COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

Report 01/01R

Thursday 23 November 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:
Ms M Cinnamond )
Ms M Connolly )
Mr K Donaghy ) Educational Guidance
Ms E Kelly ) Service for Adults
Ms E Speers )

660.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and thank you for coming. As the Chairperson of the Committee of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, I welcome Eileen Kelly, director of Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA); Eleanor Speers, its deputy director; Mags Connolly, co-ordinator of the Basic Skills Unit; Kevin Donaghy, co-ordinator of the Project Funding Unit; and Marian Cinnamond, co-ordinator of Advice and Guidance.

661.

We are delighted to have you here this afternoon as part of our inquiry into the workings of the training system, broadly defined, in Northern Ireland. The Assembly Members here are aware of EGSA's valuable work at the constituency level. I certainly am aware of some projects that I have been linked to in south Belfast. We also know that you are doing critical work at the coalface - maybe I should say the chalkface, if indeed chalk is still used - as regards dealing with basic skills, a subject that has come up repeatedly in this Committee and in the Education Committee. Do you wish to make statements first and then move to questions?

662.

Ms E Kelly: We will make a few opening statements. Thank you, you have relieved me of the task of introducing members of the delegation, and thank you for inviting us to meet you today.

663.

Our plan today is to give a broad overview of EGSA's position and to make some general observations. Then my colleagues will tell you about the different areas in which they are involved and make observations relevant to their area. Finally, as a team, we will deal with any questions you might have.

664.

Your inquiry is about looking at how the contribution of higher and further education and training to Northern Ireland industry can be improved. I want to start with a few broad opening statements, such as the principles on which today's evidence, and on which our work, are based.

665.

First of all, we are concerned about access to learning and participation in learning for any reason or motivation. Your own terms of reference suggest that you are interested only in vocational learning. However, EGSA is also concerned about those adults who do not participate in learning, who do not see the value of learning and whose contribution to the social and economic development of Northern Ireland could be significant if they were encouraged to consider learning and, indeed, welcomed into it.

666.

Secondly, learning has to be relevant and appropriate in order to be attractive for traditional non-participants.

667.

Diversity of provision is essential to maximise the potential that is out there. Learners and tutors in basic skills in informal community-based provision are in a lower level than those in vocational learning. They must be made to feel as valued as learners and tutors in higher level courses, whether these are vocational or academic.

668.

Adults will be encouraged to progress through learning if their achievements are recognised and accredited. It is important to recognise and value the role of the Northern Ireland Open College Network in encouraging learning and also the importance of the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System in the framework.

669.

Finally, while we appreciate Northern Ireland's current economic success, we believe that people deserve more from learning and training for current or imminent employment opportunities. Indeed, people need to be able to cope with change and should have access to broad-based learning.

670.

Those are our principles. I now want to highlight some of the key points of the organisation. We did supply you with some background information on the organisation. It is quite lengthy, so I will not go through it all. I just want to highlight that EGSA has been around for over 30 years and was set up to benefit the community in Northern Ireland through the advancement of education of adults. Our organisation is particularly keen on reaching out to those adults who benefited least from formal education. Nowadays they are known as the non-participants. They might not have got through the 11-plus or they might have left school early, but they did not really achieve through formal education.

671.

EGSA's role has been to ensure that people know how to make the best use of the learning opportunities available to them. The organisation collects information on learning opportunities and provides information, advice and guidance to adults who need access to learning.

672.

We have always collaborated with providers in the statutory and voluntary sectors, and with other organisations and interest groups concerned with the learning and support needs of adults. My colleagues will tell you more about what those organisations are. We have never formally advertised our services, but we have tried to make sure that we are known by those community-based organisations that have face-to-face contact with learners.

673.

EGSA has always been keen on getting involved in adult learning initiatives to promote the value of learning. We have always been keen to work with others to improve provision for adults. Indeed, it is one of our activities, within guidance, to feed back to providers of learning what is required or how it is required.

674.

We have always been fortunate in being able to provide a service for people who wanted to learn for whatever reason. In recent years, most of our users have been vocationally motivated. But we also see learning as having a role for people as parents, as consumers, as citizens. It has a strong role in helping them to make a contribution to their communities.

675.

When the programme for peace and reconciliation was set up, we were invited to disburse the funding that was earmarked for the measure to improve access to and quality of education, training and employment services within the employment sub-programme. The Project Funding Support Unit's role is to develop and assess applications. A selection panel, comprising representatives from across the breadth of adult learning interests, takes decisions on the funding applications. Once the funding has been decided on, the unit monitors the activity within the projects.

676.

The Project Funding Support Unit has recently received excellent feedback from the Northern Ireland Audit Office on its operation. The feedback that EGSA gets back from participants - I have included that in this document - illustrates the role of non-vocational learning and also emphasises the strong role of community-based learning as a starting point for learners, and especially reluctant learners.

677.

In that document I have included some evidence from projects of the supporting role of the whole EGSA organisation. Not only does EGSA develop, assess, fund and monitor but, in addition, through the provision of information, advice, guidance and basic skills back-up, it also provides support for community-based projects. In a sense, we are adding value from the whole organisation.

678.

The strategic approach taken by EGSA in Peace I - as we have come to know it - not only assisted more adults to access learning, but it also laid the foundations of work that we have been building on through the lifelong learning agenda. We are currently preparing a strategy for Peace II that will build on the experience and knowledge gained through the careful administration of Peace I. It will match and complement the lifelong learning agenda and support the Northern Ireland Executive's policies for education and training.

679.

The lifelong learning agenda that was published in February 1999 in Northern Ireland included three initiatives for EGSA - the Information, Advice and Guidance Network, the Basic Skills Unit, and the most recent addition to our services - the Learn Direct helpline. We set that up in partnership with Broadcasting Support Services (BSS), which is an English-based organisation that has been operating helplines in Manchester and Leicester for the past few years. The helpline is accessed through a Freefone number. The advisers who staff the helpline provide information and advice on learning opportunities, and because they are based in EGSA, they can refer callers for further information, advice and guidance, or for additional support in the area of basic skills. Those are a few key points that summarise the organisation.

680.

Ms Speers: EGSA's information and advice work is largely by phone, and this year it attracted just under 4,000 calls. The Learn Direct helpline has fielded over 3,000 calls and some of those requested packs in response to broadcast initiatives. The guidance service has seen just under 5,500 people, on either a one-to-one basis or in groups. That reflects the growth and strength of the organisation following the government lifelong learning initiative.

681.

We gathered statistics on many of the individuals that we have contact with. There is a big difference between the percentages of men and women - 35% male and 65% female. That is also reflected in research across the water. There is an even age spread, although only 2% were over 55, but 65% of the people who we saw were in the 25 to 44 age range. Thirty five per cent were employed and 38% were unemployed. Others were not in the range where those statistics affect them.

682.

We now cover a much wider area because of the change in the structure of the organisation. We used to be very Belfast-based, but that is no longer the case. About 28% of the people in these statistics were Belfast-based, and about 20% of them were in other Education and Library Board areas, with about 10% of people in the Southern Education and Library Board area.

683.

We asked people what prompted them to come to us. This is an interesting piece of evidence about learners because it applies to people whatever their present educational qualifications or aspirations. The major motivation is work-related, getting on in a job, changing job, or getting a job. Almost equally important is the motivation to learn for personal development, for the family or for the community.

684.

Those statistics of motivation are true of the ABE helpline which we operate. Some people have basic skills problems and slightly more of those are unemployed, as we would expect. But the motivations are the same for this group of users - to improve employment prospects, for personal development or for family reasons.

685.

There are a few things about adult learners that make them different from other younger learners, and the most obvious difference is their adultness. Adult learners demand respect and demand to be treated with dignity and confidentiality in all transactions. They have fine sensibilities and some may feel a little uncomfortable if they have little experience of the formal learning situation.

686.

Anyone who is engaged with adult learners will be aware of their rich variety of skills and abilities. Through life, people develop the capacity to cope with things, but they do not realise that they are learning in the process. They have not been taught; they find out how to deal with things for themselves. But that learning is part of the make-up of that person and contributes to the process of getting them back into learning.

687.

We all lead busy lives and time and energy is at a premium. Therefore most adults study part-time. Many are short of money and have to prioritise how they spend it - even if they have lots of money - and putting themselves first is difficult. If they are on benefits, they have to work within the rules of the benefits system. Sometimes that can be crushing and can interfere with the learning progress, depending on how different benefit offices apply the rules.

688.

The attitude of adults towards their learning is crucial. The following important points have been drawn partly from our own experience and partly from published research on work across the water, particularly Veronica McGivney's research. There is a scarcity of research on adult learning in the North of Ireland. Many adults' attitudes to returning to learning are coloured by good or bad memories of school and the language of school. Adults who return to learning risk change in how people regard them, their status and their self-respect. There is a risk of failure, and failure is more damaging than not participating. Feelings therefore must be handled carefully.

689.

Tutors in adult learning are very skilful in handling these factors and it is important for the Committee to note this. Some of these attitudes and barriers show up in research as particularly affecting men, who often take a very instrumentalist approach to learning - they are less interested in personal development learning. However, they may be interested if there is a vocational purpose and a job at the end. That also needs to be addressed.

690.

Peer pressure, social context and family influence show up in the research across the water and in anecdotal evidence here. People choose not to participate in learning, rather than being blocked from participating. We are a country with strong community, peer and family ties, and these are influential. If they are influential for learning, they are also a great force for expanding the widening participation agenda. If people are not well disposed to learning, they might experience a contrary effect.

691.

The motivation - whatever it is - is where EGSA starts to work with adults, helping them to identify that they want to make a change. Our organisation tries to move them towards positive motivations. We do not say: "You must do a course in that vocational area". We try to get them started and warmed up, as adult learners on subjects which interest them. EGSA helps them look at choices so the information must be accurate, comprehensive and appropriate. We have, as Ms Kelly mentioned, information on a variety of things other than just learning - vocational information, support information, such as on child care. It would be helpful if information already existing about labour market skills shortage predictions, and so on were readily accessible to adult learners and those who work with them.

692.

Advice must be close to where those adults are, within their comfort zone, and based on accurate information. It also has to be accessible and this is where the phone becomes very useful. Last week, a man rang our Adult Basic Education (ABE) helpline. His employer had asked him to do something about his weak literacy skills and had advised him to phone our ABE helpline, while offering his support and encouragement. The caller still needed to be talked through what would happen to him, how he would be treated and what his choices would be when he got to the place of learning. People need that kind of advice and encouragement, especially unfamiliar learners.

693.

The last part of what we offer is detailed guidance to help people evaluate the big choices they are making. They are investing their self-confidence, money, time and their abilities into what might be changing their employment chances and educational qualifications.

694.

The pay-off can be huge. Anybody who has worked with adult learners is aware of the tremendous and rapid changes that can be made. Once somebody has done one course and has learned about themselves, they have broken the ice and making more ambitious choices is much easier. The converse is also true: if the course does not work, it becomes a very big barrier to going further.

695.

Ms Cinnamond is going to outline how we have developed our services and built on these processes for this kind of user.

696.

Ms Cinnamond: I am going to talk about the work of the EGSA's Information Advice and Guidance (IAG) Network team. The role of the IAG team in the participation of adults in learning is not to deliver learning, but to enable adults to access appropriate learning. EGSA's IAG team offers information, advice and guidance to adults wishing to return to or progress in learning.

697.

The team gathers, collates and holds information on all learning opportunities for Northern Ireland adults, including distance learning and opportunities outside Northern Ireland. It also has information on related areas, such as student finance, access to provision and careers information. The IAG team produces information in formats which others can easily access - for example, a range of information sheets. It also deals directly with enquiries from the public - although Learn Direct is taking on a bigger proportion of those - and from many other information advice and guidance practitioners, in a wide range of situations. The team works very closely with the Learn Direct helpline.

698.

The Adult Basic Education Support Service (ABESS) offers support to potential learners with specific basic skills needs. On one level, that is a referral service, in that they are making the links to the ABE tuition provider, but it also helps develop the confidence and motivation to actually make that first step. A woman phoned in because her father had told her she was stupid just once too often - she was a young mother. She knew she wanted to make those steps but had many fears about what would happen when she went in, whether everybody would know she was stupid if they saw her going into the college, whether it would expose her. She was very emotional throughout the first contact, and it is an emotional area for many people. It took two or three contacts with the ABESS team before she took that step and is now on a learning programme in a college.

699.

Our guidance workers offer a direct service to individuals and to groups. They offer one-to-one guidance with adults to help them to understand their learning needs and to explore the impact of learning on their lives, and to put it into context. Quite often that context is vocational. They deal with a wide range of clients, and vocational choice is a factor for many people - for example, for those who want to re-enter the workforce or people whose work is under threat of redundancy.

700.

One of the interesting things about working with people facing redundancy is that our guidance workers have become involved both with management and workers also, a community group contacted us when a textile firm was closing.

701.

Sometimes people feel unfulfilled in their work, and they want to develop their skills and potential to change their role or to be able to offer more skills in their existing work situation. Our guidance workers also give group guidance to learners and potential learners. Sometimes these people have made a comfortable first step, and they now see that learning is relevant for them and that there is potential for them. Some programmes that offer that sort of thing are the Workers' Education Association's Second Chance programme, the UNISON Return to Learn programme, or courses run by the Belfast Women's Training Services. Our guidance workers add value to those programmes by talking to the groups and enabling progression at the right time when people have got the taste for learning and are thinking about where they are going. There is a real buzz about going into these groups. There is a lot of mutual encouragement, and it helps people to make the next steps.

702.

The guidance is available in the Belfast area, but, as Ms Speers has already said, guidance workers are based in other locations throughout Northern Ireland. As well as delivering direct guidance, they have a very important role in building up our wider Information Advice and Guidance (IAG) network in Northern Ireland. They are forging links and remain an important point of contact for all IAG practitioners. The task of using information, advice and guidance to widen participation in learning is greater than EGSA can undertake on its own. We are not the only people who can deliver it, and we are not always the most appropriate people to do that. A lot of people have to arrive at a certain point of confidence and motivation before they can ever dream about contacting EGSA to make an appointment to see a guidance worker. Through the network, it is important that we establish links with people who can help these individuals further back on the road to learning.

703.

The IAG network brings together a wide range of people involved in information, advice and guidance so that we can share resources - for example, it would not be cost effective for every community group to have the sort of information resources collated that we have at EGSA - everybody can tap into them. We offer mutual support and make appropriate referral. For example, there was a computer course in a women's centre and someone's husband wanted to join in. It was not appropriate for him to do so in that setting, but through the network of appropriate referrals he was helped too. It can share staff development opportunities, and EGSA has been running a series of information and networking sessions that have been favourably received among the IAG practitioners. That will strengthen and raise the profile of IAG for adults. Our guidance network advisors are always trying to form new alliances with potential network members. There is a range of people involved in our network. Earlier this month we had a development day when we looked at things such as a code of practice for the network. There were almost 100 participants from over 60 different organisations throughout Northern Ireland at that day, and the organisations included people for whom guidance is the major part of their role, such as the careers service or guidance people in further and higher education, as well as people from both urban and rural community groups who are reaching people who may not have entered that environment with the intention of learning. They might, for example, be interested in joining the management committee, but be frightened that it would expose their lack of literacy skills. Members of the groups can reach the people who might benefit most from learning.

704.

We have participants from the National Association of Volunteer Bureaux, those who work especially with the traveller community and from employers, trade unions and women's groups. The Simon Community works with us when people are rebuilding their lives and wish to take steps to participate in learning, by helping them to make those links. There are also training organisations, general disability organisations like the Cedar Foundation and more specific ones like the Royal National Institute for the Deaf.

705.

As well as the formal part of the programme we run for the network groups, many informal links have been made, something which is a very important part of our work. For example, someone from a women's group might make direct contact with the Training and Employment Agency's lone parent adviser. A young man from the Royal National Institute for the Deaf was able to offer assistance to community groups - or any other group present - if a potential learner was deaf. Quite often, people working in a similar field in different areas come together and share what they do, realising they have many issues in common.

706.

The building of the network has been greatly strengthened through contacts made and projects started through the Peace Project Fund Support Unit, about which Mr Donaghy will talk later, which is a very important link. We are also actively engaged with Springvale in developing a qualification for community- based practitioners for whom providing information, advice and guidance is part of their role, but not big enough to justify their undertaking a full professional qualification. They need something to help strengthen and support what they do, making them more informed. The Northern Ireland Open College Network, the Community Work Education and Training Network Endorsement of Learning Programme and the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System, to which Ms Kelly earlier referred, are involved. We are also in the very early stages of discussions on developing a similar qualification for further education tutors.

707.

We plan to broaden contact to others who can reach marginalised adults, allowing them to encourage potential learners and signpost them towards appropriate learning. Those groups are people like occupational health workers, learning partnerships, human resource managers and others from the workplace.

708.

The strategic document for the Information, Advice and Guidance network, 'Rising to the Challenge', is at the pre-publication stage and will be launched soon. However, its concepts are already being tested by the IAG network.

709.

Ms Kelly: Ms Connolly will now tell us about the Basic Skills Unit.

710.

Ms Connolly: Thank you very much. The Basic Skills Unit was set up as part of the lifelong learning agenda in 1999 and launched in November 1999. We are a team of seven individuals based in EGSA, with support from our colleagues in the administration support unit and the project funding support unit. Our unit is guided by a committee of 16, with representation from employers, trade unions, the main adult learning providers, the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Education and Training Inspectorate. Throughout the last year, we have set up a number of ad hoc committees and working groups to take forward the work of the adult basic skills strategy which we are currently developing. One of those groups, the workplace sub-group, is significant to this inquiry.

711.

The unit submitted a strategic framework to Minister Farren in July setting out the first stage of the strategy, securing the quality framework.

712.

We launched a further document a couple of weeks ago called 'Raising our Sights'. We have supplied Committee members with that document. It is the start of a process to build a longer-term strategy for Northern Ireland. We are working at the unit, with the Committee and with other providers to say that this is a major issue, requiring immediate co-ordinated action, and a long-term strategy.

713.

One of the other major initiatives that we are involved in is the funding of the voluntary/community sector to provide adult basic skills learning opportunities on the ground. In the past year, we have funded 17 projects. They have ranged from farming co-operatives in partnership with local further education colleges to traveller groups and women's education centres. An example is Banbridge Community Network which is currently working with Upper Bann Institute of Further and Higher Education. The programme is designed to enable the farming community to access literacy and numeracy through the medium of information and communications technology (ICT). It was advertised in the local newspapers and in the local farming association, and it had a major impact on the farming community. Eighty-two people turned up on the first night of the programme. It is a huge step for people to come forward and admit that they have literacy problems. Obviously the hook of ICT played a major part in that. Those sorts of programmes have an impact, not only on those who are receiving training, but also on the wives, sons and daughters, and the wider community.

714.

I am sure that many of you are very familiar with the statistic - it is often quoted and is a major issue for Northern Ireland - that 24% of our working-age population are at the lowest level of literacy ability. Literacy is described by the International Adult Literacy Survey (IAL) as both numeracy and literacy. Nineteen per cent of those currently in our workforce are at Level 1. That is approximately 48,000 people. Of those 48,000 people, 75% did not feel that their levels of literacy and numeracy were limiting their job opportunities. That is quite a staggering figure.

715.

Thirty-six per cent of those at Level 1 are unemployed. If the unemployment rate is 6%, those identified in the survey as being in that 36% are slowly but surely moving into our workforce. The percentage of people within the workforce with these difficulties is going to increase year on year.

716.

People with low levels of literacy are most likely to be in receipt of social security benefits, in the lowest income bracket, and have the lowest educational attainment record. David Blunkett - as I identified in the submission to the Committee - was quoted in 1997 as saying that the cost to industry is approximately £10 billion. There is a cost to Northern Ireland, not just in financial terms, but much more in terms of society, as we grow towards creating a new community.

717.

We have already seen the report of the National Skills Task Force and the Report on In-Company Training on Ireland's future skills needs, both of which encapsulate the need to address literacy and numeracy. Both have this issue enshrined within their priority areas. We have an opportunity now to ensure that that is encapsulated within the main recommendations of the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force.

718.

Our growth industries are e-commerce, the finance and personnel industry, and the hotel and catering industry. The increased use of literacy and numeracy in ICT will have an impact on them. As the industries grow, they are going to place further demands on people to improve their literacy, numeracy and communication skills.

719.

A recent survey, conducted by the Basic Skills Agency in England and Wales, found that 17% of people would take up a basic skills learning opportunity if they could get a job, and 13% would take up a learning opportunity if they could progress within their current job.

720.

In Northern Ireland, we can give people incentives, and we can motivate them, yet provision on the ground is scarce, limited, ad hoc, lacks coherence and is virtually non-existent within the workplace. There are currently 5,500 people participating in adult basic skills learning opportunities across Northern Ireland. Only 6% of those are being catered for by New Deal, yet 36% of unemployed people are at Level 1.

721.

There is very little activity happening in the workplace. We carried out a survey in association with Business in the Community recently, which involved 1,700 businesses. The majority of those, 92%, were small to medium-sized enterprises, some 71% did not offer basic skills training of any kind. A further 47% did not think it was actually necessary to offer this, yet we know from research that adults prefer to learn in the workplace because they have perhaps had a bad experience in school.

722.

It is clear that we need to address the small and medium-sized industries further. We have lessons to learn from our colleagues in the Republic of Ireland and England, but we need to look at the micro business in Northern Ireland - the small owner/manager business. The issue of funding lacks coherence right across the sector. Where you actually access provision varies. What you are charged is different. Adults who have missed out on basis skills the first time round should have free entitlement.

723.

People need access to information, advice and guidance, and as you have heard from my colleagues, not just individuals but employers also need to know how to work their way through the learning maze. We need to know about research, what actually works, what will work, and what is actually going to improve levels of literacy and numeracy. Two hours a week over the course of a year is surely not going to improve a person's literacy and numeracy skills.

724.

I want to talk very briefly about the future. The document, 'Raising Our Sights' is a start. This document is not a definitive model. It is the start of a process, which we hope will engage those who are maybe outside the adult learning field at present. This is a society issue, and not just an issue for education. Further to that, the workplace sub-group will also be submitting a work place basic skills strategy in early 2001. We have the opportunity through the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force, and we need to be looking at this as a cross-departmental issue.

725.

We have raised a number of issues that need to be addressed - research, building the capacity, increasing our tutor base and looking at the marketing promotion in the broadest sense. We also need to look at local action planning, target setting, and not least, context specific target setting because we need to look at our growth industries, where they are and how we can tackle them, as well as how we can ensure that the opportunities are going to be available for people within those sectors.

726.

We need to de-stigmatise and promote the culture of adult literacy and numeracy within and beyond our workplaces, and we now have an opportunity to maximise the potential of ICT with the excellent Information Advice and Guidance services that are open to people in Northern Ireland. The workplace sub-group raised an issue on a number of occasions which it would also like to see addressed, which is that we need to ensure that the upstream is being tackled as well. I know we work very closely with our colleagues in the Education and Training Inspectorate, and I know a number of initiatives are being worked on within the Department of Education as well. We do not want our current school leavers to become the adults with literacy and numeracy difficulties of tomorrow.

727.

Ms Kelly: Finally, Kevin Donaghy is going to explain how we are using peace and reconciliation funding in education and training.

728.

Mr Donaghy: I know you have taken many statistics, but I am going to be very brief about this. We have heard about the learners and the activities of EGSA, and I want to look at what has been achieved with the use of the European Union Specialist Programme for Peace and Reconciliation and, specifically, the Employment Sub-Programme Measure 3 which concerns the improvement of accessibility to, and quality of, education, training and employment services.

729.

To date we have funded 98 projects, 53 of which are still live or nearing completion today. Some £4·3 million has been allocated to a range of groups, including many groups who have never been able to access or receive any source of funding before. We have had over 25,000 participants on those programmes, and we have funded 154 jobs, both full-time and part-time. The participants have gained in excess of 20,000 qualifications - those range from Open College Network (OCN) Level 1 right through to degree or masters level qualifications. We have also provided 24,000 hours of guidance.

730.

We have developed a range of courses, but particularly Open College Network accredited, which will have a value under the Northern Ireland Credit and Accumulation Transfer System and will allow participants to progress into more formal learning programmes. We have produced a range of resources which will be of use to others - particularly outside the field of the Peace Programme - that can be used in the wider adult learning field as a whole.

731.

I think you have all received a copy of our list of funded projects. I do not intend to go into any of those in great detail, but I will give a few examples. We provided a small grant in Antrim to carry out a feasibility study on providing open learning facilities in that area, and a major grant in east Down, to provide a family learning programme looking at the pertinent issues of ABE, ICT and personal development.

732.

In a couple of projects we as a funding organisation looked at the issues of sustainability, which is always very pertinent in funding. We decided that the money would be best spent if they trained a cohort of tutors, which would remain in the community and become a tangible community asset after the funding had ceased. Those are some of the projects. The rest are detailed in the booklets.

733.

After the decisions have been made by our selection panel, our role is to make sure that the money is administered to the groups appropriately, as dictated by the European Social Fund regulations. Verifying and vouching expenditure is time consuming and labour intensive, but it ensures that the money is providing the best value.

734.

We also add value in a community development role. Many groups we have funded have never received funding before and they have no idea of the principles of accounting or accountability. We spend time developing monitoring and control systems, which are useful when the funding stops or if the groups get funding from another source.

735.

We encourage and support the development of partnerships with these projects in order for them to look at the issue of sustainability and to widen their area of access. For example, funding was given to a further education provider in the Coleraine area to develop its provision of outreach ABE services, and from that, and from its regular contact with the groups, it was able to develop a Community Education Forum. That forum is now an established vehicle which promotes adult learning and brings all the players together. It also brings in the providers and the courses that are necessary to meet the needs of the local community.

736.

We also encourage the activities of EGSA as a whole. We look to the IAG to help participants progress. We look to the Basic Skills Unit for information and support in developing quality issues around ABE projects. We also look to ABESS for its support in adult basic education in general.

737.

We also look at other funding avenues. When a project comes to an end, questions are asked about other sources of funding, or whether we can act as a sponsor or referee towards another source of funding. We can use the information gathered as part of the monitoring process to help the group to submit an application to another funding body.

738.

Under Peace II, we would obviously continue to work with the Basic Skills Innovation Fund, and there would also be an opportunity to sustain and develop the work begun under Peace I. We want to develop strategies that support and complement the other initiatives under the lifelong learning agenda. We have a particular interest in those classified as non-participants, to ensure that they are ready to take advantage of more mainstream programmes. We want to develop ideas that have a cross-sectoral or cross-departmental theme, such as furthering our work with the rural farming community, ethnic minorities or people with disabilities. We see our work as contributing to the proposal in the draft Programme for Government, which aims to extend accessibility, choice and excellence through the education system, with particular reference to access to high-quality education for all, and to

739.

We would like to provide programmes and activities to redress the male/female participation imbalance in learning, and to address some of the issues raised in the EGSA report to the Committee.

740.

Mr Beggs: We have a great deal of sympathy with improving educational standards. People need support. We would support your work with individuals and your input to the economy. Ultimately, if trends in employment continue, these people will be needed for employment.

741.

You have spoken about community outreach. Of the £4·3 million you spent in the last tranche, £26,000 was spent in my constituency of East Antrim, where there is no further education college. What are you doing to address this inequality in future funding? How do you encourage applications where there is a weak community infrastructure that is not actively pursuing your money? There are people throughout Northern Ireland who could benefit from your guidance. How will you convince me that Peace II will be spent equitably in every constituency, helping disadvantaged people in all communities?

742.

Ms Kelly: For quite some time we have had no money. Our Peace I money was all committed. The final bit was committed last year. As I am sure members are aware, peace money had to hit the ground so quickly that there was very little scope for further development. We certainly identified gaps in the scope of projects we have funded. We are very keen to work with you and others to ensure that those communities are not disadvantaged next time around

743.

Mr Beggs: Will you actively help people fill in applications, or put the applications together? Some organisations do that. Have you such a role in mind?

744.

Ms Kelly: We consider that good development work and would certainly be keen to do it.

745.

Mr Dallat: My only comment would be on the modesty of your presentation. You made a reference to the Coleraine area. You will have to convince the Minister, Dr Farren, of the impact there, how those people you trained went back into their own communities and set up community groups, pre-school groups and after school homework clubs. It transformed the whole community, which was divided by sectarianism, social disadvantage and other things.

746.

I speak with some emotion because I understand the problems. You must help the Committee to get the message across to the Minister - he has to give you a fair share of the cake. It is disgusting that 24% of the population suffers the worst indignity of all, the inability to read and write. I am embarrassed that your organisation has been in existence for 20 years and it still has to come cap in hand. If the Assembly does nothing else, I hope it will address that problem. If it does, the Committee will rise on the tide.

747.

The Chairperson: I am sure that the EGSA representatives will be very pleased to hear your comments.

748.

Mr Dallat: I hope that the Minister also hears them.

749.

Ms Kelly: I am keen to take your advice on how to further promote the work of EGSA. The adult learning centre at the Causeway Institute of Further and Higher Education is an education forum that we would be keen to replicate in the Larne and east Antrim area.

750.

Mr Beggs: I would welcome some information on that.

751.

Mr Dallat: The Committee could go to Coleraine to see what EGSA has done for disadvantaged people.

752.

Mr Carrick: During the presentation you said that funding across the Province lacked coherence. Will you develop that issue and give us your views on how improvements could be made?

753.

You also said that there is a weakness in the training by employers. Would some incentives for training induce a better environment in the work place?

754.

As for the efficiency of EGSA's programme and a joined-up approach to providing advice, is EGSA comfortable with its relationship and partnership with New Deal, career guidance, officials in further education colleges, the Training and Employment Agency, training providers and employers. Is there scope for improvement? If so, can you identify the weaknesses and tell the Committee how improvements could be made in a joined-up approach? I suspect that there may be areas of overlap and unnecessary duplication.

755.

Ms Connolly: You first referred to funding and the lack of coherence in funding across the adult learning sector. Adults may access literacy and numeracy programmes through the new University for Industry centres (UfI) or Learn Direct centres that have ICT provision free at access point. There is also 80% provision based in further education colleges, not all of which is based in the college, but in partnership with community groups.

756.

Much work takes place in the voluntary sector. As mentioned previously, the ending of Peace I moneys means that there is an interim period where there is a gap. However, there is a plethora of funding opportunities. Funding comes from DHFETE, the New Opportunities Fund (NOF), the National Lottery and from Europe.

757.

People who access as individuals may have to pay. In many cases it is a nominal fee, but there are additional costs such as child care and travel costs. There is no consistency. There is no model in the work place for accessing funds for adult basic skills and learning opportunities.

758.

We have a situation - it is not quite a pilot project - in Moy Park Ltd in Craigavon, where there is a partnership approach. The Department funds Upper Bann College and is also in partnership with Moy Park. There are some models that we could look at and build on.

759.

In answer to your question, there is a lack of coherence and the work place subgroup is currently looking at this issue. I hope the Committee will welcome its strategy document when it is produced early in 2001.

760.

You also asked about what incentives we could give to people. The work place subgroup has also been looking at that issue and at what strategies are in place in England and the Republic of Ireland.

761.

Some of the discussion has centred around incentivising work places through the Investors in People award, and making explicit the literacy and numeracy elements, to ensure that those learning opportunities are offered to employees. There is talk about giving tax incentives to employers to encourage learning opportunities in the work place. Learning from others is as useful as anything else. We would like to see champions of the issue.

762.

We hope to address many of these issues through the work place strategy, and we would be more than willing to share our views with the Committee.

763.

Ms Kelly: On the third question about the joined- up approach, we see ourselves as taking the lead in assisting DHFETE to formulate a strategy for guidance and basic skills. We are working very closely with the Careers Service and, as Ms Cinnamond and Ms Speers explained, with the other players in the field.

764.

Ms Speers: It is a very clever, interesting and important question. The network structure is an attempt to avoid duplication and harness, on a local level, everyone who has a guidance and information and advice role for adults. We each come at it from a slightly different angle, and we have told you at length what our angle is.

765.

Although the Careers Service deals with all ages, its work is mainly with younger people in colleges - it is in-house. By working together, nobody misses out, and by working on a local level and sharing together we use resources efficiently. That is already starting to work on a local level.

766.

Another thing we are experiencing through network events is what happens when we invite people with similar tasks to meet in a town the size of Newry, for example. One woman was giving advice in a centre for abused women and met another woman who was advising New Deal clients. They had not met before but they realised how similar their processes were. The person working with disadvantaged adults realised how valuable it would be to call in someone from New Deal. With local networks we hope to get collaboration and not duplication.

767.

Ms Kelly: We are also concerned about the quality of information, advice and guidance that we are delivering and that our network members will deliver. There are Quality Standards, which have been developed by the Guidance Council, which we are implementing in our own practice and sharing with members throughout the network.

768.

Mr Hay: I have a couple of questions. On the funding that you are providing, is that the same programme that is coming through the partnerships?

769.

Ms Kelly: Yes. We are a sectoral partner, in the employment sub-programme.

770.

Mr Hay: In 1996 there was Peace I, and then there was Peace II. All of Peace II must be spent by June 2001. Are we now into Peace III?

771.

Mr Beggs: No, we are at the start of Peace II.

772.

Ms Kelly: We are actually still in Peace I - it came in two halves.

773.

Ms McWilliams: Peace II is not due to come on-stream until June 2001.

774.

Mr Hay: Looking at the projects funded in Londonderry, none of the grant awards were on the east side of the river. Seven projects were funded, all on the west side. There is a large population east of the river, so I wonder why this is the case. Also, how do we tackle the issue of grants in rural areas generally in Northern Ireland, areas which seem to have lost out totally? Getting people involved is a problem, especially in remote areas. Looking at the awards highlights the fact that rural areas are not covered as well as they should be.

775.

How do you evaluate applications, and what sort of benchmark is there about peace funding and people receiving the awards? How do you evaluate the groups who are to receive the money?

776.

Ms Kelly: There are three questions, so if we take the third one first, Mr Donaghy will deal with evaluation.

777.

Mr Donaghy: When evaluating a group, you consider its ability to handle the money, what it will do with it, and its proven track record. Many groups had no proven track record of handling the amount of money they might receive. There is an in-depth consultation with the groups involved to get to know them. We will already have worked with some of the groups, providing advice and guidance from other avenues, and sometimes we know some of the players in a group. We may have some general information about the group, but we need to build on that through contact at first application stage. You determine if the group has a structure and a management committee, or if it could put a structure in place that would allow us to give it some funding. The group may apply for more later, and it is up to a selection panel to decide if its idea warrants the extra money. The selection panel spends a lot of time discussing and evaluating the appropriateness of a group, and considering if its project is achievable, or has it been tried elsewhere and failed. The selection committees' members have a broad range of interests, and they cover many fields within the adult learning sector. They use their knowledge from previous projects or experience from other areas when considering a group and its capabilities, and getting funding can be a long drawn-out process.

778.

Mr Hay: Would you look at the capacity building within a group, if that were necessary?

779.

Mr Donaghy: Yes. In my previous role as a Development Officer under this programme I spent a lot of time with groups considering their ideas. After a few selection panels you get a feel for the idea, and where the money is best suited. You may tell a group that it is a worthy project, but some issues need strengthening. Our selection panels may look at a route of progression, and ask the group to build this into their application. EGSA can provide that service, so if the groups build that into their project we could have two guidance sessions, perhaps one at the start and one at the end. People can complete the project and then consider the best avenue for them. You bring in players or ideas from previous selection panels or successful projects, and you tell the group what needs to be strengthened or developed in a different way.

780.

Ms Kelly: My answer concerning the rural areas is similar to my answer on the Larne question. The speed with which the money had to get there did not leave us much scope for development. Many of the projects that we funded were Belfast-based organisations with a complete coverage of Northern Ireland. One that springs to mind is the Workers' Educational Association, which operates throughout Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO) and the National Union of Students-Union of Students in Ireland (NUS-USI) got funding from us. They cover all parts of Northern Ireland. But we would be very willing to take your advice on how we could target those rural areas in future.

781.

As for the west bank in Derry, there are some projects like the Verbal Arts Centre, for example, or the Forum for Community Work Education which might have addresses in the west side, but which cover the whole area. However, we would be very willing to work with you on gaps.

782.

Mr Hay: With Peace II coming on-stream next year, have you started to address the areas where there are gaps so that you are prepared?

783.

Ms Kelly: We do not know if we will receive funding under Peace II. We very much hope that we will, so yes, we have started to work on our strategy and to look at those areas that we have not been able to cover. We await information on how Peace II will be delivered and whether we have a role.

784.

Mr Byrne: Thank you for the presentation. It is very worthwhile and addresses the needs of a particular group of people that we have not heard much about in the past. My question relates to the different organisations that you depend on for delivery. How do you feel about the Basic Skills Units within FE colleges? Reference was made to the Workers' Educational Association. Is a formal place like a college the best location for providing basic skills training, or would community centres near people be better? What is your attitude to formal qualifications or some competence based assessment for those people? Regarding Peace II, Mr Hay asked about formulating a bid because some people want a greater emphasis on economic objectives rather than social objectives.

785.

Ms Kelly: As for where adult basic education should be provided, we say that it should be everywhere, and it should be supported wherever it is. Obviously we are concerned about the quality of adult basic education.

786.

Ms Connolly might be best placed to deal with the first two questions.

787.

Ms Connolly: We have mentioned specifically that 80% of provision currently takes place within further education colleges, due to a historical background. Funding is directed accordingly. We have put forward a strategy that adults do not choose to learn in one particular environment. We want to engage adults with basic skills learning opportunities wherever those adults are. People do not stand up in the street, wave their arms and say "I have literacy and numeracy difficulties". These people are one of the most difficult groups to reach out to.

788.

If someone is in his or her local community centre, someone there can work as a mentor to facilitate that learning and can help them progress. This has often been referred to as the "barefoot doctor approach". We should allow for the fact that a person can choose. If they go to their local further education college, it raises their self-esteem. If they are going to college, they are studying. We can engage people in the work place. We should not only look at one provider of opportunities. We should reach out and support right across the board.

789.

You referred to formal qualifications. People now know about and value the availability of certification and qualifications. They know they can hold their head up and say "I have a qualification and can succeed and show that to my employer. I can move on and progress", which raises a person's confidence and self-esteem. They have something which shows their worth and ability.

790.

Sometimes qualifications are the only route and this can become a barrier. If we are going to look at an adult basic skills strategy for Northern Ireland, we have to look at all the opportunities. People must be funded to learn about learning, not just to learn for specific outcomes. People who choose to learn need to be encouraged and supported to work towards a goal. One single model will not fit all people and we need to look at the breadth.

791.

Seventy-five per cent of people who access further educational colleges attain qualifications, but that is not their main incentive for accessing learning. The main gain is the confidence they acquire.

792.

Ms Kelly: In relation to your third question, the economic emphasis on Peace II. I reiterate that there is more to learning than economic value. As far as we are concerned there is more to Peace II than economic value. We have submitted what we can and would look to the members' support.

793.

Ms McWilliams: I love the names of some of these projects that have been funded. There are a couple here: "Men, the Way Ahead" and "A Programme for Isolated Men".

794.

The Chairperson: Do not make political capital out of this.

795.

Mr Beggs: There are a few women's groups as well.

796.

Ms McWilliams: There is another great one called "The Wise-up Project".

797.

The Chairperson: Are you going to say who that is for?

798.

Ms McWilliams: On a serious note, I see that you gave a large sum of money, £80,000, to the student body to advise them on their finances. This is an issue for another day, but I wonder how easily it sits, as it concerns how students can access funding for other projects. That would not be the highest priority on my agenda.

799.

The report is excellent because it flags up where the problems are and you are very open and straightforward. We are familiar with some of the more serious problems. It might be tough at this stage since you have just kicked off on this new strategy, but one thing you note is the lack of consistency in relation to the programmes across the providers. It would be great if we could get our heads round the differences that exist between what is going on in further education, in the voluntary sector, and in the adult learning sector.

800.

There is an issue around training and around accreditation and who is getting what for what. I have two related questions. Are the national standards produced by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority for England appropriate for Northern Ireland? Did you get a chance to feed into them now that you seem to be allowing yourself to see them through?

801.

You refer to a national test for Northern Ireland. Is that something new in relation to yet another steering group? Do we need a qualification and curriculum authority for Northern Ireland? This Committee will recommend pointing to the future. England has a Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, we do not. Do we need one, given that there is such a range of inputs into the curriculum and a variety of outputs? You queried what two hours per week over a year could do for anyone.

802.

Did I hear you right when you said that Blunkett had argued there was £10 billion being lost to the economy through lack of numeracy, literacy and basic skills?

803.

Ms Connolly: Yes.

804.

Ms McWilliams: We should probably try to work out what the figure would be for Northern Ireland - a quick calculation tells me it is £200 million. That is a sizeable sum of money, so if we were to do some kind of balance sheet, that is probably one of the ways we might come at this. The range of inputs and the consistency is certainly one issue, and you have now set up a number of groups on these issues. Given people's different standards how would you deal with, or reconcile, the flexibility that you may still want to retain?

805.

I am worried about the lack of consistency in training for tutors. You said that there is very little graduate training for adult literacy. I do not think that just anyone can do this work; highly skilled individuals need to do it. Is graduate training still an issue, because you seem to have highlighted it as a big problem in Northern Ireland? Although you might need flexibility, it seems to me that there may be too much flexibility - that might be too heavy a criticism. Would you respond to that, because this is clearly something that this inquiry needs to address?

806.

Ms Connolly: You have clearly identified the four key areas that we have been asked to advise Government on in the first year: national standards that have been developed by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority in England; a new adult basic skills curriculum; national tests; and an initial tutor training framework.

807.

These objectives were set for us by Minister Farren, and we have been involved with the Moser Report, which I am sure you are familiar with. We have been involved in the Moser activity - the technical implementation group - to look at what is being developed in England, in order to look at its appropriateness to Northern Ireland, to look at what is happening in the Republic of Ireland, where some £73·6 million has been allocated to take forward a literacy and numeracy strategy, and also to look at what is happening with our colleagues in Scotland. We are not looking at only one model, but we have been asked specifically to look at all the Moser recommendations.

808.

We have consulted widely, right across the adult learning sector, on all these issues. We have set up a number of curriculum projects - in particular, in the voluntary sector, in the work place in association with New Deal, and in the further education colleges - to look at what is needed, because it is not a matter of simple transplantation, as it may not be relevant.

809.

We must find out what we need in Northern Ireland, what is going to work best for us, how to assure quality, and especially, as you have said, to look at that breadth. A key area is partnership, and through the innovation fund we have already shown how we can work in partnership, where further education staff are working with those in the community sector.

810.

Not just anybody can go out and teach literacy and numeracy because it is skilled work. It is a skill in itself to work with adults. We are looking at different models and pilot projects and the standards of the curriculum documents that have been developed in England to see if they would suit here. We are also looking at what we would need if they do not suit and what we could do to add value for a Northern Ireland context. These issues are very much alive.

811.

To comment on the question as to whether we need a qualifications and curriculum authority for Northern Ireland, we have one that specifically looks at key skills in the National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) base. We also have another regulatory authority in Northern Ireland, the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessments (CCEA).

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