COMMITTEE FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)
Charities Bill
10 April 2008
Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David Hilditch (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Mickey Brady
Mr Thomas Burns
Mr Fred Cobain
Ms Anna Lo
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Miss Michelle McIlveen
Witnesses:
Mr Kieran Doyle ) Department for Social Development
Mr Seamus Murray )
The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Hilditch):
The Department for Social Development is represented by Seamus Murray and Kieran Doyle; you are very welcome. We will begin the session by going through the amendments that were discussed at last week’s meeting. The Committee is to agree the wording of the proposed amendments. Gentlemen, do you have anything to add on those proposed amendments, or are you happy to proceed?
Mr Seamus Murray (Department for Social Development):
We are happy to proceed.
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee recommends to the Assembly that clause 2 be amended as agreed between the Committee and the Department. Does the Committee agree to the text of the amendment?
Members indicated assent.
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee recommends to the Assembly that clause 3 be amended as agreed between the Committee and the Department. Does the Committee agree to the text of the amendment?
Members indicated assent.
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee recommends to the Assembly that clause 16 be amended as agreed between the Committee and the Department. Does the Committee agree to the text of the amendment?
Members indicated assent.
The Deputy Chairperson:
We will now continue with the formal clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Charities Bill.
Clauses 74 to 86 agreed to.
Clause 87 ( Persons disqualified for being trustees of a charity)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee sought a possible amendment to clause 87 to include the disqualification of trustees who had been removed from office in other jurisdictions in which charity legislation exists.
Mr Murray:
Under clauses 87(7)(e) and 87(7)(f), trustees who are disqualified in England and Wales, and Scotland, will also be disqualified in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland’s legislation has not yet been enacted, so parity with it could not be included in the Bill until that legislation is in place. However, the Minister for Social Development, Margaret Ritchie, met the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Éamon Ó Cuív, last month about ensuring consistency in the operation of legislation between North and South. That process will continue; on 2 May, we will meet officials from the South and have further discussions with them. We will seek to ensure that the exchange of information on trustee disqualification will be taken forward in Northern Ireland.
The situation outside the UK and Ireland is perhaps more difficult in that the interpretation of the concept of charity and charity legislation is diverse. Legislation in other countries that defines a charity does not equate with that of European countries so it is difficult to have that arrangement. However, the UK and Ireland forum, and the international charity regulators forum, which shares information on issues to do with trustees, is a possible solution to that.
The Deputy Chairperson:
Is the Department content that the legislation can be amended when the legislation in Ireland is enacted?
Mr Murray:
A possible amendment would take that on board. The proposed legislation is the best that can currently be done. As we move forward with the Republic of Ireland, we will look for either a change to our legislation or a memorandum of understanding between the two Departments.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 87 agreed to.
Clauses 88 to 95 agreed to.
Clause 96 (Winding up)
Mr Murray:
Clauses 96 to 104 deal with charitable companies. As was previously flagged up to the Committee, the introduction of the Companies Act 2006 across the UK has implications for the Charities Bill, not only in Northern Ireland but across the UK. In the majority of cases, that part of the Charities Bill will make technical changes to update references in the Companies Act 2006 from the Companies ( Northern Ireland) Order 1986. It will bring parity with England, Scotland and Wales on the impact of the 2006 Act on charities legislation.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 96 agreed to.
Clauses 97 to 121 agreed to.
Clause 122 ( Power to transfer all property of unincorporated charity)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee sought an amendment to clause 122 to provide for an exception for a transfer of designated land that has a very low value.
Mr Murray:
We have discussed that proposed amendment with the Minister, and we have taken on board the concerns of the Committee. There is a degree of value in the deregulation of that. The Department proposes an amendment to clause 122(1)(b) to include
“or has designated land of a low value, and the Commission has been notified prior to the transfer”.
That would provide for designation to a small charity that holds land to effect a transfer. That amendment is subject to advice from the Office of the Legislative Counsel, for which we are currently waiting.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, subject to the Committee being satisfied with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, put and agreed to.
Clause 122, subject to the Committee being content with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, agreed to.
Clauses 123 to 126 agreed to.
Clause 127 (Power of unincorporated charities to spend capital: general)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee sought a possible amendment to clause 127 to consider a point that was made by the Charity Commission for England and Wales in relation to endowment funds.
Mr Murray:
The Department discussed the matter with colleagues on the Charity Commission for England and Wales and with the Office of the Legislative Counsel. The recommendation is that we wait for amendments to English legislation to see how those are enacted. After that, we should consider making changes to the legislation rather than making a change now.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 127 agreed to.
Clauses 128 and 129 agreed to.
Clause 130 (Regulation of public charitable collections)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee expressed concern that clauses 130 to 148 in Chapter 1 of Part 13 do not apply to Internet funding and asked the Department to provide information on how that is regulated in other jurisdictions.
Mr Murray:
Work on Internet fund-raising is evolving. It is extremely difficult to regulate, and any regulation of the Internet is difficult in itself. The Department has discussed the matter with other charity regulators and is compiling advice and guidance. The Institute of Fundraising covers Great Britain, and it issued a code of practice on Internet fund-raising that is available to charities in Northern Ireland.
When the charity commission for Northern Ireland is established, the Department intends to consider Internet fund-raising and issue appropriate guidance based on best practice elsewhere. At this stage, it is not possible to create an amendment that would have any impact.
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee is content that regulations on Internet funding are not appropriate at this stage.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 130 agreed to.
Clauses 131 to 133 agreed to.
Clause 134 (Restrictions on conducting door to door collections)
Mr Murray:
Fairly late in the day, the Committee received correspondence on permits for public collections from the Association of Charity Shops.
The Deputy Chairperson:
Does the correspondence relate to clause 134?
Mr Murray:
It also relates to other clauses in Chapter 1. The Association of Charity Shops expressed concern about the permit requirements in Northern Ireland. The Department had further discussions with the association and with the Charity Commission for England and Wales. The flexibility in the current legislation allows the requirements for permits to vary, and such variation can be applied to charity shops that carry out door-to-door collections. Therefore, the Department does not consider that an amendment is required to the legislation.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 134 agreed to.
Clauses 135 to 141 agreed to.
Clause 142 (Applications for permits to conduct public charitable collections)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Association of Charity Shops expressed concerns about permit requirements. The association’s proposed amendment to clause 142(1) is to add the words “in a public place” after “public charitable collection”. The association claims that that would allow the proposed amendment to clause 134 to be made, and it would bring the provisions of Part 13 into line with the provisions of the Charities Act 2006 that apply in England and Wales. The new wording would also mirror the wording in clause 143(1). The Committee has already agreed to clause 134.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 142 agreed to.
Clauses 143 to 149 agreed to.
Clause 150 (Professional fund-raisers, etc. required to indicate institutions benefiting and arrangements for remuneration)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Department has had sight of the submission from the charity shops that was tabled this morning.
Mr Murray:
Clause 150 has a twin purpose. It protects the public by ensuring the accountability of charitable collections, including door-to-door collections, such as those that use black bags. It also protects charities from bogus collections.
The potential abuse of door-to-door collections, or black bag collections as they have become more commonly known, has attracted much media attention and some political interest. Therefore, the clause is targeted at that issue.
The Department noted and considered the concerns of the Association of Charity Shops, having received its submission only today. We studied the submission alongside the legislation as drafted. The association recommends that a leaflet be submitted to the individual householder when a black bag collection is being carried out. The leaflet would outline how the householder could find out more information on the details of the collection from another media: perhaps through a telephone call to the charity or electronically on the organisation’s website.
The Department’s view is that the twin aspects of accountability for the charity and the public are provided for in the legislation. Any leaflet could detail the nature, timing and purpose of the collection and the name of the charity responsible. Therefore, the legislation as drafted is sufficient to provide dual accountability in Northern Ireland.
The Department is aware of ongoing discussions on the matter between the Association of Charity Shops and the Office of the Third Sector in England and briefly discussed the issue with them this morning. We will keep an eye on how the situation develops. However, at present we do not consider that the legislation needs to be amended to ensure that public accountability is maintained.
Mrs McGill:
Seamus, you commented on the submission from the Association of Charity Shops. Why did that arrive when the Committee is considering the clauses? Is it a late submission?
The Committee Clerk:
Last night, David Moir contacted me to say that the Association of Charity Shops had only realised the implications of clauses 150 and 151. He asked whether he could submit a document. Given that the Committee was due to discuss the clauses today, and that it is important to consider any serious concerns that the association may have, I agreed to accept the submission and circulate it to the Committee.
Mr Murray:
None of the charity shops raised the issue during the public consultation process, and the Association of Charity Shops engaged with the Office of the Third Sector within the past three weeks. Only recently, therefore, was the issue also raised in England and Wales.
Mrs McGill:
Is the issue important? Are we really discussing the matter as such? It is extremely late to be doing so.
The Committee Clerk:
I received the submission only last night. I could not circulate it to members more quickly than I did. The Department also had sight of the submission and has provided an explanation. Therefore, it is for the Committee to decide whether it is content with the Department’s explanation and, for the protection of other charities and the public, with the legislation as drafted.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 150 agreed to.
Clauses 151 to 158 agreed to.
Clause 159 ( Power of Department to give financial assistance to charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institutions)
Mr Murray:
The Department determined that clause 159 is not required, as it is a duplication of existing powers in Northern Ireland, as provided by the Social Need (Northern Ireland) Order 1986. As members know, approximately 90% of the Bill has been taken from the Charities Act 2006 in England. The Act included that particular power because of concern in the House across the water about insufficient coverage of how grants should be provided by the then Active Communities Directorate, which is now the Office of the Third Sector. The Department’s view is that the clause is a duplication and, therefore, surplus to the requirements of the Bill. We sought legal advice from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office to confirm that.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and negatived.
Clause 159 disagreed to.
Clauses 160 to 163 agreed to.
Clause 164 (Effect of registering charity merger on gifts to transferor)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee sought a possible amendment to clause 164 to make provision for any gift that takes effect on, or after, the date of transfer to take effect as a gift to the transferee.
Mr Murray:
The Department has taken a strong view and has sought legal advice from the Office of the Legislative Counsel. We believe that the possibility of losing the benefit of a gift between the date of a merger and the date of registration should act as a strong incentive to ensure that registration is proceeded with at haste. Therefore, an amendment is not required.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 164 agreed to.
Clause 165 (Application of Act in relation to designated religious charities)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee asked the Department to consider how the clause could be amended to reflect that any Order made by the Department to extend exemptions to charities in that area should be approved by resolution of the Assembly.
Mr Murray:
The Department agrees that clause 165(3) be amended to reflect provisions in clause 167(7).
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, subject to the Committee being satisfied with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, put and agreed to.
Clause 165, subject to the Committee being content with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, agreed to.
Clause 166 (Designation, etc. of religious charities)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee asked the Department to consider the criteria applied to applications for designated religious charity status.
Mr Murray:
This issue attracted interest in the Committee and among religious, faith-based bodies. We had lengthy discussions with the Minister, and she has agreed to remove clause 166(3)(d), which relates to membership in Northern Ireland, and, secondly, to reduce the requirement in clause 166(3)(c) from 10 years to five years. The charity commission will retain sufficient powers to execute its responsibilities and to ensure that bodies that receive designated religious status exercise proper governance.
Miss McIlveen:
I welcome the changes. My colleague Jonathan Craig had to step out and thanks the departmental officials and the Minister for accepting the changes.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, subject to the Committee being satisfied with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendments, put and agreed to.
Clause 166, subject to the Committee being content with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendments, agreed to.
Clause 167 (Institutions which are not charities under the law of Northern Ireland)
The Deputy Chairperson:
The Committee asked the Department to consider how the clause could be amended to make it clear that there is a link between it and clause 16.
Mr Murray:
Only those charities, as defined in clause 1, are registrable under clause 16. It is not appropriate to include clause 167 institutions in the register kept under clause 16 because those institutions are registered elsewhere. Therefore, no amendment is required. Those clause 167 charities will be neither exempt from registering or reporting to the charity commission nor from demonstrating their public accountability regarding operation in Northern Ireland. That reflects regulations that exist in other parts of the UK and that will exist in the Republic of Ireland.
The Deputy Chairperson:
Will there be a parallel register?
Mr Murray:
Yes, there will be.
Question , That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 167 agreed to.
Clauses 168 to 186 agreed to.
Schedules 1 to 9 agreed to.
Long title agreed to.
The Deputy Chairperson:
I thank Mr Murray and Mr Doyle for their co-operation in scrutinising the Committee Stage of the Bill.
Mr Murray:
On my behalf and that of my colleagues, I thank the Committee for its time; it is probably the last occasion that we will meet on this subject. It has been a positive, if somewhat laborious, engagement, which has been important for the progress of the legislation. I thank all members, as well as the Committee Clerk and her staff, who have been very supportive during the process.
Mr Cobain:
You will go far, Seamus. [Laughter.]