COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

OFFICIAL REPORT

(Hansard)

Inquiry into the Development of a
Museums Policy for Northern Ireland

9 October 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:
Mr Stephen Reid ) North Down Borough Council
Mr David Howard )
Mr Ian Wilson )

Lieutenant Colonel Harvey Bicker ) Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group
Ms Amanda Moreno )
Mr Jack Dunlop )
Major Colin Gray )

Mr Ronnie Spence ) Ulster Sports Museum Association
Mr Nigel Carr )
Mr Ryan Feeney )

The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McNarry):

We now turn to this morning’s witness sessions, which will be covered by Hansard. Good morning, gentlemen; you are very welcome. Please introduce yourselves.

Mr David Howard (North Down Borough Council):

I manage community and cultural services for North Down Borough Council. On the cultural side, that includes the Council’s arts service and museum service. To that end, I am accompanied by Mr Ian Wilson, who is our museums service manager. I ask the Committee to direct specific questions towards Ian, who is the expert in that field.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Is that you off the hook right away?

Mr Howard:

It certainly is. [Laughter.]

The Deputy Chairperson:

You will have five minutes to make your presentation, after which we will put questions to you, Mr Wilson.

Mr Ian Wilson (North Down Borough Council):

I am the manager of North Down Borough Council’s museums service. The title of manager is interchangeable with the title of curator. I have been in post for more than 20 years. In more recent years, I have been the chairman of the Northern Ireland Regional Curators’ Group, the membership of which includes all the curators of local authority museums. I have held that position for eight years, and, because of that, I also sat on the board of the Northern Ireland Museums Council (NIMC). I stepped down from the chairmanship of the curators’ group this year, and was replaced by William Blair from Ballymena, who will also take my place on the board of the Museums Council.

Those positions gave me the opportunity to observe closely the local museums sector over the past 10 years. It has been a time of unprecedented growth in the sector, including all manner of interesting capital projects — some of which are still under way — and novel initiatives by museums, going well outside the core business of collecting, conserving and displaying.

I am very interested in the two strands of museum life. The first is the collecting, conserving, cataloguing and displaying of objects, which makes museums unique in society. The second is the use of such collections to promote access to museums, to communicate with various community interest groups and to stimulate all manner of heritage-related activity. I am very interested in how those two strands can be kept going in parallel. There is a danger that museums can be perceived as places in which all manner of heritage-related activities occur. We must, however, take the longer view, that there is no one else out there in society collecting objects that might otherwise be lost. That is what makes museums unique.

Local authorities have to be congratulated for their support of museums over the years. Politicians will know only too well the dangers of short-termism, and looking to the next election. Museums have to look far ahead. The museum in North Down has two objects that any museum in the world would want. We have the Bangor Bell, which is a magnificent example of ninth-century Irish metalwork. It was used in the monastery in Bangor. We also have the Thomas Raven maps, which are unique. They are the first maps ever drawn of County Down, and were commissioned by Sir James Hamilton, who came with his kinspeople and other settlers from Ayrshire.

Both those objects had been inherited by the North Down Museum when I began work there. They had been acquired by our predecessors in Bangor Borough Council. Our staff and I have a great sense of continuity. No other aspect of the council’s activities feature objects that are, in the case of the Bangor Bell, well over 1,000 years old. It is our responsibility to make sure that those objects survive through our lifetime and through those of future generations.

I am interested in how smaller museums, as well as our national colleagues, have collected, are collecting and will collect valuable objects and care for them, while at the same time keeping up to date with all manner of communication techniques. We are now in the world of audio tours and podcasts.

There is a marrying of those new technological advances — which are being utilised in some of the new developments here in Northern Ireland — with the traditional, “does what it says on the tin”, perhaps unspectacular, but intensely important, task of collecting and conserving.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you very much for that, Mr Wilson. In the submission from your director of leisure, tourism and community services, Mr Reid, it states that the council:

“believes that the powers of the NIMC should be transferred to local government (councils) post 2011, along with the requisite funding support.”

Will you expand on that? It is quite a statement.

Mr I Wilson:

That is the policy of the council. I have had a lot of dealings with NIMC — I have been on the board for 10 years, and only stepped down at the annual general meeting a couple of weeks ago. The NIMC is enormously valuable to the smaller museums. It organises training, disperses grants, gathers statistics and provides advice. The genesis of the organisation was bottom-up, in that it was conceived because the smaller local-government museums felt a need for it. However, now, with the implementation of the review of public administration (RPA), it is felt that that is not a threat but an opportunity for the museum sector in general. In fact, the principles of the RPA have actually been pre-empted by some of the developments of the museums, such as the establishment of the Causeway Museum Service, in which four councils — Coleraine, Limavady, Moyle, and Ballymoney — all work together. The Mid-Antrim Museums Service is another organisation in which a number of councils work together. The establishment of those organisations actually pre-empted the principles that underpin the RPA. A co-operative base has been built, and continues to be built.

The role of the NIMC in the short term is enormously important. There have been doubts, year to year, about its continued funding; it was meant to be dissolved and to receive no more funding at the end of the last financial year, 31 March 2008. It has had a stay of execution for one, or probably two, years. However, in the current climate, the NIMC has an obvious role to play in the formulation of a museums policy, until 2011. It has the expertise, the experience, and all the statistics at its fingertips to assist the Department in conceiving a museums policy. After that, our view is that the new councils could draw on the professional expertise that has been increasing over the last 10 years in the museum services, and the baton could be handed over.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you. Six members have indicated that they wish to speak, so we will begin the questions.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you very much for your presentation. With your vast experience in the museums sector, do you consider that the fact that Northern Ireland has not had a museums policy has been detrimental to the work in which you have been involved? Can you give an example of how that has affected your work?

Mr I Wilson:

Yes, I will give you an example. Within the boundaries of Down District Council there is the Down County Museum, the brief of which is the collecting of artefacts and dealing with all matters pertaining to County Down.

Our museum is also in County Down, as too are the new developments at Bagenal’s Castle in Newry and Mourne. However, parts of Northern Ireland, particularly in County Tyrone, are without museums services. No attempt has been made to examine the Province geographically in order to lay out strategically where museums are needed.

All museums work closely with other heritage organisations, such as Environment and Heritage Service, community organisations, archaeological organisations, and National Museums. That work is ad hoc. There could be more efficient lines of communication between the statutory receivers of archaeological finds and their local museums. Given the size of the Province, and the fact that people in those professions usually know one another, there are good personal links. That is the way in which things work.

There is no formal link between National Museums and smaller museums. There might be a feeling of responsibility among its staff, who are always helpful. However, there is no formal pastoral connection between National Museums — as regards its conservation resources, for example — and the needs of smaller museums. Therefore, the Department could have provided a more constructive framework throughout the years. I have not had any dealings with DCAL. My perception is that its energies and, undoubtedly, its budget have been entirely taken up by National Museums.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you. I must say, Mr Wilson, that there will be a barrage of questions for you. I suspect that members want to take advantage of your obvious expertise and experience. Therefore, I must ask you and members to be succinct. Unfortunately, we do not have enough time to deal with those issues.

Mr K Robinson:

Thank you for your presentation. One concern of mine vis-à-vis this matter is that you have made the point repeatedly about the lack of communication. I would have thought that museums are fairly stable organisations. Given the recent development of independent and local museums, there would have been a fairly good communications network, both informal and formal. If a museums policy were to evolve, how would you take that policy forward? What would you consider to be the key elements of that policy?

Mr I Wilson:

It must be recognised that at the absolute heart of the matter is the UK system of accreditation for museums. It is an increasingly rigorous set of minimum standards that museums must reach. That is where NIMC comes in: it oversees local museums’ applications for accreditation. Without accreditation, local museums find it hard to access grants and to get loans from other museums. A current example from our day-to-day work is that we had strongly considered applying to the Art Fund for help with a purchase. However, when I looked up that body’s website, I saw immediately that it accepts applications from accredited museums only. Therefore, local museums must aspire to that standard.

The NIMC is vital in helping museums through the application process. It is difficult to overstate its importance. In 1993, local museums wished for such an organisation to be set up. It is, therefore, very much a bottom-up organisation. It has been instrumental in many ways and can be in that process as well.

Mr P Ramsey:

Everyone is very welcome to the meeting. Mr Wilson made reference to the museum within the Town Hall at Bangor Castle; can he outline from what sources funding and capital revenue costs are coming? Does he have any knowledge of museums services in other regions, outside the context of Northern Ireland, where best practice is being served?

Mr I Wilson:

Our funding comes entirely from the council. From time to time, we receive grants from the Heritage Lottery Fund and from the Northern Ireland Museums Council; however, funding is almost entirely from the budget of North Down Borough Council — the ratepayers. I do not know very much about the organisational details of funding in other countries; a few years ago however, the curators went to Norway to see how its local museums were organised. Local authorities there had an arms-length system of governance and that was very interesting; an annual grant was given to the museums but there was a separate body constituted, like a board of directors, and the local councillors were happy to operate that way. Those directors — or management body — were people with a very specific interest in museum life, providing probably a more direct and expert oversight.

Mr McCausland:

Mr Wilson mentioned some of the things in the Bangor museum to do with the Hamilton settlement, Christian Heritage and so on; he also mentioned the museum in Downpatrick, which has exhibits concerning St Patrick. With cultural tourism in mind, does he see a strategy for the creation of trails — of synergy — between the two museums? There is much historical interaction among the various locations through, for example, Christian Heritage or the Ulster-Scots Plantation. Does that synergy exist at the moment, or could it happen more readily under a museums policy?

Mr I Wilson:

It is happening at the moment largely because of the NITB’s signature project regarding Christian Heritage. One of my colleagues, who is based in the council’s tourism section, has been detailed to work specifically on Christian Heritage, linking in with the Armagh and Down tourism partnership. There is a lot happening in the whole world of Christian Heritage and it is quite high up on the agenda at the moment. With streamlined local government under the RPA and fewer but larger councils, that could be more easily achieved. It is rather absurd to have a Christian Heritage trail which, after six or seven miles, goes into another jurisdiction. That is purely a twentieth-century administrative convenience which bears no relation to the historical reality. Fewer councils covering larger geographical areas can only serve to help that situation.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you for the presentation, gentlemen. My question has much to do with the fact that as part of the RPA settlement, North Down Borough Council is going to be paired with Ards Borough Council. Have there been any discussions with Ards Council as to how that relationship will work, in respect of historical matters? I am conscious of the tremendous history of Bangor Castle; some of its paintings alone are worth over a million pounds, and Ards is very much looking forward to taking that over. [Laughter.] That should pay for the swimming pool.

I digress slightly; how does Mr Wilson see the two councils working together to promote that historical importance? Down Council was mentioned, and it is important that it was; how will that pairing relationship work when it takes off in 2011? Obviously, promotion is very important. How can this inquiry promote museums services and get more people to visit them?

I have visited Bangor Castle on a number of occasions, and one cannot fail to be impressed by it. How can it be made more accessible for people?

The Deputy Chairperson:

That is a great admission from a councillor from Ards Borough Council.

Mr I Wilson:

An olive branch is being offered for once between Bangor and Ards. [Laughter.]

The Deputy Chairperson:

They are probably after your football ground. [Laughter.]

Mr I Wilson:

First, my attitude is that a wonderful opportunity lies ahead. As I said in response to the previous question, historically it does not make any sense to have a boundary between the two councils. Think of the Hamilton and Montgomery settlement — one cannot make sense of that by separating jurisdictions in the twenty-first century. We worked recently with Mark Thompson of the Ulster-Scots Agency, and he produced a very fine guide to the Hamilton and Montgomery trail and the early Christian links with the Nendrum monastic site and some interesting early Christian settlements down the peninsula, inland from Portaferry. In the future, there lies an opportunity to promote properly museums and their associated activities and sites, such as those that I have just mentioned. It is true that there have been no formal discussions between the councils on the matter?

Mr Howard:

Some work has been done to link the two tourism departments of the two councils. However, the heritage set-up in Ards Borough Council is totally different in the sense that North Down Borough Council has a dedicated museum, whereas Ards Borough Council does not. The establishment of joint working groups is on the council’s agenda. However, the format of the museum or heritage service of the new council will ultimately lie in the hands of the new council. I do not think that there is any doubt that we will seek to develop and promote that joint working approach in due course. I know that the relevant directors will meet in the next six months to discuss that matter.

The Deputy Chairperson:

What about the promotion of our museums and heritage? It is very important to make them accessible and available to ever more people. How do you see that service being enhanced?

Mr I Wilson:

Our world is seamless, in many ways — NITB and local historical societies are very much part of it. Like other museums — Down County Museum, for instance — we run public bus tours that start and finish at the museum. We have run very successful tours around north Down and east Belfast for Christian Heritage and the C S Lewis trail. I know that, from time to time, Down County Museum runs a very popular tour of sites of the 1798 Rising.

People involved in the museum world know one another, and the system works pretty well. However, it could perhaps benefit from a better structure, and, of course, we always ask for an injection of public funds, among so many other things. The potential is nowhere near being reached. Personally, I think that the Nendrum monastic site is a hidden gem; it is a magnificent, fascinating place. The same can be said of a number of other architectural and archaeological sites.

The Deputy Chairperson:

This is all exceptionally interesting, but I must bring the discussion back to the inquiry and the question of a museums policy. I must remind members of that point, too. We have heard a pitch from each council area that has visited us so far, and all the areas are worth visiting, but we must return to the policy angle.

Mr Howard:

To conclude, a museums policy would help to ensure that all councils consider how they will work together to deliver and promote museum and heritage services in future. Putting that framework in place will assist councils in developing that approach. That is the whole point of the policy.

The Deputy Chairperson:

The Committee feels that the fact that we are holding the inquiry appears to have sparked thinking, if not new thinking, about moves that need to be made. Whether that thinking would have been sparked without the inquiry, I do not know.

Mr Brolly:

You highlighted the usefulness and the good job done that has been done by the NIMC over the years. You have also mentioned that organisation’s expertise and experience. This may be a rhetorical question, but how do you react to the proposal by the Department that the examination and investigation into the setting up of a museums policy should be given to outside consultants?

Mr I Wilson:

I cannot see the need for that. We already have the expertise to carry out that task. There is no need for outside consultants.

Lord Browne:

In your report, you state that local councils are the best bodies to provide for local museums. When drawing up a museums policy, what role do you see central Government having in the promotion of museums? Do you believe that councils really are the best bodies to deliver first-class museums in Northern Ireland?

Mr I Wilson:

As I understand it, the main thrust of the RPA is to devolve as much responsibility as possible to local councils. That is a reality that no one can disagree with.

Nevertheless, there are aspects of museum activity where central Government could help, particularly in the area of education and learning. As with many of our colleagues, we run a thriving and popular education and learning programme. That programme is not just for schools; we also offer facilities for lifelong learning. That programme does not receive any funding from the Department of Education, nor do we have any contact with that Department. Therefore, any central Government involvement in education and learning would need to involve many Departments and would go beyond the remit of DCAL alone.

Looking at the issue in the broadest sense, one cannot separate the world of heritage from all other activities. There needs to be a seamless approach from all Departments.

Going back to the initial point, museums are not the same as every other heritage organisations. Only museums collect, conserve and display.

Lord Browne:

Do you think that the private sector should have a role to play in funding? Do you receive any funding from the private sector?

Mr I Wilson:

Not really. Some aspects of our activities receive sponsorship.

Mr Howard:

It has more to do with continuity. Local councils are the future. The private sector fluctuates. Local councils are the leaders for the local area and are responsible for the long-term heritage and conservation for that area. North Down Borough Council believes that control should be situated with councils.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Wallace, you can keep your chequebook in your pocket for a while longer. [Laughter.]

Mr McCartney:

I have two questions. The first touches on your former role as the chairperson of the NIMC. How do you think that the NIMC should fit into any museum policy? I do not want you to talk against your employers, but I know that North Down Borough Council does not feel that the NIMC has a role to play in any policy.

Mr I Wilson:

I was a board member of the NIMC and chairperson of the regional curators’ group, which is more of an ad hoc body. You are asking about how the NIMC fits into the —

Mr McCartney:

— the new policy. What role do you think that it has to play? Do you think that its role should be strengthened or lessened?

Mr I Wilson:

From a personal point of view, my council has taken the line that it agrees with the RPA that the powers of NIMC should be devolved. However, there is always a need for an umbrella body for professional organisations such as local museums.

The NIMC was spontaneously set up because there was a lack in provision in Northern Ireland. Its value has been enormous and its value to the ongoing policy — through its professionalism — is vital.

Mr McCartney:

The Committee has heard from representatives of several independent museums, and observed the growth and strength of that sector. The representatives made the point that their museums tell their stories from their perspective. Is that contradictory to, or can it run alongside, the concept of museums being neutral spaces, as detailed in point 10 of your submission? Is there a role for museums in the independent sector to relate stories from their perspective in a way that that does not run counter to the concept of neutral space?

Mr I Wilson:

To professionally run a museum or any institution that deals with history requires one to take a historians’ step back. There is a professional obligation to consider an event in the context of its time and to take a good overview. If one tries to deconstruct the phrase “neutral spaces”, which is often used, it is, in a way, a tribute to the curators for not coming down on one party political or part-sectarian side. Those in the museum profession here generally accept the concept of neutrality. I cannot speak for every independent museum but if those who conceive the exhibitions and write the text are professional, they will be as dispassionate and historically accurate as possible.

Mr K Robinson:

I want to follow up briefly on that point, because I was scribbling notes as I was listening. Mr Wilson, last week, when members of the Committee visited Londonderry, we were impressed by presentations from representatives of the Museum of Free Derry and the Apprentice Boys of Derry. What came across was the vibrancy of people wanting to tell their story, and it was interesting that each organisation said that the other should have the right to do so. That brings a spark into the museum world that has, perhaps, been extinguished through sanitisation.

I am part of the Newtownabbey Borough Council and Mid-Antrim Museum amalgam that comprehensively tells the 1798 story of Henry Joy McCracken, Jemmy Hope, and so forth. By not simply relating the story blandly from one step removed, but saying that those people lived in 1798 and describing how they felt at that time, we add an extra dimension to the story. Sometimes museums tiptoe round the tulips, and they do not tell a story forcefully enough to enable people to put it into an historical — and perhaps even a modern — context. Will you comment on that briefly?

Mr I Wilson:

I cannot remember being in any museum in Northern Ireland in which I felt that those who were behind the concept or wrote the text had let down the people involved. When I felt that anyone was telling a skewed story —

Mr K Robinson:

I am not suggesting that the story is skewed, but that it has been tidied up to too great an extent. It is similar to the scenario of someone who is expecting visitors: all the chairs are put in order; all the newspapers are hidden; the cat is put outside, and so forth. I sometimes get that impression when I go into a museum; it has been tidied up to such an extent that the vital spark that caused the event is not communicated to visitors who, therefore, do not get the full story.

Mr I Wilson:

You are probably right about that. Museums, and any other institutions in society, can only be seen in the context of the time at which they were established — that applies to Victorian museums, for example. The character of museums is affected by the world view of the people who establish them. Decades have passed since the Holocaust, and museums have been established in different parts of the world. The time came when people gathered their courage and their wits to set up those museums. In decades to come, the way in which stories from the past are told in local museums will, undoubtedly, change. However, those who set up museums cannot be divorced from the times in which they lived.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you both very much — that was illuminating, worthwhile and very useful to the Committee. Please pass on our best regards to Mr Reid.

Mr K Robinson:

My comrade has informed me that I should declare an interest — I was a member of the Territorial Army many years ago.

The Deputy Chairperson:

You must state your name, rank and serial number. [Laughter.]

Gentlemen, Amanda — you are all welcome to the Committee. I look forward to hearing what you have to say and your doing your best to answer our questions. The Committee is holding an inquiry and I must say — although I am also a member of the Committee — that sometimes we are all inclined to wander and ask questions that are not pertinent to the inquiry. If that happens, I ask you to pull us up on it and to not wander when giving your responses. I invite Major Colin Gray to make a brief opening statement and introduce his colleagues to the Committee.

Major Colin Gray (Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group):

Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to present evidence — we are very grateful. I am the regimental secretary of the Royal Irish Regiment and, as such, am part of the management committee for the regiment and for the proposed new military gallery that we are seeking to establish.

Lieutenant Colonel Harvey Bicker is a trustee of the Royal Ulster Rifles Museum, which is based in Waring Street, Belfast. He is also part of the management committee for the proposed new military gallery. Jack Dunlop is the curator of the recently reopened Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum in Enniskillen, which is run in partnership with Fermanagh District Council. Amanda Moreno is the curator of the Royal Irish Fusiliers Museum, which is based in Armagh. Amanda is professionally qualified and, therefore, provides us with professional input from a museums perspective.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you very much. Do you have anything further to add or are you happy to go directly into questions?

Major Gray:

I do not have anything to add, but Colonel Harvey Bicker will make a brief opening statement.

The Deputy Chairperson:

A brief opening would be very welcome, thank you.

Lieutenant Colonel Harvey Bicker (Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group):

As Colin explained, I am here as a member of the management group for the new military gallery in Northern Ireland. I have also been a trustee of National Museums Northern Ireland for several years and have been reappointed.

Under a review of funding for military museums in the UK, the four military museums in Northern Ireland were identified from a funding perspective, and it was decided that they had to be reduced to one.

When considering how the social history of Northern Ireland and Ireland in general will be dealt with in the future, it is important that the military story must be told in some way. In developing the concept for a consolidated military gallery in Northern Ireland, a number of sites were examined and Cultra emerged as the preferred option. We particularly focused on the social element of the story that is missing, so that it will be available to the people of Northern Ireland in decades to come.

That is why we started this journey. We wanted to consider the options of where to site a military gallery, for which some Government funding is already available and, I hope, at no great cost to the Northern Ireland estate.

The Deputy Chairperson:

With regard to item four in your strategic recommendations, how do you envisage a policy emerging to bring about your idea of locating at the Cultra site? Is that something that you want Government or local government to do, or might it emerge from your discussions? Furthermore, have you discussed the issue with National Museums Northern Ireland? If so, at what level, and how advanced are any discussions?

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

National Museums Northern Ireland is developing a strategic policy, within which, since 25 January 2007, it had an idea to develop at Cultra the widest possible story of the social history of the people of this part of Ireland. That gave us an opportunity to have an initial meeting with the chief executive of National Museums Northern Ireland, and its director of development, and then with the then Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Mr Poots, and, subsequently, with the present Minister, Mr Campbell. I assume that, as a result of those meetings, we are now before the Committee. However, we were given to believe that that policy was only part of a wider story on the island of Ireland, and internationally.

I am a director of the Military Heritage of Ireland Trust which, with the Irish Government, developed the military galleries at Collins Barracks in Dublin, where we are still spending money. That was part of the story of the social history of the individual Irishman, or Irish person, in not only farming and industry, but even in the military and with reference to emigration.

Therefore, we were able, at Collins Barracks — which I strongly recommend that you visit, if you have not already done so — to see how that project fits in with a national museums policy to tell that social story. We have an opportunity, because of funding, to relate to that and to set up a working group in order to investigate its potential.

Mr McCarthy:

Has the fact that there has not been a museums policy been detrimental to your work?

Ms Amanda Moreno (Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group):

Given that regimental museums in Northern Ireland have been funded mostly from outside Northern Ireland, we have been left to operate on our own initiative and to find our own sources of funding. We have the use of the Northern Ireland Museums Council, which is absolutely fantastic and an excellent organisation. However, we are not an integral part of the museums structure in Northern Ireland, or at least we do not feel to be. A museums policy will bring us in as the missing strand of the overall history of Northern Ireland.

Mr McCarthy:

Do you reckon that that would benefit your work?

Ms Moreno:

Yes.

Major Gray:

One of our concerns is that, without a policy, there is no strategy in place that incorporates the military story for the whole population of the island of Ireland, including the diaspora, and that is damaging.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Will you elaborate on what you mean by the military story of the island of Ireland and how that fits into a national museums policy that is in the United Kingdom?

Ms Moreno:

Without giving a history lecture, it is as far back as only 1921-22 that the Irish soldier separated from mainland UK. Therefore, the whole history of the Irish soldier is more to do with the history of Ireland, although, since 1921-22 it becomes part of a UK story.

The Deputy Chairperson:

You are not some sort of quasi-republican military outfit, then?

Mr McCartney:

There is nothing wrong with that.

The Deputy Chairperson:

There is a difference between republicans that I meant and republicans that he meant. [Laughter.]

Ms Moreno:

We have always sought to represent the historical facts. I am glad to say that the Army has always been outside politics.

Mr Jack Dunlop (Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group):

Having served with the old Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, I can quote figures from the 1960s that indicate that the regiment was 50:50. It recruited from Donegal and Connaught, and there was a fair sprinkling of recruits from Dublin. We always sought to tell that Irish story and keep politics out of it, which is as it should be as far as we are concerned. That will continue.

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

It is also important to explain that the National Museums Northern Ireland is trying to tell the story and the social history of the people of Northern Ireland. That includes its farmers, town dwellers and emigrants, which we tell at Omagh. The industrial and maritime history has not been fully told. Within that, the story of the Irish person as a soldier is simply one more part of the social history.

The Irish Government are ahead of the game as far as this story is concerned. The Collins Barracks project will spend another €8 million on a worldwide interlink across the Irish diaspora, so that young people, if they are visiting a military gallery, perhaps at Cultra, can access information about ancestors who were involved in the American Civil War, or in the Irish brigades of the French service. There is a whole story there for the diaspora. It will provide physical historical stories in the form of the regimental archives that we have at our disposal, which are worth millions of pounds.

At one time, we had another museum that was linked to a local story. The contents of the Irish cavalry museum that was in Carrickfergus are now stored somewhere in England. My own regimental museum contains Victoria Crosses that are worth millions of pounds. That is only one small example.

The Deputy Chairperson:

That is a point well made. There are treasures that are worth millions of pounds in basement of this Building that the public do not see. It is to be hoped that a policy will bring those issues to the fore.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you for your presentation. The history of the armed services is very close to my heart. I have read your submission, which states that, as part of your policy, you intend to reduce the number of museums for which you are responsible from four to two. You also referred to a three-to-five year medium-term objective, which seems to tie in, at least partially, with using Cultra as a possible location. Have you been able to formulate that? It goes back to the point that you made, Harvey, about all the other historical evidence and artefacts that are being kept in containers on the UK mainland and the items that people keep. How can we bring all that together in Northern Ireland in order to visually express the marvellously rich history of our armed services?

I also want to ask you about the Northern Ireland regiments. I accept the point that you made about the history — that it is part of the history of Ireland, and that the Northern Ireland regiments were a part of that before 1922. How do we get that together and present it, so that it can be accessed and viewed? The Army is close to my heart, but what about the RAF and the Royal Navy?

Major Gray:

Our concept is for a single military gallery on two sites — Enniskillen and, we hope, Cultra — that will tell the story of the Irish soldier in service to the Crown.

That is merely a starting concept, and it is not exclusive to the former regiments connected to the Royal Irish Regiment. We intend to include other arms and services, and it may be entirely appropriate — without pre-determining our future strategy for the military gallery — to represent the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy, because they have an equal military history, which is part of the culture of this island.

The Deputy Chairperson:

The policy could, perhaps, include a roads policy for Enniskillen. I am conscious of time, and, although this is an interesting topic, we must move on.

Lord Browne:

Are you confident that the forthcoming museums policy will allow you to retain your separate identity? You have four separate regiments and a proud history. Furthermore, regimental museums are, perhaps, slightly different from normal museums. When you establish the museum in Cultra, do you intend to retain the regimental museum or create a museum that will appeal to the general public?

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

I have spoken to Amanda about that matter. Our concept for the future is to establish a timeline aspect in museums — even in the new Ulster Museum at Stranmillis — in order to outline the progression of events. Although the study is in its early days, we want to create a timeline of military events that demonstrates the links with the social structure and outlines why people left their farms to join the military. Those timelines will outline the formation of regiments, which will be like a little cell within each story.

We are keen to introduce an IT facility that tells the story as it evolved over the years and describes how it affected the people of Ireland, particularly the people of Northern Ireland. As Amanda said, many of the so-called Northern Irish regiments are, actually, Irish regiments. For instance, my own regiment was, originally, the County of Dublin Regiment. Therefore, we are keen to interlink our artefacts with Dublin and other places. The National Army Museum in London has direct links with Dublin. Although many of the artefacts in Collins Barracks come from London, they are Irish artefacts. Northern Ireland must play its part in the interlinking diaspora of the story. We are one small part of the overall social story.

The physical implications of situating the museum in Cultra are interesting. If no progress is made within the next couple of years, the money will be gone. We do not have a begging bowl; we have money. We should develop an iconic gallery that links with National Museums Northern Ireland. I hope that a working party will be established with National Museums Northern Ireland to investigate the potential of the Cultra site.

The Deputy Chairperson:

That sounds excellent, and you have the money. Have you held discussions with the Somme Association?

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

That is an interesting point. The Somme Association is funded by one of our local authorities. That issue could be developed differently after RPA.

The Somme Association could become part of the Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group, but then the walls would start to widen. We originally talked about funding for an area of 3,000 sq m. That is in addition to continual funding by the British Government through the Ministry of Defence (MOD) in areas such as staffing. That is our right; we want to grab that money and continue to use the capital.

The Deputy Chairperson:

So, you have the money, and you just need the policy?

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

No. We need the site, and you have it.

The Deputy Chairperson:

I better not mention Sweeney or anything like that because we could get into terrible trouble.

Mr McCausland:

How are military museums funded in England, Scotland and Wales?

Major Gray:

It is a mixture of charitable money that is raised by friends of the various museums and MOD funding. Funding depends on the classification of the museum.

Mr McCausland:

Would the revenue funding come partly from the Ministry of Defence?

Major Gray:

Yes, for example, in the area of staff. Amanda and Jack are both paid as MOD civil servants.

Mr McCausland:

Will that continue in the future?

Major Gray:

Yes.

Mr Dunlop:

As well as funding wages, the MOD also funds utilities, which is very important in our world. The upkeep of the museums is down to us as professional curators. We are responsible for keeping them going, raising money for conservation, purchasing objects and so forth. The main bills for those recognised military museums — utilities and wages — are funded.

Mr K Robinson:

Thank you very much for your presentation. I am sorry that you are pushed for time. Is your museum accredited?

Mr Dunlop:

Yes. We all represent accredited museums.

Mr K Robinson:

You talked about museums such as Les Invalides in Paris — a classic military museum — and the Museum of Military History in Vienna. In local terms, do you see yourselves aspiring to something like that — being open to the wider public rather than to those who are interested only in military matters?

If a policy existed and you had a time slot, but the money evaporated or went elsewhere, who would you need to talk to — and how quickly would you need to talk to them — to make progress? Does a specific part of the Cultra site interest you? Have you thought about the other armed forces, to which Jim Shannon referred earlier? Have you thought about the HMS Caroline situation — an absolutely unique piece of military history sitting in Belfast and in danger of going elsewhere?

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

As part of its strategy evolution from the beginning of this year, National Museums Northern Ireland conceptualised partnership development, about which it provided a statement. The possibility exists for partnerships with other museum providers — including those in Northern Ireland — to further develop the Cultra site as a National Museums Northern Ireland campus. It should be noted that approaches have already been made in respect of one existing museum provider, which is the Royal Irish Regiment Museums Group . The issue is evolutionary.

A working group should be set up between National Museums Northern Ireland and us as quickly as possible in order to evaluate whether the potential meets the criteria and the satisfaction of the Government, National Museums and all elements in our society that support the issue.

Mr K Robinson:

Who drives that process forward?

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

The trustees of National Museums Northern Ireland should make a very positive statement so that the process can be started and investigated as quickly as possible.

Mr Brolly:

Like other groups who have given evidence to the Committee, you commended the work of the Museums Council for having held the line in the absence of a formal policy. How do you react to the Department’s proposal that the examination of, and the progress towards, developing a museums policy should be given to outside consultants rather than to the Museums Council?

Major Gray:

Amanda is a member of the Museums Council, so I ask her to answer that as she is best-placed to do so.

Ms Moreno:

In 2001, the structure of area and museum councils on the mainland was completely done away with, and a new system of regional hubs was set up under the overall structure of what is now the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council. The process is still evolving — they are still trying to create a system that works.

I have been in post now for 12 years, and I have watched the Northern Ireland Museums Council grow from one member of staff to the existing structure. It had a very strong input into the development of museums in Northern Ireland. Everything that it has done has been to the benefit of the museums structure in Northern Ireland. Given the research that it has conducted over the past five years, it is in a perfect position to develop a museums policy. Indeed, a lot of work towards that has already been done. Bringing in outside consultants could only put the process back two years, because all of that research would have to be done again, or else the work would be taken from somebody else. The NIMC is best placed to do it. It has the experience, the expertise and the knowledge.

Mr Dunlop:

I agree with that.

Mr Brolly:

The outside consultants would consult with you and use your research and the work that you have already done. That would be a total waste of public funds.

Mr Dunlop:

The NIMC has led the way in providing the standard, giving us guidance on an annual basis that has been very much to the fore of our getting our initial registration and, more recently, official accreditation. The natural step that I can see is for it to carry on its good work.

Mr P Ramsey:

Good morning. You are very welcome. You presentation has had an interesting perspective in the story that you have told about the Irish soldier in a non-political and a non-contentious way.

You have told us that money is on the table and that you want to use it. Will you give us an idea of how the independent sector is funded? You talked about Ministry of Defence funding and private donations.

To go off the agenda for a bit, the army carriers, tanks and guns are now thankfully missing from our streets. I visited Budapest some years ago, and they have outdoor exhibitions of artefacts that have huge potential for the tourism industry. One can imagine the return of the army carriers and tanks and guns — I can see the potential in Derry, for example, on the city walls as part of the conflict parade. There is a particular strategic importance in the Battle of the Atlantic and our intention of trying to raise a U-boat, for example. We talked about how people can get any tank that they want on eBay nowadays for parties or birthday parties. Can you see that being provided as part of a service from a tourist point of view?

Ms Moreno:

To deal with the vehicles first, there is an excellent organisation called the Ulster Military Vehicle Club — you do not always have to own the artefacts to make use of them. You could always use what that club, which would be delighted to help. We often borrow vehicles.

Mr Shannon:

You could get one for the weekend, Pat. [Laughter.]

Ms Moreno:

Museums are the custodians of what is past, but we also have to look the future and we have to consider what will interest people in 50 or 100 years’ time. We have to collect and protect such items. The interest in the First World War only increases as years go on, and now, as Second World War veterans are dying, the interest in the Second World War continues. There can be a 50-year gap before these things become of interest. Regardless of whether we agree with what has happened in this country over the past 40 years, it is part of our history and we tell historical facts. It is up to the visitors to make up their minds about what they are seeing. We have bought the artefacts that, I hope, will enable us to tell that story.

Mr Dunlop:

We have added one or two vehicles to our new collection in Enniskillen. Not the ones that you are talking about — if you want those with guns, we would have to charge you extra. [Laughter.] We primarily deal with items from the Second World War.

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker :

I will make one point for Pat’s reference. This story goes on and on, and in tourism terms, we have had 190,000 people through the military galleries at Collins Barracks since it opened to the public.

Oceans of young people visit us every day. It is unbelievable.

We cannot even tell the story of 350,000 Americans who came to Northern Ireland on the way to North Africa and Europe — and we have those links. That story alone — tourism-wise — is astronomical. However, as I have said, 3,000 square metres is all that we can afford.

The Deputy Chairperson:

There are many storytellers around this table. [Laughter.]

In your written presentation, you make three recommendations. The Committee will address those recommendations in our considerations. They are serious and worthwhile, and I can assure you that they will be addressed.

I do not wish to minimise any other presentations, but we have heard a worthwhile presentation on all-embracing project, and we may find it valuable for you to revisit the Committee and talk through your ideas and visions for that project. As you have said, Harvey, you only require the site. If that were the case, would you be available to come back and talk to the Committee again?

Major Gray:

Absolutely. We would be delighted to.

The Deputy Chairperson:

If the Executive fails to meet for much longer, you may have a site here very quickly. [Laughter.] We will talk to the estate agents.

Mr Shannon:

Would that be with or without the tanks David?

The Deputy Chairperson:

With plenty of tanks.

Lieutenant Colonel Bicker:

I cannot leave today without telling the Committee one last story. I recently found a coffee table in a dusty corner of our regimental museum in Waring Street. That coffee table was made from the door of a railway carriage that belonged to former President Steyn — the last officer of the former Boer Republic to surrender to the British during the Boer war.

The officer who received Steyn’s surrender was a young Lieutenant Craig. When Steyn surrendered, Craig asked his Sergeant Major to take the door off the carriage, and he had it turned into a coffee table. That Lieutenant Craig later became Lord Craigavon.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Of course he did, and he is still with us.

Thank you very much for coming today. I am glad that you are amenable to come and talk to the Committee again. No doubt we will hear more stories at that stage.

The next set of witnesses are from the Ulster Sports Museum Association. Good morning, gentlemen, you are very welcome. We have just been entertained with some wartime stories. Some people will think that we are reminiscing beyond our position. However, no doubt you will prompt us to come up with some sporting stories or perhaps some ‘ Roy of the Rovers’ stuff.

Mr Spence, please introduce yourself and your colleagues, and then proceed to a short presentation. Thereafter, the members of the Committee will no doubt have some questions for you.

Mr Ronnie Spence ( Ulster Sports Museum Association):

Thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to the Committee about our exciting ideas for an Ulster sports museum. I am the chairman of the Ulster Sports Museum Association, Nigel Carr is the vice-chairman, and Ryan Feeney is a member of the management committee.

The Ulster Sports Museum Association is a not-for-profit body and is registered as a charity. It has been in operation for around two years and came into its formal existence in March of this year. By 2012, we want to create an Ulster sports museum in a building known as the Old Museum, in College Square North in Belfast. That building was the city’s original museum and is one of Belfast’s most important listed buildings.

We recently produced a short concept plan, which has been circulated to interested parties, and I believe that Committee members have seen that plan. In that concept plan, we briefly set out the case for creating a sports museum. First, we want to honour the astonishing number of sportsmen and sportswomen from Northern Ireland who are regarded as among the best in the world. Secondly, we believe that their achievements can be used as an inspiration to others, particularly young people, to become more actively involved in sport. Thirdly, sport can be a powerful contributor to building a more united and cohesive society, and greater community self-respect and self-confidence. Fourthly, a really top-class sports museum would significantly add to the attractions that Belfast has to offer visitors to the city.

A number of possible locations were considered before we opted for the old museum building as our first choice. Creating a museum there will help to preserve one of the city’s most important buildings and contribute to the regeneration of that part of the city centre. The concept plan outlines how that museum might work. We envisage one room devoted to celebrating the Ulster sportsmen and sportswomen who have achieved world-class status. Other rooms would tell the stories of the major sports, including explaining the importance of Gaelic sports, in our society. We have agreed with George Best’s family that a major feature of the museum will be the telling of his story. Finally, we envisage the museum as a place where young people can try things for themselves and find out how best to develop their interest in a particular sport.

Over the past couple of years, we have talked to a wide range of individuals, bodies and organisations with an interest in the concept of a sports museum. It is fair to say that every contact that we have had was very positive; we have had encouragement and advice from all quarters. However, we are not naive about the challenges that lie ahead. A significant sum of money needs to be raised — probably in the region of £10 million. We have to ensure that we develop a museum of international quality that is sustainable in the long term. A lot of hard work lies ahead as we move forward from our current concept plan to a fuller feasibility stage and the preparation of a business case, and we hope to do all of that over the next year. The task that we have set ourselves, to create an Ulster sports museum, is a very exciting project that should bring significant benefits to our community.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you very much, Mr Spence. Personally, I would be very supportive of your project. This is an inquiry into the development of a museums policy for Northern Ireland, and our questions will have to be configured within that remit. Members will therefore direct their questions to you in that vein.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you for that presentation. As the Chairman rightly said, witnesses are here in relation to the museums inquiry, and the strategy and policy that will emerge from that. How will the Ulster Sports Association fit within that strategy and within the new Northern Ireland museums body that will hopefully come out of this? Will such a body be able to deliver what you wish to achieve, as outlined in the presentation and submission?

I have read through the options for an Ulster sports museum and a place in Belfast has been suggested as a good location.

Should museums in general, and the sports museum in particular, be stand-alone, or should you be working on setting up in a particular location? For instance, I know that you ruled out the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum at Cultra as a possible location, but could our specific sporting history be incorporated anywhere else?

Mr Spence:

We have received tremendous support and help from the various parts of the existing museums sector: the Northern Ireland Museums Council; the Folk and Transport Museum; the Ulster Museum, and some other local museums. They have all been incredibly helpful and given us much advice.

One of our first thoughts was that a sports museum should form part of the Ulster Museum. However, we realised that a sport is a specialist subject, and a national museum cannot afford to devote a large part of its facilities to one particular theme. We also realised that the museum sector in Northern Ireland has scope for a variety of provision, such as local museums or those dealing in particular topics such as sport, policing or whatever. The future model of the museum sector is one of variety.

Members and staff in the existing museum sector have given us tremendous support and advice. Staff of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and the Ulster Museum sit on our committee and help us by offering specialist advice. They tell us about the work that they did when sport was a theme in their museums, and they made available to us the material that they produced. I cannot speak highly enough of the help that we have received from the existing sector.

Mr Shannon:

Your submission specifically mentioned the George Best story, which, given its importance, could be the basis for a museum by itself. The Committee would like many other sports to be incorporated in your ideas. Motorcycling has its champion in Joey Dunlop, and among many other sports to be incorporated are golf, rugby, and even snooker, in which Northern Ireland has had world champions. How big a museum is required to incorporate all those sports?

Mr Spence:

We contacted all the sporting organisations and asked them to nominate a person to liaise with us as we design the detail of the museum. We envisage that the museum will tell the story of all the major sports in Northern Ireland, much of it on film and available on demand. We envisage that the museum will be fairly comprehensive, although it will depend on which material is readily available and what memorabilia people are willing to make available to us.

One reason for deciding that the museum should be located in Belfast city centre is that we want it to be one of the city’s tourist attractions and part of its tourist trail. It should attract many repeat visits, not only from tourists, but from people who work and shop in the city centre and are willing to visit the sports museum as part of their Belfast experience.

The Deputy Chairperson:

To follow on from that, do you consider that sport in general has been neglected because of the lack of an overall museums policy?

Mr Spence:

We are trying to create a sports museum because there is a tremendous story to be told about sportsmen and sportswomen from all parts of the community who have achieved world and international status. Many young people today do not know about those people and what they achieved. They may have dim memories of George Best, but may not have seen film of him playing. Young people today may have heard stories about rugby players or footballers, but they do not know how good they were. They know about today’s players and how they perform. There is an important story to be told about the people from here who have excelled internationally in sport.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Could you create a space in your sports museum for Jim Shannon, who has a reputation for shooting millions upon millions of pigeons? [Laughter.]

Mr Shannon:

I am not a world champion, although I know someone who is.

Mr P Ramsey:

Good morning. You are all welcome. Yours is a highly ambitious plan, and I wish you well with it.

I am not criticising the concept, which is unique here. Is there a model outside Northern Ireland, either in Britain or Europe, from which you can learn? You have decided to locate the museum in Belfast, but will all the organisations be willing to lend you their artefacts?

Will rugby, Gaelic, and other sporting organisations give or loan you historical artefacts that they have, and probably want to hold on to? As for the subregions, which are important, would it not be desirable to ensure that everyone has proper access, perhaps by having mobile exhibitions that travel to Derry, Strangford, or wherever, so that people there can have access to them?

Mr Spence:

I will reply to that final point, and my colleagues may wish to reply to some of the earlier ones. We envisage the Ulster sports museum having facilities that can travel around the regional museums. For example, it may visit the new museum in Ballymena, and the people there would be able to add a new dimension to it, involving significant sports people from the Ballymena area.

As for looking at other museum options, there are a number of single-sport museums in the UK: a tennis museum at Wimbledon, a cricket museum at Lord’s, and a rugby museum at Twickenham. That would not really work in Northern Ireland, because the critical mass of all the sports together would be needed to make it viable. There is a very good GAA museum in Croke Park, which Ryan could say something about. That works because it has that critical mass of people. If there is going to be a sports museum in Northern Ireland, it would have to be multi-sport.

Mr Ryan Feeney ( Ulster Sports Museum Association):

I very much agree with Ronnie’s comments. There are good examples of single-sport museums in Britain and in the South. In Croke Park, there is a GAA museum that is visited by almost a million members per year; it is a very successful model. We envisage the establishment of a very strong linkage between that and the single-sport museums through the Ulster sports museum concept. As you said, Pat, we also envisage an opportunity to bring a roadshow to schools around the Province, so that people could have access to the museum. To support Ronnie’s point about Belfast, we see this as an opportunity to have a real shared space devoted to sport and the story of sport in Ulster, and Belfast is the location for that.

Mr Nigel Carr ( Ulster Sports Museum Association):

You asked whether any of the sporting organisations are likely to donate material; obviously the GAA has already collated a lot of that material in the first instance. It is our belief that other sporting organisations will be interested in making donations, although I do not represent any particular organisation. Our main concern is that a lot of material is held by individuals. For instance, few of the sporting artefacts of Mary Peters are held by any particular museum, and she would be very keen to donate those to us, as a key mover in the organisation. Without some facility in which to place them, a lot of those artefacts may well be lost to Northern Ireland. It is our belief that a lot of the sporting artefacts currently held by families and individuals will be donated for display in the museum.

Mr McCartney:

I have two questions. There is obviously a policy gap; that is why you are here. Do you think that a policy decision should be made to ensure that there is a sports museum?

Mr Spence:

When I appeared before the Committee on behalf of the Heritage Lottery Fund a few weeks ago, I gave my opinion that what was needed was an overall philosophy — a vision for the museum sector in Northern Ireland, which should be fairly flexible, and should set standards, and establish models, and so on. It should not be prescriptive; there should be room for different organisations to propose ideas such as the one that we are proposing. Local organisations should be able to come forward with proposals that are important to them and their local community. The absence of an overall museum policy at present does not inhibit us from bringing forward our ideas. It would certainly be helpful, in the medium term, to have an overall philosophy, approach and set of standards in relation to the museum sector, into which our proposal could fit neatly. We certainly envisage ourselves working very closely with both the national and the local museums.

Mr McCartney:

The second question concerns location. You mentioned the museums of sporting history at Lords, Twickenham, and Croke Park — the Nou Camp is another. Sometimes the stadium itself is as much of an attraction as any exhibition. For many people who do not have the opportunity to go to Twickenham, Lords, or Croke Park — I have been to Nou Camp, and some other such exhibitions — often the stadium itself is the attraction, as that is where the history took place.

Then, people go into the museum and see the artefacts. However, there is a resonance in the ground. Will being in a building inhibit you in any way?

Mr Spence:

We see the museum as part of the experience of the visitor to Belfast. The museum should be in a place that is accessible to all parts of the community nearly every day of the week, so that it can get repeat business. One of the options that we examined at the outset was whether the sports museum could be located at the proposed national sports stadium at the Maze. We quickly came to the view that it could not, because the Maze stadium, if it happens, will be used only for a limited number of times during the year, and it would not be the sort of place to which visitors would go on a day trip. We felt that the sports museum had to be in Belfast, as part of the Belfast experience.

Mr Feeney:

We believe that the power of having a museum that tells the story of Ulster will attract our own visitors. We have a strong plan to promote and develop the museum through the education sector and through sports. The power of having an Ulster sports museum will be an attraction in itself.

Mr K Robinson:

May I ask about the building?

The Deputy Chairperson:

I am sorry, Ken. Time is encroaching on us, and I must play fair.

Thank you for coming and making your presentation, and for introducing us to a concept that we need to look at, perhaps, under a different agenda. This inquiry is about a museums policy; I hope that we would be encouraged to say that there should be a policy that can embrace an Ulster sports museum. We would be keen to do that, having heard what you have said — I see the members nodding at that.

Nigel, can you give us any idea about whether Ulster is going to win tonight?

Mr Carr:

We have a better chance of winning tonight than we have on Saturday. I have no predictions for the weekend.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Thank you very much.

I must make an important phone call. Therefore, I must appoint someone to stand in for me.

(The Acting Chairperson [Mr McCartney] in the Chair)

The Acting Chairperson (Mr McCartney):

I welcome the representatives of the Arts Council — Ms Roisin McDonough, chief executive; Ms Noírín McKinney, director of arts development; and Mr Nick Livingston, director of strategic development. I invite you to make a five-minute opening statement, after which members will ask questions.

Ms Roisin McDonough (Arts Council of Northern Ireland):

We welcome the opportunity to address the Committee on what we believe is a very important issue, which is the absence, at present, of a dedicated gallery for historical, modern and contemporary art collections.

That has been a long-standing ambition of the artistic community in Northern Ireland. In spite of the fact that it is one of the few remaining countries in the international arena that is without the pulling power of a major gallery, we believe that the time is now ripe. It is fair to say that, under direct rule, there was an absence of political leadership on the matter. With the advent of devolution, the Programme for Government, and the investment strategy for Northern Ireland, there is now an opportunity to prove that a gallery of international standing is needed in Northern Ireland.

Policy drivers exist, such as the importance that the current Executive have attached to the regeneration objective; the creation of jobs; the promotion of cultural tourism; and, indeed, the fact that Northern Ireland must raise its profile in the international community. Those are all propitious. Northern Ireland has the most wonderful indigenous collection of art. Only 5% of that which National Museums holds is able to be displayed. Around 50% of the Arts Council’s wonderful collection is on loan and/or on tour. We are conscious of other works that we would like to display. Indeed, the Department of Finance and Personnel has its own collection.

One only has to look at the incredible reaction in visitor numbers to the Treasures of the North exhibition in the millennium wing of the National Gallery in Dublin. Tens of thousands of visitors came to see it. We believe that those works should be on display for Northern Ireland’s citizens and visitors alike.

A gallery would have all of the usual associated education, outreach and engagement facilities, as well as normal retail opportunities. I am sure that members will have framed the question, “where are you now with that proposal?” in their minds. We are about to undertake an outline business case. We work in partnership with DCAL and National Museums Northern Ireland to advance the proposal that Northern Ireland should have a gallery of that stature.

The cost of that will be tested. Initial calculations suggest that it will be around £60 million. We do not suggest that all of that should be funded from the public purse. We are aware of many high-net-worth individuals throughout the island and from Northern Ireland who could be persuaded to subscribe to such a proposition, be philanthropic and be associated with an institution of that magnitude in the international arena. That should be part of any financial strategy to take the proposal forward. Ultimately, we want the Committee to help us to realise our vision for such a gallery. We believe that the required political leadership exists. Having examined the Government’s priorities, we believe that the gallery should form a significant element.

That concludes my brief remarks. We have prepared some documentation, which has been circulated among the Committee. Of course, we are happy to take questions.

Mr P Ramsey:

Good morning, Roisin and team. Do you believe that the provision of an art gallery should be prioritised and form part of the basis of a new museums strategy? Having read your documentation, one realises that that provision would be strangled if it were to fall solely under a museums strategy and DCAL. Provision of an arts gallery would require a much broader cross-departmental approach, rather than a singular approach under the museums strategy.

I am a wee bit concerned that by bringing that objective into a museums strategy, the concept behind it could be lost. The decision to have an arts gallery should be an Executive decision that is based on funding.

Ms McDonough:

Like any important or bold ambition, someone must take the initiative. In this instance, we feel that the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, and the Department should be the champions. However, we agree that such a gallery would have a resonance across the work of other Departments. For example, by impacting on cultural tourism, jobs and the economy it would relate to the work of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI), and the regeneration aspect would relate to the work of the Department for Social Development (DSD). By projecting a positive profile of Northern Ireland as a creative and confident region in which to live, work and do business, the initiative should also involve the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM).

(The Deputy Chairperson [Mr McNarry] in the Chair)

Mr P Ramsey:

I have visited a range of European countries and have seen the importance of art galleries on cultural tourism, education and accessibility. On the one hand, as a Committee, we could champion the cause for an art gallery; however, I am still unsure as to whether it should be part of a museums strategy. Where is the link?

Ms Noírín McKinney (Arts Council of Northern Ireland):

On the back of what Roisin said, I suppose that it could sit in either place, as long as it is achieved. Finding the mechanism to make it happen is crucial. For the reasons that Roisin set out, and given the scale of the project, the initiative would need cross-departmental support rather than being understood as relevant to museums only.

Obviously, the national collections — which are held by National Museums Northern Ireland — would form the backbone of such a development, but there are other collections. Comparatively, our collection is small but it is still an important one that would greatly enhance the national collections. One would also want to attract DFP’s collection and various other private collections that are owned by some high-net-worth individuals from Northern Ireland who have substantial art work collections but nowhere to bequeath them to. The question of which mechanism will make it happen could be teased out more during the feasibility study.

Mr P Ramsey:

I am 110% behind the concept of an art gallery for Northern Ireland, but I am not certain of how we should go about creating that. Perhaps the Committee could discuss that at a later stage, separate to the discussions on the museums strategy.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Are members in agreement to that?

Members indicated assent.

Mr McCausland:

It was originally called Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI). The art gallery was always part of the old museums in Belfast.

Do you envisage a gallery having a portrait section? You mentioned that there would be modern and contemporary art — why choose modern and contemporary? Or, is modern a very expansive word?

Ms McKinney:

There would be three elements: historical art, which would cover the period up to the early twentieth century; modern art would cover the twentieth century period; and a contemporary collection. All three stands would be represented based on the holdings that exist, primarily those of the national museums. We could bring a considerable strength to that collection with contemporary Northern Irish art, but the historical and modern periods would certainly be covered very well by museum holdings.

Portraits are hugely popular with the public. However, there is not a specific vein of strength in portraits that allows me to say that we have a significant enough collection for a dedicated space to be made available in a national museum.

Mr McCausland:

There are many portraits of historical interest in private collections and in halls all over Northern Ireland — some of which are poor, but some of which are good — that could be displayed in an art gallery.

Ms McKinney:

That possibility could, indeed, be examined.

Mr Shannon:

Roisin, you said that the initial calculation of the cost of a national art gallery for Northern Ireland was approximately £60 million. That is a substantial amount to be earmarked for one part of our history. Do you have a plan B or plan C that would still deliver for you in the strategy which the Committee is examining, but that would cost less than £60 million?

Ms McDonough:

The figure of £60 million came from a Museums and Galleries Northern Ireland proposal seven years ago. It was seeking a dedicated facility that would go out to an international design competition, and have the stature, scale and ambition of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao. That project did not materialise for various reasons.

The outline business case will test the ballpark figure. I expect that there will be options, which will include a new dedicated facility, a refurbished facility, or a smaller-scale facility. Those options will be tested once we move beyond the original feasibility study to the economic appraisal, which will examine more detailed options.

We are now examining need — and there is need — and location. There was discussion as to whether it should be, as Ilex would argue, in its regeneration portfolio in the city of Derry, or whether it should be, as others would argue, here in Belfast. The feasibility study will examine those issues with regard to visitor numbers and so on.

Mr K Robinson:

In the examples in your submission, the shining light is Bilbao, and there is at least one member of the Committee who is keen to go to there in order to see it.

In Glasgow, there is the regeneration of existing buildings, the Burrell Collection, the Charles Rennie Mackintosh buildings and the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum. A critical mass is emerging there, and I am always fearful of stand-alone facilities. We have a new museum emerging in south Belfast, we have Queen’s University and associated broad artistic stuff going on around the Queen’s Film Theatre.

The Riddel Hall is architecturally outstanding, as are the grounds that surround it. Could that sort of location be adapted to afford the council the range of spaces it requires to exhibit different pieces as was referred to earlier?

If we are to go for the newbuild option, we are reaching for the moon. Although it is nice to reach for the moon, that option will be very difficult to pursue — if not impossible in the current financial circumstances. Instead, could we not build into the existing framework of other arts museums projects and develop a certain part of Belfast as a cultural zone?

I am aware that lots of interesting things have been built around St Anne’s Cathedral — and I have my own views on that. However, suitable buildings already exist in south Belfast and a suitable ethos exists there also. It is an area that tourists and local people are happy to visit as a result of its neutrality. Will you comment on that on that please?

Ms McDonough:

All the points that you make are eminently reasonable. Everyone will have their own particular preference and we must test that.

Mr K Robinson:

I wanted Newtownabbey tested.

Ms McDonough:

The drawing rooms in Titanic Quarter is currently hosting a wonderful exhibition by the Royal Ulster Academy, which is attracting people in their droves. Furthermore, the building is part of Belfast’s very powerful maritime history. One view that could be advanced is that if you are going to promote the Titanic Quarter and get people to visit there — as we all hope that they will — that that offering could be broadened to include an arts and cultural dimension. The inclusion of something other than simply the maritime history —

Mr K Robinson:

However, the critical mass would be there —

Ms McDonough:

Indeed, the critical mass would be there. We are conscious of that. That is something that the economic appraisal would test.

The Deputy Chairperson:

We are wandering a little from our remit. That remit is concerned with the inquiry into the development of a museums policy.

The Committee seems to be composing wish lists. Those are all very good given that they are being recorded in the Hansard report. However, can we please restrict ourselves to the remit?

Mr McCartney:

My question relates to what people now called the Bilbao effect. Was that a single process? Is a museum created first and the effect then follows? If we are going to attempt to create something like the Bilbao effect here, is DCAL the best Department to lead it? Would it not be better that it is led by OFMDFM, or by all Departments?

If it is going to be designed in a particular way that impacts on infrastructure, visitors, and so on, it needs a more co-ordinated approach. Was it a single process like Bilbao? If it was not, should DCAL be the lead Department or should we be aiming higher?

Mr Nick Livingston (Arts Council of Northern Ireland):

Bilbao was a beacon for what happened in relation to the social and economic regeneration in that region. There is a strong case that it should be supported at the highest level. The outcomes sought by the project — the economy, future employment and creating strength in the economy — are key principles that would have to be drawn out from the Bilbao experience.

Those beacon-type developments act as catalysts for other developments in the region, and there is a very strong argument in that favour. We must keep sight of the outcomes that we are trying to achieve with the project and not the more limited elements in meeting an immediate requirement.

Lord Browne:

It has been stated that one of the benefits of creating a new art gallery is that it will define new cultural synergies between both parts of the island. Is it not also important that the policy emphasises the connections with the rest of the British Isles?

Ms McKinney:

Absolutely. One obvious example was the Museum of Modern Art in Dublin and the synergies that could immediately be brought about through touring product and exchange. However, the same principles would also apply with the wonderful host of new venues across the UK.

There is, obviously, as always, a higher cost implication, but the Ulster Museum — when it is open — buys in touring product when its is available from the UK touring circuit. That would be a major component of such a facility.

Mr McCausland:

It is important that documents produced by the Arts Council should reflect the east-west relationship as well as the North/South one. The concern that most of us have is that that point comes through on many occasions, and North/South gets preference over east-west. I do not want to dwell on the matter, but I hope that future Arts Council documents will reflect the east-west relationship as part of the United Kingdom.

The Deputy Chairperson:

I am sure that that will be noted.

Have you had discussions with other key players who are interested in developing a policy for an arts gallery?

Ms McDonough:

Yes. We have been having those discussions over several years. We have talked to the Tourist Board, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, the national museums and Belfast City Council at officer level. We have also talked to people that one would expect to be key partners in such an endeavour. Furthermore, we have talked to some private developers, because the cost of the project and its future sustainability is uppermost in our minds. We have done some preliminary work.

It is fair to say that when we move in the circles that we do, and not just in the artistic community — passionate though it is about the issue — there are others who ask what is available for people when they come to our cities. The expectations of international travellers are much higher these days, as are those of our own citizens who travel abroad and visit galleries. The absence of an art gallery here is constantly being remarked on. There is a wide-ranging sense that we need one.

The Deputy Chairperson:

If one of the Saatchi brothers is there, you might refrain from the type of art that he would want to bring to Belfast. I do not think that many people would queue up for it, but that is a personal opinion. They are not queuing up where he is putting it on, but he has plenty of money.

Thank you for coming. You are becoming very familiar and welcome faces at our Committee meetings. Long may that continue.

Ms McDonough:

Thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson:

Members, would it be fair to say, for the record, that it is the Committee’s opinion that we want to hear more about the concepts behind the military ideas and the sports and arts ideas? I do not believe that today’s presentations are suitable for our inquiry and its remit. When we reflect on the time that we have spent, there are more issues that we will have to return to. Are members content to return to those matters under a different heading?

Mr P Ramsey:

I concur entirely. We have had our own research team here today, but I imagine that any examination of a museums strategy must also consider the economic value of the different elements, and how we can examine, in particular, the independence of the regiments that were here this morning. I was fascinated by their story. There is an economic value in tourism as well. The concept of an art gallery, although it does not fit into a museums strategy, is a key infrastructure element that we do not have. What are the economic benefits? Nick Livingston tried to elaborate on the aspects of social development and urban regeneration in other European cities. The art galleries have changed the landscape of those cities.

The Deputy Chairperson:

It undoubtedly has.

Mr P Ramsey:

As part of this inquiry, how do we obtain the evidence base to ensure that one of the key objectives will be to establish a centre of excellence for the preservation of sports infrastructure, the arts gallery, and for all of the other elements? I say that for staff to take note of at some stage.

The Deputy Chairperson:

That is highly relevant. We need to ascertain what research can be developed in order for us to move on to another element that can be attached to our inquiry. That will be key to the inquiry’s outcome. We will also probably need to find out how many acres there are at the Cultra site.