COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS:
THURSDAY, 17 JANUARY 2002
ROOM 152, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman)
Mr Mervyn Carrick MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Roy Beggs MLA
Mr John Dallat MLA
Mr Roger Hutchinson MLA
Mr John Kelly MLA
Mrs Mary Nelis MLA
Prof Monica McWilliams MLA
In Attendance:
Dr Andrew C Peoples
Ms Hilary Bogle
Mr Paul Stitt
Mr Michael Meehan
Mr John McVey (Northern Ireland Assembly Research)
Apologies:
Mrs Joan Carson MLA
Meeting opened at 2.10pm in open session.
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Apologies
Apologies are detailed above
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Draft Minutes of 10 January 2002
Agreed. Proposed: Mr Dallat. Seconded: Mrs Nelis.
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Matters Arising
The Chairman and Deputy Chairman informed the Committee that they had met informally
with the new Minister, Ms Carmel Hanna MLA, on Monday 14 January 2002. The issue
of the Department’s delay in responding to correspondence from the Committee was
discussed and the Minister reported that responses were imminent, but was not
in a position to give an exact timeframe.
The Chairman and Deputy Chairman advised the Committee of their intention to
meet the Minister on a bi-monthly basis. Debate ensued, both Mr Kelly and Mrs
Nelis stated that they fundamentally disagreed with the principle of regular and
informal meetings with the Minister, outside normal Committee meetings. Mr Kelly
stated that this could detract from the Committee’s formal scrutiny role. After
further debate, there was a general consensus amongst the members present that
such meetings should take place, to promote good lines of communication between
the Committee and the Minister. Mr Kelly stated that, if such meetings are to
take place, they should be minuted, and the minutes circulated to all Committee
members. He also suggested that the Clerk of the Committee attend these meetings,
if the Minister was to be accompanied by departmental officials.
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Committee Response – December 2001 Monitoring Round
Members noted the response (Annex 1) and agreed to seek further clarification
on the following two points: -
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Why the £5.8m surrendered under Student Loan Debt Sale Subsidy in September
2001 has been included, yet the £10.6m for Student Loans Capital surrendered in
this round has not.
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Mrs Nelis requested clarification on the crossover of responsibilities with
the Department for Social Development regarding the New Deal for Lone Parents
scheme.
Action: Clerk
2:25pm Mr Hutchinson joined the meeting
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Correspondence
Members noted the letters from both the Chairman of the Committee for Education
and the Minister for Employment and Learning regarding receipt of Professor Todd’s
written brief on Literacy.
Members considered the letter of acknowledgement from the Department of Trade
and Industry of the Committee’s response to the consultation document ‘Routes
to Resolution: Improving Dispute Resolution in Britain’.
Members noted the letter from the Minister for Employment and Learning concerning
the consultation on proposals for flexible working patterns for parents. The Committee
agreed to respond and members agreed with the points set out in the consultation
document (Annex 2).
Action: Clerk
Members noted the letter from the Minister for Employment and Learning clarifying
the background to the recent successful bid for Executive Programme Funds for
the Rapid Advancement Programme (RAP).
Members discussed the Minister’s reply to the Committee’s query on the impact
of numbers achieving National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs), given the requirement
for young people to also attain key skills. The Committee agreed to take further
evidence on this matter, time permitting.
Action: Clerk
Members considered the Assembly Research Paper assessing the implications
for DEL of the Burns’ Report. Given that the findings of this Report impacted
on a number of areas within the remit of the Committee, e.g. FE Colleges, Careers
Education and Business Links, it was agreed to notify the Committee for Education
that the Committee for Employment and Learning intended to make a submission on
this Report.
Action: Clerk
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Taskforce on Employability and Long-Term Unemployment
Members were briefed by Northern Ireland Assembly Research on the work of
the Taskforce on Employability and Long-Term Unemployment in the context of employment
trends within the European Union (EU). Some of the issues discussed were:
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Economic development and active labour market policies can help to prevent
the drift from unemployment into long-term unemployment
2:42pm Mr Hutchinson left the meeting
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Given the EU target of 50% employment for older workers (55-64 age group) by
2010, it should be a concern of the Taskforce on how to overcome the age barrier.
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In Europe, previously unemployed individuals took over 60% of the jobs created
in 2000. The Taskforce needs to be assessing current policies in relation to job
creation and the profile of successful employees, to enable Northern Ireland to
replicate this success.
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Skills and qualifications need to be transferable or treated as equivalent
to assist workers to find employment across the EU.
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The monitoring of innovative policy developments to ensure that best practice
is widely disseminated.
3:00pm Prof McWilliams joined the meeting
Following the Research briefing, members met with the Minister for Employment
and Learning, Ms Carmel Hanna MLA, and the following members of the Taskforce,
Mr M Caher (DEL and Secretary to the Taskforce), Mr E Jardine, (NISRA) and Mr
A Shannon, (DEL). Following a short presentation on the main themes emerging from
the Taskforce on Employability and Long-term Unemployment, the following issues
were debated:
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The ‘Benefit Trap’.
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How the Department was addressing the serious problem it faced in regard to
high levels of vacant posts and absenteeism of those staff involved with New Deal.
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The role of the Taskforce in the review of the school curriculum to ensure
that the problems of numeracy and literacy are dealt with at primary/secondary
education level and not passed on to Further Education Colleges etc., to deal
with.
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The issue of segregation where people feel unable to access further education
or employment opportunities in their local neighbourhood.
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The benchmarking of findings from the Taskforce against the figures for employability
in both Europe and the USA.
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Recent employment growth in various parts of Northern Ireland.
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The measures to be taken to ensure that findings from the Taskforce Report
will be acted upon and achievable targets set.
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How the Taskforce proposes to gather analysis on levels of employability and
long term unemployment where gaps exist in the data collated from normal statutory
sources, for example, in regard to women out of work who do not register as such.
Following the briefing members debated on whether to make a response to the
Taskforce prior to the publication of their Draft Action Plan.
3:57pm Mr Kelly left the meeting
The Committee directed the Clerk to ask for clarification from the Department
on the timescales involved, to allow the Committee to agree the way forward at
their next meeting.
Action: Clerk
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Legislation
Members considered Statutory Rule 423/2001, which has been laid in
the Business Office, together with the Report from the Examiner of Statutory Rules.
It was agreed that:
The Committee for Employment and Learning has considered SR 423/2001: New
Deal (Lone Parents) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Order (Northern Ireland) 2001 and
has no objections to the Rule.
The Clerk was directed to inform the Business Office and notify the Department.
4:05pm Mr Dallat left the meeting
Action: Clerk
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Any Other Business
Members noted the written briefing from the Association of Northern Ireland
Colleges, which had been issued following the lunch reception hosted by the organisation
in Parliament Buildings prior to the Committee meeting.
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Date and Time of Next Meeting
On Thursday 24 January 2002 at 2:00pm in Room 152 Parliament Buildings.
The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4:06pm.
Dr Esmond Birnie, MLA
Chairman, Committee for Employment and Learning
31 January 2002
ANNEX 1
Northern Ireland Assembly
Committee for Employment and Learning
Response on the Department for Employment and Learning’s bids
for the December 2001 Monitoring Round
1.0 Lisburn College of Further Education
The Committee is aware of the serious financial situation in Lisburn College
of Further Education and agrees that every effort should be made to ensure that
delivery to students is not affected by management difficulties. As discussed
with officials, members were concerned at the equity issues both within Lisburn
College and elsewhere. Students attending the College in the future may well be
affected as the College attempts to repay the advance. There is also a wider equity
issue in the opportunity cost to other colleges which have effectively managed
their finances and the Committee would again raise the issue of areas within Northern
Ireland, such as East Antrim, which do not have an effective further education
provision, whilst additional amounts of public money are allocated to other areas.
Members were made aware of Lisburn College’s efforts to appoint an appropriately
qualified accountant. Nevertheless, it is considered unacceptable that the current
monitoring system within the Department failed to detect this at an earlier stage
and that the situation in Lisburn has been allowed to develop since the College’s
accounts were last audited. Officials explained that the establishment of a professional
accounting resource within each College is ongoing and should include adequate
and effective contingency arrangements. The centralisation of such a resource
for the further education sector as a whole, as recommended in the Committee’s
recent Inquiry Report, should also be immediately considered.
Concerns regarding the management information system for the colleges arose
during the recent Inquiry and are still ongoing. The Committee was informed by
senior officials at an evidence session on 21 June 2001 that ‘we have established
the requirements of... a management information system for the further education
sector and a business case is about to go to the Department for Finance and Personnel.’
The Committee therefore request an update on progress in this area.
The Committee requested details of recovery action plans in place for further
education colleges on 5 December 2001 and has yet to receive a reply. Members
would be grateful if this information could be forwarded as a matter of priority.
2.0 New Deal
The Committee has most concerns at the amount surrendered from the New Deal
budget of £43m. Almost £17m has been surrendered in the year to date, with the
Department seeking end of year flexibility to carry over a further unspent £4m
to the next financial year. Almost half of the annual budget in this area will
be unspent, with another monitoring round still to come. This flies in the face
of the social inclusion agenda and is in stark contrast to the targets in this
year’s Business Plan to ‘enhance the New Deal programme and increase its effectiveness.’
Whilst the Committee realises that the Programme is to some extent demand led,
we wish to be kept regularly updated on the Department’s actions to address the
backlog of identified potential participants waiting to be placed on the Programme
(approximately 7,000 at the end of November 2001). Addressing this backlog will
obviously create pressures in DEL’s budget for 2002/03, which the Department will
need to deal with. The Committee would also urge rapid progress on filling the
staff vacancies in the JobCentres and are aware that some 20% of posts dealing
with the New Deal Programme are vacant. Again, we wish to be kept fully briefed
on this matter.
Whilst the information received by the Committee on absenteeism rates amongst
JobCentre staff is somewhat difficult to interpret, the Committee understands
that this is in the region of 8.9% of man-days across the grades. The Committee
raised concerns at the Department’s absentee rate at the end of the last Assembly
session and request an update on any action taken to address this, together with
information on the current rate.
Within the New Deal programme, members were disappointed that £1.9m from
a £2m budget had been returned in relation to the childcare subsidy as part of
the New Deal for Lone Parents scheme. At the briefing session, officials explained
DEL’s role as a managing agent for the Department for Social Development in relation
to the scheme. However, the fact that £100,000 seems to have been spent for an
uptake of only one claim throughout Northern Ireland, suggests that this needs
to be urgently addressed by both Departments on a cross-cutting basis.
3.0 Private Finance Initiatives (PFI)
Regarding the bid for £632,000 for consultancy costs, officials have agreed
to forward details of all consultancy payments made by DEL in the current year
to date. The areas of work that the consultants have been engaged in should be
clearly identified. In addition, an update on progress on the Springvale campus
towards the target date of September 2004 would be appreciated.
4.0 Individual Learning Accounts
The Committee recognises the achievements of the Individual Learning Account
scheme in encouraging lifelong learning, and supports the additional bid of £1.5m.
However the Committee seeks assurance from the Department that the perceived difficulties
regarding the scheme have been addressed, and early information if the scheme
is to be relaunched.
5.0 Management Development
6.0 Jobskills
Regarding the surrender of almost £11.5m from the Jobskills budget, the Committee
seeks a more detailed explanation. Whilst it is appreciated that performance payments
to providers have slowed up, as an NVQ takes longer to complete, members are concerned
that the stipulated Key Skills requirements are affecting achievement. Members
are aware that training providers have highlighted this to the Department in the
past and wish to re-emphasise the financial implications for these providers.
If action had been taken sooner, could some of the easement not have been retained
within the Jobskills programme, for the benefit of all?
7.0 Departmental Running Costs (DRC)
The Committee would also like further detail on why an unsuccessful bid of
£0.3m for Departmental Running Costs was made in June 2001, only for the Department
to surrender £750,000 in this area by December 2001.
8.0 Conclusion
Overall, the Committee is disappointed that the majority of the bids are
to fund remedial action and there is little of a developmental nature within them.
The amount of money surrendered casts doubt on the effectiveness of the Department’s
forecasting models. Finally, members would appreciate earlier information regarding
the Department’s bids for monitoring rounds and would request information on the
February 2002 monitoring round as soon as possible.
Mr Mervyn Carrick, MLA
Deputy Chairman
14 January 2002
ANNEX 2
Northern Ireland
Assembly
Committee for Employment and Learning
Ms Carmel Hanna MLA
Minister for Employment and Learning
Adelaide House
39/49 Adelaide Street
Belfast
BT2 8FD 21 January 2002
Re: Work and Parents Taskforce – Proposals entitled ‘About Time: Flexible
Working’ issued by the Department of Trade and Industry in Great Britain
The Committee for Employment and Learning debated this document at their
meeting on Thursday 17 January 2002.
The Committee is broadly in agreement with these Proposals and will keep
further developments under review.
Yours sincerely
Dr Esmond Birnie, MLA
Chairman
