EDUCATION COMMITTEE
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
(Mr Gerry Burns, Chairman of the Review Body on Post-Primary Education)
Thursday 26 October 2000
Selective System of Post-Primary Education in Northern Ireland
Members present:
Mr Kennedy (Chairperson)
Mr S Wilson (Deputy Chairperson)
Ms Lewsley
Mr McElduff
Mr McHugh
Mr K Robinson
Witnesses:
Mr G Burns)Chairman of the Review Body on Post-Primary Education
Mr A McVeigh) Secretary to the Review Body on Post-Primary Education
The Chairperson:
I am pleased to welcome Mr Burns and Mr McVeigh of the Independent Review Body for Post-Primary Education. We look forward to a useful exchange of views and information which will help all of us as we move forward in this important subject.
I understand that you are going to make a presentation, and we will ask questions afterwards.
Mr Burns:
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the Committee. I read through the Assembly debate. Most, if not all, of you participated, and I found it positive and constructive. It helped considerably to set the standard for debate that one hopes will take place over the next few months.
It will be best if I explain what I have been up to so far. We have established an office in Adelaide Street in Belfast to set out the independence of the Review Body, away from the Department. I am not a civil servant, but a number of civil servants on detached duty will assist the Review Body. I should mention that, at the time of my appointment, the Minister gave me a full assurance that he would not interfere in any way with the discussions or work of the Review Body. I also have received that assurance from the Permanent Secretary. I expect that they will keep their word. If anything were to happen that I felt was compromising my position in any way, I would let that be known. In that case, I have the ultimate sanction of walking away from it.
I want to establish a high standard of accessibility to the office. We started off by advertising and have carried out our first advertisements. We will be following those up and asking people to make submissions. To some extent we have established dates but they are, in some ways, constrained by the time scale. At the time of the press launch I said that I had reservations about the time scale. I am to have a report ready by the end of May. At the minute I cannot say that that is too short.
I understand that people are anxious to see this brought to a conclusion as soon as possible. I will make every effort to do that, but the time scale may need to be revised and I will speak to the Minister about that.
I have been sending letters to schools, trades unions, area boards, district councils, and all the public and representative bodies that I can think of, asking them to submit their views or comments on this matter. I want to be as transparent as possible in that regard but I do realise the limitations. I have told all of them that their submission will go on a web site, unless they prefer it not to, so people can see what others are saying about this.
I am anxious to ensure that the individual who is not articulate or forthright in his views should be given an opportunity to express them. I want to ensure that community groups, for instance, will play a part. I will be writing to at least a thousand community groups asking them to assist in and discuss the matter amongst themselves and, if necessary, to assist individuals. I know that public meetings are not everybody's cup of tea - although some may cater for individuals that does not necessarily mean that they can say whatever they want - nevertheless, I have established, or at least set out, a tentative schedule of public meetings. Twenty meetings have been scheduled throughout the Province and Mr McVeigh will let you know where we intend to hold them. I will be pleased to hear your comments on that.
I have not as yet got a Review Body in place but I understand that one is being put together. The Minister told me that the Review Body would be appointed before the end of October, and I understand that the Committee was consulted about that. I am looking forward to that happening and when it does I hope to bring people together in meeting blocks of two days - I expect that people will have to travel and their diaries fill up quickly. I expect that we will meet about twice a month initially, depending on how things develop. We will probably meet about four times a month when it comes to the actual production of the report.
I will have, I understand, five education advisers to test submissions with academic rigour. I will be pleased to see evidence from the research they have done in that area. I will also ask them for position papers on earlier activity. I will consult the Consultative Forum which will comprise representatives of area boards, trades unions, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and other bodies such as the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE). I do not expect that body to meet as regularly as the "formal" body, but it will be a group of people, who share a particular interest and who have experience in this field. I do not want to sit in an ivory tower preparing a report which is wonderful in theory but which will not work in practice. The Consultative Forum will help the Review Body to keep its feet on the ground.
I have been following with interest the Committee's work and I hope that it will have significant influence. I have no doubt that you are going in the same direction as the Review Body. I want to see what can be done to stimulate people's interest as this is an opportunity for them to express a view on something which will affect the whole of society. I am glad that it transcends the political divides. Different people have different views, and that makes my job all the more interesting. People have sympathised with me for taking on this role. I have not reached a position of being pleased to accept their sympathy, and I look forward to this discussion.
The Assembly discussion was very good, and I look forward to discussing the matter further. I am not carrying any baggage on the matter. I look forward to a constructive joyful discussion which is something that we need. We want to achieve an education system which will be an exemplar for other countries.
The Review Body is not yet in place, but we can draw up a rough timetable for consultation for about the end of January. I have asked for substantial submissions to be in by the end of December. I am very anxious to get those, because there is a lot of work to be done. The evidence from the research and written submissions will have to be examined and considered during February and March. I hope to be able to compile a report by April or May - if everything goes well. Meetings and diaries have to be arranged. Various bodies will want a one-to-one discussion on many issues. There are 1,400 schools, many of which will be making substantial submissions. It looks like an increasingly difficult date to meet.
I will review that position over the next month because the public meetings may not be well attended - I do not know. We might choose the wrong night for people in some towns; on the other hand, we might be overwhelmed.
I will speak for 10 or 15 minutes at the meetings. It is hoped that a video presentation will stimulate discussion through a number of questions. The discussion will then be opened up to the floor, where there will be roving microphones. Each meeting will probably last for about an hour and a half, but the schedule, which runs until about mid-January, is tentative and tight.
That gives you a flavour of what we have been up to. I will answer any questions that members have.
Mr McVeigh:
I have a copy of the schedule of public meetings, which is available for distribution. There should be one each. As Mr Burns said, the schedule should be treated as provisional. We will work with a company that will examine each venue in detail to ensure that it is appropriate and has the necessary facilities. That work is about to start, but at least three venues are regarded as TBC - to be confirmed - by the owners of the premises. The meetings will run, in no particular order, from mid-November to mid-January with a break of about a month in December/early January.
Ms Lewsley:
My question is about submissions. The Minister said that "significant submissions" would be brought to the attention of the Committee. What is your definition of a significant submission and how will you bring it to the Committee's attention? Will you hold meetings with those who provide a written submission?
Mr Burns:
I hope to respond to anyone who wants to have a meeting and submits what I consider to be a substantive submission. At this stage, a substantive submission may deal with the organisation of post-primary education in recent years, the current situation, and what should be done. I expect a submission will require a fair bit of reading and it would probably have to include evidence on supporting points, which may come in for analysis or criticism.
Regarding what the Minister said about drawing the Committee's attention to significant submissions, I will put them on a website to achieve transparency. I cannot ensure that all of them will be printed because I do not know what they will contain. For example, a man told me - he may have been joking - that his school, which I consider to be an important one, will make a 69-page submission.
That could not be done in the proposed timetable. The operation that I have put in place will be extremely difficult to reproduce for everybody. I am not clear about what the Minister said.
Mr S Wilson:
Did the Minister consult you on the commitment that he made to us? He made a commitment on your behalf that any significant submissions to the Review Body would be made available to the Committee. He did not elucidate what was meant by a significant submission. I do not know whether that refers to the number of pages or the content, as it is a fairly woolly term.
Did the Minister run his commitments past you? If so, what advice did you give him? If he did not seek your advice, it was a bit naughty of him to have made a commitment on your behalf. Despite your answer, I am still not clear about what a significant submission might be. How often would the submissions be made available to us, and what would we be expected to do with them? Would you take comments from us, or would the process simply be informative?
Mr Burns:
The Minister had no discussions with me. I am independent, and it is important that I protect that independence. I do not foresee a problem in making submissions available - I want to be transparent - but I would find it difficult to place a duty on myself to ensure that submissions that I consider to be substantive are made available to the Committee. I want to liaise with the Committee on the discussion and on the submissions that are sent to me. The definition of "substantive" will evolve in the first few weeks because it may be relative to what we receive overall. I will be in a better position to answer that more definitively in about a month.
The Chairperson:
I understand you, but the Committee believes that a ministerial commitment has been given. It is unfortunate that the Minister did not share that commitment with you. Although you were left in the dark about it, we want to hold you to that promise.
Mr Burns:
I will get clarification on that.
Mr S Wilson:
I appreciate the commitment that you gave in your submission allowing the Committee a significant influence on the final report. The word "significant" comes up again. By what mechanism will we have that influence? How will you ensure that the Committee's views are reflected in the report?
Mr Burns:
The Committee is an important body. It is a body that will attract interest and can express opinions. I hope that it will influence people to respond to the Review Body and to make submissions, so that they do not miss the opportunity to express views on our education system. I expect that, occasionally, the Committee will make statements. During the existence of the Review Body, some research work may also be undertaken. I cannot say at this stage. The process will involve liaison.
At the outset I said that we are all heading in the same direction. We want to see a system that provides the optimum education for all children and maximises their potential. We hope to find a modus vivendi towards achieving that objective.
Mr Wilson:
That is what worries me. You have outlined your objective, which is laudable and we share it. You want us to have significant influence, and we are told that we will find a modus operandi to do this. At present there is no clear method by which we can have influence. Our encouraging people to respond to the Review Body or making occasional statements is not a significant influence. I hope I am not doing an injustice to your comment.
Mr Burns:
I appreciate that. However, you will appreciate that the Review Body is not yet in place. As soon as it is, we will schedule a meeting to get things underway. I suspect that there are areas of work that could be carried out to assist the Review Body. I will produce a report outlining a series of recommendations. This will be presented to the Minister, after which it will be open for discussion. You ask me what your precise role is; at the moment I want you to support me in whatever way you can. If there is a more definitive way of doing this, I will let the Committee know.
Mr McHugh:
The last time I faced you, Mr Burns, was across the table at Fermanagh Council. We disagreed quite a number of times about standing orders. You mentioned some options that are of particular interest to me. However, there are other options that I hope can be included. In particular we could consider the system in the Twenty-Six Counties. That was missing from the report. There are also other schools that can be looked at in the Six Counties.
I should like the consultation to be widened to take in such matters. Will that happen? It is important that people have the full range of options. Best practice should be taken on board, and those options should be considered which have proved successful in their own areas rather than merely consider those which are similar to our own. While I accept what has been said about substantive submissions, those making them need not have more say than the public - there must be a balance.
The public will have 20 meetings. Places like Dungannon, which is quite a distance from Omagh, must be included as venues. The distance from one end of Fermanagh and South Tyrone to the other is quite substantial, something which is also true of Fermanagh itself. I am not sure that one meeting in Enniskillen is enough for the county. You have already mentioned my other difficulty: time constraints. The time available for consultation may not be enough for the public to have an input.
Mr Burns:
Let us look at the terms of reference on the matter of options:
"To consider research and other relevant information on the impact of Selection on pupils".
These terms of reference are very wide. I had other matters to attend to before I saw this. I was interested when the 11-plus was mentioned, but when I saw the terms of reference I knew that I would not be able to do anything else. My wife would also have a comment to make about that, for there were things to do at home.
I am concerned about the research available on the options which can be included in submissions. People may bring in any other relevant information they wish. I appreciate the point that you make about substantive submissions - that you do not wish some people to have significant influence while others do not. That is why I feel it is terribly important that I retain my independence.
If, however, people with a background in education or some standing in the field make a relevant submission and ask for a meeting, I cannot refuse them. There is no way I could do that. However, I can best serve every interested party by ensuring that the Review Body is as accessible as possible and that I pay attention to what they say.
I will note what you say about Dungannon. I will be unable to attend all these meetings. I hope that the Review Body will be able to split up, with some members going to some places and some to others.
Mr McVeigh:
The list of venues will be compressed into two or three weeks in November and December and a couple of weeks in January. Meetings will almost certainly be held on the same night, so the Review Body will have to divide into two.
The Chairperson:
How do you intend to record the representations at the meetings?
Mr Burns:
We have hired a firm to provide a transcript.
The Chairperson:
I have a concern about the venues. Significant towns have not been included. Has this been done on a geographical or political basis?
Mr Burns:
It has been done not on a political basis but roughly on a geographical one, paying attention to the areas for boards and to the school population. It is not a definitive list, as even those venues have been difficult to obtain.
The Chairperson:
When I said political, I meant electoral.
Mr Burns:
I beg your pardon.
Mr McElduff:
Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Tá fáilte roimh an bheirt agaibh. We do not want this to be a rerun of the Gallagher Report findings. Serious consideration should be given to the system of vocational and community schools in the rest of Ireland. That is a flaw in the Gallagher Report, admirable though it was. Given the proximity and relevance of that system, it should have been examined further.
Has there been any feedback from the Education and Library Boards' dissemination seminars? The profile of the office in Adelaide Street should be heightened to let people know that it is there. For practical and symbolic reasons, I would like to see a sub-office west of the Bann.
Mr Burns:
So would I, but we cannot afford it.
Mr McElduff:
Carrickmore was omitted from the list of venues for a significant time.
Mr Burns:
We will have advisers from the Republic of Ireland who will be familiar with vocational skills. If the Committee says to the Review Body "We think that you should be doing such and such", I am happy to listen. That is why we have advisers. A member of the Committee thought at first that I had arranged the Boards' dissemination seminars. I did not. They were arranged by the Department and Mr McVeigh went to them; I did not.
Mr McVeigh:
The seminars were attended by an invited audience of school principals and other educationalists. The feedback on the report was generally positive, but it was felt that the timetable was extremely tight for schools and for others who wished to comment. It was suggested that special arrangements should be made to allow the involvement of disadvantaged communities in the review. Those were the main themes to come through.
Mr K Robinson:
My colleagues mentioned the fact that the vocational schools in the Republic of Ireland were not looked at. My understanding is that you would be assisted by an adviser from the Republic of Ireland and by advisers from England and Scotland as well as by Professor Gallagher.
I have raised the matter of the desirability of having a local adviser to help you other than Professor Gallagher, who has, after all, had a central role in compiling the report. It would bring an added welcome dimension from a local perspective. We could use all the different building blocks. The Minister has on at least two occasions been challenged by me to respond to that. On the last occasion in the House, during the debate, he nodded across and I took that as an acceptance.
When gathering information and background, you will have to respond to community groups and others. You see those as being fairly central. I know that they do wonderful work - I am involved with them myself. Sometimes, however, I get a wee bit concerned that this distorts the true picture. As you are investigating the selection process it might be worthwhile contacting the primary seven year and primary six year pupils and their parents. It would be a good follow-up exercise to ask first and second-year pupils at secondary level what their experiences have been. Their parents' views should be sought as well.
West of the Bann has been mentioned, but no one ever seems to have heard of East Antrim. Newtownabbey is the central point there. East Antrim takes in Larne and the growing borough of Carrickfergus, as well as the centre of the universe that is known locally as Ballyclare. May I suggest that you look seriously at the East Antrim/South Antrim area - a growing area where you would hear a wide variety of views.
May I give Mr Burns a wee bit of advice? Most of us at the table will know that, when you hold your meetings, you should avoid the Coronation Street syndrome. If you hold them on that particular night you will find that, as we do when we canvass, people will not open their doors.
Mr Burns:
Man United syndrome also springs to mind.
Mr Wilson:
They will be out of the European Cup after the next match, anyhow so it will not matter.
The Chairperson:
Tempting though it is to speculate on how football teams will perform and on how popular Coronation Street undoubtedly is, we will just have to manage.
Mr Wilson:
One venue that has not been listed where there is quite a concentration of grammar schools is South Belfast. I notice that you have left that off the list for venues.
Mr Burns:
Yes. I will take on board the points made about South Belfast and East and South Antrim. The contact with pupils is also valid, and I thought that it would be a good idea to engage the universities to carry out a student, or pupil, exercise. I am sounding out whether they can do that, as I think that we have missed out on pupils and it would be worthwhile if we could address that with the present group. It is a good idea that I am anxious to pursue. It would be interesting to obtain their views, but such an exercise would need to be correctly carried out.
The Chairperson:
I understand that the Council for Curriculum Examination and Assessment (CCEA) has done a cohort study.
Mr Burns:
I am not aware of that - the CCEA is a body that I have yet to meet. It is the first on my list of people to talk to.
The Chairperson:
Apart from us.
Mr Burns:
I do beg your pardon, Mr Chairperson - apart from the Education Committee.
The Chairperson:
You supplied us with a list of groups that you thought might be involved in the Consultative Forum. It sounded like a round-up of the usual suspects - that is not to be unfair to any of them. What will the relationship be between the Review Body and the Consultative Forum, and how do you see it operating?
Mr Burns:
One has to cater for people with an interest in education. One could not possibly carry out an exercise like this without consulting the area boards and the trade unions.
The Chairperson:
It appears that in the public consultation they too will have the opportunity to make representation.
Mr Burns:
That is right.
The Chairperson:
They are being given a second 'hoke' at it. Is that what is envisaged?
Mr Burns:
I do not want to sit in an ivory tower producing a report - paper never refuses ink. I look upon these people as being the practitioners in the field. I expect that the Review Body will wish to take stock from time to time, and, at different stages, may feel that these people have come up with a suggestion, view or statement, that the Review Body would like to test.
It is in that context that views would be bounced off this consultative body. If something is referred to it which is rejected with complete unanimity, we would have to go back to the drawing board to look at the issue again. Effectively, it is a sounding board. I dislike using that term, but, in practice, that is what it is.
Mr Robinson:
While trying to reflect as positively as we can what is happening, and what we wish would happen, in schools, you will have in the Chairman's words all the usual suspects - I wrote that down beside the list that you read out to us, but not unkindly I must add.
At the launch of the Gallagher report at which you were present, I made the point that it would be a useful exercise to involve practising teachers from primary, secondary and grammar schools - people at the chalk face - who can provide a day-to-day view of the impact, benefits and drawbacks of the current process along with any possibilities for development, rather than have representation only from trades unions et cetera.
Is there a mechanism for this?
Mr Burns:
When you say practising teacher, do you mean a primary, secondary or grammar school teacher?
Mr Robinson:
I do not mean a union nominee. I am a union member; others may be around the table. I mean practising teachers in primary, secondary and grammar schools, so that you have someone who works at the chalk face and who is not the nominee of another body. I do not know how you select such a person. I ask you to pursue that because one of the drawbacks we had with the CCEA and the curriculum reforms was that, quite often, the last people to be consulted were practising teachers. It was only when things started to spin out of control that someone thought of bringing teachers in to ask what was going wrong. It would certainly be helpful to have them on board from the word go.
Ms Lewsley:
Will there be parental representation on the Consultative Forum too? It is important that parents get involved. Pupils should be involved too, perhaps through the Youth Council or similar body. There has been the lack of parental involvement and representation on the boards. All the same faces keep appearing. I do not know how you are going to be able to do that.
Mr Burns:
You have more influence than I do in that. I have no influence at all on who goes on the consultative body. I did not construct it. That is a matter for the Minister.
The Chairperson:
This is an important point. I understood that appointing the consultative body was in your remit.
Mr Burns:
No. I have no role in appointing anyone.
Mr Wilson:
Not even the advisers?
Mr Burns:
No.
The Chairperson:
Is that all under the Minister's responsibility?
Mr Burns:
Yes.
The Chairperson:
Are you clear that you have no responsibility in that respect?
Mr Burns:
I am perfectly clear on that. Absolutely.
The Chairperson:
That is news to me. It has been presented otherwise to the Committee.
Mr McVeigh:
At the launch of the Gallagher Report, the press release, which was issued by the Department, mentioned that the Minister would be appointing the Consultative Forum and Education Advisers.
The Chairperson:
We obviously have to pursue it with the Minister. But are you absolutely clear that neither the membership of the Consultative Forum or the academics who support you in your work are your responsibility?
Mr Burns:
Absolutely.
The Chairperson:
Do you know when they will be in place?
Mr Burns:
I expect it to be settled before the end of this month. I fully anticipate some form of announcement about that.
Mr McVeigh:
From speaking to the Department on how that would be handled, I understand that the Consultative Forum will be appointed through nominations from specific interests. The invitation will come from the Department. The body may not be put in place until those nominations are returned from, for instance, the Education and Library Boards.
Ms Lewsley:
How many will be on the consultative body?
Mr McVeigh:
Sixteen.
Mr Burns:
Yes, 16.
Mr Robinson:
I want to pursue the dissemination seminar. I slipped into the back of the Belfast Education and Library Board when it was on, and I congratulate Mr McVeigh on his performance that day -it was sparkling. I was astounded by the rather muted response. I knew some of the characters sitting in front of me and I watched for the springs coming into operation, but they did not leave their seats. Will the consultative body be independent? There was a stress on independence, and you have reinforced the issue of independence to us. Would your dissemination seminars follow the same format or are you learning from seminar to seminar, and changing their format to get a bit more audience participation?
Mr McVeigh:
The seminars were not organised by the Review Body. We attended them for two reasons. First, to hear what was being said, and secondly, to outline the consultation arrangements for the Review. The public meetings will hopefully be more effective by having better participation. In the past, too many people held back their views.
Mr Robinson:
How quickly can written submissions go on the Internet? Can they be categorised in any particular form?
Mr McVeigh:
We are setting up from a standing start in Adelaide Street. We are finding the technology difficult to put in place. For instance, while our e-mail system can send messages to everyone, there are certain sources from which it cannot receive messages.
Mr Robinson:
That should be remedied as soon as possible.
Mr McVeigh:
Yes. Our web site is being developed, and we expect it to be up and running in the next few weeks. We will probably rely on external assistance to put agreed submissions onto the web site. Those that have been agreed for publication can go on to the web site.
Mr Wilson:
How do you identify people from whom you cannot receive messages?
Mr McVeigh:
The system is doing that for us.
The Chairperson:
Have you any idea of how long that will be for?
Mr McVeigh:
We are waiting for British Telecom and an information systems unit to sort that out. We hope that it will be very soon.
Mr Burns:
A day or two.
Mr McVeigh:
We only discovered this yesterday morning.
Mr Wilson:
Once you have received a written submission, how long will it take to put it onto the Internet?
Mr McVeigh:
About one week. We will not be involved directly in the input of submissions, so I cannot speak for how quickly others will respond. It would require using another unit to input the information. However, we would attempt to do it as quickly as possible.
The Chairperson:
Thank you, this public session has been very useful. We want to play an active role in the consultative process, not merely to give advice or to provide useful suggestions. We want you to share as much detail as possible with the Committee - we are not in competition with one another. This is an important subject and we all want to complement the work on it. We have a particular role and we insist on being involved. We look forward to that. There are a number of issues that we will need further clarification on. We should exchange views in this manner regularly, so that we are all properly informed and can keep abreast of what is happening and when and how it is happening. You said earlier that it would be a joyful exercise, so now let that joy be unconfined.
Mr Burns:
I subscribe to everything you have said. I want to ensure that we produce something of great value, and I respect and welcome the Committee's involvement. The Committee can make a significant contribution. I am grateful for your courtesy today - you may not be so nice to me when I produce a report.
The Chairperson:
I will make no comment on that. Thank you very much indeed.