COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

OFFICIAL REPORT

(Hansard)

Inquiry into the Development of a Museums Policy for Northern Ireland

2 October 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:
Mr Craig McGuicken ) Derry City Council

Ms Clare Mullen ) Strabane District Council
Mr Adrian Beattie )

Mr William Moore ) The Apprentice Boys of Derry
Mr Jim Brownlee )
Mr Alistair Simpson )

Mr Eamonn McCann ) The Museum of Free Derry
Mr Tony Doherty )
Mr Adrian Kerr )

The Chairperson (Mr McElduff):

We move to the Committee’s inquiry into the development of a museums policy. Members should note that, following their briefing to the Committee on 11 September, the National Trust supplied additional information, which is included in members’ information packs. Also included is an outline plan or timetable for the inquiry.

The Committee Clerk:

There are three more evidence sessions today, starting off with witnesses from Derry City Council and Strabane District Council, and then from two independent museums. The Committee may wish to focus on exploring the links that those councils have with the wider national museums sector. For the independent museums, the Committee may wish to tease out the relationships between the independent sector and local councillors, other museums, and the Northern Ireland Museums Council (NIMC), to get a feel of how they see themselves fitting into the wider museums sector.

Mr P Ramsey:

Will the Department and the Minister be involved at any stage to outline their approach and thoughts?

The Chairperson:

Yes, Pat. The forward work programme shows that the Committee will be hearing directly from the Minister at the latter stage of the inquiry, and he will be supported by senior departmental officials.

I draw members’ attention to two sets of suggested questions. Normally, Kieran leads off on the absence of a museums policy.

Mr McCarthy:

I will take questions 1, 2 and 3.

Mr P Ramsey:

I will take questions 10 and 11.

The Chairperson:

One set of questions is relevant to the independent museums; the other to the councils. Members can support one another in their lines of questioning.

Mr McCartney:

I am a trustee of the Bloody Sunday Trust, which runs the Museum of Free Derry. What is the protocol in respect of that?

The Chairperson:

At this point in the meeting, I ask members to declare any potential interests. I am a member of Omagh District Council.

Lord Browne:

I am a member of Belfast City Council and a trustee of the Somme Association.

Mr K Robinson:

I am a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr P Ramsey:

I am a member of Derry City Council.

Mr McCausland:

I am a member of Belfast City Council.

Mr McCarthy:

I am a member of Ards Borough Council.

Mr Shannon:

I am a member of Ards Borough Council and a member of the Comber branch of the Apprentice Boys. That branch represents a very important part of our history, because its members found the letter that ultimately told of the siege of Derry. We were then able to win that great battle.

The Chairperson:

As I said previously, Jim, you make annual visits to this city.

Mr Shannon:

I usually come with a band and in a bus.

Mr Brolly:

Jim still has the bruises to prove it.

Mr McCartney:

I am a member of the Bloody Sunday Trust.

The Committee Clerk:

No member is prevented from asking questions. All members have declared their interests, and they are free to ask questions.

The Chairperson:

A copy of the written submission from Derry City Council is at tab 9. The council is the first of four groups this morning. I invite Mr Craig McGuicken to join us at the table. Mr McGuicken is the acting head of Derry City Council heritage and museums service. Craig will make an opening statement, after which there will be an opportunity for members to ask questions. Craig, you are very welcome to the Committee meeting.

Mr Craig McGuicken ( Derry City Council):

Thank you very much for the opportunity to come here today. I am the acting head of the Derry City Council heritage and museums service. I have worked for the council for approximately nine months. Before that, I worked for the Arts Council of Northern Ireland for a couple of years, and for the Somme Association, which has an independent museum. I have also worked for the Northern Ireland Museums Council; the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland; the Library Service; the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum; the National Trust; and the Ulster Historical Foundation — so I have significant heritage-sector experience.

The Derry City Council heritage and museums service collects, manages and presents the history and heritage of the region; enabling enjoyment and learning for all and the enrichment of people’s lives. It is very important to point out that Derry City Council has a great track record in the way that it manages its museums and the resources that it puts into them. The budget for the museums service is almost £1 million, which is very significant.

We have five museums — the Foyle Valley Railway Museum; the Harbour Museum, which is a maritime museum; the Workhouse Museum, which deals with the history of the city workhouse, the Battle of the Atlantic and a reminiscence project; the Amelia Earhart Centre; and the Tower Museum, which is the flagship of the service. During 2007-2008, those museums received almost 35,000 visitors.

The museums service will lead the council’s efforts in a number of projects, including the application for World Heritage status and the Plantation of Ulster commemoration programme, which is crucial to Derry and the wider region. We will develop the Foyle Valley Railway Museum, and we will also be involved in developing the heritage components of the Ebrington site, which will hopefully include a maritime museum and an archive.

The Chairperson:

Thank you for your presentation and written submission, Craig.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you very much for your presentation. Has the fact that Northern Ireland does not have a museums policy had a detrimental effect on the work with which you are involved? If it has, will you outline the nature of that detrimental effect?

Mr McGuicken:

It has had a detrimental effect. The museums sector overall has developed without regard to strategy: the geographic and thematic or subject spread is haphazard. The sector in Northern Ireland is dependent on local authorities. Some have been good, some not so good, and standards have differed widely. The independent sector in Northern Ireland is underdeveloped, by comparison with other areas. There is a lack of joined-up leadership.

The Northern Ireland Museums Council has done a good job of linking sectors, but there has been a lack of cohesion among national, local-authority and independent museums. In Northern Ireland, central Government support for non-national museums is weaker than in other areas of the UK. I will return to that point. In other parts of the UK, there are schemes such as the Designation Scheme, ‘Renaissance in the Regions’ in England, and the Recognition Scheme in Scotland. There has been free entry to national museums in most parts of the UK since 2001-02. The general feeling in Northern Ireland is that we have been left behind.

Mr McCarthy:

In your opinion, the sooner a policy is developed, the better?

Mr McGuicken:

Yes.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you, Mr McGuicken, for your very direct submission, which is nonetheless full of good content. I am impressed by what you do; it is tremendous. In reading your submission, I was struck by the number of visitors to the wealth of history that you have in the Maiden City. You are in the middle of what is important.

We are gathering ideas on how best museums can work together across the Province. Your city council has been very supportive: I saw two members of this Committee smiling from ear to ear when you made those comments. They appreciate what has been happening. What would a museums policy contain that would be of value to you and your museum? Would it assist you in carrying out your work?

Mr McGuicken:

Do you want me to say what I think a museums policy should contain?

Mr Shannon:

Yes.

Mr McGuicken:

A museums policy must have a vision for what museums in our society can be and do, and that must be different from what has gone before. We must change the way that we think about, look and use museums. We should think of them as an integral part of the way in which we live our cultural and social lives. They should be used and perceived more as libraries are; they should be a more regular part of life.

The policy should include a vision of what the sector should — and aspire to — look like. It should reflect museums’ core values: the fact that we are about collecting artefacts, showing them to the public and improving access to them. It needs to have a strong research basis: much stronger than anything previously produced. We need evidence to show the value of museums and of what they do. It should also show the breadth of what museums can achieve: they are not just about tourism or preserving the past, but about regeneration, good relations, economic development and education.

There are many things museums can do. The policy must include strategies for development, and the structures and responsibilities. It must emphasise accreditation: without that, it will lose focus. It must set out how central Government will support local museums; how the three museums sectors interlink; and it must contain an implementation plan.

Mr Shannon:

Do you think entrance to museums should be free? The policy must address that. You drew a comparison with libraries; can an entrance fee be charged in libraries?

Mr McGuicken:

Museum admission should be free. One must decide what museums should do: are they more than just a part of the tourist industry?

If the idea is to get people to use museums regularly, they should be in a position to visit a museum once a week — for example, they could visit it with their children for 15 minutes or half an hour and then go shopping. Museums should be used in that way — almost like a drop-in facility. I believe that museums should be free.

Mr Shannon:

You mentioned 35,000 visitors — is that the total number of visitors to all four museums that you look after?

Mr McGuicken:

It was the total for that year. It is important to bear in mind that one of those museums was closed for most of the year. Therefore, the visitor figures should be nearer to 40,000.

Mr Shannon:

I asked that because I would have thought that the number of visitors to museums in the Maiden City would have been higher, given the number of people who visit the city. I wonder whether something more could be done to promote museums here. Do you consider the promotion of museums on a Province-wide basis to be a good strategy, or should it be done locally?

Mr McGuicken:

I believe that museums should be promoted on a Province-wide basis. It is a matter of how we, as a society, use our museums; it is important to change our perception of them. Museums are not just a place to go for a day out or to bring relatives once a year.

Mr P Ramsey:

Craig, you are very welcome to the Committee. Will you tell us about the capital funding arrangements for the museums that are managed and controlled by Derry City Council? Will you also put the importance of the independent sector into perspective? You told us about your visitor numbers, and we will hear from the other two sectors later. Will you tell us how the council is helping to build the community-driven infrastructure?

Mr McGuicken:

Derry City Council is fairly standard in that it provides the local authority museum service, and the vast majority of funding is rates based. The museums occasionally obtain funding from other sources — for example, the Northern Ireland Museums Council is supportive of project work, such as the purchases of artefacts. Project funding is available from the Heritage Lottery Fund and from various trust-type sources — the Honourable the Irish Society, for example. Derry City Council has been quite successful in obtaining capital funding from the Northern Ireland Tourist Board.

I have said before that the different sectors should be interlinked. Derry City Council operates in that way to an extent, though the wider story of Derry project, which is based around how the council links with community groups. The council has provided support through its heritage and museum service. However, it has also provided support through other parts of the council — such as economic development and tourism — to museums such as the Museum of Free Derry, the Apprentice Boys of Derry, St Columb’s Cathedral, and the Long Tower Church project. That is a good example of how a more joined-up approach works. The infrastructure for museums services in the Derry City area is very strong.

Mr P Ramsey:

The outline of your work experience shows that you have a variety and depth of knowledge. Who do you feel should take a strategic lead in developing museums strategy? In your experience, do you know of a model outside Northern Ireland that could be used as a model of best practice to help with the development of the museums service?

Mr Brolly:

You mention that you have an association with the Republic — is funding available from Dublin on a cross-border basis? Is it possible to develop a link with the various historic and interesting facilities in Donegal, particularly the Inishowen area?

Mr McGuicken:

We have received funding from the Heritage Council on an occasional basis. Recently, it provided us with funding for an architectural exhibition. We have a very good link with Donegal County Council, and we work with it on several projects. For example, we are working with it on the Plantation project.

We have a strong and active working relationship with Donegal County Council. We are also seeking to develop a link between the Boyne Heritage Centre and the Plantation programme.

Mr P Ramsey:

Are you aware of any models — perhaps in Britain or the Republic of Ireland — where the private sector provides capital for museum services? If so, what are your thoughts on those models?

Mr McGuicken:

There is not much that I can say on that matter. The starting point for the development of a museums policy should be a consideration of the local museum and heritage review, which was conducted from the late 1990s until about 2003. A museums policy must reflect the diversity of museums today. Central Government’s approach to museums tends to reflect the situation in the early 1990s, when four national museums accounted for around 90% of all museum visitors. Nowadays, the national museums account for about 55% of visitors. The strategy should be led by independents, local authorities, national museums, DCAL and NIMC.

Mr McCausland:

Some local authorities are more proactive than others in respect of museums. How would a strategy framework encourage local authorities and politicians to recognise the value of museums and increase their commitment to museums? Would a museums policy raise awareness of museums? How would that be done?

Mr McGuicken:

The current system does not accurately reflect museums in Northern Ireland or Ireland. A museums policy would redress that inadequacy, and it must accurately reflect the importance of the three sectors.

For various reasons, the independent museum sector is very weak in Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK. The independent sector brings something different to museums. Local authorities in Northern Ireland have developed greatly, and some of the best museums are independent or local-authority museums. Those museums have taken massive strides over the last 15 or 20 years. Most of the really good capital and infrastructure development is also related to independent and local-authority organisations. Examples of that are the Ballymena museum, the Tower Museum in Derry and — in the wider cultural sector — the arts centres in Omagh and Strabane.

The museums strategy must reflect the changed circumstances and the need for central Government to allocate more resources to local authorities. The Designation Scheme has proved very successful and led to a renaissance in the museum sector in other regions of the UK. We feel that Northern Ireland has been completely left behind. The difference in the way that projects have been carried out in Northern Ireland compared to England and Scotland is startling. If local authorities were adequately resourced, it would make our argument much stronger.

Mr McCartney:

What has the Museums Council’s role been regarding the introduction of a museums policy? What should that role be in the future?

Mr McGuicken:

The Museums Council has played a crucial role. The improvements in the museums sector in the last 20 years are down to the Northern Ireland Museums Council. The Museums Council has not been well resourced over the years, but it has made an enormous difference with the relatively little amount of funding that it has had.

We only have to look at the situation. In the early 1990s, there were four national museums and a handful of other museums. Now, there are four national museums and 38 other registered museums. The situation has changed completely. Much of that is down to the Museums Council and to accreditation — or registration, as it was previously; and the idea that how good a museum is and whether it meets certain standards can be measured.

The Museums Council has expanded the sector. It has increased expertise and professionalism. Nowadays, local museums’ professionalism is just as high as that of national museums. That could not have been said 20 years ago. Visitor numbers have increased. At present, 55% of visits to museums in Northern Ireland are to non-national museums. My comments sound like an anti-national-museums rant; it most certainly is not. National museums do a great job. However, balance is needed. The Museums Council has increased access greatly. It has improved connections among different sectors. Its management of specific projects, such as the Their Past, Your Future project, and its channelling of funding have been useful. It has assisted local authorities.

As I said, policy must be based on accreditation. The Museums Council’s functions must be developed. If it goes, that is one thing; however, its functions must be developed and built upon. I feel strongly that the Museums Council must remain at least until the policy is in place. After that, its functions must be carried on by a new organisation.

Lord Browne:

One of museums’ aims should be to introduce young people to civil society in a free space in which they can operate. Do you have any connections with local colleges and universities? What input do you receive from young visitors to museums?

Mr McGuicken:

There is not a great level of relationship with universities and colleges. Most museums in Northern Ireland do not have a particularly strong link at that level. There is no reason why there should not be such a link. When I worked for the Somme Association, we carried out a schools-conferencing project to prepare schoolchildren for university. The association still runs that project, which is highly successful. Many such measures can be taken.

Education is museums’ strongest purpose. Many museums are aimed at primary-school children. That focus should be changed. The concept of education and lifelong learning should be museums’ main direction.

Lord Browne:

Have museums received financial assistance from the private sector? Have you approached the private sector? Do you believe that it should be encouraged to take part in funding museums?

Mr McGuicken:

It definitely should. I am keen to find ways that the economic sustainability of museums can be improved. Generally, Northern Ireland has a poor record of private-sector funding for museums, arts and culture. It is, undoubtedly, the worst performing area in the UK when it comes to private giving or commercial sponsorship of culture. The best source for that in the UK is the annual review by Arts and Business. I would love to find ways to replicate that in Northern Ireland. However, it is difficult.

The Chairperson:

I shall ask Francie and Ken to group their questions. Please answer them both together. Thank you, Craig.

Mr Brolly:

When we talk about museums, it is usually to try to persuade people to visit the Tower Museum or another such museum. However, my notion of Derry is that the city is a museum. Previously, I have spoken of a museum without walls — although that could not be said about Derry. I am thinking about activities such as city tours, for example. The city of Derry should be marketed as a composite of its museums. The notion that the museums are separate from, say, Martin McCrossan’s tours — although they do visit them — should be removed. That should also bring in other activities, such as the Columcille trail. Although Derry is a walled city, I describe its greater area as “a museum without walls”.

The Chairperson:

And your question is? [Laughter.]

Mr K Robinson:

Thank you very much for your presentation, Craig, which mirrored a presentation that we heard last week from Mid-Antrim Museums Services. It is very useful for the Committee to hear about enthusiasm and vision linked together with practicalities and process. Craig seems to be generally in favour of a museums policy and I have two specific questions for him. First, how do we take the policy forward? Secondly, can he outline — after that long spiel by my colleague — the key elements that should be in such a policy?

Mr McGuicken:

The starting point should be the local museum and heritage review. There was huge disappointment in the museums sector that that did not really go anywhere; a lot of good work was done on that review, and it is worth revisiting. The policy should be based on accreditation, and the current structures, such as the Northern Ireland Museums Council, should be maintained until the policy is finalised. It must reflect the diversity of our museums and it should be led by a steering group, which is representative of — broadly speaking — all three museum sectors, central Government, and local government.

The most important element, as I said, is the vision for what museums can do, and that vision has to be different from what has gone before. For me, it is about how we develop our audience, how we interact with the public, and how we get people to look at and use museums in a different way. We need to move museums to the centre of our social, cultural, and educational lives. The policy should reflect the core values of museums and have built into it a research element —somewhere that we can provide evidence of the work that museums do. I know that it is difficult for all cultural sectors to provide evidence of that, but it is very important that we do.

The policy should reflect the breadth of what museums do and include strategies for the development of the sector, its structures and responsibilities. A museums policy should emphasise how central Government can change their remit a wee bit to look more at the local museums authorities, independents, how the sectors interlink, and at the implementation of such a policy. Following the local museum and heritage review, that implementation aspect is crucial.

Mr K Robinson:

I congratulate Derry City Council on extending the educational processes beyond primary schools into secondary schools and, as Wallace said, to further education colleges and perhaps even to some university students.

The Chairperson:

Craig, thank you for your presentation and for answering our questions. When formulating our response, the Committee will definitely take into account what you have said. The next presentation will follow a similar format and is from Clare Mullen and Adrian Beattie, representing Strabane District Council.

The Committee Clerk:

Chair, we have a copy of the local museum and heritage review that a number of witnesses have talked about. That document was submitted to DCAL in 2001 and we will copy it for members.

The Chairperson:

Craig made specific reference to that review, and said that we should revisit it so as not to lose out on its value.

I would like to formally welcome Adrian Beattie and Clare Mullen, the representatives of Strabane District Council. It is my understanding that Clare is the acting community support officer, and Adrian is the museum curator. We shall discuss Strabane District Council, Gray’s Printing Press Museum, and other matters relating to the council area. I hand over to the witnesses.

Ms Clare Mullen (Strabane District Council):

For the past 10 years, Strabane District Council has had a leasing agreement with the National Trust for Gray’s Museum.

We are reviewing that leasing agreement. In particular, we are reviewing the sustainability of our position in Gray’s Museum, and deciding whether to move towards a schools outreach education museum service.

Over the past 10 years, much of our support has come directly from NIMC. Ours is a small museum, as members know. The accreditation scheme has facilitated and promoted the sustainable development of Gray’s Museum to date, with the establishment of agreed standards for the collection’s care and museum management.

We consider that lack of a formal museums policy has led to a lack of direction in the service from the bottom up, particularly from the local council’s perspective. It has led to uncertainty and lack of focus in the service as to where it sits in the Government’s agenda. It leaves local elements of developing and maintaining our heritage — including education and learning — more vulnerable, and makes it more difficult to link into other strategies, including those on tourism and education.

We are unaware of any departmental guidelines. We abide by the Museums and Galleries (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 , which broadly outlines the governance of museums.

With respect to our policy framework, we have followed the advice and guidance of NIMC alone. That is the only strategic direction provided for the museums sector. In councils, museums have been incorporated into an overall agenda, and no specific policy has been developed for them.

Museums are an important aspect of our community development agenda. They help to maintain senses of identity, place and civic pride, and they serve as a learning resource for schools.

There has been no private investment. Strabane District Council has invested some £55,000 annually in developing a museums service over the past 10 years. It has obtained small sums in grant aid from NIMC and the Heritage Lottery Fund to help to develop the outreach service and purchase of artefacts.

Our knowledge of museum services outside Northern Ireland is limited. We have focused on developing local relationships, in particular on a cross-border basis with Donegal County Council. Adrian will provide examples of projects that we have undertaken jointly with Donegal County Council, which provides substantial funding for its heritage products.

NIMC has developed an intelligence-based survey of museum collections, mapping trends and learning strategies. That is the fundamental block on which the museums policy should be based.

We recommend that any policy devised by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure should take into consideration that there are two pools of experiences: the National Museums Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Museums Council. Of the two, the Museums Council has the most relevant experience — it is at the coalface and works with local museums on a daily basis. We recommend that those organisations should be used to facilitate any new policy — along with local councillors and other key stakeholders.

The Northern Ireland museums policy should be developed in consultation with the whole sector and other key sectors, which the Committee is doing. The policy must address the impact of devolved Government and the new arrangements proposed by the review of public administration (RPA). The policy should strengthen museums and local authorities in a way that ensures sustainability and security of service and maintains critical NIMC service.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you for your presentation. I have a personal interest in Strabane because it is where my mother was from. You have an education and outreach officer. You stated that you received money from the Heritage Lottery Fund to pay for that and that the funding stopped in 2007 due to the lack of core funding. How critical do you feel that it is to have an educational outreach in your museums? You are obviously disappointed that the funding was discontinued, but I would like to get your opinion on that subject.

Furthermore, have you had any contact with the Northern Ireland Museums Council? If so, what way has it assisted you? Has it given you advice, offered support or promoted your museum?

Mr Adrian Beattie (Strabane District Council):

To call me a curator is a bit of a misnomer. I am the main museum worker and do have some curatorial duties.

With respect to the educational issue, it is an ongoing battle in Strabane to bring schoolchildren through the doors of any institution and establish an awakening of history in them.

I am from Enniskillen in County Fermanagh, and I have loved history from an early age. However, I was one of the very few people in my class who did. There was a general dislike of history in my school, and in every gallery of war criminals ever created by my classmates, our history teacher — Mr Burns — always figured prominently. I swear that that is the case, and we still hang an effigy thirty years later. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson:

Are you speaking on behalf of Strabane District Council when you say that? [Laughter.]

Mr Beattie:

I am speaking on behalf of the dispossessed people of 1962 Enniskillen. [Laughter.]

Fortunately, our education officer in Strabane District Council is a man called Mr John Dooher, who is a great lover of history. He was previously a teacher in the local secondary school and has created a new dynamic and invoked a reawakening of interest in history.

At a lower level, I visit schools with my box of tricks. I try to bring the First World War and the Second World War to life in schools. That includes schools of all denominations in Strabane and the surrounding district. For example, some years ago we held an exhibition about a young man named Robert Pollock from Artigarvan, outside Strabane. He joined the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers of the 36 th ( Ulster) Division. I brought his story to schools across Strabane that would not usually have been so receptive to that type of story.

As part of the project we read letters from Robert, which were discovered by an old lady in her attic. The letters themselves were not concerned with graphic descriptions of battles in the war but instead contained lines such as: “Don’t send me any more cakes ma, the last time they came they were as hard as rocks. Send me Leckpatrick butter. Is Francie still working in Buchanan’s?”

I brought those letters together with other artefacts from the wars to the schools, and it worked. If a child can touch a German helmet, an incendiary bomb, a dagger or some morphine capsules from the war and you can explain that a shell fuse with dirt on it is from the Somme, it is like turning on a light.

We did not have that in the school that I went to. We did not have visitors coming in, laying out a set of objects and allowing us to touch them. Museums are usually about viewing artefacts in glass cages, but when you can go to a school and ask the children to touch the items or wear a helmet or a gas mask, it works very well.

Mr Dooher began that process and I started to think about it. We are not currently situated in the Gray’s Museum. However, we do provide a museum service to schools and all of the objects are safely and properly stored.

We are not solely concerned with warfare. Indeed, we have a selection of medical equipment, such as a do-it-yourself electric shock machine from the early twentieth century. That would have been used as a cure for eccentric relatives.

However, it was NIMC — I am sorry; I am trying to get back to the original question but I am flapping a little here. [Laughter.]

Mr P Ramsey:

The Committee is more interested in your school experiences. [Laughter.]

Mr Beattie:

I started off as a tour guide, so I am on a roll —

The Chairperson:

And your answer is? [Laughter.]

Mr Beattie:

No. The NIMC is the safety net and always has been. We were a one-person operation, but, through the NIMC, and working with Johnny Dooher, the education officer, we got leaflets and all sorts of publicity material. There were even training days to learn how to lift objects properly, and at which I used to sneer. The NIMC is there for us, and always has been.

Ms Mullen:

The NIMC also provided some small financial support for the purchase of certain artefacts.

Mr Beattie:

Oh, yes. We get money to buy reasonably-priced objects.

Ms Mullen:

Adrian has made clear the importance of the education outreach service in making contact with local schoolchildren. In school, they may learn about history in a broad sense, but when they see that history has local connections it comes alive for them. We want to develop links with the schools curricula with regard to culture and heritage.

Mr Beattie:

It is important to maintain local links, because, with RPA, communities will be absorbed, and we could become part of another council. Therefore, it is important to preserve this local identity for schoolchildren to show them that this is Strabane and this is how Strabane people lived.

Mr Shannon:

I am sure that the Committee could make use of that electric shock equipment. [Laughter.]

Mr Beattie:

You may very well think that, but I could not possibly comment.

Mr K Robinson:

When RPA is fully implemented, documents sometimes have to be tidied away or shoved in the bin. Please guard against losing vital documents. It is so easy to physically lift them and put them somewhere safe.

Mr Beattie:

As per the museums code of ethics, there is a strong presumption against the disposal of material culture — that is my line.

Mr McCausland:

What is the nature of the relationship between Gray’s Museum and the National Trust? Another place in the Strabane area with relevance to the Ulster/American story is Woodrow Wilson’s ancestral home. Who owns that?

Mr Beattie:

The cottage, at Dergalt, is owned by the National Trust.

Mr McCartney:

Part of the work of the Committee is to examine the need for a museums policy. What do you think that the Museums Council future role should be?

Mr Beattie:

We were National Trust tenants at the Gray’s Museum site. The trust maintained the printing house at the back, which contained all the machines and paraphernalia of printing, and we occupied the ground floor at the front of the shop and the first-floor gallery space. We managed because it was such a small operation. During low season, I took visitors round the National Trust part of the property and showed them the printing press. It was a simple relationship.

Ms Mullen:

We worked in partnership on service delivery.

Mr McCausland:

Did you say that the National Trust owns Woodrow Wilson’s ancestral home?

Mr Beattie:

It does. I believe that Dergalt impinges on the Omagh District Council area. The Ulster American Folk Park furnishes the interior of the cottage.

Ms Mullen:

Given that our museum is small, NIMC has been vital for us. That support should continue in order for us to continue, and it should be strengthened.

Mr P Ramsey:

Given your limited resources, you have clearly been very creative, and that is to be welcomed. Do you have any knowledge of the museum service outside the Strabane area? The Committee is examining how best to proceed with a museums strategy. Can you suggest any models of best practice?

Mr Beattie:

Over the past several years, there has been a proliferation of heritage facilities. The only institutions that I know about across the border are the larger institutions, such as the National Museum of Ireland, the national folklife collection at Castlebar and the Hunt Museum in Limerick. Our operation is small, which is why I return to the Northern Ireland Museums Council. The NIMC does great work for people who, for example, have a bicycle collection in Swatragh. The Irish Museums Associations is the umbrella organisation for the larger museums, but I am not sure about the smaller places.

Ms Mullen:

In a wider sense, perhaps we should examine how services are supported across the border in the Republic of Ireland and across the water in the UK, because a substantial amount of money is invested into services those places.

Mr McCarthy:

You answered part of my question earlier when you said that the lack of a museums policy means that you suffer from a lack of direction and uncertainty. Will you give the Committee a clear example of how your work has been affected?

Ms Mullen:

Any high-level strategy filters down to a local level and provides a strategic direction for local government and the operation of district councils. It provides direction for the level of importance museum services should be accorded on the agenda of local councils. We have relied heavily on the NIMC and our officers for their knowledge, and so forth. We work with the community, which is essential, and ask people what services they want Strabane District Council to maintain, and we also work with local schools and link in to their curricula. However, a stronger focus on the future direction of museums is required, and that would benefit everyone.

Mr K Robinson:

How do you bottle the enthusiasm that drives so many schemes forward? I am fearful that the implementation of strategies — albeit I accept that they are necessary — causes people to lose their enthusiasm. If a spark of enthusiasm can be created in young people of school age, they will maintain it throughout their lives, and, therefore, educational experience must be built into the policy. Before you chide me for not asking my question, Chair, I had to listen to you on the radio this morning.

[Laughter.]

Clare, how should the policy progress to ensure that the enthusiasm is retained and, at the same time, that the necessary structures are in place to expand the policy and progress it?

Ms Mullen:

Community consultation is crucial. The local community groups must be given an opportunity to have their say, and local schoolteachers asked how to link into the curriculum and make the subject come alive for children. At the top level, it is a matter of working with the strategic operators to ensure that their involvement is maintained.

Mr Beattie:

You could talk to the experts on the Northern Ireland Museums Council, the heads of the Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI) and to the large institutions. However, I suggest simply going into communities and asking them how they want their story to be told. I am sorry if that sounds simplistic.

Mr K Robinson:

Is Sion Mills in the Strabane area?

Ms Mullen:

Yes.

Mr K Robinson:

There is a classic museum there with mill workers, and so forth.

Ms Mullen:

A building preservation trust is working to revitalise it.

The Chairperson:

Thank you to Adrian and Clare for attending the meeting, giving their presentation and answering our questions.

Mr McCartney:

We will not report you to your history teacher. Everything was said in camera.

Mr Beattie:

Should I become a history teacher, I will probably become equally hated.

The Chairperson:

The Committee will now hear from representatives of the Apprentice Boys of Derry. Good morning gentlemen and thank you for attending. Jim, perhaps you would introduce your team, outline the various positions that you hold, and make your opening statement, and then we will ask questions. You are very welcome.

Mr Jim Brownlee (The Apprentice Boys of Derry):

We are here to represent the Associated Clubs of the Apprentice Boys of Derry. I am the current governor of the association. With me is William Moore, the general secretary of the association, and Alistair Simpson, the previous governor of the association. Our presence here today is in relation to our museum in the Memorial Hall, one section of which is dedicated purely to telling the story of the siege of Londonderry in 1688-89, the history of that siege, the consequential formation of the Associated Clubs of the Apprentice Boys of Derry and the history of that association. In addition, there are further exhibits in the hall that reflect the history of the city through artefacts, pictorial history and narrative history. That is a basic overview of what people would see if they were to visit the museums — plural — in the Memorial Hall.

Mr William Moore (The Apprentice Boys of Derry):

Our meeting rooms are also open to the public during the summer months or by prior arrangement. Lots of tourists and visitors are very keen to see meeting rooms that are still in use. Those are part of the living history of the Apprentice Boys Memorial hall, and it is valuable to be able to view and visit them.

Mr Alistair Simpson (The Apprentice Boys of Derry):

I am here today in my capacity as treasurer of the Walkers’ Trust, the group that deals with all funds provided for the extension of the Memorial Hall, and also deals with the plinth at Walkers Corner.

Lord Browne:

You are welcome. Given that your organisation operates an independent museum, do you feel that, if a museums policy is drawn up, it could be overprescriptive, and that you might lose some of the independent control and ability to make your own decisions about the museum? How do you feel that a museums policy should incorporate that independence, and allow flexibility in making your own decisions? Finally, how is the museum funded?

Mr Moore:

The easy answer to your final question is that we do not receive funding for the museum. However, during July, August and September, we received some funding from Derry City Council, which enabled us to employ two part-time workers as tour guides, and also for security purposes. That enabled us to keep the doors of the hall open during those months to allow visitors and tourists to have a look at the artefacts relating to our association and to the siege of Derry.

Mr P Ramsey:

You are very welcome to this morning’s session. The museum tells the wider story of the city of Derry. Will you enlighten the Committee about the actual contents of the museum and the artefacts that you are trying to preserve? What capital is required for the building, and where is that money coming from? What does the availability of access to the museum mean to the economy of the city?

Mr A Simpson:

In response to your last question, it is very important that the museum remain in the Memorial Hall, as that is where our members met, prior to parading over the walls, which was very contentious, as you well know, Pat — you were in the middle of it along with me.

Mr Shannon:

You were on different sides. [Laughter.]

Mr A Simpson:

We were not always on different sides — we may have disagreed but we came to the same conclusion.

Some people’s perception of the Apprentice Boys was of a group that was made up of Protestants and that walked the streets of Derry two days a year shouting “no surrender”. When people saw the hall and the museum and had everything explained to them, their perception changed completely. We, as the Apprentice Boys, felt that opening the hall to people helped them to learn and helped us to extend our history to the people of the city.

Mr Brownlee:

As well as opening up local history to local people, it also has a worldwide aspect in attracting tourism. The hall is open to everyone and there is an economic aspect to that, because it is an opportunity to attract people to the city and show them something about its history that, hitherto, they would not have seen.

Mr Moore:

Our city is unique in the sense that many tourists and visitors to Londonderry come to walk the circumference of the walls, or at least part of it. They also want to learn more about the story of the siege of Derry. Therefore, our museum can convey the history of the city in a friendly manner. Obviously, there is also the Museum of Free Derry, which tells another story. Both museums tell aspects of the story of our city to tourists and visitors in a friendly manner.

Mr McCartney:

There is a value attached to the idea of having an independent museum, and the Apprentice Boys is a good example of such a museum. Taking up Wallace’s point, how would you define that concept to ensure that, in the future, you are not corralled into a situation that results in your independence being lessened? What is your relationship with the Museums Council, if such a relationship exists?

Mr A Simpson:

I and the Apprentice Boys are entirely of the opinion that we must have our independence, because the association’s independence has attracted tourists to come and ask questions. People may come to the city out of curiosity more than anything else. I maintain that tourists come to walk over the walls because they have heard so much about the contentions over the walls. However, regardless of what attracts tourists here, it is what we do when we get them here that matters. I feel that the independence of the Apprentice Boys should stand out, not on its own, but weaved in with the rest of the groups that reflect the history of the city.

Mr Moore:

It is important that small museums such as the Museum of Free Derry and the Apprentice Boys museum retain their own identities. We should work collectively to promote Derry as a tourist venue and to promote and market our museums. It is vital that we collaborate so that we are working with one aim, which is to promote our city and our museums, while still retaining that degree of independence.

Mr McCartney:

Do you have a relationship with the Museums Council?

Mr Brownlee:

The only relationship that exists is purely informative — we receive the Northern Ireland Museums Council’s monthly newsletter.

Mr McCartney:

Was accreditation gained through the Museums Council or was it separate?

Mr Brownlee:

I am not sure about that. That has been done for some time now, before we became established.

Mr McCarthy:

What benefits would the introduction of a museums policy have for your organisation? Would it assist you further in your work?

Mr A Simpson:

First of all, I would have to see what such a policy contained.

Mr Moore:

The policy would have to help us to market our local museums, advertise them and work collectively on the marketing, advertising and promotion of our museums and our city. That is the main benefit that I hope for.

Mr Brownlee:

I do not wish to contradict that, but to complement it. The policy must preserve the independent nature of the association.

Mr A Simpson:

If it enhances our association and the museum, we will be all for the policy. However, I would have to see what the policy contained before I lent it my support.

Mr McCarthy:

You are giving your input into that policy, which is good.

Mr Shannon:

Gentlemen, it is nice to see you. I saw you last on Sunday in Newry, at our annual service, and it was good to see you then as well.

I am keen to develop the policy for the whole of the Province. It should ensure that your organisation’s independence is retained and your museum should be able to take advantage of what the new policy can deliver for you. My question follows from Kieran’s: what advantages do you see for your organisation in a museums policy?

I return to the previous question. Derry City Council said that it was reviewing non-statutory cultural tourism providers. The name of your organisation was mentioned. Do you see the advantage of working together with the council?

My third supplementary question relates to the numbers that visit the museum. I visit every year. I never miss it; it is always excellent.

Mr Moore:

We see advantages in having a museums policy. Were we to maintain our present situation and keep separate, we would lose out completely. That is because of the make-up of the city which, I am repeatedly told, is now nationalist. With the Apprentice Boys participating and working to advance the overall good of the city, I see a good future.

You asked about Derry City Council. It has been very good to the Apprentice Boys from the beginning. We have always received some money from it. When people receive money, they always want more; but we are grateful to Derry City Council for its support.

The Chairperson:

Jim has just paid his membership fee.

Mr Shannon:

I have had to pay up. Last Sunday was my last instalment — now it is all paid. [Laughter.]

Mr Moore:

You asked about the advantages of working with the Museums Council. The council must help to co-ordinate private museums. The Apprentice Boys have a lot to learn — we are really novices at this game. If the Museums Council organised workshops or educational seminars on how to protect, preserve and handle collections, that would be beneficial.

Occasionally, visitors to our museum tell us that such and such an item should not be displayed, but protected or preserved by being enclosed. However, because we are not professionals, we do not know whether such advice is correct. The Museums Council could create educational classes from which we would learn how to preserve our artefacts and, for example, keep papers or photographs under the correct atmospheric pressure. The council could help private independent museums with all sorts of ideas on the preservation and promotion of our artefacts.

The Chairperson:

Is it possible that the Museums Council provides training that you are not necessarily aware of?

Mr Moore:

That is a probability. We get the odd newsletter from the Museums Council, but apart from that —

The Chairperson:

Perhaps you might want to explore whether it could intervene in that way.

Mr Moore:

At the very least there should be an annual, if not biannual, meeting — perhaps there is — where like-minded people can discuss and understand what we are trying to preserve and create. The Museums Council should be doing that and providing assistance to help novices, like us, to develop our museum.

Mr Shannon:

There is no doubt that the Apprentice Boys, through their event in August — the closing of the gates — have made that day into more than a commemorative event. In the build-up during the week before the event, the Apprentice Boys have help from the local council. It is important, as Ian Starrett has written in ‘the Newsletter’, that that has become a cultural event, and I am keen to see how you will bring more people to it.

Mr Moore:

The Maiden City Festival was created for two reasons — most importantly to try to promote a better understanding of the culture, ethos and history of the Apprentice Boys of Derry. I believe that the festival has been 100% successful in what it set out to achieve. We have received the good will and support of many in the nationalist community. Those nationalists who in 1968 walked for civil rights, state that they walked not only for Catholics but for all the people of Northern Ireland, especially the people of Londonderry. Civil rights are civil rights for Protestants as well.

With those rights come responsibilities and, within the Apprentice Boys, we accept that we have responsibilities. It is our responsibility to reach out to the wider community to help to create that better understanding, those good relations and, hopefully, a shared city where everyone can live and feel proud of its history, culture and traditions. The Apprentice Boys set out to help achieve a better understanding of our culture in this city, and that is why the Maiden City Festival was created.

Mr A Simpson:

The Apprentice Boys did that to help bring peace to this city. Do nationalist members see what we have done as a movement forward, or have we got stuck in a rut?

The Chairperson:

That is an unusual question when we are meeting in the format of a scrutiny Committee. [Laughter.]

Mr A Simpson:

Although we feel that we have done the right thing, no nationalist has offered alternative suggestions. Listening to the views of nationalists does not mean that we would do what they say, but we would take it on board to see how we could improve the situation.

The Chairperson:

I invite Francie Brolly to respond to that.

Mr Brolly:

I am not going to respond to that. [Laughter.] The entitlement to tell your story, in your way, and from your place is important; that is true also for the Bloody Sunday museum. I am concerned that what one witness described as the “community relations industry” might move in and tell people how to tell their story. None of us want to hear sanitised stories from anybody, and I think that everybody in this city appreciates the Apprentice Boys’ story. I live in far away Dungiven, but I appreciate the amazing work that has been done in this city by the Apprentice Boys and the museum.

The Chairperson:

I hope that dialogue will take place outside the meeting. That is interesting and worthwhile.

Mr McCausland:

You made a point about the museum’s contribution to improving good relations in the city and to promoting and developing tourism. If it were the case that, through a museums strategy and policy for Northern Ireland, there were more support for local independent museums such as yours, would that present opportunities to develop the museum? The organisation has a large collection of irreplaceable artefacts because of its unique position. Where do you envisage you will take the museum in years to come if such resources and opportunities emerge?

Mr Moore:

Obviously, our aim and priority for the future is to locate a purpose-built museum, on ground that is owned by the Apprentice Boys, adjacent to the Memorial Hall. We want the museum to tell the story of the siege of Londonderry and the evolution of the Apprentice Boys of Derry Association. That can only be beneficial to the city — reaching out to the wider community, creating good relationships and, hopefully, a shared city where Protestants can, once again, feel comfortable enough to return to the west bank of the Foyle.

One of our aims for the Maiden City Festival, apart from creating a better understanding among the city’s nationalist community, is to encourage Protestants. Many of them vacated the west bank because of intimidation or other reasons and went to live in the Waterside or further afield. The aim of the festival and the museum is to show that the Apprentice Boys are a stakeholder in the west bank of the Foyle.

We encourage our community to return to where our history and culture originated. St Columb’s Cathedral, where citizens worshipped and prayed during the siege, is located on the west bank of the Foyle. Derry’s walls and the Apprentice Boys Association’s world headquarters are also located there. Therefore, we cannot leave the west bank. We cannot run away and parade in Limavady, Coleraine or elsewhere. Our heritage and traditions belong inside the walls of the Maiden City. Therefore, our other aim for the new building of a heritage centre or museum — call it what you will — is to encourage those Protestants back and help them to feel part of a shared city on the west bank.

We aim to create a new purpose-built museum. We are sensible enough to understand that if we receive funding to build the museum, we must plan for its sustainability. Consideration must be given to mistakes that have been made in other areas of the Province where museums fell apart at the seams because they did not have sustainability. We have researched and examined many aspects of that. We have considered areas of the newbuild that can be leased out in order to create regular income that will ensure the sustainability of the new purpose-built museum.

We aim to have the new museum up and running by the 2013, because that is a significant year for the Apprentice Boys. It will be the four hundredth anniversary of the commencement of the building of Derry’s walls. Most people believe that the walls were built between 1614 and 1618. However, in 1613, the walls were marked out and quarrying for the stone from which they would be built began. Therefore, 2013 will the four-hundredth anniversary of the building of the walls of Londonderry. By that date, we want the purpose-built museum to be up and running, telling the story of the siege of Derry and the Apprentice Boys’ history. Take note, everyone. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson:

I have a feeling that you could tell us the day, William.

Mr Moore:

The day when people started to build the walls? Not a problem; I was there. [Laughter.]

Mr K Robinson:

First, thank you, gentlemen, for providing that information. I was at the Apprentice Boys’ memorial hall only once before, many years ago; like Jim Shannon, I was there was for a conference in the company of the late Enoch Powell. I was amazed by it; you have been hiding your light under a bushel.

As an independent museum, do you feel that you have been left behind? If so, is it the organisation or the lack of appreciation for your culture that is to blame?

Mr Brownlee:

The Apprentice Boys is a voluntary organisation and, in many ways, that has held us back. We have had no professional input in respect of our museum or its artefacts. Aside from the historical significance, there are many other aspects to the organisation, such as the running of the museum. We had some professional input on the design of the museum. Some professional input would help us to play catch-up. The museum has been open for only 18 months, but already it has had a positive impact on the organisation and, indeed, the people who visit.

Mr K Robinson:

How were you in the position to build the museum when you were given no professional input or expertise?

Mr Brownlee:

The present political climate means that the time is right for assistance from outside.

Mr K Robinson:

Are you sure that that is the only reason? Do you have the right mechanisms in place to approach the relevant people in the museums sector?

Mr Moore:

I regret to say that, prior to the creation of the Maiden City Festival, our difficulties stemmed from the fact that Apprentice Boys went to the Apprentice Boys’ memorial hall, closed the doors, pulled down the hatches, locked the door, and allowed nobody else to enter. Some 15 years ago, a woman would not have been allowed to attend an Apprentice Boys’ meeting, let alone a Catholic. [Laughter.]

We have come a long way since the days when we sheltered behind the closed doors of the Apprentice Boys’ hall. The organisation has become more open, transparent and proactive, not only in the city, but throughout the country as well. That has been good for the association. That has led to better understanding, which we talked about earlier. In the past, we were the victims of our insecurity. That has changed dramatically; we are now prepared to open our doors to everyone — women included. [Laughter.]

We took one step at a time: first, we allowed Catholics; then, we allowed women. [Laughter.]

That was a joke.

The Chairperson:

I remind you that Hansard is covering the Committee. [Laughter.]

Mr A Simpson:

People complained that nobody was speaking on behalf of the Apprentice Boys. However, when I spoke to the media on behalf of the organisation, some said that I had no right to do so. Many people said that what happened inside the four walls of the Apprentice Boys’ hall was to do with us and nobody else. That was a trap into which the organisation had fallen. Some people wanted me to talk to the media; others did not.

We faced a hard battle within the organisation to get on the right path. Eventually, we got out of the trap. Once, a Protestant reporter from the ‘Londonderry Sentinel’ was not allowed inside the room, because he was not an Apprentice Boy. Now, men, women, schoolchildren, and elderly people visit the hall. That influx of new people has helped us to leave the past behind.

I would welcome advice from anyone who could help the association to take the best steps forward. However, we must be careful, as I said at the beginning, that we do not get swallowed up and lose our independence.

Mr K Robinson:

Do you know whom you have to talk to?

Mr A Simpson:

No.

Mr K Robinson:

I suspected that that was the case.

Mr P Ramsey:

I wanted to return to the issue of the capital works, but it is important, just for the record, to acknowledge the huge leadership contribution that the Apprentice Boys have made in this city over the past two decades. It has been a significant contribution.

It is important to note that the economic development section of Derry City Council has been very supportive in capacity building and bringing forward the plans for the concept of the museum. They have seen the importance of preserving your culture —

Mr A Simpson:

We could not have done it without that support.

Mr P Ramsey:

The important element is the capital works. Can you outline where the capital moneys are coming from for the museum? I know that some of that is coming from the Destination North West signature project moneys.

Mr Moore:

We have had some support, and have received a letter of intent, although that is not the same as a letter of offer. We have had some support from the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, and we hope to obtain support from the Heritage Lottery Fund. We hope that the Department for Social Development will come on board. There will be a cocktail of funders, who will promote, support and assist the building of the new museum.

We are hopeful that we can arrange a meeting with the leaders of the various Departments at Stormont to chart a way forward and get the funding secured. Perhaps some of the Departments will jump first if the Northern Ireland Tourist Board has provided £1 million, or whatever the case will be.

Mr P Ramsey:

A bit of joined-up thinking is required.

Mr Moore:

It is a hard task, but it is important, not only for the city, but for our country as a whole, that the story of the Apprentice Boys be expressed in a way that is educational and beneficial, and which promotes our city as a major tourist destination.

The Chairperson:

I thank Jim, William and Alistair for their presentation and for answering questions.

The next presentation will be from the representatives of the Museum of Free Derry. I welcome Adrian Kerr, Eamonn McCann and Tony Doherty, and I ask you to make a brief opening statement, after which members will ask questions.

Mr Eamonn McCann (Museum of Free Derry):

I am the chairman of the Bloody Sunday Trust, which runs the museum. Tony Doherty is a trustee, and Adrian Kerr is the manager and curator of the museum. He will do most of the talking for our delegation.

Mr Adrian Kerr (Museum of Free Derry):

I will run briefly through some of the main points of our written presentation. The Museum of Free Derry was set up to educate people about what happened here, and give them a real sense of the impact that that had on us and on others.

The Museum of Free Derry is unashamedly subjective: it tells the story of free Derry from a free Derry point of view. We do not tell that story in a jingoistic or party-political way. We tell the entire story, and we do not ignore parts of the story that are uncomfortable. The Museum of Free Derry is the first of its type in the North; we are the only museum that tackles our recent history head on. Other museums may have small displays about recent history, but our museum is all about recent history.

The museum is an important expression of identity for one community — not one nationalist community or one unionist community, but the free Derry community. We hope that our museum will encourage other people to develop museums that deal with their recent history. We take a bottom-up approach; the many different histories and perceptions of history across the North must be told by the people who were most involved in and affected by those events.

Our museum is an important way of helping the free Derry community to tell its own story. The creation of museums such as ours should be encouraged to let other communities in the North tell their own stories rather than having their stories told for them. The different perceptions of history should not be brought together into a single history. Everyone has a right to their own perception of their own history and the right to tell that story. They should be encouraged to tell their story, regardless of whether other people agree with it.

The museum also tries to place the history of free Derry in an international context, rather than merely looking at it as part of the communal conflict in the North or the conflict between Britain and Ireland. We do a lot of work with other international museums in an attempt to learn from other histories across the world and to let other people to learn from us.

Where a story is told is as important as who tells the story. Each community has the right to, if possible, tell its story where it happened. Our museum is situated where Bloody Sunday occurred, and Bloody Sunday is obviously a key point of the story that we tell. Similarly, the history of the Falls Road or the Shankill Road should be told in those areas and by people from those areas. Communities should be encouraged to set up their own museums or helped to tell their stories in other ways.

Many people visit the North to learn about our recent history. It is better that those people hear a legitimate history from the people who were there and most involved. A museum such as ours can benefit the community by attracting tourism to the area. Such institutions can bring major economic benefits into what are some of the most deprived areas of the North. We work in the Bogside, which is still one of the most deprived areas of the city. However, it has also become one of our biggest tourist attractions. Whether or not we regard it as tasteful, people are visiting the area to hear its story. We can benefit from that by setting up institutions such as the Museum of Free Derry, and creating employment. If smaller, independent museums were set up in other areas across the North, those areas could benefit in a similar way.

Mr P Ramsey:

You are all very welcome to the Committee meeting. Where does the museum’s funding come from? Can you be more specific about the economic benefits that your museum brings to the local area?

How many visitors does the museum attract? I appreciate that you operate in an independent sector. However, do you have a view on an example from outside Northern Ireland that would represent a best-practice model for us to follow in the creation of a museums policy here?

Mr E McCann:

I will return to your previous point, and then Adrian will talk of funding streams and where we are looking to in the future, about which he is better qualified than I am.

It is important for the museum to look outside. A conviction when we started campaigning at least 10 years ago to get the funds to start the museum was to locate this part of the story of Derry — a tumultuous period from 1968 to 1972 — in a wider context rather than simply in terms of the orange versus green conflict in the North, if I may put it like that.

The museum is linked to the International Coalition of Sites of Conscience group, to museums in South Africa, the Martin Luther King Jr National Memorial in Washington, the Tenement Museum in New York, which is a museum to the poor who poured into the United States, and various others. Adrian has been to a conference in Bologna —

Mr P Ramsey:

I hope that people are taking note of these for visits. [Laughter.]

Mr E McCann:

We want people from those places to come to our museum, perhaps for extended periods, and to meet a deputation from our people. We are not in it for the trips. We will be going to South Africa early next year to examine how they manage, and to draw on that experience. We cordially invite everyone to come and look at the museum, and I think that you will be impressed by what we have done — whatever your view of that period — and with our plans for the future, which we would be pleased to show to you and to discuss.

Mr Kerr:

One issue about funding is that the museum will remain independent, no matter what. We will not deal with anyone who tries to tell us how we can tell the story. We do that in consultation with the community; not for a funder.

Derry City Council has been the biggest single funder, with almost £200,000. The Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin, the Department for Social Development and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board have also helped with funding. It is not an expensive project. We have a museum up and running that has attracted almost 40,000 visitors in the past 30 months in which it has been open, and it still costs only just over £300,000 — which, in museum terms, is very cheap for an organisation that is run to full museum standard.

Another £100,000 will be received later this year from Derry City Council and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board. That is the museum’s funding to date. I am meeting representatives from the Heritage Lottery Fund this afternoon to begin a discussion into how we can get finance for the next major development, but we are at only the start of that process.

Mr Tony Doherty (Museum of Free Derry):

The museum is not fully sustainable at the moment. It receives blocks of funding from certain organisations such as the city council, and it profits from the throughput to the museum. However, it is not entirely sustainable, and we have to be mindful and clever with regard to begging, borrowing and stealing — and I use those words advisedly — in order to make up the deficit.

It has been a difficult struggle so far, and we would like to be involved less in a struggle and more in developing the full potential of the museum over the next few years rather than having to look out for the pounds and pence, although that is also important.

Mr P Ramsey:

Will you elaborate on the benefits to the economy of a project of this nature?

Mr Kerr:

The museum, as Tony said, is not 100% sustainable, but we have managed to keep three jobs going. In addition, as part of the Walled City Signature Project, which is a major tourism project that includes the Museum of Free Derry, the Apprentice Boys, the Tower Museum and St Columb’s Cathedral. Derry is the one place where all those stories can be told within, literally, a couple of hundred square yards. We have a major product here which hundreds of thousands of people come to see every year.

The museum is recognised as a major part of that. One of the major historical episodes that took place in the city is the siege. The obvious people to tell that story are the Apprentice Boys, and they have been given help through this project to set up their own museum and keep it running. The other major historical episode that took place in Derry is the era of the civil rights movement and Bloody Sunday. We consider ourselves to be the right people to tell that story. The proof of that is that people come to our museum, and they do so because they see us as telling the authentic story of that episode.

As part of the overall tourism strategy, there are economic benefits to be had for the entire city. Both the Apprentice Boys and the Museum of Free Derry are needed if the experience is to be legitimate and authentic. It cannot all be done in the one place. The Tower Museum gives the overall history of the city, and smaller museums give that of more specific areas. That mix works; one would not work without the other, but both create a major product.

Mr K Robinson:

How do you know where to go to get either practical help from museums specialists or financial help? Do you have the expertise to do that? Do you know which doors to push open, and might you be unaware that other doors are open to you? You spoke of sustainability potential. How do you know that you can get from where you are to where you want to be? Do you know the paths and processes involved?

Mr Kerr:

We have a very experienced board that knows where to find funding. Our board has managed massive capital projects and we cover all necessary bases with the board. We co-operate with the Northern Ireland Museums Council and the Heritage Council on museum-specific work. We may be the only museum that works with both, and they provide all the help and advice that we need. The council’s museum service gives us formal curatorial advice.

Mr K Robinson:

How did you find out about that? The previous group of representatives are struggling to find funding. How did the Museum of Free Derry manage to do it?

Mr Kerr:

That is a hard question; we sort of made it up as we went along.

Mr E McCann:

It took a long time. Some 10 or 15 years ago, our small group decided that it would aim to do this. We started and then learned on the job.

Mr K Robinson:

You bounced off all the walls.

Mr E McCann:

We did, and we are more than happy to share the experience and expertise that we have gained with Alistair and the Apprentice Boys or with anyone else. We have already done that with Alan McBride, who lost his wife in the Shankill bomb. We spoke at length with him. We also worked with Healing Through Remembering and such groups, and we want to be part of the broader picture.

I do not wish to offend anyone by using this phrase, but this is not a “tiocfaidh” shrine. It is much more. [Laughter].

Mr K Robinson:

That is the core of the argument. The Committee has now spoken to representatives of the Apprentice Boys and the Museum of Free Derry. We have seen one sector which, after bitter experience, has found its way through the maze, and another that is starting off but is not quite sure where to turn. The Committee needs to keep that in mind.

Mr Kerr:

The Northern Ireland Museums Council — and others — are there to help. We have found them to be extremely helpful with any questions we have had or any training that we need. It is there for any museum. It is the starting point for anyone setting up a museum like this, or for anyone who has a museum and needs to know how to progress. The advice is available.

Mr McCartney:

I have declared an interest as a trustee of the Museum of Free Derry.

What is the relationship between the Museums Council, the Museum of Free Derry and other independent museums? The Committee endeavours to assist in the formulation of a museums policy. What should the role of the Museums Council be in the future?

Furthermore, how should the policy, if not protect the independence of museums, promote it? Obviously, independent museums place great value on that independence: we heard that from the Apprentice Boys. How should we define that independence in the policy so that it does not become, as Francie Brolly said, a community relations version?

Mr Kerr:

Our relationship with the Museums Council has always been positive. It is the ideal vehicle for helping smaller museums, and it has always been there to provide help, curatorial advice, funding advice, training, etc. So, if ain’t broken, don’t fix it. However, we would like the Museums Council to be better resourced and encouraged in the future.

With regard to an overall policy and its impact on independent museums, it must be recognised that independent museums are as important as national museums or any other type of museums. The Museum of Free Derry might be smaller than the Ulster Museum, but it is just as important. Any policy should recognise that we have a right to tell our story, and the Apprentice Boys have that same right. We do not have to opt for a compromised agreed history, regardless of whether we are dealing with recent history or older history. Any future policy must recognise that there are different perceptions of history that need to be told. The benefits of doing so, as part of the overall resolution process in the North, are so strong that they should not only be protected in any policy, but they should be encouraged and supported financially, and in every other way.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you for your presentation. Has the lack of a museums policy been detrimental to the work that you are involved in? Are you fearful that the policy might be detrimental?

Mr Kerr:

Our museum has been in existence for only two and a half years. We do not come from a museum background; rather, we are a campaigning organisation, which made things up as we went along. Therefore, we cannot really comment on the lack of a policy in the past. We are only starting to become involved in museum circles, and to recognise the need for a policy. A co-ordinating policy must be put in place.

The number of museums in the North always surprises me. There must be a co-ordinated method of helping those museums, but the policy must recognise the role of larger museums as well as smaller museums. The independence of museums is very important. We cannot have a central storyboard for all museums in the North. Every museum must have its own storyboard and must be given assistance to develop it.

Mr Brolly:

Raymond asked my question — it is simply not my day today. Nevertheless, if a comprehensive museums policy is developed, it would involve rationalisation and the creation of a central authority. That authority may consider the fact that there are a few museums in Derry city, and it could affect your independent existence, if not your independent character.

Mr E McCann:

That is a difficulty. If an official museums policy was developed, which does not seem like common sense to a lot of people, with the nature of things in Northern Ireland it must take a middle road, or it must have balance or even two separate stories going on. With the best will in the world, we all know that that is impossible. We all know the experience of the Maze, which is emblematic of that impossibility.

We have had a positive relationship with the Museums Council, and it knows what we are doing. We want to tell the story independently, and other people should be allowed to do that. In the Museum of Free Derry, it is not the story as told by academic historians, and it is certainly not the story that is told by politicians on any side. We tell the story from the bottom to the ordinary people. That is very important to us. An official policy might almost automatically become a policy from the top where people are told how to tell their story and how to fit it into a particular narrative. It is very important to us that it comes from the grassroots, that is, the streets where the museums exist. That is a positive aspect. We would be delighted to have an overall policy, particularly if there is money attached.

Mr Brolly:

Therefore, would it be fair to say that you might be safer without a museums policy?

Mr T Doherty:

Possibly. However, any policy needs to recognise that chunks of our history are contested and that none of us will agree the end of history at any time. The policy must recognise that it is so contested and, where it is contested, there must due diligence and sensitivity as to how that history is presented. As Adrian said, we have gone out of our way to ensure that that history is not presented in an offensive or jingoistic manner. That same approach must be recognised in policymaking and political terms so that it governs the possibility of new museums or — dare I say it — interpretative centres, in the future.

Mr E McCann:

Anyone who visits the Museum of Free Derry will find that we cover every death in Derry between 1968 and 1972. That includes every RUC officer and British soldier who died. We use the same language about all of those deaths. We do not state that one side was “murdered” and that the other side was merely “killed” as that carries a baggage judgement with it. Our museum obviously has a particular resonance because of where it is in the experience of the people. However, there is no attempt to tell a strident, narrow story. Anyone who visits the museum will see that.

I spoke to Mr Poots when he was the Minister at a function in Belfast and asked him to visit the museum. He agreed, but sadly he had a change of career in the interim and did not visit the museum. [Laughter.]

However we are quite anxious for the present Minister, Gregory Campbell, to visit the museum. We would be very pleased to have him there.

The Chairperson:

For an explanation of what happened to the former Minister we will go to Jim. [Laughter.]

Mr Shannon:

Our former Minister was elevated to the Back Benches. [Laughter.]

My question is meant to be constructive, and I do not wish to cause offence. In your submission and your evidence you have referred to perceptions of history. I am quite concerned that a perception of history can be expressed that is not true.

I do not think that it is fair to draw a comparison between the events commemorated by your museum and the siege of Derry. There is no doubt that the gates of Derry were closed in December 1688. Furthermore, there is no doubt that the boom was broken in August 1689 and that the people almost starved during that period. Those are the facts of history.

How do you tell the story your museum? Do you tell it from the side of the RUC, the British Army or the unionist people and how other people perceived it? Or, do you simply tell the history from the perspective of those who lived there? In other words, do you tell history from a point of view that some of us would feel is untrue and inappropriate?

Mr Kerr:

Yes we do. We tell the history from the perspective of the experiences of the community. We do not claim any more or any less than that. When people visit our museum, they know that is what they are getting. It is “exactly what it says on the tin” or whatever other term that you want to use. That is what the museum is and what it is set up to do.

All history is subjective. That is fine so long as you are clear about where your subjectivity is coming from, and we are. We tell our visitors that we are describing the story of the Free Derry community from the point of view of the community. That is what we do.

There are other points of view. For example, there is the British point of view that has been promoted all over the world for the past 36 years. We have set out to tell the story of our community. That is exactly what we have done and we encourage others to do exactly the same. We would love to see other museums with a different perspective being set up. If they are, we will visit them and may totally disagree with what they say, but not with their right to say it.

Lord Browne:

Do you profile your visitors? I am interested to know how many you have coming from other countries rather than from solely from Northern Ireland.

You have obviously visited museums in many other countries. Is there anything that you have learnt about the policies that they have adopted that could be incorporated into this policy document?

Mr Kerr:

I do not have any figures with me. However, there are not too many countries in the world that are not represented on our visitor books. People have come from all over the world. Part of the narrative about the museum is translated into 11 different languages, and that is about half the languages that we need to keep up with the visitors. We are working on a way to get the entire museum translated.

We receive visits from school groups from across the North, Britain and Europe, and also student groups in third-level education. We cover the whole range. As a member of the International Coalition of Sites of Conscience, we are in regular contact with museums all over the world. Unfortunately, we are starting to visit them only now, which got me a few nice days out in Italy during the summer.

I visited the Peace School Foundation of Monte Sole, which was set up to commemorate a Nazi massacre of Italian citizens at the end of the Second World War. At a conference of all the different museums, we were able to take part in one of its programmes, and we are working on amending it for the Museum of Free Derry. The peace school’s programme was like an eyewitness tour using personal testimony at certain points, and it would work well for us.

We have a lot of international contacts, and we are open to learn. The whole point of going to visit other museums is to learn from them and for them to visit us and learn from us. That is why the coalition is in existence.

Lord Browne:

The impression is that your museum depicts conflicts. However, there must also be the peace aspect. How do you develop war and peace?

Mr E McCann:

One of the ways is by using the common experience of people. We have a great tendency in Northern Ireland to believe that we are unique and that the world should pay attention to our little piece of earth and our conflict — although you may or may not agree with that. When one looks outside, it can be seen that we are not unique and that we share experiences with other people. That, in itself, is a valuable lesson — if we are able to convey it in our museum, and we think that we can.

We need to view issues in a wider context, otherwise we would never have realised anything. One of the interesting things is that the Apprentice Boys memorial Hall can be seen from our museum. We are a small people. The Free Derry wall and the walls of Derry are looking at each other. You wish sometimes that walls could talk to walls.

Mr Shannon:

The Apprentice Boys are keeping an eye on you.

Mr E McCann:

The location is all part of it. We get on better in Derry on a personal level than most other cities, particularly the city of Belfast. We are well ahead.

Mr K Robinson:

You said that the educational aspect was important. Do the schools come to your museum as part of a programme or do you go to them?

Mr Kerr:

So far, the schools have come to us. However, we have recently received funding from the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, which was to set up an exhibition that we can take around schools. We have a brief education pack that guides schoolchildren round the museum. Again, it is early days, and we are working on getting it right. The education pack has been set up with the help of teachers.

We then take the children across to the community centre for a question-and-answer session with John Kelly, the main guide in the museum. All questions are on the table. The children can ask anything.

Mr K Robinson:

Are the schools following a syllabus when they come to visit, or are they just coming out of interest?

Mr Kerr:

The visits fit in with the syllabus. That period of history is now on the school syllabus.

The Chairperson:

I thank Eamonn, Tony and Adrian for making a presentation and answering our questions. We have had four presentations today and Hansard has covered every bit of the engagement, including Eamonn’s comments about being ahead of Belfast. We will continue to deliberate on the lessons learned from this inquiry.

Mr E McCann:

Thank you for inviting us. Everyone is welcome to come and visit our museum. We will be delighted to see you.