Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 27 November 2000 (continued)
South Tyrone Hospital and Craigavon Area Hospital (Winter Pressure)
2.
Mrs Carson
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if it is her intention to use South Tyrone Hospital this winter to ease pressure on Craigavon Area Hospital.
Ms de Brún:
Tá Bord Sláinte agus Seirbhísí Sóisialta an Deiscirt i ndiaidh sé leaba bhreise a choimisiúnú i dTeach Loane, aonad seanliachta in Ospidéal Dheisceart Thír Eoghain. De bharr na leapacha sin beidh sé ar chumas Ospidéal Cheantar Craigavon othair, nach bhfuil tuilleadh cóireála de dhíth orthu mar othair chónaitheacha ach nach ndearnadh measúnú iomlán go fóill ar a riachtanais chúraim pobail, a scaoileadh amach níos luaithe.
The Southern Health and Social Services Board has commissioned an additional six beds in Loane House, a geriatric unit on the South Tyrone Hospital site. Those beds will allow the earlier discharge from Craigavon Area Hospital of patients who no longer require hospital in-patient treatment but whose community care needs have not yet been fully assessed.
Mrs Carson:
The people of south Tyrone will find that a strange reply. Last year, we were told that Craigavon Area Hospital could cope with the workload previously dealt with by South Tyrone Hospital, and it came as some surprise that all our beds were used. It is interesting to find that we only have six down this year. I ask the Minister to assure to the Assembly and the people in south Tyrone that she will re-examine the current status of the services that have been temporarily transferred see if they can be reinstated, rather than just to provide the six beds that she spoke about.
Ms de Brún:
Temporary transfer was made for specific reasons, and those reasons have not changed. Specific measures have been put in place in Craigavon to tackle winter pressures. The capacity of the intensive care and high dependency unit at Craigavon Area Hospital is being expanded. There are currently four intensive care beds and two high dependency beds in the unit, and arrangements are being made to increase that provision by 50%, to six intensive care and three high dependency beds. Dedicated patient transport vehicles will also speed up hospital transfers and discharges.
Several strong measures have been taken. Boards and trusts have been working hard to ensure that contingency arrangements are made for this winter. With regard to the long-term future of the South Tyrone Hospital, I have made it clear that no decisions will be taken until the independent review group chaired by Maurice Hayes has reported.
Mr Molloy:
Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. First of all, the Minister will remember that she instructed John Templeton, the chief executive of Craigavon Area Hospital, to rebalance services between the Craigavon and South Tyrone hospitals. At present, private clinics such as the Ulster Clinic are being used and beds are being transferred from Craigavon to them. Can the Minister tell us the cost to the Health Service of that? Why are the new theatres in South Tyrone Hospital not being used for that very purpose? I am certain that they are just as well equipped as the Ulster Clinic, or any other private clinic.
Ms de Brún:
Some of the measures that were outlined at that time, for the responsibilities that Craigavon Area Hospital will take on, will be implemented only from 1 December. However, I must make it clear that the Department has been in contact with the board and has emphasised that it wishes to see a rebalancing of services between the two hospitals.
With reference to the question about the use of private facilities, around 57 patients waiting for surgical procedures have been identified for possible treatment by the board at the Ulster Independent Clinic. The board has also made it clear that it considered alternatives to the Ulster Independent Clinic. Those were fully explored, and the board is satisfied that there was no realistic alternative at the South Tyrone Hospital or elsewhere. My Department and I expect all reasonable potential options for treating patients in health and personal social services facilities to be tested first. From conversations that officials have had with the board, I understand that the main factor preventing the use of the South Tyrone Hospital for those 57 patients has been the need for overnight clinical cover for recovering patients.
I understand that a range of treatments is still being negotiated with alternative providers, including the private sector, and that the board expects to obtain a cost-effective package for those procedures that will represent good value for money for the patient and the Department.
Nurses (D Grade)
3.15 pm
3.
Mr Poots
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if she will detail the percentage of nurses employed at D grade in Northern Ireland and what is the comparable figure for the rest of the United Kingdom.
Ms de Brún:
Is é 37·5% an céatadán d'altraí a bhfuil poist ghrád D acu anseo; 24·2% an céatadán i Sasana; agus 28·4% in Albain.
The percentage of qualified nurses in D grade posts here is 37·5%; in England it is 24·2%; and in Scotland it is 28·4%. Information on grade D nurses employed in Wales is not available.
Mr Poots:
It is evident from the answer that we are paying nurses on the cheap in Northern Ireland, with 13% more nurses at D grade than in England. It is clear that that is one reason why so many nurses are leaving.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Is there a question in there, Mr Poots?
Mr Poots:
Yes, there is. It is clear that that is one of the main reasons for the nursing crisis and for our having to import nurses from all over the world. What will the Minister do to ensure that nurses are rewarded fairly for the work that they do?
Ms de Brún:
The Member has obviously not read the front pages of the English newspapers, which tell us of the grave shortages of nurses throughout that country, and which slightly belie the point he appears to be trying to make. The grading of any nursing post depends on the duties of the post; length of service, experience and qualifications are not in the agreed criteria. Therefore, no direct comparison can be made between the numbers of grade D posts in different countries, as the number depends on the staffing requirements of individual organisations to deliver health care to service users.
The clinical grading system and pay for nurses and others working in the system have been addressed in the House several times. The four health boards, in partnership with employers and staff organisations, are currently developing proposals for a new pay system. It will offer staff a more attractive career with the potential for better progression, greater use of skills, improved status and higher earnings for those who contribute most to the service.
It is proposed that a job evaluation scheme will be used to evaluate every post in the Health Service, and pay will be awarded on the basis of a job's worth in fair comparison with the worth of other jobs.
Minister / Executive Committee
4.
Mr Paisley Jnr
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if she will confirm when she will next meet with the Executive Committee and what issues she intends to bring to the Executive Committee for discussion.
Ms de Brún:
Beidh mé ag freastal ar an chéad chruinniú eile den Choiste Feidhmiúcháin ar an Déardaoin, 30 Samhain 2000. Mar atá leagtha síos sa chód aireachta, ní hé an cleachtas é labhairt go poiblí faoi mholtaí atá le cur faoi bhráid an Choiste Feidhmiúcháin nó atá á mbreithniú acu.
I will be attending the next meeting of the Executive, which is scheduled for Thursday 30 November. As stipulated in the ministerial code, it is not practice to make public comment on policy proposals that are to be brought to the Executive or are already under consideration.
Mr Paisley Jnr:
Given the fact that the Department, because of the Minister, wasted £3,290 on a meeting in Enniskillen that had supposedly been cancelled, to which the Chief Medical Officer for Northern Ireland and the permanent secretary of her Department were dragged along, can she reveal to the House how much departmental money she is going to waste on a legal action against the First Minister? Does she honestly believe that that is the best use of departmental money? Does she accept that her actions make a joke of any notion of collective responsibility? Does she accept that she is now the Minister for waste, the Minister for want and the Minister for the destruction of the Health Service? She is not the Minister for the Health Service, and that demonstrates Sinn Fein's irresponsibility, rather than collective responsibility.
Ms de Brún:
The Member must be acutely embarrassed that the cost of the meeting is only half what he estimated it would be in his famous newspaper article - [Interruption].
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Order.
Ms de Brún:
The Member made a similar gaffe over the cost of ministerial cars - his Minister had spent four times as much as some others. Maths is obviously not Ian Paisley Jnr's strong point - [Interruption].
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Order.
Ms de Brún:
Given that he has not yet learned maths -
Mr J Kelly:
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
I do not take points of order during Question Time.
Ms de Brún:
In my response to written question 63/000, I outlined the real cost of the meeting, the travel expenses for officials and the costs associated with the launch of the Food Safety Promotion Board. I attended the meeting in order to fulfil my duties as Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. As a Minister, I am entitled to full administrative support. Therefore the salaries of those officials who accompanied me to the meeting were paid for fulfilling their duties.
That meeting produced significant benefits. There were four or five different components to it. At the same venue on the same day, there were public launches of the Food Safety Promotion Board and of the folic acid campaign. The latter informed the population of the specific benefits of taking folic acid when pregnant or when intending to become pregnant. The kind of publicity given to that vital health promotion campaign could not have been paid for. Having the different components on the same day, in the same venue, was highly cost-effective when compared to the cost of the legal action.
The North/South Ministerial Council is an integral part of the institutions that were established as a result of the Good Friday Agreement. Strand two paragraph 13 of the agreement states that the North/South Ministerial Council and the Assembly are
"mutually inter-dependent, and that one cannot successfully function without the other."
North/South work is also an integral part of the work of my Department and of my duties as Minister. The importance of challenging any attempt to ensure that I cannot carry out my duties is therefore self-evident. I had no option but to initiate legal proceedings and incur any costs in order to challenge the attempt to prevent me from doing that and prevent a major part of the agreement's being put in place.
Rev Robert Coulter:
Will the Minister advise the Executive Committee of discussions that she has had with health trusts about increasing the mileage allowances for district community nurses, taking into account the increasingly high cost of fuel? Will she undertake to discuss the matter with the Secretary of State for Health who has agreed an increase of up to 5p per mile in Great Britain?
Mr Deputy Speaker:
That question is related to one further down the Order Paper.
Ms Gildernew:
Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister raise with the Executive Committee the absence of Maurice Morrow from the ministerial group on drugs and the refusal of Gregory Campbell to report to the Executive on the cryptosporidium outbreak? Mr Campbell attempted to point the finger at the Ministers of the Environment and of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, but he has refused to meet the West Belfast MP and Sinn Féin Assembly Members from the area that is affected by the bug.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Order. Again, that is not related to the question.
Influenza Vaccination
(Nurses and Doctors)
5.
Mr Neeson
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if she will detail the percentage of nurses and doctors who have been vaccinated against influenza this year.
Ms de Brún:
Níl an t-eolas ar fáil san fhormáid inar iarradh é. I mbliana tairgeadh an vacsaín in éadan fliú do gach ball foirne de chuid na SSSP. Go dtí seo is é 6,100 líon iomlán na foirne a vacsaíníodh. Is é seo 11% d'fhoireann iomlán na SSSP. Sa dá bhordcheantar SSS dá bhfuil sonraí ar fáil vacsaíníodh 6·3% de na haltraí agus 9·9% de bhaill foirne míochaine. Leanfaidh na hiontaobhais de chláir vacsaínithe go dtí go luath i mí na Nollag.
The information is not available in the format requested. This year, the influenza vaccine was offered to all health and personal social services staff. The total number of staff vaccinated to date is 6,100, which represents 11% of all HPSS staff. In the two HSS boards where data is available, 6.3% of nurses and 9.9% of medical staff have been vaccinated. Vaccination programmes will continue in most trusts until early December.
Mr Neeson:
Following a recent report - not about Northern Ireland hospitals, but those in other parts of the UK - stating that many patients contract fatal illnesses while in hospital, surely those startling figures make it incumbent upon all hospital staff to have the vaccination.
Ms de Brún:
The influenza vaccine is effective in preventing influenza, but it will not have any impact on other causes of viral illness. It is hoped that there will be less staff absence as a result of flu. In any given winter, it is difficult to predict how much influenza and other viral illness there will be in the community. It is therefore difficult to predict the level of staff absence due to these conditions. Staff immunisation will reduce staff absence.
In Scotland, the uptake of vaccinations samong health care staff is not monitored centrally. Trusts in Wales have not been asked to immunise health workers and are not collecting the information centrally. In Northern Ireland, we have monitored the uptake of the vaccine, and the boards and trusts organised the influenza vaccination programme for staff. All HPSS staff were notified of the vaccination programmes by several different measures, including advertisements in hospital newsletters, personal invitations through clinic lists and payslips. We continue to monitor the uptake of the vaccine among staff, and boards and trusts have been asked to forward information on uptake levels and details of how their information and immunisation programmes are being organised and promoted. However, it is a voluntary measure. To ensure accessibility, immunisation clinics have been organised at a variety of locations and times. Some trusts have also organised special clinics for night staff.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Members of all parties should remember that private conversation when the Minister is speaking is very discourteous.
Mr J Kelly:
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
I do not take points of order during Question Time.
Mr McFarland:
What has been the uptake for the influenza vaccine amongst the elderly, and is another epidemic expected this year?
Ms de Brún:
On the second part of that question, I refer the Member to my answer to Mr Neeson. The influenza vaccine has proved effective in preventing influenza, but it will have no impact on other causes of viral illness. It is an important part of our efforts to minimise winter pressures from influenza, but it is impossible to state exactly what will happen. They are precautionary measures. We are taking clear measures, and television advertisements and other campaigns were used to ensure uptake, because this year the vaccine is offered to the over-65s. The uptake is 57%.
Learning Disabilities
7.
Mr McGrady
asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if she will outline what measures she will take to improve services for those with learning difficulties in the community; and if she will make a statement.
3.30 pm
Ms de Brún:
De réir na spriocanna i straitéis réigiúnach na Roinne do 1997-2002 tá gach bord sláinte agus seirbhísí sóisialta agus gach iontaobhas pobail sláinte agus seirbhísí sóisialta ag forbairt réimse cuimsitheach de sheirbhísí tacaíochta do dhaoine a bhfuil míchumas foghlama orthu agus dá gcúramóirí. Is iad ár gcuspóirí foriomlána iad deireadh a chur le cúram fadtéarmach ospidéil agus líon na n-othar a ghlactar isteach a laghdú.
Each health and social services board and community trust has been developing a range of support services for those with a learning disability and their carers in line with the targets in the Department's regional strategy for 1997-2002. The overall objectives are to end long-stay hospital care and reduce hospital admissions. Since 1997, the number of long-stay patients has decreased from 602 to 491. A regional review group chaired by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety has been quantifying the need for community services to achieve those objectives and the resources necessary to fund them. That work is nearly complete.
Mr McGrady:
I am sure that the Minister is aware that the Down Lisburn trust and the eastern health board assessed the requirements of services for those with learning disabilities. The requirements have been costed and the costs submitted to the Department. Does the Minister agree that the twin objectives of resettlement from Muckamore Abbey Hospital and community support should be granted equal importance? Does she also accept that resettlement and a decrease in the use of hospital-based services will not necessarily be achieved unless adequate resources are provided for the local community infrastructure?
Mr Deputy Speaker:
The Minister must be brief in her reply.
Ms de Brún:
The eastern board's statement has not been formally submitted to the Department, although the regional review group has considered it. It has been refined in the light of that consideration. Along with similar bids from the other boards, the statement will be incorporated in the group's submission to the Department on future service provision and resources. I concur with those who see as essential the availability of appropriate community infrastructure and services for those transferred into the community from Muckamore Abbey Hospital. I emphasise that the move will not occur unless the appropriate community services are available to allow those people to be transferred.
Mr Hussey:
I would like to raise a point under Standing Order 19(5). Members will agree that the allocation of time is insufficient to allow questions to be answered when both the question and the answer are repeated. I ask that appropriate additional time be allocated to the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety following the completion of other scheduled business under Standing Order 10(3).
Mr Deputy Speaker:
I will see that the matter is raised with the Business Committee tomorrow.
Mr J Kelly:
I am concerned at the verbal abuse directed at the Minister during Question Time. Such abuse is unacceptable in the Chamber. It is no wonder that young people take an example from that and go out to burn Catholic schools and Irish schools. It is unacceptable - [Interruption].
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Order.
Finance and Personnel
Barnett Formula
1.
Mr Ford
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel if he will detail the discussions he has had with his counterparts in Scotland and Wales in relation to the impact of the Barnett Formula.
The Minister of Finance and Personnel (Mr Durkan):
I met the Finance Secretary of the National Assembly for Wales in July. We agreed that there is common interest between Northern Ireland and Wales and that there could be scope for working together in the future to press for adjustments to funding arrangements. During the spending review process, my officials had a series of meetings with their counterparts in Scotland and Wales.
Mr Ford:
I thank the Minister for his response and welcome the fact that there has been at least some discussion. Does he agree that the Barnett formula is opaque and out of date and that it fails to meet either future or present needs? Does he also agree that the Barnett formula operates with uncertainty, as in the recent DETR initiative on transport funding?
Given that level of discrimination, is it not important that the Minister consult further with both Scotland and Wales? I understand that both parties in each of those Governments are now fully in favour of revising the Barnett formula to produce something more equitable to every region of the United Kingdom.
Mr Durkan:
I agree with much of the Member's criticism of the Barnett formula, which does not represent a fair or proper basis for allocations across the regions in the context of devolution. We have registered that point and shall continue to do so. However, to have any hope of success, we must build up a strong case before the next spending review. The issue is not so much whether we can come up with valid and well-founded criticisms of the Barnett formula as whether we can produce a cogent and coherent alternative that the various regions, as well as the United Kingdom Treasury, would be prepared to adopt. To that end, we shall continue to explore all the issues with our counterparts to come up with a more equitable basis for future allocations.
Ms Lewsley:
How much success have the Minister's representatives on the group working on the Barnett formula had?
Mr Durkan:
In the context of the spending review announcements made in July, the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and I had some success in making representations for an improvement to the allocation that Northern Ireland received under the Barnett formula. We improved our treatment of abatement of VAT in spending programmes. We also ensured that spending on the London underground would be included in the formula for the first time. Those changes were worth some £40 million extra in each of the three years of the spending review.
On the basis of further representations made subsequent to the spending review announcement, the Treasury also agreed to provide additional common agricultural policy funding for modulation payments, amounting to £3 million, £4 million and £4·5 million respectively in the three years of the spending review.
Civil Service: Decentralisation
2.
Mr McGrady
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel if he will outline the progress to date on the decentralisation of Civil Service accommodation to rural areas.
Mr Durkan:
I intend to examine the scope for the decentralisation of Civil Service jobs in line with the commitments made in the draft Programme for Government and in the context of an accommodation review. The review will start as soon as possible after the receipt of an updated database of office accommodation commissioned from specialist consultants. The current target for completing the review, as set out in the Programme for Government, is June 2001. Pending the outcome, opportunities for relocation will be considered as they arise.
Mr McGrady:
I thank the Minister for his reply, which somewhat subverted my supplementary question. I am glad to hear that the office accommodation audit to which he referred will be completed by the middle of next year. In coming to his conclusions on decentralisation, will the Minister take on board the deficit of such jobs in many rural areas and the particular requirement to address social need? Following publication of the Minister's report in June 2001, such matters will need to be addressed urgently.
Mr Durkan:
I recognise the valuable contribution that Civil Service jobs make to many locations. We shall take a range of factors into account, including the number of Civil Service jobs in an area as a proportion of the local workforce, new TSN indicators, the regional planning strategy, the effect on equality of opportunity and, not least, service delivery and business efficiency and, of course, cost. In trying to balance all those factors, we want the region as a whole and, in particular, the various locations within it, to benefit. We also want to ensure that we continue to enhance the quality and effectiveness of public services.
Mr K Robinson:
Does the Minister agree that Newtownabbey, despite being the fourth-largest borough in Northern Ireland, is under-provided with Civil Service jobs and has suffered from a recent loss of Civil Service accommodation?
Newtownabbey incorporates a large rural hinterland, and farmers in that area are to be congratulated on forming the highly successful Ollardale co-operative. Given that worthy example of self-help, will the Minister undertake to look frequently and favourably at Newtownabbey as a rural community likely to maximise the benefits that might flow from any decentralisation?
Mr Durkan:
It would be wrong of me to speculate about which areas might benefit as a result of whatever new policy might emerge from the review. Many areas have already been suggested as suitable locations for Civil Service jobs. We hope to bring forward a policy that will take account of a wide range of factors. I welcome the interest from a large number of areas in hosting Civil Service jobs and hope to see that interest reflected in the opportunities that might arise from the review.
Mr Dallat:
On the basis of the Minister's personal experience in Derry, does he agree that the decentralisation of jobs is absolutely critical to the regeneration of all communities? Will he redress the disgraceful centralisation that took place during the dark years of direct rule?
Mr Durkan:
I need to be careful about saying too much about my own constituency. A further 20 Civil Service jobs in the pensions branch are to be located there, as a result of developments in the treatment of superannuation activities in some Departments.
Civil Service jobs make a significant contribution in any locality. I recognise the strong case that many Members make that the benefits should be evenly spread across Northern Ireland. I also recognise the difficulties with congestion in Belfast. We are trying to bring forward an overall review of accommodation strategy. We are bringing forward a policy that is about providing the Northern Ireland Civil Service with the accommodation that it needs for its business and management purposes. We will be glad to ensure that, as far as possible, the efficient supply and deployment of accommodation helps to achieve other benefits across the region.
Referral Dental Officer Position
3.
Mr B Bell
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel if he will detail in which newspapers advertisements were placed for the position of referral dental officer (job reference SB/85/00) in (a) English language text and (b) Irish language text, and what was the cost of each advertisement.
6.
Mr Leslie
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail how many applications for the position of referral dental officer (job reference SB/85/00) have been received by the Department in (a) the English language and (b) the Irish language.
Mr Durkan:
I will take questions 3 and 6 together.
The Recruitment Service, for which I am responsible, placed advertisements in English in the 'Belfast Telegraph,' the 'News Letter,' the 'Irish News' and the 'British Dental Journal'. Excluding VAT, the costs were £955, £618, £477 and £1,113 respectively. I understand that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety placed advertisements in Irish in a number of newspapers. It is for the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to answer any questions relating to advertisements placed by her Department. The Recruitment Service has received six applications for the post - all in English.
3.45 pm
Mr B Bell:
I thank the Minister for his reply in English. The advertising charge of £3,000 - the Minister did not give the Assembly any figures for the other advertisement - is exceptionally high, given that the position has a salary scale of £31,000 to £52,000. It is a deplorable waste.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Do you have a question? This is your opportunity to ask it.
Mr B Bell:
Surely, I am also entitled to a preamble.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Of course.
Mr B Bell:
Has the Minister any plans to discuss with his colleagues how such deplorable waste can be eliminated? I intended to ask a second question, but it has been said that all the replies to the advertisement were written in English.
Mr Durkan:
It is for each Department, not the Minister of Finance and Personnel, to decide what advertising is appropriate, according to the needs of the Department. The cost of advertising is significant, but if we did not advertise the posts - or if we varied the money to be spent on advertising according to salary scales - the level of equality of opportunity and open access to vacancies would be open to greater question. It is standard practice - and there is guidance on that - that advertisements be placed in a range of newspapers so that they will come to the notice of everyone who is eligible to apply.
The Recruitment Service has also recently launched a website that displays the details of every vacancy in the Civil Service, and I hope that it will be widely used. The site is useful, not just for people in the region, but for the many people who work elsewhere and who might have an interest in returning to work here. The service is accessible to people who cannot buy local newspapers.
Regional Rate
4.
Mr Close
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel if he will detail the equity of distribution of the regional rate among the population; and if he will make a statement.
7.
Mrs E Bell
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel if the proposed 8% increase in the regional rate has been equality proofed.
Mr Durkan:
I will take questions 4 and 7 together.
The regional rate is levied uniformly at a standard rate in the pound across Northern Ireland. Its impact on households will depend on the net annual value ascribed to each property and on the economic circumstances of each household.
The existence of rate rebates, as part of the social security system, means that the impact is lessened for those in the lower income bands. In that sense, in taxation jargon, it becomes more progressive. It is recognised that the system can be made more progressive, and that will be considered in the proposed review of the rating system, as has already been signalled to the Assembly. The setting of the level of and increases in the regional rate is scheduled for equality impact assessment by the Department of Finance and Personnel's draft equality scheme. That equality impact assessment is to be tied into the overall review of rating policy.
Mr Close:
The Minister says that he hopes to make the tax more progressive. I would prefer it if he recognised that the tax is quite regressive. It does not take into account the ability to pay and it hits those on fixed incomes, such as pensioners.
In the light of the regressiveness and inequity of this tax, will the Minister assure the House that when he comes to reassess the Budget with his Executive colleagues, it will not be increased by the proposed 8%, thus ensuring that those who are less well off, whose position he tacitly recognises, will not be further crippled?
Mr Durkan:
I suggested that at a certain level the rates could be seen to be more progressive than at other levels, because of the facility provided through the social security system. I am not claiming that the rates system overall is a progressive tax. When rate rebates are taken into account, research shows that the rates become more progressive in the lower half of the income distribution and that they are proportional for middle incomes and regressive in the higher part of income distribution. We are trying to improve the fairness of the rate burden on Northern Ireland's households. That is one reason for the rating review.
Recent research, based on the continuous household survey and the Robson index of deprivation at district council level, demonstrates a relationship between the degree of deprivation and the domestic regional rate burden per capita in district council areas and that the domestic regional rate burden per capita generally increases as the level of deprivation decreases. Therefore the picture is not as bad as the Member has painted it. That is not to say that there are no anomalies and inequities in the system that should be examined. In particular, I recognise the position of some older householders, especially if they are single occupants.
Mrs E Bell:
The Minister is obviously aware of the problems that rates cause for people on low incomes. Can he assure the House that the rating review will take account of equality impact assessment so that people will not be in the position that they are in at present? It is an unequal system. What is the present state of the rating review?
Mr Durkan:
I repeat what I said in the original answer. As part of the Department of Finance and Personnel's draft equality scheme, a commitment has been made for an equality impact assessment on the setting of the rates. It is sensible to tie that work in with the broader rating review. Proposals on that review will be brought forward soon. We want to re-examine how revenue is taken from Northern Ireland's population to support public expenditure requirements. It is right that we make a contribution towards those public expenditure needs.
We do not want a situation in which we seem to criticise the Barnett formula - as the Member's Colleague did - or where we appear to call for the formula to be changed because we want more money from English taxpayers and, at the same time, say that extra money should not be raised through the rates from the local population. We cannot win both those arguments. A review is needed. The review will examine how money is raised and how any inequities in the present system might be relieved. The review must make sure that revenue is raised, as well as dealing with the problems of particular groups.
Mr Hussey:
I trust that the review will take some cognisance of the difficulties of town centre traders as opposed to those in developments on the edges of towns. I am concerned about the equity of the distribution of finances raised from the regional rate, given that, in the main, the increases were intended for infrastructural improvement.
I refer to the answer to Mr McGrady's question about the decentralisation of Civil Service accommodation. There is a commitment to e-government in the Programme for Government. Therefore it is important that the infrastructure for e-government is in place throughout Northern Ireland. Will finance be made available for broadband infrastructural development throughout Northern Ireland?
Mr Durkan:
The Member's supplementary question took the scenic route around the points that we passed on the way.
In the review, we are trying to ensure that we have a rates system that delivers money for public expenditure services and does so in a way that the ratepayers find fair. It is also important that the money be spent in ways that the people believe to be fair and equitable. That is a constant challenge in our resource and spending planning.
The Member will be aware that there are proposed Executive programme funds in the Budget. One of those funds relates to infrastructure and capital renewal. We also said in the draft Budget statement that telecommunications is an area that might be addressed or assisted.
The Member will also be aware that the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, Sir Reg Empey, is sponsoring an information-age initiative and has made a commitment to the entire region in that regard.
Mr S Wilson:
Given the difficulties that the review of the rateable value caused for small businesses a couple of years ago, especially for shops on arterial routes, will the Minister bear in mind in this review the regressive effect of the rates system, especially on retail business?
Mr Durkan:
The review of rating policy and processes that we are talking about is separate from the non-domestic revaluation that I announced previously. That work is now being undertaken, but the results of the revaluation will not feed into rating bills until 2003.
We want to carry out a non-domestic revaluation now because we have learnt the lessons from the last one. Things had been left so long from the previous revaluation that there were considerable swings in the rateable valuation. Everybody affected at that time said that future revaluations should be regular and timely. We hope to do that.
People are already saying that some of the last revaluations have been overtaken by developments, not least the change in retail patterns. That is another argument in favour of a timely non-domestic revaluation.
Budget: Rural-Proofing
5.
Mr Paisley Jnr
asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel if he will confirm that the Budget has been rural-proofed.
Mr Durkan:
The allocations in the draft Budget are consistent with the strategic aims and priorities set out in the draft Programme for Government. One of the strands of the programme's key priority of securing a competitive economy is to work to regenerate the rural economy, and that includes a commitment to the new process of rural-proofing.
4.00 pm
Mr Paisley Jnr:
In reply to AQW 672/00, the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development informed me that there had not been a ministerial-led group established to proof all Government policies. Will the Minister campaign to ensure that that group is established soon? Anything else will make nonsense of any commitment to rural- proof the Budget or the Programme for Government.
Mr Durkan:
The Programme for Government contains a commitment to establish a ministerial-led group to proof all major Government policies and programmes in respect of their rural impact. All Ministers - myself no less than anybody else - are committed to that. I am glad that the Member is keen that measures proposed in the Programme for Government be implemented.
Mr Deputy Speaker:
Members, including the Minister, should be brief.
Mr Byrne:
What resources were made available in the Budget, the October statement and the EU programme, specifically for agriculture and rural development initiatives?
Mr Durkan:
This year's budget provided £164·2 million, the October statement saw a further £6·7 million allocated, and the EU Peace Programme provided £4·4 million. Therefore the total is £175·3 million for the year. The Member will be aware that £190·9 million is projected in next year's draft Budget and a further £9·6 million will come from Peace II. That will be £200·5 million - a 14·4% uplift.
(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)
Fire Service
Mr Shannon:
I beg to move
That this Assembly calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to make representations to the Secretary of State for a state award that will recognise the great sacrifice and commitment to duty of members of the Fire Service in Northern Ireland.
This is an opportunity to bring to the Assembly an issue that is important to many Members. We felt that we might have had the opportunity to bring the matter up a few weeks ago, but we were unable to do so. However, the opportunity has been granted today, and Members have a chance to voice support for the Fire Brigades Union, the Fire Brigade and those who work therein.
The motto of the Fire Service is "unitate fortior" - unity is our strength. It is appropriate and sums up the motion before us today. It was adopted in 1973 when the Belfast Fire Service and the Northern Ireland Fire Service amalgamated. The Fire Service has faced the worst evils that man could throw at it. Along with the RUC and the Army, the Fire Service has borne the brunt of the atrocities that occurred during 30 years of troubles. Members will recall some of the worst atrocities: the Remembrance Day service bomb blast in Enniskillen; the Droppin' Well at Ballykelly; the Abercorn Restaurant; Bloody Friday in Oxford Street; La Mon House Hotel in Castlereagh; McGurk's Bar; the Shankill Road; and Omagh. The loss of life at those terrible incidents was horrendous, and members of the Fire Service, along with others, scrambled through the rubble and debris to find anyone still alive. They were also there to give urgent medical attention and support to those still alive or close to death. That was life in the Fire Service.
Men and women from both sides of the community served all the people bearing the brunt of terrorist attacks, without thought for themselves. Nine members of the Fire Service were killed, and thousands more were injured as a result of dedication to their job and to their vocation. The injuries are not only physical; many members of the Fire Service have suffered from post- traumatic stress disorder, and many still suffer. That was first diagnosed after the Gulf War and the Falklands War, but you do not have to be in the Army, the Navy or the Air Force to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. Some Fire Service personnel are shadows of their former selves because of that disorder. Can you imagine the effect of carrying dead children out of a bomb site or attending to those who have sustained horrific burns, with many others blown to pieces? In some of the worst incidents, the only way to collect the bodies was with a shovel and a bag. That would have a serious effect on anyone's mind. Many members of the Fire Service suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, with little or no prospect of getting better. We cannot, and should not, forget them. Today we have the opportunity to put things right.
Did the outrages end with the peace process and the agreement? The answer is "No". Statistics show that the Fire Service has attended just as many, if not more, civil disturbance incidents since 1996. The highest number of incidents took place in 1998. Those figures equal the worst of the 30 years of the troubles. During that time of war and savage violence, the Fire Service carried out its work with true dedication and loyalty to the whole Province. Firefighters served everyone in Northern Ireland, right across the spectrum.
There are currently 2,000 members of the Fire Service. Fifty-five per cent are full-time, and 45% are part-time. There are also many who have retired or who have had to give up service for medical reasons - for example, post-traumatic stress disorder. The Fire Service has given much, without the financial or manpower resources of fire services in other parts of the United Kingdom. Essex, which is only 30% of the size of Northern Ireland and has a smaller population, has a larger budget, more up-to-date fire equipment and more full-time firefighters than Northern Ireland and can call on the help of its neighbours, Sussex and Suffolk. In Northern Ireland, the Fire Service attended almost 10,000 more incidents in one year than that in Essex. That illustrates the shortfall.
The Northern Ireland Fire Service has worked above and beyond the call of duty. It is totally committed to serving the whole community. It carried out its duties while it was under-resourced and sometimes undermanned. It gave best value in the past, gives it now and will continue to give it in the future. For those reasons, it is important for the Assembly to make representations to the Secretary of State for a state award.
In my discussions with the Fire Service, the Fire Authority, other Members and constituents, all have said to me that they want a state award that will reflect accurately the esteem in which the Fire Service is held. A corporate award, perhaps in the form of a stained-glass window in a public building or a monument in a public place, would also show recognition, but we want a state medal to reflect public opinion. We want to see a medal struck by royal warrant that could be worn on a tunic in special recognition of all that the Fire Service has done. The Secretary of State could make such an award under his delegated powers, and we urge him to do so.
The Fire Brigades Union and the Fire Authority are united in the belief that the correct way to show recognition is through a state medal. That is something that the citizens of Northern Ireland would agree with. I have been inundated with requests from constituents who want the Fire Service to receive a state medal as recognition. In the 30 years of the troubles and subsequently, the Fire Service has shown dedication and commitment to the job at hand. Without concern for their safety, members have shown singular courage and energy in safeguarding property and saving lives with limited resources and manpower. Their work has saved countless lives. Today, many owe their lives to an unknown firefighter who was simply doing his job, without looking for special treatment. They are humble men and women doing their best for society. They deserve a state metal struck under royal warrant.
Mr O'Connor:
I beg to move the following amendment: Delete all after "Assembly" and add
"will institute an Assembly award that recognises the great sacrifice and commitment to duty of members of the Fire Service in Northern Ireland, and liaise with the Fire Service unions/representatives to examine any further awards."
The amendment is in keeping with what was decided at last week's Executive meeting. It is also in line with the statement that the Minister made this morning. About an hour ago, that statement was warmly welcomed on television by the Fire Brigades Union. I spoke to some of its members before coming into the Chamber, and they warmly welcomed the Minister's statement. Mr Shannon is 100% right when he talks about the dedication to duty shown by those people. Some of them have pulled people out of burning bars, and it is an awful indictment of our society that they have had to undergo such traumatic incidents over and above the type of fires that a fireman ordinarily has to deal with. Firemen have been left to pick up the pieces of some of the most horrific acts of violence. I agree that there is a need to recognise what they have done, but better terms and conditions would be important steps towards achieving that.
Mr Shannon referred to the lack of numbers. In some cases, fire crews should be strengthened to enable them to do their job fully. The amendment will not preclude any further award, and it will allow us, as an Assembly, to make an award without requiring Peter Mandelson's permission. It will allow us to recognise the work that those people have done for this country over the years. In that spirit, I hope that the amendment will be well supported. We are not trying to score any points, but we need to present something that those people can say was awarded to them by the Assembly. Whether that takes the form of some kind of medal or a scroll is not for me to decide. However, the Assembly should institute some such award.
I and, indeed, my party are not normally in favour of political backslapping or giving awards. However, we believe that this case stands on its own merits. The service of the Fire Brigade and the men and women - unfortunately there are not all that many women - who risk their life should be recognised. If the amendment is accepted, that will in no way stop any further award being given by the Secretary of State. It would be an award made by the Assembly in recognition of the work done by the firefighters of this country. At a later date, as was suggested in the Minister's statement this morning, it could be a matter for the Executive, through the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, to recommend, in consultation with the Fire Brigade, any subsequent awards. Our positions are probably not all that far apart, but I believe that, as an Assembly, we should be allowed to express ourselves in favour of the people who elected us and be able to recognise those people who have served our community rather than be totally dependent on the Secretary of State, who, ultimately, is not bound to accept any recommendation that the Assembly makes.
4.15 pm
Mr J Kelly:
Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister told the Assembly in June that many people owed their life to the courage and skill of our firefighters and the important contribution of brigade support staff. She said that she and her Executive colleagues wanted to recognise such outstanding service in an appropriate and acceptable way. I endorse that statement. It is important that we keep the award to the Fire Service separate from the extraneous political undertones coming from the DUP. Is the striking of a medal about symbolism rather than about honouring the firemen who serve the entire community? Is the striking of a medal to the firemen an indication that the Fire Service belongs to only one section of the community? That would dishonour the Fire Service and make it difficult for people from my community to support or join it.
We have already witnessed a culture of discrimination in the Fire Service that made it difficult for young Nationalists - young Catholics - to join. It was difficult because of the culture that had been created around the Fire Service by successive Unionist establishments and an attempt to perpetuate - [Interruption]. It is cultural discrimination, and when I spoke to the firemen's union even they admitted that over the years there had been an imbalance - [Interruption].
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order.
Mr J Kelly:
There has been - [Interruption].
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order.
Mr J Kelly:
There has been an imbalance - [Interruption].
Mr P Robinson:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. What does the issue of discrimination have to do with the motion?
Madam Deputy Speaker:
That is not a point of order - [Interruption].
Mr P Robinson:
Of course it is. Can a point of order be any more a point of order if it questions whether the person who is speaking is relating his remarks to the motion?
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I ask the Member to explain; we would like to hear what he has to say.
Mr J Kelly:
A LeasCheann Comhairle, I will explain.
In my opening paragraph I asked "Is the striking of the medal about symbolism?" If it is, then it is a divisive instrument that perpetuates the notion among Nationalists that there has been a culture of discrimination in the Fire Service. It is as simple as that. That fact was acknowledged by the firemen's union when we had discussions with it and it hopes to redress it. The awarding of a medal with royal assent will not encourage young Nationalists to join the Fire Service, and neither does flying a flag over a fire station.
Mr Hussey:
Will the Member tell me whether what he has just said has any relevance to those excellent brigade members in Strabane? It has not.
Mr J Kelly:
I am not suggesting that at all, Mr Hussey. What I am saying is that if we are to pursue the course that the DUP is suggesting -
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Please make your remarks through the Chair.
Mr J Kelly:
If we are to pursue that course, we will create further division in the Fire Service. I was asking whether the striking of a medal would engender further division in an already divided community. We would better serve the community by getting behind an award to the Fire Service that has the full support of the Assembly, rather than one party's using honour for the Fire Service to promote its own divisive political agenda.
We have heard time and time again from all parties about the need to strike out locally, to cure the ills of our Health Service, our education service and other elements of our infrastructure. This is a glorious opportunity for us, as an Assembly, to strike out on our own and devise some manner of rewarding, as honourably and completely as we can, the sacrifices that the Fire Service has made over the years.
I would also like to make a point about the culture of discrimination in the Fire Service that is perceived by the Nationalist community. I refer to the poor representation of women.
Mr Shannon:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. What has that to do with the motion? The Member is talking about discrimination, which has nothing to do with a state medal. He is not addressing the issue of the proposal at all.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
The motion relates to the Fire Service in general. The Member may continue.
Mr J Kelly:
To wind up - and there is a lot of winding up going on today - I must say that it is an opportunity for the Assembly, in consultation with the Executive, to strike out on its own and do something that is independent of divisive outside influences. This is our chance to honour the integrity, loyalty, good work and sacrifices of the Fire Service over the years.