COMMITTEE FOR JUSTICE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
THURSDAY, 27 JANUARY 2011
SENATE CHAMBER, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Lord Morrow MLA (Chairman)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Lord Browne MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Alban Maginness MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
In Attendance:
Mrs Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Mrs Roisin Donnelly (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Joe Westland (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Kevin Marks (Clerical Officer)
The meeting commenced at 2.10 p.m. in public session.
1. Apologies
There were no apologies.
2. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 20 January 2011
Agreed: The Committee approved the draft minutes of the meeting held on 20 January 2011
3. Matters Arising
(i) The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Justice providing the main research paper on the Means Testing in Criminal Legal Aid which was relevant to the oral briefing at the previous meeting.
(ii) The Chairman advised the Committee that a draft response on the Department of Justice Budget 2011-2015 proposals was being tabled.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the meeting would adjourn for fifteen minutes after Agenda Item 4 to enable Members to consider the draft response. The matter would then be discussed.
4. Justice Bill - Clause by Clause Consideration Part 3 – Policing and Community Safety Partnerships and Schedules 1 and 2
The Committee continued its clause-by-clause consideration of the Justice Bill covering Clauses 20-35 and Schedules 1 and 2 relating to Policing and Community Safety Partnerships.
David Hughes, Head of Policing Policy and Strategy Division, Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Dan Mulholland, Policing Policy and Strategy Division and Nichola Creagh, Policing Policy & Strategy Division joined the meeting at 2.15 p.m.
Some members indicated that they were not a position to formally decide on clauses 20 – 35 and Schedules 1 and 2 as there was an issue in relation to the Belfast DPCSP which they wished to explore further.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to reach its informal view on the clauses.
2.23 p.m. Lord Browne joined the meeting.
2.24 p.m. Mr McDevitt joined the meeting.
Clause 20: Establishment of PCSPs and DPCSPs
The Committee indicated that it was content with clause 20 as drafted.
Lord Browne declared his interest as a member of Belfast City Council.
The Committee divided: Ayes 4; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Alban Maginness MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clause 21: Functions of PCSP
The Committee considered an amendment requested by Include Youth to 21 (1)(d) to insert
2.50 p.m. Mr Maginness left the meeting.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that clause 21 should be amended to “and fully considering” after “to make arrangements for obtaining”.
The Committee considered an amendment requested by Strabane, Derry and Limavady DPPs to 21 (1)(h) to replace “persons” with “organisations” but was of the view that the clause as drafted in relation to this issue was adequate.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clause 22: Functions of DPCSP
The Committee indicated that it was content with clause 22 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
ABSTAIN
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clause 23: Code of practice for PCSPs and DPCSPs
The Committee indicated that it was content with clause 23 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clauses 24 to 26 - Annual Reports
The Committee indicated that it was content with clauses 24 to 26 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clauses 27 to 29 - Other reports by PCSPs and DPCSPs
The Committee indicated that it was content with clauses 27 to 29 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clauses 30 to 32 – Policing Committee Reports
The Committee indicated that it was content with clauses 30 to 32 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clause 33: Other community policing arrangements
The Committee indicated that it was content with clause 33 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Clause 34: Duty on public bodies to consider community safety implications in exercising duties
The Committee discussed this clause in detail and the likely implications of the creation of a new public duty on public bodies. Issues covered included whether public bodies were ready and whether they fully understood the requirements and implications. The Committee also noted the options proposed by the Attorney General during his oral evidence to the Committee and considered a proposed amendment by the Department of Justice to address concerns regarding on the wide scope of the clause and the potential for legal action.
3.02 p.m. Mr Maginness rejoined the meeting.
3.28 p.m. Mr Maginness left the meeting.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to consider to this clause further at a future meeting.
3.32 p.m. Mr McNarry left the meeting.
Clause 35: Functions of joint committee and Policing Board
The Committee indicated that it was content with clause 35 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 4
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraphs 1 to 3 – Interpretation, Composition and Political Members
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraphs 1 to 3 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 4
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraph 4 - Independent members
The Committee considered a proposed amendment to paragraph 4 from the Department of Justice providing for the payment of expenses to all members of Policing and Community Safety Partnerships which aimed to give the councils the scope to pay expenses to all members who do not receive them from their own organisation.
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraph 4 as amended.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 4
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraphs 5 and 6 – Independent members
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraphs 5 and 6 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 4
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraph 7 - Representatives of designated organisations
The Committee discussed the advantages and disadvantages of designing certain organisations which would be represented on all PCSPs and which organisations should be included. The Committee considered a proposed amendment from the Department of Justice to enable the designation of certain organisations without this appearing on the face of the Bill.
The Committee also discussed the possibility of enabling the designation of certain organisations by way of a regulation.
3.42 p.m. Mr Mc Narry rejoined the meeting.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that an amendment should be drafted to provide for organisations to be designated so that they are represented on all PCSPs by way of a regulation.
4.00 p.m. Ms Ní Chuilín left the meeting .
Schedule 1 paragraph 8 - Removal of members
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraph 8 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
4.12 p.m. Ms Ní Chuilín rejoined the meeting .
Schedule 1 paragraph 9 – Disqualification
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraph 9 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraph 10 - Chair and vice-chair
The Committee discussed a proposal by Mr Givan for an amendment to ensure that the Chair of the PCSP will be an elected member.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that an amendment should be drafted as outlined.
Departmental officials undertook to provide a draft amendment for consideration.
Schedule 1 paragraph 11 - Procedure of PCSP
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraph 11 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraphs 12 and 13 - Policing committee: constitution and procedure
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraphs 12 and 13 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 paragraph 14 to 16 - Other committees, Indemnities and Insurance against accidents
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraphs 14 to 16 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
4.28 p.m. Mr McDevitt left the meeting.
Schedule 1 paragraph 17 - Finance
The Committee considered a proposed amendment by the Department to replace the word “may” with “shall” relating to the granting of finances to the Council for the funding of the PCSPs to ensure that the Department and the Policing Board’s commitment to funding the PCSPs is conveyed, and to include further detail on the actual mechanisms for funding PCSPs.
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraph 17 as amended.
The Committee divided: Ayes 2; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 1 Paragraphs 18 and 19 - Validity of proceedings, Disclosure of pecuniary interests, family connections, etc.
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraphs 18 and 19 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 2; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
4.35 p.m. Mr McDevitt rejoined the meeting.
Schedule 1 paragraphs 20 and 21 - Joint PCSPs and Belfast PCSP
The Committee indicated that it was content with paragraphs 20 and 21 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Schedule 2
The Committee indicated that the decisions made in relation to Schedule 1 should apply to Schedule 2.
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 0; Abstain 5
AYES
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
ABSTAIN
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
The Chairman thanked the officials and they left the meeting.
The clause-by-clause consideration was recorded by Hansard
4.40 p.m. The meeting was suspended.
5.14 p.m. The meeting resumed.
Present:
Lord Morrow MLA (Chairman)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Lord Browne MLA
Lord Empey MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
In Attendance:
Mrs Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Joe Westland (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Kevin Marks (Clerical Officer)
Matters Arising cont’d. - Draft response to the Department of Justice Budget 2011-2015
The Committee considered a draft response on the Department of Justice’s Draft Budget 2011-2015 proposals.
5.20 p.m. Ms Ní Chuilín rejoined the meeting.
Agreed: The Committee agreed the draft response with two additions.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to send the response to the Minister of Justice and the Committee for Finance and Personnel.
5. Justice Bill - Continuation of Clause by Clause consideration
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Tom Haire, Justice Bill Manager and Amanda Patterson, Head of Public Protection joined the meeting at 5.46p.m to provide further information and clarification, if necessary on Part 5 – Treatment of Offenders.
The Committee reviewed the evidence provided on Part 5 – Treatment of Offenders, and sought further information and clarification from the departmental officials on clauses 58, 59 and 63.
The Departmental officials briefed the Committee on a new clause that the Minister of Justice proposed to introduce at Consideration Stage and answered questions. The new clause related to improvements to sex offender notification requirements.
The Chairman thanked Amanda Patterson and she left the meeting.
Geraldine Fee Head of Criminal Policy and Legislation Division, NICTS and Billy Stevenson, Head of Organised Crime unit joined the meeting at 6.11 p.m. to provide further information and clarification, if necessary, on Part 8 - Miscellaneous, Part 9 – Supplementary Provisions and Schedules 6 and 7.
The Committee reviewed the evidence provided on Parts 8 and 9 and Schedules 6 and 7 and sought further information and clarification on clauses 96 and 97.
6.22 p.m. Mr Givan left the meeting.
6.28 p.m. Ms Ní Chuilínleft the meeting.
The Departmental officials briefed the Committee on a new clause that the Minister of Justice proposed to introduce at Consideration Stage and answered questions. The clause made provision to allow the Department to have access to and to allocate the proceeds of criminal assets currently remitted to the NI Consolidated Fund.
The clause-by-clause consideration was recorded by Hansard
The Committee considered the work schedule for its continued scrutiny of the Justice Bill.
6. Transfer of Functions (Tribunal Reform) Order (NI) 2010
The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice on the proposal to make a Transfer of Functions Order to allow the Department of Justice (DOJ) to assume statutory responsibility for the administration of tribunals following agreement between DOJ and the relevant departments on the functions and resources to be transferred.
Lord Empey declared an interest as having been involved in the discussions relation to this matter, when he was Minister for Employment and Learning.
The Committee noted that the Department of Justice had agreed the functions to transfer with respective ceding Departments and indicated that tribunals would only transfer were a transfer of appropriate funding is agreed.
Agreed:The Committee agreed that in light of the information provided by the Department of Justice, it was content with the proposal to make the Transfer of Functions (Tribunal Reform) Order and would write to the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister accordingly .
7. Statutory Rule – Police Service of Northern Ireland Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) (Amendment) Regulations 2010
The Committee considered Statutory Rule No 2010/421 – Police Service of Northern Ireland Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) (Amendment) Regulations 2010.
The Committee noted that the Examiner of Statutory Rules had no issues to raise with regard to the technical aspects of the Statutory Rule.
Agreed: The Committee for Justice considered Statutory Rule No 2010/421 – Police Service of Northern Ireland Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 and had no objection to the Rule.
8. Chairman’s Business
(i) The Chairman advised the Committee that the Attorney General had invited him and the Deputy Chairman to participate in an upcoming session of the Living Law programme, an education and enrichment programme for pupils from six different schools across Northern Ireland.
(ii) The Chairman advised the Committee that he had received a request for the publication of children wanted for questioning by the PSNI and the recent report by the Policing Board Human Rights Committee to be placed on the agenda.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Policing Board and to the PSNI requesting information and clarification of the findings of the report and the response of the findings before considering the matter further.
9. Correspondence
(i) The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice to the Committee for the Environment regarding the Planning Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to forward the correspondence to the Environment Committee.
(ii) The Committee considered correspondence from the Community Relations Council and the Rural Community Network providing the Committee with a report entitled Beyond Belfast Contested Spaces in Urban, Rural and Cross Border Settings and requesting the opportunity to discuss the details and recommendations of the report.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that, unfortunately due to the pressure of work to be completed before the end of the mandate it would not be possible to schedule a discussion on this report.
(iii) The Committee noted a copy of the Northern Ireland Law C ommission Report on Land Law.
(iv) The Committee considered correspondence from the Bar Council inviting Members to visit the Bar Library to gain an insight and understanding of how the Bar operates.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Bar Council indicating that, if possible, a visit would be scheduled into the work programme but it was more likely to take place in the new mandate.
(v) The Committee noted correspondence from the Prisoner Ombudsman for Northern Ireland advising that she will provide copies of her reports to the Committee and offering to brief the Committee on any report where that would be helpful.
(vi) The Committee noted correspondence from the Volunteer Now organisation providing a research report exploring volunteering activities within the community safety context and urging the Committee to continue supporting volunteer involving organisations working on behalf of the Department of Justice.
(vii) The Committee noted an invitation to NIACRO’s Fifth Justice Series Seminar on Effective Youth Justice on Tuesday 1 February 2011.
(viii) The Committee noted correspondence from the Minister of Justice providing a copy of a report of the investigation by the NI Prison Service into the erroneous release of Sean Gerard Cahill on 24 November 2010.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that if a Member wished to return to this issue they should advise the Clerk.
10 . Any Other Business
The Committee noted the recent appointment of two Judges by the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Committee (NIJAC).
Agreed: The Committee agreed that a mechanism should be put in place by which it would be notified of appointments and other significant announcements by NIJAC.
11 . Date and Time of next Meeting
The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 1 February at 3.00 p.m. in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.
6.50 p.m. The meeting was adjourned.
Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley MLA
Chairman, Committee for Justice
3 February 2011
25 January 11 / Menu
