr McClarty
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if she will make a statement on appointments from the Republic of Ireland to the Acute Hospitals Review Group.
Ms de Brún:
Le do chead, a LeasCheann Comhairle, tógfaidh mé ceisteanna 3, 10, 11, 16 agus 20 le chéile ós rud é go mbaineann siad uilig leis an athbhreithniú ar ospidéil ghéarmhíochaine. Tá sé barrthábhachtach don phobal uilig go soláthrófar seirbhísí sábháilte agus éifeachtacha géarmhíochaine ospidéil; seirbhísí ar féidir teacht go réidh orthu. Tá sé sin ar cheann de na tosaíochtaí is mó atá agam féin. Ba mhaith liom gluaiseacht chun tosaigh a ghaiste is féidir, agus is é sin an chúis ar choimisiúnaigh mé athbhreithniú gairid neamhspleách ar gach ní a mbaineann leis an ábhar seo.
With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I shall take questions: 3,10, 11, 16 and 20 together since they all relate to the review of acute hospitals and the make-up of the review group.
The provision of safe, effective and accessible acute hospital services is of vital importance to the whole community. It is one of my top priorities. I want to move forward as quickly as possible and that is why I have commissioned a short, independent review of all of the issues involved.
Roghnaigh mé baill an ghrúpa athbhreithnithe ar bhonn go bhféadfadh siad a chur leis an obair thábhachtach seo agus ar an bhonn sin amháin. Tá mé sásta go bhfuil an t-eolas agus an oilteacht atá riachtanach ag na baill a roghnaigh mé agus go mbeidh siad in ann an tsainchomhairle oibiachtúil atá uaim a thabhairt domh. Tá mé sásta fosta go bhfuil gach ball abálta tuairimí gach earnáil den phobal a chur in iúl, mar atá déanta ag a lán acu cheana agus mar a dhéanfaidh siad go leanúnach feasta i rith a saoil oibre. Creidim go mbeidh baill an ghrúpa eolach go maith ar na ceisteanna difriúla atá ag cur isteach ar dhaoine taobh thiar agus taobh thoir den Bhanna, mar shampla, nó ar cheisteanna a bhaineann le pobal uirbeach agus le pobal tuaithe, nó ar an dearcadh ghairmiúil agus ar an dearcadh thuata maidir le seirbhísí ospidéil.
Maidir le ceist an Uasail Birnie, tá súil agam nach bhfuiltear ag rá go bhfuil amhras ann maidir le hionracas, eolas nó oilteacht duine ar bith den ghrúpa. Má tá tuairim ag an Teachta go bhfuil amhras ann maidir le duine ar bith den ghrúpa, tá súil agam go gcuirfidh sé an t-eolas sin faoi mo bhráid.
3.15 pm
I selected members for the review group solely on the basis of the contribution they would be able to make to this important work. I am satisfied that the members I have chosen will have the necessary knowledge and expertise and that they will be able to provide me with the objective expert advice I need.
I am also satisfied that they can reflect the views of all sections of the community, as many of them have done, or are continuing to do, in their working lives. The group will be very much aware of the different issues affecting people east and west of the Bann - for example, issues relevant to urban and rural communities, and the professional and lay perspective on hospital services.
In the case of Mr Birnie's question, I hope there is no suggestion that there is any question mark over the integrity, knowledge or expertise of any individual on the group. If the Member is suggesting that there is such a question mark, I hope he will bring it to my attention. I assure the Member that my door is always open.
As to the members from the South, both have much relevant expertise in hospital services, which will be of benefit to the group. Mr O'Shea was involved in similar work reviewing acute hospital services in the North Eastern Health Board. His experience there, where many similar problems exist, will be invaluable to the group. Mrs Ryan has worked in senior positions in hospitals, both North and South, and she will bring a wealth of experience to the group. The Irish Government has not been involved in the review.
Mrs Carson:
I heard some of the reply but I did not understand other bits. It seemed to go on longer in the language which I cannot understand. Does the Minister agree that she received a detailed letter from me, dated 10 August, setting out a number of my concerns about this review group? To date, I have only received two acknowledgements, neither of which addressed any of my queries or concerns. Is the Minister satisfied that this is a competent way to deal with replies to an elected Member of the Assembly? I received acknowledgements on 29 August and 12 September. I do not feel that that is satisfactory. Is the Minister satisfied that, as well as professional competency, there is equal representation of members of the different religious and political communities in Northern Ireland and a good representation of women? Is she satisfied that there has been equality proofing?
Ms de Brún:
I did indeed receive a very detailed letter from the Member.
Mrs Carson:
There was no answer.
Ms de Brún:
It has gone to the Member today. It was a very detailed letter, and it has received a very detailed answer, just as the Questions here today have received very detailed answers. On representation, I am absolutely satisfied that the people I have chosen reflect the views of all sections of the community. Many of them have done so, or continue to do so, in their working lives. All those on the review group, who are from here, have worked in situations where they reflect the views of the entire community, and where they are seen to be working for all sections of it.
To date, there has been no question mark over any of the members or their ability to work for the whole community. The question arises as to whether this Question is, in fact, directed at the make-up of the review group and the people involved, or is a way of directing yet another question at a Minister with a different political viewpoint. The people involved can and will represent all sections of the community. Had I found, when looking at the review group's make-up, that those debating acute hospital services all came from east or west of the Bann, or that the faultlines followed the division between lay and professional, or between nurse or general practitioner and consultant, I would indeed have been worried that it might not have been able to do the work I had asked of it.
I believe that the representation is sufficient -
Mrs Carson:
Mr Deputy Speaker, I must protest that we have not had an answer to my question.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Your written correspondence has received a reply, and I do not envisage any further profit from continuing to pursue the matter.
Mrs Carson:
Can I withdraw my question because it is not being answered?
Dr Birnie:
I thank the Minister for her part answer to my question but I still have to ask how she proposes to handle the question of conflicts of interest of members of the review group, in light of their previous positions?
Also, why does the group include somebody who does have clear experience of the set-up in the Republic of Ireland? It would have been more natural to include someone who has experience of the set-up in Great Britain, in light of the current UK-wide NHS national plan, which will have a huge bearing on what happens to acute services within Northern Ireland.
Ms de Brún:
I find it difficult to understand why Mr Birnie wants to balance out someone who has experience of the set-up in the South of Ireland, but does not want somebody who previously worked for the Department and clearly has a knowledge of the set-up here.
This does not take away from his question of why I included someone who was involved in the Department of Health and Social Services. One of the reasons is that they do have a detailed knowledge of the situation here. They also have a detailed knowledge of other work and are highly respected within the community, as a former ombudsman, and in other positions. I was delighted that Maurice Hayes accepted my invitation to chair the group and I am confident that his leadership will command widespread respect. He will bring an informed and independent eye, as well as a rigorous approach to the important work.
The health and social service board is not represented, but Fionnuala Cook, as you will know, is a member of the Eastern Health and Social Services Council, who represent service users in the area. This relates, as I answered previously, to the different balance between those who have professional experience within the system and lay people who can bring the views of service users. Nobody is on the group to represent a particular group.
Therefore, on the questions you ask about each person involved, two are former ombudsmen and, presuming you are talking about Mrs Fionnuala Cook, one works for the Eastern Health and Social Services Council and not the Eastern Health and Social Services Board.
Mr Leslie:
I thank the Minister for her acknowledgement of my question in her answer. I note her assertion that the Government of the Irish Republic is not involved in this review. If the Minister has tasked Dr Maurice Hayes specifically with looking at cross-border co-operation on acute hospital provision, how can this be satisfactorily conducted without some reference to the Department of Health in the Government of the Republic of Ireland?
Ms de Brún:
There is already a great deal of cross-border co-operation in hospital services. If we are reviewing acute hospital services, it would be useful for the group to look at and build on that existing work, particularly on the work of Co-operation and Working Together, which was established in 1992. A lot of this work goes on in the boards, between the boards and through the Co-operation and Working Together initiative. That initiative, and the work building on that, will feed either into the acute hospital review, the North/South Ministerial Council or into reports between the two Governments, if needs be. The acute hospital review will build on that work.
Causeway Hospital: Beds
4.
Mr Kane
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to quantify the provision of community care that is likely to be required as a result of the 10 fewer surgical and four fewer medical beds in the new Causeway Health and Social Services Trust Hospital in Coleraine.
Ms de Brún:
Níl líon na leapacha míochaine á laghdú in Ospidéal nua an Chlocháin, Cúil Raithin. Ach beidh athrú ann sna socruithe maidir le leapacha máinliachta. Méadófar líon na leapacha lae máinliachta óna 12 mar atá anois ann go dtí 22. Dá thairbhe seo, beidh sé ar chumas an ospidéil cóireáil lae máinliachta a thabhairt do 50 othar sa lá. Ar an ábhar sin, beidh 15 leapacha máinliachta níos lú de dhíth agus ba chóir go mbeadh seirbhís níos éifeachtaí agus níos éifeachtúla á soláthar. Ní bheidh tionchar díreach ag an socrú seo ar sheirbhísí cúraim phobail.
The number of medical beds in the new Causeway Hospital, Coleraine, is not being reduced. That is not accurate. There will be a change in the configuration of surgical beds. The number of day surgery beds will increase from 12 to 22, allowing for 50 surgical procedures a day. That will reduce the need for in-patient surgical beds by 15, and should deliver a more effective and efficient service. This configuration will have no direct impact on the delivery of local community care services.
Mr Kane:
Will the Minister provide a definite date for the opening of the new facility at Coleraine? Uncertainty over this prevails.
Ms de Brún:
I expect the main contract work to be completed in October, and the facility should be open in April 2001.
Primary Care Services
5.
Mr Neeson
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what priority is being given to the development of primary care services.
12.
Mr ONeill
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to indicate what plans there are for the future of the five primary care commissioning pilots established in April 1999, given that funding runs out in April 2001, and if she will make a statement.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Minister, you have a perfect right to speak Irish, but it does take time out of your half hour. Any eliding you can do will be gratefully received.
Ms de Brún:
If I have the right to speak Irish then I also have the time, unless someone provides simultaneous translation.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
You have half an hour, as with all Ministers. If a lot of it is spent speaking Irish, then that is time taken out.
Mr McElduff:
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Standing Orders inform us that we can speak in a language of our choice.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
I am conscious of that, yet there is a courtesy to this House which should be supported by Ministers.
Mr Neeson:
I want an answer.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Yes, he is waiting for his answer.
Ms de Brún:
I will answer the Member's question. I was asked by the Speaker, if I wished to speak in the language of my choice, to make my answers clear in English as well, out of respect to Members. I am doing so. I am showing respect to Members.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
It is a question of time. You have only half an hour.
Ms de Brún:
Le do chead, a LeasCheann Comhairle, tógfaidh mé ceisteanna a 5 agus a 12 le chéile. With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take Questions 5 and 12 together. Tugtar tús áite ar fad d'fhorbairt seirbhísí cúraim phríomhúil. Mar a dúirt mé i mo ráiteas i mí Meithimh, tá an cúram príomhúil ina chuid lárnach dár gcóras iomlán sláinte agus cúraim shóisialta. Má tá seirbhísí áisiúla nua-aimseartha ar féidir teacht go réidh orthu le bheith ar fáil, tá sé barrthábhachtach go mbeidh cúram príomhúil á fhorbairt.
Ba mhaith liom a chinntiú go dtabharfar a sháith airde ar chúram príomhúil, agus tá mé i ndiaidh cuid mhór ama a chaitheamh i rith an tsamhraidh ag plé na ceiste le réimse leathan daoine a bhfuil baint acu leis an tseirbhís a riaradh nó a sholáthar. Tá rún agam cur leis an phlé úsáideach seo, agus foilseoidh mé go luath moltaí ar na socruithe a ghlacfaidh ionad na scéime cisteshealúchais do liachleachtóirí agus na scéimeanna píolótacha a reachtáladh ar feadh dhá bhliain amháin le cúram príomhúil a choimisiúnú. Déanfar comhairliúcháin i dtaobh na moltaí sin.
The development of primary care services has a very high priority indeed. In my statement in June, I said that primary care is an essential part of our whole system of health and social care. Its development is crucial to the provision of accessible, convenient and modern services. I want to make sure that primary care receives the attention that it deserves. Over the summer, I spent a great deal of time in dialogue with a wide range of people involved in the management and delivery of the service.
I intend to build on this useful dialogue, and I shall shortly publish proposals for consultation on arrangements which will replace GP funding and the primary care commissioning pilots, which were established for two years only.
3.30 pm
Mr J Kelly:
On a point of order, a LeasCheann Comhairle.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
The time for this subject is up.
Mr J Kelly:
On a point of order, a LeasCheann Comhairle.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
If you wish, but unless it is something which is included in the Standing Orders I am not prepared to take it, because the time is up.
Mr J Kelly:
It is a point of order, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Were you instructing the Minister not to speak in Irish?
Mr Deputy Speaker:
I did not say that. What I did say - granted, my microphone was not switched on, but I have a fairly audible voice, or so they tell me - was that in the case of questions to relevant Ministers, we are limited to time. I proved that to everyone in the manner in which I dealt with the Minister of Finance and Personnel, when he got through the questions so quickly that we had to adjourn for 15 minutes. A specific time is laid down for questions. If Ms de Brún or any other Minister wishes to speak in another language, that takes up time. It is time, rather than the second language, that is the problem.
Mr J Kelly:
I suggest, a LeasCheann Comhairle, that Irish is not another language, but an indigenous language.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
I am sorry. I am not prepared to argue this - [Interruption]
The time is up. Order. I have made my ruling clear.
Education
New Schools: Criteria
2.
Mr McCarthy:
asked the Minister of Education at what stage the review into criteria for new schools, including integrated school and Irish-medium pupil numbers, will be published.
The Minister of Education (Mr M McGuinness):
Dia daoibh go léir. The purpose of the review is to examine the viability criteria for grant-aid status for new integrated and Irish-medium schools. I hope to be in a position to issue a consultation paper on the proposed changes next month.
Mr McCarthy:
Does the Minister agree that under the current application procedures for integrated schools, people from mixed, or other backgrounds are forced to declare themselves as being either Catholic or Protestant in order to meet the criteria for creating and sustaining integrated schools, and that this approach runs counter to the spirit of integrated education?
Mr M McGuinness:
This issue came up previously in relation to mixed marriages. As far as I am concerned, this is an issue which needs to be examined during the course of the review. Under the Education Reform (NI) Order 1989, integrated schools must provide for the education of Protestant and Roman Catholic pupils. The legislation does not impose specific balance requirements, but it indicates that integrated schools should aim to attract reasonable numbers of Protestant and Roman Catholic pupils. The Department's current arrangements are completely in line with that objective.
Mr McElduff:
Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Tá a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil sé de dhualgas air an Ghaeilge a chur chun tosaigh. The Minister knows that his Department is duty-bound to take resolute action to promote the Irish language -
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Order.
Mr McElduff:
- to promote the Irish language, to encourage and facilitate it. What steps are the Minister and his Department taking to encourage Irish-medium education?
Mr M McGuinness:
I am taking forward a range of measures in the context of the Department's statutory duty to encourage and facilitate Irish-medium education. A new body to promote Irish-medium education, to be known as Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta, was established on 9 August 2000, and it has met on a number of occasions. Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta will undertake a range of tasks, which include the provision of advice to the Department on issues such as the strategic planning of Irish-medium schools and units.
Other tasks include the identification of teacher-training needs, the development of training arrangements for Irish-medium education and fund-raising to assist in the development of the sector, including liasing with the Department about the establishment of a trust fund for Irish-medium education.
The establishment of this body represents, in my view, an important milestone in supporting the further development of the Irish-medium sector. In addition, a trust fund to support the development of Irish-medium schools is being established, and I expect to have arrangements in place for that by the end of October 2000. That fund will be an important source of interim support for developing schools.
Learning Difficulties:
School Leavers' Records
3.
Mr Dallat
asked the Minister of Education to outline the arrangements for reference to learning difficulties in the records which school leavers take into their future careers as they pursue further employment or training opportunities.
Mr M McGuinness:
All pupils have the right to receive documentary evidence of their achievements and accomplishments, both curricular and non-curricular, during their school careers. This is provided in the form of a summative record of achievement that must include certain specified information. However, there is no requirement that information about learning difficulties be included in a pupil's summative record of achievement.
Mr Dallat:
Is the Minister aware that training organisations recently gave evidence to the Committee of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, which indicated that there are serious problems with identifying the special needs of the unemployed? Does he agree that there is an urgent need to develop a joined-up approach to education and training so that social inclusion and life-long learning become a reality for all children, especially those who have been unfortunate enough to leave school with serious literacy and numeracy problems?
Mr M McGuinness:
Part of this question relates to the jurisdiction of Dr Farren, the Minister of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
It is still a very important question.
Mr M McGuinness:
Absolutely - I am aware of the point which has been raised.
While there are restrictions on the disclosure of statements of special educational needs, education and library boards can provide copies of statements to colleges with the consent of young people or their parents. Board educational psychologists can also provide up-to-date psychological assessments on young people with special educational needs when requested to do so by colleges. However, there are no formal arrangements for statements to be disclosed to potential employers, although the young person or the parents could choose to supply a copy.
The careers advisory service of the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment is obliged to provide careers advice to young people, with statements of special education needs from age 14 upward. Young people in special schools for pupils with moderate learning difficulties sample courses at local colleges of further education at the age of 15 to assist their choice on leaving school at the end of that year. Those in special schools for pupils with severe learning difficulties attend similar courses at the age of 18.
In addition, recent projects set up by a health services trust and by (MENCAP) have enabled some young people with severe learning difficulties to gain work experience. Several education and library boards have made arrangements to enable that work to continue.
School Classrooms: Arson
5.
Mr Ford
asked the Minister of Education how many classrooms, whether temporary or permanent, were destroyed by arson over the summer holiday period and how many of these had still not been replaced by the start of the new school term.
Mr M McGuinness:
What happened to question 4?
Mr Deputy Speaker:
The Member has not turned up.
Mr M McGuinness:
There were 14 classrooms damaged in arson attacks over the summer holidays and all of those, except for five severely damaged classrooms at one school, were repaired or replaced by the start of the new school year.
Mr Ford:
I thank the Minister for his reply and for his full letter in reponse to the concerns that I expressed about the effects on one school in my constituency - St Joseph's Primary School in Crumlin. Is it not incumbent on his Department to put in place a plan to co-ordinate the efforts of the board, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE) to deal with this eventuality, should a major destruction of property occur in the future, so that children do not lose out on education, as some have so far this term?
Mr M McGuinness:
We have had a very difficult few months, as Members know. During the summer, nine schools were damaged in arson attacks and 23 schools were attacked in total. It would cost about £400,000 to renovate these schools, and my Department has responsibility for that. There was a particular difficulty with St Joseph's Primary School in Crumlin. This school was detrimentally affected by the crisis that had developed elsewhere.
Therefore, the Member's point is reasonable. It is incumbent upon all of us to ensure that we are properly prepared to deal with whatever crisis we have to meet. As I have said on numerous occasions, I regard schools to be as sacred as churches and I hope that those responsible for the damage to schools, churches and Orange halls desist as a matter of urgency. It is hoped that this type of behaviour will not be repeated next year.
We are living in difficult times and we have a responsibility to have contingency plans to deal with any emergency. My hope is that those responsible for burning these establishments will stop and recognise that the way forward is for everybody to live in peace with one another.
Mr O'Connor:
Does the Minister agree that those who call others out on to the streets to wind tensions up over the summer months are responsible for the likes of the £400,000 that he mentioned? Does he also agree that the education of children is suffering because of their irresponsible actions?
Mr M McGuinness:
Given that we are living through a new situation, it is vital that elected representatives - indeed, everybody in society - recognise that they should not be involved in anything that might create the potential for further difficulties on the streets. Elected representatives can take a lead, and they have a responsibility to ensure that they lead by example and show that the community is capable of living and working together.
It is hoped that when people see that happening - and particularly when they see the contribution made by the Assembly - they will recognise that the way forward is for all of us to co-operate with one another and to use whatever abilities and talents we have to lessen tensions on the streets.
The difficulty for the Department of Education is that the attacks on schools have a detrimental effect on the education of the young people who go to those schools. During the summer, I saw classrooms that had been set aside for children with learning difficulties, burned to the ground. This was a desperate sight. These classrooms were closed for different lengths of time, and the children had nowhere to go. In the school on Slate Street in Belfast the work will not be completed until Christmas, so children in these areas are affected when schools are damaged.
People should use their talents and abilities to promote harmony on the streets and do nothing to encourage those who might wish to attack churches, schools or Orange halls.
3.45 pm
Mr Hussey:
Regarding damage to schools, the Minister will be well aware of the damage caused by a bomb to the school that I used to teach in at Castlederg. However, he will also be well aware of the ongoing damage of Strabane Grammar School. In the annual report this year, the headmaster had this disappointing statement to make:
"Repair work is a cosmetic exercise and of short-term benefit."
Is it the intention of the Minister, via curtailment of capital investment in the controlled sector in Strabane, to decommission the infrastructure of grammar school provision and thus render the current transfer scheme inoperable ahead of the Gallagher Report?
Mr M McGuinness:
Obviously, I am concerned about damage to all schools. People will be aware that I intend to publish the research into post-primary education on Thursday 28 September. Many people are looking forward to having access to that.
On the issues raised by Mr Hussey, it is very important to point out that this research does not make any recommendations. Its whole purpose is to provide an objective report on the effects of selection on pupils, schools, teachers, parents and society as a basis for an informed debate on the issues. The aim is to develop post-primary education arrangements which best meet the needs of pupils, parents and society. All pupils should be given the opportunity to reach their full potential, and this means maintaining and enhancing existing high standards and raising standards where they are low.
Proposals for change will emerge following careful consideration of the views expressed during public debate. In these discussions I want the focus to be on quality educational outcomes for all children rather than simply on structures. I take this opportunity to let people know that a short research briefing, summarising the key findings, will be circulated to all schools, and other interested parties, along with the more detailed main report. A further document, containing all the individual research reports - and there are some 23 of them- has also been produced, and it will be circulated to our main education partners, teachers' unions and political parties. Each Assembly Member will receive a copy of the briefing and main report. Copies of the research documents will also be available in all branch libraries.
In addition, copies of the research briefing and main report will be provided by the Department on request. All the research documents will be posted on the Department's Internet site from 28 September and may be copied for use.
North/South Ministerial Council:
Sectoral Meetings (Education)
6.
Mr Kennedy
asked the Minister of Education when he will fulfil the commitment he gave to the Assembly on 11 September 2000 to establish a mechanism to inform, in advance, the Education Committee of the issues to be discussed at North/South Ministerial Council sectoral meetings.
Mr M McGuinness:
I did not give the Assembly any commitment to establishing a mechanism to inform the Education Committee of the issues to be discussed before a North/South Ministerial Council meeting takes place. I had no need to give such a commitment because such a mechanism already exists.
All Assembly Members are informed in advance of the date and place of the meeting, the names of the Ministers nominated by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and of the issues under discussion by way of a copy of the agenda for the meeting. Thus, members of the Education Committee are fully aware in advance of the issues that will be discussed at each council meeting.
However, I recognise that the Education Committee has a legitimate interest in the matters under discussion at the sectoral council. For procedural reasons, I cannot provide the Committee with the papers that are put before the Executive Committee and the North/South Ministerial Council. However, in future I will provide the Chairman of the Education Committee with a summary of the matters considered at each meeting of the council.
I intend to make this information available to the Committee as soon as possible after I have made a statement to the Assembly following each council meeting.
Mr Kennedy:
Let me draw the Minister's attention to his own words as recorded in Hansard of September 11, page 32:
"I have listened carefully to what the Chairman of the Education Committee and Mrs Bell have said, and they have made an important point. I have no difficulty whatsoever about establishing a mechanism to ensure that the Committee is made aware of the outcome of these meetings before we issue what some would consider to be a bland statement about them."
I understand that we already receive the agendas of North/South sectoral meetings, but the Minister said clearly in his earlier answer that he was prepared to detail to the Education Committee the items discussed at such meetings - not the advance agenda - before making his Assembly statement. Either he will want to apologise to the Assembly for misleading it, or he will want to go back to the Executive Committee. It would serve this Assembly well if the Executive Committee, as a rule, supplied the various Committees in advance with the details of the North/South sectoral meetings before making statements in the Assembly.
Mr M McGuinness:
I apologise for the error on 11 September. Certain procedural constraints are placed upon me and, indeed, on all the other members of the Executive Committee involved in the North/South Ministerial Council, in relation to when we can provide information to the Committees, and the nature and extent of that information. North/South Ministerial Council meetings, whether plenary or sectoral, are meetings between Ministers of the Executive Committee and of the Irish Government. Ministers attending council meetings are nominated by the First and Deputy First Ministers.
Papers for council meetings are Executive Committee papers, and are restricted under the ministerial code. In other words, the papers themselves cannot be published or made more widely available to Members. The general content of the papers could be conveyed to the Education Committee, but this could only happen after a council meeting had taken place and I had reported back to the Executive Committee and the Assembly in accordance with proper procedures. These procedures apply to all Ministers in relation to meetings with the North/South Ministerial Council.
I have already said that I intend to provide the Education Committee with a summary of the issues under discussion when I make my statement to the Assembly. I have no difficulty with that.
Integrated Schools: Place Applications
7.
Mr Neeson
asked the Minister of Education how many children were denied places at integrated schools this year on first application (that is, before tribunal).
Mr M McGuinness:
The numbers of unsuccessful first applications to integrated schools for admission in September 2000 were 77 for primary school and 570 for secondary school.
Mr Neeson:
I thank the Minister for his answer. It shows clearly that the demand for integrated education in Northern Ireland, I am pleased to say, is very much on the increase. What plans do he and his Department have to increase the number of places at both primary and post-primary integrated education schools in Northern Ireland?
Mr M McGuinness:
First , it is important to say that the figures are interesting. They show an increase on last year. I was very struck by that myself. That clearly shows an increase in interest, particularly from parents who express a first preference. I have not set specific targets for the development of the integrated schools sector. The Department's policy is to respond to parental demand. For example, Ulidia Integrated College has been awarded full grant-aided status from September of this year.
As everybody knows, I am committed to the principles of equality, accessibility, excellence and parental choice in education. I will examine proposals for new schools, using robust criteria to ensure educational effectiveness and the safeguarding of the public purse. The figures are indeed very interesting, and we will have to take account of that. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education will also be watching this. It is to be hoped that we will have some useful discussions with them.
Mr K Robinson:
Since the Minister mentioned my constituency, East Antrim, and a school there, I would like to ask him if he is aware of the difficulties of duplication of provision in areas like East Antrim. Is he aware of any damage that may have been caused, particularly to the maintained sector - for example, schools in Larne and Carrickfergus, where there are already several hundred extra places? There are already constraints on the public purse regarding education, maintenance costs and money going into the classrooms, and there appears to be a duplication of provision there.
Mr M McGuinness:
Obviously, in any development of this nature, reservations will be expressed by the various education sectors. At the same time, we must all be conscious of the fact that, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, we have a responsibility to encourage and facilitate integrated education and Irish-medium education. As people become aware of that and the fact that the Executive Committee and a Department of Education are keen to facilitate parents, we will have to consider how we can do that without detrimentally affecting any educational bodies which exist within each school.
That is why the consideration of development proposals takes into account the effect on existing provision. It is absolutely vital that it does and, considering these matters, we must ensure, through the education and library boards in each area, that no matter what reservations people have, their fears are allayed and that we continue to provide first-class education on the basis of parental choice.
Child Abuse
9.
Mr Paisley Jnr
asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the NSPCC campaign to protect children following demands for "Sarah's law", the proposal for a public education campaign on child protection to increase awareness about the nature of child abuse, and if he can tell the Assembly what steps he is taking to put in place such a campaign.
Mr M McGuinness:
I have been informed that question nine has been allocated to another Department.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Can you tell us which Minister?
Mr M McGuinness:
I have been told it is the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.
Nursery School Places
10.
Dr McDonnell
asked the Minister of Education to detail how many children across Northern Ireland have been given nursery school places in each of the last three years and for what percentage of the age bracket this provides.
Mr M McGuinness:
The number of children given places in nursery schools or nursery units in the 1997-98 year was 8,541; in 1998-99 it was 8,850; and in 1999-2000 it was 9,999. These figures represent 34%, 36% and 42% respectively of three-year-olds at the start of the academic year. I should add that under the pre-school education expansion programme additional pre-school places are being funded in voluntary, private and statutory settings. The programme aims to make provision for at least 85% of all children in their final pre-school year by the year 2001-02.
When will we reach the point when a pre-school education place is available for every child who wants one?
4.00 pm
Mr M McGuinness:
We are committed to continuing with the progress made over recent years. From the year-on-year increase in provision, you can see that we are making tremendous progress. As in all of these matters, it is important for people to understand that I can only deal with the resources available to my Department. This will be a matter for the spending reviews currently taking place. The Department is committed to providing a year of pre-school nursery education for all children as speedily as possible.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
The time is up.
Retailing in Northern Ireland
The Chairperson of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee (Rev Dr Ian Paisley):
I beg to move
That this Assembly accepts and endorses the findings and recommendations contained in the Agriculture Committee's report 'Retailing in Northern Ireland - A Fair Deal for the Farmer?' and urges the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development and everyone associated with the industry to take all necessary steps to implement the recommendations.
When the Agriculture Committee was formed, it began an enquiry into the crippling debts in the farming industry. It seemed that these debts were going to strangle the industry. For those farmers who want to remain in farming, and those who want to save their farms, something must be done to enable them to achieve those aims.
Of course, the Assembly was suspended for a time, but when it returned, the Agriculture Committee said it would apply itself to three main issues. The result of its investigation, the questioning of witnesses and the taking of evidence, produced the first part of this report. Two other parts will follow hard on the heels of this one. This report is a serious one. It looks at ways and means of saving the farming industry. Evidence was sought from seven of the main retailing companies operating in Northern Ireland. This was followed by many lengthy sessions involving representatives of suppliers, packers and marketing bodies. The report sets out 16 recommendations which address four main themes.
(Mr Speaker in the Chair)
First, it tackles the need for primary producers to become more organised, the help they need to achieve that and the part that retailers can play to enable them to achieve that. Secondly, the issue of retailers importing goods already available in Northern Ireland is addressed. Thirdly, transparency and good communications between everyone in the food chain are dealt with, particularly with regard to prices paid to the farmers at the farm gate. The fourth theme endorses a series of recommendations related to the potato sector, food labelling, and planning issues surrounding large-scale retail developments.
There is now a disaster in the farming industry. It seems that almost everybody involved in the food chain is benefiting, apart from the primary producer. We talked to bankers, and I asked them if they were thinking of committing suicide, if they had changed their large car for a smaller one and if they were financially embarrassed. They looked at me as if I were a fool. I said that the primary producers are selling their cars. Some of them have already committed suicide, and others are bankrupt. So Mr Banker is doing very well out of the farming accounts he holds.
We talked to the meat producers, and I asked them the same question. I said "Are you selling your large car? Are you issuing a very sad report to your investors and your customers to the effect that you are about to break up?" I said "I have read some of your annual reports, and the amount of money you are accumulating through this industry is amazing.". They too were embarrassed. It is the same with the middlemen or wholesalers and the retailers.
But what about the farmers? Is it not strange that the primary producer is the only link of the chain to come under such terrific difficulties? I want to put on record that we recognise what the retailing and processing sectors bring to the economy in terms of jobs and valuable benefits. We are not criticising the retailers or the processing sectors, but we are saying to them "Surely everyone in the food chain should benefit. You are getting a good living. You are doing very well. Why should the primary producer not do well?" We also accept and recognise that there are peculiar difficulties in Northern Ireland. We have lower volumes and higher overheads here than in Great Britain. We sought to point that out that there is, however, a duty on all parts of the chain to have equal respect for the others, and that they should try to ensure that everybody can enjoy the benefits.
Farmers must be able to make a living on their farms, or they will be dispossessed of their land. It is as clear as that. The disastrous drop in farm incomes must start alarm bells ringing. Could any other industry exist with such tragic drops - catastrophic drops - in income at producer level?
The sourcing of locally produced goods is a matter of prime concern to the Committee, and we are pleased to note the commitments that have been expressed by retailers on this issue. It is the Committee's view that achievable targets should be established for the percentage of goods bought by the retailers. A target needs to be produced and stated, and the retailers need to say "We are prepared to reach that target when we are buying goods in a certain part of the food chain."
It seems that there is great hesitancy, however, amongst the retailers and the big concerns to make a commitment on this. If there is a pool of goods in Northern Ireland which is equally acceptable to the consumer, these large chains that are doing well out of the Province should be prepared to help. Why should this money go outside the Province? Should it not stay here and help the farming industry?
There are those who contend that you cannot look into a man's business and dictate to him. I am not suggesting that, but I am suggesting that there are targets which can be achieved. Sainsbury's, for example, has written to me admitting that, and it is going to take steps to remedy the situation. I am glad to hear that, and I hope to hear it from other large companies. However, actions rather than words are what count.
How will we know that they have done this? We will know if they are prepared to be absolutely transparent and declare where they are now, where they hope to be in the future and the steps they are taking to achieve their targets.
We recommend Government involvement in the overall effort to keep farmers abreast of consumer performance. The Committee readily admits that there is a degree of suspicion between producers and retailers. However, considerable progress can be made if all sides co-operate with one another, and especially if there is co-operation with the primary producers.
Our major concern is the effect of high import levels on the agriculture industry, particularly when the produce being imported is readily available locally. Why do these large firms persist in buying produce from outside the Province? If they continue to make themselves independent of the local producers, and to get away with it, the farmers will have an even more raw deal. The trouble is that the farmers do not have enough clout against these massive companies, with all their abilities, their finances and their organisations. The Committee saw this when it examined very reticent witnesses who were afraid to talk before their fellows. Some of them told us that because of business commitments they were not prepared to answer questions. This is a deep issue, which goes as far as the person at the end of the chain, the one who makes the money.
We propose that all retailers adopt a voluntary code of practice, similar to that already operated by the Co-operative Wholesale Society. If one organisation can do that, every big chain can do it. Let us have transparency in this matter.
4.15 pm
Finally, we have asked the Department for Regional Development to urgently review how it evaluates planning applications from the major retailers. In the Committee's view, greater account should be taken of the need to protect small retail businesses and to maintain the independent retail sector so it can thrive. The independent retail sector should not be wiped out. There is a need for independent retailers, and they should be sustained.
The Minister has written to the Committee accepting the overall thrust of its report and supporting most of its recommendations. While noting her expression of the need for caution in one or two areas, I am hopeful that today we will hear her specific plans for taking the agreed recommendations forward.
There are a number of areas in which urgent action by the Department could make a real difference. For example, it would be extremely encouraging for farmers if the Minister would state today what additional financial resources are to be made available to implement the recommendations we have made. She has indicated that Peace II funding may be used, and that Treasury match funding may also be considered to assist the setting up of partnerships and to further diversification.
We would like to hear more about the Minister's plans for assisting the development of the export markets and for bringing a greater level of expertise into this vital area.
One major concern for the Committee is the failure of many farmers to obtain a fair return for their produce and the investment they have put into their business. The Committee fully accepts that we must avoid the possibility of creating a price-fixing cartel among suppliers and retailers. However, the basic problem still exists - how to ensure a more equitable distribution of overall profits in the food chain. My Committee wants to hear the Minister's proposals for handling this matter.
This report is an important one for the future of our farming industry. The recommendations can and should be implemented forthwith. If they are, then all parts of the food chain will survive and prosper, and the primary producer will have a level playing field. However, if no action is taken, many primary producers will remain at risk, and ultimately the effects of this will be felt by processors, retailers and - most importantly - by the consumer.
I call upon retailers and their suppliers to take heed of this report, and to honour the commitments they made verbally to us in Committee. The consumer must not be forgotten. Retailers must inform shoppers about what they are being offered, and enable them to make informed choices about the quality on offer when they purchase locally grown goods.
Finally, I call on the Minister - to whom our recommendations are largely directed - to take all possible action to bring about the changes envisaged in our report. The agriculture industry is in a perilous state at the present time. For many farmers the next year or so will be a constant and desperate struggle for survival. It is our responsibility to make decisions, perhaps difficult decisions, for the provision of additional funding and other resources that will ultimately secure the long-term health of the industry.
We aim to treat every part of the food chain equally to treat the primary producer as fairly as those who have made vast sums of money out of the farmers' hard labours and sacrifice. I salute the farmers of Northern Ireland for coming through a very difficult and trying period. We should back them today in securing a brighter future for themselves, their children and their children's children.
The Deputy Chairperson of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee (Mr Savage):
I endorse the points made by the Chairman of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. I also pay tribute to the time and effort spent by Committee members on preparing this report. The evidence submitted by the producers, suppliers, and retailers of the agri-food industry has given us a better understanding of the problems faced by the industry. We have been able to make more informed recommendations. The Committee recognises that the farmers in Northern Ireland are facing a difficult time financially. Many are facing bankruptcy, and there are no easy answers to the problem. In its report, however, the Committee has suggested a way forward which will be of benefit to the entire community. The Chairman has mentioned the main recommendations of the report, but there are a number of others which should also be highlighted.
The producers' ability to negotiate with suppliers has been reduced because of their fragmentation as a group. Efforts must be made to enable Northern Ireland producers to operate as one unit, and thereby to maximise their income without operating as a cartel. This would not affect the consumer. It is important that we do not shift problems from one section of society to another. Income to farmers can be improved without any extra burden on consumers.
I welcome the offer of assistance from retailers who have agreed to participate in any new scheme set up to work with producers. This would give producers advice on how to satisfy market demands and deal with production, packaging and distribution. I urge the Minister to give swift and serious consideration to this offer. There must be more co-operation between farmers and the various outlets in both the home and export markets.
In the export field, our aim should be to project the best possible image of what is produced on Northern Ireland farms. To present an image of top-quality food, we must produce top-quality food. Farmers already aim to do this, but assistance is needed. If farmers are to continue to meet the increasingly high standards demanded by consumers, the Minister must provide help. Northern Ireland is proud of its healthy food-production industry. We must build on this by providing assistance, packaging and presentation.
It is sometimes necessary to import produce from outside Northern Ireland, but I urge the Minister to ensure that measures are put in place to prevent disease from being brought into Northern Ireland.
I am thinking particularly of the streptococcus which threatens our potato industry through the importation of potatoes which may be infected with brown rot. Potatoes for import should be inspected before they leave the country of origin, and I call on the Minister to institute such controls as a matter of great urgency.