COMMITTEE FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)
Neighbourhood Renewal
6 November 2008
Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David Simpson (Chairperson)
Mr David Hilditch (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Mickey Brady
Mr Thomas Burns
Mr Jonathan Craig
Miss Michelle McIlveen
Mr Alban Maginness
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Witnesses:
Ms Margaret Ritchie ) Minister for Social Development
Ms Denise Ferguson ) Department for Social Development
Mr Tony McKibben )
The Chairperson (Mr Simpson):
Minister, Mr McKibben and Ms Ferguson, you are very welcome.
The Minister for Social Development (Ms Ritchie):
Thank you.
The Chairperson:
We have an hour for this session, and I appreciate that you have given us this hour. These are important subjects for everyone in this room and, indeed, for those further afield. We will go straight into the Minister’s presentation on the neighbourhood renewal scheme, and then we will go directly into the presentation on the draft Pensions (No 2) Bill.
The Minister for Social Development:
Will you take questions on both subjects together?
The Chairperson:
We will see how it goes; we may have to take some questions while you are present.
The Minister for Social Development:
Whatever suits you — as long as you guide me.
The Chairperson:
I will not put you wrong.
The Minister for Social Development:
I have no doubt about that.
Chairperson and members of the Committee, I welcome the opportunity to discuss neighbourhood renewal in person with you. I hope to address any concerns that you may have about the scheme’s future. I am joined by Mr Tony McKibben, who heads up the neighbourhood renewal sector, and by Ms Denise Ferguson.
As members know, I announced recently £7 million of funding for neighbourhood renewal in Belfast and £4 million for the programme in the north-west. Many members are concerned at the time that was taken to make those announcements, but I assure the Committee that that time was necessary. I am not prepared to write blank cheques for anything that is within my sphere of responsibility. Given that I left the making of individual decisions to officials, I needed to be sure that the proposed funding fitted with neighbourhood renewal policy objectives and that there was sufficient funding to complete the programme. I need to ensure that the limited resources that are available to my Department for neighbourhood renewal are used to deliver real and lasting change. I also need to be confident that funding will be targeted at those services that will address the long-term deprivation that the areas in question have experienced for too many years. I want to be assured that the actions of my Department make a lasting and sustainable difference to the lives of the residents of those areas — the 36 neighbourhood renewal areas throughout Northern Ireland.
Although I am delighted to have announced the funding, I know that many members are concerned about the commitment of other Departments to the neighbourhood renewal strategy. I share many of those concerns. Neighbourhood renewal is the Executive’s strategy for tackling disadvantage; it is not exclusive either to the Department for Social Development or to this Committee. It will succeed only if everyone in Government works together, alongside relevant statutory bodies, community organisations and — most importantly — the communities themselves. I remain committed to driving home the necessity of taking that partnership approach, and I appreciate the Committee’s recent actions to persuade other Departments and Ministers to deliver on that.
The Committee has raised concerns already about the transfer of responsibility for neighbourhood renewal to councils. I am glad that the majority of Committee members agree in principle with the transfer of operational responsibility for neighbourhood renewal to councils. I believe in strong local government. Delivery of neighbourhood renewal will place councils at the heart of the actions to lift communities out of deprivation.
My Department will continue to retain responsibility for the overall policy. The delivery of neighbourhood renewal is being proposed for transfer, which will be best achieved at local level. I have faith in all our local councillors to deliver.
I know that the Chairperson and Committee members have a range of issues that they want to discuss, and I welcome any comments, suggestions or questions that they may have.
The Chairperson:
Thank you, Minister. Given that your briefing was short, members can ask their questions now.
You acknowledged that the majority of Committee members have come to the realisation that neighbourhood renewal should be devolved to local councils. You also said that working together for delivery was the aim and that that was the ultimate goal for the 36 neighbourhood renewal areas. One of the main concerns that Committee members have and that I raised at a meeting of my local council on Monday night, is how the Department will be able to assure councils that there will be departmental buy-in to the scheme — if that cannot be attained at this level, how can it be achieved at council level?
The Minister for Social Development:
You will recall that when the Executive and the Assembly agreed on devolving all the functions of neighbourhood renewal to local government as part of the review of public administration (RPA), responsibility for the community-planning legislation, of which urban regeneration and neighbourhood renewal are a part, fell to the Minister of the Environment.
I understand that legislation that deals with community planning will place a clear statutory requirement on public bodies to participate in and support the community-planning process. A clear duty will be placed on councils to engage with local communities in the production and development of a community plan. Therefore, public bodies will be obliged through statute to deal directly with local councils.
The Chairperson:
Craigavon Borough Council, which is my local council, is going to recruit an officer to solely handle neighbourhood renewal. Are you saying that if that council, for example, establishes a subcommittee, it will be mandatory for the other agencies to attend its meetings and help to deliver on neighbourhood renewal?
The Minister for Social Development:
That is the intention of the community-planning legislation — statutory enforcement is its purpose. In the devolving down of neighbourhood renewal, who better to deal with it than local councillors and local council officers? That is because, as you know from Craigavon Borough Council, the scheme is very much local and area based.
The Chairperson:
I agree with that sentiment. My view is that local councils are the best place in which neighbourhood renewal can be dealt with. However, what is intended in theory does not always work out in practice, and that is a major concern.
The Minister for Social Development:
The statutory bodies will work in partnership with local councils, which will have a new statutory power of well-being to assist them in the delivery of community planning. As Committee members know, a host of committees has been established under the strategic leadership board that the Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) is promoting. All the parties have representation on that board and are working directly with it. I assume that the new transitional committees will also deal with neighbourhood renewal.
The Chairperson:
Will the legislation ring-fence the budgets for the neighbourhood renewal scheme?
The Minister for Social Development:
The legislation is obviously a matter for the Minister of the Environment. Those details are being worked out, and I am sure that you will have conservations with the Minister of the Environment about that matter. It is also my clear understanding that devolution from the Departments to local government can take place in that staff can be asked to work there because they have particular expertise in the area and because they can provide the necessary training to local government officers. I understand that those staff already work in close proximity with the appropriate district councils on neighbourhood renewal and urban regeneration in Belfast, the north-west and in the regional development offices. Therefore, I do not see a particular difficulty with that.
The Chairperson:
Does that mean that in that long answer, you are really saying no?
The Minister for Social Development:
Yes, and budgets will also go. The issue must be considered in the context of the opportunities that will be provided for local government and, more importantly, the ordinary person.
Ms Ní Chuilín:
I wish to make it clear that Sinn Féin is not opposed to the devolution of services at a local level. In theory, all the bodies are supposed to work together through the local neighbourhood renewal partnerships. However, a major concern is that more often than not, the Committee has heard the complaint that more of a bottom-up approach than a top-down approach has been taken and that the buy-in from statutory bodies has been disappointing. That is also one of the biggest complaints to have been made by Committee members. The experience is that people do not particiapte unless they are forced to do so by legislation.
The main concern is that unless budgets are transferred from the relevant Department, whether that is the Department for Social Development, the Department of the Environment, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM), the Department of Education or the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, there will merely be a redeployment of departmental staff. That will mean that the issue becomes about staff, rather than services. You said that the issue is not about jobs or about those who squeal the loudest; it is about services. Unless those services are resourced, they will be delivered on a piecemeal basis to communities that are very hard-pressed.
My further concern is the fear of a political carve-up. That will depend on how regulated and organised the council is in ensuring that the functions are equality-proofed. Rather than services being delivered on the basis of objective need, parts of Belfast may be organised so that each side of the community takes, for example, two services each. Such a division does not always meet the needs of any community, and that must be taken on board.
My other main point concerns the grade 2 posts that are due to be filled in March 2009. I wrote to all the Departments to ask about the position on neighbourhood renewal. I have received little response and nothing that would encourage me to think that anyone who was waiting on a Department to pick up their post in March 2009 will not still be waiting in March 2010. I have not seen any evidence of any organising or pulling together of Departments to see who will pick up those much-needed services, particularly in areas where there are mental-health issues, educational issues, issues around conflict and peace building and issues to do with design and youth.
The issue is about what has happened to those people’s posts and the services that they deliver. What negotiations are taking place to ensure that those people are getting redundancy packages? After all, they have entitlements, given that they have worked for a couple of years.
Were the amounts of £7 million and £4 million that you announced already in the budget, or are those additional amounts? Were those figures part of the departmental bid, and did you apply for additional money for neighbourhood renewal as part of the reallocation of internal bids? We have not seen copies of those. Chairperson, I appreciate your indulgence while I asked those questions.
The Chairperson:
I was going to say that all the questions have now been asked.
The Minister for Social Development:
Departmental buy-in is the most important factor in the delivery of neighbourhood renewal, which is an Executive-led strategy. Given that the strategy’s initial roll-out occurred in Derry and Limavady, I shall use the north-west as an example of how to achieve departmental buy-in, particularly with regard to category 2 projects. I wrote to various Ministers and received responses from the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Minister for Employment and Learning. I am still waiting for the Minister of Education to reply. On 14 August, I received an acknowledgement to my request; however, I am waiting for a substantive response from her that explains how funding will be provided for the projects that form part of the Department of Education’s quotient.
It is important to remember that at a local level, the health trusts, those involved in employment and skills, and other statutory bodies work together successfully. However, at higher levels, they do not work together. Therefore, any additional influence that this Committee or members of other relevant Committees might bring to bear on their party colleagues who are Ministers would be appreciated greatly.
On 10 March 2008, in my statement on neighbourhood renewal, I indicated that £60 million would be spent over the next three years. Of that money, £30 million — £10 million for each year of the comprehensive spending review — will be required for Belfast. The money that I announced on 15 October came from those funds.
Nevertheless, funding difficulties exist, and, in order to ensure that the Minister of Finance and Personnel was aware of that, in the June in-year monitoring round — in which no Department’s bids were recognised — and in the September in-year monitor round, I submitted bids for additional resources for the community sector.
Redundancies have an impact on areas wider than neighbourhood renewal and the Department for Social Development, and, although I am sympathetic, my — and my Department’s — main interest is in funding services on the ground. Building communities through mitigating disadvantage and deprivation is the most important aspect of neighbourhood renewal, and its impact on, and the improvement that it brings to, people’s lives will be the litmus test of its success. I am sure that everyone around this table would agree that people must benefit from neighbourhood renewal.
There must be statutory buy-in from councils seeking departmental compliance. Interestingly, the legislation is being developed by the Minister of the Environment and his Department, and statutory bodies will work in partnership with councils that have the new statutory power of well-being to assist them in delivering community planning. No matter what statutory provisions are in place, I would like to think that the Minister and the Department will ensure — and I have made this clear to the Minister — that there will be power sharing at all levels, not just between councillors at council level. Delivery must involve power sharing and partnership working in order to ensure that the strategy has an impact on a shared-community basis.
Resources will be transferred, and equality mechanisms are being devised as part of the human resource work strand.
Mr A Maginness:
I thank the Minister for attending today. I welcome Sinn Féin’s clarification about devolving neighbourhood renewal to local government; I had the impression that it was opposed to that measure.
Most importantly, on-the-ground services must be provided at a local level. The scheme is not simply about providing jobs for the sake of it. That would be entirely wrong. I ask the Minister to emphasise the provision of services in the implementation of the neighbourhood renewal scheme. Furthermore, different types of contracts are being allocated, but will you explain in broad terms what category 1 and category 2 contracts actually mean for the Belfast area? What type of contracts have been awarded recently?
The Minister for Social Development:
Category 1 contracts are led by DSD, and category 2 contracts require buy-in from other Departments. In the BRO, which is the Belfast Regeneration Office — I apologise for using such an abbreviation, but DSD has quite a few branches whose titles have been abbreviated — I announced on 15 October that there are 171 contracts, 45 of which are in category 1 and 58 of which are in category 2. Those contracts are worth £8·8 million, but some are still outstanding.
Contracts are put through rigorous economic appraisals that are subject to the guidelines set down by the Department of Finance and Personnel. All staff on the policy and operational sides have worked hard to get those out as quickly as possible.
In the north-west development office, which covers Derry, Strabane and Limavady, there are 10 contracts in category 1 and three in category 2, and those are worth £1·4 million. The total number of contracts is 46, but some remain outstanding.
In the regional development office, that is, the three sub-offices in Banbridge, Ballymena and Omagh, there are 35 contracts in category 1 and 31 in category 2. Those are worth £5·5 million. However, some contracts are still outstanding. Staff are working extremely hard on the rigorous nature of the economic appraisals, because it is important to ensure that money goes to services and that it has a beneficial impact on the lives of disadvantaged people.
Mr Burns:
Do you have full ministerial buy-in to the neighbourhood renewal scheme?
The Minister for Social Development:
Other Departments have different priorities, and that is a difficulty. It is important to emphasise that the programme is an Executive-led strategy, because it is multi-disciplinary and has an impact on people’s lives. The neighbourhood renewal scheme has an impact on the areas of health, employment and learning, social development, roads and poverty, so all Ministers must buy in to it. It is important to emphasise that it is an Executive-led strategy, and some responses remain outstanding. Therefore, any influence that individual Committee members could have on their Executive colleagues would be appreciated greatly.
I wrote to ministerial colleagues in February about the scheme, and they all responded giving a positive commitment to it. However, the outworkings of those responses have been slightly different. Executive colleagues also agreed targets, but I am awaiting responses on the delivery of those targets from some Ministers. It is important to have ministerial buy-in with respect to category 2 projects, because that is where other Departments’ money is required for the delivery of those projects in March 2009.
The Chairperson:
Before I ask the final question, you mentioned the Minister of the Environment. Should the DOE set up another group, or is the current mechanism with the ministerial group sufficient?
The Minister for Social Development:
I would have to give further consideration to that. However, undoubtedly, you will further discussions with the Minister of the Environment. If the Executive were to meet, it would be possible to discuss the issue, but this Committee must communicate strongly that there is Executive buy-in — people must see the scheme as an Executive-led strategy that will have a positive impact on people’s lives.
Miss McIlveen:
Thank you, Minister. What I wish to say has been mentioned already, particularly equality-proofing, economic appraisals, and allocations of funds. I have been approached by a group that has concerns, which are centred on the current equality guidelines on panel procedures, the timing of the release of funds, who determines which projects are given priority and why. Although I am not sure whether I should mention it, the example that was given to me concerns a regeneration group in west Belfast that received an offer of funding on 2 September. Some groups in north Belfast submitted applications in July and received notification only this week. Obviously, that puts their staff under a lot of pressure. They want to be sure that fair treatment is given to all the partners that are involved in the scheme.
The Minister for Social Development:
That point refers back to the original issue that was discussed in the Committee. I am a Minister with a large budget and many functions. The Department sets down policy and guidelines. Officials determined the contracts: I was never involved in the individual contracts. I wanted to ensure that services that would have a positive impact on people’s lives would be delivered. We were not going to issue contracts worth millions of pounds until we saw that there was going to be a good delivery of services. Therefore, the concentration was on services. Furthermore, we were not going to issue contracts blindly without seeing where the money was going. I believe that any Minister worth his or her salt would have done the same.
On 15 October, when I made my statement, many people arrived at the Belfast Regeneration Office and were issued with their contracts, which were signed and sealed. Other contracts have been issued over the past number of weeks. Those appraisals are subject to a very rigorous assessment because they have to represent good value for money, they have to ensure that the money will go to services and that it will have a positive impact on people’s lives.
The other area where things differ is that last year, the 36 neighbourhood renewal partnerships presented us with plans in which they outlined their priorities. Therefore, funding to the groups had to match the priorities that were identified in each of the plans. The contracts were assessed as quickly as possible and were prioritised as necessary. We still have 36 category 1 applications to deal with in Belfast, but staff are working very quickly to deliver on those. The approval of different projects may differ. There is no set time because there are different issues in those particular contracts, and very strict monitoring is in place to ensure that the groups have the capacity to deliver the contract and that the purpose of the contract is delivered fully on the ground.
Mr Brady:
Thank you for your presentation, Minister. You have mentioned that this is an Executive-led strategy, but do you accept that DSD is the driving force behind it?
The Minister for Social Development:
Clearly, neighbourhood renewal is the strategy for tackling disadvantage. It is not exclusively a strategy of the Department or even of the Committee. It will succeed only if everyone in Government, including statutory bodies, works with community organisations and the community itself. The Department for Social Development is therefore a partner in the process. We lead the strategy, but all Ministers must buy in to it. Neighbourhood renewal is an Executive strategy for tackling disadvantage, and there is an onus of responsibility on everyone in this Committee to ensure that their respective Ministers buy in to it and to ensure that I have a full response to letters that were sent to Ministers in July and August 2008. I again give the Minister of Education as an example.
The Chairperson:
Thank you, Minister.
The Committee Clerk is preparing a paper on this matter, because several issues must be decided upon.
The Committee Clerk:
I am preparing a report for the Committee on the implementation of the neighbourhood renewal strategy. That report is based on the consultation that was undertaken by the Committee over the summer. A paper on the next steps for the report will be presented at the Committee’s next meeting. Is the Committee content to wait for that paper and the publication of the report and the debate that will follow, or does it wish to respond separately to the Minister’s briefing?
The Chairperson:
I believe that the Committee should wait until the paper is completed. That would allow the Committee to include its tuppence worth. However, members must decide.
Ms Ní Chuilín:
The Committee may need to hear from the Minister again after the papers have been prepared. I was pleased that the Minister agreed to transfer the budget in respect of the relevant responsibilities. Before that, she provided long-winded answers that amounted to a negative response. Perhaps members can take some succour from that.
Something that has been bandied about a lot, and that the Committee must test, is the Minister’s assertion that she wrote to Departments, and — if my notes are correct — the Department of the Environment and the Department of Education did not reply.
The Committee Clerk:
I heard the Department of Education mentioned, but you may right. I will listen to the tape.
Ms Ní Chuilín:
I am not keen to do the Minister’s work for her, but in the preparation of that paper the Committee must obtain comments from those two Departments, as well the others.
The Chairperson:
Are members happy that the Committee writes to the Departments?
Members indicated assent.
The Chairperson:
Are members also happy to wait until the Committee Clerk brings back his paper?
Members indicated assent.
Mr Brady:
Have the costings for the action plans been completed? That was mentioned.
The Chairperson:
Thank you all very much.