COMMITTEE FOR FINANCE AND PERSONNEL
Minutes of Proceedings
Wednesday, 10 December 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings
Present:
Mitchel McLaughlin MLA (Chairperson)
Dr Stephen Farry MLA
Fra McCann MLA
Jennifer McCann MLA
David McNarry MLA
Adrian McQuillan MLA
Declan O’Loan MLA
Ian Paisley Jnr MLA
Dawn Purvis MLA
Peter Weir MLA
In Attendance:
Shane McAteer (Assembly Clerk)
Colin Jones (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Vivien Ireland (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Paula Sandford (Clerical Supervisor)
Chris McCreery (Clerical Officer)
Apologies: Simon Hamilton MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
The meeting commenced at 10.04 am in open session.
1. Apologies
Apologies are detailed above.
Agreed : that the evidence sessions with the Consumer Council representatives on the role of local banks in alleviating the economic downturn and with Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) officials on the progress on the Regional Economic Strategy will be recorded by Hansard and the finalised transcripts will be published on the website.
Members noted that the evidence from DFP officials on the Presumption of Death Bill will be recorded by Hansard as it forms part of the Committee Stage of the Bill.
2. Draft Minutes of Proceedings of 3 December 2008
Agreed: for publication on the Assembly website.
3. Matters Arising
The Committee noted the outstanding requests for information from DFP.
Dr Farry joined the meeting at 10.10 am.
Members noted that the information requested by the Committee on DFP progress in implementing recommendations in the Capital Realisation Taskforce Report 2007 has been further delayed. Members noted the interim information provided by DFP.
Members considered a draft letter to the Minister of Finance and Personnel on senior civil service bonuses.
Agreed : the letter to the Minister of Finance and Personnel as amended.
Members noted the response from the British Bankers’ Association (BBA) to the Committee’s press statement. In addition, the Committee noted responses from the Ulster Bank and First Trust Bank to the letter issued to local banks on 4 December 2008.
Ms Purvis joined the meeting at 10.20 am.
Agreed : that correspondence will issue to the four local banks, emphasising the Committee’s concerns in this area and to request a meeting with the banks at their earliest convenience.
4. Role of Local Banks in Northern Ireland’s Economic Downturn: Evidence from the Consumer Council
The Committee took evidence from Julie Megrath, Head of Money Affairs, Consumer Council and Alison Donnelly, Senior Consumer Affairs Officer in Financial Inclusion, Consumer Council. The session was recorded by Hansard.
Ms Purvis left the meeting at 10.34 am.
Ms Purvis returned to the meeting at 10.41 am.
Agreed: that the Consumer Council will provide further information on a number of issues to assist the Committee in its deliberations on this matter.
5. Presumption of Death Bill Committee Stage: Cause-by-Clause Scrutiny: Evidence from DFP
The following DFP officials provided advice to the Committee during this session: Oswyn Paulin, Departmental Solicitor and Head of Government Legal Service and Neil Lambe, Principal Legal Officer, Civil Law Reform Division, Departmental Solicitor's Office. The session was recorded by Hansard.
The Committee undertook its formal clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Presumption of Death Bill as follows:
Clause 1 – Declarations of presumed death
The DFP officials clarified the position in relation to putting a recommendation to the Minister for an amendment which would provide for a third jurisdictional rule in clause 1. This would provide the High Court with jurisdiction to hear cases in which the applicant is a close relative of a victim of violence within the meaning of the Northern Ireland (Location of Victims’ Remains) Act 1999. The amendment would address the issue, which arose in the evidence to the Committee, of allowing the disappeared to have a specific entitlement and jurisdiction under the Bill.
Question : That the Committee is content with the amendment as proposed by DFP, put and agreed to.
Question: That the Committee is content with clause 1, subject to the amendment agreed with the Department, put and agreed to.
Clause 2 – Making of declaration of presumed death
Clause 3 – Effect of declaration of presumed death
Clause 4 – Powers of the High Court
Clause 5 – Variation orders
Question: That the Committee is content with clauses 2 to 5, put and agreed to.
Clause 6 – Effect on property rights of variation order
Clause 7 – Insurance against claims
The Department had indicated that it intends to table amendments to clauses 6 and 7 to ensure that the obligations to repay capital sums or to take out insurance in respect of repayment of those sums does not extend to capital sums paid out by insurers in the form of annuities or other periodical payments . This would bring the insurance provisions into line with the associated Scottish legislation.
DFP had also indicated that the clarification of the treatment of annuities will reduce the instances when insurance may be required. In addition, DFP emphasised that the court retains the power to disapply the requirement in certain circumstances, so it is not always the case that there will be a requirement for insurance.
Question: That the Committee is content with clauses 6 and 7, subject to the Department’s proposed amendments, put and agreed to.
Clause 8 – Supplementary provisions as to declarations, etc.
Clause 9 – Provisions relating to the Attorney General
Clause 10 – Right to intervene
Question: That the Committee is content with clauses 8 to 10, put and agreed to.
New Clause – Disclosure of Information
The Committee noted that DFP proposes to insert a new disclosure of information clause after clause 10, but that the draft provided by the Department had not yet been signed off by all interested parties. DFP’s proposed clause would provide a discretionary power for the High Court to order someone who is not a party to the proceedings to disclose information to the Court, which would enable it to dispose of the application before it. Mr O’Loan indicated that he will wish to bring forward proposals for a further amendment to the Bill, aimed at providing for a duty of disclosure on persons holding information pertinent to the application before the Court.
Dr Farry left the meeting at 11.18 am.
Question: That the Committee is content with the approach being proposed by DFP for a new clause to be added on “Disclosure of information”, put and agreed to.
Agreed: that, at the Committee’s meeting on 7 January 2009, Mr O’Loan will put forward proposals for additional provision in respect of the disclosure of information.
Agreed: that DFP will update the Committee of any developments on the new disclosure of information clause that take place over Christmas recess.
Clause 11 – Costs
Clause 12 – Power to amend certain time periods
Clause 13 – Repeal of certain statutory provisions relating to presumption of death
Clause 14 – Register of Presumed Deaths
Clause 15 – Orders and regulations
Question: That the Committee is content with clauses 11 to 15, put and agreed to.
Clause 16 – Interpretation
The Department had advised that it is currently making progress with replacing the definition of insurer in clause 16(2) and 16(3) with a simpler definition that is not tied to the regulatory framework.
Question: That the Committee is content with clause 16, subject to the Department’s proposed amendments, put and agreed to.
Clause 17 – Supplementary provision
Clause 18 – Amendments and repeals
Question: That the Committee is content with clauses 17 to 18, put and agreed to.
Clause 19 – Commencement
The Department advised the Committee of a proposed amendment to this clause, relating to the commencement provisions for clause 9.
Question: That the Committee is content with clause 19, subject to the Department’s proposed amendment, put and agreed to.
Clause 20 – Short title
Question: That the Committee is content with clause 20, put and agreed to.
Ms McCann left the meeting at 11.34 am.
Mr Weir left the meeting at 11.35 am.
Dr Farry returned to the meeting at 11.36 am.
Schedule 1 – Register of Presumed Deaths
On the basis of concerns raised in the evidence, the Committee had asked DFP to reconsider the provision in 4(2) regarding the correction of the Register. In particular, it was proposed that the discretionary power of the Registrar General to annotate an entry be amended to a duty in cases where he becomes aware that a missing person’s death has been registered outside Northern Ireland. DFP had agreed to table an amendment to the Bill, in line with the Committee’s proposal.
Mr Weir returned to the meeting at 11.38 am.
Question: That the Committee is content with Schedule 1, subject to the amendment agreed with the Department, put and agreed to.
Schedule 2 – Consequential Amendments
Schedule 3 – Repeals
Question: That the Committee is content with schedules 2 and 3, put and agreed to.
Members were advised that a draft report will be prepared for the Committee’s consideration on 7 January 2009 and that the Committee will be required to report to the Assembly by 16 January 2009 in accordance with the extended timetable for Committee Stage of the Bill.
6. Progress on Northern Ireland’s Regional Economic Strategy: Evidence from DFP
The Committee took evidence from Michael Brennan, Head of Strategic Policy Division, DFP and Peter Jakobsen, Principal Economist, Strategic Policy Division, DFP.
Mr Paisley Jnr left the meeting at 11.44 am.
Mr Paisley Jnr returned to the meeting at 11.46 am.
Agreed : that a copy of the Business Plan 2008/09 for the Strategic Policy Division will be forwarded to the Committee.
Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 11.56 am.
Ms McCann returned to the meeting at 11.58 am.
Mr Weir left the meeting at 12.02 pm.
Mr McCann left the meeting at 12.02 pm.
Mr Weir returned to the meeting at 12.08 pm.
Dr Farry left the meeting at 12.12 pm.
Dr Farry returned to the meeting at 12.15 pm.
Mr McCann returned to the meeting at 12.15 pm.
Ms Purvis left the meeting at 12.20 pm.
Ms Purvis returned to the meeting at 12.24 pm.
7. Correspondence
The Committee noted the following correspondence:
- DFP: Resource Accounts for year ended 31 march 2008;
Agreed: that clarification will be sought from DFP on the differences in the salaries paid at the Permanent Secretary level;
- DFP: Response to Committee query on Central Procurement Directorate legal challenges;
Agreed: to schedule an oral briefing by DFP on the lessons from the legal challenges relating to government procurement;
- DFP: Information on the potential claw back of European funding;
Agreed: that the DFP response will be copied to the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister as requested.
Agreed: that further clarification will be sought from DFP on this issue, including whether there could be implications for NI departments’ budgets from any future financial corrections by the European Commission;
- DFP: Committee for Regional Development: Response on sickness absence in Northern Ireland Departments ;
- DFP: Response on up-to-date forecasts for capital receipts against figures in the Executive’s Budget;
- DFP: Response to Committee in relation to post project evaluations;
Agreed : to schedule an oral briefing by DFP on post project evaluations. In addition, it was agreed to forward the correspondence to all Assembly statutory committees and to the Public Accounts Committee;
Mr Weir left the meeting at 12.25 pm.
Mr Weir returned to the meeting at 12.30 pm.
- DFP: Construction Employers Federation: Request to provide evidence on public procurement;
Agreed : that the Construction Employers Federation will be invited to submit written evidence to the Committee’s inquiry in the first instance. In addition, it was agreed to advise Groundwork Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action and the Social Economy Network of the opportunity to submit written evidence to the inquiry; and
- Correspondence from the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety to the Minister of Finance and Personnel: Funding for the proposed Regional Women’s and Children’s Hospital at the Royal.
Agreed : that this will be forwarded to DFP as requested.
8. Committee Work Programme from January 2009
Members considered the current draft of the Committee work programme from January 2009 until Easter recess.
Members noted correspondence from DFP on the Financial Provisions Bill, which included a copy of the Bill together with the accompanying Policy Memorandum and Explanatory and Financial Memorandum. The Committee was advised that the provisions of the Bill will be a matter of interest to the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, the Audit Committee and the Public Accounts Committee.
Agreed: that the information on the Financial Provisions Bill will be copied to the relevant committees for comment.
Agreed: that a pre-introductory briefing on the Financial Provisions Bill will be scheduled into the Committee’s work programme.
Mr Weir gave his apologies for the Committee meeting on 7 January 2009.
Members noted that representatives from the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland and the Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations have indicated that they would be willing to give oral evidence to the Committee on the Civil Registration Bill on 14 January 2009.
Agreed: that formal invitations will be issued to the representatives of the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland and the Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations.
Agreed: that the work programme will be published on the website.
Mr McNarry enquired whether it would be possible to receive copies of Hansard reports earlier.
Agreed: that Committee staff will check the procedures on release of Hansard reports.
9. Any Other Business
Members noted a press article: Construction sector SMEs ‘in need of Executive help’, Newsletter, Thursday 4 December.
Members considered a draft press release on senior civil service bonuses.
Agreed : that the Committee press release will be issued today.
Mr McNarry raised queries around the position in the Assembly Secretariat regarding NICS secondments and pay.
Agreed : that this issue falls within the remit of the Assembly Commission but that the Committee will apprise the Commission of its position on the senior civil service pay system.
10. Date, Time and Place of Next Meeting
The next meeting will be held on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 at 10.00 am in Room 152, Parliament Buildings.
The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 12.46 pm.