COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

OFFICIAL REPORT

(Hansard)

Inquiry into the Development of a Museums Policy for Northern Ireland

25 September 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr David McNarry
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:
Mr Archie Walls ) Ards Borough Council
Mr William Blair ) Mid-Antrim Museums Service
Dr Gordon Millington OBE ) HMS Caroline Committee
Mr Frank Robinson )
Ms Primrose Wilson )
Mr Mike King ) Down District Council
Ms Sharon O’Connor )
Ms Noreen Cunningham ) Newry and Mourne District Council

The Chairperson (Mr McElduff):
We proceed to the inquiry into the development of a museums policy. I ask members to note the response at tab 3 of the members’ packs from the Research and Library Service on issues that arose during the presentation on 11 September. The only outstanding information relates to visitor numbers to museums in the South. Research and Library Service will send that to the Committee as soon as possible. I refer members to the outline plan at tab 4 of the packs. The Committee Clerk will address the meeting on the proposed outline plan. I remind members to be focused on the terms of reference of the plan; it is not a general inquisition on local government.

The Committee Clerk:
The outline plan at tab 4 of the packs shows the main steps in the inquiry. The first step is the evidence sessions with the witnesses, including the Minister. Following those evidence sessions, the Committee will review and consider the evidence in order to come up with its recommendations, and the Committee Office will provide a summary of all the evidence to assist with the process. Following that, the Committee will consider a report drafted by the Committee Office, and, subsequently, the Committee will agree its final report.

The outline plan also provides a list of the main issues that were raised by witnesses and members at the previous two meetings, and they will serve as an aide-memoire for members.

It will be useful to remember the main focus of the inquiry. First, the Committee must decide whether there is a case for recommending that the Department develops a museums policy. If the Committee decides that it is necessary, it will have to present concrete evidence that outlines the benefits that can be gained from having a museums policy, as well as pointing out any risks or problems associated with not having a policy. It is vital to use the evidence sessions to gather that kind of information.

Secondly, the Committee must explore how a policy could be best drawn up. Last week, for instance, it was suggested that there should be panel of museum professionals.

Thirdly, the Committee must decide what key elements should be included in the museums policy. It has been suggested that a policy should address the relationship between the national and independent museums.

The Committee is not engaged in drawing up a comprehensive museums policy as part of the inquiry. That is for the Department to do, and the Committee may recommend that.

The Chairperson:
That will help focus efforts. There will be five witness presentations at this morning’s meeting, and members must be aware of time management. Therefore, members should not ask questions merely for the sake of doing so.

Mr Shannon:
The first witness will make a short submission, which will, probably, relate to the Somme Heritage Centre and the Ards Borough Council’s involvement in it. We have a lot of questions, which, by the officer’s own admission, he is not in a position to answer.

I have a question that is not on the list of suggested questions, which could help the inquiry.

The Chairperson:
That is fine.

Mr McCarthy:
I will ask the first, second and third questions on the list.

Mr P Ramsey:
I will ask the seventh and eighth questions on the list.

The Chairperson:
OK, Pat.

Mr K Robinson:
As before, I will ask the tenth and eleventh questions.

The Chairperson:
That is fine. Other Committee members can ask the remaining questions.

Mr Brolly:
In the evidence that the Committee has heard as part of the inquiry, witnesses have not been asked why they thought a museums policy would help and how it would help. I will ask that question.

Mr K Robinson:
That issue is covered by the tenth question.

Mr Brolly:
I apologise; Ken has that question covered.

The Chairperson:
I remind Committee members to switch their mobile phones off. We must now declare any potential interests that we have. I am a member of Omagh District Council.

Mr McCartney:
I am not sure whether it is relevant, but I am a member of the Bloody Sunday Trust of the Museum of Free Derry.

The Chairperson:
That is relevant.

Mr McNarry:
I did not hear that — what organisation are you a member of?

Mr McCartney:
The Bloody Sunday Trust of the Museum of Free Derry.

The Chairperson:
Francie, do you have any interests to declare?

Mr Brolly:
No; none at all.

Mr K Robinson:
I am a member of Newtownabbey Borough Council.

Mr P Ramsey:
I am a member of Derry City Council.

Mr McCarthy:
I am a member of Ards Borough Council.

Lord Browne:
I am a member of Belfast City Council, and I am a trustee of the Somme Association.

Mr Shannon:
Nelson McCausland is a member of Belfast City Council, and I am a member of Ards Borough Council.

The Chairperson:
I refer Committee members to the suggested questions for representatives from independent museums, which are tabled and are not in the information packs. Do Committee members agree to ask those questions to representatives of independent museums that give evidence to the Committee in the coming weeks?

Members indicated assent.

Some organisations have contacted the Committee Office to say that some of the generic questions may be too wide ranging, which is the point that Jim raised. The alternative questions may be more appropriate for those organisations.

The Committee will now receive a presentation from a representative of Ards Borough Council. A copy of the written submission from the council is at tab 6 of the members’ packs. I welcome Mr Archie Walls, who is the director of leisure services at Ards Borough Council. We have done our preamble and know that you are going to make a statement about museums in the Ards Borough Council area.

Mr Archie Walls (Ards Borough Council):
I am not sure whether I will make a statement — I am prepared to answer some questions from Committee members.

In my current role, I have no direct involvement with the museum sector, so I apologise in advance if I sound less knowledgeable about the subject than other witnesses who have appeared before the Committee.

The Chairperson:
We welcome the engagement from your local authority.

Mr Shannon:
Archie, it is nice to have you up from the hallowed corridors of power. Obviously, Ards Borough Council has a relationship with the Somme Heritage Centre. How can that type of relationship improve an independent museum? Is it important for councils to offer financial assistance to local museums, in your case the Somme Heritage Centre? Is it important for Ards Borough Council to be involved? What lessons have been learned that could assist the Committee in its final deliberations?

Mr Walls:
The Somme Heritage Centre is obviously a very popular and important museum. I am aware that representatives of the museum have appeared before the Committee and have made a significant contribution to the inquiry. There is no doubt that the views that they expressed were important and should be taken into consideration. As a visitor to the Somme Heritage Centre on more than one occasion over the years, I have found it to be a model of good practice, and there is much for the Committee to learn from about the way that it operates.

On the question of local government funding, Ards Borough Council’s objectives with regard to the promotion of culture, and on equality, are well served by its assistance of the Somme Heritage Centre. The centre is a great educational resource, not only for people in the borough, but for visitors to the area. The support that the Council provides in pursuit of its cultural, educational and equality objectives is well justified.

Mr Shannon:
The Somme Heritage Centre is one of four different locations in the Ards and north Down area that could be promoted together. Do you feel that museums should be promoted alongside other destinations or visitor locations in order to increase the tourism potential of the area?

Mr Walls:
There is no doubt that museums are more than just an educational or cultural resource. They are a tourism facility as well. As well as developing a strategy for museums, there is much to be gained by incorporating them into tourism strategies and policies.

Mr McCarthy:
Thank you, Mr Walls, you are very welcome. I apologise for keeping you late; Ards Borough Council is a very busy and efficient organisation, and I am sure that you will carry on in that vein when you get out of here.

My question is a simple one: has the lack of a museums policy for Northern Ireland been detrimental to their work?

Mr Walls:
The theoretical answer is that it is bound to have been detrimental, because it is not good for any organisation to operate in a policy vacuum. Any organisation or body, whether private or public, must operate within policy guidelines. The lack of a policy can only be a bad thing.

Mr McNarry:
You are welcome, Mr Walls. In what way does the lack of a museums policy condition Ards Borough Council’s current museums policy?

Mr Walls:
The lack of a museums policy for Northern Ireland separates Northern Ireland from museums in the rest of the United Kingdom, and, perhaps, even further afield. In a national sense, we are unable to benefit from exchanging exhibits from one museum to another because of that isolation and detachment. There is no doubt that opportunities are being missed to explore economies of scale and areas of good practice in the operation of museums and in the sector in general.

Mr McNarry:
It is difficult to put words into your mouth; I do not want to do that. To take a wider view, would the adoption of a museums policy encourage a positive outlook on the part of Ards Borough Council?

Mr Walls:
It would contribute to a positive outlook from the council. The council is not directly involved in the provision of a museum service, although it does offer support to the Somme Heritage Centre. If a policy were developed that placed museums into the realm of local government, or enabled them to seek greater support from local government, it would probably be welcomed. However, in that circumstance, the source of funding would have to be carefully scrutinised.

Mr McNarry:
If there were a policy that contributed to the development of something more ambitious by Ards Borough Council, do you think that the ratepayers would be comfortable in embracing that policy and the manner in which money would be spent?

Mr Walls:
The point I was seeking to make was that careful thought would have to be given as to where the funding for museum development would come from. Obviously, the ratepayers would not welcome an increase on the rates burden, but, if central funding were available for the development of museums, anything would be possible

Mr McCausland:
You mentioned Ards Borough Council’s support for the Somme Heritage Centre. What kind of support is provided?

Mr Walls:
A contribution towards the marketing budget of the centre is given. It is quite small — something in the region £15,000 a year.

Lord Browne:
Do you think that a museums policy should recommend that museums be mainstreamed under control of a central body or central government, rather than local councils? Do you think that local councils should co-operate more in order to achieve efficiencies?

Mr Walls:
To answer the second part of the question; yes, I think thought should always be given to working together to exchange ideas and look for efficiencies. I do not think that all museums should necessarily be under the control of a central body or central government. Nationally important museums may well be best placed under the remit of a central organisation, but local government reflects its own local flavour. If there are museums that reflect a local identity or local issues, it may be appropriate for those to be under the remit of local government. There is a mixed approach that is workable.

The Chairperson:
Thank you, Archie, for attending this morning, and for your presentation.

The Committee will receive five submissions this morning. The next submission is from Mid-Antrim Museums Service, and members have received a copy of the written submission. I invite Mr William Blair, head of the Mid-Antrim Museums Service, to make an opening statement, after which there will be an opportunity for Committee members to ask questions. You are very welcome.

Mr William Blair (Mid-Antrim Museums Service):
Thank you. I am grateful for the opportunity to address the Committee, and I commend the Committee for its decision to investigate the development of museums policy — it is a timely decision. I head up the Mid-Antrim Museums Service, which is a four-council partnership that consists of Ballymena, Carrickfergus, Larne and Newtownabbey. It has been based on museum-development policy as articulated by the Museums Council. The partnership was brokered in the late 1990s.

At the same time, the partnership helped to overcome challenges created by the prevalence of small local authorities in Northern Ireland. It was also intended to achieve benefits, economies of scale, and provide a more co-ordinated approach to the development of capital and public programmes.

The strategy has been very successful. It has enabled us to present a clear, compelling case to funding bodies such as the Heritage Lottery Fund. Such bodies can see that the development plan is co-ordinated. The partnership approach has given the Heritage Lottery Fund confidence to commit funding to the Mid-Antrim Museums Service. The benefits of working in partnership also extend to our public programmes.

As a public-facing service, our priority is to work creatively and collaboratively with local communities. In that regard, the Mid-Antrim Museums Service has won funding from the European Union’s programme for peace and reconciliation. That money helped finance an interesting community history project, which has been recently completed.

That brings the Committee up to date on the Mid-Antrim Museums Service, which is underpinned by principles that are consistent with those of the review of public administration (RPA). In that sense, our service is slightly ahead of the game. Its model of working and approach are in line with the principles and goals that councils hope to achieve through the implementation of RPA.

Mr McCarthy:
Thank you for your presentation and comprehensive written submission. Has the lack of a museums policy for Northern Ireland been detrimental to your work?

The Chairperson:
In order to manage the Committee’s time, I ask Mr Blair to note Mr McCarthy’s question, and I invite Mr Ken Robinson to ask his.

Mr K Robinson:
The two questions tag together well. Mr McCarthy asked about the overall policy; what are the key components of such a policy? Beyond your comprehensive written submission, the Committee wants to know about what success the service has had on the ground. In a Newtownabbey context, Sentry Hill comes to mind. I note that you mentioned Newtownabbey last in your list.

Mr Blair:
That list is in alphabetical order.

The Chairperson:
That is a good defence.

Mr Blair:
The lack of a museums policy has had a detrimental, but not disastrous, effect. Development has not been prevented.

Development does not happen in a vacuum. Our work in the Mid-Antrim Museums Service is underpinned by a clear policy and strategy with a firm sense of direction. Our development process, which began with a feasibility study 10 years ago, has led to a fully operational museum service. That does not happen by accident.

It would be preferable, however, to have a policy articulated at Government level. That would benefit the Department and the Assembly, because it would recognise the social value of museums and their contribution to society. A Government museums policy must give voice to, and be reflective of, those roles. The question is how best to exploit existing museums in order that they achieve maximum benefit as a learning resource, as a method of encouraging good relations and as a means of improving community development and tourism.

A museums policy that articulates such methods would certainly be beneficial to us all.

Mr K Robinson:
Will you expand on the question that I posed?

Mr Blair:
A number of main components exist. On one level, it is about how relationships are created within the museums sector among independent, regional, local and national museums. It is also about how synergies can be created within those different elements of the museum family. On another level, it is about developing links with wider Government agendas and initiatives, such as ‘A Shared Future’. We must find a way to knit together the museum structures that are already in place to derive the most benefit. By doing so, we can also make a positive contribution to social and tourism development in Northern Ireland.

Mr K Robinson:
You say that structures already exist, certainly, at a local level. If those structures were to be developed at a regional level, would that go a long way towards solving some of the problems that we face?

Mr Blair:
We do not have a blank canvas. Sometimes Government and, occasionally, local government has an institutional short-term memory. A series of reports, going back many years, have examined museum development here. We must build on those reports by articulating a policy that is fit for purpose in 2008; it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.

The development of a policy is not rocket science, and it should not require an enormous commitment of financial resources. In fact, a policy can be developed relatively easily. It is a case of examining what has gone before, building on initiatives, such as the Local Museums and Heritage Review, and articulating a policy that is fit for purpose in 2008.

Mr K Robinson:
Who or what will develop that policy?

Mr Blair:
It will require a collegiate approach. It is a collaborative process in which we all have a role to play. The Department and the Northern Ireland Museums Council (NIMC) will have a role to play. I am here today also in my capacity as chairman of the Northern Ireland Regional Curators Group, which has always had a clear view on policy matters, as have the independent and national museums. We must get the different stakeholders together to produce a coherent and relevant plan that meets the need of today’s society.

The Chairperson:
Jim Shannon’s and Pat Ramsey’s questions will be grouped.

Mr Shannon:
Thank you for the information that you have provided. You have demonstrated how a museums policy could work through regional partnership. You have informed us how you were able to secure almost £9 million worth of funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund and the European Union’s programme for peace and reconciliation. That provides an idea of what can be achieved.

It is fair to say that a museum is more than just a big building that stores and displays lots historical items and artefacts. You successfully established new museums in four district council areas, all of which benefited from the partnership. Will it always be possible to form those types of partnerships? Did one council have more ambition than another to have exhibitions or items displayed at its museum?

Last but not least, the farmhouse at Sentry Hill in Newtownabbey was effectively already a museum, because of its historic significance. Do the various councils compete for priority? How does that partnership work? I understand that it might be difficult for you to disclose some of that information. How critical is it for you to advance your ideas, not just on paper, but in reality? Could the service have been established without funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund?

Mr P Ramsey:
I welcome the witness, who sounds strong and positive about the clearly unique partnership. You have clearly outlined the nature of the funding. Will you discuss the nature of the European funding? Did it come to the partnership or to individual councils? Do you have you any knowledge of museum services outside Northern Ireland that operate models of good practices of policy or strategic value that we could study? Furthermore, who employs you or to whom do you report?

Mr Blair:
Mr Shannon’s first question was whether a museum must always be a building with old items and artefacts. That is usually the case, but not always. We have developed an infrastructure of facilities and galleries through which we provide a service. We have always viewed the service as more than bricks and mortar; rather, it is about engagement with communities. We use the museums as a base for creative collaboration with all sorts of different bodies. The councils are in partnership, and we also seek creative partnerships with different groups to extract maximum benefits from our facilities.

The service provided by museums is about bricks and mortar and caring for a collection, but it is also about community engagement, being public-facing institutions and working creatively with local communities.

Mr Shannon:
You work with four councils. Do you treat the four museums individually or as a collective? Do you treat the four as a partnership and promote them jointly?

Mr McNarry:
Be careful. He is trying to steal your clothes.

Mr Blair:
We promote them jointly and individually. For example, we have a joint website and we work on joint exhibitions and programmes. Some aspects are delivered and developed at a local level and others at a regional level — we combine the two.

Each council had particular motivations for involvement in the service, but the key to making the partnership work is ensuring that each feels that it benefits from the service. We have succeeded in that. The museum project in Ballymena may be on a larger scale than that in Newtownabbey, but the two are difficult to compare. Sentry Hill is a special place, and each museum has special qualities. Each council felt that its development ambitions were met, but ambitions vary from council to council. As Members are aware, the priorities for councils differ. The museum in Ballymena acts as the lead museum. It has certain facilities that others do not, a conservation lab, for example, and it is the lead partner in the model. It takes on additional responsibilities and delivers them to the other partners.

I am employed by Ballymena Borough Council, though a regional remit is included in my job description. On the one hand, I report to an executive board made up of representatives from the four councils, which agrees plans and so on for the service. On the other, I am also accountable through Ballymena Borough Council to my line manager, Ronnie McBride, who is the director of development, and through him to the council.

The social value of museums must be demonstrated. The Mid-Antrim Museums Service has been able to access upwards of £250,000 from the EU Special Programme for Peace and Reconciliation and deliver programmes across the four council areas that it serves. Those programmes ranged from school initiatives to working with a range of groups that completed a project through the Peace II programme. That included a group from the Sunnylands estate in Carrickfergus who explored the 1798 Act of Union.

The programme is very hands on. It is about making history accessible and enjoyable, and about breaking down some preconceptions about history and museums. We have worked with a whole range of groups, including people with learning difficulties, people from disadvantaged areas, teenagers, and men’s and women’s groups.

One of the questions concerned whether we were interested in models of good practice. I offer to your inquiry our evaluation of the community history programme, because it was heavily evaluated by an independent company that conducted a range of interviews with the programme participants. A great deal of quantitative data also exists. That was very useful in demonstrating the positive contribution that museums can make through their programmes in areas such as community development and good relations.

The Chairperson:
William, in the interests of good time management, please answer the next two questions together.

Mr McNarry:
Thank you, William; you are very welcome. Your presentation was very comprehensive. Do you think that the lack of a formal policy has enabled your group to establish its own independence and flexibility in order to successfully secure Lottery funding? In other words, do you fear that a policy might restrict your independence?

Mr McCartney:
My query concerns your relationship with the Museum Council. How do you think that that should develop under any new policy?

Mr Blair:
Having no policy is better than having bad policy. That is the case in every area of government. Having said that, there is always the potential to develop good policy, and that should be the aim. The policy should not be overly prescriptive because local communities and — in my case — local councils must have the freedom to make their own decisions. However, there are certainly benefits in having a policy framework to articulate a vision for museums, their role and value, and to make clear what positive contributions the Assembly would like museums to make, in relation to the type of agendas with which you are concerned. That would certainly be beneficial.

In the late 1990s, the then director of the Museums Council, Aidan Walsh, brokered the Mid-Antrim Partnership and the Causeway Museum Service, which is the partnership in North Antrim. Both models are similar and interesting. The genesis of the Mid-Antrim Museums Service can be traced to the work of the Museums Council at that time.

The Museums Council plays a very valuable role. The importance of maintaining central Government support for local museums should be emphasised. Obviously, I would say that, but we are able to access funding through the Northern Ireland Museums Council, which makes a very positive impact on our ability to make acquisitions or support particular conservation projects.

When working with local councils, it certainly helps if matched funding or additional, external funding can be found. Some of NIMC’s current strategies are a work in progress, but they are moving along the right lines, because they involve developing a learning strategy and considering collections management and related issues within a Province-wide framework. That is all valuable work that can only be done by NIMC. We deliver services, but NIMC is the only body that can commission research and examining what is happening in the overall context of Northern Ireland.

We have good relationships with museums in the South, we have collaborated productively with the National Museum of Ireland, and have a lot of interesting and important material on loan at the new museum in Ballymena. We have a good relationship with Glasgow Museums, which is, in many ways, a model of good practice. We have considered its work closely because it has approached issues such as sectarianism very creatively.

We try to maintain relationships on a North/South and east-west basis, but the important point is to look at good practice elsewhere and be open to it. We are very involved with the Irish Museums Association, the UK Museums Association and the International Council of Museums. It is important to have such links because they allow us to learn from others.

Mr McCausland:
You indicated that the councils in your area are quite proactive in working with museums; however, some other councils may not be as proactive. Would having a policy help to encourage such participation from councils, perhaps by better informing councillors about the potential value of such partnerships? Could a policy help to inform organisations such as the National Lottery when it is assessing funding applications, so that projects are funded on a complementary basis, rather than funding being duplicated? You mentioned a series of reports, and I know that there were reports on the national museums — were there also reports on local museums? If so, it may be helpful if the Committee could obtain a list of those.

Mr Brolly:
Mr Blair, you argued that we do not have to reinvent the wheel because a lot of base work is in place already. Fundamentally, we are talking about upgrading to a policy that is fit for purpose in 2008. You also said that the process should not be extremely expensive. What do you think of the Department’s proposal that the matter should be dealt with by independent consultants, rather than through the collegiate effort that you suggested?

Mr Blair:
Nelson, would you please remind me of your question?

Mr McCausland:
My point concerned whether a policy would help to inform local authorities and councils.

Mr Blair:
I believe that it would. One of the issues that we face is that museums are resource-intensive institutions — there is no getting away from that. Developing and caring for collections involves a cost, as does the provision of modern, high-quality programmes and good, modern, engaging galleries. Another issue is that Northern Ireland is a relatively small place and, traditionally, there has been an under-provision of museums here, which is a problem that many previous reports have tried to address. In recent years, there has been quite a lot of development. The question is: what constitutes an appropriate level of provision in Northern Ireland?

That is where a policy could help to shape decision-making. In a way, to put it bluntly, it is important to be able to distinguish between a good idea and a really bad idea. Policy has a role in that regard. The short answer is: yes.

Mr Brolly:
What about the idea of paying independent consultants to develop a policy?

Mr Blair:
I work with consultants from time to time. An enormous amount of money was spent on the local museums and heritage review, which did not amount to very much. However, a great deal of evidence was gathered at that time. The challenge is not to over-complicate things. This is not rocket science, and there may be a role for someone to pull the strands together. The sort of money that I heard being talked about originally could be better spent in ways that would be directly beneficial to the public. I would like to think that improvements could be made for a lot less money. It is not about reinventing the wheel. The set of issues to be addressed is not that complicated; it just requires a bit of common sense to get the right policy in place.

Mr K Robinson:
My final question is a Newtownabbey-based one. We have Patterson’s spade mill in Templepatrick and Sentry Hill is just up the road from it at Carnmoney. What co-operation exists at local and regional levels between museums and agencies such as the National Trust?

Mr Blair:
Patterson’s spade mill has established good links. We must consider museums and heritage in an integrated manner. Museums are a particular type of institution, with particular needs. The simple message that came out of the local museums and heritage review was that there was a need for a more joined-up approach to heritage. That is self-evident.

We have the Environment and Heritage Service — or whatever it is called now — the National Trust, local authority museums and independent museums, all of which are players. There are many organisations that are interested in history, heritage and cultural identity. Part of the challenge is to consider all of those elements in an integrated way. A museums policy, in that sense, should encourage creative collaboration between the various players. There is a tendency in organisations to work in splendid isolation from one another. That is neither cost efficient nor effective, nor does it help in getting to grips with a more coherent presentation of our history, cultural heritage and identity.

Mr K Robinson:
Just to tease that out further, would joint admission tickets similar to those offered by Translink be worthwhile? Rather than needing to buy separate tickets for a visit to a National Trust attraction or to Sentry Hill, for example, would it be better to offer a single admission ticket to three or four locations in the same geographical area?

Mr Blair:
There is a joint ticket available for admission to Sentry Hill. Many museums, such as those in Carrickfergus, Ballymena and Larne, do not charge for admission. We try to maximise voluntary spending. That is an important principle for museums. Sentry Hill is different because of the nature of the attraction; it is appropriate to charge for admission. However, most people involved in the museums sector feel that the principle of free entry is important. Simply put, I would not feel comfortable about charging someone an admission fee to look at their grandfather’s medals. We are reflecting the history of our local communities.

The collections in Ballymena and Larne, in particular, are very much community based. They have been built up through donations and the active involvement of local people, and the principle of free access is important, because it is their history that we are presenting. We should not charge for the privilege of accessing that material.

Mr K Robinson:
I am sorry to keeping returning to the same subject, but you opened the door for me when you mentioned donations. There must be thousands of items in people’s homes, for instance, that are relevant to our history. A classic example was revealed yesterday in Belfast.

In the Committee for Education, I have appealed to people to be careful about what goes into skips at times of reorganisation. As the review of public administration progresses, a lot of material that is relevant to our communities will be unearthed. How can we encourage people to donate that material? How can we encourage people to donate material that they might find in the attic following the death of their granny, for instance, to reflect local history?

Mr Blair:
Most, but not all, authorities in Northern Ireland have a museums service. Problems arise in areas in which people do not have access to a local museum service. Reports on the museums development policy stated that everyone in Northern Ireland should have access to a local facility that can serve as a repository for items that are locally relevant. However, that is difficult to achieve in council areas that do not have a museums service. Where will the people bring their material? What do people do if they want their items to be retained in their local areas?

Mr K Robinson:
Is there room for a service to screen what is useful and what should be put in a skip?

Mr P Ramsey:
This is turning into a private meeting. [Laughter.]

Mr Blair:
We make informed decisions and collect selectively. That is why we have collecting policies — they help that decision-making process. Furthermore, they help us to collect in a manner that is sustainable, because there are costs associated with collecting.

Mr K Robinson:
If we are successful in producing a comprehensive policy, it should, perhaps, contain a subsection to deal with potential donations.

Mr Blair:
Museums have collecting policies, which inform that type of decision-making. That is the value of having a local museum service, because it provides a local point of contact to which one can donate material.

Mr K Robinson:
Thank you, Mr Blair. You have been patient with me, unlike my colleague to my left.

The Chairperson:
I gave some latitude to Ken, because he offends less frequently than some others. [Laughter.]

I did not name names.

Mr McCausland:
It was a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The Chairperson:
Thank you, Mr Blair, for the comprehensive presentation.

Mr Shannon:
It is nice to hear that there is something free in Ballymena. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson:
Our next set of witnesses is from the HMS Caroline Committee. It is a single-issue group, and members must try to keep the group focused on museums policy. It is understandable that there will be interest in other aspects of the group’s work, but museums policy is our business this morning.

I welcome the witnesses, and I invite you to make your presentation.

Mr Frank Robinson (HMS Caroline Committee):
Members will have found our CVs in the papers that we submitted to the Committee, so I will not make formal introductions. In 2005, I held a meeting with the then Second Sea Lord on board the Caroline. He suggested that a small committee be set up to examine the options for the ship following its decommissioning.

The Royal Navy intends to decommission the ship some time in the next few years. At that time — 2005 — he suggested that it could be decommissioned within seven to 10 years. He suggested that a committee be formed consisting of people with an interest in heritage and tourism — but specifically excluding naval personnel, who could be slightly biased — and that the committee, if possible, should reflect the views of the general public of Northern Ireland.

The vessel could be used either for private or commercial purposes, and could possibly continue to be used on a part-time basis by the Royal Navy for training its reserves, for which the Navy would be prepared to offer some funding, on the assumption that the ship would stay in Belfast. The planned timescale at that time was between seven and 10 years, but that could be accelerated if naval budgets dictated.

A committee was subsequently convened, which I chair. It became apparent at an early stage of the committee’s existence that the vessel would not be financially viable as a tourist attraction on its own, and therefore would have to become part of a larger scheme. That view was borne out following investigation into other ships in Great Britain that are open to the public. Those attractions do not work unless they receive a great deal of funding from other sources.

The committee visited many organisations and Government Departments in a quest for a suitable maritime heritage development that could be placed adjacent to a possible mooring place for HMS Caroline, and which would generate enough momentum to finance the entire project. Following investigations, it became clear that there was a void in how our maritime and industrial heritage is exhibited in Northern Ireland generally.

The aspiration of the committee is now to include Northern Ireland’s industrial heritage — such as shipbuilding, engineering, rope-making, linen production, aircraft production, Massey, Ferguson, and Dunlop — in order to complement the maritime element of the project. It would appear that the obvious place for such a development is beside the Thompson and Alexander Docks, with the HMS Caroline taking its place as one of the jewels in that crown.

The Chairperson:
Thank you, Frank. I ask you to take two questions at a time.

Mr McCarthy:
Thank you very much for your presentation and your written submission, which is very interesting and comprehensive. I offer you my full support, and I see that you have mentioned my colleague, Sean Neeson, in your submission — he is also very committed to the work in which you are engaged. Do you think the fact that Northern Ireland has not had a museums policy until now has been detrimental to your work?

Lord Browne:
Thank you for your very good written submission. You state that you and the committee have held discussions with many organisations. Have you spoken to representatives of the main museums — the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, for example? I know that HMS Belfast is associated with the Imperial War Museum, and that that has been a very successful partnership. How can the project be developed when there is some uncertainty hanging over the future of HMS Caroline, which is due to be decommissioned in 2011?

There is talk that the ship may go back to Portsmouth. It would be essential to retain it so that it could be the focal point of a proposed maritime museum. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum houses the ship Result, the SS Nomadic has also returned to Belfast, and it would be great for the Titanic Quarter and the signature project to be linked together. Have you held talks with the various organisations responsible for those projects, and do you think a policy could be drawn up to bring all of the schemes under some central organisation?

Mr F Robinson:
We have held talks with most of those organisations. We have spoken to representatives from both the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. The proposal for a maritime and industrial heritage centre seems to have been put on the back-burner in all areas. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum seems to have a financial problem, whereas the Ulster Museum is moving towards more art-gallery-type exhibits, and the decision has been taken not to exhibit most of the industrial artefacts, such as the industrial engines and looms and so on.

The committee has spoken to representatives of the Titanic Quarter development and of the two museums in question. We have met with the Harbour Commissioners, and with all sorts of people, who all agree that it is a good idea, but do not know how it should be pulled together. The whole area of maritime and industrial heritage seems to be very diverse; that may be partly driven by the current museums policy. The people involved with the SS Nomadic constitute an independent group, as does the Lagan Legacy group, as well as those involved with the Northern Ireland Science Park, who control the leases for the dry Thompson Dock and the pumping station.

Combining those strands, under the umbrella of the museums policy, is the ideal way to move forward.

Dr Gordon Millington OBE (HMS Caroline Committee):
Mr McCarthy asked whether the lack of a museums policy was causing difficulties. Yes, it has. Belfast was a great industrial city. It was built on industry and became the largest city on this island. However, most of that industry has disappeared. We have nothing to remind people of that era or with which to sell our past work skills. A policy that allows that to happen is inherently wrong.

Mr K Robinson:
I welcome the witnesses’ comprehensive overview of the situation.

This Committee may be unaware of the uniqueness of HMS Caroline. It is not just any old warship — it is the oldest warship afloat in the Royal Navy. It is the second-oldest commissioned warship afloat in the world. She was at the forefront of turbine technology, and I believe that those turbines remain in position.

Dr Millington:
The turbines are there, and they were designed by an Irishman.

Mr K Robinson:
Therefore, there are North/South and east-west connections.

The Chairperson:
Ken has long been a champion of the HMS Caroline cause.

Mr K Robinson:
Caroline has been sitting in the Titanic Quarter for most of the past 80 years or more. American tourists arriving in huge cruise ships look across at the gem of a warship on the other side of the harbour. They see the derelict slipways for the Titanic and the drawing office. As the witnesses have said, someone must pull all that together.

I have spoken to a lot of people, and there is a tremendous amount of good will in the community for such a move. There is an endearment to HMS Caroline. This little gem has been given to us for the moment, but it may be whipped away.

Dr Millington:
There is a grave danger that she will be taken away.

Mr K Robinson:
What should we include in a policy to prevent that happening to Caroline and other such treasures?

Dr Millington spoke about Belfast’s old industrial base, and made the point that the former linen mills gave artefacts to the Ulster Museum. Will we lose those? Will they end up in some storeroom?

Dr Millington:
There was a rumour that they might disappear overseas. We are worried that a lot of stuff will disappear. Belfast had some fabulous industries. We had the largest rope-building industry in the world. We had the biggest linen mills in the world. All the associated businesses across Northern Ireland, such as making steam engines, were also superb. It is ridiculous to contemplate losing that heritage.

People of my age entered engineering after seeing that sort of stuff. It concerns me that the modern difficulty in encouraging people into science and engineering is exacerbated by the fact that they cannot see what was achieved in the past.

Mr K Robinson:
How do we address that? Do we do it through a policy, through a champion for museums, or through a champion for industrial heritage within an umbrella organisation?

The Chairperson:
That question will be parked for now. Thank you, Ken.

Mr Shannon:
My question is along the same line as Ken’s. We all appreciate the importance of our industrial heritage, which the submission underlines.

What are the best policy and the best strategy to put in place? Someone with the vision to bring that policy and that strategy to fruition is also required. I agree that the Titanic Quarter is the ideal site to house reminders of our industrial heritage. How important is a relationship with Belfast City Council as part of all of that?

Mr F Robinson:
We envisage that the area around the HMS Caroline berth could become a gateway to all the other town and county museums in Northern Ireland.

An organisation named the European Route of Industrial Heritage (ERIH) does something similar. It starts with a gateway. Visitors are taken along a trail that matches their interests. If it were shipbuilding, the visitor would be taken to the next shipyard on the route. In the case of linen, the visitor might be taken to Lisburn.

An industrial history trail has been set up successfully in Wales. We saw a gateway — not necessarily museums with parklands of industrial heritage, but we are starting with HMS Caroline. However, we recognise that it is not going to work with HMS Caroline alone, and we must acquire signature parts of all the other industries around it, including the Belfast Ropeworks Company, the aircraft factory, and so on. Aside from HMS Caroline, the public is not directed to consider the history of Massey Ferguson tractors, for example.

A tourist who came to Belfast on a cruise ship did not realise that the shipyard suffered such devastation during the Troubles. He stood 11 stories up and looked over at the Titanic slipways, but did not appreciate that until a local person explained it to him. That is worrying. People in Northern Ireland do not promote themselves well. Americans, by contrast, do.

The gateway will provide a means for the public to find such sites. We need an umbrella policy that covers the four main museums, and we like to think that this will be the fifth. Such a policy could then be extended to cover the council and smaller museums, and the localised niche museums that preserve our history and heritage. That could also embrace the history of defence, which HMS Caroline is part of.

Ms Primrose Wilson (HMS Caroline Committee):
That is one of the reasons we are here today. Officials have difficulties with us because we are not a proper group. We care passionately about HMS Caroline, but also about heritage in general and not just in the shipyard. We care most about preserving living heritage. People are interested in that. They do not want to see iconic buildings or watch a film, they want to stand and look at HMS Caroline. When they do that they are amazed, and think it fantastic. They see the docks and the drawing offices and imagine the ships being designed and built — without computers. Such experience gives a different dimension to heritage. That is important.

Mr P Ramsey:
You are most welcome and I admire your tremendous enthusiasm.

Do you know of places or regions in Britain or Europe that might serve as good models for the preservation of industrial heritage? Have you examined the mechanisms by which this project may be funded? In London or elsewhere, there may be examples of useful mechanisms that we can use.

Mr F Robinson:
The Ironbridge Gorge Museums in England provide a good example. The first iron bridge in the world, the whole town of Ironbridge and its industrial heritage are preserved in a conservation area, which is funded by industry. That works well. There is a bus service that links the works and the town. The town has been preserved as it was in 1900, and it appeals to tourists as much as to those interested in the industry.

We mentioned HMS Belfast in the River Thames, which is supported by several trusts, but not by the Royal Navy which has kept clear of it. The National Maritime Museum helps to fund it. The Royal Yacht Britannia is not self-financed; rather, it is attached to a shopping centre which is passionate about retaining it and the profits of the shopping centre are ploughed into the ship’s preservation. I have no idea what will happen when the shopping centre is sold.

Brunel’s SS Great Britain, a propeller-driven ship, was returned to its original dry dock in Bristol from the Falkland Islands. A clatter of acres, rundown dockland, was acquired with the dry dock and that is being built up and promoted. We seek to fund the preservation of HMS Caroline in the same way. We have missed the boat of the financing of the Titanic Quarter; however, we hope to bring together public and private finance. I have no doubt that both must be involved.

Mr P Ramsey:
How much would it cost to maintain, preserve and manage such a project?

Mr F Robinson:
We have not examined that — about £100 million. [Laughter.]

The Chairperson:
That is a good note on which to end your presentation. [Laughter.]

We are grateful to the representatives of the HMS Caroline Committee for their written submission and their oral evidence. I apologise for the brevity of your visit, but the Committee has five presentations to hear today.

I refer Committee members to tab 9 of their packs. Representatives from Down District Council will give evidence, after which a representative from Newry and Mourne District Council will make the final contribution. Each presentation will last for approximately 20 minutes. I welcome Sharon O’Connor, who is the director of cultural and economic development, and Mike King, who is the curator of Down County Museum.

Ms Sharon O’Connor (Down District Council):
Thank you for the opportunity to talk the Committee about an important area of concern for our council. For a long time, we have actively tried to influence the direction of museums. The Down District Council area contains one of the longest established and better resourced museums, which is almost entirely funded by a local government organisation.

We were extremely disappointed when the recommendations from the previous review were shelved, because we had worked hard to establish a policy with the Northern Ireland Museums Council. That policy was based on a subregional structure where local structures — possibly on a county-based structure — provided services in the local community.

Down District Council operates its collections policy throughout County Down, and has endeavoured to provide that service in the context of the history on County Down. We want museums to be strengthened and enhanced in the RPA process, and we have substantial human resources and social capital in museums in the Down district area.

Mr Shannon:
Thank you for giving evidence to the Committee, we appreciate your input into the inquiry. The Committee wants to examine the overall policy and to ascertain how it can be advanced. Have you had any contact with the NIMC? Does Down District Council share its resources or skills with any other council, museum or partner?

Mr McCarthy:
As a Down man, anything that comes out of County Down is nothing but the best. Has the fact that there has not been a policy on new museums been detrimental to your work?

Ms O’Connor:
As an Antrim woman, I will do my best to respond to that. I have a little bit of experience of the NIMC that I want to offer. As the curator of Down County Museum, Mike will answer the question about the services with NIMC in partnership arrangements.

I served on the NIMC for several years and was interested in its operation. Ultimately, I resigned because of other commitments. A body that takes strategic and regional direction in museums policy is required. The NIMC was never resourced appropriately to fulfil that role. In its submissions about the RPA, Down District Council expressed its view that there should be one properly resourced museums body for Northern Ireland to direct policy, support educational services and generally equip museums to provide good local services. I share that view.

Mike has been involved from a curator’s perspective.

Mr Mike King (Down District Council):
The Northern Ireland Museums Council offers us training, grant support with accreditation and advice. We have been disappointed that the strategic leadership for setting up regional services has not progressed since the review, because many parts of the review suggested that regional services could provide infrastructure for museums service delivery in Northern Ireland.

Designation of regional museums services was one of the issues that came through in the review, whereby museums such as Down County Museum could serve as the base for providing wider services in a region — perhaps in a new RPA council region. Some of the regional services have the capacity to offer services beyond their boundaries. Certainly, we have been offering a service beyond our council boundary for 27 years because our museum serves County Down but is supported by the rates paid by Down District Council residents.

We want a model like the one in England, where regional hubs have been set up. In fact, over the past seven or eight years, £150 million has been spent on those and the services have been centralised, with benefits resulting from those economies of scale. Those museums have been able to support smaller museums in their regions and give pastoral care to those smaller operations. We see Down County Museum as having the capacity to do that kind of work.

We have 15 members of staff and attract 38,000 visitors a year. Therefore, we have the capacity to develop a wider museum service. It is a shame that, after the review, actions were not taken to realise the infrastructure that was outlined in the NIMC regional museum development policy, which categorised museums as local, regional and national. According to that, we were clearly a regional museum service and were hoping at that point to be designated.

We have all the necessary factors in place — we have a collecting policy, adequate resources for documentation, conservation storage and display, educational potential, professional staff, as well as marketing potential. However, regional services need central support to enable each regional service to work with others. For example, if a museum cannot store its collections, regional storage facilities would be the common-sense solution, which would involve working with other organisations.

Ms O’Connor:
That takes us on to Mr McCarthy’s question about the limitations — the fact that we cannot develop any critical mass of services to museums. Those include conservation services, storage facilities, sharing human resource, sharing access to training and to all the requirements of environmental management conditions with particularly precious items in collections. That area is the major limitation.

Mr P Ramsey:
I welcome you both to the Committee. Earlier, you mentioned that the museum is funded solely by local government money. Is any other capital or revenue money coming in from external sources? You also referred to museums services in other regions in Britain or Europe. Do you know about the funding of museums in any other areas, or about models of good practice that could be incorporated into a new strategy?

Ms O’Connor:
We spent approximately £500,000 a year on the museum and on the running costs, which is a substantial investment. I have not done the calculations vis-à-vis our peer group, but I suspect that that is a significant investment from a local government organisation. Perhaps Mike will clarify the issues of sources of funding for capital development and collections management.

Mr King:
The museum is completely funded by the council, whose support we need. Recently, the Heritage Lottery Fund, which we are lucky to have the support of, donated considerable capital funding to the museum. We have recently finished a £1·5 million project to restore the eighteenth-century jail at the museum. The Heritage Lottery Fund donated £850,000 to the project.

It was excellent timing, because the Disability Discrimination Act 2005 had just come into force, requiring us to provide universal access to services for all our visitors. In compliance with that new legislation, the historic building was made accessible to everyone. We were able to source a bit of external funding, which enabled us to employ external designers and architects who did a fantastic job on an eighteenth-century building, which was difficult.

Now that we have established the fabric of the buildings and the access to the site, we will examine the ways in which we can reach out to the communities around us. We will ask external funders to help facilitate an outreach project in partnership with other councils. We plan to partner with Newry and Mourne Museum, with which we will no doubt be linked under RPA. Over the next few years, we plan to establish an outreach project with communities in Down, Newry and Mourne.

We will need access to about £200,000 — considerably less than our previous project — to make communities aware of the work that we do, as well as to help them conduct projects in their areas.

Mr McNarry:
Thank you for your presentation. First, why do you think that there has been a reluctance to establish a policy? Secondly, what impact will the new proposed council structure have on the formulation of an overall policy?

Ms O’Connor:
The reluctance to establish a policy has been for purely financial reasons. Museums are funded either by their local council or through a facility operated by Museums and Galleries Northern Ireland (MAGNI). Museums that do not have such a facility are totally reliant on voluntary efforts. Funding operates on an uneven playing field. Our council put in the investment, and yet other council areas benefited from MAGNI support.

The establishment of a policy was partly resisted because funding was required under RPA developments, which were discussed during the previous review and, certainly, during the development of the Museums Council’s original policy document in late 1999 or early 2000. It was proposed that adequate subregional structures be put in place to provide museum services in each local area. Therefore, I suspect that the concern about implementing a policy was financial.

Mr McNarry:
It appears that you have survived very well without a policy. Will a policy will benefit or weaken your position and independence?

Ms O’Connor:
It will strengthen our position. Every local area deserves to have a properly resourced museum facility.

If proper regional arrangements exist, better services will be delivered on a regional basis. We can benefit only by virtue of that structure, because we are well placed. We have our pedigree, our history, our heritage, and our staff who are well qualified in their field. We have built up a body of knowledge on a very impressive collection. Our role will be strengthened only by a properly resourced regional network to which we can contribute services. We can also be part of a structure that has a better capacity to exist in partnership arrangements, which are very weak at present.

Mr McNarry:
I did not get much information about the RPA.

Mr King:
The Museums Council established a policy whereby the development of seven to nine regional services could be realised under RPA. It is an opportunity for new museum services to be nurtured within that structure, or perhaps between councils. Some areas do not have that capacity.

If it were possible to make museum services a requirement, each council area could put their own structures in place. Those museums could act as a focus for cultural activity, and could become centres of excellence — storehouses of local identity, magnets for tourism and indicators of the value placed by local communities on the quality of life in an area. They could become a nexus for joined-up cultural activity in the regions that will become the new council areas.

Mr McNarry:
My reason for asking the question is that your new neighbours in Ards do not have a museum facility. I know that you represent Down District Council, but the proposed new structures will create a north Down and Ards council. Do you see a competition developing in light of what you have just said about a requirement for councils to get involved? Will that lead to a greater extension of partnerships, given that you claim to represent Down? You represent a bit of it, but will partnerships develop?

Ms O’Connor:
Our collection covers County Down, and we have a wide collections policy, which I invite members to come along to assess. We believe that there is potential to have either a regional service for which new councils can establish service level agreements, or for the development of existing clusters of expertise. Expertise exists in north Down, but less so in Ards. We certainly have some expertise in Downpatrick. There are a few black holes in museum service provision in Northern Ireland, but there is almost a network at a subregional level, which, if properly resourced and structured, would allow local councils to take responsibility for delivering a certain standard.

Mr McNarry:
Would you be happy to encourage the ratepayers of north Down and Ards to contribute to your work?

Ms O’Connor:
We tried to sell that service, and that type of model has been successful in mid-Antrim. We have not been successful in persuading our neighbouring councils to buy into the services that can be provided. That is no reason for dispensing with that potential model. The alternative to that is that areas without a properly resourced museum service would have to develop one from scratch.

Mr McNarry:
Keep trying.

Ms O’Connor:
Museum curatorial staff are not easy to recruit. It would be more cost-effective to have staff with expertise that we could capitalise on, rather than reinventing the wheel all over the countryside, which would not be cost-effective from the ratepayer’s perspective, no matter which council area they belong to.

Mr McCartney:
In answer to an earlier question, you said that the Museums Council was not properly resourced, and you spoke about one body in future implementing policy. If it was properly resourced, would the Museums Council, as a single body, be able to implement policy?

Ms O’Connor:
There are issues of resources and duplication of effort. The establishment of training courses and accreditation systems require systems expertise and administrative and human resources capacity. That does not come cheaply. It struck me, when I served on the Museums Council, that its budget was approximately £250,000. I was there, in my capacity of working for a museum, and we spent almost £500,000 on one museum. It seemed that the resources were not adequate to properly cover the entire region.

There is a gap, because the Northern Ireland Museums Council does not have the resources to employ a range of such experts as conservators and curators, and neither does MAGNI — on behalf of all the people with whom they do not think that they have a relationship. Those people are required to maintain standards in collection management. It is better to consolidate one’s resources and ensure that at least one organisation is fit for purpose, rather than to fund two.

Mr K Robinson:
I am considering the silo approach. Down District Council’s St Patrick signature project is being promoted by the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and being pursued by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI). However, you have a critical mass — and those are your words, Sharon. You have the Down Cathedral, the Down County Museum, the Downpatrick and County Down Railway, Castle Ward, St Patrick’s trail and Saul. There is so much in your area. How do you join that up and access funding from sources that are not your natural target, such as the Tourist Board and DETI?

Ms O’Connor:
We have attempted to do that for a long time. Down District Council initiated some of the partnership arrangements; we were influential in having the St Patrick/Christian Heritage signature project included in the Northern Ireland Tourist Board strategy. We have been keen partners in all those endeavours, and we are compiling a plan for all the assets in our area and attempting to update visitor information and visitor servicing exhibitions, for instance. It is difficult to achieve that across county or council boundaries, but we are keen partners. We strive at all times to become involved in joined-up working, by way of proposing strategies.

Down District Council co-operated in the St Patrick signature project and in the Armagh Down tourism partnership. We have also co-operated in smaller projects, and we are involved with museum and community-based heritage projects across the county. Although we are doing that out of our own resources, we are trying to leverage funds from the Tourist Board or heritage funds that will to allow us to expand and develop that work.

The fantastic Christian heritage in our environs is an important part of the focus for Down County Museum.

The Chairperson:
Thank you, Sharon and Mike, for your written and oral presentations and for answering questions.

The representative from the Newry and Mourne Council has not yet arrived.

Mr Shannon:
If someone does not attend, for whatever reason, do we accept his or her written submission as evidence?

The Chairperson:
We can reach an opinion on that. That would be common sense.

Mr Shannon:
It would be. Has the person concerned informed the Committee that she is unable to attend?

The Committee Clerk:
No. She is expected today. Staff have telephoned her office, and she is on her way, but she has not arrived.

Mr Shannon:
Perhaps something has happened.

Mr McNarry:
Is it not a Gerard who is attending?

The Chairperson:
No. It is Ms Noreen Cunningham.

Mr Shannon:
Any Noreen that I know is a female, but that is by the way.

The Chairperson:
She is the museum curator for Newry and Mourne District Council.

Mr Shannon:
Can we do the other business, if she is on her way?

The Chairperson:
I think that is sensible. Thank you, Jim.

Mr McNarry:
Do we retain Hansard?

The Chairperson:
Yes.

The Committee suspended.

On resuming —

The Chairperson (Mr McElduff):
I welcome Noreen Cunningham from Newry and Mourne District Council. Thank you for coming along today, Noreen. Members have agreed to stay for a short while to hear your presentation. Ideally, you should make a brief opening statement, giving your take on a museums policy or the lack thereof. Members will then ask questions. Thank you for your written submission.

Ms Noreen Cunningham (Newry and Mourne District Council):
I am the curator of Newry and Mourne Museum, which is housed in Bagenal’s Castle, a sixteenth-century building that has recently been restored with Heritage Lottery Fund money. It was opened to the public in March 2007. Since then, we have had over 58,000 visitors.

A wide range of facilities, including a tourist information centre, is located there, with a number of permanent galleries and some temporary exhibition space. The museum, the museum subcommittee and the council support the operation, delivery and implementation of an accredited museum policy.

We welcome a museum policy based on an system of accreditation standards that gives assurance that museums can look after their heritage assets, and that validates and strengthens the principle of self-government and financial support for local museums — a principle that operates throughout the UK and Ireland. The terms of reference for the inquiry into the development of a museums policy is to be welcomed. Such a policy would provide an important strategic framework, allowing resources to be prioritised and implementation of partnership projects with other sectors, such as education. It would also facilitate a smooth transition for local government museums to the structures established by the review of public administration.

The Newry and Mourne Museum has benefited significantly from the advocacy, training and grant aid offered by the Northern Ireland Museums Council. We support the retention of that body until a museum policy is implemented.

The Chairperson:
Thank you, Noreen. You are one of several witnesses who has had a good experience of the NIMC.

Mr Shannon:
Thank you for coming along. It is good to hear your comments, which echo those of other council representatives who have attended. Your experience at Bagenal’s Castle is similar to that of representatives of the Mid-Antrim Museums Service, and Down District Council.

With the exception of the farmhouse, those were projects, and not just museums. A museum on its own would be difficult to finance, and I presume that that is the reason for the projects. The Newry and Mourne Museum includes a tourist information centre and a gallery, and you wish to be recognised for funding.

How important was it for you to develop the museum and, at the same time, develop other accessories to engineer funding so that there could be a museum? I take it that the museum was the initial idea, which was then developed to maintain funding.

The museum has attracted many visitors in its first year and, obviously, it is seeking to attract more visitors next year. What have you done to promote that, and have you worked with any other councils or partners? Your location gives you the potential for tourism from across the border. Have you promoted your museum across the border?

Ms Cunningham:
Although it was small, we had a registered museum at the Arts Centre in Newry. The rediscovery of Bagenal’s Castle gave Newry the opportunity to have a good museum. It was receiving funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund, but it was also important that we had reached certain standards. Most of the money came from the Heritage Lottery Fund, although the council gave a significant amount — around £500,000. We also received money from the Northern Ireland Tourist Board for the fit-out of our tourist information centre, which forms the reception area. We also have a cafe.

We wanted to create a full visitor experience. As visitors came in, we wanted to provide them with information on what they could see in the area, give them the opportunity to have a cup of tea in the café, and have a look around the galleries. Next year, we want to develop local history research facilities for those interested in family history.

We have internal partnerships in council with our tourism section, and we also access any opportunities for partnership marketing of our building with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board (NITB), for example, NITB’s St Patrick/Christian heritage tourism signature project.

We have a long history of association with the museum in Dundalk. From 2000, both museums had a shared education post, funded by Co-operation Ireland, which worked well and operated for about five years. By showing that an education officer was able to provide a really good service for the local schools, I was able to make a case to the council to have our own funded education officer once the Co-operation Ireland funding ran out. More recently, we have operated a cross-border project with Louth County Archive Services. Over the past year, we received money from East Border Region Partnership to have our historic archives catalogued and, again, the cataloguer worked in both venues. That has been our partnership.

More recently, through Reminiscence Network Northern Ireland, we have a shared reminiscence officer between Craigavon Museum Services and ourselves. Partnerships are important to us.

The Chairperson:
In the interests of time management, Noreen, I ask you to take the next few questions together.

Mr McCartney:
Earlier, we heard that the Museums Council was under-resourced. What is your experience of that, and how do you think that services should be developed, particularly if we are opting for a new museums policy?

Mr McCarthy:
How has the fact that there has not been a museums policy affected your work?

Mr Brolly:
I am interested in your view on whether a policy would facilitate a smooth transition for local government museums in respect of the review of public administration, in light of the strong reservations that were expressed in a presentation earlier this morning.

Ms Cunningham:
I do not know whether the Museums Council is currently under-resourced — it would be better placed to answer that, but, from a museum point of view, we have benefited greatly from its advocacy training and grant aid. The Museums Council has helped us to obtain part-funded posts. However, if established funding were in place, it could create funding streams that we could apply to for larger projects.

The amount of funding that we receive from the Museums Council is curtailed by the pot of money that it has access to. If the Museums Council were better resourced, there would be more opportunities for development of local museums.

A museums policy would provide an important strategic framework for the development of museums in Northern Ireland in future. Some parts of Northern Ireland have several museums, while other areas have very few. In light of the review of public administration, a museums policy could facilitate a smooth transition.

Many museum curators are worried about what might happen if some of the functions of the Northern Ireland Museums Council were transferred to local government. However, I do not how that would work in practical terms. We would prefer that no void be created, and that a policy would facilitate a smooth transition, and that we would not be left without an advocacy body, without training and without funding. We are funded by Newry and Mourne District Council, but it is important for us to access funds from the Museums Council in order to buy artefacts for our collection or to buy conservation materials. That is an extremely important funding source for us.

Mr K Robinson:
If we are finished with the technical questions, I have a burning question for Noreen: is it not a wee bit careless to lose a castle?

Ms Cunningham:
Perhaps it had slipped from people’s memory.

Mr K Robinson:
How did that happen? I know a little bit about it, but how do you lose a castle that has been there for several hundred years?

Ms Cunningham:
It has been there since about 1560 and was built by Nicholas Bagenal. During the Reformation, the rights and lands of Newry’s Cistercian abbey were given to Bagenal, who was from Staffordshire, and he built his castle there. It was used as a castle for only 150 years, and the Bagenal family died out in 1712.

The Needhams — Richard Needham’s family, incidentally — inherited the property, but they later moved to Mourne Park, outside Kilkeel, and the Kilmorey estate leased the property to merchants in Newry. It then became a house, and, more recently, it was used as a bakery. Other buildings were erected around it, and although the people who worked there knew that the building was very old, they thought it was the abbot’s house, rather than Bagenal’s Castle.

The Chairperson:
Thank you, Noreen, for your presentation and written submission, and for answering questions.