the court process in relation to civil and criminal cases involving children take full account of the needs of the individual child with a list of immediate requirements.

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Ms Gildernew
Ms Lewsley
Mrs Courtney
Dr McDonnell
Mr McMenamin
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Mrs M Cunningham ) Director,
Child Care Northern Ireland
Mr R McCrea ) First Key NI
Dr J Pinkerton ) First Key NI
Mrs K Lewis ) Northern Ireland Foster
Care Association
Ms O Lyner ) Northern Ireland Association
for the Care and
Resettlement of Offenders

902.

The Chairperson: We have two evidence sessions examining different aspects of the possible remit of a Commissioner for Children. There are representatives from a number of organisations which co-ordinate childcare in Northern Ireland. We shall have a short introduction by Mary Cunningham, director of Child Care Northern Ireland. That will be followed by a brief submission from each organisation, after which we shall have questions and answers. Briefing papers from First Key (Northern Ireland), the Northern Ireland Foster Care Association (NIFCA), and the Parents' Advice Centre (PAC) are available. A briefing paper from the Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC) is tabled for members' information.

903.

I ask the groups to come forward.

904.

Mrs Cunningham: I am sorry, but Kelly Collins from VOYPIC has not arrived. We also have with us Dr John Pinkerton, chairperson of First Key (Northern Ireland); he and Ross McCrea will share their evidence.

905.

The Chairperson: Please make your presentation and introduce the people with you today. I ask that you keep your submissions brief.

906.

Mrs Cunningham: I should like to thank you for giving Child Care Northern Ireland's members a second opportunity to present evidence on the Children's Commissioner to the Committee. You will have received copies of Child Care Northern Ireland's briefing paper on the Commissioner. As you mentioned, there are a number of briefing papers from individual members of the delegation which highlight certain issues which we shall talk about today. Ross McCrea is the senior policy officer from First Key (Northern Ireland), the leaving and aftercare organisation. Dr John Pinkerton is the chair of First Key (Northern Ireland) and is also the assistant director of the Centre for Childcare Research at Queen's University, Belfast. Kate Lewis is director of the NIFCA, and Olwen Lyner is director of the Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO).

907.

Dr Pinkerton: I shall begin by drawing attention to the first page of our written submission, where we set out the function of First Key (Northern Ireland). We also state our aim of improving the life chances of young people of 16 and over who are leaving or have left care. It is important to understand that First Key (Northern Ireland) is not a direct service-provider organisation; rather it acts as a resource for organisations which plan and provide services through training, developmental consultancy, evaluations and audits and public policy work.

908.

We are committed to understanding and making available care-leavers' own experiences and views on what has and has not been helpful to them in making their transition to adulthood. We wish to welcome the prospect of a Commissioner for Children's rights. It is an important additional component in the support framework necessary to enhance the status of and improve the quality of life for all Northern Ireland's children and young people.

909.

The prospect of a Commissioner for Children raises two important points for us. First, the Commissioner is an additional resource. Secondly, the functions of the post will cover all children. The second page of our written submission provides a list of characteristics we feel the Commissioner must have. From that list you will see - as with our colleagues across the voluntary sector - that we are looking for a Commissioner with the necessary power, authority, independence and respect to take on a promotional and investigatory role. We see it as a role taking the UN Convention as its touchstone. Young people leaving care would benefit from the activities of a Commissioner, both from the general benefits to all children and young people, and also in a number of specific ways, as we shall now illustrate.

910.

Mr McCrea: Perhaps I might take you directly to the bottom list on page two of the briefing paper and make one or two illustrations. In the promotional aspect, highlighting good practice is one of the points we wish to make. Number five on the list involves promoting the teaching of rights among social-services professionals. A Commissioner could encourage and exchange good practice in promoting and raising awareness of children's rights and the implications such a course would have on professionals working in the area. We could refer to the minutes in the Commissioner's annual report on the status of children and match them against the UN Convention.

911.

A second point would ensure that children and young people are informed about public policy proposals. For example, we are currently considering proposals for a new Bill dealing with children leaving care. The children's rights Commissioner could take on a public relations initiative such as television, perhaps having a monthly slot about current issues concerning children and young people, within which he could discuss public policies and proposals. The Commissioner will have a very recognisable and high-profile position. An investigatory role will involve asking hard questions: what is happening; questions about the systems; and others particular to young people.

912.

When looking at children as a new legislative need, one of the questions we ask is if we need a Commissioner. The guidance and regulation in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 on children in care set out very good practice regarding appeals being heard. However, it has clearly not been implemented, and there are resource implications. That is really something the Children's Commissioner could lead on.

913.

We were talking to some care-leavers last night, and they pointed out the case of two who entered higher education, giving examples of how they received very different levels of financial support from different trusts. A Commissioner could investigate why one individual was disadvantaged.

914.

Dr Pinkerton: I imagine we shall come back to some of these points in discussion. However, we hope that those few are sufficient to illustrate that a Commissioner will benefit young people leaving care. A Commissioner would reinforce specific work underway in relation to a particularly vulnerable group and be responsible for ensuring cumulative general benefits for all children.

915.

Mrs Lewis: NIFCA is a voluntary organisation comprising foster carers and social workers. Our three main aims are: to promote foster care throughout Northern Ireland; to provide training opportunities for foster carers and social workers; and to provide direct independent support to carers and others.

916.

The Committee has heard evidence about the role of the Children's Commissioner and how he could affect a broad range of issues involving children, who comprise one third of the population. I have outlined certain issues concerning children in public care in the briefing paper.

917.

In 1999 there were 2,324 children in public care in Northern Ireland. Sixty-five per cent were looked after in foster care, and that fact is often not recognised. When people think of public care, they often think of residential care, but the majority is being cared for in homes throughout Northern Ireland, with children in residential care a tiny minority. However, those children have experienced many difficulties in their lives, including abuse, and they often need additional help to recover from those experiences. Judging by the telephone calls we receive, vulnerable children in care, along with their carers and social workers, often face an uphill struggle in accessing appropriate and timely services. We feel that a Commissioner for Children could act as a powerful watchdog in ensuring that services are targeted at those children and that they receive the service we would wish for our own offspring.

918.

My second point concerns examining the Children's Commissioner as a champion for children. The proposals already outlined by Child Care Northern Ireland included the role of monitoring services, and we endorse that. Monitoring services, including the allocation of resources, is an issue, and often resources are allocated to children's services but may not be spent in that area. We feel it could be a very powerful role for the Commissioner. For example, the Social Services Inspectorate report on fostering in Northern Ireland, which was published in 1998, found that, while fostering is the dominant type of care, the total expenditure on the service was only £2·14 million. In 1999 £2·44 million was spent on children's residential services.

919.

The majority of children are looked after by foster parents, with 11% in residential care, yet more resources go on the latter. Our contention is that well- supported foster carers with the necessary financial resources could safeguard the rights of children in their care and help promote a service that would increase their self- confidence. It would also meet their needs for physical, emotional and social growth. We see the ability to oversee and monitor resources as a very important role.

920.

Thirdly, children and young people in foster care have the right to feel safe and protected from abuse and neglect. The Children's Commissioner could have a role in promoting those rights and investigating any denial of them. He must ensure a balance is struck between the rights of children in care and those of carers and their families, something that is very difficult to achieve. The Children's Commissioner could ensure that, where complaints or allegations are made, they are acted on and investigated promptly. At present the process is subject to lengthy delays which are stressful for carers and children. That is of added significance in foster care, for it is home-based. The independence of the Children's Commissioner could act as a catalyst in helping to promote interagency co-operation in that very difficult area where complaints or allegations have been made. We feel they could have an information and advice role with a variety of agencies, including the social services, the police, the courts and the Director of Public Prosecutions.

921.

The birth children of foster carers can play an invaluable role with those placed in their families. They too have the right to see their family life protected; we must ensure parents are not overwhelmed by the tasks they have undertaken. They also need opportunities to have their viewpoint listened to and taken into account in the provision of services. While many services are targeted - and rightly so - at children in foster care, the children of carers are often a neglected group; they too have rights as well as responsibilities in the family.

922.

We feel the Commissioner would need to be someone with the ability to listen and the skills to engage directly with children. He will also need to be able to consult with parents and others involved in the promotion of children's rights. The successful candidate will have a tricky balancing act between the rights and responsibilities, taking into consideration the rights of children but also the concerns and rights of parents and others involved in family life.

923.

Finally, to make a difference to children's lives, the Commissioner must have the necessary powers and resources to enable him to carry out his duties.

924.

Ms Lyner: I should like to start by acknowledging the Committee's work today and the representations made by other agencies; we have looked at that evidence.

925.

In broad terms, NIACRO is concerned that all organisations target interventions to prevent family breakdown and support parents, skills development and nursery playgroups. Such early years interventions are all measures we know help develop socialisation and interactive skills.

926.

NIACRO critically believes that the family should remain the cornerstone of effective parenting for the child wherever possible, and we must all work to ensure we support parents and develop skills.

927.

NIACRO's focus today is on two groups of children whose lives are affected by the criminal justice system, either because they themselves have been through court proceedings or because their parents or carers have done so. It is our intention that the Commissioner has responsibility for all children's issues, including reserved matters. All children in Northern Ireland should come under the Commissioner's ambit.

928.

I now come to NIACRO's specific concerns. In relation to youth justice, we ask the Commissioner to review the appropriateness of the present age of criminal responsibility and the current practice of holding 17-year-olds in young offenders' centres. The creation of an approved appointed youth justice board would examine the move to a new site - the reduction of three sites to one. In that context, the Commissioner should examine the development of policy and practice to ensure that resources are allocated transparently. Agreeing the appropriate staffing mix, and how that would be delivered, would call for equality proofing of the decision to locate juvenile justice on a single site at Rathgael under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

929.

We want the Commissioner to examine the current usage of secure units to ensure there is no inappropriate seepage into any other parts of the system, particularly in mental health provision. In that respect, the Commissioner should evidence the consistency of decisions and prosecutions across Northern Ireland with specific reference to rural and urban settings. In the overall area, NIACRO confirms the value of the children's services planning process and the establishment in each area of a subgroup focusing on both children for whom offending and its consequences have been a significant feature of their lives and on those who are at risk of offending.

930.

In the report I previously submitted I focused on the children of prisoners and a report from a conference held in October 2000. That report looks at research evidence from England and Wales showing us that, where a father has been convicted, 63% of sons will themselves have gone through court proceedings by the age of 15. Where a father and mother have both been convicted, 93% of sons will have done so.

931.

The children of prisoners are a group little focused on - though the children will require later attention regarding their engagement with society - and it would be useful to focus resources on them as soon as it is possible for us to engage with the families. In our representations to you we wished to focus on issues in connection with reserved matters. The children in question are living in our communities, and we shall be concerned with them in future if we do not observe the early-warning systems available.

932.

Our overarching concern is to ensure that the Commissioner enhances and increases the effectiveness of all current services and is not seen as someone who will increase bureaucracy. We want the Commissioner to deal with four specific issues. The first is the co- ordination of ongoing transparent and open investigations - and that means open access to all children. The second is the need for the childproofing of legislative policy and practice. The third is ensuring that the process of planning services for children works for all of them. Finally, the Commissioner should listen to children and be visible to them.

933.

Ms Gildernew: Our consultation has been quite extensive, and the Committee wants to get its recommendations right. It was interesting that you all mentioned the fact that the Commissioner must be independent. It has been a common theme today that responsibility for children should be within his remit. Do you see any difficulty with the care of all children being under that remit - including those children in the juvenile justice system? As a Committee member, I wish to see a Commissioner in a post which is properly resourced and which deals with all children. Do you feel we shall be able to achieve that? What must we do to ensure we can?

934.

Mrs Cunningham: We hope we shall have no difficulty in achieving that. Our anxiety is due to the initial experiences of the Children's Commissioner in Wales. The Commissioner had a limited remit and powers, and while we welcome the fact that the remit has now been extended to include children who are the subject of reserved matters, the duties and powers in relation to those children are really quite different and significantly reduced. As a children's voluntary sector, we struggle with the idea of a Commissioner who would not have all the duties and powers necessary to provide the same equitable level of commitment to our most vulnerable children as he would provide to the others.

935.

Ms Lyner: That is a useful point. From evidence we have we are able to say that about 300 children were admitted to the juvenile justice system last year. If reserved powers in relation to children within the estate - and also children on probation - came under the remit of the Commissioner, I do not feel, given the size of the population, that the numbers would be significant. It would be significant, however, if such a small population were isolated from the rest of the children under the Commissioner's remit. Children in the community, the youth service and schools would be under his remit, and if they went into one system you would not be concerned about them, but about those outside his remit. Our view is that the numbers would not actually test the system overall; the real test would be why we should exclude such a small number of children from the Commissioner's remit.

936.

Ms Gildernew: Did the limitations on powers experienced by the Welsh Commissioner mean he was not able to carry out his functions properly? Was it a waste of time having a Commissioner who could only carry out half his work?

937.

Mrs Cunningham: The Welsh Commissioner was only appointed on 1 March. Therefore the institution is still in the early days. Our colleagues in Wales working in the children's sector anticipate that it will present difficulties. Some children are in homes because of care proceedings and some because of justice proceedings, and the Commissioner would have a very different remit in relation to each of those groups in the same unit. At some stage in the future, that must present very significant challenges.

938.

Dr Pinkerton: It is not an issue of whether it would be good to have a Commissioner with the ability to carry out a quarter or half of their workload or all of it. We cannot stress the historic opportunity enough.

939.

Ms Lewsley: The important thing is that we ensure the Commissioner's powers are as wide as possible, though he may never use them. It is better that the Commissioner be given too many powers at the outset rather that too few.

940.

We discussed the guardian ad litem system last week, and people were concerned that, though we gave the Commissioner a remit, he might be restricted. If we decide that part of the remit will be to represent children in court, the Commissioner might become bogged down and not be able to do anything else; there must be a happy medium.

941.

You mentioned children's rights in some of your opening statements. How aware of their rights are children or the people who care for them? How big do you think the Commissioner's role in that area should be? The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child has been mentioned, and it has been suggested that the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 should be used as guidance for the Commissioner.

942.

Mr McCrea: As someone who has looked after young people, I should like to make some remarks. The report 'Advocacy for Children and Young People' was produced in 1995. It looked particularly at children's rights and how they could be promoted. It set out a range of initiatives for developing advocacy services. I link advocacy with children's rights, and the role of the Commissioner might be able to help promote that. That might be done by undertaking education initiatives or by encouraging the boards to take action. I am not aware of any children's rights officers in the social services sector. I cannot speak for the justice system. The area has not been developed, and we know from our experience with young people in care that they do not have a good understanding of their advocacy rights.

943.

Mrs Lewis: I should like to echo that. We know from enquiries we receive from carers, who will telephone us on behalf a child, that they do not know their rights. For example, many children in care have special educational needs, but that area is a minefield to negotiate. Care can be seen as an opportunity to repair some of the damage done to the children. However, it is still very difficult for them to know their rights - what they can expect and what they will get. The Commissioner would have a valuable role in overseeing that area. He would not necessarily take action but should look into the issue. It is important that such work be carried out independently of the childcare system.

944.

Ms Lyner: The same issue is reflected in the justice system. We are involved in running an independent representation project for young people aiming to raise certain areas of concern for them. The issues they raise concern them in their daily lives. It would be appropriate for the Commissioner to take on board issues about broader rights and access to more general services.

945.

Dr Pinkerton: With regard to the awareness of rights, someone made the point that the Commissioner must be able to engage with children. Anyone who is a parent or has dealt with other people's children will be very aware of how important it is to children that things are fair. Children have a very keen sense of what is fair and unfair, and that is the rights language appropriate in that context. That can be developed into the more administrative and legalistic rights that we increasingly find ourselves dealing with every day.

946.

Mrs Courtney: We met a group of young people in Derry when the Committee was collecting evidence. They were very forthright, but it was obvious that they had very little knowledge of their rights, and that is something all bodies must take on board, regardless of whether a Commissioner is appointed. Some of the young people we spoke to were aged 22, so they are going through life without knowing their rights.

947.

I wish to discuss fostering, the main service provided by the trust to meet the needs of children being looked after. Should the remit of the Children's Commissioner be extended to cover groups such as foster parents?

948.

Mrs Lewis: As I said, it is the balance that counts. Sometimes when we think about children's rights we think of children referring directly to themselves or talking to people. Sometimes that will be the case, but very often access in ensuring children's rights will be via carers. I feel the Commissioner should have a role with foster carers and other parents to talk about rights and responsibilities, finding a balance between the two.

949.

Dr Pinkerton's point about children wanting to know that things are fair very much applies to those in foster care, who often feel that they have had an unfair deal. Sometimes they are not able to make direct representations, and that is where carers and other advocates are important.

950.

Mrs Courtney: Should the Commissioner have a role in talking directly to the foster parents involved if he feels the child is unhappy?

951.

Mrs Lewis: Yes. I feel there should be a direct role. I know that in an earlier submission Child Care Northern Ireland spoke about the Commissioner having an opportunity to go in unannounced to places where children are in care. We have discussed that with some of our carers, and I feel it should happen, but the Commissioner would need to balance that with the fact that foster care is a home activity. It is carried out in people's own dwellings, making it slightly different from residential care. It would need to be done with a certain amount of discretion, but there should be an opportunity to scrutinise what happens in fostering as well as in residential care or other secure accommodation.

952.

The Chairperson: If the Commissioner were prepared to do that, there could be an infringement of human rights.

953.

Mrs Lewis: That is exactly it. I feel it is one of the balancing acts, and I have tried to draw that out. It is a balance of the rights of children in care and those of foster carers and their families, including their birth children. It is not as simplistic as it seems on the surface.

954.

Mrs Cunningham: It would be a waste of the Commissioner's time if he duplicated existing inspection and registration activities, so it would only be in exceptional circumstances. As we said in earlier submissions, we hope the Commissioner would use whatever statutory resources are available in the first instance, only intervening in exceptional circumstances when those have failed children.

955.

Ms Lyner: The point about duplication is valid. We need a Commissioner responsible for the co-ordination of transparent and open investigation. I assume that the Commissioner would know about all investigations going on in relation to childcare issues. Even if one or two had similar themes that could be connected, that is not practice at the moment, which is wasteful. It is an opportunity to maximise the lessons from investigations to ensure they work well concurrently.

956.

Mr McCrea: Perhaps I might add that the issue of awareness is that the Commissioner and we must use the channels to which children and young people have access. That should be how we do it. Some of that could be done through foster carers, television and other media.

957.

Mrs Bell: Welcome. You have touched on the point I wished to bring up. I have a general and a more specific point. You all mentioned the Commissioner's independence and how he must co-ordinate matters to avoid duplication. If possible, he must oversee work and ensure that there is collaboration. The one thing that we have found in these consultation exercises is that there is a danger that we shall make the person do everything.

958.

If he is to be effective, we must be very careful it does not happen. There must therefore be somewhere we work together. Everyone acknowledges there has been such a lack of co-ordination and joined-up government that children have been harmed. To what extent should that be part of the Commissioner's remit? Is it an umbrella position to oversee, or does the Commissioner get involved in making or directing policy? It is a big question.

959.

The second question is more specific and dearer to my heart, and I must declare an interest. I am a member of the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, and I have also worked with prisoners' children for some years. I would be particularly interested, for I know about their situation on the ground.

960.

The report we heard about stressed positive factors that can reduce the likelihood of offending, such as providing lessons in developing the support of the families and children of prisoners. I myself have come across that. If they are dealt with properly there is less risk. How big a role should the Commissioner play in that?

961.

Mrs Cunningham: You are correct in that there is a real risk that we - and perhaps more especially Government Departments and the Assembly - might see the Commissioner as solving all our problems in relation to providing services for all children. If that is the case, we are setting the person up to fail from the word go.

962.

We certainly would not see the Commissioner as in any way replacing the Assembly's responsibility regarding all Northern Ireland's children. When the First Minister made the announcement in principle to establish a Commissioner for Children, we very much welcomed the fact that it was part of a much wider children's strategy. We would not see the development of that strategy as the responsibility of the Commissioner but of the Assembly, and our sector would very much welcome the opportunity to do anything it could to assist in that process.

963.

Were an integrated strategy developed to which Government Departments signed up, the Commissioner would have a role in holding Government Departments and - with respect - the Assembly responsible for ensuring it actually cascaded down to make a difference to children's lives on the ground.

964.

Mrs E Bell: That would be our job.

965.

Ms Lyner: I raised the issue of the conviction rate and what happens to the children of individuals who have been through the criminal justice process. I am identifying for you the fact that, if we do not intervene in the lives of children of prisoners, we are likely to meet those children in the system at a later stage.

966.

We must first try to get that message out so there is recognition of the vulnerability of the client group, afterwards trying to persuade those in the children's services' planning process and those in a position to deliver services that it is a priority group. We have had great difficulty getting that message across. We hope that the document and our work with the Committee will spread that point.

967.

We are not asking for unique or dedicated services at this stage. We ask for recognition that the client group is unique. It must be given due access to services and priority within service provision, and the Commissioner could play a role on that. We are making a case for only one client group. Others will make a case for other groups, but the group is forgotten in our society at the moment, and as a consequence of the research we know they will become disadvantaged in later life. We should be putting resources into intervention and prevention at an early stage, something I see as a critical role for the Commissioner.

968.

Mr Shannon: I apologise for not getting the opportunity to hear all of your presentation. I have one or two questions specific to foster care. First I shall make a statement: I am a great believer that the family is a core part of any stable relationship in society. One issue concerns the National Foster Care Association's quite dramatic and worrying figures for children in UK public care. I do not know how specific they are to Northern Ireland. I believe that many foster parents who care for children do a grand job; those whom I know certainly do so, and I pay credit to them. Children from that type of relationship have much to contribute to society, something I am not sure the figures really reflect. How do you see the role of the Children's Commissioner in helping to address the figures?

969.

I have a specific question about the role of the Children's Commissioner in helping those children who have been in foster homes for a number of years and are then returned to their natural parents. Some of my discussions with foster parents have shown that they can find it difficult to return a child to his natural parents after five - or in some cases 10 - years of fostering, when a relationship has been built between a child and the foster parent. That is not specific to every case; is it always right to return a child to his natural parents when the natural parents may not be ready to get the child back? Do you see a role for the Children's Commissioner in dealing with that?

970.

Mrs Lewis: You acknowledged the figures we supplied, and they are indeed dramatic and - I would also add - almost depressing; when children are removed from their birth parents, does the state do any better? Those are English figures, but we have no doubt that there is not much difference in the situation in Northern Ireland. Children who are removed from their parents and come in to public care - for a host of reasons which would take too long to explain - have vulnerabilities and difficulties. Sometimes we do a good job, and both foster parents and residential care do a good job with some of those children; unfortunately we fail others.

971.

One of the Commissioner's roles would be to provide oversight on that and ask the boards, trusts and Department how well they were doing and what else they could do. Additional resources must be made available. We know how difficult it is to get specialised services such as psychiatry, psychological help and additional educational supports in Northern Ireland for children with difficulties - and other submissions made to the Health Committee have confirmed that. The Commissioner could ask searching questions about those things, not get involved directly, but have a "helicopter view" and say what is happening, for certain foster care issues are also issues for parents, other carers and children in the community.

972.

You referred to children returning to birth parents. Most of you will know that, while adoption involves a permanent replacement family, children can go in and out of foster care. Indeed, quite a number of children return home after a brief period in foster care, although increasing numbers are staying anything up to five, 10 or 15 years with foster carers. A balance must be struck on how you can care for a child, after which he returns home. In some situations the best solution for the child is to return home, but on other occasions the best solution may well be that the child remains with foster carers, and that may also be his wish.

973.

The Children's Commissioner could have a specific role, perhaps in a particular case, where foster carers or the child did not wish the return to the birth parents and were having difficulties finding their way through the system. The answer is that it very much depends on circumstances; it is certainly a difficult issue.

974.

Dr Pinkerton: On the point about success, through working with young people leaving care we are conscious of how extraordinarily well they do. There is a tendency for our organisation and other people to present young people as victims or villains. As we said in our written submission, we feel there is a role for the Commissioner in celebrating the progress being made, the competence the children have and the success stories coming out of foster care. It is important we do not lose sight of that aspect of the Commissioner's role.

975.

Mr McMenamin: I shall start by saying that I agree that the Commissioner should have a wide remit. The figures mentioned by Mr Shannon are most alarming. Society has without doubt failed these children - and also their parents, when you consider that the generation of 16- to 24-year-olds has evolved from relationships in the 1970s. We should have a programme for young parents too, for ultimately we must get to the core of the problem. In essence, the problem is coming from the parents. Should the remit of the Children's Commissioner extend beyond children to cover such groups as foster parents?

976.

Mrs Cunningham: Our view is that the Children's Commissioner should focus exclusively on children as defined in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, namely, all those under the age of 18. We hope part of their remit would be the promotion of a culture of children's rights and a strong sense of fairness. Many of the people who advocate on behalf of children to try to ensure they are treated fairly in the first instance are their parents. There are obviously connections between parents and the Commissioner, and it would be important that the Commissioner remains in contact with parents. We believe the family is the cornerstone of every child's life. With regard to representing foster carers or parents, our view is that the Commissioner's role should be specifically dedicated to children.

977.

Mr McCrea: When we talk about young people and parents, one in five young women coming out of care aged 16 to 18 will be pregnant within six months - an alarming statistic. When we talk about parents and children we mean the same age group; there is an alarming number of teenage pregnancies, so in a way we are talking about both.

978.

Ms Lyner: With regard to young offenders and those under the age of 21 given community sentences, 71% will have fathered one child and 42% will have fathered two or more. We are talking about young people with children. By the age of 23, 62% of those young men will have lost contact with their offspring.

979.

Mr K Robinson: I shall be brief, for Mr Shannon touched the core of what I wanted to say. Returning to the figures, which are very depressing, when you talk about children being in public care, is that residential care, foster care or an amalgam?

980.

Mrs Cunningham: An amalgam, plus care in the home.

981.

Mr K Robinson: That makes it even more depressing. Ms Lyner mentioned perhaps moving the age of responsibility upwards. There is a very strong body of opinion - and I heard this in one of the estates in my constituency this morning - that it should go downwards. In fact, some would take it right down to birth if they could.

982.

Is there a new and growing gap in understanding between the older and younger generations? Is society recreating much of the difficulty resulting in a class of children almost destined to fail? They are destined to educational and social failure, and they will recreate it in another generation. How would your organisations seek to break that web and break that cycle? How would the Commissioner intervene?

983.

I was a little concerned about the foster carer being monitored in their own home, with more rights identified for the children. I am concerned that the loving parents who wish to open their homes to a child in need would look at the situation and say that the game is not worth the candle - they might feel there is too much officialdom or too much intrusion on their own families. It is very hard to get the correct balance between the rights of the birth child and those of the foster child; they might all lose in that situation. How could the Commissioner proactively and constructively help in those situations? I shall return to the age of responsibility later if I may.

984.

Ms Lyner: The criminal age of responsibility is 10, and there is a suggestion that it should be 14. NIACRO is concerned with what works best. There is a concern that people are not behaving as they should. We must decide the best method of intervention for those young people. Is it criminalising them at the age of 10 and putting them into processes that fail to make their behaviour positive? We have a range of other intervention methods that apply to children aged up to 14. We are concerned with what works. We wish to reach a situation where active members of society put in positive messages as opposed to -

985.

Mr K Robinson: Children know their rights. They know a policeman or a teacher in the playground cannot touch them. As a result, the structures of society are breaking down earlier and earlier, and more people are entering that category where we do not wish them. Those concerns are being expressed to me. Those children know they are doing wrong, yet authority figures of the past have had to tiptoe back to such an extent that they do even greater wrong until there is no option for them but to face the criminal justice system. Could many of those children not be cut out of the system at an earlier stage if the age of responsibility were reduced?

986.

Ms Lyner: We might drag them into the system if we did that.

987.

Mr K Robinson: If there were mechanisms other than the criminal justice -

988.

Ms Lyner: We should use the other mechanisms. We should have the resources to intervene with those young people. They can be identified, but we cannot get the resourcing or the networks to intervene. That is what matters. The age is important, but it is critical we focus on the individual.

989.

Mr K Robinson: We must revisit that issue and keep them out of the criminal justice system as much as possible. However, there must be responsibility and very young children, amongst their rights, will have that.

990.

Mrs Cunningham: You are correct to mention children who are destined to fail. Each of our organisations knows that there are children born in Northern Ireland who are destined to fail. It is a sad indictment of our society, and that is why we are saying that the Commissioner, together with the strategy, should be addressing the needs of all Northern Ireland's children. We should have a vision of what they should achieve in education and in standards of health and hope that they make a positive contribution to society.

991.

For some children to do that, they will need additional support from birth. If we are able to obtain the resources - and it would mean freeing them - there is less likelihood that those young children would be destined to fail.

992.

Children in the nought to three age group are disadvantaged in the most deprived areas of Northern Ireland, even with regard to their readiness for school.

993.

If we already know at ages nought to three that those children are not ready for school, they must be becoming disenfranchised from it at a very early stage. You are right that we have reports of children excluded from nursery school. Resources must be put in to support parents when children are aged nought to three. The challenge of parenting is considerable for us all.

994.

Mr K Robinson: I wish to pick up the point about resources. You quoted some statistics; is there an inference that we would get better value for money from foster care rather than formalised residential care?

995.

I would not feel competent to comment on that. You are examining the care continuum in relation to children in public care. Foster care is appropriate for some children and residential care for others.

996.

Mrs Lewis: I wish to pick up on that. Even we in NIFCA say that one needs a variety of placements to meet children's needs. We do not have that at the moment. For children who cannot live at home, we must have a variety of options. Sadly, no matter what supports and so on there are, there will always be some children who cannot live with their birth parents for a variety of reasons. For some children, residential care will be the preferred option, but for the vast majority it will continue to be a family placement, whether by adoption or by foster care.

997.

I want to pick up on the point about too much officialdom, which is a real issue. We are talking about children being placed in people's homes, for foster care is home-based. The changes in legislation with the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 and standards in foster care have added to the burden for carers in having to complete paperwork and attend reviews much more often than in the past. While they have all been valuable pieces of legislation - we certainly should not want to go back on those - a balance must be struck. I should not like to see the Children's Commissioner being yet another official fiefdom or bureaucracy. That is why we have urged that the role of the Children's Commissioner should be about oversight, having a "helicopter view" of services and intervening only where all other mechanisms have failed. Others may also have made that point.

998.

The Chairperson: Do you still have a shortage of foster carers?

999.

Mrs Lewis: There is still a huge shortage. There is a shortage in provision for children in public care, in foster care and residential care. We do not have choices, and some carers do too much. That almost becomes an abuse of their rights and those of their children. We must have additional resources and make sure they are properly targeted.

1000.

Dr Pinkerton: I wish to take that "helicopter view" further and apply it to your question on research and information. All our organisations are increasingly recognising the impact that good research and information can have. We are conscious that, when we are examining leaving care, we only see a part of the whole. You can have a very distorted picture. It is a classic "cannot see the woods for the trees" situation. It is important that someone sees what the various parts look like together and that the Commissioner has an overview of all children.

1001.

There is an argument about whether children are more estranged from adults and things are falling apart in front of us compared to 20, 30 or 40 years ago. The Commissioner has a role to help us in that debate and, at a specific level, say that our work on care-leavers and the lack of educational gains they are making must be seen in the wider context of other educational disadvantage.

1002.

Mr Beggs: Thank you for coming today. I welcome your view that the Commissioner should have an oversight role. Occasionally, some people thought that the Commissioner should be involved in everything. You are taking a very realistic approach, and I am supportive. The figures you have given us show the importance of intervening at an early stage so we do not have the lower educational attainment shown here and the subsequent increased risk of antisocial activity.

1003.

Returning to the figures, are statistics available, for instance, on the split between foster and residential care? Do you feel it would be for a Commissioner to identify whether the family-home sector of foster care has been more successful than the formal structure of a state institution? Are such statistics already available, or are those the sorts of statistics that must be drawn out since a system to identify that need is currently missing?

1004.

On the oversight role of the Commissioner, you said that he should be identifying where there are failings, drawing attention to them, for example, in the social work or the education system. Should the role of the Commissioner also include being consulted on, and having an input to, our education and health systems in relation not only to the rights of children but also the responsibilities of their parents and them, which should be taught alongside? I feel that is a failing in the current system. The responsibility aspects should be promoted as being equally important. I should welcome your comments.

1005.

Dr Pinkerton: Very little information is available. However, that is precisely the role of the Commissioner - to spot where there are absences. For example, if he were sitting down to do an annual report, the missing areas would be easily identifiable. It would be very helpful to have them recognised. It would also be helpful if the Commissioner were to have the capacity to undertake specific pieces of work. The problem is that you do not want him to get bogged down in that or any other area.

1006.

Mr Beggs: Do you see the role as simply being to identify the need for more research in a particular area? The Commissioner could then pass it on to the education system or to the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency. When the information came back, action could be considered. Would that be the key central oversight role?

1007.

Mrs Cunningham: Yes, but I also feel the Commissioner would have a key role in ensuring that something practical came of that. We are quite good at the identification of research, information and services, but we struggle to learn the lessons from that information and put those lessons into practice.

1008.

Mr Beggs: How do you see the Commissioner ensuring that happens?

1009.

Mrs Cunningham: The UN Convention states that children have a right to education, for example. If there were children in the public- or in the home-care system not being afforded the opportunity to receive an education - even if it had to be outside the normal school system - the Commissioner would have a role in advising the education and library boards of their legal responsibilities. He should then ensure it happened.

1010.

Mr McCrea: You mentioned responsibilities. Perhaps I could give an example. On the care side, we must ensure that young people between the ages of 16 and 18 get the right sort of information to prepare them for leaving. That is a much younger age than that at which most of us would have had to consider such issues. They must be aware of their rights and entitlements to support and services. They must also know about the responsibilities involved with a tenancy, be it with the Housing Executive or another provider. We must empower young people by providing the skills they need for later life to enable them to cope on their own - or "interdependently", as we should prefer to put it. It is in that context that I see responsibility. The Commissioner must ensure the provision of information not only on rights, entitlements and what is fair, but also on the responsibilities that go with these more adult activities.

1011.

Mrs Lewis: You were wondering about the "knit up" between education and social services. There is already a process - others have referred to the children's services planning that goes on in the boards - but those of us who sit on the various children's services planning groups realise there can sometimes be gaps among the trusts, the boards and the Department. We welcome the children's strategy, and we look forward to hearing what it has to say. I feel the Children's Commissioner could have a specific role in calling for reports and asking searching questions. Indeed, we ask such questions ourselves. If there is co-operation between the health and social services, why is it sometimes still so difficult to get children into either residential or foster care and provide them with the type of educational provision they need. We are grappling with those problems on the ground, but there must be someone who can ask the questions and get answers.

1012.

Mr Gibson: Thank you very much for the preparation of these documents. I have listened very carefully to what you have said this afternoon. Your documents state that children in foster care are 10 times more likely to fail, 10 times more likely to attend specialist schools, and four times less likely to enter further education. They are 16 times more likely to become homeless, 50 times more likely to be sent to prison and 88 times more likely to be drug users.

1013.

You are telling us that we are failing the system and have said that a variety of provisions is needed but is not available. It was asked what works. We examined the rate of convictions - 63% and 93% respectively. In advocating a Commissioner for Children, you are really asking for more of the same, for the present system is not working.

1014.

There is a lack of co-operation between existing Departments, yet we are saying we need a Commissioner for Children. Does that mean that the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 is not working well? What is the dilemma? Are you really saying to us that the only hope we have is a Commissioner for Children?

1015.

Mrs Cunningham: The detail you have identified is actually the reason why we advocate a Commissioner for Children. There is the legislation, and everyone in this room is very supportive of the Order, which is at the centre of all our planning.

1016.

Mr Gibson: Perhaps I might reverse that question. Where is the evidence elsewhere in the world that a Commissioner for Children has really improved the lot of children?

1017.

Mrs Cunningham: There is evidence from elsewhere. The Committee will hear the evidence from the Norwegian commission. It has the first Children's Commissioner, established in 1982, and is the longest running office. It has taken other countries a while to catch up, but it is too early at this stage to say what the impact of the Welsh Commissioner and others will be.

1018.

Mr Gibson: I shall question that. I have looked at the Norwegian figures, and I would not go around making too many assertions about their success.

1019.

Mrs Cunningham: You are absolutely right. The Children's Commissioner alone is not going to resolve all the challenges that our society faces in relation to failing children.

1020.

Mr Gibson: Have we honestly thought about the real point of a Commissioner for Children? Look at the legislation. Every Department reshuffled its whole thinking to try to implement the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. Let us look at what we are attempting. There is almost an upheaval of desperation. Are we merely clutching at straws?

1021.

Mrs Cunningham: That is an extremely valid question, for we can get tied up in the notion of the "emperor's new clothes" when we move forward thinking it is a wonderful thing. In response to your question, however, we have thought it through.

1022.

Our children's sector has been working on a Commissioner for Children for about two years, so we have thought it through properly. We are working operationally, day to day, with children whom the current system is failing - despite the legislation. A number of us sit on the all-party group. We had a presentation this morning from the Western Children and Young People's Committee and the Southern Children and Young People's Committee about an integrated strategic planning framework already in place - multi-agency and multidisciplinary in each of the four board areas. Above that, it is not working.

1023.

Mr Gibson: I remember taking evidence in 1997 in the Northern Ireland Forum, and I heard exactly the same story about a multi-agency approach. We are now four years on - surely we are not still beating the same drum?

1024.

Dr Pinkerton: It is not the final solution, and everyone has made that clear. It is a critical component within the system, continuing to address issues we are becoming clearer about. Let us face it - if it was straightforward and easy, we should have it sorted; it is not, and we all know that. It is an additional critical component and it will also be an expression of the advances we have been making. The Commissioner is not just about naming and blaming, though it has that element. It is also about claiming and celebrating the advances that have been made. Even the appointment of a Commissioner will be an indication of the distance we have moved and that which we are likely to move in the future. It is no accident that the Nordic countries, with their reputation for good childcare services, are the ones who had it first.

1025.

The Chairperson: Thank you all for your responses. You have brought us to the crux of what we need in a Commissioner for Children, for 90% of the Children's Commissioner's work will be involved with what you have been talking about today - and many of the children.

1026.

The figures you quoted are quite astonishing. What makes it more depressing is when you hear how many children are being born to children who end up in that system five or six years down the line. It is almost as if we are in a vicious circle, and we must break out to give the children a better opportunity in life. Jim Shannon was correct in stating the good work that foster carers have been doing. I know there is a great need for more foster carers. Perhaps, if we did have more good quality foster carers, the statistics would improve. As politicians we regularly get homeless people in our offices. Very often those young people have come from an unstable family background and end up in hostels, knocked from pillar to post. When they come out into society it is little wonder that they end up as statistics like those. I thank you all very much for your evidence.

1027.

Mrs Cunningham: Our colleague from VOYPIC has now joined us. She was to give evidence in this first session. Could you allow her to give evidence in the next?

1028.

Mr Gibson: I have been doing some research on this, but I should like to see comparative figures for the Scandinavian countries, other European countries and indeed other countries. Has there been any comparative study? I have got what I call "varnished research" from people who simply hail what they think good and debunk what they think bad. I am really looking for statistical proof and a more objective analysis of what works in various places. The reason I ask this is that I am getting suspicious of the alleged claims of Scandinavia, having come across other research. If someone knows of some research, I should welcome that.

1029.

Mrs Cunningham: I am sure you will take the opportunity to ask the Norwegian ombudsman specifically about life chances. We shall endeavour to come back to you with some unvarnished information.

Wednesday 2 May 2001

Mr Poots(Chairperson) Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Ms K Collins ) VOYPIC
Ms G Donnelly ) EXTERN
Mrs P Jaffa OBE ) Parents' Advice Centre
Ms M Cavanagh ) Gingerbread
Mrs M Cunningham ) Child Care Northern Ireland

1030.

The Chairperson: I welcome you on behalf of the Committee and ask you to introduce yourselves. We will ask questions when we have heard your presentations.

1031.

Mrs Cunningham: Gemma Donnelly is from EXTERN, which is an organisation that deals with offenders. She is going to focus on juvenile justice. Pip Jaffa is chief executive of the Parents' Advice Centre and will address some issues in relation to parents. Kelly Collins is from Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC). She will look specifically at care from a young person's perspective. Marie Cavanagh is director of Gingerbread, the organisation for lone parents.

1032.

Ms Donnelly: EXTERN's work is primarily concerned with the reduction of social exclusion. We aim to achieve this through working directly with and for marginalised and excluded people - children and adults alike. We are a service provider, and the views that I project today are from that perspective. We are currently delivering several preventative community-based programmes to children, adolescents, adults and communities.

1033.

EXTERN is sensitive to the fact that juvenile crime and anti-social behaviour are of major public concern. Our aim is to make the community safer, to reduce the incidence of criminal and anti-social behaviour by young people, to enhance victim empathy and to acknowledge and support community self-help initiatives and statutory responses.

1034.

We support the view presented by the 'Putting Children First' project that the Commissioner must remain independent of Government but maintain close and effective working relationships with all Government Departments.

1035.

We have two general main points. First, children are children first and offenders second. Secondly, children who offend do not do so in isolation. There is a clear recognition that anti-social behaviour among young people owes more to a serious lack of social amenities and social forums, other than street corners. This is widely accepted. Therefore, given that the levels of anti-social behaviour have not decreased and that with the introduction of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 more young people were diverted into community and voluntary based provision, EXTERN believes that the Commissioner for Children must also take account of the complexities of relevant social, educational and cultural issues. We believe that the Commissioner should have a role in strategic planning and work closely with Children's Services Planning groups across Northern Ireland. The Commissioner's remit should include an overarching, Province-wide audit of the current community-based preventative initiatives and the statutory responses to juvenile offending. The audit should be carried out with the aim of identifying and assessing each response, with the emphasis on assessment. It should identify where services are duplicated, where there are gaps in services, where we might be missing something crucial and gaps in our knowledge about the young people who need services but who have fallen through the net of the voluntary and statutory agencies.

1036.

Following the audit, the role of the Children's Commissioner should be to champion the establishment of a multi-agency, multi-disciplinary approach to addressing issues for young offenders and the community. The audit will also enable the Commissioner to lobby for funds for under-resourced community-based initiatives such as alternative education projects, mentoring projects and support services and statutory agencies.

1037.

EXTERN believes that, based on the proven success of working in partnership with statutory agencies in the provision of such community-based programmes, the Children's Commissioner should be at the forefront of promoting a co-ordinated response. The Commissioner should act as an advisor to the Government in the strategic planning of children's services Province-wide.

1038.

We welcome the view expressed by the Northern Ireland Office in the inquiry into residential and secure accommodation for children that a distinct, specialised, residential provision is needed to meet the needs of those young people who, until the introduction of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998, would have been in custody but who are now accommodated in care settings and in the community. EXTERN supports the view that this is resulting in social services and voluntary agencies like ourselves coming under increasing pressure to stretch already limited resources.

1039.

In research carried out late last year, which examined the profile of young people using our services, we established that 30% of the young people who are referred to our youth support and emergency time-out programmes had been referred specifically for offending behaviour. It is also significant that those young people collectively used 58% of the services.

1040.

EXTERN, in partnership with the Northern Health and Social Services Board, has sought to implement the recommendations in the Assembly report to address this issue. We have recently opened a specialised unit in Newtownabbey, the Linden Services for Children. A Children's Commissioner should have a role in advising and lobbying the Government on strategic financial planning and ring-fencing moneys to ensure that the views expressed in the Assembly report are brought to fruition throughout Northern Ireland and not just in Newtownabbey.

1041.

We also think that a Children's Commissioner should be the driving force behind commissioning research into effective forms of practice to reduce the factors that lead to offending behaviour and criminal activity. When research indicates positive outcomes, the Commissioner's role should be to lobby Government support for introducing and resourcing those models.

1042.

In the international arena, the research evidence of the models used in the "Wrap-around" programme in the United States and the multi-systemic therapeutic approach used in Norway has prompted EXTERN to reproduce the models for the first time in Northern Ireland, in the Linden Services in Newtownabbey.

1043.

The Children's Commissioner should have a monitoring and advocacy role. EXTERN believes that there is a group of young people who have been labelled offenders, but whose offences are a direct result of abuse, neglect, ill health or inappropriate care placements. For example, child prostitutes, children suffering from attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) or other forms of behavioural disorders, children who are homeless and children who are placed into large residential units who are simply emotionally immature and unable to cope in such a setting.

1044.

The Commissioner should commission a Province- wide audit to ascertain the numbers in this group and the nature of their circumstances. The Commissioner should be instrumental in spearheading a hearts and minds campaign in both the Government and public perceptions to redefine the label for this group of children and influence the Government to provide alternative means of addressing the issues.

1045.

Finally, a Children's Commissioner should have the remit of monitoring and evaluating the effectiveness of any work that is being done with young people in custody. To this end EXTERN would support the view that the Commissioner should have direct unannounced access to young people in detention.

1046.

Mrs Jaffa: The Parents' Advice Centre has been operating in Northern Ireland since 1979, and we deliver support and guidance for parents throughout the Province through a helpline and an appointment system. In addition to the core work, we have three projects: the parenting forum, which is a network of parents' support in Northern Ireland; the men's project which is an innovative project to look at what is happening to men; and a parenting education programme, which does just that.

1047.

While recognising that the primary function of the Commissioner is to be an independent champion for children, the Parents' Advice Centre (PAC) emphasises the importance of establishing an holistic approach towards children's issues.

1048.

The welfare of children is inextricably linked to the parenting and care that the child receives. It is important to emphasise that families are now under more strain than ever. Parenting needs a higher profile if we are to support families effectively and give children the best chance of reaching their potential. We strongly feel that monitoring, investigating and advocacy on behalf of children by the Commissioner should have a parent dimension to it. When problems arise recurrent practice shows that responses to a child's difficulties are made in a pigeonhole way. While it seems that some services work in collaboration, parents continue to refer to experiences which show that integrated working is not universally in operation. At best this leaves parents confused; at other times it leaves them angry and frustrated. Inevitably this impacts adversely on the child.

1049.

A previous reference was made to children who are destined to fail. There are repeated examples of children who are in difficulties being seen at an early stage by one profession, unit or service and then reappearing at another service with increased difficulties a few years later. They then appear in the juvenile justice system in their teenage years. Having integrated services is fundamental.

1050.

Currently the range of services which deliver parenting support is extremely limited and choice and accessibility are restricted. Much of the support work and parenting programmes are provided by the voluntary and community sector, and their ability to sustain services is entirely dependent on funding. The uncertainties of finance make planning, even in the short term, problematic. Parenting programmes are limited with a small range of choice, and they are almost exclusive to mothers. There are a couple of programmes which are studying a father's role. There is only anecdotal evidence about how to engage with fathers. There is no statutory structure geared to work with them as parents.

1051.

This is a huge area which needs to be addressed even on an equality basis. If we are to make meaningful improvements to children's lives, models of good practice, of which there are many, should be available to all parents to enable them to enhance their skills and effectiveness. There is plenty of evidence to show that parents who feel more confident about their parenting and have increased self-esteem are inevitably able to function better and give children a better family life. The issues facing parents are very plain to see. Parents would like services to help them with poverty, and there is a lack of support for child management, discipline, separation and divorce. Help is not available to meet the needs of all parents. There is lack of affordable child care and a lack of information about support services. Even in small communities there is no system to enable parents to find out what services are available to them.

1052.

Parents are unclear about processes and systems. If anything ever marginalised parents, it is the difficulty of their knowing what to expect, for example, at a case conference. That disempowers and deskills them and that is unproductive when trying to sustain and promote family life.

1053.

There is definitely a lack of recognition of the importance of the parents' role. They feel unable to influence the system which affects schools. Some work is being done in child care partnerships on parent representation, but there needs to be a recognition of need for training and support for parents if they are to influence the services which should be available to families.

1054.

There is a myriad of examples of parents who feel that they are not being given their place when it comes to authority figures and personnel, particularly in health and education. These key issues which affect parents adversely influence the children. A Commissioner could make a difference by adhering to the principle that parents are an integral part of children's upbringing when he is carrying out any investigation or advocacy. We hope that the Commissioner will require structures to be in place to ensure that cross-cutting issues are addressed interdepartmentally and between children and adult services, which is lacking at present. The Commissioner could investigate how policies and practices can deliver integrated services for children. We also hope that he will be able to investigate the criteria that service providers use when allocating funds for intervention and prevention and the difficulties which arise from the lack of sustainable services, particularly in the voluntary and community sectors.

1055.

The balance between intervention and prevention needs to be redressed to ensure that we really make a difference. The level of support services available to all parents as a diverse group needs to be assessed and the expansion of services promoted where gaps have been identified. The boards and trusts need to take responsibility for ensuring that comprehensive and accessible information on the services is available to families.

1056.

Ms Collins: I represent Voices Of Young People In Care (VOYPIC). The charity is led by young people working throughout Northern Ireland with young people in care. The Committee has been given the figures for what is happening with young people in care and the possible outcomes. VOYPIC is an organisation which was set up and is led by young people in care. We provide ongoing support for them. We were established so that young people who have care experience, or who are in care, could have their voices heard. It was felt that these young people were not having their voices heard when other areas of the community were moving towards that way of working. The elderly and other groups were being asked what they thought of the services they were receiving rather than just having those services provided.

1057.

VOYPIC was set up in 1995 and is an expanding charity. We are a forum to which young people can come and be heard. The young people involved in VOYPIC are very excited about the prospect of a Children's Commissioner. They feel that the issues which will help young people in care will change the statistics. I heard earlier some concerns about the state of the child care. That is what we are hearing from young people too. The young people whom we are working with are part of these statistics. They have a lot to say about a Children's Commissioner. They have many thoughts and views on how they would like to work alongside him. They do not want to be told what to do. They want to work with the Commissioner and inform him. VOYPIC sees the young people with care experience as the experts. They have had the experience. They totally inform our organisation and are at its forefront.

1058.

Volunteers on our management committee lead the organisation. They tell us what is happening in care and feel strongly that they should have a role in working with the Commissioner. They promote advocacy for vulnerable young people who have been in care, making sure that their voices are heard. They want to ensure that young people's rights and welfare are protected and that any necessary investigations are independent.

1059.

Our steering group, and it is made up of young people directly involved, feels that a Children's Commissioner must be independent. He or she should be approachable and understand their problems. They want someone who will be independent of the Government but who will have the power to act.

1060.

There is a danger of seeing these young people merely as statistics. They may have been victims, but they do not want to remain victims. They join VOYPIC to do something about it and believe that a Children's Commissioner is a step in the right direction. In fact, the Children's Commissioner will find it difficult to get rid of them; they will be banging at the door.

1061.

Ms Cavanagh: My name is Marie Cavanagh, and I am director of Gingerbread. Gingerbread Northern Ireland is the lead agency working with lone parents and their children. Our organisation exists to promote and respect the integrity of the choices that lone parents make. We challenge injustice and advocate for lone parents and their children.

1062.

We are an independent organisation which belongs to lone parents. Gingerbread is made up solely of one-parent families who operate at every level in the organisation. We act as advocates for one-parent families, but we also operate a principle of self-help and mutual aid and organise appropriate user-led services.

1063.

What are one-parent families? They are parents with dependent children. They may be divorced, separated, widowed or single; they may have partners in long-term institutional care, including prison, or they may be single, pregnant women.

1064.

There are about 76,000 one-parent families in Northern Ireland with about 145,000 children. This is one in four children with families. Ninety-five percent of the families are headed by a mother; 5% are headed by a father; 30% are single parents; and 7% are under the age of 20, which means that some parents are children themselves. This matter in particular will be fundamental to the role of a Children's Commissioner.

1065.

Sixty-five percent of lone parents are either separated or divorced, and 5% are widowed. The figures show that the majority of lone parents are women. In Northern Ireland more lone parents are separated than divorced, and the figures show a considerable difference between Northern Ireland and Britain. This means that a common way out of lone parenthood, remarriage, is not available to lone parents here. Hence the children of one-parent families often remain in that state for a very long time. That is specific to Northern Ireland.

1066.

With no other significant adult in the family, children often find themselves undertaking a semi-caring role. Those children often look after younger siblings and, in some cases, become part of the decision-making process in the family - a position that they would not have until later in life if there were two parents. That has its advantages and disadvantages. In some instances it means that the children mature at an earlier age because of their responsibilities in the family, or in some instances it means that the pressure on the children is more significant than it should be at their age.

1067.

Following the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister's announcement about a Children's Commissioner, Gingerbread asked the young people in its organisation how they felt about it. I will outline some of the key issues, some of them in the words of the young people. Young people are forthright when they are asked for comments, and they are clear about what they want to say. Sometimes they are not clear, but they are usually forthright.

1068.

Young people are definite that the Commissioner should be independent and that he should not just be there to "rubber stamp" things. They see the role as something outside the Government, something that should be feeding in to the Government and not just "rubber stamping" what they say. They think that he should have experience of working with young people and not be somebody who just works in an office or is a civil servant. The Commissioner should know what is happening on the ground.

1069.

The children also think that the post should be filled through an independent process, that somebody should not just be picked for the position and that young people should be involved in choosing the person who will do the job. They feel very strongly about that.

1070.

They also think that he should be representative of children and young people. They want the position to be accessible and not just "somebody up there somewhere". They feel it important to have someone who will listen to what they have to say and do something about it. Also, questions and opportunities to feed in should take account of their time. All young people involved in the Gingerbread youth project are at school and that must be taken into account. They also do voluntary work in Gingerbread, and that has to fit in around their commitments to school, et cetera. They also want the Commissioner to have powers. The Commissioner for Children must have authority and power to investigate issues that are relevant to all children, not just children who have difficulties. He must also have the power to act on any findings.

1071.

Gingerbread's young people raised the issue of their rights, for example, in education. They want the Commissioner to be able to have an effect on that. They also mentioned their health rights and their rights to information on health. Very often they feel that they have not been heard. The children say that no matter what they say or where they say it, nobody takes any account of them. For example, schools just do what they want without listening to the pupils.

1072.

Young people in Gingerbread also say that the Commissioner must promote justice for children and young people. Gingerbread feels that children must have an effective voice in public and private law situations. For example, if a family relationship breaks down, the children are not heard or heard effectively.

1073.

One of the areas we have examined is the guardian ad litem system's, or some equivalent, being extended into private law. That would ensure that children were represented in cases of divorce and separation and were able to be heard. It is a fundamental belief of the young people of Gingerbread that the Commissioner should be there for all children, being particularly aware of those most in need or at risk of having their rights abused.

1074.

The young people talked about "kids without parents to speak for them" - young people in care who often feel they do not enjoy the same advantages as those with a parent to speak on their behalf, something presumably confirmed by their experience of those in that situation. The other area about which they are concerned is "kids who get into trouble" - children who need support after coming face to face with the juvenile justice system.

1075.

That is all I wish to say, apart from reiterating everyone's view that the Commissioner should have an overarching and overseeing role with teeth to act.

1076.

The Chairperson: We have heard that the Commissioner should be a champion, a whistleblower and a watchdog. For want of a better phrase, should the Commissioner also be a "headbanger"? Pip Jaffa referred to the problems identified when children come before one agency. A few years later, another agency will identify and examine a problem. Later the children appear before the justice system. Clearly agencies are examining issues without following them through or consulting sufficiently with the other bodies involved. Do we need a Commissioner who can get reports, identify the problems therein and tell the agencies what they must do and how they must operate and where they can find common ground?

1077.

Mrs Jaffa: There is a definite awareness of the importance of tracking progress and intervening early. The difficulty is that current practice does not yet reflect that. There have been repeated examples of children falling off the ends of various systems, and services such as health and education are aware of that. It would be too simplistic to say that they know about it and put it right, for the situation is much more complex.

1078.

For a start, we do not have accurate and detailed data about the children in question. It has been documented that one of the priorities of a Children's Commissioner should be to produce an annual report on the welfare of Northern Ireland's children. If accurate and realistic data from all the services were carefully collated and fed back, we should be better placed to make a good job of providing appropriate children's services rather than letting both them and their families fall through the net as at present.

1079.

The Chairperson: Would you conclude that the oft-used phrase "multi-agency approach" has not worked in practice?

1080.

Mrs Jaffa: That is a very sweeping generalisation. There are good examples of its working, but we do not see that everywhere. We must build on and share experience of good practice. Very often it is down to the personalities involved and personnel in place, who are absolutely committed to making it happen. It takes a great deal of energy, trust and sharing; it may take additional training. Services bound by different legislative requirements must have the mutual trust to work together for the good of the children. We must get that right; we know where we are going, but we have not yet got everything in place.

1081.

Mrs Cunningham: There are excellent examples of multi-agency work. The people involved are operational practitioners of good faith in all the services, statutory and voluntary, that are trying their best for the children. That sense of cohesion at departmental and Government level is missing, and it is difficult for practitioners to deliver a mult-agency agenda given the constraints of their own silos, whether they be health, social services, or education. I am aware of the presents difficulties, as I am involved in the planning process for children's services in three of the four board areas. We have found ourselves in a logjam in that while a lot of effort has gone into planning, we are at the stage where individual departmental agendas are making it difficult to deliver for children. The Commissioner would have limited capacity to do something about that on his or her own. However, the Commissioner could address those difficulties if an integrated children's strategy had been agreed by the Assembly.

1082.

Mr Gibson: I am unclear about what Ms Collins said. Rights might already be being denied by the lack of co-operation in our systems, and the old, almost dead country expression applies - "If you have a leaking roof, you do not hire someone to put a flag on the chimney. You repair the roof." Information to help children is there. Doctors have records, and statistics are issued monthly. It takes two years to get a psychologist to tend to a child. However, if I had 10 Commissioners in the morning, I could not get my hands on a psychologist. Multidisciplinary agencies are not working because of personalities - and in my business, I do not worry about personalities, I just change them - and you have made the point that nobody listens to those agencies. That means that a Commissioner should not be raised as a flag, because when things go wrong, the Commissioner carries the blame. We have to look honestly at our systems. I am concerned that a number of people work hard in the voluntary sector, but their work is being nullified, or almost side-tracked, because they have to take on the task that somebody else is failing to do. What could a Commissioner do to address that? His office and staff will cost £500,000, and funds for that will come out of other scarce resources.

1083.

Mrs Cunningham: You are right. You have raised a valid point, and we need to be sure that the Commissioner is the flag on the chimney that draws attention to the hole in the roof. A lot of statutory agencies and voluntary agencies were involved in the report 'Children Matter', identifying the gaps in the service and coming up with recommendations on how to fill those gaps. We identified the hole in the roof and the types of tiles needed to cover it. We know the people we need to repair the roof, but they are not doing it. Everybody signed up to the recommendations, but little has changed because of limited implementation. The role of the Commissioner would be to change that. Outside the Government somebody needs to say "Come on. You cannot have residential care without putting some money in place.".

1084.

There is not a single person in our sector or, indeed, in the statutory sector who has not signed up to Children Matter. Meanwhile, the young people who are involved with Voice Of Young People In Care, Ms Collins's organisation, are suffering in that system. Young people will have been very severely disadvantaged, and perhaps even abused, by a system whose problems and the solutions to them were identified four years ago. There has been no change.

1085.

Ms Collins: VOYPIC gets involved in children's matters. We consult young people who give clear views on problems and solutions. When that is drawn up as a document, they get excited about it and have faith in it. Young people think that residential care will change and shape up as a result.

1086.

If that does not happen, they will feel disappointed. They want a Children's Commissioner who they can ask why things have not been implemented and who will represent their views on how things are to change. We cannot involve young people and then not follow through on it.

1087.

Mr Gibson: Do we need a Children's Commissioner or a Children's Ombudsman?

1088.

Mrs Cunningham: The name does not really matter - in different countries, it is called different things. The role, responsibility, duties, powers and remit are important. " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." The most important thing is that the role addresses the issues that we have raised.

1089.

The Commissioner must have responsibility for all children and the clout to make a difference. If he does not make a difference, half a million pounds will be wasted. It is vital that the Commissioner or Ombudsman, whatever we decide to call the person or office, has responsibility for all children and the duties and powers necessary to enable him to make a difference.

1090.

Mr Beggs: Ms Donnelly identified poverty and a lack of facilities as two major causes of the problems. As someone who comes from a rural community and who knows many people who might be living in poverty, that is, to a certain extent, a complete oversimplification. Do you accept that there are many people who live in poverty and many people in rural communities with no facilities who do not have anti-social problems?

1091.

The root cause of any problem must be tackled. Should a Commissioner be able to go to the root cause of a problem rather than identify contributory factors and force all the statutory agencies along that line?

1092.

Several people have said that a Commissioner should have an advocacy role. Can you clarify the level of advocacy that the Commissioner should have to avoid getting drawn into details and missing the key role of overseeing and affecting policy and legislation? Under what circumstances should a Commissioner get involved in a detailed situation, if any? When would it be appropriate for a Commissioner to do that?

1093.

Ms Donnelly: It is an oversimplification to say that problems are caused by poverty. We are well aware that there are complex issues around young offenders. Sometimes it is about poverty; sometimes it is about other things. The role of a Commissioner, in some senses, would be to look at the causes of offending behaviour as well as at how to deal with it.

1094.

Mrs Cunningham: There is already a range of advocacy channels for a range of constituencies. One of the Commissioner's roles would be to direct children, young people and, perhaps, their parents to those existing channels. Part of the difficulty for people already working in the area is that they do not have the clout to make anything happen. If the existing channels were not successful and the children's and young persons' rights were continuing to be denied, the Commissioner would have a role then.

1095.

Mr K Robinson: Ms Donnelly, I would ask you about the EXTERN Organisation's approach. Will you explain to me the role of Linden Services for Children?

1096.

Ms Donnelly: It is a short-term residential unit in which we house a maximum of six to eight young people for up to 12 weeks. The unit has been set up to deal with and accommodate young people who have exhausted every avenue other than that of secure accommodation.

1097.

These young people bring a variety of problems with them, some specifically care issues, but the majority bring care and offending issues along. They are very damaged young people. Linden is set up to work in a multi-agency, multi-disciplinary fashion. Some people say that it does not work, but we are working that system at present. It would not work if it were not multi-disciplinary. We are working with the young people and their families. We have accommodation for families visiting so that the connection between a young person and his family is not lost. We have teachers, social and community workers and a multi-agency involvement.

1098.

Linden is the first of its type in Northern Ireland, based in Newtownabbey. We are using American research - what is called wrap-around programmes which use advocacy programmes, multi-systemic therapeutic input, which looks at every system involved in a child's life and pulls them together. That has happened because the Northern Health and Social Services Board appears to have decided to implement the recommendation in the Assembly's report on residential and secure accommodation for young people.

1099.

Mr K Robinson: Are we talking about children who have been damaged despite the safeguards in place to protect them and is Linden their last chance?

1100.

Ms Donnelly: These children are "high tariff" - a terrible label. Social services, juvenile justice agencies, child psychologists have all had an input but have not made a significant difference. It is only when all these agencies are pulled together to work for a child that we can achieve something.

1101.

Mr K Robinson: I am sorry to be so specific, but I can see the problem. That is at one end of the spectrum, and at the other end we have a very young, hyperactive child who is getting out of control, who comes from a nursery school or a school which is struggling to deal with, placate and educate him. We are building up a process of failure. Ms Collins made that clear when talking about the young people and children she is coping with. At each level we have identified successive, institutional failure. As you went on I could not decide whether the Commissioner should be Jim'll Fix It or Bob the Builder. We need now to have a structure in place under the Commissioner where we start to address yours and Mrs Jaffa's problems. I do not know what sort of person we are looking for - there is only one person in my mind who could fulfil those criteria. I had better not mention his name.

1102.

How do we get away from the diversity of structures and strategies and the multi-agency approaches and so forth; how do we ensure that a Commissioner can draw all those ideas together and make the fundamental change to these children's lives?

1103.

Mrs Cunningham: I do not think that that is the role of the Commissioner.

1104.

Mr K Robinson: You do not feel that?

1105.

Mrs Cunningham: Not at all. It is for the Government to devise a strategy for children in Northern Ireland that involves all the departments and all the elements that we have been talking about.

1106.

Mr K Robinson: You see the Commissioner only as an overseer to ensure fair play.

1107.

Mrs Cunningham: Absolutely.

1108.

Mr K Robinson: You talk about the Government doing this, but the Government is such an amorphous thing. It is like this Committee. We have 101 different views on things. How can the Government make a difference to those children?

1109.

Mrs Cunningham: Let me pick up on the point that you made about children being destined to fail. There needs to be a strategy for children. We must collectively give a commitment that we are not going to have children in Northern Ireland who are destined to fail. Each of us knows, both professionally and personally within our communities, children born to families that do not have the same life chances. We know from the minute those children are born that they do not have the same life chances.

1110.

I have read the Hansard record of the young people from the Western Education and Library Board who gave evidence to the Committee. They asked why it is that children who live on the Culmore Road are not as destined to fail as children in Shantallow? It cannot simply be because of their address. There needs to be a commitment at the highest level to ensure that no child sets out on a life path on which he is destined to fail at almost every stage.

1111.

Mr K Robinson: I am sorry to interrupt you again, but we are talking about aspirations here. What the Committee really wants to get to grips with is how to make these things happen, and I am not sure that we are doing that.

1112.

Mrs Cunningham: We need a commitment that addresses social exclusion of children and young people that every Government department signs up to and which requires them to look at their strategic plans to see what they can do. It might be a matter of rural children not having access to transport and being therefore excluded from particular activities. We know that research proves that children who are born poor have much poorer health in adult life than children who are not. How do we address that holistically and come up with a strategy that all Government departments have a sense of ownership of? Through the existing structures and with the right will and strategic direction at departmental and Government level, we could begin to address this.

1113.

The other issue that we need to tackle is that of the balance between prevention and intervention. When young people get to the stage where they are going to Linden, that is a very expensive remedial programme for them. All such young people are identified at a very early stage, and the resources to put in place the preventative services that are needed are not available.

1114.

When they get to the "pointy" end, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all are involved in working with them, while resources are not there to support parents to manage a young person's behaviour or to help communities ensure that their young people grow up being treated with respect and treating others with respect in return. Resources are focused at the pointy end and not at the preventative end.

1115.

Mr K Robinson: I take every point that you have made. I look at Ms Cavanagh's figures: 76,000 one-parent families struggling along, representing a quarter of our child population, a quarter of our total population. Are we not being totally overwhelmed already by the number of children who have come into the system and edged their way up through the league tables until they reach Ms Donnelly's situation?

1116.

Ms Cavanagh: Generally speaking, children who come through the lone-parent experience often have dilemmas at that point of crisis that they have to deal with. Traditionally, and as a result of research that has been done, it has been worked out that with the proper support services, and with prevention rather than intervention, within two years those children are just as every other child is. They have worked through the experience and have moved on. They have hit a plateau.

1117.

With prevention and with the support services that provide preventative rather than interventionist care there is a very good result. It is also, as Mary Cunningham said, a cheaper result, because the intervention element in any situation, including those involving children, is in the high tariff category of care.

1118.

Mr K Robinson: I am conscious that Mrs Jaffa has not had a direct question yet. The role of her organisation is central to this issue.

1119.

Mr Shannon: I have a question about the Children's Commissioner and the role that you play in the Parents' Advice Centre. How do you see the Children's Commissioner working with parents for the benefit of the children? Also, how do you envision the system working? I have another question, possibly for Gemma Donnelly. What would be the benefit of a Children's Commissioner having power to take legal action on behalf of a child or a group of children?

1120.

Mrs Jaffa: In general terms, this issue is about consulting with parents on themes, trends and gaps in the services that provide information. There are systems around that could do that, for example the Parenting Forum (NI). When I say that I would like a parent dimension to any investigation by the Commissioner, I mean that it should not just consider a child with special or individual needs or difficulties, but look at the family structure. That could tell the Commissioner about the practices, procedures or systems that are not in place.

1121.

We are well aware of the importance of not just looking at children on their own. As Kate Lewis said, there is a fine balance between saying that children's interests are of paramount importance and taking into account what is happening to a parent that has a direct impact on a child. It is about getting that tricky balance right. The Commissioner has to understand that these children have a family life and ask what is happening there.

1122.

This feeds back to the parenting programmes. What are the choices? Who are we engaging with? Typically, the parents who come forward for parenting programmes are those who put their hands up and ask for them. Parenting programmes are not engaging parents who are among the needy, who come from ethnic minorities or have learning difficulties. They are also not engaging rural communities. This is an area where the Commissioner could say "If you, as a board or a Department, are saying that you have a role in family support, let us see how you are investing uniformly in that throughout your board area."

1123.

Parenting programmes go back to some of the other issues that we talked about, such as the importance of prevention. If we can enable parents, the benefits are clear and well researched. However, somebody has to make a leap of faith and say "We are giving this amount of money to prevention, so that we have a medium and long-term benefit." A lot of the services are reactive, because they have limited resources. It comes back to resources and the strategic directions of the boards and Departments. It comes back to saying "How are we enabling parents?"

1124.

The investment is considerable, especially for young parents. One person on my staff has been working with a needy group of young mothers aged 16, 17 and 18 for six months. The movement is in millimetres. And that could be the situation in every town and village. The investment is huge. Although we do know how to do a lot of things, we have not enough resources and what we have is not being shared in all areas.

1125.

Mr Shannon: What would be the benefit of a Children's Commissioner having the power to take legal action on behalf of a child or a group of children?

1126.

Mrs Cunningham: Our view is that the Commissioner would be in that position by exception. There are already structures both to challenge existing law and to identify gaps in it. Only when those are exhausted would the Commissioner resort, in his own right, to taking legal action. If we saw that as a primary function, it would be an extremely costly and time- consuming process.

1127.

Only in situations where there was a benefit for all children or a point of principle was at stake that had not already been established would the Commissioner take legal action. I do not envisage his having a role in existing law to take cases because there are other agencies to do that.

1128.

Ms Cavanagh has identified a gap in support for children in private law cases. In the initial stage the Commissioner may well have a role in highlighting that gap and establishing it in principle. The guardian ad litem would either extend its remit to represent and advocate on behalf of children in private law cases or would look at establishing something similar.

1129.

The Chairperson: As a group, EXTERN said that it would prefer young people not to be put into juvenile justice centres; it would prefer to look at other systems. Do you recognise that the public wants protection from some of those young people, particularly the joyriders, 14 to 18-year olds, who are still classified as children or juveniles?

1130.

In one instance a judge allowed a joyrider off, without any sentence, who then went out and stole a car to go home. The destruction and damage that they do to the property is one issue, but there is also the damage that they are doing to other people's lives because of the accidents involved. One person is dead this week already. Do you accept that there must be something to protect the public from young people who insist on offending?

1131.

Ms Donnelly: We accept that absolutely. EXTERN does not have a problem accepting that there are some circumstances in which a community, and the young person himself, must be protected. There is only one system to deal with that. We would prefer to work with those young people -mostly young men - from a very early age.

1132.

It has been established today that when young children are starting to show signs of disaffection from society or whatever, it can be picked up at a very young age. We prefer to do the preventative work, but we do accept that it is a huge issue. Nevertheless, we would prefer to do it another way, ie to prevent the behaviour - tackle the cause rather than the symptom.

1133.

Mr K Robinson: Parenting skills in Scandinavia are always held up as the model. I understand that they teach parenting skills in schools, and society values those skills. Indeed, if a family goes off the rails, it is taken into care as a complete family, and everyone is re-educated back into society.

1134.

Mrs Jaffa: That is about valuing parenting and saying that parenting is a pivotal part of what happens in any family life. We need to guard against taking other schemes and transplanting them here. We need a range of choices that suit the variety and diversity of parents. We have some excellent material, but we still need to develop more resource material and more ways and styles of learning for parents.

1135.

It will suit some to learn about parenting skills when they are teenagers, but other teenagers want to be teenagers, and that is fair enough, or they have too much to cope with to think about parenting skills.

1136.

We must be creative in how we catch parents, or potential parents, at the right moment to enable them to get sufficient skills. We must value parents who have skills; parents are put down a lot. Parents have skills that they do not recognise or value, and they need more support in difficult circumstances with temperamentally difficult children. There is a variety of things that we must do and a lot of work to be done.

1137.

The Chairperson: Thank you for coming today and giving evidence. I pay a particular word of thanks to Mary Cunningham for setting up this meeting and the previous meeting. It has been useful to have groups from the voluntary sector giving evidence and answering the Committee's questions. We appreciate what you have done in assisting the Committee to draw up its report.

1138.

Mrs Cunningham: On behalf of Child Care Northern Ireland I thank the Committee of the Centre for devoting so much time and energy at the pre-consultation stage. I am left in no doubt that the Committee is taking the matter seriously. I know that, in the work that I have done with it, there has been a commitment to taking evidence from children, young people, Child Care Northern Ireland and a range of other bodies.

1139.

The last time that we gave evidence Mr Beggs asked what the Committee of the Centre could do for us. I will repeat what I said on that occasion. Child Care Northern Ireland urges the Committee to adopt a holistic vision for the Children's Commissioner that places all children first and has the legal clout to act with the services and bodies that relate to, or affect, the well-being of children. We must ensure, not just that the best possible outcomes can be assured for our children, but that none of our children are destined to fail.

Wednesday 9 May 2001

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Ervine
Mr Maskey
Dr McDonnell
Mr McMenamin
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Ms K Williams AM ) National Assembly
Ms J Westlake ) for Wales

1140.

The Chairperson: We welcome Kirsty Williams, Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. She is accompanied by Jane Westlake.

1141.

The Welsh Assembly has already established its own Children's Commissioner. The post probably differs a little from the work that our Commissioner will be doing. We thought, however, that it might be useful to learn about the Welsh Assembly's experience of its Children's Commissioner, positive and negative, and its role.

1142.

Ms Williams has made it clear that her own Committee gives witnesses a very hard time, and that she expects this Committee to do likewise -[Laughter]. She did not say that, and I am sure that members will not be too hard on you, Ms Williams. Please present your evidence, and the members will then ask their questions.

1143.

Ms Williams: Today it seems as though the boot is on the other foot, because I am at the receiving end of what I usually give out to witnesses who come before my Committee. I am, however, delighted to have the opportunity to come here. The Welsh Assembly was thrilled to receive your invitation, because sometimes we feel that Wales is being left behind. We are very pleased to be leading the UK in the establishment of Children's Commissioner posts, and at your interest in our work. We were also pleased to receive representatives from the Scottish Parliament who visited us with a view to making proposals for the establishment of a Children's Commissioner in Scotland.

1144.

First, we will talk briefly about some of the processes, rules and responsibilities that we envisaged for our Children's Commissioner, and how we reached the point in March this year when the first ever Children's Commissioner for Wales was appointed. I will then do my best to answer your questions.

1145.

In early 1999, when the National Assembly for Wales was established, there was already a considerable amount of pressure for the establishment of an ombudsman or Commissioner. We were, therefore, starting from a very firm base. Most of this pressure emanated from the inquiry into child abuse in north Wales, which culminated in Sir Ronald Waterhouse's report 'Lost in Care'. It was also a result of the incidence of systematic abuse of children and young people throughout the Principality.

1146.

There was consensus across the political parties that the Assembly should address the need for a Commissioner. The Assembly's subject committee was established in June 1999, and the Health and Social Services Committee therefore made this its top priority. We needed to move fairly quickly because the Cabinet was prepared to provide money in the 2000-01 financial year. In addition, we thought that there would be an opportunity to give the Commissioner some primary legislative powers via the Care Standards Bill that was proceeding through the Westminster Parliament at that time.

1147.

The political consensus on the principle of examining the need for, and the potential role of, a Commissioner was a considerable help to the Committee. That was a strong basis to proceed upon. We also benefited from the active involvement of the Minister. I should point out that the Minister in the Welsh Assembly is actually a member of the subject committee, rather than being someone we merely summon, and therefore we had access to her Civil Service resources when carrying out the work.

1148.

The way in which the Committee worked on this first major item has set the tone for its subsequent work. Members seek consensus and discuss policy developments with the main aim of improving health and helping the people of Wales, rather than to further party political objectives. We were also keen to extend our work to involve other Committees with responsibility for children - for example, we held joint meetings to discuss evidence with members of the Pre 16 Education, Schools and Early Learning Committee.

1149.

Although children and young people did not give evidence directly to the Committee, several of the organisations that responded had consulted with young people, and we felt that this was very important. Children in Wales was at the forefront in working with the Committee. It had consulted children, young people and advocacy workers as early as its AGM in 1999 in preparation for what it saw as this opportunity. Children in Wales derives its membership from many smaller voluntary organisations. It has been campaigning for a Children's Commissioner since 1991. Its ideas and proposals were well thought out, and many were reflected in the responses to the consultation exercise that we were involved in.

1150.

Voices from Care, another organisation upon which we relied heavily, represents the collective experience of children who have been looked after. It had campaigned for a Commissioner for many years. It was particularly concerned that children who were being looked after in social-care settings often had a very low level of awareness of what they could expect from their corporate guardians. It stressed the need for independent and trustworthy arrangements for handling children's complaints and promoting their interests and ideas.

1151.

Children and young people were directly involved in the selection of the Commissioner, and this was an innovative step in public appointments. I will talk about how we did that later.

1152.

As indicated in the Committee's report, of which I understand you received copies, it consulted on the issues in its remit in the autumn of 1999. It received almost 100 responses. These included responses from health authorities, other professional health bodies, local authorities, 25 voluntary organisations, teachers' organisations, schools, churches, the legal profession and 16 individuals with professional interests in this area.

1153.

Although there was much consensus in the responses, the Committee invited a number of voluntary and statutory organisations to give oral evidence. They included Voices from Care, Barnardo's, local authorities, health service practitioners, the Welsh Administration Ombudsman and Health Service Commissioner for Wales and the Local Government Commissioner for Wales. They threw a great deal of light on their roles to date in promoting the interests of children and dealing with their complaints - or should I say, not dealing with their complaints.

1154.

The evidence that we received helped the Committee to reach its conclusions, and there was general agreement about the role that the Commissioner should have. I should explain that there was some frustration about the limitations of the National Assembly's powers, and that caused us, as a Committee, our greatest concern in taking this policy development forward.

1155.

The first issue related to whether the Children's Commissioner's powers should extend to children and young people who normally live in Wales but who receive care, education and other services in England. This is particularly prevalent for young people in mid-Wales and north Wales who often receive, for instance, tertiary health care in centres in Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham. The Committee concluded that they should, although we had to negotiate the matter with the Westminster Government.

1156.

The second issue of concern was that there were a number of areas, such as the benefits system and the criminal justice system, where powers were not devolved to the National Assembly for Wales but were held by the Government at Westminster. Again, the Committee felt very strongly that this should be a matter for the Children's Commissioner, and we had to negotiate those points with Westminster.

1157.

The Committee's report sets out what we consider the roles and functions of the Commissioner to be. The main responsibilities are to promote children's rights and raise the profile of children's issues; to advise on the impact of policies on children and represent their views; to monitor and oversee procedures for complaints and whistle-blowing; to ensure adequate advocacy arrangements for children in various settings; to provide information to children on complaints and other procedures; to disseminate good practice when dealing with children throughout the Principality; and, where a point of principle is at stake, such as a systematic breach of children's rights, to undertake formal investigations or to assist with those proceedings.

1158.

In carrying out these responsibilities the Commissioner should have the power to require the provision of information or the disclosure of documents. The Commissioner's remit should extend beyond the services normally associated with children to wider services and issues that affect them, such as transport policy planning. The Commissioner's powers should enable him or her to issue a compliance notice in respect of any recommendation contained in a formal report, and all bodies over which the Commissioner has jurisdiction should be equally bound to comply, including the National Assembly for Wales itself. Any organisation not complying would have to publish its reasons for not doing so. The Commissioner would be able to ask statutory bodies to exercise any enforcement powers that they have, should it prove necessary.

1159.

The Committee's conclusions and recommendations were endorsed by the Assembly as a whole in June 2000.

1160.

Primary legislation by the UK Government was needed for the National Assembly to be able to give the Commissioner the statutory powers that the Assembly wanted for the post. We were quite definite in our views, despite some earlier pointers by the departing Government at the time that we could have a non- statutory Commissioner. We truly believed that the Commissioner needed statutory powers. Via the Secretary of State for Wales, we secured an amendment to the Care Standards Act 2000 that enabled the Assembly to establish the post of Commissioner, but his powers were limited to the scope of that Act - that is, social care settings.

1161.

The 2000 Act contains permissive powers, and these will be given effect through secondary legislation to be made by the National Assembly. We are still looking at the implementation of the secondary legislation, and we will be looking at that at our next Committee meeting.

1162.

By lobbying the Secretary of State for Wales, we were able to secure a slot in the UK legislative programme in the current session for a Children's Commissioner for Wales Bill - no mean feat when you have a very short legislative timescale. The Bill was introduced in the House of Lords in February, and this is a very anxious time for us because it is still at Report Stage, and we need to get it completed by Friday of this week or the opportunity will be lost. We hope that it succeeds.

1163.

Most recently, the Government have also agreed to an amendment that will enable the Commissioner to make representations to the National Assembly about any of the matters that affect the rights and well-being of children, including matters that are not devolved. That is the most recent battle that we have won. That was in February of this year. The Commissioner's powers have been developed in stages, but we have got much of what the Committee asked for. That is a real bonus.

1164.

The Assembly agreed that an Ad Hoc Committee should be established to advise the Minister on the appointment process, the job specification, and the criteria upon which the applicants should be judged. The Minister chaired that Committee. It included myself, as Chairman of the Health and Social Services Committee, and representatives from the Health and Social Services Committee and the Pre-16 Education, Schools and Early Learning Committee. Two independent advisers advised us.

1165.

The process of public appointments has been transformed by the creation of the National Assembly for Wales. The Secretary of State used to give the jobs to "the great and the good", but all that has been opened up now. It is a far more democratic and open process, which we welcome.

1166.

The Committee thought that personal qualities are more important than formal education. The Committee considered how children could be effectively involved in the selection of the Commissioner. Some Members were a little jumpy about involving children in the process, but we overcame that. As a result of the Committee's deliberation, the Minister invited the Biteback group, which is a body representing young peoples' organisations in Wales, to facilitate the involvement of young people.

1167.

In November 2000 a number of children and young people attended a consultation day with the aim of selecting a panel of 15 young people to take part in the selection process and to agree the basis for assessing the candidates. The day before formal interviews of the shortlisted candidates, the children were invited to meet and interview the candidates.

1168.

The young people were given comprehensive guidance on their role, especially on confidentiality, equality of opportunity and assessing candidates against the agreed criteria. We did not want to put the children in a vulnerable position with such an important role, and we made sure that they had training before they were involved in the process so that they felt well equipped and confident in their role.

1169.

The panel was asked to identify the candidates whom they considered met the criteria, but were not asked to rank them. It was not fair for that panel to pick and choose the person that it wanted. Two of the panel were then delegated to sit on the final formal selection panel that shortlisted the candidates.

1170.

Interestingly, despite the fact that the panel was not asked to rank the candidates, the person that it felt most met the criteria was also the person selected by the formal interview panel. There was a very good tie-in on who the young people and the formal panel thought was the best candidate.

1171.

The successful candidate was Peter Clarke, who had formerly been the director of Childline Wales, the very famous charity for distressed children. He took up post on 1 March and is now preparing for the statutory powers under the Bill that should be passed this week.

1172.

The Health and Social Services Committee will now monitor the progress of the Commissioner. He is required to produce an annual report and to bring that to the Clerk of the Committee once a year. The report will then be debated in plenary session. We hope that we will also continue to hear from children and young people to ensure that their expectations of the Commissioner are met in the future.

1173.

The Chairperson: How co-operative has Westminster been with you? We will be going down the same route. There are powers that are not devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly that we want the Children's Commissioner to address. Also, what amount have you budgeted for the Children's Commissioner?

1174.

Ms Williams: In answer to your first question, we were very fortunate because of the cross-party support for the Children's Commissioner. The very long campaign that many organisations in Wales had fought gave grist to our mill. We were also fortunate to have the publication of 'Lost in Care'. The first recommendation of that report was the establishment of a Commissioner.

1175.

The Westminster Government responded very readily by giving us the opportunity to amend the Care Standards Bill. They were also very co-operative in allowing us time for the Children's Commissioner Bill. We had difficulty in convincing them of the need to have the wide ranging powers that we now have. They were a little bit uneasy about the Children's Commissioner looking at issues not devolved to the National Assembly for Wales and at services that were being delivered outside Wales.

1176.

However, due to constant lobbying from our Minister, and also a great deal of support from Welsh MPs, we were able to agree that final amendment in February. It has been a process of building and campaigning, but we have found Westminster to be reasonably in tune with what we wanted, and easy to work with.

1177.

The initial budget allocation for the Children's Commissioner was £800,000 in the first full year. This was based on consultations with the children and voluntary organisations in Wales who were asked to give evidence on the costs of the Children's Commissioner. It was broadly based on their recommendations of initial costs of around £750,000. The Minister will make more money available, as the Commissioner's job develops, and we can scrutinise what resources are needed to make the job an effective one.

1178.

It is quite difficult when you are working, to a certain extent, in the dark. We will not know what the demands on his time will be until the post is up and running, but the initial allocation is £800,000.

1179.

The Chairperson: It is useful that you have set the precedent for us in working with Westminster on this issue.

1180.

Mr Ervine: Welcome to the Committee. I think that the Chairman is right, you have set a precedent for us. In delivering the precedent, do you think that it goes far enough? What authority, for instance, will the Commissioner have in dealing with the security authorities or the police? Has he the right or the authority to protect a child who is not in custody?

1181.

Ms Williams: We were anxious, as a Committee, that the Children's Commissioner should not be the point to which all individuals can make a complaint. We felt that it was simply impractical that the Children's Commissioner should be at the end of a phone line responding to each individual complaint. We did not envisage that as the role of a Commissioner.

1182.

We hoped that the Commissioner would have an opportunity to scrutinise how the police treat children and the policies that the police employ towards children. The Commissioner would comment on those areas and make recommendations on whether they were adequate or inadequate, and, in the light of that, look to improve systems for children.

1183.

If there was a point of principle where we felt that there was a breach of an individual's right, there would be an opportunity for the Children's Commissioner to take that as a type of test case, perhaps through a legal challenge. We were anxious that the Children's Commissioner should look at broad approaches and not be bogged down with individual details.

1184.

We felt that because the issue of the police is still a matter for the Home Office, we were anxious that the Commissioner should have the opportunity to look at that. That is why we have been fighting very hard for the final amendment. We want the Commissioner to be able to comment on issues of criminal justice, to look at the attitudes of, and policies pursued by, the police, and to look at accessible avenues for children's complaints against the police, so that these issues can be brought to the fore. Children's experiences of the criminal justice system can be brought to the fore, and recommendations can be made, if necessary, on how practice should be improved.

1185.

Mr Ervine: I am pleased to hear that the Commissioner is going to have the capacity to comment on non-devolved matters. How many staff will he have, and is there any capacity for them to be proactive? For instance, we were all very taken about a year ago when we saw a young girl of four years of age in a drug house, somewhere in north-east England, selling drugs to the public through iron bars. Is there a way in which a Commissioner for Children could be proactive in such a circumstance, or is he only going to deal with the statutory authorities whose responsibility it is to treat children well?

1186.

Ms Williams: If the Children's Commissioner became aware of a situation that greatly concerned him, we would expect him to be proactive. He would not be fulfilling his function if he just sat back and let somebody else deal with it. If there were a matter of concern that had been brought to him by a child that he felt was of concern to all children, or many children, in Wales, or if he became aware of an incident, he would be expected to be proactive.

1187.

Compliance is a more difficult matter. It is anticipated that the Welsh Children's Commissioner will be seen as a powerful figure. Although he may not always have the power to make people comply, the power associated with his comments should make it difficult for organisations to ignore those comments. Organisations would ignore him at the expense of public support and would incur the wrath of people who are supportive of the Commissioner. It is hoped that the Children's Commissioner will create that kind of atmosphere around him.

1188.

The Children's Commissioner has no fixed staffing numbers yet. At present he is consulting with young people and others about the staff and offices that he will need. The National Assembly for Wales has outlined the expected broad functions of the Commissioner and the staff expected to deal with those functions.

1189.

The Assembly expects that there will be a legal team. There should be qualified people who have knowledge and experience of developing advocacy services for young people, but there are no hard and fast rules. The Assembly did not want to be prescriptive. It wanted the Children's Commissioner to decide what he needed to do the job. The Assembly wanted to have a hands-off role.

1190.

Mrs Courtney: Were there applicants from both genders for the position of Children's Commissioner? How many applicants were there? I often think of the Commissioner as a woman, but I notice that the National Assembly for Wales appointed a man.

1191.

Ms Williams: We interviewed five or six candidates, two of whom were women. The National Assembly for Wales has taken the radical step of reviewing public appointments, and we are very much aware of how under-represented women are in public appointments. However, the best person for the job was a man, but two women were shortlisted. In the public appointments process we try very hard to ensure that there is gender balance, ethnic balance and opportunities for disabled people. The National Assembly for Wales is a very gender balanced assembly. It is almost fifty-fifty.

1192.

Mrs Courtney: That is better than the Northern Ireland Assembly. On the independence and accountability of the Commissioner, what options did your Committee look at? Who is the Commissioner accountable to?

1193.

Ms Williams: That is a complex set of arguments. The Assembly wanted the Children's Commissioner to be as independent as possible, but his power comes from being appointed by a set of politicians, so he is answerable to them. Ultimately the Children's Commissioner is answerable to the First Minister in Wales, who formally made the appointment.

1194.

However, the Assembly tried to ensure independence by making the Children's Commissioner a one-term-only appointment of seven years. After the seven years have been served, one cannot reapply to be the Children's Commissioner. It was felt that that would give some inbuilt independence because the appointed Commissioner could act without fear or favour of jeopardising his reappointment in seven years' time. It was made a lengthy one-term-only appointment so that the successful applicant does not have to worry about offending politicians, and he can be as critical of his political masters as he wants to be.

1195.

The post has been established as an arms length body of the National Assembly for Wales. Funding comes from the Assembly, so that potentially causes problems. The Commissioner is required by the regulations to produce an annual report. Therefore there must be a balance between the need for accountability and the need for independence. The Commissioner must be made to feel as free to criticise the National Assembly as he would to criticise a local council.

1196.

Mr Maskey: Thank you for your submission. From what you have said, I get the impression that politically you want to have the remit and authority of such a Commissioner to be wider and more authoritative, but you are not at that point yet. You also mentioned that the Commissioner would report annually to the Health Committee. Is that correct?

1197.

Ms Williams: Yes. The annual report is to the Assembly as a whole, but it comes to us first.

1198.

Mr Maskey: I assume that that is because the primary responsibility up to now has been in care issues. While you say that you do not want to be prescriptive, you obviously have a clear view of what you want from a Commissioner and want the Commissioner to consult and take further counsel on that. Who sets the Commissioner's priorities? Given the fact that there is a limit to the budget and to the authority, who helps him set the priorities? You established the Commissioner, having identified the need. You have appointed a particular person to do a job, so who would help set the priorities?

1199.

Ms Williams: I expect that the priorities would be set in consultation with the Health Minister and the Children's Commissioner. The reason why the Children's Commissioner's primary point of contact with the National Assembly is with our Committee is that our Committee is responsible for children as a whole. Although our title is the Health and Social Services Committee, we have the primary responsibility for children's policy in the National Assembly. Therefore, the Committee is the main point of contact.

1200.

I am sure that it is envisaged that the Commissioner would work in consultation with the Minister, but, ultimately, it would be the Commissioner's decision to follow a certain path. If he were particularly concerned about advocacy services or disabled facilities grants for disabled young people, it would be his call to pursue those points.

1201.

The Commissioner is aware of the broad role and remit envisaged by the Committee, and I am sure that that will be very much in his mind when he is deciding his priorities. However, the investigations and the areas of policy that he looks at first would be a matter for discussion with the Health Minister. Primarily, however, it is a matter for the Children's Commissioner and the children of Wales.

1202.

Priority for this post has to rest with the children and young people in Wales. If the Children's Commissioner is not investigating and looking at the issues that are of concern and relevance to them, then he will fail. He needs to keep in touch and talk to young people about what they want him to do. There are lines of accountability to us, but the lines of accountability to children and young people in Wales are far more important than the political lines of accountability.

1203.

Mr Maskey: There is much talk about the Commissioner being able to review and comment on policies. Is it envisaged that the Commissioner would actually be proactive, looking at upcoming policies and wanting to have input into the formation of those policies?

1204.

Ms Williams: Absolutely. From the beginning, young people have been pressing the Commissioner to look at ways in which children and young people can better interact with the National Assembly for Wales and have a greater voice in the development of policies. I am sure that one of the Commissioner's priorities will be to improve our relationship and working with young people to ensure that their views are taken into account in our policy development.

1205.

My understanding is that the Children's Commissioner will set up a standing committee of advisers, made up of a cross section of children and young people from across the Principality, who will be standing advisers to him in guiding his work - something like non-executive directors of the Office of the Children's Commissioner for Wales.

1206.

Mr McMenamin: Good afternoon, you are very welcome to Northern Ireland. You said that there were 15 young people involved in the consultation process. How were they picked - for example, was it based on a geographical spread? Secondly, which of the Committee's recommendations resulted from the contributions made by children during the consultation exercise?

1207.

Ms Williams: The Biteback group, which selected the 15 young people, consisted of children who were brought together by Children in Wales, which is the overarching umbrella organisation for voluntary organisations that represent children and young people. The Biteback group was not brought together for the purpose of selecting the Children's Commissioner, but for looking at ways of developing closer relationships with the National Assembly for Wales and a better voice for children.

1208.

The Biteback group is a cross section of young people from across Wales, and the 15 people that it selected were also from a cross section of society. They paid attention to the geographical areas that the children came from. Attention was paid to their linguistic background - both English and Welsh speakers were included - which is very important for us. We also made sure that there were representatives of children with disabilities and also those from ethnic minorities. When looking at learning experiences and how we would do it better next time, we ran into difficulty with the representatives from black and ethnic minority communities, who felt that we had selected token representatives. We will need to revise how we go about making sure that young people from black and other ethnic communities in Wales are better represented.

1209.

We tried to make sure that all those representative of children's needs were reflected in the 15 young people who interviewed the candidates. That is very important. We were afraid that otherwise we would get mini Kirsty Williamses or mini Rhodri Morgans - those young people who are better able to express their views and get involved and influence - rather than the type of children whom the Commissioner has primarily been set up to serve. The Commissioner is supposed to help children who find it difficult to find their voices. We also made sure that we had young people there who had been brought up in the care system.

1210.

Mr McMenamin: What were the Committee's recommendations as a result of that?

1211.

Ms Williams: They wanted the Children's Commissioner to have some teeth in the form of statutory powers. They did not want it to be just an advisory post. They wanted it to have the power of law behind it. They wanted to be involved in selection, and that was something unique. It had never been done before. They wanted to have some say in who got the job. They were very keen on the idea of having a one-term Commissioner, as this would protect independence. I think that covers everything.

1212.

Ms Westlake: Yes.

1213.

Ms Williams: We found a great deal of consensus from the consultation. We did not have widely varying responses to the consultation. It was mostly along those lines. These are the key issues that the children were concerned about, especially the appointment process. There was a great deal of cynicism about authority figures from the children in care. They wondered what was going to be different about a Children's Commissioner. They had been dealing with authority figures who had been letting them down for years. They needed to have confidence that this person was going to be different and would make a difference for them. The independence and the power, helping to choose him and having someone they could trust were important to that vulnerable group of young people.

1214.

Mr K Robinson: Welcome to Northern Ireland. I apologise for arriving late. How did you achieve the balance between creating a body that was going to investigate other elements of officialdom, which had failed in their responsibilities towards children, and a body that was going to project the needs of the child, as reflected by the groups that were set up and whom you took evidence from?

1215.

Ms Williams: The consultation exercise was quite a breakthrough in the way that these exercises were carried out in Wales. In the old days a great tome of paperwork would arrive on someone's doorstep, and it would state "This is what we have decided to do about the Children's Commissioner. What do you think?" Instead we sent out one sheet of paper with six questions on it. We asked what the Commissioner's priorities should be. From the responses to that consultation it was clear that there was a need to achieve that balance. People did not want to get rid of one function at the expense of another.

1216.

It was envisaged that the Children's Commissioner would be the figurehead of a large office. This job is too big for one person, so we need a figurehead. Below him there would be an office that could carry out these functions. The balance was achieved because that is what the response to the consultation indicated. People felt that there was a need to have a figurehead to promote children's rights and issues, but one who could also have the opportunity to investigate whether those rights were being enforced.

1217.

If you look at the Scandinavian models, some of the Children's Commissioners have been involved in the promoting of children. Our consultation response said that it was all very well promoting children and being a figurehead, but if those children's rights are being systematically ignored or abused in the systems, then what was the point? We needed to have investigative and scrutiny roles as well.

1218.

It is difficult to balance, and the expectations are huge. We are going to have to wait and see if those expectations can be met.

1219.

Mr K Robinson: Was that latter part because of your experiences in Wales with children in care? Did that figure largely?

1220.

Ms Williams: Yes, the systematic abuse that was revealed in Waterhouse's report, 'Lost in Care' did shape what people were feeling about the Children's Commissioner. The report starts in 1974 and, despite the misconception that it comes to an end in the 1980s, it actually identifies the systematic abuse of children even past the publication of the Children Act. This was continuing in the early 1990s. There was a need to respond to that.

1221.

Mr K Robinson: You have rightly shown your concern for children in care and children who have been through various systems where they have met officialdom head on.

1222.

What about that child who is still in a family home, whether it be with the natural parent, a stepparent or a foster parent? Your concern for that child does not quite leap off the page to the same extent. I take it that you have not missed it, that you have dealt with it, and I have simply failed to pick it up.

1223.

Ms Williams: You are right to the extent that the most vulnerable children in society were primarily on our minds, because of the 'Lost in Care' report and the early opportunity of an amendment to the Care Standards Bill.

1224.

This is my personal opinion, but part of it is to do with the slight reticence that one political party has had about the Children's Commissioner. This has not come through in the Assembly's deliberations, but certainly it does if you read the Westminster Hansard. It is perceived that the Children's Commissioner will be interfering in the family and would usurp the role of the family and the power of parents. We were perhaps a little more reticent about that because of some political sensitivity.

1225.

I do not accept that this is all about the most vulnerable children. If it had been we would have been happy to accept just the amendment to the Care Standards Bill - we would have got the statutory powers to look after children, and we would not have to worry about anything else. We continued to campaign and push so that the Children's Commissioner now has the right to comment on all issues affecting young people.

1226.

I would expect the Children's Commissioner's focus to remain, in the short term, on those most vulnerable children. However, we can hopefully move to a Commissioner who has that broader outlook.

1227.

Mr Beggs: Thank you for coming along and giving us your experience to date and details of your innovative methods. I will go back to the inclusion of children in the selection panel. I was amazed when I heard that, and I can see why some people would be concerned perhaps with the concept of children deciding who their teacher was going to be.

1228.

The Children's Commissioner should be able to communicate effectively with children and instil confidence that he or she is representing them. Do you feel that that is an important aspect?

1229.

On the selection panel consisting of children, can you confirm the ages of the children involved? Did they carry out the full selection criteria as an adult panel would have? Was their selection largely based on the ability of the candidates to interact with, and relate to, children? I would be interested to hear your comments.

1230.

Ms Williams: My understanding is that the children's age range was from about 13 to 19 - quite a large cross section. We felt that that was the most appropriate age range, although the Children in Wales organisation believed it possible to involve younger children. However, we were not that brave, though it was convinced of the possibility of involving even younger children in the process. In relation to the process, the young people were brought to a hotel in Cardiff, with appropriate carers, to undertake an entire day of training on the Saturday. That examined the whole range of criteria on which they were being asked to judge the person. The candidates were brought in on the Sunday, when there was a mixture of role-playing exercises, interviews and questions aimed at the individual candidates.

1231.

It is true to say, however, that the children and young people placed great store on the person's ability to communicate. They had a flip chart, and at the end of the day they put smiley faces against each candidate's name and against each criterion to judge how good they were. Obviously, if they felt they were particularly good at communicating with young people, they had a large number of smiley faces. If they were not so good they scored lower. The children were asked to judge the candidate against each of the criteria, including communication skills.

1232.

The person has to be able to inspire confidence in young people. If he or she comes across as patronising or not caring about young people, that will not inspire the necessary confidence. To communicate with young people is a core criterion. As I said in my presentation, in the job advertisement issues of personality were regarded as much more important than the formal qualifications a candidate might have. That brings me to address an earlier question about trying to attract as broad as possible a field of candidates for the young people, and us as politicians, to evaluate.

1233.

Mr Beggs: In your appointment of a Commissioner, have you built in any automatic reviews - perhaps after two years - to assess once again whether further powers are necessary or an alteration should be made in the terms? We heard that you were making allowances for the budget, but have you built in any automatic review of the Commissioner's role?

1234.

Ms Williams: We have not built in an automatic review, but the Health and Social Services Committee will be receiving an annual report and will no doubt take the opportunity to explore whether the Children's Commissioner has the necessary power to operate and fulfil his functions satisfactorily. I expect there will be an ongoing review of powers.

1235.

Mr Shannon: I too apologise for not catching the beginning of your submission. You have probably touched on some of the issues I will raise, and, if that is the case, I apologise. I am quite interested in how the whole thing came about. In other words, what was the motivation, in your view, to have a Children's Commissioner? Perhaps you touched upon it in your response to Ken Robinson relating to the child abuse going back to 1974. Was that one of reasons?

1236.

Ms Williams: It was certainly a primary driving force. The publication of the Waterhouse Report was imminent. We were not aware what it would include, but the widespread, systematic abuse of children, primarily in north Wales, was obviously a great cause for concern. There had been a long-running campaign for a Children's Commissioner from a wide variety of organisations in Wales, even before the Waterhouse Report. Organisations such as Children in Wales and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children had looked at models in Scandinavia and further afield and identified them as the kind of thing that we needed to explore at home.

1237.

Three of the political parties had a commitment to establish a Children's Commissioner in their manifestos for the 1999 elections. My own party, the Liberal Democrats, and the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru all mentioned it. There was a great deal of political impetus. It was not something that politicians decide on easily, but it was an easy way for three political parties to say "We delivered on our promises".

1238.

Mr Shannon: The fourth one said that it was going to - when the other three led the way.

1239.

Ms Williams: Yes. It woke up to the idea. At the first meeting it said that it would also be supportive of the issue. A combination of a long-standing campaign in the voluntary sector, the Waterhouse Report and the political parties' commitments in their manifestos was involved. These were all driving forces behind it. Waterhouse did not report until we were well into our deliberations in December 1999. The first recommendation of that large report was to have a Children's Commissioner for Wales.

1240.

Mr Shannon: Do you see the Children's Commissioner as complementing, rather than overlapping with, other statutory bodies and organisations? In other words, the Commissioner would have a role that has not been there before. That is the big issue that is coming before us in this Committee.

1241.

Ms Williams: That is a very important issue. It is not about going over old ground or replacing something that is already there. That would be a waste of everybody's time. We were very careful to look at what already was established in the areas of advocacy, complaints procedures and people looking after the needs of children. We were keen to make the Children's Commissioner complementary.

1242.

We heard from the Local Government Ombudsman and the Health Service Ombudsman. They were asked to give evidence because these, technically, would be the people dealing with the system. We asked them how they felt about a Children's Commissioner. Their response was unbelievable. They said that there was no need to have a Children's Commissioner because they had never once dealt with a complaint from a child. If ever there were an advert for why you need a Children's Commissioner, I would suggest that that was it. We knew we were on the right track when they give us that answer.

1243.

We did not want to overlap with people - we wanted to make the role complementary. That is why we did not want the Children's Commissioner to be constantly available at the end of the phone so that all the children who were angry that their parents did not give them any pocket money could ring up and complain. The Commissioner's office is not that kind of body. It is there to develop systems in local authorities. It is there to develop systems in social care so that a child has the right to advocacy and can complain locally. It is only as a last resort that a child should have to come to the Children's Commissioner. The Children's Commissioner is there to ensure that everybody else's complaints procedures and systems are child-friendly and accessible. It is only when those systems fail and break down that the Children's Commissioner needs to get involved.

1244.

You do not need to rebuild something that is already there; it is about being complementary and passing on good practice and disseminating good practice around. Good practice in how local authorities and organisations deal with young people does exist; it is a matter of identifying and disseminating it. The Children's Commissioner could do that more easily than a hard-pressed social worker stuck in a local authority in north Wales. How does that social worker communicate good practice to a colleague in the south-west of Wales? A Children's Commissioner can get the evidence together and disseminate that good practice more easily.

1245.

Mr Gibson: Thank you for your presentation and the enthusiasm that you bring with you. I suggest that the reason for the Children's Commissioner is perhaps different from what has been said. I put the case that you were faced with the Care Standards Act 2000 and the Waterhouse Report from north Wales, and that really a Children's Commissioner is someone brought in to sort out a number of systems that are failing and have not been properly dealt with. Is that not so?

1246.

Ms Williams: The issue of child abuse - how we keep our children safe and how we protect children in social care, and other, settings - is going to be the priority for the Children's Commissioner. However, it is not the only reason for having a Children's Commissioner. It is perhaps the most important impetus that led to the Children's Commissioner. However, as I said before, if we were only concerned about the issues around child abuse and social care, we would have been happy - and the Committee would have stated that in its report.

1247.

The Committee's report quite clearly stated that, while that was very important, and we needed to look after the most vulnerable people, there was a wider role in society in Wales to address the needs of children and to make children's and young people's voices heard. It would be wrong of me to say that that is a small part, for it is a very large part of the Children's Commissioner's role. In fact, that was something that the candidates were asked to address - to explore the issue of systematic abuse of children and young people in our society and how we could go about talking about these very difficult and painful issues and addressing them. It is more than that - and the Committee envisages it to be more than that - but it will obviously be a priority.

1248.

Mr Gibson: Only a very small number of children are in care or fostering. In what way can the Children's Commissioner advocate and work for the other 97% of the child population?

1249.

Ms Williams: There are a relatively small number of children in care. However, in Wales there is a growing problem of children at risk. We have record numbers of children registered at social services departments as being at risk. I am not sure about Northern Ireland, but, certainly in relation to England, we have a greater number of children on "at risk" registers - so there is a real need.

1250.

The Waterhouse Report was looking at institutionalised care for young people - that is no longer the preferred model. In Wales we now prefer to look after our children in foster-care settings which, in some ways, makes it more difficult to regulate because the children are more dispersed and we are having to check up on many more people.

1251.

Although there are a small number of children in care, they are the most vulnerable people in society. We owe them a debt, and that is why the Committee wanted to extend the functions of the Children's Commissioner so that he can be a champion for all children. We have a significant problem in Wales, compared to England, in the number of children that are potentially at risk. This figure has grown substantially.

1252.

Dr McDonnell: Is there any role for the Children's Commissioner in the grey area of, for example, special educational needs? If so, what is that role? How do you see it being defined, and are the health and education boards not dealing with it?

1253.

Ms Williams: In the National Assembly for Wales we are currently undergoing a review of special needs education and closer working in the health, social care and education settings for young people. This is an area that the Children's Commissioner is perfectly entitled to investigate, and report on, to ensure that young people's and children's needs are being met. It is for the Commissioner to decide whether it is an area of priority and whether it is something that he chooses to look into. He is perfectly entitled to look at the whole system of special educational needs and to comment and make recommendations on it if he sees that it is failing the young people in Wales.

1254.

Given the fact that the Welsh Assembly is currently reviewing the area of special educational needs, the Children's Commissioner might well take the opportunity to look at it from his point of view, and from a child's point of view, to make sure that children with special educational needs, and their carers, are involved in the consultation process. It is certainly an area that he is perfectly entitled to look at, but it is up to him to decide whether to do so.

1255.

The Chairperson: Does funding come exclusively from the Assembly or, because some of the powers are devolved, does Westminster make a contribution to some element of it?

1256.

Ms Williams: No, the Assembly's budget is devolved. We get our money via the block grant, and it is up to us as a National Assembly how we spend our £9 billion. There is no dedicated money from Westminster. I only wish that there were.

1257.

The Chairperson: We are disappointed you did not set that precedent.

1258.

Ms Williams: I am sorry. We have done very well, but not that well. There is no extra money. It is a matter for our budget planning round to decide how much money the Children's Commissioner gets.

1259.

The Chairperson: In virtually all of our submissions the age of 18 has been recommended as the cut-off point for the Children's Commissioner. Your Commissioner covers children right up to the age of 24 who are leaving care and who are still in education or residential. I have my own views on that. This morning I was discussing with the local Housing Executive the problems in getting accommodation for young people who have been in care and who are now homeless. They do not know how to live in society. What advantages do you see in the Commissioner's taking those matters up to the age of 24 if required?

1260.

Ms Williams: That area caused a great deal of debate. It is very difficult to know where to draw the line. There is now a statutory requirement to provide support, advice and care up to the age of 24. It was therefore felt that the Children's Commissioner should have the opportunity to do that. It is very important. I have had personal experience of the matter you mentioned. A child who had left care was put in a flat alone, only to cause mayhem in the local community. That was not because the child was a bad person, but because training had not been given in the skills of running a home, managing a budget and participating in the community.

1261.

It is very important that children who have been in care, or who have been institutionalised for a long time, continue to have the support of Government in accessing services. They also should have the opportunity to access support and services from the Children's Commissioner.

1262.

With regard to learning disabilities and disabled children, it also covers some of the difficulties of the transition from an education setting - in Wales the Education Department looks after their needs - to involvement with the social services departments. It is often an area of difficulty for children with learning disabilities as they go into adult services, and that gap is also covered.

1263.

With regard to looking at the wider needs of the children in Wales, one of the first things the Commissioner has already been asked to look at is the proposal in a couple of local authorities to build new schools. Meetings have already been held. That in itself does not sound particularly controversial. We would have thought that everybody would welcome the opportunity to build a new school, but the proposals are to build them on former waste tips and gasworks. That has caused a great deal of concern among the local communities, environmental organisations and some health organisations. The issue has been brought by the public and by the people concerned to the attention of the Children's Commissioner, and he is looking at how planning policy should go about placing children's schools. The issue does not involve children in care, but it will affect all children in Wales. The Children's Commissioner is therefore already actively looking at where schools are placed and at the whole matter of planning schools and school buildings.

1264.

The Chairperson: Does the work with the Commissioner form part of a broader framework, such as a national strategy for children? How important is such a strategy?

1265.

Ms Williams: At present the issue of how the National Assembly for Wales deals with children is quite complex. There have been calls for the establishment of a children's committee - which has not happened. We do not have Cabinet Committees in Wales, but the most recent development has been the establishment of the first Cabinet Committee ever on children. That will try and bring together for discussion at Cabinet level all the strands of policy that affect children. I do not know whether the Commissioner will have a role in developing that, but I do believe that we need to have a strategic vision for children's services. There is always, however, the danger that having a strategy for children allows politicians off the hook. It allows them to tick a particular box and to say "That is fine; you have done it." Children "over there", "in that document" or "on a shelf" are always forgotten about when policy is being decided on planning, transport and health. Their needs are overlooked. I would rather see children's issues in mainstream policy development, rather than always going down the road of specific child policy.

1266.

The Children's Commissioner will try to mainstream the views of children and young people, and the relevant policies, rather than continue with what we have done in the past in Wales. In Wales there is a tendency to tick boxes and say "That is fine; we have done it. Children? - We have done them; we can move on to something else." That does not address children's concerns about not being heard on a whole range of issues.

1267.

What is a children's strategy? What does a children's strategy talk about? What are children's policies? What are young people's policies? We have entered the election campaign and, this morning, they were already talking about youth policies. There are no such things. Every policy is a child's and a young person's policy.

1268.

The Chairperson: Will your Commissioner look at legislation that the Welsh Assembly draws up to ensure that children's issues are addressed?

1269.

Ms Williams: Yes, he can do that. To date, we have failed miserably as an Assembly to incorporate the views of our young people in our policies, procedures and systems. The Children's Commissioner will probably look at that at some stage and make recommendations to us. I hope he will - if he does not do that, he is not doing his job.

1270.

The Chairperson: Is the position such that if, at some date, you thought that the Commissioner's remit should be broadened, you would be able to do that?

1271.

Ms Williams: The easiest way for us to go about that is by using secondary legislative powers, because they enable us to amend statutory instruments ourselves. We would have to re-enter the fray with Westminster if primary legislation were required to try to broaden the Commissioner's remit.

1272.

To date, the Children's Commissioner has been the most successful example of how the National Assembly for Wales has interacted with Westminster on legislative time. That is fair to say. We would have to look at the situation at that time and see what we could do within our own powers and decide whether we needed to go back to Westminster. Who knows? By the time that happens the whole settlement may have changed, and perhaps we would not need to go back to Westminster.

1273.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for coming today. We wish you, your Committee, your Assembly and your Commissioner all the best, and we hope that you achieve a better deal for children in Wales. We also wish you all the best for October when your first baby is due. Then you will have an even greater interest in children's affairs.

1274.

Ms Williams: Thank you very much. We are thrilled to have the opportunity to come to such a beautiful place and building. It felt really special to come up the avenue. I hope that what we have told you today will be of some help to you in your deliberations, and we wish you luck with your Children's Commissioner and for the future of the Assembly.

Wednesday 9 May 2001

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Maskey
Dr McDonnell
Mr McMenamin
Mr Shannon

Mr T Frawley ) Assembly Ombudsman for
Northern Ireland
Mr J McQuarrie ) Deputy Ombudsman

1275.

The Chairperson: You are very welcome. We will hand over to you to make your submission, and then the Members will ask questions.

1276.

Mr Frawley: I thank the Committee for inviting evidence from the Office of the Assembly Ombudsman and for the opportunity to discuss this most important subject. It is timely and appropriate that the Committee is meeting today on Children's Day 2001, which is part of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children's important Full Stop campaign.

1277.

I emphasise my complete support for the proposal to appoint a Children's Commissioner in Northern Ireland. I came to my post from a background in health and social services. In my 30 years as a manager in the health and personal social services sector I found that the care and management issues that affect children were the most complex and intractable that I faced.

1278.

I acknowledge the outstanding work of many people from all sectors - voluntary, community and statutory - for their unstinting work, much of it unrecognised, in this important aspect, which will shape Northern Ireland's future.

1279.

The role of the Commissioner must be rooted in an inclusive, positive and an achievable vision for all the children in Northern Ireland. As someone who believes that reinventing wheels is an unproductive activity, I commend to the Committee the vision described in the Children's Strategy of the Republic of Ireland as one we could usefully apply as a basis for our approach in Northern Ireland. I quote their words for our context:

1280.

This form of vision offers us a context against which we can shape the role and relationships of a Children's Commissioner.

1281.

The role and the priorities for the post should be informed by these further quotations. The first one is from a submission by a Scottish young person:

1282.

The second quote is from the Health and Social Services Committee of the Welsh Assembly.

1283.

And finally, I quote from the Scottish Executive consultative paper:

1284.

It is clear from these references that there are three critical priorities for the proposed Commissioner if our children are to be happy, safe and reach their potential. First, the Commissioner must be an advocate and champion for children, ensuring real and meaningful engagement with children in ways that are appropriate, relevant and effective. Against our current performance and our organisational capacity, this presents a major challenge.

1285.

Secondly, the Commissioner must be the guardian of the rights of young people and children. Our objective must be to create a child-centred rights culture that will involve both promotion of rights and the monitoring of compliance. It should also involve representing and assisting children to present their case where a breach of rights is alleged or suspected.

1286.

Thirdly, life must be given to the much talked- about but yet to be seriously addressed ambition for joined-up Government. That would involve examination of all policy initiatives across statutory, community and voluntary sectors to ensure an integrated approach. It must ensure co-ordination and coherence to secure that optimum outcomes are achieved.

1287.

Generally, therefore, the championing role should be at the core of the Commissioner's role as it encompasses advocacy, research, monitoring and assistance in enforcement. There could be a legal problem if a Children's Commissioner determined complaints rather than investigating or assisting the complaint. Article 6 (1) of the European Convention on Human Rights states that

1288.

Therefore, if the Children's Commissioner had recommended and advocated for certain policies, and then could investigate the complaints involving such matters and determine the complaint, the advice I have received is that this would breach the determining civil rights or obligations or criminal charges, as the Commissioner would not be regarded as an independent impartial tribunal. Where the Commissioner does make determinations, the procedure must be fair and must involve public hearings.

1289.

A further concern relates to the potential for fragmentation. There is in the proposal the potential for unravelling the Equality Commission or for other groups to seek equivalent special provision, for example, the elderly or people with learning disabilities. I suggest, therefore, a narrower remit in terms of the Children's Commissioner using legal powers of investigation and enforcement. I have been advised, for example, that the standards on the UN Convention are not specific enough to be directly enforceable by an individual. Therefore, I suggest that a Commissioner should encourage authorities to develop a culture in which children are treated with respect, rather than be working for this in isolation from other bodies.

1290.

The legal protection of children should be worked out by participating in the legal framework available under domestic law, involving the Human Rights Act 1998 and the equality provisions of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The Commissioner would also have a duty to advise on how those frameworks could be improved in the interests of children. I advocate that the Commissioner seek to facilitate and underpin the work of those bodies on behalf of children, rather than set up a separate system of investigation and action. That would mainstream children's interests, giving them rights equal to those of adults.

1291.

The Commissioner should have specific roles in that area. First, the Commissioner should inform families and children in a meaningful way about existing provision. Secondly, he or she should have power of referral to other bodies and a right to receive a report on how the referral has been dealt with. A referral might result from an individual complaint or from the Commissioner's own research of a particular area. If dissatisfied with the response, the Commissioner could initiate legal proceedings, if appropriate.

1292.

I am concerned that the strategic vision may be downplayed in a body with too wide a remit. The advantages of visibility through specialisation raise potential fragmentation and conflicts of interest. Therefore, while it is possible to combine advocacy and investigatory powers and conform to article 6(1) of the European Convention of Human Rights, the potential complications in that suggest that it is better to provide for the Commissioner to comment on the enforcement performance of others. That would facilitate an ongoing comprehensive review and maintain the crucial monitoring role of the office.

1293.

A Children's Commissioner must challenge us all; complement existing services; offer an effective, systematic way of seeking the views of children and young people; make a major contribution to providing information, advice and support; be independent and have statutory powers; and be accountable for achieving the vision as part of a whole system. That can be expressed in the words of Francine Londsdaen:

1294.

Therefore, children must not only have protection but, critically, have participation. Children are not just human becomings; they are human beings. Childhood should be a preparation for citizenship and, turning the Victorian maxim on its head, children should be seen and heard.

1295.

The Chairperson: You referred a number of times in your presentation to keeping the remit of the Commissioner relatively narrow. The expectations of the Children's Commissioner are high - it is being talked about a lot. The expectations of young people themselves are high. The feedback that we have got thus far from young people is that they would like the Commissioner to have a broad remit. I understand your point about the office being fragmented if the remit is too broad.

1296.

How do we meet the needs and aspirations of young people and also have for the Commissioner a clearly focused remit that can actually deliver?

1297.

Mr Frawley: A couple of points might give the context. There are already significant arrangements, and there are different views on the effectiveness of those arrangements. It is very important that those organisation structures and systems deliver on their responsibility to children, rather than be inventing an alternative system. The critical balance is to ensure that the Children's Commissioner ensures that those organisations are delivering on their responsibilities in a joined-up way. That points to the key role of advocacy.

1298.

Picking up on your theme about expectations, the second element is that one of the real challenges for us as a society - and indeed all societies - is to develop effective mechanisms that allow young people and children to articulate their views. It is interesting that children in Wales were asked to assist in the selection process.

1299.

Twenty children were consulted on the sort of questions and processes that made sense to them. Two of those children sat on the interview panel. Some people might say that that is tokenism. However, it was a very realistic approach as ultimately the Commissioner will be for children. Likewise, if we were appointing a disability Commissioner, we would want to consult the disabled.

1300.

That engagement with children will become very important. It is exemplified in the excellent initiative in Fermanagh where real youth forums have been developed that enable politicians and others to hear what children are saying in a structured and systematic way. We want the Children's Commissioner to facilitate that type of development, replicate best practice and ensure that those voices are organised, articulate and able to come before Committees such as this and offer the views of young people.

1301.

It would be the responsibility of the Commissioner - having influenced the development of policy - to ensure that the bodies with a statutory responsibility to deliver those policies, do so. That is an issue of compliance. We want the Commissioner to be able to come back to Committees such as this, for example, and report that a certain policy does not work or that the bodies are failing to implement a particular policy. Policy development would not then be the dead thing that it tends to become in large bureaucracies. It would actually be a dynamic thing that is constantly changing through the intervention and support of the Commissioner who would make sure that it continues to be relevant and appropriate.

1302.

I am sorry that I have spoken for a long time, but the appointment of a Commissioner is a very dynamic task. It is not about developing a parallel universe for children, but about actually ensuring, as a previous witness mentioned, that the children's agenda becomes a part of the mainstream and is brought into play when all issues are being examined.

1303.

The Chairperson: Do you believe the Commissioner should have a role in making legislation childproof?

1304.

Mr Frawley: Yes, very much so. That is very important. The real challenge for a Commissioner is not simply to make legislation childproof. There must be communication with young people to ensure that they are informing the Commissioner's words and actions. The role will be very demanding and time- consuming. That goes to the heart of your earlier point, Mr Chairperson, that young people will expect that. They do not expect an adult to read articles and research and then announce that the policy is childproof. Rather they will ask "How do you allow us to influence this policy?"

1305.

Mr Gibson: Your presentation was a very worthwhile contribution to our investigation. I am delighted that you mentioned the issue of sharper focus because that is a contention that I strongly hold. I am concerned how the Commissioner, even with sharper focus, is going to encourage compliance when we do not yet have a strategy. There is a certain amount of wishful thinking surrounding the appointment of a Children's Commissioner.

1306.

I will use an expression that I used in a previous meeting: if there is a hole in the roof, do we put up a flag? Somehow the flag is expected to repair the hole in the roof. I am concerned that the ills of non-performance, or the lack of resources to make performance possible in other areas, will not, or cannot be altered despite the desire to give the Commissioner sharper focus and the ability to enforce compliance and make things happen. If this does not happen, you can childproof and do all those desirable things, but perhaps to no avail.

1307.

Mr Frawley: It is important that the Children's Commissioner will be a part of the overall framework of governance in Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is a very significant issue in terms of the relationship between the Children's Commissioner and the Assembly Committees.

1308.

I do not have determining powers for good legal reasons. As an ombudsman, I make recommendations. No public body - regardless of the citizens' perception of them - wants to be criticised or marked as a failure by a Children's Commissioner or an ombudsman. They want to do what is best for their communities. Issues of non-compliance or activities that they have failed in should be brought to their attention.

1309.

The Children's Commissioner would have access to relevant Committees of the Assembly and be able to tell them if x, y or z statutory body is failing. In turn, the Ministers who are accountable for the delivery of those systems would come before those Committees. I do not think that a permanent secretary or a Minister would be very comfortable if the relevant Committee said that they had a report on the performance of a particular education board or district council that said that they were failing completely to deliver on certain requirements.

1310.

It is better to have volunteers than conscripts. If you decide that that approach is not working, then you might want to give a Commissioner enforcement authority, but that should be an evolving arrangement, rather than the starting point. We should encourage people to participate and contribute, and if they fail to comply we could then try a different approach, but it would be disappointing if we got to that point. If the citizens of tomorrow are not being enabled and encouraged, particularly by statutory and voluntary bodies, then there is a serious issue for us to address. However, we should try to encourage people before we impose sanctions.

1311.

Mr Shannon: I liked your poem. As the father of three small boys who are often heard before they are seen, I understand exactly what you mean.

1312.

Does your remit extend to maladministration within the criminal justice system? If it does, should the remit of the Children's Commissioner extend to cover children in the criminal justice system?

1313.

Mr Frawley: No. My legislation excludes decisions concerned with the criminal justice system. At the start of any civil or criminal proceedings before any court of law in the UK, or any international court or tribunal, I immediately withdraw from the investigation. My authority is completely superseded by the authority of the court in such circumstances.

1314.

Mr Shannon: Would it be advantageous for the Children's Commissioner to have such a responsibility?

1315.

Mr Frawley: I could see a role for the Commissioner in supporting a child in a legal challenge, but I do not think that the courts would be comfortable if their jurisdiction was subordinated to a Children's Commissioner. That would take the issue to a different level, and another aspect of our judicial process would come into play.

1316.

Mr Beggs: I welcome your support for establishing a Children's Commissioner. The Local Government and Health Service Ombudsmen for Wales said that they had not had any complaints from children? Have you had any complaints from children in the last year?

1317.

Mr Frawley: We receive complaints from children, although they are not significant in number. In the year 1998-99 there were 28 complaints, in 1999-2000 there were 10, and in the year that has just ended in March 2001, there were 16.

1318.

There have also been complaints about the Child Support Agency, payment arrangements and central benefits that would affect children. The complaints tend to be about issues such as school transport, special educational needs - which was mentioned in earlier evidence - and the provision of play and amenity areas. In a small number of incidences we receive complaints about the whole issue of children's welfare and some aspects of how child abuse procedures are carried out.

1319.

Mr Beggs: How would you organise your interaction with the Children's Commissioner? Who should handle complaints about school transport, for example? Is there a need for a memorandum of understanding?

1320.

Mr Frawley: It would be very important to establish a protocol so that we could work together. We would need to establish a criteria for deciding whether a complaint was appropriate to the Children's Commissioner or to my office. My office focuses on the issue of maladministration.

1321.

The remit for the Children's Commissioner might go much wider than maladministration. I can see a circumstance arising where the Children's Commissioner might want to look at - what the Americans would describe as a development of a class action. Therefore, the Commissioner would need to see more general ramifications for a particular issue and see that as a case that he or she would want to pursue. However, I can only focus on the individual case and the individual complainant. A significant amount of resources would be needed to fulfil the advocacy, championing and policy-proofing roles. Therefore, if there were a protocol and an arrangement for my office to undertake the examination of individual complaints, I would see it as my responsibility - if I were investigating a case where I saw a wider implication - to go to the Children's Commissioner and say that I had identified a policy issue that seems to have significant implications in its application or ramification, and it may be one that the Commissioner would like to look at. That type of working together is something that we are already looking at with the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission, because they may have grounds for investigating an issue or referring an issue to me.

1322.

Another important matter that the Committee will probably want to consider is that the person or body who has been complained about has also got rights. Therefore, there must be another level at which a health authority, an education board or a local community group can say that it thinks that the Children's Commissioner has been unreasonable in the way that he or she has pursued a matter. The person or organisation could go to the courts, but the number of judicial reviews would escalate. The Committee might want to look at whether the ombudsman or the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints have a role in assisting in circumstances where people feel that there has been abuse of power by the Children's Commissioner, because there could be people who would perceive that.

1323.

To put that in context, if a complaint has been taken by the Children's Commissioner that involves a child, and you are an adult or group representing adults, you would not necessarily perceive the Children's Commissioner to be the fairest person to investigate that complaint. That is an issue that will be developed over time, but it is one of the complexities that must be understood as one moves forward.

1324.

Mr Beggs: We were told earlier that the Welsh Assembly had set aside an initial budget of £800,000. It looks after a bigger budget than the Northern Ireland Assembly does. What sort of budget do you think would be appropriate for us to give? Do you agree that the Commissioner should have the freedom to develop the staff and structures as he or she feels fit, or should the staff and structures be prescribed when the post is being set up?

1325.

Mr Frawley: If the Commissioner is appointed to fulfil a particular programme of work, he or she should have the responsibility to design the organisation. The Commissioner would be accountable for fulfilling the programme of work whether or not their organisation or approach has worked. The Commissioner stands or falls on the basis of whether he or she achieved what was set for them in their programme of work.

1326.

It is hard to predict the budget necessary for the Children's Commissioner without knowing what the total remit of the post will be. At a recent conference in Scotland, I listened to the appointed Commissioner for Children in Wales, and he has ambitions to appoint 25 people. Whether that will be supported by a budget of £800,000, I cannot say - it will depend on the people who are recruited. He intends to recruit a lawyer, and I cannot make any judgement about a salary for a lawyer.

1327.

Mr Maskey: Then the money is gone.

1328.

Mr Frawley: If the Children's Commissioner is going to have a wide remit and range of responsibilities, the resources must be available to meet that. I come from a background in the Health Service. You must look at the bodies that are already out there and what they are doing. Then you could decide for or against what they are doing, and you could decide the key roles that you want the Commissioner and his or her organisation to do and agree a sum of money. You do not want someone who is marking every aspect of public affairs - duplicating and overseeing. There is, I believe, an assumption - and this is important for public service - that people are doing good work and that mistakes and failure are the exception. That must be identified and addressed. Can the Government afford a wide infrastructure? That is a matter for someone else to address.

1329.

Mr McMenamin: Are there examples in which the offices of the ombudsman and the Children's Commissioner are separate?

1330.

Mr Frawley: That is the case in Norway, and I know that the Committee will take evidence from the Norwegian Children's Commissioner. There is an ombudsman and a parliamentary ombudsman in Wales who have oversight powers, and there is now the proposal to have a Commissioner. That arrangement is developing. The structures in Wales are dynamic - they had limited beginnings, but those have developed significantly. The Republic of Ireland intends to have an ombudsman and a children's ombudsman. Those are all stories in development.

1331.

The Government in Scotland have decided to take a step back. The Education, Culture and Sport Committee is asking what a Children's Commissioner can add to current structures. That approach is built on the fact that they are not looking at a blank sheet but at a lot of infrastructure, and they have to ask what the right relationship would be between that infrastructure and a Children's Commissioner. That Committee will come forward with proposals for the Scottish Executive about whether there should be a Children's Commissioner. In all of those instances, the point is to design a system around the existing infrastructure that is coherent and makes sense.

1332.

The decided system must avoid overlap and duplication as that would create confusion, and space would be contested. You could have people saying that they are going to judicial review and that the Children's Commissioner is interfering in their statutory responsibilities. There could be tremendous public disbelief as individual Commissioners contest issues and say "That is my responsibility, and this is yours." Establishing a Children's Commissioner takes time, but it is important to map the environment and get clarification about how the office would work.

1333.

Mr Maskey: You have raised a number of important issues about the scale and the scope of such an operation. I take those issues on board, particularly as one may have to face budgetary constraints. There are widespread expectations about such a post. I would have preferred to see a minister for children and young people, albeit time-bound so that policy matters could be introduced into the mainstream.

1334.

I am interested in the grey area in the relationship between the Offices of the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, the Commissioner for Complaints and of any Children's Commissioner. I get the impression that you see those offices as equal, whereas I am trying to get a sense of an authority chain. That outlook is different from those of the past.

1335.

People have expectations and demands because they think that past systems have been unsuccessful. That lack of success is not down to individuals - it is because Governments have been distant and not joined-up. I would like to see a system that appoints a Commissioner with clout and who can make a difference. We will have to follow-up on the matter of resources.

1336.

Mr Frawley: I am looking at the matter from my working experience in a complex system such as the Health Service. My experience told me that if I could get to the next job I would have more authority, and I have always believed that. Each time that I have got to the next job, I have had less authority than I had in the previous one.

1337.

Hierarchies are important. The Children's Commissioner is important because he or she has an informed professional voice that can look at the performance of the different parts of the system. The Commissioner can objectively say that one part of the system is working well, or that another is failing, or that a policy that engages those two elements is missing. The Commissioner needs to take that overview. The structure is not hierarchical, but the Commissioner is outside the system observing how it is working and whether the office is serving the needs of children, as well as encouraging and demanding that the different components of Government work in the interests of children. In that sense, I would see it as about independence, rather than about authority.

1338.

The second dimension is that because of the independence of the role of a Children's Commissioner it seems that there has been a focus on the investigative role that will draw him or her into the dark detail. In fact, the ambition for the post is to be above the dark detail. It is important that that investigative role is not circumscribed but is described in a way, as the Welsh are trying to do, that when there is a major issue that requires investigation and which has very major ramifications - for example, a child abuse issue or an issue on the safety of children in different circumstances that has general application - that could be the subject of a major investigation by the Commissioner.

1339.

Investigations are hugely resource expensive. They are not things that you can walk into, take a couple of notes and walk out with a definitive judgement. They are very demanding, and a lot of expertise is required in them.

1340.

I would not circumscribe the investigative responsibility, but I focus more on the independent overview of the performance of all departments in relation to delivering a child-friendly social system in Northern Ireland. The key focus is the big issue, rather than getting into detail. If the individual gets sucked into a lot of detail, then they will lose that overview.

1341.

Mrs Courtney: You talked about the independence of the Children's Commissioner, and in your report you said he or she should have an annual report to the Assembly. Who do you think should appoint the Commissioner, and whom should he or she report directly to?

1342.

Mr Frawley: In terms of my own situation, I submit an annual report to the Assembly, which describes all the work that the office has done in the previous 12 months. Sponsorship of my office is through the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and it purely supports the overall work. The key issue is that I am independent and in a position to look at any part of a Department's performance and say "I find that unacceptable" or "That is maladministration."

1343.

It is important that the Commissioner is not accountable and has the independence to say, for example, that the Department of the Environment is failing children. If the Commissioner were reporting to a Department, then there would be a problem in terms of that independence.

1344.

The Commissioner's real accountability would be to the Assembly. The Commissioner could report "That was my programme of work and what I achieved, and those are the issues that have emerged. As you undertake your work in overseeing the whole governance of Northern Ireland, these are the big themes for children that should be in that programme. In that way the Assembly can contribute to all the elements of the Government's programme. The Departments, and your scrutiny arrangements, can ensure that. If there are not enough resources, that may have to be accepted and only two or three things targeted to be done." That could then be brought back down into the system through the organisations that are accountable, and the Children's Commissioner could oversee it.

1345.

With regards to the appointment process, I think my appointment was the first time an ombudsman has been the subject of a public appointment process. To have the confidence of the public, it should be a public appointment process. As to who should be on the panel, the Civil Service Commission undertakes these things on behalf of Government, and that may be something you want to look at.

1346.

The process should be open and available to anyone who considers himself or herself competent or eligible. Obviously, there would be selection criteria. Maybe the Welsh model of having young people on the panel is a challenging issue, but it may make the appointment convincing and credible to young people. That is a choice for those who would design the process. An open public advertisement would result in the best and most qualified person being appointed.

1347.

Mrs Courtney: The Welsh model as a 7-year appointment cannot be re-negotiated, and the person cannot re-apply. Do you think that is a good model?

1348.

Mr Frawley: It is for a post like this. In the nature of this work, it is important that the person stays fresh to the task and brings fresh insights and observations. After seven years in a job like this, it is not possible to retain that fresh eye. It would be very interesting to have a seven-year programme, because this is not going to turn around in a year or two. This is a cultural shift in the way that we perceive children. It is not about issuing legislation but about the way in which children are supported and looked after. A seven-year term is quite a sensible model.

1349.

The Chairperson: How much does is cost to run your office? How many staff do you have?

1350.

Mr Frawley: Our budget is £945,000, inclusive of accommodation costs. We have 18 staff, and we employ experts in medicine or social work, depending on the type of complaint that we are looking at. There are a lot of add-ons in terms of the support that we seek.

1351.

The Chairperson: What are the strengths and weaknesses of the procedures that you are required to operate by law in respect of investigations?

1352.

Mr Frawley: I mentioned the strengths earlier. It revolves around making recommendations. It is an inquisitorial model of investigation. I am not there for the complainant or to support those people complained about. I try to walk the middle line and hear both sides of the issue. I have an inquisitorial approach, which is obviously about questioning. I look for papers, documentation, minutes and records of discussions or decisions. I have a very high level of authority - equivalent to that of the High Court - in terms of seeking documentation. People who refused to attend at my direction could be the subject of a contempt proceeding.

1353.

All my investigations are absolutely covered by confidentiality. That can be frustrating. There is only one time in the year when I can reveal what we do, and that is in our annual report. In some ways, that can be frustrating. You come across issues that you think the public should be aware of, but that is not in our gift. The person who complains can take the report that we give them at the conclusion of our investigation and share it with others. That is their decision. Similarly, the Assembly Member who sponsors a particular complaint can take the report and share it with others. However, my office can have no involvement in the public arena. That becomes a weakness for a Children's Commissioner who might wish to publicise issues and bring them to the attention of the public. However, confidentiality is the basis of my authority, so I accept that limitation in that spirit.

1354.

The other key - and you could call this a weakness or a strength - is that I cannot determine an outcome. I make a recommendation. Any Department or body would be within its rights to say, "That was interesting, but we are not doing that." That has never happened in my time, but it has in the past. On such occasions, I could make a report to the Assembly and say that the body was refusing to accept my recommendation. I do not think that a Department would wish to be in that position. However, it is still only a recommendation. If I made a recommendation in my other role as Commissioner of Complaints, then the person can take that recommendation to the County Court and have a value put on it by a judge. I do not put that value on it. I do not have a determining role.

1355.

I have a very high level of confidentiality, which can be a difficulty on one level. That would be a real difficulty where people are looking for publicity and a result or outcome. The other limit on my authority compared to, say, my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, is that I can only investigate when a complaint is made to me. I could not read the 'Belfast Telegraph' tonight and say, "My goodness, how did that authority come to that conclusion? I must go and have a look." Someone has to come to me with a complaint, saying that he or she has suffered injustice. Then I can look at it.

1356.

In the Republic, the ombudsman can look at a pattern of difficulty. Recently he produced a major document on the management of residents' personal allowances. He saw a problem and decided to do a major investigation. I cannot do that. I could do a special investigation, but that would only be after I saw a pattern of individual complaints.

1357.

That is another limitation compared to what you might wish to see a Children's Commissioner having. You might want him or her to be able to go out and see a problem and immediately embark, without anyone complaining, on an investigation of how a service is operated or how a policy affects young people.

1358.

The Chairperson: When is your annual report due?

1359.

Mr Frawley: It is due at the end of June - for the period ending 31 March 2001.

1360.

The Chairperson: We look forward to seeing that. Thank you.

Friday 11 May 2001

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Maskey
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Mr T Waage ) Norwegian Children's Ombudsman

1361.

The Chairperson: I warmly welcome Trond Waage, the Norwegian Children's Ombudsman. We are very pleased to have you with us today.

1362.

As a Committee, we have spent the past two months taking evidence from almost every children's group in Northern Ireland. We will draw all the views together in a report on the role of a Northern Ireland Children's Commissioner or Ombudsman. Today sees the end of the evidence sessions, so it is fitting that you should be here to represent the country with the longest experience - 20 years - of a Children's Ombudsman. The Welsh Health Committee has just appointed a Children's Ombudsman, and Kirsty Williams, the Committee Chairperson, was with us on Wednesday 9 May.

1363.

We would like to learn from your mistakes so that we do not repeat them. We also want to learn from the things you did correctly and to repeat those.

1364.

Mr Waage: Thank you very much for inviting me. This is my third visit to Northern Ireland, so I have had the opportunity to meet some of you before and exchange information on children's issues. I have also had discussions with representatives from the strong voluntary sector in Northern Ireland, and that has been a very fruitful experience for me in Norway. I always take back a lot of information and new ideas from my meetings in Belfast.

1365.

As you may know - and I understand that as Committee members you are well-prepared for the hearing - the office of the Children's Ombudsman started in Norway in 1981 after long discussions in the 1970s on the revision of law relating to children. The main starting point was the policy on children.

1366.

In my travels during the past four years, I have met parliaments, assemblies and governments that were planning to set up an independent office and who were investigating how it should be staffed and organised in relation to other national bodies. From my experience in Norway I can see that there is one big challenge, and that is how the legislation is framed.

1367.

The legislation for the Norwegian Ombudsman is very broad and open. It is one and a half pages long. It gives the freedom to do things that are important in a modern society that is changing rapidly. It can be reactive in a monitoring, watchdog role, and also proactive, working towards the future and using the competence of children in Norway, who are our most important tool. The children feed me with information on how we should create the best facilities in Norway.

1368.

Children often get lost in the political shuffle in Norway. They are often invisible in society, they have no vote, and their interests are rarely represented in political processes or decision making. Despite rhetoric to the contrary, children are not high priority in policy making or in the allocation of budgetary or other resources. That is what we are faced with in a modern society in Norway.

1369.

We have a Minister of Children and Family Affairs. In the 1980s, the first Children's Ombudsman in Norway proposed that we should co-ordinate the activities of children at ministerial level. Up to that time, different committees had taken responsibility for special issues. This Ministry has a very high profile in Norway. The last Minister had also been her party's leader. In this way the Government is telling Norwegian society that we do give priority to children.

1370.

My task as Ombudsman is to monitor the legislation going through Parliament to see if it is in the best interests of children. The task is one of public administration of bureaucrats at a local, municipal and national level. We receive complaints from children, families, parents and grandparents. I then decide if the issue is purely a conflict between public administration and the individual, sometimes which is regulated by the general Ombudsman. If that is the case, I will refer the matter to him.

1371.

The conflict is sometimes outside the mandate of the general Ombudsman, because it is a matter of principle. I have the power to investigate these cases, and after looking at several of them I can synthesise them and bring them forward on a political level to the local administration, and inform them that the matter does not meet with the practice required by the legislation. I can also suggest a change in the legislation through Government and Parliament. In any given year several proposals for changes to the legislation will have been initiated by the Ombudsman's office.

1372.

The tradition of the Ombudsman in Norway is very highly respected, and I am not talking about me personally. It is to do with the way in which the institution was introduced in Norwegian society. The office has a high media profile. It is used as a witness for truth when the media highlights various conflicts. Commentators look for a definitive statement from the Ombudsman on the right direction.

1373.

That means that we are in a position to create quite a lot of public awareness in these cases of principle. The last issue, for example, was about piercing. I took up the case because young people had brought it to my attention. Many had had problems with infections from piercing, because it is not regulated by health legislation. It can be done at hair salons and other places. Piercing is trendy, but infections were costly for our health system.

1374.

We had a discussion with the young people and we came up with a proposal about how to regulate this, but not everything can be regulated. It is important for an Ombudsman to use his authority to raise public awareness of debates and changing attitudes. There are issues that cannot be regulated, such as commercial pressure and the sexualisation of childhood.

1375.

I invite directors of private companies to my table and ask them for their ethical codes regarding children. I ask them to take some responsibility for the creation of happy childhoods. We are trying to create a positive child profile, and they know that this is important for children and families. We co-operate with these influential private companies.

1376.

In Norway we do not have school uniforms as you do here. This means that we have one of the most expensive school uniforms in the world. You have to wear the right jacket, have the Nokia 3310, and wear the right shoes. Companies identify the most popular children in the school yard, who then receive free clothes for a few months. Advertising is not allowed in schools, but the children are used as indirect commercials.

1377.

The pressure is difficult to regulate. However, I have initiated a public report through the Government, and this important paper on commercial pressures on children will soon be published. Families have been fighting for this. If you do not look "right", you can become socially excluded, which is an enormous pressure on young people. I can work with the private sector to come up with a child profile. They have invited me to share this process of framing a positive society for children in Norway.

1378.

Although this is a cause that will give me some statutory power to investigate, I am not allowed to intervene in the court. If I were to do that with complete confidence, I would need many lawyers. It was passed through Parliament because there was a fear the Ombudsman's office would dive into individual cases. The Ombudsman would not have the power to have an overview and a holistic approach. Children in Norway often face a "sectorising syndrome"; everyone stands on their own turf and only look at issues from their own point of view. A child with a problem can go to one sector which says that it is not its responsibility, and the child is shuffled around different sectors. They wanted an Ombudsman's office with a more holistic approach, a bridge builder. The Ombudsman could get consensus and get the different sectors to work together in the best interests of the child. That is why we are not allowed to intervene in court proceedings or in cases in process in local administration. I can analyse the cases afterwards to see if they have been handled in accordance with practice and legislation. I can come up with proposals for changing the outcome or I can criticise it, but I cannot take part in proceedings.

1379.

We are not allowed to intervene in family affairs although we do when a child calls us who has been beaten or sexually abused. We cannot say then that we are not helping a child because we are. There is backing for that in the legislation in that a reference to the CRC (Children's Rights Council) was added to the legislation in 1988. We were established in 1981 and the CRC was ratified in Norway in 1991, so that was not reflected in the original legislation. However, through the evaluation process we undertook in 1994-95, a new proposal was put to Parliament that is now reflected as an article in the legislation.

1380.

We intervene when we need to, when we feel that children's rights have been compromised and there is a danger to health or life. That is always done through co-operation with the child. Together we settle on a strategy that he or she trusts. It is important for me to ensure that the public system around the child and the family functions in accordance with the legislation's ideal and vision. So I have this power, when addressing the local administration, to say that something is not in accordance with the legislation and that it has to change.

1381.

My staff is multi disciplined and is made up of lawyers, psychologists, educationalists, a sociologist and one medical doctor who is also a lawyer. They all advise us. They were not recruited primarily for their educational or professional backgrounds, but because they are dedicated to children's interests. We are working holistically on all cases coming in.

1382.

Our budget is limited. From August there will be 12·5 people in the office plus one or two additional staff. Altogether we will have 14 or 15 people. Some will work on projects in the office. I have project offices so that we can focus on one issue. For example, when we had to focus on the commercial pressures on childhood, two young people from the university worked in my office for three months. They did some research and came up with ideas for the Committee and for Parliament.

1383.

Our budget is seven million Norwegian kroner, which is about £700,000. In April each year we deliver a proposal for the following year's budget. We are formally affiliated to the administrative side of the Government through the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs. However, it is Parliament, in their budget discussions, that decides on the amount we receive.

1384.

There is a broad international dimension to the office. The European Network of Ombudsmen for Children (ENOC) meets annually to discuss common interests in a "league forum". It is sometimes very lonely being an Ombudsman because you do not have a Cabinet or colleagues to lean on, but I have the children, which is good. There are some 1·3 million children in Norway. We also co-operate closely with the Nordic countries, meeting annually on a bilateral basis.

1385.

One challenge is to have extensive contact with children, which is one of the main things that Parliament wanted us to have. We have developed several ways of communicating with children, which we call "creating dialogue instruments".

1386.

We also have a powerline, which is different from a helpline or a hotline. Our contract with the powerline means that children can discuss injustice or things they would like to change, such as bullying or problems with divorce and so on. That kind of competence is needed. Proposals to change legislation arise; for example, recently we had the rights of homosexuals to adopt children. In those cases we use our dialogue instruments and we ask the children. That material comes to my office for analysis, and we can respond through our Internet channel. We also have two other channels: we have a direct line to text-TV on the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation and we have a slot on a television programme that is broadcast on Sunday mornings where we answer the questions that children and young people have asked the Ombudsman. In that way we have continuous dialogue.

1387.

I travel a lot and have many meetings with children on the issues they want to discuss. We consult children if a proposal for change is to be put forward to Parliament or if new legislation is to be formulated.

1388.

The Chairperson: What difference has the Children's Ombudsman made in Norway since it was set up 20 years ago? What evidence is there that it has benefited children and young people?

1389.

Mr Waage: A report has been published on this issue. The benefits can be measured on four levels. First, what is gained when individual cases come into my office for advice and analysis? Coming to the Ombudsman is a last option when all other avenues have been tried. That is a daily reminder that we are helping individuals.

1390.

Secondly, the political and legislative level must be considered. Since 1981 legislation concerning children's issues has been initiated by the Ombudsman's office. It is important for us not to flag our case - we are not politicians. When we put forward a case such as raising the age limit for piercing or banning cosmetic surgery for 16 to 18 year olds, it is important that that is put forward to Parliament so that the politicians can claim ownership of the idea. Politicians discuss ideas that come from the Ombudsman, to which they sometimes refer in public debate. Those ideas come forward as their own work, which is good because we want changes.

1391.

Political strategies are also useful. Children's issues are key priorities for five out of the nine political parties in September's election, and we have been asking for that for the past eight years. We are pleased that the parties have done that. The campaign will be interesting because politicians cannot fool around with children as much as they have been fooling around with those of us who are in our 40s.

1392.

Thirdly, we have had successes with the private sector. It is possible to have a meeting with the president or director of Nokia or the Internet providers so that they can devise filters, thus guaranteeing freedom of speech. They can also provide freedom of choice with different channels.

1393.

Currently the Internet is a challenge in Norway. It is open to everyone because there is no freedom of choice, unlike television. You can buy several packages and one may contain the pornographic material. As a parent, I can make a decision. In Norway 95% of families are on the Internet. There is no freedom of choice - you have everything or nothing.

1394.

In our meetings with Government, it has been said that the Internet is impossible to regulate, which is why I am working with the private sector in developing different channels on the Internet.

1395.

Fourthly, there is the voluntary sector. We co-operate well with the voluntary sector, the non- governmental organisations (NGOs), which is vital. We also guide the NGOs when we feel that they are losing track of childhood issues. We can promote our ideas and strategies on what childhood should be; childhood is not a disease that will pass, it lasts for a lifetime. We work closely with the voluntary sector.

1396.

The Chairperson: Is there evidence that cases of child abuse have diminished over the past 20 years?

1397.

Mr Waage: Through my office?

1398.

The Chairperson: Yes, through your office and also through legislation. Is there evidence that children are less in danger as a result of your child-proofing legislation?

1399.

Mr Waage: Yes. However, when we send proposals to Parliament to be debated, sometimes the whole Parliament is against us. That is how it should be. The responsibility to make changes lies with Parliament, not with the Ombudsman. We have worked on the changes that have been made to child policy in Norway and we are happy with what is happening, although we feel that they could occasionally go further.

1400.

There is currently a proposal to change the Norwegian Children's Act 1981 in respect of divorces. It is complicated in a typically Norwegian way. How can we ensure equality and give advice on divorces and also how divorcees can be good parents. It costs. We have to come up with a budget. What will it cost in the short term, and what will it cost in the long term?

1401.

The Chairperson: How are children and young people made aware of your office and its role, especially those who are on the margins of society and who are not on the Internet?

1402.

Mr Waage: It is done in many ways. It is part of the curriculum in primary and secondary schools, where children learn about the Ombudsman's office and about children's rights. A survey asked the question: "Do you know the Ombudsman?" Nine to 11 per cent knew about the general Ombudsman; 19% knew about the gender Ombudsman; 21% knew about the consumers' Ombudsman; but 78% knew about the Children's Ombudsman.

1403.

The reason people know about the Children's Ombudsman is that he or she has a high profile. We have our own television programmes and visit children as part of our proactive role. We are setting things on the agenda. For instance, you have been working here on radiation from mobile phones. In Norway we brought up that issue four years ago, and the whole of society was shocked because no one had thought about radiation. The children reported that to me. They said they became hot or change colour and so on, so they started asking questions.

1404.

We are concentrating on the political agenda, raising awareness and the media. I do not have a public relations person in my office because we receive six to eight media requests each day on issues that they are working on. We do not answer all the questions. We answer those that are proactive, because young people are often portrayed negatively. They are victimised; they are portrayed as harassing the elderly and that is not true. Ninety-eight per cent of young people in Norway are the most fantastic resource group that we have.

1405.

An important task of mine is to increase children's participation in the educational system and in the health system, so that we can bring their understanding of life to the changing process. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child consists of the three Ps: protection, provision and participation. The committee in Geneva that receives our state and end-of-year reports focuses on protection and provision but not on participation - it is also missing in the Scandinavian countries. Resources that children and young people have must be acknowledged and encouraged. Children and young people want to take responsibility for their education and their learning process. They want us to trust them to do that. There are several successful pilot schemes in Norway. Therefore, children themselves often initiate changes through my office.

1406.

Mrs Courtney: I found your presentation interesting because you outlined exactly what we are looking for in a Children's Commissioner. We are trying to get the right balance for the Children's Commissioner's duties, and you have put a lot of flesh on the bones. I had not thought about some issues that your office has highlighted such as body piercing and designer clothes. Those things concern families. I did not think they would be matters for the Children's Commissioner, but obviously they are.

1407.

You did not mention teenage pregnancies; they are a problem. Does your office have any evidence of that problem in Norway? Do young people come to your office with that problem? I brought the issue up because a case has been highlighted in England where a 12-year-old is pregnant. She does not know who the father is; it could be any one of five. What are your views on that?

1408.

Mr Waage: In 1999 my office dealt with 134 cases of teenage pregnancy. They were young girls aged between 13 and 16 who had been raped by friends. When we investigated what was happening we realised that the boys had the power. A group of friends could be having a party; the girls probably were not drunk but perhaps they were in love with a 17-year-old boy and things went too far. Even though the girls said no, they ended up in a gang bang with their friends. The girls are 13 years old and their lives are destroyed. Why is that happening? What is happening between young people? We could, of course, take the legal route through the courts and tell the boy that he is 17 and he was responsible for the situation. However, the girls do not want to do that.

1409.

They do not want to be raped once more by a police investigation or by a court. Why is childhood and youth being sexualised? It is because the Internet and commercial magazines are flirting with it? Is it because of the Lolita element in music? A commercial industry is promoting the idea of sexiness at the age of 13.

1410.

We must start to work on such cases. If we do not, the promotion of that idea will continue. Cases such as Peter, aged 17, which are brought to court simply pour water on the fire. However, there will be new fires. By having an overall, holistic approach, we try to identify, on a macro level, where the wider political and private sectors can take responsibility.

1411.

We interviewed the 134 cases and asked why the court system was not trusted. The young people said that the court would presume consent because of the way they had been dressed. I asked the lawyers in my office to go through the court judgments on rape cases over the past five years. The purpose was to see if there was a negative impact linked to how a person was dressed or to how they behaved that could have reduced the penalty for the perpetrator.

1412.

That report has been widely discussed by the Norwegian court system. They have tried to shoot me down, but the conclusion is that children younger than the age of 13 trust the court. The findings were very clear: how a person was dressed or whether they had taken a drink had no positive or negative effect on the case.

1413.

However, things change from the age of 14 upwards. The court seemed to treat those young people as if they were adults aged 18 and over. The debate is active. I was able to raise awareness with the professionals and judges through the report. A report is a good way to raise professional and political awareness. It can change society so that rape among friends can be stopped.

1414.

Teenage pregnancy is not a huge problem in Norway, for many reasons. However, we do have individual cases.

1415.

The Chairperson: It might be useful if you told the Committee about your role in the debate on the reduction of the age of consent to 15?

1416.

Mr Waage: Most of the cases we are working on stem from the children and young people themselves. During busy times, our telephone lines handle up to 160 calls a day. Individual cases also come in. We must ensure that a public system which is supposed to help children and families is functioning. That is our role.

1417.

In a post-conflict situation, you must ensure that the system is available and trustworthy. The police, the court system and advisers must be trusted. It is my task to ensure that it is working for the best interests of the child.

1418.

I understand that the age of consent here is 17. In Norway the proposal was to lower the age of consent from 16 to 15 and to bring it into line with EU standards. There was a debate on that. It did not come before the Norwegian Parliament because on that same day the proposal was announced, our switchboard was jammed with girls calling to ask us to stop the proposal.

1419.

We then developed a way to use the children's expertise and competence in such an issue, which is about their own lives. One of the dialogue instruments that we are currently testing is the Internet Parliament involving every school council in Norway. The Ombudsman's office has been campaigning for school councils, established by law, in every primary and secondary school in Norway.

1420.

By law a school council starts from the fourth grade. It is used for democracy training and citizen leadership. It is also the instrument for involving young people in improving their work place. All school councils can use the Internet Parliament to vote on issues that are due to come up in the real Parliament. The results of the test voting were that 90% of young people were against lowering the age of consent. That is a strong argument.

1421.

When I reply on the Internet, I do not use bureaucratic language. I write in a language that children can understand. If I did not write in that language, they would criticise it and come up with a proposal about how it should be written. I then ask students to discuss the matter in their classes for three weeks, and on 22 August they can vote electronically. Two hours later on 22 August I can go to the Parliament and give the opinions of the young people. Some parliamentarians in Oslo would say that this is too complicated an issue and young people are not mature enough. But the young people would say that it is their life and that they know what they are talking about. I would also say to Parliament that it has ratified conventional children's rights and children should be heard.

1422.

Mrs Courtney: I find that most interesting. You said that children are taught their rights in the school curriculum. Is that in primary and secondary school? Do you visit the schools?

1423.

Mr Waage: It is on the curriculum in primary and secondary school. We have been working on changing the curriculum in Norway to allow children more freedom to design their own learning processes. We have reduced the strict curriculum and opened up project sites so that children can decide what kind of ethos they want to take into the learning process which is located in the local environment. Many of the projects are about rights and the Ombudsman. It is also part of the curriculum in the primary sector.

1424.

Mr Shannon: What created the need for the establishment of a Children's Ombudsman in Norway? I note that you have 15 members of staff and run an office with a budget of £700,000. Are the majority of calls to your office from children or from parents who are concerned about their children?

1425.

Mr Waage: I have arguments for and against setting up the office. There was no accident or big event which initiated the Ombudsman debate. It was part of a lengthy discussion in the 1970s revising the Children's Act. It was based on the fact that children had no voice. They were seen as objects that belonged to the family rather than as individual subjects. It was also a way of opening up. I am not saying that the state entered into controlling families as part of public order. Children must have a decent environment to be raised in. We must have a way in, and that means giving children a place to go that they can trust.

1426.

That was the general discussion in the 1970s that led to the legislative proposal. Politicians of the time were courageous in that they did not create legislation running to 15 pages. I have been invited to many drafting committees discussing legislation for Ombudsmen in Germany, Poland, Flanders and the Irish Republic. Perhaps the issue is obscured by that of children's rights, but it seems to me they are trying to create a new General Ombudsman for children. In Norway that was impossible, because you are not supposed to have two Ombudsmen with the same mandates and powers - one for adults and one for children. The General Ombudsman is also responsible for children in the cases he deals with.

1427.

What is the extra factor with the Children's Ombudsman? Openness, moving along with developments and our proactive side have been our successes in Norway. Countries with very detailed legislation have tied their Ombudsmen's hands by excluding certain issues; he becomes a non-thinking Ombudsman. One needs courageous politicians to accord the office or person the necessary freedom.

1428.

When the legislation is in place, the next step is how to identify the person for office. That is a constant debate in Norway. You must apply for the job of Ombudsman in Norway; the discussion is very open, and the media and the newspapers have their candidates, as do individuals. Candidates are assessed on how they want to shape the office and what their concept of the future is. Candidates are then screened by an independent group and, according to legislation, a name is put forward to the King. In reality that means the Cabinet, and it makes the appointment.

1429.

Funding is then issued without the Ombudsman being bound to do anything. No one can instruct me as Ombudsman. Governments come and go, but the Ombudsman sits out his period in office. Of course, if I am found in the park, drunk and naked or whatever - which can happen with politicians - they would probably raise the possibility of my leaving office.

1430.

This proactive way of approaching childhood is very important and brings an additional factor to the office of Ombudsman. When asked outside Norway about my relationship to the General Ombudsman I frequently stress the importance of that when framing legislation. A new institution for children will always mean conflict with the Human Rights Commissioner, the Equality Commissioner or someone else.

1431.

You must be clear about the bodies and the role and you must act with openness. However, one should not allow the office to fall between two stools - it should be lifted up. It came out in a fruitful discussion I had with the UN Human Rights Commissioner, Mary Robinson, that without children's rights, there are no human rights. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is not simply an additional piece of paper, but a human rights document about respect, trust and the dignity of the human being. In Norway, when the first Ombudsman was to be appointed, there was a big discussion about the person. The person must be visible to the children, yet he or she cannot travel all the way round north Norway. A flight ticket from Oslo to a northern city in Norway costs as much as flying twice to Rome.

1432.

The first Ombudsman was a psychologist, although that is not a requirement for the job. He could be a taxi driver, or from any profession, and that is how it should be. The second one was a children's TV personality and entertainer, so it was difficult at times to see which hat he was wearing. In a few months the office was very well known, and I had the very easy task of going into an office which was prepared. It is also important that children know my face and know that this office is not just more bureaucracy.

1433.

To illustrate how my office works, I have said that it is like a small sailing boat on a dangerous coastline in bad weather threatened by some 10,000 tonne tankers called the Norwegian education system, the Norwegian health system and the Norwegian tradition. Something which is flexible, innovative, holistic, futuristic is needed to make them change course. I know that that sounds a little bit floppy, but it is the vision of our office to be in front of development.

1434.

Mr Shannon: May I have your views on the parents coming in?

1435.

Mr Waage: There was an enormous debate in the seventies over whether it would take away parental authority if an Ombudsman's office were set up. It was asked if we were giving children the right to attack their parents? A second point was made that we were taking away important work from the voluntary sector, and a third was that the money used to run this office could be used to help children. Those were the three main arguments against setting up the office.

1436.

What happened? The parents are still the best allies we have in working with children. Parents come to my office for advice. Some of them are there for parents' rights more than children's rights, but we can see that, and we use the time to talk to them and change them, not to fight with them. We trust parents to get the message across that parents are not the office's enemies rather our companions.

1437.

Having a child today in Norway is the most important family project ever; it must be a success. We have never had so many educated parents in Norway. They want the best for their children, and they are frustrated because there is a new parenting role that they cannot find. They cannot run back to the sixties, see what their parents did and try to do the same with today's children. An important role of my office, and that of my advisors, is, through the media, advising parents, giving them the trust to believe in themselves and not get frustrated.

1438.

A few months ago I was in a school having a meeting with children and parents. In came this 12-year-old boy with "saggy trousers", a cap and a skateboard. That was OK; that is part of a 12-year old's life, but behind him was someone just the same only taller, and that was Daddy. He had decided to became a friend instead of a parent. That was his way of coping with his role as a parent - being cool. When I left home I had a map and a compass because we had good co-operation between my parents and education, and it was much easier to look into the future. I had, in a way, a very easy start.

1439.

Today I have a 15-year-old girl. The only thing that I can give her is a good compass which does not start to spin around every time there is a new Diesel jacket or a new Nokia product passing by. She will be able to keep on the right path. The only thing that is certain is that everything is uncertain. That is the struggle that parents are dealing with today. We have a very important role as parents, and I like that role because we are guiding children towards being parents themselves. That is important. More than ever clear- headed parents are needed, not parents who have abdicated or are going for the cool, friendly things. You need someone who can communicate. I am not talking about smacking; I am talking about communicating and guiding the young ones.

1440.

Mr Maskey: I have a number of questions. Normally we say that we blame the parents, but on the issue of "saggy" trousers, we would have to blame the child. You mentioned the so-called friend rape; I believe that that is a serious problem in France and perhaps in some other European countries. What practical steps are you taking with other countries that have that type of problem to analyse it and make recommendations for dealing with it? I am using that as an example of how you might relate with other countries.

1441.

Mr Waage: We carried out a report on what is happening in the courts to gather evidence to show that we can trust the court system. That is an important message for young people. We investigated court cases and found that we can trust them. Do not hesitate to go to court.

1442.

Secondly, we asked the Minister of Justice to come up with a training programme for the police because the kids did not trust the police. They felt that they were raped because of their mistrust. We must have investigation methods which are respectful towards children because this is very difficult to talk about. They are working on that. As a result the police will probably have a special unit for children to deal with sexual abuse and rape, et cetera, which is good.

1443.

Thirdly, we also must have discussions with the media, so that parents can be made aware of what is happening on Friday nights. They need to know if something is changing with their daughter or their son. They also need to have a way to start communicating with their kids. The final thing is to start working on the industry which is imposing the new non-respectful image of how you treat your friend. That is the most difficult issue, but the debate that there has been since this report, since we made the cases public in March 2000, has been frantic. I am quite impressed by the way in which the newspapers, which have a lot of power, have angled and supported the Ombudsman's work on this. More or less everyone has. This is not about pointing the moral finger, it is about human rights, children's rights and respect. It is nothing to do with whether you are Conservative or whatever; it is about having respect for a child.

1444.

Mr Maskey: Given the powers of investigation that your office has, would you say that they are adequate? Could you give an example of where you have sought discovery of documentation or evidence from any organisation, Government Department, or elsewhere? Could you give an example of where your powers were not adequate to get to the truth of any matter that you wanted to engage in investigating?

1445.

Mr Waage: I am not sure that I understand your question.

1446.

Mr Maskey: You have powers and the responsibility to investigate allegations of abuse, neglect, et cetera. Are they sufficient to allow you to do your job? Can you give an example of an instance where you sought to carry out an investigation and found that your powers were not enough to enable you to get the relevant information?

1447.

Mr Waage: No one can hide information from the office. We have never experienced that. If we need details of the investigation or background detail, we get it. No one has so far dared to challenge that right, which is reflected in the Norwegian Act.

1448.

If I had to appear officially in court in Norway, or somewhere else, I would need to reduce the proactive side. I would use more resources and need more staff and lawyers to work on those cases. In some cases we feel that the courts have absolutely no concept of a child's rights. I could appear officially in court, but that would completely change the remit of the office.

1449.

Moreover, the court system would never accept it because it wants the Ombudsman to be outside the court system. We analyse a case afterwards, and when we suggest a change in practice or criticise the court, that is taken into consideration.

1450.

The real power is not in the Ombudsman's office, but in Parliament. I report to Parliament. I also co-operate with the research institution. The good thing is that research is about yesterday's problems, whereas I deal with today's problems through my communications with children in Norway. Those two instruments are very strong when we put forward evidence combined with the results of our investigations. We are taken very seriously, and we have sufficient respect in society. We are serious and not ad-hoc workers. When we issue a statement, the status of the Ombudsman means that it is taken seriously.

1451.

Mr Maskey: You mentioned an impressive range of issues that you have dealt with over the years and how you work with young people. You can only carry out a certain number of functions at any given time. Given the limitations to your budget and staff do you work in a formally structured way with young people in setting the priorities for your office?

1452.

Mr Waage: Yes. We have a very strong structure for the priorities that we set for the coming year called focus areas. We have eight main focus areas that we work on all the time. Although we have limited resources, I do not want a large office. I want an office with professional people who are not bureaucrats, but who are trustworthy and flexible. If we grow too much and become a new Ministry, we automatically reduce power, trust and respect in the office.

1453.

The most important matter that we are working on is utilising the resources in the kids themselves by strengthening the school democracy councils and setting up the Internet Parliament. We include children in all hearings. We arrange local hearings around Norway and bring the kids out of school to attend. It reveals to society, and especially the media, that they are resources. Children are portrayed so negatively that it is important for us to let them show us what they can do - if we let them. That is what I call the hidden resources of society.

1454.

Norwegian oil supplies will run out in 20 years or so, but we have other untapped resources. We have 429 principalities in Norway, and 170 of them have local Parliaments. Young people do have power - they have the budgets, and they make decisions. The Mayor is there.

1455.

When they take responsibility, very often they do not copy how grown-ups work, they find their own way. When we do that, we see the change of ownership. They have ownership and a completely different attitude towards their school; the graffiti is gone because it is their school, not your school.

1456.

That is the change of attitude, or image, of the child. We want to lead children from the education system and let them out when they are well enough to go into society. In this "waiting room" they are not yet adult, not yet competent, not yet, not yet, and they feel a "not yet" attitude. That is strong. Then they start to do such things as paint graffiti - things they should not do, and I would do the same.

1457.

Mr K Robinson: You are welcome, and you have brought a breath of absolutely fresh air to our deliberations. We have been snowed under for weeks with piles of paper and some very good briefings from a wide range of bodies, but to hear from someone who is dealing with the problems has given us all a great insight.

1458.

You come from a very different culture. We tend to have a "blame culture" in Northern Ireland, and we are always blaming someone, some group or some institution. That has almost been reflected in our deliberations until now. We seem to have created a human rights industry here, and we focus on public bodies' lack of response to young people, their past failings and their potential failings. There is perhaps a reason for that. What has brought children's rights to the centre stage is the fact that we have learnt, and learnt brutally, that for a long time children have been abused, particularly in areas of trust where society has placed them, and the children have been unable to respond.

1459.

We come to this almost with a guilt complex, but what you are saying to us is taking us beyond that context. Annie Courtney brought up the matter of private industry, private commerce and the pressures they put on young people. A graphic example is the dress code. We have a body of opinion that says that school uniform should not be worn, that it is old-fashioned, dated, et cetera. The argument against that is that everybody wears the same, everybody is treated equally, and the costs are kept down. There is a debate about the truth of that.

1460.

You show a pressure on our young people that my generation perhaps does not understand. They must conform; they must have the skateboard; they must have the outfit. Are we missing the point? Are we focusing too much on the public bodies, their failings or potential failings, and missing the drastic influence at an early stage that private industry has? We are inexperienced in that area. Do we say to the private sector "You have a responsibility. You are helping us to create society, and these are some of the problems you are giving our young people"?

1461.

Could we tease that one out first? I really would like you to expand even more on that. We have focused almost totally on the success or failure of the public agencies and perhaps on the voluntary agencies which have tried to address those failings. You have opened a new dimension for us today.

1462.

How effective has your office been? Have you ways of monitoring that?

1463.

Mr Waage: That was an interesting summing-up. If I had said something like that, I would be very proud. It is important that the legislation enables us to take a proactive role. Our base is what comes in from the young ones. Many of those matters cannot yet be dealt with in Parliament, because then we would be regulating everything in society. We do have a private sector which does not necessarily have evil thoughts about exploiting children or young ones. It is a commercial interest, however, and for many of them the pressure is great. Some conflict with the expressed values of society. While those values are not reflected in concrete regulations, we have had, among other things, to bring about a change in attitudes.

1464.

That is placing awesome responsibility on the private sector. We must not have too strong a belief that public bodies can help everything. I have the freedom to address the president of Nokia or another industry and call them for meetings. We can have good discussions. The main thing is that we play on the same ground and have the same goals. They are amazed at the things that come in from children, and the discussions are usually started in an easy way.

1465.

If they do not follow my advice, I can use a power that is not contained in the Act. I can say to the media that I had a meeting with the president of a company who declined to co-operate with children. That is payback time. I had a meeting with UEFA (Union des Associations Européennes de Football). It was a sport club but now it is more of a sports industry. UEFA identifies kids aged 11 or 12, and those children mean somewhere in the region of £51 million for the organisations. This has happened in Norway in the past five years.

1466.

Things may be more strict here. In a meeting in January with UEFA representatives I told them that there should be a payback to the children for all the money that UEFA earned from them. The payback is that UEFA should shoulder the responsibility of the children's growing up and going into sport, and it should be a fair-play system. Money and being famous are not the only important factors; it is also important to have a team that plays together and has fun. That is payback time.

1467.

UEFA representatives very often say that they do not have these types of discussions inside families. They say that someone from the outside should have those discussions, the Human Rights' Commissioner or the Ombudsman? They do respect the children, and I know that from information from kids. I am using that play in Norway now, and it is very important.

1468.

Mr K Robinson: Will you talk about the evaluation and how successful it has been? You have the Internet connection with young people, and that is a tremendous step forward. How do you prevent that from being abused by pressure groups? Telephone polls, for instance, are carried out here, but it is obvious that a particular pressure group is pushing its model and thoughts along the line and we are not getting a truly reflective view of society. How do you guard against that?

1469.

Mr Waage: That is not easy. If one wants to lobby it seems that the first thing to do is have a pooling of all the questions, and they appear on the front page everywhere. I am trying to keep my office away from that. If you go along that route, you lose the seriousness that is needed to be an Ombudsman.

1470.

The parliamentarians must respect what we are doing and listen to and read about it. I deliver a political report every year. This year's report is called 'Ongoing Childhood'. It is about the sexualisation of youth and the failings of the child welfare system. It is also about preventative work; raising a child is preventative work. Children should have a degree of normality as they grow up.

1471.

We are giving the politicians the negative side, but we are also suggesting ideas for improvement. As a result of this report the Government are focusing on children in the next election. We can hear our arguments in the politicians' speeches, and that is good. When that happens I feel that we have achieved success, we have made it.

1472.

Many pressure groups criticise the Ombudsman. I read a newspaper this morning on the Internet about a pressure group for children with chronic diseases which approached my office four months ago about the situation in hospitals. It stated that I had not responded well enough. The pressure group has to find someone to criticise, and that is the Ombudsman. If groups want attention in the public arena they often go through the Ombudsman's office. Television stations cover some cases because it is public information. Often groups write to me and see their story in the newspaper the following day, because we are not allowed to withhold that information. An individual case is taken out of that information base.

1473.

Mr Beggs: You have really brought the role of Ombudsman to life. It has been talked about, and it is in paper, but you have helped to put the bones on it. You have demonstrated many of the necessary qualities that someone in that role should have. Do you agree that a Children's Ombudsman should be child-friendly, independent and media-friendly? Those qualities have helped in establishing a new office and improving access. I detected a non-party political skill, with a small "p". You are obviously skilled in networking, involving and influencing people. They are essential qualities. What other qualities are essential to be a successful Children's Ombudsman?

1474.

Mr Waage: Access to children is crucial. The office has to be available for children. As an Ombudsman I must be available for phone calls and meetings. If children come to talk to you, you have to talk to them. They should feel that they are being taken seriously. The office should be equipped with proper funding to enable it to develop dialogue with young people. It is important for them to know that you are available.

1475.

These are Norwegian examples. It is a different setting in Northern Ireland due to the conflict. I can act well in many cases because I have a system which takes my recommendations seriously. Public systems have been set up to help children in crisis. My task is to see why those systems are not functioning properly. Is it due to lack of funding or is it the profession? Is the education system not functioning well enough? Do we need to bring in psychologists? If you do not trust some public bodies, I can understand that you may need to set up a special body for children. In Scandinavia we have been working very much on the proactive side as well as on the reactive side. People grow tired of you if you act as a watchdog that bites every day. If you represent children and you are going to be a spokesperson for children, you must also represent the vision of the children for the future. That combination is very important.

1476.

Mr Beggs: Sometimes children who have been brought up in unfortunate circumstances repeat the mistakes of their parents. Have you been able to address that or get involved in that in Norway? We have lessons to learn, and we should be more proactive. Finally, you said that the five main parties in Norway have given children's issues number one priority. What are the current issues in Norway? I am curious that this has happened after 20 years. What level have you now reached with children's issues? What are the current priority issues? Northern Ireland is at least 20 years behind Norway, but I hope that we will not take 20 years to catch up.

1477.

Mr Waage: The most important case to be discussed in the election campaign is the education system. You have heard that before. As you may know the election campaign started with the Norwegian constitution itself - by law you build a country, then the traditionalists said that by religion you build a country and then we had slogans saying that by education you build a country. The latest thing is that by IT you build a country. We are saying that it is with children that you build a country. The education systems need to be changed, especially secondary education because we are producing losers and creating failures, and that has consequences for life. We should not be allowed to do that.

1478.

I will tell you a story which was reported in a newspaper lately. I receive many letters from children in crisis, but I received one fantastic letter from a child who has been enduring her crisis for 10 years. She has been bullied in a school, and her only therapy has been writing. She sent me such a powerful letter that we almost needed help in my office to read. It was fantastic to see how Maria, aged 15, had survived 10 years of enormous harassment. You would not believe the awful stories. It was like 'Lord of the Flies', which is a nice story compared with her life.

1479.

In Scandinavia if a Minister misuses his credit card it can become front page news, and the Minister has to resign. If a Minister builds a garage or an extra room without paying for it, he has to leave office. If a child is bullied for 10 years and tries three times to take her life, although she has a supportive family, no one takes responsibility - no one has to leave office. It is more important to keep his taxi receipts in good order. Politicians have to take responsibility. I went to the school she has attended for the last five years, talked to the headmistress and asked her if she had seen the bullying. The headmistress replied that she had seen it but had thought that the girl was strong enough to cope. Should she have avoided responsibility because she was not a professional? Everyone had seen the bullying but had done nothing. Someone should take the responsibility.

1480.

Mr Beggs: On the question of who should take lead responsibility, it is difficult to judge whether to allow children to resolve their own conflict - provided it does not go beyond the bounds. In the case you are talking about it was obvious that the conflict was more than just children interacting. There were indications that it was severe bullying.

1481.

Mr Waage: To return to your question. You were asking about issues at election time. Bullying, education, children in a divorce crisis are three issues. We have a good nursery system. It is very expensive in Norway, and I understand that it is also expensive here. Sweden has made a decision that shocked Norway. The Government in Sweden decided that the maximum rate for public kindergarten should be £110 per month. We pay from £350 to £600 per month.

1482.

On the Internet this morning a newspaper reported that the Prime Minister had stated in his election campaign that he would half the price of kindergartens. I have had meetings with party leaders, and they have invited my staff and me to planning meetings to get background information for their campaigns. We will give advice to any party. These are the crucial issues. They also use our reports, which are very political. They also find that commercial pressure is part of the task.

1483.

Mr Beggs: Are proper parenting skills and training part of your role as the Children's Ombudsman?

1484.

Mr Waage: In Norway you need a certificate to have a dog. If you do not have a training certificate, you cannot have a dog. That is an example of a pressure group. You do not need a certificate to have a child, and I do not think that you should. If you incorporate how to be a parent into the education system, which is what we have been asking for in secondary and high schools, you can then change the social negative line. Attitudes are passed from generation to generation so the education system is crucial for helping to change attitudes. That is why we are discussing incorporating parenting skills into the education system now. Perhaps this could become more important than maths. It is much more important than how many cities there are in Belgium. Things are constantly changing in Belgium and Europe. You can now get updated for 10 cents on the Internet. The new generation knows how to get information. It may know the capital city of the United Kingdom, but it is not taught how to tackle a complex society and how to tackle conflicts.

1485.

Challenging the education system is important. The Minister of Children and Family Affairs produced a parenting package of books, videos, tapes for health centres. It is free to use, and often groups of parents of newborn babies form discussion groups for the first two years. Now the nurses in health centres have asked them to extend that to eight years, and journalists are being invited to become involved. In Norway the media and, particularly, newspapers have changed. They now write about children. How to raise a child is a very hot topic, and they want the 10-point rule.

1486.

We have been working with the media, but we have to be careful of the regulations the media have created. There is no reflection there of children's rights. There was an enormous case a couple of years ago in which a mother used the front page and middle page of one of the biggest tabloid papers in Norway to write about how negative the system is. She had a premature child. and she was revealing all the details about her. The child was nine then and at school. Suddenly everyone knew that she was premature and found out her faults. She was then bullied.

1487.

I attacked the newspaper asking how it could just take care of the parent. The paper stated that in its rules if a parent gives permission, it can print the story. I raised the issue with the council of journalists, and it has now, after a long process, taken our recommendations on board. Now children's interests must also be taken into account. We are working on another big case involving small schools out on the west coast. There is a proposal to close these schools down to reduce costs by $250,000 or £100,000 over eight or ten years.

1488.

This means that the children will have to go to school by bus and ferry every day. One of these schools is moving the children for up to four hours a day from the public school to a new central school. I went on the news and said that there should be a maximum time for children travelling to and from school. I challenged the Minister of Education to set up a group of officials to investigate it. Taking four hours out of children's lives each day is stealing an important part of their childhood. They should be with their parents or out climbing trees or playing football or Pokemon or whatever. You cannot play Pokemon on the bus. This is a case for the Ombudsman; he is the only one who can bring it up.

1489.

The Chairperson: Mr Waage, our time is almost up, but I would like you to answer one question for the record. You have tenure of office of four years. Is that sufficient time?

1490.

Mr Waage: Around Europe there are different time limits on the office. In Norway you can have two terms - eight years altogether. All three of us who have held the office think that eight years is enough. You need to bring in new minds that think differently to keep it proactive and keep up dialogue with the young ones. Therefore, you need new people.

1491.

You also need the flexibility to have people in the office employed on a term basis, so that you can bring someone, like a deputy, in with you. When I came to do the job there was a set group in the office. One person did not like my vision of the work, and we came into conflict, which the newspapers revealed. You should look at how can you bring in someone that you can work with, because so much depends on a person's ability and vision.

1492.

Sweden has two terms of seven years, which is too long. You need three years to get on top of the job. It is a long climb. I came from the international environment, working with UNICEF and Childwatch International. My whole professional career has been in the field of children's issues, but I still felt that I belonged to a family with the researchers. You have to go through all the sectors and finally feel comfortable talking about health and the media, as I am doing today. You need two to three years to get warm and get an overview of the job. Then you can have four active years. We had a debate when the whole thing was elevated in 1995, and we ended up saying that eight years was a good time, not more not less.

1493.

The Chairperson: Thank you for coming to the Committee. I am sure that the evidence you have given will be very useful when we are drawing up our report. As I said earlier, we will try to learn from your mistakes and do the things that you have done right. We hope that we will catch up with you once we have our Children's Commissioner in place