COMMITTEE FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

OFFICIAL REPORT

(Hansard)

Charities Bill

14 February 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David Hilditch (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Mickey Brady
Mr Thomas Burns
Mr Fra McCann
Mrs Claire McGill
Miss Michelle McIlveen
Mr Alban Maginness

Witnesses:
Superintendent David Boyd ) Police Service of Northern Ireland
Mr John Conner )
Inspector Gary Atkinson )

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr Hilditch):
Good morning. Representatives of the Police Service of Northern Ireland are present to give evidence on the Charities Bill. They are Superintendent David Boyd of the operations, policy and support service; Mr John Conner, who is head of social legislation; and Inspector Gary Atkinson of the social legislation service. You are welcome, gentlemen. I remind everyone to ensure that mobile phones are switched off so that there is no interference with the session’s recording.

Superintendent David Boyd (Police Service of Northern Ireland):
Good morning. With your permission, Deputy Chairman, I will read the Police Service’s prepared response and take questions afterwards.

First, thank you for giving the PSNI the opportunity to brief the Committee on the draft Charities Bill. The PSNI was included in the advisory panel that was established in 2004 to consider the existing system of charities legislation and administration in Northern Ireland and to make recommendations on how that should be developed.

The Police Service welcomes the proposals contained in the draft Bill, particularly those that relate to a charities commission for Northern Ireland and a Northern Ireland register of charities, which will bring Northern Ireland broadly into line with England, Wales and Scotland.

From a policing perspective, the main change is that the new charities commission will be responsible for the issue of public-collection certificates, which will allow approved charities to conduct collections. In addition, the commission would be empowered to issue permits authorising specific collections in a public place, without which such collections could not be undertaken. It is more appropriate to have a centralised point for charitable collections than for each police district to issue certificates for collections, as currently happens. Furthermore, the draft Bill provides the necessary powers and provisions needed to ensure proper regulation and registration.

It is not clear from the draft Bill whether, when a permit or certificate has been issued, there is a requirement for the charity commissioner to inform the police commander of the local district or area of a collection in his or her area; that is, the date of the collection, times, days, organising body, et cetera. As it may be necessary to police such a collection, it is recommended that the Bill includes a provision that the charities commission should advise the local district or area commander in whose area the collection is to take place.

It is noted that persons who are convicted of any offence that involves dishonesty or deception shall be disqualified from being a charity trustee or a trustee for a charity. New controls to prevent criminal exploitation of charities are welcomed, and those will ensure that public confidence in charitable organisations is not undermined.

The PSNI welcomes the commission’s powers to institute inquiries, request documents and search records. In addition, the proposed Bill requires every charity to prepare annual returns to the commission for each financial year. The Police Service believes that the opportunity for abuse of charitable benefits or mock charities by criminal elements will be restricted by greater scrutiny and control. The service suggests that a formal memorandum of understanding, which includes an information-sharing agreement, be drawn up between the PSNI and the newly formed charities commission to provide a framework for closer working arrangements on issues of mutual interest, for example, vetting arrangements for applicants, trustees, etc.

In conclusion, the Police Service fully supports the proposals that are outlined in the Bill.

The Deputy Chairperson:
Thank you very much, Superintendent Boyd. You have made useful comments on the Bill. Of course, as the Committee takes the Bill though each of its Stages, its primary focus is to protect the public.

In your submission, you mentioned that to have a centralised point for charitable collections is more appropriate than the current system. Other witnesses were not convinced that the commission should issue permits as well as certificates, the main reason being that the commission would have limited local geographical knowledge, and that it would, therefore, be best that local authorities issued permits. What is your view on the matter?

Superintendent Boyd:
In my opening remarks, I said that the Police Service wants there to be a memorandum of understanding with the new commission. Basically, that would set out the stall for information-sharing. If the commission wished to seek local views before issuing such permits or certificates, it could seek the views of the PSNI area commander. Currently, the Association of Chief Police Officers in England and Wales is looking at drawing up a memorandum of understanding with the Charity Commission for England and Wales. Hopefully, that will include information-sharing.

The Deputy Chairperson:
You also said that greater scrutiny and control will lessen opportunities for criminals to abuse charitable benefits or set up mock charities. Two of the conditions that must be satisfied to obtain designated religious charitable status are a membership of at least 1,000 and to have been established in Northern Ireland for at least 10 years. Will the need to satisfy those conditions lessen the opportunities for fraud and other criminal activity?

Superintendent Boyd:
I have examined the draft Bill, and it will reduce the opportunity for criminal elements to use charities for fraudulent purposes, such as laundering money obtained through drug-dealing, etc.

Miss McIlveen:
Thank you for your presentation. The Bill refers to the disqualification of trustees who have been removed from office in England, Scotland and Wales. As you will be aware, several charities in Northern Ireland also operate in the Republic of Ireland. Moreover, people who live in the Republic of Ireland sit on the boards of charities in Northern Ireland. In the light of that, should the Bill also disqualify those who have been removed from office from acting as trustees in the Irish Republic?

Mr John Conner ( Police Service of Northern Ireland):
We have not had many dealings with trustees. However, I imagine that we would work with the proposed charity commissioner and the guidelines that will be set up. The commissioner will draw up processes and procedures and decide how the system will operate, and we will feed into that system at that time. We must wait to see how the charity commission will be set up and how it will operate.

Miss McIlveen:
It seems bizarre that the other regions are included in the Bill and the Republic of Ireland is not, because we have a land border, and it is easy for people to move from one jurisdiction to another.

Mr Conner:
We have not given much thought to that issue; however, we are aware it. When the charity commission is set up, we will be available to sit down with the commissioners and discuss it with them.

Mr F McCann:
Michelle touched on an issue that I was going to raise. The Bill, several times, mentions potential fraud. Is fraud a big problem? Do people fraudulently collect money in the names of charities?

Superintendent Boyd:
Before I came to the Committee, I did some background reading on that subject. I noted that the Organised Crime Task Force report of 2007 refers to an Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland (ACPO) report of 2007 on the nature, extent and economic impact of fraud in the UK. That report says that fraud takes a wide variety of behaviours, and it lists the main types that operate in the UK, one of which is charity fraud. From PSNI’s perspective, however, charity fraud is rare, and we have not detected many cases of it, although the ACPO report lists it as one of the main types of fraud or scams operating in the UK.

Hopefully the draft Bill, or the commission, will put in place safeguards that will protect the public. Hopefully, that will reduce the incidence of fraud, such as the bogus collections that Mr McCann mentioned.

In my opening remarks I said that commissioners should contact local area commanders to make them aware of when collections will take place. Thus, police officers on patrol will be briefed on what charities are collecting money and where the collections are taking place. That should have an impact on bogus collections.

Mr F McCann:
When issuing permits, would it be beneficial to issue collectors with a single piece of identification that stands out clearly and cannot easily be replicated?

Superintendent Boyd:
It is wise for collectors to have some sort of identification that links them to their charity. However, the majority of identifications can be downloaded from the Internet; therefore, although identifications can help, the system can be abused.

The Deputy Chairperson:
There being no further questions, that concludes this morning’s Committee session. Thank you, gentlemen, for your attendance.