Northern Ireland Assembly Flax Flower Logo

Northern Ireland Assembly

Monday 2 October 2000 (continued)

Mr Dallat:

I thank all the Members who took part in this debate, including my Friend Mr Paisley Jnr, who could have been more generous to me. Stupidity, rudimentary fashion, confused Willie - I am surprised he made any mention of sheep this morning, but anyway. Other Members were very constructive in their contributions. Many of them are from rural communities, and I know their hearts are with the motion, despite the fact that the debate began in a strange way and swung off at a tangent. There is nothing in this motion which will put anyone in a cul-de-sac or cause problems for them in the future. The credible independent impact assessment has been welcomed repeatedly. Moratoriums do not have to last for ever. They only need to last until there is a policy in place. Before he left, John Taylor said that the horse has already bolted for many people. It is right and proper that this suggestion is in place. For many people this debate has come too late. For many this Assembly came into being too late.

It would be unfortunate if this debate were used to pit one sector of the retail community against the other. That is not what is being suggested. I acknowledge that there are 20,000 people employed in major retail outlets, but the sector is dominated by what are commonly know as "the seven sisters of the superstores". The fear is that eventually this may develop into a monopoly, or even a cartel. I am pleased that there are representatives of 1,100 independent retailers listening to this morning's debate. They represent 20,000 people, and they have every reason to believe that there is a renewed threat to their jobs, as a new wave of competition comes from the United States and from Europe. I have not said anything to oppose the existing supermarkets. I shop in them myself. I would be a hypocrite if I suggested that they should not be there. However, there is time for a reassessment of the situation.

It is right and proper that this debate has taken place. I am pleased that, despite their opposition to the wording of the motion, most Members agree that it should be accepted. Perhaps those who are vehemently opposed to it need to take time off to visit the places that they named. I encourage Mr Paisley Jnr to talk to Moores of Coleraine and to the other independent retailers there. I am sorry he is not in the Chamber to listen to this.

Mr Paisley Jnr:

Oh yes, he is.

Mr Dallat:

Oh, he is. Why is he hiding in the back row?

Mr Paisley Jnr:

Does the Member want to give way to me?

Mr Dallat:

Perhaps the next time he is in Coleraine he will look up the unemployed workers of Reid's Bakery. Perhaps he will ask them what they think of the large superstores and what they did to their jobs. Perhaps he should go down to Tandragee and speak to the Tayto workers to find out how important the independent retail market is for their product. I hope he buys it, since he is a Member of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee.

He knows as well as I do that there are serious problems with the large multiples.

Mr Paisley Jnr:

Will the Member give way?

Mr Dallat:

Sorry. I am summing up. You had all the time in the world.

Let me emphasise that there is nothing negative in this motion. On the contrary, it is an acknowledgement that we have something special in Northern Ireland which is well worth protecting. Whether it be Cullybackey - that is in north Antrim, by the way - Cullyhanna, Kilrea or Kildress or, indeed, any other town or village, it is worth making an effort to ensure that for future generations communities continue to have shops and local services.

The same is true of urban areas and I am glad that Members from those areas contributed. Whether it be the Falls or the Shankill, the Cregan or Waterside, the same is equally true. Each year at least £750 million in net revenue is exported from Northern Ireland to the bank accounts of multinationals in other places. The prospect of their increased turnover through the proliferation of even more stores is a bleak one for Northern Ireland economy in the long term. It must be taken into account in future planning.

The circumstances in which we have found ourselves over the last 30 years means that our economy has had to undergo serious change squeezed into a five-year span. The Assembly has the opportunity to establish a clear policy that will protect the local retailing infrastructure. That will ensure that there continues to be a vibrant independent retail sector providing for the needs of our people and that there never can be a fear of monopoly.

Reference was made to 'Strategy 2010', which should be implemented. At the same time, consideration should be given to commissioning a retail capacity study as recommended by EDAW. There should be a strategic review of planning policy to make sure that the future structure of retailing in Northern Ireland best meets our unique economic and social needs.

Finally - and there was some reference to this - steps should be taken to implement existing legislation in relation to rural rates relief. We should also introduce the further measure of rates relief for small town centre retailers, again as recommended in 'Strategy 2010', to prevent more small shops closing and further damage to the retail economy.

Despite the divisions, this has been a good day for the Assembly. People will see that we are interested in the affairs of our local communities and we are concerned about the people who live and work there. Collectively, we could have demonstrated a common purpose to protect and preserve what is best. At the same time, we can make it clear that change, when it comes, must be controlled and managed, and does not have the potential for destroying the very things we hold precious - our people and the communities in which they live.

Many people in this community need protection. We have made a very strong case for the farming community, which I back totally. Fundamental change is taking place there, but nobody is arguing that it should not be managed and controlled. Those in the independent retail sector - 20,000 people - deserve some rights too.

Finally - and this is where there was some distortion - if there is not an independent retail sector the housewife will have no choice. People will become slaves to a monopoly. The second phase of that monopoly is on its way from America and Europe. Time does not stand still. This Assembly was set up to address these issues. By and large, they have been addressed this morning in a responsible manner by all Members, with, I regret to say, one exception.

Question put.

The Assembly divided: Ayes 33; Noes 39.

AYES

Gerry Adams, Alex Attwood, Joe Byrne, John Dallat, Arthur Doherty, Pat Doherty, Mark Durkan, John Fee, Tommy Gallagher, Carmel Hanna, Denis Haughey, Joe Hendron, John Kelly, Patricia Lewsley, Alban Maginness, Seamus Mallon, Alex Maskey, Barry McElduff, Michael McGimpsey, Gerry McHugh, Eugene McMenamin, Pat McNamee, Monica McWilliams, Francie Molloy, Jane Morrice, Conor Murphy, Mick Murphy, Mary Nelis, Danny O'Connor, Dara O'Hagan, Eamonn ONeill, Sue Ramsey, John Tierney. [Tellers: John Tierney and Eugene McMenamin]

NOES

Ian Adamson, Fraser Agnew, Billy Armstrong, Roy Beggs, Billy Bell, Tom Benson, Paul Berry, Norman Boyd, Gregory Campbell, Mervyn Carrick, Joan Carson, Wilson Clyde, Fred Cobain, Robert Coulter, Duncan Shipley Dalton, Ivan Davis, Nigel Dodds, David Ervine, John Gorman, William Hay, Derek Hussey, Billy Hutchinson, Gardiner Kane, Danny Kennedy, William McCrea, Alan McFarland, Maurice Morrow, Ian Paisley Jnr, Edwin Poots, Mark Robinson, Peter Robinson, Patrick Roche, George Savage, Jim Shannon, John Taylor, Peter Weir, Jim Wells, Cedric Wilson, Sammy Wilson.

Question accordingly negatived.

The sitting was suspended at 1.26 pm.

On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) -

Assembly Business

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2.30 pm

Mr Speaker:

I wish to advise the House that I have accepted a private-notice question, in the name of Mr Tommy Gallagher, to the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. The details of the question are in Members' pigeon-holes. The item will be on the annunciator, and the question will be taken, in accordance with Standing Orders, immediately before the Adjournment debate, which I expect to be tomorrow.

 

Oral Answers to Questions

Agriculture And Rural Development

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Mr Speaker:

I wish to advise the Minister that Mr Jim Wilson, in whose name question No 8 stands, has apologised for being unable to be here. The question will not be taken, but he will, of course, receive a written answer in the usual way.

Rural Development projects

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1.

Mr Fee

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she will outline what rural development projects have recently been launched, and if she will make a statement.

(AQO 105/00)

Ms Rodgers:

A number of rural development projects have been launched over recent months. I have taken part in several events, including the official opening of a quay development and slipway project at Gawley's Gate, near Aghalee in County Armagh. I went to the rural college in Draperstown to launch the community building skill workbook, to the launch of shoreline amenities and visitor facilities in Broughagh, County Tyrone, marina development and workspace units on the shores of Lough Neagh at Ballyronan, and an education, training and tourism development project at Slieve Gullion Courtyard in South Armagh. I am looking forward to further events over the coming weeks, including a tourism project at Houston's mill in Broughshane, Killcronaghan youth hostel and the official opening of workspace units, an information centre and a mill worker's cottage museum in Bessbrook.

These and many other local projects were brought together under my Department's 1994-99 rural development programme, and I am currently finalising proposals for the 2001-06 programme, which will bring further opportunities for rural communities.

Mr Fee:

I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she accept that over the last number of years, the rural development programme has given vitally important support to disadvantaged rural communities and that it is absolute essential that it continue over the next number of years?

It has been an extremely imaginative programme, and the division in her Department that administers it has been extraordinarily imaginative in the way that they have offered support to community projects. Will she accept that for that part of my constituency which is in South Armagh it is crucial that her officials continue to work with local community networks and groups to provide opportunities to create employment through alternative agriculture and to provide new opportunites in tourism?

Ms Rodgers:

I thank the Member for his question and, indeed, for his comments. I obviously agree with Mr Fee that rural development has brought opportunities to communities throughout rural Northern Ireland. It has focused on the more disadvantaged areas and has had a very positive impact on all of those areas, particularly in respect of job creation and of sustaining jobs.

As the Member rightly says, much of the border region falls into that catagory, and a good example of community and business opportunity is currently being brought forward by Oriel Developments Ltd, a community-based partnership company operating in Mr Fee's own constituency, at Flurrybridge. The company is developing a rural enterprise park on the border to encourage the development and expansion of businesses in the area. This is, indeed, an important flagship project for the region, and I am looking forward to its launch in the early part of next year.

Mr Kane:

Does the Minister feel confident that the uptake under the new rural development programme will happen in a short enough time frame to allow the benefits from these new policies to compensate for the loss of the safety net of less favoured area (LFA) payments?

Ms Rodgers:

I do not think I heard the whole question, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker:

Would the Member like to repeat it? I heard it, but I am not sure that it is in order. It seemed to go fairly wide of the question on the Paper.

Mr Kane:

Is the Minister confident that the uptake of the new rural development policies will happen in a short enough time to allow the benefits of those new policies to compensate for the loss of the safety net for LFA payment?

Ms Rodgers:

I am not sure that the question is in order, but I will answer it anyway. I think that the Member is talking about the safety net for LFA payments, which stretches over three years. I would be extremely surprised if, by that time, we were not in a position to deal with shortfalls or other problems that arise for farmers. The safety net is designed to allow farmers some leeway while they adjust to the new system of payment and to ensure that they are compensated during that period and that there is no loss on their part. I would be extremely surprised if the other elements of the programme were not in place by then.

Rural Development Regulation Plan

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2.

Mr Dallat

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she will outline the main aspects of her Rural Development regulation plan and if she will make a statement.

(AQO 103/00)

Ms Rodgers:

The rural development regulation plan for Northern Ireland, which was submitted to the EU Commission on 25 September for final approval, marked the culmination of a period of comprehensive consultation with the industry, the Agriculture Committee and other interested organisations. It also represents the outcome of intensive negotiations with the Commission on content and with the Treasury on funding. Overall, the plan submitted to Brussels is worth £266 million to Northern Ireland farmers between 2000 and 2006. It provides for a significant expansion of our agri-environment programme and of the area of private forestry, as well as the mandatory replacement of the hill livestock compensatory allowances scheme with an area-based LFA support scheme.

I am particularly pleased that, in the case of the LFA scheme, I was able to secure an additional £31·7 million over the period until 2004, on top of the provision that had originally been budgeted for when my preliminary proposals were tabled with the Commission in February. This represents a significant improvement for Northern Ireland hill farmers and places the financing of hill support on a much more secure footing than has been the case in recent years. The additional provision within the plan for the agri-environment and forestry measures will be welcomed by farmers and environmentalists alike and will allow for a significant expansion of these programmes between now and 2006. My officials were in Brussels last week to discuss the draft plan, and I am optimistic that it will be approved later this month.

Mr Dallat:

The Minister's answer is encouraging. Does she agree that the safety net negotiated in Brussels will be of critical importance to farmers over the next three years? Can she elaborate on that?

Ms Rodgers:

I agree that the safety net is of crucial importance to farmers, because of the movement from headage-based payments to area-based payments. It removes the uncertainty that they were facing under the new scheme and assures everyone that the payment they will receive, for instance in 2001, will be at least 90% of what they received in 2000. In the following year they will be assured of receiving 80% of the payment received in 2000. In the third year, they will be assured of 50% of the 2000 payment. This gives them time to plan ahead, take account of the new basis of assistance and manage any longer term change in their entitlement. It cushions the effect of the change.

Mr McHugh:

A Cheann Comhairle. Can the Minister make a statement about the likelihood that farmers in the Silent Valley, who would have been in a position to gain from this safety net and from this funding, will now lose out, because the two Departments - the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and the Department for Regional Development - failed to consult each other? They are both to blame for the situation.

Mr Speaker:

Members are being remarkably creative and imaginative in the connections that they perceive between the supplementaries that they are asking and the original questions. Those connections seem a bit oblique to me. I shall leave it to the Minister to judge whether she is in a position to answer.

Ms Rodgers:

That is not on my agenda, but I have no problem in answering, if that is OK. The problems of sheep farmers in the Silent Valley are a very long way from the rural development regulations. It would have been more productive, particularly for the farmers, if there had been advance consultation between my Department and the Department for Regional Development. I was not consulted, and I do not want to comment any further on it today, except to say that consultation between Departments is extremely important, particularly when a decision of one Department impinges on another. In this case it impinges on the welfare of the farmers, who are going through an extremely critical time. It would have been better had there been consultation. There is consultation at this stage, but unfortunately it is a little bit late.

Area-Based
Strategy Action Group Schemes

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3.

Mr Byrne

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what plans she has to continue the area-based strategy action group (ABSAG) schemes which have existed throughout Northern Ireland in recent years.

(AQO 93/00)

Ms Rodgers:

Area-based strategies were a time-bound component of the 1994-99 rural development programme. They come to an end when spending under that programme stops in 2001. The 2000-06 rural development programme is currently being finalised. It is my intention to continue to provide scope for area-based action, but delivery mechanisms will depend on how partnerships evolve among key players at local level. I want to ensure that the work done under the current area-based strategies is built on, and I hope that through encouraging even stronger local partnerships the strategic delivery of rural development support will be further enhanced in the next round.

Mr Byrne:

The ABSAG areas designated in Northern Ireland have been an outstanding success, particularly for rural communities. Will the Minister tell us whether her Department has any plans to designate other rural areas that could benefit from this type of development? I hope that in the next round, we can have social and economic development in parts of Northern Ireland that did not benefit from ABSAG in the past.

Ms Rodgers:

The ABSAG concept was a new approach. The concept of area-based strategies has been adopted by other Departments and by other programmes. In a sense, it has now become a crowded market place. It is my intention that in the next round there should be room for local action groups. I hope to build on what has been achieved with the area-based strategies, and I look forward to new partnerships emerging. All new projects and partnerships will be looked at and encouraged. I hope to see many new areas and many new types of partnerships coming into being. I call on all those who could be involved in such partnerships - local councils and others - to look at it, because what I want to do is to develop, improve and build on what has been a very successful area-based strategy.

Mr Hussey:

The Minister will be aware of the good work being done in ABSAG areas. However, occasionally projects come to light which may not be sustainable. Unfortunately this does occur now and again, perhaps more so in the community sector. Can the Minister assure us that future developments within ABSAG will ensure that the sustainability of any project is a paramount consideration prior to its acceptance?

2.45 pm

Ms Rodgers:

Sustainability will be an important part of any project we bring forward. The Member will appreciate that in addressing the issue of rural development, we are dealing with disadvantaged areas, and we are enabling communities to bring forward projects. There has always been an element of risk in that. My Department has been very brave in taking risks, ones that entrepreneurs would never dream of entering into. Having said that, I accept that the rural development programme is about social and economic improvement of disadvantaged rural areas. We must bear those two things in mind. Sustainability will be a very important part of the programme. It will not improve rural communities economically or socially if the programmes are not sustainable in the long run. The money will not last for ever. It is an important aspect, and we will consider how to ensure that any programmes we have are sustainable in the long term.

Beef: EU Labelling

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4.

Mr Bradley

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what proposals she has to implement the forthcoming European Union regulations which stipulate that all European Union produced beef sold in supermarkets or butcher outlets must be labelled with the country of the animals birth and its country of fattening.

(AQO 76/00)

Ms Rodgers:

The new EU rules on beef labelling came into operation on 1 September 2000. The original proposal to show the category of animal was of particular concern to the local industry. I am pleased to record that, following lobbying by myself, the industry and the local MEPs, the proposal was deleted. Legislation to provide for enforcement of the EU rules in Northern Ireland is currently being drafted with a view to it coming into effect by the beginning of 2001. Guidance on the effect and operation of the new rules is being prepared and will be issued to the industry. EU rules do not require labels to show the country of birth and fattening until 1 January 2002.

Mr Bradley:

If the ban on beef exports is relaxed will our beef products be clearly labelled as products of Ireland/Northern Ireland?

Ms Rodgers:

Yes. All beef and beef products produced in the European Union must comply with EU rules on beef labelling. These will be implemented fully in Northern Ireland. However, in our proposals for a relaxation of the export ban, we have proposed that it contains a provision that all Northern Ireland produce for export will carry an additional mark of export eligibility. The format of the additional mark has yet to be agreed with the European Commission. Its main purpose, however, will be to identify to consumers throughout the EU and third countries the Northern Ireland origin of the product. Of course, the question of normal commercial labelling is entirely a matter for the companies. They can indicate, if they wish, that the product is of Irish origin.

Mr Armstrong:

Given that these rules apply to beef produced in the European Union, what action does the Minister intend to take to ensure that beef produced outside the EU and imported into Northern Ireland meets the high standards in production and labelling? Also, what proposals has she to help to offset the cost to the producer of implementing these regulations?

Ms Rodgers:

The cost to the producer will not be offset. However, had the initial proposals gone through - the proposals that we managed to change - the cost would have been 5p to 8p per kilogram. As a result of the changes that we achieved, the cost will be much less.

Modulation:
Strategic Spending Analysis

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5.

Mr Ford

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to confirm that if she is successful in obtaining more funds from the current strategic spending analysis this will enable her to spend all the proceeds from modulation on accompanying measures.

(AQO 84/00)

Ms Rodgers:

Under the provisions of the relevant EU legislation it is clearly stipulated that funds arising from the application of modulation can be spent only on the so-called accompanying measures arising from the rural development regulation. Therefore I can confirm that, regardless of the outcome of the spending review, all proceeds arising from modulation in Northern Ireland will be spent on such measures.

Mr Ford:

Clearly, the Minister had some welcome news earlier this afternoon on the rural development measure. The Minister and I have tangled before on the application of modulated money. Can she confirm that the modulated funds will be spent purely for the benefit of farmers under agri-environment schemes and not be taken again by her Department to fund shortfall in other budget areas?

Ms Rodgers:

The Member asked me that question in the past in relation to what I had done. He is now asking me about what I will do in the future. It is a very dangerous thing for a politician to make commitments about what will or will not happen. In relation to the modulation money, the pound-for-pound match funding that accompanies the introduction of modulation leads to a significant increase in the money accruing to Northern Ireland agriculture. It opens up the possibility of introducing additional measures under the rural development regulation. We must spend the modulation money on the four measures that are laid down, and we can then extend that, with the match funding, to the other accompanying measures.

Mr ONeill:

Can the Minister please outline her priorities for the spending review?

Ms Rodgers:

The Department faces pressures across a number of areas, but I am particularly keen to be in a position to respond to the ideas emerging from the vision steering group. The major concern of the group is that there should be some mechanism for "rural proofing" all Government policies. That will not necessarily have immediate public expenditure implications, but some of its other ideas - for instance, in respect of information and communication technology, education, research and environmental issues - will require additional public expenditure or re-prioritisation.

Mr Speaker:

Sometimes there may be an assumption by Members, when they see a series of questions from the same party as the Minister, that it has all been very well set up in advance. It is clear that there is greater integrity in the House than that.

Rural Development Regulation Plan

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6.

Ms Lewsley

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development how the farming community will benefit from the new rural development regulation plan.

(AQO 95/00)

Ms Rodgers:

The rural development regulation plan for Northern Ireland will not only provide significant opportunities for farmers under its agri-environment and forestry programmes between now and 2006, but will also secure substantial additional funding in support of producers in hill areas. The plan will be worth a total of £266 million to Northern Ireland farmers between 2000 and 2006. Of this total, £163 million will be directed toward the new LFA support scheme, £88 million towards agri-environment measures, and £15 million towards forestry. The provision for the LFA scheme in particular marks a significant achievement, in that it represents an uplift of 50%, compared with my original proposal submitted to the EU Commission in February. The fact that we were able to secure almost £32 million of additional funding from the Treasury in recent months is particularly welcome. It allows farmers to plan their business in the knowledge that funding for the LFA support scheme has been put on a more assured footing.

Ms Lewsley:

Can the Minister advise Members of the expected uptake for the agri-environmental scheme?

Ms Rodgers:

The environmentally sensitive areas scheme has 4,500 participant farmers, with some 145,000 hectares under agreement. It is considered to be very close to its optimum level of uptake. However, it is anticipated in the rural development regulation plan submitted to Brussels that the organic farming scheme will grow from the present level of 20 farmers with 1,000 hectares under agreement to 1,000 farmers with 30,000 hectares, and the countryside management scheme, which will have its first entrants accepted later this year, will have 4,000 participant farmers with 150,000 hectares under agreement.

Mr McHugh:

Go raibh maith agat. Does the Minister agree that a large part, if not all, of the money from modulation, which will be used in different ways, came originally from farmers' payments? When farmers take part in agri-environment schemes, will the budget be in place and will money be paid out on time to those involved?

Ms Rodgers:

The money that is going to agri- environment schemes is not being taken out of the pockets of farmers. This question arises quite often. Agri-environment schemes are taken up by the farming community, not by people outside that community, and are an alternative way of getting income at a time when farmers are going through difficulties. I do not accept that the money is coming out of the farmers' pockets; for the most part, it is going back, albeit by a different route, into their pockets. My Department will endeavour to ensure that payments are made as soon as possible after the completion of all the paperwork that is, unfortunately, still necessary to keep everything in order.

Mr Ford:

The Minister quoted a significant figure for a projected increase in the organic aid scheme and a large figure for participation in the countryside management scheme in her response. Does she have complete confidence that her Department has enough funds to ensure that grants made under those schemes are fully paid?

Ms Rodgers:

The Member will appreciate that funding is always a difficult issue. I can never guarantee that I will always get for my Department everything that I ask for. I will guarantee that there will be no want of trying, and I shall ensure that as much money as possible is made available for my Department in the comprehensive spending review. I can assure the Member that my bids are in and that I will be fighting very hard for them, because I recognise the need to support farmers in every way.

Beef Exports Ban

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7.

Mr Poots

asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development when a decision for the removal of the ban on beef exports will be made.

(AQO 91/00)

Ms Rodgers:

It is difficult to be definitive on the timescale. I have been working hard with Secretary of State Nick Brown and the other UK agriculture Ministers, with Joe Walsh in Dublin and with Commissioner Byrne in Brussels to keep this process moving. Those efforts allowed me to get the European Commission's agreement to our consultation document, which was issued at the end of July 2000. The consultation period finishes at the end of this week and, based on the responses, I and the other UK agriculture Ministers will have to decide whether we should submit a formal case to the European Commission. I am hopeful that that will be the case, although I recognise the difficulties. We will then have to convince the European Commission that our proposal will work and follow that up by convincing the other 14 Member States. This will require scrutiny on a number of occasions at the Standing Veterinary Committee and will also require an inspection by the Commission, to verify that our controls are sufficient and in place. This will be far from easy and will take some time.

I would assure the Member that this is one of my top priorities, and I will keep the pressure on my Ministerial Colleagues and the Commissioner to move things on as quickly as possible. I am optimistic that we can get the ban relaxed, despite some difficult hurdles ahead. Realistically, it could be spring before exports start again.

Mr Poots:

It is interesting that the prospect of getting the beef ban lifted is being pushed back to the springtime. Most farmers believed that the ban would have been lifted by this autumn. They believed that all the necessary paperwork would have been carried out and felt that they had delivered on their side of the bargain. It is now the Department's job to deliver. There will be a lot of concern expressed that it is going to be pushed back to March 2001, and when we get to March 2001 it will be pushed back to October 2001. The ban has existed for four and a half years; it is time it was gone, and it is the Minister's responsibility to get rid of it.

Ms Rodgers:

Perhaps the Member does not quite understand how Europe works. It is not just a matter of paperwork. As I have explained on a number of occasions, it was an extremely complex negotiation. In the first place, there had to be negotiations with the Commission on the proposals. The Member will also recognise that there had to be discussions with the other UK Ministers and consultation with the wider public and the consumers. It is not a straightforward issue of just getting the beef ban lifted. Incidentally, I have not been working on this for four and a half years; I have been working on this since last December with a three-and-a-half-month gap in the middle. It would have been much more helpful to the farming community if I could have continued my work right through without interruption.

3.00 pm

Mr Speaker:

Other Members want to put supplementary questions, but we have come to the end of the time for questions to the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development.

Mr B Hutchinson:

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I refer to Standing Order 19(7). At least two Members put new questions as supplementaries, and you asked the Minister if she wanted to answer them. My concern is that Ministers will take different views and, depending on the questions, will refuse to answer. Those two Members got to ask questions which they did not bother to put down in writing.

Mr Speaker:

Members have the right to ask supplementary questions, and supplementaries ought to be related to the original question. As the Member is aware, I commented on the ingenuity and creativity of the Members. There is a degree of technicality about some of the questions in a number of the departmental areas, particularly, but not exclusively, in agriculture. I usually give Members the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they know a little more than I do on the technical questions. Sometimes, it is clear that they simply know a little bit more than I do about evading the Standing Orders. On this occasion, I compliment the Member for not only raising a point of order that was a point of order, but also his courtesy to the House in advising under which Standing Order he was raising it. I will regard myself as duly reproved and will try to provide the best guidance I can to the House on such supplementary questions as come forward.

With that self-reproof, perhaps we can move to questions to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

Culture, Arts And Leisure

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Mr Speaker:

Question No 1, in the name of Mr Close, falls. Mr Close has advised us that he is ill and unable to be here today.

Queen's Parade Development
(Bangor)

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2.

Mrs E Bell

asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure if he is aware of any proposals to provide a library for Bangor within the Queen's Parade development plans.

(AQO 79/00)

Mr McGimpsey:

I know that the library in Bangor is inadequate, and I understand that the South Eastern Education and Library Board is discussing the possibility of a new library with the developers of the Queen's Parade complex. As yet, no proposal has been put to the Department.

Mrs Bell:

I am aware that that is the situation. I was asking simply so that I know that it will be a priority. Does the Minister agree that consideration of all library provision is vital, given that, when they were under the control of the education and library board, libraries were not developed as they should have been. I hope that that will not continue.

Mr McGimpsey:

I agree with the thrust of the question. The Library Service has been seriously underfunded over the past 25 years of direct rule. One of the reasons for detaching it from the Department of Education was to allow it to stand on its own feet and fight its own corner in terms of chasing funding, and it would not be in competition with other Departments or other sectors in education. This is why it is within the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

In terms of provision for new libraries, as the Member is aware, capital developments depend on capital resources. I have inherited a capital baseline which is not sufficient to anounce any further capital developments at the moment. My Department is actively bidding for resources in the new spending round, and I hope to be successful. I certainly will be making every effort. As my Colleague Ms Rodgers said in relation to her Department, this is an area which has been underfunded. This is a tremendously valuable area where there is enormous potential to develop our society on a number of levels. I cannot make any announcements until the Executive and the Assembly Committee award extra funding.

Mr Dallat:

Does the Minister agree that it is essential to pour resources into the Library Service to encourage greater use of its facilities, given the evidence of serious difficulties with literacy and numeracy, as various Committees have discovered in recent times?

Mr Speaker:

I must ask Members to try to restrain themselves. There is a difference between the issue of a single library in one constituency and the general subject of adult literacy. I am not questioning the Minister's literacy, but this issue is outside his responsibility. Members must stick to the question at hand.

Bilingual Signs

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3.

Mr Fee

asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what advice he has given to other Departments in respect of the provision of bilingual signs in public places.

(AQO 106/00)

Mr McGimpsey:

All Departments are aware of the overarching commitment under the Belfast Agreement to promote understanding, tolerance and respect for linguistic diversity. They are also aware of the specific commitments contained in the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages.

Mr Fee:

Does the Minister agree that a single coherent policy on multilingual issues would be extremely useful, given that it is such an important and potentially divisive matter? Does he further agree that in my constituency there are glaring examples of anomalies caused by the lack of a coherent policy? The South Armagh tourism initiative, which is funded by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, Newry and Mourne District Council, the Tourist Board and the International Fund for Ireland, operates a signage programme. Where appropriate, it provides for signs bearing the names of streets, townlands, buildings, tourist facilities and houses to be mounted in English, Irish or both languages. In spite of this, the Roads Service of the Department for Regional Development will not mount bilingual traffic or direction signs. This is extraordinarily difficult to understand, bearing in mind that there are direction signs to Ardmore RUC station in Newry.

Mr Speaker:

I have listened intently to the Member's remarks, and I have two problems with them. First, I failed to hear the question. Secondly, he has referred to a cross-cutting issue, which is not the responsibility of the Minister's Department. The Minister may well have an opinion on the issue, but it is a cross-cutting subject which refers to a number of different Departments. It should therefore be addressed by means of a question to the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.

Mr Fee:

Surely the Minister will accept that his Department has the lead in cultural matters of this nature. Would he care to -

Mr Speaker:

Order. The Minister may well wish to enlarge his empire in that way, but I fear that some of his Assembly and party colleagues would like to retain control in the Office of the First Minister and - particularly - the Deputy First Minister. This is outside the Minister's responsibilities, and we must proceed.

Mr McElduff:

A Cheann Comhairle. An bhfuil a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil rún ag an Roinn Talmhaíochta agus Forbartha Tuaithe comharthaí dhátheangacha ar an tSrath Bhán a thabhairt anuas in éadan thoil phobal an cheantair sin?

Is the Minister aware that the western division of the Roads Service is currently threatening legal proceedings against Fountain Street community association in Strabane for erecting Irish language direction signs?

Mr Speaker:

Order. I am failing to make myself clear, even in English. The Member is raising a question in respect of the Department for Regional Development. That is not within this Minister's area of reponsibility. I am being reasonably generous to Members in permitting them to speak at length. The Member must put a question to the Minister on his ministerial responsibilities only. He must not ask him for a view on another Minister's responsibilities.

Mr McElduff:

With respect, I believe that question 3, posed by Mr Fee, is inviting the Minister to advise other Ministers on Irish language commitments, specifically those which fall under his brief. Will the Minister advise another Minister - in this case the Minister of the Department for Regional Development - to honour commitments made in the Good Friday Agreement to the Irish language, particularly with respect to the Fountain Street community association in Strabane?

Mr McGimpsey:

The Member is aware that the United Kingdom has signed up to the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. In the Executive Committee last week, we enabled the First and Deputy First Ministers to write to the Foreign Secretary on that. The European Charter will therefore be implemented.

Part II of the charter deals with languages for the kingdom as a whole - Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and Scots, as well as Irish and Ulster-Scots for our purposes. Part III identifies languages for specific action, recognises Irish as well as Scottish Gaelic and Welsh, and that will have consequences. My Department will certainly determine what advice is required to help other Departments determine what action will need to be taken as a consequence of the charter.

Under part III of the charter we are required to specify 35 provisions which are already under way. We have been able to specify 36; for 30 we have devolved responsibility, and six are excepted or reserved matters. The charter has made no change to the position on street signs. Departments are at liberty to use bilingual or trilingual versions of their name as they wish. The only exception is street names, which come under the jurisdiction of local councils as provided by the Local Government (Northern Ireland) Order 1995.

My Department is chairing an interdepartmental committee representing all the other Departments, and we are looking at what steps need to be taken. There will be consultation with the various Departments on factors such as appropriateness, demand, desire and resources, and the result of that consultation will be available early next year.

A Member:

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker:

I am not able to take a point of order during Question Time, but I will happily take it at the end. Since the House resumed, I have been advised that Mr Leslie is unwell and not able to be here to put his question. We therefore move to the next question.

Lesser-Used Languages

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5.

Ms Lewsley

asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail what funding is available for training for lesser-used languages, and if he will make a statement.

(AQO 96/00)

Mr McGimpsey:

Money is available to the language body to promote projects relating to Irish and Ulster-Scots. These projects could include training. Groups who speak a lesser-used language may apply to various Departments for funding from mainstream programmes which may relate to training. Departmental funds are also available for staff training programmes which, where appropriate, could include language training.

Ms Lewsley:

My question is not about Irish or Ulster-Scots. How much of that funding is available for training and development opportunities for sign language in Northern Ireland, considering that we only have four trained signers and there is a great need for more?

Mr McGimpsey:

I am not aware of the exact amounts of money. All I can do is refer the Member to my answer that departmental funds are available for staff training programmes, which can include language training. They can also include training in the use of sign language. Departments are free to spend that money as they see fit.

3.15 pm

Mr McMenamin:

The year 2001 has been designated as the year of languages. This would be an ideal opportunity to enhance and promote the Irish language in our schools and colleges throughout Northern Ireland. Does the Minister agree that we need to introduce each other's culture into our primary schools in order that our children can learn about each other's cultures?

Mr McGimpsey:

I am aware that 2001 has been designated as the year of language in Europe, and I agree that cultural diversity should be seen as a strength of our society and not as a weakness. I also agree with the spirit of his question and remarks. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is looking at ways to address and promote tolerance and respect for the diversity of culture in Northern Ireland.

Mr Shannon:

Will the Minister confirm that the Ulster-Scots language will be given equality and parity of funding with the Irish language, as regards training in the use of lesser-used languages?

Mr McGimpsey:

I have addressed this matter for Mr Shannon before and am happy to do so again. The Boord o Ulster Scotch will receive indicative funding for the coming year of £1·3 million. This compares with £667,000 for the previous year, which, in itself, represents a five fold increase on the year before - £118,000. It is a matter for the Board of Ulster-Scots and a matter for the language body to determine staff training in Ulster-Scots. Ulster-Scots and the Board of Ulster-Scots are vibrant and when this organisation and board identifies a need, it looks to address that need and to find the funding.

Mr Savage:

During questions to the last Minister I waited patiently, but without avail, to ask my question. May I ask question No 4 on behalf of my Colleague Mr Leslie?

Mr Speaker:

I am afraid not. It is not possible to ask questions on behalf of other Members, and that is very clear.

National Gallery for Art

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6.

Mr Ford

asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what plans he has to create a national gallery for art in Northern Ireland.

(AQO 77/00)

Mr McGimpsey:

My Department is working closely with the management of the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland to identify the support that will be required to realise the plans contained in the vision statement 'Opening Horizons'. These plans include the creation of a museum of the creative arts that will serve as a national gallery for Northern Ireland.

Mr Ford:

I had hoped for a more detailed answer or, perhaps, news of co-operation between his Department and Belfast City Council. He will surely agree that the visual arts are badly served at present with one or two paintings stuck in odd corners of the Ulster Museum in an inappropriate way. Is it not time that we had something more specific, with times and details attached, in a statement from him on this issue?

Mr McGimpsey:

This is a need and a gap that the museum and the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland have recognised in 'Opening Horizons'. Again, this is something they are hoping to move forward and address. A number of things will flow from that, not the least of which is the revenue consequences of provision.

I agree that the Ulster Museum does not begin to have the space to display the quality of paintings they have in their vaults. About 90% of their paintings never see the light of day despite the fact that the exhibitions might migrate. I am sure that the Member is aware that paintings by Turner, Gainsborough, Reynolds, John Lavery, William Connor, et cetera, are buried in the cellars of the Ulster Museum. Neither do we have the facilities to take travelling exhibitions. Currently, paintings by Monet and Rembrandt are migrating round Europe. We could pick those up if only we had the proper premises.

We are well aware of the requirement for facilities and resources and are looking at the issue, but there are revenue consequences and other important areas we have to look at, such as location. It is part of the plans and vision. I cannot give the Member a specific time frame until we move on to the next stage.

Mr Gallagher:

This is another initiative in the Minister's Department with the potential for job creation. In Enniskillen some weeks ago the Minister announced 70 jobs from the siting of the inland waterways body. What does the Minister have to say about the creation of jobs in respect of the national gallery? What does he have to say about the creation of 70 jobs in Enniskillen, given the depressing news from the town last week?

Mr McGimpsey:

I sympathise with Mr Gallagher. My Colleague Sir Reg Empey is very much aware of the job losses in Enniskillen, and he is working extremely hard to address the problem. The fact that the headquarters of the inland waterways body will be sited in Enniskillen will create 70 jobs. I do not know what job opportunities will arise from the siting of national gallery. Its location is still to be determined, and, as I said to Mr Ford, we shall address the question in due course.

Mr Speaker:

I must advise Members that speculation that there might at some point be a national gallery is not to be taken as a question on the development of the Fermanagh economy.

Mrs Carson:

I would not dream of doing anything like that for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. If the Minister were looking for a place to hang the nice pictures lying in the vaults of the Ulster Museum, would he not consider using the facilities in this beautiful Building? We have some very glaring, empty spots, and we could use some of the facilities in this House. Would he facilitate that?

Mr Speaker:

I must advise the Member that that issue is properly a matter for the Assembly Commission and not for the Minister. He is, of course, quite at liberty to express a view, but the Member might do well to keep her powder dry, since the next set of questions is to the Assembly Commission.

Mr McGimpsey:

If it is the will of the House and the Assembly Commission, I shall certainly do what I can to support that wish. I very much agree that there is hanging space available in the Building, and if these works of art are lying in vaults, it seems a shame that they should not be on display here or, indeed, in a number of other buildings in Northern Ireland such as museums and libraries. We are looking at the issue.

Mr Speaker:

I should perhaps point out that the hanging space to which the Minister referred was for pictures, not for Members.

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