NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES

Committee Structures

14 November 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Lord Morrow (Chairperson)
Mr Mervyn Storey (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Willie Clarke
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr David McClarty
Mr Sean Neeson
Mr Ken Robinson

Witnesses:
Mr Gerry Millar (Belfast City Council

The Chairperson (Lord Morrow):
I welcome Mr Millar of Belfast City Council to the meeting. I understand that you will make a presentation, to which we look forward. Members may want to ask questions, which I am sure you will be happy to answer.

Mr Gerry Millar (Belfast City Council);
I will talk for only five or 10 minutes, which, I believe, is the procedure. I do not have a presentation as such. However, I will provide some background information on my involvement in committee issues and I will be happy to answer questions.

My name is Gerry Millar and I am a director in Belfast City Council. One of my responsibilities is to drive a change management programme through the council. Belfast City Council took the view that it was the council least likely to be changed by the review of public administration (RPA), and about three years ago, we decided to improve the council by using the RPA as a driver. We asked the Improvement and Development Agency (IDeA) to review our organisation by comparing it with councils in England and to tell us what was good and what was bad about how we did things, which the IDeA duly did. It was left to Belfast City Council to decide what to do. As a result, I was appointed as a change driver on the project.

There were four broad areas in which we needed to improve: customer focus, performance management, the allocation of resources and strategy, and governance.

However, for this committee, the key area of improvement is governance — how we get things done. I will, therefore, describe our experiences to date.

Belfast City Council’s scarcest resource is councillors’ time; members waste a great deal of such time in meetings trying to micromanage council business. There was a need to clarify the roles of councillors and council officers in order to move business on. Contextually, the council has 51 councillors in six groups, and there is no overall control. There had been more than 18 committees and subcommittees and various working groups. Those committees had departments attached, which left a great deal of scope for game-playing between parties and for senior officers to play games with members to suit their individual agendas.

By 2005, we had more than 180 meetings a year. The committees had generated 1,500 reports, 42% of which were noting reports or for decisions on minor issues. We felt that that was not the business of elected members; that was what council officers were paid for. There was a bureaucratic obsession with meetings, meetings and more meetings. That was partly driven by the attendance allowance: councillors were paid for going to meetings, so more meetings took place. Meetings were full of condescension and ritual — there was a great deal of “Yes, Councillor”, “No, Councillor”, and a feeling that we should let the meetings run while officials got things done.

Our first task was to clarify the role of councillors; that was the bottom line for committee business. It was agreed that their role was to set the priorities for the organisation and for the city; to agree the allocation of resources; and to scrutinise the work of council officers and hold them to account. Alongside that, it is up to council officers to get the work done. Several issues arose from the clarification exercise. There were issues of trust and the delegation of more responsibilities to council officers, but they had to be held to account. Therefore, we introduced a performance-information system, which reports regularly on what is happening.

The political mix of Belfast City Council means that party discipline is important. The number of committees has been reduced, so if a party has only two members on a committee, party groups must rely on those members as it is not a good idea to reopen a decision every time it comes to council for ratification.

The Department of the Environment (DOE) addressed the issue of payment, and we had some input into that. We also changed the format of meetings and reports. We try to put everything on two sides of an A4 sheet of paper; any further detail goes into an appendix that can be attached to a report. That means that a report and its recommendations can be more easily discovered.

We have also introduced a computerised modern.gov system. Rather than have me describe the system, it would be better if council staff demonstrated it to the Committee. Council members have electronic access to papers and decisions, allowing them, as it suits, to trawl through the system to track the development of a decision across the organisation.

Besides changing the number of committees, we also talked about area committees. We have not gone as far as that yet, but we have done some detailed work on it. The main driver has been political will and ambition, and trust all round; the ability of people to take big changes on board; capacity building for councillors and council officers; the committee system; and focusing on the citizen. We are examining drafting a code of conduct, but the review of public administration is also working on that.

That is the broad overview. There had been 18 committees and subcommittees. I will leave a paper with the Committee that contains our proposals for changes to the political management structures. We examined several options, such as elected mayors, cabinet systems and the county manager system that operates in the South, in which councillors and committees act as sounding boards.

Given our circumstances, we felt that a management committee approach was the most suitable. We now have a strategic policy and resources committee, which is where the buck stops for resources and corporate direction. Standing committees deal with town planning, parks, development and health; we added a licensing committee and an audit subcommittee, which meet once a month. The strategic committee’s membership consists of the leaders of the six parties and the chairmen of the other committees so that the council gets a more coherent approach across the organisation.

The document contains detail and options on what councils in Britain and the Republic use and is written in fairly straightforward language. Details of how our organisation is run — quorums, for example — are in the council’s 2007 version of its standing orders. I will leave a copy for your information.

I am happy to answer questions.

The Chairperson:
Thank you very much, Mr Millar.

Are all committee decisions subject to ratification by the council?

Mr Millar:
Yes, with the exception of the town planning committee, which, provided that a decision is unanimous, has delegated authority. We dealt with licensing issues through the health committee, but we added the licensing committee because there were many contentious entertainment and sex shop licensing issues, which were leading to the establishment of special committees.

The licensing committee has delegated authority on to issue, amend or reject licences, subject to overall council policy on the matter. The council takes a policy decision on the committee’s recommendation — for example, Belfast City Council’s policy on the location of sex shops or the granting of entertainment licences. The licensing committee can then make a delegated decision on individual applications. Previously, if a member did not like the committee’s decision, they could appeal to the council because it had to ratify the decision. The delegated authority in the licensing committee prevents an applicant having two bites at the cherry.

The licensing committee has other important aspects. Party discipline and party representation are very important. Committee members should be able to know that their colleagues will deal with issues that will have an impact locally. We also inform all councillors when a particular licensing application is being dealt with in case the premises are in their area. Every councillor is entitled to take part in every committee meeting, although only the members of a specific committee may vote.

The Chairperson:
Do you have problems with quorums?

Mr Millar:
Not to date. However, under the previous system, with its 180 meetings, several meetings and briefings were cancelled because of problems with quorums.

We introduced the new system in June, and it has yet to settle. However, since several of our councillors are involved in the Assembly and since attendance money has been withdrawn and councillors now receive a basic salary, there have been some issues with attendance, but we have always been able to get a quorum.

The strategic policy and resources committee, which is the key committee for setting directions and resources, has been particularly well attended over the past four months.

Mr Neeson:
Did you notice a difference in the pattern of attendance at meetings after the change in payment arrangements? Does the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (SOLACE) have a view on the dual mandate or, in some cases, the triple mandate?

Mr Millar:
There has been some change since attendance money was withdrawn — certainly in Belfast — and that has been reflected in some other councils, although it has not yet resulted in inquorate meetings. However, the key to boosting attendance is to put interesting and important matters before members. It comes back to the question of role clarification.

SOLACE’s position on the dual mandate is that the sooner it is dispensed with the better, because it creates confusion.

Mr W Clarke:
Thank you for your presentation. I apologise for my late arrival; I was at another meeting.

Has the review created a more corporate body? Are council officers and councillors equal partners in every project? Has morale improved among councillors and staff? I am a councillor, and I know that there are tedious times when people rub one another up the wrong way.

Mr Millar:
That is easily answered. I have some evidence that there has been a big change for the better. We have just finished a survey of residents, councillors and staff; all three groups were surveyed at the same time to give a set baseline. Satisfaction with their roles and in their sense of belonging to Belfast City Council has improved among staff and councillors, as has the understanding of what the council does and the roles that individuals have to play. In general, the changes have been positive.

The changes did not happen overnight. I wrote the political management structures about a year ago, but it took almost a year to get everyone to sign up to them and to put all the structures in place. That process also helped to build trust. The changes go hand in hand with our approach to managing the council, because we need to set out a clear, common vision and agenda for Belfast.

We carried out an analysis using the survey, and we have taken the Programme for Government apart to examine its implications for Belfast. About two months ago, we took strategic policy and resource from the councillors and asked them what their big issues were, and we gave them the evidence that they needed. All the services in the council must set out their business plan and purposes according to a standard template. The only information that was missing was the party-political positions. We challenged the members strongly to set out their manifestos for Belfast.

Senior officers and councillors are having awaydays, and they will go away for another two days at the end of the month to concentrate on creating a doable three-year programme for the city that will align with the Assembly’s objectives. The review has pulled the organisation closer together.

Mr McClarty:
Gerry, you said that any member is entitled to attend committee meetings, but that he or she has no voting rights.

Mr Millar:
Yes.

Mr McClarty:
Do you allow substitute committee members voting rights?

Mr Millar:
No. Standing orders, which have been endorsed by the council, contain detailed information on committees and substitutes. Any member can attend and take part in a meeting, but only appointed members can vote.

Lord Browne:
Not that I am biased by being a member of Belfast City Council, but it has been to the fore in making changes and introducing initiatives that have led to much more efficiency. There were far too many committees in the client-contract days; now there are only six standing committees. Is there now a danger, however, that working groups will be set up? What other initiatives are there? Are there any financial initiatives to use money along with the private sector? Is that a way forward for other councils?

Mr Millar:
Getting everybody to agree to the changes was not easy, but eventually the parties told us that they would accept them, and that had to do with party discipline. Chairmen of subcommittees could always pursue their own specialisms or interests. Now that subcommittees have been absorbed into a bigger structure, some members might not be totally committed to the new arrangement. Nevertheless, that is what we are doing.

There always were working groups in Belfast City Council, in addition to formal committees, although they tended to be ad hoc and not particularly well organised. We have introduced new rules on working groups: we are happy to have them, but they must have strict terms of reference and a fixed end date. Some officers — and, perhaps, members — have tried to resurrect the subcommittees under a working group format. We have stopped that, however, and the matter is being revisited. We have to impose discipline: a working group must be for a specific issue and for a specified period. For example, because I also look after property issues for Belfast I am involved in refurbishing the City Hall, which is a large project; therefore I have a City Hall working group. However, the group exists only for the duration of the contract and the decant exercise. Working groups and getting everyone to sign up to them is an issue.

The second point that Lord Browne raised was the city investment strategy. Belfast City Council’s view is that it will take some time before the review of public administration is fully implemented, in whatever form that may be. At present, there are huge opportunities, particularly in Belfast, and the council has a big role to play. We have the mandate of the electorate; we can provide the necessary evidence and bring in the specialists that every city should have to identify where we need to go. We also feel that we should come up with our own ideas about investing in the city and creating a fund with our assets.

Those changes allow us to bring about efficiency savings and to take a corporate look at the city’s assets. Those assets are not, for example, the parks and leisure department’s assets — they are the council’s assets. We are considering how we might better use them to create a fund that we can invest in major projects. Deciding what those should be is another way of pulling the council together; that is because we ask members what they think and, of course, we are also getting ideas. Once we have identified a project — and a fund with which to undertake it — it becomes more real; it encourages members’ ambition, drive and political will, and that is what we are looking for.

Mr K Robinson:
Mr Millar has already answered my question. I was intrigued by the term, “town planning committee”. I wondered whether it was the sort of planning committee that we all know and love from our respective councils or is it a special committee that shapes the city, the division of the city and its resources? I take it that your town planning committee is simply a planning committee that responds to what the Department of the Environment wants?

Mr Millar:
That is correct. Other matters are dealt with by the strategic policy and resources committee.

Mr K Robinson:
Those are matters that all of us in our council roles would love to engage with.

Mr Millar:
Seven or eight years ago, I developed a policy for Belfast that led to the establishment of a development committee that was responsible for various functions. However, it was still regarded as a committee, and the parks and leisure department did not see it as their committee, etc. The development committee still exists, but it deals with regeneration. We felt that in order to get a corporate approach we needed a committee to which party leaders and all the chairmen of committees could sign up. That has created the type of committee that you are looking for — committees that deal with what we might call “the vision stuff”.

Mr K Robinson:
I take it that you have a golden egg — perhaps several —in the city’s treasury. How do you engage the council’s corporate body with the private sector, since you are probably more exposed to the private interest?

Mr Millar:
To date, probably the best experience that we have had in dealing with the private sector directly was the Belfast Gasworks project, which is still ongoing. Belfast City Council took away the risk as regards contamination of the site. It was the council’s role to put in the infrastructure, along with the master plan.

The private sector was then invited to bid for plots on the site on the basis that we would give the applicant the plot to develop over a three-year period, after which, if undeveloped, we would take it back from them. That was done on the basis of their financial return to the council, which wanted to hold on to the land. The financial return is 10% or 11% — whatever they offered, depending on the competition — of their rack rent. As they increase rents, we get more money.

The council will organise functions to which key private-sector developers will be invited. Occasionally, developers have approached us and asked to work with us. Those tend to involve one-off, individual projects, and what happens next depends on the procurement rules.

There seems to be a belief that we have a golden egg and that we can fund projects out of our own resources; however, we do not have to do it ourselves. Belfast City Hall is being refurbished, and regenerating the square around the City Hall, which is filled with buses, would help the regeneration of Belfast. Translink is happy for changes to be made. However, the Department for Social Development and the Department for Regional Development would have to be involved, and we will want to ask the proprietors of the buildings around the square to contribute, because the value of their property will increase if the area around the City Hall was transformed into a major civic space. I am not saying that that will happen, but we want to get the key parties around the table to ascertain what we can concoct.

The Chairperson:
Is voting by straight majority?

Mr Millar:
Yes. Voting in committees is by straight majority, which is then ratified by the council.

The Chairperson:
What resources do committees have at their disposal? Do they have control over staffing and budgets?

Mr Millar:
We have a committee and members’ services section under a head of service who engages people to carry out work for the committee clerks and to do research for members. That was part of the old regime, and it will probably have to change. We are considering those changes.

Every political party in Belfast City Council is allocated a room; those rooms were in the City Hall, but are now in a new building. The parties do not have individuals to carry out research and development for them, but that is being considered. It is hard to do that, as any staff appointed may become politicised, whereas we would like them to remain independent; they may have to be moved around the political parties from time to time. There is a general pool that tries to help parties with their research and development needs.

We also have a policy team in the centre of the organisation that provides members with information. For example, the surveys that I have gone through will be given to each party leader as a pack this afternoon. They will therefore have hard information to deal with.

I do not know the budget for committee services off the top of my head, but it is substantial. However, owing to the reduction in the number of meetings we are trying to give the parties time and space to get together and think through what they want to do. That also leaves members time for more constituency work.

From an officer point of view, we need to reconfigure our support services to match the changes in the political system. However, we are not yet at that point. Area committees were discussed, but we did not get that far. However, the role of our support services will have to be addressed. That issue could be dealt with under the RPA, particularly if councils are amalgamated.

The Chairperson:
What happens when a committee decision is ratified by the whole council, but a councillor, or several councillors from various parties, decides that they do not like it? Can they bring the decision back to the council and ask for it to be reconsidered? Does that have to happen within a specific timescale?

Mr Millar:
There is such an arrangement. If a member is not 100% happy with a committee decision, the council will ask the chairperson to ask the committee to reconsider it. If the chairperson refuses to do that, the council will vote and it will be carried through. However, if members wanted to return to the issue later, they would have to wait six months.

The Chairperson:
Is that the case even when there is consensus in the chamber?

Mr Millar:
Yes. Once a decision has been taken by council, it stands. A couple of decisions have to go through twice: when standing orders are changed they must go through the council on two occasions, one strictly after the other.

The Chairperson:
How often do you revise your standing orders?

Mr Millar:
We last amended them in 2007; before that they were revised in 2005.

The Chairperson:
Are they amended every two years?

Mr Millar:
I do not want to give that impression, although our standing orders should be reviewed regularly, as issues arise. The council’s standing orders cover everything from contracts and committee responsibilities to voting, the make-up of committees and the d’Hondt system.

The Chairperson:
Can a chairman refuse to revisit an issue, even if most committee members want him to?

Mr Millar:
A committee decision must be ratified in council; however, councillor X can ask for a decision to be revisited. If the chairman refuses to do so, the councillor can ask for a vote of the council, not the committee; the council decides on whether to revisit an issue. The outcome will depend on the make-up of the parties.

The Chairperson:
Do you ever have problems with cross-cutting issues that impinge on two committees and which neither, or both, wants to own?

Mr Millar:
That has happened.

May I return to the question of "corporateness" and pulling the organisation together? Until recently, there was not one corporate city council, but several little organisations; each committee and directorate could, more or less, do its own thing. That caused problems when two or three committees were making a decision — mistakes were made.

We described the policy and resources committee as a “buck-stopping committee”: someone had to take a decision. If a community centre was required in a park and the council was selling the land, the decision would be bounced from one committee or subcommittee to another, and the project never actually moved.

I had a meeting with Lord Browne this morning about the announcement of the lottery. At one stage, the council supported three lottery positions; we got around that by saying that they were all for Belfast and we that we were supporting Belfast. That came about because different committees were going in different directions with no overall organisation to pull them together.

Such things do arise, but we are trying to eliminate them.

The Chairperson:
They have to be dealt with.

Mr Millar:
Yes.

Mr Brolly:
Each committee has 20 members. That is a lot, is it not? Some councils do not have 20 members.

How are the committees constituted?

Mr Millar:
We use the d’Hondt system — first, second, third, fourth choice, and so on. Committees have 20 members, and the quorum is five. There are 51 members on the council, and that is the how they are selected.

The Chairperson:
Was it the council’s decision to use the d’Hondt system or is it in your standing orders?

Mr Millar:
D’Hondt is built into our standing orders and is how we allocate committee places and external positions. The d’Hondt system is used for about 40 positions.

The Chairperson:
Are the members of a newly elected council bound by that system?

Mr Millar:
Yes. The largest party gets first choice; the second largest party gets second choice, and so on.

Mr W Clarke:
Is the d’Hondt system used for the rotation of committee chairpersons?

Mr Millar:
Yes. The chairmanship of committees lasts for a maximum of two years. A councillor can be a committee chairperson for one or two years, depending on the agreement that has been reached. However, they cannot accept that role for a further two years, even if it were agreed under the d’Hondt system, because a representative from the same party cannot take that position for a further two years. The position must be rotated among parties.

Lord Browne:
The only positions that are not selected using the d’Hondt system are that of Lord Mayor and deputy Lord Mayor.

Mr Millar:
They are the positions of civic dignitaries.

The Chairperson:
Can a committee make a decision without a quorum?

Mr Millar:
If a committee does not have a quorum, members can listen to the debate but they cannot make a decision on it. If an urgent decision was required, we would have to get it directly ratified at council. There are delegated powers in standing orders for urgent decisions. Those are normally acted upon during the July break when our committees do not meet. However, if a committee did not have a quorum, a decision could be postponed until the next meeting.

Mr K Robinson:
If there was a problem with meat safety, for example, you could call an urgent meeting to make a decision. Who would call that meeting?

Mr Millar:
It would depend on where the request came from, but the chairperson would have to agree to it. Normally, a chairperson can call for a special meeting. If I was the officer and I became aware of such a matter, I would contact the chairperson and tell him that an urgent meeting was required. However, over and above that, we can act on a real emergency and then refer to the committee.

Standing order 28 provides for questions decided twice in the same financial year:

“The question which in any financial year has twice been decided by the Council in the same way shall not in the same financial year again be submitted for the Council’s consideration, and this Order shall not be evaded by the substitution of any motion differently worded, but in principle the same.”

It is the six months’ rule, as Lord Browne said.

The Chairperson:
You said that substitutes on committees are not permitted.

Mr Millar:
A councillor is not permitted to take another councillor’s place on a committee or to vote for someone else; however, any councillor may attend a committee meeting and participate in a debate, but they cannot vote on it.

Mr K Robinson:
They are permitted to attend with the permission of the chairperson.

Mr Millar:
That is correct.

Mr McCartney:
Are such councillors included in the quorum?

Mr Millar:
No, they are not. The quorum must be made up of committee members.

The Chairperson:
Thank you for your time, Mr Millar.