COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

OFFICIAL REPORT

(Hansard)

Inquiry into the Development of a
Museums Policy for Northern Ireland

18 September 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Tim Cooke ) National Museums Northern Ireland
Ms Amanda Lilley )
Dr Jim McGreevy )

Ms Elaine Hill ) Craigavon Borough Council

Dr Ian Adamson ) The Somme Association
Mr Ian Vincent )
Mrs Carol Walker )

Ms Sarah McHugh ) Fermanagh District Council
Ms Bronagh Cleary )

The Chairperson (Mr McElduff):

I welcome the team from National Museums Northern Ireland. The witnesses are led by the body’s chief executive, Tim Cooke, who is joined by Ms Amanda Lilley, director of finance and planning, and Dr Jim McGreevy, director of collections and interpretation.

Mr Tim Cooke ( National Museums Northern Ireland):

Thank you for the invitation to discuss this important matter. The Committee received our written submission in June, and members will be increasingly familiar with the work of National Museums Northern Ireland. Furthermore, having appeared before you in April to present an overview of the organisation and its work, I will not rehearse any more of that.

I wish to draw some matters to the Committee’s attention before questions and further discussion. Members should note that there is significant ongoing investment in the National Museums sector. In our case, DCAL has supplied funding of £12·85 million in revenue in 2008, and an extensive capital programme — which arose from the most recent CSR settlement — of £26 million for the next three years. That signifies a marked improvement in both revenue and capital compared with previous years, which indicates the growing recognition of the contribution of National Museums to society.

Members will be aware of The Museums and Galleries ( Northern Ireland) Order 1998, which established the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland — which is our full legal title. That Order provides our statutory framework and dictates our approach to strategy, business and governance. Our current corporate strategy covers 2006-09 and is a medium-term strategic document that is agreed with the Department and the Minister. Moreover, we formulate an annual business plan that is approved by our board of trustees, the Department and the Minister, and we draw up an annual accounts report that is submitted to the Assembly. We engage in regular dialogue with DCAL about day-to-day business and how to develop a strategic long-term approach.

We can learn lessons from work on museums policy in other jurisdictions. Several documents are available, and we have sent details of what we consider the most important framework documents to the Committee. I draw members’ attention to a document entitled ‘Understanding the Future: Priorities for England’s Museums’, which is a follow up to ‘Understanding the Future; Museums and 21 st Century Life’. That document outlines the Westminster Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s (DCMS) priorities for museums for the next decade, which include fulfilling their potential as learning resources and embracing their role in fostering, exploring and questioning identities of diverse communities.

Other priorities include improvements to the dynamism and efficiency of collections, skills of museum workforces, and the benefits of closer consultation with partners outside the sector. All those themes are relevant to our future progression. However, it is not necessarily an exact or comprehensive template. We might, for example, be more specific about the potential economic and tourism benefits of museums.

In the UK, DCMS introduced free entry to national museums in 2001. That applies, partly, to our national museums. Entry to the Ulster Museum and Armagh County Museum is free, whereas entry to the Ulster American Folk Park and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum is not. The introduction of free entry to national museums in England occasioned a 66% increase in the number of visitors, and, therefore, there are major issues related to funding and — if I may put it in this way — real cultural democracy.

It is worth mentioning cross-departmental planning. The Northern Ireland Museums Council’s (NIMC) submission outlines succinctly that a museums policy is, in its own right, larger than the sponsor Department. Museums play a role in tourism, which is the responsibility of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; a role in education, for which the Department of Education is responsible; and, furthermore, museums impact on social regeneration and community development, which falls under the Department for Social Development’s remit. Moreover, museums play a role in higher education, which is the responsibility of the Department for Employment and Learning, and are central to the major issue of infrastructure planning, which is dealt with by the Department for Regional Development.

A museums policy must be set in a much broader context and must incorporate a vision of society. The most frequently cited example of successful cultural infrastructure development — which, like a spider’s web, crosses into broader streams of society — is the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao. If given the opportunity, I recommend that members visit that museum as an example of how a cultural project can lie at the heart of a wider regional regeneration strategy.

Finally, National Museums Northern Ireland is interested in the issue of tax benefits for donations. Under current UK legislation, people can benefit from tax breaks when they donate a cultural object of national significance to a national museum. Unfortunately, people must be dead to do so.

National Museums, as well as other national museums bodies across the UK, has argued for the extension of the acceptance-in-lieu scheme to living donors. Such a scheme applies in the Republic of Ireland, where donors may avail of significant tax benefits and opportunities. For example, a person who wishes to donate a painting that is worth in excess of €50,000, and which the Council of National Cultural Institutions deems sufficiently significant, can negotiate a tax benefit with the tax authorities while they are still alive. Such a scheme could lead to an increasing number of donations of work were it to be adopted here.

Thank you, Chairperson.

The Chairperson:

Thank you for your presentation, Tim. Your last point related to a very specific idea. During a recent visit to the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin, we discovered that the Haughey family had recently donated items to the Museum of Country Life in Castlebar.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you for your presentation. Do you think that the lack of — thus far — a museums policy has had a detrimental impact on the museums sector in Northern Ireland? If so, what has been the nature of that impact?

Mr Cooke:

Thank you, Mr McCarthy. I set out briefly the framework that we use, which, from our point of view, has brought some positive benefits in recent years.

In answer to your question, Mr McCarthy, National Museums Northern Ireland believes that a museums policy will help to develop a more comprehensive framework for museums and to develop their future in Northern Ireland. One such benefit will be the mainstreaming of museums. The policy will put museums right at the heart of Government; it will allow DCAL and other bodies to more obviously recognise the broad contribution that museums make across a range of agendas. It will enable the issue of museums to move beyond the immediate DCAL family and to be considered in relation to much broader agendas, such as education and tourism, which, as you know, do not fall under the DCAL’s remit.

On a macro scale, because there are no clearly laid-out principles for a coherent and co-ordinated approach to museum relationships in Northern Ireland, the policy has developed, to some extent, on an ad hoc basis.

Mr Brolly:

Much of what you said, Tim, obviously focused on the viability of museums, especially since National Museums is almost entirely dependent on grants. If museums opened all weekend, more funds could be raised. As was the case in England, if visitor numbers increased, a stronger case could be made to the Department for funding, because of the greater numbers being served and the effect that that would have on the wider economy. Everyone is conscious of the “ Belfast Sunday”, when tourists find it difficult to buy even a cup of tea in the city. Perhaps a cafeteria in a museum could be a bolthole for them.

Mr Cooke:

Opening hours are an important factor in the service that we provide. Before the closure of the Ulster Museum, it was open on Saturdays and Sundays, albeit for a reduced number of hours.

The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum is open at weekends, as too is W5. Therefore, it is not simply an issue of opening hours, but a broader issue of affordability for some members of the public. That is supported by the fact that there was a massive rise in visitor numbers in the UK when free entry to museums was introduced.

Mr Brolly:

Museums can raise some money themselves while generally offering people free opening. However, it would give you leverage towards greater funding if numbers increased, which, I imagine, they would if access to museums were increased considerably at weekends. For the most part, people tend to visit such places at weekends.

Mr Cooke:

I appreciate that point. A review of opening hours across sites is currently under way, which will certainly result in increased opening hours at weekends.

Lord Browne:

You have intimated that you would be in favour of a policy of free admission. Have you any other proposals to increase self-generated finance? You receive a considerable grant from DCAL. Have you undertaken any research into museums outside Northern Ireland that have free admission and on how they have generated more visitors? Do you have a method of profiling the visitors and tourists who come to museums so that you can identify visitors from outside of Northern Ireland, numbers of young people, and so on?

Mr Cooke:

Yes; we have a commercial strategy for our organisation, which is quite aggressively implemented. We raise about £2 million annually of our own funding in addition to grant-in-aid. We have clear targets for increasing that amount of money through retail, catering and corporate-hire facilities. We have been restructuring the organisation somewhat in order to bring new skills into the organisation to enable it to be more successful. That is backed by a planned programme of capital investment to support improved commercial infrastructure. For example, when the Ulster Museum reopens, there will be a new and extended shop and restaurant on the ground floor. That is partly about generating income, but also about improving facilities for our visitors.

The picture in respect of commercial progress in national museums here, in the UK and in the Republic is mixed. Some organisations, such as the Tate in London, which is a big brand, adopt a substantial commercial approach; others, less so. One of the specific proposals in our business plan for 2008 is to establish a separate trading company for National Museums Northern Ireland, the objective being to gift back its profits to National Museums as a charity.

As for visitor profiles, we have a system of exit polls, which give us a flavour — a picture — of the number of out-of-state visitors. However, we are working to improve that through a new ticketing system that will give us more information about the origin of visitors. The picture is different in each of the sites. For example, a high proportion of visitors at the Ulster American Folk Park in Omagh are from out of state. At the Ulster Museum, there tends to be a preponderance of local people. It depends partly where places lie on the tourist circuit.

Mr McCausland:

Can you offer some indication of the relationship between National Museums Northern Ireland and the various independent museums in respect of skills, artefacts, etc? How do you envisage that that will develop and fit into a strategy?

Mr Cooke:

If you do not mind, I shall call on my colleague, Dr McGreevy, director of collections and interpretation. He oversees the detail of relationships with local museums. I want to make the point, however, that we are closely involved with the Northern Ireland Museums Council.

Mr McCausland:

I see your role as complementing that of the Museums Council.

Mr Cooke:

Yes, indeed. If you do not mind, I shall ask Dr McGreevy to answer that question.

Dr Jim McGreevy ( National Museums Northern Ireland):

It certainly is a complementary relationship and, for a long time, we have engaged positively with local museums on an individual basis and through the Northern Ireland Museums Council.

We have been involved in NIMC training programmes as a way of sharing expertise in subjects and skills with local museums and practitioners. We operate an extensive loans programme with local museums and heritage centres across the Province, and, especially more recently since the temporary closure of the Ulster Museum, we have had in place an active outreach initiative involving exhibitions, lectures and exhibition-related events.

Mr Shannon:

The Committee is keen to ascertain how the appeal and attraction of museums can be advanced, and how private-sector funding can be accessed. You have offered examples of how that is done across the water. How can those examples be transferred to Northern Ireland?

You stated in your submission that free entry to national museums in Great Britain resulted in significant increases in visitor numbers. How can that be achieved here, and what would be the cost implications in Northern Ireland — being a smaller area that is strongly dependent on income from admission fees? Again, being a smaller area than Great Britain, there might not be as much private-sector funding available here, so from where do you think such funding might come?

Mr Cooke:

There was a significant increase in visitor numbers when free admission was introduced for GB national museums. There was also a significant increase in their funding from central Government, so their grant aid was significantly increased; first, to offset the loss of income from admissions and, secondly, to take into account the additional pressures on staff and facilities from increased numbers. Whether that was adequate recompense for the loss in income is a moot point.

The thrust must be about increasing participation and access, using whatever innovative policy and practical instruments we can in order to ensure that our museums are accessed and used by as many people as possible, both locals and foreign tourists. However, there is not the capacity in our current funding to move to a blanket policy of free admission.

In respect of our own enterprise and the involvement of private-sector sponsorship or gifts, we are re-gearing the organisation to be more commercial in order to drive as much self-generated income as we reasonably can, bearing in mind our need to maintain the integrity of our museums and their core purpose. There is much work to be done with regard to involving the private sector in cultural activity. There are some examples of that, but they tend to be limited.

To that degree, we are somewhat out of step with many other places in the UK, the Republic and the United States, where there is a much more developed culture and tradition of private-sector support for the arts. We are working at that all the time, and we have been working to attract funding for the Ulster Museum. However, relatively little of the support for the Ulster Museum has come from private sources; it has come from established foundations that support the arts — chiefly the Department and the Heritage Lottery Fund. There does not seem to be a strong tradition of private donation and private-sector involvement in the arts here, and that remains a big challenge for us.

Mr Shannon:

You said that there is a tradition in the UK mainland, the States and elsewhere to support the arts. Do you have any examples from those countries that could be used to introduce private funding and partnerships through companies here, or have you been trying to attract funding but have been unsuccessful? Have you found the private sector to be uninterested?

Mr Cooke:

It is a big challenge. We have been very proactive in trying to attract private-sector support for the Ulster Museum, and have had limited success. However, that is not for want of trying, or asking and telling people about what we are doing. A specific fund-raising team has been working on that, and I have also been actively involved. In the States, it would not be unusual for someone to put up tens of millions of dollars for the new wing of an art gallery. That simply does not happen in this part of the world.

Mr Shannon:

Obviously, it will be wealthy people who contribute so much. There is a list of Northern Ireland millionaires, and perhaps you should start knocking on their doors — or perhaps things have not progressed that far yet.

Mr Cooke:

Part of the problem is that everyone is knocking on their doors.

Mr K Robinson:

I apologise for arriving late and for missing your initial presentation. My question is related to Mr Shannon’s. Mr Cooke talked about seeking private money. We tend to think in terms of the big firms and corporations here, but around 85% of our economy is based on small and medium-sized firms. Newtownabbey Borough Council recently put its roundabouts out to tender, and it was knocked down in the rush of small businesses that wanted to have an input. Have you targeted the smaller businesses, rather than the big boys that we can all think of?

Mr Cooke:

We have talked to a range of small and medium-sized enterprises, and we have had limited success for sponsorship of specific projects. However, one of the problems is that the return from the investment in time and effort of an organisation can often be disproportionate to the benefits that are gained. Although £5,000 or £10,000 is welcome for a short-term limited programme, it is a non-strategic use of our resources. We have been trying to concentrate on the bigger projects. However, we need to grow and develop private-sector support in this part of the world, and anything that the Committee can do to encourage that, and any ideas that it has, will be more than welcome.

Mr D Bradley:

You said that some museum facilities charge an entrance fee and some do not. Have any comparisons been carried out between attendances at the free-entry facilities and those that charge? Is there any evidence that charging for entry discourages attendance?

Mr Cooke:

Comparisons have been carried out internally, but they are probably not conclusive because of the particular constituencies — I refer to social and geographical constituencies, as opposed to political constituencies — from which visitors tend to be drawn. The evidence for non-charging, and the benefit that that means for access and participation, was the evidence for the introduction of free entry into the national museums in GB.

Mr D Bradley:

Should a museums policy reflect the growing number of Irish and Ulster-Scots speakers in Northern Ireland? Should interpretative facilities be available in one or other or both of those languages?

Mr Cooke:

Potentially, yes. Our organisation is committed to providing guidance and other material in several languages — not just the indigenous languages that you mentioned, but a broad range of foreign languages. Doing so ensures that visitors can access material in their first or chosen language.

A broader issue is about diversity as a whole. I mentioned the DCMS priorities, which include museums embracing the role and fostering, exploring, celebrating and questioning the identities of diverse communities. Therefore, museums in Northern Ireland have a broader role to play in diversity — beyond language.

Mr D Bradley:

Do you believe that that should that be reflected in a museums policy?

Mr Cooke:

The diversity issue should be reflected in a museums policy.

Mr D Bradley:

As museums are largely about preserving the history of an immediate area, and as Irish and Ulster-Scots traditions are part of the fabric of that area, would it be sensible to conclude that they should be represented in a major way through the provision of interpretive facilities?

Mr Cooke:

It depends how broad or specific a museums policy is.

Mr D Bradley:

Are you suggesting that it is an operational issue that should be left to individual museums?

Mr Cooke:

It could be. Our organisation accepts its obligation to provide material in people’s first or chosen language and that is something to which National Museums is committed.

Mr D Bradley:

Considering the quite large number of Irish-medium schools, and given that you emphasise the links between museums and education, does it not logically follow that museums should cater for that sector of the education system?

Mr Cooke:

I believe that it should.

Mr McNarry:

What National Museums Northern Ireland does is great — superb.

I cannot help but think that your ambitions are too low. Is that because you believe that that is all that you can do and to do any more, to place the bar higher, you might rock someone’s boat or upset the applecart? I gather that everyone has a lot to say and to tell you about what you should do. However, your submission seems to consist mainly of what you think that you can get away with. I understand that the main reason for that is funding.

I heard what you told Jim Shannon about the private sector. Northern Ireland does not have an equivalent of a Carnegie Institute, but I do not believe that enough is being done in that direction. As a result, sections of the arts in which we are interested seem to be almost controlled by cliques, the gin-and-tonic-brigade, or whatever you want to call them. Therefore, those elements of the arts are not broadened out. I do not know whether your organisation does or whether it is farmed out around the country. I was particularly interested in what you said about increasing the cultural nature of what museums do. I hope that you stick with that.

I do not know whether you can do it, but I put it to you that there should be provision for a national art gallery. I understand that National Museums Northern Ireland has loads of hidden treasures that the public cannot view because there is nowhere to display them. I also understand that some highly competent living artists in Northern Ireland have difficulty in finding a wall on which to hang their work. Therefore, I want you to address whether, even as a future ambition, you would be prepared to take on the portfolio of a national art gallery, and, if so, how the Committee could assist you to achieve that.

The Committee has experience of organisations, such as the Northern Ireland Events Company, that appeared to be doing well. One of the biggest accusations levelled at the Health Service is that it has far too many pen-pushers and not enough doctors and nurses. As you grow and develop, is there a risk that you concentrate on administrative staff and neglect what many people regard as your duty, namely, to embrace the visual side of a world-class museum in Northern Ireland?

Mr Cooke:

Several pertinent questions have been asked. During my time working for National Museums, that is that first time that I have been accused of not being ambitious enough. Often, I have been accused of being too ambitious. I cannot entirely agree with you, Mr McNarry, about the context in which you said that. However, you are right that —

Mr McNarry:

Perhaps I should explain: you may be holding back from talking about certain projects, but this is the place to say what you want to do. I do not want you to hold back because you think that you may not receive support. I would rather that you told the Committee about any such projects, and we will see where we go from there.

Mr Cooke:

Thank you for that. In that context, there is a substantial vision for the existing sites. The Committee is aware of the major refurbishment of the Ulster Museum. We started with nothing, and we now have £15·2 million in the bank. The building is in deep construction and will open next summer.

Mr McNarry:

Which bank? [Laughter.]

 Mr Cooke:

I am not sure that I should disclose that information.

In the past number of years, the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has received significant investment, and substantial plans are being drawn up for a new visitors’ centre and education suite there. Similarly, the New World site at the Ulster American Folk Park in Omagh will be re-landscaped and will have three new houses erected on it. There is, therefore, a continuing vision and ambition for the existing sites.

However, you are correct, Mr McNarry, about the existence of projects beyond those sites. In my written submission to the Committee in June 2008, I identified two of them: an art gallery, and maritime and industrial heritage. Both require a more ambitious and concerted effort, not only from us but more broadly, because the remit extends beyond National Museums. Thank you for pointing that out, Mr McNarry.

Members will be aware that the Ulster Museum has good facilities for displaying art, but they are inadequate and they do not enable us to display the majority of art collections. The board would, therefore, be highly supportive of a new self-standing art gallery.

Mr McNarry:

You have £15·2 million in a bank whose name you will not divulge. Why was a bid not submitted for an art gallery? Why was that not incorporated in your plans for development? Why did you not try to obtain the other £5 million or £10 million that is required?

The Chairperson:

During the Committee’s discussion last week, it was decided to discuss formally the idea of an art gallery, but no opinion has yet been reached. However, as an MLA, David has every right to be strongly supportive of it.

Mr Cooke:

You are absolutely right, we work within a context of expectation of what might be possible, trying to surmise what funding might be available and whether there will be more departmental and broader political support for it. That forms a calculation about which projects should be progressed.

Approximately seven years ago, my predecessor made a substantial proposition for a new art gallery for Belfast. The reality of that was, Mr McNarry, that it did not attract the requisite support.

In refocusing the project that is underway at the Ulster Museum, that was something that we thought we could attract support for, and that turned out to be the case. That is certainly not the limit of our ambition for the display of art, and there are various options for the creation of a new art gallery. For example, it could be done by the renewal and refurbishment of an existing building, or by the construction of a new building on one of our existing sites — such as the Ulster Museum site which has a swathe of land beside the building that we own — or on another site. We have that in our sights and, indeed, in our business plan for this year.

We want to revisit the proposal for an art gallery. There is ambition in that territory, and I welcome your encouragement.

There are also substantial issues about future developments of maritime and industrial heritage. Members will be aware that two proposals are on the table in relation to the Titanic — the Titanic Signature Project and Titanic Dock. One is from the Titanic Quarter and the other is from the Odyssey Trust Company (OTC). We do not know what the outcome of those proposals will be. However, regardless of the outcome, a wider issue of maritime interpretation and industrial heritage needs to be addressed, including issues about the SS Nomadic, HMS Caroline and the Result. The way that we reflect the story of our shipbuilding, industrial heritage and aircraft industry at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum at Cultra should be considered. There have been attempts to do the same thing with regard to the shipbuilding industry, but the focus is very much on rail and road aspects. The Dalchoolin area of the museum certainly needs substantial long-term investment for the future.

Mr McCausland:

I welcome the reference to the maritime museum, and I emphasise the fact that the earliest developments in that regard were on the north Belfast side of the lough. The east Belfast side was a bit of an afterthought.

The Chairperson:

I do not hear any mention of west Belfast or south Belfast.

Mr McCausland:

They did not really exist at that time. The north Belfast area still has the graving dock — now at the Laganside building, so I am sure that that will be an important factor in determining where you locate your maritime museum.

Mr Cooke:

I will note Mr McCausland’s remarks.

Mr McNarry:

On the question of getting top-heavy with administrative staff —

Mr Cooke:

There are substantial statutory and governance obligations that go alongside the running of any public-sector organisation. We must be staffed adequately in order to meet those responsibilities. The whole thrust of what we are doing is to reposition National Museums for the twenty-first century as an organisation that is focused on public engagements, on increasing the benefits of our national museums and their collections, on knowledge and sites for all the people of this place and for the increasing number of visitors. That is our exclusive focus, Mr McNarry.

The Chairperson:

I remind members that we are focusing today on the development of a museums policy. In a way, this has been a general inquisition of National Museums Northern Ireland, and it is very interesting.

Mr K Robinson:

I assure you that this question will be on the museums policy. Given that you have your own policy and vision, what flexibility does your programme have to respond to need? You have mentioned some of you maritime aspects. What would happen if one of those items had to be rescued — for want of a better term? I am thinking about the Sir Samuel Kelly lifeboat in Donaghadee, which is closely linked to the Princess Victoria disaster and, which I believe, is in private hands. There is also a rather larger piece of hardware in Belfast dock. Does your policy allow you to move quickly in order to ensure that that piece of our heritage remains in Belfast?

The Chairperson:

Tim, I ask that you take note of that and respond to the questions from Ken, Francie and Kieran together.

Mr Brolly:

A museums policy would hope to widen the appeal of all museums — David spoke of broadening and the notion of social strata — but there is also a regional aspect. The Ulster Museum occasionally had themed exhibitions with related materials. Would it be an idea to have region-based exhibitions, for example, for west Tyrone? However, it might be difficult to get enough material.

Mr McCarthy:

Tim said that it would be useful for the Committee to consider museums in Bilbao. Are you suggesting that this Committee might be interested in seeing those museums, or museums anywhere else, in order to bring the Committee to the right conclusions for this inquiry?

Mr Cooke:

Far be it from me to authorise trips for the Committee. Nevertheless, it would be helpful, in competitive terms and for setting out a long-term vision for our cultural infrastructure, if the Committee explored how that vision is manifested elsewhere. That could be done in a number of ways. Going to Dublin for two hours will provide a sense of the extent to which the national museums and galleries are embedded in the heart of the nation, and the extent to which their profile, funding and roles are regarded as important.

Going to Liverpool — the European Capital of Culture — will give a sense of the linchpin that cultural investment is alongside the commercial infrastructure developments that are taking place. For example, an £85 million museum of Liverpool life is being built. Furthermore, the National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh has had a £50 million refurbishment.

Therefore, the bar in the British Isles is being raised all the time, and people are pursuing integrated strategies for development with cultural infrastructure at their heart, and that are linked to many other strategies, which is why I made the point about cross-departmental planning.

Bilbao had a long-term vision that involved the various strata of government which has resulted in a world-beating site, and which has led to wider social and economic regional regeneration. That is the short answer to Mr McCarthy’s question.

With regard to Mr Brolly’s question, museums policy must be systematic. There is a particular role for national museums and a particular role for local museums. I would approach the issue in a slightly different way. It is important that National Museums is not simply “super-serving” the greater Belfast area, but that it has appropriate strategies in place for providing a service to all areas of this place. That would not necessarily happen through regionally based exhibitions, but rather through outreach programmes and working in conjunction with transport authorities, schools, tourist boards, local councils and local museums to try to get more strategic synergy in what we do.

In relation to Ken Robinson’s question, it depends on the circumstances, costs and capacity at different times. We have intervened on various occasions with rescue missions, only to regret it later, because we got criticised for not properly maintaining, displaying and interpreting some of the objects that we acquired. Therefore, it is not simply a matter of saving or rescuing objects — it is the whole sense of obligation when we acquire them, for instance, looking after them properly and being able to interpret them. Those are always factors to consider when deciding what to take into our collections at short notice.

Mr K Robinson:

Is there a facility to do that?

Mr Cooke:

It is possible, but it depends very much on the individual circumstances.

Mr McNarry:

Could you find a place for Stephen Nolan in a museum — perhaps in a glass case? Is that policy, or am I straying away from it?

The Chairperson:

That is your individual position David; I would not challenge Stephen Nolan in such a manner.

Mr McNarry:

You are a Stephen Nolan babe.

The Chairperson:

Thank you for your presentation and for the lengthy question-and-answer session.

Mr Cooke:

Thank you for your time.

The Chairperson:

I invite the representative of Craigavon Borough Council, Ms Elaine Hill, to make a presentation to the Committee. Good morning, Elaine; you are welcome. Please make an opening statement, after which the Committee will ask questions.

Ms Elaine Hill (Craigavon Borough Council):

Thank you for the opportunity to attend the Committee. I am the curator and museum development officer of Craigavon Museum Services, which is part of Craigavon Borough Council. I manage the museum service and its collections, and develop and deliver programmes and activities to make the museum accessible.

Craigavon Museum Services operates on three sites in the Craigavon Borough Council area. Our main base is Waterside House on Oxford Island. We also operate the Barn Museum at Tannaghmore, and Moneypenny’s Lockhouse on the Newry canal. Two of those museums have submitted an application for accreditation. The museum service is registered and offers an outreach programme to schools. Our collection reflects the local social and industrial history of the Craigavon area.

I welcome the opportunity to be involved in this inquiry, and I am pleased that the Committee will consider the views of local museums. Our museum service is relatively new — it was established in 1993, and we are currently in a period of development. Craigavon Borough Council is exploring and considering the redevelopment of our museums under the theme of the inland waterways, which is important to the area. It is useful to be involved in the wider discussion on the development of museums policy.

The development of a museums policy would benefit Craigavon Museum Services. A policy that sets out a clear vision and goals for museums would enable them to see and chart their development within the sector. It will also enable them to ascertain where they link in with other Departments. It would be particularly relevant for us to find out where we should fit in and work with the education and tourism sectors. A clear vision and framework for museums, supported by strategies through which they might be delivered, would strengthen the sector.

Three key areas are relevant and important for museums: collections management and development; learning access; and workforce development. Strategically developing those three areas would provide museums with the infrastructure and resources to deliver services to a high standard. That would also enable them to progress towards a shared vision.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you for your presentation. In your written submission to the Committee, you claim that the absence of a Province-wide policy makes it difficult to make plans. That may form half of the answer to my question. Do you consider that the lack of a museums policy has been detrimental to your organisation? If so, what impact has that had on your work?

Ms Hill:

The absence of a museums policy has been detrimental to our efforts, because it is difficult to make strategic plans without one. We are a local museums service, but we work with organisations across the sector.

It is important to have an overall vision for development — particularly for smaller museums — so that they can buy into it and plan their development in the context of other services. It is important for local museums to be part of a bigger picture, so that they can plan strategically, avoid overlapping and duplicating services, and make the most of the services available.

It is important to have an overall vision for development in the sector, with clear aims and objectives and mechanisms in place to deliver those strategies in clear areas of work such as learning and collections development. Lack of a formal policy has resulted in there being no mechanism for measuring the impact of museums in Northern Ireland, and no means of comparing our museums with others in the UK and across the sector.

Mr K Robinson:

I wish to refer to the geography of the Craigavon museum. There are three sites: Waterside House is presumably at the balancing lakes, but where are the Barn Museum and Moneypenny’s Lockhouse? Are they in the same area, or are they scattered across the borough?

Ms Hill:

Our sites are relatively close to one another. Waterside House is on Oxford Island, although it is a part of a bigger complex. The Barn Museum is in Tannaghmore Gardens, which is a few miles from Oxford Island, on a site managed by Craigavon Borough Council. Moneypenny’s Lock House is on the Newry Canal, a few miles outside Portadown.

Mr K Robinson:

There is, then, a critical mass in that area. That is important.

Lord Browne:

You state that it would be beneficial for your organisation to link up with central Government, but do you think that councils are the right body to run museums? Belfast City Council plays no part in that.

Ms Hill:

Delivering services locally works in the context that the museum service can deliver activities for local schools and communities and engage with them. The service that we run can be organised through the local council. However, wider development, for example, that of inland waterways, is relevant not just to our area, but to council areas across Northern Ireland. When developing collections locally through councils, it would be more beneficial to have input and influence from other places to inform development, rather than develop in isolation.

Mr D Bradley:

Good morning. To what extent should a museums policy direct local museums?

Local museums are very much involved in day-to-day service delivery. A museums policy should provide the museums sector with a longer-term vision of aims and objectives. Given that museums generally exist for a long time and are there to safeguard collections for the future, it is important to consider long-term factors. A joined-up approach to development would give local museums an idea of best practice, inform them about aims and objectives, and allow them to tailor established strategies to local needs.

Furthermore, such museums would benefit from being involved in something bigger: a joined-up approach to development matters that affect all museums. They all have collections and provide learning opportunities. Therefore, it would be beneficial to be involved in the bigger picture. Should a museums policy set demarcation lines between local and wider-interest matters?

Ms Hill:

In Craigavon, we have been focused on our local remit; however, over and above that, the nature of the museums service means that skills in several areas, such as collections development and management, could be shared. Certain museums may be good in particular areas — they might have good learning programmes or workforce-development programmes — so it might benefit local museums to share best practice with others.

Mr Shannon:

I am sorry for missing your initial presentation. You said that you manage three sites. Given that costs are obviously a key issue for you, and although I appreciate that combining the three sites into one may not be possible, do you intend to do so?

You mentioned a waterways museum. When the recommendations from the review of public administration are implemented, and the three councils in Banbridge, Armagh and Craigavon are amalgamated, will you want to act specifically with regard to museums, and does your call for a waterways museum perhaps signal what you wish to do?

I am conscious that we are attempting to galvanise our ideas on where we want to go; nevertheless, costs will obviously be a factor.

Ms Hill:

On your first point about the three sites, buildings on two sites are listed, and the buildings are an integrated part of the visitor experience. Therefore, to bring them together on one site would not be practical.

Our main site is on Oxford Island, which is where we have our collections storage. When developing that site, we will want to reflect all aspects of local history; for example, the linen industry and Craigavon’s development. Although waterways is a major theme, we have yet to address that issue. Moreover, a waterways museum would not exist in isolation, and a lot more local history would be represented on the other sites.

As a result of the review of public administration, Armagh and Banbridge councils will join Craigavon. Therefore, a policy to develop the services that could be delivered throughout the three council areas would benefit us.

Mr Shannon:

I am conscious of the fact that representatives from Armagh City and District Council will be making a presentation later —

The Chairperson:

That will not happen today, Jim. I will explain why later.

Mr Shannon:

My apologies — that was on the agenda. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to hear their ideas for the future. Have you had any discussions with representatives of Armagh City and District Council?

Ms Hill:

No, we have not held any discussions with Armagh City and District Council. In some respects, we have similar collections, although the collections are distinguished by the fact that Armagh’s is stronger in archaeology and art, whereas, we cover more social, local and industrial history.

Mr Brolly:

Your theme is inland waterways, and you have already acquired objects. Could your facilities be expanded into a museum without walls where other inland waterways activities could be addressed, and where people could get involved in activities on canals, etc? A new museums policy could consider the general theme of museums without walls.

Ms Hill:

We are based on Oxford Island, where we work closely with people in other sections of leisure services, such as recreation and sports development, arts development and the staff who deal with the marina, so cross-working is already taking place. We also work across councils with the tourism officer and deal with economic and community development. In looking at the bigger picture, that is something that we aim to achieve.

The Chairperson:

Thank you for your presentation and for answering questions. Your comments will be taken into consideration.

The next group of witness represents the Somme Association. Lord Browne earlier declared an interest and Mr Shannon also wishes to declare an interest.

Mr Shannon:

I am a member of the Somme Association.

The Chairperson:

I welcome Dr Ian Adamson, whose face is familiar around here. I now hand over to the Somme Association and invite Dr Adamson to introduce his colleagues and make a presentation.

Dr Ian Adamson (The Somme Association):

I am the chairman of the Somme Association, Mr Ian Vincent is the curatorial adviser and spokesman on museums policy, and Carol Walker, who is my right-hand person, is director of the Somme Association and does all the work.

The Somme Association was formed in 1990 as part of the cross-community scheme Farset to give tribute not only to the sons of Ulster, who had fought in the First World War, but to the soldiers of Ireland. The theme was to refurbish the Ulster Tower at Thiepval and to liaise with those responsible for Helen’s Tower at Clandeboye in County Down.

Helen’s Tower was built in 1867 as a gamekeeper’s residence. The contemporary Lord Dufferin refurbished the tower as a tribute to his mother, who was dying of cancer, so that she could bring her friends — mostly poets — to the tower to enjoy days of respite and peace.

The Ulster Tower at Thiepval was built by public subscription in 1921 in honour of the men of the 36th ( Ulster) Division and their comrades in Ireland in general as a lasting tribute. It is the national war memorial of Northern Ireland and falls under the auspices of the Department of Finance and Personnel. The Somme Association has built a heritage centre at the Ulster Tower, and a heritage centre, which is now a museum, in the Ards.

The museum is located there because the 36th ( Ulster) Division trained nearby before going to France. The association holds annual commemoration services on 1 July for the 36th ( Ulster) Division and in September for the men of the16th (Irish) Division. We have also gone to Gallipoli to commemorate the 10th (Irish) Division.

The 16th (Irish) Division is of particular note these days because it included the 47th Brigade, who, more or less, represented the contribution from Derry and Belfast to the National Volunteers. In commemorating the soldiers who fought in the First World War, we recite our declaration:

“Sons of Ulster, soldiers of Ireland, do not be anxious. The war is over, both here and in your beloved Ireland. The Western Front is no more and Ireland at last is at peace with herself and with her people.”

“A fheara Uladh agus a shaighdiúirí na hÉireann, ná bíodh imní oraibh. Tá an cogadh thart, ní amháin san áit seo ach i bhur dtír féin, in Éirinn. Níl an fronta thiar ann níos mó, agus faoi dheireadh tá tír na hÉireann faoi shíocháin léi féin agus lena pobal.”

The declaration is made because our objective is to bring together, in contemporary Ulster and Ireland, the two sides that fought in the First World War. The association is more than the operator of a museum — although that is a central part of our work — it is a commemorative organisation. That is why we appreciate the contribution to our funding from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and we want that to continue. We also, incidentally, appreciate the continuous help that we receive from the Northern Ireland Museums Council, and we support that body in its present form.

I have brought with me the first issue of our journal ‘Battle Lines’ from 1990, which was the time of the rededication of the Ulster Tower at Thiepval. I have a copy for each Committee member. They are very rare — so do not sell them on eBay as soon as you get them. [Laughter.]

The picture on the front cover is of our former president, HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, who was the mother of the Duke of Gloucester. He was the Earl of Ulster, and he had a strong connection with, and interest in, Ireland, particularly Ulster. The journal includes a message from our president and details of the last of the veterans. It includes contributions from the famous characters who were council representatives in 1990, such as Aldermen Nigel Dodds, Hugh Smyth and Fred Cobain — who shall remain nameless. [Laughter.]

Also in that issue is the then Mayor of Derry, Tony Carlin — and we were honoured to have Mayor Gerard Diver of Derry and four mayors from various parties join us at our commemoration service at Guillemont just a couple of weeks ago. The 1990 journal details that event, and the battles of Ginchy and Guillemont, which were nationalist Ireland’s Battle of the Somme. There is also a small dissertation on the Somme and Helen’s Tower. I would like all Committee members to have a copy, and I will hand them out at the end of our presentation.

I now hand over to Mr Ian Vincent to continue, because I have spoken for far too long.

Mr Ian Vincent (The Somme Association):

I will try to answer the written questions that were submitted to us by the Committee as quickly as possible. I have written responses with me, which I will read out, if I may. I assume that that is the format that is being followed by most people who come before the Committee.

Question 1 asks whether the lack of a formal departmental museum policy has a detrimental impact. My answer is that it does have a detrimental impact. The main detriment has been the isolation of National Museums from the rest of Province’s museums. A suitable policy would have brought about the circulation of national collections, along with professional advice on such matters as conservation, exhibit design and marketing — all of which would have greatly benefited the entire museum field throughout Northern Ireland.

On question 3, my answer is, obviously, that I believe that the effect has been detrimental. I have already explained why. Question 4 asks about the efficacy of current departmental guidelines. Those guidelines have been insufficient to force National Museums out of what amounts to years of navel gazing — looking inward. The guidelines only hint broadly at helping vis-à-vis support for district council museums, etc. However, there is no directive that stems from a policy to stop that inward looking. The guidelines are merely an operating manual for National Museums, not a policy document that covers the provision of Northern Ireland’s heritage through its material culture.

Question 5 asks which aspects of the current guidelines have worked well and whether they have any gaps. A strong directive to follow up policy should be added to the guidelines in which National Museums would exert leadership in the field and make its specialised staff’s expertise available to others. The question asks what the Somme Association’s policies are. First, to provide the best possible service to people in the community who are interested in our special subject area, and, secondly, to do that while following the highest professional standards in collections management and exhibits in accordance with the national standards that are promoted and monitored by the Northern Ireland Museums Council — to which Dr Adamson has already referred. The Somme Museum is a fully accredited museum under the UK guidelines. We are extremely proud to have achieved that.

Question 7 asks how the museum is funded. The question concerns the efficiency of an institution in raising its own supporting funding — by that I mean the proportion of earned income versus tax-based grants. The association’s director will provide the Committee with those details. I shall hand over to Carol, who will provide some background on the association’s funding.

Mrs Carol Walker (The Somme Association):

During the past several years, the Somme Heritage Centre has received £30,000 from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and £37,000 from the community relations unit (CRU) of OFMDFM. Neither of those grants has increased with inflation during the past eight years. That amounts to £67,000 of funding.

The £30,000 from DCAL goes towards the operational costs of the Somme Heritage Centre. The £37,000 from the community relations unit must be apportioned to two posts — two members of staff. Therefore, out of that £67,000, £30,000 is spent on operational costs. We receive £5,000 from Ards Borough Council, which must be allocated towards marketing the heritage centre. North Down Borough Council matches that funding of £5,000, which must be allocated towards a project in order for us to be able to draw it down, and does not, therefore, go towards operational costs. In total, we receive £77,000 of grant funding from the councils and Government Departments.

The figures that I am about to cite are from our draft accounts to March 2008. The figure for admissions is £29,226. We have just over 25,000 visitors each year, 6,000 of whom are schoolchildren who visit as part of our education policy.

In 2007-08, the cafe and shop generated an income of £21,336, fundraising events generated £8,500, and donations amounted to £7,188. The Somme Association generates some money itself through an extensive worldwide membership that ranges as far as Australia, Canada and Hong Kong. Those members are expatriates or people with a genuine interest in the First World War. The Somme Association puts in an income, from its overall income, of £20,000 towards the operational costs of the Somme Heritage Centre. That represents a further total of £86,250 that the museum generates internally, which makes a grand total of £163,250 generated at the centre. That total mirrors our outgoings, and, therefore, it costs, on average, approximately £170,000 to run the Somme Heritage Centre and to pay the museum staff.

As the Committee can see, the budget is extremely tight. We do not have sufficient funding to organise exhibitions or one-off events, and we rely heavily on organisations such as the Northern Ireland Museums Council, the Big Lottery Fund and the National Lottery to supply funding for exhibitions or projects. It is necessary to compete for that funding and, as everyone knows, completing application forms — especially for one-off projects — is time-consuming.

Mr Brolly:

I am surprised that you do not receive a contribution from the Irish Government.

Mrs Walker:

In 2008, we received a one-off donation from the Irish Government of £13,000 — approximately €20,000 — to update the audio-visual equipment that forms part of our tour.

Mr Vincent:

The Committee requested information about our knowledge of museums outside Northern Ireland. As the museum’s curatorial adviser, I have outside knowledge. I worked in the museum sector in Canada for over 20 years, and, in the mid-1970s, I was the Ulster Museum’s first education officer. I have a master’s degree in museology from the University of Toronto and the Royal Ontario Museum. Furthermore, I am a former president of the Ontario Museum Association and a board member of the Canadian Museums Association. As president of the Ontario Museum Association, I led a team that negotiated a museum grants scheme with the Government of Ontario, through which various levels of grants were paid to museums in a three-tiered system that incorporated provincial museums, municipal museums and local historical society museums. It was interesting to devise a scheme and a funding route.

The Committee wanted to hear about research and evidence on balanced funding. Question 7 asks about the balance of funding from the public and private sectors.

That is a misunderstanding. All museums need grant support to survive. As Carol Walker said — using our museum as an example — they do so through earned revenues, admission charges, shop income and events. Where possible, we find corporate support for special exhibitions, publications, and so on. In my many years’ experience here and in Canada, the private sector does not provide operating funds — it supplies one-off grants for publications.

Question 9 addresses museum policy. The world is full of suitable policy models, a proper survey of which would determine which one could be used in Northern Ireland. There is no need to reinvent the wheel in this instance. The Committee should establish a panel of suitably qualified representatives from museums — not just National Museums — and Government to review existing models and make a recommendation that explains the rationale for its selection.

There are, in my opinion several, key elements for a successful museums policy. First, a clear mission statement as to the goals and objectives of the policy must be decided, and it must provide material and non-material culture to the citizens of Northern Ireland. From that, a policy leading to an appropriate museum structure or provision for the Province would then be developed.

Secondly, the policy must cover the governance of all museums — not just the national museums but the local government and independent museums, of which we are one. Furthermore, the national museums should be directed to assist other qualified museums and take a leadership role, which I noted previously.

Thirdly, all museums that are to be funded must have or be made to achieve accredited status. I have no doubt that the Committee will have heard from NIMC on that issue. The notion that county museums should be the only framework for funding outside of the national museums must be reconsidered. Local government boundaries are about to change and it remains to be seen who will referee how those county museums will fare.

Finally, it should be possible for museums other than national and county museums to receive Government grants. Special-purpose museums — such as the Somme Heritage Centre and others in the Province — that have a proven public track record should also be considered for funding.

The Chairperson:

Thank you. The Committee is grateful for your presentation. A number of members have indicated that they wish to speak, including two who have declared an interest.

Lord Browne:

Thank you. I declare an interest as a trustee of the Somme Association. I am aware that all three of the witnesses have considerable experience and expertise in running a very successful museum.

Mr Vincent has spoken of the fact that he has had a lifelong career in museums and has a lot of experience from his time working in Canada. Do you believe that, in drawing up a museum policy, this Committee should draw on the experience of other countries such as Canada? If so, how do you suggest that we go about that?

Furthermore, you obviously have considerable experience in this field. How can we harness people such as you who have experience in drawing up museums policies outside Northern Ireland? What methods could we employ to do that?

Mr Vincent:

As I suggested to the Committee, I would be happy to share any experience that I have. Indeed, while working to put together a funding model with the Government in Ontario, I travelled to Germany and brought back some suitable methods and models.

There are models that can be brought back to this Committee with recommendations. In my opinion, any panel must have experienced museum staff sitting on it, and they should be comprised from various levels of museum operations, not just the national museums. The Ministry of Culture in Ontario has two former museum employees who had been in the field for a number of years before joining the Civil Service. They provided the filter through which a lot of museum policy was passed. Therefore, it was hard to wipe the eye of the Government as they had their own experts operating the museums. They acted as policemen and monitored what was rational and reasonable. That system worked well, and I recommend the Committee to consider something of that nature.

Lord Browne:

Carol, the centre receives funding from two different bodies in Northern Ireland. Do you find any difficulties with that? Furthermore, do you feel that there should be a centralised body in the Government here? Moreover, what benefits would that bring to your organisation?

Mrs Walker:

Definitely. As a small organisation with an extremely small staff, receiving funding from two Departments causes us a major headache. That is because both Departments have a different way of drawing down and verifying funding. Additionally, the funding for the Somme Heritage Centre is received in arrears and the museum is paid after the event. As a result, the museum must operate on a constant overdraft. Therefore, because of the system and the delay in the drawing down of funds, we have to pay £5,000 or £6,000 in interest from the £67,000 that we may receive at the end of the financial year. Therefore, it would benefit us and probably other small museums to have one centralised grant.

Mr Shannon:

One aspect of this inquiry is to ascertain how our rich history can be brought together. Is there a need for a museum such as yours to hold the Province’s military artefacts and history? You mentioned relationships with people in France and Turkey; do you have partnerships with museums outside Northern Ireland that could enhance your museum and perhaps theirs? Finally, should local councils be more involved in funding? I ask that having declared an interest as a member of Ards Borough Council.

Dr Adamson:

There is a need for a museum of the history of war and of peace. The Somme Association has connections with the Collins Barracks in Dublin and with the Imperial War Museum. The National Museum of Ireland has lent us material for an exhibition at the Somme Heritage Centre. That is an important aspect of our work. There is a need for a larger museum structure that is dedicated to the history of various wars, particularly the First World War and the Second World War.

We can always do with help from local councils. We have had a close relationship with councils over the years, and we have a Somme Advisory Council which seeks representatives from each of the councils. We also have good relations with councils down South. We do, therefore, have a North/South relationship.

There is much still to do. When I was in France a week ago, I spoke to a lot of people from England who were representing the Salford Pals, who fought on the right flank of the 36 th ( Ulster) Division, and who were wiped out. The Salford Pals history covers 1914-16. They were wiped out and that is why the 36 th ( Ulster) Division got into trouble on 1 July 1916.

I would like to build a relationship with the Imperial War Museum, which includes the Imperial War Museum North in Manchester. That is a wonderful institution, and it is one that we could replicate. However, that is all down to money, which, of course, is freely available. [Laughter.]

The Somme Association furbished the Ulster Tower at Thiepval and recently refurbished it. We bought Thiepval Wood — the Bois d’Authuille — which is the area around the Ulster Tower that the 36 th ( Ulster) Division advanced from. We would like, with Lady Dufferin’s good graces, to open up Helen’s Tower Wood so that people could come from this new council — North Down and Ards.

Mr McCarthy:

Ards and North Down.

Dr Adamson:

I suggested Dal Fiatach, the ancient kingdom of Ards, but it was not taken up. In any case, when Helen’s Tower Wood opens, there will be an archaeological project in the area because there are training trenches that can be excavated in the way that we excavated trenches at Thiepval.

Another link to tourism that we would like to build on is that between JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis. JRR Tolkien was in the Lancashire Fusiliers and he was at Thiepval Wood, which was where he first got the inspiration to write ‘The Lord of the Rings’.

Tolkien lost all of his friends in the First World War along the battlefields of the Somme — at La Boisselle and at Souaste to the north of Bouzincourt. He had a real interest, therefore, in the Somme. Much of ‘The Lord of the Rings’ is a characterisation of the Battle of the Somme. Having lost his friends, he made new ones, the chief one being CS Lewis who was wounded at the Battle of Arras — the second battle of the Somme — in which, sadly, the 16 th (Irish) Division was almost completely wiped out.

We would like tribute to be paid continually to the 16 th (Irish) Division, because it contained people such as Tom Kettle and Francis Ledwidge, who would have been among the greatest poets ever produced by Ireland had they not been killed in that war. Such men went there to fight for the rights of small nations, and that may be considered an essential part of the development of modern Irish republicanism. Similarly, tribute is due to the 36 th ( Ulster) Division which, because of its sacrifice, was responsible for the birth of modern Ulster.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you for your presentation. I could listen to you talking about this particular subject all day. I congratulate you for the work that you have done at the Somme Heritage Centre in Conlig. There is also an excellent facility at Cloughey. I go there on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon on my bicycle. It is just far enough to travel to and relax in the garden of remembrance. It is brilliant — well done.

What was the most detrimental impact on Northern Ireland by not having a museums policy? To follow Lord Browne’s point on Ontario, Canada — do you think it might benefit our deliberations if we were to visit Canada? [Laughter.]

I am being serious. We want to do this right, and to do that, we need to get out there.

Dr Adamson:

In a word, yes.

Mr McNarry:

What, on a bicycle?

Dr Adamson:

I will leave that up to the Committee.

Mr McNarry:

As long as we can all go with him.

The Chairperson:

I think, Ian that you deserve recognition as an honorary member.

Mr Vincent:

I think that the problem was that at the time it was expedient to produce guidelines for civil servants on using taxpayers’ funds responsibly to fund the Ulster Museum. That then grew to the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, and then the whole of the Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland, so it is very focused on that. Museum provision in a certain locality — the province of Ontario, or Northern Ireland — should be more intricate than that. There should be various levels of museums, and the question is how to develop a policy.

First, the Government have got to decide broadly — on paper, as it were — what a cultural policy for Northern Ireland would be, which would be a great mind-bending exercise for people. Following that, one expression of that is that a policy or mechanism is needed in order to agree what would constitute a legitimate museum to be the subject of Government funding, and how that would come about. A series of issues needs to be addressed. However, such issues have not been addressed.

I hate to say this, but it may be cheaper to fly somebody over from Canada to advise the Committee. I have contacts in the Ontario Ministry who would be more than happy to guide the Committee. I know that I should not say that, but there you go. Perhaps you have to see the various tiers of museums to understand the difference between them and how that difference is worked out, but it is the one model that I am familiar with that worked well, was negotiated, and as far as I know, continues. I think that you should examine such an example in order to get a broader perspective of museums in the Province.

Mr McCartney:

That is a good example of an independent museum. I have a couple of questions for Mrs Walker about the figures. How many full-time staff do you have? What are your opening hours?

Mrs Walker:

We operate with five full-time staff, and our opening hours are seasonal. During the winter months, we open on Monday to Thursday from 10.00 am to 4.00 pm. Those opening hours are geared towards accommodating schools, because we are more likely to have school visits on Mondays to Thursdays. Three staff work on Fridays, but we are not open to the public. That is when we get work done, otherwise it is difficult to get anything done in a working museum. In the past couple of years, however, we have changed our policy, and we open now on demand. We will open the museum for Friday or evening visits for groups of more than 25 people. In the summer months, we open seven days a week: 10.00 am to 5.00 pm from Monday to Friday; and 12.00 noon to 5.00 pm on Saturdays and Sundays.

Over the years, we have considered our operational costs and opened the museum accordingly. There is no point in the museum being open at a time when there are no visitors. We have to keep our costs down and consider such expenses as heating and lighting costs. The opening hours are geared around our funding.

Previous business reports have stated that we should have longer opening hours during the week and at weekends, but we require more funding to do that — it would not be worth our while otherwise.

Mr McCartney:

You have 29,000 admissions a year. Do you receive a fixed amount each year, or do you apply to DCAL and OFMDFM for more money?

Mrs Walker:

It is a fixed amount, and we have been told that that is all we are getting. It has not increased over the past eight years or more, but it has changed slightly. The DCAL funding has been provided for a long time, but the CRU/OFMDFM funding changed slightly. We used to receive funding from the Community Relations Council, but, eventually, we did not fit into the category for which it had funding, so the funding was changed and CRU now provide the funding.

Mr McCartney:

Do they say that you are receiving the maximum amount possible? Or is it the case that there is simply no more money available?

Mrs Walker:

It is not there.

Mr D Bradley:

Tá céad míle fáilte romhaibh.  Fair fa ye.  Ba deas an ráiteas Gaeilge a chloisteáil uait fosta. It was nice to hear that quotation in Irish.

Mr Vincent, what type of support and direction would a museums policy give to a museum such as the Somme Heritage Centre?

Mr Vincent:

In the 1970s, I was the education officer in the Ulster Museum. Staff there hoped to get the museum more out into the Province’s collections. It did not happen, and, disappointed, I returned to Canada, because I thought that we had the ability to improve the quality of the Province’s museums through our expertise. However, National Museums got caught up in its own structural issues, amongst other matters.

In the Ontario model, the Civil Service had some museum expertise to help referee on those matters and to decide on what were or were not reasonable requests. The province of Alberta chose to use its Museums Council — the equivalent of the Northern Ireland Museums Council — as a vehicle to distribute funds. It received a block grant, and its job was to allocate money and to adjudicate, because it was also enforcing museum standards. There are, therefore, various methods of doing this.

In Ontario, the Government distributed money directly. They sent it to museum boards rather than to district councils in order to prevent bits being nibbled off grants on their way to museums. Such issues are universal across Governments and funding institutions. Therefore, various models can be adopted. Perhaps this Committee examines a variety of them, has someone with sufficient knowledge to consider their respective strengths and weaknesses, then take a view of what will or will not work. That would provide a broad perspective to the museum provision for the Province.

Mr K Robinson:

The Committee should take up the issue of retrospective funding in order to obtain the maximum bangs for bucks. I congratulate the witnesses on their presentation. It has been good, to the point, full of enthusiasm and very helpful to the Committee. We have not had to ask questions in order to get answers, which was helpful. [Laughter.]

On a personal note, I thank Ian for his delivery in Irish. It has been a long time since he spoke in my ear in Irish. As ever, it was perfect, spot on and music to the ear, unlike some of the stuff that we are sometimes assaulted with here. Dominic is excluded from that. He is improving all the time. [Laughter.]

On the point of experience for schoolchildren, I took my 4 ft 2 in tall grandson to the Somme Heritage Centre, and the recruiting sergeant grabbed him. The impression that that has on children is fantastic and really brings home the message as intended.

Has the financial issue been teased out enough? Is there some work to be done between you and other agencies? Tour ships are coming into Belfast more frequently and I am sure that their passengers are fed up coming to Stormont and other such places. Are the guides aware of your existence? Do you make them aware? Are you making contacts with cruise organisers and with Belfast City Council in order to create a potential stream of funding and interest? At Conlig, the Somme Heritage Centre is well within reach of a bus leaving Belfast Harbour. Have you teased that out; or is it an area that you will consider?

Mrs Walker:

Among our main problems, as I mentioned earlier, is that our marketing budget from Ards Borough Council amounts to £5,000, for which we are grateful. We cannot go one penny over that. Any overspend on marketing comes out of our operational costs.

Marketing aimed at tour ships and their like requires money — glossy brochures and so on are required. We have tried, but we cannot really sell ourselves and that is something that the board and I have been concerned about over the years. One of our main problems is that when it comes to marketing the Somme Heritage Centre our hands are tied. An adequate marketing budget would ensure that everybody knows where we are.

Another of our problems is that people — because of where we are based — do not know that we exist. They do not know that the museum is on their doorstep. That is because £5,000 is not enough to fully market it.

Quite a lot of our cross-border marketing is conducted through the North/South body, Heritage Ireland, which in turn markets the Somme Heritage Centre in places such as Canada and America — markets that we are trying to break into. However, that costs £2,500 a year — half of our designated budget; and that is just on cross-border marketing.

Mr K Robinson:

The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and all of Belfast City Council’s facilities are not far away; surely you can link up with those in order to maximise the tourist experience.

Mr McCarthy:

Chairperson, do we not have an organisation called the Northern Ireland Tourist Board?

Mr K Robinson:

That is a good point.

The Chairperson:

That was a rhetorical question if there was ever one.

Mrs Walker:

Unfortunately the Northern Ireland Tourist Board charges for anything it does, and we cannot afford to pay the charges.

The Chairperson:

I am delighted to see Dr Ian Adamson back, because he was a member of this Committee in a previous manifestation. Am I right?

Dr Adamson:

Yes.

The Chairperson:

I also thank Ian Vincent and Carol Walker for attending.

Dr Adamson:

The Chairperson and Committee are welcome to visit the Somme Heritage Centre anytime. On Mr McCarthy’s point, if you want to come to France you can visit the Thiepval Wood.

Mr McCarthy:

I have been there. It is brilliant — excellent.

The Chairperson:

We have noted that invitation, thank you.

Dr Adamson:

Go raibh mile maith agat. Lang may yer lum reek wi’ ither Fowk’s Coal.

The Chairperson:

Do you have any spare tickets for the match on Sunday? [Laughter.]

Armagh City and District Council has decided not to give oral evidence to the inquiry. Jim, that is of particular interest to you. Council representatives contacted the Committee on Monday to say that, as the council does not run a museum, it would not be appropriate to give evidence. The council feels that it is more appropriate for the Committee to hear from organisations that are involved in the operation of museums. However, it is keen to be kept informed about the outcome of the inquiry and any policy that the Department subsequently develops.

Mr Shannon:

Does Armagh City and District Council not have any opinion? I am curious to hear its view on museum and tourism policy. Does the Council want to do it alone, or should it be part of a partnership? Can the Committee write to the council to find out its opinion? It did say that its presentation would be a written submission — does the Committee have a written submission?

The Chairperson:

The written submission is included in the members’ packs.

I welcome the representatives from Fermanagh District Council. Committee members have been provided with a copy of the submission. Present are Ms Sarah McHugh, who is the manager of the museum services, and Ms Bronagh Cleary, who is the museum development officer.

Ms S McHugh (Fermanagh District Council):

Fermanagh County Museum is housed in Enniskillen Castle and shares its premises with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum . The whole complex is managed by the Northern Ireland Environment Agency. We work in partnership with those bodies and Roads Service on the castle committee to manage the site.

Fermanagh County Museum is run by Fermanagh District Council. In addition to mixed collections, we host exhibitions and events throughout the year and have a series of audience-development projects. Much of our work is done in partnership, whether that be with the other museums on site, through our cross-border project with Cavan County Museum or the Collecting Cultures programme with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum and Derry City Council’s Heritage and Museum Service. The requirement for a clear museums policy presents itself, particularly when we work in partnership. The importance of the way that museums can dovetail with, and enhance, other policies, such as social inclusion or tourism, is underlined by strategies such as ‘Destination Fermanagh — The Vision for Tourism 2006-2016’.

We have benefited a lot from the support of the Northern Ireland Museums Council, which has helped in collection care, developing access and enhancing our collections. Therefore, a policy is required that encourages museums to share knowledge about their developing collections and expertise, which will develop the whole sector into a dynamic series of different organisations for the twenty-first century. During a period of flux, it is important that museums are clear about their vision so that they can develop on what has already been achieved.

Museums must be clear about their starting positions to ensure that they are not working alone in a vacuum and are able to make comparisons to similar organisations. Our service should be able to assess where it stands in order to develop; benchmark against similar organisations in order to measure success; dovetail with other institutions and, therefore, have a wider remit to enhance museums in different areas; have a strong, clear vision of how museums can develop; and build on previous success.

Mr McCarthy:

Thanks very much for your presentation. Do you think that the absence of a museums policy has been detrimental to your work? If so, will you give an example?

Ms S McHugh:

Rather than saying that x, y or z could have been achieved, it should be measured by acknowledging that museums still have a huge amount of unfulfilled potential. There is huge untapped potential in the development of partnerships between museums and other organisations. For example, the partnership project that we are about to begin with the Derry City Council’s Heritage and Museum Service will compare existing collections and assess the strengths and weaknesses of collections and expertise. That process would be much easier if there was a museums policy.

Mr McCarthy:

Therefore, the sooner the museums policy is introduced the better?

Ms S McHugh:

Yes, absolutely.

Mr Shannon:

Some people, such as me, from the east of the Province, feel that the Northern Ireland Tourist Board is keen to promote the west of the Province. When people land at Belfast International Airport at Aldergrove or get off the ferry at Larne, they are handed a brochure telling them to visit Fermanagh. Has the Tourist Board helped your museum?

The Chairperson:

Your analysis is a stranger to me.

Mr Shannon:

I said that it was my opinion. I am curious whether you think that the Tourist Board has a significant role in promoting your museum. Does the museum have a partnership with Fermanagh District Council and, if so, how does it work?

Ms S McHugh:

Fermanagh does not have a signature project, and it could be claimed that that is a disadvantage. However, the Northern Ireland Tourist Board has recently supported the redevelopment of the oldest part of Enniskillen Castle, the castle keep. Therefore, there is a mixed picture and people have different perspectives on the matter.

The museum works closely with Fermanagh District Council and its policies, such as the ‘Destination Fermanagh’ strategy’. The museum receives a lot of support and tries to ensure that its policy and direction fits in with the county’s overall tourism strategy. It is important that that tourism strategy highlights that we are the heritage gateway to Fermanagh.

Mr D Bradley:

What type of direction and support would you expect from a museums policy?

Ms S McHugh:

It is something that the various stakeholders should feed into at the beginning so that a framework can be produced. Once there has been wide consultation in the sector, and everyone feels that they are involved, the strategy would give an overarching vision that could fit into a plan and that could be used for reference. It would give greater strength in showing people what direction they should take, and it would enable grant funding and the drawing down of financial support in order to achieve certain aims. Rather than firefighting and responding, a policy should demonstrate proactivity and give direction.

Mr D Bradley:

Do you feel that it should be a bottom-up policy?

Ms S McHugh:

The sector and other interested parties must first have some sort of draft policy — provided by a steering group — that it can comment on. Everyone would feel that they have had a chance to contribute, and if they felt that some aspect of the policy did not represent them, they would have had the chance to say so from the beginning.

Mr K Robinson:

Given that fact that you are the gateway for so many of overseas visitors — particularly those from EU countries — what steps do you take to ensure that they can appreciate fully their visit? Is there a language facility or are the exhibits explained in two or three languages?

Ms S McHugh:

They are, and that is important to us, particularly over the summer when the largest proportion of visitors come from abroad. We have multi-lingual interpretation, and we received a grant from the NIMC to create a multi-lingual website that includes a wide variety of languages.

The Chairperson:

Thank you for your presentation and for answering our questions. We will take into account what you have said and the contents of your written submission.