Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 24 September 2001 (continued)
Sir Reg Empey:
The hon Member draws attention to a serious problem. As Mr Mallon pointed out in his opening remarks, 24% of adults in Northern Ireland have some degree of difficulty with reading, writing or numeracy. That is a staggering statistic.
Through the Department for Employment and Learning, the Executive have received detailed advice from the basic skills unit. Using this advice and taking account of developments elsewhere in the UK and Europe, including the Republic, we will develop a detailed strategy and action plan that will be subject to extensive consultation by the end of this year.
The key elements include new basic standards in the curriculum; raising the esteem and improving the standards of basic skill tutors through a new professional qualification; challenging targets for improving basic skill levels; a strategy for co-ordinating activity across Government; and the engagement of the education training community, trade unions and employers in tackling this key issue.
We are aware of the extent of the problem, and we are taking action to improve the low levels of adult literacy and numeracy. That lies at the heart of improving economic competitiveness; it is impossible for people to advance personally and improve their social development without it.
Mr McGrady:
I thank the Ministers for the comprehensive and complex development of the Programme for Government, although it will require further study with the programme in one hand and the proposed draft Budget in the other.
5.15 pm
Under the chapter heading 'Working for a Healthier People' the draft Programme for Government states
"We will work to contain waiting lists at current levels."
That refers to hospital waiting lists. Last Tuesday's debate showed that there is great concern in the community about waiting lists - they are not being contained. Since the basic structure review will not take place until the end of 2002, or perhaps not until the end of 2003, there is an immediate concern about how efficiency will be implemented and about how the minor restructuring can take place. The only other option is unlimited finance, and that is not open to us. What new measures do the Ministers intend to take to reduce the appalling escalation in the waiting lists, as it is affecting every family in the community?
Mr Séamus Mallon MP:
When we think of waiting lists we tend to think of people waiting to get into hospital or waiting for treatment. However, people, especially the elderly, must also wait to get out of hospital and back into their homes. It is easy to upbraid a Minister for not making provision for waiting lists or provision for the elderly or for young people when one knows that the money is not available. We must recognise that.
I am sure that many new medical techniques and ideas are being developed. However, one element will not change: without the money we shall not be able to pay for them. If we prioritise these things - and they should be priorities - we shall to have to de-prioritise other things. That is not of much help to the Member; he knows that I am not an expert in these matters. Only by making enough money available can we begin to deal with the health of our community.
Thus ends my popularity in the Executive.
Mr Poots:
I am not sure whether this question goes to the huffer or the puffer. I welcome the commitment to adopting a strategy for children and the consultation that is to take place next spring. When is the strategy likely to be in place?
Section 7.3 sub-priority 1 of the draft Programme for Government states
"We will modernise government and make it more open and accessible for the public."
Under that sub-priority you say that
"We have set a target for all departments to make 25% of their key services available electronically by 2002 and 100% by 2005".
The Prime Minister said that 25% of all services would be available electronically by 2002 and 100% of all services by 2005. Why is there a difference?
When will the review of public administration get off the ground? It has been talked about for some time. I understand that there is not even agreement on the terms of reference.
Sir Reg Empey:
On 28 August 2001 Mr Mallon and I launched a publicity campaign for the consultation document 'Protecting Children's Rights - A Consultation paper on a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland', and we look forward to hearing responses to that document. It is an innovative step that could have national implications, because there could be changes to criminal law as a result of it. That would be a matter for the Secretary of State. Mr Mallon and I have discussed the matter with the Secretary of State and with officials, and we hope that after the consultation, proposals will be brought forward that will advance the issue.
A Children's Commissioner for Wales has been appointed. However, in the light of the feedback that we will receive, we hope that we will be in advance of many areas. We know that Sweden and other countries have had children's representatives for some time, but we will be well ahead of most of our colleagues.
With regard to e-government, we have developed a corporate strategic framework that provides the foundation for the co-ordination of the delivery of Government services electronically, taking into account such issues as social inclusion and freedom of information. We will implement corporate IT standards, facilitate work between Departments and better enable the delivery of electronic services. I hope that that is also happening at local authority level. No doubt the Member will be leading the way in the borough of Lisburn as we progress. We have set a target for all Departments to make 25% of their key services available electronically by 2002 and 100% by 2005. We will monitor progress towards achieving that target.
The Executive are already committed to the review of public administration. As I said previously, my Colleague, Mr Foster, has specific responsibility for local government, and he is already working on it. The review will take place, although we are aware that there are uncertainties within the local government system, and we would like to move rapidly towards its resolution.
I am hopeful that we will have the terms of reference finalised as the year progresses. However, I point out to the Member that, as the recent review of the hospitals by Dr Hayes shows, the administration of health services are a part of all of this, as is the huge area of education and its administration. We are anxious to ensure that this is an integrated review, not a piecemeal one. It is better to get the concept right than to get it quickly.
Mr Molloy:
Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the two Ministers for delivering the draft report on behalf of the Executive. It is a good document containing much information. Many questions will come out of it, and I am sure that the Committees will be dealing with it in their various ways.
Have the Executive adopted the recommendations of the Finance and Personnel Committee in relation to public-private partnerships (PPPs)? I refer not just to the equality impact that the document mentions on page 131, but to the other recommendations in regard to contracts and the best use of public money in building new schools or hospitals under PPPs. The Committee carried out an extensive consultation on PPPs, and I hope that the Executive will include it in their consultation.
What additional money is being put specifically into targeting the cross-departmental themes in the Programme for Government? To return to the issue of the Health Service, and taking a rural area west of the Bann, it is clear that if it takes until December 2002 to implement a new acute services plan, there will be longer waiting lists and a larger problem, but fewer hospitals to deal with it. We need to rebalance services now to ensure that some of those hospitals are still viable by December 2002. The local government review is awaited with anticipation, but we should move away from expensive reviews on everything and spend the money on practical action on the ground.
Mr Séamus Mallon MP:
I thank the Member for his questions, of which I have identified at least four. I will start with the last one on the local government review. It is not a local government review, but a review of administration in general. It is a mistake to look at it as simply a review of local government. We have committed ourselves to that review, and we hope that it will be done thoroughly - not at great expense, but so that we get it right. I agree with the essence of what the Member says. Very often, reviews go on forever, resulting in glossy documents that often have no substance, and which are often wrong. I prefer to get it right rather than to get it glossy.
The Member also mentioned acute hospital provision west of the Bann. I am not competent, nor do I have any authority to make any judgement, but it is clear that the sooner consultations are over and informed decisions can be made, the better. We will all try to ensure that that will be done as speedily as possible. Cross-cutting themes are a budgetary matter. I will ensure that that is dealt with tomorrow and that the information is made available.
To answer the Member's first question, in line with the commitment made in last year's programme, a review of public-private partnerships (PPPs) and private finance initiatives (PFIs) has been established. The group, jointly chaired by the Economic Policy Unit (EPU) and the Department of Finance and Personnel, will meet for the first time on Wednesday. It plans to conclude its work by February 2002. The group, which will be widely drawn from the private sector and will have a representative from the social partnership, will explore the policy, the economic and social issues behind the policy and the opportunities to use private finance in all major services.
The group will develop the equality impact assessment in line with the explicit commitment in the Programme for Government to carry it out. In carrying forward that work, the group will also take account of the detailed report on the issue, which was rightly produced by the Committee for Finance and Personnel. That report usefully set out many of the key issues that must be considered and collected a wide range of views on the complex matter. I thank the Committee for initiating that investigation and report and for making the report available to us.
Places on the working group have also been offered to the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Their answer is awaited. It is sincerely hoped that they will join the group, because we will then get the most comprehensive view of what may be possible as a result of the consultation.
Mr McClarty:
I also welcome the respective statements of the acting First Minister and the acting Deputy First Minister, particularly the parts that relate to the economy. With the deterioration in the world economy, are the Ministers confident that the new Programme for Government does enough to ensure that the economic progress that we have experienced in recent years will continue?
Sir Reg Empey:
The Programme for Government contains a section on securing a competitive economy. As I said in my opening remarks, there has been remarkable progress in recent years. Northern Ireland is no longer regarded as the sick economy that it once was, with high levels of unemployment, many leaving these shores because of the lack of jobs, and being well behind in a range of areas.
However, we cannot be complacent, because there is still an overemphasis on traditional businesses, which leaves us vulnerable to world and market trends. It would be unrealistic to believe that any programme could entirely shelter businesses from the effects of the global downturn. The hon Member, who is on the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, knows the difficulties that are being experienced in the telecommunications sector and others as a result of that downturn, and that was the situation before the events of the week before last. As I said earlier, it is too soon to assess the full impact of those events, but we will be meeting the Department and the agencies later this week to make what assessment we can and to see what steps, if any, can be taken.
5.30 pm
The Member will be fully aware of the measures we are taking, including the creation of Invest Northern Ireland, to ensure that we have the most effective mechanism possible at our disposal to secure maximum economic growth.
Mr ONeill:
There is much to be welcomed in the statement from both Ministers. For many years I have had an interest in the construction of a dual carriage on the Newry section of the Newry to Dundalk road, and I am glad to see that that is getting up the scale.
The document refers to the crisis we recently experienced. Will the Minister tell us, in the simplest terms possible, how the Programme for Government addresses the crisis in agriculture?
Mr Séamus Mallon MP:
Simply, or simplistically, we have to recognise that the world of farming has changed. It has been changed by forces unconnected with the recent problems with foot-and-mouth disease, rather on account of how agriculture is changing throughout the world. It is crucial that we recognise that and devise a means whereby rural communities retain the role that they have always played.
During the foot-and-mouth disease crisis all sectors and all sections of Government worked together carefully and successfully to deal with the real problems for farmers and businesses in the affected rural areas. We appreciate that the regeneration of the rural economy is a much longer-term issue and concerns deep-rooted problems. In the Programme for Government, we set out our intention to develop an action plan for the strategic development of the agrifood industry for the next decade.
You might well ask - and so might I - what that means. Surely, if we are honest, we must look beyond the words, and towards what it will take to sustain farming as an industry, to sustain the type of farming that exists in the North of Ireland. We must look not to the type of farming we would wish it to be, or that exists in Norfolk or in other parts of the world, but the type of farming that exists here. We must look at how we can tie that in to the agrifood industry.
The plan for that will arise out of the results of the exercise on the vision for the future of the agrifood industry that has been carried out over the last year by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. We await that with interest.
How do we help farmers and the wider industry to produce food that people around the world will trust and buy? How do we achieve the relaxation of beef export restrictions? We must do that as soon as possible in 2002-03.
How do we sell it abroad in not very propitious circumstances? The Member asked for simplicity. It would be a start if we were all to ensure that we bought Irish beef. Are we perhaps more partial to Danish or Argentinian produce, or are we serious about sustaining our own rural community?
We cannot regard rural Northern Ireland as a community based on farming and settlement. It is not that type of society. Farming is part of the settlement of the towns and villages. The agro-industries are part of the development of commerce in Northern Ireland. The vision for the future of the agrifood industry will therefore be crucial, because it cannot be considered in isolation from rural life and the farming industry as a whole.
Rev Dr William McCrea: Other Members have welcomed the draft Programme for Government and commented on how much is in it for them. As the Chairperson of the Environment Committee, I listened carefully to the statements of both the acting First Minister and the acting Deputy First Minister and they made virtually no reference to the environment or any related issue. There were 19 pages and 35 minutes of speech. Where exactly did the environment come into it? I looked carefully at the 144-page document and found that scant reference is made to the environment. The environment is supposed to be a key theme running through the current Programme for Government. How can the acting First and Deputy First Ministers expect my Committee to believe that they are treating environmental issues as important?
In the previous speech, sustainable development was mentioned repeatedly. It is not even mentioned in the 19 pages and 35 minutes of speech. I know that the Ministers are running quickly through this 144-page document. However, I remember their summary. I believe that the Department of the Environment was the only Department that did not get a mention in the 35-minute speech. Waste management - one of the biggest problems that we face - got two lines in the 144-page document. The protection of our built heritage is a major problem; it was not mentioned in either of the speeches or in the document. We are facing a planning crisis. Many areas do not have an area plan. Again, that was not mentioned.
Mr Mallon said that we must start with high ideals and vision. As far as the environment is concerned, they mean nothing at all.
Sir Reg Empey:
Mr Mallon mentioned this. Today we are presenting the draft Programme for Government. If the Member turns to page 92 of the document, he will see that there are some 15 targets set for his Department - [Interruption].
The Member and his Committee will have the opportunity to comment on the proposal. That is the purpose of it. It comes back to the Assembly. The Programme for Government contained a commitment to publish proposals for a sustainable development strategy by June 2001. It was not possible to publish the proposals by that date. However, the sustainable development strategy will be published in November 2001. It will involve widespread consultation to encourage a debate on sustainable development, including indicators by which progress in sustainable development can be measured.
The Minister will consider the comments made during that consultation and intends to publish the sustainable development strategy by October next year. As the Member is aware, that will include reducing, recycling and disposing of the waste that the community generates. Those will remain priorities for the Executive. The Member will also know that councils must be assisted in implementing the sustainable arrangements for the provision of an integrated network of waste facilities through their group waste management plans. When we attempted to put our proposals forward we ran into difficulties with another division of the Department of the Environment with regard to planning. Perhaps the Member will find something in the draft programme that he can get his teeth into when it reaches Committee Stage.
Mr M Murphy:
Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the statement. However, considering that local government is at the forefront when it comes to putting a waste management strategy in place, can the Minister tell us what cross-cutting actions are taking place at local government level to deliver a substantial waste management strategy? Where is the response in the draft programme to the EU integrated product policy or the EU draft sixth environmental action programme?
Mr Séamus Mallon MP:
I will be honest with the Member - I am not an expert on waste management.
Ms McWilliams:
We could do with an expert on waste management in the Assembly.
Mr Séamus Mallon MP:
I resisted the temptation even to consider such a matter.
The Member asked a very important question, but I will refer it to those who can answer it properly. I will make sure that the Member gets a full and proper answer rather than a glossed-over one from me now. His question, which means something, will get an answer, which means something, because we know how dear waste management is to his heart and to his mind. I would not like the Member to go without the expert advice that I will ensure he gets from those who are in an expert position to give it.
Mr Hussey:
I thank the acting First Minister and the acting Deputy First Minister for the statement. Like others, I welcome the plans for action in the draft programme which I hope will be carried out. The Ministers said that three quarters of the population will have access to natural gas - obviously, a quarter of the population will not. I am concerned about the lack of action planned to tackle the deteriorating rural infrastructure. As the acting First and Deputy First Ministers said, they must deal with those at the fringes. I realise that such action requires funds, so what steps are being taken to deal with the deficiencies of the Barnett formula to ensure that the resources available reflect Northern Ireland's genuine needs and will enable this draft Programme for Government to be delivered?
Sir Reg Empey:
It is fortunate that our Colleague, the Minister of Finance and Personnel, is here, since he is responsible for this important issue. The Executive have major concerns, which are acknowledged in the draft programme. We are looking carefully at the operation of the Barnett formula to see if it can provide a fair allocation of resources. We have not concluded work on that, but we know that, because of the way in which the formula operates, we are unable to keep pace with the rates of increase in spending in England on programmes such as health and education, which are crucial. We hope to have formed a view on the appropriateness of the formula later this year. We have nothing to fear from any examination of the Barnett formula. However, we must continue to argue the case for a better and fairer formula - and a coherent Programme for Government is an important building block in the process of putting our case to the Treasury.
5.45 pm
I am conscious that the Member's constituency may not have the gas infrastructure, but the Department aims to ensure that other infrastructural elements, such as telephones, will be available to his constituents.
Mr Speaker:
Several Members who wished to ask questions did not have the chance to do so. It is regrettable, but it is not the first time that that has happened, particularly when dealing with statements of such substance. The House must be grateful for Ministers' preparedness to make statements on matters of importance in the Chamber. However, there may be other ways of dealing with substantial statements such as the Programme for Government. My office would be happy to assist the Executive and the Assembly to explore whether, in some cases, there might be a way of ensuring that more Members who wished to put down questions, or explore matters, had an opportunity to do so.
Mr ONeill:
On a point of order. During the debate on setting up an interdepartmental working group the DUP Member for South Down, Mr Jim Wells, made a comment about the people in the parish of Kilcoo. I ask you to examine his remarks when you have the benefit of Hansard and any other advice you may receive. In my opinion, it appears that he impugned the reputation of those people. Indeed, he even suggested that it was risky to one's life to pass through the area. Subject to correction - as I did not quite pick up what his exact words were - I think this could be unparliamentary language. Would you examine this issue for me?
Mr Speaker:
I was not in the Chair at the time, so I did not hear the remarks. However, I will peruse Hansard and will respond, in the Chamber if it is appropriate, but if not, directly to the Member himself.
Adjourned at 5.47pm
18 September 2001 / Menu / 25 September 2001