COMMITTEE FOR JUSTICE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
THURSDAY, 20 JANUARY 2011
ROOM 29, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Lord Morrow MLA (Chairman)
Mr Raymond McCartney MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Thomas Buchanan MLA
Mr Paul Givan MLA
Mr Alban Maginness MLA
Mr Conall McDevitt MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín MLA
Mr John O’Dowd MLA
In Attendance:
Mrs Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Mrs Roisin Donnelly (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Mr Joe Westland (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Kevin Marks (Clerical Officer)
Apologies:
Lord Empey MLA
The meeting commenced at 2.05 p.m. in public session.
1. Apologies
Apologies are detailed above.
2. Draft minutes of the meeting held on 13 January 2011
Agreed: The Committee approved the draft minutes of the meeting held on 13 January 2011
3. Matters Arising
(i) The Committee noted a copy of correspondence provided by the Committee for Finance and Personnel from the Department of Finance and Personnel outlining its understanding that the Department of Justice access to the Reserve would be permitted for exceptional security pressures as envisaged when the Stage 2 devolution agreement was made.
The Committee also noted a statement issued by the Northern Ireland Office which confirmed that the Treasury was standing by its commitment, given at the time of the devolution of policing and justice, that any underspends by the Department of Justice may be carried over to future years.
(ii) The Committee discussed any issues, relating to the Justice Bill, that may be useful to seek the views of the Attorney General on.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to write to the Attorney General seeking his views on whether the current law as it stands is adequate in relation to the areas covered by clauses 41, 42, and 43 of the Justice Bill.
(iii) The Committee noted the consultation document relating to a new Community Safety Strategy for Northern Ireland which was due to be published by the Department of Justice on 20 January 2011.
4. Departmental Briefing on the results of research into the impact of introducing a fixed means test for criminal legal aid
Robert Crawford, Head of Public Legal Services Division and John Halliday, Criminal Legal Aid Policy Advisor, Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service joined the meeting at 2.15 p.m.
The Departmental officials briefed the Committee on the results of the research commissioned by the NI Courts and Tribunals Service into the impact of introducing a fixed means test for criminal legal aid and answered questions on the potential cost savings and the likely eligibility of the options, the possible impact of the introduction of a fixed means test on delays in court cases and whether the principle of introducing a fixed means test was worth pursuing.
The officials agreed to provide the results of further analysis.
2.42 p.m. Mr McNarry left the meeting.
The Chairman thanked the officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.
The evidence session was recorded by Hansard.
5. Departmental Briefing on draft consultation paper on Review of Community Sentencing
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Paul Doran, Deputy Director, Probation Board Northern Ireland, Janice Smiley, Head of Criminal Policy Unit, and Anne O’Connell, Criminal Justice Sentencing Policy Unit joined the meeting at 2.44 p.m.
The officials briefed the Committee on proposals for a consultation exercise on a Review of Community Sentencing. A question and answer session followed covering issues including the reoffending rates in relation to Community Service Orders as opposed to custodial sentences; the deterrent value of Community Service Orders compared to imprisonment; the need for community confidence in any system; and the timescales for the consultation exercise and clear proposals on the way forward.
The Chairman thanked the officials for the briefing and they left the meeting.
6. Justice Bill - Formal Clause by Clause Consideration – Parts 1 and 2 – Victims and Witnesses and Live Links
The Committee commenced its formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Justice Bill.
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division, Tom Haire, Justice Bill Manager and Janice Smiley, Head of Criminal Policy Unit joined the meeting at 3.38 p.m.
The Committee considered Clauses 1 – 6 relating to the Offender Levy. The Committee discussed a proposal to strengthen Clause 1 to provide a reparation element with the offender having the option of paying the levy or undertaking a limited amount of community service work. The point was made that if the aim of introducing the Offender Levy was to get people to recognise they had done something wrong then the clause needed to be changed in this way. Concerns were raised regarding whether adopting this proposal was practical and if it would further increase the administration costs associated with the Offender Levy.
Clause 1 – Offender levy imposed by court
Question: That the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 3; Abstain 0
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt
NOES
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Clause 1 as drafted.
Clause 2 – Enforcement and treatment of offender levy imposed by court
The Committee considered Clause 2 as drafted.
Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 2 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt
Abstain
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Clause 2 as drafted.
Clause 3 – Deduction of offender levy imposed by court from prisoner's earnings
The Committee considered Clause 3 as drafted.
Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 3 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt
Abstain
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Clause 3 as drafted.
Clause 4 – Offender levy imposed by court: other supplementary provisions
The Committee considered Clause 4 as drafted.
Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 4 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 0; Abstain 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt
Abstain
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Clause 4 as drafted.
Clause 5 – Offender levy on certain penalties
The Committee considered Clause 5 as drafted. The Committee considered whether the application of the offender levy applying to fixed penalty traffic fines was warranted. Departmental officials clarified that the levy would be applied to criminal offences which would include fixed penalty speeding tickets but would not include parking tickets.
Question: That the Committee is content with Clause 5 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 5; Noes 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Alban Maginness
Mr Conall McDevitt
NOES
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Clause 5 as drafted.
3.53 p.m. Alban Maginness left the meeting.
Clause 6 – Amount of the offender levy
The Committee considered Clause 6 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 4; Noes 0; Abstain 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Conall McDevitt
Abstain
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Clause 6 as drafted.
Schedule 5 paragraph 1 – Offender levy
The Committee considered Schedule 5 paragraph 1 as drafted.
The Committee divided: Ayes 4; Noes 0; Abstain 3
AYES
Lord Browne
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Mr Conall McDevitt
Abstain
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
Lord Morrow did not participate in the vote.
Agreed: That the Committee is content with Schedule 5 paragraph 1 as drafted.
The Committee considered Clauses 7 to 13 relating to vulnerable and intimidated witnesses
Clause 7 – Eligibility for special measures: age of child witnesses
The Committee considered Clause 7 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 7 put and agreed to.”
Clause 8 – Special Measures directions for child witnesses
The Committee considered Clause 8 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 8 put and agreed to.”
Clause 9 – Special provisions relating to sexual offences
The Committee considered Clause 9 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 9 put and agreed to”.
Clause 10 – Evidence by live link: presence of supporter
The Committee considered Clause 10 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 10 put and agreed to.”
Clause 11 – Video recorded evidence in chief: supplementary testimony
The Committee considered Clause 11 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 11 put and agreed to.”
Clause 12 – Examination of accused through intermediary
The Committee considered Clause 12 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 12 put and agreed to.”
Clause 13 – Age of child complainant
The Committee considered Clause 13 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 13 put and agreed to.”
The Committee considered clauses 14 to 19 relating to Live Links
Clause 14 - Live links for patients detained in hospital - parked
The Committee discussed a proposal that a trained mental health advocate should be automatically be allowed to provide assistance at a psychiatric hospital rather than an application having to be made by a patient as envisaged in the clause as drafted
Agreed: The Committee agreed to return to this clause once further information has been provided by the Department.
Clause 15 – Live links at preliminary hearing in the High Court
The Committee considered Clause 15 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 15 put and agreed to.”
Clause 16 – Live links at preliminary hearing on appeals to the county court
The Committee considered a proposed amendment to Clause 16 from the Department to set out what happens when a live link breaks down. The Department viewed the amendment as being valuable in terms of ensuring consistency with other live links legislation and in providing a guarantee to appellants in ensuring that any rearranged hearing in held promptly.
The Committee also discussed a proposal to insert a requirement into the clause for the written consent of the appellant.
“Question: That the Committee is content with the proposed Department of Justice amendment to insert at end of Clause 16, page 12, line 5 –
“(8A) If the court proceeds with the hearing under paragraph (8) it shall not remand the appellant in custody for a period exceeding 8 days commencing on the day following that on which it remands him.”
Put and agreed to.”
Mr John O’Dowd proposed an amendment to the clause to require the appellant’s consent
The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 4; Abstain 1
AYES
Mr Raymond McCartney
Ms Carál Ní Chuilín
Mr John O'Dowd
NOES
Lord Browne
Lord Morrow
Mr Thomas Buchannan
Mr Paul Givan
Abstain
Mr Conall McDevitt
Agreed: That the proposal falls.
Clause 17 – Live link in sentencing hearing on appeals to the county court
The Committee considered Clause 17 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 17 put and agreed to.”
Clause 18 – Live links in the Court of Appeal
The Committee considered Clause 18 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 18 put and agreed to.”
Clause 19 – Live link direction for vulnerable accused
The Committee considered Clause 19 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Clause 19 put and agreed to.”
Schedule 5 paragraph 2 – Vulnerable and intimidated witnesses
The Committee considered Schedule 5 paragraph 2 as drafted.
Question: “That the Committee is content with Schedule 5 paragraph 2 put and agreed to.”
The Chairman thanked the officials and they left the meeting.
The Clause by Clause consideration was recorded by Hansard.
7. Justice Bill - Continuation of Informal Clause by Clause consideration
Gareth Johnston, Head of Justice Strategy Division and David Hughes, Head of Policing Policy and Strategy Division joined the meeting at 4.18 p.m. to provide further information and clarification, if necessary on Schedules 1 and 2 of the Justice Bill.
The Committee reviewed the evidence provided on Schedules 1 and 2 of the Bill and sought further information and clarification from the departmental officials on paragraphs 4, 7, 8 10, 13, 14 and 17.
The Chairman thanked the officials and they left the meeting.
The clause-by-clause consideration was recorded by Hansard
The Committee considered the work schedule for its continued scrutiny of the Justice Bill.
Agreed: The Committee agreed to postpone the briefings scheduled for 27 January by the Law Society and the Bar Council on the proposals for Remuneration of Defence Counsel in Crown Court Cases and the briefing by department officials on proposals for assignment of counsel.
8. Chairman’s Business
The Committee noted that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman had met with representatives of the Law Society on 18 January regarding the “Solicitor Advocacy” clauses. The Chairman advised the Committee that the Law Society had not proceeded with its Judicial Review in relation to this matter and further information on possible clauses was expected from the Department of Justice in the near future.
9. Correspondence
(i) The Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding the Publication of National Statistics Bulletin 4/2010 ‘Experience of Crime: Findings from the 2009/10 Northern Ireland Crime Survey’.
(ii) The Committee considered correspondence from the Department of Justice regarding the results of the consultation on the provision of in-court interpretation services undertaken by the NI Courts and Tribunals Service.
Agreed : The Committee agreed to request an oral briefing on this matter.
(iii) The Committee considered correspondence from the Committee on Procedures indicating its decision to put its Inquiry into how the Attorney General for Northern Ireland will interact with the Assembly on hold until the outcome of the planned Department of Justice consultation on, among other things, the power of the Attorney General is known.
Agreed : The Committee agreedto write to the Minister of Justice requesting an up-date on the position regarding the consultation and when it is likely to take place.
10 . Any Other Business
None.
11 . Date and Time of next Meeting
The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 25 January at 3.00 p.m. in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.
5.12 p.m. The meeting was adjourned.
Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley MLA
Chairman, Committee for Justice
27 January 2011
18 January 11 / Menu
