COMMITTEE FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)
Charities Bill
3 April 2008
Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Gregory Campbell (Chairperson)
Mr David Hilditch (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Thomas Burns
Mr Fred Cobain
Mr Jonathan Craig
Ms Anna Lo
Mrs Claire McGill
Miss Michelle McIlveen
Mr Alban Maginness
Witnesses:
Mr
Roy McGivern
) Department for Social Development
Mr Seamus Murray )
The Chairperson (Mr Campbell):
I welcome Mr Seamus Murray and Mr Roy McGivern from the Department for Social Development. This is the formal part of the Committee Stage of the Charities Bill. I will introduce each of the amendments. If elaboration or explanation is required, I will ask the officials to provide that.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 ( Meaning of “charitable purpose”)
The Chairperson:
The Committee sought an amendment to clause 2 to reflect the fact that religion includes a belief in one, or more than one, god. The Department’s response was that the clause was to be amended as suggested.
Mr Seamus Murray (Department for Social Development):
The Department has taken the Committee’s views on board. The Minister has considered those views, and she is happy for the clause 2(3)(a)(i) to read as follows:
“A religion which involves belief in god or more than one god.”
Ms Lo:
Does the Bill also cover religion that does not believe in a god? Some religions believe in a prophet rather than a god.
Mr Murray:
Clause 2(3)(a)(ii) refers to “ any analogous philosophical belief”.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, subject to the Committee being satisfied with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, put and agreed to.
Clause 2, subject to the Committee being content with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, agreed to.
Clause 3 (The “public benefit” test)
The Chairperson:
The Committee sought an amendment to clause 3 to ensure that intangible benefits, such as spiritual benefits, would be recognised as providing public benefit. The Department said that spiritual benefit will be covered by the existing legislation and that it will be a matter for the charity commission to issue guidance and consult.
Mr Murray:
The clause has been discussed with the Minister, and the Department’s considered view is that the charity commission will issue guidance. The Charity Commission for England and Wales has recently published guidance on public benefit for religious charities. We will follow suit on that.
The Chairperson:
The submission from the Evangelical Alliance indicated that it was satisfied with that approach. The Committee asked the Department to consider using the word “harm” or “detriment” in the legislation instead of “disbenefit”.
Mr Murray:
The Minister is content that the wording be changed to read “detriment”.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, subject to the Committee being satisfied with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, put and agreed to.
Clause 3, subject to the Committee being content with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, agreed to.
Clause 4 (Guidance as to operation of public benefit requirement)
The Chairperson:
The Committee sought an amendment to clause 4 to require the charity commission to consult on any material changes to its guidance.
Mr Murray:
The Department has considered clause 4, and it believes that the Bill as it stands is sufficient to provide that the charity commission should consider where necessary rather than consult on every single change that is required in the future. Public benefit is a significant matter, and it would be consulted on.
The Chairperson:
The concern was that the minutiae would have to go out to public consultation.
Mr Murray:
That is the danger; if the charity commission were legally required to consult every time it made a change to the Bill, a public consultation process would be required, which would be nugatory.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 12 agreed to.
Clause13 (Practice and procedure)
The Chairperson:
The Committee sought a possible amendment to clause 13 to allow the charity commission to make provision for applicants to be represented by special advocates at a charity tribunal.
Mr Murray:
The Department has discussed the issue with colleagues in England and Wales. There is currently no provision for special advocates in the legislation there. However, that is being considered in England and Wales, given some of the issues that they face. The best approach that we can take is to watch and observe the changes across the water. Subsequently, change would be considered for Northern Ireland as required.
The Chairperson:
If a change were to come about in England and Wales, would the Committee be notified?
Mr Murray:
A substantive policy change would come back to the Committee, but that will probably happen somewhere down the line, after the legislation is enacted.
The Chairperson;
Will the Committee be notified of a change to the legislation in England and Wales?
Mr Murray:
Yes; we would bring that back to the Committee.
Clause 13 referred for further consideration.
Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to.
Clause 16 (Register of charities)
The Chairperson:
The Committee had sought a possible amendment to clause 16 to ensure that the charities register would include a separate statement if an organisation had been granted designated religious charity status.
Mr Murray:
That is a sensible suggestion, and the Department has agreed that clause 16(4)(b) should be amended, subject to instructions from the Office of the Legislative Counsel.
The Chairperson:
The Committee had also sought a possible amendment to clause 16 to ensure that Assembly approval was required for any further exemptions for designated religious charities.
Mr Murray:
The Department feels that that is not required because it will be covered in the legislation. The provision is included in the amendment of clause 165(3).
Mr Roy McGivern (Department for Social Development):
That is one of the proposed amendments.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, subject to the Committee being satisfied with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, put and agreed to.
Clause 16, subject to the Committee being content with the wording of the Department’s proposed amendment, agreed to.
Clauses 17 to 51 agreed to.
Clause 52 ( Power to order taxation of solicitor’s bill)
The Chairperson:
Members will remember that issue being discussed at a previous meeting. The Committee had asked the Department to investigate whether the provisions in clause 52 duplicate the provisions that are contained in the Solicitors ( Northern Ireland) Order 1976.
Mr Murray:
We have checked that out, and the Department agrees that there is duplication in that area. We propose to remove clause 52 from the Bill and rely on the 1976 Order.
Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and negatived.
Clause 52 disagreed to.
Clauses 53 to 73 agreed to.
The Chairperson:
I thank members and the officials from the Department. That was painless for us as well as for you.