Northern Ireland Assembly Flax Flower Logo

Northern Ireland Assembly

Monday 6 November 2000 (continued)

11.45 am

The reason this Bill comes before the House, and why it is necessary to initiate these reforms, is that we have seen a social revolution in how people wish to live together. Regrettably the traditional marriage family unit is now almost on a par with people simply cohabiting. There are other reasons for people to cohabit: family breakdowns, marriage breakdowns, and complicated life situations. The traditional family unit has been eroded - sometimes through choice, and sometimes not. In any event, the important thing to remember when dealing with this Bill is that we have a new situation, and we have to deal with that.In 1998 there were 6,743 live births outside marriage, which represents 28·5% of all live births. Interestingly 4,348 of those births were registered jointly - both parents were registered on the birth certificates of those children. This indicates - and research by the Department and the Office of Law Reform appears to confirm it - that people want to declare publicly they are the parents, and implicit in that is a father's accepting responsibility for his child. This Bill goes a long way to recognise that and enable unmarried fathers to acquire parental responsibility, an important public demonstration by unmarried fathers of that responsibility. This option is the best choice on the parts of the Department and the Office of Law Reform to deal with the new situation in society, and we should welcome the Bill.It is also fair to say that there has been a very low uptake of existing legal mechanisms. That indicates that people are unaware of them or find them too cumbersome. That is an important point to take into consideration. The low uptake does not represent an unwillingness to take up responsibility. If one looks at the overall figure, one sees that 64% of unmarried fathers and mothers are prepared to register a birth jointly, so there clearly is a willingness to accept responsibility.The Minister's proposed change to the law is to be welcomed. It is a common-sense way forward in this situation.

There was a reasonably good response to the Office of Law Reform's consultation paper. The responses were of good quality. There was a consensus of support for this change. I also welcome the change in the way that parentage is determined, insofar as body samples will now be permitted. That is a significant step forward, because such procedures are less invasive than blood sampling. That is in keeping with the advance in our technology for determining parentage. I welcome that as well.

Ms McWilliams:

The Minister used the word "cautious". Until the Bill goes through the Committee Stage I will remain cautious about what amendments will be accepted. This is clearly an important piece of legislation, particularly as it is to be introduced into Northern Ireland simultaneously with a number of other pieces of legislation such as the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill, which we discussed the week before last. There is some overlap between these two pieces of legislation, and the explanatory notes acknowledge that.I was pleased that the Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee addressed the overlap of Statutory Committee business. This issue has come up before in the Business Committee, and the Chairperson said that the Speaker had been asked to address it. Where the subject matter of a piece of legislation falls within the remit of more than one Committee, the Chairpersons of those Committees should consult and agree to which Committee the matter should fall for disposal.I am happy for this Bill to be considered by the Finance and Personnel Committee at this stage. However, the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee is currently dealing with an inter-country adoption Bill. That will be with us shortly. That Bill also addresses the issue of stepfathers and adoption. It may be important for our Committee to be asked to look at this, because Standing Order 48(2) goes further.My question to the Minister is: was the question of which Committee should accept this Bill discussed in detail? I am aware that the Office of Law Reform's responsibilities are part of the Minister's portfolio, but given the particular details of this Bill, and given that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is currently dealing with children's rights and parental responsibilities, that process must be elaborated.At this stage it is going to the Department of Finance and Personnel. I suggest that the public be made aware of that. The public does not understand the workings of the Assembly. I know that the Office of Law Reform had a consultation paper. As this goes through the Committee Stage, many people may think that this is something to do with children - which it is - and will not, therefore, be aware that the Department of Finance and Personnel is dealing with it.The Assembly ought to look at ways of publishing its future business, showing which Committees are accepting which pieces of legislation. That is what the Oireachtas does. That should be published in newspapers. Given the impact of this legislation, parents - particularly those who have children outside marriage - should be made aware of the changes we are about to make.Regarding the overlapping of Committees, I hope that the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee will be invited to look at this issue and report to the Finance and Personnel Committee. When we came into the Assembly we made the important point that when dealing with children and families we should highlight interdepartmental responsibility and should not let anyone down by simply putting an issue into one box. Given the Health, Personal Social Services and Public Safety issues currently being discussed, I make a plea for us to have the right to make that input. I hope that will be welcome.I would like the Minister to address further the issue, highlighted in his introduction, that a court may terminate some orders. This is probably the major concern. Alban Maginness addressed the issue of the changes in families and social trends. Some 7,000 children are born outside marriage, yet the Minister tells us that parental responsibility orders are in place for fewer than 200 of them. This will have a huge impact. The Minister may not be able to give me an immediate response, but how many of the 7,000 born outside marriage are jointly registered? Probably time will tell, given James Leslie's understanding that joint registration is at the discretion of the mother. That may alarm some women, particularly in cases of violence. That is one of my major concerns, and I am therefore interested in the Minister's point.I would like more detail on this. Parental rights may be laid down by joint registration, but shortly thereafter enormous problems can arise. For the protection of children and women, a court needs to address that issue very carefully. I note, from the human rights section of the explanatory notes, that it was argued, in the case of McMichael versus the UK, that the non-automatic granting of parental rights to unmarried fathers was a justified interference with family life to protect the rights of others - women and children - from unmeritorious fathers.Not much has changed since that case went through. That is where my major concern lies. I have worked closely with those experiencing the enormous problems that arise in cases of sexual and physical abuse towards both children and their mothers. An issue also arises about custodial rights. It is extremely important that that should be addressed very carefully.On the issue of non-invasive methods of determining parenthood, it again looks as though a step forward is being taken. Anything non-invasive can only be useful, and we welcome the consultation process on this. The Children's Law Centre, and others, may have some concerns on how this will be carried out.

One of the largest problems is the determining of biological parenthood in the case of a father. Clearly that matter has wide implications for the Department for Social Development - it caused quite a discussion in the Assembly when the issue of child support came up. The biggest concern is whether this is a piece of legislation that can enable biological fathers to be determined - so that child support can then be paid accordingly - or whether it is for humanitarian reasons. All Assembly Members have been lobbied by a group called Families Need Fathers, which argues that Northern Ireland is dissimilar to England and Wales in relation to the rights of fathers. I ask the Minister to address that matter.

12.00

It seems that the point we are making today is that we are the first to introduce this legislation. In its responses to consultation, Families Need Fathers argued that it would like the situation in Northern Ireland to be similar to the situation everywhere else. That is causing some confusion. I take it that we are the first.

It is also important that this is seen as a package of family law reform. I am familiar with the excellent work carried out by the Office of Law Reform to date. I take the opportunity to commend it for leading the field on family law in Northern Ireland. Were it not for the work of the Office of Law Reform many families would have suffered because of the consequences of not taking on board recent trends and changes that research showed would need to be noted when legislation was being introduced in Northern Ireland. With that in mind I hope that the Office of Law Reform will follow that excellent tradition and that we will not introduce legislation which might lead to problems further down the road.

Mr Dodds:

I generally welcome the proposals contained in the Bill, and I concur with a number of the comments that have already been made. I want to make some specific points, and I look forward to dealing with the Bill when it comes before the Finance and Personnel Committee.The clause relating to the presumption of parentage is, as the Minister has said, a tidying-up exercise. It puts existing common law on a statutory footing. That will not cause any great controversy.The clause dealing with tests for determining parentage is a step forward. The Minister indicated that the clause is in line with proposals and practices elsewhere, and he mentioned other parts of the UK, the Republic of Ireland, and so on. I am keen to know whether this matter has been given statutory effect in any of those regions or countries. The issue of "guinea-pigging" has been raised. Are we the first to give this matter legislative effect? The Minister seemed to indicate that it was happening elsewhere. The Bill is welcome nonetheless.

My main point concerns the first substantive clause, which deals with how unmarried fathers acquire legal parental rights. As the Minister indicated, the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 sets out the current position in relation to acquiring parental responsibility, which is defined as

"all the rights, duties, powers, responsibilities and authority which by law a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his property."

That takes us so far, but it does not set out what those rights, duties, powers and responsibilities are. It is almost nebulous. There are various provisions in law that deal with the issue. However, does the Minister, his Department or the Office for Law Reform have any plans for further defining those parental rights, duties powers, and so on? Have they considered what those rights should be as part of their work on this Bill or perhaps for a future Bill? They are not defined at present.Mr Maginness pointed out the figure of 28·5% as the number of live births outside marriage in 1998 in Northern Ireland. He rightly highlighted the impact of that figure. More than a quarter of all babies in Northern Ireland are born outside marriage. That is a significant figure, and it represents an issue that needs to be addressed, a major social issue, for which there are many reasons. It is interesting that in the case of almost 60% of live births the unmarried father registered jointly with the mother and, in so doing, was making a statement about taking legal responsibility. In many cases, as has been said, they were probably not aware that, in law, this was a pretty meaningless exercise. The purpose of this legislation is very welcome. It will be in line with what people think they are signing up to.The Minister said that under the new provisions an unmarried father could only register with the agreement of the mother. We will look at this in detail when it comes before the Committee, but I would like to ask whether that provision - that caveat, as it were - is contained in the legislation. Will it be a statutory provision that a mother can refuse to allow the unmarried father to be registered? If it is not in the Bill, I would be interested to know where it is contained. It is important, as a number of Members have said, given the fact that registration will have a legal effect, which it does not have at the moment. Clearly we will look at some of these issues in detail, but it would be helpful if the Minister could give us an outline answer at this stage to some of the questions that have been asked.

In general terms, this Bill is to be welcomed, and we will certainly give it a fair wind.

Dr O'Hagan:

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the idea that this Bill should have a cross-departmental focus, particularly when it comes to health, social services and public safety. It is a Bill that needs to be dealt with sensitively and sensibly. My party has already been in preliminary consultations with individuals and groups - the stakeholders in this area - and a number of concerns have been expressed, particularly by people working at the coalface with victims of abusive relationships. There are some concerns that the parental responsibility order will be used by some men as a means of controlling the mother. I am not saying that that will happen in every case. It is also very clear that there are unmarried fathers who want to play a very positive role in the upbringing of their children. There needs to be a balance of the rights of mothers, fathers and children.There are also some concerns about the future. What impact will this have, for example, on schooling or if a child goes into hospital? A father who may not have had anything to do with the day-to-day upbringing of the child - and in most cases it is the mother who is responsible for the day-to-day rearing of the child - could have an equal right to register the child in school and make decisions about hospital treatment.We need to be very careful. Many concerns have been expressed about this Bill. Like Monica McWilliams, I urge the Minister and his Department to ensure that members of the public are made fully aware that this Bill is before the Committee.

Wide consultation is needed with groups such as Families Need Fathers, women's groups and lawyers, who are at the coalface defending and helping single mothers and victims of abusive relationships. I would like to see a good deal more debate on this, and I urge the Department to ensure that public consultation is as wide as possible during this Bill's passage through the Committee Stage. Go raibh maith agat.

Mr Durkan:

Clearly, Members appreciate that this reform measure will have a significant impact on family relationships in Northern Ireland. I must rehearse certain points in order to deal with Members' questions. In examining these law reform measures we have taken account of views expressed during the consultation which was carried out after the Office of Law Reform issued its proposals. I can reassure people that human rights and equality issues have been given particular consideration and that this will continue. We want to ensure that the rights of children are enhanced and that they are never compromised.Mr Leslie welcomed the Bill and sought reassurance that the legislation would not apply retrospectively. The Bill will have no material effect on the legal responsibilities of parents of children whose births have already been registered. Similarly, we will ensure that there is a strong public awareness of the Bill. We will also try to ensure that a greater number of existing fathers are made more aware of the provisions available to them. Several Members have indicated that some fathers are making incorrect presumptions about current legal provisions. A widespread publicity campaign for the new legislation is expected.Mr Leslie also asked me to confirm that joint registration is at the discretion of the mother. This is the case, and it is clear in the legislation. Mr Dodds asked if this is provided for in statute and, if so, how. The mother's right to refuse registration by the father is already contained in the Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, and the Bill will not change this.

As Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee, Mr Molloy made several points about procedure and asked which Committee would be best placed to consider the Bill. When the Assembly decides which Committee can best consider this legislation - whether it be an existing Committee or some other arrangement is made - I will support that choice. The Office of Law Reform is part of the Department of Finance and Personnel under statute and under the agreement. The Finance and Personnel Committee is there to advise and assist me as Minister, so I will consult with that Committee on any proposal for legislation within my ambit. I am open to suggestions from the Committee and the Assembly on where such a Bill might best be considered and on how best to take on board the insights and interests of other Committees. I am used to dealing with an increasing number of Committees these days, so one more would not be too much of a problem.

12.15 pm

I hope that no question will arise of the legislation's being orphaned because, while several Committees have a degree of interest in it, none has sufficient interest to deal with it all. We must not get into a situation where it is difficult to get Committees to consider legislation which the Office of Law Reform believes important for the Assembly. As Mr Molloy and Prof McWilliams have pointed out, we all need to give more thought to how best the Assembly can consider these matters.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Mr Molloy also stressed the need to balance the human rights of children with those of parents. This Bill takes the rights of unmarried fathers and mothers and their children into account. What are the legally recognised rights and the legally presumed rights of unmarried fathers? In the agreement and in section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act, commitments and provisions were made to ensure equality of treatment, and one of the issues which confronts us is that of unmarried parents. We need to bear the equality principle in mind when deciding how to deal with some of these issues.Mr Maginness noted that the legislation takes account of changing family relationships and referred to the many births which are jointly registered at present. Almost 64% of the births that take place outside marriage are jointly registered. Members may make their own assumptions about what that figure represents. Like Mr Maginness, Mr Dodds interprets it to mean that a large number of unmarried fathers want to take parental responsibility. It is probable that they believe that they are doing just that by jointly registering. They may not be aware that they need to take separate legal action to ensure that their responsibility and relationship are legally recognised.Under the existing provisions of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 an unmarried father may acquire responsibility for a child. Obviously we want to make this information readily available, understandable and accessible in our new legislation. People need to be made aware of these changes to understand the system which will apply in future and to understand that it does not have retrospective application. To this end, there will be an information campaign.Prof McWilliams raised a question on whether the power of the courts to terminate parental responsibility had been fully explored. Provision to terminate the recognition of parental responsibility already exists in statute and is not diminished by this legislation. Obviously, it will need application to the court.Prof McWilliams also asked about the motive behind the legislation, possibly because of other legislation that has come through, and whether the legislation was more to do with enabling particular payments than with anything else. The purpose of the legislation is to encourage and to facilitate unmarried fathers to have a full and legal relationship with their children, something that the vast majority of unmarried fathers and mothers wish to see.Prof McWilliams also made the important point that the Bill should not be seen in isolation but in the context of a much wider package of family law provisions and reforms. I want to join with Ms McWilliams in commending the work of the Office of Law Reform in keeping family law under constant review. The office has recently consulted on reforms to divorce law, to the physical punishment of children and to improvements in domestic violence legislation. I will bring any further reform measures to the Executive and Assembly.The Bill's intention is to implement the considered outcome of the reforms that were put out to consultation in July 1999. Other reforms may be forthcoming, but we can only bring forward those reforms that have been the subject of due consultation, especially as many Members have stressed the importance of public reflection.Nigel Dodds raised the issue of the rationale behind the statutory presumptions of paternity and what happens elsewhere. Other jurisdictions are considering some of the issues we are currently discussing. There are proposals in Scotland, England and Wales that joint registration of a child's birth should confer parental responsibility on the unmarried father. The Republic requires that a child's birth should be jointly registered before a court will issue a consent order providing for an unmarried father to be a child's guardian.This Bill's provisions are somewhat different. Clause 2 seeks to clarify the common law presumption about married fathers and recognise the de facto situation that a man registered as a child's father is that child's father. As Mr Dodds said, it is a tidying-up operation. Common law is increasingly being replaced by statute, which is more accessible and more easily understood. In relation to Mr Dodds's question, Scotland already has those statutory presumptions.Mr Dodds also spoke about the definition of parental responsibility. The term "parental responsibility" is now understood by the courts. We perhaps need to be careful about defining the term more specifically in legislation, as that may be unduly restrictive. The current position allows for a degree of flexibility to cover the wide variety of circumstances in which it is required before the courts. I have already dealt with some of Mr Dodds's other points.Dr O'Hagan raised the question of violence against women and children and, in particular, registered the concern of some key interests that the provisions of the Bill may create some greater risks. I stress that minimising the risk of violence in family relationships is a major priority of mine with the development of family law. The Bill will not increase the risk of violence between partners or towards their children. An unmarried father or a step-parent's parental responsibility can always be terminated by court order if it can be proved that it would be in the interest of a child to do so.The existing legislation on domestic violence, sponsored by the Department of Finance and Personnel through the work of the Office of Law Reform, is already recognised as one of the most progressive pieces of legislation of its kind. The operation of that legislation is currently under review to ensure that it affords all victims of domestic violence the protection they deserve.Guidance issued to schools, education and library boards and teachers' unions by the Department of Education on 16 June 1999 set out the current law on parental responsibility and its implications for schools. The guidance deals with the position of unmarried fathers, on which my officials were consulted. Officials in the Office of Law Reform will liaise with colleagues in education about the need to issue fresh guidance once the Assembly has finalised the content of the Bill.The consultation paper on which the proposals are based was published in July 1999. It was sent to 185 individuals and organisations representing local community and voluntary groups, health boards and trusts, churches, the legal profession, academics, men's and women's groups, the judiciary and all the main political parties in Northern Ireland. Thirty-four substantive responses were received from all the main bodies involved. These were well considered and generally supportive. However, some points of concern have been registered, and we want to ensure that they, as well as all other considerations, are fully reflected on as the Bill goes through its Assembly stages.

I hope I have covered all the points raised by Members. If not, I am sure I will be made aware of that shortly. Any outstanding points will be dealt with in writing in due course.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That the Second Stage of the Family Law Bill [NIA Bill 4/00] be agreed.

Weights and Measures (Amendment) Bill: 
Consideration Stage

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Mr Speaker:

No amendments have been tabled, so I propose, by leave of the Assembly, to group the five clauses of the Bill.

Leave granted.Clauses 1 to 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.Schedule agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

Mr Speaker:

That concludes the Assembly's consideration of the Weights and Measures (Amendment) Bill, which now stands referred to the Speaker.

The sitting was suspended at 12.30 pm.

On resuming -

 

Oral Answers to Questions

Office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister

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2.30 pm

Mr Speaker:

Questions 6, 12 and 13 will now receive written answers from the Department of Finance and Personnel. Also, I am advised that Mr George Savage and Mr Tom Benson are unable to be here and that the questions in their names have been withdrawn.

British-Irish Council

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2.

Mr Leslie

asked the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the work of the British-Irish Council.(AQO 237/00)

The Deputy First Minister (Mr Mallon):

The British-Irish Council (BIC), established under the Good Friday Agreement, is an important forum for exchanging information and consultation in endeavouring to agree on matters of mutual interest. It has the potential to benefit all the regions represented. To date, there has been one plenary meeting of the BIC and one sectoral meeting. The Council agreed a programme of work at the plenary meeting on 17 December 1999. It was decided that five areas of work would be taken forward in sectoral format. The Irish Government are leading on drugs, the Scottish Executive and the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales are jointly working on social inclusion, the Northern Ireland Executive will take the lead on transport, Jersey will lead on the knowledge economy and the British Government on the environment.

A sectoral meeting on the environment was held in London on 9 October 2000. The Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Education attended. Earlier today, the Minister of the Environment made a statement on the meeting, in which he informed the Assembly that the environment sectoral group discussed a wide range of future priority areas. In the next few months, that group will consider radioactive waste from Sellafield, the impact of climate change and waste management. It is anticipated that the next plenary meeting of the BIC will take place this month in Dublin and will focus on the issue of drugs.

Mr Leslie:

I thank the Deputy First Minister for his comprehensive answer and trust that his worthy aspirations will soon be transposed into action. I hope that the frequency of the meetings will increase.

In view of the legacy of poor transport co-ordination between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom resulting from direct rule, can the Deputy First Minister assure me that specific attention will be paid to improving transport links between Northern Ireland and Scotland and the north of England?

The Deputy First Minister:

The Member raises an important point. Transport links with cities in Scotland, England and Wales are crucial for the people of Northern Ireland. This matter was raised at the first plenary meeting of the BIC. It was also raised at the first meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, and it will be deliberated upon further at future BIC meetings. I have no doubt that the Minister of the Environment will wish to take it forward.

Mr McMenamin:

Can the Deputy First Minister assure us that the transport sectoral meeting will proceed within the BIC and North/South Ministerial Council context? Will he press the Minister for Regional Development to fulfil his obligations? Failing that, will the First Minister or the Deputy First Minister assume this urgent responsibility?

The Deputy First Minister:

The Northern Ireland Executive will be leading the transport sectoral meeting of the British-Irish Council. The First Minister and I will be responsible for taking this issue forward in the absence of co-operation from the Minister responsible, the Minister for Regional Development. In relation to the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) transport sectoral meeting, the First Minister and I will be pressing the Minister for Regional Development to meet the responsibilities of his office, and we shall ourselves take responsibility for proceeding on this issue. An NSMC transport meeting has been proposed for the second half of November.

The Chairperson of the Committee of the Centre (Mr Poots):

Can the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister confirm that the British-Irish Council will continue in its present format and that the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will not stop IRA/Sinn Féin Ministers from attending?

The Deputy First Minister:

I thank the Assemblyman for his question. The British-Irish Council meetings will proceed. The First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will make nominations and, as usual, will bring those nominations to the attention of the Executive and, through it, to the Assembly.

Mr Maskey:

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. In the light of the First Minister's recent stance on the attendance of Sinn Féin Ministers at North/South Ministerial Council meetings, what assurance do we have that the future functioning of the British-Irish Council will take place without such undemocratic interference, which is also a breach of his Pledge of Office?

The Deputy First Minister:

I thank the Assemblyman for his question, which is essentially the same as Mr Poots's. The answer remains unchanged. I repeat: nominations will be made on the basis of equity and reported to the Executive and, through it, to the Assembly.

Mr S Wilson:

First, I would like to say how nice it is to see that the Deputy First Minister and the First Minister have kissed and made up, and are sitting together again.

Does the Deputy First Minister agree that, given his previous response, it is somewhat hypocritical of the First Minister to have excluded IRA/Sinn Féin from meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council while at the same time finding their presence at the British-Irish Council acceptable? Is that not yet another example of a tame slap on the wrist for Sinn Féin, intended more to keep his party dissidents in line than to deal with the question of terrorists in Government?

The Deputy First Minister:

I thank the Assemblyman for the question, which - believe it or not - we had anticipated. I am glad he recognises that the First Minster and I have a very good personal relationship and that, in any political process, there will be divergences of opinion. The strength of any such process is that those divergences are overcome. I can assure the Assemblyman that the First Minister and I will do all we can to ensure that the institutions with which we are involved, and for which we have responsibility, proceed.

Mr Speaker:

Before a point of order is raised, I should say that I am not entirely sure - I shall have to check up on it - whether kissing and making up is parliamentary behaviour.

Review of Public Administration

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3.

Mr McFarland

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to provide an update on progress with a review of public administration; and to make a statement.

(AQO 234/00)

The First Minister (Mr Trimble):

The completion of the review of public administration is an important aspect of the draft Programme for Government. As that document makes clear, the Executive are committed to greater accountability at regional level than in the past and will expect greater accountability from all services through a more efficient and effective structure of administration at local level. Officials are currently carrying out preparatory work on the review for the Executive, and it is planned that the terms of reference and organisation of the review will be further considered by the Executive later this month.

Mr McFarland:

Can the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister confirm that, as a matter of urgency, the review will consider the large number of expensive and unelected quangos that have had such a detrimental effect in the past 25 years?

The First Minister:

It is called a review of public administration and is, as such, intended to cover comprehensively all the bodies outside the Departments. The Member will recall that, as far back as December 1998, when we agreed on the departmental structure, we gave a commitment to examine the administrative structure outside the Departments and to do what we could to achieve greater efficiency and to balance some of the additional costs resulting from the enlarged central structure.

Consequently, we will be looking seriously - and hope the review will too - at a whole range of issues, including the various quangos. I am not saying that all quangos are bad. We will look critically to see what is necessary, what will contribute to greater efficiency and accountability and what can be done better elsewhere, which could result in a number of different answers. The review will look at those things. Currently, we are examining the scope of the review, which will be comprehensive, and making the arrangements. We hope that this will be done as quickly as possible.

Mr P Robinson:

It is outrageous that the Minister responsible for the Department of the Environment should make a statement on his responsibilities at a party political gathering. The only other public utterance on this matter was from the First Minister at the SOLACE conference. They should have come instead to the Assembly or the Committee to give their views and say that a review was under way. Will the First Minister tell us what representations he has made to get the next local government elections postponed and thus save the hides of his Ulster Unionist Council colleagues from defeat - doing a "Burnside"?

The First Minister:

The Member's initial comments are completely wide of the mark. If he had only listened to my previous answer he would have heard that this issue was raised back in December 1998 and has been consequently mentioned here several times. I recall answering questions on this subject in the Assembly. The pretended shock of the Member that a statement was made by the Minister, quite properly, at our party conference is rather laughable.

With regard to his second question, he will discover how wrong his comments are. I would advise him to look at the 'Belfast Telegraph' opinion poll of a few weeks ago and see how the standing of my party has risen among the public while that of his party continues to decline.

Programme for Government
(Rural Areas)

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4.

Rev Dr Ian Paisley

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail how the Programme for Government has been rural proofed.

AQO 240/00

The Deputy First Minister:

The draft Programme for Government laid before the Assembly on 24 October recognises the importance of the rural economy and society to the life of Northern Ireland, and the need to ensure that full account is taken of rural issues when developing major policies and programmes. Rural proofing is a concept that involves reviewing all major policies and programmes in a structured way to ensure that any rural dimension has been fully taken into account at the formulation stage. It is a commitment, in the draft Programme for Government, that all major policies and programmes will be rural proofed. The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development will take the lead on that issue and will establish a group to set out an overall approach to rural and countryside issues.

Rev Dr Ian Paisley:

The Deputy First Minister will be aware that the First Minister has just recommended that my Friend read the 'Belfast Telegraph'. I recommend that he read today's 'Belfast Telegraph' article on the pig industry. The amazing and tragic figures show that, within three years, the number of farmers in the Province with pig herds has more than halved - falling from 2,207 to only 960. If this trend continues we will have no viable pig industry in Northern Ireland.

Can he explain to the House - long before we have a report on the rural proofing that he is concerned about, and that I and my Committee are concerned about - what steps he can take now to step in and deal with this crisis?

The Deputy First Minister:

This is a serious question about a serious issue. The Member will recognise that it is a matter to be dealt with specifically by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. He should look at, as I am sure he has looked at, the various measures, which I will not repeat ad infinitum, in relation to agriculture that are included in the Programme for Government.

2.45 pm

Although I cannot give the Member any assurances in relation to the pig industry, I share his concern, which I will convey immediately to the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. I have no doubt that she will contact him in relation to that consultation.

Mr Bradley:

In the context of rural proofing, does the Minister share the farming community's anxiety about flood damage and losses due to unharvested crops and the risk to livestock and households? Will Northern Ireland receive a share of the additional resources being promised by the British Government to combat the effects of flooding?

The Deputy First Minister:

That question is particularly relevant at this time. Members will join with me in expressing sympathy for people in York and in various parts of England, Wales and the Republic of Ireland who are suffering dreadfully from flooding. I want to associate myself with the Member's concern about our own farmers and the problems that they face, especially in relation to livestock and certain crops.I can assure the Member that Northern Ireland will receive its full Barnett share of the £51 million package announced by the Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. That amount should be approximately £1·7 million. That aid package will be allocated over the coming years. Officials in the Department of Finance and Personnel will liaise with the Treasury on that.

The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development's Rivers Agency, as the drainage and flood defence authority in Northern Ireland, already has 100 flood-alleviation projects at various stages of investigation and development. The Executive will keep a close eye on the issue, which has enormous implications not only for the farming community but throughout rural and urban Northern Ireland. We will do everything we possibly can to help those who unfortunately may be affected by it.

Mr Ford:

I thank the Minister for his references to the urgency of rural proofing in Northern Ireland. Will he accept, however, that there are two major problems which arise from the Robson index of deprivation? First, it is significantly out of date. Secondly, particularly in rural areas, much poverty is hidden within more prosperous wards which does not appear in the index. Can the Minister give us an undertaking that those measures will be re-examined to ensure that we can rural proof properly in the future?

The Deputy First Minister:

That is a question that we are all concerned about. It is tempting to think of poverty in terms of urban areas. All of us know that this type of poverty exists in rural areas. It is more a lace-curtain poverty than may be obvious in urban areas. The Robson indicators are being re-examined in the light of the circumstances that we face today. It is essential that we all recognise the isolation and deprivation that exist in rural areas. That is why it is so important that we have rural proofing in relation to every aspect of the Administration.

Victims Units
(OFMDFM and NIO)

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5.

Mrs E Bell

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to clarify the relationship between the Victims Unit in their office and the Victims Liaison Unit in the Northern Ireland Office; and to make a statement.

(AQO 246/00)

The First Minister:

During direct rule, after receipt of Sir Kenneth Bloomfield's report 'We Will Remember Them', the Northern Ireland Office set up the Victims Liaison Unit. After devolution, and in recognition of the fact that many of the issues faced by victims fell within the transferred field, a Victims Unit was set up in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.In broad terms, the Victims Unit within OFMDFM has responsibility for all transferred matters, with the NIO retaining responsibility for reserved matters. The Junior Ministers in OFMDFM have met with Adam Ingram to discuss the most appropriate division of responsibilities between the two units. They are due to meet again soon.

Officials from both units are working closely together and endeavouring to ensure that the Northern Ireland Office and this Administration adopt a co-ordinated approach to meet victims' needs.

Mrs E Bell:

I thank the First Minister for his answer. I am sure that he agrees that this sensitive area requires a focused and one-track approach, because I - like other Members, I am sure - have heard from individual victims and victims' organisations that they are concerned about what is happening. They are unsure about the situation. I ask the First Minister to take that on board for future meetings.

The First Minister:

I appreciate the difficulties that have resulted from having two different groupings - one in the Northern Ireland Office and one in this Administration. That is necessary at present, because some of the issues that the Victims Liaison Unit deals with are clearly reserved matters, such as compensation.

In addition, this Administration has only recently established a Victims Unit. That is still developing, which is why we are currently engaged in discussions with the Northern Ireland Office. I refer the Member to the Programme for Government, which, I think, identifies six specific actions. We intend to develop a programme. We need to work with the Victims Liaison Unit, and we hope to make matters as user-friendly as possible for the various individuals and interests involved, but at present it is necessary for bifurcation.

Mr Dodds:

When dealing with the issue of victims, will the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister take into account the great hurt and concern of victims' families and others in the community about the amount of public money given in recent years to the victims of violence as compared to the amounts given to perpetrators of violence, many of whom were released prematurely from prison at the behest of the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and their supporters?

Will he also accept that the contrast between cash given to terrorists and cash given to victims adds insult to the injury that was inflicted on families when they saw those who perpetrated crimes against their loved ones walking free, seemingly without any justice being meted out?

The First Minister:

We are, of course, keenly conscious of victims' feelings and the need to ensure that victims' interests are not forgotten. That is why the Bloomfield Report was originally commissioned; that is why we are working on the matter. One difficulty is that, until recently, victims did not organise themselves in the way that other groups did. That has caused problems. There is also - I have to be frank - a problem caused by people who wish to exploit victims for political purposes. That is generally deprecated.

We want to develop our own operation in order to ensure that proper concern is observed. I cannot go into the question of funding, because we are not responsible for any funding at present. The Victims Liaison Unit and the core funding scheme that it administers deal with current funding. I am not in a position to comment on that. Our own unit, which is now being established, has among its objectives the development and management of a specific measure under the Peace II programme. We will be happy to accept responsibility for the operation of that measure when it starts.

Mr Maskey:

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Given that the Bloomfield Report actually reinforced the notion of a hierarchy of victims in many ways, can the First and Deputy First Ministers ensure, or at least try to guarantee, that the Victims Unit will in no way agree with that notional hierarchy? Although Members have different views about victims, there is obviously a range of victims in our society. Can the First and the Deputy First Ministers assure us that they will work to ensure that the Victims Unit reaches out proactively to all victims and organisations?

The First Minister:

It is the intention of the Victims Unit to be comprehensive when dealing with, or trying to address, the problems of victims. The question is, what is the definition of a victim? An all-encompassing definition of a victim is extremely difficult to determine, particularly as there is an element of self-definition involved. The interdepartmental working group has adopted the following definition:

"the surviving injured of violent conflict-related incidents and those close relatives or partners who care for them, along with those close relatives and partners who mourn their dead."

Ms McWilliams:

Will the First Minister at this stage - in the same way that he has been very proactive on the suggestion that we transfer the justice issue to Northern Ireland as soon as possible - consider a deadline for the closure of the Northern Ireland Office Victims Liaison Unit? To have two offices running simultaneously is creating confusion among the public.

Does he agree that although Assembly Members may understand the difference between transferred matters and reserved matters, victims do not? Does he also agree that the sooner Junior Ministers are clearly identified with a strategy for victims, the better it will be for those dealing with victims throughout the country?

The First Minister:

The Member is aware of the difference between reserved matters and transferred matters, and, at the moment, that necessarily produces a distinction between those matters still within the remit of the Northern Ireland Office. I would be delighted if we could resolve that situation through the devolution of more responsibility to this Administration.

We have set ourselves a target - for the Victims Liaison Unit and those transferred matters for which we are responsible - that by April 2001 we will put in place a cross-departmental strategy to ensure that victims' needs are met effectively. That strategy will be of some help to groups that currently have difficulty in knowing who to approach.

Mr Speaker:

As the Member due to ask the next question is not in the Chamber, we will move to question 8.

Disability Rights
(Equality Commission)

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8.

Ms Lewsley

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail what financial provision has been made for the Equality Commission to enforce disability rights.

(AQO 253/00)

The First Minister:

The Equality Commission has an overall budget of £6·949 million for the current year. That includes additional resources of £1 million that had been provided to the Equality Commission to enable it to carry out the enforcement of disability rights. Those rights are contained in legislation that was initiated in the Assembly. The Executive's budget proposals, which were announced by the Minister of Finance and Personnel on 17 October, include the continuation of this £1 million funding in the year 2001-02.

Ms Lewsley:

I ask that our Disability Rights Task Force ensure that it pays particular attention to the issue of employment Directives.

The First Minister:

The Member is referring to the recent EU Equal Treatment Directive, which is an important matter that is currently under consideration. The Directive has an impact on the operation of the UK Disability Rights Task Force, which reported, on which cross-border departments were in the process of considering their response. We now must consider the report in the light of the Equal Treatment Directive in order to ensure that what is done gives full effect to the directive.

Mr Wells:

Can the First Minister assure us that this new unit will have the same powers of investigation as the Equality Commission. Will it be able to search out injustices when it comes to this important issue?

The First Minister:

We are talking about the powers of the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission will have those powers. The Disability Rights Task Force was established to advise the Government, and it reported in December 1999. Its report is being considered in the light of the Equal Treatment Directive in order to ensure that what must be done is done over a wide range of services. The Equality Commission will police that activity.

Children

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9.

Mr Close

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister if it is intended to appoint a children's commissioner for Northern Ireland.

(AQO 250/00)

The Deputy First Minister:

The Executive are determined to ensure that our arrangements for protecting children and upholding children's rights are based on best practice. We will carefully examine key developments through Europe, including the Waterhouse Report on child abuse in north Wales, the appointment of a Children's Commissioner in Wales, a Children's Rights Director in England and an Ombudsman for Children in the Republic of Ireland.

We will also look at the roles of commissioners for children in the Scandinavian countries. In the light of those developments, the Executive Committee will consider what new arrangements are needed here when formulating proposals for the Children's Fund.

3.00 pm

Mr Speaker:

The time for Questions to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister is up. Unfortunately, not only the Member who put question 9 but several others who indicated a wish to ask questions will be unable to ask supplementary questions on this occasion.

Marketing of Farm Produce

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1.

Mr McGrady

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she will detail what action has been taken to resolve the problem outlined by the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee in its report 'Retailing in Northern Ireland - A Fair Deal for the Farmer' in relation to the absence of a comprehensive resource to assist farmers to identify, produce, package and distribute products to suit both their circumstances and those of the market; and if she will make a statement.

(AQO 224/00)

The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Ms Rodgers):

As I said before, I welcomed the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee's report as a balanced and pragmatic contribution to the debate on the difficulties currently facing the agrifood sector.The Department already devotes considerable effort and resources to enable farmers and the wider agrifood industry to meet market demands and exploit new opportunities. An example of that is the ongoing comprehensive programme of educating and training farmers to develop their business management skills and meet customer demands. That involves working with farm businesses and producer groups to develop the competencies necessary to identify market trends and respond positively to them.The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development also assists, through grant aid and technical support, the development of new technologies, products and processes for use by all links in the food chain. Collaboration in the marketing of produce is encouraged by providing financial support through the marketing development scheme. Capital grant assistance to improve the competitiveness of the agrifood sector is also provided through the processing and marketing grant scheme. I can confirm that that work is being enhanced.My announcement earlier this year of the development of a farmers' electronic portal - for which £240,000 has been provided this year, with a similar sum next year, coupled with associated enhanced IT facilities at the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development colleges - will help producers to take advantage of the opportunities that exist through information and communications technology, and e-commerce. The proposed additional funds of £1·4 million per annum that are to be allocated to support farm business development will also help in a practical way to enable primary producers to improve business performance.

The £2 million per annum being allocated to the beef sector to improve beef quality will help primary producers better meet the demands of the market.

(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)

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