Report on the Review of Post-Primary Education in Northern Ireland
SESSION 2001/2002 FIRST REPORT
Ordered by The Committee for Education to be printed 9 October 2001
Report: 01/01 R (to the Northern Ireland Assembly from the Committee for Education)
COMMITTEE FOR EDUCATION
Volume 2 - Minutes of Evidence relating to the report list of Witnesses who gave Oral Evidence
Organisation |
Name of Witness |
Date |
The Queens University, Belfast and the |
Professor Gallagher |
28 September 2000 |
Review Body on Post-Primary Education |
Mr Burns |
26 October 2000 |
Assembly Research and Library Services |
Ms Montgomery |
16 November 2000 |
Assembly Research and Library Services |
Ms Montgomery |
30 November 2000 |
Education & Library Boards |
Mr Martin |
22 February 2001 |
Assembly Research and Library Services and Research & Evaluation Services |
Ms Montgomery |
1 March 2001 |
National Association of School Masters |
Mr McKee |
1 March 2001
|
Youth Council for Northern Ireland |
Mr Guilfoyle |
15 March 2001 |
Catholic Heads Association |
Mr Tierney |
15 March 2001 |
Secondary Heads Association |
Mr Stuart |
15 March 2001 |
National Association of Head Teachers (NI) |
Mr Irwin |
15 March 2001 |
Irish National Teachers' Organisation |
Mr Bunting |
15 March 2001 |
Council for Catholic Maintained Schools |
Mr Flanagan |
22 March 2001 |
Governing Bodies Association |
Mr Algeo |
22 March 2001 |
Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta |
Mr MacMuiris |
22 March 2001 |
Ulster Teachers' Union |
Mr Calvin |
22 March 2001 |
Transferor Representatives' Council |
Cannon McKelvey |
29 March 2001 |
Association of Headteachers in Secondary Schools |
Mr McCrea |
29 March 2001 |
Institute of Directors |
Mr Bell |
26 April 2001 |
University of Strathclyde |
Professor Humes |
10 May 2001 |
University of Edinburgh |
Professor Munn |
10 May 2001 |
Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations & Assessment |
Mr Lennon |
17 May 2001 |
Confederation of British Industry |
Mr Smyth |
17 May 2001 |
Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education |
Mr Wardlow |
22 May 2001 |
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 28 September 2000
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gallagher
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses: Prof T Gallagher) Queen's University Belfast
Prof A Smith)University of Ulster
The Chairperson: I welcome Prof Tony Gallagher and Prof Alan Smith to this public session of the Education Committee and, on behalf of the Committee, I express our appreciation of the work you have undertaken in this important subject. We look forward to your presentation on the main points and a very productive meeting. After that I will open the meeting for questions and hope you will be able to respond accordingly. This is the beginning of a major debate in education, and the Education Committee is keen to play an important part. It may be that there will be other opportunities to sound each other out on many of these important issues. I also welcome the officials and all those in the public galleries. I hope you will be interested in and informed by this presentation, as we seek to make progress on behalf of all the children of Northern Ireland.
2.
Prof Gallagher: I thank the Committee for the invitation to meet with you to talk about the work. We will keep our presentation fairly short, dividing it into three sections. I will begin by saying a little bit about some of the main patterns that have emerged in the quantitative data from the evidence we collected. Then Prof Smith will talk about the themes that emerged from the qualitative data we gathered during our work. At the end I will talk about the conclusions we derived in relation to the different models for the future.
3.
In relation to the quantitative evidence and the patterns that emerged, there are four different areas. They are primary schools; the transition between primary to post-primary education; movement between schools after the initial stage at age 11 and a few points on the data collected in relation to performance at 16 of pupils in grammar and secondary schools. That is the format we will follow.
4.
Regarding primary schools, there has been evidence from previous research into the selective system in Northern Ireland that indicated a difference in social profile of pupils in grammar and secondary schools. Since that evidence was collected the mechanism of transfer has changed from verbal reasoning type tests to attainment tests. Also the degree of flexibility in the system has changed. One of the issues we were interested in looking at was the extent to which the patterns of participation might have changed because of these other changes.
5.
We found that the difference between the profiles of pupils in grammar and in secondary schools was almost identical to that which had been found in the past. The main reason for that appears to be the relationship between performance in the attainment tests that are used - the transfer tests - and social background. Pupils in schools with low levels of social disadvantage are much more likely to get high grades in the transfer tests, and hence get into grammar schools. There had been some discussion about that area of evidence, given the changes that had taken place, but we found similar patterns to those in the past.
6.
We were asked to look at the issue of coaching and preparation for the tests, particularly coaching outside school. That was a key part of the work, and it involved a survey of all primary schools to try to gauge the extent to which coaching is going on. The pattern that emerged was one of quite widespread out-of-school coaching. It is difficult to get an exact handle on what is happening. Although many school principals say that they are aware of it, they are loath to put an exact figure on its extent. However, there were indications that out-of-school coaching costs parents up to £15 per hour. It is an expensive activity, and not everyone is in a position to afford that sort of amount. That is another issue which had been much talked about, but on which little evidence was available.
7.
On the transition from primary to post-primary education we wanted to try to look at some of the factors influencing the movement between these two stages in the system. Our evidence clearly showed that the most important factor in obtaining a grammar school place was having a top grade in the transfer system. Because of the system of open enrolment there has been an increase in the proportion of young people moving into grammar schools - from about 27% of the cohort prior to open enrolment to the current level of about 34%. The grammar schools have essentially filled to capacity because of open enrolment. It looks likely that in the medium term, the overall size of that cohort will decline, and we expect the proportion transferring into grammar schools to increase still further because of that demographic shift.
8.
Another factor was the opening of two new Catholic grammar schools during the 1990s, which increased the number of overall places in the grammar school sector.
9.
Another issue that was much talked about before the research was carried out was the movement of pupils after the first year of post-primary education. Some people claimed that there was quite an amount of pupil movement in and around the system. We managed to get some data from the Department of Education to enable us to look at patterns in that area. We found that the number of pupils moving between schools after that first year was quite small. The predominant pattern of movement was within the school types - from one secondary school to another secondary school, or from one grammar school to another grammar school. Presumably people moving house account for that. Any crossover between secondary and grammar schools tended to be from secondary to grammar schools, but there was much less of that than movement within the sectors.
10.
Before handing over to Alan Smith, I will mention some of the evidence that we looked at in relation to the performance of pupils at age 16. We know that the overall pattern of performance in schools in Northern Ireland has been steadily increasing over a long period. Related to that is the fact that the proportion of young people leaving school with low or no qualifications has been steadily decreasing over time. Both of these are good and important factors.
11.
There is a clear difference in the pattern of the performance of grammar and secondary schools. One would expect such a difference, given the mission and purpose of the schools. However, we tried to examine some of the statistical factors that help to explain the pattern of performance of schools, and there turned out to be a difference between the grammar and the secondary sectors. Our analysis suggested that the most important factor influencing the performance of a grammar school at age 16 was the proportion of pupils with a grade A in the transfer test who had come into the school at the start. The higher the proportion of top-grade pupils going into a grammar school, the higher the performance of the pupils in that grammar school at age 16.
12.
The situation was slightly different in secondary schools, partly because a large proportion of secondary school pupils had opted out of the test and did not have a transfer grade. Our statistical analysis suggested that the key factor was the level of social disadvantage. The higher the level of social disadvantage, as measured by free school meal entitlement, then the lower the performance profile of the school. There is a little bit more to that, which we can perhaps explore later.
13.
There is a strong grammar school effect, which surfaced when we looked at individual pupil level data. This is the value-added benefit that a pupil receives from achieving a grammar school place. Our analysis suggested that this grammar school effect is worth up to 16 GCSE points, which is a substantial value-added dimension. It seems to stem from two factors - on average, pupils in grammar schools tend to take more GCSE examinations than pupils in secondary schools, and they also tend to pass more. It is a culmination of a higher pass rate plus a higher number of subjects taken in the first place.
14.
This partly helps to explain why there are very high levels of attainment by the grammar schools in our system. Allied to that is another point highlighted in the report, and that is the long tail of low-achieving schools, which, on the face of it - particularly in comparison to other systems - appears to be an inevitable consequence of a selective system. Those are a few points that we emphasised in relation to performance at 16 years of age.
15.
Prof Smith: I will say something about the findings from the qualitative side of the work, which was based on interviews with teachers and pupils in the system. The research involved 30 study schools at post-primary level. There was also an element of work which involved approximately 50 teachers from the primary school sector.
16.
The context for this evidence and research differs from previous studies in this area due to the 1989 education reforms. There were three key policy areas which changed that context - open enrolment; the statutory common curriculum; and new forms of assessment through the key stage assessment. The qualitative evidence also draws on teacher views and these are not always represented in previous research in this area.
17.
I will highlight some of the key issues that emerged from the qualitative research in relation to primary, secondary and grammar schools. At the primary level there is a "backwash effect"; the fact that the transfer tests exist as a means of selection has a significant effect especially on the final two years of primary school education. This manifests itself in three key ways. First, the area related to the curriculum; how it is affected, and the teaching strategies which are used. The report contains substantial evidence that the majority of primary school teachers identified specific ways in which they felt that the primary school curriculum is distorted in the last two years. This includes a narrowing in the range of teaching strategies that teachers used. They reported that their teaching tends to emphasise test technique, rather than the development of a deeper understanding of educational concepts. There were reports of neglect in some areas of English, for example, creative writing, but an overemphasis on teaching points of grammar and comprehension. In mathematics a significant number of primary school teachers reported that a two-year programme of mathematics was being compressed in order to meet the transfer test deadline.
18.
The approach to teaching mathematics is often "teaching to the best". There are reports that the teaching of science shifts from practical work to being taught through lectures and notes and generally in a more didactic way. A majority of teachers report some neglect of project work in history and geography and that subjects on the statutory curriculum, notably art, music and physical education are often set aside to make way for test preparation. We felt that this represents significant evidence from teachers working in primary schools about curriculum distortion. Professor Gallagher has already mentioned coaching.
19.
Stranmillis research estimated that 98% of all primary schools in Northern Ireland reported that they were doing some form of direct preparation. That obviously has implications for the displacement of other subjects on the curriculum. The Stranmillis work also estimated that almost half, some 47%, of children were being coached outside school.
20.
Teachers were strongly against coaching for two reasons. First, teachers felt that some pupils, who may not be best suited for a grammar school education, were being coached to gain a place only to find that they did not do so well once they got it. Secondly, and more significantly, teachers felt that there was an inherent bias in coaching in that because it costs money, not all parents could afford it. Whilst coaching within school is accessible to all pupils, primary school teachers suggested that coaching outside school further disadvantages those from socially disadvantaged backgrounds.
21.
We were particularly struck by teachers' evidence on classroom management and on the organisation and grouping of pupils. This affects the one-third of the school population which has opted out of the selection procedure. Evidence came from teachers on a range of strategies that were adopted for the management of the education of pupils who had been opted out of the transfer tests in the last two years. This ranged from their being taught in segregated classes to alternative arrangements being made for opted-out children. They might be taken by another teacher or be set different work by a classroom assistant. It was felt that opted-out children often received less attention and that there were lower expectations in terms of the work set for those pupils.
22.
Teachers also reported dilemmas about how they worked with the children. There was evidence that the transfer test shapes how teachers view children in the classroom. Many teachers spoke of mentally grouping together children whom they expected to do well. These children are given appropriate work, and it is anticipated that they will fulfil expectations; they are expected to get a high transfer grade.
23.
Teachers also find themselves in a dilemma when dealing with children whom they regard as "borderline" and how much attention those children should receive. Teachers also report dilemmas about having to work with pupils whom they consider to have little prospect of success in the transfer test. Nevertheless, the parental wish was that they be entered. This presented considerable moral dilemmas for teachers. Many found it demoralising having to prepare pupils for something in which teachers felt they had little chance of success.
24.
Those were the main issues at primary level. If we consider post-primary level there was a significant difference between how secondary school and grammar school teachers perceived their role and the purpose of their work. Among secondary school teachers the prevailing perception was that new pupils came into the school with a strong sense of failure. This then seemed to set the tone for how teachers interact with them. There was an emphasis in the language that teachers used, particularly in the initial years, on recovery programmes to help pupils to rebuild self-esteem. The social and emotional development of young people was the primary concern. From interviews with secondary school teachers, strong feelings came through that there is little appreciation of the range of teaching skills needed in a secondary school environment. Teachers need skills that allow them to work across a broad range of ability and to cope with a range of social and behavioural challenges. There is considerable anger among secondary school teachers both about lack of appreciation within society, and about the low status that they feel has been attributed to secondary schools in our system. When we probed this issue further, much of this perceived low status could be traced to a lack of clarity about the core purpose of secondary schools. Teachers in secondary schools also felt that they were being asked to address a number of issues simultaneously. They were expected to promote academic achievement as well as dealing with a broad range of social and disciplinary issues.
25.
By contrast, grammar school teachers perceived the pupils coming into their school as young people who had achieved something. These pupils were seen as well motivated and could be set on a fairly academic course. A minority of teachers reported that some pupils who entered the grammar school system, having passed the transfer tests, proved difficult to motivate because they felt that they had achieved something and relaxed a little. However, the overall discourse amongst grammar school teachers was of a single-minded mission that they were there to help children achieve their academic best. Grammar school teachers talked about the pressures on them to live up to academic expectations, rather than the diversity of their mission. This was particularly related to the publication of performance tables and examination results. A significant number of grammar school teachers also expressed concern about how they would adapt if there were a structural change to the system in Northern Ireland, which might require them to teach a broader range of ability. They were also worried about adapting to a school environment that had a broader social mix. In qualitative terms this is the picture that came through when considering the different environments in primary and secondary schools.
26.
Prof Gallagher: After the project had started we were asked by the Department to add a comparative dimension by looking at the operation of other types of systems, in order to provide a broader picture of the possibilities. And what we have done on that report on the basis of that comparative information is to identify five possible models which seem to us to represent the main models possible for the future.
27.
The first three models represent the status quo, the system of grammar and secondary schools which we currently operate, and for each of these different models we have tried to identify some of the main strengths and weaknesses. One of the key strengths of the current system is the high attainment achieved by the grammar schools. This seems to sit alongside a pattern whereby there is a long tail of low-achieving schools, and both of these aspects need to be taken into account.
28.
The second model might be described as the German model. This is a system where there is differentiation at age 11 as we have here, but the schools are quite different in terms of the curriculum and qualifications they follow. There are a number of European countries that use this type of system, and the alternative to the academic grammar schools tend to be schools with a technical or vocation emphasis. Most of these systems have a number of characteristics that also differentiate them from our current system: parents often choose the type of school their children go to; and there is a reasonably high degree of flexibility in these systems and movement of pupils in both directions between school types for a whole variety of reasons. There appears to be an employment benefit gained for the young people who go through the technical or vocational schools, in that in these countries, these young people end up in skilled jobs. A much smaller proportion end up with unskilled or low skill jobs as often happens in the UK.
29.
The third model that we looked at might be described as a middle-school system, and the closest comparison people here would be aware of is the system operated in Craigavon where there are junior high schools. There are a number of places in England that use this type of system. Research that was done for the Department of Education a few years ago looked in detail at the Craigavon system, and two of the main conclusions that emerged were that the system appeared to be very popular in the area, partly because there seemed to be a very high proportion of young people who obtained a place in a grammar, or grammar senior high school and that the pupils who were not selected at age 14 were having problems in terms of the education they were getting, although the Education and Library Board has addressed that issue since.
30.
The fourth and fifth models are similar in that they involve the use of common schools, where all pupils would attend for an extended period. In places such as France or Italy pupils attend common schools up to the end of compulsory education, whether that is at age 15 or age 16. In places like Scotland and in many Scandinavian countries pupils attend the common schools right through to age 18. The main advantage of both these types of system is that they keep opportunities and options for young people open longer than any of the systems where there is a decision made at an earlier stage. The main weakness in relation to these systems is that they appear to set a cap on the level of attainment open to pupils of the highest ability, and we looked at some evidence in relation to that.
31.
At the end of the report we argue that our hope is that the discussion which will be opening up over the next number of months should focus less on structures and more on the sort of things we want our education system to do and what we want our young people to get out of it. If we have that sort of a discussion first, then we can decide the type of structure which will best provide it.
32.
The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation to the Committee. It would appear that we have a number of models: the existing model; the Craigavon model; the Italian model; the French model and, unfortunately, there is no Swedish model! [Laughter]
33.
Prof Gallagher: The closest to that would be the Scottish school system.
34.
The Chairperson: It has been a long day for you too, Prof Gallagher.
35.
The meeting will now be an open forum. Committee members will now have the opportunity to ask questions. Members may want to ask supplementary questions, but I will limit each of them to one main question and one supplementary because of time constraints. I ask for short, sharp responses to equally short, sharp questions.
36.
Mr K Robinson: Now that the fashion comments are over I am glad to open the questioning. I thank the Gentlemen for opening Pandora's educational box. We have all been surprised at what is beginning to fly out, and we need time to assess that. Does your research suggest that parents might take the transfer results record of primary schools into consideration when they are selecting one for their child? Paragraph 7.4.1 seems to suggest that intakes do not increase, whereas one would expect them to rise if a particular school appeared to be a good school in the eyes of parents.
37.
Prof Gallagher: This issue is talked about a great deal. When we were doing the work, a lot of people talked about the issue of primary schools being judged in terms of their transfer grade profile. Because it was talked about a great deal, we tried to nail down some empirical evidence to support it. The main evidence we looked at was whether the transfer results in one year influenced the intake of a primary school in the following year. We had some statistics from the Department to look at, but analysis did not suggest any particular relationship between the two. There are obviously a lot of other factors involved, and perhaps our data was too crude to explore that question. The empirical data did not support the notion, even though it is something that is still talked about. Primary school teachers are very much aware that it is an issue.
38.
Mrs E Bell: I would like to concentrate on the primary school aspect. Prof Smith covered quite a great deal of what I wanted to talk about, however I am interested in the perceptions and expectations of pupils and the motivation and performance of teachers.
39.
Your report mentions that some teachers have modest or low expectations of pupils who have not yet entered the transfer tests. At times, their priority has been keeping such pupils busy, rather than actually educating them. There has been some suggestion that teachers devoted less consistent attention to the educational needs of such pupils. By contrast, teachers have high expectations of pupils they expect to do well.
40.
Section 3.3 of the report says that there is evidence that a number of primary school teachers are highly motivated and accept the job as a challenge. In a typical class comprising pupils with high expectations, borderline pupils, those who have opted out, and those with low expectations, were you able to quantify the number of teachers who were challenged by the constructive aspect of the job, and what happened to the children they did not have high expectations for?
41.
Prof Smith: This was not a quantitative piece of work. A minority of teachers said that their motivation lay in preparing children for the transfer test. Nevertheless, a number of respondents suggested that some teachers specialise in this aspect of primary school education and that partly involves taking children opting into the transfer test system right through the process.
42.
There was a great deal of anecdotal evidence about the nature of that specialisation and any status that might be attached to it, et cetera. In response to your question, it was a small minority who indicated that the very challenge of preparing children was their main motivation in teaching. However, we did not have sufficient data to quantify exactly how many teachers are motivated in this way.
43.
Mrs E Bell: Do we need a consultative process to look at this further? There is a high proportion of other pupils.
44.
Prof Smith: Yes. Within the confidentiality of the research, I have been struck by the eagerness of teachers to speak about these issues. These are issues that a school would not be very keen to have discussed in the open.
45.
Mr Gallagher: There are three parts to my question. First, it is acknowledged the very weighty and detailed work that you and your team have carried out is very helpful to us. In putting this analysis to us today you are doing a great service to the entire community in Northern Ireland.
46.
You mentioned underachievement and low attainment several times, and in one paragraph you referred to secondary schools and the difference between controlled secondary schools, which are the state schools that appear to have a lower attainment than maintained or integrated schools. What are the reasons for that?
47.
Secondly, with regard to the five models that you have set out, there is much food for thought in what you have put before us. There is some education going on in a small number of the all-ability schools here in Northern Ireland, and that has not been referred to in your work. Why has that not been brought to our attention?
48.
Finally, underachievement is a very worrying issue, in particular, the standards of literacy and numeracy. According to a recent paper from the Training and Employment Agency the proportion of low levels of literacy and numeracy has risen to 19%. Obviously, they are pointing out that there is a cost to them if they were to try to increase the levels of literacy and numeracy at this stage. Is there a way to save money in that respect? We are already spending millions in both primary and secondary education trying to counteract this. Have you any comments to make about literacy and numeracy in relation to this report?
49.
Prof Gallagher: The first question was in relation to the performance patterns of controlled and maintained secondary schools. Whilst studying the focus which appeared to influence the performance of schools, we used a statistical model to identify the combination of factors which best explained the performance of particular groups of schools. With secondary schools, the analysis suggested that controlled schools had a separate pattern of factors influencing their performance as opposed to the maintained and the integrated schools. From our study at both the maintained and integrated schools, the same set of factors appeared to be playing a role.
50.
The best explanation or key part of the explanation is that a slightly higher number of pupils with higher transfer grades are going into the integrated and maintained secondary schools. This creates a slightly different dynamic within schools altogether. There is an issue particularly in some of the inner city controlled schools, which face problems of extreme social disadvantage in alienated communities. There are larger issues to be addressed there, but those are often to do with very particular circumstances.
51.
You asked about the issue of all-ability schools. It is true that 90% of pupils in the Northern Ireland school system are directly or indirectly affected by the 11-plus system. The other 10% comprise pupils involved in the Craigavon system, or those who go to about a dozen all-ability comprehensive schools designated as such by their Education and Library Boards.
52.
Previous work looked at the Craigavon system and at some of those all-ability schools. In this project we were asked to focus specifically on the selective system. We or others could look at what is happening in Northern Ireland's comprehensive schools. I feel there is a story to be told. I am sure they have experiences they would be keen to share, but in our work, we concentrated on a more unitary comprehensive system. That involved collecting data on the Scottish system, and we did some work on the schools there. We felt that that might provide a better set of data on a wholly comprehensive system if we wanted that as a counterpoint.
53.
The third point relates to issues of literacy. We did not specifically focus on literacy in our work, but I will pick up on a point made by Prof. Smith. There is a general commitment to promote lifelong learning and to tackle literacy as a key issue, particularly in primary schools. One of the issues emerging from the evidence we have is that the situation that secondary schools face is hard, and is getting harder. In some senses, the combination of selection and open enrolment creates a situation where secondary schools constantly face challenges. That makes their task more difficult. Yet it is our opinion, taken from those secondary schools, that the public judge them on their academic criteria. That does not help them concentrate their energies across the board. It probably does not help in the achievement of the issue of tackling the literacy problems which we know are there and are important.
54.
Mr S Wilson: In the first part of your reply you mentioned the difficulties with some controlled schools, especially those in the inner city. You said that in areas of high social deprivation you would expect some link with educational performance. I notice that throughout your report you refer to both of those items. Would social deprivation rather than the selection procedure partly explain the long tail? Is it because we have concentrated higher levels of social deprivation? Have you completed any comparisons with selective systems elsewhere?
55.
Prof Gallagher: There are not many selective systems operating outside Northern Ireland. The German- type systems involve three types of school. The third type of secondary school, the Hauptschule, tends to display some of the characteristics of some of the lower-achieving secondary schools in our system. In the specific case of Germany, the Hauptschule, these days, have a relatively low proportion of pupils attending them. They tend to have a high proportion of children of guest workers, which are migrant families. There are a series of problems in that system.
56.
I think you are correct that part of the explanation for the long tail of low-achieving schools in our system is related directly to social disadvantage and concentrated social disadvantage. Our evidence suggests that the demography of social disadvantage, and especially where this is concentrated in cities, is exacerbated by the selective system. It combines pupils who face social and disadvantage problems with those of relatively low ability. The combination creates the problem.
57.
In the Scottish system there was social differentiation across the schools in the area we examined. That differentiation was closely linked to the catchment areas. There was not the same effect of ability differentiation across the schools, so the consequences of concentrated social disadvantage in that context were not as extreme as in our situation.
58.
Mr McHugh: Mr Chairman, are we going to take two or three questions at once?
59.
The Chairperson: Originally I intended that we would deal with one question at a time, and we will try to revert to that.
60.
Mr McHugh: For feedback and record purposes, we need to get answers to a number of questions.
61.
My question relates to innovation in secondary schools and school league tables. Research shows that secondary school teachers displayed a distinct resentment at a lack of acknowledgement amongst the wider public on the challenges and difficulties they faced. There was also evidence that secondary schools had tried to innovate in areas such as ability grouping, pupil monitoring or special needs. Is there any evidence to suggest that such attempts, using innovative teaching approaches and methods in secondary schools, have been acknowledged through the school league tables?
62.
Prof Gallagher: The problem with the school performance tables is that they tend to provide specific sets of indicators related to attainment patterns, and people tend to look at a particular set of tables in the abstract, rather than year on year.
63.
One area which shows the effects of some of these innovative strategies in secondary schools is the pattern of improvement that some have shown over time, and that is acknowledged within the system by people who work there and who are aware of the effects of these processes. If we accept that education is about more than qualifications - albeit that qualifications are important - then perhaps we should try to find ways of extending the school performance tables to provide a wider range of information. We may be straying from the main subject of the report, but, nevertheless, it is an important issue.
64.
Mr McHugh: I have spoken about the economy to people in industry and hear of a need for life skills to provide for future industry. Can the curriculum be tailored to provide this? I suspect that grammar schools do not do that. Would the secondary school system better deliver that need?
65.
Prof Gallagher: The low status which vocational education has been given in the past is recognised as a long-standing problem in the education system, not just in Northern Ireland but in the United Kingdom generally. Some interesting things are being done to cope with that in Scotland, but people often look to the German or Dutch systems where a much stronger status is accorded to vocational education. It is clear that those systems link directly into industry and the labour market, and evidence suggests that those systems provide opportunities in skilled employment that other systems do not. The question is where do we place vocational education and how can we raise the status of that system of education and the qualifications associated with it?
66.
Mr McHugh: The report states that
"It is difficult to estimate the impact of religion on grammar school performance, because the social characteristics of Catholic and other grammar schools, as measured by the proportion of pupils who are entitled to free school meals, are so different.".
Why was this so?
67.
Prof Gallagher: When we were constructing our statistical models to look at the factors that influenced performance outcomes, a number of different factors were fed into the equation. The three main ones were: the level of social disadvantage, measured by free school meals entitlement; the proportion of girls in a school, because the higher proportion of girls generally reflected higher performance in the school; and the proportion of pupils with high transfer grades. In some situations religion seems to be a factor, but, in the particular instance you referred to, there is very little overlap when one looks at the free school meal entitlement pattern for Catholic grammar schools as opposed to other grammar schools.
68.
The average level of free school meal entitlement in Catholic grammar schools is considerably higher than in any of the other grammar schools and, even in terms of the overall pattern, there is very little overlap between the two. Because of that, statistically it is difficult to differentiate between the effect of religion and the effect of the free school meal entitlement. It is almost a technical problem. But all the other evidence suggests that the free school meal entitlement factor is likely to be a more important influence on the eventual outcomes.
69.
Mr S Wilson: I notice in your concluding remarks, and also in the report, that you indicate that the starting point for the discussion ought to be the social, educational and economic objectives of young people. Then we should look at the structures. In a theoretical world, we would all sign up to that, but that has implications which you have spelt out in the report. If we adopt a non-selective system, we could be reducing the number of schools from 238 to 178, and that causes political antennae to start shivering a little.
70.
How did you come to that conclusion? Secondly, we do know that we have cost in introducing a non- selective system. Are you suggesting that that is how the introduction of structural changes, which may result from this study, could be financed?
71.
Prof Gallagher: No. The reason for that particular part of the analysis is that we were asked specifically by the Department of Education to consider a theoretical model if we were to move to a non-selective system, in order to try to get some indication of the extent of change that might be required. We do not claim this to be a definitive plan for any new system. It is meant to illustrate the extent of change that could happen under one scenario.
72.
The way we did it was to take different geographical areas, look at the number of school places available in those areas and set that against the number of school pupils in those areas. If you work on the assumption that in a non-selective system you can get rid of a great deal of the surplus capacity that is the consequence that emerges. You need surplus capacity in a selective system in order to have real choice. We kept a number of other parameters stable, such as the provision of denominational options, or the provision of single-sex options in the various areas. In addition, we did not make any assumptions about any decline or growth in integrated education.
73.
The purpose of the exercise was simply to illustrate some of the consequences of change. Much of the discussion about the system is in a vacuum, and that was a way to root it in a degree of reality. If we make radical changes, there are big consequences, and so that needs to be factored into a decision.
74.
The point we are making at the end of the report and the point that I concluded with is that we should look at what we want and then look at structures. I still think that that is a good way of doing it, even though it may well be a bit abstract. Fortunately, academics do not have to be elected. If you can identify an ideal possibility, then politicians have to make the hard decisions about how close you can get to that. I do not think there is any harm in having an ideal to work towards, while recognising that nothing is ever perfect.
75.
The Chairperson: Is there not an argument, which is not included in your conclusions, that the answer would be to provide two or three additional grammar schools? Under the existing flawed examination system pupils in some areas of the province are not guaranteed a grammar school place even though they get a grade A, yet in other rural areas, pupils are getting into grammar schools with a grade C1. Is one way of rectifying this situation not to provide more grammar schools thus making them more accessible?
76.
Prof Gallagher: When we talk about maintaining the status quo as a model, that involves fine-tuning the current system.
77.
Yes, that would be one way of dealing with aspects of the issue. In the current system the Department's policy is that there should be enough grammar places for all pupils who get a grade A and about 80% of the pupils who get a grade B. My understanding is that so long as that criterion is met, the Department's position is satisfied.
78.
But you are correct; there are some areas where the availability of grammar school places is such that often C1 or C2 grade pupils, and sometimes D grade pupils, receive grammar school places. The logic of the system is an issue. When the selective system was introduced in 1947, somewhere in the region of 20% of pupils were going into grammar schools. By the time it had settled before open enrolment, 27% of the age cohort went into grammar schools, and now we have 34% or maybe sometimes 35%.
79.
As outlined in one of our comparative papers there is still a small number of grammar schools in some areas in England. These schools set a test with a limit which a student must reach before being deemed suitable for a grammar school place. If enough students do not achieve this level the places remain unfilled. In England a clear criterion has been identified, which must be met before a grammar school place is offered. That is one possibility - define a criterion rather than leaving it to the markets available to fill up the places.
80.
Mr McElduff: I commend Prof Gallagher and Prof Smith on the presentation of their report. It was much awaited. The big question over the summer was when the results of their research would be available. We are at the beginning of a very important journey that will, it is to be hoped, map out the most appropriate system for all our children - but that is work for another day. The research findings are not supposed to be prescriptive about that.
81.
My question relates to the influence of coaching with regard to the movement of pupils between school types - from grammar to secondary and from secondary to grammar. Does this suggest that a child who is coached towards an on-the-day performance often finds himself unable to meet the challenges of a grammar school? Likewise, where a child underperforms on the day and finds himself in a secondary school, the move upwards to a grammar school may cause the same problem. Did the research produce quantifiable statistics to indicate the extent to which transfer grades are not an accurate reflection of a child's overall ability?
82.
Prof Gallagher: Previous work that was carried out in the 1980s attempted to quantify that and described it as misplacements in the system - pupils who were deemed suitable for grammar school but did not achieve the expected performance at sixteen, and pupils who had not been deemed fit for grammar school but did achieve a high level of performance at sixteen. That followed a pattern of work done in the 1950s and 1960s when there was an attempt to try to identify the error factor in the grades.
83.
This is not so easy to do now, because quite a few secondary schools are obtaining high levels of performance from their pupils. Somewhere in the region of thirty secondary schools send students to higher education. That is part of an evolving policy in the system, which sees the role of secondary schools as having changed over time. There is no longer an expectation that students leave school at sixteen with few qualifications and go into an apprenticeship. That is a past world.
84.
That creates a difficulty in trying to define exactly that notion. One body of evidence that maybe relates to this - and you might like to examine it sometime - is the work done by Prof Gardner and Pamela Cowan from the Graduate School of Education. They looked at some of the technical issues in relation to the tests and the extent to which they felt there were problems with the accuracy of the test. However, that is something that you would have to talk to them about.
85.
In our discussions with teachers in grammar and secondary schools, we found that some of them felt that there were some pupils who had come through to their schools with a transfer grade that belied their ability. They often attributed that to the effects of coaching. However, that was speculation on their part, and we simply reported that that was a perception in the system.
86.
Prof Smith: I want to mention one other dimension of those transfers. Transfers from grammar to secondary schools are often the cause of resentment amongst secondary schools, particularly in cases where the transfer has been for behavioural reasons. The feeling is that if someone has academic ability and the reason for the transfer is a behavioural one, then surely the pupil should be relocated to another grammar school rather than simply being passed on to a secondary school for them to cope with.
87.
Mr McElduff: Is there any comparison or correlation between the number of places provided in integrated colleges and the number of pupils opting out of the transfer procedure?
88.
Prof Gallagher: If you look overall at secondary schools, something like 20% or 25% of the pupils who enter secondary schools have not taken the transfer test. If you look at the much smaller number of integrated schools, over the years the average is between 35% and 40%, and I suspect that that larger proportion of pupils who opted out is due to the fact that a significant proportion of those pupils perhaps attended integrated primary schools, and for them, the transfer process was not relevant, because they were always intending to go straight through to the other school anyway. That is the evidence we have on that.
89.
Mr McElduff: Would the same apply to Irish- medium schools?
90.
Prof Gallagher: Quite possibly, yes.
91.
Mr K Robinson: I would like to tease out the social differentiation aspect there. Section 4 (2) of your report draws links between open enrolment and a widening of this social gap between pupils. In the event of certain conclusions being drawn at the end of this consultation period, is there not also a possibility of an increase in the numbers and, indeed, the role of independent schools in an independent sector and that would therefore add to a widening of that gap?
92.
Prof Gallagher: Do you mean in the future?
93.
Mr K Robinson: In the future, should certain conclusions be drawn at the end of this process.
94.
Prof Gallagher: Yes. One of the issues that comes up in discussion and debate about the future of the English public school system - and when I say "public", I mean the state school system - is that a fairly high proportion of pupils go to independent schools. Many critics of Government policy argue that more should be done to try to encourage parents to send their children back to the state schools and draw them away from the independent sector.
95.
This is an issue, to a certain extent, in Scotland, but there is a much lower proportion of pupils who attend independent schools in Scotland. I suppose it is a possibility that if there were a radical change, then there probably would be some independent schools open. They already have one college that is trying to operate as an independent institute, although I understand numbers are quite small. That may well be a possibility, but the best safeguard, in a sense, if you want to have a safeguard - and I am not sure if that is the most appropriate term - against that is to have a system of schools, however it is organised, that commands a high degree of confidence among the public. If we have that, then people will not feel the need to pay extra for independent schools. This is what happens in many European countries where there are private schools, but people tend to go to them for the social cachet they provide rather than for any sort of qualifications advantage that they may derive from them.
96.
There is not the same pattern in many European countries as there is in Britain where there is the independent school, which feeds through to a leading university, which feeds through to leading positions in society. That does not happen in most European countries, and it may be that that relates to the nature of their systems.
97.
Mr K Robinson: This morning, when the report was being presented, we talked about the social, then the educational and then the economic. I would have expected the educational aspect to be first, but perhaps that was just a slip of the tongue.
98.
Prof Gallagher: Those three dimensions are all important.
99.
Mr K Robinson: They are inter-related, but I would have thought the focus should be on education.
100.
The Chairperson: In terms of the independent schools, what is your view as to how desirable or undesirable the creation of an independent sector would be? Would it not distort the educational picture and end up being a rich man's benefit?
101.
Prof Gallagher: I think it would be a fair argument to say that that is a problem in England, because about 9%, possibly 10% of pupils go to independent schools in England. It is a problem - one that people are tackling. People are trying to identify ways in which the state system can be made more attractive, and some of those parents may be drawn back. That would be a problem if something like that were to happen, but the solution is to try to develop a state system that people see the value of.
102.
Mr S Wilson: You mentioned social differentiation. I do not know that we are unique in this, but we do have concentrations of social disadvantage, especially in parts of Belfast and in the inner parts of Londonderry. Would it not be likely, at least in certain parts of Northern Ireland, because of the concentrations of social disadvantage and the fact that a local school would be serving those areas, that if we were to move to a non-selective system that the level of social separation would be increased rather than evened out?
103.
I know that a lot of youngsters who go to grammar schools in Belfast would not have the opportunity for the social mix they have at present if they were to go to a local school which has local enrolment.
104.
Prof Gallagher: I think that certainly is an issue we wanted to explore. If you were to get rid of the selective system you would not solve those sorts of problems overnight. When we looked at the situation in the Scottish area, exactly that pattern was coming out. There was social differentiation across the schools, and that was directly related to the schools' locations and the main catchment areas that they drew their pupils from.
105.
That is the reality. Those problems are not solved by moving to that type of common system. In that particular instance the consequences did not seem to be so severe as in some of the inner city areas here. The effect of social disadvantage is not being reinforced with other constraints, which happens in our selective system.
106.
In one of the papers we mentioned one system which has devised a way which appears to solve the problems of social differentiation between schools, but I am not sure that people would want to adopt it. That system is a simple one identified in order to remove this difficulty of social differentiation. It has been used in South Korea. When pupils get to the end of their time in primary school they are allocated to a post- primary school on the basis of a lottery. Overnight they solved the problem of social differentiation.
107.
Mr S Wilson: It could be you. [Laughter]
108.
Prof Gallagher: It could be you, indeed, yes.
109.
Geoffrey Wolford from Oxford has written a great deal about this issue. He argues that it is actually a fairer system to operate, because one of the consequences for parents in a particular area is that there is a incentive for all the schools in that area to be good because their child could end up going to any one of them, whereas in a selective system, parents whose children can get into the better schools think that those schools are good, and they do not care about the rest.
110.
Mrs E Bell: Throughout the report you talk about the low morale, the perception of low status among secondary schools and the grammar school effect, that is a grammar school effect is equal to 16 GCSE points. You stated that the most important factor is for pupils to achieve a high GCSE score and to achieve it in a grammar school. Could you offer further information regarding this? You go on to mention the value-added effect of achieving a grammar school place. Say a pupil with a B2 gets a place in a grammar school - there is some irregularity there. Can you elaborate on that?
111.
Prof Gallagher: In terms of statistical issues, when you call for all factors, including the transfer grade, and all other things being equal, a grammar school pupil will get a higher attainment at 16 than a secondary school pupil, even if they got the same transfer grade level and regardless of what that transfer grade was. We describe that as the grammar effect - the value-added benefit in attainment terms from being in a grammar school.
112.
Mrs E Bell: You say "statistical". Does that not take many things for granted? Is the general perception that the statistics are just adding to the idea that a secondary school is secondary to a grammar school?
113.
Prof Gallagher: Personally, I would be astonished if a grammar school did not have a grammar effect. A grammar school's purpose - its mission - is to achieve high academic results, and it selects its pupils in order to achieve that. There would be something seriously wrong if it did not do that. Pupils in grammar schools sit more GCSEs than those in secondary schools, and the ones in grammar schools are more likely to pass those GCSEs because of those schools' role and purpose.
114.
Anyone who gets there benefits from it, and I think that is important. That is partly why so many parents value grammar schools - the fact that there is a tangible, measurable benefit to a pupil who gets there. However, the corollary of that is also important - you have to see the whole picture - and part of that whole picture is the long tail of low-achieving schools. I think those two things go together.
115.
Mrs E Bell: The problem with the secondary schools is that the diversity of their mission is not acknowledged. I accept what you are saying, but I am concerned about the possibility that these two differences will be institutionalised if we keep on the way that we are.
116.
Mr K Robinson: Mr Chairman, is there not a lesson there? There seems to be a focus on the grammar school; there is an expectation of the grammar school; it is aiming for its objective. There seems to be a suggestion that, unfortunately, the secondary school has several objectives - has not quite got the focus for a variety of reasons - and, therefore, the package is not right. Should we be beginning to aim for a more focused secondary education?
117.
Prof Gallagher: There is something of an anomaly there. I talked about the introduction of the common curriculum, and there is something of an anomaly in terms of both types of schools' working towards that common curriculum, being judged on academic results, and yet there is this other aspect: to what extent do we value the academic alongside the technical and the vocational? The fact that there is not that kind of equality of status presents a real dilemma, I suppose, for where you would want to move to from this situation, because carried along with any proposals to move in any direction, if part of what you are seeking to achieve is more parity of esteem, if you like, for these tracks, then it is going to require a considerable cultural shift in this society.
118.
There are long associations in terms of the status attached to these, and so that would be part of any kind of transition.
119.
Mr McHugh: Rather than focusing on structures, I think we should focus on what is best for everyone on the equality front. I wonder about the impact of the expectations of children who have failed at 11 and go to a secondary school. What if they go on to occupy management positions or are high-attainers in the job sector? Is there evidence that the impact of their expectations has followed them right through their employment years indefinitely?
120.
Prof Gallagher: We did have evidence that there are different patterns of expectation among pupils in the schools. When we talked to pupils in the grammar schools and asked them what they were aiming towards, the pattern that emerged was very uniform. They were all expecting to do well in their GCSEs; almost all of them were expecting to come back to do A Levels, and they were pretty much all expecting to go on to university, and then life would open in front of them. The pattern of expectations among pupils in secondary schools was much more diverse. Some of them wanted to do A Levels and go to university; some of them wanted to come back and do GNVQs; some of them wanted to leave at age 16 and go into youth training or get jobs or go into further education. There was a whole variety of routes, and the potential problem is that there is a dampening down in terms of the highest expectations, but it comes back to the point about the mission of the secondary schools. The problem faced by a secondary school is that it is trying to do a great many different things, and there is the reality of the group of pupils that it is faced with. It is judged publicly on only one of those things, yet it is trying to do many other things. It is not the school's problem; it is a problem created for them by the system.
121.
Mr McElduff: A key message given to the children at that stage could be critical to the rest of their lives.
122.
Mr Gallagher: The problems that are coming through strongly are experienced right across Northern Ireland, and this will move forward to consultation and, it is to be hoped, towards solutions as well. Bearing in mind what you say about the sequencing and the importance of objectives and structures, if we were limited to a single solution for the North, can the objectives be met? I believe it is possible to have more than one solution. In different areas we might have different solutions that people are comfortable with in those areas and that meet the requirements. Do you have views about that?
123.
Prof Smith: The contrast between the way in which comprehensive education was introduced in England as opposed to Scotland was the fact that it was done in a less whole-hearted way in England. Because of the variety of approaches, with some areas retaining grammar schools, you got a compromised comprehensive system. That is one explanation put forward as to why the academic attainment would be higher in Scotland than in England and Wales; there was a much more whole-hearted approach in that jurisdiction. Once you get local solutions for local situations you get a mixture of systems operating, and they interact with each other. This can also have unexpected effects and outcomes.
124.
Mr K Robinson: We are still trying to tease out this matter. You mentioned the German model - it seems to have a focus, status and an acceptance in the eyes of German society. That started me thinking about the Scottish model as opposed to the English model, and the reluctance to take on comprehensive education and the escape from comprehensive education by moving house in England. Is the Scots' apparent success based on the inert historical relationship between the Scots and education and the value they put on education? Is it simply being transferred on to this new model and that is the reason for its apparent success, or is it the model itself that is driving the success?
125.
Prof Gallagher: There is a high regard for education in Scotland as there is for it in Northern Ireland. All the surveys suggest that the regard with which education is held in both those places is much higher than in England. The demography of Scotland is also closer to Northern Ireland in terms of the number of market towns that we have.
126.
I am not sure that I can directly answer your question, but I can say that the teachers in Scotland are very content with the system, and they attribute its success to its structure and the fact that there is a unitary comprehensive system. There is no great clamour for change and no desire to go back to what previously existed.
127.
Mr K Robinson: There is no parental clamour for change?
128.
Prof Gallagher: None that we are aware of.
129.
Mr McElduff: What part of Mr Gallagher's or Mr McHugh's constituency could the South Korean lottery model be tailored for?
130.
The Chairperson: The Presbyterians of South Armagh.
131.
Mr McElduff: On a more serious note, I was surprised not to see any scrutiny of the situation in the Twenty-Six Counties and how that could be instructive, or is there any useful message to be learned from the system applied there?
132.
Prof Gallagher: Part of the paper looks at the system in the Republic. There is an interesting similarity in many respects between the system in Scotland and that in the Republic. They both have broader leaving certificate examinations; they are ostensibly both common school systems. Realistically, in the Republic there is a greater deal of social differentiation because of the history of the schools. It is, perhaps, disguised in terms of official rhetoric, but there is a strong residential effect and a popular sense of the better schools, and people will work hard to try to get into them.
133.
To an extent it is greater in the Republic than in the Scottish system. I was also interested that in Wales they are exploring a Welsh baccalaureate as a leaving certificate examination, which is making a break with the A level systems operating in England. There are interesting developments with devolution where people are beginning to move in different directions. This is a challenge to yourselves. We can provide you with the information to consider decisions for the future, but you are elected to make the decisions.
134.
Mr S Wilson: In section 7 of the report, section (2) paragraphs 1, 2 and 3, you mention that some teachers were concerned that because of the transfer test and the emphasis placed on it, that key elements of the Key Stage 2 curriculum were missed out on and, perhaps, given less emphasis. I am not blaming this on you; it could well be that the teachers are contradictory, which would not be unusual. It seems to contradict section 3(2) where teachers are saying that they had to find ways of keeping those pupils who did not go in for the transfer test busy. I would have thought that if it were difficult to deliver Key Stage 2, at least those pupils not entering the test would have had the opportunity to experience the breadth of the curriculum. That is a question for the teachers, not you. There appears to be a contradiction there. Is there any evidence, as a result of there being less emphasis on all of the Key Stage 2 curriculum, that it led to literacy and numeracy problems and that youngsters were not achieving levels of literacy and numeracy because of the emphasis on the 11 plus?
135.
Secondly, did that follow through? Was it a long-term effect? Was it quickly remedied once people went to secondary level, or were the effects seen right throughout Key Stage 3 or maybe even to GCSE?
136.
Prof Gallagher: We do not have any direct evidence of the impact of some of these issues in Key Stage 2 on levels of literacy. The main conclusion we draw is that it is a consequence of the perceived importance of getting to grammar school. Much of the upper years of primary school is organised around the test. Even though the purpose of the test is to identify the 25% of the cohort who will get a grade A and a proportion who will get a grade B, it is designed to identify a minority of pupils among the whole lot. It seems that the priority in the upper years of the primary school is geared towards that issue and, to a degree, to the neglect of the others. We do not have any direct evidence of those links, but that is the main thing that appears to be happening.
137.
You ask about its longer-term consequences. It comes back to our attempt to try to understand the explanations or the factors behind patterns of performance at 16 and the differential factors that influence performance in grammar and secondary schools. That is the best sense of what the consequences of differentiation at 11 are.
138.
The Chairperson: I think there is a lot of concern, and the Gardner and Cowan report highlighted, in part, the flawed method the current system uses, the lack of knowledge that either parents or teachers have or pupils are given as to how they do, and how it is finally determined. Is there anything we can do to reform that, or is that beyond the pale?
139.
Prof Gallagher: The Gardner and Cowan report raised some questions about the technical aspects of the tests. That was based on samples. There is another question if you look at the population data of whether the same sorts of issues would emerge, but that is one for a separate day. In direct answer to your question, the best way of thinking about it, for me, is to look at the systems that operate in Germany and the Netherlands. They allow parents to choose and operate that system. Not all the parents choose to go to the academic grammar schools, yet they operate a system of different tracks. There must be something happening in that system that allows parental choice to operate and not need a test. Maybe if there were a closer status between the grammar and secondary schools, or the secondary schools offered something more distinctive that would seem to be of value, then you would not need a test to make that decision for people.
140.
If the grammar and secondary schools had a similar status, or the secondary schools offered something more distinctive apparent to be of value, then you would not need to have a test to make that decision for people.
141.
Mr S Wilson: In your introductory remarks you said that one of the effects on teaching strategies was the narrowing of the range of strategies or techniques; that there was less emphasis on creative writing and that the mathematics content of Key Stage 2 was squeezed into the first year. I do not want to say that teachers were lying about this, but are you not surprised that if that were the case that there was not some fairly conclusive evidence? There must have been an effect on levels of numeracy and literacy. The fact that you do not have any clear evidence about the effects on numeracy and literacy may be an indication that that criticism of the transfer test is not as strong or as valid as suggested in the evidence given to you.
142.
Prof Smith: One piece of evidence that might illuminate that was the report of discrepancies that secondary and grammar school teachers commented on. That was between Key Stage assessments reported by primary schools and teachers' subsequent views on where children were in their key stage progression. In many cases post-primary school teachers regarded the reported attainment levels as being overly inflated. They were having to go back over work in mathematics, and particularly in science, to check the basic understanding of concepts.
143.
Prof Gallagher: I did not say that we did not have any evidence and that there was not an impact. We did not look for any of that data, so we are not able to answer the question. We do not have the data available. As a general principle, when we were doing the work we tried to look at every issue from a number of different perspectives, so that any conclusions we made would be clear. On this particular issue there was a separate study carried out by the National Foundation for Educational Research for the curriculum body, the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) as part of a cohort study where they followed groups of pupils from primary to post-primary school as part of the work that CCEA was doing on the new curriculum. They used different methods and different approaches, but the conclusions they derived are completely in accord with ours. Two different studies looking at the same issue in quite different ways came to the same conclusions.
144.
Mr McHugh: It is inevitable that conflicts will arise on those going forward and those opting out. One might question whether they opted out or whether they where moved out when they where told that their child is not going to pass. That is based heavily on achieving high pass rates, which becomes a bit like the Olympics after the results come out. I wonder about parental choice and the focus and results of the message that I mentioned before.
145.
There is also the message about moving part of the class to a different learning group for a period until that examination result is achieved. The message to them in that is quite clear, long before they have even left the school. There are many conflicts of interest from 1 September right through until the exams are actually done or not done.
146.
Prof Gallagher: There was some work done by BDO Stoy Hayward for part of the project. They surveyed parents, particularly those who had opted their children out of the test and asked them why they had done so. In most cases the reason was that they did not expect them to get the highest grades. Very often this is based on advice from the teachers. To us that indicates a positive relationship between schools, teachers and the parents, in that the schools feel that they can give out advice and the parents feel able to take it. We have got to remember that the transfer tests are not designed to try to see what the score of the individual pupil is.
147.
They rank pupils, so only 25% of the cohort can get a grade A, and it does not matter how much encouragement or support pupils get, only 25% can get the top grade. It is a very particular type of test. It is potentially a bigger problem in that there is a group of primary schools, 200 or so, where a very high proportion of pupils get a grade D, yet a very small proportion of the pupils are opted out. From the point of view of the interest of pupils, it is of greater concern that for some reason the parents are putting their children through a process which does not make a lot of sense.
148.
Mr K Robinson: I refer to the discussion between Mr Wilson and Mr Smith. Is it the case that the performance of children when they go into secondary school in some cases is not matching their performance as reported on their Key Stage 2 assessments?
149.
Prof Smith: Yes, there are instances of teachers reporting that to us. It was not a quantitative study, so we have not assessed the extent of that perception. Added to this there may always be a subjective aspect to the post-primary schoolteachers' views of what is going on in the secondary school.
150.
The Chairperson: There appears to be a gradual shift to a more comprehensive school system in European countries and those systems are now moving closer together in the pursuit of higher standards and school improvement. Is there any evidence to suggest that schools in Europe are achieving these goals?
151.
Prof Gallagher: Education and school reform has been a worldwide phenomenon over the last 10 to 20 years. One of the main consequences in Europe has been less concern with debates about structures, and more concern, as you say, in our report, about raising standards. In Italy, for example, they are beginning to have more differentiation earlier in the system in pursuit of that end. However, in the Netherlands they have introduced what is called an orientation year, which sometimes extends to two years, where there is a common curriculum in the first couple of years of post-primary education. Here we have a differential system moving in the direction of commonality, and a common system moving in a direction of differentiation, both in pursuit of higher standards.
152.
Generally the evidence is that standards are increasing as a consequence of all these reforms, but the key issue is what is happening in the classrooms. If there are going to be improvements in schools and in the systems, that is where they have to start. In the classroom, the school and the education system as a whole, the key question is what they can do to help teachers improve what is happening in the teaching and learning environment of classrooms.
153.
Mr K Robinson: Taking up the European model again, what strikes me when I go to Europe is the status of teachers. Teachers view themselves as professional; society treats them as professional. As a result, parents will take their professional advice. I was heartened to hear you mention those schools where teachers had advised parents to opt their children out of the transfer procedure. We have not dealt with that aspect of our school system. How do we enhance the professional status and, indeed, the training element for our teachers, so that the parents more readily accept their words and professional advice?
154.
Prof Gallagher: That is crucially important. A key aspect of that are the consequences, if we have a differentiated system. It is important that parents see that the pupils will benefit, no matter which part of it they go in to. At the moment there is a question mark as to whether parents see that. It is not the fault of the schools; it is a consequence of the system we have.
155.
Mr S Wilson: There were seemingly two strands here - vocational and academic. Is it purely parents' selection there, or is there some aptitude test, or whatever, which guides the parents in their choice?
156.
Prof Gallagher: There is a third track; a secondary track where about 20% of pupils go into the Hauptschule, but practice varies across the different lands in Germany, as it is a federal country.
157.
Yes, it is a parental choice, but there are consequences of making an over-ambitious choice. If pupils are in the academic schools, they are required to achieve a minimum standard or level each year before they are allowed to proceed. If they do not reach that level, then they can be either held back a year, or asked to move a level. That is the point regarding flexibility. Flexibility does exist in the system, and because there are many ladders and connections leading in various directions, that is the key part of the system. However, there does not appear to be the same degree of flexibility in our system.
158.
The Chairperson: I will now draw this special meeting of the Education Committee to a close. It has been extremely useful. I would like to thank both of you for your input today and for this important piece of work that you have produced. It must have taken a great deal of time, effort, and soul-searching. I hope this is the real beginning of a major debate on education in which everyone will be welcome to participate. We look forward to seeing you, perhaps, at later stages during the consultative period, and, even afterwards, when we have arrived at some conclusions. To those members of the general public who have attended, we express our thanks and gratitude to you and hope that you found the meeting stimulating and useful.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 26 October 2000
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr G Burns)Chairman of the Review Body on Post-Primary Education
Mr A McVeigh)Secretary to the Review Body on Post-Primary Education
159.
The Chairperson: I am pleased to welcome Mr Burns and Mr McVeigh of the Independent Review Body for Post-Primary Education. We look forward to a useful exchange of views and information which will help all of us as we move forward in this important subject.
160.
I understand that you are going to make a presentation, and we will ask questions afterwards.
161.
Mr Burns: I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the Committee. I read through the Assembly debate. Most, if not all, of you participated, and I found it positive and constructive. It helped considerably to set the standard for debate that one hopes will take place over the next few months.
162.
It will be best if I explain what I have been up to so far. We have established an office in Adelaide Street in Belfast to set out the independence of the Review Body, away from the Department. I am not a civil servant, but a number of civil servants on detached duty will assist the Review Body. I should mention that, at the time of my appointment, the Minister gave me a full assurance that he would not interfere in any way with the discussions or work of the Review Body. I also have received that assurance from the Permanent Secretary. I expect that they will keep their word. If anything were to happen that I felt was compromising my position in any way, I would let that be known. In that case, I have the ultimate sanction of walking away from it.
163.
I want to establish a high standard of accessibility to the office. We started off by advertising and have carried out our first advertisements. We will be following those up and asking people to make submissions. To some extent we have established dates but they are, in some ways, constrained by the time scale. At the time of the press launch I said that I had reservations about the time scale. I am to have a report ready by the end of May. At the minute I cannot say that that is too short.
164.
I understand that people are anxious to see this brought to a conclusion as soon as possible. I will make every effort to do that, but the time scale may need to be revised and I will speak to the Minister about that.
165.
I have been sending letters to schools, trades unions, area boards, district councils, and all the public and representative bodies that I can think of, asking them to submit their views or comments on this matter. I want to be as transparent as possible in that regard but I do realise the limitations. I have told all of them that their submission will go on a web site, unless they prefer it not to, so people can see what others are saying about this.
166.
I am anxious to ensure that the individual who is not articulate or forthright in his views should be given an opportunity to express them. I want to ensure that community groups, for instance, will play a part. I will be writing to at least a thousand community groups asking them to assist in and discuss the matter amongst themselves and, if necessary, to assist individuals. I know that public meetings are not everybody's cup of tea - although some may cater for individuals that does not necessarily mean that they can say whatever they want - nevertheless, I have established, or at least set out, a tentative schedule of public meetings. Twenty meetings have been scheduled throughout the Province and Mr McVeigh will let you know where we intend to hold them. I will be pleased to hear your comments on that.
167.
I have not as yet got a Review Body in place but I understand that one is being put together. The Minister told me that the Review Body would be appointed before the end of October, and I understand that the Committee was consulted about that. I am looking forward to that happening and when it does I hope to bring people together in meeting blocks of two days - I expect that people will have to travel and their diaries fill up quickly. I expect that we will meet about twice a month initially, depending on how things develop. We will probably meet about four times a month when it comes to the actual production of the report.
168.
I will have, I understand, five education advisers to test submissions with academic rigour. I will be pleased to see evidence from the research they have done in that area. I will also ask them for position papers on earlier activity. I will consult the Consultative Forum which will comprise representatives of area boards, trades unions, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and other bodies such as the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE). I do not expect that body to meet as regularly as the "formal" body, but it will be a group of people, who share a particular interest and who have experience in this field. I do not want to sit in an ivory tower preparing a report which is wonderful in theory but which will not work in practice. The Consultative Forum will help the Review Body to keep its feet on the ground.
169.
I have been following with interest the Committee's work and I hope that it will have significant influence. I have no doubt that you are going in the same direction as the Review Body. I want to see what can be done to stimulate people's interest as this is an opportunity for them to express a view on something which will affect the whole of society. I am glad that it transcends the political divides. Different people have different views, and that makes my job all the more interesting. People have sympathised with me for taking on this role. I have not reached a position of being pleased to accept their sympathy, and I look forward to this discussion.
170.
The Assembly discussion was very good, and I look forward to discussing the matter further. I am not carrying any baggage on the matter. I look forward to a constructive joyful discussion which is something that we need. We want to achieve an education system which will be an exemplar for other countries.
171.
The Review Body is not yet in place, but we can draw up a rough timetable for consultation for about the end of January. I have asked for substantial submissions to be in by the end of December. I am very anxious to get those, because there is a lot of work to be done. The evidence from the research and written submissions will have to be examined and considered during February and March. I hope to be able to compile a report by April or May - if everything goes well. Meetings and diaries have to be arranged. Various bodies will want a one-to-one discussion on many issues. There are 1,400 schools, many of which will be making substantial submissions. It looks like an increasingly difficult date to meet.
172.
I will review that position over the next month because the public meetings may not be well attended - I do not know. We might choose the wrong night for people in some towns; on the other hand, we might be overwhelmed.
173.
I will speak for 10 or 15 minutes at the meetings. It is hoped that a video presentation will stimulate discussion through a number of questions. The discussion will then be opened up to the floor, where there will be roving microphones. Each meeting will probably last for about an hour and a half, but the schedule, which runs until about mid-January, is tentative and tight.
174.
That gives you a flavour of what we have been up to. I will answer any questions that members have.
175.
Mr McVeigh: I have a copy of the schedule of public meetings, which is available for distribution. There should be one each. As Mr Burns said, the schedule should be treated as provisional. We will work with a company that will examine each venue in detail to ensure that it is appropriate and has the necessary facilities. That work is about to start, but at least three venues are regarded as TBC - to be confirmed - by the owners of the premises. The meetings will run, in no particular order, from mid-November to mid-January with a break of about a month in December/early January.
176.
Ms Lewsley: My question is about submissions. The Minister said that "significant submissions" would be brought to the attention of the Committee. What is your definition of a significant submission and how will you bring it to the Committee's attention? Will you hold meetings with those who provide a written submission?
177.
Mr Burns: I hope to respond to anyone who wants to have a meeting and submits what I consider to be a substantive submission. At this stage, a substantive submission may deal with the organisation of post-primary education in recent years, the current situation, and what should be done. I expect a submission will require a fair bit of reading and it would probably have to include evidence on supporting points, which may come in for analysis or criticism.
178.
Regarding what the Minister said about drawing the Committee's attention to significant submissions, I will put them on a website to achieve transparency. I cannot ensure that all of them will be printed because I do not know what they will contain. For example, a man told me - he may have been joking - that his school, which I consider to be an important one, will make a 69-page submission.
179.
That could not be done in the proposed timetable. The operation that I have put in place will be extremely difficult to reproduce for everybody. I am not clear about what the Minister said.
180.
Mr S Wilson: Did the Minister consult you on the commitment that he made to us? He made a commitment on your behalf that any significant submissions to the Review Body would be made available to the Committee. He did not elucidate what was meant by a significant submission. I do not know whether that refers to the number of pages or the content, as it is a fairly woolly term.
181.
Did the Minister run his commitments past you? If so, what advice did you give him? If he did not seek your advice, it was a bit naughty of him to have made a commitment on your behalf. Despite your answer, I am still not clear about what a significant submission might be. How often would the submissions be made available to us, and what would we be expected to do with them? Would you take comments from us, or would the process simply be informative?
182.
Mr Burns: The Minister had no discussions with me. I am independent, and it is important that I protect that independence. I do not foresee a problem in making submissions available - I want to be transparent - but I would find it difficult to place a duty on myself to ensure that submissions that I consider to be substantive are made available to the Committee. I want to liaise with the Committee on the discussion and on the submissions that are sent to me. The definition of "substantive" will evolve in the first few weeks because it may be relative to what we receive overall. I will be in a better position to answer that more definitively in about a month.
183.
The Chairperson: I understand you, but the Committee believes that a ministerial commitment has been given. It is unfortunate that the Minister did not share that commitment with you. Although you were left in the dark about it, we want to hold you to that promise.
184.
Mr Burns: I will get clarification on that.
185.
Mr S Wilson: I appreciate the commitment that you gave in your submission allowing the Committee a significant influence on the final report. The word "significant" comes up again. By what mechanism will we have that influence? How will you ensure that the Committee's views are reflected in the report?
186.
Mr Burns: The Committee is an important body. It is a body that will attract interest and can express opinions. I hope that it will influence people to respond to the Review Body and to make submissions, so that they do not miss the opportunity to express views on our education system. I expect that, occasionally, the Committee will make statements. During the existence of the Review Body, some research work may also be undertaken. I cannot say at this stage. The process will involve liaison.
187.
At the outset I said that we are all heading in the same direction. We want to see a system that provides the optimum education for all children and maximises their potential. We hope to find a modus vivendi towards achieving that objective.
188.
Mr Wilson: That is what worries me. You have outlined your objective, which is laudable and we share it. You want us to have significant influence, and we are told that we will find a modus operandi to do this. At present there is no clear method by which we can have influence. Our encouraging people to respond to the Review Body or making occasional statements is not a significant influence. I hope I am not doing an injustice to your comment.
189.
Mr Burns: I appreciate that. However, you will appreciate that the Review Body is not yet in place. As soon as it is, we will schedule a meeting to get things underway. I suspect that there are areas of work that could be carried out to assist the Review Body. I will produce a report outlining a series of recommendations. This will be presented to the Minister, after which it will be open for discussion. You ask me what your precise role is; at the moment I want you to support me in whatever way you can. If there is a more definitive way of doing this, I will let the Committee know.
190.
Mr McHugh: The last time I faced you, Mr Burns, was across the table at Fermanagh Council. We disagreed quite a number of times about standing orders. You mentioned some options that are of particular interest to me. However, there are other options that I hope can be included. In particular we could consider the system in the Twenty-Six Counties. That was missing from the report. There are also other schools that can be looked at in the Six Counties.
191.
I should like the consultation to be widened to take in such matters. Will that happen? It is important that people have the full range of options. Best practice should be taken on board, and those options should be considered which have proved successful in their own areas rather than merely consider those which are similar to our own. While I accept what has been said about substantive submissions, those making them need not have more say than the public - there must be a balance.
192.
The public will have 20 meetings. Places like Dungannon, which is quite a distance from Omagh, must be included as venues. The distance from one end of Fermanagh and South Tyrone to the other is quite substantial, something which is also true of Fermanagh itself. I am not sure that one meeting in Enniskillen is enough for the county. You have already mentioned my other difficulty: time constraints. The time available for consultation may not be enough for the public to have an input.
193.
Mr Burns: Let us look at the terms of reference on the matter of options: "To consider research and other relevant information on the impact of Selection on pupils".
194.
These terms of reference are very wide. I had other matters to attend to before I saw this. I was interested when the 11-plus was mentioned, but when I saw the terms of reference I knew that I would not be able to do anything else. My wife would also have a comment to make about that, for there were things to do at home.
195.
I am concerned about the research available on the options which can be included in submissions. People may bring in any other relevant information they wish. I appreciate the point that you make about substantive submissions - that you do not wish some people to have significant influence while others do not. That is why I feel it is terribly important that I retain my independence.
196.
If, however, people with a background in education or some standing in the field make a relevant submission and ask for a meeting, I cannot refuse them. There is no way I could do that. However, I can best serve every interested party by ensuring that the Review Body is as accessible as possible and that I pay attention to what they say.
197.
I will note what you say about Dungannon. I will be unable to attend all these meetings. I hope that the Review Body will be able to split up, with some members going to some places and some to others.
198.
Mr McVeigh: The list of venues will be compressed into two or three weeks in November and December and a couple of weeks in January. Meetings will almost certainly be held on the same night, so the Review Body will have to divide into two.
199.
The Chairperson: How do you intend to record the representations at the meetings?
200.
Mr Burns: We have hired a firm to provide a transcript.
201.
The Chairperson: I have a concern about the venues. Significant towns have not been included. Has this been done on a geographical or political basis?
202.
Mr Burns: It has been done not on a political basis but roughly on a geographical one, paying attention to the areas for boards and to the school population. It is not a definitive list, as even those venues have been difficult to obtain.
203.
The Chairperson: When I said political, I meant electoral.
204.
Mr Burns: I beg your pardon.
205.
Mr McElduff: Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Tá fáilte roimh an bheirt agaibh. We do not want this to be a rerun of the Gallagher Report findings. Serious consideration should be given to the system of vocational and community schools in the rest of Ireland. That is a flaw in the Gallagher Report, admirable though it was. Given the proximity and relevance of that system, it should have been examined further.
206.
Has there been any feedback from the Education and Library Boards' dissemination seminars? The profile of the office in Adelaide Street should be heightened to let people know that it is there. For practical and symbolic reasons, I would like to see a sub-office west of the Bann.
207.
Mr Burns: So would I, but we cannot afford it.
208.
Mr McElduff: Carrickmore was omitted from the list of venues for a significant time.
209.
Mr Burns: We will have advisers from the Republic of Ireland who will be familiar with vocational skills. If the Committee says to the Review Body "We think that you should be doing such and such", I am happy to listen. That is why we have advisers. A member of the Committee thought at first that I had arranged the Boards' dissemination seminars. I did not. They were arranged by the Department and Mr McVeigh went to them; I did not.
210.
Mr McVeigh: The seminars were attended by an invited audience of school principals and other educationalists. The feedback on the report was generally positive, but it was felt that the timetable was extremely tight for schools and for others who wished to comment. It was suggested that special arrangements should be made to allow the involvement of disadvantaged communities in the review. Those were the main themes to come through.
211.
Mr K Robinson: My colleagues mentioned the fact that the vocational schools in the Republic of Ireland were not looked at. My understanding is that you would be assisted by an adviser from the Republic of Ireland and by advisers from England and Scotland as well as by Professor Gallagher.
212.
I have raised the matter of the desirability of having a local adviser to help you other than Professor Gallagher, who has, after all, had a central role in compiling the report. It would bring an added welcome dimension from a local perspective. We could use all the different building blocks. The Minister has on at least two occasions been challenged by me to respond to that. On the last occasion in the House, during the debate, he nodded across and I took that as an acceptance.
213.
When gathering information and background, you will have to respond to community groups and others. You see those as being fairly central. I know that they do wonderful work - I am involved with them myself. Sometimes, however, I get a wee bit concerned that this distorts the true picture. As you are investigating the selection process it might be worthwhile contacting the primary seven year and primary six year pupils and their parents. It would be a good follow-up exercise to ask first and second-year pupils at secondary level what their experiences have been. Their parents' views should be sought as well.
214.
West of the Bann has been mentioned, but no one ever seems to have heard of East Antrim. Newtownabbey is the central point there. East Antrim takes in Larne and the growing borough of Carrickfergus, as well as the centre of the universe that is known locally as Ballyclare. May I suggest that you look seriously at the East Antrim/South Antrim area - a growing area where you would hear a wide variety of views.
215.
May I give Mr Burns a wee bit of advice? Most of us at the table will know that, when you hold your meetings, you should avoid the Coronation Street syndrome. If you hold them on that particular night you will find that, as we do when we canvass, people will not open their doors.
216.
Mr Burns: Man United syndrome also springs to mind.
217.
Mr Wilson: They will be out of the European Cup after the next match, anyhow so it will not matter.
218.
The Chairperson: Tempting though it is to speculate on how football teams will perform and on how popular Coronation Street undoubtedly is, we will just have to manage.
219.
Mr Wilson: One venue that has not been listed where there is quite a concentration of grammar schools is South Belfast. I notice that you have left that off the list for venues.
220.
Mr Burns: Yes. I will take on board the points made about South Belfast and East and South Antrim. The contact with pupils is also valid, and I thought that it would be a good idea to engage the universities to carry out a student, or pupil, exercise. I am sounding out whether they can do that, as I think that we have missed out on pupils and it would be worthwhile if we could address that with the present group. It is a good idea that I am anxious to pursue. It would be interesting to obtain their views, but such an exercise would need to be correctly carried out.
221.
The Chairperson: I understand that the Council for Curriculum Examination and Assessment (CCEA) has done a cohort study.
222.
Mr Burns: I am not aware of that - the CCEA is a body that I have yet to meet. It is the first on my list of people to talk to.
223.
The Chairperson: Apart from us.
224.
Mr Burns: I do beg your pardon, Mr Chairperson - apart from the Education Committee.
225.
The Chairperson: You supplied us with a list of groups that you thought might be involved in the Consultative Forum. It sounded like a round-up of the usual suspects - that is not to be unfair to any of them. What will the relationship be between the Review Body and the Consultative Forum, and how do you see it operating?
226.
Mr Burns: One has to cater for people with an interest in education. One could not possibly carry out an exercise like this without consulting the area boards and the trade unions.
227.
The Chairperson: It appears that in the public consultation they too will have the opportunity to make representation.
228.
Mr Burns: That is right.
229.
The Chairperson: They are being given a second 'hoke' at it. Is that what is envisaged?
230.
Mr Burns: I do not want to sit in an ivory tower producing a report - paper never refuses ink. I look upon these people as being the practitioners in the field. I expect that the Review Body will wish to take stock from time to time, and, at different stages, may feel that these people have come up with a suggestion, view or statement, that the Review Body would like to test.
231.
It is in that context that views would be bounced off this consultative body. If something is referred to it which is rejected with complete unanimity, we would have to go back to the drawing board to look at the issue again. Effectively, it is a sounding board. I dislike using that term, but, in practice, that is what it is.
232.
Mr Robinson: While trying to reflect as positively as we can what is happening, and what we wish would happen, in schools, you will have in the Chairman's words all the usual suspects - I wrote that down beside the list that you read out to us, but not unkindly I must add.
233.
At the launch of the Gallagher report at which you were present, I made the point that it would be a useful exercise to involve practising teachers from primary, secondary and grammar schools - people at the chalk face - who can provide a day-to-day view of the impact, benefits and drawbacks of the current process along with any possibilities for development, rather than have representation only from trades unions et cetera.
234.
Is there a mechanism for this?
235.
Mr Burns: When you say practising teacher, do you mean a primary, secondary or grammar school teacher?
236.
Mr Robinson: I do not mean a union nominee. I am a union member; others may be around the table. I mean practising teachers in primary, secondary and grammar schools, so that you have someone who works at the chalk face and who is not the nominee of another body. I do not know how you select such a person. I ask you to pursue that because one of the drawbacks we had with the CCEA and the curriculum reforms was that, quite often, the last people to be consulted were practising teachers. It was only when things started to spin out of control that someone thought of bringing teachers in to ask what was going wrong. It would certainly be helpful to have them on board from the word go.
237.
Ms Lewsley: Will there be parental representation on the Consultative Forum too? It is important that parents get involved. Pupils should be involved too, perhaps through the Youth Council or similar body. There has been the lack of parental involvement and representation on the boards. All the same faces keep appearing. I do not know how you are going to be able to do that.
238.
Mr Burns: You have more influence than I do in that. I have no influence at all on who goes on the consultative body. I did not construct it. That is a matter for the Minister.
239.
The Chairperson: This is an important point. I understood that appointing the consultative body was in your remit.
240.
Mr Burns: No. I have no role in appointing anyone.
241.
Mr Wilson: Not even the advisers?
242.
Mr Burns: No.
243.
The Chairperson: Is that all under the Minister's responsibility?
244.
Mr Burns: Yes.
245.
The Chairperson: Are you clear that you have no responsibility in that respect?
246.
Mr Burns: I am perfectly clear on that. Absolutely.
247.
The Chairperson: That is news to me. It has been presented otherwise to the Committee.
248.
Mr McVeigh: At the launch of the Gallagher Report, the press release, which was issued by the Department, mentioned that the Minister would be appointing the Consultative Forum and Education Advisers.
249.
The Chairperson: We obviously have to pursue it with the Minister. But are you absolutely clear that neither the membership of the Consultative Forum or the academics who support you in your work are your responsibility?
250.
Mr Burns: Absolutely.
251.
The Chairperson: Do you know when they will be in place?
252.
Mr Burns: I expect it to be settled before the end of this month. I fully anticipate some form of announcement about that.
253.
Mr McVeigh: From speaking to the Department on how that would be handled, I understand that the Consultative Forum will be appointed through nominations from specific interests. The invitation will come from the Department. The body may not be put in place until those nominations are returned from, for instance, the Education and Library Boards.
254.
Ms Lewsley: How many will be on the consultative body?
255.
Mr McVeigh: Sixteen.
256.
Mr Burns: Yes, 16.
257.
Mr Robinson: I want to pursue the dissemination seminar. I slipped into the back of the Belfast Education and Library Board when it was on, and I congratulate Mr McVeigh on his performance that day -it was sparkling. I was astounded by the rather muted response. I knew some of the characters sitting in front of me and I watched for the springs coming into operation, but they did not leave their seats. Will the consultative body be independent? There was a stress on independence, and you have reinforced the issue of independence to us. Would your dissemination seminars follow the same format or are you learning from seminar to seminar, and changing their format to get a bit more audience participation?
258.
Mr McVeigh: The seminars were not organised by the Review Body. We attended them for two reasons. First, to hear what was being said, and secondly, to outline the consultation arrangements for the Review. The public meetings will hopefully be more effective by having better participation. In the past, too many people held back their views.
259.
Mr Robinson: How quickly can written submissions go on the Internet? Can they be categorised in any particular form?
260.
Mr McVeigh: We are setting up from a standing start in Adelaide Street. We are finding the technology difficult to put in place. For instance, while our e-mail system can send messages to everyone, there are certain sources from which it cannot receive messages.
261.
Mr Robinson: That should be remedied as soon as possible.
262.
Mr McVeigh: Yes. Our web site is being developed, and we expect it to be up and running in the next few weeks. We will probably rely on external assistance to put agreed submissions onto the web site. Those that have been agreed for publication can go on to the web site.
263.
Mr Wilson: How do you identify people from whom you cannot receive messages?
264.
Mr McVeigh: The system is doing that for us.
265.
The Chairperson: Have you any idea of how long that will be for?
266.
Mr McVeigh: We are waiting for British Telecom and an information systems unit to sort that out. We hope that it will be very soon.
267.
Mr Burns: A day or two.
268.
Mr McVeigh: We only discovered this yesterday morning.
269.
Mr Wilson: Once you have received a written submission, how long will it take to put it onto the Internet?
270.
Mr McVeigh: About one week. We will not be involved directly in the input of submissions, so I cannot speak for how quickly others will respond. It would require using another unit to input the information. However, we would attempt to do it as quickly as possible.
271.
The Chairperson: Thank you, this public session has been very useful. We want to play an active role in the consultative process, not merely to give advice or to provide useful suggestions. We want you to share as much detail as possible with the Committee - we are not in competition with one another. This is an important subject and we all want to complement the work on it. We have a particular role and we insist on being involved. We look forward to that. There are a number of issues that we will need further clarification on. We should exchange views in this manner regularly, so that we are all properly informed and can keep abreast of what is happening and when and how it is happening. You said earlier that it would be a joyful exercise, so now let that joy be unconfined.
272.
Mr Burns: I subscribe to everything you have said. I want to ensure that we produce something of great value, and I respect and welcome the Committee's involvement. The Committee can make a significant contribution. I am grateful for your courtesy today - you may not be so nice to me when I produce a report.
273.
The Chairperson: I will make no comment on that. Thank you very much indeed.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 16 November 2000
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gallagher
>Mr Gibson
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr T Marken
Ms A Montgomery
Ms S McElhinney
433.
The Chairperson: Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. Welcome to the public session of the Education Committee. Today we are discussing post- primary education systems in Scotland and the Republic of Ireland. From the Assembly Research Department, I welcome Mr Tony Marken, Ms Alison Montgomery and Ms Sandra McElhinney. We look forward to what they have to say, and I hope there will be an opportunity at the end of the presentation for members to ask questions.
434.
Ms Montgomery: Thank you. We are to discuss the education systems in Scotland and the Republic of Ireland. I have some handouts here, which may be useful. We have illustrated the main points of each system on the buff-coloured paper and left you some space to make notes and comments in response to today's presentation. We have also provided a short briefing paper on Scotland for you to read at your leisure. Again, for the Republic of Ireland we have provided short notes, a briefing paper and a comparative table of the education systems in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This will provide information on main school phases, the types of school, transition procedures and the examinations and assessment procedures. I hope that we have provided you with enough information to consider these main issues.
435.
I will start with Scotland. Sandra McElhinney will then talk about the Republic of Ireland. We will look at four main areas of the systems, namely the structures, transition procedures between primary and post-primary levels, the qualifications and examinations which are offered and some of the pros and cons within the systems.
436.
The Scottish system is distinctive to that in the rest of the United Kingdom as a result of certain Education Acts passed pre-1996. The first Act, in 1994, established education authorities with a responsibility for school management. They devised very specific schemes of management for their schools that operate differently to those in the rest of the United Kingdom.
437.
Secondly, the education authorities also established a strong level of partnership between parents and the business community. A Parents' Charter was produced in 1991. This charter sets out the rights and responsibilities for parents. The authorities then established a technical and vocational education initiative in 1992, promoting close collaboration between business and education. Furthermore, the Scottish curriculum is based on a 5-14 system, and the curriculum covers various aspects of development and learning from the age of five right through to the age of 14. In Northern Ireland, we work through from ages 4-11, then from ages 11-16 and so on. The Scottish system is quite different from ours.
438.
It is also a more flexible qualification system that brings together vocational and academic options within the one system, with one set of exams. These are some of the main differences.
439.
There are two main types of schools in Scotland: publicly maintained schools, which do not charge fees, and independent schools which do. Primary education is from five to 12 years and there is no transfer examination when pupils move from primary to post- primary schools.
440.
Secondary education is almost entirely comprehensive - 96% of pupils attend comprehensive schools. Admission to comprehensive schools does not depend on ability or aptitude. There is no statutory curriculum, but it is important to mention that guidelines are issued by the Scottish Office Education and Industry Department and Learning and Teaching in Scotland (formerly known as the Scottish Consultative Council for the Curriculum) and the teachers use those guidelines to decide what they will teach. There are, of course, controls in place that are checked by Her Majesty's Inspectors (HMI) in Scotland, but the curriculum is not prescribed in the same way as it is in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Within secondary education, all pupils up to 16 years of age study English, maths, science, a modern European language and a social science subject such as geography or history.
441.
Moving on to the transitional phase of the Scottish educational system, the introduction of parental choice in the 1981 Education Act allowed parents to choose the school they wanted their child to attend. In most cases pupils go to the local comprehensive. Each comprehensive has a number of feeder primary schools, and most children tend to transfer to those schools. Parental choice allows parents to request that their child attend any comprehensive school, and each school has its own admissions policy and entry requirements. They could include the distance a child lives from the school and whether siblings already attend it. However, academic reasons are not accepted as a basis for a placement request. In other words, they cannot accept a child into a school because he has a particular academic ability; that is not a factor in the transfer between primary and post-primary schools. The entry point for post-primary is at 11 or 12 years of age, and some schools accept pupils on the basis of a Common Entrance Exam (CEE) at 12 or 13.
442.
Basically, if a parent chooses a school that he wants his child to attend, that school has to comply with the request within the limit of the places available in the school, and that is agreed with the local education authority. The only criterion for rejecting a pupil is if a school has filled its complement of places.
443.
We have not gone into too much detail on primary education as we are concentrating on the curriculum instead. We have really focused on the secondary system, the Scottish Certificate of Education (SCE) and then the higher education system. Briefly however, at primary level, teachers are given a chance to teach what they believe should be taught, and they measure progress against certain targets which are identified in collaboration with the SCCC and HMI. Pupils move through the schools at different rates, but most are expected to have reached a certain level by the time they are 14.
444.
I am now on page 2 of the briefing paper. The Scottish Certificate of Education, I suppose, equates with our GCSE. The SCE is designed to suit all ranges of ability, and most exams are taken at the end of year 4 - that is our year 13. Exams are taken at three levels, foundation, general or credit. That equates with the grades indicated on the sheet. Most candidates tend to take exams covering two sets of grades, for instance a credit and general or a general and foundation depending on the level of ability or aptitude. That is how they structure the Scottish Certificate. Pupils can also take additional exams at that stage that are set by the Scottish Vocational Educational Council (SCOTVEC).
445.
Currently, on completion of a Scottish Certificate at age 15, students move into S5 and S6, which are years five and six. At that level they sit the Higher exams, which are currently in transition. Until 1999 students could select four or more subjects at Higher level, which consisted of studying modules. Up to 4,000 different modules have been offered in the Scottish examination system. For example, in history there may have been modules on World War I and Scottish history - there may have been in excess of 100 modules offered in a particular subject. Students were able to select as many modules as possible to make them eligible to take that subject at Higher level.
446.
Students could elect to take a Certificate of Sixth Year Studies, which also counted as a university entrance requirement. That was the system until last year. It is currently in transition with the phasing in of the Higher Still system. Higher Still replace Highers, but the two are basically the same level.
447.
This is a unified curriculum and assessment system. This means that academic and vocational studies are taken together. Instead of selecting vocational Highers and academic Highers, students can now, within the framework of one subject, take a single exam with both vocational and academic dimensions.
448.
Higher Still operates in a single framework with five levels of difficulty, as indicated at the bottom of page 3 of the briefing paper 'Selection Procedure: Alternative Education Systems and Arrangements'. I repeat that this is a modular system, with each course split into units of 40 or 80 hours. These are all internally assessed on a pass or fail basis, as noted on page 4. As well as looking at individual subject areas, Higher Still courses also involve core skills. This is an important element of the examination, because as well as studying specific subjects, communication, numeracy, information technology and problem-solving skills are looked at. Students can complete units without following full courses. A unit in a Higher Still course can be passed by the student's teacher, a teacher from his school or a teacher from another school. Assessed class work and examination results can be combined to achieve the overall result.
449.
It is confusing on first reading. You may need to examine it in more detail yourselves. Basically it is a modular system with a series of units that make up each subject, and in constructing their Higher Still courses, students have many options available to them.
450.
In our evaluation of the Scottish education system, we have looked at a lot of information from different sources. The perceived pros and cons are outlined briefly on page 3 of the document entitled 'Scottish Education System'. One of the positive aspects of the Scottish education system is that it is more class-friendly, with less social segregation than in England and Wales. This is because the comprehensive system is more complete - it is more inclusive because more pupils select those schools. There are more opt-outs in England and Wales, with more parents choosing public schools than in Scotland. Parents mainly select comprehensive schools.
451.
Another positive aspect is that social and academic differences that exist in the system are perceived to be intra- rather than inter-school. There is greater diversity in individual schools as given pupils' backgrounds, abilities, outlooks and so forth than in schools with a more homogeneous group of pupils.
452.
Another positive point is that there are closer co-ordinating links between primary and comprehensive schools. Largely because it is a 5-14 curriculum which covers the transfer from primary to post-primary levels, pupils follow the same curriculum through until age 14 rather than stopping at 11 and starting a new dimension when they transfer.
453.
The fourth perceived positive aspect is that because most pupils transfer to the local comprehensive there is greater potential for links to develop between school and community. As most pupils attend the school in their community, there are closer links with local businesses and industry.
454.
Fifthly, the comprehensive system allows pupils greater flexibility, maintaining the opportunities and choices available to them for a longer period. Within this broadly vocational and academic structure, they are able to study right through until year 6 or so, giving them more choice at that stage.
455.
There are perceived negative aspects. The comprehensive system might imply that schools are less well equipped to stretch more able pupils because of the greater need for mixed-ability teaching. The system requires teachers to take on the challenge of addressing the pupils "at the top" and those of lower ability. They must pitch at the middle, but bring along less able pupils while still catering for the more able, and that is quite a challenge for teachers. Scottish teachers have commented on this as something they find in their daily work. It is a challenge always to pitch their teaching at every level, and this is something to bear in mind.
456.
Where a local comprehensive school gains a poor reputation, parents can make placement requests for schools elsewhere and select schools outside the area. The obvious outcome is that enrolment expands in the popular schools and contracts in the less popular. Recent press reports suggest a growing trend of affluent parents selecting private schools over comprehensive ones because they perceive that some of the comprehensive schools are not coming up to the required standard.
457.
Another problem is that as they are "comprehensive", these schools include children from every kind of background and ability, so there may be children with problems such as emotional or behavioural disorders. Therefore, a school can have children with disciplinary or behavioural problems as well as ones of lower ability. That may affect the exam performance within a school and the teaching, as teachers have to spend longer with a particular group of children. It can also affect schools' reputations. This perception of comprehensive schools is appearing in the press. Perhaps these schools are too inclusive, if being comprehensive is taken to mean having children of every kind, ability or need together in the same school.
458.
Streaming is practised in some schools on the basis of academic ability, and this reduces the potential social benefits that may arise from pupils being educated in a diverse environment. Streaming separates children into different groups, and this conflicts with the notion of comprehensive education in a diverse environment.
459.
Another problem is that to cater effectively for comprehensive teaching and the wide range of ability means that you need fairly large year groups within a school if streaming is introduced, and that creates larger schools, with the possible consequence of school closures. The Gallagher Report refers to this point that by creating larger schools, some schools may close and others merge. That is a quick overview of the Scottish system.
460.
The Chairperson: I now open the meeting for questions or points that members may wish to raise. Perhaps I may start. The publicly maintained schools and the independent schools have been described. Are there any private schools; how many are there; and is there a religious factor to education in private schools in Scotland as there is in Northern Ireland?
461.
Ms Montgomery: Yes, there are independent schools. We have been looking at that issue in detail, and it is documented on the briefing paper at the bottom of page one. It states that the official figures for 1998 were: "72 independent primary schools/ departments.62 independent secondary schools/ departments, and 33 independent special schools."
462.
Some of the independent schools in Scotland are "all through" schools, so children can enter at nursery or primary level, go right through and have their whole education in the one school. There are 32 "all through" schools, and that is the reason we mentioned departments because that word includes the "all through" schools. Around 4% of students in Scotland would attend private or independent schools, as they are known. We have looked at the independent schools' locations in Scotland and, not surprisingly, Edinburgh has a large number, twice as many as Glasgow.
463.
To answer the second part of the Chairperson's question, some of those schools are Roman Catholic schools. There is not the same division in Scotland as here on a religious basis, but there are some Roman Catholic schools, and many of these are independent.
464.
Ms Lewsley: In Northern Ireland we are academically driven, and we want to look at the vocational route. Here we have to educate employers that a vocational qualification should be recognised on the same level as an academic qualification. Is that a problem in Scotland or has it been overcome?
465.
Ms Montgomery: Scotland has the Scottish Vocational Educational Council (SCOTVEC) and the Trade and Vocational Industry Association (TVI). It has looked at the requirements of industry and endeavoured to generate courses and units within courses to meet these requirements. From the early 1990s the curriculum has been designed to go along the lines of the requirements set out by industry and to collaborate closely with industry and all kinds of bodies.
466.
The whole idea of the Higher Still system is that these qualifications are brought together in one system and value both the vocational and academic together. That is one of the main reasons for introducing the system. Scotland did have different examination and qualification routes - one being vocational and one being academic. The Higher Still system has been brought in so now pupils can do both.
467.
The short answer is that Scotland has tried to develop a close alliance with different aspects of industry, and different bodies have been set up in order to achieve that.
468.
Mrs E Bell: Within the all-ability schools do the pupils, as in our system, have a classroom assistant?
469.
Ms Montgomery: Yes, they do. They try, within their criteria, to accommodate a small number of children who can be educated in a classroom with a classroom assistant with more able-bodied children or their peers.
470.
For example, each case is judged individually, but they do accommodate children such as those with Downs Syndrome.
471.
Mrs E Bell: Does Scotland have a process for statementing? Is there not a formal policy of mainstreaming? Everything seems to be done on a very local basis.
472.
Ms Montgomery: Yes, it is. Each of the education authorities seem to have a strong hold over the management and design of its schools.
473.
Mrs E Bell: There are a number of things here which give rise to several questions. It certainly has made us very aware. Our initial reaction was that all-ability teaching is marvellous.
474.
Mr Gibson: Who sets the exams? Are they external, or are there internal school exams?
475.
Ms Montgomery: They are set by Her Majesty's Inspectorate (HMI) in collaboration with Learning and Teaching in Scotland.
476.
Mr Gibson: Does research reveal any discussion, or feelings, on mixed-ability teaching versus streaming?
477.
Ms Montgomery: We have not looked at that in a lot of detail. Much of the comment that we have seen has come from teachers within the system, and they have highlighted the main difficulties of, as I said earlier on, trying to pitch lessons at a mixed-ability range. Streaming does operate in quite a number of comprehensive schools, which is an obvious means of tackling the higher-ability, and lower-ability pupils. Perhaps we could show you some of the results in greater detail.
478.
Mr Gibson: You mentioned a number of independent schools at the bottom of page 1. Have you indicated the number of private schools?
479.
Ms Montgomery: In Scotland, "independent" means private schools.
480.
Mr Gibson: So the word "independent" includes private and grammar schools?
481.
Ms Montgomery: Yes, that is what they are known as in Scotland.
482.
Mr Gibson: Statistically, comprehensive schools have approximately what percentage of the school population?
483.
Ms Montgomery: 96%.
484.
Mr Gibson: You mentioned that there has been a move, by more affluent people, towards private education.
485.
Ms Montgomery: That is a very recent reference from the press, which suggests that more affluent, middle-class parents may be selecting the independent schools over comprehensive ones because of this all-inclusive issue. They feel that their children may not be being stretched enough, and they may not particularly want them to mix with every type of child.
486.
At the moment, it is not significant. The numbers have not increased significantly within the last four or five years. Four per cent of parents still select independent schools. There is just a perception that there may be a trend in that direction. As yet, though, we cannot find any figures to prove that at the moment.
487.
Mr Gibson: Are the universities accepting the qualifications of the Higher Still? Is there any evidence of reluctance from the vocational people, such as those in higher techs or further education, to accept modular qualifications?
488.
Ms Montgomery: The first exams are going to be taken in 2001, but we have already found some questions over the acceptance of the Higher Still. There are a number of reasons for that. Firstly, the Scottish Qualifications Authority has had a particularly difficult year because of exam marking, which you may be familiar with. With the introduction of a new set of exams, employers, industries and universities are perhaps going to be a little bit sceptical, initially, about how the Higher Still will compare with previous qualifications.
489.
So I know there is a review going on at the moment, and the Scottish Qualifications Authority and the Scottish Consultative Council on the Curriculum (SCCC) are keeping a very close eye on how the Higher Still is being implemented. I know that the Scottish Widows has raised some questions over the standard too. It really is in transition at the moment, and it remains to be seen how effective it will be in the next few years.
490.
Mr K Robinson: Obviously there is a social element as well as an educational element in our studies of this, and that is coming through quite strongly. There are successful comprehensive schools and then there are ones which are sinking and failing; obviously you have not got detailed research on that, but it is an aspect we are going to pursue. There appears to be a large degree of parental acceptance within the system. Did your research uncover any resistance? Are parents totally satisfied or are they simply using the system to move their children from less desirable comprehensive schools to more desirable ones?
491.
Ms Montgomery: By and large, parental attitudes appear to be very positive. Parents take great pride in the Scottish system and, overall, have been very satisfied. At the moment there is a perception that some parents may be becoming dissatisfied with it. If they have the option of sending their children to an independent school, there is a perception that -
492.
Mr K Robinson: Would you say that they were more ambitious rather than less satisfied?
493.
Ms Montgomery: Perhaps. Those words would not have appeared in what we have read, but perhaps they are more ambitious for their children.
494.
Mr K Robinson: Obviously parental acceptance depends, to a large degree, on accepting the professionalism of the teachers. How do you think that this aspect of comprehensive schools came through? I notice on page 4, for instance, that a class teacher confirms the pass rate when a student is doing one of the units. I can see all sorts of resistance in Northern Ireland to a class teacher's being given that responsibility and, indeed, I can see the horror of the class teacher at having that thrust upon him.
495.
Ms Montgomery This is one of the aspects of the Higher Still exam system that has yet to be confirmed and accepted. It is still in transition. Proof of that particular pudding will not emerge for another year or so until the first cohort of students actually goes through that exam. I think a lot of faith and confidence in the system is actually linked to the curriculum as well as to the teachers. As I said earlier, teachers select their topics from the Learning and Teaching in Scotland guidelines and teach to the particular needs of their class. I think parents believe that that is a positive approach to teaching. There is quite a detailed Parent's Charter in Scotland, which suggests that parents and teachers work quite closely, and there is a lot of collaboration.
496.
Mr K Robinson: Is it true to say that the professional standing of teachers in Scotland is somewhat higher than that of their counterparts in other parts of the UK and that that is for historical reasons?
497.
Ms Montgomery: Yes. Our initial research indicated that that is right. Yet we found various press reports where teachers were talking about being devalued and dissatisfied. That seems to be a tone that runs throughout teaching.
498.
Mr K Robinson: They have been involved with this curriculum?
499.
Ms Montgomery: Yes, they have worked very closely on its development.
500.
Mr S Wilson: The inclusiveness of the system appears to be exercising people's minds, about both our system and Scotland's. I notice that the Gallagher report pointed out that schools in Northern Ireland and Scotland display similar patterns of social differentiation. Although this is not completely borne out by your report, there appears to be an increasing number of reasons for some parents to choose more popular schools. Are you at odds with what Gallagher said? You indicate that, perhaps, there is more social inclusion in the Scottish system than there is in our own? How do you explain the difference between the emphasis you have and what Gallagher said in his report?
501.
Ms Montgomery: I think the Gallagher Report is looking at the system overall with the comprehensive system having 96% of pupils. There is greater social inclusivity because by and large people are staying within the system. We are suggesting that perhaps there are some chinks in that pattern. If you look at it in a little more detail, parents are, on occasion, opting not to use the local comprehensive school but to choose one elsewhere - selecting out of the local system - sometimes independent schools. We are probably confirming what Gallagher is saying in his report, but there is more to it. There are the beginnings of some changes within that and of people being dissatisfied.
502.
Mr S Wilson: One of the other concerns is about the effect of the introduction of comprehensive schools on results. I do not think that there is any dispute that, where comparisons can be made between Northern Ireland and England, when comprehensive education was introduced in England, results fell well below those here, and that goes right through to the tail.
503.
You explained the different exam system in Scotland. There is a great difficulty in comparing the two, because the exams and the means of assessment are different. Is there any research that has tried to equate the exams in Scotland and Northern Ireland and compare the academic standards?
504.
Ms Montgomery: Another difference is that pupils in Scotland take the exams a year earlier. That is another important factor. It is difficult to compare the systems as they stand, because of all the issues that you mentioned. We have not come across any research that has looked in depth at the extent to which you can compare the systems - they are so different.
505.
We do have the results that have come out of the different systems. Northern Ireland and Scotland have a much higher level of passes at GCSE and A Level or their equivalents than England or Wales. The rate of GCSE passes at grades A* to C is 83% in Scotland, 78% in Northern Ireland, 66% in Wales and 70% in England.
506.
Scotland and Northern Ireland seem to be on a par in terms of overall level of qualifications and academic ability, but we have not looked at how the systems compare in detail. It is something that we will look at further.
507.
Mr McElduff: You touched on some issues to do with the curriculum. The Scottish curriculum is less detailed, and teachers there are not subject to a common curriculum. That is deemed to be a positive thing, but are there any negatives, or perceived negatives, arising from it?
508.
Ms Montgomery: You could say that because the teacher has quite a degree of control over what is taught, the onus is on him or her to cover the curriculum and make sure that the children have as much access to it as pupils in other schools. Obviously, there has to be a degree of consistency, and HMI, Learning and Teaching in Scotland, and the Scottish Office Education and Industry Department set out quite strict guidelines. You could ask how one can be sure that every child has access to the full curriculum if it is not prescribed.
509.
The curriculum in Scotland is perceived as a very positive curriculum in Europe. There is a lot of emphasis on personal and social development, and vocational aspects as well. It has been designed very closely with teachers, and parents have also had a lot of input. From my reading of it, the only possible negative is that the teachers control it themselves within the guidelines given.
510.
Mr Gibson: The pupils' progress is measured against targets. Who sets those targets? Are they set internally by the school, or externally?
511.
Ms Montgomery: Those are external targets, set by HMI. The arrangements are currently under review.
512.
I made a mistake earlier. It is the Scottish Qualifications Authority that evaluates and marks the exams, not HMI.
513.
The Chairperson: That has been a very interesting overview of the Scottish system. We now move on to that in the neighbouring jurisdiction, namely the system in the Republic of Ireland.
514.
Ms McElhinney: I will begin by describing the structure of the school system in the Republic of Ireland. I will then move on to look at both primary and post-primary education, the form of transition that exists and the exams and qualifications, and then I will give a brief outline of the major pros and cons of the system of education in the Republic of Ireland.
515.
As is the case in Northern Ireland, the education system in the Republic of Ireland is currently under review. Compulsory schooling begins at six years and extends to 15 years of age. However, 85% of pupils of four and five years old also enrol in primary schools. The provision for education of four-and five-year olds occurs in what they term as junior infant and senior infant school. The vast majority of primary schools are state supported national schools. There are currently around 3,000 primary schools serving 500,000 children. More than 50% of schools have four or fewer teachers so you can see that there is quite a predominance of smaller schools. In addition, there are 64 private primary schools which receive no Government funding. Primary schools implement the curriculum as devised by the national Government and are subject to a state school inspectorate. The majority of children pursue an eight-year course in the national school after which they transfer at around the age of 12 to a post-primary school.
516.
The post-primary sector comprises secondary, vocational, community and comprehensive schools of which the majority are secondary, approximately 445. Secondary schools educate 60% of pupils. The majority of those are privately owned and managed. Examples of that are the convent schools and the Christian Brother schools. These are overseen by religious communities and the remainder by Boards of Governors or individuals. The state pays 95% of teachers' salaries in these schools. Vocational schools educate 26% of all post primary students and are administered by Vocational Education Committees. Up to 93% of the total cost of provision is funded. Community schools and comprehensive schools have 14% of students and are allocated individual budgets by the state. With regard to the transition process, there is no standard national test for transfer from primary schools to post-primary schools. A scheme of entrance exams is employed by some schools. Therefore, there is no streaming on the basis of academic ability upon entrance to post-primary education. The majority of children are allocated to mixed ability schools on the basis of the individual school exam. Following the Junior Certificate, they are allocated to the Leaving Certificate programme most appropriate to their ability.
517.
The post-primary curriculum consists of a three- year junior cycle followed by a two-year or three-year senior cycle. The Junior Certificate programme was introduced in 1989 to provide a single unified programme for students aged between 12 and 15 years. In September 1996, the new Junior Certificate schools programme was introduced.
518.
The senior cycle caters for pupils aged 15 to 18 years. The students normally sit the final examination, the Leaving Certificate, at the age of 17 or 18 after five or six years of post-primary education. Students may spend up to three years in the senior cycle. They can either follow a two-year Leaving Certificate programme immediately after their Junior Certificate, or they may opt to follow a transition-year programme before undertaking a two-year Leaving Certificate. I shall outline the transition-year programme in more detail. There are also different Leaving Certificate programmes, which I shall presently describe.
519.
The transition-year programme is interdisciplinary and student-centred, freeing students to take responsibility for their own learning. The programme helps them learn skills and become involved in projects and activities outside the boundaries of the certificate programmes. It is based in a non-examination environment.
520.
The Junior Certificate examination is taken at age 15, after three years in the junior cycle, and the Leaving Certificate is usually taken as a two-year programme at the end of post-primary education, when students are approximately 18 years old.
521.
A major restructuring of the senior cycle is underway, and involves four main elements. The first concern is the availability of the transition programme as an option for all second-level schools, since at the last count the transition-year programme was found to be available in only 569 schools. Other targets are the revision of the established Leaving Certificate programme, the development and expansion of the applied Leaving Certificate course, and of the vocational Leaving Certificate programme.
522.
At the last count in 1999, about 80% of students in secondary education chose to take the established Leaving Certificate. They must select five subjects, though most take seven. Options must include English, Irish, and Maths and a European language, and there are three levels - foundation, ordinary and higher - although only Irish and Maths are available at foundation level. This Leaving Certificate programme offers students the best opportunity to enter university. The revision I mentioned is being undertaken by the National Curriculum Council in the Republic of Ireland.
523.
The applied Leaving Certificate is a two-year programme of general and vocational education and training. In 1999, 3·4% of students in secondary education chose it. It replaces and expands the existing Senior Certificate and Vocational Preparation and Training Programme. It caters for those students opting not to follow an academic path, though students may proceed to many certificate courses from it. The programme consists of four half-year blocks or sessions, and the student is awarded credits at the end of each of these. The subjects which they choose build up to a package of education suitable for their further career options, whether they want to pursue an academic or a vocationally orientated career. Credits are allocated internally.
524.
The framework of the applied Leaving Certificate consists of a number of modules grouped under three headings. 30% of students' time is spent on general education consisting of life skills, arts, and social education. A further 30% is spent in vocational education, which covers subjects such as maths, technology and information technology. 25% of their time is spent on vocational preparation consisting of work experience and enterprise.
525.
It is intended that the applied Leaving Certificate will be fully integrated into the system for certification of education and training qualifications developed by TEASTAS, the Irish National Certification Authority.
526.
The Leaving Certificate Vocational Programme (LCVP) concentrates on technical subjects. As a result of the high vocational content, it attracts funding from the European Social Fund. Pupils following the LCVP in its redesigned form take five Leaving Certificate subjects in all, two of which must be chosen from a set of vocational subjects. They must also choose a recognised course in a modern European language and three mandatory link modules: enterprise education; preparation for work; and work experience. Afterwards they are assessed by a National Council for Vocational Awards (NCVA) written exam counting for 40% and a portfolio of coursework representing 60%.
527.
The final examinations for the applied and vocational programmes are different and are assessed differently. At present, most post-Leaving Certificate programmes take place in vocational schools, with awards being granted by the NCVA. For the applied and vocational programmes, there is no direct access to university through the Central Applications office (CAO) or Central Applications Services (CAS). However, pupils who opt for the applied course do more general Leaving Certificate content along with the vocational element and can therefore go directly into further education colleges where they can get a National Certificate Level II, which will allow them entry to university. It is more difficult to enter university using the vocational programme. By right, students have equal opportunity to enter university, but the three link modules they study are not yet credited. That is part of the present review.
528.
We shall move on to an overview of the system in the Republic of Ireland. Among the perceived positive aspects is the inclusion of a transition year in the school cycle after Junior Certificate, which offers pupils an opportunity to focus on personal development and explore possible career paths. During this year, they may take courses or complete projects of individual interest. In some schools, they may also have an opportunity to undertake work placements.
529.
The organisation of mixed-ability classes in secondary schools means that a diversity of pupils are educated together, although one can understand the challenges posed to those teaching such classes about which Ms Montgomery spoke earlier. In the majority of cases, pupils transfer from their primary to the local secondary school. There is therefore the potential for good relations to develop between the school and the community. Pupils have an opportunity to study a wider range of subjects at Leaving Certificate, and most choose between five and seven subjects. Pupils at A-level have a choice of between three and four subjects. The Irish system is perceived to allow students greater choice in their career paths.
530.
Negative aspects of the system include the lack of formal external assessment at primary level, making it difficult to establish national standards for pupils. This may raise questions about the consistency of levels or standards, which are identified by individual schools. The content of the transition-year programme is devised by each individual school and varies considerably. It may also vary between pupils depending on which Leaving Certificate programme they choose to follow after the transition year. There is therefore a lack of consistency across schools, and the benefits to pupils may also vary accordingly.
531.
Smaller schools may not have a sufficient range of teaching or resource facilities to offer the three different Leaving Certificate programmes. As I said earlier, there is a predominance of smaller schools in the Republic of Ireland, the reason being the traditional segregation on gender and religious lines. Some pupils may therefore experience constraints in their choices.
532.
There is a strong emphasis on written papers in examinations and assessment, and continuous assessment is rarely employed. However, the Irish authorities are attempting to address that with the use of credit accumulation. There appears to be a strong culture of tutoring, known as "grinds," particularly at Leaving Certificate level. The pressure to achieve sufficient points for university entry appears to have led to an increase in the number of students availing of "grinds".
533.
A comprehensive review of the points system and entry into university is going on at present. It has been said that the Leaving Certificate exam now seems to be another form of transition or entry into university using the points system, and the Irish authorities have looked at both the positive and negative aspects, but the review has not been completed yet.
534.
The Chairperson: How significant is the religious element? You referred to the small number of private schools. What is their basis?
535.
Ms McEIhinney: As we said, 60% of pupils are educated in schools that are privately owned and managed, the majority by religious communities. I gave the example of the convent schools and the Christian Brothers schools. They are not co-educational - it is mostly the convents which educate girls and the Christian Brothers who educate the boys.
536.
The Chairperson: Although they receive state funding, do they still retain a degree of independence?
537.
Ms McElhinney: Yes. Most of the funding is used for staffing, capital building and improvements to the school. The majority of other decisions are taken by the Board of Management or the Board of Governors. Some of the schools, as we said, are fee-paying independent schools. Catholic schools account for 9% of the total of fee-paying secondary schools, while 3% are owned by non-Catholic groups, which are mainly Protestant. Approximately 4% of all students attend fee-paying secondary schools. I feel that is probably a representative cross-section of society at large in line with the proportion of Catholics and Protestants in the country.
538.
Mr McHugh: You would almost need an education to follow all this. It is quite comprehensive and wide-ranging. This is a system we do not know much about.
539.
Ms McElhinney: It is continuously under review.
540.
Mr McHugh: Continuous review and analysis are no bad thing in any situation. The needs of education and industry have been changing every five years. That is important. Have you found anything to show that the size of schools is detrimental to the end result? They seem to be fulfilling the needs of industry. Is there anything there? Is that something we should worry about? I was quite surprised to find that there were such a large number of small schools. Of course, that is the case in rural areas.
541.
Ms McElhinney: There are pros and cons in having a preponderance of small schools. One is the pupil- teacher ratio. The fewer pupils there are per teacher, the better it is for the pupil.
542.
Ways in which the vocational aspect can be developed to meet the needs of the industry are being examined. A major review of the curriculum dealt with demographic changes and the lack of employment opportunities for pupils. As a result of the review, the Government decided that the majority of secondary education subjects in the Leaving Certificate and other programmes should contain a vocational element.
543.
Mr McElduff: What lessons can we learn about tailoring our education system to the modern economy? I have often heard this from county enterprise boards in what I shall call the Free State ¾
544.
The Chairperson: If I had used that term, there would have been a row, but you may use it. [Laughter]
545.
Mr McElduff: I have heard many variations in description -you, Chairman, referred to a "neighbouring jurisdiction", while a member from the Alliance Party, who is perhaps a Unionist, said that we share a land border with another EU country. That was stretching the description a good deal. I will choose the term "Free State".
546.
What lessons can we, in the Six Counties, learn from attempts to tailor the education system to the modern economy?
547.
Ms McElhinney: I am going to be very politically correct and say that there are lessons to be learned from every education system -
548.
The Chairperson: Geography seems to be the main lesson. Political geography at that.
549.
Ms McElhinney: It is no bad thing, as Mr McHugh said, to review ones' education system continually, and our planned procedure of looking at other countries' systems to assess their pros and cons will be very valuable. Perhaps this process will make us better informed as to the questions we should be examining, as well as informing our debate of current issues.
550.
Ms Montgomery: We were particularly interested in the concept of a transition year in the Republic of Ireland's system. On completing Junior Certificate examinations, pupils can opt to spend a year pursuing their own interests. In some schools, pupils are given the opportunity to do a project on issues of particular interest to them, or they can go on work placement. They have greater opportunities to build contacts with the industry sector to find out, for example, where they might want to move in their career or future education. That year is perceived as being very useful as pupils are given a year out from an exam-based cycle to reflect on where they might wish to go.
551.
The difficulty with the system is that provision varies a great deal between schools. Some schools have a very well co-ordinated transition year, offering all kinds of opportunities, while others do not spend as much time developing this aspect. This is one of the ideas which we felt might be applied to our system.
552.
The Leaving Certificate programme is quite complex, and pupils are still opting for the established Leaving Certificate course, which leads to university entrance. It is still difficult to encourage individuals to choose the vocational or applied approach. A very small percentage of pupils choose to take this route, but the academic option is still the most favoured.
553.
Ms McElhinney: There is evidence of this preference in the German education system, where parents and students select schools with courses which will result in the Abitur qualification and subsequent university entry. I foresee that happening in this case.
554.
Mr S Wilson: Is it entirely up to the individual to choose between the vocational and the academic route, or does the school apply its influence or operate a selection process? The vocational route is sometimes regarded as being second-class, as we discovered when we examined criticisms of our own system. You have also confirmed that this is the case in the Republic of Ireland.
555.
If a student has chosen one route and finds it is not the route he wishes to go being either unable to cope with it or having changed his mind halfway through - is there any mechanism which allows him to change direction?
556.
Ms McElhinney: I shall deal with your first question, which asks about influences on the choice of programmes. When students initially enter secondary school they are allocated to mixed ability classes. There are no influences regarding the programme to which they proceed after the junior cycle. Allocation to different programmes occurs at the beginning of the senior cycle. There are summer and Christmas exams each year, allowing schools to monitor the progress of students, although this is not externally standardised. Schools therefore have a good idea of their pupils' abilities and aptitudes, which are discussed with parents and students. A student can choose the programme he wishes to pursue. There are influences on pupils from parents and schools to choose one or other course, but no formal pressures.
557.
In relation to the second part of your question, there are three levels - foundation, ordinary and higher. Foundation level is only available in Irish and Maths. The majority of students who choose to pursue the academic route would attempt the higher papers. If students choose a higher paper and find during the course of the two-year Leaving Certificate programme that it is too difficult, they can choose the ordinary paper in the examination. That is how proceeding through levels is addressed.
558.
Mr Gibson: Could I clarify if the teaching of mixed ability students to the age of 16 is compulsory? Is it statutory or can it be avoided?
559.
Ms Montgomery: It is more or less accepted practice.
560.
Ms McElhinney: It seems to be a dual system. There are mixed-ability classes, but after the Junior Certificate and at the beginning of the Senior Certificate, students are allocated to programmes.
561.
Mr Gibson: After the Junior Certificate came the mixed classes.
562.
Ms McElhinney: Yes.
563.
Mr Gibson: Can we go through this so I am absolutely clear? As regards academic study, 80% of students choose the established Leaving Certificate. The Celtic Tiger is allegedly built on the 3.5% of students who take the applied Leaving Certificate, which is the vocational route. With present demographic trends, this 3.5% could represent a large number.
564.
Ms Montgomery: These systems are still being introduced.
565.
Ms McElhinney: It is a phased introduction.
566.
Ms Montgomery: They have not been introduced in all schools. The majority of schools may currently be offering only the established Leaving Certificate, and the figures indicate that 80% of pupils are taking this examination. They may not have introduced the applied or vocational Leaving Certificate. Those figures are very recent.
567.
Mr Gibson: What is the maximum number of pupils taking the vocational Leaving Certificate?
568.
Ms Montgomery: It is 10,000 pupils.
569.
Mr Gibson: That is 15% or less.
570.
Universities seem to be balking from accepting some of these certificates.
571.
Ms McElhinney: Yes. However, at present this is under review, and TEASTAS, the Irish National Certification Authority, is reviewing the applied and the vocational programmes. The review focuses especially on the vocational programme, as some of the subjects on it - specifically the link modules - are not credited, leaving some pupils at a disadvantage when it comes to entry into further and higher education.
572.
Mr Gibson: Are "grinds" very popular? Is it true that roughly 80% of the student population go through "grinds"?
573.
Ms McElhinney: I do not have an actual figure and did not come across one but from anecdotal evidence it would seem that the majority of students feel the need to have extra tutoring. It also appears that the majority of students pursue the academic route, and they go and have these "grinds" in order to raise their points level.
574.
Mr Gibson: Are there alternatives to further education equivalent to higher techs?
575.
Ms McElhinney: In Ireland, school leavers may proceed to a series of further education colleges. There are Regional Technical Colleges, Institutes of Technology and four streaming courses for which the majority of students would be paid a training supplement. There are also apprenticeship schemes available, and Youth Reach is a scheme which allows students who opt out of the formal education system to receive training and classes.
576.
Mrs E Bell: I have strong reservations about such a culture of tutoring, for it is definitely discriminatory, and -as we have said - a question of haves and have-nots. Many people have been talking about the later stages, but I am concerned about primary level. There seems to be no formal preparation in primary for the next stages. Surely that must discriminate against or put pressure on some students. What is the parental influence on that?
577.
Ms Montgomery: There is not a culture of external assessment at primary at all. The first time pupils experience an externally marked exam is their Junior Certificate, at age 15. They are obviously assessed internally in school exams, but there is no formal assessment in primary schools.
578.
Mrs E Bell: In primary school there are some tests.
579.
Ms McElhinney: They have internal, twice-yearly exams, assessed by the teachers themselves. Students' progress is tracked, but not in the formal or standardised way.
580.
Mr Gallagher: Thank you for both those papers. Tutoring seems to be done by private colleges, certainly in Dublin and Galway, and I am sure elsewhere. Do you have any information on the extent of that? I notice there is one here in Belfast, Bruce College, an offshoot of the one in Dublin.
581.
Ms McElhinney: There are private colleges. With the changes in the Leaving Certificate, there seems to have been an increase in the number of private colleges offering tutoring and the opportunity to re-sit the Leaving Certificate. Rather than choosing a course in the higher and further education system, many students are taking the second option and choosing to enter a private college for a year, like Bruce College, or the School of Commerce in Cork. In one or two larger urban areas, they are choosing to take a year to re-sit their Leaving Certificate examinations to increase their points level and enter their chosen course.
582.
The Chairperson: Thank you on behalf of the Committee for your excellent presentation. If members have any additional research they would like carried out, they should notify the Committee Clerk.
583.
Ms Montgomery: Mr Chairman, I know that the Committee has plenty of paper already, but I should like to leave this comparative table, we have drawn up for you. It will take the Committee through each stage in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. We hope the Committee will find it useful.
584.
The Chairperson: Thank you.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 30 November 2000
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Gibson
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Ms A Montgomery)Assembly Researchers
Ms S McElhinney)
274.
The Chairperson: Good morning everyone. This morning, we are going to consider evidence from the Assembly researchers, who will give us a presentation on post-primary education in Europe, including the German, the French, and the Scandinavian systems.
275.
Ms Montgomery: This morning, Ms McElhinney and I are going to associate Austria with Germany, because the two systems are quite similar, as well as France with Italy, because their systems are also similar. We have provided short briefing papers with space for notes and a comparative table of the education systems in those four countries. We will also focus on Sweden as a Scandinavian country. It is very different, however, as we have shown in the briefing paper.
276.
Many of these education systems are presently going through some reforms, so some of the findings that we are presenting today should be treated cautiously. Some of the reforms were introduced in the early '90s, while some are currently being introduced, so there are many changes and fluxes within the systems.
277.
Within Germany, you may be aware that a federal system of government exists, which means that each Land is autonomous in its educational and cultural affairs. In accordance with the constitutions in the Länder, the education system is the responsibility of the Länder Ministeries of Education, Cultural Affairs and Science. It is difficult to generalise with Germany. During the process of researching the country, we found that it is very difficult to draw one single conclusion, because there are so many variations between the Länder, and the regions in the north, south, east and west.
278.
Education is compulsory from the ages of six to 15, after which students can continue their education on a full-time or part-time basis. The part-time basis is particularly useful, because some students may go into training or take up an occupation and continue their education while working. The four main phases within the education system are the pre-compulsory, the primary, lower-secondary and upper-secondary. In the primary school phase, the children attend the Grundschulen, which exist for the first four or six years of compulsory education. Again, there is much differentiation between the different Länder, and children can start school at the age of six and finish at 10 or indeed go on until 12. In the primary school, there is no formal examination until the third grade.
279.
Children do not undertake any written exams until they go into third year. When teachers give feedback on report cards, they tend to give only positive comments, which is quite an interesting point. They believe that in primary schools it is more beneficial for children to receive positive feedback, and teachers do not write negative comments on report forms.
280.
Homework is important in primary schools, as it is throughout the system, and teachers encourage children to take homework seriously and set a lot of it. At lower-secondary level various paths are open to pupils. First is the Gymnasium. This provides full-time general education for students from 10 or 11. This is basically an academically-oriented education process that is a prerequisite for university entrance. There are different kinds of Gymnasium. The curriculum can involve classical or modern languages, arts programmes and biological or physical science. The main exam taken in the Gymnasium would be the Abitur - the leaving examination - and this gives students the opportunity to enter university. The figure of 30% for pupils attending a Gymnasium should be treated with caution. Collecting national statistics is difficult, as there is variation, not just between regions, but between cities and rural areas. So those are tentative statistics.
281.
The second type of school is the Realschule. This provides education for students aged between 10 and 12, transferring from Grundschulen. It is popular because it stresses maths, science and modern languages, as well as offering numerous vocational courses. It has been perceived as offering education between the Hauptschule (the next school we are going to talk about) and the Gymnasium - between a basic school education and a "grammar" type education. Again figures are tentative, but approximately 27% of pupils attend a Realschule.
282.
A Hauptschule provides a basic general education. Programmes are geared strongly towards apprenticeships, but special components are included to prepare students for later careers, and they still do a foreign language. Over recent decades, as more and more jobs require higher levels of education, this type of secondary school has become less popular, and some now regard it as a school for second-class citizens. Germany has a lot of immigrants from eastern Europe, and research shows that they attend a Hauptschulen. They were formerly known as all-encompassing schools for everyone, but that has changed over the years.
283.
Current figures show that around 24% of pupils attend this type of school. However, it is different in the cities - the figures for Hamburg and Berlin are only 6% or 7% - and so it is difficult to say exactly how many pupils attend this type of school nationally.
284.
The fourth type of school is the Gesamtschule, which is a full-day comprehensive school that offers homework supervision, back-up courses and a range of other extra-curricular activities. A Gesamtschule offers disparate courses leading to a variety of qualifications, so you can study almost everything that is studied in a Realschule and a Gymnasium at a Gesamtschule. However, it is not a particularly popular choice, and only around 9% of pupils attend this sort of school. Generally speaking, parents tend to prefer the lower- secondary school to the comprehensive school.
285.
At the end of this period - around the age of 15 - students can go on to choose an upper-secondary school. The first type there is the Gymnasiale Oberstufe, which provides a general education for young people, prepares them for the Abitur and takes them towards university entrance. The second type of school - and I have not listed them all in German - offers vocational education and training, and other schools offer a more general kind of education as well as vocational courses. Education continues in the Gymnasium until 18 or 19, and in a Realschule until 16, when pupils transfer to this upper-secondary section of their education.
286.
Between the different Länder in Germany there is a lot of variation in the transition process from primary to secondary. In most Länder the type of secondary school a pupil attends is determined by his academic achievement at primary school, his teacher's view of his academic potential and his parents' wishes.
287.
In central and southern Germany the decision is based on a teacher's recommendation and a specific grade point average - however, parents make the final decision. There are no set criteria for admission to a Realschule, and entrance to a Gymnasium is based on student grade - generally ones and twos. In Germany there is a grading system from one to six, one being the top mark. The Germans also look at the likelihood of a pupil's pursuing good work habits, behaving well and having parental support. It is slightly different in south- western Germany. Fourth grade pupils take a centrally devised exam in German and mathematics, and the results determine which school a pupil will transfer to. There are one or two issues about that, which I may come back to in the commentary - some of the difficulties posed by that particular transition system.
288.
For the transition between lower-secondary and upper-secondary schools - from Hauptschule, Gesamtschule, Gymnasium or Realschule to the upper- secondary streams of the gymnasiale Oberstufe and the other vocational and training courses in schools - admission is granted as follows:
(i)Students at a Gymnasium or Gesamtschule who have reached required standards can move in to a gymnasiale Oberstufe at the end of Year 10;
(ii) Students who have obtained a Realschuleabschluß, a leaving certificate with a certain level of merit, can also transfer to a gymnasiale Oberstufe; and
(iii) Students who have obtained approved qualifications from full-time vocational schools can also transfer.
289.
The gymnasiale Oberstufe route is really the one for university.
290.
A Hauptschule leaving certificate allows students to transfer to vocational training. Some vocational training schools, such as biochemistry or information technology, may require a Realschule leaving certificate, so they place slightly higher demands on students. To summarise, in the central states there tends to be guidelines issued to teachers and they tend to administer a lot of the exams within the schools. In the southern states it is more centrally administered and there is a closer control of what teachers are actually doing.
291.
I will cover briefly the examinations and qualifications actually on offer within the schools. In a Realschule pupils can choose a series of different option groups - maths and natural science, economics courses or art, music and design. The final exams are set centrally by the relevant Land Ministry. The figures for Bavaria in 1991 - the most recent we were able to find - showed that 94% of pupils were acquiring a Realschule certificate. When they have completed those exams at the age of 16 they can transfer to a Gymnasium via preparatory classes for an entrance examination or go on to vocational education.
292.
At the end of 1994 1·4% were transferring to a Gymnasium from a Realschule, 68% were going into vocational training and the remainder were going to other kinds of vocational schools or to a Fachoberschule, which offers studies in specific subjects like music or art.
293.
School leaving certificates in a Gymnasium include the upper-secondary entrance certificate - the Oberstufenriefe - and the general entrance certificate, which is the Abitur exam and allows them into university. The Abitur is the most well known exam throughout Germany and the one most often mentioned in research. For this, students are examined in four subjects, not unlike our A level exams. Two are taken at an advanced level and one must be taken as an oral exam. They are administered by teachers in the central Länder and by the Ministry in the southern regions.
294.
There are variations between different Länder in the examinations. For example, Bavaria is perceived to place a premium on rigorous academic selection because the Abitur is set centrally so there is a widespread belief that it is more demanding in Bavaria than it is in other states. That is really an overview of examinations and qualifications.
295.
In 1966, 14% of students went to universities throughout Germany. That figure in 1996 was 41%, so there has been a considerable increase in the number of students going to universities. Is the Abitur too simple? Is it too easy? Are too many students getting through this exam? Should it be more difficult? - those are some of the questions that have been raised. Another issue for universities is that they still offer free education by paying students' fees, and they are under some pressure to cater for the vast number of students who are now entering them.
296.
The German system is tailored to meet the needs of a greater variety of students. That is quite clear from going through all the different routes, the different examinations and the different types of school. Secondly, a broad curriculum is sustained for the post-16 pupils in both the academic and vocational courses. So even if you are going on to train in mechanical engineering or catering, you will still take on science, maths and a foreign language at least half way through your education. The system does have a considerable degree of flexibility, and pupils can move between different schools at different stages. Research suggests that that has become slightly more difficult in recent years. It may not be just as simple to move and certainly, because there are differences within the Länder, it may be easier in some parts of the country to do that than in others.
297.
Science and maths are strongly emphasised across all types of schools, which means that a considerable number of well-qualified students emerge in engineering and technology. Many of the lower-secondary schools are providing an increasing range of academic options by instituting a two-year orientation period that enables pupils, even those who are lower attainers, to remain in step with the vast technological and social changes and also gives them greater opportunity to access a Gymnasium.
298.
In many schools pupils are given an introduction to the working world, including work placements, and often that is compulsory. So even if you are going along an academic track, you still have an opportunity to have a work placement at some stage in your schooling.
299.
Finally, the Government regularly update the training regulations for almost 400 recognised trade and professional programmes which are offered through the technical and vocational schools. It is an important factor in the success of the education and training programmes that there is such a strong partnership between schools, employers, trade unions and the federal Government.
300.
There are also less positive aspects of the system. At primary school level there have been complaints from teachers that they have too little control over the development of the curriculum and that the teachers who are developing the curriculum are somewhat out of touch with schools, so they are asking for a little bit more control and autonomy over what they teach. Secondly, the grading system, which I referred to yesterday, has been commented on again by teachers in a negative way. They have suggested that it is too general and imprecise; that a pupil gains one, two, three, four, five or six and that each of these numbers specifies something. There is not really a very differentiated grading system; it is quite basic in some senses.
301.
I mentioned earlier that there are problems with the system of transfer. Figures have shown that in the central Länder, during one particular academic year, almost 30% of students who attended a Realschule or a Gymnasium did so against their teachers' advice. I said earlier that the actual transition from primary to post- primary school depends on a number of issues and that one of the most important is the parental perspective, the parents' view of what they want their children to go on to do.
302.
One third of those children who changed schools had to change to another school after one semester because the schools were not suitable for them. There are many variations in state procedures which allow parents to push children into a Gymnasium. There are reports from teachers that not all Gymnasium students are able to cope with the academic demands and that some would be better suited to Realschule education.
303.
In an increasingly competitive job market, pupils and parents believe that the Abitur guarantees a greater selection of highly paid academic and vocational opportunities, and so entrance to a Gymnasium is a preferred route in many regions.
304.
Lastly, the decisions on a student's future career are made in some Länder at a fairly early age. Some teachers and parents believe the tracking process occurs too early and that late bloomers are at a disadvantage. That is basically Germany in a nutshell. [Laughter]
305.
The Chairperson: Hardly a nutshell.
306.
Ms Montgomery: A very big nutshell.
307.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms Montgomery. Do members have any quick questions?
308.
Mr K Robinson: The thing that has always puzzled me about the German system is the opportunity for parental choice and it seems, from what you have said, that it has been abused recently and that parents are pushing their children. To a large degree this has been one of the problems we have had in Northern Ireland. Teachers are suggesting that it is better for a child to go in a certain direction, but parents are pushing their children elsewhere - sometimes with disastrous results down the line. You have obviously come across that in the German system too. Is that the reason the Germans are looking at reforming it?
309.
Ms Montgomery: It is certainly a factor in the system's review. There is a problem in that parents now perceive a Gymnasium as the sort of school to go to. This is not dissimilar, in many ways, from the perception of a grammar school here. The difference here is that our selection system is more structured. Children do not complete any kind of examination in any of the Länder, although some Germans are introducing an exam in the southern Länder in maths, German and English at the fourth grade.
310.
Mr K Robinson: They are relying on teacher assessment to a large degree? The teacher is being pressurised which means the profession is being pressurised by parental demands, and not always the proper demands sometimes.
311.
Ms Montgomery: I was surprised at those figures being so high that 30% of students are finding that they are not in the right school. It is very like Northern Ireland in the sense that the grammar school is perceived as the school to head for.
312.
Mr K Robinson: There is a social aspect to it as well as an educational one?
313.
Mr McElduff: One of the points that jumped out at me was the perceived failure of parental decision making in this matter. May I hear a bit more about the two-year orientation period, which is listed in the perceived positives?
314.
Ms Montgomery: This is something that has been brought in in the last two or three years. Basically whenever students are moving into the vocational-type schools, either a Realschule or a Hauptschule, there is a perception that has obviously increased throughout the country, that the children going to a Gymnasium are better placed to take the Abitur and go to university. The purpose of the orientation period is that they are trying to open up access to universities and say "Look, just because you have come into vocational-type education does not mean that a university is now ruled out". They are trying to broaden access to academic learning at that stage so that they maintain a broader education for a longer period.
315.
I wonder too - and this is my perspective of it - if there is not some sense in some schools that if you did not get to a Gymnasium, you have not made it, as it were. I do not have a lot of research to back that up, but I am thinking about our situation here. Perhaps there is some perception of that in Germany since more and more parents are pushing children whatever way they can to get into a Gymnasium. Because there are so many variations within the country, parents have moved from one Land to another where the Abitur is easier. Their children will be more likely to get the Abitur and so get into university.
316.
Mr S Wilson: It is nice to know that the attempts to standardise examinations in the UK have overcome some of the discrepancies that you have mentioned.
317.
First, it appears that even though there has been an attempt - for example, through parental choice - to try to give equal status to all of the different systems or routes that youngsters can go to, it has not been successful. The Gymnasium route appears to be the one which parents, at least, perceive to be better.
318.
You have said that one third of the people who go to a Gymnasium go there against the wishes of the teachers and that about 10% - therefore, one third of the third - eventually fall out within the first semester. Is that a voluntary thing, or is there a mechanism by which the school advises them that they are not on the right route?
319.
Ms Montgomery: It is probably a combination of those. While it is not very widely documented in the research, there is much variation within the different Länder. Parental wishes are very important in Germany. They seem to direct and exert quite a degree of control over what happens.
320.
Probably a teacher would approach the parents and say that the child was not doing well enough in the school, and they would come to some arrangement about a shift. Perhaps an additional comment is made like "OK, you have to move from a Gymnasium to a Realschule. That does not rule university out; maybe you will get there by another route".
321.
Mr S Wilson: Is there movement the other way from a Realschule to a Gymnasium?
322.
Ms Montgomery: Very little - there are a few figures that suggest some movement in that direction. We have more figures for Austria which suggest that the systems are quite similar in that way.
323.
Ms Lewsley: Is it an issue of oversubscription for schools in the same way as our grammar schools are oversubscribed? What happens there?
324.
Ms Montgomery: There is free and open education for all children, and if you want your child to go to the local Gymnasium, you apply. The only thing that would stop a child getting in is a numbers' limitation.
325.
Ms Lewsley: What happens then?
326.
Ms Montgomery: He is directed to another Gymnasium - presumably there are more then one in an area, or one may have to travel. It is not documented much in any of the evidence we found. We could look at that in more detail, but anything I have come across has suggested that the child would then go to the next nearest Gymnasium.
327.
Mr Gibson: You said that the southern Länder have a very rigid curriculum that seems to have a negative connotation - what is the reason for that? In your research, have you looked at the end results of universities and other qualifications? Does that bear a relation to the population, or is it related more to Bavaria, to BMW where you go for a technical world with good pay - a guaranteed job where they will educate you further?
328.
Ms Montgomery: In response to your second question, I have given you numbers of children attending a Hauptschule in the cities, and the figure is very low. A Hauptschule provides a broad, general education which leads to apprenticeships. In the cities there is not the same level of industry. For example, children are not moving into rural-related apprenticeships such as farming. Therefore, they are not pursuing education in a Hauptschule - they are going for a Gymnasium that will take them into university and to the professions.
329.
So, it is definitely related to the different areas, and, as you have said, with Bavaria BMW is one example. A Realschule and a Hauptschule may be more popular options because such industries exist and the vocational training is as useful. I did not meant to imply that the southern Länder, which have a rigid curriculum, are any more negative. It was just a perception.
330.
Mr K Robinson: In the southern states, there is a religious connotation. Bavaria feels itself to be not quite German, and it is an historically Catholic area. It is very strictly controlled as a result of that. It is not negative, it is historical.
331.
The Chairperson: We are now going to get on the bus - metaphorically speaking, of course - and we are going to go the short distance over to the land of Maria von Trapp and others and look at Austria.
332.
Ms Montgomery: I will not sing.
333.
The Chairperson: The hills are alive. My recollection is that it was mostly nuns who sang. Christopher Plummer certainly could not.
334.
Mr Gibson: And some young children.
335.
Ms Montgomery: I will not labour Austria to the same extent as Germany. I will try to highlight some of the main differences between the two systems. They are very similar. They both have the differentiated secondary system. All children attend the Volkschulen, which are really equivalent to the Grundschulen, and they then progress to different types of upper-secondary schooling. The one main difference between Germany and Austria is that the federal Government in Vienna carry the main responsibility for the curriculum, and the BundesLänder have responsibility for school regulations. Unlike most countries, Austrian school law is part of the constitution, so any changes in the system require a two thirds vote in Parliament. Any changes or reforms have to be thought out very carefully to gain the two thirds vote at the highest level.
336.
Pupils again attend a Volkschule, a primary school, for four years from the age of six. They then go on either to a Hauptschule, which is a lower secondary school, or to the first cycle of the general secondary school. I gave you the full name earlier, but its abbreviation is the AHS.
337.
Mr S Wilson: Say it.
338.
Ms Montgomery: Unterstufe der allgemeinbildenden höhren Schule.
339.
The Chairperson: The Deputy Chairperson is in some debt to you.
340.
Ms Montgomery: A Hauptschule is a lower secondary school, very similar to the Hauptschule and the Realschule in the German system. The purpose is to equip pupils with a general education to prepare them to proceed into post-compulsory education. Pupils are streamed for German, maths and a foreign language, and the performance level expected of the top stream is equivalent to that of pupils in the first cycle of the general secondary education, the AHS. There are only two school types.
341.
Again, the figures really should be treated with caution because they vary throughout the country, but approximate 70% of pupils attend Hauptschulen. In the larger cities the figure can be as low as 30%, so perhaps some of the reasons we discussed in earlier questions feature in the difference.
342.
A general secondary school is required to provide pupils with a broad-based education, and there are three types of the AHS. A Gymnasium offers a broad general education. A Realgymnasium is a technical school, and a wirtschaftkundliches Realgymnasium offers commercial education. Again - and these are very tentative figures - 30% attend this type of school. In the cities, the figure could be approximately 70%. For the first two years, the curriculum is identical so all pupils follow the same type of education until their third year. After their fourth year at the Hauptschulen, or the AHS, they choose what they are going to do next. That could be pre-vocational, secondary technical, vocational colleges, childcare or nursery teacher training colleges, or a general upper-secondary level college. The last of those is probably identified as the academic route. Pupils at the Austrian general secondary schools (AHS) can also continue within their schools and go to the second cycle. Therefore, there are two types of academic routes - in the AHS or in the general upper secondary colleges.
343.
It is interesting to note that figures (Kern 1998) estimate that there are many more pupils in technical and vocational colleges than there are in the upper level of the AHS. In Austria, the figures certainly suggest that there is still a lot of emphasis on the technical and vocational route and on attendance at those colleges.
344.
With regard to the transition process, the admission requirement from a primary school (Volkschule) to a Hauptschule and the AHS is based on the successful completion of the fourth grade. However, a slightly higher attainment mark is required for the AHS, which is the academic route.
345.
The decision on the type of education to which a pupil is to proceed is usually taken one year before completion of compulsory education, at 15 or 16. An analysis of intake rates in the first year of any sector of upper secondary education indicates that considerable shifts take place. For example, one set of figures showed that 27% of all pupils starting apprenticeships came directly from the AHS - the "academic" route - and secondary technical and vocational colleges. The remainder came mainly from pre-vocational schools.
346.
It is quite interesting to see that a rather high percentage of pupils coming from an academic route or a technical vocational route go into apprenticeships. They do not all come from the pre-vocational, apprenticeship route.
347.
The transfer profile illustrates the degree of movement between different schools, and it will give you some idea about the kind of routes that students take. For the year 1995/96, in the first year of the second level of general secondary education 71% of pupils transferred from the AHS; 19% came from a Hauptschule, the lower secondary education (LSE). In the first year of vocational upper secondary schools (BHS), 64% of pupils came from the LSE and 23% came from the first cycle of the AHS, which is really intermediate.
348.
In the first year of the vocational intermediate school, 77% of pupils came from the slower route - i.e. the LSE. In the first year of the pre-vocational course, most children come from the lower secondary educational route (95%), and in the first year of apprenticeships, there is much greater mix, since there are students coming from all types of different schools.
349.
In 1995, 65% of pupils who completed their first cycle of lower secondary education in the AHS system transferred to the upper route. Twenty eight per cent of the pupils who completed their first cycle of lower secondary education in a Hauptschule, which is less academic, transferred to a vocational course. Some 47% went into vocational studies and only 7% transferred to the academic route. I am going to ask Ms McElhinney to read the rest of this because I am losing my voice. I apologise to the Committee.
350.
The Chairperson: Ms Montgomery, we appreciate it and we thank you for making the effort to come to make that presentation. It has been excellent and the content is first class.
351.
Ms McElhinney: With regard to examinations and qualifications, teachers are responsible for all assessments. These determine whether a pupil is entitled to enter the next year. As in Germany, the final marks awarded are frequently marks from final examinations combined with school work or school examinations. Matriculation examination certificates are offered in the AHS and higher technical and vocational colleges.
352.
The federal Government are responsible for the curriculum. Final or qualifying examinations are conducted by examination boards. Examinations are more or less uniform nationwide to ensure comparable qualification standards. Compulsory education is up to 15 or 16 years in Austria and up to 18 years in Germany. Vocational education is very highly differentiated. In addition to general education, pupils undergo an occupation related foundation course and acquire the ability to carry out specific occupational activities. This ability gives them access to regulated occupations.
353.
Like other countries, Austria is already tending to grant greater autonomy to schools and other education and training institutions with a view to enabling them to gear their product and its contents better to the preferences and requirements of their clientele. The expansion of autonomy is a necessary pre-requisite for improving co-operation between education and training providers and others in the labour market.
354.
The Chairperson: Does anyone have a question on Austria?
355.
Mr S Wilson: Is the apprenticeship route different from the pre-vocational, secondary technical, childcare or upper general secondary college routes, or does it follow them?
356.
Ms Montgomery: It is one of the pre-vocational schools. A range of different apprenticeship based schooling is offered through them.
357.
The Chairperson: We shall now move on to France.
358.
Ms McElhinney: I shall go through this as quickly as possible. The French education system was decentralised in 1982 - 1983 with the decision to transfer certain powers and responsibilities to local authorities. That decision affected how the education system was subsequently regulated and organised.
359.
Public education in France caters for over 80% of pupils, and the private sector caters for 17%. Private sector schools tend to be Catholic and have signed contracts with the state. This means that they must adhere to the national timetable and curriculum applied in public-sector education and be subject to state supervision.
360.
Decentralisation means that several Ministries are involved in the education system. The Minister for National Education, who deals with schools, and the Minister for Higher Education and Research are the two main Ministers involved. However, other Ministries, such as Agriculture, which looks after vocational training in the agriculture sector, and the Ministry of Vocation and Training, which looks after other aspects of vocational training, are also involved.
361.
As a result of decentralisation, each sector also has a different regulator. Primary schools are regulated by what are known as Communes, which are local government bodies, while collèges, lower secondary schools are regulated by départments, which have dual functions in that they are representative both of local authorities and the state, and lycées, the upper secondary schools, are regulated by the regions.
362.
Compulsory education starts at the age of six and ends at 16. Like Germany, there are four main phases of education. The first phase is that of nursery or pre-school provision and is not compulsory. Although it is optional, 99% of children aged three attend some form of pre-school group. The second phase is that of elementary education - or primary, as we would call it - catering for children aged six to 11. The third phase is lower secondary, catering for young people aged 11 to 15. The fourth phase is upper secondary and caters for those aged 15 to 18. I shall cover the second phase in more detail.
363.
The second phase is organised and administered by the Communes. State-funded primary schools are compulsory, co-educational, free of charge, and secular. School places are allocated strictly on a geographical basis, but some parents may request a preferred option from their local mayor. They may want their child to go to a particular type of school or to one offering a particular subject. They must ask their local mayor and also the mayor of the region where the school they wish the child to attend is situated.
364.
The Chairperson: The people of France will be heartened that they do not have Mr Wilson as mayor. [Laughter]
365.
Ms McElhinney: No comment.
366.
Elementary schools usually comprise five year groups divided into two cycles. The first is the basic learning cycle, which has a common standard curriculum throughout. The final three years of elementary schooling are called the consolidation cycle. That also covers the common curriculum, but it affords the opportunity to study a foreign language. The only real differences between the two cycles are timetabling and the allocation of time to specific subjects.
367.
There is no elementary school leaving examination for pupils in publicly funded schools. However, pupils from private schools may have to sit an entrance examination to enter college at about age 12.
368.
In secondary education, both lower and upper, classes are numbered downwards from six, which is called sixième, to one, première, and the final year baccalauréat studies are called terminale.
369.
Let us look at lower secondary education, which caters for children aged 11 to 15. It is organised and administered, as I said earlier, by the départments. The education is free, co-educational and secular. It begins in comprehensive institutions known as collèges, which admit all students for the first four years of compulsory lower secondary education. The first year, or sixième, completes the transition from primary school to post-primary education. Therefore, although a child is in the lower secondary sector, it has one full year to complete the transition from primary to secondary school.
370.
Education is general, but there are some specialist options such as sport, bilingual, international and European colléges, so parents can select a specific school offering specialist subjects and courses. At the end of lower secondary education, after the third year, each district offers students a choice between a general and technological lycée (LEGT) and a vocational lycée (LP). Admission is usually automatic on completion of lower secondary education in collèges. However, the same does not apply to students attending private school, who may have to sit an entrance exam to transfer to upper secondary school.
371.
Education is organised in three cycles, like the two cycles we saw in the lower secondary. They are called orientation, consolidation, and observation and adaptation. The main one is the final class in lower secondary school, which is known as the third, or troisième. In that year, students make their choices regarding the courses they wish to study and the qualifications they desire.
372.
Upper secondary school caters for children from ages 15 to 18. It is organised and administered by the region, and only the first year - the second class of upper secondary school - is compulsory. Lower secondary college leavers usually attend a lycée in their own school district, unless the family opts for private education or a private school that specialises in a particular type of course.
373.
There are three years in upper secondary school - third, fourth and fifth. They are called seconde, première and terminale. Seconde is the first year of upper secondary education when students are usually around age 15, and is known as the determination cycle. At the end of that year, pupils choose a course to follow or select specialist subjects. In première, which is the second year of upper secondary school, and terminale, which is the third year, both optional classes prepare pupils for the baccalauréat or specialist courses. The baccalauréat is generally equivalent to the first year of university and is the key to university admission.
374.
We shall move on to the transition process. Generally, normal attendance at elementary schools is the only criterion necessary for promotion to the first class of secondary school. At the end of lower secondary school, each district offers students the choice of a general and technological lycée or a vocational lycée when they leave lower secondary after the troisième class. Admission is usually automatic on completion of collège education. Private students, however, may have to sit an entrance exam to transfer to upper secondary. The entire admission procedure is carried out by officials at the regional educational headquarters, and there is generally no participation from head teachers.
375.
With regard to exams and qualifications, in the year before the end of compulsory education, the national certificate, the diplome national du brevet, is awarded to all pupils. Pupils' results from years four and three are taken into account for this award. The National Certificate is not really a key to admission. It is a certificate of education, but not a prerequisite for a pupil's future educational career. It does not determine where a student goes next. Particular schools are for particular courses and qualifications or for subject specialisms. In upper secondary, the general and technological lycée offers the general baccalauréat, of which there are three types - literary, economic and social and scientific. It also offers the technical certificate or the secondary school leaving certificate. Those who do not pass the baccalauréat are given a secondary school leaving certificate and, as part of their assessment and examinations, pupils throughout lower and upper secondary are given reports each term. Every pupil has a book of marks, and at the end of the year a mark is written in the book for each subject. It is not really a prerequisite for their final exams, but a form of continuous assessment so that parents and teachers can monitor the pupils. There are also many contacts and meetings, and regular parent-teacher meetings are held. Marks at the end of the fourth and third years are noted on the school report. Those are also noted on the national certificate, but it is not a pass-or-fail system if too few marks are awarded. Generally, however, it is perceived as a credit point system. Eight out of 20 points in the report book are necessary for a pupil to get the secondary school leaving certificate if he or she has not passed the baccalauréat.
376.
The vocational lycée offers the vocational baccalauréat, which is primarily a vocational integration certificate leading directly to an occupation. It also entitles the holder to enter university, which is an important point.
377.
The vocational study certificate confers the vocational qualification of a skilled worker or employee. The vocational aptitude certificate is designed to provide a qualification to exercise an occupation. The baccalauréat is required for admission to higher education and includes both compulsory and optional subjects for examinations. In 1996, 56% of pupils gaining the bac were awarded the general version, and 28% of those achieved the technological vocational bac.
378.
The first year of secondary education in the French system provides the pupil with a year-long period of transition from primary to secondary. Pupils also have a year-long period at the start of upper secondary education in which to decide the appropriate track to follow. Immature children, or those who are intellectually late bloomers, may benefit from this. If parents do not favour local lycées they may encourage a child to select a subject which is not offered at a local school. If they do not like their local school, and it is not offering a particular subject such as Latin, but the school they like is offering that subject, they may pressurise the child and the teacher to put that child in for Latin, almost ensuring the child will go to the preferred school. Parents may participate at all levels and, as I said, they have a system where they have continuous parent-teacher meetings.
379.
Their role is of an advisory, rather than decision- making nature, although they are also becoming increasingly involved in that. There is also the question of how impartial parents can be regarding the abilities of their own children, and how a child should progress in its future education. Both the LEGT (general and technological lycée) and the LP (vocational lycée) provide qualification routes suitable for university entrants, and since both of them provide qualifications suitable for university entrants, this positive certification does not discourage vocational participation.
380.
In 1993, a law was passed called the "five-year- law" concerning work, employment and vocational training. It underlines the particular responsibility of the national education service to assure integration into working life and establish the principle that every young person must be given the opportunity to take up vocational training before they leave school so they recognise the importance of vocational training. Having vocational training is part of the education system, and if a person chooses a vocational option, they still have the option of entering university by sitting a vocational baccalauréat.
381.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much indeed, Ms McElhinney. Are there any questions or points? How do you feel about allowing a pupil a year of transition from primary to secondary? Do children undertake tests and various other things during that year?
382.
Ms McElhinney: I am not sure. As far as I am aware, there are no specific tests, but they rely heavily on continuous monitoring of the children. It is good for children who are late learners, or who have not decided which track they will take. They also have a chance to make decisions on the track they will take in the first year of upper secondary. Very often, there are pressures on parents and students to make quick decisions, and I feel that those two years are a positive aspect.
383.
The Chairperson: There are no questions?
384.
Mr K Robinson: How is the teacher actually perceived by the parent and the system in France? Are they freer agents than they appear to be in the German and Austrian systems?
385.
Ms McElhinney: In the Italian system, they have legislated for teacher autonomy, despite their common curriculum, and the teachers can tailor the curriculum and subjects to the pupil. However, I am not sure whether this is also the case in France.
386.
Mr K Robinson: The French are generally very centralised. Everything is handed down from Paris. How much regional difference would the teacher be able to reflect?
387.
Ms Montgomery: It is hard to say from the information we have at the moment. They have different kinds of controls and so on, so even though it is a centralised system, it can become decentralised.
388.
Mr K Robinson: So we can reflect that?
389.
The Chairperson: We want to look at the Italian and Swedish models. Purely in the interests of time, which is in no way a criticism of your excellent presentation, could we perhaps concentrate in both the final commentary sections, since members have already the earlier details?
390.
Ms Elhinney: Italy has the same system in that it has four levels - pre-compulsory, primary and post-primary lower and upper secondary. At the end of primary school, there is a school leaving certificate examination at 11 years. Access to all forms of secondary is dependent on obtaining the lower secondary leaving certificate at 14. All students must pass the state examination to gain access to university and further education.
391.
The maturia is the upper school leaving certificate. It consists of two compulsory written papers, an Italian language paper and a paper on a studied subject. There is also a multi-disciplinary oral examination. The role of the state, through the Ministry of Education, specifies only generalised aims and objectives: detailed but non- prescriptive content and a common format for recording children's achievements. Primary schools' curricula are planned locally. The process relies heavily on local teacher decision making, not only for its quality but also its pace. There are no national or local testing arrangements or school performance tables. However, there is direct accountability to parents.
392.
One can envisage inequalities in the Italian system. Not only is there variation in teachers' abilities, but parents are not always best qualified to judge the criteria that constitute a good education. While 94% of pupils go on to post-compulsory education, 15% to 30% drop out. In an effort to combat this, it has been declared that the age for compulsory education is to be increased to 18. Only 98% of the 65% of all pupils who sit the maturia or the upper secondary leaving certificate pass. Italy has recognised the growing need for changes to take into account new demands from industry and business. For that reason, since 1988 vocational education has been part of an assisted experimental programme called 'Progetto `92', which means 'Programme `92'. The policy of renewal has been well received, gaining recognition, and has been adopted for general use. Importance is therefore being placed on vocational and educational training.
393.
In September 2001, there will be many new educational reforms. One reform is that the scuola elementare, which is the primary school, and the scuola media, which is the lower secondary, will become one cycle. It is hard to determine the main effects, but we foresee major restructuring of the education system. The increase in the compulsory school age to 18 will also require major restructuring in the education and vocational training systems.
394.
Italy is the same as France in that, from September 1999, changes in the length of compulsory education have meant that students will have to enrol in secondary schools. The last year of the new education period coincides with the first year of secondary education. The reform aims to reduce the high rates of school leavers.
395.
The Chairperson: Italy is already changing in that it appears to be moving to a primary school system that will carry it right through to the secondary age of about 14.
396.
Ms McElhinney: The age is six to 15.
397.
The Chairperson: Perhaps we might now move on to Sweden.
398.
Ms Montgomery: The reason for highlighting Sweden is that it has a different structure with an all-through primary and lower secondary system, then an upper secondary system. Children attend the grundskola from age seven to sixteen, and there are many different types of school in Sweden. Perhaps one of the interesting things in the system is that it caters for all kinds of children. Often in the same schools, special needs children are put in with children who have hearing or visual difficulties. There is a school with an ethnic emphasis for the Sami people of northern Sweden.
399.
A child attends school from seven to 16 and then transfers to upper secondary education at the gymnasieskola. This system has been going through a great deal of reform since 1991. A new national curriculum was introduced in 1994, and the three-year period of education at the gymnasieskola was introduced in 1995 - 1996. It is a comprehensive system at that level, and students can start school up to the age of 20, if they wish to return to education.
400.
The transition process is reasonably straightforward. All municipalities must offer places to all pupils. In principle, all students have the right to attend their first option school. In practice it may not always be possible, because there are caps on the numbers they are allowed to take. If a school cannot offer them a place, they go to the nearest school in the local authority.
401.
A new system of examinations and qualifications is coming in. There are reforms in the marking system, and the new National Agency for Education determines the criteria for passes in national courses. For local courses, the same grades are determined by an education board, so there is a slight difference. The first national tests were administered in 1998 to year nine pupils. On completing that at the age of 15, they receive a leaving certificate.
402.
Interestingly, at the end of post-compulsory education - which we might regard as the A-level stage - there is no examination. Pupils are assessed on each course they take, so the criteria for awarding marks are specified in the syllabuses. Twenty-five per cent of students progress to higher education, where they can either follow programmes of study or specific subjects.
403.
The former education system had a very high drop-out rate. We suspect that was largely because it was a differentiated rather than a comprehensive upper education system. There was some element of selection. We believe that the introduction of the comprehensive upper secondary education system is credited with cutting the drop-out rate.
404.
The new programme provides students with significant influence over content and methods. They can take 16 different courses when they get to the upper level. Two of those lead directly to university entrance, while the others are vocational. There is a food programme, a mechanical engineering programme and a travel programme - that is the way they are worded in the document. Two programmes, namely, social science and natural science, lead to university more directly than the others.
405.
The various municipalities have greater responsibility for schooling and staffing since the changes. Interestingly, in higher education, apart from general degrees, there are 50 specifically professionally oriented diplomas recognised by the Government. For example, if one wishes to be a doctor one does not necessarily have to do a medical degree. One would be recognised after doing a diploma - I presume that, for a doctor, it takes at least five years - and then go on to train further. It is another way of going into the profession.
406.
Mr S Wilson: Do not get sick in Sweden.
407.
Ms Montgomery: It is a very quick overview. The main difference is that a different system operates from primary to secondary. Pupils are in one school right through from age seven to 16 something which has positive and negative implications. It is positive that teachers know pupils very well, seeing them through almost their entire education. They would perhaps know their positive and negative qualities and be able to recognise what route would be best for them.
408.
I am not sure whether teachers focus on subject specialisms or take core classes the whole way through. We need to look at whether they take a class right through or have subject specialisms like a secondary school.
409.
Mr K Robinson: Unfortunately, we cannot do your presentation justice, since there is so much in it. Looking at your research, are the systems well financed in each country, or is there great variation? Sweden has a great deal of money to invest, whereas Italy probably does not and fragments its distribution.
410.
Ms Montgomery: I agree that Sweden has a great deal of money. However, considering their integrated, equal opportunity schools where children in the class may require one-on-one help, it is incredible the extent to which they attempt to include all children in the same classroom. Teachers can also attend special pedagogical courses in special needs. They may have special needs support in the class, and there are all kinds of funding implications. Even the facilities in the school must be paid. I imagine some of the Italian reforms are also funding linked.
411.
The Chairperson: It may be useful to have the comparative expenditure tabled.
412.
Mr S Wilson: Regarding the drop-out rates in Sweden, how much research was done into the explanation for the lower drop-out rate? It has happened over a short time, and changes in their economic circumstances, such as higher unemployment, and reforms to their social-security system may have affected the figures. Is that a mere impression, or was there actual research?
413.
Ms Montgomery: Much of it consists of impressions. The difficulty is that the countries themselves produce most of the documents, and obviously they are presented in a glowing way. We need further research into all these education systems to get more critical analysis. We bore that in mind when comparing these reports, and it is something we shall look at.
414.
Mr McElduff: At the public meeting in Omagh, there was a schoolteacher who actually taught my mother. She was teaching in 1948, and there she was in 2000 with views seen as being the way forward. She said that pupils should be able to remain at primary level longer if they felt it necessary.
415.
Secondly, if pupils fail to achieve the necessary pass in every subject, no grade is awarded. In our system that would do away with the U at GCSE - A, B, C pass and then D, E and U - U would not be very good for one's confidence.
416.
Ms Montgomery: Our research saw that as a positive thing. Rather than recording a failure, they do not give any grade. I am not sure how they represent that, but they leave it blank rather than put a U. The parents go back to the teacher, point out that their child did not get a grade, and ask for a written assessment, so that they have something for each year.
417.
Mr McElduff: I do not think there is much value in saying D, E or U.
418.
Ms McElhinney: I want to comment on the age of children in primary school. I attended a meeting in Coleraine - indeed someone has requested that we give a brief overview of it - where the issue arose of how long children should remain at primary school. It was suggested that children should remain in primary school until they are 14. First, a female teacher and parent felt that there was a gender issue, since females would be at an advantage, so that needed to be considered. Secondly, another parent and teacher said that keeping children in primary school would be detrimental to them, since they are more open to learning at a younger age, and it is better to get them into secondary school. I make no judgement on either of those, but the question of primary school leaving age is a multi-faceted issue.
419.
Mr Gibson: You have had a quick look through all the systems in Western Europe. Which system do you feel least comfortable with?
420.
Ms McElhinney: The main thing that struck me was the proposal in the Italian system to increase the age limit for compulsory education to 18. That is questionable, since it poses a great many problems, such as the restructuring of all the school sectors and systems from pre-compulsory up, and the restructuring of training and vocational provision and university entrance. That is a very big issue and I am sure a decision would not be taken lightly, but if we were to consider it, there would be many implications.
421.
The other item that struck me was an issue we mentioned earlier - the two years of transition at the beginning of primary and upper secondary. I felt that those were beneficial to some students, parents and teachers who were undecided about the track they should take.
422.
Ms Montgomery: From the outside, the German and Austrian system seems very positive in that the system is differentiated, and certainly the theory is that each student is regarded equally, whether he goes to the vocational, technical or academic sector. In practice, however, parents are pushing their children towards the Gymnasium or grammar school, and a selective element enters the equation.
423.
The Swedish system is interesting. However, to change schools and extend them right through to 16 would mean a major overhaul in the system. There would also be a huge number of training implications. Since this new comprehensive upper secondary has just been introduced, we do not yet know how effective it will be. It has only been introduced within the last few years, so it is hard to say. The Italian and French system are not dissimilar from the Craigavon scheme, in that they use a delayed system of transfer. The danger is that there are two different types of school, and the whole issue of transfer is merely delayed. The transition procedure is central.
424.
When you look at all these systems, the crucial question is: what does society value? Is it academia, vocational training or technical training? If all the structures within the system are set towards the academic route because we value university degrees above the others, the system is only a reflection of what is important to society.
425.
Ms McElhinney: In the French system, the baccalauréat gives students the opportunity to obtain entry into university at both academic and vocational level. This struck me as positive in that it does not discriminate against those pupils who prefer or are suited to a vocational option. In France, legislation is in place providing for a vocational strand and for teacher autonomy in schools. In my opinion, this is very positive, since alongside a common curriculum and standards which must be achieved there is the chance for teachers to tailor the curriculum and subjects to the needs of the pupils. It is a positive aspect that they would consider, especially in the light of the Council for the Curriculum Examination and Assessment, meeting the needs of industry. I believe it could be looked at further.
426.
Ms Lewsley: Did you see the Swedish system, which I have also seen in Italy, of all-inclusiveness, even with special needs children, as an advantage or disadvantage?
427.
Ms Montgomery: In terms of socialising children to the needs of others and creating greater awareness of an individual child's particular needs, it has been regarded very positively. The Swedish system is held up as an example in that regard. Children from all walks of life with all kinds of problems are brought together in one school. One of the issues we have not been able to look at in great detail is the impact it may have on ability - does it hold a class back if one has to cater for a range of needs? The research so far does not suggest this. The Swedish pupils do not seem to be emerging with lower exam marks or to have a lower level of attainment.
428.
From the social perspective, of awareness and even the gelling together of society, it must be regarded positively. I imagine the implications for the teacher are much more wide-ranging, having to cater for such a differentiated class group.
429.
Mr McHugh: In relation to what the parents drive pupils towards and the fact that some pupils are more suited to vocational or academic options, how well are they suited to industrial or world needs with the drive towards grammar education? People in industry would say we are in many instances not fulfilling their needs.
430.
Ms Montgomery: Germany and Austria have a system with a very strong partnership between schools, trade unions, training facility leaders, training providers and the Government. Perhaps the one thing to say about all the systems is that on paper at least, they still open up the university option to all pupils in a much more positive way than ours.
431.
The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I thank both Ms McElhinney and Ms Montgomery for their excellent presentation today. It was very detailed, and you have very considerable knowledge of all of the systems. We are grateful you shared that expertise with us. Thank you.
432.
It might be useful if you could provide the Committee with a written impression of the public meeting you attended. That matter is with the Clerk.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 February 2001
Members present:
r Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gallagher
Mr Gibson
Ms Lewsley
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr J Martin) Western Education and Library Board
Mr J Fitzsimons)South Eastern Educationand Library Board
Mr D Cargo) Belfast Education and Library Board
Mr G Topping) North Eastern Education and Library Board
585.
The Chairperson: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I am pleased to welcome on behalf of the Committee Mr Martin from the Western Education and Library Board, Mr Cargo from the Belfast Education and Library Board, Mr Fitzsimons from the South Eastern Education and Library Board and Mr Topping from the North Eastern Education and Library Board. The witnesses will speak about the main points of their submissions, and will then answer questions from Members. We look forward to a useful exchange of views.
586.
I remind Members that this is public session, which will be reported by Hansard. Today's minutes of evidence will form part of the Education Committee's overall submission to Mr Gerry Burns's Review Body.
587.
Mr Martin: Thank you for the invitation to address the Committee. We thought that it would be helpful, for the record, to read our covering letter, which sets out the background and the context in which we wish to make our comments.
588.
It is important to emphasise at the beginning that each of the boards is an independent body with defined statutory responsibilities for its own area. Each board has, therefore, prepared its own response, taking into account the individual circumstances in each area. The Committee invited us to prepare a common submission. For that reason, we attempted to collate the common features of the boards' responses, and our paper outlines those. We want to emphasise, however, that a collective response such as this cannot reflect the complexity of all the issues involved. That was why we sent the Committee, in addition, copies of the individual responses.
589.
We considered it important to re-emphasise the concluding statement in the Gallagher and Smith report, although it has been repeated many times. It forms the background against which the whole debate should take place. It says that
"A debate that simply revolves around school structures may unduly narrow the terms of the discussion, encourage the inaccurate view that significant problems are easily solved and lose sight of the broader purposes of education. The starting point for discussion ought to be the social, educational and economic objectives young people should achieve from their educational experience. Then the education structure that seems best placed to provide these ends can be determined."
I emphasise the importance of that last point.
590.
We also felt that it was important to take account of the socio-economic context and of the wider context in which the education system will be required to operate in the 21st century. Although this debate is about post-primary education, we felt that the post- primary phase could not be considered in isolation but as an integral part of a lifelong formative process, through which every individual should be enabled to develop his or her talents to the full and to realise his or her creative potential.
591.
Those points were in our covering letter, but there are a few others. The first is that we attempted to collate the boards' responses which were produced in a very short time. The debate is evolving, therefore the responses cannot be regarded as representing our definitive positions.
592.
The context in which the debate is to take place is vitally important. How children learn, how the brain works, the centrality of the learner are key issues in the debate. The pace of change, globalisation and the implications of the technological revolution are also important issues. We tried to focus on the centrality of the learner, and we felt that it was important to promote debate in our own areas on learning in the twenty-first century because it is only when we have reached agreement on that issue that we can provide the structures that will allow learning to take place.
593.
The Committee will want to question us on various elements, now that we have provided you with the background to our submission.
594.
The Chairperson: Thank you. Members will have questions to ask; I shall start. How difficult was it for the education and library boards to rattle out something to which they could all put their signature?
595.
Mr Martin: Each board - each contributor to the debate - had difficulty with producing a response. It is a complex issue, and a lot of minds have wrestled with it. Given that each board has 35 members, it is difficult to get consensus. However, the degree of consensus reached in each board around key issues in the report has been impressive. In particular, there was a great deal of agreement on the context of change, the difficulties surrounding the present selective system, and the need to tackle that issue.
596.
When we collated our responses, we focused on the issues on which we felt that there was commonality. Because we focused on key principles, that consensus is reflected in this paper. As the debate proceeds, people will see that the boards, who are, we think, reflecting, as best they can, the views that have been expressed, have a great many views in common in relation to certain issues. Other issues may be more difficult, but what we sent to the Committee represents a common view of the key principles that should inform the debate.
597.
The Chairperson: I want to ask each of you for your view on the most appropriate post-primary selection system for your own area. I am not trying to divide you; I just want to know how difficult the issue is from each board's perspective. That would be of interest to the Committee.
598.
Mr Topping: I shall elaborate on what Mr Martin has said. It was quite difficult getting consensus in our board. It was easy to get consensus on the principles, on the context and on the present system. The difficulty arose from the question of how we should replace that system, to make the education service more responsive to the needs of the individual child.
599.
Our board gave two different reactions in our response. The first was that we would like to see the present system replaced with a non-selective system, and that was the majority view. The timescale that was available to us meant that we were unable to discuss what would replace it. That is important; we had only a couple of months over Christmas, so it was difficult to move beyond getting a consensus.
600.
There was a minority view that the current selection system should be replaced with one similar to the German model, which is a different form of selection. My understanding of the German system is that it involves parents, teachers and the individual child.
601.
Mr Cargo: It might be useful if I picked up some of the issues that Mr Martin raised, as Mr Topping did. My board was keen to pick up on the paragraph from the Gallagher and Smith report that Mr Martin read out. It deals with the need to be clear about purpose. As the Committee will note, the Belfast Education and Library Board has produced an interim response. Part of the reason for that is that we are still consulting.
602.
The Committee will be aware that Belfast's urban environment is somewhat different to other board areas. There is a large number of schools of varying kinds with no natural catchment area sitting adjacent to each other. In some ways, parents and children in the city already have a much wider choice than young people in other areas of the Province. That is a strength of the current system, but it can create a difficulty when it comes to reaching a consensus, because there are very well developed models for integrated schools, Irish-medium schools, voluntary schools and non-selective schools. There is a wide range of high quality provision in the area. The Board believes that any process of change must be an evolutionary one that reflects the needs of the young people in a changing city.
603.
Therefore, we should go back and ask what the key purposes of education in the twenty-first century are. We need to build in the concept that the learner will make the key decisions about his or her learning. This is a different approach to that taken by others, but it works for the board at the minute. It is also starting to generate a debate that will finish with a degree of consensus, although we are unsure about how much consensus there will be. We hope to have a better feel for that answer at the end of next month after the consultation exercise. At that stage, it will be possible to make a further response to the Review Body, outlining the level of consensus.
604.
In our response, we state that there are fundamental issues that we need to sort out. First, who exercises choice and who is in control of it? Schools are obviously in control of choice in the current system. The paper suggests that we might move to a situation where young people are in control of their own learning and the choices that they can make - that has implications. Secondly, there is a challenge for all of us to develop an inclusive system in a pluralist society. Board members are keen to explore that issue with everyone. Finally, what achievements are we trying to measure in the context of lifelong learning? I emphasise what Mr Martin said; there is a danger that we will focus on one transition point in a life-long process. There are other major transition points, all of which are important: between pre-school and early years; from secondary- level education to tertiary-level education; and from education to the world of work. The board was eager to explore the concept of transition. That puts the transfer debate into a more holistic context. That is important. There is a danger that fiddling with just one part of the structure will not develop the system or enable it to evolve in a holistic way to the benefit of the young people. That is the current position of our board. It seems to be developing the debate and achieving a degree of consensus.
605.
Mr Martin: The Western Board, like Mr Cargo's, did not focus on structures. We felt that if we could get the key principles and objectives right, in the context set out in the last paragraph of the Gallagher and Smith Report, the structures would not present a great difficulty. Our report enjoyed almost unanimous support; there was just one dissenting voice. We agreed that there should be transfer at the age of 11 without selection, a core curriculum at Key Stage 3 and a core curriculum with a variety of pathways at Key Stage 4. It is important to recognise the variety of learning styles and levels of intelligence. Parity of esteem between the sectors misleadingly called "academic" and "vocational" is necessary, and that esteem should cover the whole range of intelligence levels.
606.
We were also conscious that the board was responsible for a predominantly rural area albeit one that contained some urban areas. We felt that if we could get the principles right, we would be able to develop structures that would take account of the strengths of existing provision and provide for the needs of the individual learner. We are conscious that there is a major transition going on in the maintained sector in Strabane. That will be flexible enough to suit any outcome. There are also serious discussions taking place in the controlled sector in Omagh about a different way forward. Such models can be considered, and we will eventually come up with a varied provision. Although it may be delivered through different structures, such provision will ensure a common entitlement for each pupil that will be transferable, regardless of where an individual pupil lives.
607.
Mr Fitzsimons: We reached total consensus in our submission. To achieve that, we went with board members and principals to visit schools in Scotland and Wales, as well as Craigavon. We also brought someone in to talk about the Germany system. We saw advantages and disadvantages in the other systems, and we were doubtful whether they could be fitted into the Northern Ireland context. However, we agreed that the current system of selection at the age of 11 should be abolished as soon as possible. We said that that should happen no later than 2003. We realised that the extent of the review would determine whether that date was acceptable, but we felt that a date should be established for the abolition of the current selection system.
608.
The present system is flawed, and it has an adverse impact on the psychological, emotional and developmental needs of children. Any new system should determine what we want to do, before we put a structure in place. We need to work out what type of education system we want, and this debate gives us the opportunity to look more widely at the issue. We want to reduce the long tail of failure among children leaving our schools system, but we realise that, to achieve that, we also have to attend to early years education and concentrate on that.
609.
We have to ensure that the curriculum offered from year 1 to year 10 - Key Stages 2 and 3 - is appropriate to the needs of the children. There should be a common curriculum. At that stage children should be helped to make choices. We need to develop an education system that is appropriate to their aptitudes and abilities and to their career aspirations. The review of the curriculum by the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment presents an opportunity for that. That review needs to be completed before any decision is made about the future structure of education. From year 11 onwards, there should be a range of opportunities for young people to pursue academic or vocational education, or a combination of both. If, for example, young people want to excel in the arts or sport, there should be a specialist provision to allow them to develop those skills.
610.
Tests should no longer be age-related. One of the things that we saw and liked in the Scottish system was that assessment took place at the point of readiness. People do not go forward for a driving test until there is a reasonable chance that they will pass it. Too many youngsters in schools go in for tests that everyone knows they will fail. That is de-motivating. Education and learning must be enjoyable, so there must be success. Education cannot be a system in which children fail continually. There should also be a credit accumulation and transfer system. Children will do particular studies and then change to something else. They should get credit for what they have done and be able to carry that with them wherever they go.
611.
Whatever we do in the future, we need to keep what is good in our education system. It is only when we go abroad that we realise that there are many positive aspects in our education system. We can agree that there are good principles and values. However, this is the beginning of a debate on education. It is the first opportunity in Northern Ireland to debate the type of education that we want for our children. We should not shortcut or curtail it, nor arrive at solutions that do not meet our needs.
612.
Mr Gibson: The presentation was a significant one. Looking at what the Gallagher and Smith report said about the socio-economic agenda and at what is happening, I wonder whether the debate is moving too fast towards the idea that structures must be devised. Has someone already decided on a structure that will be the future of education.
613.
Mr Martin's initial point was that we have not fully thought out our objectives for the beginning of the twenty- first century. We have not taken into account questions about how people learn. The debate is moving too fast. We have already proceeded into a debate on structures, about whether it should be one or the other. That is what the debate is about.
614.
Chief executives should provide leadership and try to slow things up. We should look at what we are trying to achieve, because we could arrive at a situation that is worse than the present one. We seem to be imposing a new set of structures without having thoroughly thought about no parent or child will forgive us if we end up with a system that does not deliver better. Is anyone looking at how we can do better than we are doing at the moment? I am delighted to hear that people are starting to widen their horizons.
615.
Mr Martin: Mr Gibson said that we were moving too fast. If we look around us, the rate of change in the world in which we operate is exponential; it is quite unbelievable. Technological capabilities will have an effect on the learning process. Young and old will be able to learn anywhere, anytime, and that will have an important knock-on effect on the education process. We must be careful about where we are going. At the same time, we cannot put a debate such as this on the long finger. We need to make sure that our debate is well informed about the needs of children, but we are in danger of being left behind if we postpone the conclusion to the debate for three or four years. I do not believe that we have moved towards a debate on structures. We believe that we must get the other things right, we cannot delay attempts to get the basic principles right.
616.
Mr Gibson: It has been assumed that the provider of education will be the state, which has been the provider for the past hundred years. That may not be the case in this fast-moving IT world. Will structures not become irrelevant?
617.
Mr Topping: Mr Gibson has pointed out a real danger. We need to get it right and not just get it out; the important thing is getting it right. That is not to say that we should not have the debate. However, the developments that are taking place - particularly in ICT - are massive, and they will have a significant impact on how we deliver education. The North Eastern Board believes - probably all four of us believe - that we need to be flexible about the solution that is reached. A solution for, say, Omagh may not be the solution for Ballymena; a solution for Belfast may not be a solution for Coleraine. We need to be flexible. What is important to find is what works, improves our system and encourages higher levels of achievement.
618.
Mr Cargo: I shall pick up on the issue of providers. Currently, all our Boards are exploring the whole concept of alternative provision for 14 to 19-year-olds. NVQs are delivered off-site to increasing numbers of young people, in partnership with industry or other training organisations. Ultimately, those will have an impact on the shape of the education system.
619.
At the moment, all five boards are considering the possibility of establishing a Northern Ireland virtual school for young people who are not currently attending any institution. Over the next five years, we will see a range of alternative models for delivering lifelong learning. All our debates show that it is important for us not to jump immediately into a simplistic debate about structures - important as that is - and that we take a holistic view. Ultimately, we need an education service that delivers excellence and allows us to contribute to the economic well-being and future development of Northern Ireland.
620.
Mrs E Bell: I was pleased by what I read in the synopsis and the submissions. It is correct that there should be flexibility. The education system has changed a great deal from when the 11-plus was simply a matter of selection. With all the different types of school we must get the basic principles right.
621.
We have all examined different school systems. We have also been to Germany to do so. However, what hit us - I was going to say impressed - more than anything was how German children depend on the principal's report from their Grundschule or primary school - their elementary school - to go on to their respective second levels. That selection takes place at about 10, and the children enter classes of about 30. How would that translate here? As Mr Fitzsimons said, we have strengths in our system, with high standards of academic attainment. How can we keep that, but also address the long tail of low achievement in all areas? Will that also be in the boards' submissions?
622.
Mr Fitzsimons: We have certainly examined the German system, where much is left to the choice of parents on the advice of the principal. However, there is parity of esteem in Germany between vocational and academic education. We do not have that.
623.
We must recognise the strengths of our present education system. We have some brilliant teachers. Admittedly, some teachers are tired, but many are highly committed. However, we have problems with the relevance of the curriculum for many young people. We need to recognise also that boys and girls develop at a different rate. They reach maturity at different times - some people say boys never mature, but that is frivolous. There is a serious point about levels of maturity. Assessment and progression should not necessarily take place according to age but should be a matter of ability, maturity and aptitude.
624.
Most people have different learning preferences, and we must accept that some learn by listening and others by reading or doing. Many people fall into the last category. Mr Cargo referred to alternative provision, and we find that some young people do not learn in a school context. However, an industrial situation that delivers some of the learning can be just as effective.
625.
The matter is urgent. Many young people are failing, and system cannot cope. There must be change. Demographic trends are changing and pupil enrolment is falling. Mixed-ability pupil groups go to grammar school. In our board area, 50% of children went to grammar schools last year. That does not mean that they all got 'A's, but they went to grammar schools. Change is happening, anyway, but we must control it. Most importantly, we cannot change just part of the system. If we change the middle, but fail to do anything about early years or further and higher education we will only be tinkering. The danger is that we could end up with a bit of a mishmash.
626.
Mr McHugh: You mentioned that you looked at the German and Scottish systems. Was there any reason for not examining the Irish system? They have a fast growing economy that needs considerable flexibility. We will need flexibility to deal with a competitive economy. Our workforce needs may not be met locally in the years ahead, and we may have to look to Europe. With regard to the curriculum, certain industries may claim that we are not delivering the skills. In Germany, the academic schools do not emphasise the need for new-age learning. Instead, they provide the academic learning that we have always used and simply dealt with other issues as they came up. Are there any weaknesses in the present review?
627.
Mr Fitzsimons: Each of the boards has links with the vocational education committees in the South of Ireland. We have regular meetings with them. We are attracted by the transition year, in which prior to doing Leaving Certificate, students take a year out for personal and social development, placement in industry or project work, such as working with social services. If it is done well - that depends on the co-ordinator - it is a tremendous opportunity for young people to mature, to think about their future and improve their motivation. In some schools, it has a dramatic effect on results in Leaving Certificate. However, we did not examine practice in the Republic.
628.
Mr Martin: We are aware of the high educational achievement in the South, but there is the issue of early school leaving. The South of Ireland faces the same problem with a long tail of low achievers. Their structures are not coping with that. As with all other systems, theirs has strengths and weaknesses.
629.
We do not want to comment on whether there are any weaknesses in the review group. However, there are people there with wide experience of other systems. The review group intends to take a detailed look at other systems, so as to reach conclusions about their strengths and weaknesses. Although they have not necessarily come to any conclusions, their examination of such matters - including the practices across the border - will guide and inform them.
630.
Mr McHugh: Are there gaps in the review itself, rather than just in the group?
631.
Mr Cargo: Comparators are useful for informing other education systems. To re-emphasise Mr Martin's point, every system has its strengths and weaknesses. The Belfast Education and Library Board is keen to develop a system that works for the young people in the city. In doing so, there are issues such as the high rates of teenage pregnancy, substance abuse, low achievement, and absenteeism. At the other end of the spectrum there is a demand for higher levels of achievement from those considered to be accelerated learners - including those at the other end of the spectrum. We must examine the needs of our young people in the context of the environment in which they live. It is important that young people are part of the debate, because they have a better picture of this issue than we do. We have experience of the past and are bringing our experience of that past to this issue. When you talk to 16 to 17 year olds, many of them have an interesting insight regarding their futures, and the sort of futures that they need to develop. That is an important aspect for us to take on board.
632.
The Chairperson: As regards possible gaps in the review - and this is not a criticism of Mr Burns or his review body - it is argued that what is under consideration has now moved on.
633.
From the way the debate has started it looks as if it needs to expand to other areas such as nursery education and further and higher education. Does anybody have a view on that? We are not being critical. Please understand that the Committee is not conducting a witch-hunt on Gerry Burns or the Review Body. We are simply asking if the debate has moved on so much that it has outgrown the review's original constraints?
634.
Mr Fitzsimons: That is what we have been saying. The review is a good thing. It is absolutely essential that we start a review of the entire education system, and this presents the opportunity for doing so. You can be quite pragmatic or you can devise structures and thus create mayhem. There must be a wide debate on education, and I think it has started. People are starting to talk about education in ways they have never talked about it before.
635.
An opportunity exists to get it right, and the process is there to make it right. The problem is that a balance must be struck on how long it will take to achieve that, bearing in mind that a tranche of young people will leave the education system being regarded as failures and without having a happy experience of it. We owe it to them to get it right as quickly as possible, but not at the expense of creating mayhem or ending up with a system that is worse than the current one. There must be an improvement.
636.
Mr Cargo: One thing that definitely comes out of the Belfast Education and Library Board's response - and perhaps from all our responses - is that early years are the foundation of education for young people. If you think about the education system in a lifetime context, the period between nought to six-years-old is one area in which we do not have a practice under- pinned by an education philosophy.
637.
Our philosophy has got to be to prepare children for education in the years prior to school. That has been absent from the debate to date. From a Belfast perspective, I see many children arriving in school at the age of five almost destined to fail. We suggest that the nought to six-year-old age ranges should be viewed as a key foundation period in which young children can develop core skills and start to take control of their learning. There would also be transition pathways and they could be based on a range of models. That is one possible way forward which is based on a sound education philosophy, and that is important. We are all saying that whatever is done must be based on a sound education philosophy that incorporates the needs of our young people.
638.
Mr Topping: I want to add two other points. First, at the moment there is a danger that the upper-end of the education system is being dictated to by higher education. What happens in higher education, the admissions procedure et cetera dictates what happens at the upper-end of secondary education. Therefore, we cannot look at the post-primary sector without looking at what comes before and - to some degree - what comes after. Otherwise it is a flawed exercise.
639.
Secondly, society often tends to think of the education service as the sole provider and the only way that education can be delivered. If you look at some of the other systems, for example, Ireland and in particular Germany, you will find that there is a partnership there. It is almost like a social contract, especially among business, industry and the education service. We seem to receive a kind of critical analysis from business that says "We do not like what we get from schools." However, the partnership has not been fully developed here. One outcome I want to see from this debate is a partnership, with business and industry playing a vital role that enhances educational opportunities for young people.
640.
Mr K Robinson: This has been a very calm and collected conversation. The tone around the table today has been most helpful. Many of the thoughts that we have formed as individuals and as a Committee have been reinforced by what you have said this morning. We raised the issue of the totality of education with the Minister on his last appearance before the Committee.
641.
Mr Martin has already mentioned the social, educational and economic outcomes. I am concerned that education appeared towards the bottom of the list rather than at the top. We also spoke earlier about the socio-economic context and at that point I was becoming anxious that the business fraternity was driving the debate. However, as the discussion moved on I became happier that it was going in the right direction.
642.
You referred to vocational education and the German system. Where education is concerned, we are very good at labelling. What do you mean by "vocational" education? Some Committee members visited Schleswig- Holstein and Bavaria recently. Each German Landhas a different system. Where did you go, and did you see the same systems or something different?
643.
Mr Fitzsimons: We did not visit any of the German systems. A lecturer gave us a presentation on the German system but he did not deal with any specific system. He said there were variables and that much depended on choice. As far as we were concerned, that was the key word: choice. The choice was between institutions that offered different education pathways and parity of esteem. In the Northern Ireland context, vocational education is seen as inferior to the academic system. We should think of vocational education in a much wider context. The word "professional" might be more appropriate. A vocational education means preparing people for all jobs, not just for trades or for labouring work. Vocational training exists for accountants, solicitors, managers, and this is the wider vocational aspect. That is every child's entitlement.
644.
Mr K Robinson: Our problem is that that may not be the public perception of vocational education.
645.
Mr Fitzsimons: This is a problem and something needs to change. If you apply the German system to Northern Ireland, people think there is a hierarchy of esteem between vocational and academic. It is important to redefine what is meant by "vocational". There is a language problem and terminology and definitions need to change.
646.
Mr Martin: I would like to emphasise that point. At a recent meeting of the consultative education forum, when people were talking about academic and vocational, the words actually meant different things for different people. We need to change the framework within which this debate is being conducted, because when "vocational" and "academic" are mentioned in Northern Ireland, we are referring to a split in education that goes back to the mid-twentieth century. In crude terms, grammar schools were seen as academic and non-grammar schools (secondary schools) were seen as vocational. That system was devised against the backdrop of an industrial model, where a small percentage of high-flyers became managers and so on, and the remainder went on to be manual workers. One danger in the present debate is that we are still trying to devise an education system within that old framework instead of moving into the new knowledge-based economy where there are no longer as many manual workers.
647.
Mr S Wilson: Our discussion on the nature of education has been very useful. However, we still need to make hard choices because we cannot stop the educational clock now and start it up again in two or three years' time when we have resolved these issues. I feel your submission showed a lack of willingness to tackle some of the very hard choices which immediately face us.
648.
You have avoided the question as to whether some type of selection process is inevitable, be it from an academic or vocational standpoint. There will always be schools that are under-subscribed or over-subscribed be it for historical reasons or because of their location.
649.
If a school is over-subscribed, how will the selection process take place among those who wish to attend? Will academic criteria be used? Will it be done on a first-come, first-served basis? Will it be by parental choice? We cannot run away from the question of selection, and having searched through your papers I am still at a loss as to how you intend to facilitate it.
650.
Secondly, we have talked about the needs of young people. Do you believe that there will have to be specialisms within the structures that emerge? If so, what specialisms will be provided, and how will young people opt for them? It will not be possible to provide those specialisms within the same school buildings because as far as those are concerned we are not starting off with a blank sheet of paper. How will people choose those specialisms, or be chosen for them?
651.
The Chairperson: There are a lot of important points for you, gentlemen.
652.
Mr Martin: They are important points, and difficult ones. This is a crunch issue and it will emerge at some point in the future.
653.
We have not provided answers to the questions because we cannot do so at this time. The debate is presently about the key principles that will get us to that point. When we get there we will not shrink from the hard choices that will have to be made. A variety of provisions will emerge. However, the solution for the Western Education and Library Board may be different from that for the Belfast Board. Indeed, the solution for one part of the Western Board - the predominantly rural part - may be quite different to that for another part, which may be largely urban in nature. However, key common principles and entitlements will provide the framework enabling us to tackle these tough decisions.
654.
In Strabane, the issue is being tackled within the maintained sector, and in Omagh, there is a debate ongoing within the controlled sector. We can tackle this issue and I think we will succeed.
655.
One thing we are envisaging is that up to about age 14 there will be a common core - a common curriculum or framework. After that age, there will be a series of options, and young people and their parents will be in a better position to make informed choices at that stage. This will not avoid the difficult issue of selection criteria, and I know that in our joint submission we have mentioned some possibilities, such as geographical location, sibling relationship, et cetera. Those will resolve some of the selection issues but not all.
656.
Surely pupil preference and good careers information are the keys. I think that all of us have stressed in our papers the increasing importance of people being guided in their choice so that the variety of talents and specialisms they have can be developed. It is likely that there will be a great deal of self- selection on the basis of good careers information and advice. It will not resolve all the issues surrounding selection but it will go a long way towards resolving some of them.
657.
Mr Cargo: It depends where you start from in this debate. If you start from the position where it is the schools who choose their pupils then you will end up with a process through which you ensure that they choose equitably. That is what the current system does. Whatever we think about the selection test - and we all have views about the nature of the test - we do have a system that equitably allocates people within the process.
658.
If on the other hand you start with individuals making choice a different set of issues arise. There are challenges for all of us in this room. There are also challenges for how schools meet pupil need rather than pupils meeting school needs. We are talking about moving to a system where young learners are put at the heart of the choice. Therefore, the system needs to evolve and satisfy that choice. It does not necessarily have to be a lottery or a case of not having that choice. If you start with meeting needs you have to tailor the system to meet those needs.
659.
Mr S Wilson: It is fine to say that in the confines of this room where we are discussing these things rationally. However, you know that there are some schools in Belfast which are four or five times over subscribed, and there are others that cannot get enough people to fill their first year intake. With the best will in the world, careers advice and talking calmly to parents will not overcome that imbalance. It forces you to look at a means of selection, and we cannot run away from that.
660.
Mr Cargo: Or it moves you to look at our existing provision because that over-provision is not simply in one sector. That oversubscription is in the integrated sector and in some schools in the grammar sector but others are undersubscribed. It is also in some of the non-selective sector. Some schools are currently oversubscribed. The challenge for politicians is how to handle choice and inclusion. That is a major concern if you look at the needs of our society and how we develop that. We are looking to see if the current provisions are the most appropriate. In the city we now have now four schools in group one status. That means we are radically reappraising what is currently on offer, and are providing something that will meet the needs of young people and give them a choice. There are ways in which we can evolve the system that will sidestep the either/or scenario that you are setting in front of us. However, people need to be prepared to consider moving into a range of alternative formats.
661.
Mr Gallagher: Your paper mentions that an unfortunate side effect of selection is disparity of esteem. I think this is at the centre of it. A solution will be found if that area is tackled. Will ending selection stop disparity of esteem? Mr Martin talked about possible solutions emerging in Strabane, and we hope that that will be one way of delivering parity of esteem. I want to hear all of your views about that. Are schools, or schools systems, in your areas going to put in place a different structure which will allow pupils to move from a school, which in the past was perceived as academic, to another, which was perceived as vocational.
662.
If children cannot move about from one to the other, as they, their parents, and teachers consider suitable, then we are not going to end up with a system that delivers true parity of esteem. We can talk about all the other important things - early years, education and other route ways of delivering NVQ's - but essentially this debate is about tackling unfairness and inequality and putting in parity of esteem. Do you think that structures could emerge in your areas that will allow that to happen, or do you think that at the end of the day somebody is going to have to put a structure in place which will make sure it happens?
663.
Mr Martin: We would feel that present structures certainly tend to lead to a lack of parity of esteem. Secondary schools feel that they do not enjoy the same esteem because of the present selective structures. I do not think that change of structures alone will lead to parity of esteem, because there are key things within schools that will be necessary; one is the quality of leadership, which is going to be vital; the second is the range of provision meeting the needs of the individual. Those are a couple of elements that will need to be addressed in a big way in order to provide parity of esteem between schools.
664.
Mr Topping: It is a key issue in the sense that we want to give all our young people equality of opportunity. That does not mean to say that they all have to get the same, but we want to ensure that there is excellence in the system for all. There are a number of interdependencies, and Mr Martin has mentioned a couple of them. Open enrolment has led to a system where there is a pecking order of schools. That has obviously meant that parents perceive schools in different ways in different areas. Undoubtedly, it means that some schools are at the top of the order and others are at the bottom. That is not fair for children. Funding is an issue, and there is also the ethos of the school We hear quite often about the moral and spiritual ethos of a school, but there is also an ethos in the school as to what it is actually delivering in relation to specialisms. In our Board area we would be very interested in going down the route to develop specialisms in schools to give children an opportunity to develop their own particular expertise.
665.
Those are the kind of issues that we are into when we talk about parity of esteem, so we cannot just change the structure and hope that everything will be right, we need to change a number of other areas because they are all interdependent.
666.
Mr Fitzsimons: We also need to recognise that change is happening whether we like it or not. The population is decreasing. Access to grammar school places, for example, for children who are below 'A' and 'B' grades is increasing. We have schools now - and Mr Topping referred to the popularity of schools - where numbers are declining because of open enrolment and we spend a lot of money busing people all over the place. We have to examine our resources and that may mean investing in schools so if we are talking about parents making choices, real choices are there and they are of equal status.
667.
There is an issue about perception. If people believe that the curriculum in one school is inferior to another, that creates an issue. There is also the matter of the education that we offer to young people. Is it too academic? Should there be a balance between the higher vocational and academic? Clearly, that is so. There is a big issue about what we are going to do for children, as well as the status, accommodation and view that people in the community have about the school.
668.
If we are honest, some of the choices about schools are made on social grounds.
669.
Ms Lewsley: I apologise for not being here for your presentation. Some of my questions relate to what I have heard since I came in. I might therefore repeat what has already been asked.
670.
While this issue has been solely about selection, it has now opened up into a wider debate. I agree with Mr Cargo that selection cannot be looked at in isolation. Many of us talk about pre-nursery education but it has to go further back than that because it is not just about the children themselves. Many of the children going to school at 5 years old - whom we would term underachievers before they started school - have parents who have gone through the system. What role do you see them playing? We under-utilise our older people, our grandparents. Even if they only have the skills of life to pass on, they do never get the opportunity to do so.
671.
What should we be offering teachers, as regards flexibility, that they are not being offered now? I am thinking about specialisms, particularly in the area of special needs.
672.
'Strategy 2010' - and somebody touched on it - mentioned our new knowledge-based economy. How do you make a connection between education and industry, or the wider economy, those bodies are not even communicating with each other?
673.
Department of Education officials have said that even if we go for the scrapping of selection it will be two years before it goes. Sadly, people think we will have it scrapped by September next year. Further to that, even after we have taken it away in two years time, it will take at least five years before some sensible system is put in place. Our perceptions of the system before and after we went to Germany were totally different.
674.
Regarding what Mr Fitzsimons said about vocational education, the German systems contained a vocational stream that was about apprenticeships - which we thought related to mechanics, bricklayers and joiners. It actually concerned banking and insurance. So there is a big difference.
675.
Mr Cargo: Everyone will agree that parents are very important. If you look at education in the context of lifelong learning, a circle is completed. Lifelong learning at that third age, that of our parents and grandparents, is actually about linking back into learning processes. It allows them to be more effective partners in the learning process of the early years.
676.
The problem is that we have not completed that circle. We are attacking the development of education piecemeal. What we need to do - and it is starting to happen - is to tie down that early years provision, underpin it with a sound education philosophy and start tying in that third-age, and the parents, in a learning process where there is active learning. Active learning is taking place with the development of the education of their own children or grandchildren.
677.
Mr K Robinson: That brings us back to alternative suppliers of education. There are many agencies, including district councils, tapping into that. That area really needs to be developed.
678.
Mr Cargo: As regards early years education, there is a whole plethora of providers, and many of them are doing exciting things. However we are dissipating our energies because there is no coherence. As regards business, I will give you two examples. The debate is less of a megaphone one than it used to be.
679.
In Belfast, we are doing a best value review of literacy and we took a submission from the Confederation of British Industry. They gave us a very good submission but it tended towards "You're not producing children for us". We then engaged in a debate. They were challenging us but we were also challenging them. The outcome was that the individual from the CBI said that they would like to be involved in the continuing debate.
680.
Moreover we are now beginning to see new models emerge. Certainly, NIE and Northern Bank are involved in collaborative and pro-active models where they are actually participating in learning through programmes such as "Time to Read, Time to Count".
681.
We are engaging in the partnership that Mr Topping talked about rather than sitting on either side of the debate. We need to continue to close that gap, and there are models around in which that is happening in a much more active way than happened in the past, again around NVQ.
682.
Mr Fitzsimons: Business is willing to get involved but we have to do a lot of work in helping that process. We have a project in the north Down area, where business is delivering part of A levels and also GNVQs. In order to accomplish that involvement there is a lot of work in preparing business. There also has to be a lot of trust on the part of the teacher, so as not to revisit that or do it again. There is a big issue there, but there are models of good practice beginning. It is easy to say let the business deliver the curriculum. There is a big gap and resources may need to be placed to help it happen, but it is an interesting development.
683.
The Chairperson: If localised systems are implemented, are there not quality issues or implications as a result of that?
684.
Mr Martin: We have not tackled the structure issue in the detail that some members would be pushing us towards and we have not examined the issue in the depth that would be required to give an answer. However if you look again at our submissions you will see that we are saying that there should be an entitlement curriculum for every child, regardless of where that child lives.
685.
While there may be variations in structures, if the purpose of those structures or institutions at each stage is to deliver the "entitlement curriculum" appropriate to that age, it should not matter where a child lives. I will have to be careful with the caveats as Mr Fitzsimons mentioned. Children will have entitlement to the core curriculum regardless of where they are, so that should not be an issue.
686.
Mr Fitzsimons: I think we will eventually end up with individual education plans for each child. How and where these plans are delivered will depend upon a number of things; accessibility, and ability of children to travel or to have access through IT. There will be an obligation to have an educational plan that would be signed off and it would be the responsibility of an education authority or a school to deliver that. That is a new concept, quite different from the old stereotype models in which everyone went to the same school. We are moving into a new scenario.
687.
We may use the same schools that the children currently go to. We are already trying that with some children at the moment. When the children go to a school, it may have access to resources through IT or by clustering with other schools and sharing resources. One of the big problems that we have at the moment, which we all know about, is the choice that young people have to make, particularly at Key Stage 4. Those choices are currently limited by what the school has on offer and by the tradition of the school.
688.
We are moving into a new age where the equality agenda will come in, where children will say "I want to do that". The question is, "How do you provide access for that?"
689.
Mr Topping: We need to be careful about the bureaucracy attached to some of the issues. I have no doubt that there will be some kind of contract between schools and parents; between education authorities and parents, or maybe even between the State and parents, so that parents will be entitled to a certain kind of education for their children. How that education will be delivered is another matter, because there are so many different models that could be used to deliver education. It is an exciting time, and we are back to, 'must have flexibility'. We must harness all the resources of the community to educate our children and not just leave it all to teachers for five to six hours a day in the classroom.
690.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much for attending the Committee session today. Your contributions were most useful.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 1 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Ms E Bell
Mr Gallagher
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Witnesses:
Ms R Reid ) Research and
Evaluation Services
Ms A Montgomery ) Assembly Researcher
691.
The Chairperson: Good afternoon and welcome. Today we will continue to look at evidence on the review of the transfer procedure. We are very pleased to welcome Rhona Reid and Alison Montgomery from Research and Evaluation Services and the Assembly research team who will outline the results of research undertaken with focus groups comprising parents, pupils and teachers in Belfast, Fermanagh and Tyrone.
692.
Ms Reid: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about my research.
693.
Eleven groups were involved - four with parents, four with pupils and three with teachers. In total I spoke to 108 people. The groups were not designed so that I could get a consensus - I was merely there to get their opinion. We were not trying to reach an overall view to take forward. The report and research collated different people's opinions in each of the focus groups.
694.
First, I would like to go through the results from the children's groups. There were four groups - two in Belfast, one in Enniskillen and one in Omagh. When asked about the current system, the majority of children felt that the test was very important. In one group, however, the children were all happy to go to the local high school and did not feel as much pressure about the tests or the results as other children. They felt that the test showed who was the most intelligent child, and they were quite accepting of that. However, they also felt that it had long-term implications for them and that the better their mark, the better their education would be. They felt that if they got an A and went to the grammar school, they would get a better education.
695.
I asked them what their parents felt about the test, and there was a variation. The majority said that their parents told them not to worry and just to do their best. However, some said that they were put under pressure by their parents and that they would get a reward only if they got an A. One child said her father would hit her if she got a D - I do not know whether to believe her. There definitely seemed to be some pressure from parents. One girl said that her mother had forced her to do the test, but she did not want to do it, and she constantly got lower grades as a result.
696.
They felt that some questions were put in the test deliberately to trick them. They felt that the test was very long, and they felt under pressure sitting it. There were probably three or four children in each group who would get grade As. They sat quietly in the corner and said that the test was no problem and that it did not upset them. Those who were more vocal were probably the children who found it more difficult.
697.
They all said that they would recommend that other children should do the test - not one child said that they would not recommend it. They felt that it was something that you do when you get to 10 or 11. There were some children in each of the groups who did not sit the test. While they were not overtly ridiculed, they were described as people who could not be bothered doing the exam and were told that it would be a waste of seven years if they did not. They really felt that this was something that they should do. There was some concern about the fact that one child who got a B1 or B2 would get into the grammar school one year, while another with the same grade the next year may not.
698.
They did not feel the system was fair, and they did not understand why that happened.
699.
I asked the children about preparation for the test and how it had interfered with other activities. In Belfast the majority of children said it had not interfered with their activities outside school. However, in Omagh and Enniskillen all the pupils said that they had had to give up extra-curricular activities, such as clubs and societies, take their work with them on holidays and give up visits to grandparents. Coming up to the test, children in these groups had had to give up their lunch breaks in order to prepare for the test. They were, therefore, slightly envious of the other children who were not doing the test, because they could see them playing while they had to do a great deal more work, and they thought that that was unfair.
700.
I asked the children if any of them had been tutored and about the prevalence of that. Only in one group had the majority (7 out of 10 pupils) had tutors, and, while it was their parents' idea, they felt that it was a good one, and it gave them a chance to go over the things they had done wrong. The rest of the group were adamant and said "My mother goes through it with me" or "My auntie, who is a teacher, helps me". They felt that by not having a tutor, they were disadvantaged, and they wanted to explain why they did not have one. In the other groups only one or two had tutors, and it did not seem to bother the other children that they did not have one. They all seemed to get a great deal of help at home.
701.
I asked the children whether there should be different schools such as grammar and secondary schools. They said that the children who were not as clever should not go to grammar schools and that the grammar schools are there for the children who can learn more quickly. If children who could not learn quickly went to the grammar schools, then it would slow the others down.
702.
Therefore, the children had a strong, definite notion of what they perceived to be the difference between grammar and secondary schools. One of the children said that there might be trouble at grammar schools if there were no secondary schools. That shows a perception of the type of child who goes to both the secondary and the grammar schools.
703.
I asked the children about the age of transfer. The majority of them felt ready to go to a new school and that 11 was the right age. When I asked them if they would like a test at a later date, they thought that that would be a good idea, but then they realised that if the test were hard at 10, it would be really hard at 14. One boy said that you could end up doing a 25+ test instead of your 11+ test. They realised that they would not like that. A few children said that an extra year might be beneficial to them and that perhaps 12 would be a better age.
704.
The children were all looking forward to going to their new school, predominately in order to study new subjects and meet new people, but they were very scared about the extra homework and the timetable. They had heard that they would get stricter teachers, and bullying seemed to be an issue for many of the children. The children in Omagh and Enniskillen, in particular, seemed to be more worried about bullying than, for instance, those in Belfast.
705.
I asked the children about their opinion of the current system and the alternatives. The vast majority of them said that doing some form of test was right, because it prepared them for doing future tests. They said that doing tests is important and is good experience for doing tests in the next school. They thought that some form of continuous assessment, where their marks could be taken into account, might be useful. Some of them supported assessment from P1; some from P4 or P5 onwards. The children thought that the Key Stage tests had not been too tricky and that that might be a good way to go. They did not think it would be fair if teachers decided, because they said that teachers are human and have favourites.
706.
In one of the schools in Enniskillen a teacher had visited from the high school and had talked about the school, and they felt that that was very useful. It helped reassure children about their next school. Whilst they had all been to see schools on open nights, they found it good that the teacher actually came to their school. They enjoyed that.
707.
One boy also talked about the expense of going to grammar school. If he got an A and was going to go to the grammar school, it would cost £80 for his uniform. He felt that this would be a factor that could put people off. He wanted to go, but obviously he knew that it would be more expensive than going to a secondary school.
708.
I will now give you a summary of the results from the parents. All of the parents disapproved of the current test. They felt that 10 or 11 was too young for children to be doing a test of this nature. They said that it does not give a true reflection of the child's ability, and that their children's self-esteem is destroyed after this test. They also felt that it was rigged to make some children fail. One parent talked about his older child, who had got a D in a previous test. Afterwards the child said "I did not realise I was that stupid". This parent was very concerned about the grading and felt that there should be a pass or a fail grade instead of giving Ds. She thought that D was such a terrible grade.
709.
Three parents felt that it was not a big deal. They were not concerned about it, because the children were going to the local secondary school. They let the children do the test, but the result did not matter, because they were very happy for the children to go to the local secondary school. That is the emphasis they placed on it for their children.
710.
One parent said that it really did impact upon her children. She said that it was only after the test that she had heard her child laugh again - there was no laughter from September until November, and she felt that it was unfair. When I asked if certain sections of society were disadvantaged, the majority of parents did not think that they were. Somebody said, "If I had a million pounds and my child got a D, they would not get in to the grammar school".
711.
In one group, a mother said that her child had indicated on the form that she wanted to go to a grammar school if she got an A. The mother had to tell her to take it off the form, because she could not afford the uniform. While she did not think that she was being socially disadvantaged, obviously she felt that she could not afford to send the child to the grammar school - that child would not be going to the grammar school no matter what grade she got. A group containing mostly middle-class parents - and I hate to use that term - felt that, statistically, working-class children do not get the grades and that the poor are left behind. That was their opinion. They felt that the benefit of the current system was that all children could receive a grammar education. Some said that they had relatives in England who had to pay £15,000 a year to get their child into grammar-school education.
712.
On private tutoring, the majority of parents were totally against coaching. One parent gave the example of having had her middle child coached. The child struggled at grammar school, and the parent felt that that had been the absolutely wrong thing to do. Her next child will not get any coaching at all, as it puts too much pressure on the child. They said that the ethos of tutors came from the schools, and some schools have a definite coaching culture, almost enforcing coaching for the children.
713.
I got a mixed response when I asked about the transition to post-primary school at this age 11. Parents felt that children were ready to move schools at 11, but that they were not ready for the pressure of the test. A number had older children in post-primary education, and they were all happy and thriving - really enjoying being there. The pressure of the actual test, not moving schools seemed to be a key concern for parents.
714.
The majority of parents felt that in the current curriculum, there was too much emphasis on academic achievement. The current system was losing children who were not academic, and there is no credit given for practical aspects. One woman said that her child could build a circuit quite easily, but ask him to write it down on a piece of paper, and he would not be able to. She did not feel that his abilities were being catered for in the system. Some parents were concerned that grammar schools did not do woodwork or metalwork any longer, or that home economics was not taught in schools, and they thought that that was wrong.
715.
I went through some of the potential alternatives with the parents.
716.
The majority of them felt that the comprehensive system would be the best solution, if it were run properly. However, they did not feel that it would suit everybody, and some said that they did not want to lose grammar schools. They felt that grammar schools were necessary if their children were to be pushed. All the parents were able to name good secondary schools, and they asked why all secondary schools are not as good as those they named. They felt that improving all secondary schools would be the best way forward.
717.
Most parents did not see the delayed transfer system as an alternative, as it was still perceived as selection's being postponed to a later date. Some parents did not think that selection was bad in itself. They said that life is about selection, and that it is a good way of letting children know that life can be tough: they were not that opposed to selection.
718.
Some parents felt that the differentiated system of post-primary schools was ideal. However, they did not know whether it would be workable in Northern Ireland. They were not sure that their children would know at 11 years of age what path they wanted to go down, whether it be vocational, technical or academic. The parents described it as a faraway dream in which academic achievements are equal to others. They felt that if that system were to work, a lot of work would have to be done.
719.
The majority of parents felt that if the dual system were to remain, some form of test would still be required. They did not think that it would be fair if teachers decided but felt that some element of coursework should be included in the system, which would take the extreme pressure off the children.
720.
Some parents felt that it would be fair if the transfer system could be set up in a similar way to the Key Stage 2 exams. They seemed to like that system, although they did acknowledge that if it were introduced, the pressure would probably be transferred from the transfer test to the Key Stage 2 exams.
721.
One parent in Enniskillen felt that the allocation of bus passes restricted the choice of schools that her children can attend. She said that if her child got an A she could go to any school in the area and would get a bus pass. However, if the child did not get an A and she wanted to send her to the all-girls secondary school in Enniskillen town, she would not get a bus pass. She would, therefore, have to send her to the local secondary school. She felt that her choice was restricted.
722.
The majority of parents felt that there was long-term impact on those children who fail. When I started the groups, I asked them about their own experiences of the transfer test. They were all able to say "I failed. I passed. She failed. She passed". They felt that the transfer test would impact as much on their children as it had on them.
723.
All the teachers felt that the way in which the selection system for 11-year-olds is currently managed should be reassessed. They felt that the current system is divisive, with children at age 11 being classed as either successes or failures. Primary school teachers found the current system to be stressful, as they are marked on the number of passes that their pupils get. They felt that giving one grade for seven years' work was not fair and that the work in year seven was rushed to try to accommodate the exam. Many teachers said that by the end of the year, some pupils who got a D in the exam were getting higher marks in other tests by May and June. They were looking at the ones who got the As' in the transfer exam but were struggling by the end of the year, and they were thinking "That is not fair, as I am equally intelligent, but I got a D at the start of the year".
724.
They felt that a child did not get an A by virtue of its academic ability only, but that a wide range of social factors impacted on that. Some of the teachers said that some pupils do not see that they have a role to play in the grammar school system - their parents do not know anything about the system and have not come from a grammar school system. Therefore, if their child got an A they would not send it to a grammar school. Those parents and children do not feel part of the system at all.
725.
The secondary school teachers said that failing in the transfer exam knocks the self-confidence of the children, and they spend a great deal of time in year eight trying to rebuild that. They also argued that selection at 11 years of age did not work because of the number of high achievers in secondary schools who got high GCSE and A level marks, but yet they were seen to have failed at 11 years of age.
726.
However, some of the primary school teachers felt that the current system is quite cut and dried and that it is relatively easy to teach. They liked the fact that the decision as to who passed or failed was taken out of their hands. They were frightened about what would replace it. They were not sure whether anything better could be introduced.
727.
On the whole they felt that the current exam was out of kilter with all the others, since there was no element of coursework and the children could not resit.
728.
They were not of the opinion that coaching was as big a problem as parents believed. They did not feel that the 11-plus was any different in this respect from other exams. As the system encourages teachers and parents to try to get children into grammar schools, it is an inevitable fact of life. They recognised that the issue of coaching was often used to highlight inequalities and social disadvantage but felt that inequality begins long before children sit the exam.
729.
They felt that not enough vocational teaching was undertaken in schools since the advent of the common curriculum when the Government decided the academic route was best. They said that while it is not wrong to teach someone a foreign language, it should not be at the cost of practical subjects which may provide a means of earning a living at a later date. Given the league-table mentality, they felt that the value of a child would not be recorded unless it was academically gifted.
730.
Some teachers believed that other structures might offer a reasonable alternative, but in a mixed-ability comprehensive, rather than one where everyone was put into the same groups. They felt that that was the only way it would work. One teacher had taught in Craigavon, which practises delayed selection, and felt that it tended to be dominated by academic abilities. Grammar school teachers wanted to bring pupils in at 11 and work with them for seven years. They thought that that was the way they could get the best out of the child while monitoring its progress throughout.
731.
Assuming that values could be changed, the system in Germany was seen as the perfect solution, but it was viewed as a distant dream and perhaps as being not practicable owing to the Northern Ireland employment situation. They felt that you needed to have an academic qualification to get a job in Northern Ireland - or at least that that was what people perceived. People's views about jobs and the opportunities available therefore needed to be changed. One teacher had been on a tour to Germany to look at the system and was convinced that it would not work in Northern Ireland, since Germany has an industrial economy where technology is held in parity of esteem with academia. For example, engineers making BMW cars are paid, treated and respected the same as doctors.
732.
Further concerns about the system were that children would not choose a vocational route at 11, since they had not been taught it up to that time, and that 11 was too early to decide.
733.
On the whole, suggestions to replace the current system were limited. There was some fear of change, and it was argued that any development would be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. People said that the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water and that there were some very positive aspects to the current system.
734.
Mention was made of how the status quo suits a great many people, especially in the grammar sector. A number of teachers said that finding the money needed to make changes might put too much strain on the current system, which could have an impact on schools.
735.
Some primary school teachers said that they were happy with the system of selection by examination and that it took the pressure off them. They felt that it was easy to teach the three subjects of science, English and maths. If the number of subjects were increased, it might be more difficult to get children to excel in art or music. However, they felt that it was straightforward to get them to excel in science, English and maths.
736.
Setting tests to cover broad areas of the curriculum was not seen as an alternative. They felt that primary teachers would be overloaded, and they did not have the skills to teach that. The teacher would become a jack of all trades.
737.
Allowing individual schools to set their own entrance exams was perceived as terrible. It would increase the power of grammar schools and mean that primary schools would teach the grammar curriculum.
738.
Having teachers and principals of primary schools recommend suitable post-primary education was described as an "absolute disaster". Some teachers said that they would have to move house and that the pressure that parents would put them under would make working impractical.
739.
A teacher said that he felt that there should be room for local solutions to the issue that would be appropriate to the communities that they serve. He was from Omagh, and he said that the solutions that would work there would not necessarily work in Belfast or even in Enniskillen.
740.
A teacher also said that he felt that the current system is making sink schools out of secondary schools because of the funding available for integrated education. The pupils who would have got a grade B or C and gone to the local secondary schools are now going to the integrated schools. Therefore, the academic potential of the children that they are getting has dropped significantly. He felt that that was an issue for concern.
741.
All the groups agreed that the system in its current form is not appropriate, although pupils recommended that everybody gave it a try. None of the parents identified any positive aspects of the current system. The majority of all participants were in favour of some type of testing but agreed that this should incorporate a degree of coursework.
742.
Most teachers and parents agreed that 11 is the wrong age for the pressure of selection and testing but thought that moving schools at 11 was OK. However, some thought that if the child was older, they might have more motivation to work for the test.
743.
Most parents and a few teachers viewed tutoring in a very negative way. The rest of the teachers and the pupils did not feel that this had an impact on them.
744.
There were not many differences between the results in Belfast and those in Omagh and Enniskillen. The main difference was that teachers thought that parents in Omagh and Enniskillen put more pressure on their children to do the test, or, when they were advised that their children should not do the test, they felt that they should, or made the children do it.
745.
The issue of travelling to school seemed to be of greater importance for people in Omagh and Enniskillen. For example, some children had to leave the house at 7.15 am when they were going to their new school. Pupils in Belfast were less worried about bullying than the other groups and did not think that the preparation interfered with their extra-curricular activity as much as the pupils in Omagh and Enniskillen did.
746.
The Chairperson: What kind of sample of pupils, teachers and parents was used? How many pupils were involved, and did they represent the whole society? Are you satisfied that you had a full range?
747.
Ms Reid: I am very satisfied. I think that maintained and controlled primary and secondary schools were represented in one teacher group in Belfast. We had one parent group that was mostly from west Belfast and another from east Belfast, and the children came from schools in east and west Belfast.
748.
The Chairperson: Were all of the meetings for the different sectors held separately? Is it possible that children were looking at their parents and giving an answer that they knew that their parents would want to hear?
749.
Ms Reid: No. The children were in the schools, and I was the only person there - there were no parents or teachers in the groups.
750.
Mr S Wilson: In the responses about the alternative systems, you mentioned that the phrase
"The majority of parents felt that a comprehensive system if run properly, would be the best solution." was used.
What did they mean by that?
751.
Ms Reid: The feeling among parents seems to be that if the secondary schools that they identified as not being good schools could be brought up to the level of the other comprehensive schools and run properly, then secondary schools could be as good as others.
752.
Mr S Wilson: Other secondary schools?
753.
Ms Montgomery: I think that they gave examples, did they not? They identified some schools that they considered to be good comprehensives here, what we would call good secondary schools here, is that not right?
754.
Ms Reid: If all schools could be like that then they knew they would be good.
755.
Mr S Wilson: Did they identify what they thought was good about those schools?
756.
Ms Reid: They did not, actually, to be honest. They mentioned the wide facilities that one of the schools offered children, the results were good, and it seemed that the discipline in the school was good. That is how they perceived it.
757.
Mr McElduff: The research is very good. There is a great deal of detail in it and many things that each of us will recognise. What struck me was the phrase "no laughter from September to November." That is very compelling evidence, if that is what people are saying, if that is the effect this is having on children. It is very important to note that. Is there an overwhelming sense that something is about to change? Is there an uncertainty, or a feeling or were people saying "I hope my child benefits from the change" or "Is my child going to be caught up in this 11-plus thing in one year or two years' time?" Did you come across any of that?
758.
Ms Reid: The parents that I spoke to had children who had just sat the test, and a number of them said that they had younger ones and that they hoped that the system would have been changed by the time they came to do the exam. To be honest, I do not think that there was a great expectation that there would be a change. The teachers certainly felt that. Some said that it might be related to, perhaps, a change of Minister. A new Minister who was, perhaps, not opposed to it might be appointed, and that might hold it all up. They felt that it was a political thing - very much so.
759.
Mr McElduff: It is interesting to hear the almost cultural differences between Omagh, Enniskillen and Belfast. I cannot understand why there is this greater awareness of bullying in Enniskillen and Omagh than in Belfast. I know the travelling thing will affect rural people more, but I wonder why?
760.
Ms Reid: Perhaps the people that I spoke to did not make up a representative sample. I am not sure. There is no real explanation.
761.
Mr Hamilton: In primary schools there is talk about the fear of bullying, but it is largely a myth in many cases. I was a teacher in a secondary school, and I used to hear the primary school kids all saying things like "When you go there on your first day, they stick your head down the toilet" - all that old goof. Were they really worrying about bullying, or were they just frightened of the stories they heard?
762.
Ms Reid: Some did hear stories from older brothers and sisters. There was one woman whose daughter had gone to one of the secondary schools in Omagh, and she was currently being bullied; she was very worried about that. There obviously was some bullying going on, but she was very worried and would not be sending her child to that secondary school.
763.
Mr Hamilton: I thought that you said that the major cause for concern was bullying.
764.
Ms Reid: It was. They were concerned, but I think it was more about being the youngest and the smallest. Some were saying "I am the smallest in this school, so what am I going to be when I get to the big school? or "I am the fattest in this school". One boy said "They are going to pick on me even more when I get to the secondary school".
765.
Mr Hamilton: We hear a great deal of talk from different groups about the pressure that parents put on children to pass this exam.
766.
Your research gives the impression that that was not the case. Most parents seem to have been saying that the children should do their best. Would you say that some parents put their children under pressure, but it is your impression that most do not?
767.
Ms Reid: Most children said that their parents had said that they could only do their best, and only a few said that they had been put under pressure.
768.
Ms Montgomery: The numbers involved in this research were very small, so Ms Reid and I did not use percentages in it. That is why we used terms such as "majority" and "some". There were 108 people involved in the research, and it is what I have described to Ms Reid as a snapshot of what is out there. I have to issue a word of caution about the numbers, because they are very small.
769.
The Chairperson: That is comparable to the Assembly, for we have 108 Members - another divergence of opinion.
770.
Mr Gallagher: Yes. We certainly have got a fair divergence of opinion.
771.
You mentioned that there was a feeling amongst the children that 12 might be a better age. Was that a better age for doing an 11-plus type of test or for changing schools? We have spoken about other systems, for example, children in the Republic of Ireland change schools a year later. Some grammar school teachers wanted the pupils for seven years. Does your research show that this was a strong view held by grammar school teachers? Did any parents agree with teachers that local solutions were a way forward or a distinct possibility?
772.
Ms Reid: The children were happy to do the test at the age of 10 or 11 but were not ready to move schools and felt that an extra year in primary school would be best for them.
773.
Only one or two grammar school teachers said that they wanted the children for seven years, but those who did felt that it was very important. Although parents felt that 11 was a bad age to take the test, the ones who had older children felt that it was good that the children were at the school from the age of 11 or 12.
774.
Mr Gallagher: Did the parents mention local solutions?
775.
Ms Reid: No. They did not.
776.
Mr Hamilton: I think we would all agree that we should try to keep children's lives as normal as possible and allow them to pursue other activities during the run-up to the test. Can you explain why the majority of kids in Belfast said that the test did not interfere with their activities and why the children in the two rural areas said that it interfered with theirs quite seriously?
777.
Ms Reid: I do not really understand why the children in Belfast did not think that it interfered. A number of children in Belfast had to attend a summer school to practice for the 11-plus, but they seemed to enjoy doing something different. Perhaps they felt special or that the extra work was something that they had to do in order to grow up. I am not really sure why there was such a definite difference.
778.
Some children from Belfast had to give up an opportunity to do a play in the Waterfront Hall because they were doing the test, but they did not feel that that interfered with their time. I asked them whether they were annoyed that they had not been able to do the play, and they seemed quite stoical - they knew that they had to do the test.
779.
Mr McElduff: The additional stress of travelling miles and miles is also a factor.
780.
The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I thank both of you for your excellent presentation and informative research.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 1 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gallagher
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Witnesses:
Mr T McKee) National Association of
Schoolmasters and Union
of Women Teachers
Mr P Scott )
781.
The Chairperson: We are taking evidence from various representative groups for our report on post- primary education. I am pleased to welcome Mr Tom McKee and Mr Peter Scott from the National Association of Schoolmasters and Union of Women Teachers (NASUWT).
782.
Mr McKee: The NASUWT is the largest teachers' union in Northern Ireland, with in-service membership of over 9,000 out of a teaching force of 20,000. Membership is mainly in the secondary sector - about three-quarters of membership is in the post-primary sector.
783.
The response to the Gallagher Report has been circulated by the Clerk to the Committee. I assume it has either been read or is to be read. Presumably you have received the responses to the questions that we submitted. In our response to the Gallagher Report, the central thrust was that of a trade union. We made it clear that we are opposed to 11-plus selection, but we took the view that it was a question of jobs first and ideologies second. We were particularly conscious of section 6.4.2 of the report regarding the envisaged contraction in the post-primary sector if comprehensive education were introduced. The number of schools would go down by approximately 60. Therefore we have to move with a fair degree of caution with that kind of statement in the main report.
784.
Opposition to selection is strong now. Almost every day a new body adds its weight to the campaign against selection. The Northern bishops and even the Examinations Authority have come out against it. We put it to the Committee that the most damning critique of 11-plus selection is contained in the Gardner Report. Prof Gardner went through the transfer system very carefully, and the report's conclusions are that transfer procedure tests are not adequately skewed to deliver the top grades in the procedure.
785.
The report also makes the rather startling point that if the 11-plus selection were to be skewed satisfactorily, more difficult questions would have to be put into the test. If you were to do that then you would, of course, increase the stress on children.
786.
We believe opposition to 11-plus selection is unanswerable. However, we acknowledge that the way forward - what system will replace the current one - is not as clear. You will see that we do not recommend a particular comprehensive system to replace the current one. To a certain extent we believe that it is not the role of unions to administer the system. We have another preoccupation. The number of education authorities in Northern Ireland is quite high - we have eight central education authorities now - and if there were a fundamental reorganisation of education it would lead to a large number of teachers having to cross employment sectors. We would then have the problem of securing safeguards under the transfer of undertakings provisions in law. Those are quite complicated. We would be getting our priorities wrong if we pressed for a particular system.
787.
In our view there is no one single system that recommends itself. We believe, as we stated in our report to Prof Gallagher, that the way forward is by the well-tested route of development proposals. This was tested in the case of the Strabane bilateral. There was a statutory consultation period given there and as a result of that the Department decided that objections to the system were not significant enough and the bilateral system has been brought in in that particular area. You could have a series of development proposals around Northern Ireland based on an inclusive comprehensive system, but you could accommodate different types of comprehensive education systems. There is no reason why a two-tier system could not co-exist with an all-through comprehensive one.
788.
The other important principle to bear in mind about what happens after the Gallagher report and the Burns deliberations is the delivery of equality of opportunity in an effective way. In many senses that is a more important concept than that of comprehensive education. The present system is not delivering equality of opportunity. Youngsters do not have equal chances at external examinations, and we do not have proper parity of esteem between the two main examination systems - the GCE A level route on the one hand and the GNVQ route on the other.
789.
Any review of post-primary education must take account of moves introduced last September in A levels - the new AS levels for example - designed to increase the number of youngsters staying on in schools for extended courses and to bridge the gap between academic and vocational examinations. A truly comprehensive system could achieve that either by offering GNVQs alongside GCSE and GC A levels with full parity of esteem or a baccalaureate type of examination like the system that operates in France. That would be the ideal situation, allowing flexibility for youngsters to transfer from one course to another within an institution rather than to feel trapped in the course they picked at the end of fifth year.
790.
Our final point is that one of the strongest features of education in Northern Ireland - one of the reasons why the education system here has been the envy of the rest of the United Kingdom - is that, more than any other part of the United Kingdom, it is a genuine state education system. The inclusion of grammar schools in the state system is an important factor, and we do not wish to see that inclusivity endangered at all.
791.
If there were a confrontational approach to the reorganisation of secondary education, there would be a real risk of a haemorrhage. Some of the grammar schools - and one can guess at what the percentage might be - would be tempted out of the system to operate as fee-paying private schools. That was the experience in both England and Scotland when secondary education was reorganised.
792.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much. I am going to open the discussion to the floor. I also welcome the members of the public in the gallery, who are from a trade union background - albeit a different trade union - listening to what we have to say.
793.
Mr McKee: Well, if they are on a learning curve, we have no objection.
794.
Mr S Wilson: Mr McKee, I hope I am not being unfair but, having read your response and listened to your presentation, I am totally confused about a number of issues. Perhaps you will clarify them. First, you indicated that you are opposed to institutional selection, but you recognise that there are schools that are oversubscribed, while others are undersubscribed. How can you not have selection if you have some schools oversubscribed and others undersubscribed? Surely there must be selection to decide which school youngsters go to, especially if there is oversubscription?
795.
Secondly, you hinted that if parents were to insist on having the school of their choice this would make effective educational planning impossible. However, you also said that people should have a choice of different routes in education. How do you marry the two statements, that choice is a bad thing because it leads to oversubscription or undersubscription, yet at the same time there ought to be different routes?
796.
Finally, you said that you were concerned that Gallagher had indicated that the introduction of full comprehensives would lead to rationalisation and the closure or amalgamation of 80 schools and that that would affect jobs. As a trade union representative you are, quite rightly, concerned about jobs. However, you also said that it was the policy of the NASUWT to have comprehensive education in Northern Ireland while retaining grammar schools, otherwise, they might go independent. Is that not the aim? Perhaps I have misunderstood, but I am confused as to how you marry those kinds of contradictory statements.
797.
Mr McKee: In one sense there has to be confusion. This is a very complex problem to grasp, given the different types of education systems that we have in Northern Ireland and the number of education authorities. On the issue of selection, we may have caused some confusion because there are two interpretations of selection. One is selection by institution - the dichotomy between grammar schools and secondary schools - which is extremely unfair. The other form of selection is parental selection - the exercise of parental choice. We presume that there is no way that parental choice is going to be reversed. Parents are entitled to have choice. However, our argument is that the future of post-primary education has to be in terms of the ability of institutions to offer flexible choice, not only in a particular course, but also in respect of the two main examination routes. Those are GCSE A levels, on the one hand and GNVQ on the other.
798.
Small schools operating as self-standing institutions are not delivering that freedom of choice in an effective way. A school would have to be of significant size to offer effective choice of the full range of subjects in either course, and, certainly, to offer effective choice of the two courses together. If small schools try to offer a reasonable spread of GCSE subjects the price for that is that they offer it very thinly. They may have only one specialist in a particular subject. If specialists are ill or on maternity leave there are at times great problems in replacing them. In the bigger institutions you have the depth of provision in specialist areas.
799.
Mr S Wilson: Do bigger institutions not mean an amalgamation of smaller institutions? Is that what you mentioned earlier that you were concerned about?
800.
Mr McKee: Effectively this amalgamation does take place. If you look at what is happening around the Greater Belfast area - even without Gallagher or Burns - there is an unofficial reorganisation going on in which post-primary schools are beginning to work together. There is also an unofficial practice of secondary schools acting as feeder schools for the sixth forms of grammar schools so children can move across from secondary to grammar school. That is the kind of flexibility we want in the system. We are arguing that this practice should be more structured so that parents can exercise a choice within a genuinely inclusive system, a comprehensive system.
801.
Mr Gallagher: I want to ask you more about the issue of parity of esteem between the vocational and the academic parts. There is strong agreement that it is important that this is achieved, and you mentioned the baccalaureate system in which the facility for change exists. At an earlier presentation I mentioned this point. However, the witnesses did not envisage a future system in which there would be a crossover between schools. There is also a viewpoint that, particularly in the grammar school sector, teachers would like to have the pupils in their care for the full seven years.
802.
Do you feel more can be done, in the interests of parity of esteem, to allow children to crossover between the different schools in order to achieve a greater parity between the vocational and the academic? Is that something that teachers as a professional body worry about or would be prepared to consider?
803.
Mr McKee: We do worry about it. If you do not get adequate provision of external examinations you do not have job security, so teachers would have a vested interest in having sound provision of any examination course underpinning what is studied in school. Current Government proposals are overly optimistic. They think that by bringing in the new AS levels, they will meet the target of 80% of children staying on in Key Stage 5 beyond the age of 18. The French have already hit the target of 80% by fudging the baccalaureate through the introduction of vocational subjects into it, and that really delivered equality of esteem between the two systems. The problem is that the public at large, particularly employers, and to a certain extent admissions officers in higher education, do not recognise the true validity of GNVQ. I suspect that it will not be recognised effectively until we get a fused system like the baccalaureate system.
804.
Mr Scott: Could I just pick up on something Mr Gallagher said? There seemed to be an assumption that there was a context of a seven-year cycle. That may not necessarily be the case and the way forward might not be to base things on that assumption. Central to other systems, in other countries, is the concept of a process of orientation - often called "election" - at a much later age than age 11. I think we are starting to look more closely at the curriculum for 14- to 19-year-olds and in that context the whole concept of the GCSE exam as a terminal exam might disappear.
805.
It would be wrong at the outset to think purely within the context of the cycle concerning 11- to 18-year- olds. There are other approaches which might inform our debate surrounding the abolition of the selection process for 11-year-olds.
806.
Mrs E Bell: In paragraph (d) and (e) on page two of your response to the Committee it states that a system of continuous assessment would be an effective statement of achievement but would have dubious value as a predictor of future ability. It then goes on to say that you are at a loss to understand what is involved in the system of parental input or how this could ensure objective and equitable decisions. We were in Germany looking at the education system there, and I am sure you have looked at it too. As a trade union I thought you would be looking on education right through and also looking at social, educational and economic objectives. Why do you think continuous assessment has dubious value?
807.
Mr McKee: At Key Stage 2 teachers in primary schools give their assessment, which is an assessment of what the child has achieved. It is not designed to speculate on what the child will do over the next year or two. You cannot mix that form of assessment with the attempt at prediction which the transfer procedure is attempting to do. That is a point that we are making very strongly, and we resist strenuously any attempts to make selection by that method. This was tried in the early days of the transfer procedure when pupils did not get a grade in the test. Schools got a quota of grades to give out. They were then given out on the basis of whatever assessment had been done in the school. People in the area then put intense pressure on the teachers in local schools. If the transfer procedure has one merit it is that the assessment is done anonymously at the centre, and individuals are not subject to that kind of pressure. We were not clear what the Committee meant about parental input, and that is why we answered that way. At the time we should have put a question to you before answering that.
808.
Mrs E Bell: We are not sure how much impact that input should have. It can have, and has had, a stressful effect on children.
809.
Mr McKee: That is correct. On a recent visit to the two-tier system in Armagh what impressed me was not so much how the junior high school/post-primary system operated but the atmosphere inside the primary schools. Many people tend to go to the junior high schools and the senior high schools in north Armagh to see how they are working. It is important to go to primary schools to see the effect of Key Stage 2 teaching where there is no selection and where there is positive teaching right through in the final year of Key Stage 2. The primary teachers and principals in that area are extremely enthusiastic about the two-tier system. They are more enthusiastic than teachers in the post-primary stages.
810.
Mr McElduff: The transition year in the South is something that I find appealing. Has the union looked at the concept of the transition year where pupils at the age of 14 can concentrate on career guidance or personal development? The education system has to be tailored to meet the needs of industry. My colleague Mr McHugh often makes this point. How should the system adapt itself to respond to changes in technology?
811.
Mr McKee: As a union we have not taken official consideration of that and nor has the Gallagher Report. There is an interesting argument that the key transition year is at the end of Key Stage 3 at 14+, which is the age of transfer in the two-tier system.
812.
There are strong arguments for both of those situations. The Chairman mentioned the seven-year cycle in grammar schools. That does not occur in the two-tier system. The senior high school is broadly the equivalent of a grammar school - for example, the two-tier system in north Armagh would only have children for two years up to GCSE level. We maintain an open mind regarding which of the two systems would be best. However, our priority in approaching these problems must include ensuring job security insofar as possible, while also ensuring a adequate transfer of teachers. If we were to push for a particular system we would be weakening our position as a trade union in trying to secure those other advantages.
813.
With regard to the needs of industry you are right to say those must be taken into account. The existing curriculum, quite apart from being tightly prescriptive and not flexible enough, is also subject to criticism that it has removed in a rather alarming way the teaching of skills - craft, design and technology skills - from the secondary curriculum. The new subject, technology, has become an academic subject, and there is a knock-on effect in the further education system. There is hardly a further education college in Northern Ireland now that has the three engineering departments -civil, mechanical and electrical. Most of them are operating in one single engineering department, while some are operating without any engineering departments at all. That is extremely worrying.
814.
Equally worrying is the poor take-up of vocational GNVQ courses in the areas of manufacturing, engineering and IT. These figures are abysmally low compared with the very high levels in GNVQ in business studies, leisure and tourism. The implications for the Northern Ireland economy are serious. We have argued to the Minister of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment that one way to tackle this would be to introduce as a matter of urgency education maintenance allowances. This could provide an incentive to draw young people on to these courses. The allowances could be made available for designated courses. They are operating in at least 40 local educational authorities in England and are having the desired effect. The rate is about £40 per week. Of course, a youngster going on to the course must give a contract to complete a minimum time on that course.
815.
One note of caution regarding the needs of industry would be not to go too far down the road of industry and commerce in determining what is taught. This came out in the Callaghan debate a few years ago. Education is about the exercise of judgement in young people. The curriculum must make certain that general education is a strong part of the education system. The education system here is not like the system in a totalitarian regime where if "x" number of engineers are required, the system is then tweaked and produces the correct number of engineers. That would be a disastrous educational system.
816.
Mr S Wilson: I am bamboozled by this. Transfer will take place. I am not sure if it is at 11 years or 14 years of age after Mr Scott's intervention, but it must take place at some stage. Is that correct? In your paper you say that the test is not a good idea, that allowing schools to set individual tests would aggravate social inequality, that involving teachers was a disaster, that continuous assessment was of dubious value as a predicator of future ability, that parental input would neither be objective nor would it lead to equitable decisions and, furthermore, that a combination of all three would be too cumbersome. How is this decision to be made regarding which type of school and when youngsters transfer from primary to another school?
817.
Mr McKee: No group has yet come up with a seriously convincing answer to that particular question. The Campaign Against Selection (CAS) has not come up with anything. It can suggest arguments that the system must be comprehensively comprehensive. An isolated town like Strabane is an area where there is one post-primary schools, whereas there are big urban areas where parents can pick and choose between a number of schools.
818.
If you abolish the transfer procedure, then how you allocate pupils equitably to those schools is a very difficult question and one to which we as a union do not have the answer.
819.
One way of doing it which you missed out is the catchment school. However, if you did that, estate agents would milk that for all it was worth. House prices in certain areas would go up very quickly. I am quite happy to put my hands up and say that we as a union, in the democratic process of developing our response - and we must go through a democratic process - have not been able to come up with a solution to that problem. It is not a cop-out. I hope that you appreciate that as a trade union we have also very strong responsibilities in respect of maintaining job security for our members, who pay subscriptions.
820.
Mr S Wilson: Some of the most vociferous objectors to the current system of transfer have been teachers. The reason why I press you on the question is that since your organisation and teachers themselves have been fairly vociferous against the transfer procedure, it really is incumbent upon you to give us at least some guidance as to what you would like to see as an alternative.
821.
I come back to the other point about the comprehensive system. It is all-embracing - I know that you have not used that term. You have admitted that if you are going to deliver that width, then you will need bigger schools. I would like some guidance from a trade union point of view. Are you accepting that if you go down the route of having schools that can deliver that width of curriculum - and I suppose that you could call them comprehensive-type schools - then there are perhaps greater implications for your members than under the current system of differentiated schools?
822.
Mr McKee: If there is simultaneous reorganisation, the answer quite clearly is "yes". The implications would be serious for the union. The point that we are making about flexibility is that it should be at Key Stage 5, giving the maximum choice of examination systems. We have to have two separate systems. The maximum range of subjects within that system is of crucial importance at Key Stage 5. A narrower curriculum can be pursued up to the end of Key Stage 4. The problem is getting both width and depth in what you provide in respect of extended courses.
823.
One solution which has been put forward by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is to go for sixth-form colleges. We could have schools which cater for Key Stages 3 and 4 and feed into sixth form colleges which could provide that flexibility. There are problems with the sixth-form colleges in England. The terms and conditions of employment in sixth-form colleges are clearly inferior to those in mainstream schools in England and Wales. We would be worried about the development of sixth-form colleges if they were based on the English model.
824.
Mr Hamilton: You want something comprehensive, but you do not offer any real guidance about what sort of system you would like to see come into being. I do not want you to take this the wrong way, but as a member of one of the unions-
825.
Mr S Wilson: An ex-union member, if you keep on the way you are going.
826.
Mr Hamilton: You are from a union which has campaigned for years for the abolition of selection at 11 and which has wanted to see a comprehensive system brought in. Now that that is becoming a real possibility are you not open to the accusation of having no guidance to give, of copping out? People might say that you want rid of it but do not know what to put in its place.
827.
Mr McKee: In one sense the answer to that would be the number of comprehensive systems that can work together. In the past few months I have looked closely at the two-tier system in Northern Ireland. I have also looked at bilateral schools. Strabane is a potential bilateral, but there are others. I paid a visit to St Catherine's in Armagh and was very impressed. Those are two different types of comprehensive systems. They work quite well at present in co-existence with other systems. I would find it difficult to argue for one generic system for the whole of Northern Ireland. As the union has advocated comprehensive education, we would have to go to a good all-through comprehensive or to the two-tier system which was working very well and tell them that they will have to be turned into a very different kind of comprehensive system.
828.
The association has taken the view that the way forward would be to establish the principle of genuine equality of opportunity for all children, not as a vague aspiration, but with access to academic and vocational examinations with real parity of esteem. If we can get a system with that kind of objective we will deliver equality of opportunity, that will be good for the children, but it is not just a desirable objective for children. If we can deliver better equality of opportunity then we will have a better workforce and a better people who live and play together. We do not have that, and the country is impoverished because of it.
829.
The Chairperson: I assume that your membership ranges from secondary schools to grammar schools, and you have difficulty trying to compromise the needs, desires and objectives of those. I have been interested by some public submissions which have strongly advocated the abolition of the transfer system, but they have not finished the sentence. As I understand it, the sentence finishes by saying that it would also entail the abolition of the grammar system. If you are doing away with the selective system then the obvious conclusion of that would be that the grammar system would be abolished. Are others copping out? Are some people only telling half the tale because the second half of it would be a bit unpopular?
830.
Mr McKee: I accept that we have a substantial membership in grammar schools, and we have to be mindful of that. However, the democratically elected members around this table are equally mindful of their responsibilities for their own constituents. We would be acting in the same democratic way. The difference between the transfer system is that that has been seen to be inefficient and failing by academic research as well as by people who are opposed to it. Grammar schools are not inefficient in that sense and have not failed in the same way as the selective system. There is a significant difference there. There are many working- class youngsters who have gone on to good educational opportunities through the grammar school system. It would be churlish of anyone to see the solution as simply abolishing grammar schools. If one were to take that viewpoint that would be confrontational with grammar schools. Inevitably grammar schools would leave the state system, and that would be regrettable.
831.
Mr Scott: Is one of the problems that people talk about the grammar system as they do comprehensive education and that sometimes it is unclear what they mean? Are you in favour of abolishing grammar schools?
832.
I believe that grammar schools were originally supposed to identify a certain percentage of the school of the ability range of the cohort at age 11 and provide that group with an academic education which was suitable for that top 20% or 17·5%. Are you talking about that notion? The system that seems to have evolved is that grammar schools do not do that. If there were, in the French sense, a concours, an examination where the top 20% was lopped off and put in a grammar school, there might be some justification for that in terms of argument.
833.
I believe that in the Belfast area nearly 50% of children transfer to grammar schools. In other areas there is a gross disparity, for reason of gender and for various other reasons. The availability of grammar school places is not based on how someone performs in a test but on the evolution that has occurred in relation to grammar schools. So when you talk about the grammar system I do not think it is very clear.
834.
The Chairperson: I have to say, Mr Scott, in all 40 meetings we have always asked the questions and have never been asked any. Yours is a new departure, and it is a very valid point. My point, however, is that by a grammar system most people will assume the ability for some kind of academic excellence that the grammar schools provide. That is wrapped up into the social infrastructure of Northern Ireland, and to that extent that is the question that I pose. Do people fully realise that when you say we abolish selection we abolish grammar?
835.
Mr McKee: In a sense the answer to that would be to build on the success of the grammar schools since 1947, when access was given to more people from a working-class background, and to make certain that the restricted equality of opportunity currently available is extended. The present system does not give full equality of opportunity, particularly to many youngsters who develop after the arbitrary age of 11. We all know in our own experience - perhaps inside our own families - of people who have managed to "buck the system". In many cases people would say that that is an argument for keeping the selective system, to encourage people to buck the trend. Perhaps they are better people for it. However, for every one who bucks the system and achieves success there are thousands of people whose lives are blighted by it and who feel second class in their own country. That is wrong.
836.
The Chairperson: I only hope that the translators of the official record will hear with clarity the use of that word.
837.
Could you expand on your reservations regarding mixed ability teaching at Key Stages 3 and 4?
838.
Mr McKee: There are extremists who would argue that there should be mixed ability teaching right through to GCSE, and that would be absolutely crazy. If there were a selective system, there could be a very strong argument for mixed ability teaching in Key Stage 3, but in the transition to Key Stage 4 there has to be a determination that youngsters have the aptitude and the ability for particular courses. There would then be the greater facility to move people about, if there were the full range of GCSE and A-level courses on one hand and GNVQ on the other inside the same institution - and that could be a split-site institution. That does not mean that people are segregated. There is no reason why they should not pick and mix between the two. That is desirable. One of the principles lying behind GCSE AS levels is that of ensuring that people do not specialise as scientists or on the arts side, that they keep a reasonably broad course going.
839.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much indeed. May I, on behalf of the Committee, thank you for your presentation today and for our exchange of views. It was very useful, and we look forward to making progress on this important issue.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 15 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Fee
Mr Gallagher
Mr Gibson
Mr Hamilton
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr D Guilfoyle )
Mr B McKee ) Youth Council for
Northern Ireland
Ms C McKinney )
Ms M Young )
840.
The Deputy Chairperson: I welcome you to the Education Committee.
841.
The Deputy Chairperson: This forms part of the Committee's inquiry into the review of post-primary education in Northern Ireland. We appreciate you attending to give the views of the Youth Council for Northern Ireland (YCNI). We have received your papers but you might wish to give us a summary of your points. The members will then put questions to you.
842.
Ms Young: I will start by introducing myself and my colleagues. I am the chairperson of the YCNI. Mr McKee is a member of the YCNI and is the youth director for the Down and Connor diocese. He has been a teacher in the maintained sector and is a youth worker. Ms McKinney is the principal of Vere Foster Primary School in the controlled sector and, as well as being a member of the YCNI, she is a member of the Belfast Education and Library Board's youth committee. Mr Guilfoyle, director of the YCNI, has previously been a teacher in the voluntary grammar sector and is a youth worker.
843.
Therefore, our response has been based on their expertise and experience. The YCNI is set up under legislation to advise the boards and the Minister on the development of the Youth Service, to encourage cross- community activity and to encourage development of facilities for the Youth Service.
844.
Our main sphere of interest and influence is in the informal education sector, both voluntary and statutory. That sector is concerned with the personal and social development of young people. The organisations that deliver that service also provide their work according to a curriculum and key themes that underpin their work, such as the acceptance of others and understanding, values and beliefs.
845.
Therefore, when the YCNI was looking at the effects of the selective system on secondary education in Northern Ireland, it was in that context, which was within our remit.
846.
Mr McKee: I will begin with a thought for the day. Pablo Casals, when writing about education, said that every moment of every day is a new and unique experience, a moment that never was before and never will be again. What do we teach them in our schools? We teach them that two and two are four and that Paris is the capital of France. We should say to them "Do you know what you are? You are unique. In the millions of years that have passed, there has never been another child like you."
847.
That vision of life is a fundamental aim of the Youth Service, which is about the personal and social development of young people, delivered through the underlying principles of participation, acceptance and understanding of others, and testing values and beliefs.
848.
Such a framework aims to make young people aware of their unique gifts and talents and to provide opportunities and experiences for those to be discovered and expressed. We aim to equip our young people with the knowledge, skills and attitudes that will enable them to engage in the task of building an inclusive and equitable society.
849.
The YCNI advocates that any review of the educational system must allow for the development of a closer relationship between the informal Youth Service and the formal educational sector, and the sharing of the skills to be found in both.
850.
How might the formal education sector benefit from the Youth Service? The Youth Service provides an educational experience that allows young people to engage in meaningful programmes and opportunities which promote their personal and social development. That is particularly important now that we are witnessing a reduction in extra-curricular activities. Fewer opportunities exist to engage in activities specifically aimed at personal and social development. That is particularly noticeable at sixth-form level. Up to this year I spent a considerable proportion of my time among year 13 pupils who have had class time deliberately set aside for personal development programmes. This year with the introduction of AS level exams and modules, schools are becoming increasingly hesitant about devoting class time to non-academic activities. Non-examination- oriented activities are being curtailed as teachers come under more pressure to produce coursework and prepare for modular examinations.
851.
Through involvement with the Youth Service, young people, particularly those who feel marginalised from school life, are able to engage in activities which lead to a sense of self-esteem and self-confidence. The work of the Youth Service can complement the work of schools, as youth workers are particularly skilled at reaching young people whom we might term "at risk" or with special needs. My own experience as a youth tutor highlights concepts such as personal and social development which might appear in schools' mission statements, but which are often not recognised as having the same value as academic skills. As such, a real teacher is defined as one who teaches academic skills, rather than one who fosters the softer skills of personal development.
852.
Any new system must accurately promote and value those skills that help in the development of young people's mental well-being. Central to that is the development of an effective pastoral care system, which can be seen as the response to a crisis with an individual child or the "problem" child. It can even be used as a disciplinary measure. A review of the educational experience of young people must allow for the development of personal and life skills, such as self-confidence and self-esteem. The provision of pastoral care in measures such as counselling will be recognised as the right of every young person and not just the "problem" child or the child with problems.
853.
Another area in which the formal education sector might gain experience of the Youth Service is through the development of community relations, particularly through the JEDI (Joined in Equity, Diversity and Interdependence) Initiative. That highlights the need for young people from different traditions and cultural backgrounds to develop mutual understanding, tolerance and respect. Incorporated into the education sector must be the means to develop skills in young people that will enable them to be active contributors towards a peaceful and inclusive society.
854.
Our education system must value emotional intelligence to the same degree as it values and promotes academic excellence and provide the necessary resources in curriculum to that end. Young people are not just the citizens of tomorrow, they are equal citizens in today's society and the builders of tomorrow's.
855.
What would a more proactive partnership between the Youth Service and the formal education sector achieve? First, it would enable a more inclusive and wide-ranging response from the education sector to issues affecting young people. It would allow a larger number of young people access to a wider range of work skills and experiences. It would encourage, where possible, an advocacy role with young people for those who shape public policy, particularly those policies which impinge on young people and the quality of their lives. It would provide a more co-ordinated challenge to Government in relation to the response to the needs and aspirations of young people and the promotion of the principles of equity, diversity and independence throughout the youth sector. It would also facilitate the use of the skills of youth workers in the formal education sector. That would particularly benefit young people who feel that they underachieve, as well as enabling the delivery of a broad and balanced curriculum that aims to develop the whole person and not just achieve academic excellence.
856.
Ms McKinney: We all need to help our young people find their future. The Youth Council's vision for education in the twenty-first century is that all children and young people will have the opportunity to develop attributes, skills and knowledge, in that order, to fully participate as active citizens in an inclusive society. There are many challenges for everyone: the need to establish the learner as the focus of the curriculum; the need to actively pursue an inclusion policy for all young people; and the need to embrace the concept that responsible decision-making is a key skill for learners to help them exercise choice in their future learning goals, thus ensuring a new flexibility in education. The YCNI is committed to the guiding principles of inclusion, access, induction into society and holistic education, which includes building economic capacity. A fundamental appraisal of learners' needs in the twenty-first century is required, because learning is a lifelong process.
857.
Page three, point six of our submission suggests that a better balance is needed between academic achievement and personal fulfilment. The YCNI is committed to the code that society can only be viable if all its citizens perceive themselves to be included. Too many young people have experienced marginalisation, alienation and exclusion. Therefore education must focus itself on the development of skills and talents in all children and young people.
858.
There must be equality of opportunity in the school curriculum. While academic achievement should be cherished, the needs of those who do not flourish in that manner must be met. We need to concentrate on preparing young people for employment and helping them acquire new skills which will enable them to take their place in a demanding economic climate of change. That means that we must re-examine the initial teacher training programmes and the current provision made to "upskill" undergraduates in those areas. There is a role for professional youth workers to assist the teaching profession in paving the way forward. It is widely acknowledged that Youth Service personnel have unique skills which should be welcomed by the formal education system.
859.
Research also needs to harness and examine the way in which adults and children learn. The question of multiple intelligence needs to be closely addressed. For example, are we differentiating appropriately with children in the classroom? Do conventional tests inflate the worth of knowledge beyond its market value?
860.
In the conclusion of the Gallagher/Smith report it says that the starting point for exploration ought to be the social, educational and economic objectives which young people should achieve from their experiences. The Youth Council for Northern Ireland is committed to empowering young people and engaging them effectively in their learning. Therefore we seek a curriculum which fits that purpose for all learners.
861.
Ms Young: That concludes the formal presentation. Our director Mr Guilfoyle has additional information if you wish to clarify matters or hear some examples.
862.
The Deputy Chairperson: A number of members have indicated that they wish to ask questions.
863.
Ms Lewsley: I welcome your submission, particularly Mr McKee's introduction. You talked about marginalised young people, the issue of self-esteem and self-confidence and how those can be improved and young people motivated. You also mentioned children with special needs. How can the deficiency in young people's social skills, which you highlighted, be addressed in a system of post-primary education? What suggestions do you have for improving the system for special needs pupils?
864.
Mr McKee: With regard to a broad and balanced curriculum, my experience in schools is that the breadth is achieved through the range of academic subjects offered to young people. In some ways the balance is missing in that. A broad and balanced curriculum should include a breadth of experiences as well as academic skills; that is what we said about the Youth Service.
865.
Young people on the fringes are most often attracted to youth centres and to youth work. For example, if I am doing personal development work in a school I will be warned about certain pupils. Yet those are often the pupils who I am helping because it is relevant to their experiences. We need a curriculum that is relevant to young people, particularly to those with special needs. There are schools and youth centres that work in partnership to provide a more balanced school curriculum.
866.
Mr Guilfoyle: I worked as a teacher and then as a youth worker in north Belfast, and many of the young people I worked with there could be described as being more marginalised than those I worked with in a voluntary grammar school. I soon became aware that my teacher training had not prepared me for dealing with marginalised young people. We did a quick audit of our colleagues in the various education and library boards and in the voluntary sector. In Coleraine, for example, there is a student support scheme in which teachers and youth workers work with a group of 10 young people between the ages of 12 and 14 to improve their attitude to school. It focuses on their behaviour, their self-confidence and improving their relationships with teachers. In Antrim, work is being done with young people who risk being excluded from school. The Youth Council, along with the social services and the Probation Board, is working to improve their self-esteem and self-confidence.
867.
The LAMBS (learning anger management and behaviour skills) programme is teachers and youth workers working together to address behavioural problems in schools. Self-confidence and mental well-being are closely linked, and that link brings us into active contact with the Health Service. We have conducted research in that area and find that it must be addressed. It will help young people's social development, which will manifest itself in better academic achievement.
868.
Ms McKinney: There is a belief that marginalisation simply happens once children have reached the age of 13 or 14, but I can identify in primary school the children who will become marginalised. The primary schools' curriculum is so tight and so skewed, particularly at Key Stage two, that there is no time to offer the broad and balanced curriculum we need. We have a mission statement to the effect that we will do it, but the Department of Education's demands on us mean that we have to do something else. Although some teachers have been trained specifically in special needs intervention, it should part of initial teacher training. A teacher might get some training on marginalised children in his or her undergraduate programme, but not enough.
869.
Rather than starting to address the problem when the children are 13 or 14, we must begin to address the curriculum's deficiencies in the early years of primary school. We welcome the emphasis placed on initial teacher training and the lack of special needs "upskilling" for undergraduates by the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA).
870.
Mr McElduff: First, Mr McKee, what did you mean by "emotional intelligence"? Secondly, we in the North should learn and benefit from the good points in other systems, one of which is the transition year at year 10 to 11 at the ages of 14 and 15. Pupils can take time out from academic pursuits and are encouraged to look at pastoral and personal development and career orientation. Does the Youth Council have a view on that?
871.
Mr McKee: I have taught pupils in secondary and grammar schools who have obtained A grades at A level and who could barely form a sentence. Outside the academic environment, those pupils had little self-esteem or self-confidence and they would be lost in the jobs market.
872.
I have also taught young people in the secondary sector who were classified as having failed, yet who are the most self-confident young people you could ever meet. Emotional intelligence is about building up that sense of self-esteem and self-confidence, so that we produce young people who can engage with other young people in society. They know who they are, they have confidence in who they are and can play a major role in building up society. Year 13 was mentioned, and there are several ways of looking at that. Some people talked about it as the "doss year" or the "easy year".
873.
Mr Kennedy: That would make interesting reading.
874.
Mr McKee: However, when I look back on my own experience in lower sixth, often that was the year in which people began to grow up. They began to talk to teachers as people. Lots of different experiences were provided that went way beyond the academic sphere. It was a chance for both intelligence and emotional intelligence to grow. My experience now is that that year is being squeezed more and more. There are more pressures, especially with AS level. There is constant demand for modular work. It is difficult to get time for that, so the Youth Council would not have a set policy on a year-out year. It would, however, be for providing much more of a balance of experiences for young people that go beyond academic.
875.
Ms McKinney: With regard to Mr McElduff's point, I am speaking in a personal capacity because the Youth Council does not accept policy on that. There is a tendency for secondary schools to do a lot of work in that area. However, my understanding is that less is done in grammar schools, where it may be modularised. The level of underachievement - 62% of students in north Belfast left school with no secondary qualification - means, however, that we have to hook into the grammar system so that it too can see the worth of that type of work. At the moment, there is still a dichotomy.
876.
Mr Guilfoyle: The Youth Council is very aware of the Assembly's proposals for a Children's Commissioner and other related strategies, which we understand are designed to ensure a more joined-up approach to the needs of children and young people. I hope that it is clear from what we have already said that we believe it to be desirable that sectors such as health, education - formal and non-formal - the Probation Board and social services should work together. That seems to answer Mr McElduff's point. Young people gain experience inside and outside school, in youth services et cetera. A holistic approach would be to develop what I would loosely term a "personal development plan". In the year you mention, there may be a specific focus on that. I take the view that, right through from primary school to university and beyond, some mechanism is present for tracking people and providing the support to allow them to gain experiences that will remedy gaps in their academic, vocational or personal training.
877.
The Deputy Chairperson: Several members wish to speak, so perhaps they would keep their questions brief to allow us to get through everybody's.
878.
Mr Gibson: Here is an education system that can do great things for able children, yet one of the points raised in the Gallagher/Smith report was the long tale of underachievement. Does that indicate that something is wrong with the present system? How would underachievement be defined? Have we perhaps defined it incorrectly?
879.
Ms McKinney: The Youth Council is committed to all young people fulfilling their potential. Underachievement in the current schools system is caused by not offering an appropriate curriculum for all students. The departmental approach to the curriculum, particularly in post-primary education, is still inclined to be subject specific. Underachievement is firmly linked to marginalised youth and the notion of achievement as performance success, and the curriculum may need to change in order to tackle that. However, with underachievement also comes the whole notion of disaffected youth and the lack of parental expectation. We cannot simply throw money at that problem to try and improve it. It demands a complete review of the post-primary curriculum to ensure that the holistic development of the child is engaged. We can measure academic success but it is hard to gauge qualitatively if a child's self-esteem has risen, so indicators have to be put in place to value and measure it.
880.
Mr McHugh: What do you see as the gaps in the education system? You mentioned that values and beliefs are among the core issues. Our society has difficulty with people's values and beliefs - that is our environment. You also mentioned life skills; you can educate young people to a high standard but they are still failing miserably at life skills. Where are the gaps appearing? Perhaps we are expecting too much and the time spent at school contributes to the problem.
881.
Mr McKee: Some gaps could be narrowed if a stronger partnership existed between the Youth Service and the educational sector. When it comes to testing values and beliefs, the service adopts a joined-up approach towards community relations through the JEDI initiative, which looks at the principles of equity, diversity and interdependence. All the different sectors are joining together for one initiative, and the education sector is part of that. In many ways that is a unique experience for Northern Ireland because we can learn from one another.
882.
It has also been recognised that different sectors have different skills, and when it comes to young people's personal development the Youth Service and workers can play a significant role. Part of the difficulty is when it is seen as a one-off event. At the end of the third term, with a couple of weeks remaining, we will wheel in a youth worker to deliver a course on self- esteem. However, if it were part of school life and not just a one-off event young people would be reached as early as possible.
883.
Ms Young: When discussing our response to the selective system, we studied the Programme for Government and looked at the document on unlocking creativity. It became clear that society and employers were referring not only to hard skills and the competence that young people need to be able to work and participate in higher and further education, but also to what are called the "softer" skills. They need to be able to solve problems, work in a team, identify and manage change, take responsibility for their decisions and contribute to planning.
884.
They would be skills that the Youth Service and youth workers would try to develop with children and young people. That is a significant part of any informal education that should become more mainstream. The practicalities and pressures that schools are under to deliver results must be recognised. It is much easier to deliver results in subjects than to show that working with children on teambuilding and problem solving will produce anything tangible that you can measure in a table of achievement for the school. That is where the difficulty lies for the Youth Service and also for the Committee to come to a conclusion.
885.
Mr Hamilton: Ms McKinney talked about the appropriateness of the current curriculum and that it was not meeting the social needs of children - I believe she said it was inclined to be subject specific?
886.
That perhaps fits in slightly with what Ms Young has just said. Is the curriculum like that because today's society demands it? Society demands that pupils leave school with academic qualifications far beyond what was required in the past. I know of jobs that I could have got as an 18-year-old with two A levels that would now require a degree.
887.
Schools are only meeting the needs of the wider population and wider society. If they did not do that they would be accused of letting children down because the children would not be able to obtain the academic qualifications that employers look for. You do not get to talk about your "softer skills" at an interview unless you have the necessary qualifications to be called for interview.
888.
Ms McKinney: Feedback tells us that many graduates are going into industry who are not equipped to manage other people; they have no creativity. Many employers - as well as research including the Gallagher/ Smith report - are saying that academic success is to be cherished. However, academic institutions are churning out graduates that do not have the skills to solve problems, to get on with other people or to negotiate. In contrast to that, other research has been done that shows that employers want graduates with those skills. Society will need a marriage of sorts between quantitative and qualitative in the future.
889.
Mr Hamilton: The average secondary school offers 35-45 teaching periods in a week. How will that time be divided? How much will be allocated to the "softer skills" and pastoral element and how much will be allocated to academic classes?
890.
Ms McKinney: I do not see there being any difference in the time allocated to academic and the pastoral elements. For example, problem solving should permeate the curriculum through the subjects taught. The problem is that the pastoral dimension is seen as a safety net locked in behind the academic curriculum. That needs to be turned on its head. Teachers need to ask themselves how they can incorporate problem solving, negotiation and managing into their subjects. It can be done.
891.
Mr Hamilton: It is being done at the moment in the secondary education sector. I was doing it up until a few months ago while teaching English.
892.
Ms McKinney: There has been a tendency to modularise the pastoral life skills approach into a separate part of the curriculum due to the demands of A levels, AS levels and GCSEs. The hidden curriculum is, in fact, a complete part of the curriculum.
893.
The Deputy Chairperson: We have five minutes left so can we keep the questions short?
894.
Mr Gallagher: You talk about the ideal system that provides the most suitable options for every individual and about the scope for transferability between those chosen routes. How do you see that working in practice? I presume that you mean that a pupil could transfer if they realised that they had a talent in a vocational or academic area.
895.
Mr McKee: Part of the difficulty is that we are asking young people to make decisions that will rule out a number of choices at too early a stage. The number of choices available to young people could be kept open if we had a system that somehow valued the wide range of skills and intelligence that people have.
896.
When I was teaching in a grammar school, I noticed that there may have been someone who had spent five years at a secondary school, but who could not go any further because that school did not offer A levels. The student then opted to transfer to the grammar sector, because that seemed to be the place to go if you wanted to pursue academic excellence. The system needs as many avenues as possible for young people to explore, in order that options by the age of 13 or 14 are not automatically restricted. At 13 or 14, people are only beginning to learn who they are. All of a sudden they are expected to make choices that will affect them for the rest of their lives.
897.
The Deputy Chairperson: Points two and three of your submission mentioned "transferability between chosen routes" and "equal status" for different routes. Many different terms are being used in that area - the Labour Party is using the term "specialist routes", and we have "different routes" in Northern Ireland. Does your document imply that you accept that post-primary education should be delivered through institutions that reflect those different specialisms? In Northern Ireland we have the grammar and secondary routes that are both vocational and academic. When parity of esteem between those different routes is mentioned in your document, is it implied that there should be institutions that reflect those different routes?
898.
Mr McKee: That is what we are saying. Rather than setting in stone the nature of those institutions, we are saying that whatever is there should be valued equally. Secondary schools should be equally as valued as grammar schools, as should their pupils.
899.
Mr Fee: Should selection for the 11-plus be done using continuous assessment?
900.
Ms Young: We have discussed that, and it is a valid question. However, our expertise is not in the formal education system, and that is why we framed our response in the context of the role of the Youth Council and our own beliefs. We did that because there are those in the Youth Council who are positive about the 11-plus, and others who are not. Many Youth Council members work with children and young people who have not benefited from the 11-plus, and those members have serious reservations about it. As a council, we felt that we were not in a position to comment on the 11-plus because our expertise is not in that sector.
901.
The Deputy Chairperson: We have a couple of late entrants to the session. I would like to welcome the Chairman, Mr Danny Kennedy, and Mr Ken Robinson.
902.
Mr Kennedy: I would like to apologise for my late arrival to the meeting - it was in no way a snub. The Youth Council considers it important that young people make submissions on the issue. Are you satisfied that they have had adequate opportunity to make submissions to the review?
903.
Ms Young: I was going to conclude our session by offering the Committee the opportunity to consult with young people, and which we could facilitate. We feel that young people should be involved in consultation and we have also carried out some research, which Mr Guilfoyle might like to comment on. If there is no time, we could forward that research to the Committee. We have been collating the views of young people, particularly teenagers.
904.
The Deputy Chairperson: We do not have time today but it would be useful if you could make that research available to the Committee.
905.
Mr Guilfoyle: Last October we facilitated a presentation given by a group of young people from diverse backgrounds to the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee. What the Chairman is referring to is our capacity to bring together a group of young people who represent diverse views and to support them in making a presentation to the Committee at a future date - if that would be useful.
906.
Mr K Robinson: It is interesting how we have constructed what we used to describe as a straitjacket. We talked about it and now it has come to pass. We have arrived at a situation where there is no joy for pupils or teachers in our system. That begs the question "How do we climb out of that particular pit?" Ms McKinney suggested that there must be more proactive engagement between the Youth Service and the education system. Briefly, what do you feel that entails?
907.
Ms McKinney: We need to go back to initial teacher training again. There needs to be a review of the training programmes. We have an opportunity to bring in officers from the Youth Service to talk with undergraduates in their initial teacher training period, creating a sense of harmony between the Youth Service and the education system. However, managers of schools need to be shown the expertise that the Youth Service currently has. The Youth Service needs to talk itself up. It may be in the informal sector but it is an educator, just like the teaching profession.
908.
Mr K Robinson: You have moved beyond the woolly jumper stage?
909.
Ms McKinney: Yes, we have.
910.
Mr K Robinson: Do you feel that you have a professional expertise that has not really been brought to bear?
911.
Ms McKinney: Yes.
912.
The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for your submission. It would be worthwhile if the written results of your research could be forwarded to the Committee.
913.
Ms Young: I wish you well in your deliberations.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 15 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Fee
Mr Gallagher
Mr Gibson
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Sr Christopher Hegarty RSM ) Catholic Heads
Association
Ms G Pehigrew )
Mr J Stewart )
Mr R Tierney )
914.
The Chairperson: I now welcome representatives of the Catholic Heads Association to our evidence session on the review of post-primary education. I invite you to give a short presentation, and we will then follow that with some questions.
915.
Mr Tierney: Thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee. Our starting point is a concern for all young people, not just those who attend grammar schools. The primary objective for each of us - politicians, educators, trustees, governors, education boards and others supporting education - must be to ensure that all schools are highly regarded by the communities they serve. No school, or group of schools, should be regarded as better than any other as a result of the outcome of the selection procedure. The objective of all schools enjoying equality of status, with the resourses necessary to deliver high-quality education and meeting the diverse needs of all our young people in a manner which ensures that each child is given every opportunity to develop his or her talents, must drive forward this review to what is hoped will be a satisfactory conclusion.
916.
In recent weeks there has been a growing appreciation of the complexities within this debate. The Minister's announcement this week of a delay in the publication of the review is welcomed by us.
917.
We acknowledge the mature interchange of ideas, the initial hysteria having subsided. Most contributors to this debate are taking a very sensible, strategic and long-term view. The present educational system has made a considerable contribution to our community, though we accept that it has flaws. There is a need for change, and any change will have a significant impact.
918.
There are so many interrelated issues, given the complex nature of our school system. Furthermore, there are features within our schools - tradition and ethos - which we would wish to preserve. However, no aspect of the present system should be retained if its retention is at a cost of disadvantaging others in the system. Grammar schools have made a positive contribution to removing some of the social divisions that have existed in our society. However, some young people have been affected by what has been regarded as "failure at 11". No child should feel any sense of failure at any stage in his or her educational career.
919.
We also accept that many young people have been encouraged by the results they have achieved in the transfer test. That encouragement has enabled them to achieve a level of success that would not always have been achieved. Many young people have come to grammar schools with no tradition of academic study, from families where the daily struggle to survive left little opportunity to engage in so-called academic pursuits. These young people are able to feel equal to those who hitherto seemed to enjoy a privileged position in society. Speaking personally, and I am aware of members of this Committee who have shared this experience, I know that it was success at 11 that lifted our hopes and gave us the confidence, as well as the means, to aspire to significant positions in our community. Whatever conclusion this review comes to, we must ensure that such opportunities continue. Indeed, it is one of our major concerns that our educational provision must provide equality of access to all, irrespective of social class, wealth or any other advantage.
920.
In all-ability, multi-purpose comprehensive schools many bright young people at 11, from the more socially disadvantaged groups, do not achieve the levels of success that young people from similar backgrounds achieve in our grammar schools. There is much evidence to confirm this - from English comprehensives, the Scottish system and schools in the Republic of Ireland
921.
I will stay with this theme of advantage and disadvantage and examine a belief that education, in its present shape, favours a particular section of society. It is imperative that we serve the widest possible educational needs, and herein lies one of the most significant weaknesses of the present system. The curriculum, as presently structured, is primarily successful at addressing the academic needs of those who wish to pursue an academic education. It does not address adequately the vocational needs of our young people. I realise that other needs such as personal, social, moral, physical and religious are satisfied to varying degrees in our schools. It is only at post 16-level that we find the vocational and educational needs of students being addressed in a more positive and constructive manner. For many young people this is too late. For some students their educational experiences at Key Stage 3, and perhaps even at primary school level, have left them disillusioned with education.
922.
The core issue, providing a real focus for this debate, is not grammar versus secondary. Instead, it is that the grammar sector achieves more success than the secondary sector because of the type of curriculum that is available and is the beneficiary in the transfer process. Why do we engage in a selection procedure, then expect young people to follow a very similar curriculum at different schools? For many young people our schools are not attractive and we need to ask why. If all schools deliver a common curriculum, simply eliminating selection and replacing it with an emphasis on choice does not address the issue. Choice in the current context is likely to be based on factors such as the schools reputation for academic success, rather than the basis of the schools ability or resources to meet particular needs of the students attending.
923.
In that context it is unfair to expect a secondary school to compete for students against a grammar school. Furthermore, affording grammar schools the luxury of protected enrolment numbers places secondary schools at a considerable disadvantage.
924.
Accepting that the context in which choices are made must be altered, our existing stock of schools is unlikely to change without a massive capital expenditure programme, and I do not believe that is possible.
925.
I should like to focus on changing the curriculum. I acknowledge the current review of Key Stages 1 to 4 and the developments at post-16 level. In addition to content changes, there is a need to place more emphasis in primary-school provision on identifying pupils' abilities, strengths and interests, something the curriculum must reflect.
926.
We must develop better forms of assessment in primary schools. There must be more consultation with the parents of their pupils, particularly regarding the options at post-primary level. We are not convinced we need to change the age of transfer. There are very strong arguments to continue with existing practice. Perhaps I could mention one very practical concern in this area. For pupils to attend a small rural primary school with one or two teachers for longer than seven years cannot be regarded as desirable or adequate preparation for the move to secondary level. That is not intended as any criticism of the primary-school teachers in question, who do an excellent job in very difficult circumstances.
927.
If the concept of choice in post-primary education is to have any impact, we must develop meaningful alternatives at secondary level. How might this be put into practice? The strengths of existing schools could be retained with some providing education of a more academic bias which would continue until at least GCSE level, and other schools would provide a curriculum placing more emphasis on vocational and technical education. We even advocate the removal of the titles "grammar" and "secondary".
928.
All schools within the system must enjoy equality of status. Indeed, every effort should be made to make the vocational and technical provision even more valued than a purely academic route. Of course, we envisage its leading on into higher education, with more emphasis on applied courses at third level.
929.
Convincing parents to afford parity of esteem to the various options available is surely a major task for all. I believe it is not as difficult a challenge as some would suggest. It is misleading to believe that all parents desire their children to attend grammar schools. Many already exercise their right to opt out of the transfer procedure, and current figures indicate that 32% of parents in the Western Board area have done so.
930.
Most parents make decisions based on their child's best interests. The number of parents dissatisfied with the current system is significantly lower than some have suggested, though I do not use that as an argument for retaining the status quo. Providing good quality choices goes a long way towards satisfying the demands of most parents and young people.
931.
We believe that it is the future shape of the curriculum which is important. We must provide a curriculum that engages all young people, and only when that has been achieved will we be in a position to make final decisions about structures.
932.
I know the Committee is looking at educational systems in other countries and ask it to bear in mind that such systems have not developed from the same starting point. We already have a somewhat unique system in place in Northern Ireland, and the difficult task facing us is how to create an alternative to the present system taking full account of our starting position. The task ahead is building on our current strengths - some which are not present in other countries' arrangements - and establishing a system providing real alternatives which fully address the wide-ranging needs of those students we endeavour to serve.
933.
The implications for these proposals are in many respects far-reaching but nonetheless manageable. We are also aware that young people's needs do not remain constant as they progress through school life. Opportunities for increased mobility between schools must be established to allow interchange based on the premise of changing or developing educational needs.
934.
In conclusion, we recognise we are engaged in a process which will shape education for generations to come. As an association we wish to affirm our commitment to contributing to it in a constructive and meaningful manner.
935.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much. I have one question and please understand that this is not personal or loaded in any sense. I read with interest your consultative response to the review body, and we have listened to your representations to this Committee. How difficult is it for you as an organisation given that the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), the Catholic hierarchy and the political representatives of the Catholic community in the shape of Sinn Féin and the SDLP appear to be at variance with your views?
936.
Mr Fee: A grossly unfair question.
937.
The Chairperson: That is why I asked it here.
938.
Mr Stuart: I accept that it is a difficult one to answer. From my perspective I must point out that voluntary grammar schools - which includes the schools that I represent here - are the trustees of the school. The school's board of governors is a much more important factor than what you referred to as the stance taken by political parties and the Catholic Church. I do not see any difficulty with that. I have no difficulty in reconciling myself with the comments that have been made this morning, and I am prepared to be independent and speak about them in any quarter - be it secular or non-secular, religious or otherwise. I can see what you are getting at, but I am happy to accept that there has to be an independent approach to this. If you look at many parts of England and Scotland, political parties, the Catholic Church or the Catholic hierarchy have not influenced the comparable schools there.
939.
Mr Tierney: I do not think what we have said is that much at variance with the CCMS and the Catholic hierarchy. We may have a task to educate some of the political parties about what our views are.
940.
Mr Fee: Dodgy territory.
941.
The Chairperson: I thought you were reading from the Ulster Unionist Party manifesto.
942.
Mr Tierney: We expressed those views to the Catholic bishops when we met with them, and they were very receptive. If you read the document from the hierarchy it is certainly not at variance with what we said this morning.
943.
Mr Gibson: There are a couple of points that intrigue me, and when I asked the directors of education these questions during their presentation I got various answers.
944.
You pointed out correctly that the central issue in this debate is how we educate children. Then you made the statement that we should not rush into introducing changes without any real focus. You made the point that the whole debate has suddenly become about structures rather than about education and that we must get it right. Out of the discussion with the directors there came one phrase which I found interesting. It sounds like a cliché, but I want to test you with it: "diversity of provision to provide equality of opportunity". It came from one of the directors - I do not remember which one, but it certainly was not the one in Omagh. How would you respond to that statement? How do we provide the best education for every youngster? How do we achieve that?
945.
Ms Pettigrew: I believe that the statement you just quoted probably summarises very well what Mr Tierney delivered in our submission. Our feeling is that the children have a huge range of different talents, strengths and interests. The present common curriculum operates as a straitjacket for many children. It does not give them the opportunities - certainly from 14 years old and onwards - to develop that.
946.
Of course, the key problem at the heart of what you said is that for historical reasons in society the perception of parents and many people is that we are not currently talking about different systems but something that is better than another. Therefore there is a huge responsibility - no matter what change results from this debate and discussion - on everyone to ensure that the wider public and parents are informed, for example, with regard to the value of the alternatives to a very academic education. In many other countries technical and vocational options are highly valued and respected. When children and parents choose those they are not seen as opting for second best. Therefore they have diversity and equality as well.
947.
Mr Gibson: What are you doing to inform the general public that this is about education and not structures? Every meeting I went to evolved almost immediately into a structures debate. Education was not in the equation. If we are to bring the focus back to betterment, improvement and higher standards, what are you - probably one of the most influential groups to come before the Committee - doing?
948.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: It is a difficult matter, even in the current context of strongly academic schools that have diversified and offered vocational education.
949.
Take GNVQs, for example. It really is an uphill struggle to convince parents that there is genuine parity. It will happen when the universities begin to recognise that those students who did GNVQs do equally as well as other undergraduates. It is a very slow process. We depend on many other people to make public statements and upon employers being educated too. There is a limited amount that we can do. We must do it with the parents.
950.
It all hinges on this because if we are serious about diversification and equality of opportunity there must be a genuine appreciation that it is equal. There is an awful long way to go. For example, if we make a rough comparison with the German system where vocational education enjoys a much higher status, it is better resourced, and employers are trained to meet standards if they take young people on. We do not have a similar basis from which to start.
951.
Mr Gallagher: First, for the record - and this goes back to your question, Mr Chairman - the SDLP, lest there be any misunderstanding, recognise and respect the work being done in the schools that these people represent. We have always been very clear about that. We disagree about certain things, but the point is that we welcome the opportunity to discuss and debate these matters today. That has consistently been our position. It has not just cropped up at the table this morning; it goes back a long time.
952.
Mr Tierney mentioned the opportunity for increased mobility between schools. I presume that he meant in particular the different types of schools that exist at secondary level. That is a good thing. In my view mobility has been pretty much a one way thing. It comes from the secondary sector and benefits the grammar sector. There has been little if any mobility the other way.
953.
We are now in a situation, bearing in mind parity of esteem, where your schools have to spend time - very valuable teachers' and pupils' time - doing vocational things as part of A level such as assessing key skills, literacy, numeracy and ICT. Bearing all that in mind, what do you mean when you talk about increased mobility? Do you still see it following the trend that we have had or have you any new ideas about increased mobility for the benefit of both sectors?
954.
Mr Tierney: Well, I will take that a little bit further. You mentioned mobility being a one-way process. In some cases, it has been a two-way process, and pupils have gone from grammar to secondary.
955.
Mr Gallagher: Very small numbers.
956.
Mr Tierney: Very often it happens for the wrong reasons. Very often it was because they were failing. That certainly was not something that we would want to support. Your question comes back to the whole issue of the curriculum and the choices that are available and the strengths of the school. These are linked. We cannot look at any aspect of this in isolation. We cannot look at mobility and movement between schools without looking at the programmes that are available within the schools.
957.
There are secondary schools that have tremendous strengths, strengths that grammar schools do not have. Those should be highlighted, and parents should be made fully aware of the strengths of the school. If a child progresses through either of the school systems that we envisage, and his parents become aware that he would be better located, in terms of the options that are available to him, the child then could move across. It is very much about informed choice.
958.
However, when we talk about informed choice it goes right back to primary school. This is something that we would like to see developed much further - the whole processes of choice that ought to take place at the pre-secondary level.
959.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much indeed. May I remind members that our time is limited and encourage short questions and clear responses.
960.
Mr S Wilson: I have just two or three short questions. First, you rightly identify that there will always be some element of selection when people are transferring. It is unrealistic to have an educational system without some element of selection. In your paper you criticised the present system of selection. Will you give us some ideas - if we are going to continue with selection and if it is inevitable - how that selection would be effected, especially if you are going to have different schools in the post-primary sector?
961.
Secondly, you touched on the whole question of parity of esteem between the different systems at post-primary level. What practical steps do you see being taken to ensure that parents, employers and the inspectors who go to the schools - I think they are the ones who least need to be convinced, according to Gallagher - promote that parity of esteem between the different school systems?
962.
Mr Stuart: Perhaps I could take the issue of parity of esteem between different school systems. It strikes me that it varies a lot in Northern Ireland itself. In some areas secondary schools are held in very high esteem. There are instances that I have come across of parents - not for the wrong reasons - choosing to move a child to a secondary school because it provided the type of education that led towards the possibility of an HND at the University of Ulster. The parents recognised that that was the way forward. There is some evidence that that situation is already there, to a certain extent.
963.
Mr S Wilson: The scramble for school places after the 11-plus, especially in the greater Belfast area, would indicate that that is not always the case.
964.
Mr Stuart: It is probably more of a rural example. A considerable time needs to elapse and within that time, there ought to be resources provided for those non- academic schools which will provide the technical/ vocational style of approach.
965.
These schools should be given the resources so that they are held in very high esteem by parents and by those "movers and shakers" in our society - if I can use that term - who will inevitably make the decisions that influence other people in the choice of schools.
966.
Mr S Wilson: It is not just a question of money. Very often secondary schools are getting most of the money through targeting social need funds, and so on. Can this really be eradicated by throwing more money at schools?
967.
Mr Stuart: It can, in a selective way. Of course, it was very focused and prioritised, not necessarily in the area of special needs but as regards strengths that schools could identify and which they could use to identify themselves as schools held in high esteem.
968.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: Up until now, the curriculum at Key Stages 3 and 4 has been very prescriptive for both schools. In the last couple of years, the school has been able to disapply at Key Stage 4. That is beginning to be worked on in the same way as the post-GCSE GNVQ became developed in some schools as something that could attract both able students and students who were felt to be unable to do A levels.
969.
There could be an imaginative look at the kind of vocational courses at GCSE level that would really engage students who are not turned on by the present GCSE. It is something to do with seeing the difference that it makes and then having properly set up resourced courses; and students who would not normally come to school being able to come to school, attend, apply and achieve.
970.
That is the way to build it up so that it will lead on to respectable post-GCSE courses. Parents will then begin to value alternative routes as something that can really engage their children. What we are really saying is that youngsters who are lost in the system are lost to all of us and to the whole economy and society. Up to now, the effort has been put into maintaining academic, GCSE courses rather than into the research for other types of courses.
971.
Ms Pettigrew: With regard to the first point you raised about the primary school, within the present system there is an opportunity for a request to be made for special consideration. Those involved in that will know that, when that is the case, a wealth of information comes from the primary schools in relation to different assessments in order to support the view of the primary school about suitability or otherwise of the child for the kind of academic education.
972.
At the moment the current transfer procedure does not build on or use to best advantage the ongoing assessment that is present within the primary school. By developing the present system, there could be information available to parents to help them make the kind of informed choice we would like to see.
973.
Mr McHugh: You are very welcome and your views are also very welcome, even if the idea of educating Sinn Féin, as a party, to your point of view is maybe not so. But you can try your skills on the Minister if you like. Even the Deputy Chairperson will tell you that Mr Barry McElduff and I are only his henchmen.
974.
You said that the 32% in the western area have not gone ahead with the transfer process. Is that reflective of parents not wanting to put their children through that process and ending up failures as the large percentage does? How do you see that being resolved if we do not move from what we are now? Grammar schools would be happy enough to continue with what we have at present or some sort of selection process.
975.
Grammar schools have focused on academic education to the exclusion of life skills and personal and pastoral education. We have discussed the selection process at length, but what direction will education take after selection?
976.
Mr Tierney: There is no information on how the figure of 32% is arrived at. Many parents make an informed decision. It is not a question of failing their children, as parents are fully aware of their child's abilities and know that a certain kind of education is not suited to him or her.
977.
You said that the emphasis in grammar schools is on academic education at the expense of personal and pastoral education. Grammar schools pay as much attention to pupils' personal and social development as do secondary schools. All schools concentrate on preparing children for life. Their emphasis is not purely on the academic. Secondary schools must deliver the same curriculum as grammar schools, yet those children are told at 11 that they are not suitable for such a programme.
978.
Mr McHugh: How did we reach 32%? Is that normal?
979.
Mr Tierney: It is normal. It is always around that figure.
980.
Mr Fee: Grammar schools seem to have been the victims of their own success. No one doubts the standard and quality of the education provided in grammar schools, and we should do nothing to impair it. Nonetheless, many parents and children want access to that type of education, and therein lies the problem. I accept that you fully recognise your responsibilities to address equality and social justice. That is the nub of the debate. The consensus seems to be that the 11-plus is too flawed to continue.
981.
Should we move to selection based on continuous assessment or should we keep an academic test? There are first-class, all-ability, non-selective, co-education at secondary schools in Newry and Armagh which are oversubscribed every year. Should we not replicate that to have selection in schools rather than selection between schools?
982.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: We recognise all the evils of the 11-plus system when children are leaving primary school for secondary school. Primary school education must be re-examined and provided with better resources to offer a broader curriculum for children who opted out - or who were opted out - under the 11-plus system at an early stage. Such a curriculum would be a better way of assessing what stage children are at, and parents and schools could then advise them. We do not envisage, at least in the early years of secondary education, a conflict between academic and vocational education.
983.
Perhaps we could have all-ability learning for the first three or four years. Children will then opt for the subjects best suited to their strengths. The proposed curriculum at Key Stage 4 has removed the prescription which was in force for a number of years, and it tells schools that they can tailor their curriculum to suit children's abilities. If every school is doing that, there must be a way in which they can identify particular strengths, work towards them, and advertise themselves on the basis of those strengths.
984.
Mr Fee: As happens in the German model?
985.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: Not necessarily. The German model is really separating children at age 11. No one would be talking about children choosing vocational or academic education routes before age 14. However, if schools are going to develop a variety of models from ages 14 to 19, you cannot have every school setting out to meet the needs of a broad section. There must be a need for schools to develop particular programmes. The school you mentioned in Ballygawley, or the school in Armagh, have been particularly successful, but the emphasis has still been on the academic side and trying to fit all children into the academic side. We are now looking at the option of offering a broader range of education.
986.
There must be a way in which schools can have particular specialisms. This would enable parents and children to make choices based on the kind of thorough assessment the children would have at age 14 of their abilities and how best to meet their needs in the future.
987.
Mr Fee: So would the common curriculum be dropped at a certain point?
988.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: If, according to the new proposals, the common curriculum is to be dropped, and schools are given the option to create their own curriculums, will they choose a whole range of vocational and academic subjects, or will they specialise?
989.
Mr Tierney: You talked about schools in Keady, Ballygawley and Maghera as examples of schools that have achieved a considerable degree of success. However, they did not have to fit into an existing structure, and one of the complexities of this issue is trying to fit a system into an existing structure.
990.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: The demographics and the location of the schools are important factors also.
991.
Mr Stuart: In areas of falling population, one all-ability school should be able to cope with the full range of opportunities, but that would depend on the demographic structure.
992.
Mr McElduff: Go raibh maith agat. It is always interesting when you, Mr Chairman, interpret the views of Sinn Féin and the SDLP. I say that in a neutral way.
993.
The Chairperson: And vice versa. I have had that experience too.
994.
Mr McElduff: I have had a very good experience of coming through the Catholic grammar system. Perhaps that is an indictment in some peoples' minds of the system. However, for me it is a commendation. I can appreciate the real concern on the part of education providers about the pace of the debate. The Catholic Heads Association might reasonably want to say "Slow down, hold on a minute, let us look at this in a much more deliberative way over a longer period of time". I can appreciate why you would say that. Nonetheless, would the association accept that there is an urgent need to get rid of the 11-plus as it is a source of trauma and great distress to families and teachers. Would you accept that in the short term we should be moving, without delay, to put that in the dustbin of history?
995.
Mr Tierney: We would agree with that. I said at the outset that we are not here to defend the transfer test as it currently exists. We want to emphasise the fact that no child should feel any sense of failure. We are particularly aware of this sense of failure when we get phone calls from parents who are very disappointed after places in schools have been allocated. We have to explain how a child with a C1 or a C2 result gets into a school, yet the child next door with the same qualification does not. It is particularly difficult when a child may get into a school on the basis of the fact that he is older or that his father may have been a past pupil. The criteria are very arbitrary, and they create injustice.
996.
Mr K Robinson: I refer to your comments about more consultation with the parents of children at primary schools. I am a former primary school principal who spent hours, days and weeks advising parents about the benefits of secondary schools. However, the parents would not take my professional advice because they always held out hope of their child getting into a grammar school. I was slightly surprised to find children with C1s and C2s getting into grammar schools. That is not beneficial to the child, to the school that the child goes to or to the school that was denied that child.
997.
The Department of Education is trying to encourage parents to take reasonable steps to look at their child's ability and then to choose the options available to the children in the future. Everyone knows what the academic route to a grammar school entails. We talk glibly about vocational schools. That is bandied about all the time. What is your understanding of vocational education, and how do you see it develop when and if the present system is changed?
998.
Mr Tierney: The first part of your question relates to the primary school principal and how he or she tries to guide parents' choices. It is difficult for primary school principals to guide parents because there are no choices to be made. The parents are not making choices. The choices are made for the parents by the outcome of the transfer test. Any talk about choices in the present system is unrealistic.
999.
If there were choices to be made the menu does not offer a lot of choice. At present, what the secondary school is offering does not differ very much from what is available in a grammar school.
1000.
We must look to the future and examine the options and the sorts of programmes that will be available to young people in the non-academic sector. There are no solutions to that. There needs to be a lot more research into what vocational education is available and what the vocational needs are. The needs of society, employers and skills that young people going into the world of employment need - be it ICT or practical skills - must be identified. Society still needs tradesmen, and young people are not adequately prepared for those kinds of, what I call, professions. A plumber is now paid a professional rate.
1001.
The public needs to be educated, but the debate has moved on a lot in the past six months. The question was raised earlier of what can be done to move the thinking of the community forward. However, I think that the community's thinking on this issue has moved forward considerably. When we began our report there was an anti-11-plus, almost anti-grammar school feeling. We felt very much under attack. However, people are now standing back and taking a more objective view. People are now looking at the long term needs of all young people.
1002.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: There are differences between an A-level business studies course and a GNVQ business studies course. One is theoretically based and the other involves working on case studies from businesses, going out on ongoing work experience and meeting people from businesses who come to the schools. There is more of an insight provided into how the different aspects of businesses are run.
1003.
The same thing applies if we talk about built environment and, for example, an A-level technology course. Models show the differences between the GNVQ and the GCSE or A level routes. We should build on the situation where children see more relevance in what they are learning and are in more day-to-day contact with the realities of the work place and the people who are involved in it. The children can learn from real life experiences rather than from a teacher. It is a different experience, and it is hoped that vocational education fires the child with enthusiasm. Core elements will have to be examined in both areas, but a curriculum that engages the pupils is the difference.
1004.
Mr K Robinson: The proof of the pudding is at the school gate. When two mothers meet outside and their children have gone down the two routes you have just described, who comes out on top?
1005.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: In my school they both come out on top. The difference for parents is seeing youngsters who were disaffected becoming interested.
1006.
Mr K Robinson: You see that from an educational point of view. However, if two parents are talking at the school gate which parent is puffed out with pride as her child is doing a course which is deemed in her eyes, and possibly in the eyes of society, as more valuable?
1007.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: We are talking about all schools as secondary schools rather than a commonality in Key Stage 3. You mentioned trying to advise parents in primary schools. If parents have a choice between grammar and secondary they will aspire to the grammar school because it is perceived to be better.
1008.
Mr K Robinson: In the Greater Belfast area there is a pecking order of grammar schools and a pecking order of secondary schools. The parents know that pecking order regardless of what part of the city they come from. That is why I say the proof of the pudding is at the school gate as many decisions are made there rather than in the principal's office.
1009.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: It is a long process.
1010.
Mr S Wilson: Have you noticed a change in attitude at higher-education level towards GNVQ and A level?
1011.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: Yes. In the beginning schools found it very difficult because they encouraged young people to study these courses but when they went to open days people would say that they had never heard of them, or the admissions officer would know about them but the department would not. Queen's University has made great strides. Initially the University of Ulster came on board before Queen's did. Some students have gone down the GNVQ route into Queen's University to follow psychology courses. GNVQs are subject specific so if someone takes a GNVQ in business they will follow a business-related course. With the University of Ulster there may be some isms about paramedical subjects because they may ask if there is enough science involved and if an A level was taken along with it. However, they are improving. The universities in England made the change very early.
1012.
The GNVQ grading has now been changed to come into line with A level. Prior to that the grading was a distinction, merit or pass, and no one knew if a distinction was an A, B or C. Now A levels will have the same modular system as GNVQs. The key skills have now come from GNVQ to A level. It will make a difference to see youngsters becoming interested in those courses, but it will be slow.
1013.
Mr Gibson: I know I have only 30 seconds, but for the edification of everyone, can you explain briefly the bilateral system in Strabane?
1014.
Mr Tierney: Strabane does not have a Catholic boys' grammar school. There is a girls' grammar school, and there are two secondary schools. Their plan is to educate all levels with an all-ability secondary school. I assume that there will also be a form of selection and that children will be selected for a grammar-type stream school if we retain the existing system.
1015.
Mr Gibson: The story is that they have retained the separate grammar school or they are running a parallel grammar school to it.
1016.
Mr Tierney: You will know more about it because you are on the board of governors of one of the schools.
1017.
Sr Christopher Hegarty: In Strabane the grammar school had 460 pupils, with 60 students at A level. St Colman's boys school had about 900 pupils. The issue was being able to provide a suitable A level course.
1018.
The students will be put together in one building with three separate units - Key Stage 3, Key Stage 4 and a post-GCSE unit. Within the Key Stage 3 unit 25% will be selected on the basis of the outcome of their 11-plus examination. The school can be compared to Maghera or Lagan College.
1019.
Mr Gibson: It will have one school uniform but three different levels.
1020.
Mr Tierney: I also note the new site and building. That is a huge capital investment.
1021.
The Chairperson: May I express my thanks to all of you for your presence here today. It has been a very interesting exchange of views.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 15 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr J Stuart )
Mr J McBain ) Secondary Heads Association
Mr J Wilson )
1022.
The Chairperson: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the reconvened public session of the Education Committee, at which we are taking evidence on the transfer procedure. It is my pleasure to welcome representatives from the Secondary Heads Association.
1023.
Mr Stuart: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to make these comments. The Committee has already seen our responses both to the review body and to the questionnaire you sent to me some time after Christmas. I sent a seven-page response to the Committee, and I shall therefore not bore you with much detail. You may want to ask us a large number of questions.
1024.
The Secondary Heads Association represents mainly principals, vice-principals and senior teachers - or should we call them assistant heads? - in schools throughout Northern Ireland, mostly in the grammar sector. It has some 140 members.
1025.
We spoke to the Committee last year before the review body was set up. We wish the very best education for all our children, and we want you to recognise the achievements of the schools that we represent.
1026.
There are many deficiencies in the present set-up, particularly that the transfer system itself appears to be badly flawed. There is a need for significant change. We are only too aware of the distortion in the primary school curriculum.
1027.
We also realise that, in some geographical areas, only As - and indeed not all the As -transfer to a grammar school because of the shortage of places. That strikes us as being very unfair. We also recognise the bitterness, rejection and failure, and the accompanying loss of esteem, that present grades engender in pupils and parents.
1028.
We make a number of suggestions. By and large, we opt for the tripartite system. We recognise, for example, that the present curriculum for secondary schools is simply not suited to the majority of their number. It is too academic, and it certainly does not suit them. That is why we emphasise the importance of having academic, vocational and technical schools.
1029.
We also emphasise the importance of parity of esteem for all schools on the part of parents. The absence of the transfer examination would leave a completely new situation with which schools would have to deal in due course.
1030.
I hope that gives you a flavour of our feelings on the issue. I want to be as brief as possible because I recognise that the thrust of questioning often brings about a more detailed response than I can give at this stage.
1031.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much.
1032.
How can parity of esteem among academic, vocational and technical schools be achieved?
1033.
Mr McBain: I had the opportunity to go to a German Gymnasium on a head teacher visit My impressions of Bavaria were that there was parity of esteem among the different types of school.
1034.
Such a situation has come about over time and because parents recognise that there are two pathways that can lead to desirable outcomes for their children. I do not have an answer to your question, but I have a comment. It will take a great deal of time, for certain perceptions are deeply ingrained in the community and must be changed. That is perhaps not the answer you are seeking. However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
1035.
If schools offer different curriculum pathways, which are seen over time to lead to equal opportunities for employment and career development, you will arrive at the German situation. I cannot see any legislative or other device that would bring that about in the short term.
1036.
The Chairperson: You are probably aware that members of the Education Committee also looked at German models of education. Given the ethos and culture of Germany, how should we apply those to Northern Ireland? Have you any suggestions for a process? Is it a case of using money?
1037.
What other methods could we use to enhance schools' status?
1038.
Mr J Wilson: Certain failings in our system have been recognised. We must start by looking at the failings of the current system and how it can be developed. Eventually we must look at the whole system. The common curriculum was one of the greatest mistakes. I believe that more strongly than my two colleagues, for I am the principal of a comprehensive school, one of the non-grammar head teachers in the Secondary Heads Association.
1039.
When the common curriculum came in, non- grammar schools felt that they had to compete with grammars. The league tables reinforced that; we were all in competition. As a result, the non-grammar sector pushed its pupils - particularly at the top end - very hard, for those were the pupils who would get the results to move the schools up the league tables. That left a tail of pupils who could not cope with the common curriculum and became disaffected. That made them disruptive and the reputation of schools started to suffer. Therefore there is an imbalance between the idea of the grammar being a good school and the non-grammar being full of rowdies; even though there are not many of them, the school is labelled. Parents, communities and society form opinions of schools, not from the results achieved, but from how children act on their way to and from classes, how they act on buses and how they talk about the schools at the dinner table.
1040.
A school can get a poor reputation quickly if it has a group of pupils that is disaffected - pupils who set off fire extinguishers, for example. To enhance the reputation of that school, you must remove the disaffection, starting with the curriculum. Therefore we must cater for all pupils: the academic pupils; the middle-of-the-road pupils who are not quite sure what they are good at until a later stage; and also pupils who are less academic - those are the pupils for whom the common curriculum has not catered.
1041.
Mr Stuart: The Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) has a new Key Stage 4 curriculum in the pipeline - possibly operating from 2003 onwards - which will be much less prescriptive than at present. It will be less academic and sufficiently flexible to allow schools to choose options and emphasise vocational key skills such as Information and Computer Technology (ICT), rather than purely academic ones.
1042.
Mr Gibson: Thank you for your presentation. I should like to see how you conducted your discussions.
1043.
Is 11 the best age to consider transfer? You suggest three routes: academic; technical; and vocational. What do you mean by "technical" and "vocational"?
1044.
Mr Stuart: Age 11 is used throughout the United Kingdom at the present time.
1045.
When you move into year eight at any post- primary school, you begin to specialise in areas such as languages or the sciences. It is the type of specialisation that, with all due respect, I do not think a primary school can really contribute to. We must remember that we have many small primary schools particularly in rural areas, where teachers take composite classes - two or three year groups in one class. I do not feel it is appropriate.
1046.
Mr Gibson: Is there any empirical evidence to support your view of transfer?
1047.
Mr McBain: Not that I am aware of.
1048.
The Chairperson: Can you answer the second part of the question?
1049.
Mr J Wilson: Eleven is the generally accepted age because the majority of schools go with it, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. However, you could run a school for five to 18-year-olds where there is no transfer at all, and that must be considered. It depends on whether you are prepared to take a gamble.
1050.
I define "technical" as encompassing more manual occupations such as those of electricians, plumbers or construction workers, whereas "vocational" leans more towards service careers such as nursing. You do not necessarily need different buildings for the three routes - you can put the three routes under the one roof. One of the challenges for the group will be how it provides equal opportunities throughout the Province while retaining present structures. It could be that, in rural areas, all systems will come under one roof, whereas in an urban setting such as Belfast, you might have schools specialising in different areas like the city technology colleges in Britain.
1051.
Mr Stuart: Mr Chairman, you asked about the age 11. It is worth remembering that in England there are still significant numbers of junior schools that straddle Key Stage 2 and Key Stage 3. However, they are declining because it is recognised as inappropriate to have that throughput at that stage.
1052.
Mr McElduff: You state in your submission that some form of selection is necessary and that greater use should be made of continuous assessment and advice from teachers, principals and parents. How would that work in practice? I am particularly interested in what weight you would attach to parental opinion. Mr Gibson referred to empirical evidence; reports from parts of Europe show that parents are inclined to encourage the placement of their child at slightly above its level of ability. How would you protect against that?
1053.
Mr Stuart: You make the point that parents seem to have that perception. I suggest to you - without sidetracking too much - that it is the pupils who make choices at 11. Therefore, how do you influence choice? Removing the transfer examination means removing the whole structure, which, at present, results in an exaggerated sense of what you regard as the ability of the people concerned. I agree that you have got a void -a vacuum - but no one seems yet to have addressed that completely yet.
1054.
The advice of the principal in those circumstances would be held in greater esteem than it is at present. At present, regardless of whether we like it, the good professional advice coming from primary principals is being overshadowed by the grades of the transfer exam.
1055.
Mr J Wilson: I concur. As a comprehensive school, we test pupils as soon as they come through the door. We also visit all the feeder primary schools and talk to the primary seven teacher rather than the principal. We have a rank order on paper before we even test the pupils, and it is amazing how accurate that is. We place them into sets after streaming them. We receive virtually no complaints from parents - some will make enquiries about why their children are in a particular stream. One of the advantages is that there is a chance of movement after exams in January and June. Although the movement is not great, we take pride in having got it right first time around. Parents seem to be reasonably happy.
1056.
Mr McBain: Where there are schools of different types - academic, vocational and technical - there will always be selection. The issue is how that selection is made and by whom. Where it is based on an exam, with the perception of pass or fail, you will be left with the problems currently identified. Where selection becomes a matter of choice and the parents and child are central to it, acting on advice from the primary schools, you have a totally different educational environment in which to work. My mind goes back to a time when there was such a thing as guided parental choice. It was an effort at transfer that was experimented with only to be set aside.
1057.
It is curious that guided parental choice, for the short time in which it featured as part of the Northern Ireland educational system, was as effective at identifying children suitable for different types of schools as anything we currently have. I have in mind my father, a primary teacher and principal who lived through it. It is an idea that bears exploration and development. As my colleague has said, the notes he receives from the principals of primary schools are exact. It possible for primary seven teachers and primary school principals to express a view about the suitability of children for particular types of education that is as accurate as achieved by any other means.
1058.
Mr Stuart: Those of us who have experienced special circumstances - and will undoubtedly over the next few weeks have requests for special circumstances - asked for extra information. The quality and quantity of information regarding pupils, which primary schools are able to provide, is remarkable. They could do a super job in that area if they were allowed.
1059.
The Chairperson: No doubt other members will return to that.
1060.
Mr McHugh: Certain grammar schools make the claim that the step up to third-level education is easier from a grammar than any other kind of school. Do you agree? Do you feel a new system of selection will resolve the problem of disruption and the long tail of those who do not achieve?
1061.
Mr McBain: As the head of a grammar school, I can only report what I hear about the long tail. I understand from research evidence and that of the Department of Education's Inspectorate that a great deal of effort has been put into addressing the lower end of the ability range - with some success. The most recent performance indicators from secondary schools show that the tail exists as before. The indicators are very similar to those for comparable secondary schools in Scotland and England. I hope the tail is historic.
1062.
The step up to higher education, as I am sure you will understand, has been made more straightforward by 'Curriculum 2000' and the parity of esteem afforded to vocational and academic A levels. Those who have opted for further education at, for example, the end of Key Stage 4, can now go into further education, and by taking advanced level GNVQs they can get into higher education. We therefore have parity of esteem from those two pathways.
1063.
Your question was whether a grammar school makes the transition to A level easier. Grammar schools have specialised to a greater extent in preparing children for higher education. They have developed the skills to do so, and the evidence from schools is that we do that very well. In grammar schools we have staff and traditions that have been honed to get youngsters into university.
1064.
If it is easier, it is because we are practised. I do not know whether it is structurally easier - I simply feel we have staff who have refined the necessary skills to make that possible.
1065.
Mr J Wilson: I disagree totally. I do not disagree with what Mr McBain has said, but with the suggestion that the transfer from grammar school to higher education is easier than from secondary school. It can be difficult to go to higher education from a secondary school without a sixth form, for it is a transition from secondary school to a grammar school or further education college. Generally people go to a grammar school where there is a small number of people entering a large sixth form.
1066.
Coming from a secondary school with a sixth form or from a comprehensive, it may be that the school mirrors life better than the elite grammar school. I would hate to try and diminish the positive effect that sixth formers have in an all-ability school. We use them a great deal for tutoring or helping us with younger children. They see the difficulties of those with lower ability.
1067.
In many ways they are slightly better prepared for life when they leave that system, in which case they might find it easier to cope when they bid school farewell. That is not to say that grammar school people do not, for they are successful when they go on to higher education. However, you should not consider that it is easier moving from a grammar than from the secondary sector.
1068.
Mr Stuart: Perhaps I could add a point to that. Ten years ago the vice-chancellor of Queen's said "GNVQ - what is that?" The present vice-chancellor is only too well aware of what a GNVQ is, and he holds it in high esteem. In that sense there has been some movement.
1069.
On the issue of disruption, we are talking about the sort of disruption perceived by parents, and, whatever choice is made in the future, certain schools will be seen to have a number of disaffected pupils. I suspect that that is what you were referring to. How do we address that problem? Is that not a different problem from what we were looking at in terms of secondary education? Or are they linked?
1070.
Mr McHugh: There may be an earlier stage to it.
1071.
Mr K Robinson: I am sorry that I was late for the meeting. Can I ask Mr Stuart to tease out the vocational role again, as we did this morning? Your colleague, Mr Wilson, referred to the plumbers and other people whom we cannot find when we need them. You mentioned the German situation. In Germany, given the way their society is structured, there is equal esteem. A craftsman is such because he has gone through a very strict educational regime. He will have his title - "Meister" of one thing or another - on a plaque outside his door, which he will polish every morning. Everybody knows where he fits in society.
1072.
Is there a role for the institutes or colleges of higher and further education that come lower down the scale? They could perhaps provide the opportunity for young people to go on to develop IT skills in modern technologies. Perhaps there is a role for our existing secondary schools to specialise in those skills - not necessarily manual skills but also the commercial variety; for example, training for shop assistants.
1073.
What always strikes me about Germany is that a shop assistant knows how to serve people correctly. She has been trained to do it, and she is good at it. In Belfast, it is a case of "What's your problem?" Shop assistants here are not trained properly.
1074.
Ms Lewsley: Why is it only "she"?
1075.
Mr K Robinson: The men are worse. I am referring to the mythical "she".
1076.
Do we need to enhance the type of skills training schools currently offer to those young people who are disaffected because the curriculum is not what they need? Presumably we are going to change the curriculum to suit such people, but could we give them the appropriate skills and by doing so raise those individuals with talents? As for myself, I could not nail two pieces of wood together. I do not have that skill, so I value the person taking apart my bathroom at the moment for his skill in a situation in which I would not know where to begin.
1077.
Such a person has a skill, without the social enhancement his skill should bring to him.
1078.
Mr J Wilson: I agree. The application we have been working at over the last two years has taken that route. We have been in partnership with further education in respect of our fourth-form and fifth-form students, and they go to the institute in Newry one day a week. They can choose between 20 options, including hairdressing, reception, retail, joinery and construction. The students select six areas in fourth form and specialise in those for NVQ at fifth form.
1079.
It has been very successful, both in pupil attendance levels and satisfaction gained.
1080.
Mr K Robinson: Is it focused?
1081.
Mr J Wilson: Yes. I do not want to harp on about disaffection, but much of it comes from situations where, for example, students age 14 have uncles who are joiners and that is what they want to be. They ask themselves why they are learning French, history, or geography when they want to be joiners. There is a need for further education to have an increased role in such situations. There is also a need for schools to increase their role in developing citizenship skills in young people. To an extent, that matter is being addressed. However, the challenge will be to pull together the work of the CCEA and the review body into a system for Northern Ireland. It is not a matter of copying the system in Scotland, Germany or in the South - it is a matter of developing a system that will improve what we have at present.
1082.
Mr K Robinson: Do we have an opportunity in that we are now being told we have almost reached full employment? Some of us were put into grammar schools because they were nice places to go. We got nice jobs at the end, our hands were clean and we were never unemployed. Parents valued that because they had either worked at dirty jobs or had been unemployed.
1083.
The Committee visited British Telecom several weeks ago, where I spoke to a gentleman who had come up through the old technical education system. He had reached the top of the tree as far as social respectability was concerned. He was socially accepted, had a job for life and was a pillar of his community. He had succeeded along that trail, and I am sure that success lies out there for others if we could find the right trail for them. They can get the right jobs and the life skills, they can develop their talents and be happy in their work, and they can put something back into society, which we require.
1084.
Mr J Wilson: That is the challenge.
1085.
Ms Lewsley: The Committee visited Germany, and I was disappointed in their system since they believe it is still selective. Many of the children are presented with certificates, and your entry into the Gymnasium depends upon having such a certificate. Otherwise, you end up going to the Realschule. The other issue for me was the lack of flexibility between the two education routes. The only way students seem to be able to move is down.
1086.
The Bavarian Minister of Education thought that parents had too much involvement and too much to say. She would like their influence to be curtailed.
1087.
Moving on, I should like to return to issues raised by Ken Robinson. I maintain that you are still talking about selection in part of your submission - about how pupils are streamed upon entry to first year. What annoys me is that those children are taught together from primary one to primary seven. They all have different levels of academic and vocational skills. Why then do you have to separate them so dramatically when they go to secondary school? Most of them do not mature very much until they are about 14 years old. That is only my personal view.
1088.
Another issue is the failure of equal social recognition to be given to a skilled joiner and somebody who has taken an academic route. That is society and culture in Northern Ireland. It is not simply about choosing a vocational or academic route; there should be flexibility between the two. Someone who wants to do IT vocationally can still follow the academic path and take subjects such as French. If there is to be a radical overhaul of the system, can you foresee a time frame for implementation? I hope we shall see that in the coming months or years. Moreover, how can public confidence be secured when implementation occurs?
1089.
Mr J Wilson: First, the review body is not starting from a greenfield site. Structures are already in place, and I presume there is no bottomless wallet to do whatever needs to be done. Presumably the structures will have to be utilised as best they can. No matter what is decided, the review body perhaps needs to come up with more than one recommendation. It could then be costed and have a timescale applied before implementation. Then you finish up with a system that is better than what we have. One danger is an acceptance that our system is currently very good without being totally acceptable. Therefore, if we throw it out and implement change for change's sake, we finish up with a system that is not as good as what we had. We must not pick an option simply because it means change.
1090.
Ms Lewsley: That answers the question, but I do not agree. However, I accept we should build on what we have and make that accessible to everybody, whatever their potential. That is the problem.
1091.
Mr J Wilson: Make what accessible to everybody?
1092.
Ms Lewsley: If we are talking about a vocational route, then we should make that accessible to everyone - make it flexible so that people can choose the vocational and the academic. Moreover, we should afford it the same recognition.
1093.
Mr J Wilson: We all agree with that.
1094.
Mr Gibson: Did we start the debate the wrong way round? We should ask ourselves "What is education and what is our purpose?" rather than debating structures.
1095.
Mr Stuart: That is a philosophical question to which I am not sure there is a direct answer. However, I liked the idea of "What is education?" because one could talk about that all day. The culture of education in this community and the understanding of it, its prestige and its importance are very high. The same is true of Scotland. I may sound prejudiced, but I do not believe it is as high in England.
1096.
Mr K Robinson: May I suggest that it is not as high because unemployment is not as significant a factor of life in England as in Scotland and Northern Ireland?
1097.
The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. We look forward to further meetings as our inquiry progresses.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 15 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr G Irwin )
Mr I Arbuthnot ) National Association of
Head Teachers (NI)
Mr A Greenwood )
Dr D Hamilton )
1098.
The Chairperson: The Education Committee welcomes the National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT). This afternoon's session is somewhat male- dominated, but I can do nothing about that. You are here to make a presentation on the transfer procedure, and we look forward to the opportunity to exchange views and ask questions. This is a recorded session, so feel free to be indiscreet.
1099.
Mr Irwin: The association appreciates the opportunity to come here today. The NAHT is made up of head teachers and deputies. It has changed its name to the Association for School Leaders because across the water there is a new position of assistant principal, and it is likely that there will soon be a similar post in Northern Ireland. The association represents all phases of education - with pupils aged three to 19 - so we believe that we are very well equipped to deal with the issue. I wrote our submission on behalf of post-primary and primary principals. We made a joint submission, which is clear from the title.
1100.
I will outline the key points of the submission, and we will then answer your questions. The NAHT in Northern Ireland believes that selection should be abolished for a number of reasons. Since its inception, the selection procedure has been divisive and exclusive. In the second paragraph of the report, we make the point that selection identifies a percentage of pupils to benefit from a particular type of education. That group then progresses to higher education and the remainder will leave education at the statutory age. In the third paragraph we stated our belief that selection is outdated, outmoded and unsuited to our present needs. We do not believe that seven years of primary experience can be tested by two one-hour papers.
1101.
We do not believe that the test can accurately predict a pupil's future performance. Two of us represent the non-selective sector, and we could cite many cases where this flaw has been apparent. It is difficult to specify what selection measures. It definitely skews the primary sector's curriculum, and my colleagues from the primary sector will testify to that. The test is incompatible with, and a barrier to, the development of the curriculum in the primary sector. Perhaps most importantly, it fails to focus on the child's educational needs. We believe that it has not met the changing needs of society and the economy.
1102.
When we were examining the Gallagher and Smith report we also looked at the Gardner and Cowan report 'Testing the Test'. On page 2 a doubt is expressed about its fitness for purpose of selection. It does not meet the requirements of international standards in educational testing. Over the page it says that Sutherland found in 1990 that
"at best one in seven and at worst one in five candidates were misplaced by the tests".
1103.
From the report again, it is not officially known what the test measures. Therefore, we believe that our reasons are educationally sound and sufficiently compelling for prompt action to be taken. Selection at the age of 11 should cease.
1104.
Our submission deals with the pastoral aspect of school life too. We state that all schools are responsible for the pastoral care and welfare of their pupils. However, selection can undermine the ethos of a school and the principles upon which any system of pastoral care is built. The reasons are stated in the report. It places children under stress. We believe that it devalues the majority of children. It does not provide for the development of the whole person.
1105.
We point out the exclusion created by the selection procedure. It fosters neither the concept of inclusiveness nor the notion that all children are equally cherished by the education system. It ignores the fact that boys mature later than girls. It does nothing to improve the equality of access to life opportunities.
1106.
I turn now to personal development and self- esteem. Selection undoubtedly - and some of us have seen this - dents the confidence of children who are deemed to be unsuccessful by the procedure. In the non-selective sector we have to start rebuilding their confidence. We want to avoid anecdotal evidence, but both Mr Arbuthnot and I can give many examples of young people who come to non-selective schools after failing in the eyes of society at age 11, go through all the stages of education and are extremely successful. Those pupils are successful in many ways - not just academically in that they can complete degrees and PhD courses, but also as entrepreneurs and in other ways. However, we will steer clear of any anecdotal evidence. We believe that the test damages self-esteem and confidence. It does have a bearing on the child's emotional and educational development. It does create and perpetuate a feeling of failure. It leads to feelings of inadequacy.
1107.
I conclude with our recommendations. Transfer to post-primary education should continue to take place at age 11. We note the Dickson Plan that operates in the Craigavon area, and we understand that there is a minority belief among some members of our association that it would be more beneficial for pupils to transfer at the end of Key Stage 3. However, a process of parental consultation, professional guidance and external moderation is needed.
1108.
The balance between urban and rural areas must be found and there must be an examination of alternative school structures in the context of the abolition of selection. Different pathways exist, including vocational and academic routes, but the NAHT believes that all children should be able to access and benefit from both.
1109.
Any system which might be put in place must command the wholehearted allegiance of teachers, parents, pupils, business, industry, commerce and other sectors of society. It must be thoroughly planned, generously resourced and be seen as an investment for the future.
1110.
The NAHT believes that the brightest pupils in society must continue to be challenged and that all children should be encouraged to achieve to the maximum of their ability. There must be equality of status between the academic and vocational paths and the term "vocational", as it is currently understood, must be redefined.
1111.
The appropriateness of the common curriculum must also be examined; a review of the primary and post- primary sector curricula is going on at present. The association's guiding principles are that there should be equity of access, appropriate consideration given to the impact of delayed maturation, and parity of esteem accorded to all young people, irrespective of ability. The association also stresses that the educational experiences of young people are valid and relevant, that there should be equality of status between academic and vocational routes and that a genuine concept of inclusiveness is vital. The association is also guided by the principle that all decisions must be based on professional guidance, assessment, pupil aptitude, ability and choice and input from parents and parental consultation.
1112.
Education must not be constrained by the existing structures. Any possible structure must meet the educational and other needs of all young people. The structures must ensure equality of status and parity of esteem if they are to gain widespread credibility, respect and success in what must become a new education dispensation.
1113.
The Chairperson: I understand that you are advocating a comprehensive education system. How do you avoid creating a "bog-standard" comprehensive system? How do you remove the possibility that certain grammar schools might walk on their own by becoming independent, thus creating a rich man's club for education, based on American Express.
1114.
Mr Arbuthnot: You used the term "bog- standard". Secondary schools are doing everything they can to avoid being deemed "bog-standard". The fact is that we can educate children ¾ whom society has deemed failures ¾ to a standard in excess of the potential which the normal distribution curves suggest they possess. There is excellence in many controlled and maintained secondary schools in the Province among children who have been deemed failures. The lack of social esteem and self-worth of those children is a result of that system. Yet they are still reaching standards far beyond those predicted by the normal distribution curve.
1115.
I have recently heard reference made to fine grammar schools. Grammar schools are receiving a good deal of praise by comparison to the other schools in which, it is said, standards need to be improved. That is very wide off the mark. People need to look at what we are doing.
1116.
The Chairperson: Therefore you do not accept Alastair Campbell's description of comprehensives as "bog-standard".
1117.
Mr Irwin: Most certainly not. Northern Ireland's education system is more similar to the comprehensive model than people are prepared to admit. I can identify a grammar school that accepts children who have got a grade D in their transfer test. I concede that they do not accept too many children who have a grade D, but if there is spare capacity they will fill up, because it is all about money. The more children that they enrol the more money they will have in their budget, therefore they will admit pupils who have scored as low as grade D. Ostensibly, they call themselves a grammar school, but as far as I am concerned, they are a comprehensive school because they accept pupils who demonstrate the full range of ability.
1118.
I am not knocking grammar schools because I was educated in the grammar school system, but I can recall - not many years ago - an advertisement by a prestigious grammar school for a special needs teacher. We have a comprehensive system here, but people do not like to admit that. Many of our grammar schools that cannot reach their full capacity with children who get As or B1s or B2s will accept those with C1s and C2s, and if they have to accept grade Ds to reach their enrolment capacity, they will do so.
1119.
The Chairperson: Does anyone want to address the risk of independent schools?
1120.
Mr Hamilton: I am not too concerned about whether a school is labelled as comprehensive, secondary, grammar or independent, but I am concerned about the quality of the relationships in each school. I teach in a truly comprehensive school ¾ a primary school. We have children from all backgrounds and of all ability levels. Our school can be described in four words: "providing opportunity" and "realising potential". Regardless of their location, every school must provide opportunity for children and realise the potential of the children who are enrolled.
1121.
We do not want to throw out the baby with the bath water. We want to provide the opportunity for children to be high-fliers, but we also want children to have the opportunity to grow at their own pace in a way that will encourage them. We want them to embrace a number of courses. Mr Irwin referred to specific grammar schools. I call to mind a number of grammar schools which narrowly escaped getting into the raising of school standards, some of which comprise A-grade pupils only. I am also concerned about the fallout rate from grammar schools where pupils were encouraged to leave in the pre-league table days, and we thank you for that. In those days there was a certain massaging and preparation of the figures before they became a reality.
1122.
We must look at the quality of provision in Northern Ireland. We must consider geographical distribution. What suits Ballycastle may also suit Kilkeel or Fivemiletown and might be delivered with success. However, in Dungannon, for example, pupils with gradesA to D might gain entry to particular grammar schools because of a decline in particular sections of the community. That is in contrast to schools in this area where a pupil who gains a grade A has choice as opposed to preference. Therefore, we must instil the notion of choice in the range of opportunities available to pupils and schools.
1123.
Mr Greenwood: I also work in the primary sector, and I endorse Mr Hamilton's comments about the ideals for primary schools in Northern Ireland. We are finding it difficult to perpetuate those ideals when this system is grafted on to the primary sector. We are both in the process of picking up the pieces after D-day, when the results come out. There are many damaged children who, for one reason or another, have been graded with a 'D'.
1124.
One document was much more perceptive and damning than the other. In one, it is made clear that the test itself cannot possibly have any credibility. This is a system in which in children can score maybe 60 or 70% in a practice test, but when they sit the actual transfer test they discover that, because of certain circumstances outside their control, that mark is the equivalent of a grade D.
1125.
When I was at school, if I had scored 65 or 70 per cent, I would have thought I was pretty hot stuff. The results can have a psychological effect on the children. The skewing of the primary curriculum from P4 to P7, when it is incumbent upon us - because of the marketing system that schools are currently undergoing - to produce the goods in the primary system, demeans the hard work of teachers, parents and principals. In short, the status quo is not an option, there must be change.
1126.
Ms Lewsley: In your introduction you mentioned that the transfer to post-primary education should take place following a process of parental consultation, professional guidance and external moderation. How do you see this working in practice, and what do you mean by external moderation? What role do you see the teachers and principals playing, and what arrangements would you propose to ensure a meaningful involvement of parents?
1127.
Mr Kennedy: It is a corker of a question, isn't it?
1128.
Mr D Hamilton: Parents and, more importantly, children must be involved in any scheme. The children in my own school are certainly well equipped to be involved in that decision-making process. While it would be contrary to the present system, I have considered directly involving the children, along with their parents, at the time of the parental interview. My children in primary seven are as mature as I was when I left grammar school to go to Stranmillis College to become a teacher, and that is saying something.
1129.
Ms Lewsley: How do you envisage the process of parental consultation working in practice? What do you mean by external moderation? How do you get teachers and principals and parents involved?
1130.
Mr Hamilton: In my own school, and in my last school in Cullybackey, an exam to transfer pupils from primary school to post-primary school was not needed. In my own school we could easily transfer pupils and achieve as much success, if not more, than we have under the present scheme. However, any system is only as fair as it is at the margin. How can we ensure that the weakest child in my school is well placed against the strongest or weakest link in neighbouring schools? I clearly remember my days as a vice-principal, when my principal expected me to rank the children in order. I had thirty-six pupils in my class. A new entrant to my class was ranked as thirty-third out of thirty-six, and the pupil's mother came up to the school with a great head of steam because her child had always been in the top three in her class at her last school.
1131.
We should have some form of continuous assessment, as we have in schoools at the moment. At my school, parents are consulted twice a year, and they receive a written report at the end of each year. Parents are well aware of their children's progress. As pupils approach the 11-plus stage, schools should be in a position to state that children would be expected to be at a certain level to gain entry to those schools. If they make an application, it would be on the understanding that there will be evidence, perhaps externally moderated material.
1132.
The funding for the non-grammar sector should be generous enough to provide an adequate level of staffing to deliver the needs of those children. For instance, if there were 30 pupils per class in a post-primary grammar school, why could that not be 15 pupils per class in a non-grammar, non-selective area, to provide for the individual needs of those children? That is what I am about.
1133.
Mr K Robinson: It has been fascinating to listen to you, because you are talking from experience. As a Committee we value that more than anything else. You are telling us what it is like to be at the chalk face.
1134.
Looking beyond the mechanics of the transfer procedure as we know and love it at the moment, your submission refers to vocational education and training. Can you define "vocational training"? We are using that as a label, yet it means 100 different things to 100 different people.
1135.
Mr Arbuthnot: There is a major danger there. To be frank, I do not think that any of us really know exactly what we mean by that. I understand that some of you have been to Germany. How can we say to a child of 11, "You are going down the vocational route; you are going to be a plumber or a bricklayer or whatever", without taking in to consideration maturation and how they can change.
1136.
We do not want to become anecdotal, but as George said, we have children who come to secondary schools as perceived failures - their parents, families and society see them as failures - and they are not supposed to get anything out of the experience, yet they go on to further and higher education and do very well. At the age of 11 it is too early to think in those terms. The vast proportion of what we teach in schools - English, maths, social studies, history, geography, languages - is unimportant. What are these children going to be doing? Dovetailing joints, fluidics, pneumatics or computers? You cannot rubbish what we are all operating and the thinking processes that are going on now. You need an element of that all the time.
1137.
Mr Irwin: We take your point. We use the concept and definition of "vocation", and maybe we need to revisit that term and redefine it. It is probable that everyone in this room has a view and a definition of the term "vocational". This came from Sean McIlwee of St Patrick's, Maghera, which you and I would consider a comprehensive school. It is a very successful school. Sean feels very strongly about these things. "Vocational" is understood and articulated, in its broadest sense, to include areas such as ICT, business studies, health and social care, as well as the areas that Ivan has been talking about. Perhaps we need to tease out what we all mean by "vocational" a bit more.
1138.
I recall attending the "Qualifying for Success" conferences not along ago and listening to John Barnhill, the academic registrar of the University of Ulster. He praised those students who had come through the vocational route and said they were better prepared to deal with university study than those who had taken the academic route, because they had gone through their two years of A-levels and had their terminal examination. No doubt they were very able and bright young people, but in terms of independent study, they did not have the first idea. Those are John Barnhill's words. Those students who had come through the vocational route - health and social care, business studies - were giving help in terms of how to study and how to cope in the library. Perhaps we need to revisit the term "vocational" and broaden our definition of it.
1139.
Mr K Robinson: Unless we define "vocational" how can we make it subject to a parity of esteem, if that is what we need to do?
1140.
Mr Hamilton: The present range of GNVQ courses in post-primary schools could be regarded as a possible avenue of approach. Similarly, on an anecdotal level, someone who left Methodist College to get a state exhibition to Queen's, but who during his time at school chose to do a woodwork course rather than an extra A-level German course would now refer, in his work at a medical centre in Canada, to how that experience fashioned his thinking and helped his medical skills.
1141.
We come back to equality of esteem and of opportunity. If it is meaningful for children to progress on a course of study which heightens their level of self-esteem and which will be recognised by public bodies as an admission into third level education, so be it. I notice that at least two people at the table have picked up pens to write with their left hand. When my brother was at school he was forced to write with his right hand - I always watched him when his left hand was coming towards me. The system dictated how one wrote. It was the same with selection and with Queen's University. The system dictated our thinking and expectations.
1142.
We must go beyond systems and look at individuals and at their abilities so that we can realise their potential.
1143.
Mr McElduff: We have heard of secondary principals whose job is to rebuild the confidence of pupils who have been deemed to have failed the 11-plus. Mr Greenwood, you have told us that between what you call D-day and the end of June there are many observations which you could make. Can tell us something about them?
1144.
Mr Greenwood: A sociologist would have a field day watching and observing a primary seven class from September until June. The interactions that happen between the children and the shifts in friendships of six years are remarkable to witness. In the practice tests one child will score 15 or 16 and it is obvious that he will not make it; his best friend will score 80 or 90 and it is obvious that he will. The two will start to drift apart for no other reason than an artificial constraint. That is disturbing for teachers to watch.
1145.
The skewing of the curriculum is unfortunate, because it means that some of the fully inclusive things which we should be doing must be pushed to one side. By mid-February we are finding that we have not done certain subjects in physical education with the children or that we have not got them to do their controlled technology and computer studies. These must be slotted in between mid-February and D-day. It is a juggling match. We are trying to stuff subjects in which, in the normal course of events, would have been part of an ordinary structured timetable. It has a terrible social impact on the children.
1146.
They must also wait to find out if they have been accepted for the grammar school or the secondary school to which they have applied. They find it very stressful to have to wait until June 2.
1147.
Mr McHugh: Parents' role in supporting their children is another important factor that will not change.
1148.
Mr Hamilton: I am not so sure of that. John Hume once said that there were no characters left in Derry because they had all passed the 11-plus.
1149.
Mr McHugh: Just as you see pupils' friendships changing, I see the friendships of mothers at the gate actually changing as well.
1150.
Mr Hamilton: This is where our role as primary school principals comes into play. If we see that a parent is unable to provide support - on account of either placement, thinking or expectation ¾ it is up to us to support these families. We make them aware of the range of options available, what will happen to them, and the tremendous support mechanisms available to them. They can always come back to us for advice at any time. I always have children wandering through my door. Indeed, in this past fortnight, I was visited by a mother whom I was sure was going to commit suicide before the end of the day - and I jest not. She asked me to promise to look after her wee boy who is now in the third or forth form. I had to make certain telephone calls to ensure that the family structure was being supported at home.
1151.
However, you are quite right. When I was a boy all I asked for was an opportunity, and it is my job to provide boys and girls with opportunity regardless of their background. That is common to all schools. It is one of the features of schools and primary schools in Northern Ireland -there is a caring nature of people taking time, right across the board.
1152.
Mr McHugh: A number of parents would fall into the category of not being in the position, probably because of their own under-achievement, to help their children to answer the kind of questions that are asked in the transfer test. My own daughter sat the exam a very short time ago and I know the kind of questions that are involved.
1153.
Mr Greenwood: These problems do not happen at post-primary level only. When we are preparing pupils in the run up to the test, we are faced with the phenomenon of nine-year-olds being sent to private tutors for extra lessons. Some parents can afford to pay £12 or £15 an hour for a tutor, but others cannot. What happens to social inclusiveness then?
1154.
Mr Arbuthnot: You are identifying the ongoing society stigmatisation that exists. How long are we going to go on doing this? I have children in my school now who are going to be parents sooner than we would probably want them to be parents, and they are going to be in exactly the same situation. In their opinion, the education system has failed them because it labelled them. I do not want to become anecdotal, but children going in to GCSE mock exams have said to me; "Sir, why are you doing this to me again? Sure, you know I am thick." They say this because they were deemed thick when they were 11 years old. When they have children they will feel the same way. This is what is being identified and we must stop it.
1155.
Mr Irwin: It comes down to what sort of a society we want to shape and create. Do we want to compartmentalise children, by telling them to go into a little box called grammar school, or to go into a little box called secondary school?
1156.
Mr Arbuthnot: It will not diminish standards, nor will we become bog-standard comprehensives.
1157.
The Chairperson: Returning to my question about how to avoid the risk of creating a rich man's education. It is easy to say that you are introducing a system in which everyone is valued equally. That is very desirable, but there is evidence that if this argument goes in a particular way, there are perhaps a number of schools in Northern Ireland which might seriously consider turning independent, with fee-paying pupils. Is that acceptable? What does that really achieve for society?
1158.
Mr Arbuthnot: Who would pay the teachers' salaries? Is the state going to pay the teachers' salaries in these independent schools? If they are self-funded, they can fund absolutely everything themselves, including buildings, et cetera.
1159.
The Chairperson: So basically you would say, "Let them go".
1160.
Mr Arbuthnot: Let those schools do that.
1161.
The Chairperson: I welcome the Deputy Chairperson to the meeting.
1162.
Mr S Wilson: This question may well have been answered earlier, because Mr Arbuthnot made reference to it. He said that he did not believe that a system of all-through schools need necessarily be a bog- standard system. The fact is that, whether you believe it or not, that is how the all-through system has been described by some of its former chief proponents in the Labour Party in England. People who advocated that system have bought their way out of it when they had the opportunity. They have sent their youngsters to schools that are not part of the state system. We are not asking for a statement of faith. We are asking you to tell us why the facts are different from what you say you believe them to be.
1163.
Mr Arbuthnot: This is Northern Ireland.
1164.
Mr S Wilson: Since Mr Arbuthnot was the man who stated his belief -
1165.
Mr Arbuthnot: I was answering the first question.
1166.
Mr S Wilson: The facts are that if we compare the system that we have in Northern Ireland - which does have defects - with what they have in England, Wales and Scotland, more people here get qualifications throughout the system, fewer people leave without qualifications, and more working-class youngsters go to university. Are you really telling me that, on the basis of your belief, you are prepared to sacrifice that for a system that its own proponents have described as "bog-standard"?
1167.
Mr Irwin: Can I ask you a question, Mr Wilson? Are you telling me that we could not have an all-through system in Northern Ireland and still maintain excellence? Is that the understanding that you, as a teacher, have of your colleagues in Northern Ireland?
1168.
Mr S Wilson: I am saying that all any policy maker can work on is the evidence from where a system which has been tried out and what the result of that has been. The results in those places where this has been tried are as I have described.
1169.
Mr Irwin: Is there not evidence that there has been excellence in many comprehensive schools in England and Wales? I work -
1170.
Mr S Wilson: Yes. That comes down to the point that the Chairperson made. The social divisiveness of educational systems is as great whether it is comprehensive or the kind of selective system that we have here. The comprehensive schools that you are referring to in parts of England and Wales are in those areas where people have had the money to buy into particular areas, in terms of the mortgages that are available. Working-class youngsters are the ones who have been betrayed. They are the ones who do not get the chance to go to university in the same numbers that they do here. They are the ones who have twice the rate of failure - leaving school without any qualifications - than we have in Northern Ireland.
1171.
Mr Irwin: We can all use statistics in whatever way we want in order to prove whatever we want.
1172.
Mr S Wilson: I take it -
1173.
Mr Irwin: I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but you or I, or anyone around this table, could take any set of statistics and prove whatever they wanted to prove, depending on our own thinking and our own approaches.
1174.
Mr Arbuthnot: Before Mr Wilson came in, I was talking about what secondary schools are doing at present. The one positive thing that you can say about the league table system is that a lot of secondary schools are actually delivering now. We are doing it now in Northern Ireland.
1175.
Forget about what is happening in inner-city areas in England, or wherever. We are doing this here and now with children who are under-qualified, and we are getting results.
1176.
Mr Greenwood: I would like to reiterate, as Mr Wilson was not present earlier, that the status quo is not an option in this selection procedure.
1177.
Mr Hamilton: It is interesting to look at the price range of the houses in the vicinity of the present array of grammar schools in Northern Ireland. If those grammar schools became neighbourhood comprehensives they would not attract enough pupils from those neighbouring houses, because insufficient numbers of children from that £400,000 or £300,000 property range, or whatever it might be, will attend the neighbouring school. It is the same in those schools. Therefore, opportunities will have to be examined.
1178.
I said earlier that I am not particularly concerned about what the school is called. It is the quality of relationships available within that school that is important, the range of opportunities and the ability - the four words I used were, "providing opportunity" and "realising potential" - that is what schools should be about. I do not care what you call them provided that the opportunity is on offer to everyone.
1179.
The Chairperson: I am sorry that we have to finish there. We have had a very lively exchange.
1180.
Mr Hamilton: Chairman, I thought we were interesting, but you are more interesting.
1181.
Mr McElduff: Mr Wilson's late arrival has skewed the curriculum.
1182.
The Chairperson: Thank you, Gentlemen, for your contributions this afternoon. We appreciate the lively and very thought provoking exchange of views that we have had. Certainly, those who had expected a dull Thursday afternoon at Parliament Buildings, Stormont, have been seriously disappointed. We look forward to continuing to exchange views as this great debate moves on.
1183.
Mr Hamilton: I will leave the article I wrote, 'Something of Selection', which is not part of an NAHT delegation, but which you might find interesting.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 15 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Hamilton
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr F Bunting )
Ms N O'Donnell ) Irish National
Teachers' Organisation
1184.
The Chairperson: I am pleased to welcome Mr Frank Bunting no stranger to the Education Committee, and Nuala O'Donnell from the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO). We shall hear representations from them on the review of post-primary education.
1185.
You are most welcome. Thank you very much indeed. We look forward to what you have to say and, no doubt, an equally lively exchange of views.
1186.
Mr Bunting: We shall drive the dullness levels down.
1187.
Ms O'Donnell: I shall open the discussion with a summary of the INTO position. You should have a copy of our submission to the review body and also our answers to the questions you sent us.
1188.
The INTO has wished to abolish selection since its inception in 1947, and it has carried that position through year on year. It has been the subject of debate at practically every conference and teachers have unanimously concurred that selection should go. A comprehensive system of education is what we envisage for Northern Ireland.
1189.
On that basis, we have certain issues which we feel also need to be taken into account, and in the review of post-primary education there are a number of factors that we feel are very important.
1190.
First, we feel that the selective system should cease as soon as possible, and that there should be no system of selection at all between primary and post- primary education. We feel that there are two stages. The first thing would be to abolish the selection system - there is much dialogue and debate about what should follow from there.
1191.
What is very important at the moment is the current review of the curriculum, of which phase one has been completed. Phase two will soon come out for consultation. In fact, we have just received the proposals for Key Stage 4, which we have to respond to by the end of April. All those factors have an important part to play in the kind of post-primary education system we will examine.
1192.
We feel that the following points should underpin any new system of education. There should be equality of opportunity for all children. Social inclusion is very important, and all schools should have equal status and parity of esteem. Funding and resourcing disparities between schools and school phases should be removed, and there should be equal and appropriate funding and resourcing for all schools. There should be special recognition for the needs of schools and teachers in areas of social disadvantage.
1193.
We feel that choice is important, that is to say the abolition of the selective transfer system, which allows no real choice for pupils or parents. All subjects should be valued equally. There should be a common currency for all qualifications, so that you can actually see what qualifications. That is a summary of our position.
1194.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much indeed. I shall open this up to general discussion and questions. I should like to ask you one or two questions. First, you have been campaigning since 1947 to have transfer selection abolished. Why do you think you have been so unsuccessful to date? Secondly - this is not meant to cause offence - how do you avoid the creation of "bog-standard" comprehensive systems, referred to by none other than the Prime Minister's press secretary, Alastair Campbell. How do you address those two issues?
1195.
Mr Bunting: The first answer would be "Long runs the fox". It is not a question of how long you campaign for something. If you consult with your members, who are teachers in schools throughout Northern Ireland, and they continue to say that selection is not in the interests of children at post-primary level - or of those in the upper stages of primary level - you have to bring that to the attention of the public. We have done that over many decades and have been successful on a number of occasions. You will see in the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) response that we try to take an historical approach to our analysis. Anyone who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.
1196.
We had major studies done. The Burgess report was published in 1971 and - fortunately or unfortunately depending on your political perspective - the Stormont Government was prorogued immediately thereafter. There was no opportunity to put the Burgess recommendations into effect. Those recommendations were very similar to the recommendations the INTO was making at the time - and to those which the INTO is making thirty years later, in 2001, though the situation has developed considerably since.
1197.
The Burgess report came out in 1971. Later there was the Melchett review, about which we had very substantial discussions. It went as far as the Cowan report bringing forward actual feasibility studies for post-primary schools at different levels. That came to an end when Lord Elton was bought into Northern Ireland. One of the benefits of devolution is that we have a politician elected in Northern Ireland as Minister of Education. Lord Elton brought forward the Conservative Party policy of the day in Britain of terminating the development of comprehensive schools. It was an ideological issue for the Conservative Government at that time.
1198.
There have been serious difficulties, but it would not do to underestimate the fact that the selective system has benefited a large number of people in Northern Ireland. Sammy Wilson has already drawn attention to some of them. Teachers in grammar schools have benefited considerably since there has been a burgeoning employment situation in grammar schools due to the way in which Government policy worked.
1199.
The middle and working classes in Northern Ireland who have a positive disposition and bent towards education have also benefited greatly from it. They have all got into grammar schools in certain areas. I am from the Falls Road, and I benefited from a grammar school education. The people who have lost out are those who have been disadvantaged or who come from low socio-economic groupings, who do not have a voice in society, and who are unable to influence politicians or political parties to implement their will.
1200.
The situation is confirmed by the Department of Education's statistical press bulletin of 23 March 1999. It states quite categorically that in the post-primary phase 40% of pupils attend grammar schools. In 1947, when we were talking about the implementation of an academic curriculum for grammar schools, it was deemed that 12% of the school population was eligible or suitable for an academic education. Gradually, as the years have gone by, this strange notion of the percentage of children who would benefit from "an academic education" has changed, and the figure has risen to 40%. What has happened is that the result of that policy of drift has been visited upon teachers, pupils and families. The secondary sector has contracted and, in a situation of dysfunctionalism and destabilisation, pupils' education and training have been undermined. That is how we see the last 50 years, and we believe it is the reason that INTO Northern Ireland members's views on the nature of selection and post-primary education have not been fulfilled.
1201.
In relation to the final point, I dispute that Alastair Campbell is a product of the Labour Party system. He is yet another Oxford-educated person operating as a spin doctor, and the remarks he made were deplorable. They have regularly been seen to be deplorable, and he has been castigated right across the political spectrum. Most people are quite shocked at what he said.
1202.
In the 1970s, when the Republican party was in power in the United States, the word "liberal" became a term of abuse. In educational circles, among some right-wing parties, the word "comprehensive" has become an epithet associated with low standards. That is totally untrue, and totally unjustified. We are not ashamed to say that we are in favour of comprehensive schools, as our colleagues said. Comprehensive primary schools are very successful and could be more successful if selection was abolished. We see no difficulty at all with all-ability second level schools promoting children's education and development.
1203.
Ms O'Donnell: The curriculum is a very important part of comprehensive schools. If we get that right for comprehensive and other schools we can prevent having any kind of "bog standard". We can have a high standard, and that is very important.
1204.
Ms Lewsley: The INTO believes that children should be able to go to the school of their choice, using a selection method similar to that for primary schools. How would this work in practice? How should it be decided which pupils gain places in schools which can become oversubscribed? How can the danger of selection by postcode be cut out?
1205.
Mr Bunting: That is a very difficult question. Many of you have already made the comment that you have to live with the current situation. One of the things we are saying is that the selective transfer system should go, and that an early decision should be made on that. The much more difficult question of the nature of the post-primary education system must then be determined. If we were to bring about a situation whereby the child could have the school of his or her choice, that would be the first time it had ever happened in Northern Ireland. Although Governments have talked about parental choice, the selective transfer system largely means school choice.
1206.
Many pupils are not able to go to the school they wish. We are in a very difficult situation, and we do not have answers to it. Our solution would be a comprehensive school system. However, considering the situation we are in, we must be very creative.
1207.
We do not have any answers today, but we have begun a dialogue with other organisations such as the Governing Bodies Association. We shall continue that dialogue to see if we can find situations which provide opportunities for people to move from the primary to the post-primary system using either the school systems we have at present or combinations thereof.
1208.
Mr S Wilson: I want to press Mr Bunting on his last answer since everyone who has advocated that kind of comprehensive system has unfortunately avoided the very issue Mrs Lewsley asked you about. You are the third group - I have kept a careful record from Hansard because I shall use it on some occasion - who have said that it is a hard question and that you do not have an answer. I shall not tell you who the other two groups were. However, once you go down that road you are in danger of allowing economic selection, for that is the only alternative to academic or educational selection.
1209.
Allow me to take you through your own document - I should like you to explain this contradiction. In the first paragraph you say that you want to end selection. In your response to question two in your submission you say that children should be able to go to the school of their choice. However, in the next paragraph, you say that you are against open enrolment. How can children go to the school of their choice if you restrict the numbers allowed to enrol with a particular school? Furthermore, if you do restrict that, how do you avoid selection? You are saying that, on the one hand, parents have a choice while on the other hand schools cannot respond to it. How do you then avoid selecting from among the youngsters beating at the door considering that there are not enough places for all of them?
1210.
Mr Bunting: I shall take this stage by stage, for I feel it is important, if you want to maintain the standards that we have in Northern Ireland, to develop a consensual model. There is no point in breaking up school systems in an attempt to move forward, because the chances are that in the destruction process, some children's education will be disrupted. I do not think that there is any excuse for that. We must find a way forward using a consensual model that involves all the different groups working together.
1211.
We are prepared to put our proposals on the table and discuss other people's ideas to see whether we can achieve compromise. We need, in the absence of a selective transfer system, a post-primary system that is designed to meet the needs of this century. The grammar secondary divide we currently have does not meet those needs.
1212.
It is crystal clear that we must move towards. The situation is complex because of Government policy and those policies brought about by the Belfast Agreement. In the Agreement, as I understand it, several forms of education are to be promoted by you. Those are Irish-medium education, integrated education, Catholic education, other denominational education and controlled education, not to mention the voluntary grammar sector.
1213.
In addition there is a perception that there should be single-sex schools. If you consider all of those policy imperatives, some of which existed before, but some of which are in the Belfast Agreement, how do you develop a post-primary system that embraces all of those things?
1214.
It can only happen if everyone is prepared to compromise. It is much more complex than a straightforward question at Catholic grammar, Catholic secondary, Protestant grammar and Protestant secondary. As Ms O'Donnell said, it is also related to the curriculum review since the consultation and decisions which are being determined in Westminster will influence the nature of our education structure. It is also related to the most important factor - the funding of schools.
1215.
The Education Committee has already received documentation and consultation from the Department of Education on changes to the proposed funding of schools. All those things are directly related to the sort of school structure we have. In that state of flux there are no easy answers, but the status quo cannot stay - it must evolve. The best way in which it can do so is through some form of transfer from primary to post-primary school which has the support of teachers, parents and the wider society.
1216.
Teachers will not be used as patsies to transfer people to a selected system. That is one of the transfer systems which the Department of Education has already used, and it rebounded against teachers when their professional judgement was used to fill grammar school places. That will never happen again. Teachers will never allow themselves to be put in a situation where their professional judgement is used to transfer. There will be a system whereby teachers may have to take more definite action.
1217.
The INTO has been taking things "softly, softly" for the past 50 years, but gradually our patience will run out. We are investing a great deal in this process to ensure that we achieve a consensual model which is in the interests of children, teachers and society.
1218.
Mr McElduff: If radical changes are proposed by the review body, what time frame is feasible for implementation, and what will the likely effect on grammar schools be? Secondly, do you recommend streaming or banding in the comprehensive system?
1219.
Ms O'Donnell: The first question is difficult to answer, since we do not know how radical the changes will be. The body will have to be realistic as to how that change can happen depending on whether it is the schools on the system that is to change and whether it should be phased in. Those things can only be decided when we see what the changes will be. We should like to have a realistic period for it to be done properly instead of being rushed through, but it must be done relatively quickly. It is about getting a balance. We can only decide on the timescale when we see the proposals.
1220.
With regard to comprehensives we would see that as banding as opposed to streaming. If you are talking about putting pupils into streams it is the same thing as selecting them. However, if pupils are working within banding in different subject areas they have more of a chance to develop themselves. That question has to be taken in the context of the curriculum review with the proposals for the Key Stage 4 because there will be elements, if that comes through, for a lot more choice. Banding may not even be an issue in some of those cases.
1221.
Mr Bunting: The review body will not, and cannot, make radical recommendations. Any recommendations it will make will already have been proposed by the 1973 Burgess report, or will have been proposed by the Labour Government consultation exercise in the mid 1970s. Unfortunately, there is nothing new going on here. We are revisiting a subject which has been visited many times. The Government is moved to taking action where it has been, for a variety of reasons, not pertaining to education but pertaining to politics.
1222.
It has been stranded. This issue should have been addressed by the Stormont Government in 1971-72, but this did not happen and everything has changed since then. Our colleagues from the National Association of Head Teachers were asked to define the term "vocational." In the Northern Ireland context, it is the grammar schools which are vocational ¾ pupils at these schools are guaranteed jobs, and they are educated in preparation for a professional career.
1223.
My friend and colleague, Wilfred Mulryne told me that, as principal of Methodist College, his major concern is that large numbers of pupils are going, like lemmings, towards such professions as law and medicine. Pupils are not looking towards Northern Ireland's wealth-creating sector within which they could make enormous differences. They would be able to create the difference which would make this society a successful European region. Until we can break that cycle, we will be caught in that situation.
1224.
Mr K Robinson: Thank you, Mr Bunting, for answering my question before I asked it. I noted that you would probably refine your definition of the term "vocational" in response to my earlier question, and this was the case. Mr Mulryne's graphic description of what is happening is interesting. Grammar schools are vocational even though that title is not ascribed to them.
1225.
Mr Bunting, your union is in a unique position; it is an all-Ireland union, therefore it can look over the fence to see what the neighbours are up to. You have used the term "vocational" very lightly. I have been through your submission several times and I noticed you have defined that one. How do you regard the Irish Republic's problems, vis-à-vis the difficulties that we are currently trying to wrestle with? What do you think of the solutions that they are using to combat those problems? Is there anything that we can learn from their actions, or are there obvious dangers that should be flagged up to us now?
1226.
Ms O'Donnell: The union has been looking quite closely at the post-primary education system in the Republic of Ireland, including pupil transfers and other issues. Problems exist in some areas, but overall the Republic has what could be described as a comprehensive system, and it believes it to work effectively. The Republic is in the process of reviewing its curriculum, and I think that this will determine the standard that is produced in the schools.
1227.
It has introduced new systems ¾ such as the community colleges - and they have been very successful. The INTO is looking into this aspect in even greater detail than before. Our colleagues in the Republic have told us that, although no system can be flawless, the Government is also continually trying to improve its education system. We would like to see more common work, which would allow improvements to be made across the board.
1228.
Mr K Robinson: We are constantly told that the Republic's educational system has been the driver of the Celtic Tiger.
1229.
Mr Bunting: Everybody is keen on profiting from the Celtic Tiger.
1230.
Mr K Robinson: At the moment, Northern Ireland has a relatively successful and improving economy. We must ask ourselves if we want to gear this restructured educational system to service that economy or, alternatively, if we need to address some of the educational points, as referred to by other witnesses?
1231.
Ms O'Donnell: Both are important. You can - [Interruption]
1232.
Mr K Robinson: Are they exclusive?
1233.
Ms O'Donnell: No, they are not exclusive. Both issues have been important factors in the curriculum review debate which incorporates economic factors in addition to considerations of the type of education that we want to provide in Northern Ireland and the kind of people that we want to produce. That is why the curriculum is now based more on skills and values. The goal is to achieve a balance between the two. This is a difficult objective but we should be striving to achieve it.
1234.
Mr K Robinson: Mr Bunting mentioned a grammar school that is not focusing on the wealth- creating sector of society. Society must be aware that some young people somewhere have to create that wealth before the whole system collapses.
1235.
Mr Bunting: There is a problem with the size of the subvention that we get from Westminster. Everyone wants Northern Ireland to be a successful society; however, a good deal of hypocrisy prevails. In a recent Department of Education statement, Martin McGuinness pointed out that this is the European year of languages. Despite this, the only thing that the Department of Education has done in the past 10 years is to close down European language provision in the teacher training colleges.
1236.
Children should not only be taught European languages in primary schools but they should also be taught modern world languages. At present, that can only be done on the basis of voluntarism because of the lack of capability and capacity of the system. When the Department of Education examines children's needs, it should not base them on what the Northern Ireland economy might be like in 15 years time, because by that stage people's needs may have changed.
1237.
The INTO is not interested in bringing forward a technical system which replicates the German model because Northern Ireland does not have such companies as Volkswagen or Audi for which to manufacture widgets to high levels of specification. Northern Ireland's asset is the intelligence of its people and their capacity to develop in the knowledge-based economy which we believe will form the basis of our success in the next 10 to 15 years. The Northern Ireland people should be made as flexible and adaptive as possible therefore basic components such as a language provision must be made available to them. It is a shame and disgrace that that has not been provided. That area needs a major turn around and a skewing of resources. It needs more teachers to be employed and better paid.
1238.
Last year Stranmillis University College and St Mary's University College received the lowest number of applicants for teacher places in the past 20 years. I attribute that to the development of peace and democracy in Northern Ireland and the growth of its economy. People are now looking beyond careers in teaching towards better paid jobs. It is not difficult to become a better paid person than a teacher. Salaries in the police service start at £19,000 for 18 year olds, but an Honours trained teacher must have five or six years' professional experience before earning such a salary.
1239.
Mr K Robinson: There are a number of unemployed graduates in Northern Ireland. Is there any way of bringing those trained teachers into the new system, whatever that might be, to ensure that it starts off with the best possible pupil/teacher ratios? Then some of the longstanding problems of the current school structures can be addressed.
1240.
Mr Bunting: The INTO advocates the need to re-examine education in Northern Ireland. All education systems must be examined - comprehensive education and education in the round. An inquiry into the big problems and strategic issues, such as the conditions and service of teachers and salary of teachers, should be carried out within a three or four month time limit, and with the Education Committee's co-operation and involvement. It should outline the direction which society needs to take in regard to education. That has already been done in Scotland.
1241.
Mr S Wilson: You make several fairly strong statements in your submission, among them that you support the introduction of a system of comprehensive, grant-aided schools in Northern Ireland. In the 'Summary' section of the 'INTO Response To The Review Body On Post-Primary Education In Northern Ireland' you say that
"Existing government policy providing grant-aided funding to various forms of post-primary provision - Catholic, Voluntary, Controlled, Integrated, Irish Medium and single-sex schools - complicates reform and renders "local" and "sectoral" approaches impossible to implement."
1242.
Would all of these various divisions have to be abolished before a comprehensive system of education could be introduced? If it is impossible to have no selection without open enrolment and parental choice, does that not make your objective even more difficult to achieve, given the political undertones?
1243.
Mr Bunting: Ireland is a small place, and it would be much more sensible to have a system of primary and post-primary education which replicate each other. In this way, a child who was born and educated in Ballymoney could move to a new school in Cork to study the same curriculum and be subject to the same assessment arrangements. It would be a seamless process, and that is our objective.
1244.
The Belfast Agreement encourages Irish-medium education, Irish studies and Ulster-Scots studies on both parts of the island, and both parts of the island would benefit greatly from such educational provision. Creating the ethos of the Catholic and Protestant churches in that system, and the distinct ethos of integrated schools, is a matter which would have to be addressed. Those are questions of school management and funding. That would be our ideal. It would require people to give, and that is something to which we must aspire.
1245.
Mr S Wilson: That is not the ideal. You say that it is impossible to implement without that happening.
1246.
Ms O'Donnell: Unless all schools and education systems have parity of esteem - and parity of funding - it will be impossible. If some schools are viewed as being better than others and receive better funding than others, there can be no proper comprehensive system.
1247.
Mr Bunting: You must know from your own experience, Mr Wilson, the kind of gyrations which parents might get up to in order to get their children into a school, which is valued because it happens to be a grammar school. That goes on across the board, and principals and teachers are involved in it as well. By no stretch of the imagination is it educational, and it is certainly of no benefit to the children involved. I have heard the excuse given that the child had a headache or that he saw the bogeyman on the way to the test and that that is why he did not do well.
1248.
People must live with the stigma of failure all their life.
1249.
Mr S Wilson: I am not sure that your interpretation of that paragraph is correct. It merely states that to "grant-aid" - there is no mention of equal grant-aiding - "renders local and sectoral approaches impossible to implement".
1250.
In the opening paragraph on page 1 of your response you make a point about people being stigmatised for the rest of their lives. Tony Gallagher does not say that at all, because paragraph 2.5.2 of his report states that overall, the attitude of youngsters in school, regardless of which type of establishment, has been gauged as being fairly positive. Pupils tended to focus on their own school rather than compare it with others, and according to Gallagher those who went to the secondary schools - whom you say should have felt the greatest sense of failure and had the most negative repercussions - found their schools more supportive.
1251.
Mr Bunting: I have also read the Gallagher report, and you can draw from it what you wish. I am an 11-plus failure, and I remember the traumatic experience which I went through when I failed. I know the impact it has had on me right up to the present day. The majority of children who go through the system are like me. You can pull whatever you wish out of the hat, but let me tell you this: it is not in the educational or social interests of society for children to be failed at the age of 11 simply to put bums on certain types of seats. It is neither proper nor ethical, and we have said as much for many decades. I am very pleased that so many people, including those in business, agree that it is not in society's economic interests for that to happen.
1252.
The Chairperson: Thank you.
1253.
Mr Bunting: We have already given you some copies of the literature that we brought with us. We have brought additional copies along. These are the finished articles.
1254.
Ms O'Donnell: The printed version.
1255.
The Chairperson: The authorised version.
1256.
Ms O'Donnell: Yes.
1257.
Mr Bunting: It is in blue.
1258.
Ms O'Donnell: Everything in the INTO is in blue.
1259.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much for your contribution today. We obviously look forward to other exchanges which we are likely to have.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gibson
Mr McHugh
Witnesses:
Mr D Flanagan )
Mr E McArdle ) Council for Catholic
Maintained Schools
Mr I Davidson )
Mr G Lundy )
1260.
The Chairperson: Welcome to this public session of the Education Committee. We are pleased to welcome representatives from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, (CCMS), who are here to give us their views on post-primary education. We look forward to hearing your submission and having the opportunity to ask questions.
1261.
We usually time these sessions for approximately three quarters of an hour, and it is my duty to try to limit the proceedings to that.
1262.
Mr Davidson: I would like to thank you for receiving this delegation and to say that we welcome this opportunity to speak on the document which has already been forwarded to you. You will see that a great deal of research has been done in the production of this document, and since the council encompasses those from a very wide geographical spread, many different views have been collated in it.
1263.
We welcome it, because we feel that the time is opportune in the light of issues such as open enrolment and the demographic trends. The document is a furtherance of papers which the council has produced in the past as it has tried to cope with the changing face of education.
1264.
This morning the director will deal with policy matters, Mr McArdle will make a presentation on the main contents of the document, and we will then welcome the opportunity to have an exchange of views.
1265.
Mr Flanagan: Thank you. It is good to be back; I always enjoy the experience, and I hope this morning will be no different.
1266.
From our perspective it is useful to put all of this into a policy context within the council, because the council has chosen to deal with this issue within a policy framework. We have not just responded to the Gerry Burns review body. We have worked up through policy over time, and that is significant in terms of where we are coming from.
1267.
The policy context can be traced back beyond 1993 but essentially focuses on 1993, when my council set up a working party to look at the whole business of raising standards. The raison d'être for CCMS is to raise standards within the Catholic maintained sector. At that time that working party came forward with a number of recommendations and conclusions. One was that it identified selection and selection combined with open enrolment as an impediment to raising standards in Northern Ireland, particularly in the post-primary, secondary sector - and boys' schools within that.
1268.
We said at the time that the issue of selection was a structural one and needed to be addressed by the Department of Education at a policy level. There needed to be leadership. Those were our initial thoughts in relation to selection in 1993.
1269.
We worked on that whole process, and in 1997-98 we published two further documents - 'Selection: A Considered Perspective', and 'Selection: A Position Statement'. It might be useful to tell you why we released a position statement rather than a policy one. We did this because we had a call to make. We wondered if we could get policy through the council at that stage or if we would be unsuccessful. We formed the judgement that there probably was not sufficient consensus within our constituency to move to policy. We decided, therefore, that we would develop a position paper.
1270.
The position paper made a number of significant statements, one of which was that selection could not be addressed unilaterally, and that is one of the reasons why we did not move to policy. We also felt that further research was required; the debate and some of the research was a bit sterile and reflected situations in the past.
1271.
In addition, we suggested that although the research would take place, the council could not afford to sit on its hands. That is when we first came forward with the notion of exploring local solutions, particularly in view of some of the work we were doing in Strabane at that time.
1272.
Strabane was an interesting development in many ways, and it was driven by the need to raise standards and excellence for all children. In the process of the negotiations and consultations that took place, we found that the establishment of guiding principles was the central tenet of our whole negotiation.
1273.
Those guiding principles that we worked on are essentially around the notions of equality of opportunity, equity of access, excellence for all and also improved access to third-level education. With regard to the Burns review, the council took the view that it was time to move from position to policy. We have firmed up our policy on the whole issue of selection, so we are coming at it from a policy perspective. Whatever Burns comes forward with, CCMS now has a clear policy in relation to selection, and we will not be able to walk away from that.
1274.
In the document we have limited ourselves to addressing the issue of selection rather than structures. Within the document we are clearly saying that there are two phases in this. There are policy decisions to be made around the whole issue of selection, on the issue of open enrolment and in the context of curriculum. This morning Mr McArdle and I were at the Waterfront for the launching of the consultation on Key Stage 4 curriculum. It all appears to be a little bit out of sync. We have got to make some policy decisions about selection, and then the issue of curriculum can be addressed in that context. That is not to say that we are not committed to looking at the structural issues. We clearly are very committed, and we have already commenced that work in-house in terms of preparing ourselves for the next stage, which we feel will be an extremely important stage. Mr McArdle will now talk to you about the main recommendations of the report.
1275.
Mr McArdle: It is not my intention to run through this paper in any great detail. One of the first things that needs to be said is that the draft Programme for Government in section 4.2 laid out the summary of the Northern Ireland Assembly's objectives in regard to its education system. They were to ensure the highest possible standard of education for all children and young people, which will motivate them to achieve their potential, build their confidence and enrich their lives. It then talks about an inclusive society, a strong and vibrant economy, and an incentive for lifelong learning. In a sense that is part of the purposes of education that have been defined.
1276.
When we were considering our document and putting together our position statement, we warned about the consideration solely of the issue of structures and said that there needed to be a notion of fitness for purpose. What are the purposes for which we want our education system to exist? What structures then will do that? That is the basis upon which our paper is largely predicated: the litmus test for any education system must be whether or not you define that purpose and whether the structures that underpin that effectively will deliver that.
1277.
At that stage we considered a whole series of different issues. The best thing for us to do would be to reflect, not so much on the issue of the educational element at the front end of the paper, but rather to reflect on some of the factors that will impact on that. One of the things that is emerging with regard to our skills needs is the fact that nearly one third of our long-term unemployed, according to the Northern Ireland Economic Council, have GVNQ level 3 and above. There is a National Advisory Council for Education and Training Targets (NACETT) report that would indicate that there is a difference in performance of between 25% and 60% in terms of output in comparable industries across Britain - it is a United Kingdom-wide survey - and comparable countries in Europe such as Germany, France and Holland. That differential can be traced to the difference in the skills deficit and skills level that exist there. It is nothing to do with financial input, infrastructure or social factors; it is to do with the skills input that is there.
1278.
In addition to that we looked at the changing context of education in Northern Ireland that has brought about a creeping comprehensivation of some of our grammar schools - this is a move from 27% to 35% attending grammar schools overall across Northern Ireland. In some areas nearer 50% of our children are now attending grammar schools. We considered the impact that has on the viability of other schools. We also reflected in some detail on the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) findings that were published in October which indicated that between 1998 and 2013 there will be a drop of 52,000 children under the age of sixteen.
1279.
We will have heard from the Eastern Health and Social Services report earlier in the week that the birth rate has sunk even lower. We can therefore see not an improvement but an exacerbation of that situation. We disaggregated the figures a little bit and, yes, it is 13% across the whole of Northern Ireland, but it is 23% in Belfast, 19% in Newtownabbey and 15% in north Down. The pupil numbers are falling in different ways in different communities. It is interesting, for example, that in the area that will be affected primarily we already have four of the five group one schools, so there has been recognition by the Department that there are particular issues and difficulties manifesting themselves in relation to that.
1280.
Concerns and issues have also been raised in relation to the current transfer test. It is probably true to say now that people will accept readily that it has been reasonably discredited. John Gardner's work, 'Testing The Test', was particularly significant and important.
1281.
Let us reflect for a moment on what we are looking for from our economy. It says in 'Strategy 2010' that we want a competitive, innovative, knowledge-based economy where there are opportunities for everyone. It also goes on to say that the knowledge-based economy is now such that it, rather than natural resources, will impact and decide our future economic well-being. I am long enough in the tooth to remember the sort of notion where you had to rote-learn geographical maps, and we were told at that time that Northern Ireland had a problem because it had no natural resources. We are now told that that does not matter and the new knowledge- based economy will be there. It is interesting that Minister Farren is currently, or has recently been, in the United States seeking to inveigle IT specialists back into Northern Ireland or to recruit them to Northern Ireland. It is interesting that John Anderson, in relation to the Spratt company, was discussing this morning in the Waterfront Hall the difficulty that he has in recruiting IT specialists, and when IT companies are brought in or induced to come here they simply poach his staff.
1282.
There is therefore a skills deficit issue. Michael Best was the author of a paper produced by the Northern Ireland Economic Council earlier this year in which, essentially, he said that there needs to be in Northern Ireland a manpower analysis. We need to have a clear understanding of the outputs necessary for us to sustain our economy and economic well-being. His suggestion is that this effectively has not happened. I ran the idea past John Simpson at the Waterfront this morning. He feels that that perspective is not necessarily inaccurate and that that sort of work needs to be done.
1283.
In addition, we have the notion of social inclusivity. If we look at the new TSN documents in relation to regenerating disadvantaged communities, it is interesting that we are, as the draft Programme for Government mentions, talking about helping disadvantaged children. At the moment, however, there is little or no doubt that the operation of open enrolment in a selective system is, in fact, creating pockets of institutions which are struggling because of the nature of the available intake. The interesting thing is that in 1990 the Department of Education's inspectorate did indicate quite clearly in a report published at that time, that open enrolment would not be introduced without difficulties in a selective system. In 1994 they went further, and demonstrated in the report that there had been the aggregation within certain schools because of the operation of open enrolment of children with a significant number of learning difficulties.
1284.
That leads us to the core issues and our guiding principles. On page 22 of our document we have outlined some of the principles which we thought were important - a sense of dignity for all, the need to respect, the need to respond to a changing curriculum, changing economy, knowledge to have an education system and the imperatives of justice, equality and respect. We think that those are particularly important.
1285.
We believe that we should be moving away from selection to election, where people will have a meaningful choice. We did recognise, however, that the notion of choice will only be meaningful if there is in fact a parity of esteem. The mere rebadging of institutions, where the local grammar school became the local comprehensive, happened in England when they moved to comprehensive education.
1286.
The researchers, Benn and Chitty, when they examined such schools 25 years on, discovered that there had been no real difference to institutions that had been socio-economically grammar orientated. Grammar schools remained as such, and the socio-economic profile had not changed.
1287.
If there is to be a change, if there is to be a choice, then it must be meaningful. The simple rebadging of institutions will lead to what Goodman and other social scientists call "first order change". That is change without difference or improvement. There is a saying that today's problems are yesterday's solutions. If we move to change without difference, we will simply be creating a new set of problems for the very near future.
1288.
The core issues that we identified are set out quite clearly. Our recommendations are on page 24 of our response to the review body. We think that selection should be ended as soon as is practicable. That is an interesting word because we do not believe it should be done precipitately. It should not be done without a clear understanding of the alternatives. We do not think it should be done unless a meaningful and significant change takes place.
1289.
In fact, if there is going to be a change then there needs to be a systemic review of the whole issue. That may well need the establishment of a task group. There needs to be a reconsideration of early years two to four, four plus and a recognition of the new research that has been done in that area.
1290.
In relation to post-primary we are talking about a core at 11 to 14, to be followed by a notion of informed choice. That is significant because it is based upon the notion that to have that informed choice there needs to be a very clearly enhanced guidance and advice facility. There needs to be a tightly structured assessment regime that would operate to augment and enhance record of achievement. There needs to be significant involvement of parents but, more importantly, there needs to be a cultural shift that recognises the significance of issues such as vocational education, which should not be O level for plumbers.
1291.
Vocational education should be technical education for all abilities at the very highest level of academic capacity, right the way down to a significantly more modest level. It should not be something that is seen as second-rate or second-hand. We need to have a similar respect for engineering and such to that found in other European countries.
1292.
That sums up the basis of our thinking, and we are happy to take any questions.
1293.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much indeed. If I have read your document correctly and understand what you have said this morning, the natural consequence of your proposals would be the abolition of the examination. The implication is that the grammar school system would effectively be abolished as well. Are you quite satisfied that you have made all of the people that you represent aware that the grammar schools are facing abolition as a result of your proposed changes? In other words, a large section of, if I may use the term, "Catholic middle-class parents" are very comfortable and very happy to send their children to grammar schools all over Northern Ireland. Are you sure you can take those people with you?
1294.
Mr McArdle: First, we do not see it as the abolition of grammar schools per se. What we have called for, in a sense, is a necessary reanalysis of the system and the needs of our community, and a definition at that stage of what we see as possibly supporting that. Quite clearly there is still room, and there is a demand. In our document we quite clearly make the point that we cannot destroy the academic actions that exist in the system. However, the bottom line is that the current system as it stands is not necessarily meeting all of the needs of our community. It is not necessarily meeting the goals of social inclusivity. One third of our long-term unemployed people have very high academic qualifications, and the Northern Ireland Economic Council is telling us that the question is whether or not what we are currently doing is fit for the purpose. We do not see it as being an assault on grammar schools. That would, in a sense, be inappropriate. It is question of what we need to meet our demands.
1295.
Mr Flanagan: This report has to be read in the context of what the Catholic Heads Association - who are the head teachers of Catholic grammar schools - have said. It also needs to be read in the context of the Northern bishops' submission to the Burns review. Their views are very similar to those of the CCMS. There is a very broad degree of support for what we say.
1296.
Is this debate about whether we get rid of grammar schools? In my view, it is not about that, rather it is about a review of post-primary education and whether we should continue with selection. We have said clearly that we need to deal with structures, but in a policy context. That is for the policy makers - the Education Committee, the Minister and the Department of Education - to determine. The education authorities would thereafter deal with the structures.
1297.
You quite rightly say that many parents feel comfortable, and are very orientated towards, the grammar school. If you talk to those parents, they say very clearly that the one thing they require for their children is excellence for all. That is one of the reasons we have the present difficulties. The current system does not provide excellence for all. We have one pathway with two routes. The difficulty with selection is that parents perceive that one route is better than the other. Our system has been conditioned to allow them to believe that. We have an academic pathway through two routes. There certainly will be difficulties. People will perceive this as an attack on grammar schools. Our document is not such an attack. It is much more fundamental and policy-based around the whole issue of selection.
1298.
Mr S Wilson: Having read your document and listened to what you have said today, I am not too sure what you mean. Perhaps you could address some of the inconsistencies for me.
1299.
On one hand, you say that schools do not have parity of esteem.
1300.
Mr Flanagan: You are quite right. There are perceived differences.
1301.
Mr S Wilson: You have also said that that would be a difficult issue to address, and yet you say you wish to do away with selection at 11 years. Given that some schools are perceived as different from others, do you not accept that, in the present situation, when it comes to transfer at the age of 11, some schools will be oversubscribed while others will be undersubscribed? Inevitably there has to be selection. If there is not how do you decide who gets into what school? In relation to doing away with selection, and parity of esteem, how do you then intend that children will be allocated to the various schools open to them?
1302.
Although it has been implicit in the documents submitted, no one who has come here has been prepared to say that they wish to do away with grammar schools, which are quite popular among all sections of the population. You have suggested some structures, but you have not said which one you prefer. Do you still support the idea of specialist schools, some of which would be academic, accelerated learning, grammar schools - whatever you like to call it. Others would be more vocationally orientated. Are you saying that the choice for that should take place at 14 years of age? There would then be two transfer periods -at 11 and again at 14. Or would it be an all-through system, where it will all be done in one school? That means comprehensive. You outline all of these options, and you pose all of these questions. However, I do not see any answers to them.
1303.
Mr Flanagan: The present system that we have for transfer and selection creates schools for unwanted children. People must face up to that both morally and politically. Do we want to continue creating schools for unwanted children? In the city of Belfast some children never get into any of the schools of their choice. A growing proportion of children end up in group one schools, despite never having put that school down on any list as a school of their choice - that list can contain 10 choices of schools. That is the system we have at the minute, and that is what selection and open enrolment have created.
1304.
The issue of transferring from primary-to secondary-level education can be conducted in a number of ways. At present, it is conducted through selection, and with that, we have added open enrolment. This is some sort of double-type selection whereby if a child is awarded a grade A, grade B, or, in some cases a grade C, he has a choice of grammar schools. If he does not get that, he then has a choice of secondary schools. If he does not get his choice, he will be left without any choice at all.
1305.
In the context of structures, we have said that there is a time for structures, but we should have some sort of policy determination. If the policy makers decide to continue with the concept of selection, the structures will follow that strategy. You cannot determine the structures without the strategy's being in place, and indeed it would be foolhardy for any authority such as ours to work through a situation that was not yet determined and come up with a structures outcome. Therefore, we have resisted the notion of moving to structures, and we have demonstrated in our paper that there are a number of ways to manage this. Regarding selection and choice, we have also said in our paper that everybody recognises that the age of 11 is too young for children to determine where their future aptitudes and interests lie. Ivan and myself have experience of being involved in special education. In these circumstances, one of the great things available to parents and others was that they all had an input in terms of what best suited the needs of the children. Invariably, parents sent their children to special schools, because that is where they wanted them to go. They were not selected for placement in special schools, and they were able to make that choice.
1306.
The concept of double transfer is a possibility, and this has been articulated in the document. There is a combination of possibilities that could be taken forward. However, until we have a policy direction regarding selection, open enrolment and the curriculum, this is not the time to be talking about structures.
1307.
Mr S Wilson: If we move away from what we have at present, take, for example, a school where there are 50 places available and 70 children have applied for them. How will you deal with that problem?
1308.
Mr Flanagan: We would currently deal with it through open enrolment and criteria.
1309.
Mr S Wilson: How would you deal with it if you have done away with selection?
1310.
Mr Flanagan: Let us imagine that I am the principal of this school where 70 children are looking for 50 places. Those 70 children have applied for the school, because they feel that the prospectus at my school has something to offer them. The policy of open enrolment is determined by the policy makers, so can we select on the basis of ability? If we remove selection we cannot. Can we select on the basis of proximity to home? That is a possibility. Maybe we can select on the basis of those who opted for my school as their first choice. Some may not have opted for my school as their first choice - it may be their second choice, or they may have been turned away elsewhere.
1311.
We presently operate a system of enrolment which takes into consideration proximity to schools and a range of other criteria such as whether the child has brothers or sisters at the school. All of those criteria are applied. We have tinkered with the criteria over the last seven or eight years. At one stage, it was possible for a post-primary school to say that the first criterion would be whether you put the school down as your first choice. That was removed from the post-primary schools, and you are no longer able to apply that.
1312.
Mr S Wilson: Would you therefore have enrolment by postal code?
1313.
Mr Flanagan: I have solved your problem. You presented me with a problem. I am not suggesting that we solve this by postal code.
1314.
Mr S Wilson: Your answer illustrates the nonsense of saying that you can do away with selection. You cannot do away with selection. I am trying to tease out from you whether you would prefer to have selection on social, economic or educational grounds.
1315.
Mr Davidson: There is a danger that we are going to go down an alleyway and that we are generalising from the particular. Mr Wilson assumed that we are against selection per se. In the document we state that at present, the actual mechanism of selection is harsh. I do not want to return to the question; the worst thing that an Irishman can do when you ask him a question is to reply by asking another. However, are Mr Wilson and the Committee happy with the results of the procedure at present? Are the grammar schools not finding that differential learning is presenting a problem as we increase the percentage of pupils that go there? Would the Education Committee be happy with the disaffection, the absenteeism and disciplinary problems found in the non-grammar schools? We have not stated that we are against grammar schools. I chaired a board of governors at a grammar school for 22 years, and I would have asked the very questions that Mr Wilson is asking.
1316.
You are assuming something which is not there. What we are saying is that it is a bit like climbing a mountain. If you have done some mountaineering, you will know that when you reach what you thought was the peak, there is another bit of the mountain still to go. We are saying that if you set out with the perception that this is the top and you get there and find that it is not, you have a problem. This document is saying that the mechanism at present is harsh and leaves many children blighted for life and feeling that they have failed. There is a differential of provision that is morally wrong. However, you cannot change it in one fell swoop. It is only when you reach that level on the hill that you realise that there has to be a readjustment and realignment. You thought that you were there, but you still have another distance to go. That is why we are being cautious. We are not coming up with options that are just leaving this open. We are saying that there is a two-staged approach to this. Only when people realise that this is the reality will they then begin to look at new options and solutions. It is a big issue.
1317.
We are offering this document and working with you and all responsible people in this Province to try to make provision for children. If we look at the grammar schools, lots of the parents are happy. If we look at the other schools, lots of the parents can be quite unhappy, and it is not the fault of the schools - far from it. Some of our best teachers are there, and that is why I cringe slightly when you talk about the excellence of the grammar schools. Having chaired boards of governers of grammar schools, I know that there are bad departments and bad teachers in some grammar schools. We have great teachers out there slaving away, and they are not getting the incentive or credit. We are leaving the whole area disaffected.
1318.
Those who are happy with the present situation have had either no children of their own or no association with any schools. We are saying in the document that we feel that something has to be done, and this is an opportune time to say so. We are not saying that selection per se must be removed, because education - as Mr Wilson will know, having been involved in it for years as a practitioner - is a constant series of selection and election. We are saying that we should not jump on a bandwagon and then look for the corollaries. We have to try to ask what the implication of this step will be. We are asking for a stepped, gradual approach. In order to bring that about, we are categorically stating that as far as we can see, the current mechanism is wrong; we do not agree with it, and we think that it should go. Far be it from me to sit here and chair a committee that would say that we want to get rid of grammar schools. Eddie McArdle might want to come in at this juncture.
1319.
The Chairperson: You have very adequately and eloquently covered the point, and unless Mr McArdle has something really heavy to offer us, we should move on.
1320.
Mrs E Bell: I read your paper. At the beginning, I thought that it was very good, but when I came to the end of it, I was left hanging as to what was going to happen. I got the impression that you think this is the first stage and the next stage will be when we step in to start the second phase - in which will be looking at your gradual approach to it. I was a bit disappointed in that.
1321.
However, what you said this morning showed me why you did it that way. You think that there should be an agreed policy in the next step, rather than a way forward. The second phase would then be that you would be looking into the practical ways of doing that. Again, it is following on. That is the core of the problem.
1322.
You said in your paper that consideration will be given to the development of a culture in post-primary education of election to rather than selection for courses or pathways. That is the core issue. At this stage, selection is for things and you look at it in a pre-determined way, whereas I would have thought that election to courses would have suggested that we needed a more flexible way of looking at it.
1323.
You recommend this, and there are definitely some reasons to consider it seriously, however, how do you see that working in practice? Where would you come in on that as regards, for instance, parents' involvement and deciding which children go to which school? I think that the logistical implications of that would be enormous.
1324.
The involvement of parents, as you rightly said, is necessary but how much? I know what the practices are on the ground, and it is very hard to get parents involved. While they are interested in getting excellence for their children, they are not all that keen on actually contributing to getting that excellence.
1325.
Mr Flanagan: Let me respond first, and then Mr McArdle will say a few words. Your articulation of how you have gone through this document is exactly the same as that of the task group when we first brought this paper to them. They thought that it did not go far enough. It was exactly the same with our education committee and with our council when we brought it to them. It was exactly the same with all three.
1326.
When we articulated our policy context, people clearly saw that there was a need to make policy decision before being able to move to structural determinations. The policy decisions around selection, open enrolment and curriculum need to be determined for the education authorities to move forward in relation to structures.
1327.
Secondly, central to the notion of this paper is the notion of election. Having worked with children and having been involved at school level as much as I have been, I have found that parents almost intuitively know what is best for their child. That has certainly been my experience. I witnessed only twice in my whole career in education parents making a decision that was wrong for their child.
1328.
Therefore, the notion of election is probably already embedded there. You must remember that 30% of parents do not put their children forward for the transfer test each year, because they are content to elect to or select the school of their choice. They are content with the alternative and the options that are available to their children.
1329.
A few more years would allow the child to mature. You could provide customised careers advice. You could have a record of achievement extending over a number of years, good interaction between the parents, the teacher and the child and a range of choices available that are realistic, have the parity of esteem and recognise the real world that we are getting into. Presently, one third of the long-term unemployed have A levels or better, so the grammar school system that we espouse is not necessarily producing people who are ready for work. There are difficulties in that sense.
1330.
We are involved here in a process of leadership, of inclusion and of setting clear guiding principles, and the schools have a part to play in that. In their prospectus, schools will set out their intentions; they will look at the area that they are working in, the type of intake that they have and the courses that they need to provide. They can go down a vocational or academic route, and a considerable number of schools will provide a range of choices under the one roof for children with a range of abilities, interests and aptitudes.
1331.
Mr McArdle: Mr Wilson referred to the options. We were making the point that there are currently 15,000 surplus places in the system. There is a decline in pupil numbers in the region of another 13,000 places. We need to address in a coherent and structured way the rationalisation of that issue. That effectively offers new opportunities. One of the ways in which open enrolment can be eased in the operation of the selection is that it could have the effect of contracting the network to an extent, and we would then be in a position to offer a significant number of places for most people. You would, therefore, get fewer disadvantaged or disappointed individuals.
1332.
In considering the transfer test, one of the things that has come out increasingly from the likes of Howard Gardiner as opposed to Prof John Gardner from Queen's is the difficulty in assessing intelligence. We have recognised that at the moment, the 11-plus does not predict the likely pathway in terms of academic capacity - it predicts achievement. To some extent we have to recognise that that is impacted upon by socio- economic factors. The evidence from DENI statistical bulletin 1/96 quite clearly shows that working-class individuals tend to do less well. We currently have a system that is in danger of creating new cells of cumulative disadvantage, and it is interesting that north and west Belfast are already showing those signs; that is why 'group one' is there.
1333.
Part of the Assembly's agenda - and it is a wonderful agenda - is not only the invigoration of the economy, but also for social inclusion. Our belief is excellence for all, but the problem we have is the time bomb of demographics. In our own council we are beginning the process of mapping that out in order to manage the situation in a meaningful way, because we do not believe that open enrolment should be permitted to allow schools to wither on the vine.
1334.
The second thing to address is John Anderson's statement made this morning "I cannot get IT specialists". You hear people from Bombardier and the shipyard talk about not being able to obtain engineers; you see the haemorrhage of people and what is happening in the South with the whole plethora of sub-degree type courses; you see the 'Strategy 2010' document saying that there needs to be reinvigoration, these issues cannot be looked at in isolation.
1335.
The grammar school and that type of education have an inordinate amount to deliver in all of this. We need to have a structured policy that lays out a particular set of pathways. We need flexibility for those who decide early on. I believe that 11 is not the right age for a child to make a life-shaping decision. The difficulty at the moment is if a child is not selected for a grammar school, then that child's life chances are diminished. The evidence was there in the Gardner Report, although we did not need that, because Shuttleworth did similar research in 1995. We need to have a policy that will reinvigorate the notion of vocational education, not in a simplistic or demeaning way, but one which will raise it to a status that is comparable to any of our academic pathways. We should be looking for that sort of approach and flexibility. We are not against academic excellence; in fact, we think that is necessary for all, but for choice there needs to be parity.
1336.
Mr McHugh: Fitness for purpose is a concept that comes up with the industry all the time, and, indeed, we raised this when we were in Germany. They seem to have moved to, or ended up with, some sort of open selection procedures from the first level right up to the final academic one.
1337.
The Gymnasium-type schools there have three levels providing some people with no choice at the bottom levels. I do not want to see that happening here. We should do something about that, as we do not want a situation where there are cells of deprivation in new areas. We need equality and choice in those circumstances, and perhaps you will tell us why this situation exists.
1338.
Who should carry out the manpower analysis? There are good reasons to find out what industry wants is one third of graduates are achieving good qualifications but have not managed to get jobs.
1339.
Mr McArdle: We have suggested that a strategic overview group may need to be brought into being running across several Departments - from the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment as well as the Department of Education. A systematic structured approach to an analysis of our needs is called for.
1340.
One of the things contributing to the regeneration of the economic situation in the South of Ireland has been the development of a strong sub-degree vocational element in education. When we discussed with the curriculum people in the South what planning had led to this vocational element, they said that they thought it had been fortuitous and that there had not been a structured approach. I admired their candour. Nonetheless, there is a message for Minister Farren and us. Mr Anderson told me that he is losing people when they bring in the industries. He gave me a wonderful figure that I will not quote, detailing what a 29-year-old was earning, and I thought to myself that I had made the wrong life decision years back.
1341.
My point is that there needs to be a structure. One of the things about the present devolved Administration is that bodies like this one will be in a position to demand that this exercise be undertaken. You have the capacity to insist that there is a cross-departmental approach. Eventually you will be provided with administrators within the system and an analysis of our needs, and those administrators will then be able to bend the resources to delivering those needs. We would go back to the point that it is for the policy makers and the Government.
1342.
Mr McHugh: We put the same question to the Ministry in Germany, and they said that as far as the Gymnasium sector was concerned the change in industry and the global situation did not matter. You still needed to have people going to those schools to be trained as leaders as opposed to plumbers. They were firm on that point.
1343.
Mr McArdle: No matter which of the Länder you go to, some of the Gymnasia are effectively almost comprehensive. Others are, de facto, grammar. The name of the third type of school escapes me at the moment, which was supposedly for the less academically gifted, but it has largely withered on the vine. A bipartite system, which, has emerged, in Germany, is predicated upon a respect for the vocational and technical aspects of education, but we have not engendered that approach in our community as yet, and we will not do it by rebadging an institution as vocational. The last time we had a real go at this approach on a UK-wide basis was with the so-called technical colleges in 1944, but only 2% of the population were educated in those establishments during that period. It has not been a success.
1344.
The Chairperson: Gentlemen, you will be aware of a certain toing and froing this morning. We are under pressure because of other matters. We are at the minimum complement for a quorum in respect of this Committee. I can verify that the suspected cases of foot-and-mouth disease in County Louth are now confirmed as positive. A serious state of affairs exists in the agriculture industry, and that is why the door of this room has seldom closed all morning.
1345.
Mr Gibson: I want to take a different approach to this. I read your document with tremendous interest, and I think it has made a worthwhile contribution to what we are discussing. I am concerned that people in the public debates have jumped at structures and forgotten about the whole education process. Universities are still demanding increasing standards, and if they do not get those through the public examinations, the universities will threaten to resort to setting their own. That happened in Germany. They thought that their standards were being diluted, and they said that society demands a particular standard. If we do not get it, we will lose; the economic race will lose, as will every other race unless we are pitched at this level. Have our universities adequately coped with this change of demand? You rightly said that in the South of Ireland there are sub-degree levels and a plethora of courses, and you can graduate in almost everything from packing cigarettes right up to a fairly high standard. Have our universities geared up? It does not matter how many forms or processes we introduce, third level education, in the broader sense, must meet the challenge.
1346.
Mr Flanagan: Obviously, the news that we have just heard has a devastating effect on many people around this table this morning. Mr Gibson is right to say that people have jumped to structures. If we jump to structures at this stage, we will lose the whole debate. We have been at this for 50 years, so we can take a little bit of time at this stage to try to get it right. That is why policy should be chosen as opposed to structures - the structures will come in due course.
1347.
You also, quite rightly, raised the issue of third level education and universities. We encountered this in Strabane at both further and higher education levels. There was a fear in Strabane that what we were creating would put other people out of business, particularly at further education level. That is where you have to move into the concept of lifelong learning in its real sense. The current problem about lifelong learning is that everybody talks about it as being a great theme, but the reality is that those who fail at school do not access lifelong learning. Children who have failed at school still fail in the lifelong learning process. That is a fact, and it has been well documented.
1348.
One of the guiding principles we used in Strabane was that we would try to increase access to third level education by what we were doing, whether that was through higher diplomas - HNC and HND levels - and into the whole concept of lifelong learning. Over the years we have seen how universities have responded to the needs of communities, the needs of adults and the needs of others. There will always be students that go through to university at the age of 18, but we hope to see other students entering university at 23, 25 or 30 years of age, as that will result in a more meaningful concept of lifelong learning. There are people involved in vocational education who move forward in terms of leadership roles and also take other second or third level degrees.
1349.
By looking at the issue of selection in this generic way, we feel that this will increase the numbers of young people and adults participating in third level education. Universities will have to adapt to change that, and over the last number of years we have seen that they have been able to adapt to changing circumstances and changing needs.
1350.
This is particularly evident in respect of the University of Ulster. Rather than sitting in Jordanstown or Coleraine to wait for the students to come to them, they have gone to the students; they have gone out to meet those needs.
1351.
The Chairperson: I am afraid, Gentlemen, that we will have to draw this session to a close. We have had a very useful exchange this morning, and I express gratitude to you on behalf of the Education Committee. It may well be that we will have a further opportunity to exchange our views on this, given the extension of time that has been allowed for it. Thank you for coming this morning.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr H Algeo )
Mr F McCallion ) Governing Bodies Association
Dr R.J Rodgers )
Mr J Miskelly )
1352.
The Chairperson: You are welcome to the Committee session. The representatives from the Governing Bodies Association will give a presentation and questions from Committee members will follow.
1353.
Mr Algeo: The Governing Bodies Association (GBA) was pleased to make a presentation to the Review Body on Post-Primary Education, and I thank the Education Committee for the opportunity to present the GBA's views on the review.
1354.
Mr Miskelly: The GBA believes that there should be diversity of quality school provision for all children in the Province and that each school should promote the fullest spiritual, moral and social development of each child committed to its charge. We should aim to promote learning to enrich quality of life and strengthen the community, pursue excellence in all its forms and encourage constructive parental involvement.
1355.
The present transfer test is no longer acceptable, but selection is inevitable and must be on merit. Any review of the curriculum must be capable of meeting the needs of all pupils across the range of academic and vocational abilities. An examination of the appropriate structures necessary to deliver the curriculum should follow. The undisputed link between social deprivation and low achievement is not unique to Northern Ireland. A major social initiative is necessary at the earliest possible stage and to promote primary schools.
1356.
The present transfer test and the arrangements surrounding it are less than satisfactory and other options must be explored. The concept of continuous assessment is now well embedded in all aspects of education and the workplace. The GBA favours the monitoring and recording of pupils' progress from P1 to P7 in a range of skills, gifts and talents, based on a shared responsibility between teacher, principal, parent and pupil and together with some modification to Key Stage 2 assessment. In a system of academic and vocational schools, admissions should be on merit and reflect pupils' achievements, talents, gifts and aspirations in conjunction with teacher and parental guidance.
1357.
The age of transfer should remain as it is. Transfer at age 14 has several disadvantages. The word "selection" has unfortunate connotations; "choice" would be better. Such choice on merit is inevitable, and the right to choose should be extended to all schools. A uniform system of comprehensive schools is not acceptable, nor would it meet the needs of the pupils. The Programme for Government published recently states that the Northern Ireland Executive seek to
"provide high quality education to all".
1358.
The needs of business and industry will also be considered. The Scottish system was acceptable in that country when introduced, but it is no longer satisfactory. Results in Scotland cannot be properly compared with those in Northern Ireland.
1359.
The common curriculum is now generally recognised as inappropriate to a large number of pupils. Many leaders of industry and business testify to pupils' lack of ability in mathematics and English. Some firms now run their own training schemes to ensure that employees attain a reasonable level in basic skills.
1360.
The success of the school improvement programme and other such initiatives cannot be denied. There is, however, a better way of recognising the diversity of gifts that young people possess, and the curriculum should be built around their varied abilities. Appropriate changes to the curriculum would help to motivate and engage those who are not motivated to learn.
1361.
High academic standards must also be maintained or improved if Northern Ireland is to remain competitive in a changing world. Fashionable subject choices will not provide the bedrock necessary for the twenty-first century, nor will information technology alone. The spiritual dimension must not be lost, although the Department of Education found no place for it in its latest strategic plan. The Governing Bodies Association cannot ignore the heritage passed down from founding trustees, who were originally responsible for providing educational establishments in Ireland.
1362.
With regard to social deprivation, there will inevitably be resource implications, whatever decisions are taken following the review. Schools, governors, trustees and employing authorities are continually under pressure from new legislation and consequential increased operating costs. The equality issues emanating from human rights requirements will impinge upon school budgets. Any change that would result in the emergence of an independent grammar or secondary school sector is to be deplored and would only emphasise social division. There is ample evidence to show that where resources are directed to meet particular needs and standards, the esteem in which schools, their pupils and staff are held has been raised. Considerable inroads have been made with a number of initiatives, and those should continue. All pupils have a basic right to an education provision, suitable to their needs, to enable them to mature into employable and responsible young adults.
1363.
The review body has not been asked to report on the financial implications, but it is essential to point out that, in any reorganised system, additional resources must be found; a mere redistribution is not the answer. Any outcome which - yet again, for the third time in 30 years - produces winners and losers may create more social problems. Equality of opportunity is essential, as is fair treatment. Equality of provision, however, does not mean equal treatment.
1364.
I am anxious to draw to the Committee's attention the proposal by the Department of Education to go to public consultation on commonality of funding. It seems rather strange that they are proceeding with that when the curriculum changes are to be shelved until 2003, and particularly strange to look at funding as the review body continues its work.
1365.
We recognise that poverty must be tackled, but with a greater input from social services and, where appropriate, the community. Diversity of school provision should continue. If a change in structure flows from a local initiative, that should be accommodated with due consideration and consultation. Our universities are not the same, but have different history, ethos and course provision. School provision should be further developed on academic, vocational and technical lines, meeting the real needs of pupils.
1366.
From the attendances at public meetings of the review body, it is evident that, in several areas, there is considerable satisfaction with the school system. It is clear from the views expressed at meetings that there is - and will be - a wide divergence of opinion. To take score and attempt to change our education system following public meetings and written submissions will not provide a secure result. There is a need to stop and ponder. We are pleased that the review body has been granted an extension of time to complete its work.
1367.
We should not change to meet ideological social demand but, rather, facilitate change as it evolves. In simple terms, we should conserve the best and improve the rest. If our present system is so unacceptable, how have we achieved the highest results in the United Kingdom? There has been little regard to the significant improvement in all types of school. In 1985-86, 19·5% of children left school without any formal qualifications. In 1998-99, the figure was 3·1%. I think that following that, the figure went down to 2·7% and for 2001, it should be down below 2%.
1368.
The Chairperson: You say that we should conserve the best and improve the rest. However, a large number of people who have made representations to us as an Education Committee say that the grammar school system creates elitism and that it is impossible to improve the status of the rest while that system is in place.
1369.
Dr Rodgers: I have a problem with the term "elitism". If, as it has been claimed, 40% of the post- primary population attend grammar schools, that seems to me like rather a large elite. I am first generation grammar school, so my case illustrates the fact that there is no disadvantage to those who come from a lower social category. The statistics prove that even in social categories 3 (manual) to 5 Northern Ireland sends markedly more people to university than any of the other countries in the rest of the British Isles. So, there is no disadvantage to children from a different social category. Anyone who knows the grammar school world will know that there is a good representation of all classes. One of the advantages that we claim for our schools is that we do not take account of social class.
1370.
Mr Gibson: People have used various means of getting around selection. They have invented new terms such as "informed choice". As long as we have universities and competition for jobs is there an alternative to grading, selection, parental choice or informed choice? Sometimes, we jump from one argument to another. Public debate has concentrated on structures; no one has looked at education or at what society needs. No one - in this Committee or any other group involved in education - would get off lightly if we do not produce something better at the end of this. How can we do that?
1371.
Mr McCallion: I agree with you. There was an interesting series of articles in 'The Glasgow Herald' during November. The Fabian Society in Scotland proposed that public schools in Scotland should be forbidden to select children on the basis of ability. The public school population is quite significant there: 4% overall in Scotland, 25% in Edinburgh, 15% in Glasgow. Then letters arrived, saying that that would be a mistake and that, instead, the University of Edinburgh should be forced to take 10% of entrants from the lowest socio-economic groups, 3M to 5. If Queen's University decided to take only 10%, it would cut its intake by a factor of two or three. We do that job and meet our requirements very well. Our task is to determine how we can improve the lot of our children, and the grammar school system has been successful in doing that. Not only have the grammar schools been very successful, the secondary schools have, too.
1372.
I know how popular the decision not to publish results was; when the Minister made his announcement, everyone said publicly how clever he was. In 1992, 22% of children in Northern Ireland secondary schools got five GCSEs; the figure is now 33%. Judging by the figures for pupils getting five GCSEs, English school results are improving, but they are not as good as ours. Indeed, they are still falling behind. The system in Northern Ireland improved results for all children. People might say that grammar schools wish to keep the present system, but we have almost reached a plateau at about 95%. No doubt we should improve, but there is not much improvement that we can make. The place for improvement is in the secondary schools, which have been doing a great job ever since it became an issue that they should improve.
1373.
In 1990, I was principal of a secondary school in the Twinbrook area of Belfast. I remember an awful conversation with a senior teacher. I had been in the school for six weeks when he asked me, "What sort of a joint do you want?" I asked him what he was talking about. He said "Shall we have education for unemployment or leisure or sex or smoking or health?" I let him go on, for I thought that he would run out of subjects. However, when he reached the fifteenth, I had to stop him. I said that I wanted a school that would improve the children's chances. That is the sort of education system that we want. We cannot say that the system in Scotland or the comprehensive system in England or Wales improve the lot of children. When they get as good as us - or start catching up - I shall look at it.
1374.
Mr Gibson: The mistake that secondary schools made was trying to ape grammar schools. Is that not the fundamental mistake of the 60s?
1375.
Dr Rodgers: I agree with what Mr Gibson said earlier. Wherever there are more applications for places than a school can accommodate - whatever the structure - there will have to be some form of selection. "Selection" has acquired an unfortunate image, but there will have to be some "choice". - whatever term is used will be loaded in some way. We have been anxious to find an alternative to the present selection procedure. There are difficulties with the current system, and we are not set to defend it. Over the years, we have asked people to talk to us about finding a better way of selection. An agreed form of selection is certainly preferable to selection by postcode, parish or the will of the individual school. If more people apply for a school than it has places for, there must be some way of determining entry.
1376.
If the Committee has not already done so, it would be advantageous for it to invite Dr Hugh Morrison of the post-graduate School of Education at Queen's to talk to it. He is engaged in interesting research on assessment that has the potential not only to improve assessment in the primary and other sectors but to remove from the shoulders of primary teachers and principals the responsibility to make assessments in place of an examination. It would be of great interest and value to the Committee to have Dr Morrison show it the direction of his research; it has great potential.
1377.
The Chairperson: We shall consider that.
1378.
Mr McElduff: What are the disadvantages of transferring at the age of 14?
1379.
Dr Rodgers: I received a letter from a consultant psychiatrist, Dr Arthur Kerr, who wrote to me in my capacity as chairman of a voluntary grammar school. He said
"One area of particular concern which I feel is important is the age of transfer and selection process from primary to secondary education. I feel this should remain at age 11 and not be delayed to the age of 14. Apart from the fact that this may 'offer the best prospect of desirable continuity in all post primary schools' it is a very sensitive age psychologically for teenagers. Fourteen year old adolescents are notoriously preoccupied with anxieties and apprehensions about their future. They harbour ambivalent feelings as regards their home and parents. On the one hand wishing to become independent of the home and striving to do so, and on the other hand being dependent on home for emotional and financial support. In some cases this can lead to arguments and distress to both parents and child. They also have many other anxieties such as concern re their physical appearance, eg, acne and body weight, and secondary sexual characteristics and concern re their acceptance by the opposite sex. They are often also preoccupied with philosophical ideas re life and death, etc. Most adolescents cope reasonably well but several do not, and to impose the selection test, and perhaps a change of school, at this stage could be psychologically damaging and insensitive."
1380.
That expands what Mr Miskelly said about our preference for transfer at the age of 11, rather than 14. The other thing that impressed me at review body meetings was the number of parents who said that their children were ready to change school at the age of 11.
1381.
Mr K Robinson: You mentioned the Key Stage 2 assessment and suggested some sort of modification. What sort of modification would be suitable?
1382.
Mr McCallion: We are stuck with the exam. We live with the 11-plus and the transfer system as best we can, and make it work as best we can. We do not have an answer. We know what we want - a defendable examination that is seen to be fit for its purpose and which will have no high jumps. At present, a child sits the 11-plus on one of two days, or one of three days, and cannot repeat it unless he or she is under age. It is almost impossible to repeat it. That is completely out of kilter with other examinations. The only other similar system would be something like final examinations in, for example, medicine, and even in that case students who are sick are allowed to sit them on another occasion.
1383.
Examinations such as the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) are carried out internationally and are tested on a selection of children in Northern Ireland every three or four years to provide a comparison with western industrial nations. One of the advantages of a good internationally recognised standard test is that we know what will happen if we put an examination into our system: our teachers are good, our parents are absolutely committed to education, as are our children, who will do better. The problem with examinations in Northern Ireland is that levels of attainment keep rising. Such an examination if it is open to all children and is a good, defendable examination will show that the average level of achievement in English, maths and science in Northern Ireland is rising and will give international recognition to that fact. When we say to the outside world, "Come to Northern Ireland - it is a good idea", we could also say, "In international tests, Northern Ireland gets better results, and we can see it." We shall not have the situation that we had the last time that Bill Clinton was here, when the mayor of Dundalk stood on a podium and said, "Dundalk is a wonderful place in which to invest; we have a fantastic regional technical college and a magnificent education system." What if people looked to Northern Ireland and said "Northern Ireland is actually quite good, and its education system is kind of superb." That would be of advantage to us all.
1384.
The exam should be not just for grammar and secondary schools but for society. It is in everyone's interest that our children read better and do better at maths and science.
1385.
Mr K Robinson: You mentioned that 40% of our children are now in grammar schools. Is it right that 40% of the next generation is in that form of education? Can all those children cope with the work in a grammar school? I ask that because I suspect that if education authorities go on putting pupils with Cs and Ds into grammar schools in certain areas, they will bring about comprehensive education anyway.
1386.
Mr McCallion: The disadvantage of being successful is that one has to live with one's success. We must live with the fact that parents perceive certain schools as good and want their children to go to them. Also, when 94-95% of children fulfil the criteria, people are inclined to say "Well, that is good. Why would you want to draw back?" Probably we should never have been made the offer, but 20 years ago we were given quotas to fill. I know of principals in grammar schools who have asked their board to draw back 10-20 places, because they could not find the numbers.
1387.
As principal of Aquinas Grammar School, which was a brand new school with a quota of 110, I sat in terror of my intake in the first year. I got 20 As, 40 Bs and 40 Cs, and I had to live with that. I had to get the grades at the other end, and I was pleased with the outcome, but in many ways we are stuck with what we have.
1388.
We are aware that the number of pupils in the system is going down. The Belfast Education and Library Board is especially aware of that. We do not know what we should do. It would be easier to discuss were we not also discussing our future in the review of education. We are aware of the problem, and we shall have to discuss it.
1389.
Mr McHugh: If we are dealing with lower numbers and, consequently, bringing more C-grades into academic schools, we will end up - as is sometimes the case elsewhere - with a large number of pupils who are unable to compete. I am also against the present situation because of the number of pupils who are deemed to be failures. You support some sort of test, but that continues the idea that people will fail.
1390.
You say you have been trying to achieve a new selection system, but how hard have you been trying? I should not have thought that the academic schools had tremendous interest in finding a solution that would remove them from the top of the perch.
1391.
Dr Rodgers: Mr Robinson might well have been sitting in on a number of meetings of the executive of the GBA to have asked the questions that he did. If he had, he would have heard at least one of its members - and I am too modest to mention who that member was - say repeatedly, not recently but over the years, that it was wrong for us to have taken the blandishments of the offer that Mr McCallion has referred to. My view is that selection and the academic school cater better for a more rigorously selective group of children.
1392.
As to there being a sense of failure, my whole life has been in education, and I am concerned that every child should savour success of some kind. That is the motivation behind our suggestion that there should be an alternative to an academic track. There is certainly a place for the academic track, and I do not think that anyone is suggesting that there is no place for it. The report on which the review body is operating mentioned specifically some of the benefits of what it calls the "grammar school effect", but I take the view that we ought not to be seeking to increase the number of children attending grammar school. I would be content to see the number reduced, but we should be looking at those who are capable of benefiting from an academic education.
1393.
We want a system in which every child will be choosing the school, or parents will be helping the child to choose the post-primary school where his or her abilities will most be represented. Children could, therefore go to the academic school having failed to persuade the non-academic school that that suited their abilities.
1394.
You touched on a very sensitive point, and we are with you on that. I want to remove the sense of failure that children have, and the best way to do that is to work towards some kind of parity of esteem where different kinds of school are specialising in what we call "dual school system". We see that as the best means of removing any stigma of imagined failure on the part of any child.
1395.
Mr K Robinson: We are talking about different systems of schooling at secondary level. The word "vocational" education has been flung around this room and bounced off the walls and ceiling. What do you understand as a vocational type of education?
1396.
Mr Algeo: I think you have all been sitting in all our meetings.
1397.
Dr Rodgers: Yes. It depends on whose answer you want. Mr Robinson will have noticed that I did not use the term "vocational." I used the term "non-academic" as a specialism for the simple reason that there is no universally-approved definition of what "vocational" is. There is vocational/technical.
1398.
Mr McCallion and I recently sat in the consultative forum of the review body of which we are both members and heard one definition of "vocational" which took in every aspect of education. No aspect was not vocational, and from one point of view that is possible.
1399.
In my experience - and I am sure that Mr Robinson has wider experience with a different age group - there are children who are more gifted academically than others. What has been wrong, which Mr Gibson pointed out, is that we have tended to think that there is only one criterion of success, and that is the academic. We are trying to get away from that. We are trying to recognise the abilities that hitherto have not been recognised as they ought to have been in children who do not possess the academic abilities. There is some evidence, which Mr McCallion referred to, that they have been succeeding in the public examinations. However, we want them to succeed in the areas in which they are strong. That is not a direct answer, but it is an honest one.
1400.
The Chairperson: I appreciate that.
1401.
Mr McCallion: Our education system always reminds me of the motorway along the lough shore. The academic part of it is the five-lane highway. Everybody knows where it is; everyone has been on it.
1402.
If you are lost, it is simple as there are many signs. Can someone show me the sign that says "Vocational Education"?
1403.
Mr K Robinson: It is beside the sign that says "Newtownabbey" - it is not there.
1404.
Mr McCallion: It must be a tiny road somewhere in Northern Ireland. For around 20 years we have talked about vocational education but we have not demonstrated it. That can be seen if you look at what further education colleges were in the 1970s, and then look at who they want to attract today - they want children who are doing A levels or are repeating their A levels. I suspect they will want a lot of those who will be doing foundation degree courses. Why do they not want children for training in the skills that we are desperately in need of? At the review meeting in Lisburn, Jeffrey Donaldson said that the next day he was going to meet an employer who had 100 jobs and who was going to leave the Lisburn area because he could not find anyone to employ. It makes you wonder what is wrong. We have thrown away the knowledge of that skill basis. Look at Shorts,, and Harland and Wolff. You think of them as they were and how they took their place anywhere in the world. Where is our equivalent? Where is our honouring of the equivalent? We do not do that as a society.
1405.
The Chairperson: You will understand that there is a strong lobby for comprehensive education and for such a system to be introduced. In spite of your strong advocacy, if it were to be accepted, how do you see the future? We will not engage in speculation, but what effect would they have on grammar schools?
1406.
Mr Algeo: It depends how it develops, to what extent "comprehensivisation" takes place and how that would take place. Let us take the example we have seen in England. If it is anything like that - and we have seen what has been happening in Northern Ireland - then we do not have to answer your question. We just have to direct you to look at the facts.
1407.
Mr Miskelly brought the facts to our attention earlier. Northern Ireland has the best outcomes in three areas - and in many other areas also - for all the children. We have the lowest number of children leaving school with no qualifications - it is below 3%. It is 5% in Wales, 7% in England and about 4% in Scotland. We have significantly better results right across the board at GCSE and A level. We have the highest number of youngsters from the most disadvantaged areas going to university. Do we want to throw all that away to repeat an experiment that has clearly failed in England? Even in the last few months, we have seen the Government in England tacitly admitting that it had been a mistake.
1408.
Mr Gibson: "Bog standard".
1409.
Mr Algeo: Yes, "bog standard" schools - a terrible indictment. We can improve on what we have but it is already significantly better than the alternative being proposed. We have seen that in England and Wales. We find it incomprehensible that the Assembly would go back down that route and not give a political lead to the people of Northern Ireland, point out the advantages of what we have and let us try to improve upon that further.
1410.
Mr K Robinson: One group that is causing us - and the whole of society - concern is that tail at the end. I know that Mr McCallion has experience of it in Belfast. How would you Gentlemen, coming from the grammar school background, help us to address that tail?
1411.
Mr Miskelly: I would like to tell you about an experience I have had. I believe that the curriculum has been wrong for many children. What do you do with the young person of 13 years of age who wants to spend their time at woodwork? It is regarded as old-fashioned to say that. What do you do with the young person who wants to be a grave digger? My son wanted to be a motor mechanic and he became one - he is a Peugeot- trained mechanic. He has never felt a sense of failure, is married with a family and is an upright citizen.
1412.
He was given the opportunity at the age of 16 to go and do an apprenticeship, and he was successful in that. When his class was asked "What do you want to do for work experience?", one boy said that he wanted to dig graves. That lad had a very poor attendance record at school. He was not at school because that was exactly what he was doing. Today he is a grave digger. He is a well-balanced citizen and a successful grave digger. I am only illustrating a point.
1413.
The Chairperson: I am loath to encourage grave digging as a career.
1414.
Mr Gibson: He has a guaranteed supply of customers.
1415.
Mr McCallion: I want to make a point about England, on which one needs to be careful. England adopted a comprehensive system. There are 130 or 140 local education authorities (LEAs) in England. All of them have the same problems. What happens when you take a grammar school and turn it into a comprehensive? If you look at the research in England, the schools are not doing as well as they did when they were grammar schools and they are more socially divisive now than they have ever been. For example, we will consider Methodist College, which is situated on the Malone Road. Do you want to live near that school or St Colm's in Twinbrook? They reply would be "I would rather have the Malone Road, especially if I can afford it". What will that do to the house prices in that part of the Malone Road? They will rise. You will have a form of selection there. That applies in large sections of England and even in areas where you find that comprehensive schools appear to be successful.
1416.
Comprehensives are socially very divided. If you go to the Wirral in Cheshire or to the Isles of Scilly, there are not many labourers' children at the local high status comprehensive - they tend to attend another comprehensive school. We cannot do away with the history that we have in Northern Ireland. We have our history and we will live with it.
1417.
The Scottish model is different. They have a simple solution. You draw a line and you tell people what school they are going to. You draw a line down the middle of the motorway or down the middle of a road and you say that all the people on the left will go to one school, and all the people on the right will go to another. There will be no single-sex schools. Why not? You cannot have single-sex schools in a system like that because people are divided according to the left side of the road and the right side of the road. Unless all the people on the left are boys and all the ones on the right are girls, it is "goodbye" to single-sex schools. Co-education schools are a very good idea. I worked most of my teaching life in them. However, in Northern Ireland a significant number of parents have strong opinions on the subject, which they are entitled to.
1418.
I do not see the Scottish model working in Northern Ireland because you know what it would be like. Parents would be coming to you and saying "I know I live on the right hand side of the road but I want my children to go to the school on the left hand side of the road". There would be so many arrangements. If you live on the right hand side of the road what can you do? You can apply to the school. If the school is oversubscribed, your child will not get in. If the school is not oversubscribed then an officer in the education and library board - or the local education authority - looks at your child's application and decides, in his or her wisdom, that your child is getting into the school. The fact that a child has a brother or a sister there already is not good grounds for sending the child there. The question of families is important. You understand the important issue - the left hand side of the road and the right hand side of the road. That is how the system works in Scotland.
1419.
The difficulty with wonderful linear models such as comprehensive education is that the theory is fantastic but when you get down to the details it is "You are number 57? That is tough. If you had been 56, we could have sorted your problem out". That is the difficulty we will have. Our system is messy, but it has the advantage that it works, quite well. Could it get better? Certainly, that would not be a problem.
1420.
Dr Rodgers: There is another aspect to your question. We did not come here to advocate that every post-primary school in the Province should be a grammar school. Whatever merits we believe grammar schools to possess, we are not suggesting that every school should be one. Equally, it would be wrong to suggest that every school should be the same whatever it is called - a comprehensive school, a two-tier school or a junior or senior high school. There is no reason why a monolithic system should exist across Northern Ireland. That will not happen so long as we have controlled and maintained schools. There will not be exactly the same thing.
1421.
For example, the Craigavon system is sometimes held up to us as though it were a single type of school. There is not similarly a mosaic of structure across the Province. Why can it not be like that across the Province? There may be areas in which a comprehensive system of education is approved by the local community and which includes the principles that we all want to see, such as parity of esteem, equality of opportunity and flexibility of exchange. What is wrong with having a different system in Strabane, Armagh, Craigavon or Greater Belfast? What is wrong with a mosaic, so long as the important principles that all of us recognise and accept are recognised within it?
1422.
As I have said, we are not suggesting that every school should be a grammar school. We are emphatically saying that not every school should be a comprehensive school, but not that there are no areas in which a comprehensive system, approved by the local community and including the basic principles, should not exist.
1423.
The Chairperson: Unfortunately, time has beaten us and our 45 minutes is almost up. It has been a very useful exchange, and I hope that you share that view. Apologies for the long delay that you had to endure. We appreciate your presentation and your interest. We may have another opportunity to met as this enormously important debate progresses. Thank you very much.
1424.
Mr Algeo: We would like the opportunity at some stage to discuss other issues of education with the Committee, because the process goes on and we feel that some of it could be lost in the spotlight of this review.
1425.
The Chairperson: Absolutely, we will remain open to that. Thank you very much.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr P MacMuiris )
Mr F Ó hÍr ) Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta
Ms C Ruane )
1426.
The Chairperson: I am pleased to welcome Mr MacMuiris, Mr Ó hÍr and Ms Ruane, who are representatives from Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta. We look forward to your presentation, after which there will be an opportunity for members to ask questions.
1427.
Mr MacMuiris: As education officer, I have been asked to make this short presentation. First, I would like to thank the Committee for allowing us the opportunity to express our views on the debate on the reform of structures at post-primary level. Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta has already had an opportunity to give background information on the structure of Irish-medium schools and on the philosophic idea of immersion and bilingual education systems. Like many other people, we feel that the debate is a unique opportunity, given the greater autonomy of our institutions, for local politicians to take responsibility for education reform, perhaps for the first time in our history. We can establish a system - right through from 3 to 18 - which suits our children and young people.
1428.
Our views on the selection procedure at 11-plus have already been submitted to the Committee. I do not wish to dwell on that topic. As far as Irish-medium education is concerned, the test is totally unsuitable to children learning in a bilingual situation. It has been shown statistically - we have made the point in our paper - that it is unfair, lacks validity, and lacks reliability as an educational instrument. Therefore Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta wishes to see the 11-plus taken out of the education system.
1429.
It is not a good transfer system socially, or educationally. It is socially divisive, it divides families, friends, communities and schools. Educationally, it succeeds in producing a large number of well qualified young people at 18-plus, but it also leaves in its wake a large swathe of under-achievement. In the Belfast Education and Library Board area, the under-achievement of young people - particularly young males in north and west Belfast - is due in part, if not totally, to the 11-plus and the differentiated school system. The 11-plus does not suit Irish-medium education, and it is socially divisive and educationally damaging. That is why Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta wants the 11-plus abolished.
1430.
The proposed changes to post-primary education structures will have an impact on Irish-medium education and on the wider education system. Gallagher and Smith put forward five possible scenarios, including delaying selection to 14-plus, as in the Craigavon model. Due to the number of children involved in Irish-medium education, it is difficult to envisage a situation in which there would be a multiplicity of post-primary Irish-medium schools. Therefore Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta is against delayed selection and against common primary and lower secondary schools, followed by differentiated upper secondary schools. We are not in favour of the second option because that model exists in highly populated countries such as Germany and would be difficult to replicate in Northern Ireland, which has a population of 1·5 million. When post-primary education is restructured - if it is restructured - we must not assume that just because a model works in one economic, social or demographic environment that it will necessarily work in Northern Ireland. That would be foolish.
1431.
Another option put forward by Gallagher and Smith was differentiated post-primary schools. Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta is against that option . That was what the secondary and grammar system started out - and failed - to do in Northern Ireland. It has failed too many people and has not brought the expected economic gains. Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta is against the status quo. We want an end to selection at 11-plus.
1432.
For the first time in the history of our education system, there is an opportunity to ask how we can provide as many young people as possible - from 11 through their teenage years into young adulthood -with the widest choice of educational experience for the longest time possible. Why does society have to select people or freeze them out of the system because they are not fit to go along that path any longer? Why can there not be the widest choice for the greatest number of people for as long as possible? Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta is against selection. We would like to keep the curriculum open for as long as possible with a wide choice, ranging between academic, technical and vocational education, not forgetting the fine arts, which are often placed in an inferior position in the education system.
1433.
We are in favour of educating our children under one roof, in a system that gives them access to learning opportunities that are not selective and do not force them to specialise too early. Other countries can pick and mix; young people have opportunities to develop skills in information technology, languages and other subjects all the way through post-primary education. When there is a need to select what one wants to study - and everyone, at some stage in their educational career, needs to narrow their choices - students and their parents should be consulted. Such decisions should not just be at the whim of a state-organised measurement instrument that gives young people no choice. In the year 2001, that is medieval.
1434.
We would be disappointed if the debate, at both a political and societal level, were based on structures in such a way that people were hoping just to tinker with them and change them as easily as possible. In terms of personal, social, academic and economic advantage what do our young people need to achieve in their educational experiences? If we establish that, we might be able to create the structures to deliver those things.
1435.
Post-primary Irish-medium schools are non- selective, all-ability and gender integrated. Meánscoil Feirste has proved that the system works. Young people who were deemed to be failures in the 11-plus exam have done extremely well in an all-ability, all- through school. Bilingual and immersion education systems throughout the world show that children tend to do better in that kind of environment.
1436.
Why can we not create educational learning opportunities for our young people in structures that suit us and not England or Germany or wherever? Scotland has always maintained its independence in determining educational structures and is an example of how systems that suit the local people work.
1437.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much. My analysis of what you said is that you are advocating all-ability comprehensive schools in some form. Is that a fair assumption?
1438.
Mr MacMuiris: The word "comprehensive" is loaded, because of the history of the education debate in the past 30 years. We choose not to use that word. We prefer to talk about all-through, all-ability integrated schools.
1439.
The Chairperson: Some would say that that is shorthand for a comprehensive system. However, we should not get wrapped up in the terms used. When we look at England and other parts of Europe, we see that comprehensive education is being critically examined and carefully scrutinised. Why do you feel so strongly that it should be used in Northern Ireland?
1440.
Mr MacMuiris: We do not have time to go into the details, but the history of comprehensive schools in England shows that the level of achievement has continued to rise, across the board, since the schools were introduced. It was always felt that the Conservative Party in its heartlands would be the great bastion of grammar schools and selective education. In fact, when Margaret Thatcher, Lord Young and Sir Keith Joseph tried to dismantle the comprehensive system, it was people in the Tory heartlands who said that it was working well and that it should not be abolished. There is a mistaken belief that comprehensive schools have been failing. Statistics show that they have continued to offer higher levels of qualification to a greater number of people since their introduction. That is irrefutable.
1441.
Mr Ó hÍr: I have been involved in the delivery of education for some 30 years. I taught in a secondary school in the English-medium sector for 20 years, and I am now am in the Irish-medium sector as head teacher of Meánscoil Feirste. I went to a grammar school, so like most present, that I have experience of that. These debates can get bogged down in ideological positions and the use of labels. As an educationalist, I want to draw back from that and give reasons from my experience, and from what I have seen of young people going through the system, for what I advocate.
1442.
I firmly believe that when you enable, empower and encourage young people in educational endeavour, they will respond positively. The corollary is that when they are told that they are unable to do things and that they are failures, they respond negatively. I worked for a long time in the secondary sector, and I saw young people coming through who had been told at the age of 11 that they were a failure and who responded accordingly. Children are not stupid. If they are told that they are not able to do something - whatever nice terminology is used - they take the point, and they respond accordingly. I have seen it in streaming in a school. If class members are told that they are the low achievers, they will be a class of low achievers.
1443.
When we started the Meánscoil, the Irish language school, it gave me, and others, the opportunity - I am not claiming all the glory for this - to try to do things differently. We established an inclusive system, in which all students are valued and made to believe that they can achieve. There may be debates about the Irish language, bilingualism and inclusiveness, but we can show that our system has worked, despite the fact that it exists within a selective system in which some of the more academic students go to grammar schools and are lost to us. We have proved that by encouraging students to achieve, giving them choice and not blocking them, within our limitations, we give them choice, and they respond positively.
1444.
We have had pupils who have failed - to use that loaded term - the 11-plus. We like to say that they do not fail - they get an A, B, C or D grade - but the students know what they are talking about. They have an attitude that reflects the fact that they have been told that they have failed. However, some of our students have achieved high grades at GCSE and GCE level and are now at university. If we give opportunities to young people, they will respond to them. That is the system that we are trying to achieve. We do not want to block opportunities for children.
1445.
Mrs E Bell: I agree with most of what you have said. How can we find the resources that may be needed for that. You stated in your paper that, whatever the structures, there must be the capacity to allow young people the widest choice. Would that be a good starting point for the next step in the procedure? That would take into account the pupils and the parents. Parents' involvement is necessary, and that is the ethos that you are promoting. Is that a good basis for going forward?
1446.
Mr Ó hÍr: My approach has always been that there are three major players in education - the student, who is central, the teacher and the parents. That triangle has to be involved the whole way through, supporting students and helping them to make informed decisions. Parental involvement is vital.
1447.
We want resources to be available to everyone. I do not want to slam grammar schools; much good work has been done there. However, there has been an imbalance in resources. We want the best for all students. Some people think that grammar schools are better, but we will not get into that argument.
1448.
Mrs E Bell: If you start off on that basis, the resources should go along with that. One of your recommendations is that we should put pupils first.
1449.
Mr MacMuiris: The situation is unique. For the first time, we have a chance to make a decision about how education can contribute to our society. We must start from a zero base position of saying, "what do we want, and how much is it going to cost?" More successful countries in Europe spend proportionately more of their gross national product on education than the United Kingdom and Ireland. Socially and economically, and at many other levels, those countries success arises from that. There may be a chance for us to make the decision that a greater investment in education may bring greater returns.
1450.
Ms Ruane: I am involved with Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta as a parent. I feel privileged that my children and lots of other children are experiencing such great opportunities. Uniquely, our children start in naíscoileanna at the age of three; then they go to the bunscoileanna and the meánscoileanna. It is a natural progression, as opposed to going to a playschool and then to a bunscoil. Parental involvement has been crucial, and parents feel strongly that our input is welcome. They are crying out for our support, and that support is given.
1451.
Having spoken to colleagues in Europe, I feel strongly that in the North and South of Ireland, we need to consider the fact that our teachers are not getting the support that they should be getting. It is a bit like the nursing problem - it is only when they are gone that we will realise what we had. I have great admiration for teachers in all sectors, but I have special admiration for teachers in the smaller sectors such as integrated and Irish language. They need support.
1452.
Mr McElduff: A Chathaoirligh, ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an fhoireann ó Chomhairle na Gaelscolaíochta. I would like to welcome the delegation from Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta. I share the concern that the term "comprehensive" has become so value- laden. People talk about "all-ability" schools because of that concern. Although we are glad to see the back of league or performance tables, I would like to note that Meánscoil Feirste performed very well.
1453.
In your submission, you mentioned extra difficulties that people faced with the transfer test, which were not accommodated, for example translation or coverage of special skills which people had learnt, which were not referred to. Could you talk about that? The debate is not just about structures, it is about the values and philosophy of education, or oideachas. Is the debate timely or are we rushing things?
1454.
Mr MacMuiris: The 11-plus was constructed for children educated in a monolingual situation. It was established to test someone's ability, and to pick children who could progress successfully through a highly academic, knowledge-based, subject-driven curriculum. In as far as that is what was meant by it, it worked. However, it certainly does not work for children in a bilingual situation. For many of them, the language of instruction is their second language. In that sense, the 11-plus examination cannot measure adequately the performance of the children in a bilingual situation. There is no attempt in the test to measure the children's ability in English or in a second language. It is totally inappropriate, and it has been shown statistically to be unreliable, which means that it does not test what it is supposed to test. It is invalid, in that several people who have been deemed to be failures are actually very successful, and as many as 9% of the people who are deemed to be successes make no progress through the system. As an educational instrument, it is deficient and should be done away with.
1455.
Mr McElduff: Is it timely or are we in a hurry?
1456.
Mr MacMuiris: We would say, as so many others have said, that we should not rush in, look quickly at the structures that we have and the structures that other people have and then make a decision on which one we can afford. With a little bit of creativity and a little bit of stretching, we can decide, not just what kind of education system we want, but what kind of system would maximise the opportunities for our young people and optimise the results for society, in the broadest terms - economically and culturally.
1457.
We have an opportunity to create the structures that will work best for Irish-medium education, for integrated education, for state-controlled systems, for voluntary systems and so on. Irish-medium education is not cut off from everywhere else. We have said to the Committee and in other places that we are willing to look at post-primary education structures Given that greater element of choice, a system might have flexibility built into it, so that young people from Mr Ó hÍr's school could go to an integrated or a state- controlled school to get that portion of their education, between the ages of 11 and 16. We are not saying that we only want one system of education for our children.
1458.
Mr McHugh: You mentioned the comprehensive system and the way that the media and others have hyped it as being a failure in Britain. I am glad to hear you say that that is not exactly the case, although that is not widely known.
1459.
On the question of economics you stated that the present situation has not brought economic gain. Perhaps you could elaborate on that statement, the failure of the present system and how your own system would perform better.
1460.
What impact has parental support had on the ability of children to advance rather than be labelled a failure? That support can continue in the years after the 11-plus.
1461.
Mr MacMuiris: In Europe it has been shown on the economic front that countries introducing early education - as Ms Ruane said, from the age of three onwards - have also introduced degrees of bilingual or multilingual education. Those countries have built-in learning opportunities that involve not just knowledge- based essay-type assessment, but that do include curriculums involving skills and attitudes learning. The education systems in those countries do not narrow down options too early, but give young people a broad choice and education.
1462.
In the workplace it has been shown that certain people have highly developed planning skills, interpersonal and professional communication, flexibility and transferable skills. I am not making a political point, but Britain chose to cut itself off from Europe. Fog over the Channel - Europe is cut off. Britain chose to stay outside the educational developments happening in Europe and other countries. It is only now that the accrued and aggregated results of the educational systems on the continent have been shown to affect economic product, through a workforce produced by those systems. In the modern technological and scientific age those skills are needed. Gone are the days when you can be a history graduate and teach for 40 years. Society is not made that way.
1463.
We need to introduce the types of broad-based education experiences for our children, whether it is in Irish-medium immersion systems, integrated schools or the Steiner-type curriculum. We need to look at the whole picture.
1464.
Mr Ó hÍr: Briefly and non-ideologically, our greatest resource is a well-educated group of young people. That will be a major factor in economic advances. Young people respond to being empowered and enabled. That is the way to achieve a well-educated workforce. That system of education, both in Irish-medium and in general empowers young people and makes them believe that they can succeed. That will result in the economic resources and welfare that we want and is the basis of any economic advance. Added to that we need investment, but the priority is a well educated, motivated young workforce coming on-stream.
1465.
Ms Ruane: As someone who grew up in the west of Ireland, I had cousins in the North and I remember looking in horror at my cousins when I heard of the 11-plus. In relation to O and A levels, they seemed to specialise very early, but we did not know the terminology. The 11-plus was something that loomed on their horizon.
1466.
It had a huge impact on us as children and we were not even doing it. It must have had, and has been shown to have, a much greater influence on those people who were doing it. In our town everyone went to the same school after primary school. We naturally moved with our class. My cousin's family in the North were split up, one went to school in one town and the other went to another town because one passed and one did not.
1467.
If you have grown up with that system you can sometimes become immune or grow accustomed to it, but it is a shocking system for our young people. We have to be really careful, as Mr Ó hÍr has said, about empowering. We need to tell all our children that they are equal. We need to build a system that does not differentiate. During my education seven subjects were studied until the age of 17 or 18. Those subjects included languages, social sciences, sciences, maths, geography and history. We were probably not as specialised in three subjects, but if you ask people at 15, 16 or 17 want they want to do they do not know. However, in the system in the North people are deciding at a very young age whether they will go down a route that will change the whole course of their lives. Those extra few years can make a huge difference. They may decide that it might not be languages they want to study, but science or sociology instead. Huge benefits can be derived from not specialising too early.
1468.
Mr Ó hÍr: I went to university in the South and because I had taken A levels here I assumed, given the broad curriculum they followed in the South, that I would be going there and be way ahead in chemistry and physics. I discovered in the first year of university that I was not. The breadth of the curriculum did not mean that students were behind. It seems to work.
1469.
Mr K Robinson: I am interested in your comment about not knowing what you want to do until later in life. I once wanted to be a policeman but I came home on the bus one night when it was raining. I saw a traffic policeman with water running down his arms and I became a teacher instead - I am not sure if that was a wise choice.
1470.
The Chairperson: I wondered where you were going with that. You can always blame the weather.
1471.
Mr K Robinson: Mr MacMuiris you were talking about young people and the 11-plus, particularly in the north and west of the city and you suggested that the 11-plus was the cause of all the failure there. I spent 22 of my 32 years as a teacher in the north or west of the city. I taught across a range of schools from the lower end of the Shankill Road right up to the leafy suburbs in Cavehill. I would like to think that during that time both my colleagues and I took up the points mentioned at the bottom of the table - to encourage, enable and empower children.
1472.
I do not see the 11-plus as the destructive model that you have painted it as. There is no doubt that it has not been helpful to children in some instances. That has happened for a variety of reasons, sadly some of which are parental influences. In other ways it was the key to the door that allowed children to move from those areas into whatever area of secondary education, and, I hope to move on to other levels.
1473.
As I listened to you I was smiling to myself. Two people who have figured in my life - one of them a former pupil, the other my best man - are on the airwaves on a regular basis. They went down two very different tracks yet they are probably in the same studio on a certain morning of the week. We talk about "failure"; it has become as emotive as "comprehensive".
1474.
Children do not suddenly fail at 11 years of age. Many factors add to the inability to expand on those talents that they undoubtedly have, wherever they may lie. I would not lay it all at the feet of the 11-plus or the education system. Look at north and west Belfast. Think of the talent that was lost in the Falls Road and the Shankhill Road through civil disturbances. Look at those families who left - I have said that to some of my Colleagues from other parties - and think of what drove them out of those areas. They looked for a better life, went to better schools and took that talent with them.
1475.
All of those areas are the poorer for not having that talent today. They took it to the outer fringes of the city, or to the estates in Carrickfergus and Antrim, and also to Mr Hamilton's area in the south-east of the city. There are many complicating factors.
1476.
Looking at education in its broadest terms and taking in all the aspects that you brought in, will that not prove to be a tremendous strain on the Irish-medium system? If you are trying to reach out to all those areas in the manner that you have outlined, are you not biting off more than you can chew? Are you not placing children at a disadvantage, rather than giving them an advantage and the different quality that you seek to bring?
1477.
Mr MacMuiris: I think that Mr Ó hÍr, as principal of Meánscoil Feirste, has shown that the system works. As wide a range as possible is offered, to as many children as possible, for as long as possible. That has the productive result in that it achieves success.
1478.
Mr K Robinson: When students leave education and go out into the wider world, what sort of qualification are they able to present to potential employers? You mentioned earning opportunities. That is the key to everything. What can they, coming through your system, offer to a potential employer by way of a recognised qualification that makes them not just a reasonable potential employee, but a very good one?
1479.
Mr Ó hÍr: That is an interesting question. They can offer the ordinary qualifications that any other student can offer - GCSEs and GCEs. My experience has shown that the students coming through the system - and I cannot explain how it happens - have a confidence and social skills that seem to be more advanced than others.
1480.
It is an ephemeral thing to say, but we are part of the education system, and I have educators coming in from all walks of life. For example, most recently we have had people helping students to fill in their Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) forms. People from both boards have helped. A series of people have all commented on the je ne sais quoi that the students have.
1481.
We could have a long discussion on that and I have views on why it happens. However, we have achieved that. In any school there is the cut and thrust of teacher/ student relationships - for example, unsatisfactory homework or lateness. However, when you have something that brings everyone together, those relationships improve and everyone wants to do things better.
1482.
In our context, the Irish language unites. It is a major contributor to that extra something, and you are all invited to see that je ne sais quoi for yourselves.
1483.
The Chairperson: Unfortunately, we have to close there. Thank you very much for your presentation and also for your patience.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr R Calvin )
Ms A Hall-Callaghan ) Ulster Teachers' Union
Mrs R Barton )
Miss G Garrett )
1484.
The Chairperson: We are pleased to welcome representatives from the Ulster Teachers' Union (UTU). The matter under consideration is the review of post-primary education. I apologise for the lengthy delay that you endured today. Other issues and matters have been on the mind of the Education Committee. We look forward to your presentation and for the opportunity for members to ask questions.
1485.
Mr Calvin: The Ulster Teachers' Union (UTU) welcomes the debate on the selective system of secondary education in Northern Ireland. It has expressed its opposition to selection at 11-plus at successive conferences for over 50 years and it passed the attached resolution at its conference in 2000.
1486.
The UTU believes that the existing transfer arrangements divide the education community at secondary level. They deny pupils the quality of educational opportunity and fail to serve the best interests of society.
1487.
Following the publication of the report on 'The Effects of the Selective System of Secondary Education in Northern Ireland' by Gallagher and Smith in September 2000, the UTU formulated two papers that offered its members views on 'The Effects of the Selective System of Secondary Education in Northern Ireland' and 'The Review of Post-Primary Education'. Both papers were finalised in January 2001. The union included, in the second of the papers, its views on examinations and qualifications, its preferred alternative structures and its view on the purpose of education. Mr Chairman, I commend those documents to you.
1488.
I suggest that the Committee should define the purpose of education before it engages in the mammoth task of seeking alternatives to the present selection system in Northern Ireland. The education service in Northern Ireland is being challenged to fulfil its role of effecting and making changes in our society. It is the UTU's contention that a radical realignment of attitudes and values in society is needed. Education has a vital role to play in bringing about that change.
1489.
I understand that the review body on post- primary education will travel to several countries to observe other education systems at work. The UTU hopes that it will look at each society and endeavour to discover whether that society holds its education service in high esteem; does it, for example, value the resource that it has in education; are the citizens of that society lifelong learners?
1490.
The UTU believes that the current arrangements to transfer pupils from primary to secondary education is educationally unsound, inaccurate, unfair and socially biased. We believe that the entire selection procedure is a denial of the aim to promote self-confidence and encouragement in children, in that it classifies the majority of them as failures.
1491.
We present to you two short reports. I draw your attention to the heading at the bottom of the first page of the first report, 'The Effects of the Selective System of Secondary Education In Northern Ireland', which reads "The Impact of Selection and Open Enrolment on Pupils".
1492.
I draw your attention to the comment made under the heading "Impact of Selection and Open Enrolment on all Post-Primary Schools" at the top of the following page, and just below that, our comment on "The Impact of Selection on Primary Schools". We would like you to take those in particular into account.
1493.
We move on to the second paper, 'The Ulster Teachers' Union Response to the Review of Post-Primary Education' where you will find on page two our comment on the "Transition to Post-Primary School", "Examinations and Qualifications" and "Alternative Structures and Systems". Those are worth highlighting. Finally, I want to quote from "The Purpose of the Education System", which is on the final page of the document.
"1. The Union believes that equality of subjects, equality of opportunities and equality of schools would enable all pupils to maximise their potential.
2. The Union believes that this review of Post-Primary Education should examine the following objectives. The education system should ensure that the young people it educates will be highly motivated, well educated, well trained and adaptable. Any improvement is subject to adequate resourcing being made available. As a union, we believe that this Education Review should support the provision of a set of pathways through which all individuals can fulfil their potential and gain the knowledge, the skills and the competence to perform effectively in the workplace. The objectives should include ways to strengthen, consolidate and improve the encouragement of worthwhile attainment and the maintenance of high quality and flexibility in the curriculum."
1494.
That is where we stand. I do not know if any members of the Committee would want to ask questions at this point on any part of our submission. We kept it fairly short because we felt that given that the document is twenty or thirty pages long, it would take upwards of three-quarters of an hour, and that would not be particularly productive for question and answers.
1495.
We feel that our education system needs to be changed, but that it can only change within the parameters of what is possible in practice.
1496.
The Chairperson: Are you in any way compromised by your membership as regards the response that you would have to make? Are there major changes that would have consequences for sections of that membership or large parts of it? Do you draw your membership from grammar schools as well as secondary schools? If that is the case, will you not be slightly compromised in meeting and addressing all of their concerns and needs?
1497.
Mr Calvin: There are several things I could say in answer to that question. We do not feel compromised, because we have taken into account the views of our members. We have asked them to state their views. We have had unanimous decisions at our conference in relation to our resolutions over the past thirty years. That happens every year. Therefore, I do not feel compromised in that sense.
1498.
There are many more teachers from secondary schools working in the grammar schools today. That resulted from the change in the common curriculum.
1499.
The influence of teachers who have gone into the grammar schools has been considerable. I have not heard any vociferous comments against the UTU policy. On three or four occasions I have heard minor comments on our policy on selection. We are against the selection of the 11-plus.
1500.
The line that we take on the provision of secondary education would probably cause less heat than other approaches. We favour the Dickson plan - as it was introduced, not as it is now. There may be a need to fashion the Dickson plan on the German model. The German model puts a greater emphasis on the technical senior high school.
1501.
Mr K Robinson: I am a former Ulster Teachers' Union member. The UTU was mostly for the primary sector at that time. Is that still the case or have you moved into the secondary sector?
1502.
Ms Hall-Callaghan: Most of our members come from the primary sector although I could not provide statistics off the top of my head. However, we do have a substantial secondary membership. We have fewer members from the grammar sector than from secondary schools.
1503.
Mr K Robinson: How would you define the purpose of education? You have stated that you want us to define it so I would like to pick your brains. You said that if you got rid of the 11-plus primary schools would have the millstones removed from around their necks, and that that is long overdue. What would you like primary schools to do at that stage in education if they have been released from that responsibility? If they were not constrained by the 11-plus at the upper end of Key Stage 2 what would the primary schools be able to do that they are not able to do at present?
1504.
Ms Garrett: At the moment we are working towards the end of Key Stage 2 assessment. That has been satisfactory. I have just put a set of pupils through the assessment and the 11-plus. Doing the end of Key Stage 2 at this time of the year, we have found that if all of the children had sat the 11-plus most of them would have had problems passing the exam. Six months makes a lot of difference.
1505.
We have been teaching towards the end of Key Stage 2, but the preparation for the 11-plus was rushed and parents and pupils were expecting it and had to gear themselves up for it. The children were taught the material for the 11-plus but it was forgotten soon after they had taken the exam. The primary seven year is spent going over all of the work again and investigating and exploring the fun side of learning for the end of the Key Stage.
1506.
Mr K Robinson: That is the nice part of the year. Do you see parents as part of the problem?
1507.
Ms Garrett: Yes. The problem is how society views the selection system. Parents think that their children's education should be geared towards the 11-plus. We are set against that but teachers and principals are under pressure to work in that way.
1508.
Mr K Robinson: We are setting up a general teachers' council to show the world that teachers are professionals. If you are professionals and you feel that the system is wrong, should you not stand up against it? You should not allow parents to dictate the pace and direction of education.
1509.
Ms Garrett: You have to have uniformity across all primary schools. Some teachers would say that they do not teach towards the 11-plus, but it does affect them. If there is a movement of pupils between schools the children do not have an equal chance. If the schools do not prepare the pupils for the 11-plus then the parents will find another way such as tutoring their children themselves.
1510.
Mr K Robinson: You are suggesting that parents are very inventive people. No matter what sort of system we concoct here and in other places, parents will always outwit us.
1511.
Ms Garrett: No. It is about re-educating those re-edparents. They have come through the system. It is aboutucating them and society as a whole, as to how they view the process of 11-plus.
1512.
Mr K Robinson: That brings me back to my other question. We can define the purpose of education. If we educate the parents, we can educate the child after that.
1513.
Mr McElduff: How can equal recognition be given to academic and vocational qualifications? How can that be achieved?
1514.
Mr Calvin: I sit on a body called the Northern Ireland Growth Challenge, which has various satellites. Some of them are more important and some are less important than the Growth Challenge itself, in my view. However, that body is an interaction between the worlds of commerce, industry and education, as well as bits and pieces of other worlds. Industrialists need more young people who are able to go into industry or commerce and function well, not only at the intellectual level, but also at the engineering and production level. We need a greater emphasis on the real value to society of someone from an "engineering" background, as opposed to a "classics" background.
1515.
We could delay the selection to either 14 or 15 years of age, when children are in a better position to make decisions for themselves. Moreover, we need to accommodate as far as possible the wishes and needs of those children - and to some extent the wishes of their parents - as they transfer to technical or academic senior high schools. That was the vision of the Dickson plan. For all sorts of reasons, it did not work out exactly that way. Part of the reason was that parents resisted. Parents are - we all are - conservative about their children and the places where they are looked after, whether it is school, university or youth club. They resisted by removing children from the Dickson plan area and moving them into another area where he or she could be taught in a grammar school from age 11. They bused or drove them there. That affected the Dickson plan.
1516.
The other thing that affected the Dickson plan was that the technical senior high school did not work quite as envisaged. Unfortunately, other initiatives came on line and changed the role of the FE colleges, which became institutes of education. It is a bit like the change in approach by secondary schools since the introduction of the new curriculum. They have competed with the grammar schools, rather than fulfilling their original role of complementing the work done by grammar schools. The technical schools ended up competing perhaps with universities, rather than complementing the universities and making other kinds of provision.
1517.
Mr McElduff: In two presentations in the same afternoon, we have had one delegation for selection - at age 14 or 15 and another delegation opposed to that, quoting consultant psychiatrists about compounding preoccupations and anxieties at age 14.
1518.
Mr Calvin: I would agree entirely with those views. In an ideal world, there would be a straight comprehensive and fully integrated system. There is no question about that. The first thing that we must do in Northern Ireland is get rid of the apartheid between Catholics and Protestants. The second thing is to get rid of the other apartheid, which is the academic one. The reality of life is that we do not have the resources or the funding to be able to do either of those things immediately. In our documentation, we take account of all of that. We spent a long time on it. We concluded that that notion - whether it is as per the Dickson Plan or with selection delayed to sixth form - may be realisable with existing resources. The buildings are there and can be used. The ideal arrangement is to have a primary school and a secondary school, perhaps taking students right through until they have reached the equivalent of completing FE courses on the same campus. Special education could also be provided on the site. That situation would be ideal, but it will not happen in Northern Ireland except with a massive injection of funding.
1519.
I have friends teaching in the United States, who tell me about the integrated provision for children whose special needs are met in the normal school environment. They have a second-level school that is truly comprehensive taking pupils all the way through. We must remember the resources that they have. Our submission is based on what we think is practicable, given the relatively limited resources available here.
1520.
You will be aware that Mr Frank Bunting and I met the Committee previously and presented a joint UTU/INTO document. We still stand by what is in that document, which is basically a synopsis of what is in this document except that it is more oriented towards a straight through comprehensive arrangement.
1521.
Mr McHugh: You spoke about trying to get rid of the two apartheids - we have to wonder whether there is the political will. Your submission has good points, and you are coming at the issue sensibly.
1522.
We met representatives of the German system and discussed options for moving away from selection. They were opposed to the type of selection that we have, but they have their own form. They were arrogant about their results at the highest academic level and felt that they could meet economic requirements by having pupils in a particular school heading towards leadership positions. They argued that their system was capable of meeting the needs of industry. There is a big difference between the populations of there and here. How can we deliver better locally? Industry now requires people to be flexible and to be able to leave this part of Ireland altogether and work elsewhere - down South or wherever the work is. We should not just hope that there is enough work here to keep people employed all the time.
1523.
Mr Calvin: I hear constantly from principal teachers and from industry and commerce organisations about the real need to satisfy the requirements of the productive part of the economy, not the service industries. I am a trade union official, and I have certain views about society and economics and so forth, but I have to say that there is a gap in the economy that we have not filled. In Northern Ireland we have, perhaps, failed in that respect more obviously than other parts of the United Kingdom.
1524.
In an ideal world, there would be a straight- through comprehensive system that is fully integrated and provides full equality, regardless of pupils' religion. What can be achieved in the meantime? We talk about the likes of the Dickson plan or amending the system along the lines of the German model, and we also look to Scotland. Each time that I am in Scotland, I am impressed by what I see in the education system there. I am aware of the criticisms that Tony Gallagher made of the Scottish system in his report and, notwithstanding that, I still view that system favourably. The Welsh education system is a halfway house, and I do not like the English system, where there is a lot of real apartheid. We can do better than that in Northern Ireland.
1525.
When I started 30 years ago - and for a good number of years since that - I was convinced that the Scottish system was better. I was told constantly that we needed to look to Scotland to see the quality and service that teachers provided. That no longer applies. Scottish teachers are better qualified and better selected than their English colleagues, but we have managed to at least get level with them, if not overtaken them. I have made that point before. Department of Education statistics released about a year and a half ago show that the average A-level score of entrants to teacher training is 21 to 22 points in Northern Ireland, whereas in England and Wales, the score is between 13 and 14. That is because of unemployment, the relative value of education in any society and other criteria. It does not matter what those criteria are; we end up with better qualified people going into teacher training. Someone asked me whether that carries right through to the end of the training. I do not know what to say about that, but I suspect that if we have better value at the start, there must be better value at the end. That has been the one big factor that has taken us to the level of the Scottish teachers and perhaps beyond it.
1526.
Mr McHugh: Ms Garrett said that many pupils would pass the 11-plus if they were doing it now, rather than six months ago. Is that more pupils than actually sat the test?
1527.
Ms Garrett: I have been teaching P7 for some years and have worked in a variety of schools, with pupils from different backgrounds. My present class has a nice mixed background, and a third of the class passed the test. I have now managed to get two thirds to a level which, if they had been at that level in November, they would have passed the 11-plus. It is hard to tell children given a D in their 11-plus that they have failed. Those two thirds of children have the same attainment as the third in the same class who are going to grammar school. That is devastating for them.
1528.
Mr McHugh: That is an amazing point.
1529.
Mr K Robinson: You mentioned the Scottish and German models and the term vocational education came up again and again. We have asked several of the different groups appearing before the Committee to define what they mean by "vocational". That is an interesting exercise for 5 o'clock on a Thursday afternoon.
1530.
Ms Barton: I work in the secondary sector. I see vocational education as an educational route for children who are less academically gifted. They can follow training courses that they find more relevant to their view of the outside world.
1531.
Mr K Robinson: That is a slightly traditional view of the word "vocational". Given what Mr Calvin has said and what we have heard from other sources. Industry today needs people to have a vocation that lifts them beyond that. How would our system do that?
1532.
Ms Barton: On the vocational route, there are other qualifications available. There are key skills, which provide an academic aspect.
1533.
Mr K Robinson: We are told that the "Celtic tiger" economy in the South stutters a wee bit because it is running out of technical skills. It has got the graduate, academic level but the next level down is missing. I think you have already highlighted that problem. That suggests a vocational skills deficit.
1534.
Ms Barton: Within the ICT field, there is a skills deficit. Many practically oriented courses should be declared to be as valuable as a traditional academic course. Northern Ireland has to be educated about that, so that we can move from the traditional view.
1535.
Mr K Robinson: Is there sufficient interest to bring the vocational sector to the point at which it is seen to be equal?
1536.
Ms Barton: Yes.
1537.
Mr Calvin: One of the big difficulties is that we have divided the situation that way. If you talk to an engineer, he does not consider himself any less an intellectual than a lawyer. In fact, if I can think back to my youth, in the main street in Bushmills there was a guy who was a very good mechanic. In many ways, he probably had more responsibility for life than the local doctor had. He had to be precise and careful - if he was not, someone could die.
1538.
The Chairperson: I have a friend who says that education has the country wrecked.
1539.
Mr Calvin: We would do well in Northern Ireland to remember the importance of all jobs. The chief executive of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools spoke this morning about that, about our attitude. We are inclined to talk about our sons and daughters who are doctors and lawyers. We might not refer to the guy who is the town planner or the engineer, and we might not regard them in the same light. The guy who is the brickie may not be mentioned at all. Yet the brickie who turned my bungalow into a two-storey house arrived in a car that I could not afford to drive. Every morning, he arrived wearing a suit. He was the number one brickie in Northern Ireland - he had won the prize, and he behaved like that.
1540.
The Chairperson: Could you still afford to pay him?
1541.
Mr Calvin: When I was at grammar school - a tiny grammar school - my mother would not have recognised the notion of my becoming a brickie. I suspect I might have been far better as a brickie than as what I am now.
1542.
The Chairperson: We will not draw any comment from anyone on that.
1543.
Mr McElduff: The Chairman said that education has the country wrecked.
1544.
The Chairperson: I said that my friend said that education had the country wrecked.
1545.
Mr McElduff: I have a similar friend. He said there was no word of education before the 'The Late Late Show', and that "edumacation" is easy carried. We have similar friends.
1546.
The Chairperson: On a practical level, as far as the Dickson plan, or that type of system, is concerned, one of the practical outworkings would be that your starting age for education is at five, bringing children through to 13-14 years of age. Is that sensible? Are there good grounds for having a five-year old at the same school as a 14-year old?
1547.
Ms Hall-Callaghan: We are not necessarily suggesting that. Under the Dickson plan, children transfer at 11 to what would have been secondary school. They go to senior high school or take the technical route at age 14. One of the prime considerations would have to be that the schools should all go down the same path because if, as in the Dickson plan, there are grammar schools somewhere else, that distorts the whole picture. It would have to be clearly seen that those were the only types of school.
1548.
The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation and for the question and answer session. It has been very valuable.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 29 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gallagher
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Canon Houston McKelvey ) Transferor
Representatives' Council
(TRC)
Mr G Orr )
Rev Lee Glenny )
Rev Jim McAllistair )
1549.
The Chairperson: We are pleased to welcome members of the Transferor Representatives' Council (TRC), who will give evidence on the review of post- primary education. The Rev Derek Poots has apologised for his absence and he is replaced by the Rev Jim McAllistair. You can now make a short presentation, which will be followed by questions.
1550.
Canon McKelvey: Mr Chairman, we would like to formally place on record our admiration of your role and the role of the Committee members. At this time in the history of education in Northern Ireland, your contribution is vital. This is the first time that we have met you since the death of your esteemed member, Mr Tom Benson, and we pass on our condolences.
1551.
What we have here is yesterday's cold meat warmed up. The paper you have is a copy of the view foils of our presentation to the review body. We thought we should share that information with your members. We apologise that you did not receive it sooner. It may contain too much information for the present time frame.
1552.
We identified a major gap in the research. Children, parents and teachers were consulted, but there was no consultation whatsoever with people who serve on boards of governors. We represent a two-level constituency.
1553.
We will share insights that we obtained from a questionnaire to which 700 transferor representatives responded. We will give you what we hope is the distilled wisdom of three Church boards.
1554.
We also represent an elected constituency. The three Church boards represented here are elected by the membership of their Churches and are accountable to annual juridical meetings of those Churches. We probably represent the largest elected voluntary organisation you will encounter in this debate on post-primary education.
1555.
There are genuine fears in the community that in this review political dogma rather than educational criteria will determine the future. We are concerned about Christian values and we believe that cross-community confidence in whatever is proposed is absolutely essential.
1556.
We were reassured yesterday by the chairman of the review body that any change would be incremental, not revolutionary. We want to avoid the creation of an independent post-primary sector. Grammar schools should not be made scapegoats - they did not invent selection at 11-plus.
1557.
There is a fear that good aspects of the present system will be lost. The identification of what is good - good practitioners and good schools of all types in all sectors - needs to be upheld. There are failures in the Northern Irish education system, but it is generally a success.
1558.
There are dedicated teachers whose academic levels on entry to St Mary's University College and Stranmillis University College are 11 points higher than some colleges in Britain. Therefore, we must respect our teachers.
1559.
We have a concern about the curriculum which Mr Orr will expand on because that is his field of experience in the primary sector. We want to see the primary sector sorted out because there is no point in reviewing the secondary sector if you do not eradicate the upward transference of underachievement. Likewise, we want to see curriculum change preceding any change in the secondary system. Schools are merely the vehicles, and it is the curriculum that is important. We need a period of quiet and calm. We are very keen on CCEA's new Key Stage 4 proposals. Key Stage 3 should have a smaller core - English, Mathematics, and perhaps IT, which we see as the new commonality between all types of schools. No matter what people do in the future, they will need those skills. We would like to see that common base.
1560.
We envisage a secondary system with a variety of schools, and ease of transfer between those schools. Post-11, we want a more forgiving system. We pleaded with the review body yesterday to give us more information on what it envisaged as an academic school, a technological or vocational school, or even a performing arts school - if we could afford one in Belfast. Genuine parity of esteem for all schools is one of our cardinal values. Each type of school must have adequate funding and staff, and an open and accountable funding procedure.
1561.
We want to see community ownership of our schools, with ownership coming from the grassroots up rather than being imposed from the top down. I do not have to tell this representative Committee about the rural/urban balance, or the political and religious divergence in Northern Ireland. One size will not fit all. Local school provision should reflect local needs, and the closer to the community that decisions are taken the better. Our major recommendation in this area is for local community education audits. The Department of Education should be tasked to draw up an agreed, informative and facilitated process. The education and library boards, in their current format, are best suited to provide that facilitation, but their brief must be strictly spelt out. We are not making a vested-interest case for education and library boards, rather for a community dialogue process. Elected local representatives must be involved - dealing with trustees, transferors, local employers and teachers - and it should have a strong cross-community element. We have travelled to Harrogate, and we have had visitors from Harrogate here, and looked at different ways of approaching integrated education, post-sixth form, where two schools are co-located and co-operating. We want to see more imagination.
1562.
As for selection: please discontinue the present system as soon as possible. Of our 700 respondents, 80% had no confidence in it, 60% regarded the present system as unfair, but 80% thought that selection was inevitable in an education system where there is a shortage of places in some schools and an overprovision of population. Our recommendation is that any movement should be two staged. There should be Key Stage 2 assessments and entrance tests, not only for grammar schools. Secondary schools in Belfast are oversubscribed - how do we deal fairly with that? By 2005 agreed forms of educational guidance should be introduced, perhaps based on revised methods of assessment. More so than any of our recommendations, we plead with you to take this on board.
1563.
There is a major need to change the mindset in this community from testing (success and failure) to educational guidance. Theologically and educationally, our base is that no child is a failure. Our view is that every child is made in the image of God, and God does not make failures. Society, families and systems may fail children, but no child is a failure. We have to find a proper form of educational guidance which will enable parents and children to realise their potential.
1564.
We have concerns about transfer at 14-plus and believe that the current research being conducted in Northern Ireland is too little, too patchy and at variance. We would like to see much more work being done in this area before it is presented as a panacea for the entire Province.
1565.
We perhaps take a broader view of education than other organisations in that we are well rooted in the communities in which we serve. We have parishes and congregations in areas of social need. We do not need documents to remind us of this.
1566.
One of the biggest problems in Northern Ireland is that many parents do not accept their parental responsibilities. Parents and families are the prime nurturers of children and adequate community resources should be made available to help people develop parental and family skills. Teachers cannot be expected to pick up every problem in society. Our teachers are overburdened; at times they barely have time to teach the three Rs because so many school policies are being thrown at them. We have to be realistic about that.
1567.
We represent three Protestant Churches; we represent part of this community. There is a huge need for a restoration of confidence. Too high a percentage of respondents to our survey - close to 80% - felt that controlled schools were not esteemed equally with other schools. There are misconceptions. My colleagues in the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) could close a school just as quickly as my colleagues in the education and library boards.
1568.
However, the perception of people from our constituency who help manage our schools is that there is a lack of sensitivity and a greater need to encourage a sense of ownership of those schools. The implications of the Belfast Agreement on this issue need to be explored positively from the point of view of the Protestant community.
1569.
The Rev Jim McAllistair's advice to us throughout has been to concentrate our analysis not only on where we have been but on where we are trying to go as a community. We have pleaded with the review body to avoid overlap, and we hope to have an alliance with the Committee on this. Let us tackle one major change at a time - not two - and let us have a vision of education that comes from the community upwards and is owned by the community rather than having dictatorial top-down policies, which do not work. Ultimately, if one is forced to have an opinion, it is not a valid opinion. I would ask you to fully recognise the role and contribution of governors of all types in the management of change in schools.
1570.
That is more or less what I said to the review body yesterday, and this is probably a good kicking-off point for members to address us and put their questions.
1571.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much for your concise presentation. I now invite members of the Committee to put questions.
1572.
Mrs E Bell: Thank you for your very clear indications of what you would like - I agree with much of what you have said. Could you expand a little, for example, on the local community audits that you mentioned? You said there would be a limited number in the post-primary sector that would pick up on that. Would schools be invited to come forward and then a certain number would be chosen? What would the process be?
1573.
Canon McKelvey: That is perhaps one of the most important aspects of the debate: what are the ground rules? First, my colleagues and I felt that the types of school described in the documentation provided by the Department were totally inadequate for any valid judgement. The Committee and the review body have been looking spot-on at different schools. It is particularly difficult for parents. If you were a parent, you could not make a decision on the basis of the information provided in the documentation.
1574.
When the Committee and the review body have done their work we would like options to be presented to the Northern Ireland community. Schools could be academic (I do not want to use the unhelpful word "grammar") or concentrate on technology. As already happens in one or two schools, schemes could be run under one roof. But we do not support a universal comprehensive system for Northern Ireland. However, where you have the luxury of a couple of existing secondary schools and a grammar school, the community could be given the option to dialogue at local level about the complementary roles of those three schools, which could possibly bridge the religious divide also.
1575.
We are not experts on finance, so that is perhaps the weakest part of our submission. It is expensive to equip schools for technology and to take that through to General National Vocational Qualification (GNVQ) level. We have a falling population in our schools and we will have a limited budget no matter how well the Committee does its job. We must oversee how that money is spent at a local level, but we must also give people choice.
1576.
In any one community in Northern Ireland there may be a need for a certain type of vocational training, dictated by the types of job that are on offer in that area. There must be a local community forum, an amalgam of councillors, business people, Churches, parents and teachers.
1577.
Mr McHugh: You mentioned that parents need to take more responsibility - can you expand on that? Your last point addressed vocational education being tailored to the needs of a specific area. However, we need to have an outward-looking, flexible workforce, perhaps working outside the North. Can you comment on that?
1578.
Mr Orr: Parents are the primary educators. It is comecrucial that a child gets a good start in life. Many children to nursery schools or primary schools and they are already deprived. Many come with low-level language skills, hardly able to communicate. Nursery school teachers often help to generate the development of language. Schools can help but they cannot overcome that original inadequacy.
1579.
We want parents to take their responsibilities seriously but many are not in a position to know how to do that. We want a programme for parental education, to help parents if they so wish it. Many parents, despite training, opt out. On the other hand, many parents are keen to help their children.
1580.
Many parents set their children down in front of a television, which can be valuable. However, it is not nearly as valuable as sitting down with a storybook, reading it to the children and talking them through the story. In simple things like that we can encourage parents. However, it is an area that we have tended to overlook and underestimate, but it ties in with the points we have made about early primary education.
1581.
If children are failing in primary school, a secondary school - no matter what type - has to pick up those failures. It is a difficult job to turn that around. We must promote parental education and offer parents those skills. We are not suggesting that parents do the work of schools, but we feel equally that schools should not have to do the work of parents. A partnership would be effective.
1582.
Rev Jim McAllistair: Last week, the Department sent out an initiative for parents. Forty-one Belfast schools received money for training parents. I received a copy of the initiative last Monday morning since I am at the coalface inasmuch as I am on several boards of governors and I am chairman of one of them.
1583.
We did not touch on the financial aspects, but our organisation includes many people who are knowledgeable about finance.
1584.
Canon McKelvey: We are keen to see initiatives such as homework clubs. In areas such as Sandy Row children did not pass the 11-plus until Churches, parents and schools worked together. The 11-plus is not everybody's index of success - but that alliance worked.
1585.
Following on from Mr McHugh's question, the Northern Ireland education system must be capable of educating young people so that they can take up positions from Boston to Brisbane. Unfortunately, too many of them have already done so. Many of the country's leadership qualities have also migrated. That is not to underestimate those who have remained.
1586.
The Chairperson: That is very careful phrasing.
1587.
Canon McKelvey: If I were a Jesuit, you would say that it was casuistry - the Church of Ireland studies it also. Northern Ireland's major natural resource is its people. We have no bauxite, tin mines or anything like that here.
1588.
Mrs E Bell: We might have gold, according to the news this morning.
1589.
Canon McKelvey: If that is so, why are you all sitting here?
1590.
Mr McHugh's point is valid. If we are to look at this issue constructively - and the CBI and the Institute of Directors would be advocating school/business links - then something in the dialogue suggests that we will almost have to reinvent the wheel. We have benefited from the experience of chairmen of boards of governors who were formerly senior inspectors. Most of my teaching was done in further education and I grew up in a linen village. Two or three of the major cranes that dominate the Belfast skyline belong to Cedric Blackburn, who rose through the apprenticeship system and through a local college. I look at chaps who have completed their apprenticeships. I look at those I taught at Lisburn Technical College as well as those I taught at the Royal Belfast Academical Institution. We must esteem such people.
1591.
Whether it be GNVQs and HNVQs, we must find a system whereby children - regardless of the type of post-primary school they attend - have a channel through to third-level education. The esteem in which employers hold universities is a problem. Mr Orr made the point about primary schools, but there is an issue about how people reach the top of the education process.
1592.
Mrs E Bell: A number of primary schools in Belfast - and, I hope, in North Down - as well as having homework clubs are now keeping their schools open to 10.00 pm so that parents can avail of training.
1593.
Mr Hamilton: You have already touched briefly on the matter I intended to raise. In your submission you mentioned schools specialising in either academic or vocational education. How would you achieve parity between those schools, in that parents, pupils and employers may continue to look on one as being inferior to the other?
1594.
Canon McKelvey: This is the challenge to the community mindset. It is a challenge to people like us - to you as politicians, to us as religious communities and to people in the media. I happen to think that you can abolish selection tomorrow. You can play around with different types of secondary school but it is the mindset that matters.
1595.
We do not want controlled schools to have corporeality in Northern Ireland. We have five boards but we do not have a unified "grand champion". Many interesting things are happening in controlled schools but they do not receive as much publicity as integrated schools or other agencies.
1596.
There are success stories in Northern Ireland. For too long Northern Ireland has been accustomed to bad news, but educationally, Northern Ireland should be good news.
1597.
Companies advertise for people with a background in certain areas and those people move. But the Rev Jim McAllistair has experience of prospective employers coming to secondary schools looking for qualified folk, as opposed to looking elsewhere.
1598.
Rev Jim McAllistair: We can look at the current scene. I know Belfast best, but I am not a Belfast man. Where I come from you learnt English as a second language.
1599.
I know Belfast best but I also know Antrim and Ballymena quite well. The best IT teaching, learning and equipment is found in the secondary schools (as we now call them), not in the grammar schools. Many people from industry and other sectors say they want people who have first-rate IT skills.
1600.
I have a difficulty with that, because it seems to me that we could be providing another social place. One hundred years ago, employers went to the elementary schools to find people for the factories. People might return to that level to look for their "workers". Several schools for which I am on the board of governors have straight links with companies such as Shorts and BT. These firms come to us because they think that that is where they will get people with the best IT skills, which is good in one respect but bad in another. Esteem must be viewed in several ways.
1601.
Mr Gallagher: Thank you for your clear submission and your equally clear oral presentation. I want to go back to the issue of community confidence. You mentioned the example of authorities such as the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE) and the fact that you are split across five boards. To take that in conjunction with your reference to the lack of confidence in the present system of educational administration - I think your survey said that there was 80% dissatisfaction -
1602.
Canon McKelvey: Sorry, I misquoted. It is 70%.
1603.
Mr Gallagher: All right, 70%, which is pretty high. Does that apply across primary and secondary sectors?
1604.
You make it clear that Northern Ireland should avoid the growth of an independent sector. You have also said that you are not looking for a counterpart such as NICIE or CCMS. Nevertheless, you probably have a higher percentage than any other sector of children in your schools from the other denomination. There is a serious lack of confidence in your community about the controlled sector. You said that the Good Friday Agreement has implications, and I take it from that that you mean that the Good Friday Agreement can help to redress that in some way. Can you tell us how you envisage the Good Friday Agreement doing that and whether any other mechanism could be helpful as well?
1605.
Canon McKelvey: I refer to our submission, which is quite extensive and would give you a couple of nights' reading. Those are the perceptions of our community. Seventy per cent of respondents agreed that controlled schools are at a disadvantage compared to maintained and integrated schools in that there is no Province-wide body such as CCMS or NICIE to present their needs in a holistic fashion. Seventy per cent agreed that there should be dedicated committees in education and library boards containing a majority of representatives from the controlled sector.
1606.
We are in a dilemma because we do not want any further splintering in an already well-splintered system. However, we do feel - as we said when we met before - that with an issue such as pre-school education, there is a need for a Province-wide policy and not a five-board policy. The Minister may be listening to us on this. We are not seeking a five-board-wide legislative body, but we feel that there should be some body that represents the controlled sector Province-wide. This is not about having a Protestant Church majority. When we look at the composition of a nine-strong board of governors, as well as four people from the transferors there are also local council representatives, and teacher and parent representatives. We would like to see that brought together. It would be a body which could monitor the overall impact of Government policy on the controlled sector and address its concerns to the Minister and this Committee.
1607.
You raised a second point, Mr Gallagher, on the Good Friday Agreement.
1608.
Mr Orr: Mr Gallagher raised a point initially about primary and secondary education. The concern is not about the schools, it is about the structures.
1609.
Canon McKelvey: The Good Friday Agreement aspect is related to parity of esteem. The community that we represent has been somewhat slow in challenging the Good Friday Agreement scenario. I get the impression - and I am speaking for myself now, not for the TRC - as I go through our communities that people think that somehow we lost. I personally do not regard it in that way but I think that a change of mindset is needed. Your Committee is made up of people from a variety of parties. Northern Ireland will start to operate properly when Protestants start to articulate Roman Catholics' concerns and when Nationalists start to articulate Unionist concerns.
1610.
The Chairperson: Mr McElduff?
1611.
Mr McElduff: I am not likely to take up that challenge so early.
1612.
Canon McKelvey: Oh go on!
1613.
The Chairperson: You were certainly given the first opportunity.
1614.
Mr McElduff: I will give it some thought. I have a couple of questions, which may be difficult to answer. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say that you have a genuine fear that political doctrine and dogma are driving this process?
1615.
Secondly, you appear to be opposed in principle to the all-ability post-primary-school arrangement which would reach across society universally. What is so inherently wrong with all-ability post-primary schools? Some people say that they offer the best chance of cherishing all our children equally.
1616.
Mr Orr: I think you are asking why the TRC does not support the comprehensive ideal. If we were starting with a clean sheet, there might be some merit in considering the comprehensive system. But we are not starting with a clean sheet. Evidence suggests that comprehensive education does not necessarily mean successful education. There are good comprehensive schools and there are poor comprehensive schools. Evidence suggests that comprehensive schools in rural areas tend to be more successful than those in urban areas because the schools in urban areas tend to ghettoise.
1617.
One reason we are concerned about comprehensive schools as a modus operandi is that they may ghettoise. How could there be parity of esteem between a Campbell or a Strathearn comprehensive school on the one hand and a St Luke's in Twinbrook comprehensive school on the other hand. There would be ghettoisation socially and politically. It would be almost impossible for that situation to give fairness across the board.
1618.
Canon McKelvey: In Northern Ireland it is also beneficial to get some children out of their home backgrounds and give them a distance to travel. I went to Belfast Inst and travelled 15 miles into Belfast from the country. I met people from all social backgrounds in that school. My life was greatly enriched by it. I have an abhorrence of what Mr Orr has just described - the so-called "postcode comprehensive". I have gone to good comprehensive schools in Northern Ireland. They do exist. I have also conducted a prize-giving ceremony at a comprehensive school that streamed its pupils. I met myself going out the gate. I never got a school prize in my life and I had great delight in telling that to the pupils. In that school the academic pupils were still inside but the secondary-stream youngsters had left for the afternoon.
1619.
"Comprehensive" on the notice board does not mean that there is a comprehensive system under the roof. The same applies to grammar schools. I want to know what is inside the wrapper.
1620.
I am sure that Mr McElduff has heard of Sir Brian Mawhinney. Northern Ireland has had political dogma before, which was imported from the Home Counties. It has taken Northern Ireland a considerable time to rid itself of some of this. That is a shorthand way of saying that where we sit and where you sit is not important, and neither are your party political manifestos important; the children and how they are treated is the important element.
1621.
Mr K Robinson: I am delighted to hear that Canon McKelvey went to the same school as Sir Brian Mawhinney. It was a rather unfortunate choice of establishment.
1622.
The community ownership issue intrigues me. You talked about rural/urban, religious/political and dense/sparse populations but you missed the social impact on education - although Mr Orr did mention it in his response. May I suggest that if you are conducting community audits, you should go back to local school provision which reflects local needs.
1623.
There are schools within 100 yards of one another where two groups of parents are driving in opposite directions. One can see the potential danger for ghettoisation there in the upper level. That ghettoisation can be seen transferring down to primary level and perhaps even to pre-school level, where local groups of parents are driving agendas for social reasons rather than educational reasons. How do we break out of that spiral?
1624.
It is coming across very clearly that to some degree you feel that the controlled sector is a third-class citizen in the educational field. I agree with you on that. From my experience I have always felt that the controlled sector was rather undervalued and that we did not have people to speak up on our behalf. That is reflected in the current structures at board level and that needs to be addressed. At present the disadvantage of our system is that it is somewhat splintered. How do we address the issue without further splintering the system? What is your definition of a vocational school? That word "vocational" is bandied around, and it means different things to different groups.
1625.
Canon McKelvey: We want to build bridges in this community, and I would like to pay positive tribute to the education and library boards for being the vehicles of bridge building. Perhaps one of the reasons you are here today is due to successful bridge building across the community between local politicians, trustees and education and library boards. Some representatives on education and library boards may disagree with us looking for a dedicated committee within an education and library board.
1626.
We will push the Minister on the Northern Ireland aspect because we believe in controlled schools. They have a history, they have made a contribution, and they are open to every child in the Province. We tried very hard not to increase the number of schools in an already overprovided society. We changed our stance to permit controlled integrated schools, even though our representation on that board has been cut in half. That is one of our grievances which needs to be addressed by the powers that be. However, we accept what you are saying about social divisiveness because there is a chalk-and-cheese attitude about some schools sharing the same campus. That has to be challenged. One of the positive things about grammar schools in Northern Ireland is that they have never been egalitarian in the way that they have been cross-channel. All the political parties in Northern Ireland are more egalitarian than they would care to admit. There is a great Presbyterianism about Northern Ireland.
1627.
With regard to Mr K Robinson's last point about the vocational sector, I see technologists as being the former millwrights of this world, the men who could work with wood and metal, the designers and the engineers. The old black crafts are coming through now. In 1999-2000, according to the Institute of Directors, 80% of the new jobs created in Northern Ireland were in high-tech industries. The IT industry must forge ahead but the old skills must also continue. There is a shortage of plumbers and electricians. Further education colleges have problems getting the funding to buy piping to allow a plumber to at least try three bends in a pipe. Those are the realities of today.
1628.
With regard to the vocational sector, further education colleges have pioneered that quite well. I regard playgroup leadership and nursing as vocational careers. But my colleagues and I believe that everyone has a vocation.
1629.
Mr K Robinson: I would like to come back to the primary level. I would like you to comment on the scenario of two schools sited close to one another but with different aspirations for their pupils. How do we cope with that socially divisive system?
1630.
Mr Orr: Could you please be more specific about what you are describing?
1631.
Mr K Robinson: You spoke about community ownership, a community audit. A community might decide that it wants its children to be educated in a particular way: they will go to a certain second-level school and a certain third-level institution. They will have a primrose path. Another school - perhaps 100 yards away - looks at its pupils and says "We want to keep the children out of the courts; we want to keep them off the streets. We do not really care if they go to school, but we would like a nice flower bed out the front." The aspirations are different and the two communities grow apart. Will we simply give them the wherewithal to grow further apart, or will we challenge that?
1632.
Mr Orr: No, certainly not. Our starting point was to look at the way in which secondary education is currently organised across the Province. There are areas, for example, where there is what could be termed "comprehensive education", places such as Cookstown, Fivemiletown and others. The system seems to satisfy the residents. They esteem it and value it. It would be quite wrong to impose something in a doctrinaire way from the centre which destroyed what people valued and supported. You will never get 100% support for anything. To allow people in those areas to have a say about the future education of their children is what we mean by a community audit. It can never be 100%, but I suspect that there would be strong support from people in those areas. We recognise the desirability of giving that kind of local involvement and ownership.
1633.
The Chairperson: The Rev Jim McAllistair wanted to make a point.
1634.
Mr K Robinson: He is probably going to say the same thing as I am. I am thinking about the early start programmes and so forth in north Belfast, where focused attention is being given to communities which up to now have either not valued education or have not valued the type of education they are being offered. You are beginning to turn that around but it is being done in a comprehensive manner rather than in a piecemeal way in different small communities.
1635.
Rev Jim McAllistair: There are people, for example, on the Malone Road - and I am not using the "Malone Road" in a disparaging way - who will send their children to the schools they want them to go to, whether or not the schools are located locally. Open enrolment must be looked at, not least because in many cases it takes people out of their communities. People from Kilkeel come to schools in Belfast. It is not good to have children educated so far away from their community. We were talking about the 11-plus and selection, but we have not come here to debate those particular points. However, everyone is in a position to do something about the social divide that is established at school level and is mostly created by parents.
1636.
The Chairperson: Unfortunately, the clock has beaten us. I am tempted to say "Here endeth the lesson" - but in very reverent tones. Thank you very much for your presentation. We have enjoyed the exchange of views and perhaps we may have an opportunity to share our views again.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 29 March 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gallagher
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Witnesses:
Mr S McCrea ) Association of Headteachers
Mr G McKimm) in Secondary Schools
Mr S Rafferty )
Mr A Browne )
1637.
The Chairperson: Good afternoon, and welcome to the second presentation on the review of post-primary education in Northern Ireland. On behalf of the Education Committee I am pleased to welcome representatives of the Association of Headteachers in Secondary Schools. Gentlemen, we apologise for the delay in receiving you, and we look forward to your presentation.
1638.
Mr McKimm: Thank you, Chairman, and our thanks to the Education Committee for giving up its time this afternoon. On behalf of the Association of Headteachers in Secondary Schools, we welcome this opportunity to talk today.
1639.
I will make a brief introduction before giving way to my three colleagues. It would be pertinent if I were to give you some information about the association. It is a professional body that was formed in the early 1960s, and it is made up of all the post-primary secondary heads in the Province; that is running across all the education and library boards and the maintained, controlled and integrated sectors. In essence, our membership is made up of more than 260, of which approximately two thirds are active members.
1640.
We have made two submissions to the review body, and we anticipate that you have access to them. Both of those papers were recently presented at a conference attended by more than 100 post-primary secondary heads, and the recommendations of both papers were endorsed as the view of all those who attended. In essence, however, we see ourselves as executive members of the organisation speaking on behalf of the majority of post-primary secondary heads in the Province.
1641.
The executive is made up of two members from each of the education and library boards. Mr Browne represents schools on the Western Education and Library Board, Mr Rafferty is from the Belfast board, and Mr McCrea and I have our schools in the North Eastern Educational and Library Board area.
1642.
I must apologise on behalf of our chairperson, Ms Ann McGrath from Little Flower School in Belfast, who would have liked to have been here, but unfortunately she had a skiing accident recently and is recovering from a broken hip.
1643.
The Chairperson: On behalf of the Education Committee, please convey our warmest good wishes for her recovery.
1644.
Mr McKimm: Thank you, I will certainly do that.
1645.
Having made that introduction, the presentation we want to make is based on three strands. Mr McCrea is going to look at the current situation. He will be followed in turn by Mr Rafferty and Mr Browne, who will look at how we think things ought to be. Mr McCrea will be discussing our position on selection as it currently stands, and Mr Rafferty will then take on board some of the principles laid down in our submission paper. Mr Browne will look directly at our proposals.
1646.
Mr McCrea: Good afternoon, Chairman. As Mr McKimm mentioned, I will be concentrating on what is the purpose of selection and its effects. There may have been historical reasons for our 11-plus, but we are looking at the twenty-first century, and, as an association, we are looking at its current purpose. In examining that purpose, it seems to us that there is absolutely no educational basis for its retention.
1647.
We look at selection as favouring the needs of institutions rather than children. That is a very important point. All of us who are involved in education, or have an input into education, want the very best for our children. If you ask yourself if selection is needed, the answer must be that it is not needed for children in the twenty-first century. It is needed only to maintain certain types of institutions. That is an important point.
1648.
We need to put children first. What are the effects on children and how many? By definition it devalues the majority of children. It is clearly stated that 51% will not obtain the top grades. What sort of democracy devalues the majority of its citizens at the age of 10 or 11?
1649.
The second issue is that not only does the transfer test devalue the majority of children, but also from our experience - and this is well documented in the Gallagher and Smith report - it damages many children's self-esteem. As parents and teachers, we realise that self-esteem and self-belief are extremely important. In the twenty-first century we want Northern Ireland to attract the right sort of industry, have a booming economy and a well-trained and skilled workforce. It is, therefore, crucial that we do not continue to damage the majority of our children at the age of 10 or 11.
1650.
It is well documented that the transfer test also distorts the primary school curriculum. Primary schools, in latter years, have concentrated heavily on getting children through those tests. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction among our colleagues in the primary sector. The transfer test devalues, damages and distorts. It also disadvantages children from particular social backgrounds. We still use the term "grammar"; but I have to point out that there is no grammar school education. There is education in a grammar school, but there is no distinctive grammar school education. We have the common curriculum. It is a fact that the intake of that type of institution is largely from non-manual backgrounds, whereas the intake from non-selective schools is mainly from manual backgrounds. We are saying that there is a disadvantage built into the selective system, and that needs to be addressed.
1651.
In our association there is growing concern about the disaffection among a significant number of young people, and as a teacher, I think that is one of the saddest things to come across. Resentment is built up in young people who feel that they are not as good as others or that others are more privileged than they are. That is a sad fact, and we try to deal with it as best we can. Perhaps those young people can see only one route or ladder to success, but the education system should be the trellis whereby everyone's aptitudes and abilities are recognised and developed, and there is a system of self-esteem in place. Mutual esteem should also be encouraged.
1652.
The current selection system means that there will always be a great divide in terms of the differentiation of attainment at the age of 15 and 16 - at the end of Key Stage 4. In the 1950s 20% of young people were successful, but that figure is now up to 40%. I assume it is not the case that children now are twice as intelligent as the youngsters in the 1950s were, but it is the case that as long as we retain selection we are going to have a differentiation of attainment at Key Stage 4 between institutions.
1653.
Is there an educational reason for retaining selection? We have not come up with one. Are there educational reasons for getting rid of selection? We feel that there are very strong arguments for getting rid of it as soon as possible.
1654.
Mr Rafferty: The experience of the members of our association, who number over 100 across the Province, is of working almost exclusively with students who were found to be somehow unsuitable for the prize at the age of 11.
1655.
The greatest problem that we face with children aged 11 and 12 - and which continues until they are 17 - is not our lack of belief in them but their lack of belief in themselves. We probably spend more time talking to students about what we believe they are capable of. The difficulty is to convince them that it is wrong to think that that is for others and not them. The impact does not go away. We know that, because we talk to members of staff; it leaves a legacy that does not go away. People remember the day they were told that they did not get the "qualifying".
1656.
I want to mention a recent report from Scotland. I was almost going to avoid saying that it was published in Scotland, lest you thought that we believed that the solution was just to follow the Scottish example. I do not want to talk about the actual report, but in many ways its title summarises what we think the underlying principles of a reformed system here should be. The title is 'Implementing Inclusiveness, Realising Potential'. The reason why I believe that it is such an apt title is that we have practised exclusivity. We have selected, promoted, encouraged and celebrated the achievements and potential of a minority, with a great deal of disregard for the majority of students who feel that they are not part of that. There is no doubt that we have wasted an awful lot of potential. There are many adults in the community whose educational potential and possible contribution to society has not been achieved. The association believes that society has paid a price for that and will continue to do so.
1657.
We welcome the opportunity to be involved in effecting a change. If it is followed through, there will be an opportunity, which did not exist before, and I think will not come again. It is particularly valuable that we are not meeting a Minister who is an MP for somewhere in England, Scotland or Wales. This is about local people and children. We have an opportunity to do something. The Committee, the Department of Education and we are charged with a responsibility which has greater potential than that of any other Department or Committee to make a contribution that will make a difference and a change to this society. However, if we blow it, it will be on our consciences.
1658.
We are also encouraged by the vision in the Programme for Government. It says
"Our vision is to extend accessibility, choice and excellence throughout our education system, raise standards and eliminate low achievement."
It talks about
"seeking to provide high quality education to all, with equal access for all."
One of the priority areas to be addressed is
"inequalities in the life experiences of our citizens"
which includes "educational opportunity" among a number of things. On the section entitled 'Tackling Poverty and Social Disadvantage' it says that there should be
"a particular emphasis on children."
1659.
That is a very laudable vision, but our fear is that visions are sometimes toned down and reduced in their breadth. Why? It is because people say that you must be realistic. You do not compromise vision. Realism may affect the pace at which it is brought to reality, but it should not be compromised. Our association has difficulty understanding how the principles of that vision can be realised by continuing with a selective system.
1660.
We are very fortunate here; we have great advantages. Young people here are second to none.
1661.
We read in the paper about the problems that they are having in England - if you turn up and say that you are interested in teaching, you could probably get a job tomorrow. We do not have a shortage of teaching staff; our problem is that we have qualified, great young teachers who cannot get jobs. We also have a sense - and I do not think that it will stay for ever - of hope for the future that is tangible in society in ways that have not been experienced in the lifetime of anyone in our society.
1662.
Education can serve a future; education can ensure that the division that is in the draft programme happens. We believe that that is your responsibility; it is the responsibility of the Assembly. I do not think that I need to repeat what we think that the Assembly needs to do to follow that through. The principles are there. We applaud them and we want to see them realised.
1663.
Mr Browne: Our executive committee reviewed the present situation and came to some conclusions that formed the basis for our deliberations and proposals. The evidence crystallised by the Gardner report clearly demonstrates that our present method of selection fails even to select accurately on the basis of the narrow parameters currently employed. The work of Howard Gardner and others has shown that there is a range of multiple intelligences that are possessed to different degrees by people. That undermines, in our view, the case for selective and separate education. So much talent goes unrecognised and underdeveloped because of the narrow focus of our education system. It is perhaps most relevant to you as politicians that the society of the future will be very complex. It will be characterised by rapid change. It is essential that all of our citizens be given the full range of educational experiences - social, academic, vocational, technical, sporting and entrepreneurial - to enable them to operate with confidence in the society of the future. Many commentators suggest that the concept of a "job for life" will be dead in the future.
1664.
After much consideration, we decided that the Scottish model seemed to be the best model for Northern Ireland. Therefore, our submission is based on its appropriateness. You have read it and looked at the questions on the detail of the proposals. I will run through some of the main points.
1665.
In a society demographically similar to our own, with a similar urban/rural mix and many shared values, the Scottish model is accepted and used by 95% of Scottish parents. It offers the curriculum flexibility across the full range of abilities in institutions that share parity of esteem. There is a greater parity of esteem for and wider access to the academic, technical, vocational and entrepreneurial subjects and skills because they are taught in common institutions. At every level, primary and secondary schools are truly community schools linked in a common purpose; there is no distortion of the primary school curriculum caused by the requirements of selection as we have in Northern Ireland. There is a seamless transfer from primary to secondary schools that enables close links, in curricular terms, that can be evidenced by the age 5 to 14 curriculum in Scotland.
1666.
Secondary heads have told us that they received detailed information on transferring pupils, including their preferred learning styles, something that I think is quite impossible in our situation. There is a greater sense of collegiality between schools and teachers; they all feel that they are in the same business. The GCSE equivalent outputs in terms of results compare favourably with Northern Ireland and very favourably with the rest of the UK. Most significantly, there is a high rate of post-compulsory - that is post-16 - educational take up. In two schools that a group from our executive visited, 94% and 85% of pupils were staying on for post-16 education - that is quite amazing. There is a high take up of further education. Schooling, as we know, is an intermediate process; the 11 to 18 stage is an intermediate stage. In Scotland they have people who stay on to the end of the 11 to 18 route and then go on to both further and higher education.
1667.
Of all Scottish 21-year-olds, 46% complete higher education courses. In England, the corresponding figure is 28%. I do not have the figure for Northern Ireland. Although 50% of all university entrants in Scotland come from further education colleges, the point is not only that pupils are staying on post-16 in the state school system, they are also, at a later stage, going into the further education system and eventually getting to university. As I have said, 50% of all university entrants come from further education colleges - in Northern Ireland the figure is 21%, in England it is 13% and in Wales it is 5%. It is a tremendous success that there are people staying on and going further. This system seems to offer the greatest potential for increasing achievement and participation of all our citizens by removing the stigma of rejection and, what we in Northern Ireland know only too well, its concomitant alienation.
1668.
The Chairperson: I wish to press you on the Scottish comprehensive model that you have clearly outlined. We have taken evidence from other groups and interested parties who challenge the statement that examination results in Scotland are comparative to those in Northern Ireland. They have also indicated that, whilst comprehensive schooling appears to work in rural Scotland, it is neither popular nor well regarded in major urban areas such as Edinburgh. There is also an assertion of criticism in the Gallagher/Smith report in that it does not stretch the more academically gifted pupils. How do we avoid what have been termed "bog-standard" comprehensive schools?
1669.
Mr Browne: With regard to your first point about the comparability of results with the Scottish system, we had a conference here at which both Dr Linda Croxford from Edinburgh University and a number of educationalists were present. The comparability of A to C grades at the equivalent of our own level had been discussed at this meeting. Dr Croxford, among others, rebutted those figures. It was questioned whether this included either grades one and two or grades one, two and three in the Scottish system that were accepted. From the evidence that was given, it appeared that that was effectively rebutted by Dr Croxford. People who raise that type of objection at the lower end are often focussing on the upper end of achievement. We recognise across the full ability range that the achievements in Scotland are higher than they are in Northern Ireland. One of our great problems here is that built into our structure or perhaps even as an outcome of it, we have a long history of underachievement. This needs to be addressed. Also, state provision should be looking at all pupils equally.
1670.
Furthermore, there has been some recognition in Scotland that the most able pupils can be encouraged. I was in a school in Edinburgh where they are actually doing that - there are children moving through that system at an accelerated rate - and they are also offering further qualifications at the upper end. There are ways and strategies for meeting that problem.
1671.
We very much believe, as we said earlier, that secondary education is an intermediate stage. The most important thing for society is where people finally end up, and there is clear evidence that at degree level and at the higher education level, the Scottish system is extremely successful and productive. You mentioned the urban/rural problem in Scotland. We had the opportunity to speak to the leader of the Headteachers' Association of Scotland, leaders of the Educational Institute of Scotland, several highly placed academics from Edinburgh University and others in the teaching profession and the education world. They told us that Edinburgh is unique because it has a very highly developed commercial and financial centre, which brings many people in from London and other parts of England. The situation in Edinburgh is very un-Scottish, and I would suggest that it is not comparable to our own, even in our cities. People from the international business community are moving in and out. Many of those very wealthy people live in the inner city areas, and this has skewed the position. Also, the Scottish independent sector, which is attended by about 20% in Edinburgh, is highly dependent on people coming in from Australia, the United States, England and Northern Ireland. Incidentally, with the end of assisted places, it is contracting, and schools are amalgamating. It is a very wealthy sector, which is not really representative of state provision in Scotland.
1672.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much. I need to move on to others, but that was a very comprehensive answer.
1673.
Mr McHugh: Young people are, as you have said, our main resource, rather than resources in industry which other countries have. How do you deal with industries saying that we are not providing them with the finished product, that there is a shortfall - even in the vocational sector, for example, in engineering? In any part of Ireland, we have been leaning heavily towards producing people who can be leaders and exporting them to other countries. We have to be flexible enough to do both and to give people enough opportunity for flexibility in their education to enable them to go in either direction. How do you see a system solving that?
1674.
Mr Rafferty: This is not to repeat evidence that has already been presented, but the CCEA proposals for the future Key Stage 4 try to address that. You mentioned serving the needs of industry and mentioned examples of engineering. One of the problems endemic in our society is about children who attend grammar schools. There seems to be a tradition that that is a preparation for two professions: medicine and law. We believe that the opportunity should be there for every child to go in a variety of directions. I recently saw CCEA's proposals. They talk about key skills and personal development, together with scientific or technological, creative and work-related components for every child. It would be to the advantage of every youngster, including those at grammar schools, for that to be made part of everyone's curriculum, particularly between the ages of 14 and 16. As an association, we have a concern that a decision can be made by children or their parents as to which route or career to follow. We see the period between 14 and 16 as the opportunity to gain experience of a range of different possible vocations, so that at 16 an informed choice can be made.
1675.
If a child has no experience of the range of available careers, on what basis would they make the decision at the age of 14? Would they make their choice because they are told that something is good, because their friends are doing it, or because it looks nice? The contribution of the work-related component is that during those two years, every child will have the opportunity to be exposed to a range of potential careers. It is important to learn which things you do not like as well as those that you do, so that you do not makea decision that sets you on a route that you cannot change.
1676.
The proposals for the Northern Ireland curriculum that have emerged from the Council for Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA), especially those for Key Stage 4, are ahead of anything that has been proposed in England and Wales. That is another example of how we come up with better solutions when we try to address our own situation.
1677.
Mrs E Bell: We agree with your principle that children should not be condemned as failures. In your paper you talk about the implications for current school structures and how you would improve the situation. Would you recommend all-ability classes for all ages in the comprehensive system that you seem to be in favour of, or would you stream the classes? The word "comprehensive" is a dirty word, like the word "grammar", so that would have to be changed as well.
1678.
Mr McCrea: Those questions are valid, but they should really come after the structural change. We want, like you, to try to get away from the issue of whether people are for or against a grammar school education. We have two different types of institutions at present. We would like to break that mould and have centres of learning that are strategically placed throughout the Province. Each community should have a centre of learning in which they can have confidence.
1679.
During the day, these centres of learning would be open for the needs of the community and the children. The organisation of the centres would be based on a professional judgement, although parents would have an influence on that. There is a great deal of research being done at the moment into the most effective ways of learning and teaching. We must get up to date - as a society in the North of Ireland, and as educationalists. We must look at the research that is being done and at the most effective ways of learning, and then organise the centres of learning to teach people in the most effective way.
1680.
It may be, therefore, that a mathematician will look at the research and say that the best way to organise the centres of learning would be to have closely identified sets. However, the literary person might feel that they could teach to a broad spectrum of ability and that that method would be the most effective way, at the time, of ensuring that standards were up to scratch, and that all young people were served by the school.
1681.
I know that it is difficult for us to break out of the mould that we have been brought up with. However, we need centres of learning in the community, and each centre can base itself on up-to-date research and organise itself to ensure that it provides effective teaching.
1682.
Mrs E Bell: Are most people saying that a change of mindset is needed?
1683.
Mr McCrea: Yes. I think that we must have a change of mindset. We are in the twenty-first century now, and we cannot return to the old arguments. I can see the historical reasons for a grammar school education, but those reasons are not applicable to the twenty-first century, and anyone who thinks that they are should think about what is happening to the children and what we need in society.
1684.
Mr Hamilton: I may not have got the gist of the presentation, but you suggested that the current system results in a select group of children thinking of themselves as successes, while the rest regard themselves as inferior, or as failures.
1685.
You suggest that there is parity of esteem in the Scottish system - that you praised - between the academic and vocational courses offered in schools. Given that not all pupils stay on after the age of 16, leaving to attend FE colleges or university, does that parity of esteem that is created between the academic and vocational courses at school carry into society? Does it carry into business and industry, and so on? Do they give it the same parity of esteem? If is does not, you are back to teaching courses to a group who would leave and say "That is no use to me, because I cannot get anything with it - I am a failure." If it does not carry out into society, how would you bring that circumstance about?
1686.
Mr Browne: Mr McCrea said that a change of mindset is essential. We know that in our society there are narrow mindsets. Mr McHugh made a valid point about encouraging our people to go into technology and entrepreneurship. When you have the common institutions in which people study those subjects - and indeed the most able students will be encouraged to take them up and see their relevance - then employers will have a change of mindset. That is because they will find that they will be getting a wider range of ability for sectors of employment than they would previously have had.
1687.
Some time ago - and I know this is anecdotal - I was listening to a programme on the industrial revolution that asked why it had been successful. There was no dissociation of sensibility at that time - there were people who were interested in technology working with people with interests in the arts, and so on, and they felt a common esteem. The best brains in the country went into technology and engineering. The divided system in Northern Ireland means that people are predisposed to feel that there are certain elite professions, and Mr Rafferty referred to that earlier. We cannot afford that predisposition in the rapidly changing, highly technological society of the future, nor can we afford to have a section of our population that is not as advanced and confident with technology as they may be as individuals in other areas. That must change. As the world becomes complex, it will be necessary for a range of our people to be equipped with those skills. We will no longer have lifelong jobs, and individuals will have to be more entrepreneurial in their approach to employment.
1688.
Mr Rafferty: I would like to add a confessional anecdote. The mindset change is not just for those outside education, and I include myself. I could have a student with the potential to achieve five As at GCSE, and he could say to me that he wants to be a mechanic. My initial reaction would be to try to discourage him. Why? It is because I carry the values that have been inculcated through the education system. Why should he not be a mechanic? Why should he not be the best mechanic in the western world? Why do I immediately say "You are capable of better than that?" We all carry that mindset because we have been through the system, and that goes for everybody - it does not just apply to employers or teachers - it is for all of us, and I am included, because I am a product of the system. We all are, and that is the way we look at things. In looking at the issue like that we are serving the future of the society - we are not producing, and will not produce the type of young people that we need for the industries that will be necessary for the financial systems of the society that will develop.
1689.
The Chairperson: The last question is from Mr McElduff.
1690.
Mr McElduff: Gallagher and Smith examined various other models in their report, but the absence of analysis on the system in the rest of Ireland represented a gap. Has your association looked at all closely at the system in the Twenty-Six Counties? Last week we had a presentation from Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta, and Caitríona Ruane, one of the members, said that she had a horrific image of the 11-plus when she was growing up. A biomedical scientist from Donegal with whom I spoke in Tyrone County Hospital talked in a similar vein.
1691.
Secondly, how are we to achieve parity of esteem between academic and vocational courses and qualifications? What are your views of the German model, which has a very pronounced separation between the academic and the vocational?
1692.
Mr Rafferty: If you do not mind, I shall start at the other end. Something has been done in the Republic which would also serve our system very well. A recent body of research looked not at students' achievements at the end of post-primary education or after the completion of the equivalent of A level, but at what happened to them afterwards and how they did in university. After all, the purpose of the system is to ensure that they make good graduates. They produced some frightening statistics, but they were examining the reality. With some university courses, there was a drop-out rate of 40%.
1693.
It seems to me that we have never looked at our system in that light or asked what happens to our A level successes. Do we assume that the job of the school is finished? Surely the purpose was to ensure that they achieved at university. One of the things the Republic has done, which would serve us well, is to ascertain whether the children continue to succeed or if A level represents their peak. Surely it is supposed to be a continuing progression.
1694.
The comprehensive dimension in the Republic has strengths, but it also has weaknesses, since there is no single system. There are vocational colleges alongside traditional colleges. There is no parity of esteem, and things vary depending on what part of the state one is in. The rationalisation of provision has been avoided. If we were to take on their system when coming up with an alternative, we could not avoid doing so. It is not appropriate that oversubscribed academic institutions stand beside undersubscribed vocational education colleges.
1695.
There would be benefits in that they have a more developed vocational education structure than we; it goes much further than NVQs and GNVQs. It has weaknesses, for there is still the anomaly whereby, to benefit from a curriculum very similar to the CCEA proposals, a child must be out of school. If you are in mainstream education, you are not allowed to take the foundation course, but if you drop out and attend community provision, you are allowed.
1696.
Many strengths have been developed from which we could benefit. The Republic's system embraces more and overcomes some of the deficiencies which I perceive in the German model.
1697.
I have an image of the latter. It reminds me of John Cleese and the Two Ronnies - which is what we would be bringing in. It is a case of knowing one's place and looking up or down at the other person. I see no advantage in replacing a system which bifurcates at 11 with one which would divide into three or more at 14. The time between the ages of 14 to 16 represents an opportunity to provide every child with what the CCEA proposes - a vocational basis to make informed choices.
1698.
Mr McCrea: If we imported the German model, it would be an absolute disaster for young people. In no way does it address the issues we mentioned concerning selection. Worse than that, it denies very intelligent young people the opportunity to experience vocational as well as academic courses. The only way we can envisage parity of esteem between the vocational and the academic is by offering both options to all children, regardless of ability and school. That is the way forward in the twenty-first century. We do not want to go back to the 1940s or the 1950s. We must move forward, and I must say that the German example would be an even worse disaster than what we have currently.
1699.
Mr Browne: I have friends in Germany, and they are in the German education system. There is a disparity of esteem within the system in Germany, although it has to be said that they have a greater respect for technicaland vocational traditions and training. That has come about because of their development after the second world war, when technical skills were vital in daily life and in the reconstruction of their economy, their houses and heating systems. They have a greater degree of respect for that system than we have. Our society is not going to achieve the same level, and I agree with my colleagues that we are not going to get that parity of esteem between the systems.
1700.
In Germany, there is a disparity concerning ability. They have three gradations in those Länder that have that system. Some of the others are comprehensive. However, there is that disparity, and I believe that it is also quite closely allied to social class, which is one of the problems behind our current educational provision.
1701.
As regards the Republic of Ireland, there are very successful examples there. However, one of the things that makes getting information very difficult for researchers is that there is a great variety of provision across the board there.
1702.
The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. We appreciate the time and effort you have made. The Education Committee has been to Germany to view the education systems there, and we hope to go to Scotland to see their comprehensive system.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 26 April 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr E Bell )
Ms L Brown ) Institute of Directors
Mr M McCall )
1703.
The Chairperson: I am pleased to welcome representatives from the Institute of Directors (IoD). I welcome Mr Bell, Mr McCall and Ms Brown. I invite you to make your presentation, and then to answer members' questions.
1704.
Mr Eric Bell: Thank you very much for the invitation. I am Eric Bell, chairman of the Institute of Directors in Northern Ireland. My day job is as senior partner in Grant Thornton, a firm of chartered accountants. Mervyn McCall is chairman of our education committee, and he is also the business development director of Mivan Limited. Linda Brown is the divisional director of the IoD. She is also a former teacher and further education lecturer. All three of us will play a limited part today, and we hope to limit the presentation to about 10 minutes.
1705.
The business community is anxious to ensure that the education system we devise in this consultation process will reflect the best that is available in the world. The business community has stressed the importance of the workforce as a key asset in the development of the economy. Strategy 2010 called for investment in creating a knowledge-based economy. Existing skill shortages may prevent us attaining our objectives. The education system has a vital role to play in ensuring that the workforce of the future has the necessary attributes for employability.
1706.
We recognise that great strides have been made in the present education system in increasing the qualifications of school leavers, and that there is much of excellence to be applauded. However, we also recognise that the system does not allow every child to achieve his or her full potential. Young people should not be entering secondary school feeling that they are failures, or that the transfer test creates that feeling. Parental attitudes and the media have reinforced that view. Grammar schools are seen as best and secondary schools as second best, mainly because they are competing in the same subjects. We need to develop excellence in vocational or technical areas and the non-academic schools can take on the role of delivering the necessary skills and competencies.
1707.
Business needs graduates, but it also needs competent technicians. The system is seen as failing to provide in that area.
1708.
Our proposals could ensure that what is already good in the system can be maintained and, at the same time, raise the standards of the rest. Ms Brown will sketch out how we gathered and prepared our report.
1709.
Ms Brown: The Institute of Directors has about 850 members in Northern Ireland. We consulted widely with the community and had universal support from our members for the final document, which appeared in our own magazine. We carried out a postal and e-mail survey of our members. We discussed those responses with our education committee, which consists of about 15 people from both business and academic backgrounds. We discussed it with the other main business organisations, the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) and the Chamber of Commerce, and a draft report was issued to a number of maintained and controlled primary and secondary schools.
1710.
The final draft was produced after that consultation with the education committee and it was approved by our Northern Ireland committee, which again consists of 15 members, who come mostly from the private sector although there are also voluntary and academic representations. I would like to emphasise that it did have the universal support of our members. They all had the opportunity to look at the full report, and it was also printed in our magazine.
1711.
Mr Eric Bell: I was surprised with that support because it came from people from all sorts of sectors. Mr McCall will talk about the highlights of the submission.
1712.
Mr McCall: At the start of the submission we say "Keep the best, improve the rest". That means that our education system has a well-deserved reputation for high academic performance. The opportunity to achieve the highest standards should be extended to all pupils. Secondary schools should place more emphasis technical and vocational areas, and should be resourced to provide a high quality service to pupils. Research is required into why some secondary schools cannot provide the right environment to enable all pupils to achieve their full potential. That is about raising the lower standards of those schools to the higher standards of other secondary schools.
1713.
We believe in parity of esteem, and we attach great importance to the quality of all education, both vocational and academic. We are most concerned about the lack of esteem accorded to people working in what are termed as "blue-collar" jobs as opposed to "white-collar" jobs. Business success depends as much on those who make and supply goods as it does on those who extend the boundaries of knowledge. Positive attitudes to careers achieved through training apprenticeships or further education must be adopted. We realise that business has a role to play, particularly in influencing parents about the importance of those roles.
1714.
Change is required. The members surveyed on post-primary education overwhelmingly supported the models that proposed a two-route system. There was little support for a comprehensive system, which has not, by and large, produced successful results elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Dr John Marks's latest publication 'The Betrayed Generations: Standards in British Schools 1950-2000' compares the achievements of the system in Northern Ireland, which is almost 100% selective, with the achievements of the system in England, which is approximately 90% comprehensive. He concludes that our achievements are substantially better for both grammar and secondary school pupils.
1715.
It is often argued that the comprehensive system increases social inclusion. The IoD believes that such a system could reduce social inclusion in Northern Ireland as the high level of social, and indeed religious, mixing that occurs in our grammar schools and some secondary schools would be lost. It is likely that families would move home to fall within the catchment area of the most popular schools, thus making social splits worse. I have personal experience of that through working with people in England.
1716.
We are really suggesting multiple opportunity and choice and that the current secondary level schools should become part of a single body of post-primary schools without the grammar or secondary labels. All schools should offer a range of opportunities, some common to all and some that would place greater emphasis on either academic or vocational pursuits.
1717.
We envisage that the present grammar schools would maintain their academic bias and that the secondary schools would become centres of excellence in vocational and technical areas. To a certain degree, we believe in a step-by-step approach rather than in changing everything at once.
1718.
The decision on which school a pupil enters should be a matter of choice involving the parent and the pupil. They should receive guidance from teachers to make sure that the child is likely to benefit from the type of education that he or she has chosen. That guidance would be based on continuous assessment throughout primary school.
1719.
Some research will probably be required into how that assessment can best be carried out. However, there would be no selection test as part of the transfer procedure. The current Key Stage 2 testing could continue as a method of assessing pupils's key skills.
1720.
Ideally, schools will be adequately resourced, but, if necessary, they need to be allowed to offer more places to satisfy the demand. In any system, however, certain schools will always be oversubscribed. The IoD proposes that schools apply similar criteria to those currently used to allocate places until the balance between supply and demand has been worked out - that will take some time.
1721.
A broad common curriculum would apply to all schools, with certain core subjects compulsory in all of them. Added to those, a wide range of vocational and academic subjects would be available on the basis of pupil demand in each school for more academic or vocational career routes. Those must be made available to enable the curriculum to be delivered and to maintain high standards in all schools.
1722.
Pupils will have the opportunity at age 14, as part of ongoing guidance and assessment, to move from one type of school to another if their aspirations and aptitudes have changed since they were aged 11. Such a move would be possible because the syllabus for any given subject would be common to both academic and vocational schools.
1723.
Parity of esteem for pupils from all schools also requires an improved qualification framework. Pupils from vocationally-orientated schools should be able to leave with the same grades in GCSEs and A levels as those at a more academic school, regardless of the subjects chosen. That forms the main part of our recommendation.
1724.
We did include a small section on integration because we found that we could not review the whole post-primary education system without taking that issue on board. Any administration that seeks to promote excellence should seriously address the segregation between the maintained and controlled sectors. Segregation is politically and culturally divisive, against equality of opportunity and wasteful of resources. Grammar schools attract a broad range of social classes. In the controlled sector, and in parts of the maintained sector, the schools also show a considerable religious mix - evidence that parents, despite traditional prejudices, send their children to schools that promise a high quality of schooling.
1725.
Mr Eric Bell: We called for the procedure to be slowed down and are pleased that a further five months have been allocated to the consultation process. However, sufficient time should be allowed to find the right answer. International benchmarking on research will help with that.
1726.
Comprehensive schools would be a mistake as they have not proven to be successful anywhere else in the world. It is extremely difficult to teach children of mixed ability in one class, and if we were to go down that route we would need about four times as many teachers as we currently have. The pass and fail system must be replaced by continuous assessment. Research into how that can be done is required. Moreover, choice should replace selection.
1727.
The excellence of grammar schools must not be diluted, but retained in schools that are academically focused. Resources must be provided to create vocationally-biased schools, which provide high quality education for all pupils. GCSEs should be applied to all vocational subjects, so that a pupil leaving school will have seven GCSEs. It does not matter whether those are in English and Maths - they can be in any vocational subject.
1728.
Academic and vocational routes must be equally valued. The key is the employability of all young people, because pupils become employees and then, I hope, entrepreneurs. The education system provides the qualifications and framework that must ensure that achievements in both areas are equally rewarded.
1729.
The Chairperson: What is your definition of vocational education?
1730.
Ms Brown: We define it as education that leads on to training - into apprenticeships or employment as opposed to higher education - although people who go into employment often then move into higher and further education.
1731.
The Chairperson: Do you see a streaming of those who are more academically gifted and those who would prefer a more vocational education? Your distinction is that it is to provide plumbers and electricians - that type of employment.
1732.
Mr McCall: Yes, and computer technicians and programmers. We are looking to provide the technical skills that are in short supply. One of the current problems is that those careers are not currently valued.
1733.
The Chairperson: At what stage do you make that distinction?
1734.
Mr Eric Bell: The transfer process should happen at age 11, and between the ages of 11 and 14 the routes would be similar. However, from the age of 11, specialist vocational subjects would be added. The lack of discipline in some schools could result from pupils not being stretched and challenged in subjects that interest them.
1735.
Ms Brown: Alternatively, they are being pushed down routes that do not meet their career aspirations; they do not see their subjects as leading them in the right direction. It appears that if you are in a secondary school and you wish to take the vocational route, you may be forced into it. The two curricula are now so similar that you will be forced down routes that will not necessarily make you a qualified electrician. Your chosen subjects may not appear appropriate to your aptitudes and desires.
1736.
The Chairperson: Perhaps a period of orientation is needed?
1737.
Ms Brown: And the option of changing from one type of school to another.
1738.
Mrs Eileen Bell: In all your presentations you seem to be extolling the advantages of grammar schools, which I think we all agree with. The IoD, along with many others, has also fallen into the trap of implying that nothing good can be transferred from the secondary schools. Can anything useful be transferred from secondary schools? Moreover, could the grammar school system, as it is, be transferred without change?
1739.
Mr McCall, you mention integration in section 14 of your submission. It was music to my ears when I read somewhere that the IoD would urge that consideration of full integration be kept at the forefront.
1740.
I agree with that. Are you talking about integration as I am, or are you talking about bringing the maintained and the controlled schools together?
1741.
Mr McCall: I am talking about bringing the maintained and controlled schools together.
1742.
Mrs Eileen Bell: You are not talking about integrated education as it is usually talked about - all traditions and all abilities.
1743.
Mr Eric Bell: Integrated education involves all abilities. We are talking about controlled and maintained schools.
1744.
Mrs Eileen Bell: I wanted to clarify that. I am a little disappointed but I am sure that I can go along with that.
1745.
Mr McCall: We have not covered it properly in the paper, but we are against mixed-ability classes.
1746.
Mrs Eileen Bell: I agree with that.
1747.
Mr Eric Bell: I am disappointed that it is seen as a grammar school paper.
1748.
Mrs Eileen Bell: I said that it seems that you say that grammar schools "Keep the best, improve the rest".
1749.
The Chairperson: Mr Bell would like to address the point.
1750.
Mrs Eileen Bell: I want him to address the right point.
1751.
Mr Eric Bell: There are excellent grammar schools and excellent secondary schools. There are also some poor grammar schools and some poor secondary schools. Similarly, there are both excellent and poor secondary schools in the same area. We want to know why that is. We can give you answers, but they are our answers, which have not been properly researched.
1752.
It comes down to management. The principal and his or her attitudes contribute to poorer schools. Some of it may be attributable to single-sex schools - the curriculum may not be as appropriate for some boys as it is elsewhere. That is why we want more research on it.
1753.
There are truly excellent secondary schools that anybody would be proud to attend. Much of that is down to what we consider to be the management of those schools. We want to see that progress.
1754.
Mr McCall: We struggled in deciding a name for those schools. We suggest that there be one level of school after post-primary education. Specialist schools are emerging, for example, in music or sport. However, schools should share common subjects.
1755.
Existing grammar schools are good at delivering academic to higher academic education. While they should be left to do that, they should also have to broaden their curriculum to incorporate more vocational subjects. Pupils will then get enough experience in the first three years to determine the direction that they want to take.
1756.
Secondary schools have virtually the same curriculum. That should be reduced to the core subjects that everybody must do. Those schools should introduce more technical skills and things that were lost with the demise of technical schools. Other education systems have technical schools of excellence.
1757.
The economy needs those types of people, and they are currently not coming through the system. We are struggling over how to label schools. We could end up with two or six categories. All the details have not been sorted out, but that was the direction that we were thinking of.
1758.
Mr S Wilson: I want to ask two questions about parity of esteem. In paragraph 6.8 of the your submission, you express concern about the lack of esteem accorded to people working in blue-collar jobs compared with those in white-collar jobs. The implication is that attitudes must be changed at secondary level so that people do not see exclusively see those who go to university as the success stories and those who do not as the failures.
1759.
What should schools do to change those attitudes? Unfortunately, they are already bound up in society's perceptions and in schools through careers advice et cetera.
1760.
Mr Eric Bell: The number of teachers from purely academic backgrounds in Northern Ireland is out of line with England. When we challenge the Department it says that it does not have the resources. There is not enough switching between industry and academic careers.
1761.
Career development teachers are better than they were, but the teaching is still done in an academic way. We have developed Enterprise Insight with the CBI and the Chambers of Commerce across the whole of the United Kingdom. We announced that about six months ago. We are not going replicate what is happening with Young Enterprise. We are going to harness our people much more.
1762.
There is a case for saying that 16- to 18-year-olds should spend one day a week in a business environment. It would have to be carefully worked out so that the pupils would be given something sensible to do rather than making the coffee and photocopying. Many young pupils do not understand the disciplines of work until they are in that environment. However, if they are put in that environment during the school time they may be keener to obtain some sort of academic achievement by the time they are 18.
1763.
Mr McCall: The existing transfer system causes much of the problem. When you have an 11-plus exam that you either pass or fail, the pupils going to the secondary school consider themselves failures, as do their parents and teachers. Moreover, for no valid reason, secondary school teachers consider themselves failures because they are teaching in those schools. We must get away from pass and failure and into allocation. It is about putting people where they are best suited.
1764.
You just have to look at what pupils do when they come home from school to know where their talents lie, yet they are still stuck doing things that they do not enjoy. Part of it is about getting away from failure.
1765.
Mr S Wilson: That neatly leads on to my second question. You say that we should look for post-primary education, and where schools are oversubscribed we should apply similar criteria as is used to allocate places under the current transfer system. Even though schools may have the same name, they are taking people down different routes - the vocational route or the technical route. It does not matter what you call them. First, parents will quickly suss that out. Secondly, you are not starting from a blank sheet of paper because existing schools have reputations in certain areas. Therefore, you are bound to get oversubscription.
1766.
All the evidence from elsewhere is that people tend, against the advice of primary school teachers, to push children into the academically-orientated schools. If you do not have academic criteria - you have said that you want to get away from the pass and fail problem - then you start using a whole range of criteria based on the test, or on whether parents or other children have attended the school. If those are the criteria you are going to use, does that not do away with the vital distinction, which you said is important, of having schools that take people down the academic or vocational route? If parents cannot be persuaded to make choices for their child - and I think they cannot - we must provide educational testing. Is that not implicit in what you have said?
1767.
Mr Eric Bell: It is our view that Key Stage 2 and continuous assessment form the ideal process. Teachers assess their pupils every week. The difficulty is that the current transfer test is a pass or fail situation on one or two days. If there is continuous assessment, pupils parents and teachers know that it will be taken into account if pupils end up wanting to go to a school that is vastly oversubscribed.
1768.
We believe in supply and demand. Good schools should be allowed to get bigger and those that are not good should be culled. If schools are not successful they may have to close and resources be reallocated elsewhere. It is easier in provincial towns to achieve these goals than in the urban areas of Derry and Belfast.
1769.
Mr McCall: Mr Wilson made the point that some schools will be oversubscribed, leading to fall-back on traditional methods. That is a disadvantage. However, that will occur in a small number of schools and for a few years. It is part of the process of change. However, it is a lot better than the alternative, which would be to change every school in every respect. In that case the whole educational system would suffer for many years. We propose the lesser of two evils.
1770.
Ms Lewsley: Unfortunately this consultation debate is about the 11-plus. We cannot simply answer "Yes, let's do away with the 11-plus" or "No, we want to keep it". The debate is much wider than that.
1771.
I am somewhat confused as to what exactly it is that you are proposing. I assume that you would like to keep the grammar schools and change them slightly by offering some type of vocational route on the edge of that system, while secondary schools continue to represent the main vocational route.
1772.
It follows on from what Mr Wilson said that this system would still leave us with haves and have-nots. Lack of recognition does not only exist in communities; it also comes from the business world. Many of the young people who get qualifications by a vocational route do not get the same recognition from business and industry as they would if they had followed an academic route. You have a big role to play.
1773.
I met Mr Eric Bell in another Committee and discussed the issue of Strategy 2010. We were talking about a new knowledge-based economy. What is your role in that and what contribution should you be making? It worries me that you propose to do away with the 11-plus while saying that there must still be some type of transfer test, perhaps by continuous assessment. You also propose that should schools be oversubscribed, we can apply the old criteria. This means that there will still be children who will be disadvantaged. Is that better than ensuring equality across the board by making every school equal? I am not sure what type of system you are recommending. I cannot see any difference between the system that you have mentioned and the one that we already have.
1774.
Mr Eric Bell: When we were carrying out our research, we asked how many pupils ended up in a different part of the system. For example, how many ended up in a secondary school when they wanted to be in a grammar school? We were told that this happened to less than 5% of pupils.
1775.
Ms Lewsley: How many of those pupils were in a grammar school but wanted to be in a secondary school? There were probably none.
1776.
Mr Eric Bell: That is a fallacy. Undoubtedly, some students have this experience. As Mr McCall said, there are people who go to grammar schools and suddenly discover after a year or two that this is not the place for them and that they should be elsewhere. Parental pressure may well mean that they do not want to move.
1777.
We believe that we are proposing a fundamental change. Many schools are excellent, whatever label they are known by. We want to change all the names - if governors directors agree - so that labels such as secondary grammar school or secondary modern are not used.
1778.
People will still know what the old name and category was. However, it is in some of our current secondary schools that difficulties appear to be arising. We propose the abolition of grammar and secondary schools. We want to call them all by one name.
1779.
Ms Lewsley: If there is no change in what a school offers, it is irrelevant what label you put on it. A school that is academically driven is still going to be a grammar school. Let us return to those children in that school whom you say will find out after a couple of years that they should not be there but should be in a secondary school. Why should they have to change from that school to another? Why should that school not be providing all that that child needs?
1780.
Mr McCall: The reason is that that is a very inefficient way of doing it. If you want to be the best at anything, the only way to do it is to specialise and focus. Our idea is that some of these schools will specialise, focus on and be really good at different things.
1781.
Ms Lewsley: Are you therefore saying that they are specialised schools?
1782.
Mr McCall: Yes. People seem to pick up on specialised schools for music, sport or other things, but we should also have schools which specialise in academic subjects. That is the important point. Your question related to oversubscription and the feelings of disadvantage which result. People will not be disadvantaged if resources are put into schools to which people want to go. Parents and pupils should have choice. We raised that in the event of the preferred schools' inability to cope, but putting the resources into those schools would be the way forward.
1783.
Mr McElduff: Language such as "supply and demand", "cull" and "efficiency" has not been heard for a long time in relation to children and schools, and it is important to record that.
1784.
Secondly, from an institutional point of view, and given that there is an emphasis on pupils' becoming employees and developing links in education with industry and business, I would have thought that a more thorough analysis, comparing the situation here with that in the rest of Ireland, might be appropriate. There is a cursory comparative reference on p11 of your submission, but none in the executive summary.
1785.
Is it possible to identify correctly the suitability of a child at the tender age of 10 or 11 for either the academic or the vocational route? Is it possible to determine aptitudes and aspirations at that age?
1786.
Mr Eric Bell: We do not have the research facilities to enable us to answer your question. We did look at what was happening in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere in the world. The vast majority of transfer procedures happen at 11 years old. If the rest of the world sees 11 as the right age, then we see nothing wrong with that.
1787.
If I offended you about supply and demand, then I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. In business, if the good is there we believe it should be encouraged and developed. If things which are not working properly cannot be made to work properly they should be stopped. That is what happens in business, day after day.
1788.
The links between business and education are growing. I have said to this Committee that pupils should spend one day a week in business. That is a major step forward, and I doubt that it has been put forward by anyone else. The amount of resources we produce and ask our members to allocate to education is growing because we see it as so important. We do so much, but there is a limit to our resources.
1789.
Mr K Robinson: The Chairperson took my vocational question straight away - he knew it was mine - and one by one my list has been ticked off. Before we start, I do not want any apologies. We are here to discuss things and tease them out, so no-one should be apologising for anything. We want to know what is going on.
1790.
You come from a business background, I come from an educational one. As a primary school teacher, I had to deal with the 11-plus for twenty-odd years, advise parents and watch children go on into different routes. I am now going to put myself into your place. What does the customer want? Who is the customer? You are the customer as business. I am the customer as a parent. The child is a customer, as is society, generally.
1791.
What do they want from our education system? Parents want security and social and financial benefits for their children. They want their children to have a good school experience and obtain good qualifications. These are laudable aims. However, the perception is that if you go to a grammar school you will finish up on the golf course; if you go to a secondary school you will end up looking for a second job in the evenings to boost your earnings and your financial status.
1792.
You talked about the availability of apprenticeships through vocational schools. Mr Wilson and I have had experience of this. Trying to find slots for children to get work experience is very difficult. Sometimes it is very difficult to get industry, commerce and business to engage with schools and vice-versa. You have highlighted the fact that there is very limited business experience within the teaching profession. Few of us have experienced industry over an extensive period.
1793.
Apprenticeships in Germany and in other places are linked very tightly with the business community. They are not away-day or work-experience situations. People show certain attributes at an early stage, go to a specific school based on qualifications or technical skills, and have a career path that will take them to the golf course. How can our business community change local perceptions? Educationalists should be able to say to children "Go to that technical school; go to that vocational school and you will still see the primrose path." It is not happening at the moment.
1794.
On the vocational side, Mr McCall, you talked about the shortage of programmers and technicians. I happen to have a very large hi-tech, state-of-the-art industry on my doorstep, and it has just announced more than 300 redundancies. How can I go to the local secondary school and encourage people to go along that route when they are still going to be faced with job insecurity?
1795.
Mr McCall: The rest of the industry in Northern Ireland breathed a huge sigh of relief when that happened because it is almost impossible to get that type of person. That particular company had cornered the market. I can assure you that none of those people will be without jobs.
1796.
Mr K Robinson: I hope you are correct about that.
1797.
Mr McCall: There is a large demand. When I talked about parity of esteem I included business as part of the community - and I still do. We have a large role to play. If you were to walk into our car park today and select three or four of the nicest cars in it, you would find that they belong to the workers and not the managers. That has not always been the case, but I think it will be more frequent now. There is great demand for this type of skill.
1798.
Northern Ireland has the opportunity to develop a strong economy. The economy is stronger now than it has been in my experience. This means that employers will have to take a greater interest in education. They will have to know how people are coming through the system and where they are going to get their resources. Employers did not have to do that in the past as unemployment was so high.
1799.
I believe that education is a matter of choice; parental choice and pupil choice, with good advice and support coming from teachers. In the short-term, people may not make the correct choices because of their preconceptions about education. However, it should still be down to choice. I feel that people will see that this is the best way for their children.
1800.
Ms Brown: Part of the enterprise insight initiative is about getting business people to talk to schoolchildren about their route through the education system. Not all business people will have passed the 11-plus and academic skills will not always be appropriate to their businesses. However, they can also be on the golf course when they are close to retirement age. I was in a chauffeur-driven car the other day, and the chauffeur was heading off to the golf course the following afternoon.
1801.
Mr Eric Bell: As Ms Lewsley said, the review of post-primary education is not concerned with only one thing. The IOD is therefore keen that the myriad elements are successfully pieced together. Parents do not want their children going down the mines because the mines are wet and dirty. The business world has to do away with dangerous, dirty workplaces. They are fewer now, but they have not been eliminated.
1802.
Employees in dot.com and knowledge-based businesses can come from any background; what is important is their ability to do the work. Business has to integrate more. It has got to engage in education. Some larger businesses are dissatisfied with how that is progressing so they are starting their own initiatives. It is not part of today's debate, but further education has a bigger part to play in how students get from secondary education to further education. How that relates to business is equally important.
1803.
The Chairperson: Due to time constraints I have to close our discussion. Thank you very much for your contribution and for the exchange of views.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 10 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Witnesses:
Prof T Bryce ) University of Strathclyde
Prof W Humes ) University of Strathclyde
Ms K Gillon MSP ) Scottish Parliament
Ms C Peattie MSP ) Scottish Parliament
1804.
The Chairperson: Good afternoon. We are very pleased to be, not in Northern Ireland today, but in Edinburgh, Scotland. We thank the Scottish Education, Culture and Sport Committee and its staff for assisting us in making this possible. We have a sense of the historic nature of this event. It is my understanding that this is the first time another Assembly has held a formal meeting within the precincts of the Scottish Parliament.
1805.
Ms Gillon: We are delighted to have you here. We know that you have been out and about looking at Scottish education, and we hope that you found that informative and useful. If there is anything else that we can do to be of assistance to the Committee, we will be more than happy to help. I hope that you find the further evidence sessions just as informative, and that you enjoy the rest of your visit to Scotland.
1806.
The Chairperson: I am pleased to welcome Prof Bryce and Prof Humes from the University of Strathclyde.
1807.
Prof Bryce: We are pleased to offer some information about Scottish comprehensive education and hope that we will be of some help to you.
1808.
You asked us why Scottish comprehensive education is perceived so positively, and whether that perception is accurate. In our judgement, it is. Our education system is positively perceived, for the most part, and has been for quite some time. In 1965, the existing model of junior and senior secondary was changed, for a variety of reasons. One reason is that, from the outset, there was a perception that a change to the senior secondary school model - mainly in terms of curriculum, but also structures - did not threaten obvious matters such as standards.
1809.
Prior to 1965, there were schools in the more rural parts of Scotland that had provided an "omnibus" function. The public was accustomed to viewing secondary schools as places where all the school population would go. Therefore, the setting up of local comprehensive secondaries was a relatively easy move in Scotland at that time.
1810.
We have tried to highlight in our submission how important it is for comprehensives to vary in their style and manner, because of the big differences in the catchment areas that they serve. Were you to go to the more affluent schools, or the less affluent ones in the cities, or the country schools, you would see differences between them, but, broadly speaking, the different populations that they serve are contented. In other words, although they may differ, they satisfy a lot of people, and that is important.
1811.
We are conscious that there have been changes to many of the schools since 1965, some having come up, some having gone down. In other words, factors such as the local economy, housing, and catchment areas directly affect schools, and that has happened in the past. All those economic factors, as well as straightforward educational factors, have led to schools changing. We can certainly think of schools that have risen to the top of the lists of schools that have been judged successful by achievements at Standard grade or Higher grade in the comprehensive system - a system that 95% of the population in Scotland are part of. Some have risen to the top of that list and, therefore, are justifiably well regarded. There are other schools that have not done so well, but we attribute that to economic factors rather than anything else.
1812.
Specialisation of comprehensive schools is a relatively recent phenomenon in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow, for example, where schools specialise in, for example, dance, music or sport. Our early judgement is that this is not changing greatly the generally positive view that people have of comprehensive schools. It is changing things slowly. We do not anticipate that those changes will alter in speed. It means that children are moving about a bit more, taking longer journeys to get to those schools in Glasgow that offer the specialisation that parents want to capitalise on.
1813.
A bigger shift has been caused by the legislation in the early 1980s that gave parents the right to choose secondary schools. That has caused more people to select a school that is not in their local area. However, such selection has not happened to a large extent. About 10% of the population go to a school other than the one in their immediate vicinity. It has affected primary/secondary school liaison a little, and we will return to that topic shortly. On the whole, it is a relatively successful story.
1814.
Prof Humes: One of the main concerns of any system contemplating a move from a process of selection to a comprehensive system is how pupils of different ability will be catered for. In Scotland, we have tried different modes of pupil grouping since 1965. Probably the dominant pattern has been mixed ability grouping in the first and second years of secondary school. Beyond that, in the third and fourth years, there has been a tendency towards setting, that is, grouping by ability within particular subjects rather than across all subjects. However, more recently there has been a tendency, arising from evidence from inspectorate reports, to move towards earlier setting, including setting in the first two years of secondary school - particularly the second year.
1815.
However, there are variations between subjects. English teachers and teachers of science tend to prefer mixed ability in years 1 and 2. Teachers of mathematics tend to prefer grouping by ability. There is an ongoing professional debate about the best means of arranging pupil groupings for teaching and learning purposes, and teachers' views are quite varied on the matter.
1816.
One of the key points I want to stress is that any switch to a comprehensive system should not be seen merely as a structural change. It is not simply a matter of operating in a different structural set-up. There are all sorts of other implications. There are implications for the nature of the curriculum, the resources that are used in teaching, the examination system and, not least, teacher development and opportunities for teachers to engage in development opportunities. If you move to a comprehensive system, it will not be a simple structural change; it has knock-on effects that will vary over time, and the debate will continue for quite a long time.
1817.
One of the features of educational reform in Scotland has been that change usually has taken longer than was anticipated. Comprehensivisation was introduced in 1965, and it was a long time before people felt that they were getting near a system that most people were comfortable with.
1818.
With regard to current issues arising from grouping of pupils and pupil performance, there are concerns about pupil achievement in the first and second years of secondary school, particularly the achievement of boys. That is not purely a Scottish phenomenon, it is an international phenomenon, and it has led, among other things, to pressures for earlier setting within subjects. It has also led to an attempt to challenge pupils more and to set them higher standards. The drive for standards has been one of the main policy objectives of the current Government.
1819.
The underachievement of pupils in post-primary years 1 and 2 also raises questions about the continuity between primary school and secondary school. The 5-14 development programme has been a major plank of the Government's strategy to drive up standards in Scotland. It has led to significant improvements across a range of subjects at primary schools. Evidence from inspectorate reports is that the secondary schools have benefited less from the 5-14 programme.
1820.
There are various ways of tackling that. Strenuous efforts have been made to improve communication between staff in primary schools and staff in secondary schools so that there is an attempt to build on the work that has been achieved by primary 7, rather than the old approach, which thought of pupils being given a fresh start in secondary school and did not take account of the work that had been done in primary school.
1821.
Our experience has been that mixed-ability grouping has worked in certain subject areas. In the lower secondary school there has been a drive to closely monitor the level of achievement that that pattern has allowed for. The official view now is that setting in most subjects should be introduced earlier rather than later, in the interests of ensuring continuity between primary and secondary and maintaining high standards.
1822.
With regard to the upper levels of secondary school, we have a Standard grade programme in S3 and S4 and we are introducing the "Higher Still" programme at S5 and S6. The most significant change in Scottish secondary education over the last decade has been the increasing number of students staying on beyond the statutory leaving age. Part of the reason for that has been the opportunities that the comprehensive system has allowed, which may not have been the same within a continued selective system.
1823.
Prof Bryce: Is the liaison between schools and industry and commerce being done well in Scotland? There are a number of different parts to that question. The most significant is the recent introduction of the "Higher Still" programme, which is revamping S5 and S6 - and on into the further education curriculum - to give a multi-level certificate arrangement. It is changing the content of many subjects, and it would be fair to say that several of them are taking on board more vocational elements. That is popular both within schools and beyond schools, and it is beginning to work.
1824.
The science subjects have been very careful to look to industrial needs and applications. Throughout the alterations to Standard grade courses, S3, S4 and the "Higher Still" courses, they are keen to supply a curriculum that will serve youngsters well when they move beyond school. It is not always sold under the label of vocational education, but it undoubtedly serves that purpose well.
1825.
The traditional home economics curriculum is being changed dramatically by what is now called "hospitality and care". The future vocations are the hotel and catering industries, where there is a great need. We come from Glasgow, well served by hotels, where they cry out for manpower - and womanpower - and they are getting it from the new kinds of courses that are taught. Those courses are quite different in character from what preceded them.
1826.
The curriculum is being made more vocational. Our judgement is that the extent and the balance of it are about right, and it is carrying professionals with it as a movement. When Standard grade was created in the 1980s, a course called "social and vocational skills" was created. The most recent reports by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools (HMI) show that about one in three schools in Scotland deliver that. There are about 3,000 pupils per year gaining Standard grades in social and vocational skills. That side of preparation for adult working life is served by that. Looked at another way, two out of three schools are not offering that course, and to that extent there is continued HMI pressure to consider whether more moves have to be made there.
1827.
Core skills are emphasised - those are the skills that are delivered by all subjects in the comprehensive secondary. Those are steadily moving forward. In our submission, we said that intelligence given to us suggests that there will be a significant political move in the next year to try to advance that further.
1828.
Week-long industrial placements for pupils in the fourth or fifth years are generally well received. Some are enthusiastically received both ways. It is difficult for us to make an overall comment on their effectiveness. The recent HMI report said that by 1998, of the catalogue of things then tackled by youngsters of that age, modules with placements were the most popular. Placements serve pupils well in that regard. Our modest and tentative judgement would be that the balance between general education and vocational education is about right, but it is still shifting more towards vocational education than has been the case.
1829.
Prof Humes: There are continuing challenges to the comprehensive system in Scotland. As in other countries, we face a gap between rich and poor as regards educational achievement. We have magnet schools and sink schools. We are not on the same scale as England, but England, in my view, is a very poor comparator in educational matters. We should not congratulate ourselves in comparison with English secondary education.
1830.
There are a number of reasons for that divergence. Obviously, there are issues to do with the economic state of different catchment areas and the extent to which parental choice is exercised. That has implications for other areas of social policy. It affects house prices, for instance, because of the attractions of particular areas. Houses are advertised as being in the catchment areas of certain schools. That emphasises the interrelationship of educational policy with other aspects of social policy.
1831.
With regard to the poverty question, it is interesting to note that some 20% of pupils in Scottish secondary schools are eligible for free school meals. In Glasgow, the percentage is over 40%. We continue to have a major issue of social inclusion to address in our secondary school system. Government policies are seeking to address that in various ways. One that may be of interest is the new community schools initiative, which seeks to provide, on the one site, educational provision linked to social work and health provision. It is an inter-agency approach, so that schooling is not seen in isolation. The early indications are that that is having some success, but it is rather early to judge. A number of those initiatives are still being evaluated.
1832.
One of the interesting side effects is that there are inter-professional rivalries between teachers, social workers and health workers. Professional protectionism comes into play, and it is as well to be alert to that. Another response to the question of differential performance has been, particularly in Glasgow, the setting up of specialist schools for music, dance and sport, et cetera.
1833.
The availability of these schools for people with a particular aptitude, talent or interest represents a small proportion of the total provision. Of course, an interesting logical question is whether, if that provision were made more extensive, it would actually undermine the basic comprehensive principle. It is an indication of the experimentation that is taking place in an attempt to get out of what has, perhaps, been seen as a uniform comprehensive model.
1834.
With the introduction of the "Higher Still" programme, the interface between the upper secondary school and the further education sector becomes quite challenging, because many of the "Higher Still" courses can be taken in the further education sector. The experience in some parts of England has been that senior pupils prefer to go to further education colleges rather than secondary schools, partly because of the perception that further education is more informal, more relaxed, and less concerned with control and discipline.
1835.
In Scotland, there are arrangements between some secondary schools and some further education colleges that allow pupils to be based in the school, but to go to the further education college for certain courses. As yet, provision in the further education sector has not seriously challenged the notion of the all-through comprehensive school from 11 to 18. If the pattern were to develop further, it may be that the notion of the 11-18 school, which has not been questioned for a very long time, may become an item for further scrutiny and debate.
1836.
To make a comprehensive system work, you have to take the teachers with you. That reinforces for me the importance of getting initial training and, not least, opportunities for continuing professional development right. The McCrone Report on the future of the teaching profession in Scotland was published last year. One of the major recommendations in the report was that the range of continuing professional development opportunities available to teachers should be substantially increased. We are developing a framework for such opportunities.
1837.
It will be a year or two before it is fully in place. However, it seems to me that any system contemplating major change that will impact on curriculum, on teaching and on learning methods, has to ensure that teachers are not simply presented with a fait accompli and told to adjust. There has to be plenty of scope for thinking, discussion and development, and an opportunity to try out new ways.
1838.
The Chairperson: One of the criticisms of the comprehensive system is that it does not appear to stretch those who are more academically able. Do you have any comment on that, or does your experience indicate that that is not the case?
1839.
Prof Bryce: One of the things that lay behind what I said about comprehensives varying a lot is a reflection of that. In other words, a stable middle-class catchment area without a loss of bright pupils to private schooling would have a wide range of ability, which the school - we can think of plenty of instances - serves well by stretching them, as well as providing a wide curriculum. The problem that you are describing arises in areas where, by the circumstances of catchment area and other alternatives, the school may be deprived of a wide range of pupils, may have to modify its curriculum and may, as a casualty of that, result in perceived non-stretching.
1840.
In our submission, we said that those who choose to opt out of the system - a very small 5% - often do so for reasons of family tradition, rather than perceptions that that will be a better education. Of course, there are instances where it will be a better education, but the evidence is not strong enough to say that there is no stretching going on.
1841.
Top of the league last year, or the year before, was a comprehensive school, as it happens, on the south side of Glasgow. It is a nice suburban area where the catchment area has changed enormously from what it was 20, 30, 40 years ago due to what has been built around about it. Once upon a time it was not an all-through six-year comprehensive school, but it now is and is serving well. There are instances to counter your fear, which need to take into account other factors - financially and, most of all, in the community.
1842.
Prof Humes: It has been the case in the past that some pupils have not been sufficiently stretched, and that accounts for some of the concerns about S1 and S2 achievement. It is important to address that question in relation to your overall aims for secondary education. A selective system operates on the assumption that there is a limited pool of ability, and you work very hard with that limited pool and stretch them as far as possible.
1843.
A comprehensive system challenges the idea that there is a limited pool of ability. The aim of a comprehensive system is to increase the general level of achievement of all pupils. That is a big issue of social policy: what purpose are you expecting your secondary system to serve? Are you interested in a minority - an elite - who will achieve very high academic standards, perhaps at the expense of the majority who will not? Or, are you interested, either because of basic political, ideological or social beliefs, or perhaps because of the nature and needs of the economy, in pushing as many pupils as possible to a good general level of education? That is a big political decision for people like yourselves, and it is not an easy one if you are contemplating a major change.
1844.
Ms Lewsley: How have teachers reacted to the McCrone Report? In your submission, you say that
"In short, our personal view is that teaching won't attract teachers in the numbers required as a result of this McCrone settlement."
1845.
Are there plans to offer any incentives to school leavers or graduates to enter the teaching profession? As it is, fewer males are entering the teaching profession. Can you outline the main difference in approaches to teacher training in Scotland? Is it more college-based? What about the training?
1846.
Prof Humes: There are various routes into teaching. I will concentrate on secondary teaching. The principal route for graduates is through the one-year post-graduate course. Teachers train to qualify in one, or possibly two, subjects in the secondary school. A large part of that year is spent on placement in schools. There are usually two or three block placements - it varies slightly from one faculty of education to another. A significant part of the course is spent working with experienced teachers in schools. There are also blocks spent in university faculties or, as in one remaining case, a college of education.
1847.
The courses that are provided there have to be consistent with guidelines issued by the Scottish Executive Education Department. I understand that you have already met HM Senior Chief Inspector of Schools, Douglas Osler, so you may have heard something about it from him.
1848.
The model is essentially a competence model of training. Partly because of the age profile of the existing teaching force, we are seeking to recruit increased numbers of teachers, particularly in the primary sector, but also to some extent in the secondary sector. There is an ongoing debate about the best method of training teachers. Both Prof Bryce and myself have enjoyed robust exchanges with members of the inspectorate on the pattern that currently prevails. My own personal view is that the competence model is too narrow and prescriptive and does not encourage innovation and creativity among teachers.
1849.
The financial settlement brought about by McCrone will probably attract more good-quality teachers than we have been able to in the past, but it will depend on the professional climate in schools changing somewhat. If the continuing professional development opportunities are seen as simply going through approved hoops and conforming to the currently favoured policies, rather than giving teachers a chance to think and debate about their own professional values and ideas, there will probably be some resistance. That debate is still taking place and those of us who have an opportunity to contribute to it are certainly not allowing that opportunity to pass.
1850.
Mrs E Bell: We came over here to look at the system here theoretically, and we have also just been to a school were we saw it in practice. We came over to see alternatives to our current system, which in primary involves a test and results of an exam that labels children as either failures or successes. We see that as something that needs to be looked at.
1851.
You said that the comprehensive system has been positively perceived, and we have been told over the last couple of days that the teachers and the inspectorate all see it as a successful system. You talked about the tensions of mixed-ability classes and the concerns about setting. Are you happy that all pupils can be equally dealt with by this system? For instance, can children with special educational needs and those with dyslexia and hearing difficulties all be accommodated within this general comprehensive system?
1852.
Prof Humes mentioned children from disadvantaged areas. We have a system called "targeting social need," which is based on free school meals, and we and the practitioners and teachers have found that it is a less than ideal rule of thumb. I am throwing all those issues in, and you have both obviously studied them, so I want to know how you both feel. Do you think that we still can learn from your system and perhaps adapt it to whatever we come up with?
1853.
Prof Humes: I certainly do not think that we have solved all of those problems in a way that we can be satisfied with. There has been a trend towards putting children with special needs into the mainstream of the secondary system. That can work where it is well thought out and the teachers are equipped to deal with it, but there must be a fallback position. There must be an opportunity to withdraw children with any type of special needs if they are encountering difficulties. It might be a temporary withdrawal, and then a return to mainstream provision. To imagine that they can simply be put into the normal classes, without additional support and without the teachers adapting their teaching styles to meet the needs of the children, is an illusion.
1854.
We are still working through those difficulties. If we subscribe to a social inclusion principle, then we must find a way of avoiding stigmatising children, whatever grouping they belong to. One of the main arguments in favour of a comprehensive system is that it is an expression of a set of social principles, such as equality of opportunity, justice and social unity. If we really believe in those principles, we must find ways of making them work. That will involve experimenting and operating a variety of schemes. We certainly will not get it right first time. We have gone some way down the road, and we have had some success, but, for the reasons that you cite, there are still a host of educational problems to be addressed.
1855.
Prof Bryce: A commitment to "mainstreaming" - to use the jargon - more pupils, including more pupils with special needs, in mainstream comprehensive secondary schools must be seen as probably involving differential resourcing, not uniformity. I can think of specific instances of that south of Glasgow. I can think of a particular secondary school - a very large one - that specialises in pupils with visual handicaps of all sorts. That school is specially resourced by its local authority, and is applauded for all that it does. In all the subjects, you see special apparatus and equipment that pupils use. The school is, in that sense, a magnet secondary school for pupils with those difficulties. I do not know the ins and outs of it, but it must be resourced differently from the next secondary school.
1856.
Experimentation also means other things, such as commitment to trying out different forms of relationships, for example, between existing special schools and the local secondary, if they cannot be put together in a meaningful way. It is important to look at the issue with an emphasis on diversity and variety, not to say that all schools should be for everyone in a simplistic and simplistically resourced way.
1857.
Mrs E Bell: And so you talk about flexibility in the comprehensive system?
1858.
Prof Bryce: Yes. Flexibility and differential resourcing to bring that about.
1859.
Mr McHugh: During our visit we have gained a lot of knowledge to help us make up our minds about the system that would serve our needs. You mentioned social inclusion and the fact that there are areas with 40% of pupils on school meals. It is still an indicator, even though in some instances children actually refuse to go for free school meals because of the stigma attached to it. Therefore, it could be an even greater percentage than that.
1860.
We currently have a system of selection that deems that up to 70% of pupils are failures at the age of 11. That is unjust. We are working with an unfair system. We are looking for a system that will address the future needs of our children in reaching the highest levels of attainment for their future in the new workplace and also in their personal development and achievements. Can your comprehensive, all-through system work as a model for us to move towards?
1861.
Prof Humes: I hesitate to offer our system as a model. Any educational system is deeply rooted in its own traditions, history and culture. Any system has to find its own solution to the particular problems and issues that it faces. Looking at other systems can prompt reflection and give ideas, but it is misleading to imagine that they can be transplanted directly and simply into another system. Because of all the cultural and historical forces at work, they will be transformed in the transplanting.
1862.
The introduction to your question resonates very strongly with our experience in Scotland. When we had a senior and junior secondary system, although we did not write off as many as 70%, there certainly was a perception that the junior secondary system represented failure. It was perceived as such by pupils and parents. One of the lessons of the comprehensive system is that many pupils, previously stigmatised as failures, are shown to be capable of quite significant achievements. The pattern of examination performance in Scotland reinforces that.
1863.
People have deep-rooted beliefs have about the pool of ability in a society. Our experience in Scotland has been that there is not a small, narrow pool of ability. Many more pupils are capable of significant achievement - not necessarily the highest achievement, but significant achievement - if they are given the opportunity.
1864.
Mr McHugh: We have also learned that in some instances the levels of attainment through this system have increased threefold against the previous system. You said that it took 10 years to lead into this system. Could we move to a system in less time than that?
1865.
Prof Bryce: Curriculum and assessment arrangements have to be taken on with school organisation, in a system sense. What you are referring to in Scotland is also about the shift from O-levels to the present Standard grades, which took a very long time. An important part of that shift was that, at the time, O-levels were tackled by 40-45% of the population. The rest were deemed to be "non-certificated". Creating Standard grades to span the whole ability range, and pegging it so that it matched in to where O-levels were for the more able children, let a system evolve.
1866.
As a result, over the past decade we have seen an increase in the number of pupils achieving Standard grades - and it is remarkably high. It is a correct boast, or claim, to say that it has been effective. What that has done is defer the decision on who is capable of getting there until later, rather than earlier. That does not make things easy at a stroke, but the later decision-making has been a key part. As long as the teaching profession was not destabilised about standards at the time when O-levels switched to Standard grades, which it was not, we then had a movement which began to work for a greater part of the population. The success story is shown in those figures.
1867.
Now to your hard question: could you do it faster than we did? I am scared of the answer to that. Things move awfully slowly in education, for really pretty good reasons.
1868.
Mr McElduff: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks also to Prof Bryce and Prof Humes. We are all very pleased to be here to monitor the Scottish system at first hand.
1869.
Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh. Ba mhaith liom fosta mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an ollamh Bryce agus leis an ollamh Humes as labhairt linn. Tá áthas an domhain orm bheith anseo chun stáidear a dhéanamh ar an chóras oideachais sa tír seo.
1870.
I have two questions. First, almost 30 years after the introduction of comprehensive education here, is there a strong, vocal grammar lobby in Edinburgh or in Scotland generally? If so, how strong is it, and where sits this particular debate at the minute, if there is such a debate?
1871.
Secondly, and this may be an overstatement of a common argument against the comprehensive system - and we have seen very many positive aspects of it here - people have said that it effectively replaces apartheid by academic ability with social apartheid. That has been said - it is probably too harsh, but that is what some critics have said.
1872.
Prof Humes: As far as I am aware, there is no real lobby in Scotland pushing for a return to a selective system. It is perhaps worth saying, however, that in Edinburgh there is a significant independent sector, the existence of which would be stoutly defended should there be any threat to it. There is no indication that there is a threat to it.
1873.
That is not to suggest that parents are entirely happy with every aspect of comprehensive education. In particular localities you would encounter criticisms, but in general there is no real campaigning group calling for the return of selective secondary schools. That is the difference between Scotland and England, where the argument about grammar schools is voiced more frequently and more forcefully.
1874.
Prof Bryce: It is worth hanging on to the important statistic that I quoted earlier, and that is that 90% of families still send their children to their local comprehensive secondary school. That must mean that 10% choose, because of some disapproval or disliking of the immediately available comprehensive, to send their children somewhere else or to move house. Of course there is some movement of that kind. That would always apply, irrespective of the precise nature of the system. Ninety per cent is a high figure, which must surely mean that there is a large amount of contentment.
1875.
To go back to a point we opened on, there are comprehensives and there are comprehensives. They vary quite a bit, and where you to go to one in a poor, disadvantaged area with a high unemployment record, you would be upset by that, compared to one in a flourishing leafy suburb. We all are. Many of these things are beyond education alone to control, as you well know.
1876.
The Chairperson: What is the nature of the new community schools? Have you been able to assess any of the data on their impact? Also, has the Scottish Parliament been reluctant in some way to fund these schools? I am conscious that we are in the Scottish Parliament, and I would not want to be led away by the Serjeant-at-Arms, or anything like that.
1877.
Prof Bryce: It is genuinely too early to come to a conclusion on that. Those schools have only been in place and expanding in numbers over the last two sessions or so. They have been set up by appointing managers from different professions. For example, in one the manager may be a teacher and in another a community educator or someone from social work.
1878.
There are different attempts to glue together the work of the differing professions who share the problems. It is a new movement that will require a lot of work on professional working, which we do not know a lot about yet. That is a fair thing, and not a bad thing, to say. We do not know how inter-professional working can be put to best advantage in relation to kids' needs. We need to see that in more real settings. In other words, we need to see the 20-odd that launched it a few years ago go up into hundreds in order to know whether, when you check the model across a variety of settings, it still holds good. We need more research and more evidence. That will take a little longer.
1879.
Prof Humes: If the evidence points to a significant success, one of the immediate implications would be the introduction of inter-professional training for teachers, so that elements of their training would take place alongside social workers, health workers and perhaps other professionals as well. It seems unreasonable to train people narrowly as teachers and then put them in a system where they are expected to engage in inter-professional co-operation.
1880.
The Chairperson: Have you any comment on the Scottish Parliament being reluctant to fund that?
1881.
Prof Bryce: What we meant in our submission was that we see that it will require it. We do not detect reluctance yet. We are just fearful and trying to give a push to say that it is worthy of further investment. We are making a political point of our own, and it is not a reaction to anything that we have noticed or read.
1882.
The Chairperson: That concludes this session. Thank you.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 10 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Witnesses:
Prof P Munn) University of Edinburgh
1883.
The Chairperson: Welcome Prof Munn, and thank you for attending.
1884.
Prof Munn: It is my pleasure. I have prepared a paper for the Committee and I will briefly go through that, re-emphasising one or two points made by Prof Bryce and Prof Humes. Perhaps the most important point is that no education system can be lifted from one country and planted in another. Education systems are part of a country's history, culture and tradition. Whatever you may have found here you will not be able to transplant it without problems. There are things that you can do, but these will change inevitably as policy and practice start to bed down.
1885.
I want to begin by evidence by summarising the answer I gave to the first question sent to me by the Committee. I was asked why comprehensive education has been apparently regarded more positively in Scotland than in England and Wales.
1886.
There are three main points. First, there has been a tradition of omnibus schools in Scotland, particularly outside of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee. The difference within cities is a recurring theme. I would like to come back to it because it may be directly relevant to you. Omnibus comprehensives took in all children - although they were streamed. There has been confidence in the success of the system.
1887.
Secondly, levels of achievement have been raised. For instance, in 1998-99, 91% of pupils in S4 gained five or more standard grades, and 34% gained five or more standard grades at credit level. There has been stability in the numbers achieving three or more Highers - which is the baseline entry qualification for higher education - at 23%. Thirty-two per cent of school leavers enter higher education directly, and 19% enter further education. Therefore most parents' practical experience of the Scottish comprehensive system is that it provides their children with qualifications that then do something for them. That is important.
1888.
The figures I have quoted are averages and as such they conceal quite wide variations. For example, Glasgow City has the lowest percentage entering higher education straight from school. It also has the lowest percentage gaining Highers. Glasgow is also one of our main sources of poverty and deprivation. However, there has been confidence in the secondary school system.
1889.
Thirdly, there has been sustained confidence in teachers as competent and successful professionals. There has been no real anti-teacher campaign in Scotland the way there has been in England and Wales. There has been no policy of naming and shaming failing schools. Trust in the professional expertise of teachers is still high. In my paper to the Committee, I outline the importance of education as a marker of Scottish national identity. I am not going to talk about that today but I would be happy to answer any questions that you have on the topic.
1890.
There is an issue concerning the effectiveness of the use of banding and setting in schools, and you were asking Professor Bryce and Professor Humes about that. It is hard to answer that question simply; practice varies quite a lot. There used to be no examples of banding or setting in primary schools, but that is beginning to change. There are now some primary schools - particularly at the upper levels - where children are being banded into Maths and English sets.
1891.
Practice also varies in secondary schools. There is an argument that because of our five to 14 curriculum, secondary schools should have good information on the attainments of the children coming to them. Therefore they should resist the temptation to think about a fresh start in secondary, and should band children early. That has been resisted in most schools.
1892.
Most banding takes place in third and fourth years of secondary school. There is no streaming in any secondary schools, as far as I am aware. There was a substantial report by Her Majesty's Inspectors (HMI) on that, and it might be useful for you to have a look at it.
1893.
The Committee asked about the success of the community comprehensive system, and for comments on the incidence of pupils' not choosing less popular comprehensives. I will not labour the point - you have heard it already. Generally, the community comprehensives are regarded as successful. The big question for me is whether that applies in cities, where there is real choice of schools. In large parts of Scotland there is no real choice, particularly of secondary schools. There is only really one secondary school, unless we wish to invest huge sums in transporting children all around the country.
1894.
As regards parents choosing where to send their children, I know that Prof Bryce said that 90% of parents chose the local comprehensive. I have had quick look at the figures for 1997-98, which are the latest available, and there were 31,500 placing requests in that year. That might give you something of a flavour of how local authorities are administering that aspect. Twenty thousand of those requests related to primary schools, and around 11,000 to secondary. Most of them were granted, but there is a wide range. For example, a very tiny proportion of placing requests was made in Argyle and Bute, which is a rural area Over 2,500 placing requests were, however, made in Glasgow.
1895.
The Committee asked about the approach to vocational education and training in Scotland, the extent to which schools and industry liaise, and how effective the relationship is. Vocational education and training is not my area of expertise. In my paper I tried to set out the main issues straightforwardly. There has always been a concern about parity of esteem between vocational qualifications and more traditional academic qualifications. Our attempt to overcome that has been the introduction of the Higher Still Curriculum. This is at a very early stage, and we do not yet know how successful it is going to be or how ready universities are going to be to accept vocational-type qualifications, but it is an attempt.
1896.
There is a flourishing further education sector which provides a wide range of courses, from degree level equivalents, HNCs and HNDs to lower level vocational qualifications. Somebody with a HNC or HND can usually move into Year 2 - or sometimes even into Year 3 - of a university course. There is quite a lot of articulation between schools in further education and higher education.
1897.
I mentioned work experience as a common feature for all pupils. Something else I should perhaps raise, which I did not mention in the paper, is that we have two schemes - school seekers and modern apprenticeships - which you may already have come across. These are designed primarily for 16 to 17 year-olds, and they are a work-based approach to getting qualifications.
1898.
The Committee asked if I believed that there is a higher degree of social inclusion in the Scottish education system than in other systems in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?" I tried to answer that question in two ways. First, if we look at the provision of common schools as an indicator, it is encouraging in terms of structural provision, which promotes social inclusion. The independent sector is very small - fewer than 4% of all pupils attend independent schools. There are variations in that figure depending on particular parts of the country. It is reckoned that about 25% of pupils who might go to Edinburgh secondary schools go to the independent sector. The proportion of pupils in special schools remains steady. If time allows, I would like to come back to the important question that was raised about whether comprehensives can cater for every child.
1899.
In terms of provision, curriculum, and types of school, Scotland is more socially inclusive. However, if you lift the lid on provision and look at the actual practice, there are things to be concerned about. My work is on exclusion from school. There is concern about the numbers of young people being excluded, the fact that boys are four times more likely to be excluded, and about the underachievement of boys. If we look at practices, Scotland is similar to other parts of the UK. There is an interesting question there about the relationship between structure and practice.
1900.
The Committee asked if there is any evidence of concern on the part of teachers, higher and further education institutions and employers regarding the introduction of the new 'Higher Still' exams. The short answer is, yes. There is concern on the conceptual aspect - whether it is right to chunk knowledge into modules and blocks. There has been debate about that. There has also been concern, particularly from teachers, about the claimed over-assessment of children in their fifth year. As you will know, there has been huge concern about the administration of the public examination system. That has been very damaging to the reputation of Scottish education. One has to have an exam system in which there is public confidence - that goes without saying. Part of the problem has been the attempt to combine the schools' internal assessment with the external assessment. We are all hoping that they have got it right this time.
1901.
Lastly, the Committee asked what I would identify as the main challenges. I would not change what I put in my paper. The curriculum is overcrowded. It is dominated by subject specialisms, and to me these look increasingly out of date, given the rapid expansion of knowledge that there is in the modern world. There is concern about initial teacher education - you have already heard that from my colleagues - and the continuous professional development of teachers.
1902.
There is serious consideration of ICT. We have had a huge Government drive to introduce computers into classrooms. However, teachers have been remarkably reluctant to use them. We have not thought through the types of issues raised by ready access to the Internet. For example, do we need schools when we can get access to knowledge and information in other ways? That issue has not really been debated yet.
1903.
The last point is the underachievement of boys. If I were to add anything else to my paper it would be that there is too much concern with assessment.
1904.
The Chairperson: Thank you, that was an excellent presentation.
1905.
Mrs Bell: You said that one of the concerns is too much assessment. We looked at that issue and said that it is about testing rather than assessment. Our children are tested rather than assessed and that is one of the strengths. We had great problems in that our system - as all systems do - had trouble catering for children with special educational needs and those in disadvantaged areas. We have considered a number of items. I am encouraged that Scotland has gone through its own transitional review mode with the 'Higher Still' programme for children who have abilities. However, do you think that that system could treat pupils equally - especially children with special educational needs? Today, we visited a school comprising about 800 pupils. I would be wary about placing children with special educational needs in a school of that size until I knew that the support was sufficient. I am not running anyone down but I am concerned about this matter.
1906.
Prof Munn: You are right to be concerned. There are many stories going around. Children with severe and profound handicaps could be catered for in schools that are well resourced with well-trained teachers and specialist help. However resourcing is a large issue. The presence of children with all kinds of disabilities can have a beneficial effect on school ethos; other children can learn to be more tolerant and accepting.
1907.
It is important that children with severe special needs experience a sense of dignity and belonging. That can happen in different ways. It is interesting that the percentage of children in special schools has not changed much over the last three or four years - it is just under 2%. There has been a debate about whether special schools should be abolished. It has been, in my opinion rightly, resisted.
1908.
Mrs Bell: How do the units operate?
1909.
Prof Munn: There are different kinds of units. Some specialise in catering for deaf pupils: some in behaviour support, and others in teaching visually impaired pupils. There has also been an extensive programme of physical improvement to school buildings to make them more accessible to children in wheelchairs.
1910.
A theme that runs through comprehensive education is that a lot depends on the beliefs and expectations of teachers. The belief that somebody with special needs is inherently less worthy in some way or cannot attain, can transmit itself. Someone asked whether the system could move quickly. There is a hearts-and-minds question involved. If you can benchmark standards, as Prof Bryce said, that is helpful - it puts some stability into the system. However, if you are trying to change from a system that is based on the belief that you and I have an innate ability that we can accurately measure at 11 and that is it then that is a different matter.
1911.
You would be trying to change from that system into one that says that our ability is not fixed; that it develops and does so at different rates; that there are different kinds of abilities, and that those ought to be celebrated. Unless people really believe that, the change cannot happen quickly. A huge public relations job is necessary to convince teachers.
1912.
Mr McHugh: You said that you could not uproot one system and set it into another. Although that is true, our aims and objectives - which are to find an alternative to our current system that deems that children are failures at 10-plus - are not far removed from your system. Yours is one of the better models that we have examined.
1913.
Prof Munn: Good. One does not want to come over as saying that we have got it all solved - we certainly have not. There are certain similarities between Northern Ireland and Scotland that may help. There are issues about how you design the curriculum, and what kind of assessment system that you will have. You can see the principles on which the Scottish system was established. It might be that those principles can be translated into the Northern Ireland context. How those principles are worked out and enacted in schools might be different.
1914.
Mr McHugh: It might be harder to sell them.
1915.
Mr McElduff: Thank you. Go raibh maith agaibh arís. When I showed my sister, Ciara, the itinerary for our visit, she said that I had to tell you that she regularly quotes your arguments on topics such as bullying in her assignments.
1916.
My question relates to the first item that you addressed in your paper. Why is there such high regard for teachers in Scotland? That is perhaps distinct from other countries, systems or societies in which teachers do not enjoy such confidence.
1917.
Prof Munn: First, there is our system of training. We have had an all-graduate profession for a long time, and that is different from the situation in England. As well as the post-graduate secondary route that Prof Humes talked about, we have a post-graduate primary route, and we have a four-year B.Ed. that is equivalent to an honours degree. Entry standards are quite high, therefore teachers are seen as academically well equipped.
1918.
Secondly, the system has resulted in success, and there are a lot of people in Scottish education from humble backgrounds who have benefited from the education system and from good teaching. That reinforces itself and trickles down. Those are the two main reasons. There is a tradition of the local dominie in villages being a figure of respect, so there is also that historical link.
1919.
Ms Lewsley: One of the issues for us is that because of our system, we find that we are league driven. Although we have a high standard of academic achievement, we also have a high number of underachievers. As in your case, most of those are boys. One of the reasons for boys underachieving in Scotland was that they seemed to be doing quite well until they left primary school. The transition - the S1 and S2 years - seemed to cause them more difficulty. What types of programmes have you put in place to try to alleviate that? Have you found any reasons for such underachievement?
1920.
Prof Munn: The problem first manifests itself in the S1 and S2 stages. Part of the reason is cultural and is to do with male identity. Society is undergoing quite a change in the way in which we think about men and women and their roles.
1921.
In the early stages of secondary school, it is not "cool" to be studious or to achieve. My personal view is that there are a lot of unfortunate role models around, where the aspiration is to be a footballer or a snooker player. That you do not need to be educated is also evident. There are things are being tried. Buddy schemes, for example, are in operation where older boys "buddy" younger boys to try to ease them into school and good work habits.
1922.
Almost all our schools are co-educational - there is only one that is single sex. Some schools have experimented with boys-only classes for maths or science. Again, it is too early to say whether those have been successful.
1923.
The Chairperson: We are almost at the conclusion. What evidence is there to indicate that children from poorer social and economic backgrounds are equally served by the Scottish education system? One of the potential problems with the current system is that in classes of all abilities, a teacher must teach to the middle of the class. Therefore those at either extreme, either the less academically able or the more academically able, lose out as a result of that. Have you any comments on that?
1924.
Prof Munn: I will take the second point first because it is very important. Recognising that validity of that point, we have been developing personal learning plans, where children's learning needs and their development over particular units of time are mapped out. That is a development from something that is quite common in special education, which is an individual learning plan (ILP).
1925.
We know a lot more now about how to differentiate in classrooms. The traditional model of one teacher teaching 30 children does, of course, take place, but there are also, to a limited extent, other ways of teaching - group work and ICT, for example. There is certainly a concern that in some schools that you can get death by 1000 worksheets, that children go from one lesson to another to another and they only do worksheets. One answer is to encourage greater differentiation and to "skill up" teachers to feel comfortable with that, so that a mixed pedagogy and range of methods is used.
1926.
On the first point, the evidence lies in the attainment statistics and in the progression to further and higher education. We still know that children from social classes D and E are underrepresented in higher education. That is partly because of entry qualifications, but it is also because of fees and grant structure. That, again, is something that we are trying to tackle.
1927.
The Chairperson: That concludes the public session. I thank Prof Munn and our earlier contributors. It has been extremely useful. As Chairperson of the Education Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly, I feel that it was extremely timely and useful that we came at this time. We thank all of those people who have assisted us in considering these important matters.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 17 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Gibson
Mr Hamilton
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Witnesses:
Mr Gavin Boyd ) Council for the Curriculum,
Dr Alan Lennon ) Examinations and Assessment
1928.
The Chairperson: Good morning. The Committee welcomes representatives of the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA), Mr Boyd, the chief executive, and Dr Lennon, the chairman. They will give evidence on the review of post-primary education.
1929.
We look forward to the presentation and an exchange of views of views afterwards.
1930.
Dr Lennon: Members may be relieved that we will not give a stand-up, formal presentation. We will give a short introduction, and I will give an insight into the origin of the paper. Mr Boyd will pick out the key points, and that will give the Committee time for questions and discussion.
1931.
The CCEA exists to advise the Department of Education, deliver and regulate examinations and develop aspects of the curriculum in Northern Ireland.
1932.
The term "council" is used in the public domain to describe the whole organisation, consisting of 200 staff and a 19-person management board. However, the term "council" really refers to the 19-person management board, and the other 200 people I describe as officers. I just want to get the description right, because I will make reference to those who were involved in the review.
1933.
The council operates through three sub-committees, two education and one business, chaired by council members. The council members come from varied backgrounds. For example, there are six teachers, two teachers' union representatives, three representatives from further and higher education, seven from business and industry or formerly so, one from an education and library board, one from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), one from the Department of Education and one from the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. It is a disparate group.
1934.
To tackle the post-primary review in the timescale allotted to us, I set up and chaired an ad hoc sub-committee. That included the senior officers of the council and eight council members representing primary, secondary, grammar, special needs, business and further education, a representative group. The sub-committee spent at least 20 hours on meetings and intense discussions in a constrained time frame. The recommendations were discussed at two further meetings of the full council and were then passed. - [Interruption.]
1935.
The Chairperson: Mobile telephones must be switched off.
1936.
Mr Lennon: The document has undergone a number of revisions and is owned by all the council members. I hope that it is not a camel as a result of that. We had a flying start, as this comes after a long-standing curriculum review in which the council was involved, so we were not caught completely cold by the need to deal with the matter. The document seeks to recognise the undoubted strength of education here, but it recognises that the world has changed and it is time to move on. In a realistic, measured and sustainable way we must deal with the changing needs of individuals, society and the economy.
1937.
Mr Boyd: I have copies of slides that we would have used for a more formal presentation, and I will be happy to distribute them to members. In my 20-year career in business, I never experienced such a difficult management exercise as the chairman had to cope with in managing our submission to the post-primary review body. We had many disparate interests, and he went out his way to ensure that they were all represented in the working party. Part of the discipline imposed on us was that we had to set to one side our ideological views to look at the practicalities of the situation and fit that into the context of the curriculum review, which focuses on outcomes. We wanted to make sure that our education system, which is acknowledged to be excellent in many respects, is doing the job for our young people.
1938.
I had a conversation a couple of days ago with the vice-president of Bombardier, who is responsible for human resources. He is a French Canadian. He moved to Northern Ireland two years ago with his young family, and one of his sons moved into a P7 class. That young boy had enormous difficulty settling into our education system. The standard of the Canadian education system that he came from is nothing like the standard of Northern Ireland's. It has taken him two years to get up to speed with what is going on in our schools.
1939.
Then, with his human resources hat on, the vice-president of Bombardier told me that Bombardier tried to recruit 1,000 people last year as it was expanding its operations, but that it had difficulty getting 1,000 people with the skills required for a world-class aerospace operation.
1940.
Therein lies some of the challenges that we face. On the one hand we have an education system that is renowned throughout the world for many of its achievements, and on the other hand we cannot provide all that employers are looking for, and the world is moving on rapidly.
1941.
A lot of CCEA's submission focuses on the importance of the curriculum and the curriculum review. That should not be a surprise as CCEA is a curriculum organisation. CCEA needs to decide what is required from our education system, and having identified what the outcomes should be, the structures for an education system geared to bringing those outcomes about should follow. That is a matter of principle for CCEA. The structures should not be decided first; structures should be decided after the desired outcomes have been identified.
1942.
The theory behind the curriculum review and the work going on take into account the fundamental changes in society and the economy, and they are firmly focused on the individual. The development of a young person as an individual, as a member of society, as a contributor to the economy and as a custodian of the environment has to be considered. It is very much competence-led and skills-led rather than knowledge based.
1943.
Paragraph 3·11 of CCEA's submission contained a quote from a paper prepared by the Royal Society of Arts (RSA). It stated
"If we are to transform education so as to serve the needs of the future, a new strategy must be found. The reforms of the recent years have focused largely on standards and structures. These are important - standards especially; but they have almost nothing to say about whether the system can help students become more capable of meeting the more complex demands that will be made of them in the future.
The RSA believes that real transformation can only be secured if we are clear what it is that students need to learn, that is what purpose education should serve. Reforming the curriculum so that it is competence-led, instead of information-led, is we believe the most effective strategy for doing this."
1944.
CCEA is firmly focused on what it expects to get out of the system. If we are to persuade people that there is real benefit in changing structures, we need to be able to predict reasonably well that we are going to get better outcomes. We know the current strengths and weaknesses. If there is going to be significant change, we need to be able to demonstrate in advance what the benefits of that are going to be and what the potential pitfalls are.
1945.
Anything that CCEA does will have a significant impact on the practitioners and teacher training. We feel the same about structures as we do about the curriculum review. However, we cannot drop new ideas on top of teachers without training, support or guidance and without being able to show that any proposed changes will have benefits all round.
1946.
There are also non-educational issues that need to be considered, and society is demanding that they be considered - issues of social deprivation and social exclusion. Members will be aware of the high correlation between social factors and educational outcomes and the high correlation between poor educational outcomes and poor social background.
1947.
Education has a role to play in developing society. You will have heard this from CCEA. That is why we place great emphasis on the development of early-years provision. One recurring theme in our discussions was that the transfer test does not cause social deprivation, but it may well be a symptom of it. If we seriously wish to deal with social deprivation through education, we must target any problems as soon as young people come into contact with education.
1948.
We must also identify the causes of underachievement of individuals and schools. Again this feeds through into curriculum development, and there must be widespread consultation and consensus with everything. Key issues arise from the curriculum review such as early-years provision, primary education, Key Stage 3 and Key Stage 4 qualifications and further and higher education. We say that there is likely to be continual change and much wider provision.
1949.
Vocational and academic qualifications should be much more widely available. We reject the German model of an academic stream and a vocational stream. Vocational qualifications should have the same status and value as academic qualifications for the development of individuals and the development of our economy. There are no more obvious vocations than medicine or the law, but for some reason society puts those to one side. We need much wider provision for vocational and academic qualifications. There is no reason for academic excellence to be the preserve of any group. We should encourage the brightest and best with a full range of educational provision.
1950.
Part of CCEA's discussions focused on the transfer test and why it was such a high stakes issue. We concluded that high stakes are involved because young people and, particularly, parents do not feel that the choices available are equal choices. They feel that the grammar school option is more acceptable than the secondary school option. This may well be ill-informed, but this is causing the high stakes element. The transfer test has, quite rightly, been subject to a lot of criticism. There are no defenders of the transfer test in CCEA in spite of the fact that we prepare the questions and run the tests. Some ill-informed comments have been made. The test is quite good and works very well, but there are real problems with grading, and grade reliability has been criticised. It is poor because the test is relatively easy. Generally, young people get very high marks - 25% of young people who got grade As in this year's test achieved at least 85%.
1951.
Young people achieve high marks; it is quite conceivable that someone who got a grade D this year got approximately 75%. The 5% of young people who ended up in category B1 were separated by less than 2% in the test. This is where the serious issue of grade unreliability arises.
1952.
We feel strongly that all key decisions to do with a person's education should be made on the basis of best quality information. Young people should make those decisions themselves with advice from their parents and teachers, and that practice should apply throughout.
1953.
There are other high stakes decisions such as the choice of GCSE and GCE subjects. Even now, decisions on such matters are based on little information. When we complete the curriculum review we intend to present a new assessment regime to cover all young people's education. The regime will provide a basis for guiding young people, parents and teachers on choices in education. The new curriculum review will not require any particular structure for second-level education.
1954.
There are very good reasons for differences in schools and differences in emphases, and it is that which provides real choice. In calling for wider provision we realise that not all schools will be able to provide the full range and that this will lead inevitably to schools developing strengths in particular areas. We think that this is good. We think that this will allow schools to develop, choice to develop, and young people to develop all their strengths and capabilities. It is vital that all choices are of the same quality. We must educate all young people to their full potential.
1955.
The Chairperson: I was perplexed when you said that you could not defend the test but then mounted a substantial defence by accepting that it is an accurate reflection of pupils' ability. Your criticism appeared to be of how it is marked and assessed. As the chief executive of the examinations board charged with that, should you not have reformed the test? Would that not have been better than having us undertake a major review of the whole education system?
1956.
Dr Lennon: The Department of Education was responsible for the process. It is only recently that CCEA was asked to run the test. We did not design it, and we have not been asked to reform it. Technical questions should be directed to the Department of Education. Having said that, all that Mr Boyd said is correct. However, this is not the only issue with the test.
1957.
There is the matter of coaching. We have been through questions about the predictive testing of future ability. The current test is based on knowledge rather than potential. There are questions about the design of the test and what one should be testing for. Assessment regimes have changed. We use key stage assessment, which includes a wider range of technologies and views. Some aspects can be defended, but others would benefit from a different assessment regime.
1958.
Mr Boyd: That was not a defence of the transfer test as a selection procedure. We happen to have a system that has a test written into it. There are good and bad points about such a test. It can only tell you how a young person performed for that hour on that day, and that is the nub of the issue. I do not want anything I have said to be thought to be taking away from that.
1959.
Dr Lennon: This may still be a problem regardless of the assessment regime. However, there is evidence in literature and research that the test gives rise to significant distortion in teaching, in P7 and with the delivery of the curriculum, and we are concerned about that. That must be dealt with. It may be an inevitable consequence of an assessment regime, but we can do better.
1960.
Mrs E Bell: You say that the new curriculum will achieve a better balance between knowledge and skills and encourage a new approach to learning. That will then require a new approach to teaching. Will the new assessment regime and the new curriculum ensure that those emerging from education possess the wider attributes that will be required by society and employers in the future?
1961.
Mr Boyd: That is one of the objectives and what we are trying to achieve. We are disciplining ourselves in developing a new view of the curriculum. We do not want to come back with a CCEA view of the new curriculum and simply hand it over.
1962.
The ideas have been developed out of a huge consultation process. We have been involved in the 'Northern Ireland Cohort Study', a unique practice of tracking thousands of children through their school careers and asking them for their views of everything they experience. We have involved large numbers of teachers and education professionals in consultation at various stages, and we have opened it out to the world of business, industry and commerce and to other bodies. We want to draw on everybody's views and on best practice wherever we see.
1963.
Dr Lennon: Northern Ireland is not unique in this respect. Those of us who have earned our livings outside the world of education - and we are both from a business and enterprise background - recognise that there are imbalances in focus between knowledge-based and skills-based education that are reinforced by the assessment regimes in our examination systems, which are based on theoretical rather than on practical knowledge. We must redress the balance because there is discontinuity between the world of education and the world outside it. As Mr Boyd's anecdote illustrates, we must shift the balance between skills and knowledge
1964.
Mr McHugh: You said that you foresee diversity among institutions but that they should all have the same standards. Do you foresee some schools being more academically focused and others more vocationally focused? Perhaps you see specialised schools such as England has. How do you define vocational education and how can parity of esteem between academic and vocational courses and qualifications be achieved?
1965.
Dr Lennon: I can give a personal view, although we all have our own vision of the future. Some schools, because of their size, background, history and geography, are better at some subjects than others, and some will continue to place emphasis on academic subjects. They will be more academic than vocational, to use the old terms. Some schools will focus on vocational and business subjects because they feel that these subjects best suit their pupils.
1966.
Differentiation is inevitable, and that is all to the good because the national curriculum is fairly rigid. All schools, with their different strengths, try to do the same thing in different ways. Each tries to produce the same sort of academic outcome. We need more choice and more variety, and schools will have to differentiate to a degree. That is a good thing.
1967.
Mr Boyd: There are many answers to the question "What is vocational education?" It is a minefield but not be as difficult as it appears. Training as a doctor involves education which leads directly to employment, and that has traditionally been seen as vocational education.
1968.
If a sixth-former wants to do an A level which his school does not provide, he can do it in a neighbouring school or college where it is available. There are several examples of that in the Province, including Belfast, and it is to be welcomed.
1969.
Mr S Wilson: I am confused. Do you administer the test or do you set the questions? Do you mark them and set the grades? If so, then despite what Mr Lennon said, it is CCEA's job to ensure that the questions differentiate the pupils and that there is no squeezing of grades. That is standard practice for GCSEs and A levels, so why is it not done here? Are you purely administrators?
1970.
Dr Lennon: Our role in the selection test is very different from our role in GCSEs and A levels and so on.
1971.
Mr Boyd: We choose the questions, and we administer and mark the test. We did not choose to have the test in the first place - we did that under direction. We did not choose to have six grades in the test, and that is part of the problem. We do not advocate, even in the short term, that those six grades continue.
1972.
The grade boundaries would be easier to define if the test were more difficult. If the questions were more difficult, the average mark would come down and the spread of results would be greater. We are against doing that, because the test is enough trauma for young people as it is. We do not want to make it worse with questions that they cannot handle. It gets progressively more difficult - on page after page the questions are harder. It is designed to help differentiation, but it is also designed not to put kids off, and we are dealing with 10- and 11-year-olds.
1973.
Mr S Wilson: It is amazing that you prefer a test that is unreliable, to use your word, in how it allocates youngsters to one that puts them off. That comes back to a question that the Chairperson asked at the beginning. One of the problems is that the gradings are unreliable because the questions do not differentiate enough. Surely it is incumbent on the examining body to ensure a more dependable result.
1974.
Your comment about the shorter tail of pupils leaving school with no qualifications contradicts what Gallagher and Smith said about the "long tail." My question is factual, and the information would be useful to have. Have you information about the number of youngsters who do GCSEs yet leave with no qualifications? We have comparisons with the boards. There is a discrepancy between what you say and what Gallagher and Smith told the world about the long tail of non-achieving youngsters. That is a result of our education system.
1975.
Your document says that you see schools operating with degrees of specialisation, and Dr Lennon said that that is likely to happen. However, Mr Boyd seems to be saying that vocational and academic courses should be available to all to have differentiation between schools. That would remove specialisation. What is more important, you say in your document that in schools where there is that degree of specialisation there is prejudice among parents in favour of the academic route, which inevitably leads to schools being oversubscribed. In that case how will you decide who gets into those oversubscribed schools and who does not?
1976.
Dr Lennon: The role that we have described for CCEA in this test is the correct one. When the Department of Education wanted to make changes, it looked to Queen's University for advice on the nature of the test not to us. The test is very different from the rest of the examination system. Education and library boards previously ran it, but at some stage it was passed to CCEA.
1977.
I have read all the research papers that have been sent to the Department of Education as a result of the study, and I do not accept every piece of analysis. There is a wide degree of variability in the quality of the research, and the term long tail cannot be justified. I do not have the figures to hand, but only about 5% of people in leave school without any qualifications, a very small number. The numbers have decreased in the past five years because in the past a large number of schools did not enter people for examinations.
1978.
There have been long debates in the sub-committee and council about the performance of our selective system compared with those in England, Wales and Scotland. It has been argued that Northern Ireland would be better measured against a region of England such as the north-east. It is not correct to characterise Northern Ireland's education as having a long tail.
1979.
CCEA wants to try to square the circle that you have identified of schools offering, for example, vocational education across the board. There is no conflict there. CCEA encourages all schools to have a range of provision; CCEA would like to see that. We do not want vocational schools and academic schools à la the German model.
1980.
I am certain that schools will choose to specialise in one direction, and that will evolve from the needs of the parents, the school, the children, et cetera. CCEA will not prescribe a system, and I do not see any conflict there.
1981.
Mr Boyd: A point was made about the hopes that parents have for their children. A lot believe that their children are successful if they turn out to be doctors, lawyers or other people who wear suits.
1982.
Mr S Wilson: Or if they wear a uniform.
1983.
Mr Boyd: A significant number of parents are influenced in their decisions for their children by the social status of a uniform. That is life in Northern Ireland. CCEA wants to broaden the issue and encourage the notion that it is socially acceptable to follow other routes. There are enough lawyers and barristers, but in future there will be a shortage of half-decent plumbers. There is a strong view that a half-decent plumber is worth as much as a half-decent barrister.
1984.
Mr S Wilson: They cost almost twice as much to pay.
1985.
Mr Boyd: I am making the serious point, in a slightly facetious way, that a range of skills must be encouraged. However, there are social pressures that are causing certain schools to be over-subscribed. Those same schools would be oversubscribed tomorrow if they were turned into comprehensive colleges at the sweep of a pen.
1986.
If Methodist College became Methodist High School tomorrow, it would still be oversubscribed, and there would still be issues to deal with. You have asked a specific question about how you make choices. From what I read, the review body appears to be approaching the issue in a very sensible way. There seems to be a realisation that no matter what you do, a roll-out process is involved, and that might take 10 years, according to 'The Belfast Telegraph'. I can deal with the reality of the situation, and that reality may well be that decisions will continue to be made by way of the transfer test in the short term.
1987.
However, I strongly believe that a good assessment regime, good parental involvement and the advice of top-class professional teachers will influence educational decisions at every stage of the process, and we wish to provide teachers with an assessment regime that will not add to the bureaucratic burden. If anything, it should reduce the amount of time spent on keeping records.
1988.
The Chairperson: Perhaps you will address the question of the long or short tail.
1989.
Mr Boyd: That question has already been answered. A great deal of work has gone into the tail, and it is a matter of fact rather than opinion that it has been significantly reduced over the last few years for many reasons. I do not have the figures with me, but they show a substantial reduction.
1990.
The same issue arises with literacy. As you know, Northern Ireland does not do very well when it comes to certain international standards of literacy, but you will also know that the problem tends to lie with older age groups rather than younger people with whom significant work has been done. Young people tend to achieve more in literacy than people used to.
1991.
Mr Wilson: You are going to supply us with the figures; do the statistics compare Northern Ireland with other areas when it comes to the tail?
1992.
Mr Boyd: I do not have them here, but I shall get them for you, and you will see a significant improvement.
1993.
Mr Gibson: Are we not wasting our time? First, there will always be selection, because people select by their very nature. There is no such thing as an academic subject; every subject is a vocational subject. People wish to progress, and if there are not tests, they will invent them. The process of natural selection is one of social competition, and this morning we are talking about how parents' social ambitions are the driving force behind education. As politicians we recognise that.
1994.
It is therefore a matter of how we handle those ambitions. The one statement that was true referred to educational outcome, and that is the relevant point. What we teach is important, but often the question is irrelevant. Enoch Powell was a Greek scholar who became a Brigadier. People transfer their skills, and all we teach them is to use their brains more slowly or quickly.
1995.
What are we doing to equip our children to adapt to whatever society invents? The technological age is not new; we have been playing at it since Farraday invented the electrical generator. Are we not missing the most basic things: while we must enable children to perform at certain levels, we have forgotten the value of things like keeping a clock? Businessmen do not talk to me about academic ability but about the importance of a fellow's being able to read a clock and measure with a rule. The ethos of a person is as important as his academic ability.
1996.
Dr Lennon: I do not believe that we are wasting our time. Enoch Powell is a perfect example of someone with a tremendous intellect and a great academic education who had extremely poor social skills and a low ability to get things done. Ultimately it was his undoing and caused his political career to fail.
1997.
The Chairperson: Mr Powell was technically a colleague of mine; I was very impressed by your description of his background, but a little less so by your conclusion.
1998.
Dr Lennon: I was unfortunate enough to have his extremely lengthy biography on my bookshelf at home. By way of explanation, I was talking about national politics; I hope that helps.
1999.
The Chairperson: Whatever we do, we shall not speak ill of the dead.
2000.
Dr Lennon: We have the same idea of what we want from the education system. We must deliver more skills to people and help highly academic individuals, whether they are medics or not, to communicate and develop good interpersonal skills. Thinking and knowledge are extremely important, but the world of work is different. Academia and the population as a whole overvalue them.
2001.
Mr Gibson: Should we not teach interpersonal skills in this age?
2002.
Dr Lennon: We are focusing on key skills in the curriculum review. We are currently talking about only three key skills, the application of number, communication and information technology, but there will be more, and we must deliver them right across the ability spectrum.They are as vital for a plumber as for anyone else. Indeed, perhaps we should help good plumbers run good businesses rather than work for someone else.
2003.
Mr Gibson: Do you not think they charge enough?
2004.
Dr Lennon: Yes, but there are not enough of them. However, whether the people in question are plumbers or surgeons, they all need skills to handle themselves and their interpersonal relationships with others. Our education system does not deal with that in a very formal way. There are associated assessment complications. We tend to teach what is easy to assess. Pencil-and-paper tests are easier to use than a portfolio or a test to demonstrate a pupil's ability to communicate. We are trying to shift the balance and, as you say, thus change society's perception of what is good and bad in education.
2005.
Right now people see grammar-school education as better than secondary-school education. I should like us to be able to deliver a curriculum radically different from what exists currently. You may well find then that people will regard a vocationally-oriented school as significantly better for the modern world than one that is slightly more academically focused.
2006.
Mr McElduff: I find it hard to resist the debate about Enoch Powell and "national" politics; "Dublin or London?" is the question.
2007.
In paragraphs 5.2 to 5.4 of your submission, you recommend a later start to formal instruction. What age do you suggest, and how many fewer years of formal education might be appropriate?
2008.
Dr Lennon: That is a very important question, and I am pleased you have raised it. The council was discussing that only yesterday. I suspect it will be difficult for many people to take on board that a significant body of evidence from Europe and elsewhere suggests that in Northern Ireland, and to a lesser extent in England and Wales, children, particularly boys, are being required to learn to read and write too early. Boys at that early age have fewer motor skills than girls, and they find it more difficult to hold a pen. Research suggests that it is beneficial to delay the teaching of formal reading and writing for at least one year, probably two.
2009.
That goes against what people expect of early years' learning. However, it is supported by data and by achievements elsewhere. One must remember that 20% of adults in the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom have reading and writing difficulties, and we are not doing well in the European league tables.
2010.
It will be difficult for people to understand that because it is counter-intuitive. However, it is important in relation to reading and writing, learning social skills at an early age and dealing with the link between social deprivation and educational outcomes. However, it does not go far enough. Other organisations such as social services bodies and organisations that deal with parenting issues also need to be involved.
2011.
That is one area of education that could be improved if support agencies became involved. The relationship between social deprivation and education outcomes has already been established when a child is 11. Social backgrounds are differentiated at primary school.
2012.
The Chairperson: Thank you for attending the Committee meeting. We are grateful for your excellent presentation.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 17 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Gibson
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Witnesses:
Mr N Smyth )
Mr P Masterson ) Confederation of British Industry
Mr J Cooley )
Mr J Owen )
2013.
The Chairperson: We welcome to the Committee for Education representatives from the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), here to give their views on the review of post-primary education.
2014.
Mr Masterson: The CBI represents the corporate sector and business community in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Our interest is ensuring that conditions are created - both here and in Great Britain - where business, and therefore the community, can prosper. Those present today take a close interest in educational matters.
2015.
From our perspective, education is vital to our future economic prosperity and success. We rely on the output of the system to help us prosper, and we are pleased to appear before the Committee regarding this important review. Mr Smyth, director of the CBI, will give a short presentation.
2016.
Mr Smyth: I shall draw out the key points from our written submission, covering the scope of the review, the importance we attach to developing a consensus on the outcome of education and the importance of addressing the weaknesses in the current system.
2017.
I shall also outline our views on the way forward, highlight the importance we attach to increasing standards overall, acknowledge that we must work within the realities of the current system and make some concluding remarks. The submission as a whole focuses on what business seeks from education. Our strength lies in putting our views - both to the Committee and in the submission we made to the review body.
2018.
As Mr Masterson said, education is an important area. It is essential that we provide young people with the attitudes, knowledge and the skills they need to be employable. That is critical for the future success of the economy.
2019.
We have emphasised the importance of focusing on overall outcomes. The review must be comprehensive, and all the key issues must be taken into account. The Committee's terms of reference recognise it as an area that is both comprehensive and complex.
2020.
We must ensure that sufficient time is given for the review to take those issues into account; it is necessary to make sure that we proceed carefully and on the basis of good evidence.
2021.
In our submission we highlighted the importance of developing a consensus. The final section of the Gallagher and Smith report 'The Effects of the Selective System of Secondary Education in Northern Ireland' stressed that it should be the starting point. A key part of our submission highlights from a business perspective what we believe young people should achieve in social education and in the context of overall economic objectives.
2022.
The need for an equitable distribution of skills is highlighted. There will be increasing demand for a highly skilled, adaptable and creative workforce, and higher expectations from all levels in the system. There will still be jobs for less skilled people, but in the knowledge economy there will be a move to higher levels of skills overall.
2023.
Recognising the importance of employability must be at the heart of the education system. Our vision for it creates high expectations where every individual is enabled to develop his potential to the optimum through being encouraged to gain the relevant knowledge, skills and values, thus enabling informed choices for lifelong development and employment.
2024.
We define employability as an individual's possession of the qualities and competencies necessary to meet the changing needs of employers and customers, thereby realising his aspirations and potential in work. Those are set out in exhibit 1 in our paper. We do not see that as a narrow business agenda, for many of the employability areas concern ensuring that an individual can succeed in and contribute to all aspects of society.
2025.
It must be recognised that standards in the education system will need to increase. Most work and life skills are the same, but there are obviously some very specific job skills. We need a system that is more focused on individuals, and it should be customised as much as possible. We should aim to develop each individual's potential to the full. There are no quick or simple fixes on the issue. In examining a way forward, we must be imaginative, taking into account such developments as the effects of short-term actions on the long term.
2026.
There are significant strengths in the education system - particularly for high-achieving pupils - but there are also several weaknesses. Too many young people leave without basic skills in literacy and numeracy. Too many leave with low qualifications, with little or no vocational skills and poor key skills. Expectations for many young people are too low, as are those of parents and teachers in many instances. We attach importance to the assessment of standards that are currently incomplete and too narrow. The curriculum is a key issue, and we are aware that the Council for the Curriculum, Examination and Assessment (CCEA) has given evidence.
2027.
Underperforming primary schools must be investigated. There is insufficient early intervention in both primary and pre-primary education. The need to improve the effective monitoring of performance in the education system is emphasised. At the moment, the key issues are the loss of self-esteem at the selection stage and the fact that the post-primary sector is too polarised.
2028.
We need vision and imagination in the way forward. It is necessary to consider potential long-term developments, taking into account the possibilities of mass customisation and the more effective use of information and communications technology. With regard to the importance of integrating schools with the local community, the balance between central direction and local enterprise must be considered.
2029.
We have highlighted structural, social and cultural barriers that must be surmounted. They are not a "driver", but we need to take account of cost and efficiency.
2030.
To maintain and increase academic standards, streaming is probably essential. We have supported a focus on reducing underachievement. There is evidence that it can be accomplished, and many schools have successfully addressed the issue.
2031.
Schools' performance must be monitored. We should encourage greater mobility between post-primary schools. There should also be a much stronger focus on finding out what students are good at to build education around that.
2032.
We attach a great deal of importance to creating the right environment for early learning in primary and pre-primary education. That can be done with the help of parents and service providers. The new curriculum can make a big difference to motivation and raising standards.
2033.
There are naturally limitations. Cost must be taken into account when major changes are being contemplated in the infrastructure of education. For example, a cost/benefit analysis should be undertaken when such changes are considered.
2034.
Some form of selection will be necessary where choice is offered or demand outstrips supply. We emphasise the importance of offering quality options so selection becomes less important in future.
2035.
Testing should be based on the curriculum, but continuous assessment should also be considered. We have no particular view on an ideal age for testing.
2036.
The "one size fits all" approach is probably not the most effective or appropriate way forward, and we should encourage local solutions. A major, radical shake-up may not be the most effective way forward, but neither should it be ruled out.
2037.
All the issues must be taken into account at this stage. The changes to the education system could be enormous, and it is important that we develop a consensus on the desired outcome. We should try to focus on a system that meets individuals' needs, and that should be customised as much as practically possible. We must ensure that all the key weaknesses are addressed to raise standards. The new curriculum will be a key part of the way ahead. We are unlikely to find quick fixes, and local solutions may be the effective way forward.
2038.
Mr Gibson: You mentioned consensus, but that might be difficult to achieve. We shall have to be more ambitious than that. I also feel it is too vague simply to call for better outcomes; we must be more specific. How can education be improved to ensure improved results? What weaknesses must be dealt with to upgrade the system?
2039.
The word "vocational" keeps cropping up. However, every subject - reading, writing, even Latin - is that.
2040.
What I am getting at is this: what are you doing to raise the perception that the industrial part of society enjoys equality with other positions in life, including the academic? The missing factor is that you have not done enough to raise the perceived worth of industry in society. In other words, social ambitions are not effective to you.
2041.
Mr Masterson: There are one or two aspects to that question, and we shall try to deal with them separately. First, what are our concerns - in other words, what are the threats? Secondly, what is our contribution? I can start with the former question, and Nigel Smyth can pick up on the latter.
2042.
Our concern is that we come out of the review with a better solution, but please do not be drawn to the impression that we have an education system failing in all respects. There are good outputs from the education system in some parts, and we do not want to lose that. The good education system has been one of the salient points in promoting ourselves as a local economy; do not forget that. However, we recognise that there are deficiencies in significant areas, and large numbers of people are coming out underequipped for the world of work. Our contribution, talking at a broader CBI level -
2043.
Mr Smyth: Perhaps I might pick up one specific point before we turn to the second issue. If I have understood correctly, you asked what outcomes we require. We have been quite specific in exhibit 1 of our paper. We have defined what we mean by "employability", and it is worth reiterating. We need young people with the right values and attitudes, and we have identified where those are. We believe every young person leaving the education system should have the basic skills of literacy and numeracy, and we know we are currently failing in that area.
2044.
We believe the six key skills of communication, application of number, information technology, improving one's own learning and performance, working with others and problem solving are essential from an employer's perspective, and they are essential as life skills. We are encouraged by the current consultations with the CCEA that those will feature strongly in the future curriculum.
2045.
Other generic skills, such as customer care and proficiency in modern languages, are becoming increasingly essential. We also need skills to keep up to date in relevant knowledge and understanding and job-specific skills; we have highlighted those. We must build a consensus, for we do not have one at the moment, even on the issue in question. That consensus must be defined more on the basis of the skills.
2046.
There is an issue with the other point - examining bridging the divide between the vocational and the academic. Employers have a responsibility for that, particularly when advertising for staff. We still tend to focus on GCSEs, A levels and degrees, and there is not enough talk about level 4, level 5 and so on. One of the problems is that there is quite a confused picture of the nature of each of the extensive array of qualifications. We have been arguing that we must have a clear qualification framework, that people should be rewarded and be able to move between them for accreditation and so on. Certain medium and large employers have taken that on board, but it is a massive undertaking to try to educate so many small businesses. Evidence indicates that it takes something like five to six years for a new qualification to become accepted within the broader business community, so there is a task for us. I agree that business has a major responsibility regarding the issue. We must ensure that universities recognise that and ensure that their admission criteria take on board the vocational as well as the academic; there are also a number of other areas.
2047.
Our way forward is to focus more on the employability criteria to try to breach that academic and vocational divide.
2048.
Mr McHugh: Why do you believe that employability must be at the heart of the education system when employers speak of ability, skills and attitudes, yet seek out GCSEs, A levels and degrees? Why do they use contradictory language on that? Why are you advocating individual accountability for teachers when that happens in schools already? Are you recommending the tried and failed solution of performance-related pay?
2049.
Mr Masterson: It is true to say that employers tend to go to the marketplace and create an emphasis on qualifications; there seems to be a singular focus. The CBI expresses its concerns about individuals' broader skills in the workplace. There are concerns about those broader skills that graduates bring to it. They are deficient in a number of areas, and that is why the CBI is trying to track the skills Mr Smyth mentioned back into the education system. They must be cemented into the curriculum more.
2050.
Will employers start to take note at the point of selection? It is variable; some employers note the lack of skills at selection stage, but others do not notice the deficiency until they are at the other side.
2051.
Mr Smyth: There is a problem with what is valued and what is assessed. At present the CCEA does not have assessment systems for key skills, but they are being developed, and they will come through. GCSEs and degrees will get an applicant through the door, but at the interview the employer will be looking for other key skills such as communication. On reading the advertisements in local newspapers one can see the increasing importance attached to communication and IT skills. There is a gradual movement towards those key skill areas.
2052.
The CBI identified those key skills almost 10 years ago, and we believe they will be fundamental in another 10 years' time. Other areas will change, but I feel that we are correct about them. Customer care and modern languages may also become more important.
2053.
In 1998 the school inspector said that approximately 15% of teaching was not good enough. That is not acceptable, and the CBI is concerned about it. There are some good teachers and head teachers, but there does not seem to be a process of filtering out the not-so-good ones. They need support, and they can come through, but we must be more hard-hitting. It is essential that we have the best teachers and that those teachers are rewarded effectively. They should be retained and developed, for that is where our economic future lies.
2054.
Mr Owen: Under employment law, there must be selection criteria in advertising. That is not saying that every job requires a GCSE; it does not. It is wrong to have GCSE as a minimum qualification if the job does not require that level of education. One will find that people move more towards GCSE or an alternative, or put forward other selection criteria. However, employers are limited by fair employment law in how they advertise, carry out the selection process and bring the right people through. That process may not be directed towards having the best people at all times. There must be some form of selection criteria inserted into those advertisements.
2055.
Mr McHugh: Is there a difficulty in having to select the person with the highest merit rather than a less qualified person who may be better suited to the job?
2056.
Mr Owen: I do not subscribe to minimum qualifications in advertisements. I prefer to look for a range of experience or other criteria. By doing so I hope to bring forward the right people. Over the past few years, employers in Northern Ireland have been trying to supplement the education system. Where there have been gaps in social skills or in any other areas, employers have invested in training programmes to make people employable.
2057.
Mr Cooley: The world of industry is rapidly changing. The education system feeds into that. Employers must look continually at the skill requirements for their jobs, and those change rapidly. As employers, we want an open-door policy to the world of education. We want people from education to come into our world to see the current and expected needs and look at how we can work together to ensure that young people coming through can find employment in our world. As employers, we still use education - we educate our own employees, as they also have to change and add to their skill base.
2058.
Mr McElduff: In your paper you say that parent and pupil choice, with appropriate assistance from teachers, is the preferred long-term option. You also state that a radical shake-up at this stage may not be the most effective way forward. Why is that impossible in the short term?
2059.
Mr Masterson: Some form of decision will have to be made on selection on the other side of the review, we are dealing with scarce resources. We have an open mind as to what type of review that process should be. There are problems with the current one. Not only does it inadequately reflect the performance of the child through school and make shaky predictions of future ability; it also inadequately examines matching the individual attributes of the child with the educational path and preferences to follow. We should like to move away from a single-focus decision output from our own selection to a more collaborative decision between the parent and the educator, the school or whatever that is to be.
2060.
Whatever fits the needs of the child is the key consideration. There is closer integration between parents and school on the other side of primary school key stage 2, since options allow it at that stage. That decision has gone wrong - there is flexibility for the child on the other side. Those children can be moved with greater ease between a more vocational, technical or academic route than is currently the case. The opportunity to move them again on the other side is very limited; that should be the focus of the test.
2061.
Mr Smyth: We suggested in our submission that we should explore the more evolutionary approach. Potential disruption is our main concern about the big bang. We are all agreed that it is a complex arena, so we suggested that the evolutionary approach is more effective for earlier outcomes. Everyone learns at a different rate, no matter what the teaching system is. We must remember that a major shake-up in anything creates insecurity, and that it is created at different levels of learning ability. We support the system suiting the learning abilities of the pupil, rather than trying to fit those different levels of learning into one system.
2062.
Mr S Wilson: I should like to welcome the realism apparent in many areas of the document.
2063.
My first question returns to what you said about the recruitment process, basic skills and so on. When people initially apply for a job, you must have some objective means of assessing whether they get over the first hurdle of interview or shortlisting. Are the current content of subjects and the means by which those are assessed so deficient that, when you advertise with academic criteria, you do not get people with those basic skills? Will there be a radical change in what goes on when subjects are being taught and assessed so that people with those skills can be brought to you?
2064.
You stated - and many people are coming to your point of view - that an immediate radical shake-up is not really an alternative. What do you see as a substitute? There is an expectation of some change.
2065.
In all the papers we have received - including your own - people have said that some change is needed, and that is realistic enough. What do you see as the biggest priorities in the interim? If we are not going to have a radical change, what are the small incremental changes required? Which are most immediately needed to make the post-primary education system more suited to the needs of society?
2066.
Mr Smyth: The biggest weakness is in the key skill areas. A qualification is a qualification, but for many jobs it is pretty irrelevant. Key skills are essential for entering a working environment, and they have not featured strongly. They are now being addressed in the current and the proposed future curriculum, as well as in further and higher education. They are assessed in certain Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) training schemes. We have emphasised that, and we believe it to be very important.
2067.
Our biggest concern is that someone's having a number of GCSEs and so on does not necessarily mean he will be able to do the job - it simply shows a high level of knowledge. He or she may not be able to communicate. Employers are looking more at the broader skills.
2068.
Mr S Wilson: Do you believe, therefore, that the content of subjects and the means of assessment ought to be changed to give greater emphasis to such things? It is a fairly radical step for the curriculum.
2069.
Mr Smyth: Indeed, absolutely. From current CCEA proposals, we understand we are moving that way, and we are delighted to see that. At the moment we are in consultation concerning some of their latest proposals on key stage 4.
2070.
Mr Gibson: Interpersonal skills have been moved up the agenda.
2071.
Mr Owen: In academic terms, it is an excellent system. It produces excellent people in relation to academic qualifications and standards. Perhaps something that works so well - as has been proven - does not need to be fixed.
2072.
Looking across the whole spectrum, however, what do we find? As Mr Smyth has said, other necessary core skills are not being taught in the education system. We pick that up afterwards - in many cases after third-level education.
2073.
The other thing is that the career planning side is not working so well - in other words, taking in what the pupils want and where their vocation lies at an early age. You mentioned that "vocation" covers the academic and technical as well as the vocational. I do not see how they can be split, unless people are forced into a particular stream. There is room for a much closer liaison and better understanding of career planning in the education system before moving on, and I feel that is where the realisation of social skills and other core skills might lie.
2074.
Mr Masterson: I shall add to those comments by emphasising that, while we point towards the high spots in the current education system, there are also soft spots, and we have emphasised that in our submission. There are underperforming primary as well as secondary schools. It is not talked about very widely. We talk about an underperforming secondary sector. In a sense, most people unfortunately look at the primary sector's output because of the selection tool. From our perspective, however, other measures not currently disclosed to parents, such as assessment at the various key stage levels, should be considered.
2075.
The focus must be moved more from what the transfer test or process will be - for there will be something there - towards how we drive up primary and secondary standards. We should have fewer outputs that do not meet the needs of industry. Fewer people would come out deficient in the most critical skills - not only in the employability skills mentioned by Mr Smyth, but in absolutely basic skills too. In the world of work, we currently find it difficult.
2076.
Mr McHugh: Is there something lacking in primary or post-primary education that allows people to leave school with the idea that they are complete for life without needing to go into further education or lifelong learning? It seems that men tend not to go into further education. Industry must feel that there is a major deficiency in the education system. Could something be done to change the situation?
2077.
Mr Smyth: Developing a culture of lifelong learning and development is a massive issue. We must focus on the area of better advice on careers, for people should be aware of what lies beyond school. People come out of school, university and further education colleges thinking that it is the end of their education. It should be only the start, however - companies will take those people on, and that is when they begin the serious training relevant to the world of work. We see careers guidance as a high priority. A review is currently underway, and we believe we have underinvested in that area. Careers guidance must be independent and of high quality so that young people can get a clearer idea of what lies beyond the school system.
2078.
Mr S Wilson: If you are not going to have a radical shake-up of the system, are there immediate priorities that must be addressed?
2079.
Mr Smyth: As we understand it, key stage 1 and 2 tests are not yet published, though that is relevant to what goes on in primary schools. We have also said that the status quo is not acceptable. It is more difficult to say what short-term steps should be taken. We could change the nature of the test to make it more relevant to the curriculum and include some form of continuous assessment. We could set the test later in the year or use key stage 2 at the same time. Overall, we must focus on increasing standards; a number of areas must be addressed. We could also encourage local partnerships between schools to reduce the divide between academic and secondary.
2080.
The Chairperson: In your submission you said some form of streaming would be essential to ensure that high academic standards are maintained. Should the grammar schools be retained as they are, or do you propose that academic and vocational schools be combined?
2081.
Mr Smyth: Our experience of streaming is that if you use the comprehensive system you must use streaming in particular classes. Some young people are better at languages than at science and maths, and that provides an opportunity for those with more ability to move on. One of the main points in our submission is that you must meet individuals' needs. There are high-flyers in schools, and we must encourage them; we suggest streaming by subject.
2082.
Mr Gibson: Law is an academic subject. People like you and me hire lawyers, and I should like to think about that for a moment. They form part of a social elite. How can the business world raise its social standing in the public perception so that it can compete with the range of other professions we term academic? We are managing social ambitions.
2083.
Mr Smyth: Business sees that many young people are focused on going into the safer environments of the professions or the Civil Service. Perhaps that is starting to change with the opportunities in the IT and other sectors. Employers must promote their sectors. The construction sector is crying out for people, since there is a job shortage, and the same is true of leisure and some manufacturing sectors. Employers have a key responsibility to promote their sectors, and highlight opportunities and career development. We are in a marketplace; employers have a major responsibility to take action so that they get the right people and provide development opportunities once they get them on board.
2084.
Mr Cooley: There is a great task ahead, and it cannot be completed by any one sector. Those who give guidance to young people must visit the world of work more often to see where the careers are, what the opportunities are, and how that world has changed since they last visited. I know we should not spend time on anecdotes, but one teacher came into our company and said, "If you children do not learn hard, you will end up working in a factory like this." Those sorts of comments do not help matters, for many captains of industry and others earn more than lawyers do. There are many unemployed representatives of that profession.
2085.
The Chairperson: Thank you very much for your excellent contribution.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Tuesday 22 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs E Bell
Mr Fee
Mr Gibson
Mr McElduff
Witnesses:
Mr M Wardlow ) Mr R Mullan ) Northern Ireland Council for
Mr T McMackin ) Integrated Education
2086.
The Chairperson: Good morning. I welcome the representatives of the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE).
2087.
Mr Wardlow: I will begin by introducing Ray Mullan, who is a Department of Education nominee on our seventeen-member board, which is made up of several constituent groups. Mr Mullan is a former teacher. Terry McMackin is a development officer with the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education. He is also a former teacher. I come from a business and community development background.
2088.
We started off by welcoming the debate on post-primary education. One of the founding principles for integrated schools was an all-ability or mixed-ability intake. We thought that the subject was serious enough to set up a working party. The Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education is a limited company with charitable status, and we are not a headquarters body. We had to pull in 46 integrated schools and try to get their interests represented, as well as those of the parents, teachers and trusts. It was not an easy exercise, there was a fairly consistent view on most things.
2089.
We welcomed the fact that the report stated that what we were looking for at the other end of the educational process was most important. Young people should be able to achieve their social, educational and economic objectives as a result of their education and should not simply go through the system accumulating information like tape recorders. The process must be aimed at developing them as whole young people.
2090.
We also came to the unanimous view that the current system was fatally flawed. Indeed, no one has argued for the maintenance of the transfer test based on academic ability at the age of 11. If selection were deferred to the age of 14, or any age for that matter, it would still be fatally flawed if it were based on academic ability.
2091.
The Chairperson: Others may not be prepared to defend the examination as such, but they have not necessarily ruled out some sort of transfer procedure.
2092.
Mr Wardlow: No one is arguing for the maintenance of the current examination at the age of 11.
2093.
The Chairperson: No one is arguing for it in its current form.
2094.
Mr Wardlow: After substantial discussions, it was decided that we should focus on was what was coming out the other end and that, therefore, the system should be put in place afterwards. Rather than labour over whether the Scottish, German or Austrian model is preferable, the intention of the working party was to consider principles, rather than to recommend a particular system.
2095.
The current system is based on competition for a limited number of grammar school places. Education professionals in the working party asked about the educational basis for that. In some board areas, 50% of young people attend grammar schools. In some board areas, pupils with a grade A cannot get into grammar school, but in other board areas, pupils with a grade C can get in. The current system does not offer inclusion and equality of access, contrary to what the Programme for Government, the Belfast Agreement and other papers that have been published in the past couple of years suggest. We recognise that the tail of low achievement is reducing, but a situation in which twice as many young men as young women leave school without any qualifications cannot be sustained in the twenty-first century.
2096.
There is also a need for joined-up Government. The end result of educational review, including curricular review, should be that young people can live as citizens not just of Northern Ireland, but of an increasingly plural world. The curriculum should support that, and citizenship should be included in it.
2097.
Young people tell us that they want equality of access and opportunity. It is no coincidence that today over 300 young people are talking about their experiences at the Save the Children Fund event in the Waterfront Hall. I heard some of those young people talking about going to the "stupid school". That is not just anecdote; young people are saying that on the record. In the integrated sector, we have always had mixed-ability intakes coming through the school doors. Any solution that would replace the transfer test at the age of 11 should be based on mixed-ability intakes.
2098.
It is incredibly difficult to deal with mixed- or all-ability classes. Teachers have been thrown carrots, and there are all sorts of discussions about thresholds. Ultimately, however, teachers have been given the tremendous task of dealing with curricular review. Some people are suggesting that teachers should assess the children, but the teachers and their unions are saying that it cannot be left to them. If we are to have a mixed-ability system, teacher training must reflect that. It is not sufficient to tell teachers that they must learn such-and-such. Our teachers were unanimous in saying that it is an extremely difficult subject.
2099.
There are more teachers in the profession today than ever before. That is not a coincidence. Since the local management of schools (LMS) programme handed responsibility for hiring teachers to the boards of governors, class sizes have come down. That trend should be maintained. The post-primary review should take into consideration the curriculum, LMS and local accountability for the teaching complements.
2100.
As with so much else, we inherited an English system. We inherited the transfer procedure and the 11-plus while grant-maintained schools seemed to mimic the opt-out schools. Why on earth in Northern Ireland in the twenty-first century can we not create rather than imitate? This was one of the reasons why we did not opt for any one system but for a set of principles. There is ample evidence of creativity in the Northern Ireland system. Integrated schools are an example of that; parents started the bulk of them, and 46 schools are now flourishing. There is other evidence along with our curriculum review that Northern Ireland can lead the way rather than be the subject of somebody else's history.
2101.
Although there are 17 integrated colleges and all of them have over 300 pupils, only 12 of them were established since 1995 or before. Therefore only 12 have GCSE results that can be compared to other schools. We have a model of all-ability schools that should be examined. Only five of the schools have been in existence long enough to have effective sixth forms and to turn out either the baccalaureate in Lagan, until recently, or A levels in Hazelwood and Oakgrove.
2102.
The question is often asked "What is the added value in mixed-ability schools?" The most recent statistics show that our pupils comprise not only of mixed ability and co-educational cohorts but that 20% of those attending integrated primary schools receive free school meals. The figures for the controlled sector are 17% while the Northern Ireland average is 23%. The colleges' figures are 22·5%. It means that between 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 of the young people in our schools are from areas of social disadvantage. When we refer to mixed ability we do not mean just the educational cohort. Our schools offer co-education and they include children from all social classes.
2103.
Parents, even in our sector, look at schools' results. In the 1998-99 figures the Northern Ireland non-selective GCSE average was 33%; it was 31% the year before. Of the 10 integrated colleges four have been transforming to integrated status and their statistics are shown. Brownlow Integrated College is the longest transformed and is performing above the Northern Ireland non-selective average. The other schools transformed recently and are still working through the process.
2104.
Of the six grant-maintained schools all, with the exception of Lagan College, which had 31% in that year, outperformed the average. This year Lagan College is back up to 44%, having been at 47% in 1997-98. The GCSE results show that all grant-maintained schools consistently, with the exception of Lagan College last year, perform above the Northern Ireland non-selective GCSE average.
2105.
Slemish College, in the North Eastern Education and Library Board area, was formed in 1996 and has an intake of 110. It is now the most oversubscribed school in the North Eastern Board area and has had to turn away 93 applicants. Ballymena Academy, by comparison, did not reach its quota last year. Of those children, 36% achieved grades A to C and 17 of them gained A grades in a school that is non-selective in academic ability.
2106.
Key Stage 3 results in integrated colleges are above the Northern Ireland average for non-selective schools. In Slemish College's mixed-ability intake at year 8 there is no setting, and in year 9 students are set three subjects. In contrast, Shimna College was formed in 1994 and has an intake of 80 pupils; last year it turned away 29 applicants. Its 51% GCSE grades A-C last year outperformed every other non-grammar school in the South-Eastern Education and Library Board area. It may or may not be a coincidence that Shimna College is the only integrated college that does not set its pupils until year 10. It is working towards a majority of a mixed-ability/all-ability intake right up to year 10. It only sets on two subjects. It now has a viable sixth form and we look forward to the A-level and NVQ results next year.
2107.
Lagan College, which for many is the flagship school, was formed in 1981 and has intake of 170. Twenty-eight of those young people are grade A or B 1s. It turned away 220 young people last year, and its GCSE average for grades A to C this year was 44%. The Northern Ireland average as we said earlier is 33%.
2108.
Lagan College does have a sixth form and until last year ran the international baccalaureate. It is now offering NVQ and A Level. Even at the baccalaureate, 85% of young people succeeded in this exam. In intermediate and advanced level GNVQs, 100% of the students who sat the tests received those awards. Lagan College is showing that you can have a mixed-ability intake, that you can offer A Level and GNVQ side by side and still have good results.
2109.
In closing this presentation, John F Kennedy said, the best way to create the future was to invent it. I am arguing that we owe it to our children to offer a system which will allow them to look back on their school days, not only as the happiest of their lives, but as the days in which their potential was recognised.
2110.
During Carmel Gallagher's presentation she said that when she interviewed the cohort study participants, young people aged 11 and 12 want to be:
"Personally educated, confident, self-assured, understand their emotions, health and sexuality. They want to be politically and environmentally aware, they want to be prepared for work and ICT"
2111.
It is like a shopping list. We are not saying that young people should get everything they want or indeed, that they even know everything they want - but we have got to listen to their opinions.
2112.
Parents, as well as children, are central to what we do in the integrated sector. It is no coincidence that 35% to 40% of young people at integrated colleges have not sat the transfer test. Some of them have attended integrated primaries, but some have not, and that figure stands at somewhere around 20% of those in other school sectors. We are arguing that there are schools and that they should be investigated. At the minute we have a draft report that has looked into the integrated schools, which will be part of what we are prepared to present to the Burns Committee.
2113.
The Chairperson: Thank you. How do you think the decision about which pupils will gain places in schools that are over-subscribed should be made? Is there not a great danger of this being decided by postcode, and ought that not to be avoided?
2114.
Mr Wardlow: Someone said it is like a lottery; 'it could be you'. Whatever word we use, there is going to be some form of selection. At the minute children are being selected out or deselected. The fact that children refer to 'stupid schools' emphasises that. At the moment it is a lottery in many schools and even in some of ours. We turn one child out of three away and that is not healthy.
2115.
There is an argument that we should be looking towards a system where children are not turned away and where there is free parental choice in transferring. It would mean larger schools, and we would get into the argument about rationalisation. Schools could set their own criteria. It does not have to be a lottery, but our argument would be that the criteria should not be based on ability alone.
2116.
Mr S Wilson: What criteria?
2117.
Mr Mullan: At the moment, all schools have criteria. All non-grammar schools set criteria, which can be a combination of items. These could comprise neighbourhood, family connections with the school, or parents who are teachers at the school.
2118.
Mr S Wilson: That is the point the Chairman was making. Is that not selection by postcode, by pay packet, and by social connection? Is that any fairer than academic selection?
2119.
Mr Mullan: It is selection by parental choice also.
2120.
Mr S Wilson: It is not, if you have set the criteria along the lines you have mentioned.
2121.
Mr Wardlow: Another issue is that if the schools are large enough to take everyone who want to go there, then the question of selection criteria does not occur. We are in a system where people are competing for places. We have schools where there is parental choice, and we still have to set criteria, which is usually those who have brothers and sisters at the school or those who have been to an integrated primary school. We do not use ability as a criterion. It is inevitable that there will be some form of selection if there are going to be a limited number of schools and school places.
2122.
Mr S Wilson: Do you think that social selection is better than academic selection?
2123.
Mr Wardlow: Those are your words. We do not see it as social selection. It is down to parental choice.
2124.
Mr S Wilson: I am just taking the criteria that you have outlined to us.
2125.
Mr Mullan: It seems to me that if you are going to allow ability to be a criterion then all schools should be allowed to decide on that basis - not just grammar schools.
2126.
Mr McElduff: Do integrated post-primary schools have all-ability classes or is streaming or different types of setting or banding used? If there are all-ability classes, are they for certain ages or certain subjects?
2127.
Mr Wardlow: Currently, all schools in year 8 have mixed-ability or all-ability classes; they do not set or stream. None of the integrated schools stream. Schools have a mixture of setting and banding; the majority will set. Shimna College, for example, waits until year 10 and sets on only two subjects. Slemish College sets on three subjects from year 9. Other schools vary between two and four setting subjects. Pupils are in all-ability or mixed-ability classes for subjects other than those three or four. That applies across the entire integrated education sector.
2128.
Mr McMackin: The core value that integrated schools hold dear is that they do not select children on ability. Mr Wardlow's reference to the 'stupid school' underlines that. Once children are allowed into the school irrespective of their ability, some methods work well, arrived at through discussion between the principal and the staff. Those methods that seem to work well are adopted. This is about movement, from the premise that you have this core value, which is not selecting on ability.
2129.
Mr S Wilson: The idea of the 'stupid school' is not based on evidence. The Gallagher and Smith report pointed out that the youngsters whom they surveyed were very proud of the secondary schools they attended. Most of them said that they were glad that they went there. Perhaps you are challenging the Gallagher and Smith report. However, that is not the kind of emotive language that is coming from the youngsters when they choose which school to go to. All of us would be invited to local primary schools fairly frequently. I have yet to hear the term 'stupid school' used. Perhaps you would indicate where you have gathered your evidence from, and where Gallagher and Smith got it wrong.
2130.
You have quoted statistics for individual schools. We could go into the reasons why particular schools outperform others and we could look at what people say about standards. Often the leadership in a school and its location are as important as its intake.
2131.
It seems odd that at a time when, in the rest of the UK, all-ability schools are being rubbished by the Prime Minister and the Department for Education and Employment, you seem to want to go back to the failed model of the 1960s. That model is now regarded as inadequate and, to use the terms of some of its staunchest defenders in the past, has failed a generation of youngsters. While you have quoted evidence for individual schools under your remit, how do you explain the under-performance of the mixed-ability comprehensive schools, which have caused so much concern in the rest of the United Kingdom and which they are now ditching?
2132.
Mr Wardlow: It depends where you source your evidence. I have seen very cogent arguments for and against the Scottish system of comprehensive education. We could play volleyball with evidence. No-one is saying that we are turning the clock back. We have 17 all-ability schools that are working and are oversubscribed. There are schools in England based on mixed-ability or all-ability intake that are working. The fact that the Prime Minster may or may not say that one type is better that the other is, with respect, his opinion.
2133.
I am returning to the fact that we should be creators and not consumers. Other countries are arguing - and you have looked at some models - that all-ability intake is possible. That does not mean that you do not look at children in terms of their ability per subject, which is work setting - Mr McElduff's question comes in there - and which is what our schools do. That is often done at a local level.
2134.
The Chairperson: What about the reference to 'stupid schools'?
2135.
Mr Wardlow: That evidence comes from the Save the Children Fund's report. Three hundred and sixty children were interviewed. When the Save the Children Fund's report, which is being launched today at the Waterfront, is published the evidence will be there.
2136.
The Chairperson: Could those who hold a particular viewpoint have influenced those children? I worry about the use of such terms. It does education a huge disservice to brand a school as a 'stupid school', and it puts teachers in an invidious position. Would it not be better if we were to conduct the important debate without resorting to emotive terms that could show individual schools in a bad light?
2137.
Mr Wardlow: One third of Northern Ireland's population is under the age of 21. Perception is nine tenths of the truth whether we like it or not. Many of those young people may not have another way of saying what they feel about this. It is a fairly large cohort study and what seems to be coming across is more than anecdotal. I cannot say whether Save the Children are pushing a particular party line. However, there is evidence that young people at selected-out schools feel that they are not as worthy as their peers at grammar school. In fact the Gallagher report says that grammar-school pupils score 16 extra GCSE points because of the grammar-school effect.
2138.
Mr S Wilson: Would it be better to have the 'poor school', with pupils selected on the basis of social background?
2139.
Mr Wardlow: That is going back to the idea that there are only a few options. We are talking about principles. No-one can wave a magic wand and give the answer. We are saying during the curricular review, the LMS review and the educational administration review that we cannot rush this issue - it needs to evolve. Any selection based on academic ability is fundamentally flawed.
2140.
Mr McMackin: We are offering a particular choice. I taught in St Louise's Comprehensive College, and then Lagan College. They are different types of all-ability school, and both are eminently successful. All-ability schools, whether formal comprehensives or in the sense that we are speaking about, are extremely successful. We work on the basis of inclusiveness, which is a very important value. There are various ways of structuring the system, and we are offering one way.
2141.
Mr S Wilson: You have accepted that by laying down criteria you are dividing children. Let us not run away with the idea that you are all-inclusive. You admitted to the Chairman that you divide children - by locality, whether they have peers at the school, or whether their parents went to the school. There will be division where there is oversubscription.
2142.
Mr McMackin: There is something particularly pernicious about dividing children according to ability.
2143.
Mr S Wilson: It would be far worse if they were divided according to their parents' pay packet or where they live.
2144.
Mr McMackin: We do not operate on that basis.
2145.
Mr Wardlow: It is very simple; we need bigger schools with larger intakes and then the issue is dealt with.
2146.
The Chairperson: We would have to increase taxes accordingly.
2147.
Mr Wardlow: A price must be paid for the education of our children. We cannot scrimp on that. We already invest in our teachers.
2148.
The Chairperson: The Committee is perfectly aware of its obligations. What is desired is not always easily attainable.
2149.
Mr Gibson: I have experience of mixed-ability education. Eventually, it had to be abandoned. You said that you had mixed-ability intake, but that you also had setting. One is the antithesis of the other. Setting has to be done on some basis. One negates the other.
2150.
Mr Fee: Is there anything unique about the integrated schools system that could be imported into the rest of the education system? I come from a place where integrated education cannot work because there are not enough Protestant children - we are all taigs there. There are other areas in the same situation. Are there elements of your approach to education that might be useful to the rest of the system?
2151.
Why are teachers so reluctant to advise parents about where their children should go? The Committee went to look at the German system. Primary school teachers there play a crucial role in giving advice. They do not determine where the children go; the parents determine that. However, over time, the teachers give an assessment of how a child is doing. I detect resistance from teachers in Northern Ireland to the idea that they should be part of that process.
2152.
Mr Gibson: There is a lack of confidence .
2153.
Mr Fee: I can understand why they would not want to be involved, but they are the professionals in that situation.
2154.
Mr Mullan: Integrated schooling is based on the premise that children should not be divided by religion. Having refused to make a distinction on religious grounds, we do not think that it is logical to make a decision on ability grounds. That would be ignoring one form of segregation in order to introduce another. All the children are of equal worth and ought to be treated as such. All-ability schooling and integrated schooling go side by side.
2155.
There is no single model of mixed ability work associated with integrated schools. Our presentation showed that there was a wide range of experimentation on how integrated schools deal with all-ability intake - streaming, which is the exception, setting, bands or totally mixed-ability classes throughout. Most integrated schools operate some form of total mixed-ability teaching and some form of setting. Like Mr McMackin, I taught in a comprehensive school in west Belfast, and mixed-ability classes worked very successfully. Mixed-ability work is undoubtedly a challenge to the teacher. Teachers need to be more inventive, but it can be done. As Mr Wardlow said, teachers should receive more training in mixed-ability skills.
2156.
Mr McMackin: In what circumstances would teachers advise parents on choice of school?
2157.
Mr Fee: It may be advice on the choice of schools, setting or banding. If there is a way of selecting children other than by a single exam on a given day, it must be some form of continuous assessment. The direction of the child's education - at whatever age - would be determined by the child, the parents and the teacher. We will not change the system if teachers refuse to review their role.
2158.
Mr McMackin: There is, possibly, some reluctance on the part of teachers to face the burden of deciding what happens to a child after the age of 11. Integrated schools offer a high-profile role for parents, and that could help with the relationship between the school, parents, teachers and pupils.
2159.
Mr Wardlow: Our system makes it difficult for teachers to envisage the future. They do not want to be the arbiters of a child's future in a system that selects by ability. Teachers feel that, perhaps, they could be blamed if they advise a parent that his or her child should go to a particular school.
2160.
Any new system must take into account the fact that the burden of responsibility has fallen on teachers for too long. We owe it to teachers to show them inventive methods and to provide re-training and in-service training. That would enable them to make informed choices, as the professional in the triangle of parent, pupil and teacher. Under the present system, even if the teacher makes an informed choice, there is no guarantee that the child will get into a particular school in the board area. Teachers are reluctant to be fall guys for decisions to push a child in one direction or another. If there were more choice and if there were mixed intakes, teachers will - if properly trained - be one of three people involved in the education of a young person.
2161.
The integrated sector has parent councils rather than parent-teacher associations. That could be imported into other sectors. Parents in the integrated sector have a high level of involvement in the informal curriculum. Teachers and parents in the integrated sector take a collegiate approach. They come from the two main traditions and others; they are males and females dealing with young males and young females. It is a microcosm of what Northern Ireland society should be.
2162.
The Chairperson: When the Committee examined the Scottish comprehensive system, we learned of a report advocating the addressing of underachievement at stage one and stage two - roughly equivalent to our Key Stages 1 and 2.
2163.
Mr Wardlow: There are schools in the North of Ireland where there is low achievement. The level is coming down because of programmes such as the Raising Schools Standards Initiative (RSSI). However, the common curriculum cannot be suspended to help a school through a specific problem. The approach must be holistic. In integrated schools - as with every other school - there are special needs children; LMS allows schools to place the necessary teachers in those situations. Integrated schools are aware that a good partnership with the parents and the young people allows them to devise a way of dealing with mixed-ability intakes and other issues such as RSSI or special learning needs.
2164.
The Chairperson: How can there be a parity of esteem between academic and vocational courses and qualifications?
2165.
Mr Wardlow: Humpty Dumpty said that a word would mean whatever he wanted it to mean. "Vocational" has become a pejorative word meaning "trade". Young people, regardless of what they want to end up as in life, need vocational and academic training. The trick will be in how that is delivered. The jury is out on whether there should be a common curriculum to 14 or to 16 and then a joint choice. However, Hazelwood College and Lagan College offer A levels alongside GNVQs. Young people can do both; they do not have to be streamed into an either/or situation. We need a pluralist approach that allows for the young person's needs to be met. That will cause problems.
2166.
Mr Mullan: We must not push children into specialising too early. The danger is that there would be two groups - people on the university route, and everybody else. People who are not going to university are told that they will take the vocational route, which becomes stigmatised. I saw it in schools 20 years ago, when vocational courses were introduced for people who could not do A-levels. Those courses soon became stigmatised. That is a danger.
2167.
The Chairperson: Like "stupid schools"?
2168.
Mr Mullan: That is exactly the point.
2169.
Mr Fee: Are you suggesting that there should be an element of compulsion? Should every child do vocational and academic work?
2170.
Mr Mullan: All students must do the same curriculum up to the age of 14. After that, there are various optional subjects. It is possible that there is greater flexibility for sixth-form students, because they are beyond compulsory school age.
2171.
Mr Gibson: Should there be optional subjects at 14?
2172.
Mr Wardlow: We cannot give the council's view on that. The council will respond separately to the curriculum review. I am happy to put on record what I believe, but I do not want my views attributed to the council.
2173.
It would be crazy for a student to specialise to be a medic at age 14 and choose only science subjects. We all agree that there should be core subjects. Citizenship education, for example, should not be simply about how Protestants and Catholics live together, but about how people can be active citizens and how they might live in a pluralist society. There will be a vocational element to that. To specialise academically at 14 is, in my view, crazy.
2174.
Mr McElduff: We have often heard about poor teacher morale in the secondary sector. How would the council describe morale in the integrated post-primary sector?
2175.
Mr Wardlow: Those who apply to us for head teacher posts will say that there are high levels of stress involved in, for example, moving into a new school that is starting from scratch. There are particular difficulties with transforming schools, where people are trying to change a culture that has been there for a long time. Teachers in transforming schools will say that it is not easy, particularly for those from the minority tradition in the school.
2176.
In the main, our teachers are working through a career path. We are not experiencing a mass exodus, or having lots of folk phoning up for stress counselling. Like all teachers, however, ours are finding themselves under consistent pressure to perform. In the primary sector, many teachers are under stress because of the coaching versus non-coaching issue. We are not any less or more stressed, and we have two or three teachers applying for every teaching post. The shortlisting procedures alone are horrendous. Perhaps, that is because they are new schools, with new challenges.
2177.
Mr McMackin: There is a sense of being involved in a new venture. I have taught in two integrated schools. There is a helpful sense of camaraderie among staff, but that does not relieve the stress that all teachers are experiencing.
2178.
Mr Gibson: Is there such a thing as an academic subject? Are not all subjects vocational?
2179.
Mr Wardlow: Is that a rhetorical question? It does not matter what a subject is called, the important thing is perception.
2180.
The workforce and the further and higher education establishments dictate the requirements of the school system. There are certain given facts. For example, a student who wants to do medicine must have 3 grade As. We cannot change that, so we must ensure that young people have a rounded education. In a school with a co-educational, mixed-ability intake and with teachers and governors from both traditions, parents are highly involved. There is opportunity within and outside the curriculum to learn new subjects. We hope that what we offer a more rounded young person with a more holistic approach to education, which we believe mixed-ability schooling can deliver.
2181.
Mrs Bell: How can we build up public confidence in the new system? We hope that whatever we put in place will be a good, all-round system. How do you deal with opposition to the establishment of a school in a particular area?
2182.
Mr Wardlow: In our experience, it is a process, not a product. It is a journey, not a destination. If we see it as a destination, we are talking about revolution rather than evolution. We want to deliver something that best suits the young people of Northern Ireland, so that they can live together and celebrate together , but we cannot turn everything around and deliver that within a year. There must be a lead-in period.
2183.
The fact that we have an Education Committee is one of the most attractive things about what is happening here. We have representatives who are accountable for public money and know that they must balance one demand against another. People realise that we have accountable government for the first time. The people are taking decisions together. When the parties take a lead and ensure that the communities are consulted, there are no winners or losers. People feel that a compromise has been reached and that it is a win-win situation.
2184.
Ultimately, as Mr McMackin said, this is a value issue. Young people must feel that they have a place in the here and now - not just in the future. We are not arguing for a revolution, but there are instances of successful all-ability schools here, so why must we look at somebody else's system? Why can we not create something ourselves and let other people mimic us?
2185.
Mr McMackin: Integrated schools can offer parent groups experience of working to create a school. There is a real sense of ownership.
2186.
The Chairperson: Thank you. We hope that we will have continued contact.