COMMITTEE FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT  

OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)

Inquiry into Town Centre Regeneration

19 June 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David Simpson (Chairperson)
Mr David Hilditch (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Thomas Burns
Mr Fred Cobain
Mr Jonathan Craig
Ms Anna Lo
Mr Fra McCann
Miss Michelle McIlveen
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr Alban Maginness

Witnesses:
Mr Glyn Roberts ) Northern Ireland Independent Retail Association
Mr Joe Quail )

The Chairperson (Mr Simpson):
I welcome Donald McFetridge, Glyn Roberts — the newly appointed chief executive of the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association (NIIRTA) — and Joe Quail, one of the four millionaires who live in Banbridge. [Laughter.] We are pleased to have such distinguished people before us today.

Mr Glyn Roberts ( Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association):
Thank you for a second opportunity to brief the Committee on its inquiry into town centre regeneration, and congratulations to you, Mr Simpson, on your appointment as Chairperson of the Committee for Social Development.

You mentioned my colleague Joe Quail who, as you will be aware, is the managing director of Quail’s Fine Foods in Banbridge.

The NIIRTA has over 1,000 independent retailers who generate in excess of £500 million turnover each year in Northern Ireland. Its collective membership employs over 20,000 staff and makes a major contribution to the Northern Ireland economy. Most member stores are owned and managed by local families, rather than by large multinational companies with shareholders. They are crucial in providing local employment, and they act as a strong focal point in local communities.

Northern Ireland is a small business economy, and 98% of its businesses are small. The independent retail sector within those figures is the biggest subsector of that economy and plays a vital role as the backbone of Northern Ireland’s private sector.

We launched recently our report, ‘Nightmare on Every Street’, at the Assembly. It sets out our thinking on how the Northern Ireland Executive should support small shops and the development of our town centres.

Part of the report was written by Donald McFetridge, the head of retail studies at the University of Ulster. He predicts that there will be more than 700 shop closures in the next three to five years; a loss of more than 7,000 jobs; and the appearance of food deserts across Northern Ireland, if the Executive do not act. The report, which was launched at the Assembly, highlights why a new PPS 5 (planning policy statement) is required. Members will be aware from our last presentation that that planning policy statement is currently in draft format. It is with the Department of the Environment (DOE), and there is an onus on that Department to publish and implement it.

The policy framework, within which the Planning Service makes its decisions, is hopelessly out of date, and in the interim, irreparable damage has been done to town and village centres across Northern Ireland — including such areas as Antrim, Ballyclare, Ballycastle, Banbridge, Larne and Crumlin. Those towns are threatened by proposed major out-of-town — or edge-of-town — superstore developments. We face the prospect of the building of Ireland’s first ever Tesco Extra store at Bridgewater Park, which is a mile or two from Banbridge town centre. It will be the largest Tesco store on the island with an area of 130,000 sq ft.

Increasingly, those out-of-town developments are disproportionately large. Not only do they affect our member businesses, which, in the main, are grocery retailers, but they affect every retail outlet on the High Street. As members will know, the big multiples sell everything from electrical goods and clothes to insurance — even insurance brokers on the High Street are being affected by the large stores.

Despite the many misconceptions, our association is not against multiples: it is against out-of-town development.

Multiples create alternative town centres. The publication of PPS 5 would provide a level playing field by encouraging the development of town centres rather than unsustainable out-of-town development. The out-of-town locations chosen by multiples not only cause damage to the local economy and jobs but destroy the very character of our town and city centres. England had a similarly ill-thought-out policy to the current one here, and that resulted in 42% of small towns and villages no longer having a shop of any kind.

Our report refers to the finding of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Small Shops at Westminster that over 2,000 local shops close every year. That group’s report contains the startling prediction that by 2015 no independent retailers will remain in the UK. Importantly from an environmental perspective, the group calculated that the average person in England travels 893 miles a year to shop for food, and we are concerned that Northern Ireland is going down that road. Indeed, Main Street in Antrim is the perfect example of retail dereliction in Northern Ireland. The street has few shops and has largely been reduced to hosting taxi depots and Indian takeaways, but there are few retailers.

There is a genuine choice: do we want town centres that are full of shoppers and vitality or huge one-stop grey boxes on the outskirts of towns and surrounded by huge car parks? The National Retail Planning Forum carried out definitive research on the impact of the opening of 93 superstores in England and Wales, and it concluded that every superstore that opens in an out-of-town location results in the net loss of 276 jobs within a 15 km radius. Most are lost from local retail outlets, and it is important to point out that many of the big out-of-town shopping centres are staffed largely by part-time workers.

As all MLAs will appreciate, it is important to note that many small retailers provided much-needed employment and investment throughout the dark days of the Troubles. In a period of new political stability and prosperity, they are concerned that their futures are under threat, because the planning system is out of date and PPS 5 has not been introduced. In a six-year period, the Department of the Environment granted planning permission for in excess of 8·5 million sq ft of retail space, which is 5 sq ft for each man, woman and child in Northern Ireland. In the same period, it rejected only one application. Northern Ireland currently exports revenue of more than £750 million from its economy to the bank accounts of the large multiples.

Under the existing very weak planning policy, major retailers can come up with every possible excuse for town centre sites being unsuitable. If their proposal is on a large enough scale and figures are produced to prove the demand and available income, multiples are able to argue their case. The Northern Ireland Executive cannot claim to support local small businesses while allowing the current weak and out-of-date planning policy to remain, because it devastates not only the economy but the community and the environment.

The wider policy framework for town centres is not in our report. We and our colleagues in the Association of Town Centre Managers, with whom we have an excellent working relationship, consider that it is incumbent on the Department for Social Development (DSD) to establish a panel of advisers to hold regular discussions on urban regeneration and the prospects for our towns and cities. The panel should include economists, property market specialists, retailers and town centre managers.

It is crucial not only that we invest in town centers, but that we ensure that we have a strong network of town centre managers. Over the years, there has been a reduction in town centre managers from around 23 to around 16. That has been a result of the removal of funding — as members will be aware, some of those posts were funded by European money — or of the councils having relabelled them as economic development officers.

Greater priority must be given to the establishment of town centre partnerships, such as those that exist in Ballymena and in half a dozen other towns in Northern Ireland. On a recent visit to Ballymena, I was struck by how well such partnerships operated with local retailers, councillors, and DSD and Department for Regional Development (DRD) officials on their boards. Such partnerships are important because they bring together all the key players that are necessary to make town centres successful.

The concept and the recognition that our town centres play a vital role in Northern Ireland’s economic activity through job and wealth creation, not to mention community cohesion, has been overlooked due to the lack of joined-up government. Historically, Northern Ireland has failed to recognise the value of core town centres, and there has been a lack of co-ordinated action by statutory bodies, such as the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI), the Department for Social Development, the Department of the Environment and the Department for Regional Development.

We must adopt an holistic approach that is based on an integrated town centre strategy that has business-development, training, marketing, promotion, property-development and environmental-improvement components. The Executive should consider the Association of Town Centre Managers’ (ATCM) recommendation of having a town centre regeneration agency to champion our town centres and to ensure that the Executive co-ordinate their policies and that investment and funding become higher priorities.

In conclusion, given the importance of the independent retail sector as a major economic driver in town centres, a robust PPS 5 must be published. While PPS 5 remains unpublished, it effectively ties one hand of the Department for Social Development behind its back in its efforts to regenerate town centres.

I thank the Committee for giving us its time, and I look forward to members’ questions.

The Chairperson:
Thank you very much. Mr Quail, do you wish to say anything at this stage?

Mr Quail ( Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association):
I thank the Committee for the opportunity to speak. Earlier, the Chairperson mentioned scones he could build houses with; I can tell him that local businesses cook food every day that is fresh and tastes better. We have fantastic town centres, and, if we do not want them to end up like those in England and the rest of the UK, we must look after our bakers, butchers and fishmongers, so that our food is fresh and provides better nutrition for our local communities. We must look after people who do not have cars and cannot go to out-of-town shopping centres; they comprise about 23% of the population. It is an important issue, and the Committee is doing good work. We must support local towns.

The Chairperson:
Thank you very much, gentlemen. Several members have indicated that they wish to ask questions. For the record, I declare an interest in the Bridgewater Park development at Banbridge, which Mr Roberts mentioned in relation to a Tesco application. As the MP for the area, I have been involved in that matter. I will not mention it further.

Mr Roberts, there is a train of thought that Northern Ireland has about 1·7 million or 1·8 million people and that out-of-town shopping malls — to use American terminology — will find their level. Only so many of them can be built in Northern Ireland, and there is a growing population. I suppose that, were the developers of such shopping malls here, they would give another spin to your argument. How are we to achieve the right balance between getting the big brand names into towns while maintaining the existing independent traders? How will councils, in particular, make their decisions? Councils across Northern Ireland welcome development and investment into their areas, as it helps with their overall issues with rates and so on.

Mr Roberts:
It is important that consumers can choose from a variety of different retail outlets.

It is essential that there is variety in town centres.

We believe that multiples should work with town centres and invest in what currently exists. There is currently a Tesco store in Banbridge. When a multiple locates to a town centre, it is always good for the town centre because it generates footfall for other retailers. My colleague Joe will expand on that. Other retailers become a player in the town centre. Therefore, we take the “town centre first” approach.

Increasingly, multiples put forward plans that are, effectively, so big that there is no possibility that they could be located in town. We believe that they do so deliberately. Although I do not wish to harp on too much about Banbridge, the situation is that the current Tesco store in the town centre will be expanded from 30,000 sq ft to 60,000 sq ft. Local traders have no objection to that at all.

That returns to our point that, essentially, PPS 5 creates a level playing field on which multiples can locate here and independent retailers can thrive and make a huge contribution to the economy. If you consider the whole issue of tourism, retail, obviously, has an important part to play in that. Tourist shoppers will not come here if the same stores are available in their towns and cities. There must be diversity of retailing, not only in food, but in all types of specialist retailers, such as independent bookshops. That diversity must be brought back.

Officials in Belfast City Council have told me that the big thrust there, as Mr Cobain and Mr Maginness will testify, is to try to get some of those independent retailers back into Belfast city centre and to try to ensure that visiting shoppers are offered a diversity of retailers. That is our position. We want councils to play a strong role in that. That is why we are big supporters of town centre partnerships, in which the council, DSD, retailers and so on can get involved and work together to build up and regenerate town centres. That is an important role.

The review of public administration (RPA) is still some way down the road. With the powers that councils already have, and the more extensive powers that will come to them, they will play an enhanced role in regeneration. They will take the lead. Perhaps, some degree of power will be taken away from DSD and put into the hands of local councils. That could well be a positive development. Our members want to be part of that process.

The Chairperson:
You mentioned in your answer that it was important to try to encourage developers and brand names into town centres. One difficulty during the past several years has been town centres’ infrastructure. During the past couple of years, and on a continuing basis, public realm works have been carried out through councils. What input has your organisation had in the public realm with different councils in order to accommodate and facilitate other development in the area, especially on parking and such issues?

Mr Roberts:
Parking is becoming an increasingly big issue. When I visited Ballymena recently, I was struck at how good the town’s parking facilities were. In some car parks there is a small charge; it is just 30 pence an hour. That brings into question DRD’s policies in particular. In one sense, it reiterates the problem that we have highlighted previously to the Committee; the fact that three different Departments — DSD, DRD and DOE — are responsible for planning. At times, there are many agencies and cross-departmental groups to work with in order to try to get things done and deal with problems in town centres. There are almost too many players.

Car parking is a key issue. It is also important that there is a good public-transport system. For many people who are elderly, have mobility issues or are single parents, travelling to out-of-town facilities is not an option because public transport is not good enough. Those people rely on their local shops.

It is a matter of getting across the importance of the holistic approach to which we referred.

That is why DSD should work with town centre agencies to bring together other Departments with the private sector and so on. The key point that the Committee’s inquiry should consider is how to get all the players together to work for the benefit of town centres.

Ms Ní Chuilín:
I welcome both witnesses. Have you discussed the links between town and village regeneration and the provision of social and affordable housing?

Mr Roberts:
That is an important issue. There has been a big thrust to get more people living in Belfast city centre, and the issue of social housing will be part of that. Retailing is an important aspect of any town centre, as is the night-time economy and getting people to live in the city, town and village centres. Historically, because of the Troubles, that was not an option. However, now that all that is behind us, it is important to address the issue.

It should not simply be a matter of building expensive flats; real investment in social housing is also important. I refer back to the point that I made previously about a joined-up approach being required, which includes working with the Housing Executive and the housing associations to ensure that there is adequate social housing. Given the community role that our members play, that issue is crucial, because the local shop, like the local post office, is an important focal point. Our members pride themselves on their role in the community and their understanding of their customers; therefore, it is important for us to address a lot of those issues about housing. It is a crucial part of regeneration.

My personal view is that we should consider the experience of areas in which developers who built private flats had to set aside a portion of the site for social housing.

Ms Ní Chuilín:
What are your views on the suggestion that — owing to a lack of clarity — towns and villages are selected for regeneration at random by DSD?

Mr Roberts:
You are right; DSD is more active in some towns than others. For example, DSD is heavily involved in the regeneration of areas such as the Cathedral Quarter and the north-west region of Belfast city centre.

Perhaps the key to addressing the issue is to give the local authorities more responsibility for urban regeneration and town centre regeneration. Obviously that would have implications as powers would have to be devolved to local councils from the Department for Social Development. I understand that the Minister of the Environment indicated that that might be an option for local councils in the future. Given that locally elected representatives know the areas better than a departmental official who may have been drafted in, it would be better to have them in the driving seat.

Mr Hilditch:
I declare an interest as a director of Carrickfergus Development Company. I thank the witnesses for their presentation. Banbridge has been cited as an example of some the issues that have been discussed. At one stage, wearing another hat, I heard a presentation from a town centre manager of Banbridge. At that stage, the Outlet just outside Banbridge was seen as a positive development as it provided visitors and increased the footfall in the area. That view now appears to have been reversed. Is that change of attitude based on the type of new developments?

Mr Quail:
The Outlet is a group of discount stores. It is difficult to assess the number of people who have come into the town as a result of shopping at the Outlet. I do not feel that they have come into the town; the Outlet is perhaps a one-stop shop. That is what we have been worried about when considering out-of-town development. If a development such as the Outlet had been built in the town, a greater influx of footfall would have resulted to both sides. I live in Banbridge, and I have been to the Outlet about three times. Banbridge has great links as it is on the main corridor between Belfast and Dublin, so a phenomenal infrastructure is already in place. If the Outlet had been developed in the town centre, we would have had a greater success story.

Mr Hilditch:
Do you see any positivity in the future?

Mr Quail:
People ask whether there has been a big influx of people. Figures show that between 30% and 40% of footfall at the Outlet is from the South. Given that we have a café and a food shop, I would have expected to have seen much more of that at our businesses, but I see only two or three Southern customers a week, which is low. When I ask them why they are in Banbridge, they say that they are there for the good clothes shops that already exist, not for the discount shops. Customers drive to the Outlet and stay there. If development is to be encouraged throughout Northern Ireland, it must be in conjunction with the successful businesses that already exist.

Mr Roberts:
Although problems are associated with the Outlet, the straw that broke the camel’s back was Tesco’s application. The range of products that Tesco sell in some of its big stores in England is known as class-1 retailing and includes everything from coffins to cradles. That type of scenario in an out-of-town store sucks the life out of town centres. There are similar concerns in towns such as Ballyclare, Crumlin and Larne that the planning applications that are going ahead will have implications for existing retailers. We do not want special treatment from the Executive; we are simply asking for a level playing field in the planning system to ensure that development by the multiples is sustainable. Some of the planning applications for out-of-town development by the multiples such as Tesco and Sainsbury’s are not in any way sustainable.

Mr Hilditch:
You said that Ballymena was an example of good practice in partnership. In Northern Ireland, legislation does not exist for Business Improvement Districts (BIDs). Is the partnership in Ballymena based loosely on the BIDs system, and would you welcome such legislation?

Mr Roberts:
I understand that some work has been done in Ballymena on, for instance, Christmas lighting. Some of the local retailers put money up for that. The problem generally with the BIDs system is that resentment is created when some businesses put money in and some do not, yet the businesses who do not invest still benefit from environmental improvements to the town such as greater lighting or trees. Businesses are gravely concerned that they already pay the highest electricity costs in the UK, along with other issues and the credit crunch, which also have an impact. Perhaps consideration should be given to the issue, but everyone has to contribute, not just a few.

Mr Hilditch:
Do you agree with pedestrianization?

Mr Roberts:
The jury is out on that. It has worked in some areas; I do not know what my colleague Joe Quail would think if Banbridge were to be pedestrianised.

Mr Quail:
Good parking would be needed, and a lot of investment would be needed for pedestrianization. People often say that bicycle use should be encouraged, but public transport has a long way to go before pedestrianization can be considered.

Mr Burns:
I declare an interest as a member of Antrim Borough Council. This is a big issue in the South Antrim constituency, because Tesco has applied for planning permission for stores in Ballyclare, Newtownabbey and Crumlin. I would like to hear what you have to say about out-of-town stores, edge-of-town stores and stores situated in town centres. A tremendous amount of space must be provided for car parking at such stores. Free car parking is provided at the big out-of-town stores, but it becomes more expensive as one get closer to the town centres.

Shoppers seem to want the best of both worlds. They want to retain local shops, such as the butchers and the bakeries, but they also want to do their main shopping at the larger outlets.

Mr Roberts:
The definitions are set down in existing planning regulations. We recognise that there is demand for stores such as Tesco and Sainsbury’s, and we have no problem with that. An ASDA has opened in Ballyclare recently, which is in Mr Burns’ constituency. The other traders have worked alongside ASDA, and that has helped to generate footfall. However, Tesco now wants to buy the old FG Wilson site and build an edge-of-town store, but Ballyclare is a substantial market town, and it already has an ASDA.

A 46,000 sq ft Tesco store has been proposed for Crumlin, which is a small village that already suffers from traffic congestion. Some local people seem to want the store to be built, but they also want to keep the local shops. Do we want to reach a point where we will have to drive to an out-of-town store to buy a pint of milk and a loaf of bread? A balance must be struck, so that local butchers, bakeries, grocery shops, and so on, can coexist with the multiples. There is enough room for everyone, but it comes back to the question of PPS 5 providing a level playing field and encouraging the multiples to invest in our town centres, rather than in edge-of-town or out-of-town developments.

I have spent a lot of time in many of those areas, and the councils there would love to have the diversity of retailers that exists in places such as Banbridge. It is a wonderful asset to have, particularly when more people want to buy local meat and poultry and where the multiples have a poor record in providing local produce. Our members are committed to sourcing local produce, and local retailers want to source and sell local produce. Our members also have a real commitment to serving the community and to high levels of customer service, which one does not get with the multiples. Therefore, if there were a level playing field, our members could compete with stores such as Tesco and Sainsbury’s.

Our members have many unique selling points, but a level playing field must exist, as that will help our sector to grow, and it will be good for the economy, tourism and, in particular, the environment, which is another aspect that has not been highlighted. Our colleagues in Friends of the Earth strongly support our view that every time someone goes to an out-of-town shopping centre, they have to use their car. That contributes to the carbon footprint and to congestion, and — as has been mentioned already — our road and rail infrastructures need massive investment. Therefore, out-of-town shopping does not help on a range of fronts.

Mr Quail:
When policies in England were in such a state that they allowed for lots of out-of-town shopping centres to be built, all the supermarkets did just that. However, when they were told that they could no longer do that, they realised that demand still existed and they moved back to the high street. It is a chicken-and-egg situation. A moratorium on building in out-of-town locations would solve the problem quickly.

Mr Burns:
I do not want it to seem as though we are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but the multiples have submitted planning applications for many locations before PPS 5 has been published. Therefore, many edge-of-town or out-of-town stores will be built.

Mr Roberts:
You have made an important point. Multiples are using the limbo situation to make as many planning applications as possible while the existing, very weak, planning policy is in place. We are very clear that if PPS 5 were published, there is no way that the Banbridge store would get off the drawing board. Developers and multiples are using this period to try and get as many applications through as possible, and that is why the new Minister of the Environment must publish PPS 5 as soon as possible.

The Chairperson:
Before I call the next member to speak, I ask Glyn and Joe to make their responses reasonably brief, because time is running on and the Committee is still to hear a presentation from another organisation.

Mr F McCann:
The Chairperson probably made that comment because he knows I can be a bit long-winded at times.

Mr Cobain:
Do not disappoint us.

Mr F McCann:
Thank you, Fred.

Mr Roberts, you talked to the Committee recently about the closure of post offices — it must seem to you that every time you come to the Assembly, it is to discuss another blow to town centres or villages and the impact that developments have on them.

The Housing Executive has been making a big play about the living over the shop (LOTS) scheme. How has that scheme impacted on towns and villages? Should it be extended?

Mr Quail:
I live over a shop and it is great, so I would be all for it — I hope that that is a quick enough answer.

Mr Roberts:
The scheme is important, but to achieve that scenario we need robust town centres that are filled with local retailers. Another reason why we need a proper planning system that prevents large-scale out-of-town developments is that those are detrimental schemes such as the LOTS scheme. We need vibrant town centres with people living in them — living above shops — and we need to develop the night-time economy. All of that is important to a town centre, and retail is an important element of that. Again, all roads lead back to PPS 5, but the LOTS scheme is a welcome development.

Mr F McCann:
Earlier, you spoke about towns that are dying in front of us. Are there any towns for which there is no way back? Every town and village has its own strategy for dealing with regeneration, but fighting to retain a village or town centre is the common thread running through most of those strategies. Does NIIRTA try to find a common approach for dealing with this problem, or are towns and villages left to produce and run their own strategies?

Mr Roberts:
We are very concerned about Antrim, where the main street is, effectively, a retail ghost town. Antrim Borough Council is very supportive of the Junction One development, and, as Mr Burns would agree, Antrim town needs major investment in order to regenerate it. Other areas — such as Lurgan, for instance — are really struggling. However, in saying that, Lurgan has a very active town centre with active traders who, in an organisation called Lurgan Forward, are working hard to try and turn the situation around.

Our members generally get involved in local chambers of commerce, and they work with the councils. For example, Banbridge Traders Association works very closely with the town centre manager there. It is important that we have a good network of town centre managers and town centre partnerships. Those networks can bring all of the players together; including the Housing Executive, the police and all of the people who are needed to make a success of town centres.

We also need to look at real investment in town centre managers. A very good system operates in Belfast city centre, where there is an excellent team. However, where there are no town centre managers — such as in Antrim and other towns — we need real investment in such activity. Town centre partnership is a model that is good for towns.

Mr A Maginness:
I take this opportunity to congratulate Mr Simpson on his appointment. I also pay tribute to the outgoing Chairperson, Gregory Campbell, for his work.

I understand what Mr Roberts said about PPS5 and the need for it to be updated. I also understand the need for a definitive position in relation to the issues and that there is a planning vacuum. However, such a vacuum should be filled by the planning appeals commission (PAC). What is PAC’s position? Have you been following what it has been doing in relation to planning applications? It is the PAC’s role to fill the gap where there is controversy and lack of policy. However, it may be that the PAC is intent on supporting out-of-town developments in the absence of a revised PPS5.

Mr Roberts:
A reform of our planning system is long overdue, because there are a number of problems with it. In Crumlin, for example, the Planning Service did not carry out a retail impact assessment. We thought that that was very remiss. There are other situations in which important decisions are taken under article 31 of the Planning ( Northern Ireland) Order 1991. Under that provision, the Minister takes the decision, which was certainly the case in Banbridge.

It is important that retail planning powers remain with the Department of the Environment and are not devolved to local councils. Retail planning has huge implications beyond local authority boundaries, and it is important that those powers are set aside. The review of public administration will have huge implications for the Planning Service across the board. However, we would like retail planning powers to be retained by the Department.

Mr Craig:
Mr Roberts, you referred to a Tesco store in Banbridge that is planning to double in size. Something similar is happening in my area. What is the optimal size for a development such as that in a town centre? Also, does it matter what breadth of facilities it offers? For example, if it were solely a food store, rather than a superstore that sells almost everything, would it still be a threat to the rest of the town centre?

What are your views on someone building a mall in the middle of a town centre? Would that drain people away from the main streets of the town?

Mr Quail:
The Tesco proposal for the store in Banbridge is to increase the size of the store from 30,000 sq ft to 60,000 sq ft. That would not have much of an impact because one can go into any of their stores, and they are selling televisions, white goods, etc. The size of the stores will only increase by so much, and I do not envisage Tesco building a 130,000 sq ft store in Banbridge.

What you find whenever you go into the multiples is that they have a huge range of stuff; however, when it comes to the specialist store, it is not the same. I looked at the Tesco store at Knocknagoney, just to see what 60,000 sq ft store looked like. There were lots of goods, but it was very difficult to say what extras such a store would offer.

As regards a mall in a town centre, as long as it is in the town centre then it is up to us, as business people, to compete. If the development were in the town centre, and if we had a good business, we could compete. We are not asking for special treatment.

Our company has changed a lot. My great-grandfather started with a butcher’s shop 100 years ago. The business is now a lot bigger. Everyone has to change. Nobody is against change, but let us change together as a community. I am a great believer in economics, and that if you have a good business, it will work.

Mr Roberts:
When multiples locate in town centres, it increases the footfall for our members. The bulk of the shopping carried out with our members consists of five or six items; it is not the big weekly shop. The presence of the multiples adds to that footfall. Victoria Square, in Belfast, is a good development. The way that it has been designed, with its entrances and exits, is good for Belfast city centre and complements the area, and our members in the city centre have seen an increase in their footfall as a result.

The multiples have an important role to play. What we are saying to them is: invest in our town centres and work with existing town centres rather than create alternative town centres. Some of the multiples have changed. For example, Tesco Local stores, which are much smaller, are an attempt by Tesco to get into our market. Marks and Spencer is moving more in the direction of smaller, food-based stores, and Sainbury’s has bought up Curley’s.

The multiples can, therefore, change and adapt. Looking at the size of Tesco’s annual profits, it would be a minor adjustment for the company to have to invest in town centres and not have gigantic stores on the edge of towns. Doing that would not make a bit of difference to its profits.

The Chairperson:
Thank you very much.