Northern Ireland Assembly

Secondly, no self-respecting Protestant would be comfortable in a parade which claims to celebrate a national saint and which has at its head gunmen and gun-runners -

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close.

That parade has people celebrating the resistance of the Garvaghy Road residents and bans the flag of St Patrick in favour of the Irish tricolour. No self-respecting Protestant could call an event like that inclusive, and for that reason I will not support the motion in the name of Mr McCarthy.

I do not know how to begin after that speech. I have always been of the opinion that St Patrick's Day should be celebrated and should be a public holiday. I support the amendment because the motion does not go far enough. Some mention has been made of the chain which I also wore as Lord Mayor of Belfast. During that time I attempted to have the Lord Mayor's parade brought forward to St Patrick's Day. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful. Had I been successful, we might not have had the sectarianism in the Belfast parade last year that will probably be present this year. Mrs Nelis mentioned funding. I walk on 12 July in the biggest parade of all, and I do not have any funding. I have to pay my dues before I am allowed to walk, so I do not see why anybody needs funding for a parade.

There has been much talk about Irish and British. I am both Irish and British. I believe that anyone who is born on the island of Ireland is Irish and that anyone who is born in Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom, is British. I belong to the Church of Ireland, which is founded on the principles of St Patrick. I also belong to the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland and am very proud of that. It is wrong for Members and Friends opposite to lecture us on what it means to be Irish. I do not need any such lectures. I know what I am, and I have always shown it.

The dispute about what an Irishman actually is has been going on for a long time. One English dictionary described an Irishman as a hunter, and another as a moorsman. I think it was the poet Patrick Kavanagh who described an Irishman as a sophisticated mechanism for turning Guinness into urine. Those who are Murphy's drinkers, like me, will find that it is a superfluous exercise anyway.

In 1921 the first Prime Minister of Northern Ireland said that Ulstermen were Irishmen, the best Irishmen - aye, the very best. I agree.

I have no problem with the motion in principle, but it does not go far enough. If you have a public holiday here you fly the Union flag. Wales, Scotland and England have public holidays commemorating their saints, and the Union flag is flown. Since we are part of the United Kingdom it should be no different here.

When the Lord Mayor of Dublin was in Belfast with his chain of office, which carries a motif of King William of Orange, I offered to swap, but he would not agree.

I support the amendment.

The issue of St Patrick's Day's becoming a holiday has been well examined by Members in an erudite way and in other ways. I can but add one or two comments about the importance of St Patrick to Ireland in another sense - and I make no apologies for saying this. St Patrick has international appeal and recognition. It was John F Kennedy, I think, who said that there were some 47 million people of Irish descent or who would claim Irish connection. President Reagan pitched it at 70 million. Whatever it is, there is an enormous potential for tourism, and I am talking about using the patron saint's day and the image of St Patrick to attract tourists. We have been working on this in Downpatrick in a number of ways. We are very proud of what we have achieved so far and are optimistic about the future. This is something that we should not forget.

Downpatrick's St Patrick's Day parades have been very successful. The reason for that - other Members have noted this - is that no national flags of any kind have been flown. We asked people not to bring them, and 99% did not. The council provides St Patrick's flags, and that has been successful because it has been seen as neutral: people participate without any fear of being in awe of any one side.

That is why, as my Colleagues have explained, we cannot support the amendment. I have no doubt that there were good intentions behind the amendment, but it has escaped the notice of those who proposed it that of all things in Northern Ireland flags are perhaps the most divisive. That is because of the way in which they are used.

Flags originated with Roman standard-bearers. A bearer in the legion held the standard against all odds, and the legion would defend the standard-bearer to the very last person. The image of the standard-bearer was carried forward by the Normans with flags that we know and see today and by Governments into nation states. In the last and previous centuries, regiments fought with their colours and defended them to the last man if necessary. They honoured and respected their flags and gave them their allegiance.

What happens in Northern Ireland? Flags are an in-your-face political taunt for both sides.

This is a primeval urge which reminds me of wild dogs urinating to mark their territory, and that is the image of flags on both sides. When you drive around Northern Ireland you see the tatters on the masts and flagpoles. Who has any respect or honour for his flag when he allows that to happen to it? Those flags are a political taunt. That is why we cannot support the amendment to the motion. The motion is a good and sound one which has my full support, but the amendment is divisive by its very nature.

I am unable to support the motion, but I support the amendment. At the moment St Patrick's Day is a bank holiday but not a public holiday, and there are many who want to see it become a public holiday which they can enjoy. I do not have any difficulty with that. If that is their wish they should be granted it.

Patrick's theology and religious practices have come up quite often in the debate. There are relevant in that they are often overlooked on the streets of New York, Washington and elsewhere, where St Patrick's Day seems to be a bigger day than it is on the island of Ireland. However, Patrick's theology and religious practices are not an issue. The issue is whether Patrick remains the patron saint of the Republic of Ireland. If he does, how can British citizens feel part of the celebration?

The comments by Mr Maginness, the Member for North Belfast, almost beggar belief. If we are not part of an ethos or an identity, whatever is done to attempt to widen that identity does not matter, because we are still simply not part of it. It is like asking the people who live alongside the Great Lakes or on the borders of Canada if they want to be part of the 4^th of July. They would say "Why on earth should we? We are not Americans." And if someone pointed out that they lived in North America they would reply "Yes, but we are Canadians." It is the same in Northern Ireland. We may be Irish because we live on the island of Ireland, but we are British by birth and will remain so.

Can Bastille Day be celebrated in Spain? Why not? If those whose identity is not Irish can be expected to celebrate Irishness, why can we not expect the Spanish to celebrate Bastille Day? Is the modern St Patrick's Day for everyone regardless of his religion? It should be for everyone who regards himself as Irish. I do not and never will, now or in the future, and my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren will not regard themselves as Irish either. We treat with contempt this attempt to widen Irishness to include Protestants and the thought that if the parade is made less contentious, perhaps the Protestants will join in. That is the issue. That is the nature of this agenda.

I close my remarks by referring to the last Member's comments about flags. I endorse some of what he said, for there has been too much flag-waving and in-your-face triumphalism with flags. The Member does not seem to understand, however, that they hauled down the Union flag in his council area following precedents set by other local authorities who had done likewise. Unionists saw that as the exit sign. It was time to go. They were not wanted. They were not welcome. They should leave. That is what they did in Londonderry. That is what they did elsewhere along the border. Where the Union flag cannot fly, British citizens are not welcome. Until people realise and accept that, we will have grave difficulties.

Nearly everything that needed to be said has been said already. First, it strikes me as somewhat ironic that we are discussing the celebration of a "Brit" as the patron saint of Ireland. Given the oft-heard battle-cry of "Brits out", this could pose a difficulty for certain people in the years ahead, when they may have to look for another patron saint for Ireland.

Secondly, as has been pointed out, we are formalising the flying of the Union flag. Since the removal of the irredentist claims in articles 2 and 3 of the Republic of Ireland's constitution, we feel that we are merely normalising this part of the United Kingdom in that regard.

Thirdly, and most importantly, having St Patrick's Day as a national holiday would remind us of the true spirit of worship. To love the Lord our God with all our being and our neighbour as ourselves should be the principle which supersedes and influences every aspect of our lives, including politics. If the challenge of St Patrick and the message he had about our personal lives and our relationship with our God and our neighbours were to enhance the quality of our lives and our politics, it would be worth it. I support the amendment.

I listened with interest as this debate unfolded. I listened particularly to the Member who moved the motion and observed with even greater interest how he failed to address certain questions when asked to do so. I look forward to his addressing those questions, particularly the one about the sectarian nature of St Patrick's Day parades in Northern Ireland.

The parade from which he derives the greatest joy is the one in New York. Can anyone with half a head on his shoulders not wonder what planet these people came from, given the coat-trailing exercise carried out in the name of celebrating St Patrick's Day, particularly in Belfast?

I listened to the rant from Mary Nelis. It was nothing more than a sectarian rant, but one would hardly expect anything else from that quarter. It seems to be that Lady's hallmark. She boldly declared that St Patrick's Day was for the Irish. Then she got succour, comfort and support from the pan-Nationalist front spearheaded by Mr Maginness. He said that we on this side of the House have an identity crisis and are not really British at all. We are simply Irishmen just as he is.

He has been told in clear and unambiguous terms that we are not Irish bigots like him. Members such as Mr Campbell have said that. In fact, we are British and proud of it. We have no apologies to make for that.

If Mr Maginness is up to it, I will throw down the challenge to the SDLP today to separate itself from Sinn Féin/IRA and take a bold and courageous stand against that sectarian organisation. Mr Attwood confirmed that it would not be doing that, and Mr ONeill seemed to think that it was for him to reinforce that. As far as the SDLP is concerned, the sectarian nature of St Patrick's Day will continue as boldly as ever.

Mr ONeill said that flags divide people. He is quite right - they do. They single people out. In the part of the world where I live they mark out territory. The flag of my country is taken down, and the flag of a foreign, hostile nation is raised. That is the encouragement that Unionists get along the border. Maybe Mr ONeill has never been there, but he should go and see it for himself. Of course, the council that he sits on wants to compound the matter and insult us even more. It took down the Union flag of the country that pays all the grants and gives all the comforts that Mr ONeill wants to enjoy. It had to be pulled down. This is how he says he can unite the people and bring them together. Where does he live anyway?

Cloud-cuckoo-land.

This just shows how successful flags have been in Northern Ireland in bringing people together. I am talking about both sides, as I have made clear.

Does Mr ONeill watch the St Patrick's Day parade on television? Does he see the thousands of Republicans who flaunt themselves as they march in triumph behind the tricolour? Can he say that that has brought the two communities together?

I congratulate Belfast City Council on having used its discretion to turn down the grant application for that coat-trailing exercise. I have no hesitation in supporting the amendment. Militant Republicanism in this Province has abused the name of St Patrick, and this is another opportunity for it to extend itself and the support that it feels it deserves.

I will be supporting the amendment.

Go raibh maith agat, a Leas Cheann Comhairle.

Having listened to Dr Adamson's learned dissertation on the historical background to St Patrick, I hesitate to add to the debate. Dr Adamson's speech contrasted favourably with Mr S Wilson's pantomime and with Dr Paisley's rather interesting fundamentalist contribution. I find it difficult to understand how anyone can speak for his grandchildren. I never know what my grandchildren are going to do from one minute to the next, never mind from one century to the next. Sometimes when Mr Campbell speaks, his mind forgets where his mouth is.

Sinn Féin could have been churlish and argued about the wording of the motion. We could have said that we did not agree with the wording but that we would support the motion anyway because we agree that there should be a public holiday on St Patrick's Day. It is unfortunate - and we have heard this from the DUP - that the issue of the flag has been introduced to the debate, for all the churches (Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist and Roman Catholic) accept the Christian influence that St Patrick had on this island and regard him as a saint. It would have been good, a unifying force, if we could have agreed, without any great debate that was going to divide orange and green or bring in elements of sectarianism, that St Patrick's Day should be a public holiday.

It would be appropriate for St Patrick's Day to be a public holiday - and I say so not because I am a Catholic or even because I am an Irishman. When we say "Brits out" we are not talking about the people who inhabit this part of the island; we are talking about the institutions of British governance on this part of the island. I wonder if Billy Bell would think the flying of the Irish national flag alongside the Union Jack acceptable, as flying the Union flag alongside the Scottish flag is accepted in Scotland. I do not want to talk about the flag; it should not be dragged into this debate. It should not be relevant to an issue that is intended primarily to bring about consensus or even introduce ecumenism into the debate.

I support the motion, a Leas Cheann Comhairle.

I support the amendment. As some Members have said, St Patrick's Day could be an occasion for community participation and enjoyment if it were done properly. St Patrick is remembered in history as a saint, and many churches celebrate his bringing Christianity to Ireland. He also has pride of place on one of the Orange banners. The cross of St Patrick is paraded in Belfast every 12 July by a religious organisation. This shows that it recognises the part played by St Patrick.

What do we see whenever a St Patrick's Day parade takes place? We see the promotion of Nationalism. If St Patrick were here today to see the float representing prisoners' organisations, would he see that as part of his Christianity? Would he see the flaunting of tricolours - and that is what happens - as promoting the religion that he brought here? Would he see the picking of marshals on the grounds of their Republican credentials or on account of their being ex-prisoners as Christian behaviour?

These parades are an organised attack on our British heritage. I would like to make it very clear that I am not Irish. I have no wish to be Irish. I am British by birth, British by persuasion and British by choice. That is the way I want to be. Some Members mentioned their children. I want my children and my grandchildren - if there are any, as I hope there will be - to have the same choice and the same freedom that I have.

It is clear from their comments today that some Members see the St Patrick's Day parade as an opportunity not to bring the community together, or to recognise the bringing of Christianity to Ireland, but to promote a Nationalist ethos and Nationalist sentiments. By their promotion of the political ideals that they have espoused here today and on the parades which already take place, they have excluded people like me from participating or from even wanting to participate. If they were to take out the politics and the national aspirations and focus entirely on St Patrick's Christianity, many more people could and would enjoy the occasion. The quicker they put the focus on Christianity rather than on Nationalist aspirations and Nationalist politics and on rubbing our noses in the dirt, the quicker they will have that participation.

I did not intend to politicise the debate or cause division during its course, nor have I attempted to do so. There is no need to. I have no discomfort - that was a good word used by my Colleague Dr Birnie - with St Patrick. I never have had, and I have no intention of having discomfort with St Patrick in the future.

I have no discomfort with St Brigid or St Bride - the name of my parish church and the townland where I was born. How could I have discomfort with that? I believe, however, that if this is to be a public holiday, the Union flag, the flag of this country, should be flown. It is as simple as that.

I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate. It has been useful and constructive. In particular, I thank those Members who have indicated that they will support the amendment, and I commend it to the House.

The motion and the debate today have highlighted the unsatisfactory situation that the day on which we celebrate our national patron saint is only partially recognised as a public holiday. There have been some examples of that in the divisions between the public sector and the private sector and in the divisions between controlled and maintained schools. Sometimes it seems that Protestant schools only get the day off when they are playing in a Schools' Cup final.

This is why it is so important that St Patrick's Day be made fully inclusive, a day which can involve every citizen. We do not need divisive debates - [Interruption]

Order.

- any more than we need two parades in Belfast.

We need to apply some of the more positive examples that have been given during the debate, such as using the day to bring people together to celebrate their shared history. Mrs Bell and Mr ONeill gave the example of the Downpatrick parade. As Mr Kieran McCarthy said when he moved the motion, Patrick was neither a Unionist nor a Nationalist, nor was he a card-carrying member of the Alliance Party. Dr Birnie pointed out that Patrick was neither a Protestant nor a Catholic in the sense that we understand them these days. Rev Robert Coulter reminded us that Patrick was actually a Brit, born on the western shores of the adjacent island. For me, it does not really matter whether they were the shores of the Solway or the Severn, for he was an adopted Irishman.

A blow-in.

He was indeed a blow-in, but to regard someone who has such a distinguished record and who brought Christianity to this island like that is fairly cheap.

I was very interested in Dr Ian Adamson's linking Patrick very specifically to a small area around Kells and Connor. Even though I live in the parish of Connor, it is totally irrelevant whether he herded sheep on Croagh Patrick or pigs on Slemish. Patrick was brought here as a slave. He came back bringing Christianity with him. He lived, he taught and he died here, and we need to find a way to celebrate properly all that he brought to us.

It is funny how, in a debate where people seemed to be united, quite a few divisive remarks were made. Without recalling the remarks of every Member who spoke, I thank those who gave a broad general welcome. They started with Mr McGrady, and then I lost track.

I was interested in Dr Paisley's comments. He made it clear that he supports the motion, and he respects the idea of honouring St Patrick. He complained about sectarianism and the politicisation of St Patrick's memory, and that is entirely consistent with the motion. We do not want a divisive St Patrick's Day. We want one in which the entire community can unite, because there are cultural reasons - whatever Mr Campbell and some other members of the DUP may think - for being united in this, regardless of feelings about national citizenship.

There were other expressions of support which perhaps I should gloss over, as they seemed a little thin at times. The exchange between Mr Maginness and Mr Gibson on the difference between cultural and political Irishness and the roots of Celtic Christianity was fascinating.

The fact that Mr McElduff managed to join in the debate without being heckled too much by the DUP is, perhaps, evidence of our have gone a stage further in the Assembly today.

Mr Bell made a very practical suggestion when, referring to his time as Lord Mayor of Belfast, he said that he had hoped that the Lord Mayor's parade could be rescheduled to take place on St Patrick's Day. The Assembly should suggest this to future Lord Mayors as one way of overcoming the divisions in Belfast on this issue.

We had the usual knockabout comedy from Mr Sammy Wilson. I gather that he does not like Alliance Party grammar. I do not particularly like the contorted way in which we have to phrase motions and amendments either.

I was fascinated by his session on the radio this morning. I gathered from the broadcast that he is concerned that people get drunk on St Patrick's Day. He had barely finished speaking when my telephone rang and the lady on the other end of the line went on to inform me that she was a Protestant and that she had seen people drunk on the Twelfth. In fact, I have it on good authority that some people get so drunk on the Twelfth that they have to take the thirteenth off as well. This motion does not propose that 18 March too be a holiday. [Interruption]

I have news for the DUP: people get drunk at Christmas too. Do we now have to go out and tell people that Christmas is cancelled because people get drunk and misuse a Christian celebration? Perhaps Sammy Wilson will tell the children of Northern Ireland that Santa is not coming this year because adults get drunk.

The amendment needs to be taken seriously. However, I believe that it is unnecessary because, as I understand it, St Patrick's Day is already a flag day in Northern Ireland.

Mr Ford, please bring your remarks to a close, as the time is up.

Mr Speaker, I was given 10 minutes by your Deputy.

These Deputies are so generous.

What is my position?

I will give in to their generosity.

The amendment will bring division to the Chamber where there is largely unity. It is unnecessary, and it is divisive. I wonder if Ulster Unionist Members watched the rugby match at Twickenham on Saturday when the English fans, who for so long have arrogated the Union flag to themselves, finally seemed to have discovered their third of it - they were waving the St George cross.

Will the Member give way?

No. I am afraid that I am under a time limit.

If we are looking at the issue of flags it is time that people stopped arrogating the Union flag to one section of society. We could perhaps take our third out of it and use St Patrick's flag as a unifying force instead of the two national flags, which are divisive.

I also believe that Mr Wilson is wrong and that in Scotland the Union flag and the saltire are flown beside each other on the Scottish Parliament. In Cardiff, they even fly the European flag beside the Union flag and the Welsh dragon, so some of the remarks that were made about practice in other parts of the UK are inaccurate.

I want to see a future in which we start to move away from divisions, from the "them and us" society that has been our lot for 30 years. We have "their" schools and "our" schools, "their" churches and "our" churches, "their" estates and "our" estates, and "their" clubs and "our" clubs. This motion at least gives us a chance to show that we want to get away from the idea of "their" holidays and "our" holidays. I urge the Member who moved the amendment to withdraw it in the interests of unity in the Assembly, and I urge the Assembly to support the motion.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

I want to raise a point of order relating to the issue of flags. Yesterday was one of the designated flag days, and I understand that the national flag was flown from this building, but, sadly, not from Rathgael or Castle Buildings. Members will recall that on 17 January this House passed a resolution condemning the Health Minister's refusal to grant permission to fly the national flag. Assurances were given - this is my point - by the First Minister, among others, that this matter would be dealt with before the next designated flag day.

Yesterday was such a day, and Sinn Féin still refuses to fly the national flag. What can be done about this? When will the First Minister be required to tell us what he is going to do?

I give an immediate response, but I will check up. My recollection is that Sunday was the flag day and that the flag was flown. However, I am not clear that the House can make demands of Ministers. That is something that the Member and the House may wish to reflect upon, not only in respect of this matter but in respect of other matters as well. I will study what the Member has said and will respond as best I can.

If that was a point of order, it was a very liberal one.

I am a very liberal man.

Question put That the amendment be made.