3.

asked the Minister of the Environment what measures is he taking to encourage developers to use brownfield sites for new developments?

(AQO 271/02)

The regional development strategy sets an aspirational target of 60% of new urban housing growth in settlements of population of 5,000 or more, to be accommodated in existing urban limits as defined at the 2001 baseline year. That has been referred to as the brownfield target. The strategy also advocates that the potential for achieving the target is to be assessed through the development plan process using urban capacity studies. My Department is already carrying out urban capacity studies in association with the preparation of current plans. These will be published along with each draft plan to provide the public with the technical reason behind the choice of housing sites. My Department adopts a sequential approach in allocating lands for housing in the preparation of development plans.

Urban capacity studies form the important first stage by identifying potential sites within the urban limits. Allowance is then made for windfall sites - for example, sites in urban areas that become available over the course of the plan period due to unforeseen land use changes.

Lands are allocated on greenfield sites, including locations where extension to existing settlements may be necessary to meet the balance of housing growth as identified in the regional development strategy. Land is allocated for housing in the development plan in phases. The emphasis in the first phase is on the development of land in the existing urban limits, which will ensure that priority is given to brownfield sites in the allocation of land for urban housing growth.

Other measures could be taken to encourage people to use brownfield sites. Does the Minister agree that the best incentive to encourage people to do that is to veto greenfield sites?

That is the fascinating dimension of planning: the tensions all around. Ms Lewsley would prefer developers to be encouraged to use brownfield sites only, whereas others want to use greenfield sites as well. Planning depends on striking a balance between conflicting and competing demands: urban and rural; and sustaining the environment while providing for economic growth. Many and varied tensions must be resolved, and, although I welcome Ms Lewsley's suggestion that there may be other options, my solution to urban capacity studies, windfall land and greenfield sites focuses my mind on brownfield sites.

The Minister accepts that it is important to encourage developers to build on brownfield sites. Does he accept also that there are problems because many area plans are out of date? Does he, therefore, accept that it is urgent that up-to-date area plans be drafted so that brownfield and greenfield developments remain in proper proportion?

Although I do not wish to be disrespectful, my answer will be brief. Dr McCrea, the Chairperson of the Environment Committee, is correct. Many of the plans are out of date, so new plans need to be drafted quickly. If anyone objects to a plan, it goes to a public inquiry, and, as always in planning, many people object. However, I agree with Dr McCrea's remarks.

Will the Minister tell the House what steps he is taking to ensure that town cramming - and I mean town cramming, not town planning - resulting from an overprovision of high-density developments or apartments, which are out of keeping with an area, is avoided?

General planning law provides various policy planning statements (PPS). For example, PPS 7, 'Quality Residential Environments', deals with the problem of town cramming - plans for new buildings must show their relationship with existing developments. Also, the Department for Regional Development is introducing PPS 12, which takes a holistic view of the need to provide a suitable environment, with green areas and space, for those who chose to live in urban areas. Therefore there are various means of ensuring that town cramming is avoided.

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4.

asked the Minister of the Environment to make a statement on any meetings which have taken place with district council environmental departments regarding waste disposal and recycling.

(AQO 267/02)

My Department has regularly met representatives of district councils, mainly through the strategic inter-group forum, which comprises representatives from the Department and the three waste management partnerships. The forum was established to assist with the implementation of the waste management strategy, which was published in March 2000. Recently, it has focused on finalising the partnership's waste management plans and funding.

Recycling is a significant element in the three final draft plans that were submitted to the Department at the end of June 2002. The allocations to councils under last year's waste management grant scheme were largely spent on the infrastructure needed to support those recycling targets. A similar pattern of expenditure is expected this year. Officials and I have met with individual councils and groups of councils about a range of waste management issues. Waste management is a standing item on the agenda of my quarterly meetings with the Northern Ireland Local Government Association. My Department and I value such close contact with councils, because it is vital to the successful implementation of the waste management strategy.

I was aware that some work was being done, but I was unaware of its extent, and I thank the Minister for that.

Does the Minister agree that educating the public is another essential part of the strategy in the development of waste disposal and recycling? Will he give me some idea about what is being discussed in his meetings on that subject?

I agree that it is important to educate the public, and I thank Mrs Bell for her complimentary comments about how far the process has moved. We are all part of the waste problem; therefore, we must all be part of the solution. We must be aware of the contribution that we can make. Resources have been spent on public awareness, and £1·5 million is available for that over three years. Surveys on our Wake up to Waste campaign showed that there was 30% more use of waste disposal and recycling units in certain district council areas, for example. Other statistics show that people are more aware of the need to deal with waste. Therefore we are confident, to a certain extent, of a heightened awareness of the problem of waste. It is now for this Administration, working with the three partnership councils that are legally responsible for waste disposal, to develop plans that will bring us to the point of reducing, reusing and recycling waste.

Go raibh maith agat. Will the Minister detail what funding support packages are available for education and awareness?

I must have wax in my ears today, because that is the second time that I have had difficulty understanding Mr Murphy. Could he speak slightly louder?

What funding support packages are available to district councils for education and awareness?

As I said, district councils contribute to that. The funding that is available is primarily for councils to begin implementing waste management plans - for example, we have a waste management grant scheme that goes to councils, for which £3·85 million is available this financial year. However, that is still awaiting the approval of the Department of Finance and Personnel. Public awareness is dealt with through schemes funded by the £1·5 million that I mentioned to Mrs Bell. A total of £7·4 million is available for various measures to ensure that there is education about waste management and various available methods of dealing with waste.

The Minister will be aware of district councils' growing problems with refrigerators and freezers - one is tempted to say that the figures make chilling reading. Will the Minister tell the House what steps his Department is taking to comply with the proposed EU Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive on the disposal and recycling of refrigerators and freezers?

If the Member were referring to washing machines, I would ask the Minister to come clean about it.

Do you want me to come clean about that, Mr Deputy Speaker? When the Member mentioned chilling, it reminded me of something that my daughter said to me the other day. I was getting a little animated, and she said "Take a chill pill, Dad"; in other words, she said that I should chill out. Perhaps that is also appropriate.

The disposal of fridges and freezers has been a problem. Grants totalling £250,000 have been made available to district councils for that, and we are awaiting the return of tenders for a contract to deal with that problem. We anticipate that we could be in a position to have the outstanding fridges dealt with by an all-island contract towards the end of the year.

I have listened with interest to the Minister's replies. Does the Minister not think that a regional approach to waste disposal and recycling would be much better than having three different councils involved in the programme?

Secondly, it is not possible to meet the EU Directive unless the disposal of recyclable items is honestly dealt with. Recycled glass and waste paper have always had an indifferent market. Has the Minister researched whether proper recycling markets can be established, on a wider basis than this region, which would make it possible to meet the requirements of the Directive?

I appreciate Mr Gibson's question, as he deals with the nub of the issue - the regional basis of waste disposal and recycling. He mentioned also the possibility of carrying out research in other regions. I have considered other areas and found that two traits arise throughout Europe and the rest of the world. The first is that it takes up to 10 years to get to the required standard, and the second important point is that there is a three-way split in waste disposal, the first two of which account for 30% each - recycling and landfill. The remainder is a gap that is filled, even in the most environmentally friendly countries, by what is called waste to energy; thermal; or that encapsulating word "incineration". Dr McDonnell found his visit to an incineration plant in Copenhagen very informative.

There are problems to be solved, and we must bite the bullet. The volume of our waste is much too high and must be dealt with. Compared with an average of 30% of waste going into a hole in the ground in Europe, 95% of our waste follows that route. We have a long way to go, and we must be realistic about the matter.

On the issue of sustainable markets, £1·4 million out of that £7·4 million is allocated to providing such markets for recycled goods. I have considered the issue throughout Europe and further afield, to Japan, to find out how the most developed and environmentally friendly countries deal with waste. We have a long way to go to reach that standard.

Mr Dalton is not in his place, so I call Mrs Carson.

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6.

asked the Minister of the Environment, in relation to the proposed Tappaghan Mountain wind farm application, why the Northern Ireland Tourist Board was consulted, as it had not previously been consulted on wind farm planning applications.

(AQO 232/02)

While it is not always the practice to consult the Northern Ireland Tourist Board in relation to wind farms, the Department considered it necessary to do so in County Fermanagh because of the number of wind farm planning applications, the quality of the landscape and the need to protect natural tourism assets.

The proposed wind farm at Tappaghan Mountain is one of three current planning applications for wind farms in County Fermanagh. The Northern Ireland Tourist Board is being consulted about each of these proposals in order to obtain information required to arrive at a planning decision.

I am delighted that consultation is being carried out with the Tourist Board, as Fermanagh depends greatly on tourism. Does the Minister agree that consultation with the Tourist Board should continue in respect of the erection of all wind farms across the Province? Our renowned landscape will be spoiled. Will the Minister undertake to explore and, perhaps, seed-fund other forms of renewable energy, especially from farmyard waste?

That is another fascinating question about renewable energy. Northern Ireland is a region of the United Kingdom, which is the fourth richest economy in the world, and therefore much energy is needed. The question is how we provide the energy, whether it is renewable energy, or fossil fuel, which adds to carbon dioxide emissions. Those are fundamental questions that need to be asked. Mrs Carson mentioned consultation on wind farms. If a windmill is made of two or more turbines connected to a wind farm, or if a windmill has only one turbine, but is in excess of 15 metres high, an environmental statement must be made requiring consultation. Mrs Carson's question fundamentally concerned the forms of renewable energy. That is a fascinating question that is easy to ask, but difficult to answer.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. If there is to be a preponderance of wind farms in areas such as Fermanagh, principally because of the lack of areas of outstanding natural beauty (AONB) status, and because companies carry out very limited consultation with local people, the Minister will find that, although we are all for green energy, there will be difficulties in the coming years in locating green energy generators in the right places. Lack of AONB status could mean that the tourism value of places such as Fermanagh will be destroyed by the preponderance of wind farms.

I assure Mr McHugh that the tourism dimension is very important, although it is not within my remit. The tourist industry in Northern Ireland makes up a small proportion of the gross domestic product (GDP) compared with Scotland. If we could raise that to the same level as in Scotland, the industry would be much enhanced. This raises the matter of wind farms on the north coast. The wind turbines can be seen on the horizon on the Glens of Antrim as one travels up the M2 to the Antrim coast. With regard to sustainable development, a balance must be found between sustaining the economy and protecting the environment. The protection of the environment is an essential, axiomatic element of tourism.

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7.

asked the Minister of the Environment to detail the circumstances in which his Department will permit an increase in the section 115 limit imposed on district councils for expenditure on special purposes; and to make a statement.

(AQO 239/02)

Section 115 of the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 makes provision for district councils to incur expenditure for special purposes. The legislation imposes a limit on such expenditure in any one financial year, equivalent to half a penny in the pound on the rateable value of the district. The Department advises councils of this figure at the beginning of each financial year. I have no power to increase this statutory limit, but there is a case for reviewing the provision as the limit was fixed many years ago. I will address the matter when the appropriate legislative opportunity arises.

I thank the Minister for his detailed answer. Does the Minister accept that councils should be empowered to act to ensure well-being? Councils should have the maximum opportunity to decide how to invest ratepayers' money on priority local concerns, in the best interests of the community.

The Member used the words "maximum opportunity", but in the context of section 115, the advice is that councils should ascertain the extent of other statutory powers before making recourse to section 115. For example, the new Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill proposes enhanced financial powers with regard to economic development. That is a possible way to deal with the matter.

I welcome the Minister's statement. Derry City Council has discussed the matter quite a bit because of concerns for people who were away from home, and whom we could not visit. I welcome the fact that the Minister will review this aspect of local government, and I look forward to seeing that happen in the next Assembly.

Again, I thank Mrs Courtney for her comment, rather than her question.

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8.

asked the Minister of the Environment what measures he proposes to reduce the time taken by the Environment and Heritage Service in providing responses regarding planning applications.

(AQO 234/02)

Together with the Planning Service, my Department's Environment and Heritage Service has reviewed the effectiveness of the arrangements for consulting on planning applications. The review identified weaknesses in the consultation process, most of which were attributable to resource pressures in the Environment and Heritage Service. It also identified some areas where improvements could be made quickly.

To address the pressure, a bid for additional resources was made in the spending review 2002. The proposed allocations to my Department in the draft Budget do not suggest that it will be possible to meet the resource pressures. However, I will not be able to come to a definitive conclusion until the Budget is finalised later in the year.

The Environment and Heritage Service and the Planning Service are introducing early improvements that are not dependent on new resources being obtained.

Will the Minister specifically examine the number of planning applications in the Carrickfergus town centre area, where the Environment and Heritage Service has engaged consultants to work on its behalf? When the developers get the problems identified by consultants out of the way and they are about to progress, they suddenly find a new set of problems. That has resulted in some applications being in the system since around 1999.

First, I have one general point. There are approximately 3,400 applications a year. Some of those involve the built heritage and some involve the natural heritage, so there are in total 5,236 consultations. There are not many staff to deal with those, the same problem that applied to a previous question.

I am conscious of 4 Governors Place in Carrickfergus. That is a rather complex planning application because it involves demolition, retention of listed buildings and some apartments. The Environment and Heritage Service consulted a second time on that. I understand that the planners will meet the architect to see if we can reach a best outcome. That meeting is forthcoming. However, I stress that there are always tensions in planning that must be resolved.

I am afraid our time is up. Mr Sean Neeson was to come next, and I assume that the Minister will respond with a written answer.

That is my regret.

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Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill: 
Consideration Stage

Madam Deputy Speaker:

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments and will note that there is only one amendment for debate. That will be debated when we reached clause 5. The questions on whether clauses of a Bill stand part will be taken at appropriate points in the debate. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

No amendments have been tabled to clauses 1 to 4. Therefore, I propose by leave of the Assembly to group those clauses for the question on whether they stand part.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Before I move the amendment, I want to say that it is very regrettable that the Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development Committee has absented himself from the House and is not here to respond to my amendment. I am moving the amendment in response to the Committee's views, which I have taken seriously.

Will the Minister give way?

It is regrettable that the Chairperson is putting his own party political stunts ahead of his duties to the Committee, the Assembly and to -

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister to make a comment against the Chairperson when she is not fully aware of the circumstances of his absence?

The Chairperson of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee is meeting the Security Minister on important matters, including that of the Claudy bomb allegations.

Thank you, Mr Berry, for giving us details of the whereabouts of the Committee Chairperson. Minister, please continue.

I beg to move the following amendment: In page 3, line 35, at end insert -

The amendment relates to clause 5, which deals with compensation for existing businesses. Clause 5, subsection (3), provides that the Department may make a scheme to provide for compensation for those affected by the ban on fur farming and sets out what such a scheme shall include. In its scrutiny of the Bill, the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development thought that it would be desirable if the Bill were to make express provision so that a compensation scheme would specify a deadline after which no payments would be made. I have accepted the Committee's view on that and propose that the Bill be amended by the provision of a new subsection (4) to clause 5.

The amendment does not affect the substance of the Bill. It is a clarification of the terms to be included in any scheme that the Department may make.

I call the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development, Mr Savage.

The Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development (Mr Savage): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given the reason why the Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development was unable to attend, will the Minister withdraw her remarks?

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Member gave the reasons why the Chairperson was not available in the Chamber. The point of order you raise is not a point of order. There is no Standing Order referring to that. I call Mr Savage.

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Did the Minister not refer to the Chairperson carrying out stunts, and she knows perfectly well that that is not the case? Would she now have the good grace to withdraw the scurrilous remarks she made?

In my view the reason is academic; as Chairperson of the Committee, he should be here to respond to the amendment.

I move to - [Interruption].

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister said that the Chairperson was carrying out "stunts". She can twist and turn all she wants, but we are simply asking her to withdraw those remarks. He is not participating in stunts; he is at another meeting.

Order. That is not a point of order. It refers to remarks that were made. We will look at Hansard and come to a conclusion on that.

I thank the Minister and her Department for tabling the amendment. It is what Committee members wanted.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the amendment. Every member of the Committee agreed that it was necessary for animal welfare, and to ensure that no one could start a business anywhere in the North to get compensation after the Bill was enacted.

That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

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Company Directors Disqualification Bill: 
Further Consideration Stage

Madam Deputy Speaker:

No amendments to the Bill have been tabled. The Further Consideration Stage of the Company Directors Disqualification Bill is, therefore, concluded. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

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Children (Leaving Care) Bill: Final Stage

The Minister of Health, Public Services and Public Safety (Ms de Brún):

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Molaim go ritear an Bille Páistí (ag Fágáil Cúraim) anois. I beg to move

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Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults Bill:
Committee Stage (Period Extension)

I beg to move

The Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety is examining the Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults Bill. It is a significant piece of legislation and runs to over 50 clauses. The Committee warmly welcomes the Bill, which contains important provisions to enhance the protection of children and vulnerable adults. The Bill breaks new ground, and it is important that the Committee be able to devote sufficient time to scrutiny of its provisions, and to discussion of the impact it will have on organisations working with children.

Related issues include whistle-blowing and the making of disqualification orders for persons deemed to be a risk to children. In order to be satisfied that the Bill can fully deliver on its intent and provide safeguards for vulnerable young adults, the Committee asks that the Committee Stage of the Bill be extended to Friday 22 November 2002.

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Agriculture (Amendment) Bill: First Stage

Mr Armstrong:

I beg leave to lay before the Assembly a Bill (NIA 10/02) to include horses within the definition of agricultural animals; and for connected purposes.

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Does that include donkeys or just horses?

That is not a point of order: that is information, which you had the opportunity, I assume, of seeking from the Member.

The Bill will be put on the list of pending business until a date for its Second Stage has been determined.

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Fire Services (Appointments and Promotion) (Amendment)
Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002: Prayer of Annulment

Mr Berry:

I beg to move

Members of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety had differing views on the motion: some were for and against it; some were for and against the Regulations. My Colleague, Iris Robinson, Committee members from the Ulster Unionist Party and I have made our concerns clear. The Fire Services (Appointments and Promotion) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002 were brought before the Committee in July, just before recess, and several members raised concerns at its motive, particularly at this time.

Concerns were raised about the equivalent experience and qualifications required, article 39 of the European Community Treaty, and the need to maintain the morale of firefighters. Concerns were raised by the Fire Brigades Union about the poor consultation on the Regulations put before the Committee. Some Committee members, including myself, asked if this was a political move by the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.

The Regulations provide for equivalent "experience" and "qualifications". Members are aware of the many tragic incidents that have taken place in Northern Ireland over the past 30 years and more. One thing that has held Northern Ireland together is the experience and dedication of our firefighters across the board - regardless of religion. We had, and still have, conscientious, eager and professional firefighters.

There are questions about the definition of equivalent "experience" and "qualifications": there is no clear definition in the Regulations. The legal teams of the world will tell us that it is not important to include a clear definition. However, the Fire Brigades Union, my Colleagues and I believe that this is important.

The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is throwing the responsibility for determining equivalent experience and qualifications to the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland selection panel. The Fire Authority has expressed several concerns about that - and I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you will have noticed those in the press recently. The responsibility should not be left to the Fire Authority: there should be a clear definition of the equivalent experience and qualifications required in the Regulations.

Members may ask what the equivalent experience and qualifications are. We were told that Her Majesty's Inspectorate would be able to provide guidance, but that will not be the case. Her Majesty's Inspectorate will not be able to provide guidance to the panel as stated by the Department in its letter to the members of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety. The Fire Authority for Northern Ireland has been advised of this, and I would like that clarified today.

No other profession in the country would permit outside entry at its highest level. It is like asking a road engineer to become head of brain surgery at the Royal Victoria Hospital: it is complete nonsense. Northern Ireland must have someone who is able for the job. In Northern Ireland there are men and women from each side of the community who would be capable of doing the job.

Article 39 of the European Community Treaty brings in the issue of the Good Friday Agreement. The post of Chief Fire Officer was previously designated as a public service post, so why is that not the case now? It is a public service post in other brigades in the United Kingdom, including London. Departmental officials told the Committee that the situation in Northern Ireland had changed since the Good Friday Agreement, and that therefore this exception was no longer justified. That is a joke, because we have seen how the Belfast Agreement has delivered anarchy, not just over the past couple of days in the Building but throughout the community. Article 39 must remain for security reasons.

Over the six years since the signing of the agreement, the level of violence has increased dramatically. There are more bomb attacks than ever, blast bombs have been fired at firefighters, there are daily attacks on firefighters, there is regular terrorist targeting and training, there was the incident in Colombia with FARC, and there are many other issues.

The Chief Fire Officer must remain in close contact with the Chief Constable and the General Officer Commanding in talks on many sensitive security matters. It is a delicate post. It is a crime to throw away the article and open the gate to anyone outside the UK. A person from Northern Ireland would be best for the post, given the security problems and the trouble on the streets.

It is ironic that the Regulation has not been introduced anywhere else in the UK. Departmental officials told the Committee that other Departments in the UK are examining this, but that is all they are doing. This is a political move by the Sinn Féin/IRA Minister.

Firefighters' morale is low as a result of attacks on them across the country. Career development and progression is greatly promoted in the Fire Service in Northern Ireland. Many male and female firefighters have worked through the ranks to senior positions, hoping that some day they will gain further promotion, but, if the Regulation is enacted, it will send out a message from the Department that no firefighters in Northern Ireland are capable of doing the job.

People have said that it does not stop anyone in Northern Ireland from applying for the position, but the fact that the Minister is trying to move the Regulation to open up the position of Chief Fire Officer to anyone outside the UK is a clear political sign. It is also a sign that she thinks no one in Northern Ireland is capable of filling the position.

Does the Member appreciate that it is important to employ someone who is capable of interacting directly with the Chief Constable in this role? The Member has already identified that, but the Minister does not interact with the Chief Constable except for guldering at his officers on the steps of Stormont. It would be useful to have someone who could interact appropriately with the Chief Fire Officer, especially in the event of a strike. Vehicles have been set aside for the police to do the job if that happens. It is, therefore, essential to have the right people interacting with the police at the right time.

I wholeheartedly agree. The way the Minister shouted at members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland on Friday was a disgrace. The Health Minister's attitude was despicable, and she showed her true colours in the way she acted against the forces of the law.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Chief Fire Officer of Northern Ireland must be able to deal directly with the Chief Constable. It is clear that the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety does not take the opportunity to do that. Given the current possibility of a strike, we need someone who can interact closely with the Chief Constable and the General Officer Commanding. Therefore, I fully understand Mr Paisley Jnr's remarks.

Concern was raised by the Fire Brigades Union. When the issue came to the Committee's attention, I spoke to representatives of the union, and I was astonished to learn that they knew nothing about the Regulation. Members might ask why the union needed to know about the Regulation. The bottom line is that the Fire Brigades Union, which represents 95% of all firefighters in Northern Ireland, has the right to know about any changes. The decent thing to do would be to let them know that the senior post of Chief Fire Officer was open for appointment.

When the Regulation and the Department's two amendments appeared, I asked the officials whether the Fire Brigades Union had been consulted; it had not. It was consulted after the Regulation was drafted in the middle of July. However, its representatives first found out about the Regulation when I approached them. I find it grossly insulting that the Minister and her Department did not consult the union sooner rather than later.

We must ask whether the Regulation is a political move. I have no doubt that the smokescreen of the Minister, her Department and others will be to say that they have received legal advice, and that retaining the existing qualifications required for Chief Fire Officer could have legal implications. The Committee received weak legal advice. The advice, which was consistent with that given to the Department, was that

This does not make it clear that retaining the existing qualifications would be illegal. The word "probably" cannot be justified. As far as I am concerned, the legal argument is flawed; it is a smokescreen raised by the Department and the Minister. The Minister's ultimate goal is political. This is a political move against the UK Fire Service, but she is going through the back door. Other members of the Committee and I do not buy it.

The Department keeps telling us that it is examining it, and that other Departments are examining it. Nowhere else in the United Kingdom has this taken place; only in Northern Ireland. We must zoom in to see the real problem, which is that we have a Sinn Féin/IRA Minister in the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety who is prepared to promote such issues for purely political reasons. She is prepared to forget about the morale of the firefighters and everything else in order to push this Regulation through for political reasons.

There are people in Northern Ireland and in the Northern Ireland Fire Service who are capable of filling that senior position, no matter what religion they are. We have had people capable of this position in the past, and if it were opened up again, we would have capable candidates today.

I am concerned that disciplinary action was taken against the two acting Chief Fire Officers.

Is it a move to discredit the two gentlemen already in post? I should like the Department to clarify that today, for it stinks right through the whole system. There could be political moves on the part of the Minister to push this through.

I trust that the whole House will back us, and our motion, today. I also hope that it has listened clearly to the Fire Brigades Union, which represents 95% of firefighters in Northern Ireland. If we say that we are ignoring their views and do not agree with them, their morale will be very much affected.

Many men and women have enjoyed career development and progression through the Northern Ireland Fire Service. Are they to be told that they might not have the opportunity because the Minister intends to open the floodgates and let anyone across the world apply for the position? In the Northern Ireland Fire Service we have men and women capable of taking on that position.

Today the Department must throw away the Regulations and forget about the flaws and the legalities of the whole thing; that is a smokescreen. The Minister and her Department must look to the Northern Ireland Fire Service for the position of Chief Fire Officer. We have the men and women who are capable of it.

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