Are there any further nominations?

The time for nominations is up.

The four Members who have been proposed and seconded have accepted their nominations. I will put, in turn, the Question that each Member be accepted. Divisions will be on a cross-community basis.

Question put That Mr William Hay be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

Question put That Mr Donovan McClelland be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

That Mr Donovan McClelland be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

Question put That Sir John Gorman be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

That Sir John Gorman be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

Question put That Ms Jane Morrice be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

That Ms Jane Morrice be a Deputy Speaker of the Assembly.

I formally declare that Mr McClelland, Sir John Gorman and Ms Morrice have been elected Deputy Speakers.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to look at Standing Order 4(7), which says

"Where the Assembly is unable to elect a Speaker under the foregoing provisions of this Standing Order, but where a Deputy Speaker has been elected by virtue of Standing Order 5, the Deputy Speaker shall act as Speaker. In the case of more than one Deputy Speaker being elected they shall act in turn until a Speaker is elected."

Members have been unable to elect a Speaker. Can you tell us how the Assembly’s future business will be affected by this Standing Order?

Mr Robinson and his Colleague beside him have an unrivalled knowledge of Standing Orders, ‘Erskine May’ and other matters relating to parliamentary practice.

They also have an unparalleled capacity for selective quotation with regard to these matters. The situation under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which is over and above the Standing Orders, is that anyone who was an office holder of the type described at the point of devolution was, by the transitional clauses of the Act, deemed to be Speaker. Furthermore, any proposal would have to be on an Order Paper, and it would then fall foul of another problem: at present Standing Orders allow for the proposal of a new Speaker only if the last Speaker has been removed by death, resignation or through the dissolution of the Assembly. At this juncture I have no plans to facilitate Members in this regard. [Laughter]

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Oral Answers to Questions

Education

1. Mr Close

asked the Minister of Education when a start will be made to the building of a replacement school for the pupils of Ballycarrickmaddy Primary School, Lisburn, County Antrim.(AQO 185/99)

The Minister of Education (Mr M McGuinness): No start date can be given at the moment. A replacement school for Ballycarrickmaddy Primary is being considered in the next school-building programme. I will announce the details of this in the next two weeks. The timing of the building work for any school included on the programme will then be dependent on the completion of the detailed planning arrangements.

Does the Minister accept that temporary accommodation, particularly at primary school level, means that pupils in these schools — young children — are at a disadvantage compared to others who, in their formative years, go through the education process in, if I may put it this way, solid classrooms. They are greatly disadvantaged; indeed, one could almost say that there is an inequality in the way they are taught and in the potential for the development of their education. The Minister should be trying to ensure the removal of all temporary accommodation, in particular at primary school level. I accept that there is a financial consideration, but when we are talking about targeting social need, this is a prime example, and I believe the need starts in the classroom in the early, formative days. Would the Minister agree that steps should be taken to correct this inequality?

I agree that there is a serious situation in respect of schools and, in particular, with primary school accommodation. I am concerned about this problem. There are about 4,000 temporary classrooms throughout the North of Ireland — that is totally unacceptable. On taking up office I said that I wanted to move forward on the basis of equality, accessibility, excellence and choice, but I am reminded that I must also move forward on the basis of affordability. I realise that there is a problem that we need to address. I have made it clear in interviews that I have given to the ‘Belfast Telegraph’ and other media outlets that my Department is determined to address this issue.

Mr Bell and I have already made representation to the Minister on this matter. Ballycarrickmaddy Primary school is high on the South Eastern Education and Library Board’s list of priorities. Bearing in mind where this school is situated and the fact that it is 100 years old, I assume that the Minister will give it top priority.

I did meet with you and Billy Bell; it is important that Ministers meet with Assembly Members on matters like this, for people on the ground know the difficulties and problems that are faced by parents and pupils alike. I thank you for that meeting.

Over the next few days I will be announcing the capital building programme for this year, and this will be a substantial investment in the schools estate. Ballycarrickmaddy is on the competitors’ list, and I will be taking this into account when deciding which schools will be successful. Some schools will be disappointed; others will be pleased. No decisions have been taken yet, indeed, I have asked for the Education Committee’s views on the school capital building programme, and I have promised to take their views seriously before making a final decision.

Does the Minister support the notion of equality of opportunity for all children, particularly in relation to their participation in creative and expressive work such as the Pushkin project, or does he support the locally elected representative who, in the words of our own famous poet

"crudely demeaned this very worthwhile work"?

Order. This question — and I have listened carefully to it — is substantially removed from the subject of the original question. I will leave it up to the Minister to determine how to respond.

I am very pleased to respond. Obviously this is a situation in which I have a considerable interest. I said at the time of the controversy that I believed that the best way to resolve it was locally, through discussion and dialogue in the community. In the intervening period I have been trying very hard to resolve this difficulty, and I am very hopeful indeed that it can be resolved in the short term.

Mr Speaker, in respect of the answers given earlier to my Colleague Mr Davis, the Member for Lagan Valley, may I ask the Minister of Education if he will ensure that the allocation of funding in the current capital building programme will accurately reflect the size of the various education sectors? In particular, will he urgently address the historic disparity in funding to the controlled sector? If necessary, will he undertake to withhold grant allocations until schemes are available in this sector?

The criteria for selection are of great importance, but the most important criterion is educational need, and that is educational need as reflected by the priority categories in the schools planning list, together with reports, advice and information from the inspectorate, the education and library boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools and others with interests in schools. In addition, only those projects which have been planned for sufficiently at this stage can be considered for the programme.

2. Mr Fee

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to abolish the selection procedure for transfer from primary education to second-level education. (AQO 174/99)

Future arrangements for secondary education must be considered against the principles of equality, excellence, accessibility and affordability. The project team researching the impact of selection will report in early spring, and I will take its findings into account along with the issues that will be raised in the ensuing public and political debate when considering the future of selective education.

Notwithstanding the fact that there is a review under way, can the Minister confirm that the existing selection procedure — including the 11-plus examination, the results of which will be out this week, which patently causes distress, anxiety and pressure for parents and children alike — is itself substantially flawed? Will he also say that no matter what comes out of the review, he is committed to replacing the existing procedure and doing away with the current appeals system, which means that parents end up taking their local boards of governors to task in the courts?

Everybody in this House knows my personal view and my party’s view on this, and that is that the selection system should be abolished. That is what I believe. But, as Minister, I must also take account of the broader view, for there are other opinions. I will consider the findings of the review and the views expressed by wider educational interests and others before I take any decisions. I want to have educational arrangements which meet the principles of equality, excellence, accessibility and affordability and which are in the best interests of all children.

Everybody is aware that a research project is ongoing. It is headed by Prof Tony Gallagher from Queen’s University and Prof Alan Smith from the University of Ulster. They are involved with a consortium of academics and others within the education system who are doing hefty research work. They are due to report their findings very shortly. I had hoped that the report would be ready by the end of January, but I have since asked them to do a comparative study of other places like the United States of America, England, Scotland and, indeed, further afield.

In all likelihood it will be early spring before we have their findings. The Department will look at their report, and I hope that by April or May we can put this out for consultation. There will be a wide-ranging debate, possibly one of the most important educational debates that we have seen for many decades. I am looking forward to being part of that debate and presume that, similarly, all Members will deal in a very sensible way with what is undoubtedly a very serious issue that faces all of us.

Mr Speaker, perhaps you would inform the Minister that he is in Stormont and not Castlereagh and that he is permitted to answer questions in the Chamber. So far we have had one "I’ll tell you in two weeks", three "I’m concerned", three "hopefuls" and two "equalities", but we have not had any answers to any of the questions.

Order. And what is your question, Mr Wilson?

I am getting round to that, Mr Speaker. I know that the Order Paper says "Question Time". Maybe we can have some answers as well. I am still not clear whether the Minister is committed to the pledge he made one day after taking office that he was going to scrap the selection procedure.

Will the Member give way?

The Member is not at liberty to give way during a supplementary question.

Perhaps the Minister would tell us whether he has reviewed the report which was produced by Lord Melchett when he last proposed this in 1978, what cost was involved in this exercise at that stage and what it will currently cost to go down the road which he promised on his first day in office.

I thank Mr Wilson for his question. I recall some weeks ago that he promised everyone that he would be like a Dobermann at my heels. I would like to remind the Member that the place for a Dobermann is at the heel of the master.

This is an important discussion, and Sammy Wilson’s views are also important because he represents a strand of opinion which is the opposite of the widely held view in the community with regard to the 11-plus and the selection procedure. He is absolutely right that in tackling this issue we all have to bear in mind the affordability and the reality that to make significant changes like those suggested by many who are opposed to the selection procedure would be very costly. Whether we can find the finances that such a challenge would bring would be a matter for the Executive Committee.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Does the Minister agree that the present system of selection at the age of 11 is unfair and that it places huge emotional and economic stress on parents and children alike, many of whom cannot afford private tuition, and that it brands children of that age as failures? Go raibh maith agat.

I am concerned and aware that people have expressed their opinions to their elected representatives on this examination, particularly in the context of the emotional and psychological trauma that it presents for many children and parents. I deeply appreciate that. It will be very interesting to see the report from Tony Gallagher and Alan Smith, who are researching how this examination affects young children and their parents in this way.

3. Mr Ervine

asked the Minister of Education whether his Department is satisfied with the educational provision for children in residential care or prison. (AQO 152/99)

Responsibility for the education of children in residential care as a result of the former NIO-managed sentences transferred from the NIO to the Department of Education from 1 September 1999. I am satisfied that arrangements are being put in place to secure appropriate educational provision for these children.

Educational provision for juvenile justice children is the responsibility of the NIO, and I intend to discuss with the NIO how best to secure appropriate educational provision for them all. The majority of children in care, outside those with former NIO-managed sentences, are in the mainstream schools system. However, my Department has some concerns about a pattern of educational underachievement with some children in care. My Department, in collaboration with Save the Children and other groups, has undertaken research on the subject to help us to decide how best to establish effective educational provision for children in care.

Having referred to it, I presume that the Minister or his officials are aware of the number of underachievers in the system controlled by the Northern Ireland Office, which is a reserved matter.

Is he aware that it is his duty to ensure that all children have an opportunity to get a proper education? That is their right. What steps will he take to challenge some of the unreasonable circumstances because of which, behind the closed doors of the Northern Ireland Office’s juvenile justice centres, children or young people are being completely denied a proper education? Will the Minister also give us, at the earliest opportunity, the statistics for those children who are in the Northern Ireland Office juvenile justice centres and for those who are deemed to be underachievers.

I will write to the Member giving him those statistics, and I will place copies of the correspondence in the Library. The issue that he raises is a very important one. I have considerable interest in it, and my interest was renewed by the question. I have also carried out my own investigations into previous inspections and examinations that have taken place in the juvenile prison system. I am satisfied with the reports, but I am totally dissatisfied with the conditions under which these children are being held. This is a vital matter that I will take up with the NIO. It is our responsibility to ensure the well-being and proper education of all children.

Does the Minister agree that his Department is better placed than NIO to make provision for the educational needs of all children, including those imprisoned under the juvenile justice system?

The present arrangements are absolutely unacceptable. They are totally unsatisfactory, and I intend to challenge them. My Department should have the overriding responsibility for dealing with these matters.

Does the Minister accept that, in an ideal society, no children would be in residential care or prison? Does he also agree that we should work towards eliminating the cause of the problem rather than try to cure its effects?

I agree, and I am going to make an urgent attempt to visit some of these institutions over the coming weeks to talk to the young people and to the people who are responsible for their welfare.

4. Mr Benson

asked the Minister of Education why the plans announced for a new school to be built on the Bowtown Road, Newtownards to replace Castle Gardens Primary School did not include a nursery unit.

(AQO 142/99)

The pre-school education advisory group for the South Eastern Education and Library Board did not recommend a nursery unit at the new school to replace Castle Gardens Primary School.

The existing Newtownards nursery school is directly opposite Castle Gardens Primary School, and it will continue to serve children from the same area. There is also scope for increasing the number of places in the new nursery unit at the nearby Abbey Primary School.

First, may I point out that it is the old school that the Minister referred to.

Is the Minister aware that the South Eastern Education and Library Board, in an effort to correct this omission, has asked his Department to make provision for this when the school is being built? Does the Minister agree that not to do so now will mean having to do so when the school has been built? This would be very costly and disruptive to the children then attending the school. Can the Minister confirm that he will approve the inclusion of this provision when the school is being built?

People are conscious of the serious attempt being made to provide pre-school education for all. The education and library boards have pre-school education advisory groups which advise them on how best to site pre-school nursery units for the benefit of the local communities.

I am listening carefully to the Member’s comments and have spoken to officials in my Department about this matter. My information is that there is adequate provision. However, I am open to discussion and debate with Members.

We are approaching the deadline for applications for places this year. In the course of the last week there has been some discussion about this matter, and the DUP and others have accused me of trying to claim the announcement, when I did no such thing. There is now an opportunity, before Wednesday, for parents with children born between 2 July 1996 and 1 July 1997 to apply for places for those children. I encourage all Members, through their local media outlets, to encourage parents in their constituencies to take those places up.

We are fast approaching a situation where we can offer 100% provision for parents and their children. It will be over a period, but we are making rapid progress, considering that some three years ago only 45% of children were able to gain places. We can now offer 75%, and we will be increasing that further to 85%.

This is a very important period in a child’s life. We are all conscious of the need for pre-school education and that it is vital for children, and that brings us again to the locations of pre-school nursery schools. We are dealing with that, and although some people may have their difficulties and problems, they can be overcome.

Should not Mr Benson, as a former member of the board of governors of Castle Gardens Primary School, have known the answer to question number 4? Furthermore, as a member of the South Eastern Education and Library Board, he should have declared an interest.

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