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Northern Ireland Assembly

23 January 2001 (continued)

Mr Ervine:

To defend Larne by simply pointing out that it is not as bad as somewhere else is a poor defence. To deny that something is happening, then admit that it is happening, and then ask us all to get together to do something about something that is allegedly not happening is rather strange. Nevertheless, ethnic cleansing is nothing new in Northern Ireland. It is nothing new in our six counties of Northern Ireland in one way or another. Mr Kelly had ample opportunity to tell us of the annoyance inflicted on the Protestant community in Londonderry last evening. He did not do this.

We can all be a bit hypocritical, but the fact is that ordinary decent people are suffering. Irrespective of the political games and chicanery that people want to indulge in, if we do not do something about it as a society, some of our constituents will die. That is the unadulterated truth, and our history tells us that it will happen.

5.00 pm

We exhort the RUC to do better. That is logical, but there comes a time when the tolerance of society is turned upon those who are absolutely intolerant. Those people do what they are doing in Larne, Coleraine, Ballymena or Ballymoney, whichever side of the community they come from, because they think they have a right to act like this. If you happen to be in the Unionist community, for example, you might feel that you are the last bastion of defence and say "I'll do something about it."

How many ex-prisoners are involved in this terrible trouble in Larne? None, or very few. Yet our leaders cry foul. Ludicrous stuff comes from the mouths of politicians; they tell us that we have been sold out, that the other side is winning. When people are given the impression that they are locked into a zero-sum battle, then, with a perverted sense of duty, some of them may feel that they have a legitimate cause for action. It is called populism.

We are told that those who advocate the demolition of the Good Friday Agreement perhaps have their own little part to play. Nevertheless, their campaign and their threat to scupper it all by walking out create a constant hype and fear in the minds of the Unionist community. Those who fired the bomb at Ebrington barracks this morning and those who were swiftest to condemn it have the same goal. They both want the destruction of the only opportunity that this society has ever had to live in peace in my lifetime, and perhaps the only opportunity that my children and my children's children will have.

I have an affinity with Larne. I lived there as a child - those were my days of innocence, and perhaps Larne's days of innocence. Today, even while they talk about the suffering of innocent people and the need to defend the integrity and decency of what is a wonderful place, two of our Members have also spoken about their need to destroy the Good Friday Agreement. For them it is evil; vile; terrible; deplorable; shameful; and stinking. I am not quoting them, but they may well have said this at some time in the past or may do so in the future.

In reply to those Members, I want to say "It is simple - just walk out." Not only could the couple here at the moment walk out, but the massed ranks as well. They choose not to do so. Instead, while ordinary, decent, innocent people suffer, they earn £39,500 per year, eulogising and chasing television cameras to make sure that they get re-elected.

If you come from the Protestant community and realise how painful it was when people were ethnically cleansed, it is even more shameful then to inflict the same on somebody else who is also wholly innocent. The choices are clear. What is going on in Larne and in other parts of Northern Ireland is either right or wrong. We must choose. Do we create a culture and an ethos where we, the tolerant society, identify the intolerant and deal with them, or do we pay mealy-mouthed lip-service to division and thus give these people justification for their actions?

Mr Beggs:

As one of the two Assembly Members who actually lives in the Larne borough, I hope to give some insight into what I have discovered is happening in my town. I aim to show that the impression given over the past weeks and months does not give the full picture, and I want to send a positive message about what Larne can become.

First, I want to send a clear message to the men of violence in our society. Stop. You are acting for no one but yourselves - you have no mandate. Since I was elected to the Assembly I have consistently condemned those in my constituency who have been engaged in terrorism, whatever the level and whatever the source. I will continue to do so.

However, we must all go beyond the ritual of condemnation. We must analyse what is wrong, and prescribe a remedy. I would like Members to assess what they are saying and doing, both here and in the public domain, that is constructive and that is helping to solve the problems.

The recent troubles in Larne need to be put into context, and in doing so, the perceptions created about the town by the local and national media have to be changed, for they are inaccurate. Yes, we have failings, but Larne is not the hellhole that some people describe it to be.

During the year 2000 there were 76 separate incidents described as sectarian. Of those affected, 53 people were Catholics and 35 were Protestants. The incidents ranged from pipe bombings, petrol bombings, vandalised cars, assaults on people and on homes, and threatening letters. It is clear from the figures that the attacks are coming from both sides. Yet, what are we getting in the media? Even last night, the commentary on some of the provincial media about what happened in the town was totally unbalanced. There was a tit-for-tat attack in Larne last night. A beer bottle was thrown into a Protestant home, and bricks were subsequently thrown into two Catholic homes.

All attacks are wrong. However, some aspects of the media, and some representatives, portray the attacks as coming entirely from one side. There is criminality in both communities.

UTV Internet has actually metamorphosed some of the figures. A recent statement on the web site revealed that 78 Catholic families in the town have been targeted last year. The figures have been lumped together and portrayed as coming from one side of the community. I have referred the matter to UTV, so I hope that it will correct its misreporting. Perhaps it is a case of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story.

I say this not to minimise any of the attacks that have happened to my Catholic constituents but to highlight the fact that there are troublemakers in both communities. If we are going to move forward together as a community, we must acknowledge criminality in both communities.

Larne has been fortunate in many ways. It does not have terrorism to the same extent as many other towns in Northern Ireland. Therefore it is ironic that the troubles that we have at present are coming to a level exceeding that in many other locations.

We must not allow bigots to destroy our community in Larne, and they are not exclusively on one side. Many of the problems have emanated from the Seacourt estate, where local Republicans have said to neighbours "We are going to turn this estate into a Nationalist ghetto or bring it to the ground." They are bringing the estate to the ground, terrorising completely innocent neighbours and those who have no involvement in terrorism or in politics.

There needs to be a realisation in the Nationalist community of the failings of these criminals, for many of these people have criminal records. Many of them continue to be sought by the courts for criminal activities. However, we have to move forward positively. In doing so, I would like to advise the House that there have been positive moves behind the scenes with groups and individuals. I welcome the fact that six Assembly Members have signed a letter, which I drafted, calling for the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to utilise Peace II funding to improve community relations in Larne.

Mr A Maginness:

I congratulate Assemblyman Roger Hutchinson on his very powerful condemnation of the violence in Larne, and I congratulate other Members also. I want to say to him, and to the other Members of the House who have spoken, particularly those on the Unionist side, that there is a very deep well of sectarianism in our society. It is a poisoned toxin that infects and damages the body politic and the fabric of our society.

I believe that places such as Larne, Ballymena, Ballymoney and Coleraine are suffering from the effects of that toxin. There is something disturbing going on in those communities. However, that disturbance and violence would not arise unless the culture of sectarianism was embedded in the social organisation of those communities.

It is not enough to condemn - right and proper as that is - those who carry out the acts of violence. We must look inside ourselves and ask if there is something that we can change about our sectarian attitudes that will remove this poison and help create a new and healthy society that respects human rights. Human rights are the bedrock of the Good Friday Agreement. We have heard about attacks on people's homes. Those are attacks on human rights. Those are attacks on the right to liberty and security of the person. An attack on a person's home may also constitute an attack on the right to life. Human rights are being damaged and attacked by those who perpetrate this violence.

Some Members have been talking about violence as if it were some sort of epidemic - almost something that happened as a result of some sort of inexplicable outbreak. However, we are not talking about casual sectarian violence. There may be some casual sectarian violence, but we are talking about organised sectarian violence in Larne. I pay tribute to Danny O'Connor for highlighting and being forthright about this issue.

Mr Beggs:

I concur with some of the Member's comments, but he should bear in mind that a crosscommunity women's group - perhaps relevant to himself - in the Seacourt estate was forced out of action by Republicans. It is coming from both communities.

Mr A Maginness:

I have no doubt that there is violence on both sides in Larne. However, it must be said - and Danny O'Connor has said openly and courageously - that there is organised violence in that town and in that area. The majority of that violence has been visited upon the minority Catholic community that lives in the borough. In addition, he says that it is his belief that it is organised by the UDA or organisations associated with the UDA. I believe that, and I believe that the police have confirmed it.

I cannot understand why, in a town of 20,000 people - it is not a big town - the police cannot come to grips with that sort of organised violence. Casual violence is more difficult to eradicate. However, organised violence, which requires somebody to make pipe bombs, petrol bombs and weapons with which to attack homes, should surely be detected and suppressed by the police. Assemblyman Roger Hutchinson asked that very question himself on a radio programme. It goes to the heart of the concerns of Catholic people living in that area.

Madam Deputy Speaker:

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close.

Mr A Maginness:

Why has there not been effective police action on this? This is not such a big nut for the police to crack. I commend those who have constructively criticised the police over their actions in Larne.

Madam Deputy Speaker:

The Member's time is up.

Mr A Maginness:

I support Danny O'Connor and Sean Neeson for highlighting this issue.

Mr Hilditch:

Like other Members who have taken part in today's debate, I totally condemn the unsavoury incidents currently taking place in Larne. It saddens me that the severity of the situation has led to the matter being brought before the House today. It is right to condemn the attacks in Larne, as well as similar activity taking place in other areas throughout the Province.

5.15 pm

We have before us a terrible vicious circle. Attack provokes attack; retaliation provokes retaliation, and at the end of the day, both communities are losing out. The cost to individual families is immense, with ruined lives, wrecked homes and vast medical problems which, unfortunately, will surface in the days ahead.

There is no one section of our community with a monopoly on suffering. The statistics released by the RUC that are being quoted today give the true facts on the problem. Both communities are under attack - indeed, members of the DUP have been attacked in Larne by Republicans. Loyalists too must take responsibility for their actions.

Unfortunately, what we have witnessed to date is that he who shouts loudest is the victim. That is the perception coming out of Larne. I call on all local politicians and community leaders to disregard point scoring. Let us get to grips with the situation here at the grass roots and put the heart back into Larne.

The embryo of a similar problem was beginning to emerge in Carrickfergus last year. Local civic and community leaders came together, stood their ground and headed off the problem. No one had to run to Dublin, London or elsewhere. The matter was sorted out on our own doorstep, without adding provocation to the situation.

The story in Larne is no different from that in any other place in Northern Ireland. Something that, perhaps, starts off as being a case of nuisance neighbours ruins good communities, and lack of action - particularly on the part of statutory agencies such as the Housing Executive - leaves a void that is taken up by the more sinister elements. The results are the same - a huge cost in human suffering, population displacements and, more often than not, perfectly good housing demolished owing to the increasing number of voids.

We do not want to see that in any part of Larne. Let us not allow that to happen in Larne. Let us not see events spiralling any further, as we have witnessed in interface areas in North and West Belfast and in other constituencies. We must take up the slack and tackle the problems head-on. The rule of law and order must be applied to all, irrespective of their political or religious affiliation.

Madam Deputy Speaker:

The time for the Adjournment debate is now up.

Mr Ervine:

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I suppose it is not my job to point out to you that this dialogue was timed to take place between 5.00pm and 6.00pm, yet, despite our having been encouraged to nip our commentaries short, we find ourselves, at 5.18pm, going home. Even the capacity to give way is destroyed by the short-termism that is being foisted on us.

I realise that you, Madam Deputy Speaker, have made a decision, which I am not likely to be able to overturn, but I ask that you - along with the Speaker and the other Deputy Speakers - give some consideration to this problem. This is the second time today that this matter has been raised as a point of order in the House.

Mr R Hutchinson:

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am gravely concerned. Many of us had prepared speeches containing lots of statistics which we were not able to quote. We rushed our speeches through to comply with your ruling. The situation in Larne is severe, which is the very reason I felt that this debate should not take place today. We were cut short, and things that should have been said could not be said. I am afraid that today's debate has served no purpose whatsoever.

Madam Deputy Speaker:

The Standing Orders allow one hour for the Adjournment debate. We began this debate at 4.22pm, and it is now 5.19pm. We had five minutes extra because one Member withdrew. That is why we have a few minutes left over. If there are problems with this, they should be taken up with the Business Committee and the Standing Orders Committee.

Adjourned at 5.19 pm.

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