ASSEMBLY AND EXECUTIVE REVIEW COMMITTEE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
TUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2008
Room 21, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Mr Jimmy Spratt (Chairperson)
Mr Raymond McCartney (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Alex Attwood
Mr Simon Hamilton
Mrs Carmel Hanna
Mr Danny Kennedy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Alan McFarland
Mr John O’Dowd
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr
Mr Brian Wilson – at the invitation of the Committee
In Attendance:
Mrs Nuala Dunwoody (Clerk Assistant)
Mr Stephen Graham (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Oliver Bellew (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Miss Carla Campbell (Clerical Supervisor)
Ms Lynn Gray (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Paula McManus (Clerical Officer)
Miss Annette Page (Clerical Officer)
Apologies:
Mr Alex Maskey
The meeting opened at 11.02am in public session.
The Chairman indicated that there had been a formal request from the media to film at least part of the Committee’s proceedings.
Agreed: Members agreed to the request for a limited period.
1. Apologies
Apologies are detailed above.
2. Minutes of Proceedings of meeting held on 11 November 2008
Agreed: The Committee agreed the minutes of the meeting held on 11 November 2008.
3. Matters arising
There were no matters arising.
4. Correspondence
4.1 Members noted a letter, dated 11 November 2008, from the Chairperson to the First Minister and deputy First Minister in relation to their attendance at the meeting of the Committee on 18 November 2008.
4.2 The Chairperson also advised Members of an e-mail that the Clerk had received from Dawn Purvis on 14 November 2008, tendering her apologies for today’s meeting. Ms Purvis had also requested a briefing from the Clerk on the proceedings of the closed session of the meeting.
Agreed: Members agreed that since the discussions, to be held in closed session, were to be treated in strict confidence, it would not be appropriate for the Clerk to brief Ms Purvis.
5. Devolution of Policing and Justice Matters
11.08 am Mr Wilson joined the meeting.
The Chairperson welcomed Brian Wilson to the meeting.
In relation to the issue of the devolution of policing and justice matters, the Chairperson declared the following interests:
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board
The Chairperson invited Members to declare their relevant interests.
Members declared the following interests:
Nelson McCausland
- Member of Belfast District Policing Partnership
Ian Paisley Jnr
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board
The Chairperson briefed the Committee on the arrangements for the discussions with the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, and reminded them that the discussions would take place in ‘strict confidence’.
11.11 am The meeting was held in private session.
11.13 am The First Minister and deputy First Minister joined the meeting.
The Chairperson welcomed the First Minister and deputy First Minister and they made a brief opening statement on matters relating to the devolution of policing and justice. This was followed by a question and answer session. At the end of the discussions a letter, and a supplementary document, from the First Minister and deputy First Minister were circulated to Members.
11.56am The First Minister and deputy First Minister left the meeting.
11.56 am Mr Wilson left the meeting.
There was some further discussion in closed session.
Agreed: Members agreed that the Chairperson should write to the First Minister and the deputy First Minister to seek clarification on a number of issues.
12.05 pm Mr Kennedy left the meeting.
12.06 pm The meeting was held in public session.
12.18 pm Mr McFarland and Mr McCausland left the meeting.
12.20 pm Mr McFarland left the meeting.
5.1 Committee Briefing Paper on Short Term Forward Work Programme
In relation to the issue of the devolution of policing and justice matters, the Chairperson declared the following interests:
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board
The Chairperson invited Members to declare their relevant interests.
Members declared the following interests:
Nelson McCausland
- Member of Belfast District Policing Partnership
Ian Paisley Jnr
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board
Members considered a Committee Briefing Paper containing proposals for a Forward Work Programme.
Agreed: Members agreed the proposed Forward Work Programme.
Agreed: Members agreed that the Committee should publish two reports, the first of which would deal with its consideration of the Category One List of Issues, with a view to seeking a debate on that report, in plenary, in mid January 2009.
12.26 pm Mr Attwood left the meeting.
12.28 pm Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting.
5.2 Resumption of discussions on the Devolution of Policing and Justice Matters
Agreed: The Committee agreed to resume detailed consideration of the Category One List of Issues as represented in Committee Briefing Paper 11/08/09, and beginning at Issue G.
5.2.G What should be the structure of the Policing and Justice Department, and what functions should be placed there and/or OFMDFM?
12.32 pm Mr Attwood rejoined the meeting
12.34 pm Mr Kennedy rejoined the meeting
There was some discussion on Issue G.
Agreed: Members agreed to seek clarification from the First Minister and deputy First Minister in relation to the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission.
Agreed: Members agreed to return to Issue G at a future meeting.
5.2.H What arrangements need to be in place to ensure that effect is given to Recommendation 28 of the Committee’s original report that Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly should cease to be members of the Policing Board or any District Policing Partnership, at the point of devolution?
There was some discussion on Issue H.
Agreed: Members agreed to re-word Issue H to read:
What arrangements need to be in place to ensure that members of the statutory committee for any new department which would exercise functions relating to policing and justice matters should not sit, simultaneously, on either the Policing Board or any District Policing Partnership at the point of devolution?
Agreed: Members agreed to return to Issue H at a future meeting.
The Chairperson suspended the meeting at 12.54pm.
The Chairperson resumed the meeting at 1.36pm with the following Members also present:
Mr Raymond McCartney (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Alex Attwood Mrs Carmel Hanna Mr Nelson McCausland Mr Alan McFarland Mr John O’Dowd
5.2.I How, and when, should the financial negotiations with the NIO be conducted, and by whom?
There was some discussion on Issue I.
Agreed: Members agreed that it would be useful to have the financial information, supplied by the NIO during the original Inquiry into the devolution of policing and justice matters refreshed.
Agreed: Members agreed to return to Issue I at a future meeting.
5.2.J Should any budget be ‘ring-fenced’?
There was some discussion on Issue J.
Agreed: Members agreed that Issue J and Issue I were inter-related and that the Committee’s consideration of both issues should be addressed further when it came to consider the Category Two List of Issues.
5.2.K When should the previously agreed range of policing and justice matters, identified at Recommendations 2 – 17 of the Committee’s original report cease to be ‘reserved matters’?
There was some discussion on Issue K.
Agreed: Members agreed that the range of policing and justice matters, identified at Recommendations 2 – 17 of the Committee’s original Report would cease to be ‘reserved matters’, at the point of devolution.
1.47 pm Mr Paisley Jnr rejoined the meeting.
5.2.L Is there any requirement for a ‘shadow Minister, a ‘shadow department’ and a ‘shadow Statutory Committee’?
There was some discussion on Issue L.
Agreed: Members agreed that there was no requirement for a ‘shadow Minister, a ‘shadow department’ or a ‘shadow Statutory Committee’.
5.2.M Is there a need for further clarity of the powers to be devolved, and, if so, should they include matters relating to the Public Processions ( Northern Ireland) Act 1989, flags and symbols and recruitment to the PSNI?
There was some discussion on Issue M.
Agreed: Members agreed to return to the issue at a future meeting.
1.57 pm Mr McCausland left the meeting
5.2.N What needs to be done to ensure that attention is given to having appropriate measures in place to address issues such as community safety; attacks on the elderly and other vulnerable groups; anti-social behaviour generally; sentencing policy within the judicial system; community confidence in policing; the role of the security services; and all-Ireland policing arrangements?
There was some discussion on Issue N.
Agreed: Members agreed that it would be proper for any new department to have policies in place to deal with these issues, other than those relating to ‘security services’ and ‘all-Ireland policing arrangements’, which are due to be considered as part of the Category Two List of Issues.
Agreed: Members agreed that, for the purposes of its report, it may be appropriate to disregard the former element of Issue N and to deal with the latter element of Issue N as part of its consideration of the Category Two List of Issues.
5.2.O What procedures and protocols will there need to be between the Minister, an Assembly Committee and any newly established department and its associated agencies?
There was some discussion on Issue O.
Agreed: Members agreed that it would be helpful to have sight of protocols and memoranda which deal with the sharing of security service intelligence, a matter which had been raised in the Committee’s original Inquiry.
Agreed: Members agreed to re-visit the issue again at a future meeting, possibly in the context of the Category Two List of Issues.
2.07 pm Mr Attwood and Mrs Hanna left the meeting.
2.08 pm Mr Kennedy rejoined the meeting.
5.2.P Should the “triple lock” within the Executive apply to the decisions of a Policing and Justice Minister?
There was some discussion on Issue P.
Agreed: Members agreed to return to the issue at a future meeting.
5.2.Q Is there any requirement to seek to have any ‘excepted matters’ devolved?
There was some discussion on Issue Q.
Agreed: Members agreed to return to the issue at a future meeting.
5.3 The Clerk informed the Committee that, in re-presenting the Composite List of Issues in three categories, he had omitted to include some matters outstanding from the Committee’s original report.
Agreed: Members agreed that the Clerk should re-work the Committee Briefing Paper to include:
- the status, and independence, of the Public Prosecution Service;
- the arrangements for appointments to the Policing Board;
- the arrangements for appointments to the Police Ombudsman’ Office;
- matters raised by the NI Law Commission; and
- matters raised by the NI Legal Services Commission.
2.16 pm Mr Attwood and Mrs Hanna returned.
6. Category Two List of Issues
6.1 Committee Briefing Paper on the proposed handling arrangements for the consideration of the Category Two List of Issues
Members discussed the Committee Briefing Paper in some detail.
2.21 pm Mr Kennedy left the meeting.
2.23 pm Mr Hamilton rejoined the meeting.
Agreed: Members agreed that it would be useful to clarify the respective roles of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the Minister for Finance and Personnel and the Assembly and Executive Review Committee in terms of work required on finance matters.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that it should involve itself in gathering financial information from the twenty eight organisations presently providing the range of policing and justice services in Northern Ireland.
Agreed: Members agreed that, before gathering that financial information, the questions suggested in the Committee Briefing Paper, should be ‘quality assured’.
Agreed: Members agreed that once that ‘quality assurance’ was secured, the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson had authority to agree the terms of the letter which would commission the information.
Agreed: Members agreed that it was not necessary to invite views from the twenty eight organisations presently providing the range of policing and justice services in Northern Ireland on matters relating to the appointment of the Attorney General, and judicial appointments, or on North/South and East/West relationships.
2.28 pm Mr McCausland left the meeting.
2.29 pm Mr Paisley Jnr left the meeting.
7. Any other business
The Chairperson advised Members of the forthcoming visit by the President of the European Parliament, on Monday 24 November 2008.
The Chairperson also advised Members that details of Members’ attendance at Committee meetings, between 3 September 2007 and 31 August 2008, would be published on the Committee website on 21 November 2008.
8. Date, time and place of next meeting
The next meeting will be held on Tuesday, 25 th November 2008 at 11.00am in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.
The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 2.33pm.