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COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING Report on the Employment Bill NIA Bill 11/01
Ordered by The Committee for Employment and
Learningto be printed 26 September 2002 COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING MEMBERSHIP AND POWERS The Committee for Employment and Learning is a Statutory Departmental Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly established in accordance with paragraphs 8 and 9 of Strand One of the Belfast Agreement and under Standing Orders 44 – 46 of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Committee has a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Department for Employment and Learning and has a role in the initiation of legislation. The Committee has power:
The Committee is appointed at the start of every Assembly, and has power to send for persons and papers and records that are relevant to its inquiries. The Committee has 11 members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, and a quorum of 5. The membership of the Committee at 26 September 2002 was: Dr Esmond Birnie (Chairperson)
1 Mrs Joan Carson replaced Rev Robert
Coulter on 11 September 2000. The Department for Employment and Learning Act (Northern Ireland) 2001 received Royal Assent on 20 July 2001 and made provision for the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment to be renamed the Department for Employment and Learning. Accordingly, the Statutory Committee was renamed the Committee for Employment and Learning. Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by the Stationery Office by order of the Committee. All publications of the Committee are posted on the Assembly’s website: (www.niassembly.gov.uk). All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk to the Committee for Employment and Learning, Northern Ireland Assembly, Room 283, Parliament Buildings, Stormont, Belfast, BT4 3XX. ( (028) 9052 1272: Ê: (028) 9052 1433 : e-mail: cel@niassembly.gov.uk TABLE OF CONTENTS REPORT Purpose Extension of the Committee Stage Consideration of the Evidence on the Bill APPENDICES Appendix 1: Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report Appendix 2: Minutes of Evidence Federation of Small Businesses – 13 June 2002 NICICTU – 20 June 2002 DEL Officials – 27 June 2002 Equality Commission for Northern Ireland – 4 July 2002 DEL Officials – 5 September 2002 Committee clause-by-clause scrutiny – 12 September 2002 Appendix 3: Written Evidence submitted to the Committee Federation of Small Businesses – 10 June 2002 NICICTU – 20 June 2002 Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment – 4 July 2002 Equality Commission for Northern Ireland – 4 July 2002 DEL response to questions raised by members – 11 July 2002 NICICTU recommendations for amendments – 13 August 2002 Federation of Small Businesses recommendations for amendments – 27 August 2002 Equality Commission recommendations for amendments – 30 August 2002 DEL pre-term births – 30 August 2002 DEL proposed amendments by the Minister at Consideration Stage – 4 September 2002 Equality Commission use of term ‘worker’ in legislation – 9 September 2002 DEL response to various issues by members – 12 September 2002 EMPLOYMENT BILL (NIA 11/01) Purpose 1. The purpose of this Report is to bring into the public domain the Committee for Employment and Learning’s consideration of the Employment Bill being sponsored by the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL). This Report aims to accurately portray the full and fair consideration that was brought to bear, by members of the Committee, in their deliberations on the Employment Bill during Committee Stage. Key Points 2. The Employment Bill was welcomed by the Committee for Employment and Learning in light of the provisions contained therein:
3. Members sought a balanced range of views as part of their deliberations on the Employment Bill and requested evidence from a number of organisations as well as from officials from DEL. Requests for written submissions were also requested from the following Assembly Committees;
4. The views of the impact on employers, of provisions in the Employment Bill, were sought from the Federation of Small Businesses while the likely impact for ‘employees’ was sought from the Northern Ireland Committee - Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Issues arising from these two evidence sessions held in Parliament Buildings, as well as members’ own concerns, were raised with departmental officials who were invited to give evidence to the Committee on the Employment Bill. The views of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland were also sought in order to determine what potential equality and discriminatory issues that might arise from this legislation. 5. A recurring point of issue amongst members was in regard to the widening of eligibility, so that as many people as possible could gain access to the benefits provided for in the Employment Bill. Possible amendments considered by members included the extension of the right to request flexible working to be extended to those with other caring responsibilities, such as elderly parents, as well as the removal of the age barrier of six years, above which working parents of children would not be permitted to request flexible working hours from their employers. Similarly, consideration was given to removing the age restriction (18) on the right to request flexible working by parents of disabled children. 6. During their consideration of the Employment Bill, some members of the Committee did see positive merit in an amendment of the definition of those who could benefit from the enhanced rights included in the Bill. This was agreed in principle by suggesting that ‘worker’ replace the word ‘employee’ where relevant in each clause and schedule of the legislation. This would result in a widening of the scope of the Bill, estimated (assuming certain statistical relations in Northern Ireland would be the same as the UK average) at an additional 5% more people who could be eligible for these benefits. 7. However, as a result of further evidence presented to the Committee, the view was taken that such a change, whatever its attractiveness or otherwise in principle, would not be practicable at this time. The Committee agreed that such changes raised a very real prospect of not only delaying the progress of the Bill but could indeed result in the Bill not receiving Royal Assent and thus denying a considerable number of the workforce from access to any of these new rights at the same time as their Great Britain counterparts. 8. The Committee did, however, affirm its intention to further pursue the matter of clarifying the legal status of ‘workers’ in the workforce and to debate widely on the employment rights that should be available to all categories that fall under this general term. The introduction of two policy documents by DEL, Employment Status in Relation to Statutory Employment Rights and EU Commission Proposal for a directive on Working Conditions for Temporary Agency Workers, were seen as areas where the Committee should make a full and detailed input into this wider discussion on the rights of ‘workers’. It was also agreed that a consistent and uniform definition across all legislation would be a more effective way forward and a major policy decision. Furthermore, a wider consultation was required on this major issue before a final decision is taken. 9. The purpose of this Report is to bring into the public domain the Committee for Employment and Learning’s consideration of the Employment Bill being sponsored by the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL). This Report aims to accurately portray the full and fair consideration that was brought to bear, by members of the Committee, in their deliberations on the Employment Bill during Committee Stage 10. The Employment Bill was referred to the Committee for Employment and Learning for consideration in accordance with Assembly Standing Order 31(1) on completion of the Second Stage of the Bill on 5th June 2002. 11. The Minister for Employment and Learning made the following statement under section 9 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998: "In my view the Employment Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly." 12. The measures within the Northern Ireland (NI) Employment Bill mirror the working parents provisions within the Great Britain (GB) Employment Act 2002. The GB Employment Act received Royal Assent on 8th July 2002 and covered the main areas of paternity and adoption leave and pay, maternity leave and pay, flexible working, employment tribunal reform and resolving disputes between employers and employees. 13. In GB, a review of maternity and parental rights was launched in the early summer of 2000 and its terms of reference were to: "consider the steps needed to make sure that parents have choices to help them balance the needs of their work and their children so that they may contribute fully to the competitiveness and productivity of the modern economy". This review led to the publication of the Green Paper ‘Work and Parents: Competitiveness and Choice’ in December 2000 by the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) and the subsequent consultation period continued until early March 2001. In light of the results arising from the consultation it was announced in the Chancellor’s Budget Statement on 7 March 2001 that extensions to maternity and parental rights would be provided and all measures were to be implemented from 2003. The DTI subsequently produced 3 framework documents in May 2001 for consultation on the new options for maternity, paternity and adoption leave and pay. They also commissioned a high-level taskforce to consider the introduction of flexible working arrangements for parents of young children. Proposals emerging from these exercises led to the shaping of the provisions included in the GB Employment Act 2002. 14. In Northern Ireland, DEL issued similar consultation exercises as those outlined above. This process also confirmed support for the introduction of new and additional rights to facilitate a greater choice and flexibility for parents between family and work commitments. 15. The NI Employment Bill includes:- (i) The right to 2 weeks paid paternity leave around the time of birth or the placement of a child newly-placed for adoption. Statutory Paternity Pay (SPP) will be at the same standard rate as Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP). (ii) Adoption leave for parents adopting a child newly placed with them. As far as practical, provisions for adoption leave will mirror provisions for maternity leave. Statutory Adoption Pay (SAP) will be for the same period of time as Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP) and will be paid at the same standard rate. (iii) Amendments to existing legislation to improve maternity rights – the right to 26 weeks ordinary maternity leave (paid) and 26 weeks additional maternity leave (unpaid) to expectant mothers. (iv) A duty on employers to seriously consider requests from parents of young children to work flexible hours. 16. Other related measures corresponding to Social Security provisions in the GB Employment Act, such as arrangements for revised maternity pay, will be taken forward by the Department for Social Development. 17. The provisions detailed in both the GB Employment Act 2002 and the NI Employment Bill are intended to come into force on 6 April 2003. EXTENSION OF THE COMMITTEE STAGE 18. On 5 September 2002 the Committee agreed a motion to request that the Committee Stage of the Employment Bill should be extended to 18 October 2002 to ensure due and proper consideration in relation to the possible amendments to be made to the Bill. The Committee agreed the following motion seeking an extension to the Committee Stage of the Bill. "That in accordance with Standing Order 31(5), the period referred to in Standing Order 31(3) be extended to 18 October 2002 in relation to the Committee Stage of the Employment Bill (NIA Bill 11/01)" This motion was tabled on the understanding that the period of extension would only be used if absolutely necessary. Departmental officials had previously advised the Committee that the progress of the Employment Bill through the various stages in the Assembly, would need to comply with stringent deadlines to ensure that the legislation could come into effect on the required date. 19. Members were advised to consider the following suggested timetable for progress of the Bill in the Assembly subject to any decision to further extend the period of scrutiny of the Committee Stage:
This timetable would enable the considerable number of Regulations arising from the Bill to be brought before the Assembly and approved by early March 2003 in advance of the proposed date for dissolution of the Assembly, on 21 March 2003. It was recognised by the Committee that all these stages needed to be met within the specified time periods to ensure that the provisions, as detailed in the Employment Bill, could come into effect on 6 April 2003 at the same time as the provisions of the GB Employment Act 2002. CONSIDERATION OF THE EVIDENCE ON THE BILL 20. The Committee had before it the Employment Bill (NIA 11/01) and the accompanying Explanatory and Financial Memorandum. The Committee was assisted during it’s consideration of the Employment Bill by a number of research papers prepared by the Northern Ireland Assembly’s Research and Library Services. 21. The Committee considered the Employment Bill on 6, 13, 20, 27 June 2002, 4 July 2002 and 3, 5, 12, 19 and 26 September 2002. Minutes of proceedings of Committee meetings on these dates are included in this Report. 22. At the meeting on 6 June 2002, members considered the responses received by DEL on the following public consultations related to the Employment Bill:
Members agreed to take oral evidence from the Federation of Small Businesses, the Northern Ireland Committee – Irish Congress of Trade Unions; the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland and officials from DEL. These evidence sessions were held respectively on the 13, 20 and 27 June and 4 July. The views of the impact on employers, of provisions in the Employment Bill, were sought from the Federation of Small Businesses while the likely impact for ‘employees’ was sought from the Northern Ireland Committee - Irish Congress of Trade Unions. The views of the Equality Commission were also sought in order to determine what potential equality and discriminatory issues that might arise from this legislation. Minutes of Evidence from these meetings are included in a separate section in this Report. 23. Requests for written submissions were also requested from the organisations outlined above and the following Assembly Committees;
24. Written submissions on the Employment Bill were received from the Federation of Small Businesses (10 June 2002), the Northern Ireland Committee – Irish Congress of Trade Unions (20 June 2002), the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (4 July 2002) and the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment (4 July 2002). These submissions are presented in a separate section in this Report along with follow-up responses. 25. Members also agreed to seek the views of interested groups and individuals on the provisions of the Employment Bill by placing a public notice with full details of the Committee Stage of the Bill on the Committee’s web page of the Northern Ireland Assembly’s website. 26. At the meeting on 3 September 2002 members were briefed by a DEL official in relation to a paper prepared by DEL (30 August 2002) on the rights emanating from the Employment Bill for parents of children, due to be born on 6 April 2003, who were born pre-term. The earliest expected date for the Regulations that implement the provisions of the Bill to come into operation would be early February 2003, assuming that the Bill received Royal Assent in December 2002. However, members were made aware that a ‘gap period’ potentially exists whereby mothers who are expected to give birth from the week beginning 6 April 2003 could actually give birth as soon as late-November 2002. In instances such as these, when a birth expected after 6 April 2003 occurs prior to the Regulations coming into operation, the parents would be excluded from the statutory entitlements included in the Bill. 27. In a subsequent written submission to the Committee, DEL (12 September 2002) outlined the options that they were currently pursuing in order to overcome this situation: "The Department is considering how employers might be encouraged to honour the spirit of the legislation by allowing those employees, whose children are expected to be born after 6th April 2003, to take paid leave where their child is born prior to the Regulations coming into effect. The Inland Revenue has been approached regarding the possibility of making discretionary reimbursements to such employers. "In addition, the Department is in consultation with its legal advisers regarding the possibility of allowing eligible parents, whose children are born prematurely, to take their paid leave at a later date, following the implementation of the Regulations". 28. At the meeting on 5 September 2002 the Committee considered DEL’s letter of 4 September 2002 informing the Committee of the Minister’s decision to table two amendments to the Employment Bill at Consideration Stage: "The first amendment relates to the right to request flexible working and its application to members of the Armed Forces. Following a request from the Minister of State for the Armed Forces for an exemption for the Armed Forces, I have accepted it would be impractical for members of serving Armed Forces to have a right to request flexible working arrangements. "The second amendment also relates to the right to request flexible working. In the event of a dispute arising between employer and employee as to how the request is handled, it would be helpful for the binding arbitration scheme operated by the Labour Relations Agency to be available as an alternative to lodging cases with the already heavily burdened industrial tribunal system." 29. Also at the meeting on 5 September 2002 the Committee debated the general principles of amendments to the Employment Bill. The Committee supported the principle of a proposed amendment by both the Northern Ireland Committee – Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland: "that employee be changed to worker in the Employment Bill" It was recognised by members that this proposed amendment would have a more inclusive impact on the Bill by widening the number of people who could potentially claim the statutory entitlements within this legislation. This increase was estimated (assuming certain statistical relations in Northern Ireland would be the same as the UK average) at an additional 5% more people who could be eligible for these benefits. The Committee debated the use of the term ‘workers’ in previous employment legislation and agreed to request further information from Assembly Research on the legal definitions of ‘workers’ that were available in relevant legislation. Members agreed that a discussion on the categories to be included in the term ‘workers’ should be deferred until the next meeting of the Committee when more information should be available on this matter. Members also directed the Clerk to seek further information from the Equality Commission on their definition of ‘workers’ as used in their written submission (30 August 2002) to the Committee. 30. Other possible areas of amendments were considered by members including the extension of the right to request flexible working to be extended to those with other caring responsibilities, such as elderly parents, as well as the removal of the age barrier of six years, above which working parents of children would not be permitted to request flexible working hours from their employers. Similarly, consideration was given to removing the age restriction (18) on the right to request flexible working by parents of disabled children. Proposed amendments in regard to removing the age barrier of six years and removing the age restriction (18) did not receive Committee support and thus fell. Members agreed that the right to request flexible working for those with other caring responsibilities would need to be addressed in the future. It was recognised that the Employment Bill was based on consultation relating to working parents and the Committee would not therefore consider amending the current legislation. 31. Departmental officials confirmed that an Equality Impact Assessment on the Employment Bill had been carried out in accordance with Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act (1998). This assessment had concluded that there would be no adverse impact in relation to Section 75 categories. Departmental officials also confirmed that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission had ratified the original draft of the Employment Bill. 32. Members also debated the general principle of amending the short title of the Bill to more accurately reflect the scope and purpose of this legislation. It was agreed to continue this discussion at the Committee meeting on 12 September 2002. 33. Members agreed that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman should meet with the Minister to discuss the amendment agreed by the Committee, to change ‘employee’ to ‘worker’, in advance of the Committee meeting on 12 September 2002. 34. On 12 September 2002, members also discussed a further WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY the Equality Commission (9 September 2002) that outlined their reasons for supporting the change of ‘employee’ to ‘worker’ in the Bill. 35. Members also noted a further Assembly Research paper detailing a list of categories that might be included in any definition of ‘workers’, and how other legislation, both previous and current, would be impacted upon if the Committee agreed a proposed amendment to change ‘employee’ to ‘worker’ in the Employment Bill. 36. At the meeting on 12 September 2002 the Chairman informed the Committee that he had discussed the proposed amendment with the Minister for Employment and Learning, Mrs Carmel Hanna MLA, on Wednesday 11 September in Adelaide House. As a consequence of this meeting the Chairman expressed the view that that it would not be advisable, at this time, to adopt a wider definition to broaden the number of people eligible for the benefits outlined in the Employment Bill for the following reasons:
37. The Chairman further stated the opinion that it would also not be prudent, at this time, to extend the scope of the Bill to include ‘workers’ as opposed to just ‘employees’ in regard to the right to request flexible working. This was a possibility, open to the Committee, given that it had neither financial impact on the National Exchequer nor impacted upon past or current legislation, as it was a new right being introduced. The Chairman outlined his personal view that to make such an amendment would create a marked divergence in the Bill. This imbalance would mean that on the one hand benefits in regard to paternity and adoption leave and pay and maternity leave would only be available to ‘employees’ while in contrast the right to request flexible working would be available to a broader group under the definition of ‘workers’. 38. Members were also made aware that DEL had recently issued two policy documents relating to ‘Employment Status in Relation to Statutory Employment Rights’ and the ‘European Union Commission’s proposal for a directive on Working Conditions for Temporary Agency Workers’. The Chairman outlined the view that the Committee should reserve judgement on the matter of ‘workers’ pending further consideration and response by the Committee to these consultations, this was agreed. 39. The Chairman further informed members that, during his meeting with the Minister on 11 September 2002, he had been told that provisions did exist in the Bill that would enable the broadening of persons eligible to receive the benefits detailed in this legislation if so required. This was also stated in the submission (12 September 2002) made by the Minister to the Committee which affirmed that: "Furthermore, there is a power in the Employment Bill to extend rights to additional groups of people, should it be found sometime after the employment status review that it is appropriate so to do" 40. This statement was qualified by Departmental officials later in the meeting, 12 September 2002, who informed members that, contrary to the Minister’s letter which was in front of the Committee, the Employment Bill did not in fact contain powers to extend employment rights through future subordinate legislation. Rather, this enabling power, to introduce subordinate legislate to broaden the groups of persons eligible for benefits outlined in the Bill, was contained in other primary legislation. Departmental officials clarified that the relevant primary legislation were the Employment Relations Order 1999 (Article 24) and the Social Security Bill currently going through the Assembly. 41. The Committee concluded it’s deliberations on the Employment Bill with a clause-by-clause scrutiny on 12 September 2002 when the parts of the Bill were formally agreed. 42. Clause 1 – Adoption Leave The Committee considered clause 1 and agreed to recommend that clause 1 stands part of the Bill 43. Clause 2 – Paternity Leave The Committee considered clause 2 and agreed to recommend that clause 2 stands part of the Bill 44. Clause 3 – Statutory Paternity Pay (SPP) The Committee considered clause 3 and agreed to recommend that clause 3 stands part of the Bill 45. Clause 4 – Statutory Adoption Pay (SAP) The Committee considered clause 4 and agreed to recommend that clause 4 stands part of the Bill 46. Clause 5 – Financial Arrangements The Committee considered clause 5 and agreed to recommend that clause 5 stands part of the Bill 47. Clause 6 – Funding of Employers’ Liabilities The Committee considered clause 6 and agreed to recommend that clause 6 stands part of the Bill 48. Clause 7 – Regulations about Payment The Committee considered clause 7 and agreed to recommend that clause 7 stands part of the Bill 49. Clause 8 – Decisions and Appeals The Committee considered clause 8 and agreed to recommend that clause 8 stands part of the Bill 50. Clause 9 – Power to Require Information The Committee considered clause 9 and agreed to recommend that clause 9 stands part of the Bill 51. Clause 10 – Penalties: Failure to Comply It was proposed by Mr McElduff: ‘That ‘knowingly’ should be inserted before ‘fails’ in clause 10(1)a, 10(1)b, 10(3) and 10(6). The question was put and the proposed amendment fell. The Committee considered clause 10 and agreed to recommend that clause 10 stands part of the Bill 52. Clause 11 – Penalties: Fraud etc. It was proposed by Mr McElduff: ‘That ‘knowingly’ should be inserted before ‘fraudulently’ in clause 11(1), 11(2). 11(3), 11(4) and 11(5). The question was put and the proposed amendment fell. The Committee considered clause 11 and agreed to recommend that clause 11 stands part of the Bill 53. Clause 12 – Rights During and After Maternity Leave The Committee considered clause 12 and agreed to recommend that clause 12 stands part of the Bill 54. Clause 13 – Flexible Working It was proposed by Mr McElduff: ‘That flexible working be extended to all working parents of disabled children so long as they are dependent.’ The question was put and the proposed amendment fell. The Committee considered clause 13 and agreed to recommend that clause 13 stands part of the Bill 55. Clause 14 – Regulations The Committee considered clause 14 and agreed to recommend that clause 14 stands part of the Bill 56. Clause 15 – Amendments and Revocations The Committee considered clause 15 and agreed to recommend that clause 15 stands part of the Bill 57. Clause 16 – Commencement The Committee considered clause 16 and agreed to recommend that clause 16 stands part of the Bill 58. Clause 17 – Interpretation The Committee considered clause 17 and agreed to recommend that clause 17 stands part of the Bill 59. Clause 18 – Short Title The Committee considered clause 18 and agreed to recommend that clause 18 stands part of the Bill subject to the Committee’s proposed amendment:- That in clause 18 ‘Employment’ should be replaced by ‘Parental Employment Rights’ 60. Schedule 1 – Penalties: Procedures and Appeals The Committee considered Schedule 1 and agreed to recommend that Schedule 1 stands part of the Bill 61. Schedule 2 – Amendments The Committee considered Schedule 2 and agreed to recommend that Schedule 2 stands part of the Bill 62. Long Title The Committee considered the Long Title and recommended that the Long Title be agreed. 63. The Committee agreed that it would assist in creating a greater public understanding of the provisions included in the Bill if the short title was to be changed to the ‘Parental Employment Rights Act’. While this might deviate from practice at Westminster, it was felt by a majority of members that the Northern Ireland Assembly, in this instance, should depart from the Westminster convention of using short generic titles that did not really convey the scope of the legislation. 64. The Committee agreed a commitment to a full investigation into the rights and benefits to be afforded to ‘workers’ particularly in light of modern trends in the labour market whereby greater protection rights are being afforded to categories that fall within the definition of ‘employee’. Members agreed that there needed to be a consolidation in employment legislation, in particular, the use of ‘legally robust’ terminology in defining those categories of the workforce to whom the legal provisions apply. Further study into this matter would be shaped by the Committee’s input into the two consultation documents, referred to above, that had been recently issued by DEL. It was agreed that a consistent and uniform definition across all legislation would be a more effective way forward and a major policy decision. Furthermore, a wider consultation was required on this major issue before a final decision is taken. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING THURSDAY, 6 JUNE 2002 Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA The meeting opened at 2.06pm in open session. 2.20pm: Mr Dallat left the meeting. The meeting was inquorate; the Chairman decided to continue on an informal basis. 2.30pm: Mrs Nelis joined the meeting. The meeting resumed 5. Briefing from Northern Ireland Assembly Research on the Employment Bill Members were briefed by Northern Ireland Assembly Research on DEL’s Employment Bill. The briefing covered the following areas:
Following the briefing, the following areas were debated:
2.40pm: Dr Adamson joined the meeting.
2.50pm: Prof McWilliams joined the meeting. Prof McWilliams stated that she may have to leave to attend another Committee meeting in order to make up a quorum.
2.53pm: Prof McWilliams left the meeting.
3.00pm: Mr Dallat joined the meeting.
Members noted that copies of all submissions to the public consultations undertaken by DEL were available in the Committee Office for members’ reference. Members agreed to call the following witnesses in relation to the Committee’s consideration of the Employment Bill:
Action: Clerk. The Clerk was directed to obtain the recent report by the Federation of Small Businesses on ‘Lifting the Barriers to Growth in UK Small Businesses.’ Action: Clerk. Given that the proposals in the Employment Bill had already been the subject of public consultation by DEL, the Committee agreed not to place an advertisement in the local press inviting submissions on the proposed Bill. It was agreed to issue an invite via future press releases for comments to be forwarded for the Committee’s attention and also to use the Committee’s website. Action: Clerk. The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 3.20pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA [Extract] COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING THURSDAY 13 JUNE 2002, Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA The meeting opened at 2.07pm in open session 7. Briefing from the Federation of Small Businesses on the Employment Bill Members noted the Report by the Federation of Small Businesses ‘Lifting the Barriers to Growth in UK Small Businesses,’ and the written memoranda provided for the evidence session. Members were briefed by Mr W Mitchell, Mr D Munster and Mr G Roberts from the Federation of Small Businesses. Following an introductory presentation, the following issues were debated with members:
The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.17pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA [Extract] COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING THURSDAY 20 JUNE 2002, Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA The meeting opened at 2.21pm in open session. 2.50pm: Mr Hutchinson left the meeting. The meeting was inquorate; the Chairman suspended the meeting. 2.54pm: Mr Hutchinson joined the meeting. The meeting resumed. 2.56pm: Mr Hutchinson left the meeting. The meeting was inquorate; the Chairman suspended the meeting. 3.17pm: Mr Hutchinson joined the meeting. The meeting resumed. 5. Briefing from the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (NIC-ICTU) on the Employment Bill Members noted that the Employment Bill had been passed to the Committees for Finance and Personnel, Social Development and Enterprise, Trade and Investment for comment. The Committee was briefed by Mr B Gourley, Ms A Hope and Mr L McBrinn on the Employment Bill. The following issues were highlighted during the introductory presentation:
The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.35pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA [Extract] COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING THURSDAY 27 JUNE 2002, Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA The meeting opened at 2.16pm in open session. 7. Briefing from Department for Employment and Learning officials on the Employment Bill Mr R Gamble, Mr W Caldwell and Ms L Taylor from DEL, briefed the Committee on the Employment Bill. The following issues were debated with members:
Dr Birnie and Mr Carrick both declared an interest.
3.20pm: Mr Hutchinson left the meeting.
4.05pm: Mr Hutchinson returned to the meeting.
4.10pm: Mr Hilditch left the meeting.
4.18pm: Mr Hutchinson left the meeting. The meeting was inquorate; the Chairman suspended the oral evidence session and the meeting. 4.20pm: Mr Hutchinson returned to the meeting. The meeting resumed.
Officials stated that they would provide written answers to several areas raised during the briefing. Members agreed the need for the Committee Stage to be completed on time if possible, given the amount of subordinate legislation to follow from the Employment Bill, which needed to be approved before the dissolution of the Assembly in March 2003 The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.32pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA [Extract] COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING THURSDAY 4 JULY 2002, Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA The meeting opened at 2.17pm in open session. The Chairman informed members that Mr McElduff had replaced Mr Kelly on the Committee for Employment and Learning. The Chairman also informed members that Ms Gildernew had replaced Mrs Nelis on the Committee. 7. Briefing from the Equality Commission on the Employment Bill Members agreed that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman could, if necessary, seek an extension to the Committee stage of the Employment Bill, prior to the next Committee meeting. Mrs J Harbinson, Prof B Fitzpatrick and Ms M McSorley from the Equality Commission, briefed the Committee on the Employment Bill. Members noted the Equality Commission’s written submission, which was tabled. The following issues were debated with members:
3:00pm: Dr Adamson left the meeting.
3:10pm: Mr Hilditch joined the meeting. 3.11pm: Mr Hilditch left the meeting.
Representatives from the Equality Commission agreed to forward any suggested amendments they might have on the Employment Bill to the Committee by the end of August 2002. The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 3.32pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA [Extract] COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING TUESDAY 3 SEPTEMBER 2002, Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: None The meeting opened at 2.07pm in open session. 3.00pm. Mr McElduff left the meeting. 3.30pm. Mr Hilditch left the meeting. 3.45pm. Prof McWilliams left the meeting. 6. Committee Stage of the Employment Bill Members noted the proposed amendments to the Employment Bill which had been received over the summer recess from the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (NIC-ICTU); the Federation of Small Businesses and the Equality Commission. The Chairman informed members that he had requested a research paper on the potential costs of several of these amendments and that this would be available for the next meeting. Members noted the Minister’s response to queries raised with DEL officials during their evidence session with the Committee prior to the summer recess. Members also noted the five draft Statutory Rules from DEL which would stem from the finalised Employment Bill. Members noted that the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment had no comment to make on the Employment Bill. It was agreed to meet on Thursday 5 September 2002, to debate the general principles of the Employment Bill, prior to undertaking a clause-by-clause reading of the Bill. At this meeting, members would also consider whether to seek an extension to the Committee Stage of the Employment Bill. 4.03pm. Mr Dallat left the meeting. Mr W Caldwell from DEL briefed the Committee in relation to the rights emanating from the Employment Bill for parents of children, due to be born on 6 April 2003, who were born pre-term. 4.08pm. Mrs Carson left the meeting. As the meeting was inquorate, the Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.05pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA [Extract] COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING THURSDAY 5 SEPTEMBER 2002, Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA The meeting opened at 2.07pm in open session. 2.10pm. Mr Dallat joined the meeting. 4. Committee Stage of the Employment Bill Members noted an Assembly Research paper detailing the potential implications of several amendments which had previously been considered by the Committee. Mr R Gamble and Mr W Caldwell from the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL) briefed members on two amendments which would be laid by the Minister at Consideration Stage. Officials stated that they would clarify, in writing, several issues raised by the Committee. Action: Clerk 2.20pm. Dr Adamson joined the meeting. The Committee considered a motion to request an extension to the Committee Stage of the Employment Bill. It was unanimously agreed: ‘That in accordance with Standing Order 31(5), the period referred to in Standing Order 31(3) be extended to 18 October 2002 in relation to the Committee Stage of the Employment Bill (NIA Bill 11/01).’ The Clerk was directed to lay the motion in the Business Office. Action: Clerk 2.30pm. Ms Gildernew joined the meeting. The Committee debated whether the scope of the Bill as it stood should be extended to include ‘workers’ as opposed to ‘employees’ and the usage of these terms in previous employment legislation, as well as their relationship to recent developments in the labour market. It was proposed by Dr Birnie and seconded by Ms Gildernew: ‘That employee be changed to worker in the Employment Bill.’ The question was put and the amendment agreed as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 4. Ayes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie, Mr Dallat, Ms Gildernew and Prof McWilliams. Noes: Mr Carrick, Mrs Carson, Mr Hilditch and Mr Hutchinson. Abstentions: None. It was agreed that a discussion of the categories to be included in the term ‘workers’ in the Committee’s agreed amendment should be deferred until the next meeting. Members debated whether the right to request flexible working for parents with disabled children under 18 should be extended. 3.20pm. Mr Hilditch left the meeting. It was proposed by Mr Dallat and seconded by Ms Gildernew: ‘That flexible working be extended to all working parents of disabled children so long as they are dependent.’ The question was put and the amendment fell as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 4. Ayes: Mr Dallat, Ms Gildernew and Prof McWilliams. Noes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie, Mr Carrick, and Mr Hutchinson. Abstentions: Mrs Carson. 3.25pm. Mrs Carson left the meeting. Members debated whether to extend the scope of the Bill to allow working parents of children over 6 years of age to request flexible working. 3.29pm. Mr Hilditch joined the meeting. It was proposed by Ms Gildernew and seconded by Mr Dallat: ‘That the right to request flexible working be extended to all parents of children under the compulsory school leaving age.’ The question was put and the amendment fell as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 5. Ayes: Mr Dallat, Ms Gildernew and Prof McWilliams. Noes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie, Mr Carrick, Mr Hilditch and Mr Hutchinson. Abstentions: None. Members considered whether the right to request flexible working should be extended to workers with other caring responsibilities. Whilst it was agreed that this was an issue which would need to be addressed in the future, the Employment Bill was based on consultation relating to working parents and the Committee would not therefore consider amending the current legislation. Departmental officials confirmed that the Equality Impact Assessment in relation to the Bill had concluded that there would be no adverse impact in relation to the Section 75 categories. Officials also confirmed that the Bill, as drafted, had been ratified by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. Members debated whether the current short title of the Bill adequately reflected the scope and purpose of the Bill and agreed to continue their deliberations on this matter at the next meeting. The Clerk was directed to seek further information from the Equality Commission on their definition of ‘workers’ as used in their written memorandum sent to the Committee. Action: Clerk Members agreed to request further information from Assembly Research on the definitions of ‘workers’ used in similar previous legislation and, in particular, whether these included the self-employed. Action: Clerk Members agreed that the clause-by-clause reading of the Bill would be undertaken at the next meeting. It was agreed that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman should seek a meeting with the Minister to discuss the amendment agreed by the Committee. Action: Clerk The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.00pm. DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA |