COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

OFFICIAL REPORT

(Hansard)

Inquiry into the Development of a
Museums Policy for Northern Ireland

11 September 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

In attendance:

Ms Meadhbh McCann ( Northern Ireland Assembly Research and Library Services)

Witnesses:

Mr Stevie McManus ) Milford Building Preservation Trust

Ms Stella McDermott )
Mr Paul Mullan ) Heritage Lottery Fund
Mr Ronnie Spence )

Mr Frances Bailey ) The National Trust
Ms Diane Ruddock )

Mr Jonny Glendinning ) Railway Preservation Society of Ireland
Mr Mark Kennedy )

The Chairperson (Mr McElduff):

I draw members’ attention to two research papers. The paper entitled ‘Museums Policy’ provides an introduction to museum policy in general and offers an overview of the development of museum policy in England, Wales, France and Canada. The other paper entitled ‘Museums Policy in Northern Ireland’ examines the levels of public-sector investment in museums and compares it with that of other regions. I invite Meadhbh McCann from Research and Library Services to brief members on those research papers.

Ms Meadhbh McCann ( Northern Ireland Assembly Research and Library Services):

My presentation will be divided into two sections. The first will deal with regional and international examples of best practice in museum policy. The second will focus on museum policy in Northern Ireland.

Museum policy is, essentially, a legislative agreement that is made by Governments to establish and support museums. That involves administrative and financial elements and input in respect of decisions that are taken by individual museums in order to establish a role in their communities. Museum policy varies from country to country and, sometimes, from region to region in order to meet the specific needs of an area or cultural space. Therefore, to talk about best practice in museum policy is relatively anecdotal because the specific needs of one country or region might vary greatly from those of another. Sometimes, museum policy is not dealt with explicitly in its own right, but forms part of wider cultural policy.

In recent decades, cultural policies have been adopted by a broad spectrum of authorities ranging from local regional bodies to state and international Governments. The majority of European countries now have some form of programme, action plan or policy for culture. In 1998, the UK Museums Association agreed on the definition of a museum:

“ 'Museums enable people to explore collections for inspiration, learning and enjoyment. They are institutions that collect, safeguard and make accessible artefacts and specimens, which they hold in trust for society.”

The following regions and nations have been selected for comparison of museum policies: England, Wales, France and Canada. England has approximately 1,400 registered or accredited museums. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has four main priorities: allowing children the opportunity to enjoy a vibrant cultural and sporting life; opening institutions to the widest possible cross-section of people; encouraging creative leisure and tourist industries to provide the maximum possible benefit to the economy; and ensuring that museums and galleries are exciting, modern and provide real value for money.

In Wales, in 2006, the Department for Heritage established that there were 143 museums, 89 of which are accredited. A four-year governmental programme entitled ‘One Wales: A Progressive Agenda for the Government of Wales’ was introduced in 2007. That programme includes making Wales’s rich cultural heritage available to all.

In France, there are some 1,200 museums operating as part of Musées de France — a category created by law in 2002. Funding is made available to museums via the regions. In 1990, the French National Heritage Institute was created to provide specialist training to future curators in scientific and management tasks. In 2002, reforms freed museums in France, allowing them to operate more independently. The state’s responsibility is limited solely to acquisition. In 2001, a policy of free entry was introduced in Paris, and throughout France a principle of free entry for under-18s was introduced. France has introduced eco-museums, which have proved popular and respond to new demands from society.

In Canada, the Ministry responsible for culture is the Federal Department of Canadian Heritage. There are possibly 2,500 museums run not for profit, including large metropolitan galleries and small community museums. Some 59 million visits per annum were recorded. A virtual museum attracts millions of domestic and international online users. A pilot project aimed at improving the virtual museum’s learning centre, is also under way. The federal museums assistance programme, which operates across Canada, was still operating at 1972 levels in 2006. It provided only short-term project funding from a budget of 9 million Canadian dollars a year.

The second part of my presentation relates to museums policy in Northern Ireland. It is estimated that some 400 facilities are characterised as museums or centres, heritage centres or historical and listed buildings — none of which are registered museums. Of those 400, 88% state that they house objects, documents or interesting displays. Of the 26 district councils, nine do not run a museum. During 2007-08, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure has allocated just under £18 million for provision of museums: the precise figure is £17,992,000. Of that amount, the museums sector received the following: Northern Ireland Museums Council — £363,000; National Museums Northern Ireland — £14,972,000. The museums branch of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure has stated that the following allocations, made in the 2007 comprehensive spending review for the financial year 2008-09, are as follows: to National Museums Northern Ireland, £12∙85 million, recurrent; and to the Somme Heritage Centre, £30,000 from resources. National Museums Northern Ireland also received £590,000 as capital funding.

The internal reallocation during the June monitoring process has meant that the National Museums Northern Ireland capital budget has increased to £7∙911 million. However, that allocation includes £291,000 that was awarded to cover overspend in 2007-08. That sum will be clawed back later in the financial year.

I turn to potential benefits arising from investment in museums. PricewaterhouseCoopers states that the museums sector in Northern Ireland might potentially benefit the following areas: tourism, the knowledge economy, regeneration, social cohesion and inclusion, education, employment and the economy.

The total number of visitors to museums in Northern Ireland in 2005 and 2006 was 1,205,523. Of those visitors, 456,921 visited local museums, and 749,002 visited national museums. Museums in Northern Ireland attracted an 8% share of visitors to the country in 2004. Those visitors spent approximately £37·8 million, compared to £24·2 million in 2001.

Let us compare those figures with the allocations made to other regions. The allocations to various museums in England in 2006-07 were taken from a total of £478 million. The 2007-08 allocations were taken from a total of £522 million, and the allocations for 2008-09 were taken from a planned total of £534·520 million.

Public-sector investment in museums by the Scottish Parliament included £28·864 million for the National Museum of Scotland, and £4·041 million for other non-national museums. In total, £93·118 million was allocated to the whole museum sector in Scotland, which includes archives, galleries and monuments. The Scottish Arts Council is the main channel for governmental sponsorship of the arts in Scotland. The planned budgets for that area for 2007-08 will be over £66 million, which represents an increase of 69% on 2002-03. Post devolution, the funding allocation has increased, and by 2007-08 it will have more than doubled.

The Welsh Assembly Government has allocated £24·5 million to National Museum of Wales in 2008-09. Museums in Wales may also apply to a range of schemes through the Welsh Assembly, such as economic-development funding, the strategic change investment fund and organisations such as the Arts Council of Wales.

In the Republic of Ireland, the National Museum of Ireland received €6 million in capital funding and €13·512 million in current funding in 2007. In 2008, the National Museum of Ireland is due to receive €4·630 million in capital funding and €14·428 million in current funding.

Mr Shannon:

You said that 8% of visitors to Northern Ireland visited museums. Is that correct? Have you any figures for Scotland and Wales? Perhaps I missed that.

Ms M McCann:

The numbers of visitors to museums in Northern Ireland that I have mentioned are for 2004. Those are the latest tourism figures that I could get. The figures for Scotland were for more recent years. I did not want to use them as a comparator.

Mr Shannon:

Would there be a comparator for 2004 for Scotland and Wales? It is obvious that Scotland and Wales are spending a fair bit of money on museums, and they are spending more. I want to discover whether there is a trend, and whether the more they spend, the more visitors they get. Did they start from the same level of playing field as we are?

The Chairperson:

Those figures will be forthcoming.

Meadhbh, you mentioned an eco-museum in France. Is there any definition of an eco-museum? What constitutes an eco-museum?

Ms M McCann:

As I understand it, the eco-museum concept has proved extremely popular in France. It has increased awareness, and has changed French society’s views about what it wants to see in museums. It represents a more scientific approach, and is not so much about artefacts. It relates more widely to current society, and is a very modern version of a museum. There is little statistical evidence that I could obtain, because it is such a new concept. However, it has proved popular.

Mr K Robinson:

Where is it located in France?

Ms M McCann:

I am not certain. I assume from my reading about it that it is quite close to Paris. I can find that out for you.

The Chairperson:

It is my understanding that an eco-museum can often be associated with an industry. It could be associated with shipbuilding, linen industries, fishing, etc.

Mr K Robinson:

Or the nuclear industry.

Mr P Ramsey:

Do you have comparable figures for per capita spend across the regions?

Ms M McCann:

Do you want the figures for per capita spend for Northern Ireland, compared with Scotland? I have those, but they are not included in this presentation, which relates solely to the amount of money that has been allocated to each sector from each region.

Mr P Ramsey:

For future reference, it would be useful to know the per capita spend.

Ms M McCann:

I know that the Republic’s per capita spend is much higher than ours.

Mr P Ramsey:

I thought as much.

The Chairperson:

Those requests for information have been noted and will be addressed.

Mr McCartney:

Page 10 of the research paper details the number of participants in education programmes. Do the programmes entail a one-off visit or a series of visits?

Ms M McCann:

They involve a series of visits. They were grouped together according to which programmes were being run. I will try to obtain a breakdown of those.

Mr McCausland:

Does the figure of 8% represent the number of people of who visited Northern Ireland museums as a percentage of the total number visitors to Northern Ireland for that year?

Ms M McCann:

Yes. That percentage was calculated using the transport papers for 2004.

Mr McCausland:

Do we know what percentage of local people visited museums?

Ms M McCann:

We have figures only for how many people visited local museums, compared with national museums.

Mr McCausland:

I am referring to the number of local people who visited local and national museums in Northern Ireland. What percentage of the population in Northern Ireland visits a museum each year?

Ms M McCann:

I do not have an indigenous figure for the number of citizens who visit museums.

The Chairperson:

It would be difficult to obtain those figures.

Ms M McCann:

I agree.

[Interruption.]

The Chairperson:

I do not often have to do this, but there are at least three meetings taking place at the moment so I ask that only one member speaks at a time. Mr McCausland was making a point about indigenous visitors to museums.

Mr McCausland:

Yes. It would be helpful if a body such as the Northern Ireland Museums Council could obtain those figures. Some years ago, I took a group of senior citizens from my constituency to the museum, none of which had been before.

The Chairperson:

Which museum was that?

Mr McCausland:

It was the Ulster Museum. It is only at the other end of town from my constituency; it has free admission — and yet they had never visited it before. While at the museum, the group was excited and interested to learn about, among other things, a painter who came from their area. It troubles me that we are not reaching out to a wider population.

The Chairperson:

Tourists and local visitors are both important.

Mr McCausland:

Yes.

Mr P Ramsey:

I am sure that museum visitor numbers recorded by the Northern Ireland Tourist Board do not include figures for independent museums, such as the Apprentice Boy’s Memorial Hall in Derry and the Free Derry Museum. That will affect the quality of evidence that we will require throughout the inquiry.

We are without much evidence. It is easy to say that of the total amount of people who come to Northern Ireland, 8% visit museums. Surely more than 8% of visitors go to museums. We do not know the figures for independent museums.

Ms M McCann:

At the start of the presentation, I indicated that 400 facilities are not accredited. Unaccredited museums are not counted in the statistics. Those 400 facilities keep their own records. Accredited museums will have their visitor numbers reported. Independent museums will not have the same records so it is difficult to establish visitor patterns for them.

Mr McCausland:

I wish to pick up on a previous point. You mentioned the Northern Ireland Tourist Board — does that figure of 8% include only the number of people who come to Northern Ireland on holiday or does it include the number of people visiting on business? Generally, people who visit Northern Ireland on business do so to attend conferences, etc — not to visit museums.

Ms M McCann:

Would you like a breakdown of that 8% figure?

Mr McCausland:

Yes; the figure may be higher if one concentrates on holidaymakers.

The Chairperson:

Meadhbh is aware of the questions that Members want addressed. Thank you, Meadhbh, for your presentation.

I invite Mr Stevie McManus from Milford Buildings Preservation Trust to join us. A copy of the trust’s written submission is included in members’ packs.

Stevie, I must ask you a formal question that the Committee asks of all witnesses: do you intend to release a press statement following this briefing to the Committee?

Mr Stevie McManus (Milford Buildings Preservation Trust):

Not if the Committee does not wish me to do so.

The Chairperson:

I ask each group of witnesses individually if they wish to release a statement. You are free to do so; it is a matter for you.

Stevie, if you would like to make an opening statement, members may ask questions afterwards.

Mr McManus:

Good morning. I am the trustee director and keeper of collections of the Milford House Museum. The collection is owned by the Milford Buildings Preservation Trust, a registered charity that was set up nine years ago by myself and nine other members, when I was 15, to protect, promote and preserve Milford House for the benefit of the nation.

For those among you who have not heard of Milford House, it is famous for being the most technologically advanced house in nineteenth-century Ireland. It was the first house in Ireland to have hydroelectricity, and it was owned by the McCrum family, who were one of Ireland’s premier linen-manufacturing dynasties. Indeed, Robert Garmany McCrum invented an electric kettle and dishwasher.

The Wall Street crash hit the family fortunes hard, and, as a result, most of the home’s contents were sold off at auction. Any items that the family had kept were given back to the museum by the family in 2005. We have opened a museum at the house’s gate lodge. The main house is derelict; in fact, it is one of the listed buildings in Northern Ireland at most serious risk. It was last used as the Manor House Special Care Hospital, which closed in 1991.

The museum receives no Government funding; it is self-funded. Part of the difficulty is that the gate lodge, unlike the main house, is not a listed building, and we did not receive support from local or national Government with regard to it. Furthermore, a museum must be registered in order to receive funding — that makes it more difficult to obtain funding. Thus, the project was undertaken with money that was raised by the trust and through donations from past pupils of the Manor House School — the house was a private girls’ school during the 1930s and 1940s.

I want to speak today about the review of museums legislation. I understand that the Northern Ireland Museums Council is under review. The Milford House Museum has found the council extremely supportive. That said, we would not have heard of it had the council not contacted us after having read a piece that we had written in one of the local newspapers. Therefore, I feel that that resource should be used more. It is important that museums be accredited, but many independent museums are not aware of the accreditation process.

There should also be more support, if only moral support, for independent museums. There seems to be a great deal of emphasis placed on county museums and state-owned museums such as the Ulster Museum. Local museums play an important part in the tourism industry and promote business and culture. For example, the history of Milford House would have been lost for ever had our trust not tried to do something about it.

The Milford Buildings Preservation Trust believes that there should be specific legislation for Northern Ireland, rather than simply general UK legislation. The accreditation system is very much centralised in London. That is fine, but museums in Northern Ireland should be able to be accredited separately, which would make the process easier and quicker. Although in many cases independent museums in Northern Ireland are similar to those in England, the legislation is slightly different.

If the Northern Ireland Assembly decided to do away with the Northern Ireland Museums Council (NIMC) and not replace it with any legislation or infrastructures, it would be seriously detrimental to independent museums as there would be nothing to regulate or support them.

Museums accredited with the Northern Ireland Museums Council pay membership, and there is a pot fund that helps to fund simple matters such as framing and conserving items or putting an item on display. In this day and age when it is becoming more difficult get funding, that kind of resource is extremely important. It is also important to have such an organisation where one can go to for advice. I have worked with local, county and national museums and the Ulster Museum, and they have been very supportive. An organisation such as the Northern Ireland Museums Council relates more to the independent museums, and it also provides the opportunity to meet other independent museums.

Milford Buildings Preservation Trust’s recommendation is for the Northern Ireland Museums Council to stay, but it needs to be drastically improved. Its resources must also be improved and promoted more. Many independent museums were not aware that the council existed. The fact that non-accredited museums have not been recognised has already been mentioned this morning. The Milford Buildings Preservation Trust is not currently an accredited museum, although it is in the process of becoming one, and it fully acknowledges that it needs that status.

It is wrong to dismiss non-accredited museums. Many museums are not accredited and would like to be, but in many cases it is a slow process. In some cases, if a museum is not accredited it is simply ignored. That is wrong and it has a detrimental effect. Museums need to be accredited, but there should be more support available to help non-accredited museums to become accredited. The paperwork is often difficult and, if a person is not trained, it is difficult to put the paperwork together and meet the necessary standards. Since 2005, the Milford Buildings Preservation Trust has found that the standards have become much stricter. Some leeway and support is needed for museums to be able to become accredited. For example, were museums unable to meet the standards before getting accreditation, it could be that they could be given one year after getting accreditation to do so.

The Chairperson:

Thank you, Mr McManus.

Mr McCarthy:

Mr McManus may have already answered my question but I will ask it anyway. Has the fact that the Department does not have a formal museums policy had a detrimental impact on the museums sector in Northern Ireland?

Mr McManus:

I feel that that is so. Apart from the state and county museums, I had not heard of the majority of independent museums. Many people who manage such museums do not know where to turn for the necessary support.

Mr McCarthy:

That answers all my further questions.

Mr McCausland:

How does your museum operate as regards promotion and visitor access? I know that that may be difficult to answer, especially as it is not an accredited museum.

Mr McManus:

Milford Buildings Preservation Trust is open at weekends from 1.00 pm to 5.30 pm and a guided tour is available. It is similar to a historic-house museum, but it differs from the National Trust in that some of the items can be handled and visitors can sit down.

Mr McCausland:

Is the museum open throughout the year or just over the summer?

Mr McManus:

This is the museum’s first year in operation, and the season will close at the end of September. However, outside those periods visitors can come by arrangement, therefore, many people phone in advance. The museum is run on a voluntary basis with no paid staff. The museum is promoted through Armagh Down Tourism Partnership and it has a website. We had problems printing leaflets. We know how we should promote the museum but we do not have the necessary resources. We receive no funding, and we have found it difficult to get funding from our local authority, which is Armagh City and District Council.

They give us only moral support. The district council is not responsible for any museums as such — the county museum is run by Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI) — and does not really understand museums. Furthermore, its ethos is concentrated very much in the Georgian period, whereas we fit into the Victorian period.

Lord Browne:

Thank you. You have made a strong case in your presentation for the role that the Northern Ireland Museums Council has played in assisting you. You obviously believe that it plays an important role. Has it helped you in any way to draw up a policy framework? You are not currently accredited?

Mr McManus:

No. We are not accredited. We are in the process of trying to achieve that. We hope to pursue accreditation in November of this year.

The Northern Ireland Museums Council has been brilliant. In particular, the accreditation development officer, Heather McGuicken, has been very good. If one needs anything at all, she will help, visit at a moment’s notice and make contact with other museums. Through working with other established and accredited museums, we have learned how to meet the necessary standards and, indeed, how to become accredited.

Lord Browne:

Therefore, in your opinion, the Northern Ireland Museums Council plays a pivotal role in organising and helping museums such as yours?

Mr McManus:

Most definitely. However, it is an organisation that needs to be promoted more. Had it not contacted us, we would not have been aware that it existed.

Mr Brolly:

Could you use the fact that the penalty kick was introduced by Mr McCrum in Milford as a promotional tool? Perhaps an international penalty-taking competition would draw attention to the museum.

Mr McManus:

Certainly. The introduction of the penalty kick by Mr McCrum is a key promotional tool.

I have talked about Milford House being nineteenth-century Ireland’s most technologically-advanced house. However, the fact that it was the birthplace and home of the man who invented the penalty kick is the only tool we have been able to use to gain any press coverage. We cling to that, but we have not had much luck in using that fact to gain any funding. We have tried it from every angle without success — in part because we are not an accredited museum.

We approached the Heritage Lottery Fund for funding when trying to establish the museum. We were told to either give the items back to the original owners or place them in the Armagh County Museum. To place the items in that museum was not an option as the museum did not want them, and what the museum had of the content of the house had been in a storeroom for 45 years. Therefore, we persevered.

I fully agree that it is difficult to promote a museum if it is not accredited and not receiving any funding. We know exactly how Milford House should be promoted and the invention of penalty kicks should be part of that. However, the sad reality is that we do not have the resources to promote it in the way that it should be. Additionally, this is our first year and we are still finding our feet.

Mr P Ramsey:

You are very welcome today. It is good to see the independent sector doing so well.

Does the museum receive any public funding?

Mr McManus:

No.

Mr P Ramsey:

Where do your revenue streams come from? Are they in the form of voluntary contributions?

Mr McManus:

We have four volunteers in the museum apart from the trustees and they and the trust raise funds throughout the year. Other local groups — such as the local Women’s Institute — carry out other fundraising events.

Despite those events, we do not have the resources to properly preserve many of the items in the collection. Those items should perhaps be in cases in costume shops, but given the lack of resources, we can do only our best to meet the minimum standards. Does that answer your question?

Mr P Ramsey:

It does. To receive accreditation, you would require a certain standard of conditions in which to preserve the items. Where would you expect the capital money to come from to cover that?

Mr McManus:

We have already achieved those conditions. We would not have established the museum without doing so.

Before setting up the museum, we had the collection for a number of years. Given the lack of storage facilities, it had to be stored in my bedroom for three years while I slept on my mother’s sofa. Indeed, that is something that we tell people, and they are amazed when they see the 50,000 items that are on display.

When we were setting up the museum, we went straight to the Northern Ireland Museums Council and asked them what we needed to do to meet museum standards. We visited other museums — for example, Newry and Mourne Museum, Armagh County Museum and the Armagh Public Library — and asked them what we needed to do to meet museum standards in relation to security, heating, lighting, etc. A local business then sponsored those basic aspects so that we could meet the standards. We would not go for accreditation had we not met the standards.

Mr P Ramsey:

Do you have any knowledge of the independent sector outside Northern Ireland and of how such museums compete in relation to museum strategies?

Mr McManus:

No, I do not.

Mr P Ramsey:

I know that it is still an early stage for you, so it may be difficult to give visitor numbers, but can you tell us approximately how many people visit the museum at weekends?

Mr McManus:

On average, we get approximately 25 visitors at weekends. Quite a lot of groups visit, especially at the start of the season or when we arrange special events. In such instances we get approximately 80 people visiting a day. That is a lot of people, especially given that the museum is located in the gate lodge and that the rooms there are small. On many days, there have been people queued from the gate lodge, right down the avenue, and past the entrance gates of the house. As I said, currently, the main house is derelict so it is closed up and we do not have regular access to the gardens, so we are just based in the gate lodge.

Mr Shannon:

Hopefully, as a result of the inquiry we will be able to get you off the sofa and back into your own room again — that will be an achievement if that happens, although we will try to do more than that if we can.

You mentioned that the big house needs attention — do you intend to move the museum from the gate lodge to the house?

Mr McManus:

Milford House has 27 bedrooms, so it is much too big to turn into a museum only. Our proposal is that the house should have a viable economic use, whether that is offices or, ideally, a country-house hotel. It must have a viable use, but one that allows public access and will involve the house being restored, with the museum being incorporated as part of that.

The family started off as farmers and built a cottage beside the house that was later turned into a summer house. Our proposal is that the museum should move into the summer house and have access to the ballroom in the main house and, perhaps, one other room. The main reception rooms are quite spectacular and are very big, so we would be happy with having the use of at least one room in the main house and some of the outbuildings.

We feel that the main house must have a viable economic use but one that also allows public access, at least for a certain period of time during the year. Ideally, we would like to see the gardens turned into public parkland. There are 14 acres of garden with a lake, a swimming pool, three walled gardens and a fountain that is listed as a world art treasure, so the garden alone is quite an important amenity.

Mr Shannon:

That sounds interesting. Is your intention to have some sort of partnership with a private developer who would develop Milford House? That does not always work, unless the developer is committed to your project. In Ards, for example, the Blair Maine Research Society established a partnership that did not work out because the developer had other ideas about what he wanted to do with the house and, as a result, that project fell on its head.

Mr McManus:

We are considering two options and are working with a building preservation trust in Wales that has been established for longer and is much more experienced in developing such a project than we are. We are considering either jointly acquiring the property ourselves, or working with a developer. Most likely, that developer will be from the UK or elsewhere because, at present, we are not aware of anyone in Northern Ireland who would be interested in the project.

The house is in disrepair, which is largely due to vandalism.

The current owners of Milford House have spoken of their plans to turn it into Northern Ireland’s first retirement village, and we fully support that. We have not seen any plans for that as yet, and the house remains derelict.

Mr Shannon:

Would the retirement village be referred to as having assisted-living units? I am aware that that is one of the projects that is being evaluated — is that what they are considering?

Mr McManus:

It is something along those lines — the owners are proposing Northern Ireland’s first retirement village. That is quite an exciting project. It would also allow public access to the gardens and would give a viable excuse to maintain the main house: the outbuildings being used for the apartments, the main house being used for facilities and a restaurant that would cater both for the retirement village and the general public. It would also help to regenerate the Milford area and County Armagh.

Mr K Robinson:

I think that the questions I have are now superfluous. The issue of a museums policy is very highfalutin and futuristic. It sounds as if you are struggling to maintain an absolute treasure.

Mr McManus:

Yes, we are.

Mr K Robinson:

I think that there is a lot of sympathy around the table for the effort that you have put in, particularly in your domestic arrangements. Who owns the house and lands?

Mr McManus:

Milford House, its 40-acre estate and the gate lodge are owned by Mr and Mrs Gerald and Mairead Mackle, who own Homecare Independent Living, a company that provides assistance in nursing care for the terminally ill. They have bought up the estate over the years. They bought the house from Armagh City and District Council during what we uncovered to be a major scam to torch the house in order to collect the insurance money. The council tried to sue me for libel when I was 15 years old, but the case was thrown out of court because I had the evidence to prove that I was right. However, the house was sold, and Mr and Mrs Mackle are the current owners.

The owners have been very amenable: if we want to take anyone into the house it is not a problem and we can access the main grounds. In 2005, they bought the gate lodge, which had been sold off a number of years ago. We approached them as we thought that we could get funding in order to acquire the gate lodge, but when that was not forthcoming, they said that they would make us the caretakers of the gate lodge if we restored it. We restored it ourselves as it was in a state of disrepair. They had tenants in the house for a period of time.

The house badly needs to become the subject of an urgent works notice. Until two weeks ago, you could walk in through the back door of the house. Vandals enter the house — I could understand if they stole things, but they do not. They discovered that the house had under-floor heating, so they dug up the floors of the corridor just to see what was there, although they did not take the pipes or anything.

I have been told by architects that the problem with the Department of the Environment and the Environment and Heritage Service — which, I believe, has since been renamed — is that the house should have an urgent works notice served on it, but that they cannot be seen to go against Mr and Mrs Mackle if they are going to turn the house into Northern Ireland’s first retirement village.

Mr K Robinson:

Therefore, it is a convoluted background that you are struggling against. What is your view on a museums policy? Do you think that there should be one, and if so, what should the key elements and issues be?

Mr McManus:

Yes, there should be a museums policy, but, as I have said, there should be a separate museums policy for Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland’s museums should be able to accredit themselves; they should not have to go to England for accreditation. That would make things easier for museums, and it would be easier for independent museums to understand why they failed to get accreditation.

Mr K Robinson:

You would not like to deviate from the standards that have been set already, would you? You would not want to lessen the standards of accreditation?

Mr McManus:

I want some flexibility. I feel that the same standards should be met, but in accreditation there should be a period of a year or two years in which to reach standards that have not previously been met, so that there would be some flexibility in the scheme, particularly for independent museums. We are struggling ourselves because it is difficult — once you are accredited it does tend to become easier for some museums.

The Northern Ireland Museums Council must be maintained, but it must be improved upon and restructured. It is currently a small organisation; I am not saying that it should be made into a big organisation, but it should be made into one that is stronger and has more powers.

Mr K Robinson:

We visited Armagh as a Committee some time ago and saw some of the treasures in and around the city. Why can Milford Buildings Preservation Trust not forge closer links with Armagh City and District Council or the Armagh County Museum? You have outlined the Victorian/Georgian split, but it seems to me that there is a possibility for you to piggyback — for want of a better term — for a period of time to get yourselves established and accredited. Why have you not pursued that?

Mr McManus:

We work closely with local museums and galleries in Armagh City. We are a member of Armagh Visitor Education Committee, which consists of the museums and libraries in and around Armagh, and we work closely. However, Armagh City and District Council does not see, as it calls it, the big deal about Milford House and the penalty kick. It was really only through media publicity that the council is starting to realise its significance.

Armagh City and District Council feels that nothing exists outside the boundaries of Armagh City. That is not being cynical, but practical. Any civil servant or city councillor will tell you that that is very much the case.

Mr K Robinson:

Therefore, there is a danger of an own goal here instead of a penalty kick?

Mr McManus:

We are not alone in this respect. Other villages with heritage sites or parklands are also suffering because the council’s focus is very much centred on the city.

Mr K Robinson:

To be fair to the council, it probably has limited resources.

Mr McManus:

Like an organisation, the council has very limited resources and it manages quite a lot of heritage sites.

The Chairperson:

Steven, thank you for your submission. You made a number of key points, which I will ask the Committee Clerk to summarise.

The Committee Clerk:

One of the main points was that Milford House Museum is independent and voluntary and receives no funding. It manages itself, as it were, but only just. Mention was made of maintaining, improving and restructuring the Northern Ireland Museums Council, and of its supportive role. Accreditation was considered an important issue, as was the need for a local accreditation programme that would have time facilities built in. Given the difficulties posed by restrictions in the current system, that would enable standards to be met. The Northern Ireland Museums Council was considered important to Milford House Museum, and the belief is that it would be detrimental if the council did not exist or if legislation was not in place. The Department’s policy is thought to be detrimental to that particular museum and to museums generally.

Mr McCartney:

An important point is the idea of a phased approach to accreditation in order that groups are not penalised before getting final approval. Provisions should be put in place is applications are progressing.

Mr Brolly:

It is a pity that Milford House Museum is not in the circle. Everyone knows about all the other attractions around Armagh City. Milford House is, I believe, only a couple of miles from the city, like Navan Fort, but sometimes that is a disadvantage to attractions. It is like going to the Giant’s Causeway — people go there and that is it. Milford House would be very sellable if it saw itself as part of a ring of tourist attractions. Even the penalty-kick aspect is very sellable. Perhaps that is the approach that should be adopted — getting into a circle of attractions, rather like Carrickmore.

The Chairperson:

We have noted some of the key concerns.

I now welcome Mr Ronnie Spence, Mr Paul Mullan and Ms Stella McDermott from the Heritage Lottery Fund. I invite Ronnie to introduce his team and make an opening presentation.

Mr Ronnie Spence (Heritage Lottery Fund):

Thank you. Paul is the Northern Ireland manager of the Heritage Lottery Fund, and Stella is one of our casework managers. Both will contribute to the presentation.

The Heritage Lottery Fund is one of the bodies that are responsible for distributing the proceeds from the National Lottery. It operates throughout the UK under the control of a board of trustees. I am the Northern Ireland trustee. It also has a structure of a country and regional committee. As the Northern Ireland trustee, I chair the Northern Ireland committee.

The Heritage Lottery Fund is the largest non-governmental funder of heritage in the UK and has invested over £4 billion since 1994. In that time, Northern Ireland has benefited to the tune of £129 million. Looking to the future, the Heritage Lottery Fund will spend about £170 million a year across the UK, which is a 40% reduction in what it has been able to spend in recent years. That reduction is because resources have been taken from all the lottery funds to help to finance the 2012 Olympics. Even so, £170 million a year is a very large sum of money.

The Northern Ireland committee has an annual budget of just under £3 million, and we make our own decisions on projects that require less than £1 million of funding. Decisions on projects in Northern Ireland that seek more than £1 million are made by the UK board of trustees, which means that they must compete for resources with other projects in GB. Given that the amount of money that the Heritage Lottery Fund can spend has been reduced to £170 million a year, and because of the intense competition from projects in GB, in future, larger projects from Northern Ireland will succeed only if they are of the highest quality. In recent months, the trustees have had to decline funding for several very good projects in GB because there was not enough money. Projects from Northern Ireland will have to recognise that it will be much more difficult to win funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund, which is due to the intense competition.

To date, the Heritage Lottery Fund investment in the museum sector in Northern Ireland stands at £24 million, which has helped to lever in almost £43 million in additional project investment. We are delighted that we have been able to invest so much to develop, upgrade and reinvigorate the museum sector across Northern Ireland. Museums provide valuable space to display and interpret our heritage in our divided community. Museum attractions also make a significant contribution to our tourism infrastructure and the wider economic development of the region.

Ms Stella McDermott (Heritage Lottery Fund):

Funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund has been distributed directly to museums in several ways. For example, museum infrastructure projects have led to new museums at Ballymena, Ballymoney, Carrickfergus, Newry and Larne. We have funded the restoration and upgrading of museum exhibitions in Fermanagh, for example at the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum, the Armada exhibition at the Tower Museum in Derry, Armagh County Museum, the governor’s residence at the Down County Museum in Downpatrick and the Ulster Museum, which received our largest grant in Northern Ireland. We have also funded acquisitions to enhance collections, such as the Forrest Reid collection for Queen’s University, Hugh Thomson drawings for Coleraine Borough Council and various pieces for the National Museums Northern Ireland, including pieces of art for the Ulster Museum and buildings for the Ulster American Folk Park and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum.

Nationally, we are able to work with our local museums to attract funding through the Collecting Cultures programme, which aims to support curatorial skills, acquisitions and increase public involvement in collecting.

Recently, a successful partnership among Fermanagh County Museum, Derry City Council’s heritage and museum service, and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum designed a project to enhance collections on the theme of connection and division, which attracted a grant of £100,000. Furthermore, we allocated £174,000 to National Museums Northern Ireland on the theme of the Titanic. Finally, we fund activity and outreach programmes such as the Causeway Museum Service outreach programme, the Northern Ireland Reminiscence Network’s museum-based Memory Box project, and Young Citizens in Museums.

Mr Paul Mullan (Heritage Lottery Fund):

The Heritage Lottery Fund believes that heritage plays an important role in society. In particular, it helps different sections of the community understand themselves and their roots, and equips them with the tools and space to explore aspects of their heritage that they consider important. To that end, museums play a particular role, which was reflected in the Heritage Lottery Fund’s conference in 2007 on heritage and identity: ‘Digging Deeper: Sharing our past, Sharing our Future’.

Museums are fundamental to a thriving community; they can generate social cohesion, build local and personal identities, create opportunities for lifelong learning and provide an economic dividend through their contribution to regeneration and tourism. However, many museums struggle to realise their full potential, and Heritage Lottery Fund consults regularly with practitioners in the sector in order to identify barriers to success.

Those discussions regularly target certain problem areas such as a lack of resources for core tasks such as documentation, cataloguing, conservation and caring for collections; and increasing public demand for services. Those problems are set against cuts in funding, and the workforce lacks the required expertise and diversity and must develop leadership, curatorial, general management and business skills.

An overall strategy for museums in Northern Ireland must be developed. That strategy should address the lack of cohesion between National Museums Northern Ireland and regional museums and should also recognise the role of the independent sector. Moreover, the strategy should acknowledge that, at museums, people can explore difficult issues of heritage and identity. Therefore, museums play a fundamental role in creating a better society. The strategy should recognise the importance of developing major exhibitions that can explore difficult territory in an objective and relevant manner. Also, it should acknowledge the need for the development of key themes and storylines to tell the story of Northern Ireland — or the North — in order to remove assumptions, and should recognise the value of skills shared by museums and third-level institutions. Finally, the strategy should establish a plan for implementing our vision of a dynamic museum and heritage sector.

As Ronnie Spence outlined earlier, Heritage Lottery Fund’s funding capability will decrease in the future — we will only be able to fund the best projects. I reiterate Ronnie’s warning that, for Northern Ireland projects to compete with outstanding UK-wide projects, proposals must achieve the highest international standards. Northern Ireland must improve strategically.

Mr McCarthy:

Does the Department’s lack of a formal museums policy have a detrimental impact on the museums sector in Northern Ireland? If so, will you outline the nature of that impact?

Mr Spence:

First, we must pay tribute to recent years’ output with available resources. Some museum projects in Northern Ireland are of the highest quality, and we should be proud of that. In common with many areas of the public sector, the museums sector has not received the necessary resources, and we must develop a long-term strategic framework. Paul Mullan mentioned the relationship between the national museums and the regional and independent museums; it would be sensible to try to develop a long-term policy — or strategy or vision — for the museum sector and to implement that strategy with resources from public funds, the voluntary sector or the Heritage Lottery Fund.

Mr McCausland:

Will you explain the lack of cohesion between National Museums Northern Ireland and independent museums?

Secondly, on the point that Paul made about upping our game, in what ways are we falling short? Finally, you provide various sums of money to purchase acquisitions for museums. Many items that have relevance to Northern Ireland appear for auction in newspapers and go elsewhere. The answer to this question could be limitless, but to what extent is your capacity to address that matter falling short of the requests that you receive?

Mr Mullan:

I will address the last point first, namely collections. Recently, the Heritage Lottery Fund — on a UK-wide basis — provided a sum of £3 million for collections. Stella McDermott assessed that programme from a Northern Ireland perspective, and we were able to fund two projects. One, which concerned connection and division, was a project that was concerned with the border between 1910 and 1930 and involved the Fermanagh County Museum, the Tower Museum in Derry and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Regimental Museum. The second was a Titanic-related project through the Ulster Museum.

Collections have fundamental importance, so resources are required. Sums of money are provided by the Heritage Lottery Fund and the National Heritage Memorial Fund, which is our parent body, as such. Those measures will not be great enough to answer Northern Ireland’s particular problems, but conversations should be had with us in instances where there is a particular need or an object of key importance. However, competition is on a UK-wide basis and that is awfully difficult, given the budgetary restrictions that we already mentioned.

The other point was about upping our game. We must create the highest of international standards. One of the great opportunities is the economic development opportunity that is linked to tourism. If we want museums to really be attractive to foreign visitors, let alone our own people, they must be of the highest standards. In the past, applications have been made to us that have not met those standards.

Thankfully, some applications were particularly good. Yesterday, Ronnie visited the Ulster Museum with the Minister, and we look forward to seeing the new developments there. Yesterday, I visited at Fermanagh County Museum, which is exemplary in many ways. Upping our game is still important. It is about having the highest standards in everything that we do.

Mr McCausland:

What league are we in at the moment?

Mr Mullan:

To a certain extent, we are still not punching our weight, but we have the potential to do that. We certainly have the stories to do that.

Mr Shannon:

Are we in the first division?

The Chairperson:

We are at least seeking promotion.

Mr Mullan:

We have the skills and we have a fantastic sector. The first matter that you asked me about was the linkages between the national and local museum structures. There is no policy, so the connections are informal, as opposed to formal. A policy would integrate that in a much more sensible way and pull together the resources of the sector as a whole in a way that is not always achieved — that is achieved only sometimes.

Mr Spence:

I shall add a point about that. As one of the UK trustees, one of my responsibilities is to study the projects in GB that should be funded. I considered museum projects in big cities in England. The one that struck me as the most significant — and which really underlined where we are still deficient — was in a northern city in England, which I had better not name. There was a major proposal to rebuild a Victorian museum right in the city centre. On that project, the presentation to us was led by the city planning officer, because they saw that project as critical to the future of the city. The project conveyed where the city had come from and where it was trying to go to. It was seen as a major economic driver and a major tourist project.

That would not happen here, because people still tend to think of separate museum, heritage and cultural projects. We do not see enough of the linkages to help the big projects to grab the imagination and make a difference. That will help us attain what Nigel Dodds has said about achieving a step change in the contribution of tourism to the Northern Ireland economy. We really must aim for that top-class facility. If we were brutally honest, some of the projects that we funded in the past have been good, but they have not been in the first division; and we must get into the Premier League.

Lord Browne:

How many applications do you receive, on average? What percentage of those are successful in Northern Ireland? We want to increase that success rate, so do you believe that the Northern Ireland Museums Council could have a role in helping museums to achieve a standard that would make us more competitive?

Ms McDermott:

I do not have exact figures for the number of such applications that we receive every year. We receive approximately 60 applications in any year and the overall success rate is probably between 65% and 70%. NIMC could play a role by adopting a strategic approach to, for example, joining local museums with communities in order to tick our boxes on adding value for access, involvement and engagement. There are certainly roles that NIMC could play at a strategic level to up the games of local and independent museums.

Mr McCartney:

Paul, you said that a barrier to success was the failure to recognise the role of the independent sector. What steps do you think should be taken to recognise the role of the independent sector?

Mr Mullan:

The independent sector is extremely important. Stories can and are being told about, for example, the Somme Heritage Centre or the Museum of Free Derry. In a more integrated sector — and that does not necessarily mean that it is managed functionally — museums such as those could benefit greatly from the understanding and curatorial capabilities of national museums and other local museums. I am not necessarily saying that that is not happening. However, a sensible policy and good, well-resourced training throughout the sector would ensure that those independent organisations have the full strength of Northern Ireland’s capability.

Mr Spence:

I will appear before the Committee again, wearing another hat. That will be in respect of the idea of an Ulster sports museum, which would be run by an independent trust. From that angle, I can see the benefit of small, independent organisations, but they must have access to the right level of expertise. In the case of the Ulster sports museum, the existing museum sector has been very supportive and provided a lot of advice, but there is room for a great deal of variety. An Ulster sports museum could do something that national and local museums cannot.

Mr P Ramsey:

You are very welcome to the Committee. You indicated that total spend on museums to date is £24 million across Northern Ireland, levering in £43 million. Is that from central Government moneys?

Mr Mullan:

Primarily, yes.

Mr P Ramsey:

How does the per capita spend that we receive from the Heritage Lottery Fund compare to that in England, Wales and Scotland?

Mr Mullan:

I do not have exact percentages. Rather than focusing on the past, I prefer to look to the future. We will be able to compete against other parts of the UK only if we have first-class international applications. We are saying that a good, solid museums policy and a dynamic museums sector would generate good projects that we could link to heritage lottery funding UK-wide. Without those links, it is unlikely that we will see projects that are good enough.

Mr P Ramsey:

For future reference, it would be useful to have figures for the per capita spend.

Furthermore, there is no fixed amount set for the amount that, for example, Northern Ireland will receive over the next three years.

Mr Mullan:

There is a fixed amount, which takes the form of a local discretionary budget: it is £3·6 million this year and £2·4 million next year. In the past, those figures were between £4 million and £5 million. Ronnie referred to the reasons for those reductions. We will also have the ability for projects from 2009 and that are bidding for £1 million and above to go to UK trustees, of which Ronnie is one.

That is where we are competing; Northern Ireland is not guaranteed anything. We will get access to that money only if we have projects that are of superlative standards.

Mr P Ramsey:

We know the impact on arts and sport of lottery moneys being pulled back to fund the London Olympics. What is the effect on your organisation’s ability to provide museum services?

Mr Mullan:

We will have less money to offer. In the past, we have been able to fund most of the projects that meet a basic set of standards. Our appeal is that if we can up the standards to the highest degree, we will be able to attract more funding from England.

Mr K Robinson:

Thank you for your presentation this morning. You have, more or less, said that you are in favour of a museums policy. How do you see a museums policy being brought forward, and what might the issues be? You have touched on some of the key elements that would be contained in the policy; can you please expand on that?

Mr Shannon:

A question has been asked about the 2012 Olympic Games. How much money are you losing out on because it is being spent on the Olympics?

Have you any figures on how much of the Heritage Lottery Fund is being spent in Northern Ireland and how that compares to the rest of the United Kingdom? It is important to know whether we receive our fair share, compared with Scotland, Wales and England.

Mr Mullan:

We receive our fair share.

Mr Shannon:

Are we punching above our weight in respect of the share that we receive?

Mr Mullan:

When trustee funding is taken into account, it is difficult to give a figure. Money is allocated on a per-population basis. The fact that we receive a funding stream that is linked to churches means that we receive a slightly higher sum than would be expected for the population. That arrangement is in place for complex reasons.

Mr Shannon:

I am aware that the Heritage Lottery Fund has given substantial funding to a church in Newtownards for instance, and that has been a grand job. Is such funding separate?

Mr Mullan:

Our budgets work in quite a complicated manner. There is an overall allocation for churches throughout the UK; we are apportioned a sum. The demand in Northern Ireland for churches is a lot less than in the rest of the UK, so we are able to use that sum for other projects, which ups our overall percentage on the population basis. The process is a bit too complex to explain in just a few words.

We do not do badly in our ability to draw down trustees’ funding. There may be other regions in the UK that do slightly better, but we certainly do better than quite a number of regions. We are punching above our weight. To reiterate the point that I made earlier: the better the quality of projects that go to our trustees, the greater our ability to punch above our weight.

The Chairperson:

Will you address Ken’s question?

Mr Mullan:

The Heritage Lottery Fund believes that a vision and a policy for museums in Northern Ireland should be developed. DCAL should commission a process to develop and recommend policies to the Minister. The process should be open and transparent, and it should avoid being driven by the usual suspects — the great and the good. The process should create real debate among stakeholders, who will ultimately have to deliver policy.

The process should challenge existing assumptions. The stakeholders should include the museum sector; local government; universities; the secondary and primary education sector; key heritage organisations and individuals; and visitors to the museums. Any process should be timetabled and not frogmarched. We need a policy, and we need the right policy.

The Chairperson:

I thank the team of three from the Heritage Lottery Fund. Thank you Ronnie, Paul and Stella for coming along. Members, we will reflect briefly on the key points that emerged from the presentation. Do members wish to zone in on any of the points that were raised? If not, our staff have recorded everything more than well.

Mr K Robinson:

I would like to make one point. It struck me during a previous presentation — and, to some degree, during this one — that, if we are considering individual projects, we should also consider the issue of critical mass. If we are considering the public whom we want to attend museums and galleries and, if we want to bring in tourists, we must think of several areas in which we have a critical mass of things for people to see that are of value, whether those people are locals or are coming here to learn more about us from outside.

The Chairperson:

We will now hear from Ms Diane Ruddock and Ms Frances Bailey. You are both welcome. Diane is the National Trust’s external affairs manager, and Frances is the curator.

Without wishing to be mischievous, I am duty bound to ask whether you intend to release a press statement about this meeting.

Ms Diane Ruddock (The National Trust):

We do not plan to.

The Chairperson:

OK. Please make your presentation.

Ms Ruddock:

Thank you. I will kick off, and then hand over to Frances. The National Trust very much welcomes the fact that the Committee has initiated this inquiry, and we are pleased to have the opportunity to speak to you today.

I will begin by outlining a few key facts about the National Trust, which is a major conservation charity that was formed in 1895. Our remit covers natural, built and cultural heritage, and we operate throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Our director describes the Northern Ireland operation as “small but perfectly formed”, covering a good and representative range of those types of heritage.

We are responsible for approximately one third of Northern Ireland’s coastline; about 40 square miles of countryside; and a broad array of built heritage, ranging from mansions and gardens, such as Castle Coole in County Fermanagh and Mount Stewart near Newtownards, to much smaller and more intimate properties, such as thatched cottages, for example, Hezlett House in Castlerock and Derrymore House in Bessbrook, South Armagh. We are, perhaps, less well known for our representative selection of industrial heritage, such as Patterson’s spade mill and Gray’s printing press in Strabane.

The National trust’s statutory remit, initially stated in the National Trust Act 1907, is to promote:

“the permanent preservation for the benefit of the nation of lands and tenements (including buildings) of beauty or historic interest”.

In twenty-first century language, we describe what we do as looking after special places for ever and for everyone, and we place a high degree of importance on access and reaching out as broadly as possible.

I could say much more about the National Trust; however, I recognise that today’s focus is on museums. Therefore, I shall hand over to my colleague, Frances Bailey, who will provide you with more specific information about the trust’s engagement and involvement with the museum sector.

Ms Frances Bailey (The National Trust):

Good morning, and thank you for inviting us to attend this meeting. I am Frances Bailey, the curator for the National Trust. I advise the staff who work at our properties on the history and significance, and the presentation and display, of the properties and the historic collections that they house. In addition, I advise on the documentation relating to those historic collections.

The National Trust works closely with the museum sector, and it aims to achieve high standards of museum-level presentation, care of collections, scholarship and access. Of the nine historic house properties in our care, four are registered museums, and they are applying for the higher museum-accreditation standard. Those properties are: the Argory, Castle Ward, Florence Court and Springhill. In the next year, we will submit three more property applications for consideration: Mount Stewart, Ardress House and Hezlett House.

The four registered properties in Northern Ireland attract more than 135,000 visitors a year, of which 18,500 visitors are schoolchildren who visit as part of a Northern Ireland curriculum-based programme.

Those four properties contain more than 17,000 historic objects, not including the libraries.

We are upgrading our documentation of the historic collections to a digital database as part of a National Trust-wide project. The aim is to increase accessibility to, and facilitate better security, accountability and management of, the collections. I hope that I have given the Committee a useful, albeit brief, overview of the work that relates to our museum colleagues, and I am happy to answer questions.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you for your presentation, ladies. I am one of those people who donate painlessly by direct debit to the National Trust every February, and I am happy to do so.

The Chairperson:

Jim, you must also exercise the function of challenging the witnesses. [Laughter.]

Mr Shannon:

I took out a family membership when visiting Mount Stewart.

Ms Ruddock:

That is the fastest growing and most important category of membership.

Mr Shannon:

I am aware of that.

As part of the inquiry, the Committee is examining how best to promote museums. The National Trust has promotional relationships with other parties, such as Ards Borough Council and the Department for Regional Development. Incidentally, the Committee met in Portaferry last week, when members talked about how a visit to one museum does not make a day out; there must be more to it than that. That also harks back to what Francie Brolly said about the joint promotion of local visitor attractions.

The National Trust is involved in such promotional relationships. How will those develop, and could they be mirrored throughout the Province? In my constituency, Exploris has a relationship with Ards Borough Council, Mount Stewart with the National Trust, Scrabo Tower with the Department for Regional Development, and the Somme Heritage Centre incorporates an additional independent body. Thus, four different organisations work together to provide a day out.

Ms Ruddock:

I agree with you. Looking ahead, promotion is one of the challenges that we face, because the increasing number of tourists coming to Northern Ireland presents a fantastic opportunity. We must ensure that they stay longer, travel further and spend more. At the heart of the challenge is that tourists learn more about the rich cultural diversity of Northern Ireland. How do we do that? There was a time when every individual organisation — indeed within the National Trust, every individual property — felt that it had to compete for a small pool of local visitors. The National Trust wanted them to come to Mount Stewart, and that was it.

However, as the number of visitors increases, we are considering much broader cross-marketing activity to ensure that visitors to one place can also access information about all others in the locality. In Northern Ireland, we work with several regional tourism organisations to play our part in that. That is to everyone’s advantage, and we are open-minded about it.

To return to the idea of a museums policy, it would be helpful if it were to contain a strand on how the museum sector works in the national, local and independent sectors to ensure that messages are sent out about the wealth of different places for people to explore. Our marketing colleagues talk about “differentiating the offer” and ensuring that people who are interested in museums will be readily able to click on a website and find information on all the relevant places to visit. It is also important to effectively brand Northern Ireland to ensure that all aspects of Northern Ireland that are encapsulated in museums are accessible. For example, if people are interested in linen, they should be able to find out about all the relevant places to visit, whether that is the Irish Linen Centre and Lisburn Museum, the National Trust’s Wellbrook Beetling Mill, or other attractions. People who are interested in industrial heritage should be able to access the relevant networks and links.

There is already a lot going on and there is still a lot more to be done in the area of marketing. As my Heritage Lottery Fund colleagues said, there is plenty of scope to do more.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you very much for your presentation; I think that you said that you had ownership or control of one third of our coast line. I would encourage you to try to get more of that before unscrupulous developers destroy it completely — that is one for you to carry on with.

Mr Shannon:

What has that got to do with museums?

Mr McCarthy:

Pardon?

The Chairperson:

He does not see the relevance of that to a museums policy.

Mr McCarthy:

I want to see our coast line preserved — not destroyed by development — and I am sure that you would agree with that. [Laughter.]

Has the fact that the Department does not have a formal museums policy had a detrimental impact on the museums sector in Northern Ireland? If so, what has been the nature of that detriment?

Ms Bailey:

There may have been a detrimental impact but it is sometimes hard to define something by its absence. It might be useful to think about the risks associated with not having a clear policy in place. Those risks include the lack of a clear vision for museums across Northern Ireland, a lack of development in the museums sector, and the potential for museums not covered by the accreditation standard to fall below agreed professional standards. A policy would help to guide and maintain those standards.

There is the risk of piecemeal development across Northern Ireland’s museum infrastructure with a lack of joined-up thinking across interested bodies, Departments and authorities — we all tend to look after our own needs rather than think about the Northern Ireland-wide picture. There is a lack of any sense of direction and there is the potential for unnecessary duplication of resources in staffing and capital. A museums policy will provide a sense of cohesion, purpose, joined-up planning, better accountability on the part of the museums, and agreed standards across the sector.

Mr K Robinson:

You made an interesting comment about the accountability of museums. We all want new museums and to enhance existing museums, but what exactly do you mean by accountability? Is it the numbers through the door? Is it the quality of the experience?

Ms Bailey:

It is both of those aspects and it is a lot more. A lot of money is invested in capital development, but how do we measure the returns from that? Is it measured by the people through the door; by structured education visits; by accessibility within the local community; by the wider remit of local, regional, national, and international visitors who are coming? It would be useful if there was a common method of measuring those things across the museums sector so that we are all counting our numbers and assessing how much money we are spending on advertising and publicity in the same way. Currently, it is a bit difficult to compare museums across the sector because the number crunching is maybe done in different ways.

Mr K Robinson:

You indicated that a policy would obviously be welcomed by you, but how would you proceed with such a policy? What do you think should be the absolute key elements within that policy?

Ms Bailey:

A policy should be progressed swiftly, but not so swiftly that it is done in a rushed manner. It needs to be in-depth and based on sound evidence, intelligence and thorough consultation, not just within the sector, but with all the stakeholders. A number of stakeholders have an interest and an involvement in our museums, including local communities and the education sector.

There need to be clear strategies coming from that policy that enable the creation or the development of the right structures. Those structures need to follow the strategies and the strategies need to follow the policy.

Furthermore, it must enable museums to protect, in perpetuity, their collections. We are in this for the long term; not only the short. All museums will have to be able to preserve artefacts for the benefit of everyone in Northern Ireland for the long term. Therefore, a 10- to 15-year vision, at least, is required.

It should help to create a strong network in Northern Ireland that will link the national, local and independent special-interest museums, so that we can take advantage of such things as shared expertise, emergency procedures, plans and marketing. It should also strengthen existing North/South and east-west links.

Mr K Robinson:

How can we harness the enthusiasm that we have seen from the witnesses who provided evidence to this morning’s Committee with the hard-headed, professional approach that is required? How can that be achieved without pushing the enthusiast to the side?

Ms Ruddock:

One way to harness that enthusiasm is to build on what you have got already. For instance, people who visit our registered museums are not doing so merely because the buildings are museums. Likewise, people who go to the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum do not go simply because they have got a particular interest or it is a good day out. They go because they are engaged and like what they see, and the museum begins to present more layers of information to them. Those people are asked whether they recognise that what they see is an important part of a collection that we want to be available to the next generation.

Consultation is an overused word, and it puts a dead weight on an issue. However, you could, perhaps, find a different way of talking to people in Northern Ireland about their visions. The museums policy has to engage people who did not think that they had an interest in museums. For instance, you could ask an individual whether his or her grandfather worked in a linen mill, or tell them that he was probably a farmer. You could then ask them how they want the stories from that generation to be told to the next. The policy can, therefore, be developed around conversations and the opening up of issues rather than through talk of a museums policy, which would be a bit of a dead hand on it.

Mr McCartney:

Your written presentation highlighted that a museums policy should ensure that there will be consistent standards. How can the policy specify that there is a central provision to ensure that standards are raised and made consistent? Some people might think that they are achieving the proper standard and quality. I have local experience of someone who had an important historical document, which they laminated. However, when the individual handed it to a local museum, he was told that he should not have laminated it, but the individual thought that he was preserving it forever. It is important to get a balance. Professionals will know what the consistent standards are, but some amateurs will have a different view.

Ms Bailey:

You question raises two issues. The accreditation standards that have been devised by the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council — that is managed in Northern Ireland through the Northern Ireland Museums Council — are good. We ought to get all museums — small and large — to buy into and sign up to those standards, because they provide levels of standards of conservation, collections, care, access and security. They cover a range of areas.

If there was a policy that enabled increased networking between museums, the gifted, passionate amateur who does not have the conservation knowledge could, perhaps, access that knowledge through one of our national museums or seek advice from the National Trust’s conservators. Such a formal link would offer the facility to provide the information when it is needed.

The extension of the accreditation system to the Republic of Ireland — with advice from the Northern Ireland Museums Council — is welcomed, and it is being embraced by many museums in the South. It is terrific.

The Chairperson:

Pat’s question and Nelson’s question will be grouped.

Mr P Ramsey:

I know that there are a number of museums that are preparing for registration, but how are the four accredited museums funded through capital and revenue? Do you have any knowledge of the museum sector outside Northern Ireland, and any examples of best practice that could be examined to ascertain the best way forward?

Mr McCausland:

You mention Hazlett House; does the trust also own President Woodrow Wilson’s ancestral home near Strabane?

Ms Ruddock:

No, it does not.

Mr K Robinson:

There is also the Andrew Jackson Cottage and US Rangers Centre in Boneybefore, Carrickfergus.

Mr McCausland:

How can such cottages of international significance be made sustainable? How do we ensure that people can actually gain admittance to those places, and avoid situations in which a tourist arrives from America to find that the doors are closed? Many of them are small places. How can those issues be addressed?

Lord Browne:

Is there any system of profiling the visitors to National Trust properties to give an indication of how many tourists arrive from outside Northern Ireland, for example? You mentioned the Northern Ireland Museums Council; does the trust have a relationship with that body, and how do you find that relationship?

Ms Ruddock:

My colleague and I will answer all the questions between us. To deal with the question about funding, the overview is that the trust is a conservation charity. It generates most of its funding through membership subscriptions, visitor admissions and so forth. It relies very heavily on donations from the public. Here in Northern Ireland, the trust broadly benefits from grant aid from a number of sources. That grant aid is not an automatic subvention; the trust applies for grants for specific projects. In relation to museums, for example, the trust may derive a grant from the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) for built-heritage projects that meet that organisation’s requirements. The trust also receives grants from NIEA for work that delivers their statutory objectives of nature conservation and protection of the countryside. Frances will answer the more specific question about funding for museums.

Ms Bailey:

In my experience, museums are funded from a range of sources. In the UK and Ireland, they can be funded by central government, local government, charities, and trusts, and some are run on a purely voluntary basis. Many need to seek funding from a cocktail of external sources, such as grant-giving bodies, and those sources often form the lifeblood of such museums, especially for small places such as the Wilson homestead.

In Northern Ireland, the NIMC plays a crucial role in that respect; it plays a role in funding work, collections care, access to collections and training, and also assists with the purchase of museum objects. The four registered museums have benefited from the NIMC grant scheme, which has helped the trust to improve conservation, and increase accessibility to the collections. Grant aid has included nearly £12,000 funding for digital photography for inventory work, the creation of a part-time curator post for the costume collection at Springhill, and over £34,000, over a number of years, towards collections care. The trust has also been able to match fund that, so that it totals in excess of £66,000.

Funding of that type is absolutely fundamental, because few external funding bodies support such vital, if mundane, activities as collections care. The funding that went towards the costume collection also enabled the trust to unlock a further £150,000 from the Heritage Lottery Fund, which was used to facilitate a travelling exhibition of costumes. That was a way of getting the collections out to people, rather than insisting that they visit the collections.

Ms Ruddock:

It is worth adding that that costume collection is still touring, and it is currently in the Tower Museum. With regard to experience of the museum sector outside Northern Ireland, there is some good work going on in a number of different places, including in the UK and — although we do not have direct experience of it — in Canada, and other places.

If the Committee wishes, we can provide a little more information on that UK-based work.

Ms Bailey:

The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has been particularly active in that area.

Ms Ruddock:

As regards the much more difficult questions about, for example, how to make small places, such as the Woodrow Wilson ancestral home or the Andrew Jackson Cottage and US Rangers Centre, sustainable, the National Trust is not brilliant on Presidents. However, through Gray’s Printing Press, it has a link to the printing of the Declaration of Independence.

The challenge is real. Certainly, the trust has found that its small properties, such as Hezlett House or Derrymore House, do not generate sufficient income from visitors for them to be anywhere near sustainable. That is how they could benefit from being part of a larger network. Therein lies the answer: if one differentiates and examines themes, perhaps such links with our cousins across the big pond are crucial. Perhaps, through links with the Ulster American Folk Park, there is an opportunity for those places — while allowing them to maintain their independence, because, often, that is what gives them their particular character — to receive support by being joined to other bodies. Perhaps, enabling those small places to draw marketing or curatorial support, which could come from the trust or the national museums, is one way that they could secure their sustainability. It is a crucial to develop a policy in that area. The very nature of Northern Ireland means that much of its heritage is in small bits, rather than grand. It is important that that is reflected. Therefore, the National Trust seeks a policy that will do that.

You asked whether the trust has a profiling system. It certainly counts its visitors. The National Trust’s system is not as sophisticated as those of other organisations of which we are aware that can almost tell what their visitors have had for breakfast. However, the trust tries to capture as much information as possible about from where its visitors come. It does so through visitor surveys, which is simply sampling. We can also gather information through specific areas. For example, the coach market, which is growing at present, helps us to track where visitors come from. We also put much store upon measuring visitors’ satisfaction through surveys, comment cards and suchlike. We believe that that is crucial, because without that feedback from visitors — positive and negative — the organisation cannot progress and ensure that it meets external needs.

The Chairperson:

I thank Diane and Frances for their presentation and for answering our questions.

Ms Ruddock:

Before we leave, the trust wants to offer, and would be happy to facilitate, a visit by the Committee to any of its properties or museums in order to allow members to see how the trust works on the ground, should the Committee consider that to be helpful to its deliberations.

The Chairperson:

During the course of your presentation, did you offer to provide additional information on several questions?

Ms Ruddock:

We offered to provide information from elsewhere. We are happy to so do.

The Chairperson:

That is our understanding. That is great. Thank you very much.

If members are content and Committee staff have noted the key points, we shall proceed immediately and invite the representatives of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland (RPSI) to come forward. We are joined by Mr Johnny Glendinning, who is the chairman of the society, and Mr Mark Kennedy, who is curatorial adviser at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum.

Mark was helpful in showing the Committee round the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum recently. As a mater of protocol, do you intend to issue a press release on your submission?

Mr Mark Kennedy (Railway Preservation Society of Ireland):

No.

Mr Shannon:

The deputation may get the impression that it is not allowed to release a press statement when that question is asked. However, that is not the issue; the Committee asks the question for information.

The Chairperson:

Maybe in future Committee staff should ask deputations that question in private prior to the meeting.

Mr Jonny Glendinning (Railway Preservation Society of Ireland):

I thank the Committee for inviting us. I am the chairman of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland, which was formed in 1964 at a time when steam trains were disappearing from our railways and dieselisation was being introduced. The Railway Preservation Society of Ireland has been preserving the carriages, engines, etc, but has become an official registered museum only since 2002. It is now on the next step, which is to become an accredited museum.

I am also a member of the Northern Ireland Museums Council board and one of the two representatives for the independent museums on that board. Therefore, from that perspective, I have taken a great interest in what is happening. Mark Kennedy is our curatorial adviser and, under the accreditation scheme, it is one of the criteria to which a voluntary organisation such as ours must be linked, and that is where Mark fits in.

The other important aspect for us is the link that we have to the rest of the museum world and the professional museum world through the Northern Ireland Museums Council. We were concerned that the NIMC would disappear under the review of public administration and that we would be expected to become part of some local council and have to fight to be recognised along with that council’s own museum interests.

Mr M Kennedy:

Approximately 15 years ago, the Northern Ireland Museums Council asked me to be curatorial adviser to the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland, and I was happy to take on that role. The society, or any other independent museum, has a curatorial adviser so that if there is any aspect of museums that they need help with, they have one person to go to. If I can help them I will, and if I cannot, maybe someone else in my organisation can. I have a conduit through which they have access to conservation, security or whatever other advice is needed. They can also go straight to the Northern Ireland Museums Council for help and assistance for finance or training.

Mr Shannon:

Thank you for your presentation. I am impressed by the fact that visitor numbers have risen by 61% over the past five years to 205,000 a year, which is quite dramatic. Is that down to the fact that inside every one of us there is a train driver waiting to get out, or is it because people are genuinely attracted to what you are trying to do? The Railway Preservation Society of Ireland has shown that extra people can be encouraged to visit its attractions. How can we transfer to other museums what it has done to ensure that the same thing happens? However, the increase in visitors may be due to the society’s specific attractions.

My second question is about the train restoration project in Downpatrick. Are you involved in that? How does that tie in with other attractions? It is important to try to develop that project. There is perhaps, a theme running through this inquiry, Chairperson. How do we market such ventures better?

The Chairperson:

If you do not mind, Jim, I will group your questions with Kieran’s questions.

Mr McCarthy:

Thank you very much for your presentation. I notice that in your paper you welcome our efforts to establish a museums policy for Northern Ireland. Having said that, is it to the detriment of the museums sector in Northern Ireland that the Department has not had such a policy up to now? If that is the case, what has been its impact?

Mr M Kennedy:

Downpatrick and County Down Railway has links with an adviser in the local authority museum. I have a formal link with that society as a conservation adviser. Effectively, it is the same thing. It is about having a link to a specialist professional. The Railway Preservation Society of Ireland has links with a number of organisations. There is a specialist railway group called the Heritage Railway Association, which is a Europe-wide organisation. It holds regular meetings in Ireland and the UK.

The RPSI lends vehicles to assist in heavy restoration projects such as locomotive boiler repair. Downpatrick and county Down Railway does not have those facilities in-house, because they are very expensive. It would bring the boiler to the RPSI facility in Whitehead. There are all sorts of links. There are museum loans of vehicles in both directions and also with Cultra, and good relationships exist. However, there is always room for improvement.

Mr Shannon:

Are your visitor numbers specific to your existing attractions, or do they go beyond that? It is important for the Committee to be aware of success stories about visitor numbers. If there is something to be learned, we can apply it to the museums policy and the overall strategy that we are trying to develop.

Mr Glendinning:

The numbers that we mentioned refer to the overall independent group, and not just the railway attractions. Our figures are up, and we are doing well, but collectively we are talking about the independent sector, which is a very wide sector. Several museums in Northern Ireland are totally independent.

On Kieran McCarthy’s question, I have yet to find anyone to tell me that there is a departmental policy on museums. Independent groups such as ours are certainly not ranking. We are not under any consideration. The RPA position on a museums policy indicates that. The Department has given no thought to what is to happen to the independent sector. The National Trust is an independent organisation and its attractions form a large part of museum collections.

The museum in Downpatrick is an accredited museum and is a member of the Northern Ireland Museums Council. There are many links there. We have worked with the National Trust, and through our contacts. The Northern Ireland Museums Council provides that networking, which is very important to us.

Mr McCartney:

You said that you started in 1964. When did you apply for accreditation? What were the obvious benefits to the organisation of being accredited?

Mr Glendinning:

The first of the obvious benefits of accreditation is recognition, the second is the realisation as to whether one is doing things correctly, and the third is funding. Once the accreditation label is acquired, a museum is eligible to apply for funding that would otherwise be denied it.

Mr McCartney:

Does that apply right across the board or only for particular organisations?

Mr Glendinning:

It applies across the board. An accredited museum finds that doors open easily; museums that are not accredited find that they do not.

Mr M Kennedy:

In applying to some charities and grant-giving bodies, perhaps such as the Carnegie UK Trust — although I am not sure whether that is a good example — accredited museums can skip the first half-dozen questions on grant application forms. The charity can be assured that the museum will have policies on collection, disposal, child protection, education, and so on. It can be confident that the museum has considered all those aspects.

Mr McCartney:

As a condition of accreditation, did the society have to employ Mark, or was he seconded to it? Did accreditation have a bearing on that?

Mr Glendinning:

Yes. A condition of accreditation is that a museum must have a curatorial advisor, or, in the case of sufficiently large museums, a professional curator.

Mr Brolly:

I am interested in your comment on the review of public administration proposals and the intention to give local councils control of museums. You claim that they will have an adverse effect on independent museums. Under those proposals, would the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland in Downpatrick not come under the wing of the local council, have much closer contact with it and would funding not, therefore, be more readily available to it?

Mr Glendinning:

That is possible. Our point is not that museums will come under the authority of councils; already, Down County Museum is funded by the council. It is, rather, that under the review of public administration proposals, the Northern Ireland Museums Council would disappear. On that council, independent museums have as much voice as any of the others and have as good a chance of obtaining grant aid, access to training, etc.

I do not wish to suggest that Down District Council is particularly bad. However, as there is only so much money available, there is no reason why, under those proposals, Down would not favour its museum first and give the leftovers to independent museums. That is my fear.

Mr Brolly:

We appreciate that.

We have heard from various groups that there may be a weakness in the marketing of museums. A lot of money is spent on training and acquisitions, but if people do not know that the collections are available, there is little point in that. We heard about a good example of that during the first witness session, with respect to a place that people would be keen to visit, but which is not well known. Who is to blame for that?

Mr M Kennedy:

I agree that marketing could be better and more joined up. There is great range of facilities in the independent museums. However, people are coming to see good collections — the collection defines the museum. Some of the independent museums — the railway societies, for example — still keep vehicles outside; they do not have adequate toilets or baby-changing facilities. Improvements in infrastructure would make them more desirable visitor destinations.

However, the Internet has facilitated great improvements in marketing. Obvious examples include the Downpatrick Railway Society, which has a very good website that is frequently updated and contains good links pages to other railway-themed sites and other visitor destinations in the area.

There is always room for improvement. As with so many things, a small grant — £500 here or £1000 there — can enable big strides to be made, for example with production of leaflets and their distribution.

Mr P Ramsey:

I sense frustration in the sense that, compared to the independent sector, you are not getting as much out of the system as you should. Are there other areas in the independent sector, for example in England or Wales, where societies such as yours are better looked after? What are your funding streams, and on what are you dependent for survival?

Mr Glendinning:

We are dependent on our membership, and on what we can get from various grants, which are not big. At present, we have an international fund grant for restoration of our trains, which we have had to modernise to meet modern railway standards. We do not operate on our own private line — we operate on Northern Ireland Railways and Irish Rail. Therefore, we have to meet modern standards, and that is expensive.

Mr P Ramsey:

What is your success rate with funding applications, either capital or revenue?

Mr Glendinning:

It is about 50:50. It is difficult, but I am hopeful that we will have a better success rate because, as an accredited museum, we are seeing more doors open. We are now talking to the Heritage Lottery Fund.

Mr P Ramsey:

It is a matter of credibility.

Mr Glendinning:

I agree.

Lord Browne:

Have you had any input from or involvement with the private sector, and have you approached it for investment — for example, Translink?

Mr Glendinning:

Translink — which cannot support us financially — is very supportive, and assists us when it can.

Mr K Robinson:

I declare an interest as the former principal of Cavehill Railway National School, which was located at the oldest railway line in Ulster, despite what Belfast and Lisburn people might say, and for which there is evidence in the House of Lords Library. I am an avid buff of Thomas the Tank Engine, along with all my grandchildren, so for goodness’ sake, do not get into the state of the Sodor railway.

I wish to pay tribute to the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland because it stepped in and saved a crucial part of our industrial heritage. The society upgrades its stock, and unfortunately I was unable to attend the launch of a recent upgrading. I know that you have had problems at Whitehead, so you are always struggling to overcome difficulties, such as upgrades to meet new safety standards.

What the society did not tell us is that it is very active and successful in running rail tours throughout Ireland, and spreads the word of railway preservation well beyond these islands.

I am often struck by the fact that you are wee bit detached from the mainstream. We have spoken about critical mass. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, with its rail connection, is also a wee bit detached, although it is in a wonderful setting. The Railway Preservation Society of Ireland has its collection at Whitehead, which is rather detached.

There is a great interest in railways, and great marketing potential, on which a museums policy might expand. How do you see such issues being developed through a museums policy?

Mr Glendinning:

A museums policy should cover four areas: collection, audience, learning and resourcing. We definitely need to be involved in those areas.

Mr K Robinson:

Those are the four key elements that must exist?

Mr Glendinning:

Yes. A policy must have a vision, a strategy to achieve that vision, and measures to make sure that those strategies are working. At present, we see the policy of DCAL as having strategies, but no vision and no measure. That is what we want to see developed.

Mr M Kennedy:

There are many infrastructures already in place, through both the NIMC and the Heritage Railway Association. The Irish railway societies and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum are members of those organisations, and that is an easy way for them to link up. Although funding stopped some years ago, we used to get a grant from the Tourist Board each year of about £800. That covered the cost of a leaflet named ‘Steam Trains Ireland’. The Tourist Board and Bord Fáilte funded that. There were 30 places on that list, and it was handy to have available in tourist information centres and such places.

Mr K Robinson:

We have discussed a policy and how elements may be incorporated into it. Who do the witnesses envisage driving the policy forward? If we can agree the policy, what will drive it? That is what we must do.

Mr Glendinning:

Northern Ireland Museums Council board members and DCAL have considered writing the policy. DCAL has priced that with consultants, decided that it is too expensive, and decided that it cannot afford to do it. We consider, however, that there is no need to bring in consultants: all the expertise needed is present in National Museums Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Museums Council. The Northern Ireland Museums Council has all the necessary information on the contents of collections and visitor numbers. If consultants are brought in, they will go straight to the council and obtain all that information from them.

Instead, National Museums Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Museums Council should be brought together to write the policy.

The Chairperson:

Thank you, Johnny and Mark, for your presentation and for answering our questions. Staff have recorded all the key issues.