Northern Ireland Assembly

The Deputy First Minister (Mr Mallon):

With permission, Mr Speaker, we will make a statement to report to the Assembly on the first summit-level meetings of the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which were held in London on 17 December 1999.

I will be making the report in relation to the British-Irish Council, and the First Minister —

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is there something wrong with the sound system this morning? It is very difficult to hear.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Member for bringing that to our attention. Will the Keeper of the House ensure that the problem with the sound system is addressed?

I thank the hon Member for drawing attention to that. In case anyone did not hear what I just said, I will repeat it: we will be making a statement to report to the Assembly on the first summit-level meetings of the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which were held in London on 17 December 1999.

I shall be making the report in relation to the British-Irish Council, and the First Minister will be making the report in relation to the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference.

This report, as it relates to the British-Irish Council meeting, has been approved by all Northern Ireland Ministers who attended the meeting. The First Minister and I are making this report on behalf of all of us. Representatives of the British and Irish Governments, the Northern Ireland Executive Committee, the Scottish Executive, the National Assembly for Wales, the Isle of Man Government, and the states of Jersey and Guernsey attended the British-Irish Council meeting.

The following Northern Ireland Ministers attended: Mr David Trimble, Mr Seamus Mallon, Ms Bairbre de Brún, Mr Mark Durkan and Sir Reg Empey.

The British-Irish Council agreed a memorandum on procedural guidance, which sets out the supplementary procedural arrangements relating to the operation of the Council.

The Council also agreed a future programme of work. Five areas will be taken forward in sectoral format over the first year. The Irish Government will take the lead on drugs; the Scottish Executive and the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales will jointly take forward work on social inclusion; the Northern Ireland Executive Committee will take the lead on the subject of transport; the British Government will lead on the environment; and Jersey will lead in sectoral format on the subject of the knowledge economy. The next summit-level meeting of the council will be convened by the Irish Government in June 2000. The principal item for substantive discussion at that meeting will be drugs. The meeting will also take stock of progress on other work in sectoral format.

A copy of the memorandum on procedural guidance and a copy of the communiqué issued following the meeting have been placed in the Assembly Library.

The Deputy First Minister and I participated in the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference meeting.

The conference agreed a memorandum of understanding on supplementary procedural arrangements relating to its operation. A copy of the memorandum and a copy of the communiqué issued after the meeting have been placed in the Assembly Library.

The conference noted that it would bring together the British and Irish Governments to promote bilateral co-operation at all levels on all matters of mutual interest within the competence of both Governments. An initial list of issues, which will form a programme of work in respect of bilateral co-operation, was agreed. These include: asylum and immigration, including common-travel-area issues; European Union and international issues; social security, including methods and fraud detection; education; policy on misuse of drugs; combating organised crime and associated money laundering; and fiscal issues.

The Deputy First Minister and I raised the matter of fuel duty and its impact on the economy of Northern Ireland at the meeting. It was agreed that the conference would consider this issue as part of its future work programme under fiscal issues.

The conference agreed that its next meeting at summit level would take place during the first half of 2000, and that its first meeting on non-devolved Northern Ireland matters would take place in January. It was agreed that meetings on other issues would be arranged as necessary.

Can the First Minister confirm that the inaugural meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference marks the end of the Anglo-Irish Conference and secretariat, which for 15 years gave the Irish Republic a say in every aspect of government in Northern Ireland?

I can, of course, confirm that the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 ceased to operate on 2 December, on devolution to this House, and that consequently the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the secretariat no longer function. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference that we attended is, of course, dealing with a much more limited range of matters, as can be seen by comparing the Belfast Agreement with the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985.

It is important to bear in mind that cross-border co-operation, as it affects devolved matters, is now controlled by this Assembly through its representatives on the North/South Ministerial Council. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference deals with non-devolved matters and, even on those points, representatives of this House are present. It was an interesting experience, both for myself and for the Deputy First Minister, to be present throughout the meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference and to be able to observe and to make observations on all matters which were handled. We have today reported the significant parts of those discussions. Members will note how we were able to raise the issue of fuel duty, which is of very great concern to the people of Northern Ireland. We would not have had the opportunity to raise issues in that way under the ancien régime.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is the House going to allow a process at Question Time whereby planted questions— where answers have already been provided— will be countenanced?

Order. The Member, who is also a Member of another place, is very much aware that the issue of how Members may come upon the questions which they choose to ask is not a point of order.

With respect to that point of order, you did not answer it.

It is not a point of order. How Members come about the questions that they choose to ask is entirely a matter for them. The question of order is that the questioners are called by the Speaker to put their questions and that they are responded to by the Minister involved.

I do not know whether I have been properly tutored to ask this question, but it is of my own volition. I thank the First Minister and Deputy First Minister for their comments on these two very important bodies arising out of the Good Friday Agreement.

My question to the Deputy First Minister refers to the British-Irish Council. How does he see the relationship between the British-Irish Council and the Northern Ireland Assembly evolving in the months and years ahead? Secondly, how will the British-Irish Council work alongside, or how is it compatible with, the British-Irish Interparliamentary Council, which also exists at the moment?

I will take the second part of the question first. Ministers who attend British-Irish Council meetings will have a duty to report back to the Assembly, at which time Members will have the opportunity to pose questions, as Members are doing today. Members of the Assembly will have the opportunity, and will be encouraged, to participate in any interparliamentary activity arranged through the British-Irish Council. The elected institutions of all the members of the British-Irish Council are encouraged to develop interparliamentary links.

The British-Irish Council will consider how this issue can be addressed. It will be a matter for the respective elected institutions to deliberate upon, and the existing British-Irish interparliamentary body should also be consulted. It is one of those aspects of the British-Irish Council which I think should be encouraged. This is because the more parliamentary interconnection there is among the members of the Council, the more productive will be the understandings and agreements reached in the Council.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. A list of suggestions as to how Question Time should be conducted was distributed to Members. One of these was the possibility that other Members who were not the questioner might be able to speak. There was, however, no indication as to how they should demonstrate to the Speaker their anxiety to do so. Will this be done in the same way as in another place, where Members stand up to indicate their intention to speak, or will it be done by another method?

Members can indicate in the way described, or they can do so in other ways. For example, they could give an indication to myself or the Table Clerks in writing. Either method is perfectly acceptable.

My question is to the First Minister. Is it not a fact that the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference carries on from the Anglo-Irish Agreement? Is it not a fact, although not mentioned in his statement today, that very important matters are being discussed — matters which people in Northern Ireland would be concerned about? These are issues such as rights; policing, including the implementation of the Patten Report; criminal justice; the normalisation of security arrangements and practices; cross-border security co-operation; the victims of violence; prisons; drugs and drug trafficking; and broadcasting. And the Governments can propose a list of other subjects that can be brought before this body.

What size is this body’s secretariat? Where does it meet? What civil servants from the Assembly are in its secretariat? Can the First Minister tell the House if the Patten report was discussed and what was the consensus of opinion at the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference concerning the implementation of the report?

I refer the questioner to the comments I made earlier. We now have a new agreement, with a new Intergovernmental Conference and, consequently, a new secretariat. The matters that fall within the remit of the Intergovernmental Conference are those that are not devolved. The Member read out a list of non-devolved matters. It is quite clear that any matter that is not devolved can come within the purview of the Intergovernmental Conference.

In my statement I mentioned the areas that were going to form a programme of work for the Intergovernmental Conference: asylum and immigration, the European Union, social security, education, drugs and fiscal issues. These were the only issues that were discussed at the meeting. The important thing about the new arrangements is that representatives from this House will be present throughout the discussions. The other matters that the Member referred to were not discussed at the meeting of 17 December. If such matters are discussed at future meetings, we will report on them.

I asked the First Minister about the size of the secretariat, where it meets and whether civil servants from the Assembly are on it. I think I am entitled to an answer to these questions.

First Minister, do you wish to respond?

Mr Speaker, it is in your hands as to whether a Member can have more than one question at a time. The Anglo-Irish secretariat, established under the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985, no longer exists. The staff have been moved to other duties, and some of them have been moved to the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. I recommend to the Member that he pursue the question of the number of staff in the secretariat — which is not known to me — by asking that question in the appropriate place.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the First Minister to say that he is going to answer only one question? He has made a statement. In another place there is always opportunity for more than one question. It would be highly irregular if Members were to be muzzled by being restricted to asking one specific question.

I am not aware that the First Minister indicated that Members were permitted to ask only one question. The second part of Dr Paisley’s question may have slipped the First Minister’s mind, though it was put the first time. The First Minister has now answered that question and has indicated the possibility of exploring the matter further.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Dr Ian Paisley referred to the custom and practice in another place. When a ministerial statement is made, it is normal practice for the Speaker to call for questions. Never, in my experience, has the person called by the Speaker asked more than one question.

Indeed that is the case. The reason I permitted Dr Paisley to repeat what he had said earlier is that, in fairness to him, he had actually asked the question. The First Minister had not, perhaps, been in a position to respond immediately. With regard to how many legs a particular question has, most Members have shown a degree of creativity. In some cases the questions have been more like centipedes than three-legged stools. I shall try to keep the questions more restricted.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Surely Mr McGrady should remember the scriptural exhortation "Physician heal thyself", for he asked two questions.

I will not intrude on the question of theological quotations. However, on the issue of physicians, I may have the last word.

I welcome the statements, and I share some of the views put forward by Mr McGrady regarding the Interparliamentary Council. However, I note from the statements that the Northern Ireland Assembly Executive will take the lead on the issue of transport. Will this issue be dealt with on an "islands" basis, and will the need to deal with the A75 Stranraer-Dumfries road,which has such an important impact on Northern Ireland transport routes — be treated as a matter of urgency?

I thank the Member for the question. I agree that one of the benefits of the British-Irish Council is that we will have the opportunity of making suggestions in relation to matters that affect Northern Ireland people and business which are located in other places. The matter he raises was one of the issues we had in mind when we proposed the subject of transport. It is crucially important for business in the North of Ireland that this be looked at, and we will be raising the matter at the earliest sectoral meeting which involves transport.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May we ask the Deputy First Minister, since he holds a position in the Government of a part of the United Kingdom, to have the courtesy and decency to refer to this part of the kingdom by its proper title — Northern Ireland and not the North of Ireland? Surely by now he should have learned that and should at least have respect for this country and its people, not to mention this House.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It seems that raising a point of order is the only way I can make any reference to the point made unless, of course, you invite me to answer it as if it were a question.

If the Deputy First Minister wishes to take it as a question, then it shall be taken as such, and he may respond.

Thank you, Sir, for your indulgence. I take the point made by the Minister. I suppose terminology is determined by one’s environment. Let me put it this way: I have never had the experience of saying to my wife, or anyone else, that I am driving down to the Republic of Ireland to do some shopping. The words I use are always "I am going down South to do some shopping." I do shop in the South of Ireland, and I shop in Britain as well —

Where there is cheap petrol.

I take the point made by the Member, but I would have thought that one of the greatest ways of showing respect for the people of Northern Ireland, the North of Ireland — or whatever you want to call it — would be to be part of the collective responsibility which is working on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland, and I invite the Minister to join with us to show that respect and put it into practice.

I welcome these summit meetings; the fact that they took place is an important step forward for politics in Northern Ireland and on these islands. I know that there will be meetings between representatives from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, England, Isle of Man and Guernsey at executive and ministerial levels, but will there be the possibility, at any time, for Assembly Members from these areas to meet and co-operate?

It is important that there be co-operation on these islands at all levels of the decision-making process. That is why I am asking the First and the Deputy First Ministers if there is a possibility of interparliamentary meetings at this level.

I referred earlier to this matter. It is part of the thinking about the British-Irish Council. It was there during all stages of the negotiations, but it has never been fleshed out. It is a matter that I and the British-Irish Council want to encourage. Of course, it will be a matter for each member Parliament to decide, and I suggest, as there seems to be substantial interest in this, that the question of interparliamentary representation should be considered in depth by the Assembly so that we can then proceed to benefit from our relationships with all the other members of the British-Irish Council. The Good Friday Agreement made reference to an interparliamentary relationship with Dáil Éireann. These are not things to be feared; they are things that should be encouraged. As a member of the British-Irish interparliamentary body since its inception, I know that that body would be very keen to enter into discussions to enable us to shape and handle this very important relationship.

The First Minister said that one of the items added to the list of topics for discussion was fuel duty. He will be aware that the Northern Ireland haulage industry is facing annihilation because of gross disparity in the cost of diesel fuel and an outrageous difference in the cost of licensing. If something is not done about this urgently, there will be no indigenous Northern Ireland haulage industry left. I welcome the fact that this issue has been placed on a future and, I hope, urgent agenda.

In relation to the pig industry, which is also facing extinction, will the First Minister consider ensuring that the relationship between the regulations governing pig rearing and slaughter in the Republic and in Northern Ireland are brought into harmony so that pig producers in Northern Ireland are not disadvantaged and that, as soon as possible, slaughtering arrangements will be improved to give our pig producers a level playing field?

The Member mentioned two issues, and I will try to remember both of them in my response. Both issues are important. With regard to fuel duty and arrangements for health and safety in agriculture, the Member will recall that it was precisely for that reason that it was agreed by the Assembly that there be co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland on food safety. Schemes and an implementation body for food safety were agreed for precisely the reason that the Member has suggested, so I welcome his support for that objective that we have carried forward.

The fuel issue is, of course, a matter of considerable importance in a wide range of areas in the Northern Ireland economy, and it was for that reason that we raised it at the British-Irish Intergovernmental meeting. We were very glad that the British and Irish Governments both responded by including that issue on the list of areas for further work. The Member who raised the issue will, of course, recall that this issue was also debated in another place last Wednesday morning, and I was happy to hear the contributions made in that debate by the leader of the SDLP, Mr Hume, and several of my other parliamentary colleagues. I was sorry that the Member who has raised this issue now was unable to attend.

I thank the First and Deputy First Ministers for their report on the inaugural meeting of the British-Irish Council. Can they confirm that all parts of the British Isles are participating in that council, which in itself is a remarkable and positive development?

I can confirm participation by the following: the British Government, the Northern Ireland Executive Committee, the Scottish Executive, the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales, the Government of the Isle of Man, the Bailiwick of Guernsey, the Bailiwick of Jersey and the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

I welcome the meeting of the British-Irish Council. I am sure that everyone, certainly on this side of the House, is happy that yet another aspect of the Good Friday Agreement has finally been implemented, and we look forward to productive work arising out of the council. Given the Council’s importance, I would like to ask the Deputy First Minister what provision is being made to keep the Assembly fully informed of its work?

Ministers who attend the British-Irish Council will do what we are doing today, and that is report to the Assembly where Members will have the opportunity to raise questions. I stated previously, on at least one occasion, that Members will be encouraged to participate in any interparliamentary activity that is arranged through the British-Irish Council. I would also like to point out that it will meet in sectoral format as is required in relation to the issues that have been tabulated as matters for consideration during this session. Those range from drugs, which is the immediate one, to transport, where the lead responsibility rests with the Assembly, as well as the other matters that are in the report. This will involve different Ministers being in attendance at those meetings where the intention and requirement is that they will report, not just to the Executive but to the Assembly, in relation to the business that has taken place. That reporting may be undertaken through the First and Deputy First Ministers. Most Ministers might be encouraged to think that they could do a better job themselves, but whatever way it is done, it is important that the Assembly be reported to.

In presenting his report, the First Minister outlined what was in paragraph 5 of the notes from the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference inaugural summit meeting. Did he feel that he would be extending his statement to an unacceptable length when he failed to mention paragraph 6, which included something which is very near to the heart of the people of Northern Ireland, especially at this time, namely the matter of policing in Northern Ireland, including the implementation of the Patten Report? No doubt this issue will be referred to in the Intergovernmental Conference, as Dublin always interferes in Northern Ireland’s affairs. If the issue has been raised, or when it is raised, what view of the Patten Report will the First and Deputy First Minister express on behalf of the Assembly?

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