COMMITTEE FOR JUSTICE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
THURSDAY, 3 FEBRUARY 2011
THE SENATE CHAMBER, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Lord Morrow MLA (Chairman)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Thomas Buchanan MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Alban Maginness MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
In Attendance:
Mrs Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Joe Westland (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Kevin Marks (Clerical Officer)
Apologies:
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
The meeting commenced at 2.07 p.m. in public session.
1. Apologies
Apologies are detailed above.
2. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 27 January 2011
Agreed: The Committee approved the draft minutes of the meeting held on 27 January 2011.
3. Matters arising
The Committee Chairman proposed that the response to the Department of Justice Budget 2011-2015 should be placed on the Assembly website.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to publish the response on the Committee website page.
4. Letter from the Minister for Justice regarding future handling arrangements in relation to Police and Criminal Evidence (Retention of Fingerprints Samples etc) Bill
The Committee considered correspondence from the Minister of Justice in relation to the handling Arrangements for the Police and Criminal Evidence (Retention of Fingerprints, Samples etc.) Bill.
The Committee noted that the Minister intended to revert to his preferred option for the legislation of full consultation in advance of legislation and moving forward under normal passage rather than accelerated passage.
Agreed: The Committee agreed request further information from the Minster. In the meantime details of the Scottish option referred to in the paper would circulated for members information
5. Justice Bill: Consideration of proposed new clauses relating to Amendment to funds in court legislation and solicitors rights of audience
The Committee noted a request from the Bar Council seeking an opportunity to brief the Committee on solicitor’s rights of audience
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Geraldine Fee, Head of Criminal Policy and Legislation Division, Michael Kelly and Richard Ronaldson, NICTS joined the meeting at 2.18 p.m.
The Departmental officials briefed the Committee on provisions in relation to funds in courts which the Department hoped to introduce as amendments at consideration stage. A question and answer session followed covering the detail of the amendment; the current legislation dealing with funds; the reasons for the amendment; the status of the proposed court action; and the availability of funding to cover possible reimbursement costs.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to request the views of the Bar Council in writing. If any further clarification is required this can be obtained when representatives of the Bar attend next Thursday on Crown Court Renumeration
The Chairman thanked Michael Kelly and Richard Ronaldson for the briefing and they left the meeting.
Robert Crawford, Head of Public Legal Services Division and Maria Dougan joined the meeting at 2.50 p.m.
The Departmental officials outlined the proposed amendments on solicitors’ rights of audience and answered questions from Members on such issues as the role of the Department and the Attorney General in Regulations on the education and training for Solicitor Advocates; the requirement to advise clients in writing of the advantages and disadvantages of representation by an authorised solicitor; and the policy of extending solicitors’ rights of audience generally.
3.06 p.m. Mr Buchanan joined the meeting.
The Chairman thanked the officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.
Alan Hunter, Chief Executive of the Law Society and Peter Campbell, Chairman of the Higher Rights of Audience Committee joined the meeting at 3.30 p.m.
Mr Hunter and Mr Campbell outlined the Law Society’s key issues regarding the proposed solicitors’ rights of audience amendments and answered questions from Members on a range of issues including the necessity of some of the proposals; perceived conflict of interest; and in regulation to give effect to education, training etc.
Alban Maginness placed on record a declaration of interest in relation to his occupation as a barrister.
4.11 p.m . Mr Givan joined the meeting.
The Chairman thanked the Law Society representatives for the briefing and they left the meeting.
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Geraldine Fee, Head of Criminal Policy and Legislation Division, Robert Crawford, Head of Public Legal Services Division, and Maria Dougan joined the meeting at 4.23 p.m.
The Departmental officials responded to the points made by the Law Society and answered further questions from Members.
The Chairman thanked the officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.
4.43 p.m . Mr Maginness left the meeting.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to consider the matter further at its meeting on 8 February 2011.
6. The Justice Bill Committee Stage - Formal Clause by Clause Consideration
The Committee continued its clause-by-clause consideration of Parts 5 to 9 and Schedules 4 to 7 of the Justice Bill and new amendments proposed by the Department of Justice.
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Tom Haire, Justice Bill Manager, and Janice Smiley, Head of Criminal Policy Unit joined the meeting at 4.46 p.m. to provide further information and clarification if necessary.
4.43 p.m . Mr McCartney left the meeting.
Clauses 56 – 63 Treatment of Offenders
The Committee considered Clauses 56 - 63 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 56 – 63 put and agreed to”.
4.47 p.m . Mr McCartney rejoined the meeting.
Clauses 64 – 75 Penalty Notices
The Committee considered Clauses 64 - 75 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 64 - 75 put and agreed to”.
The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchanan
Lord Empey
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Conall McDevitt
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clauses 76 – 81 Conditional Cautions
The Committee considered Clauses 76 - 81 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 76 – 81 put and agreed to”.
Clause 82 Code of Practice
The Committee considered an amendment proposed by the Department to meet the concerns of the Committee and the Assembly Examiner of Statutory Rules that the order making power at clause 82(5) should be subject to affirmative resolution. The Department’s proposed amendment would provide that the order which brings the Code of Practice into operation must be laid before and approved by affirmative resolution. However this would not be by way of an amendment to clause 82 but by an amendment to clause 103.
The Committee considered Clause 82 as drafted by the Department.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 82 put and agreed to”.
Clause 83 – 84 Conditional Cautions
The Committee considered Clauses 82 - 84 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 82 - 84 put and agreed to”.
The Chairman thanked Janice Smiley and she left the meeting.
Geraldine Fee, Head of Criminal Policy and Legislation Division and Robert Crawford, Head of Public Legal Services Division joined the meeting at 5.00 p.m.
5.05 p.m. Lord Empey left the meeting.
Clause 85 Eligibility for criminal legal aid
The Committee considered an amendment to Clause 85 which would provide for affirmative resolution when and if the Criminal legal aid Means Test is enacted for the first time but that subsequent amendments to the means test would be by negative resolution.
5.05 p.m. Lord Empey left the meeting.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to return to this clause at the next meeting.
Clauses 86 – 88 Legal Aid
The Committee considered Clauses 86 - 88 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 86 - 88 put and agreed to”.
Clause 89 Financial Eligibility for grant of right of representation
The Committee considered its amendment to Clause 89 to affirmative procedure for any rules under the provision
Agreed: The Committee agreed to return to this clause at the next meeting.
Clauses 90 – 91 Legal Aid
The Committee considered Clauses 90 - 91 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 90 - 91 put and agreed to”.
Clauses 92 - 94 Miscellaneous
The Committee considered Clauses 92 – 94 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 92 - 94 put and agreed to”.
Clause 95 – Publication of material relating to legal proceedings
The Committee considered Clause 95 as drafted
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 95 put and agreed to”.
Clause 96 Membership of Crown Court Rules Committee
The Committee noted the response from the Minister of Justice outlining his agreement that magistrates’ court rules should be subject to the same level of scrutiny as other Court Rules but indicating it was unlikely that the necessary provision can be included in this Bill.
The Committee considered a proposed amendment by the Department of Justice to specify that the Attorney General’s nominee shall be a practising member of the Bar or a practising solicitor.
The Committee considered Clause 96 as amended by the Department.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 96 as amended as follows:
Clause 96, page 54, line 39, after ‘Committee)’ insert ‘in paragraph (g) for “one other” substitute “a” ’
Clause 96, page 55, line 1, leave out ‘person’ and insert ‘practising member of the Bar of Northern Ireland or a practising solicitor’
Put and agreed to”.
Clause 97 Membership of Court of Judicature Rules Committee
The Committee considered a proposed amendment by the Department of Justice to specify that the Attorney General’s nominee shall be a practising member of the Bar or a practising solicitor.
The Committee considered Clause 97 as amended by the Department.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 97 as amended as follows:
Clause 97, page 55, line 5, after ‘Committee)’ insert ‘in paragraph (d) for “one other” substitute “a” ’
Clause 97, page 55, line 7, leave out ‘person’ and insert ‘practising member of the Bar of Northern Ireland or a practising solicitor’
Clause 97, page 55, line 12, leave out ‘person’ and insert ‘barrister or solicitor’
Put and agreed to”.
Clauses 98 – 101, Miscellaneous
The Committee considered Clauses 98 – 101 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 98 - 101 put and agreed to”.
Clause 102 Supplementary, incidental consequential and transitional provision, etc
The Committee considered Clause 102 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 102 put and agreed to”.
Clause 103 Regulations and Orders
The Committee considered Clause 103 as amended by the Department as a result of Clause 82
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 82 as amended as follows:
Clause 103, page 61, line 18, leave out ‘and’ and insert ‘to’
Clause 103, page 61, line 23, at end insert
‘(3A) No order may be made
(a) under section 82(5);
Put and agreed to”.
Clause 104 – 108 Supplementary Provisions
The Committee considered Clauses 104 – 108 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 104-108 put and agreed to”.
Schedule 5 Transitional and Saving Provisions
The Committee considered Schedule 5 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Schedule 5 put and agreed to”.
Schedule 6 -Minor and Consequential Amendments
The Committee considered Schedule 6 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Schedule 6 put and agreed to”.
Schedule 7 Repeals
The Committee considered Schedule 7 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Schedule 7 put and agreed to”.
The Chairman thanked Geraldine Fee and Robert Crawford for the briefing and they left the meeting.
Amanda Patterson, Head of Public Protection and Billy Stevenson, Protection and Organised Crime Branch, joined the meeting at 5.15 p.m.
Clause 14 Live Links
The Committee considered further clarification by the Department of Justice that the there is support for mental health patients in giving evidence by live links. The Committee raised the issues of whether support should automatically be provided and welcomed the undertaking from the Department that it is at the discretion of the judge whether or not support to issue a letter of guidance to register medical officers to help strengthen the provision.
The Committee considered Clause 14 as drafted.
“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 14 put and agreed to”.
Clause 34 Duty on Public Bodies to consider community safety implications in exercising duties
The Committee considered correspondence from by the Department of advising that it intends to provide a further a further draft amendment to this clause. The Committee agreed to consider this at the meeting on Tuesday 8 February 2011.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to return to this clause at its meeting on Tuesday 8 February 2011 .
Schedule 1 paragraph 10
The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice indicating that the Minister was not minded to amend schedule 1 paragraph 10 to reflect the proposal put by Mr Paul Givan and agreed to by the Committee to ensure that an elected member would be the Chairman of the PCSPs.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to request that a draft amendment Be prepared for consideration.
New Amendments on Sex Offender Notification
The Committee considered proposals from the Department to introduce provisions in the Justice Bill to meet the Supreme Court ruling that the indefinite notification requirements attached to sex offenders who have been sentenced to 30 months or more imprisonment were incompatible with Article 6 of the ECHR.
Agreed: The Committee agreed with the inclusion of the new provisions in the Bill.
New Amendments on Asset Law Recovery
The Committee considered proposals from the Department to bring forward an amendment to the Bill to give the Department power, with the consent of DFP, to allocate the proceeds of criminal assets remitted to the NI Consolidated Fund by NI Courts to prevent crime and reduce the fear of crime and to support the recovery of criminal assets.
Agreed: The Committee agreed with the inclusion of the new provisions in the Bill.
The Committee noted a paper summarising issues raised by organisations when providing evidence on the Bill but which did not strictly relate to the content of the Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to consider further at the meeting on Tuesday 8 February 2011 .
The Chairman thanked the officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.
The clause-by-clause consideration was recorded by Hansard
7. Proposal for EU regulation 4/2009 on Jurisdiction, applicable law recognition and enforcement of decisions and co-operation in matters relating to maintenance obligations
The Committee had considered EU Regulation 4/2009 on jurisdiction, applicable law, recognition of decisions and cooperation in matters relating to maintenance obligations which was intended to ensure the effective recovery of maintenance between family members within the EU at its meeting on 9 September the Committee had noted and was content that under the Regulation the Department of Justice was to be designated as the Central Authority for Northern Ireland.
The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice proposing that regulations which are to be made by the Ministry of Justice to support implementation of this EU Regulation should deal with the amendments needed for Northern Ireland.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to seek the views of the Committee for Social Development for its views /comments and to return to the matter at a future meeting.
8. Proposal to make a Statutory Rule of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and Police Service of Northern Ireland Reserve (Full –Time)(Amendments) Regulations 2011
The Committee considered a proposal to amend Police Regulations to provide that 29 April 2011 will be treated as a bank holiday, in line with the Royal Proclamation of 17 December 2010.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it was content with the proposed Rule.
9. Proposal to make a Statutory Rule of the Insolvency (Amendments) Rules (Northern Ireland) 2011
The Committee considered a proposal to amend Insolvency Rules (Northern Ireland) 1991 to make provision in respect of debt relief orders, debt relief restrictions orders and debt relief restrictions undertakings under the Debt Relief (Northern Ireland) Act 2010.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it was content to seek the views/comments of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment on the proposals and return to the matter at a future meeting.
10. Chairman’s Business
There was no Chairman’s business.
11. Correspondence
The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Justice to the Clerk to the Committee for Social Development regarding the Housing (Amendment) (No.2) Bill – fixed penalties and costs.
The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding Amendments to Insolvency Rules – Advertising Provisions.
The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding justice issues related to the Damages (Asbestos-Related Conditions) Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the response to the Committee for Finance and Personnel.
12. Any Other Business
The Committee considered a number of court sentences that had been widely publicised in the media.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to return to the issue on Tuesday 8 February 2011.
13. Date and Time of next meeting
The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 8 February at 3.00 p.m. in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.
5.40 p.m. The meeting was adjourned.
Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley MLA
Chairman, Committee for Justice
10 February 2011
1 February 11 / Menu
