COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

Report 01/01R

238.

The Chairperson: Dr Anyadike-Danes, you have been doing work on IT (Information Technology). Is this related to the analysis of demand and supply conditions in the Northern Ireland labour market and an examination of the labour market for IT workers in Northern Ireland which the NIERC published in April?

239.

The work is excellent and I find the reports interesting to read, but it would have been easier to absorb if some sort of summary had been provided. I appreciate that they are at draft stage - that is a minor point. I may have got this wrong, but from reading the analysis of demand and supply conditions in the Northern Ireland IT labour market, I got the impression that we were arguing that there was actually a surplus supply of IT graduates coming out of Northern Ireland, and indeed institutions, relative to demand. That may be true. I find that conclusion surprising, which of course could show that anecdotes and what you read in the newspapers is not always correct.

240.

Perhaps I did not interpret the many graphs correctly. Could you talk us through that report as that is a very interesting finding.

241.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: Let me just take the first point you made. Two working type papers were produced earlier on, and those are being amalgamated and repackaged as a final report with an executive summary and so on. As I explained in answer to an earlier question from Monica McWilliams, we have a fairly extensive round of consultations with different people and one must have something to show them. We made early drafts of the report, and while this is not necessarily going to be the final form, this is how it looks. The reports use different words at different stages, and do not look exactly the same.

242.

As I say, the final publication of that particular material will be in a Skills Task Force paper. You made a second, more substantial, point about that study's actual findings.

243.

You have quite correctly interpreted that it projects a surplus of new IT graduates over demand in Northern Ireland. These are projections, and there are a number of scenarios with larger or smaller surpluses, however the basic position is that higher education institutions in particular, are producing, on the basis of the most reasonable assumptions about demand, a surplus of IT graduates. The great caveat in this, which should perhaps have flashing lights attached to it, is that those scenarios balancing supply and demand were constructed on assumptions. The critical assumption on the supply side is that enrolments will continue to grow at the same rate at which they have been growing in the past.

244.

In a section called 'Risk Factors', one of the variants we considered showed that if we had stopped enrolment in its tracks at the 1999 level - the last data available - we could have eliminated that surplus by 2005. That is a measure of where we are. We are projecting a surplus, but it is not huge, and unless educational policy continues with the same sort of expansionary attitude towards IT, it could change. If the creation of new places were to stop, the surplus might well be reduced. However, the basic position is one of surplus due to the two factors I mentioned at the outset when I discussed IT.

245.

There is a counter-intuitive element. We must understand that we are talking about people qualified in IT. This does not mean there will be a surplus of people with IT skills in Northern Ireland, which seems very unlikely, but the fact that there could be a surplus of people qualified in IT is a different question. We carried out surveys, not just among computer service companies, but in the public sector and in universities. The graduates are all in the universities' IT information sections rather than computer science departments, where they do not actually employ IT graduates.

246.

Relatively few IT graduates work in IT in the public sector. A large number of people do IT jobs, but they are not qualified. The jobs are being done by people without IT qualifications. That is the most important step in understanding what differences there might be between casual conversation about IT shortages and what is going on in this case.

247.

The other important element is the matter of demand for new graduates. Where we heard evidence from employers that they had difficulties recruiting or that vacancies were hard to fill, they were typically looking for graduates with three or more years' experience. No university or any other institution is producing experienced people. People with three years' experience would have graduated three years ago. As far as employers are concerned, the big gap currently lies not with raw graduates, but with those who are experienced and who are even further up the scale. We do not have sufficient data to track new graduates, gauging them in respect of appropriate experience and seeing where they will be in the future. In a sense, the way we perceive our connection with policy is that we are producing new graduates. We are focusing on that, rather than on what will happen to experienced people further down the line.

248.

They are the two critical differences that you have to bear in mind when you are trying to translate a general idea regarding shortages of IT people into the figures that we have here. You have to allow for the facts that fewer than half of the employees in computer services actually have IT qualifications and that less than one quarter of those people were hired as raw recruits. Therefore the demand for new graduates in any year is very much less than the increase in the numbers employed.

249.

Mr Morahan: The PricewaterhouseCoopers salary survey shows that where skill shortages in information technology have been most widely recorded there is little evidence of a salary explosion. This is counter- intuitive. Only sixty per cent of IT graduates enter IT jobs, and we are still losing some to higher paid positions elsewhere. We want to indicate that the shortage, if there is one, is not as big as is sometimes suggested.

250.

The Chairperson: What do you mean by "losing some"?

251.

Mr Morahan: To the Republic of Ireland.

252.

The Chairperson: Are you building in any assumptions for migration?

253.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: We do not have an assumption about migration. New graduates who emigrate would come straight off the top of the survey. In understanding the dynamics of the market, employers who were losing staff were typically losing them to others in Northern Ireland. There was no strong evidence to suggest competition from the Republic of Ireland or London. They were not losing existing staff to organisations outside the Province.

254.

Mr Scott: A further piece of evidence that we should take account of is that international estimates show that by 2005 there will be a shortage of 1·5 million people in the software industry in Europe. Northern Ireland is well placed to attract some of those jobs. We do not want to suggest that we do not need those people.

255.

Mr Dallat: I would like to take this opportunity to ask about the former ACE scheme. During those years, by accident or by design, a lot of people were trained in community-based skills. We are now feeling the effect of the scheme's loss, certainly in the community that I represent. Is there an acceptance that there are skills that are badly needed that were delivered under ACE which, for all its inadequacies, are not being delivered under New Deal? Does the Task Force take this on board and will it be making any recommendations in that respect?

256.

Mr McGinnis: This is something that the New Deal Task Force has taken on board. There has been a fairly strong representation of ACE supporters on that, and we were given New Deal in its raw state from London. We have had a chance to reshape and change it, and it is coming up for a review now because it was a three-year programme. We have fed some of those issues to London in the hope that we can get some changes, but it is at an early stage.

257.

Mr Arbuthnot: New Deal is scheduled to be rolled forward beyond the life of the current Parliament. A lot of thought is being given in England, informed by experiences in Northern Ireland, about the type of format and structure of any continuation. One of the issues that is being looked at is the length of experience that ACE participants had.

258.

Mr Dallat: That is a very brief but a very positive and very welcome answer.

259.

Mrs Nelis: Since we are talking about training, I am sure you have noted the difficulties in the Walsh Visa training programme in the United States. My understanding is that a lot of the trainees are getting very positive experiences, doing well and getting good quality training, but there seem to be some glitches and the press is running with this. I had five sets of parents contact me last weekend. I was told about daughters and sons phoning to say they had been expelled from their accommodation, and revealing the quality of work in the hotel - filling ice boxes for $240 per fortnight. I am just raising this. I am not expecting you to give me answers, but it might be something you want to look at.

260.

Mr McGinnis: It was raised at our Board last week. Two senior officials have gone to the United States to investigate and, hopefully, we should know more in the next couple of weeks. We are very concerned at what is happening, from the reports we were hearing.

261.

Mr Arbuthnot: We have sent, or are about to send, almost 300 young people from Northern Ireland to the United States. There is a further group currently delayed and I will explain that. We will end up sending around 270 - 280 young people in the present phase.

262.

About 80% of the young people we have sent are having positive experiences, they are settling into their new environment and the jobs are going well. But you are quite right; there are problems - and a variety of reasons for the problems that are occurring. Some young people, having been unemployed prior to going out to the United States, have found the employment culture somewhat different from the employment culture here. The expression that was used to me, for example, is 'two strikes and you are out' if you do not show up for work. No excuse is taken - if you do not phone in, that is a warning, and the second time you are out.

263.

There is a different culture regarding alcohol in the United States. During working hours people turning up under the influence or smelling of alcohol receive warnings. There is a very different culture and not all our young people have adjusted to that.

264.

Equally, another problem is that all jobs on offer were not properly or accurately described in enough detail to the young people before they went. That is a learning point for us as well. There are a variety of reasons. My officials who went out returned yesterday and I am going back to the office to have a detailed chat with them this afternoon. They have been out with colleagues from FÁS, meeting with the State Department and Logicon, the organisation contracted by the State Department. There is an evaluation process going through at the moment. My view would be that we should not rush any more people over onto the Walsh Visa programme We should step back a little and look at these issues, see how we can prepare people better and ensure the reception facilities in the States are better than at present.

265.

A group was expected to travel to the United States two weeks ago, and that has been delayed. The problem is that there is a backlog in the accommodation, particularly in Washington. People who go over onto the programme are put into temporary accommodation in Washington, for up to 4 weeks. They are then expected to move into flats and other accommodation. That movement has not taken place with the speed that we anticipated, and it is creating a backlog. I am happy to go into more detail, but that is a broad briefing.

266.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate that some of the young people have positive experiences, but I am very concerned about the others. I want to ask you about what happens when they come home. Are they penalised when they go to seek benefits?

267.

Mr Arbuthnot: I do not know what the situation is regarding benefits. That is something that we would have to discuss with the Social Security Agency. It would be wrong to speculate on that now. However, I would be pleased to take it up with the Social Security Agency.

268.

The Chairperson: We have already requested written briefing on the Walsh Visa programme from the Minister. My understanding is that we will be getting a response before the next Committee meeting so we will have more briefing material for the same day next week. Perhaps the issue will come up again.

269.

Mr J Kelly: I was glad that Mrs Nelis brought up that question on Walsh Visa, because some of us did flag up the potential inherent danger two years ago. You are right - there is a different work ethic in America. Having said that, when I was serving my time a horn hooted in the morning for a minute, and if you missed that minute you were deemed late. If you were late on two mornings, you were sent home. That was our work ethic. I want to ask you about the role of apprenticeships and other forms of vocational training. Can you comment on that?

270.

Mr Scott: We touched on it earlier and I am happy to deal with any specific question. Essentially we have tried to get employers more involved in the training of young people and young people more committed to their training over the longer term - the three or four years that it takes to complete an apprenticeship. We have done that by changing the funding regime to enable employers to employ young people immediately they leave school and to allow them to work through a three-to-four year training programme, ending up with a Level 3 NVQ and additional qualifications. To date, all the evidence is that the retention rates are much higher in the apprenticeship programme, and they are growing more quickly than we had hoped. We are very pleased about the success rate of that.

271.

Mr Dallat: I hope that we do not stop the Walsh Visa programme. I have spoken to some people who have come back from it. Some had a tough time but others have come back feeling that they have really achieved something that will stand them in good stead for the rest of their lives. Perhaps there is a learning curve in providing the right support.

272.

Employers have had difficulty differentiating between Walsh people and other people, a difficulty that they have probably exploited. I realise that we are on the record here, but we all encouraged the Walsh programme, and we know there have been problems with it. I would not like to see it stopped, because there are advantages. Am I right in saying that about 80% go to university and are successful and that the remaining 20% fall out? That is not to excuse anything that has happened; that was unfortunate. However, you would certainly have my support to fine-tune it to ensure that people in the future get skills in the hospitality and IT industries, and build on them because we badly need them.

273.

Mr J Kelly: We are not being negative, but this was being heralded as a new dimension in training and people were going to go and come back fully equipped and trained. However, we now find that this is not happening. It needs to be looked at and finely tuned. Young people ought not to be exploited away from home.

274.

The Chairperson: Let us not get into Walsh Visa today. That is a subject for another day.

275.

Mrs Nelis: We should applaud Congressman Walsh because his idea is excellent in principle.

276.

The Chairperson: It only remains for me to give very heartfelt thanks to our visitors who have given us over two hours. This has been useful in respect of the work of the Task Force, the Skills Unit and the Priority Skills Unit, and I have little doubt, as our inquiry develops, that we will be coming back to you. It has been a very fruitful afternoon.

277.

Mr McGinnis: Thank you. We have found it a very pleasant experience and we would be happy to share our views with you at any time. Obviously, we will get feedback from you, and the more feedback we get the better the outcome will be.

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Mrs Nelis
Ms McWilliams

Ms M Lyons ) Springvale Training; New Deal West

Ms F McLernon ) New Deal West

278.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and welcome. Perhaps you might give us a brief summary of your concerns and answer questions afterwards.

279.

Ms Lyons: We are happy to do that and to speak about our strengths and weaknesses.

280.

Ms McLernon: My role in the operation of New Deal West, which is a lead partner in the west Belfast consortium, is to look after finance and administration, New Deal clients, consortium members and associate members.

281.

We have 10 consortium and 23 associate members drawn from training providers and community groups in Catholic and Protestant districts of west Belfast and the city centre. We service three training and employment agencies and jobcentres in the Shankill, Andersonstown and Falls.

282.

I would like to look at the strengths and weaknesses of the programme for the unemployed person. One of the main strengths of New Deal for the unemployed is that our consortium offers something for everybody. A wide variety of training and community groups offer employment. There is also a wide choice of skills and training and opportunities in the voluntary and environmental arenas to gain experience through paid employment.

283.

A weakness for the unemployed person is the eligibility for New Deal: it favours 18 to 24 year-olds. They can access it when they have been unemployed for six months, while those over 25 must wait 18 months. When people lose their jobs, they often consider retraining, and we inform them that they must wait 18 months before they can access New Deal. After 18 months' unemployment their motivation has largely evaporated.

284.

The unemployed must use local providers, except where a training option is not available; then they must look outside the area. This can discourage mobility and limit real choice for the unemployed. The qualifications are mainly restricted to NVQs. Recently a client wanted to study for a City and Guilds qualification in photography, but he was unable to access that through New Deal. He had to choose an NVQ and opted not to obtain a qualification but settled for 13 weeks' work experience.

285.

Participants between 18 and 24 can only access an NVQ Level 2. I cite the example of an unemployed person who had an NVQ Level 2 in hydraulics and pneumatics and a Level 2 in welding, which he got through the Jobskills programme. He got a job in Mackies and thought that he was set for life. He is now unemployed and has been called into New Deal. He would love to become fully qualified in welding.

286.

Providers' main strengths are that they are long-established community groups and some of them have developed New Deal projects. One group in the Shankill works with part-funding with the Probation Board and has a voluntary option for young offenders to work on their personal development; it can also selectively place them in the community. Some have dropped out because their behaviour was not acceptable, but this option is used to bring them back on board.

287.

In our Turf Lodge project the provider has gained European funding to build a family centre. He accesses the New Deal client under the employed option, and young offenders are trained in bricklaying and joinery as they build the centre. A weakness for the community groups is that many providers rely solely on New Deal funding and depend on numbers coming through.

288.

Their other weakness is that they lack knowledge about changing employment trends and skill needs in industry. Although they are using New Deal to meet services in the community, they cannot access information to develop skills for full-time employment. All the providers have found that the six-month and 13-week terms are too short. They have no sooner got people into a work routine, particularly those with low motivation, before those people must go. It will have taken some of them, particularly those who have been unemployed for over five years, 13 weeks just to get into a routine.

289.

As regards our strengths as lead partner, our main role is to interview clients and give them independent advice on the providers and training organisations so that they have as much information as possible before deciding on where to go. Our main weakness is that our computer system - the system provided by the Training & Employment Agency (T&EA) - is not adequate for New Deal administration. As a result a large amount of paperwork must be computerised, and that is taking us away from our main role. The T&EA is looking at the computer system and at the forms required, but it is a cumbersome system to administer.

290.

The other problem with being the lead partner is that we are funded on the numbers that come through New Deal. These fluctuate and that makes planning uncertain. We receive no information from the T&EA or the Social Security Agency (SSA) to enable us to plan on how many will be coming through in the next six or nine months. Another weakness is that our New Deal staff is short-term - this also applies to the community groups - so we constantly have to update new staff on the system.

291.

As regards liaising with the T&EA, the main strength is that the New Deal has had more success than any previous Government programme in bringing together a wide variety of cross-community providers from different areas with a common goal. In two of our three jobcentres we interview the clients on site. From a very early stage that enabled us to develop good relationships with the personal advisers. I have worked with unemployed people for 12 years, and this programme is the first to create a real partnership rather than "them and us". The main problem is the computer system, and that has been compounded by staffing problems. Vacancies for personal advisers are unfilled, and two of our offices have backlogs. There are not enough personal advisers to deliver New Deal in our area.

292.

The Chairperson: We have only 20 minutes for questions. Do you want to say anything else?

293.

Ms Lyons: There are some figures behind our presentation, but we will not go through them now.

294.

Mr J Kelly: What role do advisers play in New Deal and how does that affect you? How well is the process working in west Belfast?

295.

Ms McLernon: Two personal advisers told me that they had caseloads of 130 and 102. That includes all the New Deal options, such as disability and lone parent schemes, not just the ones that we deal with. That is too many to be able to develop relationships. One of the problems is that once people come off options they do a three-month follow-through.

296.

A person might be with our provider, then leave, and then undertake the follow-through with a personal advisor. We cannot deal with them in the interview period even though there is a backlog of clients. Since other roles are involved in the process there is not the flow of people that there should be. When personal advisers deal with clients, particularly if a client is a volunteer or is coming through a particular option, our providers prefer these applications to be processed fairly quickly. They do not see the point in holding on to somebody if they have a decision to make. The problem arises when somebody wants to sit all 13 weeks. That is difficult to deal with.

297.

Mr J Kelly: What is your position as regards computers?

298.

Ms Lyons: The New Deal West System was bolted on to what was effectively a Jobskills monitoring system. It was not designed for that purpose. They know that as well as we do. It was very improvised; and when our providers wanted information on forecasting, it was not readily available. This meant that Ms McLernon's team had to concentrate more on administration, and that diminished the quality of the personal attention to the client.

299.

Mr J Kelly: What is the solution?

300.

Ms Lyons: Apparently ICL has been commissioned to design a system from scratch. This time they have consulted providers, to an extent, to ensure that our queries are answered and not just the T&EA's.

301.

Whether this system is perceived as working well in west Belfast depends on how it is measured. Of course it has reduced unemployment in west Belfast; primarily because people who were claiming illegally can no longer do so. It has been a great success.

302.

Some of the people we deal with have had huge success, which has been the key to getting employment. Others have struggled. It comes down to the individual and the range of personal issues that he or she has to deal with: literacy and numeracy, low motivation, lack of confidence or personal and family problems. A lone parent with five children overcame all difficulties to become a Microsoft master in 13 weeks. Others still struggle with literacy and numeracy. There have been varying degrees of success, depending on the individual.

303.

The Chairperson: Your summary is very interesting, especially page four where you have listed the outcomes. However, I find this quite hard to interpret. What percentage of the people you are dealing go into long-term jobs?

304.

Ms Lyons: Unfortunately that figure is not available. This is another illustration of how we collect figures. Employment outcomes and qualifications are measured for some programmes but not for others. It is broken down into individual programmes because it would be difficult to aggregate. People who complete the programmes move into employment, but those who do not also move into employment.

305.

The Chairperson: Thank you, and thank you for the additional information you supplied. We might get back to you for clarification. The Committee wishes your work every success.

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Mr T Wright ) New Deal Co-ordinator, Bryson House

306.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee I welcome Mr Trevor Wright, representing Bryson House, who will be giving us another perspective on New Deal from the voluntary sector.

307.

Mr Wright: We are currently a full partner in the New Deal consortia in South and East Belfast and Castlereagh and the consortium in North Belfast and Newtownabbey. We are an associate member of the West Belfast consortium. We offer placements in the New Deal 18 to 24 for voluntary and environmental, and the intensive activity period for the over 25s. To date we have had just under 300 people pass through the scheme since our first trainee in August 1998. We have also become involved in the New Deal employment option and have employed 11 people through that - 8 are still employed with us and the others have moved on to new employment.

308.

We became involved in New Deal because we had a long history with the ACE programme, having been involved with it since it started in 1981. We were also aware that the idea for the programmes for long term unemployment was changing. We were involved before the demise of ACE and knew what was going to happen. We had a very successful ACE programme with 60-75% of the people going through with a positive outcome of employment or further training.

309.

Since the introduction of former ACE sponsors into the consortia in South and East Belfast and Castlereagh we have taken on responsibility in an advisory capacity. We also do the administration for VSB South City Community Projects, St George's, Ulster Historical Foundation and the Northern Ireland Chest, Heart and Stroke Association. We are responsible for the submission of claims and advising them on the administration of the programme.

310.

We have created a number of projects that are currently on offer specifically targeting New Deal. We wanted to do something that would be positive and interesting and show people that they could achieve something. One is 'No Age to Going Age', an energy efficiency project dependent on New Deal placements. We run the project in Belfast, and it has been replicated in Newry, Enniskillen and Coleraine. We have also been involved in the Innovation Fund, having won a contract for that last year. We try to look at projects that are interesting, different, innovative and challenging for people. Along with the placements that we would operate within the charity itself we would work a great deal with other charities in Belfast that are not in a consortium but are happy to take placements. Obviously, since the demise of the ACE programme they miss out on that. We provide placements to organisations we are involved with.

311.

The Chairperson: Thank you. Would you be willing to take questions for 10 minutes?

312.

Mr Wright: Yes, that is fine.

313.

Ms McWilliams: Thank you for your very honest paper. It gives us a good insight into what you are expected to deal with. I note that you say that the focus is on the jobless, but it seems to me that quite a lot of time is taken up with other aspects that led to unemployment. You are listing quite an incredible range of things - homelessness, ex-offenders, people with alcohol and substance dependencies, mental illness and, on top of that, literacy and numeracy problems. How is such a programme expected to deal with all of that? Is that really the crux of the problem?

314.

Mr Wright: It is extremely difficult because we, as provider, are limited to the number of people we have working on the programme, and we can to a certain degree determine that there are problems with some people. We try to work with that but it is extremely difficult. To actually get people to address those problems, you have to move them to a stage where they are willing to take responsibility. That does not always happen and very often people will move through the programme, and we will be aware of their problems - for instance, we had a young guy who after four months wanted to know if he could get help for alcohol abuse, but it took him four months to get to the point of recognising that he had a problem. It is difficult. There are so many different types of problems.

315.

We are a charity, and these are the types of clients we deal with. We do have some support in the charity itself, but there are some areas where it is difficult to come up with anything except moving someone to a placement, trying to manage the placement with them and managing them through the placement to see if they can address their problems. If somebody is on for 13 weeks, you are barely starting to form a relationship before they have to go.

316.

Ms McWilliams: Would it be right to say that 13 weeks as a design for a placement is insufficient time to address some of these problems you are talking about? If you were to retailor this programme, would that be one of your first criticisms and a priority in redesigning it? What I am leading up to is that this has been designed for Britain, not Northern Ireland. In addition, you point out the inadequacy of the length of the placement, and it seems to me terribly short to do any useful work. Is there anything else that you would tailor to suit Northern Ireland circumstances?

317.

Mr Wright: It is a Great Britain programme trying to be manipulated into something that will suit Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has very unique problems. We have had 30 years of strife. We have had long-term unemployment. We have dealt with people who have come through to the scheme having been unemployed for 19 years. They are coming in to do 13 weeks, and they are wondering what it is going to lead to. The answer is that it may not lead to anything. The employer is still not going to be interested in people who do 13 weeks if they have not worked for 20 years. There needs to be something either before, or after, or both to bring those people in and move them from where they are now to where they need to be, but it has to be done in stages. They come in and it is as if they accept their lot. They are not willing to look beyond what they are doing. I have asked people what they would like to be doing in two years, and it has stunned them to even think two years ahead. Some people will say that they will probably still be unemployed. That is their attitude - they do not see that there is a way out. There might be something they can do, but they do not just take that on board.

318.

A lot of work needs to be done with people to try to get them to see the possibilities. Sometimes they may begin to see that after 13 or 26 weeks. However, more often than not the programme is over and they go back on to Jobseeker's Allowance.

319.

Mr Dallat: What could be done with New Deal that would enable you to give young people a better vision of the future, while addressing some of the social issues which your charity is well renowned for addressing. You spoke with some affection about ACE, and I want to know in what respect New Deal fails where ACE could have delivered. How could that be compensated for?

320.

Mr Wright: I speak affectionately about ACE because I came through the ACE scheme in Bryson House. There is a danger in getting too affectionate about it because the people who are on New Deal are quite different from those who were on ACE.

321.

The people who were on the ACE scheme applied for those jobs, and even though they were ACE jobs, people could still apply for them. A lot of people we would deal with in the age group from 18 to 24 have come through an education system in which they have not achieved anything. They left school at age 16 and they entered a YTP scheme. I have yet to meet anybody who went into a YTP scheme and came out with something at the other end. The programme did not do anything for them.

322.

Those people would have been processed through the Jobskills programme. That is a process which meets the requirements of the training organisation, because they have so many places in stores and warehousing, painting and decorating, but there has not really been any work done on determining what the young person wants.

323.

There is a certain amount of effort needed in trying to encourage young people to make decisions, and you need to work on that. It is termed "soft skills" and it is about young people developing personal ideas about what they want to do. Very often they are in the situation where they are waiting for something else to happen. They are waiting to be told the next programme they will be going on. It is that type of attitude that we are trying to break. It is a bit like taking control of your life and making decisions for yourself.

324.

We look at different areas. We work with families likely to have children who will be going through this process and we are developing a more holistic approach so that we can work with them to identify problems at a younger age and see if we can help in different ways. We are only one organisation. Our impact, although great on the individual, is not going to be great in terms of numbers.

325.

Mrs Nelis: If I am correct, the budget for New Deal is approximately £60 million this year. It is an enormous sum. What you are saying, Mr Wright, has been said from the outset. Many of those from the voluntary sectors have expressed concern that New Deal was a UK scheme and did not give any special consideration to the differences in Ireland. The changeover has had a tremendous impact on the community and voluntary sectors, particularly in terms of actually putting in the hard work that was done when ACE went out of business. We have the benefit trap as far as lone parents are concerned and issues around timescales and qualifications. All those things are genuinely concerning. They discriminate against the long-term unemployed on the equality of opportunity basis set out in section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. There is also pressure on the 18-24 age group in terms of them being coerced into schemes through loss of benefits. Do you think that this enormous amount of public money is actually meeting Government policy, and is it, more importantly, delivering the goods in terms of the unemployed? Should there be a rethink as far as New Deal is concerned, given the particular situation here, and could that money not be better spent?

326.

Mr Wright: In my opinion a rethink is needed. It is now becoming clear that certain things are not happening under New Deal. If 18-to-24-year-olds are returning to New Deal after six months, 20% are being retained in employment, and the number of NVQs is extremely low. Most of the people who come through this programme have to do NVQs and really do not understand the point of doing three units of an NVQ. They are also aware that employers do not understand the point of having three units of an NVQ either.

327.

Another thing I would like to say about NVQs is that because of the demands of the NVQ awarding bodies and the NVQs that are available, it is very difficult for people to gather sufficient experience in placements in the voluntary sector because of the type of work that they are doing. Many people see that they could be doing more relevant things. There needs to be a rethink; those issues need to be addressed. In Great Britain, people do not come along and say "No. I am not going there. I am not going to that part of Belfast". Here they do. It does need a serious rethink. We are told that it is going to be re-evaluated at the end of the current contract, but people are saying that it needs to be done now. What will happen to the people that are there now?

328.

Mr Beggs: In your recommendations you talked about reviewing the consortia approach and restructuring it if necessary. Would you talk about some of the alternative options? I would appreciate your thinking there. Secondly, in terms of qualification structure, you mentioned a couple of times that some of the qualifications for which people are being forced to study are not appropriate. What would be the best alternative to those?

329.

Mr Wright: Let us look at the consortia first. The idea of the consortia was around before New Deal came along, and it was all about getting organisations to work together. Having been involved mainly with the two consortia that we were in, we have found that it is very much a case of each to his own in terms of "You are in there; you do your own marketing, you get your own people in". In terms of having to meet the Quality Performance Management Framework standards, we worked on our own on that, although we did get support from one of the consortia lead partners, but not the other. We pay the money, and they get a percentage of the money that comes in to the programme. The lead partners are, more than usually, training organisations which have more experience in terms of T&EA-funded programmes, but they also have multiple contracts with the T&EA, so if we go to them and say "We are not happy with this, or with that" we are not entirely certain whether they are going to bring that to the attention of the T&EA. They are obviously looking after their own interests as much as they are looking after the other consortium members.

330.

I mentioned in the paper that I have been to Glasgow where there is a voluntary sector consortium. It handles all the voluntary sector organisations so the New Deal adjustments are passed through the employment office to the consortium, and then they are - distributed, I suppose is the best word - amongst different voluntary sector organisations. So there is more of an opportunity for the voluntary sector to have a vote. There is, at present, a bit of a divide and conquer aspect. Everyone is all over the place and looking out for themselves. They have got themselves involved in a programme that needs numbers, and they need to ensure that the numbers are there and that the money is coming in.

331.

In relation to qualifications, they are demanding more work-based evidence. In the NVQ in using IT, for instance, standards have recently been changed.

332.

We often have people who are referred through to do IT as part of their training, but they are not working in a solely IT-based environment. They often will not have any previous experience in IT. They would be better off doing something like a CLAIT certificate followed by a Stage II certificate. Both of these are achievable within a similar period of time as the programme. Both are also recognised as full certificates by employers, and do not come across as part of an NVQ.

333.

We have a large number of people interested in obtaining things such as forklift or truck licences. We have paid for two people to go through HGV because it could not be funded as it was not an NVQ. One of those was in the 18-24 group and the other was over-25. We paid for the 18-24 out of our funding. We do not get training money for the over-25s.

334.

There are other qualifications that people can get, such as driving lessons. People can identify that if they could drive, they could get a certain job. We offer that to some people if we think it is achievable within the period of time they are on the programme with us.

335.

Training in personal development should be seen as something that is just as important as going through a unit of NVQ, if not more. You have people coming in who have literacy problems. They have gone through a system where they did not feel they achieved anything when they were at school, or when they were on YTP or Jobskills, and they are now saying "What am I likely to achieve by doing this?" More thought and creativity is needed when looking at that.

336.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much Mr Wright, that has been very interesting.

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Ms D McAleese ) Enterprise Ulster
Mr C Martin )

337.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon. Enterprise Ulste^r is a body which has been working with the long-term unemployed for some time and is involved with many New Deal consortia.

338.

Ms McAleese: At Enterprise Ulster (Coleraine) we are involved as lead partner with Coleraine and Ballymoney, a recently merged consortia, and as an option provider within the Limavady consortium.

339.

The Chairperson: Would you like to give us some details of your background and then take some questions?

340.

Ms McAleese: I work for Enterprise Ulster, which has been around since 1973 working with the long-term unemployed. I have been involved with New Deal since its inception in April 1998. Today I would like to talk you through my role as both lead partner and option provider and to give you an account of my experiences on the programme from both those roles. As lead partner of Coleraine and Ballymoney I see my main functions as managing the consortium; acting as a reporting agent between the consortium, T&EA and other relevant bodies; managing the financial side of claims to the T&EA; and paying out claims to partners and sub-contractors and the infamous quality system which is now being implemented. Being an option provider I also manage and deal with participants on the programme on a daily basis. This allows me to see issues that need to be addressed with New Deal.

341.

As you probably are aware, when New Deal started in April 1998 it was slow to get off the ground. Our intake began about September 1998. We slowly increased numbers on the consortium, peaking around September 1999 with, as you can see from my paper, an average occupancy in that consortium of 43 on the 18-to-24-year-old programme and 86 on the 25-plus programme. Numbers remained relatively stable until about April of this year, and since then have been in rapid decline to an average occupancy rate of approximately 29 on the 18-to-24-year-old programme and 22 on the 25-plus programme.

342.

This, in itself, can lead to difficulties for organisations in the management of the New Deal. They are expected to deliver the same level of service regardless of numbers on the programme. I am sure that members are aware that the numbers on the programme have financial implications in terms of what an organisation hopes to gain from managing the programme. Enterprise Ulster, as a partner and option provider, has, in my view, been very flexible with the programme. We have always been there, managing the numbers when they were high and also when they have been low. Prior to New Deal, I worked in a team of five people operating from one office. That is now extended to two sites, with a staff of 11. Community-based programmes have doubled.

343.

The corporate organisation has increased its transport fleet to accommodate the numbers on the programme and to make options available to participants. A previous contributor referred to the 13-week programme and its limitations. Thirteen weeks is certainly a very short time for people to achieve much from a programme. Enterprise Ulster has sought to provide a progression route for those participants, and it can now merge and pass participants on to the mainstream programme, where they can have a year working towards a qualification, with the ultimate goal of moving into employment. They are not necessarily going to be left high and dry. We offer that programme, although we cannot force people to move onto it. It is an option - it is there for Enterprise Ulster's New Deal participants.

344.

Because of the peaks and troughs in numbers, I have found that option providers in my consortium have opted to become subcontractors of the programme. They find it difficult to manage the uncertain numbers on the programme. In such cases, Enterprise Ulster bears the responsibility for the participants and the costs involved. Probably another reason for becoming a subcontractor is the quality system known as the Quality Performance Management Framework (QPMF) that has been imposed upon the programme. It is an extensive system that can be difficult and quite expensive for some organisations to comply with.

345.

Regarding QPMF, the previous contributor referred to lead partners and the assistance that he was given. In our role as lead partner, I think that any option provider in the consortium would say that we were the driving force behind working towards the award. We have given every help and assistance that we could. We devised our development plans in co-operation with them and worked closely with them to ensure that they were working towards, and meeting, the standards. We are all about to be assessed for the award.

346.

The problem that I, as a lead partner, see with the programme, is that when a participant is referred to a programme, to undertake any option, the information at that point of entry is limited to what the personal adviser provides. The lead partner is expected to carry out a referral interview, which lasts approximately half an hour, and then place the person onto an option within a maximum of two weeks. We often find that participants are not even aware of New Deal or of what they are doing on the programme. We have had to spend time recapping issues that should have been covered in Gateway - although not to the same extent now, with the introduction of Core Gateway.

347.

Still I would say that 30% of our participants coming at the referral stage were not aware of New Deal, and you are still spending that referral interview stage briefing them on the programme. Enterprise Ulster has devised its own New Deal leaflet, and we go through it at the referral stage in detail with clients so that they are aware of what is happening to them before we begin to implement the goals on their action plan.

348.

The Chairperson: You are saying that some people, having already gone through the Gateway period, do not understand the programme.

349.

Ms McAleese: Yes. That is true for about 30% of my cases anyway. I am speaking from my own experience. That is the Core Gateway programme that I am talking about. In Coleraine there are three Core Gateway providers, of which we are one. There are others providing that service, and I am not sure whether everybody goes through the Core Gateway process. That action point was iterated to us in a report from the Education and Training Inspectorate in a recent audit that they carried out. As a Core Gateway provider I see what information is attained from that process, and I see that that would be valuable to a lead partner in placing somebody on to an option.

350.

Therefore I would expect that to be on an action plan, and it is very limited what you receive on an action plan in terms of that. Because it is not on the action plan you are expected to reassess that candidate who may have been assessed a few weeks before. That can be a problem for the person in that you have to recap on ground that has already been covered.

351.

As an option provider there is one main concern I have with regard to the NVQ programme. I fully recognise and respect the route that New Deal takes, and in most cases people are able to work towards the specified three units of a full NVQ Level 2. In the last six months, especially with the 25-plus programme, we have witnessed a large number of referrals coming through with basic skills needs, and they are very keen for these to be addressed. The funding does not provide for training within the 25-plus programme. You are expected to provide whatever training is needed from your running costs. There is funding for training in the 18-to-24-year-old programme, but recently I have experienced a degree of inflexibility in terms of the qualifications that a particular person must run with on the programme. There needs to be a greater awareness in the T&EA that not everybody can walk in off the street and undertake three units of an NVQ, even at Level 1. That would probably be the strongest point that I want to make.

352.

Mr Dallat: I am glad to see someone from Kilrea. With Monica in and out, we are well represented. I want to go back to the fluctuating numbers. Are you making a case for some better financial arrangement which would give you a more manageable budget?

353.

Ms McAleese: We are in the process of doing that. I am involved in the lead partner forum, and there are representatives from that forum liaising with the T&EA. The numbers reflect your financial situation, and I am not saying that we should go back to a situation whereby the T&EA should pay us for having numbers on the programme. However, the numbers on the programme do reflect your ability to deliver the programme. The goalposts of the lead partner and the option provider have continuously moved since the inception of New Deal. For instance, the QPMF is an enormous task and the lead partner is expected to have themselves and the partners ready. If you are in a large consortium that can be difficult and expensive. We were given a day's training in terms of being an internal quality assessor and were then expected to go out and make sure that all partners met that award.

354.

There are other reasons for looking at an increased financial package, my own being that Enterprise Ulster is now moving the initiative forward. We shall be an accredited centre for delivering basic and key skills training, something we are doing independently. I feel that the financial package should be there to help people. After all, the programme is there to meet the individual's needs, and there should be some way of allowing consortia to deliver. Currently, there is no package to do so, no matter if one is working in a small or large consortium. In larger consortia it is certainly easier because of the financial gain derived from the programme. Smaller consortia are still facing difficulties from clients coming on to the programme in need of special assistance without having the money for them.

355.

Mr Dallat: I feel the Committee should take your case seriously, for you represent an area with high rates of social deprivation. I can relate to some of the people you have in mind, those who simply do not fit into a pigeon hole.

356.

Ms McAleese: Exactly.

357.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you for a very informative presentation, Ms McAleese. The major problem you raised was the difficulty experienced by people entering the New Deal and attempting to access an NVQ, something which will impact on whether they find employment. The latest report by the Industrial Society ascertained last week that 40% of New Deal recruits cannot read basic instructions.

358.

Since New Deal came into being, and even during its predecessor, the ACE scheme, people were flagging up the issue of the lack of basic literacy and numeracy skills. I hoped that New Deal would grasp the nettle and address this, but listening to you today, it seems that has not happened. This is a very serious matter, and the Committee should pay particular attention to it in the light of the fact that the first, Gateway phase is seriously underfunded when it comes to dealing with it. It is left to the providers to come up with their own funding to try to give people the basic skills.

359.

Ms McAleese: As you see from my paper, I am the first to commend the Core Gateway programme. As a lead partner and Core Gateway provider, I have seen a tremendous change in the referrals. Even the reluctance to join the programme is not as bad as at the beginning, as people are well informed.

360.

However, part of that Core Gateway is to carry out a diagnostic test on participants to determine their level so that the information can be used by the personal adviser. I have personally assessed candidates, and some of them have come up at below entry level, which means that they are not ready to move into an NVQ Level 1 and that they need some assistance in the form of basic skills training to move them up to entry level, where they could begin to think about Level 1 units.

361.

In the four-page progress report which goes back to the personal advisers, we detail this information, yet receive referrals for people to work towards NVQ Levels 2 and 3 regardless of that finding. I am concerned that the information is not being used. There is a 20-week pre-vocational option in the New Deal, but in my two and a half years working on the scheme, I have never had anyone referred to me to undertake it. We have asked for people to do so, but it has never come about. I also feel that the mainstream Gateway programme could be further utilised. If someone is diagnosed at Core Gateway stage as having a need, there are inbuilt features in the Gateway programme to address it before they move on to an option.

362.

Mrs Nelis: They are not being adopted.

363.

Ms McAleese: They are not being offered, especially since the introduction of Core Gateway. People are quickly moved into an option, which is sometimes simply not the best route for them.

364.

Mr Carrick: I should like to ask a question on value for money. In the administration and structure of New Deal, when one hears about consortia, lead partners, members, associate members, providers, personal advisers, participants, one begins to wonder whether we are delivering an efficient service? From your experience in Coleraine and the north-west, could you let us have your thoughts on whether that machinery could be streamlined and yet provide an even better service.

365.

Ms McAleese: I certainly think so. I am not running down New Deal but I do believe that a similar programme needed to be introduced at the time, as we were dealing with a society where reliance on benefits was accepted as a right. This was an issue which needed to be looked at and New Deal came in quite quickly to the Province and, no doubt, was a shock to people. It involved a lot of work for training organisations to get it up and running in the time available. I recognise that a similar programme is certainly needed.

366.

From my own experience, we run a mainstream programme which is voluntary. As Trevor Wright said, when he referred to the ACE people who had applied for those jobs, the difference was unbelievable. The workload was much reduced. The clients were there because they wanted to be there. If we can develop something which is more flexible to their needs you will find clients less difficult to deal with. I have already found this to be true with the introduction of Core Gateway. People are better informed as to what they have to go through. Ignorance can frighten people, and because of this they tend to put barriers up with regard to joining the programme and this causes problems for providers.

367.

The programme should provide more information and be more flexible. In the 18 - 24 year old programme, it takes six months to work through three units of an NVQ. An employer would ask, "what use are these three units?". The response is that if they come back on to the programme for another six months they can complete another three units. It is a long time before someone gets a half of an NVQ. We need to extend the time that they have on the programme, even up to a year, and have the programme based in such a way that the NVQ route is not the only route. It does say in the guidelines that the NVQ route is not the only route, but when you challenge that or try to get someone to work towards a different type of qualification it is usually rejected.

368.

Mr Carrick: What is your view of the bureaucratic structure, from the T&EA right down to the participant? Is this all necessary?

369.

Ms McAleese: I can see the need for it when there are large numbers on the programme. The T&EA has personal advisers who are there to deal with clients and to pass them on to the lead partners who then, in turn, will pass them on to the option provider. There are quite a lot of lead partners and personal advisers in the T&EA. I am not sure if they are all needed or not. At one time, in my area, there were about 10 personal advisers between Coleraine and Ballymoney with three training staff in Enterprise Ulster, as lead partner. With this number we can manage to spend more in-depth time with the person and be with them day in and day out for the duration of the programme.

370.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Danielle and Carl, for coming this afternoon. It was very interesting, and I am sure it will have an effect on our considerations in this matter.

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