AUDIT COMMITTEE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
WEDNESDAY, 17 JANUARY 2001,
ROOM 144, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
1. Apologies
2. Draft Minutes of Meeting of 5 December 2000
3. Examination of the Northern Ireland Audit Office's Annual Estimates 2001/02
4. Matters Arising
5. Chairman's Business
6. AOB
Present: Mr John Dallat,(Chairman)
Mr Billy Hutchinson, (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Derek Hussey,
Mr Mark Robinson,
In Attendance: Mrs Eileen Sung, Committee Clerk
Mr Colin Jones
Dr Andrew Peoples
Apologies: Mr Gerry McHugh MLA
9.40am meeting opened in public session - Mr Dallat in the Chair.
1.Apologies
Apologies are listed above.
2.Draft Minutes of Meeting on 5 December 2000
The minutes were agreed and signed.
3.Examination of the Northern Ireland Audit Office's Annual Estimates 2001/02
As part of the Audit Committee's statutory duty to examine the expenses of the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO), senior officials from the NIAO attended to brief members on their Estimates for expenditure in 2001/02. The following officials attended: John Dowdall, Comptroller and Auditor General; John Savage, Director of Personnel; and Caldwell Steele, Personnel Officer.
10.25am Mr Robinson joined the meeting.
11.00am Mr Hussey joined the meeting.
Members' questions covered the following areas:
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the effects of devolution and the forthcoming Government Resources and Accounts Bill on the NIAO's workload;
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ways in which the NIAO could be more proactive;
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potential improvements in asset management by departments resulting from Resource Accounting and Budgeting;
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the NIAO's annual target for publishing reports on departmental performance;
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mechanisms for bringing NIAO's concerns to the Assembly's attention;
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the costs of NIAO staff training;
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expenditure on IT software for electronic audits and future savings to be generated from these;
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revenue generated from work done for the National Audit Office;
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the costs of auditing cross-border implementation bodies;
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identification of topics for inclusion on future work programmes;
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follow-up arrangements to ensure the implementation of agreed recommendations by departments;
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liaison with Internal Audit Units in government departments; and
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the validation of departmental performance against Public Service Agreements.
Members noted correspondence from the Public Accounts Committee, stating that they were content with the NIAO's Estimates. Additionally, members considered correspondence from Department of Finance & Personnel (DFP). The NIAO Memorandum examined by the Committee outlined the Estimate in cash terms and noted the non-cash elements at Paragraph 5. The final NIAO Resource Estimate will include non-cash costs under Annually Managed Expenditure, and although the presentation of the Resource Estimates has still to be decided, DFP was content for the Audit Committee to examine the Estimate Memorandum subject to the AME costs and presentation of the printed Estimates being agreed at a later date.
It was unanimously agreed that "the Audit Committee approves the Northern Ireland Audit Office's bid for the net amount of £4.609 million for inclusion in its overall estimate for 2001/02." Additionally, the Committee approved the additional funding of £50,000 detailed in the Memorandum, to be submitted as a supplementary estimate during the year.
Members agreed that, as the additional funding of £50,000 had been approved, there was no need for an additional meeting in the autumn, when the supplementary estimate was to be submitted. However, it was agreed that the Chair should write to DFP asking why they had chosen to proceed in this way and indicating that, in future years, the Committee would prefer not to approve and submit separate Estimates to the Assembly.
Action: Clerk
The C&AG expressed concerns that the new resource accounts may not be readily accessible to MLAs, unless DFP ensured that they were presented carefully. It was agreed that the Chair would write to the Department to ask whether they could offer training to MLAs on the interpretation of the new structure of accounts and to obtain further detail on the presentation of the Estimates. The C&AG's view was that the Estimates needed to be annotated with explanatory notes to assist MLAs.
The C&AG undertook to inform the Chair as to whether DFP intended to publish a Public Expenditure White Paper for the forthcoming financial year.
4.Matters Arising
The Chair updated members on the recent passage of the Government Resources and Accounts Bill through the Assembly. Mr Dowdall informed members of the Minister for Finance and Personnel's new proposals to grant the C&AG inspection rights beyond the accounts of all public sector bodies, to bodies "undertaking functions of a public nature" or "substantially funded from public money." In respect of bodies in receipt of "significant" public funds, his Department would facilitate inspection by making an Order when necessary.
11.40am Mr Dallat left the meeting and Mr Hutchinson took the Chair.
Members agreed that, whilst these proposals still gave DFP some discretion on the C&AG's access, the new powers of inspection envisaged were probably as far as the legislation could go without the need for further public consultation and were beyond the access currently available to the C&AG at Westminster.
Members noted the Minister's commitment to re-examine this area in the Audit Reorganisation Bill, having taken account of the forthcoming Sharman Report. It was agreed that the Committee's ultimate objective was to attain access for the C&AG as stipulated in the Chair's letter of 10 November 2000, to the Chair of the Finance and Personnel Committee. Mr Hussey informed members that, as the Finance and Personnel Committee had not yet seen the Minister's revised proposals, their original amendment to Clause 18 would be included in their published Report on the Bill.
Members noted that the Clerk had contacted the Clerk of the Public Accounts Commission at Westminster. A one-day visit to Westminster, at which members can learn more of the remit of the Commission, which has a similar role to that of the Audit Committee, would be arranged for Spring. Following the visit, the Clerk would prepare a paper outlining the areas into which the Committee could extend their remit and the legal mechanisms for doing so.
It was agreed that, as the Chairman would be visiting the Dáil shortly as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, he could update members on the workings of the Public Accounts Committee in the Dáil, at the next meeting.
Members noted that the Motion to increase the C&AG's salary for the current financial year had been approved in the Assembly and that DFP had calculated and paid arrears as an ex gratia payment, as approved by the Committee. Members agreed the wording of a draft motion to be laid by the Chairman to enable the Committee to approve salary increases in future years, having regard to advice from the Department of Finance and Personnel. However, it was agreed that this may require an amendment to Standing Orders to allow the Audit Committee to approve this without annual referral to the Assembly. The Clerk will write to both the Clerk of the Committee on Procedures and the Legal Adviser for advice on how a possible change in Standing Orders could be affected.
Action: Clerk
5.Chairman's Business
Members noted that, as discussed at the last meeting, the Chairman had written to the Minister for Finance and Personnel to clarify the arrangements for any future appointment of a new C&AG and the legal position re the salary of any future incumbent. However, it may take some time for a response to be received.
Members agreed that whilst the Audit Committee had a role to play as a filter for MLAs to approach the NIAO, the Public Accounts Committee was the best vehicle to ensure an interface between the NIAO and MLAs, and members should be encouraged to go through the PAC with any concerns, to ensure a consultative mechanism. This would not however preclude MLAs from contacting the NIAO directly.
6.Any other business
The Deputy Chair asked the Clerk to take forward the issue of MLAs missing Committee meetings as they were on Assembly related business elsewhere.
Members agreed that the Chair should discuss the issue of adult literacy and numeracy further with the C&AG, with a view to having a value for money study carried out in a particular area such as adult basic education.
Members asked for the regularity of future meetings to be established to enable members to plan ahead and therefore ensure attendance.
Action: Clerk
Members noted a Press Notice issued by the Chairman prior to today's meeting.
12.20pm the Deputy Chairman adjourned the meeting.
JOHN DALLAT
Chairperson, Audit Committee
29 March 2001