COMMITTEE FOR JUSTICE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
TUESDAY, 1 FEBRUARY 2011
ROOM 21, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present:
Lord Morrow MLA (Chairman)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Alban Maginness MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA

In Attendance:
Mrs Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Joe Westland (Clerical Supervisor)

Apologies:
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA

The meeting commenced at 3.05 p.m. in public session.

1. Apologies

Apologies are detailed above.

2. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 25 January 2011

Agreed: The Committee approved the draft minutes of the meeting held on 25 January 2011.

3. Matters Arising

The Committee considered correspondence from the Minister of Justice clarifying issues raised by Members on the budget of the NI Legal Services Commission and the budget for criminal legal aid.

The Committee noted the request by the Minister for the views of the Committee on his proposals for changes to remuneration for defence counsel in relation to Crown Court cases.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to take evidence from the Law Society and the Bar Council on the proposals at the meeting scheduled for 10 February 2011.

4. Briefing by the Chief Inspector on the CJI Report on NI Prison Service Corporate Governance Arrangements

Dr Michael Maguire, Chief Inspector, Brendan McGuigan, Deputy Chief Inspector, and Dr Ian Cameron and Mr Stephen Dolan of the Inspection Team joined the meeting at 3.13 p.m.

3.15 p.m. Mr Givan joined the meeting.

Dr Maguire briefed the Committee on the findings of the CJI Report on NI Prison Service Corporate Governance Arrangements .

The meeting was suspended at 3.35 p.m. to enable members to vote in the plenary session.

The meeting resumed at 3.53 p.m.

Present:
Lord Morrow MLA (Chairman)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Alban Maginness MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA

In Attendance:
Mrs Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Joe Westland (Clerical Supervisor)

4. Briefing by the Chief Inspector on the CJI Report on NI Prison Service Corporate Governance Arrangements (cont’d)

A question and answer session followed during which issues including; the possible timescale for any reform of the Prison Service; the prevalence of custom and practice local agreements and the cost to the Service; the cost per prisoner place; the definition of a “progressive” Prison Service; issues relating to accountability; and how to manage the change process and achieve change.

4.10 p.m. Mr Buchanan joined the meeting.

4.10 p.m. Mr McDevitt joined the meeting.

The Chairman thanked the Dr Maguire and his officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.

The evidence session was recorded by Hansard.

The Committee noted that a briefing by the Prison Review Team on its interim report was scheduled for later in February 2011.

5. Formal Clause by Clause Consideration of Part 4 and Schedule 3 of the Justice Bill – Sports Provisions

The Committee continued its clause-by-clause consideration of the Justice Bill covering Clauses 36 to 55 and Schedule 3 relating to Sport.

Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Tom Haire, Justice Bill Manager and David Mercer, Criminal Law Branch joined the meeting at 4.30 p.m. to provide further information and clarification if necessary.

Clause 36 – Regulated Matches

The Committee considered a proposed amendment to clause 36 from the Department of Justice to reduce the time period around which powers would be applied to regulated matches from “two hours before/one hour after” to “one hour before/thirty matches ”.

“Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 36 as amended as follows:

Clause 36, page 25, line 26, leave out paragraph (c)

Clause 36, page 25, line 32, leave out from ‘two hours before’ to end of line and insert ‘one hour before the start of the match or (if earlier) one hour’

Clause 36, page 25, line 34, leave out ‘one hour’ and insert ‘30 minutes’

Clause 36, page 25, line 38, leave out ‘two hours’ and insert ‘one hour’

Clause 36, page 25, line 39, leave out ‘one hour’ and insert ’30 minutes’

Clause 37 – Throwing of missiles

The Committee considered a proposed amendment to Clause 37 from the Department of Justice. The proposed amendment aimed to meet the Committee’s concerns about the lack of a definition of a “missile” by focusing more on those items likely to cause injury.

Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 37 as amended as follows:

Clause 37, page 26, line 8, leave out ‘anything’ and insert ‘any object to which this subsection applies’

Clause 37, page 26, line 13, at end insert:

‘(1A) Subsection (1) applies to any object which, if thrown as mentioned in that subsection, would be likely to cause injury to any person who may be struck by the object.’

Clause 38 – Chanting

The Committee considered a proposed amendment to Clause 38 from the Department of Justice to include sectarianism as had been requested by Committee Members.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 38 as amended as follows:

Clause 38, page 26, line 22, leave out ‘an’ and insert ‘a sectarian or’

Clause 38, page 26, line 25, leave out ‘religious belief’

Clause 38, page 26, line 26, at end insert:

‘(3A) For the purposes of this section chanting is of a sectarian nature if it consists of or includes matter which is threatening, abusive or insulting to a person by reason of that person’s religious belief or political opinion or against an individual as a member of such a group.’

Clause 39 – Going onto the playing area

The Committee discussed a proposal to amend the clause to deal with an incursion to cause injury rather than just exuberance. The Department officials indicated that the intention of the clause was to avoid people rushing onto the pitch which in itself creates a danger of injury. They confirmed that the clause does provide for authorised pitch invasions.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 39 put and agreed to”.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3

AYES	ABSTAIN
Lord Browne	Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Thomas Buchanan	Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr Paul Givan	Mr John O'Dowd
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt

Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.

Clause 40 – Possession of fireworks, flares etc

The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding the inclusion of “laser pens” within clause 40. The Committee noted that there were difficulties with including laser pens in the legislation but that the Minister of Justice would ensure that the importance of controlling such devices at sports grounds is recognised and will take the issue forward with relevant departments.

The Committee considered Clause 40 as drafted.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 40 put and agreed to”.

Clause 41 – Being drunk at a regulated match

The Committee discussed clause 41. While the Committee did not disagree with the objective of the clause it believed it was unnecessary as there was already adequate legislation in place and the provision was likely to be unenforceable.

“Question: That the Committee is not content with Clause 41 put and agreed to”.

Clause 42 – Possession of drink containers, etc.

The Committee discussed Clause 42 and expressed strong reservations regarding whether it was necessary. The Committee was of the view that it would be difficult to enforce and impractical to work.

“Question: That the Committee is not content with Clause 42 put and agreed to”.

Clause 43 – Possession of alcohol

The Committee considered a proposal from the Department of Justice to amend the commencement of this clause to be subject to affirmative procedure and require full Assembly consent (this amendment would be achieved by changing the commencement provisions in clause 103).

The Committee was of the view that this clause created unnecessary criminal offences and self-regulation by the relevant bodies was preferable.

“Question: That the Committee is not content with Clause 43 put and agreed to”.

Clauses 44 – Offences in connection with alcohol on vehicles

The Committee considered a proposal from the Department of Justice to amend clause 44 to remove the offence of being drunk on specified vehicles entirely and remove the restrictions on alcohol on vehicles travelling away from a game.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 44 as amended as follows”.

Clause 44, page 28, line 32, leave out ‘or from’

Clause 44, page 29, line 6, leave out subsection (5)

Clause 44, page 29, line 15, leave out paragraph (c)

The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3

AYES	ABSTAIN
Lord Browne	Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Thomas Buchanan	Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr Paul Givan	Mr John O'Dowd
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt

Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.

Clause 45 – Sale of tickets by unauthorised persons

The Committee considered a proposal from the Department of Justice to withdraw clause 45 in favour of self regulation by the sports bodies and supported this approach.

“Question: That the Committee is not content with Clause 45 put and agreed to”.

Clauses 46 – 48 Banning Orders

The Committee considered Clauses 46 to 48 as drafted.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 46 to 48 put and agreed to”.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3

AYES	ABSTAIN
Lord Browne	Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Thomas Buchanan	Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr Paul Givan	Mr John O'Dowd
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt

Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.

Clauses 49 – Banning orders: “violence” and “disorder”

The Committee considered a proposed amendment to Clause 49 from the Department of Justice to include sectarianism more explicitly in the provisions.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 49 as amended as follows:

Clause 49, page 33, line 6 after ‘up’ insert ‘sectarian hatred or’

Clause 49, page 33, line 8, leave out ‘religious belief’

Clause 49, page 33, line 14, leave out subsection (3) and insert:

‘(3) For the purposes of this section sectarian hatred is hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or political opinion.’

The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3

AYES	ABSTAIN
Lord Browne	Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Thomas Buchanan	Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr Paul Givan	Mr John O'Dowd
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt

Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote

Clauses 50 to 55 Banning Orders

The Committee considered Clauses 50 to 55 as drafted.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Clauses 50 to 55 put and agreed to”.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3

AYES	ABSTAIN
Lord Browne	Mr Raymond McCartney
Mr Thomas Buchanan	Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr Paul Givan	Mr John O'Dowd
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt

Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.

Schedule 3 – Regulated Matches

The Committee considered an amendment, proposed by the Department of Justice, to Schedule 3 paragraph 8 to remove sports grounds at which there is a stand requiring a safety certificate thereby ensuring that the provisions only apply to matches at designated grounds.

The Committee considered Schedule 3 as amended.

“Question: That the Committee is content with Schedule 3 as amended as follows:

Schedule 3, page 81, line 7, leave out from ‘or’ to end of line 9

Schedule 3, page 81, line 19, leave out from ‘or’ to end of line 21

The Chairman thanked David Mercer and he left the meeting.

The clause-by-clause consideration was recorded by Hansard

6. Justice Bill: Continuation of Informal Clause by Clause Consideration of the Justice Bill - Parts 6 and 7

Janice Smiley, Head of Criminal Policy Unit and Paul Black, Criminal Policy Unit joined the meeting at 5.40 p.m. to provide further information and clarification, if necessary, on Part 6 of the Justice Bill.

The Committee reviewed the evidence provided on Part 6 – Alternatives to Prosecution and sought further information and clarification from the departmental officials on clauses 64, 65, 67, 73, 74, 76, 77, 80, 82 and 83.

The Departmental officials advised the Committee that the Minister of Justice intended to propose an amendment to the Bill in relation to clause 82 as requested by the Committee so that the Code of Practice would be subject to affirmative resolution. The draft amendments would be provided to the Committee for consideration as soon as possible.

5.56 p.m. Paul Givan left the meeting.

The Chairman thanked Janice Smiley and Paul Black and they left the meeting.

Robert Crawford, Head of Public Legal Services and John Halliday, Criminal Legal Aid Policy Advisor joined the meeting at 6.02 p.m. to provide further information and clarification, if necessary on Part 7 - Legal Aid etc - of the Justice Bill.

The Committee reviewed the evidence provided on Part 7 - Legal Aid etc and sought further information and clarification from the departmental officials on clauses 85, 89 and 90.

The Committee considered correspondence from the Minister of Justice regarding the Committee’s recommendation that the legal aid regulations in Clauses 85 and 89 should be subject to draft affirmative procedure. The Minister outlined concerns regarding the proposal and indicated that he was not minded to make such an amendment.

Agreed: The Committee agreed request that draft amendments be prepared so that the legal aid regulations in clauses 85(2) and 89(2) would be subject to draft affirmative procedure.

The Chairman thanked the officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.

The evidence session was recorded by Hansard.

7. Correspondence

(i) The Committee noted correspondence from the Minister of Justice regarding the recent intelligence led searches in Maghaberry Prison.

(ii) The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding the Autism Bill.

Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the correspondence to the Health Committee.

(iii) The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding a consultation on the Review of Community Sentences.

8. Any Other Business

None.

9. Date and Time of next meeting

The next meeting will be held on Thursday 3 February at 2.00 p.m. in the Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings.

6.23 p.m. The meeting was adjourned.

Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley MLA
Chairman, Committee for Justice
8 February 2011

27 January 11 / Menu