Session 2007/2008

First Report

COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

Report on
The Libraries Bill
(NIA 5/07)

TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND
WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS RELATING TO THE REPORT

Ordered by the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure to be printed 7 February 2008
Report: 19/07/08R (Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Membership and Powers

Powers

The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure is a Statutory Departmental Committee established in accordance with paragraphs 8 and 9 of the Belfast Agreement, Section 29 of the NI Act 1998 and under Assembly Standing Order 46. The Committee has a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and has a role in the initiation of legislation.

The Committee has the power to:

consider and advise on Departmental budgets and annual plans in the context of the overall budget allocation;
approve relevant secondary legislation and take the Committee Stage of primary legislation;
call for persons and papers;
initiate inquiries and make reports; and
consider and advise on matters brought to the Committee by the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

Membership

The Committee has 11 members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, with a quorum of five members.

The membership of the Committee since 9 May 2007 has been as follows;

Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Paul Maskey
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson*
Mr Jim Shannon

* Mr Ken Robinson replaced Mr David Burnside with effect from 18 June 2007.

Executive Summary

Introduction

Consideration of the Bill

Clause by Clause consideration of the Bill

Appendix 1

Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

Appendix 3

Written Submissions

Appendix 4

Written Evidence and other Correspondence considered by the Committee

Appendix 5

List of witnesses

List of Abbreviations
Used in the Report

ACL	Association of Chief Librarians
BELB	Belfast Education and Library Board
CILIP	Chartered Institute of Library Professionals
CIFPA	Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy
DE	Department of Education
DSO	Departmental Solicitors Office
ESA	Education and Skills Authority
DCAL	Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
DFP	Department of Finance and Personnel
LISC (NI)	Library and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)
NAC	National Association of Councillors
NDPB	Non-Departmental Public Bodies
NILA	Northern Ireland Library Authority
NILGA	Northern Ireland Local Government Association
NIPR	Northern Ireland Publications Resource
NIPSA	Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance
OCPA	Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments
RPA	Review of Public Administration
SEELB	South Eastern Education and Library Board
SELB	Southern Education and Library Board
WELB	Western Education and Library Board

Executive Summary

1. The Bill has two main purposes. These are:

To provide for the establishment and functions of the Northern Ireland Library Authority;
To enable the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to make grants in connection with the provision of library services; and
For connected purposes.

2. The Committee agreed that it was content with clause 1, and clauses 3 to 13. Members voiced concerns regarding the omission of the words “comprehensive and efficient” from Clause 2 sub-section (1) (Duty of Authority to provide library service), given that these words are used in the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 to describe this duty. The Committee was also concerned that there was no duty on the Authority to create a collection of material relevant to the cultural heritage of Northern Ireland. During the Committee Stage of the Bill the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure proposed two amendments to this Clause and the wording of these was agreed by the Committee. The Committee agreed clause 2 as amended.

3. The Committee was opposed to the provisions of Schedule 1 paragraph 2 which prescribed the membership of the Authority with regard to the numbers and makeup. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure proposed three amendments to this paragraph which were approved by the Committee. The Committee was also opposed to Schedule 1 paragraph 6 in relation to arrangements for secondments with the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Members suggested that Schedule 1 paragraph 6 was unnecessary, given the provisions of Schedule 1, sub-paragraph 5(b). The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure proposed an amendment to leave out paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 to the satisfaction of the Committee.

4. A further three technical amendments were proposed by the Department in relation to Schedule 3 which makes consequential changes to other related statutes.

5. The Committee agreed the provisions of Schedule 4 as drafted.

Introduction

1. The Libraries Bill was referred to the Committee for consideration in accordance with Standing Order 31(1) of the Northern Ireland Assembly after completing its Second Stage on 19 June 2007.

2. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure made the following statement under section 9 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998:

“In my view the Libraries Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly”.

3. The Secretary of State has consented under section 10(3) (b) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to the Assembly considering the Bill.

4. The stated purpose of the Bill is as follows:

To provide for the establishment and functions of the Northern Ireland Library Authority;
To enable the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to make grants in connection with the provision of library services; and
For connected purposes.

Consideration of the Bill

5. During the period covered by this Report, the Committee considered the Bill and related issues at 16 meetings - on 4 September, 13 September, 20 September, 27 September, 4 October, 11 October, 18 October, 25 October, 8 November, 22 November, 29 November, 6 December, 13 December 2007, 10 January, 17 January and 24 January 2008 to consider the Bill. The relevant extracts from the Minutes of Proceedings for these meetings are included at Appendix 1.

6. The Committee had before it the Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07) and the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum that accompanied the Bill.

7. On referral of the Bill to the Committee after Second Stage, the Committee wrote directly to 57 organisations and individuals, 28 of which had previously responded to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s public consultation exercise on The Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 2007, and might therefore have an interest in the Bill. This consultation ran between January and April 2007 prior to the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

8. The Committee also placed a public notice in the Belfast Telegraph, Belfast Telegraph Northwest edition, the Irish News and the Newsletter seeking written submissions on the Bill.

9. A total of 18 organisations and individuals responded to the request for written evidence and a copy of the submissions received by the Committee is included at Appendix 3.

10. On 24 May 2007 prior to the introduction of the Bill, the Committee was briefed by Departmental officials about the policy behind the Bill and its general provisions. Following referral of the Bill for Committee Stage, the Committee took evidence from the Association of Chief Librarians, the Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland, and the Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland on 13 September; the Belfast Education and Library Board, the Western Education and Library Board, the Southern Education and Library Board and the South Eastern Education and Library Board on 20 September; the North Eastern Education and Library Board, NIPSA and UNISON on 27 September; officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Departmental Solicitors Office on 4 October, 6 December, 10 December 2007 and 17 January 2008 and the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure on 18 October 2007. The Minutes of Evidence are included at Appendix 2.

11. On 24 September 2007, the Assembly agreed to extend the Committee Stage of the Bill to 25 February 2008.

12. The Committee further considered the Libraries Bill at its meetings of 25 October, 8 November, 22 November, 29 November, 6 December, 13 December 2007 and, 10 January, 17 January and 24 January 2008. During this period the Committee requested clarification and information from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure on a range of issues. The Committee’s letters and the responses received are included at Appendix 4.

Clause by Clause Consideration of the Bill

13. The Committee undertook its clause by clause scrutiny of the Bill on 29 November, 6 December 2007, 10 January and 17 January 2008. The Minutes of Evidence are included at Appendix 2.

14. The Committee gave detailed consideration to the Clauses of the Bill and was satisfied that they would provide for the establishment of the Northern Ireland Library Service.

15. However, the Committee was concerned that the term ‘comprehensive and efficient’ was not contained in Clause 2. The Committee wrote to the Minister proposing that he include that term in the clause. The Minister agreed in a letter dated 27 November 2007 to include a reference to ‘comprehensive and efficient’ in the legislation – see Appendix 4.

16. The Committee agreed a further amendment to Clause 2 related to availability of material on Northern Ireland’s cultural heritage. The Minister agreed in his letter of 23 January 2008 to include an additional Clause to add to the list of desirable functions.

17. The Committee was concerned with the arrangements for membership of the Authority as set out in Schedule 1, paragraph 2. The Committee wrote to the Minister setting out its proposals for Schedule 1 (2). In his response dated 20 December 2007, the Minister agreed to the Committee’s suggestion that the majority of members of the Board should be elected representative of District Councils. The Minister also agreed to a Board of up to 19 members and for the majority of places for elected representatives to be stated in the legislation.

18. The Committee was of the view that Schedule 1, paragraph 6 in relation to arrangements for secondments with the Northern Ireland Civil Service was unnecessary, given the provisions of Schedule 1, sub-paragraph 5(b). The Department agreed with the Committee’s view that Schedule 1, paragraph 6 should be omitted from the Bill – see minutes of 29 November 2007 Appendix 1.

19. In relation to Schedule 2 of the Bill, NIPSA had proposed a number of amendments to the Committee in both its written and oral evidence. The Committee discussed the issues involved with a representative from the Departmental Solicitors Office at its meetings of 4 October and 6 December 2007. The Committee then wrote to the Minister seeking confirmation that he was content with the legal advice he had received regarding Schedule 2 and that the drafting of Schedule 2 reflected the advice he had received. The Minister gave that assurance in a letter dated 20 December 2007 – see Appendix 4. The Committee therefore concluded that it was content with Schedule 2 as drafted.

20. The Department proposed a number of technical amendments to Schedule 3 (consequential changes to other statutes).The Committee agreed Schedule 3 as amended and Schedule 4 as drafted.

21. At its meeting of 7 February 2008, the Committee agreed its report on the Bill and agreed that it should be printed.

Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report

Thursday, 24 May 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mr Alan Patterson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Denis Arnold (Bill Office – Item 4 only)

Apologies: Mr David Burnside MLA

The meeting opened at 10.40am in public session.

1. Departmental presentation on draft Libraries Bill

The following officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure joined the meeting at 11.10am:

Mr Paul Sweeney (Permanent Secretary)
Mr Colin Jack (Head of Culture Division)

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.12am

Mr Jack gave an overview of the draft Libraries Bill. This was followed by a question and answer session.

[EXTRACT]

Tuesday, 4 September 2007
Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Witnesses: Mr Edwin Poots – Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Colin Jack – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox – Northern Ireland Library Authority

The meeting opened at 10.35am in public session.

1 Libraries Bill

The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Mr Edwin Poots MLA, and the following officials joined the meeting 10.45am:

Colin Jack (Head of Culture, Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Irene Knox (Chief Executive Designate, Northern Ireland Library Authority)

The Minister and Ms Knox briefed the Committee on the Department’s proposed timetable for the Libraries Bill and for the setting up of the new Library Authority. This was followed by a question and answer session.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.25am.
Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.30am.
Mr Robinson left the meeting at 11.45am.
Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 11.50am.
Mr Bradley left the meeting at 11.50am.
Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 11.52am.
The Minister and his officials left the meeting at 12.03pm.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.05pm.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to provide the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure with copies of the written submissions received on the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to consider at next week’s meeting a suitable extension date for the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to ask Assembly Research Services for information on the process by which the Department selected the single library authority model.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure for further information on its proposal that the Library Authority will have a sub-regional structure.

The Chair referred members to the paper on the Libraries Bill prepared by Assembly Research Services.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 13 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Martin Wilson (Bill Office)
Mrs Jane Campbell (Assembly Research Services)

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Paul Maskey MLA

Witnesses: Ms Katherine McCloskey – Association of Chief Librarians
Ms Helen Osborne – Association of Chief Librarians
Ms Anne Connolly – Association of Chief Librarians
Mr Bob McKee – Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Mr John McCormick - Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Ms Elga Logue - Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Mr Kirby Porter - Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland
Mr John Gray – Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland

The meeting opened at 10.20am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chair) - Member of Western Education & Library Board

Mr Nelson McCausland – Chair of the Library Committee of the Belfast Education & Library Board

Mrs Jane Campbell from Assembly Research Service briefed the Committee on the background to the creation of the Libraries Bill.

The Association of Chief Librarians gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

The Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Bill.

The Libraries and Information Services Council Northern Ireland gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Board.

Mr Martin Wilson from the Assembly Bill Office briefed the Committee on issues involved in Committee Stage of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure seeking a breakdown of the predicted savings for the new Library Authority as set out in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to take evidence from officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure on 4 October 2007 and to take evidence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on 11 October 2007.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to seek an extension to Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill to 25 February 2008.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 20 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson) MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA

Witnesses: Ms Joan Christie – South Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Adrienne Adair – South Eastern Education and Library Board
Mr Stanton Sloan – South Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Helen Osborne – Western Education and Library Board
Mr Barry Mulholland - Western Education and Library Board
Mr Bill Reilly - Western Education and Library Board
Mr David Cargo – Belfast Education and Library Board
Mr David Jess – Belfast Education and Library Board
Ms Rosemary Frawley – Belfast Education and Library Board
Ms Marie Donnell - Southern Education and Library Board
Mr Wilbert Mayne - Southern Education and Library Board
Ms Kathleen Ryan - Southern Education and Library Board

The meeting opened at 10.38am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

The Deputy Chair referred members to the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ policy document and to The Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986.

The South Eastern Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Bradley joined the meeting at 10.55am.
Mr Shannon left the meeting at 11.26am.
Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.27am.
Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.31am.
Mr McCarthy left the meeting at 11.34am.

The Belfast Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Bill.

The Belfast Education and Library Board extended an invitation to the Committee to visit the Central Library in Belfast.

The Western Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 12.00pm.
Mr McCarthy rejoined the meeting at 12.05pm.
Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.07pm.

The Southern Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting at 12.38pm.

The Deputy Chair advised members that he had been notified by the Business Office that it had received a query as to whether it would be admissible for the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to table an amendment to the motion to extend the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the Chair and Deputy Chair meet with Departmental officials to discuss any possible amendments to the motion, and to report back on these discussions to the Committee.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 27 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Ken Robinson

Witnesses: Mr Billy McCartney – North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Anne Connolly – North Eastern Education and Library Board
Mr Gordon Topping – North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Patricia McKeown - UNISON
Mr Jonathon Swallow - UNISON
Mr John Corey - NIPSA
Ms Alison Millar - NIPSA
Ms Mary McVeigh - NIPSA

The meeting opened at 10.36am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff (Chair) - Member of Western Education & Library Board

The North Eastern Education and Library Board gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Maskey left the meeting at 11.02am.
Mr Maskey rejoined the meeting at 11.06am.
Mr Maskey left the meeting at 11.13am.

UNISON gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Board.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.25am.
Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.35am.
Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 11.40am.

NIPSA gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee, on the Libraries Bill.

Mr McCausland joined the meeting at 12.16pm.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the five Education and Library Boards, UNISON and NIPSA to ask them for their estimates of start-up costs for the Library Authority.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to seek the assistance of Assembly Legal Services in relation to Schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask for a breakdown of the estimated savings for the Library Authority and whether he was intending to review them. The Committee also agreed to query with the Minister as to why a Business Plan had not already been produced for the Library Authority.

The Chair advised members that Research Service will present a paper on the Libraries Bill on 18 October 2007.

The Chair advised members that the motion to extend Committee Stage of the Bill was agreed by the Assembly on 24 September 2007.

Agreed: the Committee agreed a list of issues to be forwarded to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, in preparation for their officials giving evidence to the Committee at next week’s meeting.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority seeking an update on recruitment of staff and progress on developing the sub-regional structure of the Library Authority.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 4 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

Apologies: Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

Witnesses: Mr Paul Sweeney – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Julie Mapstone – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Noel Kelly – Departmental Solicitors Office

The meeting opened at 10.37am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson) – Member of the Western Education and Library Board.

Mr Dominic Bradley MLA – Member of Newry Library.

Mr Nelson McCausland – Chairperson of the Library Committee, Belfast Education and Library Board.

Officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 10.55am.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.32am.
Mr Brolly left the meeting at 11.55am.
Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 11.56am.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to seek further information on the start-up costs and estimated savings associated with the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to NIPSA requesting a copy of the legal advice it received on Schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 11 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

In Attendance: Mr John Torney (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Tim Moore (Research Service)

The meeting opened at 10.35am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Agreed: the Committee agreed to forward the legal opinion on Schedule 2 received from NIPSA to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure for onward transmission to the Departmental Solicitor’s Office. Mr McNarry asked that his dissatisfaction with this arrangement be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings.

The Chair referred members to the article sent by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to the Committee regarding book spend in libraries in Northern Ireland.

The Chair referred members to the response from the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority to the Committee’s request for an update on progress with the recruitment of staff and the development of a sub-regional structure.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the Bill paper from Research Service be rescheduled from 18 October 2007 to a later date.

The Committee discussed issues on the Libraries Bill in preparation for the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure giving oral evidence at the next meeting of the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to hold its next meeting at 10.00am in order to discuss Schedule 2 and issues around the costs of the Library Authority, before taking evidence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.08am.
Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.10am.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.15am.
Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.23am.
Mr Shannon left the meeting at 11.45am.
Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting at 11.48am.
Mr Bradley left the meeting at 11.58am.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.00pm.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 18 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

Witnesses: Mr Edwin Poots – Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox – Northern Ireland Library Authority
Mr Colin Jack – Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure

The meeting opened at 10.08am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

The Committee discussed issues on the Libraries Bill in preparation for the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure giving oral evidence to the Committee.

Mr Bradley joined the meeting at 10.16am.
Mr McCausland left the meeting at 10.23am.
Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 10.24am.

Members declared the following interests:

Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson) – Member of the Western Education and Library Board.

Mr Dominic Bradley MLA – Board of Governors, primary school.

Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA – Board of Governors, two schools.

Mr Nelson McCausland MLA – Chairperson of the Library Committee, Belfast Education and Library Board. Board of Governors, three schools.

Mr Ken Robinson MLA – Board of Governors, two schools.

Mr Jim Shannon MLA – Board of Governors, two schools.

The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, gave oral evidence, in public, to the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

Mr Maskey left the meeting at 11.20am.
Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 12.05pm.
Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.15pm.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister for further clarification on the discussions which his Department has had with the Department of Education in relation to synchronising the establishment of the Library Authority and the Education and Skills Authority. The Committee also agreed to request information from the Minister on how the links between the Public Library Service and the Schools Library Service would be maintained and developed, and on the issues which would be covered by service level agreements.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 25 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA

The meeting opened at 10.37am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Mrs Jane Campbell from Research Service presented the Bill paper to the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask for the Department’s plans concerning the carrying out of an Equality Impact Assessment on the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to request the outcome of his deliberations on the inclusion of the terms ‘comprehensive’ and ‘efficient’ in Clause 2 of the Libraries Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure requesting that he consider amending Schedule 1 (2) of the Bill to specify that the Library Authority should have 20 members.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure requesting that he consider amending Schedule 1 (2) of the Bill to specify that members of the Library Authority are representative of the community in Northern Ireland.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask who will be responsible for making the rules for the operation of the Library Authority.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure asking that he respond to the issues raised by Mr Ramsey at the evidence session of 18 October 2007.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask that he respond to the Committee’s requests regarding the Libraries Bill by 14 November 2007.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 8 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Denis Arnold (Bill Office)

The meeting opened at 10.05am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Deputy Chairperson referred members to the correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on start-up costs for the Library Authority.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure asking to be kept informed of any planned redundancies or changes to the estimated start-up costs. The Committee also agreed to ask whether human resources and financial systems are currently shared between the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s Non Departmental Public Bodies (NDPBs), and whether it is envisaged that all NDPBs would share such services in the future. The Committee agreed to further ask the Minister for clarification on the conclusion of the summary of the Deloitte report.

Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 10.10am.

The Deputy Chairperson referred members to the correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on Clause 6 of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to ask the Bill Office to provide further guidance on the possible re-wording of Clause 6 of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure regarding the retention and protection of experience of longer serving staff currently employed in the Education and Library Boards.

Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 10.20am.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to ask the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for a timeline of the process for the appointment of the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 22 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.36am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure in response to the concerns raised by the Committee on the Libraries Bill.

The Committee discussed a range of issues on the Libraries Bill in preparation for the clause by clause reading of the Bill at the next meeting of the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask why no money has been set aside for redundancies, and whether the Library Authority intends to seek external sources of funding.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to seek his assurance that the Department will consult with the Committee should it may any decision in the future to change its library charging policy.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to ask what date has been arranged for the meeting between NIPSA’s legal advisor and the Departmental Solicitors Office, and to request that the Committee is informed of the outcome of the meeting as soon as possible thereafter.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 29 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Francie Brolly MLA
In Attendance: Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Denis Arnold (Bill Office)

The meeting opened at 10.05am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on the appointment of the Chief Executive Designate, the position of library staff, and options for corporate services.

The following officials joined the meeting at 11.18am:

Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

The Committee carried out a detailed clause by clause scrutiny of main body of the Bill, along with Schedules 1. The clauses were read along with the related commentary in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum.

Clause 1 (The Northern Ireland Library Authority)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Mr Shannon rejoined the meeting at 11.19am.

Clause 2 (Duty of Authority to provide library services)

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of Clause 2 until its next meeting.

Clause 3 (Ancillary Powers of Authority)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 4 (Power of Authority to undertake commercial activities)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 5 (Powers of Authority in relation to land)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 6 (Charges for certain library services)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 7 (Byelaws in respect of use of library services)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 8 (Grants for or in connection with library services)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 9 (Directions)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 10 (Amendments and repeals)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 11 (Interpretation)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 12 (Commencement)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Clause 13 (Short title)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the clause as drafted.

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.45am.

Schedule 1 – The Northern Ireland Library Authority

Paragraph 1 (Status)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 2 (Membership)

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of paragraph 2 to its next meeting.

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 11.50am.

Paragraph 3 (Tenure of office)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 4 (Remuneration, etc., of members)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 5 (Employees)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Mr Robinson left the meeting at 12.00pm.

Paragraph 6 (Employees)

Agreed: that the Committee is opposed to the paragraph as drafted.

Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.02pm.

Paragraph 7 (Remuneration, allowance and pensions of employees)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 12.05pm.

Paragraph 8 (Arrangements for assistance)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 9 (Committees)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 10 (Delegation to committees and staff)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 11 (Proceedings)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 12 (Proceedings)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 13 (Application of seal and documents)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 14 (Application of seal and documents)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 15 (Premises)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 16 (Finance)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 17 (Accounts)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 18 (Annual report)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 19 (Interpretation)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Schedule 3 – Amendments

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of Schedule 3 until its next meeting.

Schedule 4 – Repeals

Agreed: the Committee agreed to defer consideration of Schedule 4 until its next meeting.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to continue its consideration of the Bill at its next meeting.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 6 December 2007
Central Library, Belfast

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)

In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mr Dara McGaughey (Research Service)

The meeting opened at 10.47am in public session.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The following witnesses attended:

Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitors Office)

The Committee continued its clause by clause scrutiny of the Bill.

Clause 2 – Duty of Authority to provide library service

‘Question put and agreed:

‘That the Committee agrees with the Minister’s proposal as described in his letter of 27 November 2007 which is before the Committee’.

Schedule 1 – The Northern Ireland Library Authority

Paragraph 2 (Membership)

Agreed : the Committee agreed to write to the Minister with its proposal outlining the Committee’s views regarding the membership of the Library Authority.

Schedule 2 – Staff transfers

Paragraph 2 (Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 3 (Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 5 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 6 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 7 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 8 (Continuity)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 9 (Incidental provision)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Paragraph 10 (Interpretation)

Agreed: that the Committee is content with the paragraph as drafted.

Agreed : the Committee agreed to write to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure seeking his assurance that he is satisfied with the legal advice provided by Departmental Solicitors Office in relation to Schedule 2 (1) and Schedule 2 (4).

Schedule 3 – Amendments

‘Question put and agreed:

‘That the Committee accepts that this is a technical matter and that these amendments are necessary and consequent upon this legislation, and that the Committee is content to leave this with the Department and the draughtsman’.

Schedule 4 – Repeals

‘Question put and agreed:

‘That the Committee accepts that this is a technical matter and that these repeals are necessary and consequent upon this legislation, and that the Committee is content to leave this with the Department and the draughtsman’.

Agreed : the Committee agreed to invite the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority to brief the Committee on the proposed operational structure of the Library Authority on 17 January 2008.

Agreed : the Committee agreed to continue consideration of the Bill at its next meeting.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 13 December 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Browne MLA
Mr Paul Maskey MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA

In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Dr Kathryn Bell (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Florence Stocker (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.15am in public session.

Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 10.26am.

Mr Bradley joined the meeting at 10.34am.

The meeting moved into closed session at 11.40am.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.55am.

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting 12.18pm

The Committee moved into open session at 12.21pm.

Mr McCarthy left the meeting at 12.37pm.

Mr McCarthy re-joined the meeting at 12.40pm.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to the letter which has been sent from the Committee to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, setting out the Committee’s views on Schedule 1 (2) and Schedule 2 of the Bill.

The Chair advised members that the Chief Executive Designate of the Library Authority would brief the Committee on the proposed operational structure of the Library Authority on 17 January 2008.

The Chair referred members to correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure on the budget for redundancies for the Northern Ireland Library Service.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 10 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
The Lord Brown MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Mrs Florence Stocker (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mr Alister Strain (Clerical Officer)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.33am in public session.

Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 10.37am

Mr Brolly joined the meeting at 10.38am

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The Chair referred members to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s response to the Committee’s proposals relating to membership of the Board (Schedule 1(2)). The Minister has also confirmed that he is satisfied with the legal advice he received on Schedule 2 (Transfer Schemes).

The following witnesses attended:

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitor’s Office)

Agreed: the Committee agreed that it would not continue the clause by clause reading of Schedule 1, paragraph 2 until such time as the amendments were forwarded by the Department.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to the format of a letter to NIPSA asking if the Union wish to make any further comments on Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.17am.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to postpone further clause by clause reading of Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 until 17 January 2008.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to continue with the clause by clause reading of Schedule 2 paragraph 1.

Schedule 2 – Transfer Schemes
Paragraph 1 (Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.)

Agreed: that paragraph 1 should stand part of the Bill.

The Chair referred members to the outline plan prepared by the Committee Office.

The Chair referred members to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s response in relation to the December monitoring and details of potential redundancies and related costs.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Education and Library Boards asking for assurance that they will be able to continue to deliver efficient services given budget restraints.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to write to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure requesting details of proposed redundancies in each Education and Library Board and the cost in percentage terms of each Board’s budget.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure would provide details of the formula that the libraries use to calculate their funding -Assessment of Relevant Needs Exercise.

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.40am.

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 12.23pm

Mr Robinson left the meeting at 12.26pm

Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.34pm

Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 12.36pm

Mr Shannon left the meeting at 12.44pm

Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 12.56pm.

[EXTRACT]

Thursday, 17 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Apologies: Mr Paul Maskey MLA
In Attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Mrs Florence Stocker (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.34am in public session.

Mr McCausland joined the meeting at 10.36am

Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 10.43am.

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

The following witnesses attended:

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitors Office)

Mr Martin Wilson, Principle Clerk, briefed members on the work completed to date on the Libraries Bill. He indicated that all clauses with the exception of clause 2 had been agreed by the Committee but that the four schedules had yet to be agreed.

The Committee noted that the NIPSA reply to its letter dated 10 January 2008 had been received after the deadline set by the Committee.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to continue with the clause by clause reading of the Bill.

The Chair referred members to correspondence of 14 January 2008 from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure setting out proposed amendments to the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed that the words “comprehensive and efficient” should be reinstated into Clause 2 (1) by an amendment as proposed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that Clause 2, paragraph 2 (2) (b) should include a new sub-paragraph (vi) requiring the Authority to create a collection of material culturally specific to Northern Ireland by an amendment as proposed by Departmental officials during the meeting.

Agreed: that Clause 2 as amended should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1: the Northern Ireland Library Authority

Agreed: that paragraph 2(1) should be amended as proposed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that paragraph 2(2) should be amended as proposed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that paragraph 6 should be omitted as agreed by the Department in its letter of 14 January 2008.

Agreed: that Schedule 1 as amended should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2: Transfer Schemes

Agreed: that Schedule 2 as drafted should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 3: Amendments

Agreed: that Schedule 3 as amended should stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 4: Repeals

Agreed: that Schedule 4 as drafted should stand part of the Bill.

Mr McNarry joined the meeting at 11.20am

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.21am

Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.23am

2. Presentation on the Organisational Structures of the Northern Ireland Library Authority

The following officials were in attendance.

Ms Irene Knox (Chief Executive designate of the Northern Ireland Library Authority)

Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure)

The Chair referred members to a copy of the presentation paper on the proposed organisational structures of the Northern Ireland Authority.

Ms Knox briefed the Committee on the proposed organisational structures of the Northern Ireland Authority.

This was followed by a question and answer session.

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 11.40am

Mr McNarry rejoined the meeting at 11.44am

Mr Bradley left the meeting at 12.01pm

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 12.20pm

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.31pm

Mr Robinson left the meeting at 12.31pm

Mr Robinson rejoined the meeting at 12.32pm

Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 12.36pm

Mr Bradley rejoined the meeting at 12.36pm

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 12.55pm

Mr Shannon left the meeting at 1.15pm

[EXTRACT]

Thursday 24 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr David McNarry MLA (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley MLA
Mr Francie Brolly MLA
Lord Browne MLA
Mr Kieran McCarthy MLA
Mr Nelson McCausland MLA
Mr Pat Ramsey MLA
Mr Ken Robinson MLA
Mr Jim Shannon MLA

Apologies: Mr Barry McElduff MLA (Chairperson)
In attendance: Mr Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Mrs Linda Gregg (Clerk)
Mrs Elaine Farrell (Assistant Clerk)
Mrs Antonia Hoskins (Assistant Clerk)
Miss Mairéad Higgins (Clerical Supervisor)
Mrs Angela Aboagye (Clerical Officer)

The meeting opened at 10.31 a.m. in public session

Mr McCausland left the meeting at 11.45am

Mr Brolly left the meeting at 11.45am

Mr McCausland rejoined the meeting at 11.47am

Mr Brolley rejoined the meeting at 11.48am

Mr Bradley assumed the Chair at 12.01pm

Mr McNarry left the meeting at 12.01pm

Mr Ramsey left the meeting at 12.01

1. Libraries Bill

The Principal Clerk of Bills, briefed the Committee on the 4 groups of amendments relating to Libraries Bill, which will be moved at the Consideration Stage of the Bill.

Agreed: the Committee agreed to the amendments as set out in the Department’s letter of 23 January 2008 and to the four groups of amendments proposed by the Principal Clerk.

[EXTRACT]

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

4 September 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr Edwin Poots		The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Colin Jack		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox		proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority

1. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Mr Edwin Poots, to the meeting. He is accompanied by senior officials.

2. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure (Mr Poots): They are Mr Colin Jack and Ms Irene Knox, who is the new chief executive designate of the proposed Northern Ireland library authority.

3. The Chairperson: Thank you, Minister. I shall hand over to you straight away so that you can make your presentation on the Libraries Bill. Afterwards, the Committee will ask questions.

4. Mr Poots: I was enjoying the Committee’s scones, when I was rudely interrupted.

5. The Chairperson: I hope that you have not carried any of them into the room in your pocket because eating during the Committee meeting is not permitted.

6. Mr Poots: We had only half a scone each. However, half a scone is better than none.

7. It is good to be here. I trust that Committee members had a good break during the summer and that everyone is ready for hard work. There is plenty of work to be done, both by the Department and the Committee. I thank the Committee for my invitation to discuss the timing of the introduction of the library authority.

8. At the outset, I want to introduce Irene Knox officially. Most members will already know Ms Knox from her previous role as chief executive of the South Eastern Education and Library Board. She has now taken up her post as chief executive designate of the library authority. The circumstances of that appointment have been explained to the Assembly. She took up her post in August 2007 and is on secondment from the South Eastern Education and Library Board, pending the final decision on the legislation. Her task is to lead and take forward the setting-up of the new body. She is happy to talk to the Committee about her key priorities for the next few months. With the Committee’s agreement, I will invite her to do so later in the meeting.

9. At their meeting on 7 June, the Executive agreed that the Libraries Bill should be brought before the Assembly. The Libraries Bill sets out the argument for a single library service for the whole of Northern Ireland that will be managed and delivered by a regional body — the library authority. The matter is now for the Assembly to consider, and I am looking forward to working with the Committee to ensure that the issues are considered fully and that appropriate legislation is produced to establish a library service of which we can be proud.

10. The creation of a single library authority reflects the review of public administration’s (RPA) objective of streamlining the management and delivery of public services. It also reflects the desire to build on the developments that have been made towards joint working at regional level by the five existing library services during the past few years. That work has proved valuable, and I appreciate the way in which the library services of the education and library boards have worked together.

11. The Library Service’s provisions are universal and open to all. They are free at the point of use, and have no entry or eligibility requirements to deter users. They are, therefore, valuable in combating social exclusion and promoting equality of opportunity through meeting a range of needs among individuals and communities.

12. Even though the Library Service’s core services of book lending and reference have not substantially changed, a new core service has been added in recent years — internet access. Furthermore, the way in which libraries operate has changed. There is an additional emphasis on proactive engagement with, and on behalf of, specific social groups, often in partnership with others. It is important to have a structure for the delivery of libraries that will reflect their range of roles and broad customer base and which exploits their potential to contribute to equality of opportunity.

13. A single library service for Northern Ireland — delivered by one body, linked to other relevant providers and properly positioned to reflect local needs — offers an exciting way forward. Libraries have, inevitably, been the minor partners in education and library boards and the proposed change offers the opportunity to bring a new strategic focus to the delivery of library services that will benefit the public.

14. Chairperson, I know that you have asked me to talk chiefly about the Committee’s concerns on the timing of the introduction of the Libraries Bill, and I am happy to listen to your views and answer questions. However, before we do that, the chief executive designate will say a few words — with the Committee’s permission.

15. Ms Irene Knox (Northern Ireland Library Authority): I thank the Chairperson, the Committee, and the Minister for giving me the opportunity to attend this morning’s meeting. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the Committee about the work that I will be undertaking over the next few months, and I will be happy to return to the Committee at any stage. I am aware that the Committee will be involved in the consideration of the Bill over the next while, and I am content to talk to you at any time about the progress that I am making.

16. Subject to the Assembly’s agreement on the Libraries Bill, the aim is for the Northern Ireland library authority to function as a separate legal entity from 1 April 2008. To achieve that end, there is a significant amount of preparatory work to be done.

17. My first priority relates to the staff of the service. As Committee members will know, schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill makes provision for the transfer of staff from the existing education and library boards to the Northern Ireland library authority under the terms of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) at the time of commencement of the new authority. At that stage it will be necessary to have a comprehensive framework in place to support the human resource needs of the new organisation and to manage issues such as human resource policies and procedures, payroll, staff recruitment, training, terms and conditions, etc, as well as to establish consultation and negotiating machinery with the trade unions.

18. The new authority will also require an effective organisational structure to facilitate the delivery of the key priorities for the Library Service as contained in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’. That structure must take account of the regional nature of the new organisation as well as the importance of local delivery and local engagement through, for example, the anticipated community planning process. I envisage the library authority having a strong subregional structure that will facilitate involvement and participation at local level.

19. While people have a right to expect a seamless and equitable service throughout Northern Ireland in relation to core provision, the Library Service must also be responsive to the needs of local communities and tailor its services to meet those needs. The organisational structures I propose to put in place must facilitate that process.

20. In developing the proposals for that organisational structure I should like to involve the existing chief librarians and their deputies so that the local needs that they are already aware of can be reflected adequately, and that they have ownership of the outcome. Once that structure has been agreed it will be necessary to recruit the senior team — again, I emphasise, on a secondment basis — to help to make that a reality. As I have said, I see that senior team as being few in number.

21. The quality of the Library Service, now and in the future, is heavily dependent on the professionalism of the staff who work in it. This is an unsettling time for them, and I am very conscious of the need to ensure that the change process is handled sensitively and that staff are consulted and have an opportunity to contribute to the way forward. I will be taking as many opportunities as possible to visit libraries to meet staff and, indeed, customers and to hear from them the vision that they have for the public library service in the future.

22. My second priority relates to the financial systems. As a separate legal entity, the Northern Ireland library authority will need to have effective and efficient systems and procedures that comply with accounting and governance obligations. I understand that the Committee has recently received a copy of a report prepared by Deloitte on options for the financial systems for the new authority. Over the next few months it will be necessary to procure, design, test and implement an appropriate financial system and to facilitate the migration of relevant data from the education and library boards.

23. Given the importance of the human resource, financial functions and the financial aspect of the work over the next few months, I am seeking to engage a human resources project manager and a finance project manager from the education and library boards, again on a secondment basis, to assist with that work.

24. There will, of course, be other work ongoing on, for example, other corporate services, business planning, administrative functions, and so on. As far as I am concerned, the critical issue is to ensure that the structures and systems are in place to build on the developments in joint working at education and library board level and thus improve the quality of provision for the future.

25. I should be pleased to come back to the Committee at any stage, Mr Chairman, to update you on progress, and also to hear the Committee’s views on the work that needs to be done.

26. Thank you.

27. The Chairperson: Thank you. Are there any additional comments?

28. Mr Poots: Not at this stage.

29. Mr McNarry: I welcome you, Minister, and your staff.

30. I can see that a helter-skelter approach to this Bill has been adopted by your officials — you and I have discussed this before, Minister. The project was well under way before you actually took office. I define the Libraries Bill as a rush job, and I think that sufficient evidence of that will be brought to you today. Certainly, I am glad to see that it is going to be up to the Assembly to divert you, because you gave no indication in your opening remarks that you are deviating from proceeding with the Bill and the dates.

31. There is no specific date in the Bill for the library authority to take over from the education and library boards, and the boards themselves have been given a stay of execution. However, not only are you rushing this Bill, you have already rushed into appointing a chief executive designate to a body that does not exist. Today, I hear from her that she is now recruiting staff. She has said that she is seeking to engage both a human resources project manager and a finance project manager on a secondment basis. Engage them for what purpose, and to what organisation? We do not have a library authority. Minister, how is it proposed that the chief executive designate will fulfil her job description while the education and library boards continue to function and there is no library authority?

32. Does the chief executive designate have an employment contract? Have other designated appointments been made? Has a recruitment process been activated beyond what the chief executive designate has told us? What costs are being borne by your Department in preparation for the establishment of the library authority?

33. There is no date for establishment of the authority; that will be for the Assembly to decide. Should the Assembly decide that the date will be late in 2008 or perhaps, as is more likely, that it will be in 2009, will all this not have been premature? What will happen to the appointment of the chief executive designate and to other prospective appointments if the Assembly decides that it will not accept your rush job? The Assembly may conclude that a date in 2009 is preferable, and other colleagues will argue for such a date in line with RPA. In an era when the Finance Minister seems to be lecturing everyone on prudence — to steal a term from Gordon Brown — here you are, Minister, setting up a post for an organisation that does not exist. Staff have been appointed, and someone has been assigned to the most senior position — I do not know at what salary — in an organisation that does not exist, and the chief executive designate is now recruiting people to join her.

34. I do not fault the fact that preparation is a good thing, but premature preparation seems to be rather silly in this instance, and I am anxious to know the costs. If the library authority is not going to be established until 2009, what will those people do? What work will they do, who will they report to, and who will carry them? I do not think that the Assembly will respond positively to those costs if the authority is not going to be in place until 2009. I am interested to hear the Minister’s comments.

35. Mr Poots: That is quite a range of questions, but I will try to cover them.

36. Mr McNarry: I have another question, but I do not want to mix different issues.

37. Mr Poots: The process started a long time ago. In fact, at that time, the Deputy Chairperson may have been involved in advising those who started the RPA process. Six years after the Assembly decided to have a review of public administration. When I was on the other side of the table, I thought it did not go far enough — it is now being implemented.

38. It is correct to say that I have been handed the issue of the single library authority and responsibility of delivering that part of RPA. I have no doubt that the single library authority will deliver greater efficiency savings than are currently being made. If the commitment were to efficiency savings alone, the library authority would have been kept with a single education authority, because that would have made for a more efficient body overall. However, it is much better to have a single library authority whose focus is exclusively on delivering quality library services to the public. Library services are not a small element in Northern Ireland; delivery costs are over £30 million. Those services should have their own silo, as opposed to being the poor relation in another Department. Therefore the basis for establishing a single library authority is good, and I encourage the Committee to hear the views of others on the issue.

39. I come before the Committee today, having obtained the Executive’s agreement to proceed with a single library authority. Although I am conscious that 10 or 11 Members of the Assembly are not represented in the Executive, I have the support of the four parties that are represented in the Executive to deliver a single library authority in Northern Ireland, and that is the basis on which the Department is proceeding. When the point of deciding on the intention to go down that route is reached, it is for the Department to work with, and consult with, the Assembly and the Committee to deliver the library authority. The Department can say that it will do something and set a date for doing it, but it cannot achieve it by magic. Preparation work must be done first.

40. Therefore, with the agreement of the Executive, the Department has begun the preparation work needed to create a single library authority, the focus of which will be on delivering quality library services across Northern Ireland. We want to do that in a managed way and in a way that ensures that there is a seamless separation. We want to ensure that staff interests are not jeopardised. For example, if we do not employ people with expertise in corporate services and human resources, staff might not be paid, and that would be a wholly unacceptable situation. I have no apology to make for the work that is ongoing to take forward a policy that was agreed by the Executive.

41. Mr McNarry: Thank you, Minister. Is it not correct that the appointment of the chief executive designate was made before the Bill was brought before the Executive?

42. Mr Poots: The appointment was not made, but the process was in place.

43. Mr McNarry: The process was under way?

44. Mr Poots: Yes.

45. Mr McNarry: I will not go into the details, but you were not fully aware of the circumstances at the time, Minister. The process was well under way, and I am not hanging that on you. However, I am asking you to consider that it was possibly foolish to continue with a process in which nothing has been put into place.

46. All you have is agreement from the Executive to take a particular route. However, that route ends at the Assembly and, given information that you will know as well as the Committee does, proceeding with the Bill with the intention of having arrangements in place in 2007-08 is unlikely to succeed.

47. Minister, I am challenging you to address the question of whether you are squandering public money on salaries that are not yet of use. I do not take issue with the need for a single library authority; I have supported that, despite having certain reservations. I am not taking issue with the outcome, but with the manner in which the process has been rushed and the squandering of public money on salaries. Where will that stop? I am glad to hear that two more people are being considered for posts and that other staff are being considered. However, to whom will they work? I ask you to consider that in the light of what you and I know, Minister. I do not want you or anybody else to look foolish if the Assembly decides on a much later date for the setting up of the authority.

48. Mr Poots: In the first instance, staff will work to the chief executive designate, who will be their line manager. The chief executive designate will report through the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to the permanent secretary and, ultimately, to me.

49. As for dates, the Department inherited the date of 1 April 2008. We had to work to that date, because it was the date that the education authority —

50. Mr McNarry: You did not have to work to that date. Other Ministers changed decisions in light of RPA; will you not do the same?

51. Mr Poots: Members may have noticed that I phrased my answer in the past tense — the Department was working to that date, and had to do so because if the setting up of the education authority had failed to happen there would be no service for delivering the library authorities. We no longer have to work to the date of 1 April 2008, nor do we have to work to the date of 1 April 2009.

52. If the Committee agrees — and no doubt it will have further hearings on the matter — that a single library authority is the way forward, the Department and the Committee will work through the Bill to get that right. Ultimately, we do not need to be time bound. Nonetheless, the aspirational date of 1 April 2008 should not necessarily be removed: it is an aspiration; it is not set in stone. However, setting a date helps to generate momentum and drive for the Department to see things through to their conclusion. Having said that, meeting the deadline of 1 April 2008 was always going to be very challenging, and I am glad that we are no longer in the situation where we have to meet that date.

53. Nevertheless, we should not necessarily tie ourselves to the date on which the education and skills authority comes into being. The Department of Education has set an end date of 1 April 2009. However, the education and skills authority could be established before that date, although that is unlikely.

54. Once we have brought our work to a satisfactory conclusion, we can set the single library authority up. However, we should do so when we are satisfied that the date is right rather than wait for the education and skills authority to be established.

55. Mr McCarthy: What are the benefits of creating the library authority by March 2008 rather than waiting another year? Would it not be more sensible to wait until a decision has been made about the future of the education and library boards before creating a single library authority?

56. Mr Poots: The decision to establish a single education and skills authority has not changed; the timing has changed. We are still engaged in the same process, even though the timeline has moved.

57. We have commenced work on the issue, and we are no longer under pressure to have it finished by a particular date. Once the problems and their solutions have been identified and addressed, there is no reason for waiting until 1 April 2009 to establish the education and skills authority. I am not insisting on 1 April 2008, which is an aspirational date; however, neither should we tie ourselves to the establishment of the library authority on 1 April 2009. The handover from the five education and library boards to the single library authority should be as seamless as possible, and I want to work with the Committee on how best to achieve that. Neither the Department nor the Committee should get hung up on dates; let us focus on delivering quality library services in the best way possible while looking at the best solutions.

58. Mr P Ramsey: You are very welcome, Minister. The single library authority was chosen as a good basis for creating professional partnership links with statutory, community, health, and education bodies. I agree that the single authority is the best way forward in library provision, but we must ensure that it brings benefits. You mentioned efficiency savings several times, Minister, but the change stems from a desire to improve rather than diminish services, and certainly not from a desire to make wide-ranging efficiency savings as part of the RPA.

59. To increase educational capacity in the community, lifelong learning and informal learning must be provided as part of the move. One in four adults in Northern Ireland has literacy and numeracy difficulties. What output will the new authority give to people and communities that face those difficulties?

60. Mr Poots: It would be appropriate to ask Irene to indicate how she wishes to see progress be made in that area, and how she intends to achieve that.

61. Ms Knox: I agree completely with Mr Ramsey that literacy levels, for example, are a major issue. People sometimes think of libraries as simply places from which to borrow a book. They play an important role in delivering a much wider agenda than that. I believe passionately that libraries have a critical role to play in the development of literacy levels among children and among adults. They have a huge role to play in community regeneration. There is a huge agenda for library services.

62. The benefit of the library authority will be that we can look regionally at how the library agenda is carried through. For example, partnerships can be developed at a strategic level, but services must be delivered locally. A strategic approach will be needed from the centre — the library authority — but local engagement with further education (FE) colleges, local councils and local community sectors will also be required in order to meet local needs. A single library authority will allow strategic partnerships to develop across Departments, the FE sector and the community sector. However, the single authority will also help to develop those policies at a local level.

63. Mr P Ramsey: I have a few other questions. The Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA) and other sources have raised their concerns with me. Library staff recognise the crucial role that libraries provide in delivering social learning and development. However, they fear that the drive to create a single authority will mean a rationalisation of services, a reduction in staff, and a reduction in the static and mobile provisions of the current library service. Can we have a commitment and a guarantee that those services will continue?

64. Another concern is whether there will be rural proofing. We all know the damage that Planning Policy Statement 14 (PPS 14) caused. Its introduction brought about the closure of rural post offices and small rural schools. I hope that people in rural areas are treated equally by being given the same access to libraries as those in urban settings.

65. Equality legislation is also needed to guarantee services for the visually impaired and people with other disabilities. Those are the big concerns outside this Committee room. People want to see a single library authority, as long as it provides a better service, with more social inclusion and high levels of adult participation, which will give them greater confidence and prepare them for work. We want to have libraries across Northern Ireland that are centres of excellence and second to none. However, the proposed legislation does not provide that at present.

66. Mr Poots: I had the opportunity to visit the library in Mr Ramsey’s city, and I was impressed by the numbers of young people who were using it. I was in the library in Coleraine, which offers computer and IT training services to the public. I have been to a range of libraries, and although I have been impressed by the services that are provided, those services are not consistent throughout. I think that the library authority will offer a more consistent service.

67. Inevitably, there will be a reduction in staff numbers at administration level. The purpose of the RPA was to reduce administration and introduce cost savings that could then be used for front-line services. I will not back off from reducing administration costs. My Department will fight its case with the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) to retain those savings, which can then be used to deliver better front-line services.

68. All staff transfers are protected by the provisions of The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE). I do not like the term “natural wastage”, but we will consider giving people who are approaching retirement age, or who wish to retire, the opportunity to do that, and we will not be recruiting new staff to replace them. That is how we will be seeking to reduce administration costs.

69. At an early point, those provisions should deliver savings of £600,000 and, at a later point, should deliver savings of £1·2 million. If we do not deliver those savings, the Department of Finance and Personnel will want to know why, because that was what was set out at the outset. We will work with the staff on all of that. In my view, the trade unions are quite pleased with the idea of a single library authority, provided that they have some guarantees that their staff will be treated fairly.

70. I can again indicate that the trade unions are wholly opposed to the library authority coming under the remit of local government — they can give the reasons for that themselves. I trust that that gives you some comfort about how the staffing issues will be addressed.

71. Mr P Ramsey: Regarding equality issues and rural proofing, I accept the point about the Department of Finance and Personnel. However, we are not going to improve people’s education, and therefore their opportunities for work, by taking that level of money out of the service.

72. Regarding the location of the library authority, I hope that it is not just talk about having subregional forums or panels. I hope that they are going to be structured and that there is a place to ensure that people in the subregions have ownership of that single library authority.

73. Mr Poots: I would love the headquarters to be modest and to house a modest number of staff. Some people talked previously about a chief executive with eight deputies. That will not be the case. There was some confusion with the education authorities. A maximum of three individuals will head the key and corporate services in the authority, and they will not have deputy chief executive status.

74. We all know that rural life has become more difficult in recent years. Planning has played a key role in that, and a lot of services have been removed from our towns and villages. Services such as filling stations, shops, restaurants and pubs, which are associated with local villages, have disappeared.

75. Ultimately, we, as the public sector, need to consider how best to deliver services in rural areas. I want a more joined-up approach with other service providers in those areas. I have said this before: whether it is the local authority that is providing the community centre or the libraries, or it is the GPs who are providing services, if we can get all those services under one roof, there will be a much more sustainable facility.

76. One of the issues that I will want to give direction on to a future chief executive of a single library authority is that we should consider how we can join public services in rural areas up so that they can be delivered at the lowest cost to the public sector but with the highest possible service to the public. That is something that I will be aspiring to do. Rural issues are very close to my heart, and I want to see the library services continuing to be delivered in those areas.

77. The mobile library — which is something that I should declare a personal interest in, as my father uses that service — provides a lifeline to many people who are housebound or who have mobility difficulties. That is certainly a service that I want to see continued and not reduced in any way.

78. Mr Shannon: Minister, you are welcome to the Committee. It is good to see you here. It appears that the chief executive of the proposed library authority, whoever that may be, will have to do much more than an ordinary chief executive.

79. I want to reiterate Mr Ramsey’s question about rural proofing. I welcome the Minister’s response about the importance of the Library Service to the rural community, especially mobile libraries. I hope that that can be built on and encouraged rather than minimised in any way.

80. I have two questions for the Minister. The first relates to discussions with the education and library boards. What discussions have taken place between your Department and the education and library boards, and what has been the initial response from the boards? I know that board members will be attending a meeting of the Committee in a fortnight’s time, but I am curious to know about the Minister’s initial discussions with the boards.

81. Secondly, the Minister rightly indicated that moneys will be saved after the introduction of the new Libraries Bill; that is to be welcomed. However, would it not have been better value for money if that money had been used to keep the current Library Service in place before dismantling it?

82. Mr Poots: I will ask Mr Jack to respond on the level of discussion that has taken place with the education and library boards. I have a caveat; I am not sure what the education boards or authorities would want to say when they appear before the Committee. However, it may be in their interests to retain libraries within the education authority, as it would constitute a larger empire than the two being separated. The Department and the Committee will focus on the delivery of quality library services to the public and on finding the best way to do that.

83. Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): There has been significant ongoing engagement with the education and library boards since the decision to opt for a single regional library authority was announced by direct rule Ministers in 2006. A meeting was held between the then Minister with responsibility for culture, arts and leisure, David Hanson, and the chairpersons of the boards. Since then, regular meetings have taken place between the permanent secretary and the chief executives of the boards, approximately every six months, and there have been more frequent meetings between the Department and the chief librarians and other significant officers in the boards, such as chief finance officers, who will be involved in the implementation.

84. The Department of Education has established structures for the new education and skills authority. As issues will arise that will be in common with the establishment of the library authority, the Department has engaged in those structures along with the education and library boards. The chief executive designate has already initiated a round of meetings with all the boards, and there will be meetings between the Minister and the boards later this week at chairman and chief executive level.

85. Mr Poots: In answer to the second question, there will be set-up costs — identified at some £670,000 — which have been secured to deliver the single library authority. Ultimately, I go back to what I said at the start: we will move when we are ready to move, and that will happen in the most efficient and seamless way possible so that the transfer can take place from the education and library boards to a single library authority with the least impact on staff and services. That timescale should not be set by arbitrary dates — either an early or late date. It should focus on delivering the transfer in the most efficient way possible.

86. Mr Shannon: I welcome the Minister’s response.

87. Mr P Maskey: The work of the Committee is concerned with how best to professionalise the service provided by libraries in the best way possible. Some of the issues that I want to mention have already been touched on, but perhaps they could be discussed in a wee bit more depth. The changes will affect rural and urban areas, and areas of high deprivation. Is anything specific planned for those areas where people may find it difficult to buy books or to have the Internet installed in their homes?

88. The importance of working with chief librarians and their deputies was mentioned. I want to know how exactly that work will enable staff at lower grades to voice their opinions on the Libraries Bill. That is important, because from talking to library staff, it is clear that each knows how best to run their libraries. Therefore, we should not get stuck on talking to chief librarians and the most senior Library Service staff; we must work out how best to consult those who work in the libraries.

89. We will be talking to union representatives in the next few weeks, and we will obviously listen to the views of many of the stakeholders. It is good that we will have the chance to do that. However, I am sure that the Minister is aware that all the groups that will give evidence to the Committee will raise concerns. Therefore we must listen to and process those concerns.

90. I am glad to hear that the front-line services will not be hit. However, we must work out how to professionalise those services to ensure that more people use libraries and to ensure that we use libraries to help education provision generally.

91. Mr Poots: Internet access has provided a lifeline to many in the immigrant community. Many such people who are working in Northern Ireland use the Internet extensively to retain contact with their friends and families. A new single library authority will operate under the principles of targeting social need, which covers all Departments. Working under those principles, my Department will consider what it can do.

92. Irene will explain how she intends to cut through senior management and talk to library staff about how best to deliver services.

93. Ms Knox: The establishment of a new library authority represents a major change process for staff, among whom there is a great deal of concern about what is happening. As I said in my introductory remarks, I want to talk to staff. Library staff know what is required, and their managers should also be aware of those requirements. I have already visited each of the chief librarians, many of whom took me to some of their branch libraries to meet staff. I intend to spend more time getting out and meeting people to find out what they want.

94. It is also important that I set up consultation mechanisms with staff. In addition to doing that through the trade unions, the library authority will provide opportunities for non-union staff to communicate their views on what should happen in the future.

95. Mr Maskey mentioned professionalising the service and its staff. The new authority will be able to examine strategically the training needs of library staff and to work effectively with providers on how to ensure that staff receive the necessary training. That will differ greatly from the training that I received 20 years ago as a librarian; life has moved on, and libraries — and the needs of the people who use them — have changed. The new library authority must ensure that staff have the necessary skills to provide the required level of service.

96. Mr K Robinson: I thank the Minister and his staff for coming this morning. I shall ask a simple question first: how much was bid for the new library authority for 2008-09? If that amount is greater than what the Department currently spends on the library service, by how much? That is the easy question — your starter for 10.

97. The Minister knows that a series of issues will arise. However, I want to discuss structures and mechanisms, which have been mentioned. The feeling of a cold, efficient and remote service is beginning to form in my mind. A library should be a warm and welcoming place for everyone, from the smallest customer who comes in at two or three years of age to the elderly lady or gentleman who tootles in for a book once a week or once a month.

98. I will cite an example of what happened under the former regime. A library was closed down despite being based in a community school on the fringes of a marginalised community. What impact had that on the community? Great opportunities to learn, to introduce children to the joys of reading, to get teenagers in the nearby youth club involved in research and all sorts of programmes, were lost.

99. Can you or Ms Knox assure me that the new system — efficient and cost effective as it may be — will deliver the warm, caring, helpful, developing service that those communities and individuals need?

100. Mr Poots: Having sat with you on the former Committee of the Centre for years, Ken, I was concerned when you said that you would ask a simple question. I knew that that phrase was the preamble to an awkward question. I do not have figures for the Department’s bids for funding for the year 2008-09. I assure members that the Department bids for more funding than it currently receives. That is how we operate; we always ask for more.

101. Mr K Robinson: I am surprised to hear that, Minister. I thought that your Department’s bid would be absolutely accurate and in keeping with the facts.

102. Mr Poots: No. My Department bids for a little more than it would normally anticipate receiving.

103. I cannot tell the Committee that no libraries will ever be closed during my term of office. It would be wrong of me to do that. My Department’s desire is not to close libraries, but to provide a better service to the public. Closing libraries does not help the Department to provide a better service. In the past, certain libraries may have been not well used for particular reasons. In any future discussions on whether to close libraries, the arguments for closure would have to be strong to persuade the Department to take such action.

104. Ultimately, if certain libraries are in difficulty or are not attracting people, we need to look first at why that is happening and see whether the issues can be addressed so as to get more people through the doors of those libraries and ensure that those services are properly utilised. Closure should be the last option. That is the direction that my Department will take.

105. Mr K Robinson: Minister, is Irene going to address my question on the warm, caring ethos of the modern and future library?

106. Mr Poots: Absolutely.

107. Ms Knox: Libraries are a valuable resource for the community. Young babies are brought in by their mothers and are introduced to books at an early stage in life; teenagers come in to do homework; members of immigrant populations come in to use the Internet; and elderly people’s use of libraries may form an important aspect of their contact with the public. Libraries play those roles in communities, and I intend to ensure that they continue to do that for the whole community.

108. Libraries must be welcoming, or people will not use them. No one forces anyone to enter a library. Use of libraries is not compulsory and there is no eligibility or entry requirement to be met. People enter libraries voluntarily, so they must be welcoming.

109. Mr K Robinson: We all agree with you that libraries must be welcoming. The danger, however, is that the members of staff most likely to leave under the new regime are those with the most warm and welcoming attitude. The service will lose those experienced members of staff. Every organisation that modernises and becomes more efficient becomes more remote and less welcoming to its customers, in whatever business it operates. How will you address that potential loss of those staff members who form the core of the system? I do not mean those at the top of the organisation, but rather those whom you meet while walking through the library. If they are cold and remote in their attitude, customers will not want to be in the library and will want to leave.

110. Ms Knox: The Library Service needs to retain front-line staff. Those who work at the front line in branch libraries are those who have an interest in helping the public, and we must retain them. As the Minister said, the central administration needs to be looked at.

111. Staff will always leave the service, through natural wastage, retirement, and so on. However, we must ensure sure that younger front-line staff joining the service understand the type of ethos that should exist in our libraries and that they have the skills to deliver the kind of warm, welcoming service about which the member spoke.

112. Mr K Robinson: Is a training programme in place?

113. Ms Knox: We do not have a training programme in place yet, but there will be one.

114. Mr K Robinson: It worries me that the service will become more like commercial businesses, where customers are welcomed with the question: “What do you want?” The next step on from that is: “We do not have it.”

115. Mr Poots: I encourage Committee members to visit some libraries. I have visited several libraries, and members will find that they are welcoming environments. They are not like the libraries that I remember as a 10- or 11-year-old child, where the atmosphere was quiet and people had to move around silently looking for books. Libraries have moved on, and our larger modern libraries are certainly more vibrant places nowadays. I encourage Committee members to get out there. Mention was made about talking to the staff who deliver front-line services, and it would be useful for the Committee to talk to such staff.

116. Mr K Robinson: This morning, my wife was talking to a librarian in my house, so I am ahead of the Minister on that one.

117. Mr Poots: The Committee will find that those people are keen to have a bigger focus on libraries and on the service that they provide.

118. Mr D Bradley: Maidin mhaith, a Chathaoirligh. Good morning, Minister. Tá céad míle fáilte romhat go dtí an Coiste.

119. Minister, I wrote to you on 25 July 2007 about the consultancy exercise that is being carried out by Deloitte. I had several concerns about that matter, one of which was the unholy haste with which we were proceeding with the single libraries authority, without due knowledge of the costs involved. I was also concerned that the Committee was not properly informed about that particular consultancy and that, to some extent, we were working in the dark.

120. Minister, I thank you for your response, dated 8 August 2007, in which you state that before a decision was taken to create a free-standing library authority, an exercise had been undertaken to identify the hidden corporate costs of delivering the public library service. Paragraph 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Bill states that:

“An exercise to identify the cost of the support services is underway.”

121. Will you comment on the outcome of that exercise and tell us how it has informed the process?

122. Mr Poots: As regards haste, I explained at the start of the meeting that from 19 July 2007, we were operating under a different scenario, which changed the situation considerably. We are happy to work within the new parameters, but we nonetheless seek to deliver as efficiently as possible.

123. We must remember what the Deloitte report is about. I will use an analogy: it is akin to someone deciding to open a shop, choosing the right location, and then bringing people in to see how it will be fitted out. The report is concerned with drilling down to the detail of how corporate services will be delivered.

124. The Chairperson: The report also deals with financial systems, does it not?

125. Mr Poots: It deals with financial systems and gets down to the detail. The big decision is made on the basis of the prevailing evidence; more detail is then needed when making the smaller decisions. The report identifies how we can best deliver financial services. The view now is that we should use the DCAL system to deliver financial services to the other non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) in DCAL’s remit. I think that that was the recommendation from Deloitte, but I may stand to be corrected.

126. Mr Jack: The Department has the Deloitte report and has shared it with the Committee. However, consideration of the report’s recommendations is still at an early stage, and the Department will need to work with the Minister and the chief executive designate to determine the best options. Deloitte has made certain recommendations, and we will need to consider those carefully.

127. Mr D Bradley: Will the Minister assure the Committee that it will be kept informed when the Department is undertaking that work?

128. Earlier, the chief executive designate spoke earlier about the changing role of libraries. Obviously, we live in a changing society. However, many people’s view is that libraries play a passive role in education, lifelong learning, and in the communities in which they are set. Will the Minister and chief executive designate assure the Committee that, under the single library authority, libraries will play a more dynamic and vibrant role in education, in lifelong learning and in their host communities; and will they explain how that is to be achieved?

129. Mr Poots: Earlier, I said that when we visited libraries we found that opportunities were being taken; for example, in IT training. In addition, some libraries were bringing people in for reading sessions while others were placing emphasis on young people who were involved in examinations. I have also said that one of the problems is that there is a degree of “ad hoc-ery” taking place.

130. My Department’s vision is for a flexible and responsive Library Service that provides a dynamic focal point in communities and assists people to fulfil their potential and having a single library authority and a chief executive can bring a focus to lifelong learning and to all of the areas to which Mr Bradley has referred. The Library Service, as it stands, is being delivered through five discrete streams with differing priorities.

131. Ms Knox: I believe passionately that libraries should be a dynamic focal point for local communities. However, that cannot be the case unless they become active participants in the processes within the local community that determine the needs of that community and how services should be delivered. A lot of work has been done by the education and library boards over the past few years. However, we now have an opportunity to take that work a step further by taking a strategic approach across Northern Ireland and starting to build the partnerships that are required at strategic and local levels.

132. In many instances, I believe that libraries should lead the way in delivering a much broader social and educational agenda, and they should examine how they can play a very active role; whether it is in working with local further education colleges, schools, community groups or councils.

133. Lord Browne: I should like to take Dominic’s question a little bit further. One of the main components in delivering a high-quality service is cost, and although the Committee is in possession of quite a lot of documentation from Deloitte, it is difficult to quantify costs when those for corporate services, in particular, have not been identified. I know that there are difficulties because Library Service corporate and support services are part of the general administration of the education and library boards. However, it is very difficult for the Committee to make informed decisions when it is not in possession of the figures for all of the costs.

134. We are in danger of proceeding at a very fast rate. I do not know when the Deloitte report on options for the provision of corporate services will be completed. Is there a date by which that report will be available?

135. We are proceeding rapidly along a particular track, and until decisions on RPA and on the future of the education and library boards are made, it will be difficult for the Committee to make informed decisions.

136. Mr Poots: The Department is waiting for the report from Deloitte. As has been indicated, the costs of delivering corporate services for libraries has been hidden in the larger education and library services pot, and there has been no division as yet. At some point, the cost of providing corporate services will be determined through best assumptions, as opposed to being able to say definitively how much it costs the education and library boards to provide those services to the library sector.

137. The cost of delivering corporate services is significant, and I have no doubt that DCAL’s views on those costs will differ from those of the education and library boards and that there will be quite a debate as to what the costs really are. We will have to drill down to get general agreement on the costs and on how they can be rolled over to the new single library authority.

138. Mr McCausland: In this morning’s presentation, the Minister spoke about a strong subregional structure. What will that mean in practice? Will it mean staff, buildings, or a committee at a subregional level? What powers would such a committee have?

139. Mr Poots: Any subregional structure would have to be based on the number of council areas that are agreed through the RPA and on how DCAL will work with those councils on delivering library services in their areas. In many cases the issue will be about how public services can be delivered in a more joined-up fashion; for example, whether we should have GP surgeries, libraries and community centres under one roof, or have a mix-and-match of services, which would be provided in ways that are not currently available. If services cannot be delivered to the public in a more comprehensive fashion, we will have failed.

140. Community planning will be a key element of RPA and it will play a key role in delivering library services and those provided by local authorities.

141. Ms Knox: As the Minister has said, the establishment of subregional structures will depend on the number of local councils there will be as a result of RPA. If the Library Service is to deliver co-ordinated and joined-up services, we must ensure that that is achieved coterminously with other local planning arrangements. The community planning process will be extremely important in delivering such a co-ordinated approach, and there will need to be structures in the regional library authority that will co-operate and work locally with bodies to ensure that such co-ordination is achieved.

142. That does not mean that large numbers of staff will be involved in co-ordination work. Such staff will be based in libraries, and we will need to use those libraries as the bases for going out into the local community, through a subregional structure, to ensure that we are co-operating with people locally.

143. Mr McCausland: I accept that such staff may be based in library buildings — it makes good economic sense. However, I am not clear about what they will be doing and to whom they will they be answerable. How will local input take place? Will it only come about through community planning or will it take place with the local authority in some other way?

144. Ms Knox: My thinking on these matters is still at an early stage as I have been in post for just two weeks. Through meetings with chief librarians and other members of staff, I am discussing how we can deliver local involvement and engagement; and as part of that process I will be talking to people in the community about how we can establish the subregional structure that I have spoken about. I cannot give the member a detailed answer yet, but I will be looking at the points he has raised immediately and I will be happy to come back to the Committee to speak about them in more detail when my thinking on the matter is clearer.

145. Mr Poots: In our discussions with the Minister of the Environment we considered how best DCAL could work with local authorities to deliver library services in their areas if responsibility for libraries is not to go to councils. We also discussed the type of services that local authorities would wish to provide.

146. The Department has not done anything definitive in that area and is seeking to engage on how best to proceed. We would welcome feedback from the Committee to help us come to a decision.

147. Mr McCausland: I raised the matter because it is not mentioned in the legislation. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw reference to it this morning as I am keen that there should be as much local input as possible, particularly through elected representatives at council level. Has the idea of a subregional structure emerged recently? Is it a new development?

148. Mr Poots: It was something I discussed with Minister Foster, because if we go for a single library authority then we would not want such a body to be remote. Delivering library services at subregional level is important. However, I am not sure about the time frame or whether the Department had been working on it previously.

149. Mr Jack: The Department was keeping a close eye on the discussions about community planning because we saw the process as one in which we would like the library authority to engage proactively. We had discussions about the type of legislation that would confer a duty on the authority to participate in the community planning process. The conclusion of those early discussions was that such provision would more properly be for inclusion in legislation that puts the community planning process in place rather than in legislation concerning libraries. The Department has had local engagement at the forefront of its thoughts from the outset.

150. The Chairperson: We will move to a conclusion, as I am mindful that the Minister has been very generous with his time. I ask Kieran McCarthy and David McNarry for last comments.

151. Mr McCarthy: I want to return to a response that the Minister gave to Pat Ramsey earlier. The question concerned possible cutbacks in staff, or redundancies. I was not happy with the response, because the Minister immediately mentioned senior staff. The age of ageism is past. Senior staff have made an enormous contribution to the Library Service and they should not be put under pressure when change takes place.

152. The Chairperson: If David would make his point now, the Minister could give a composite answer.

153. Mr McNarry: The start-up costs for the so-called small unit for 2007-08 have been estimated at £670,000: £380,000 for staff salaries; £200,000 for consultancy; £85,000 for premises, and £6,000 for support for board members, whatever that entails. It appears that, as the Minister has said, there is cover for the in-year monitoring bid. However, will new contingency cost factors create different figures? In light of the Deloitte consultancy exercise, it is expected that corporate services will require the figures to be revised upwards. What does the Minister now estimate the start-up costs to be? He might need to come back to the Committee with those figures. What impact would delaying a start-up to 2009-10, for example, have on those costs? How confident is the Minister that he can sustain his monitoring bid beyond 2007-08?

154. Mr Poots: The estimated start-up costs are still £670,000. That is the Department’s bid, and it will seek to manage with that sum.

155. Mr McNarry: Is the Minister saying that the costs will be the same in two years’ time?

156. Mr Poots: No. The establishment of the library authority will incur certain costs. However, the start-up costs — the costs of putting in place the structures that are necessary to create the single library authority — are £670,000. The Department has estimated that initial savings from the delivery of those services will be around £600,000 and that they will rise to around £1·2 million per annum. Costs may be incurred in order to reach the point at which such savings can be made.

157. The member asked what the costs would be if the Department were to delay the introduction of the library authority until 2009-10. The Department has no intention to delay until then; indeed, it has indicated that it will progress at the appropriate time. It has, therefore, not worked out the costs of such a delay. If the Department were to decide to hold back for a year, there would be additional costs.

158. Mr McNarry: If you will permit me to do so, Chairman, and with all due respect to the Minister, I must point out that he has also been telling the Committee about appropriate times, and so on, with regard to the stadium. Can he not give us a date? It is difficult for the Committee to work towards an outcome when it does not know when that will occur.

159. Mr Poots: The Department provided a date, which was 1 April 2008.

160. Mr McNarry: The Minister said that the Department could move from that date.

161. Mr Poots: Yes. The Committee’s desire this morning appears to be that the Department should not be bound by the date of 1 April 2008 and that it should consider delaying the matter until 1 April 2009. First, I am not sure that the Department could wait until 2009, given that the education and library boards may not wait until then. Secondly, if its work has been completed and the best solutions have been identified, why should the Department wait until 1 April 2009? Therefore the date of 1 April 2008 is aspirational.

162. On the other hand, why should the Department force itself to do something on 1 April 2008 if it is not ready to do so — just because that date has been set? Ultimately, the Department will move forward when the time is right. The momentum to deliver the new service on 1 April 2008 exists, and that momentum must be maintained.

163. Mr McNarry: That momentum has come from the Minister and his Department since the start. They are rushing the matter.

164. Mr Poots: That momentum existed before I came into office. The establishment of the single library authority was agreed by the Executive, and the appointment of the chief executive designate and the team will help keep that momentum going. I do not see any reason to stop the momentum if that is the desired outcome.

165. With regard to Mr McCarthy’s comments, the Department is not seeking any enforced redundancies. Staff will have an opportunity to take other positions and will also have the option to retire if that is what they wish to do. However, no one will be forced to do so. Ultimately, the Department is seeking to deliver savings in administration, and that will require fewer staff in the administration of library services rather than at the front line.

166. Mr McCarthy: I am glad to hear that senior staff are not to be targeted.

167. The Chairperson: By using the word “senior”, do you mean age, Kieran?

168. Mr McCarthy: Yes.

169. Mr Shannon: Speaking as a 63-year-old, I am relieved to hear it.

170. The Chairperson: I thank the Minister, Colin and Irene for speaking to the Committee. I have no doubt that we will meet again.

171. Mr Poots: Thank you.

13 September 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs Anne Connolly Ms Katherine McCloskey Ms Helen Osborn		Association of Chief Librarians
Ms Elga Logue Mr John McCormick Dr Bob McKee		Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland
Mr John Gray Mr Kirby Porter		Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)

172. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I thank the Association of Chief Librarians for its attendance and I welcome Ms Katherine McCloskey, Ms Helen Osborn and Mrs Anne Connolly. They will be the first set of witnesses to give evidence to the Committee on the Libraries Bill today.

173. Mrs Anne Connolly (Association of Chief Librarians): Good morning and thank you. I am the director of library and corporate services in the North Eastern Education and Library Board (NEELB). I am here in my capacity as chairperson of the Association of Chief Librarians (ACL). I am accompanied by my colleagues Helen Osborn, who is chief librarian of the Western Education and Library Board (WELB), and Katherine McCloskey, who is chief librarian of the Belfast Education and Library Board (BELB).

174. The association, which was established in 1973 by the chief executives, comprises the five education and library boards. As chief librarians, we are the senior officers who work on the steering group, and we are responsible for the development, management and delivery of library services to the public and to schools in Northern Ireland. At present, there are 113 static libraries and 28 mobile libraries, which deliver services to hard-to-reach areas and to people who are housebound. There are also 11 mobile libraries attached to the schools’ library service.

175. Over the past few years, one of the key objectives of the association has been to try to harmonise services across the education and library boards. One of the most successful outcomes has been the establishment of the electronic libraries service, which has provided a single network for all libraries in Northern Ireland. One example of how that has improved customer service is that each customer now has a single library card that they may use in any library in Northern Ireland to access books or use a computer. In addition, a library member may borrow a book from any Northern Ireland library and return it to any other library of their choice. That seamless service has already been established, and Northern Ireland was the first region to achieve it.

176. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s vision is for a flexible and responsive public library service that provides a dynamic focal point in the community and assists people to fulfil their potential. Obviously, the association concurs with that and believes that libraries in Northern Ireland are well on the way to achieving that vision.

177. At the outset, we wish to dispel the myth that libraries are just about issuing books, and we are concerned that, despite the wide range of activities in which libraries engage, the emphasis in measuring performance is still based on the number of books that are issued. We wish to draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that library services currently extend to: the provision of Internet and website-use classes; open-learning centres; study space and homework assistance; activities and support for ethnic minorities and disadvantaged groups; the staging of events and exhibitions, and reading initiatives for all age groups, including the famous Bookstart programme, which is a highly successful initiative that is run in conjunction with Sure Start.

178. Although most of those activities take place in libraries, some are delivered as outreach programmes by library staff in venues across Northern Ireland. We particularly wish to draw attention to the fact that library staff work in places other than libraries to deliver library services.

179. Each year, public libraries in Northern Ireland welcome more than seven million visitors; deal with approximately 1·5 million enquiries; lend approximately 10 million items, and provide access to 1,200 computers with broadband internet access.

180. In the past year, the association has worked closely with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to produce ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, the new policy for the development of public libraries in Northern Ireland. We believe that that policy sets the context for the delivery of a high-quality library service. It is the association’s view that quality of service should be the priority when it comes to establishing the structure for delivering library services in Northern Ireland.

181. To assure a high-quality service that best meets the needs of the customer, several key factors should be taken into account. We strongly feel that library services should be free at the point of delivery and that coterminosity with other service providers should be considered to facilitate community planning and successful partnership working. There should be a single-transfer system for all education and library board employees, and we are in favour of maintaining and developing links with the education sector.

182. Finally, we wish to emphasise that the continued delivery and further development of a high-quality service is dependent on the availability of adequate resources. In that regard, the affordability of a new structure is paramount to the decision-making process.

183. Thank you for your attention.

184. The Chairperson: Thank you, Anne. Members may now ask questions.

185. Mr McCarthy: I thank the association for its presentation and congratulate it on what has been achieved to date. At the end of this exercise, we hope that that work will be enhanced.

186. You said that services should be free at the point of delivery. Clause 6 of the Libraries Bill deals with charges for certain library services. In your submission, you explained that you do not believe that the Bill, as currently drafted, provides enough protection for core library services to remain free of charge. Please explain what you perceive to be the potential problems of not clarifying in the Bill that core services will remain free of charge, and do you have a suggested form of wording that could be added to the Bill to guarantee the provision of free core services?

187. Ms Katherine McCloskey (Association of Chief Librarians): We are concerned because the idea of a free library service is inherent in the public library service. It should be free at the point of delivery. However, clause 6 of the Libraries Bill states: “(1) The Authority may not make any charges for any library services provided by it unless—

(a) the services in question are specified in a scheme of charges approved by the Department …

(2) The scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities.”

188. The existing legislation made it very clear that the library service would be free except for itemised lists of services that libraries could charge for. UK legislation provides for that sort of arrangement. The English legislation and the current Northern Ireland legislation address charges in that way. This Bill’s wording suggests that a broader potential for charging might be implemented, or might be specified, in the future. Existing legislation seems to cover the matter better. We are worried that there is potential to raise funding in the future by increasing library service charges, and that that might be used to augment other services if there was a budget shortfall, for example.

189. Mr Shannon: You have said that the number of people on the board of the proposed authority will not be sufficient to deal with the workload. The changes are being made for several reasons, and one of the advantages of those changes will be that it will maximise savings. At the same time, the continuation of the service is critical. How many members should there be on the board of the library authority and what evidence do you have to suggest that it may not be able to deliver services?

190. You also referred to the mobile library service. I think you mentioned that there are ten mobile libraries, is that correct?

191. Mrs Connolly: There are 11 in schools.

192. The Chairperson: The figure was 28.

193. Mrs Connolly: We are also responsible for the schools’ library service, but under the new legislation that will not be the case.

194. Mr Shannon: I am keen to ask a question based on your experience, Mrs Connolly — and Ms Osborn may wish to answer also. If you could do one thing to improve the mobile library service, what would that be?

195. Mrs Connolly: We have debated the size of the authority at length. However, our experience is based on dealing with library committees. Currently, the library committee within each education and library board comprises between 12 and 15 people. If the library authority is to recruit people who are interested in library services and would be interested in regularly attending meetings, such people might be very busy already and might have to drive long distances. The authority will therefore need to recruit around 20 members to get a quorum and ensure that local and regional interests are looked after.

196. There is also the view that being a board member — as some Committee members, being board members, will know — is not just about being on a steering group or governing body; it is also about assisting in other committees. The association expects that the library authority will have to have an audit committee and a finance committee. Therefore the smaller the number of people involved, the smaller the pool from which the authority can draw. It will be asking busy people to attend a lot of meetings.

197. Ms Helen Osborn (Association of Chief Librarians): Mr Shannon is right to suspect that I would like to answer the question about mobile libraries. The mobile library service is extremely important in rural areas, but it is also important in city areas, particularly areas of targeting social need.

198. There are two ways in which the mobile library service could be improved. First, it could provide more outreach activities. Typically, a mobile library pulls up in a village or a housing estate and stays for an hour or two. During that time people come on board and borrow books, and, in some places, they also use the Internet. That mobile library would be staffed by one person. We would like to be able to provide the same outreach activities as branch libraries, such as playgroup visits, storytelling sessions, local history sessions, IT taster sessions — the full gamut of library services. However, additional staffing is required for that. The Western Education and Library Board has been fortunate to have had external funding to pilot such a service. Outreach activity is important if people are to experience the full benefits of a library service.

199. Secondly, there could be greater scope for partnership working. Recently, a scheme was piloted in a rural part of the Western Education and Library Board area in which post-office services were provided on the mobile library while a sub-post office was being rebuilt. It is important that such joined-up strategic partnerships are considered. That was a great pilot project, and it worked well for local people and for both services. However, the ideal scenario would be to have strategic partnerships with other organisations serving rural areas, using customised vehicles to meet the needs of the local community and provide the full range of services.

200. Mr D Bradley: I share your concern about clause 6(2) of the Bill, which relates to charges. It seems to be granting power to vary charges according to locality and even according to individuals. That seems to partially defeat the aim of having a single authority. However, the explanatory and financial memorandum claims that the approach in clause 6: “retains the approach of the Education and Libraries Order but simplifies the provisions.”

201. Do you agree?

202. Secondly, what linkages should there be between the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority? How would those be reflected in service delivery?

203. Ms McCloskey: Members of the association are nervous that the previous legislation stated that libraries would be free at the point of delivery, except for certain services that were listed. Why remove that provision? It was clear which services would be charged for. If libraries are to be free at the point of delivery, and there is no intention to raise or to make extra charges, why change the legislation? It has worked well for many years. Such a provision is not in the UK legislation, and we, as an association, are nervous that it may open the door to further charges.

204. Mr D Bradley: Would an itemised list of charges be helpful?

205. Ms McCloskey: It would probably make association members happier if potential charges were clearly listed.

206. Mr D Bradley: Can you give us examples?

207. Ms McCloskey: If a library provides items, such as a photocopies or book lists, which then become the properties of a person, that person would be charged for the items. In the previous legislation, there was a list, which specified the items and services that could be charged for. I would be very nervous if such a list were not included in the Bill. The phrasing could be taken from UK legislation or it could be just as it was in the previous legislation — why change it?

208. Mr D Bradley: What form of linkage do you think there should be between the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority, and how should that be reflected in service delivery?

209. Ms Osborn: We believe that there are three key areas in which it will be important for public libraries and education to work together. One is the schools’ library service. Currently, we manage both the public library service and the schools’ library service, which has a number of benefits, one of which is financial. We share premises, IT systems, members of staff, stock contracts, and so on. More importantly, the arrangement enables us to provide a holistic service to children and young people whether at home or at school, and the two services work closely together on extended schools information, literacy, the revised curriculum; all of the key education agendas.

210. Early years education is another important area, and public libraries have always done a great deal with pre-school children using programmes such as Bookstart. Early years education is now the responsibility of the Department of Education, which makes it even more important that libraries and education work together in that area.

211. Public libraries have a great deal to contribute to literacy and lifelong learning. It will be important that the linkages between the education and skills authority and the library authority will be in place at the strategic and operational levels. Our concern is that organisations, during periods of change, or when they are being created, tend to be internally focused. Therefore, it will be extremely important that the links are maintained. It will also be important that all subregional structures in the new library authority will be reflected in the education and skills authority and in the councils so that community planning becomes another device for joined-up working.

212. The Chairperson: Mrs Connolly, would you give a composite answer to the next questions, which will be from Mr McCausland and Mr Ramsey?

213. Mr McCausland: There are two points on which I require clarification. What potential difficulties are there for the transfer of staff, particularly if the single library authority does not start at the same time as the single education authority? Secondly, and you have raised questions about this matter; do you think that the Department is overestimating the savings that can be made?

214. Mr P Ramsey: I would like to acknowledge the contribution that the association is making to lifelong learning. Given that the Minister said during the last Committee meeting that efficiency savings on pay have been projected at almost £1·5 million, how will you be able to provide an enhanced service in lifelong learning in educational centres of excellence with reduced resources? You are saying that you need additional resources. How will you be able to provide the same level of service, given that in Northern Ireland, one in four adults has low levels of literacy and numeracy? How will you effect change?

215. Mrs Connolly: I will answer Mr McCausland’s question first. Many of our staff work across public libraries and school libraries, and currently all of them are education and library board staff. Our concern is that if public library services move first, we will have to determine who our public library staff are and get a transfer scheme in place for them in advance of the creation of the education and skills authority. More importantly, opportunities for them to apply for other posts, to which they are entitled as education and library board staff, would be removed because they would no longer be part of the RPA-affected group.

216. Staff are already quite stressed and worried about their jobs. We would prefer the organisations to move together. At present, we are managing people in both sections. We believe that there should be a clean break. People would then be able to see the various opportunities and apply for the jobs that suit their future needs. It is a people issue.

217. Katherine McCloskey will answer the question on funding.

218. Ms McCloskey: The question was on what we believe the savings will be. Paragraph 13 of the explanatory and financial memorandum states: “Unifying five separate library services will, in time, lead to efficiency savings”.

219. The memorandum goes on to quote savings of £600,000 in 2009-10, rising to £1·2 million. There is no specific indication as to where those savings will be made, apart from unifying the services and reducing staff. We do know the current budget for the five library services. Over the past few years, my colleagues and I have been working to reduce our staffing levels because of reductions in funding for the Library Service. Indications are that the new library authority will have a budget of £30 million, which is not a lot more than what we are running the service on at present — and we are struggling. The Belfast Education and Library Board will face a shortfall of £750,000 next year. We do not feel confident that savings will be made without swingeing cuts.

220. There is some indication that we have a large number of senior and middle managers. I have 25 staff, classified as professional librarians and managers, for all of Belfast, covering 20 branch libraries, the schools’ library service and the central reference library. We are not awash with staff. The indications are that the new library authority will struggle to provide even the level of service provided at present with the stated budget. We cannot understand where the savings will come from, and that is worrying. Northern Ireland deserves a quality library service. I have spent my life in the library service. Northern Ireland has an excellent library service and the people of Northern Ireland deserve a high-quality, well-funded service that will provide not just excellent community libraries and mobile libraries, but will be able to fund reference and research collections and support the wonderful local studies and collections that exist throughout Northern Ireland.

221. The Chairperson: Have Mr Ramsey’s questions been answered?

222. Mrs Connolly: You may have picked up some of the answers. We are wholly behind ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, which is the Department’s vision for the future of library services. However, as has been rightly said, there is much more to libraries than issuing books. Many areas need to be developed, and we are not convinced that the money is available to do that. We have all been in difficult positions, as members will know. In making cuts in our board area, some of our learning centres have fallen by the wayside, as we cannot afford to fund them.

223. Mr P Ramsey: Do you believe that cutbacks are imminent? That will entail more than job losses.

224. Mrs Connolly: Who knows? The North Eastern Education and Library Board has already offered premature retirement to as many people who want it, and it does not have many more people to let go. The funding issue and the development of services are major concerns. In the past, we have asked the Department of Education and the Department for Employment and Learning to fund areas that we believed fell under their umbrella. The money that we get from Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is for the core library service. However, we have not had any success in getting funding from other Departments.

225. The Chairperson: Thank you, Anne, Katherine and Helen, for coming along this morning.

226. The next witnesses to come before the Committee are from the Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals (CILIP). Following CILIP’s five-minute overview of its written submission, members will have a chance to ask questions. I will try to give preference to members who did not question the first set of witnesses. Dr Bob McKee will lead the presentation. Witnesses, you are all welcome, and the Committee is looking forward to hearing your evidence.

227. Dr Bob McKee (Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland): Good morning. My colleagues, Elga Logue, John McCormick and I represent CILIP. In my allotted five minutes, I want to cover three areas: some background information on CILIP, our position on the proposals on the way forward for public libraries in Northern Ireland, and comments on the draft legislation.

228. CILIP was formerly known as the Library Association, and some members may know it by that name. It was established about 130 years ago and received the royal charter in 1898. It is long-established as the professional and regulatory body for the library information sector across the UK.

229. We are responsible for maintaining the register of qualified practitioners for all parts of the library and information spectrum across the UK, not only public libraries. We provide opportunities for networking, professional development and advocacy on professional issues. It is worth saying that, in Northern Ireland, we have consistently worked across all divides for more than 30 years. A North/South liaison committee has held an annual conference for 30-plus years, without fail. That commendable record is due more to my two colleagues than to me.

230. We form a community of about 35,000 people who are engaged in library and information work across the UK, of whom about 12,500 are on the register of qualified practitioners, and, of those, about 3,200 work in public libraries. Therefore, we can speak from an authoritative base. We have been involved throughout the current sequence of initiatives on public library policy in Northern Ireland.

231. I was involved in the work that led to the original ‘Tomorrow’s Libraries’ report in 2002. Recently, I was a member of the appointments panel that recruited a chief executive designate for the new library authority. We have submitted evidence at every stage of the consultation process and have provided assistance to DCAL officials, both in their work on policy development and in their early preparations for the new authority.

232. We strongly agree with the role and vision of public libraries that is outlined in the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ report. We welcome the introduction of a published set of standards, which is in the annex to the report. We welcome the commitment to the equitable distribution of resources and the consequent commitment to equity in library provision across Northern Ireland. We welcome the establishment of a new library authority, which provides an opportunity to strengthen the Library Service in Northern Ireland by building on the collaborative work that has already been carried out across the current five education and library boards. The Committee heard reference to that during the previous submission.

233. It seems highly appropriate that the new political Administration in Northern Ireland should, as one of its first acts, enact legislation to strengthen the Library Service, because libraries have a role to play in any civilised society in relation to opportunity, equity, democracy, and human rights. For that reason, we are glad to be here.

234. Most of the points that we want to make on the legislation are contained in our written submission, but I want to highlight just a few. The duty of the new library authority that is set out in the Bill should refer explicitly to the set of standards of provision that citizens can expect. The principle of the Library Service being free at the point of use, which is safeguarded in the Bill, should be strengthened by making it clear that the scheme of charges cannot include charging for any core elements of the service. That requires definition.

235. We doubt the validity of the specific levels of efficiency savings and start-up costs that are set out in the explanatory and financial memorandum. There is a real danger that a declaration of such efficiencies will cause the new authority to be born into a negative climate of cutbacks, rather than a positive climate of service development.

236. Although the memorandum refers to start-up costs, there is no explicit reference to transition costs, such as the inevitable costs of redundancies. There must be more clarity about where those figures come from and what they mean.

237. My next point has already been made by the previous witnesses. The present link with education provides a close collaboration between libraries and schools. That must not be lost. A framework agreement between the new library and education authorities will be necessary.

238. I wish to draw the Committee’s attention to a point that is not included in our submission, which concerns the provision of advice to the Northern Ireland library authority. Legislation across the water makes provision for a body that used to be called the Library Advisory Council; its name has now been changed, intelligently, to the Advisory Council on Libraries. There might be some value in the Committee considering whether a similar advisory role should be enshrined in Northern Ireland legislation. That has been very helpful across the water.

239. That concludes our introductory comments.

240. Lord Browne: CILIP’s submission states that it is concerned that the start-up allocation of £670,000 may not be sufficient. Please explain why.

241. Dr McKee: We have seen the figure, but not how it was worked out. I mentioned in the submission that we need to know whether that figure includes transition costs and the inevitable costs of the transfer of undertakings and redundancies.

242. Lord Browne: The Committee understands that the new education and skills authority will not be in place until March 2009. Will there be any risks for CILIP if the new library authority is not established by April 2008?

243. Dr McKee: There is no threat to CILIP, because it is an independent body. However, we act in the public interest, which is why we are registered as a charity. There would be damage to the public interest if there were to be continuing uncertainty about the future of libraries in Northern Ireland. What is in the public interest is the orderly transition from the present situation to the new arrangement. We need clarity about that transition and its timetable.

244. Mr K Robinson: I thank the witness for his precise and concise opening remarks. In your submission, Dr McKee, you stated that there needs to be a clearer explanation in clause 4(8) as to what constitutes commercial activities. What are the problems with the way commercial activities are defined in the Bill? Is the definition that is contained in the Bill too broad or too narrow?

245. Dr McKee: We discussed that question immediately prior to the meeting. Clause 4(4) contains a helpful safeguard, namely that commercial activities are permitted so long as they do not interfere with the primary duties of the authority. The subsection that you referred to relates to specific types of commercial activities — the provision of services, and so on — and there is nothing wrong with that. Our problem is with the culture that that may create. Will success be judged using commercial, entrepreneurial, income-generating criteria, or, on social and educational criteria, as it ought to be?

246. Mr K Robinson: I see the danger of the “burger and a book” syndrome creeping in. Is that what you mean?

247. Dr McKee: Absolutely.

248. Ms Elga Logue (Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals Ireland): We asked whether a library that is situated in a highly populated area and that runs many activities might be judged on profit-making, as opposed to the quality of service it offered.

249. Mr K Robinson: Compared with a library in a rural situation?

250. Ms Logue: Exactly. We would not want to see a situation in which profit-making jeopardises other libraries, which may be doing tremendous work, but may not be making the same profits because of their location, perhaps in marginalised areas. That, however, does not mean that they are not good libraries — they may be doing wonderful work. The question is whether one assesses quality on the basis of issue figures, or on user satisfaction.

251. Mr K Robinson: I shall play devil’s advocate for a moment. In answer to Wallace’s question a moment ago, you said that the allocation for start-up costs would not cover those costs. However, if the opportunity of commercial input arises, the question becomes whether you would sell your soul to keep the system afloat, or keep the system pure because of the end benefits that we all want the library system to produce for us.

252. Mr McCormick: There is no reason why we cannot have both. Commercial activity for libraries per se is not wrong. Everyone wants to generate some money. We worry that libraries would be expected to become profit-making operations. That would be very difficult to do in many ways.

253. Mr K Robinson: For geographical and other reasons?

254. Mr McCormick: Yes.

255. Mr Brolly: You made an issue of the absence of the words “efficient and effective” and “comprehensive and efficient”. How important is that wording? Surely the efficiency and effectiveness of the Library Service will be down to those people who will eventually be given the job of running the libraries?

256. Dr McKee: It is very dangerous for things to be implicit in legislation and not explicit. The inclusion in the Bill of the words “comprehensive and efficient” would serve two purposes: it would align the Bill with legislation across the rest of the UK — and there is a value in that — and it would make explicit two requirements that you might think are implicit, but, hey, people change. The inclusion of the word “comprehensive” means that the service has to be inclusive of everyone — people with disabilities, people living in rural areas, and so on. That could get lost if the word is not in legislation for people to see. The word “efficient” is all about public service reform. Again, one would expect efficiency — that is understood — but it would be nice for it to be required in legislation.

257. Mr D Bradley: You mentioned the importance of the continuing close collaboration between libraries and schools. How do you think that the schools’ library service should be delivered in the new emerging context?

258. Dr McKee: That is a difficult one for me, because we are looking at this matter as a professional body, not in terms of the local operational detail. However, I listened as you asked the same question to the previous group of witnesses. It seems that there is a very clear understanding of what a schools’ library service is, and of the public libraries’ role and the schools’ role in that service. It would not, therefore, be impossible to construct a framework agreement between the two new authorities that would enshrine that. That framework could then be delivered among individual libraries and schools.

259. Mr McCarthy: Should a specific or stronger form of words be included in clause 6 so that the authority cannot charge for core services?

260. Dr McKee: Yes.

261. Ms Logue: Yes. Membership of public libraries has always been free. All the wonderful activities that go on in the library every day — storytelling, book clubs, and so on — are never charged for. In many ways, that is what makes a library service a quality service that reaches out to all groups — one that promotes social inclusion. The Bill should clearly define the core services that will remain free.

262. Dr McKee: One could extract a list of core services and write it down — I did that on the plane this morning. If a scheme of charges can be written down, a list of core services can too.

263. The Chairperson: I will allow Members to ask one other question, if anyone wants to take this opportunity to do so.

264. Mr K Robinson: The previous presentation touched on the issue that I wish to raise, and the Committee discussed it last week as well. In this new, wonderful world in which everything will be streamlined and reorganised and money will be saved, and so forth, individuals with tremendous experience may well find themselves in a position whereby they want to leave the service — or it may be advantageous to the service to see them leave. How do you cope with that experience gap? How do you fill it so that the service and delivery are not diluted?

265. Dr McKee: That is a central issue for us as the professional body, given that our job is professional development. I mentioned a figure of 12,500 qualified practitioners earlier, and less than 100 of them work in Northern Ireland. Thus, the gap already exists here. That workforce developmental issue has to be addressed at some level, and I do not think that the authority could address it unaided.

266. The Chairperson: I thank the CILIP team, Dr McKee, John and Elga for their contribution.

267. We now welcome Kirby Porter and John Gray from the Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland) (LISC (NI)). They will give a five-minute overview of their written submission and then they will take questions from members.

268. Mr Kirby Porter (Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)): I thank the Committee for inviting us here today.

269. LISC (NI) is a membership organisation that represents the main library providers in Northern Ireland. Members include public libraries, university and college libraries, and even libraries in the voluntary sector. Its two basic roles are to advise the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure on matters pertaining to libraries, and to engage in co-operative activities throughout the library world in Northern Ireland in order to advance libraries in all forms.

270. Three projects in which you may be interested will give you a flavour of the work that LISC does. One is that it is the Northern Ireland partner for Newsplan, which is a project to collect, preserve and make available newspapers throughout the United Kingdom and Ireland.

271. The second is Inspire NI, which is a project to widen access to all libraries, on a managed basis, to anyone in the Province. There are several other similar projects, including the Northern Ireland Publications Resource (NIPR), the funding for which comes through LISC. That project’s aim is to collect all material published in Northern Ireland and publications that relate to Northern Ireland.

272. As an organisation, LISC broadly welcomes the decision to create a single, strategic, library authority. However, our submission includes caveats which are, basically, the same as the concerns that have been raised today. They relate to the service’s comprehensiveness, charging, and the costs relating to its start-up and continuing functioning. In broad terms, the creation of a single library authority is a useful step forward for libraries and one that should be commended.

273. The Chairperson: I will offer Committee members the chance to ask questions — unless John has anything to add.

274. Mr John Gray (Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)): I have nothing to add. Kirby has said everything that I would wish to say.

275. Mr Shannon: You indicated your support for the single library service. In paragraph 3(d) of LISC’s written submission, it is stated that a single library authority:

“should ensure the development of specialist services and expertise not currently within the scope of five separate education and library boards”

and

“could enable more effective marketing of the service.”

276. In the final sentence of the same paragraph it is stated that a single library authority could:

“afford greater capacity to attract significant levels of external funding.”

277. I am keen to learn from where you might attract that external funding. Is it from independent business? Is it from other Departments? Why do you refer to the greater capacity to attract significant levels of external funding? If you can attract significant levels of external funding, we will be very keen to learn how you can do that, as, I am sure, will the Executive. However, I digress. I just want to get your opinion on the matter of external funding.

278. Mr Gray: I shall answer that question. It is not provable in advance, but a single library authority, with a higher profile and a high level of focused leadership, is more likely to achieve major strategic partnerships with other bodies that can, essentially, bring funding to the table. Those could include anything from public-private partnerships to such bodies as the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Big Lottery Fund, or other service providers. I suspect that smaller services have less strategic capacity to engage in that type of work.

279. Mr Shannon: You mentioned partnerships, as did one of the previous deputations. Partnerships are all very well, but have initial discussions taken place with any potential partners? I am keeping a note — I realise that you said that it is not provable.

280. Mr Gray: The question that you ask is a more of a commentary on the difficulties of the current environment than the possibilities of a single library authority.

281. LISC (NI) is one example of the possibilities that exist for co-operation on a Province-wide basis, in that the five education and library boards, which provide library services, and all the other library-interested parties in Northern Ireland co-operate in partnership on a range of beneficial projects. Those projects have been taken forward at a little extra public cost, but they deliver more than the sum of the parts of the organisations concerned.

282. The Chairperson: In your submission, you state that the number of board members in the library authority — a maximum of 14 — may not be sufficient to deal with the workload or be able to reflect the broad range of library users. Would you elaborate on that?

283. Mr Gray: LISC (NI) is aware of the need for caution to avoid unwieldy bodies, but is also concerned that library services are spread widely across Northern Ireland and that the board will have to have specific strategic expertise available in a range of fields. The board will also have to provide for adequate representation of age and gender spectrums and issues such as the rural/urban divide. That tends to suggest that a board comprising 14 or 15 members may be a bit tight. One option would be to consider the possibility of giving the board the provision to appoint an advisory council. There is no provision in the legislation for that, but it might help. Our thinking, without being dogmatic about the matter, is that the board should have more than 14 or 15 members.

284. Mr Porter: LISC (NI) is particularly concerned that, during the first years of the new library authority, when a lot of strategic work will have to be done, a board comprising 14 members may not be sufficient to provide the required expertise. Currently, between 50 and 60 people are involved in the library committees of the education and library boards, so having a board with 14 members would be a considerable reduction. As John Gray says, LISC (NI) is not suggesting a board of 30 or 40 people; we are asking for a modest reconsideration to ensure that the balance is correct.

285. Mr K Robinson: In a corporate and individual sense, local government has been excluded from this process, presumably due to the fear that councillors may burn or eat books. Given that councillors can accurately reflect the feeling of communities, is there a place for a local government presence on an extended board? If larger local authorities are created, the role of councillors will become more apparent.

286. Mr Gray: The difficulty is that the number of local authorities under the review of public administration is unclear. If I am right, there will be a minimum of eight councils, but there are likely to be more. If that is so, it will not be possible for every local authority to be represented on the new library authority; there will have to be another mechanism. Local government representation may have to be organised through the Northern Ireland Local Government Association. However, adoption of the idea for an advisory council would provide scope for more local input.

287. Mr D Bradley: Could, and should, the Northern Ireland library authority deliver schools’ library services?

288. Mr Porter: There is no doubt that, given how the schools’ library service is delivered, a partnership arrangement — at the very least — with the public library service is required. However, should the public library service, rather than the education and skills authority, deliver the schools’ library service? It would be difficult for school libraries to realise their full potential were they not part of the educational framework.

289. The Libraries and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland) has done a great deal of work to try to improve school libraries’ efficiency. However, the standard of that efficiency varies, and depends on the level of support that a head teacher gives to his or her library. If school libraries were seen to be removed further from the education service, they would lack the necessary credibility to make progress. Therefore, it is probably best that school libraries remain within the ambit of the education service.

290. Mr McCarthy: Do you believe that clause 6 should include a specific form of words that would not permit the library authority to charge for services?

291. Mr Porter: Undoubtedly, it is essential that core services are protected in legislation to prevent that from happening in future.

292. The Chairperson: Kieran, you seek stronger wording in that clause.

293. Mr McCarthy: I have undoubtedly made that point this morning.

294. Mr Porter: Where possible, the tendency is to charge for services. The temptation in future will be that, if something can be charged for, at some stage that issue will be raised, and charges will be introduced. By definition, that is the way in which things work — if a charge can be levied, it eventually will be.

295. The Chairperson: I thank Kirby and John for coming along this morning, and for sharing their wisdom with the Committee.

20 September 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms Adrienne Adair Ms Joan Christie Mr Stanton Sloan		South Eastern Education and Library Board
Mr Barry Mulholland Ms Helen Osborn Mr Bill Reilly		Western Education and Library Board
Mr David Cargo Mrs Rosemary Frawley Mr David Jess		Belfast Education and Library Board
Mrs Marie Donnell Mr Wilbert Mayne Ms Kathleen Ryan		Southern Education and Library Board

296. The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McNarry): Good morning. On behalf of the Committee, I welcome the witnesses. You have been asked to provide a five-minute overview of your written submission. I am compelled to ask that you keep within those five minutes, after which Committee members will ask questions. For the record, I am also obliged to ask that you answer the questions succinctly; I am sure that you will do that. May we call you by your first names?

297. Ms Joan Christie (South Eastern Education and Library Board): Please do.

298. Deputy Chairman, thank you for the invitation to attend this Committee meeting. We are grateful for the opportunity. In our submission, we outlined the background of the role of the South Eastern Education and Library Board (SEELB) in the Library Service. We are on a tight timetable, so I will avoid repeating that information. I will outline the six points that were highlighted in that submission.

299. First, our view is that a single library authority will provide a unique opportunity for the Library Service in the future. If it cannot be under the remit of the education and skills authority, we are happy that it will be a single, free-standing organisation; we support that concept. That said, libraries have always had, and should continue to have, a close relationship with education; that is a vital partnership that we wish to continue.

300. Secondly, the SEELB highlights the community planning and partnerships that the Library Service already has, which it hopes will be developed and will grow as the new authority develops. The Library Service provides a local service to local communities. There are several other bodies, including the new education and library bodies, the health boards and various other organisations, with which the library service should be coterminous.

301. Thirdly, the board is conscious that, at present, the setting up of the new library authority is less than six months away. The establishment of the education and skills authority has been deferred until 2009. That throws up particular difficulties for the Library Service in some areas. The board is anxious that any changes must be carried out smoothly and that staff should be the focus of attention.

302. Fourthly, the board has outlined its view on the free library service in its submission, and welcomes the opportunity to do so again. We consider a free library service to be vital. Recently, someone wondered whether the chap who created libraries, if he were alive today, would have been able to set up free libraries. The board, however, already has them and considers it vital to keep them.

303. Fifthly, I have already mentioned the relationship with the schools’ library service, which is vital. At present, the schools’ library service comes under the umbrella of libraries. The board understands that that will change under the new library authority. However, maintaining that relationship and working together with the schools’ library service is vital.

304. Finally, I have kept the most important point until the end, which is funding. The board supports the concept of the new library authority; it wants to be involved in it. However, we put our hands up and say that it must be funded properly — it must not be set up on a shoestring. The board strongly urges that the resources that the new library authority needs must be made available.

305. If there are any questions, I am inclined to point towards the two experts on either side of me. I apologise for not introducing them properly. Stanton Sloan is the new chief executive of the South Eastern Education and Library Board. He was appointed during the past month. Adrienne Adair is the assistant chief librarian. Unfortunately, the chief librarian is on holiday and is unable to be here. I am one of the commissioners. The chairman is also on holiday and, therefore, sends his apologies to the Committee for being unable to attend.

306. The Deputy Chairperson: I congratulate Mr Sloan on his appointment. If my question is unfair, you do not have to answer it: your predecessor was seconded, so where does that leave the board? In my understanding, if someone is on secondment, it means that they can be returned to their previous post. However, you are now the chief executive.

307. Mr Stanton Sloan (South Eastern Education and Library Board): I am also appointed on that basis. However, with the support and agreement of the commissioners, I will continue to act as the chief executive. If circumstances change, they will be dealt with as and when they arise. At present, however, there have been no significant effects on the board. Matters are progressing as usual.

308. The Deputy Chairperson: OK. That is good to know. Thank you.

309. Mr McCarthy: I thank the board for its presentation. Ms Christie mentioned a free library service. The Committee agrees with her on the need for that. Is the board content, therefore, that the wording of clause 6 of the Libraries Bill is strong enough to guarantee the continuation of a free library service?

310. Ms Christie: In our submission, we suggested that stronger wording is necessary. I will ask Adrienne to deal with that.

311. Ms Adrienne Adair (South Eastern Education and Library Board): The board would prefer that the wording of the legislation were much stronger in order to clarify that there will be a free library service at the point of use. There is concern that if budgets were to be reduced in the future, charges could be applied. The South Eastern Education and Library Board is keen to ensure that minimum charges are applied.

312. Mr McCarthy: That is fine; thank you.

313. Mr Shannon: You are very welcome, and congratulations, Stanton, on your new post.

314. In your submission to the Committee, you expressed some concern about the savings predicted for 2009-10 and through to 2011. You said that savings were unlikely to come from reducing management costs alone. First, what brought you to that point of view? Secondly, where do you think savings can be made?

315. Mr Sloan: Perhaps I could turn that question around somewhat. The South Eastern Education and Library Board supports a single library authority, but is concerned that it is properly funded.

316. We have some specific concerns. For example, there will not be five chief librarians, so there will be redundancy costs. Recent reports from Deloitte examined estates management, human resources, IT and finance systems. Mr Shannon’s question is on the mark and would be better directed to the new authority. The SEELB would like to be convinced, and we simply want to know how all those factors have been taken into account, and we are asking the Department to ensure that, when the authority is set up, it delivers a high-quality service and is adequately funded. We want to be assured that all those factors have been taken into consideration.

317. Mr Shannon: You are not convinced about how savings can be made. Do you feel that any savings can be made?

318. Mr Sloan: The SEELB’s experience of other amalgamations, albeit of schools, is that the first and second years require investment to achieve savings in the longer term. Therefore, we suggest that there may need to be considerable investment in the first two years to ensure savings later on. We want to be assured — as will the Committee — that sufficient funds will be available for that investment.

319. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you, Jim. That was an important question and response.

320. Mr K Robinson: My question about your submission is similar to Jim Shannon’s. You have asked the Department to clarify how the start-up costs and the estimated efficiencies have been calculated. What are your underlying concerns about that, and do you think that the Department has underestimated or overestimated the costs and savings?

321. Mr Sloan: That follows on from Mr Shannon’s question. I received and read the Deloitte reports only in the last few days. On the basis of those, the library authority will have to address certain things. There is potential for savings. For example, the SEELB is close to Belfast and has a library at Cregagh, which is close to another library further down the Cregagh road.

322. To return to the point, the Department is underestimating the costs and overestimating the savings. We pointed that out in our submission. We are simply asking the Department, if it is going ahead with its plan, to give us the details, so that we can be assured that the service is properly funded. That is our simple intention: to ensure that there is proper funding and that the level of funding is clear and transparent.

323. Mr K Robinson: You think that the Department has overestimated one sector and underestimated the other?

324. Mr Sloan: The initial estimate of savings is probably too high, and the start-up costs may be underestimated. However, we are simply asking the questions. The answers must come from a more detailed response from the Department.

325. Mr P Ramsey: There are several areas of concern, which your presentation clearly highlighted. What is your current budget for library provision in the SEELB? Can you tell us what the costs for staffing are and what revenue there is?

326. I have raised literacy and numeracy problems in Northern Ireland, because one-in-four people have such difficulties. The Department of Education provides money for numeracy and literacy education and for early-years programmes. Will that money be lost, or do you see the early-years programmes and help for those less skilled in numeracy and literacy continuing?

327. Ms Adair: Our budget this year is £5•235 million, and approximately 68% of that goes towards the staff costs that are required to run our library services — we have 24 static libraries. We work closely with Bookstart and Sure Start to deliver books and services to young children. Professional librarians work across groups of libraries to deliver those programmes. Those librarians devise content, and our staff on the ground deliver programmes to improve literacy, numeracy and computer literacy. As Mr Sloan has said, the SEELB does not know what the budget and structures of the new service will be, so the board does not know whether it will deliver those programmes in the future. However, the board currently delivers those programmes.

328. Mr P Ramsey: Are there indications from the Department of Education that the process will lead to links between the Department and the library authority?

329. Ms Adair: We hope that formal structures will be set up so that we can link closely with education, as the education and library boards do currently. We also run the schools’ library service, which runs programmes for literacy, reading and reading exploitation. However, we need formal structures.

330. Mr P Ramsey: That point should be noted for future reference.

331. The Deputy Chairperson: That is a good point. You said that you do not know what the budget for the library authority will be.

332. Ms Adair: We know that the budget will be £30 million for the entire Northern Ireland library authority, but we do not know what the structures will be or how the new service will be delivered.

333. The Deputy Chairperson: You do not know what the carve-up will be — that is important.

334. Mr D Bradley: My question concerns the link between the education and skills authority, and the library authority. I notice from the Department of Education’s policy papers on the review of public administration (RPA) that it envisages a service-level agreement between the library authority and the education and skills authority. What do you see that agreement encompassing?

335. Mr Sloan: That relates to Mr Ramsey’s question. Libraries play a significant part, as do youth services, in the areas of literacy and numeracy. New literacy and numeracy strategies will shortly be launched, and there is every indication that the early-years programmes will continue. The schools’ library and education service will work closely on that; the SEELB has recently received an additional allocation from the Department, and it is working, through its education and library sides, to develop those initiatives. Support for those initiatives will be available through the schools’ library service, and that will be part of the education and skills authority.

336. Literacy problems do not only affect children up to the age of 16 or 19. Mr Ramsey mentioned adult literacy, and we need to ask bodies such as libraries and education associations, and the people who work in them, what we need to do in that area.

337. Any service-level agreement that the library authority will have will probably relate to areas where cover is needed — for example, estates management. Estates will transfer over to libraries, but libraries do not have an estates branch, so who will look after them? I have met Irene Knox, the chief executive designate of the library authority, and we have discussed the need for service-level agreements on areas such as that.

338. The Deputy Chairperson: I need to remind you that time is pressing on. I apologise to our guests that we have to push ahead, and although the Committee may hear the same points being made by the other boards, it is important that we hear from those boards.

339. I remind members that the Committee has asked the Department for a report on the start-up costs of the library authority, and the spread and make-up of those costs. Perhaps it is an indication of joined-up government, but that report is not expected until tomorrow. We will have to deal with that report at our next meeting.

340. Lord Browne: You referred to the fact that the education and library boards will now be in place until March 2009. The library authority is due to be in place by April 2008 — do you feel that there are any risks to the SEELB if it is not in place by then?

341. You said that you foresaw difficulties with the changeover, especially with your staffing. If the library authority is not established by April 2008, do you foresee that being a difficulty? Do you feel that a later start would help with the difficulties in synchronisation?

342. Ms Christie: It is difficult to see how the single library authority will be up and running by April 2008. We are less than six months away from that date, and there is a question over whether that deadline can be met.

343. On the other hand, my understanding is that the commitment has been made to having a single library authority, and one wonders if there will ever be a time when everything is absolutely ready. Therefore, should we not proceed with the target of April 2008, with all the potential problems involved, and deal with those as they occur?

344. The issue of staff morale concerns me deeply. It is already in difficulty and will continue to be so. Irene Knox, previously of the South Eastern Education and Library Board, and now the chief executive designate for the library authority, will be recruiting staff from RPA-affected bodies, which means that our staff will be recruited. The SEELB, while sorry to lose Irene, is happy with its new executive, Stanton Sloan, but the problem remains that other jobs are going to be filled by people from our board.

345. A key issue for us and our staff is that we do not know where the new library headquarters are going to be located, and that presents a real problem. The SEELB has quite a percentage of female staff with commitments, and they cannot necessarily move to, for example, Omagh. I am not saying that the headquarters are going to be in Omagh, or that there is anything wrong with that as a potential location, being a Castlederg native myself. However, the new headquarters could be in a place that renders it impossible for current staff to apply for jobs, and that presents an equality issue.

346. Mr McCausland: Would it make more sense if the library authority and the education and skills authority were established in sync, as regards the organisational aspect of the transition? Are there advantages in having the two in sync?

347. Mr Sloan: There are certainly advantages to that. To expand on what Ms Christie said, the problem is that the staff who work in education and library boards cannot be classified as either library staff or education staff, and they cannot be treated separately — they comprise one set of staff, and should be treated accordingly.

348. The board supports the establishment of the new bodies. There should be sufficient time to ensure that that is done properly, but it should not cause undue delay. We think that it is only when the organisations are up and running that we will see benefits. When single procedures are in place, the organisations may well start their work at different times, but I agree that the closer together those dates are, the better.

349. Mr Brolly: I see a weakness in clause 6 as regards library services being free at point of delivery, particularly as the SEELB is concerned about savings being overestimated and costs being underestimated. Is it possible — and this is a bit of a conspiracy theory — that the clause may be a loophole, and that any losses incurred could be supplemented by charging in some subtle way?

350. Mr Sloan: I do not believe that to be the case.

351. Mr Brolly: It is something that should be watched.

352. Mr Sloan: That may be prudent.

353. Mr Brolly: Do you have a view on how the new library authority should engage with other local structures apart from those in education — the local councils, for example?

354. Mr Sloan: Although there will be a central library authority, library services will be delivered locally. Therefore, we must take account of other subregional structures that may be set up, including what may transpire as a result of the establishment of the education and skills authority. We have to take account of what happens in the health sector, and members will have already heard about provisions for literacy and numeracy, early years, and the Sure Start initiatives that are in place. I am not a politician, but I would say that, as far as joined-up government is concerned, it will be important to consider subregional structures throughout Northern Ireland and ensure that they are co-ordinated and include a wide range of services.

355. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. Contrary to public perception, politicians do listen to good advice.

356. Mr Sloan: It was not my suggestion that they do not listen.

357. The Deputy Chairperson: I know. I merely wanted to make the point.

358. Mr Sloan: I apologise if the Committee took that inference from my remarks.

359. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. Your presentation and timeous replies set a good standard for the witnesses who will follow. If you feel that you have missed anything, or wish to add something, please contact our officials, because this is a major issue. The Committee welcomes such information — we are only too aware of time constraints.

360. I welcome Ms Helen Osborn, Mr Bill Reilly and Mr Barry Mulholland from the Western Education and Library Board (WELB). I understand that Rev Robert Herron is unable to attend today. You will have five minutes for your presentation, and the Committee would appreciate it if you would keep to that time. Members will ask succinct questions so that you can give succinct answers. I am sorry to press you for time. The previous presentation set the standard, so please do not let us down.

361. Mr Bill Reilly (Western Education and Library Board): I am chairperson of the library committee of the Western Education and Library Board (WELB). The board is the local authority that is charged with the provision of education, library and youth services in the west of the Province, covering 289,000 people. The public library service and the schools’ library service are integral parts of the board’s activities, and we are particularly proud of four areas of our activities in library service provision. First, we work in partnership with the statutory, community, voluntary and private sectors to improve customer services.

362. Secondly, we are proud of the way in which the public library service and the schools’ library service work closely together to address education priorities and initiatives. Current examples include the revised curriculum, extended schools, the One Book project and the Children’s Books Ireland festival.

363. Thirdly, we take pride in our early-years provision activities, which is particularly important now that the Department of Education is responsible for early-years education provision. The board has seven play and learn centres in its libraries; it supports 113 preschool groups; operates the Bookstart scheme, and holds weekly rhymetimes in most libraries for children under three. Finally, our local history collections are popular and deserve to be made more accessible to everyone.

364. I wish to briefly highlight seven points from our submission. First, core library services should be free at the point of delivery. Secondly, there should be a single transfer process for the establishment of the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority, and the subregional structure that will be developed for the library authority should mirror that being developed for the education and skills authority. Thirdly, there should be close working relationships between the education and skills authority, and the library authority. Fourthly, we are concerned about the proposed size of the board of the library authority; we are unsure whether it will be sufficient to provide the breadth of expertise required for what will be a considerable workload. Fifthly, we have serious reservations about the figures provided on projected financial savings and about the limited budget for start-up costs. Sixthly, the cost of support services, which is currently provided for in WELB’s budget, also concerns us.

365. Finally, the current funding allocation to each board for public libraries is based on a formula that relates to population and takes account of social need and rurality. That provides a level of transparency and equality, and we would like an assurance that it will be maintained, when the Northern Ireland library authority is set up, so that the west will not be disadvantaged.

366. That is a synopsis of what our very hard-working staff in the Western Education and Library Board are doing, and we are very proud of them. We hope that when the library authority is established, services in the west will not be disadvantaged and that they will be at least as good if not better.

367. The Deputy Chairperson: I apologise to members for not giving them an opportunity to let me know if they want to ask questions. I will sort that out before the next session. I have a note that Mr McCarthy wants to ask the first question, then Mr Shannon and Mr K Robinson. Would those who have not signalled to me please follow on from the next three questions?

368. Mr McCarthy: You have said that you would like the wording in clause 6 to be strengthened. What do you see as the potential problems if the words “free service” are not included in the Bill?

369. Ms Helen Osborn (Western Education and Library Board): Our belief is that without an explicit commitment in the Bill to provide core services free at the point of delivery, there is a danger that charges will be levied to address budget shortfalls, which would clearly undermine the purpose and ethos of the public library service.

370. Mr Shannon: In your written submission, you referred to what will probably be the biggest single UK library authority. You also said, and I quote:

371. “the level of savings referred to in the financial memorandum is a matter of grave concern.”

372. Your concerns are very clearly to do with savings that may, or may not, happen. The Committee has received indications that some of the savings could be achieved from reducing management costs. Do you agree? I suspect that you do not, going by your submission. Do you feel that any savings can be made?

373. Mr Reilly: Ms Osborn is probably the best person to answer that as she has had experience in the Welsh and English library services.

374. Ms Osborn: We do not know how the figures for savings were arrived at as we have not seen the calculations. There will be some scope for streamlining management structures, etc. However, in the Western Board, only 6•6% of our budget, some £200,000, is spent on senior management and their administrative support staff. It is difficult to see how the level of savings indicated in the explanatory and financial memorandum could be achieved with that level of expenditure.

375. As regards specialist staff and being the biggest library authority in the UK, and possibly in Europe, an authority of that size needs certain specialist staff in order to have a vibrant, dynamic, community focus and be at the forefront of library developments.

376. Mr Reilly mentioned local history. The new library authority will need to be at the forefront of digitization in order to make material accessible. It will also need to have expertise in other areas, for example, an external funding officer. The service currently benefits from having external funding officers within each board area. The new authority will have to have those types of specialists if it is to be effective and efficient.

377. Mr Shannon: Do you feel that savings can be made in the long term?

378. Ms Osborn: There will be significant initial costs in setting up the library authority, and substantial funds will be required to finance redundancies. Thereafter, there may be some potential for savings, but without seeing the calculations and knowing the proposed structure and how support services will be delivered, it is difficult to say what those savings will be.

379. Mr K Robinson: My colleague has fully explored the financial aspects, so I will move on. Mr Reilly, you expressed concern that the proposed library authority board will be too small to provide the necessary expertise, and that it should reflect the geographical spread of Northern Ireland. How many board members would be required to cover committees, subcommittees, and so forth? How should the geographical spread be reflected in the board?

380. Mr Reilly: The board should comprise between 20 and 25 members. The current education and library boards each have 35 members, but that could probably be pruned back a little. One way to solve the geographical question would be to hold all meetings at the board’s headquarters in Omagh — where I live. That would be very convenient. [Laughter.]

381. I have probably annoyed everyone else in the Province now.

382. We must ensure that the composition of the board represents a good geographical spread and expertise in various fields such as financial control, staffing and local councils, as well as those who have an interest in the running of libraries. One must remember that all members will not be able to attend all meetings, and if the board comprises as few as 12 members, we will run the risk of meetings being inquorate. Furthermore, the committees and subcommittees will be almost be incestuous if there are only 12 board members, because the same people will be appearing all the time. A board comprising 12 members will not be sufficient to achieve a spread of expertise and allow for members to miss meetings for such reasons as holidays and sickness. Mr Mulholland has experience of running a board.

383. Mr Barry Mulholland (Western Education and Library Board): I agree with Mr Reilly. Our board enjoys a good level of public-representative membership — 40% of the board comes from local government.

384. Mr K Robinson: You have anticipated my next question. I was going to ask whether the involvement of public representatives in a board is the solution to the incestuous relationship that was referred to.

385. Mr Mulholland: It is an advantage in our board because it ensures a level of public accountability and that communities in the five district council areas coterminous with our board area — Limavady, Derry city, Strabane, Omagh and Fermanagh — are well represented.

386. Mr K Robinson: I am glad that you said that. Several of us had concerns about that.

387. Mr Reilly: Expertise is also important — that does not mean that we do not get that from local representatives — and there is a double whammy in that respect. If we proceed with a small committee, everyone must bring a degree of expertise with them. A bigger committee will mean that more people can be accommodated.

388. Mr P Ramsey: Paragraph 15 of your written submission refers to the overall costs for the single library authority. What are the overall costs of the Western Education and Library Board’s library provision, excluding staff costs and revenue?

389. Ms Osborn: The overall recurrent budgets of public libraries in the western board area is £4•3 million, of which £3•1 million is spent on staff, because — as members will appreciate — public library provision is a staff-intensive service. Staff must be present in the branches to provide front-line services.

390. Mr P Ramsey: I know that, but another import matter is that the establishment of a single library authority will mean that library services will not have the benefits of the regional support they currently enjoy. Therefore, I wonder about those costs being taken on board at some stage.

391. Paragraphs 9 and 10 of your written submission state that the schools’ library service and the public library service share buildings, resources and IT facilities, and provide a holistic approach to the education of children.

392. How will that work? Will you be able to ensure that you continue to provide the same excellent service to both youngsters and adults?

393. Mr Mulholland: The questions are excellent, and similar enquiries have exercised our board members. A single library authority for the whole of Northern Ireland was not the Western Education and Library Board’s preferred option, and our board colleagues share that view. Given that schools’ library services are very much integrated, we believe that library services should remain an integral part of education. For that reason, and for those already outlined, library services have a critical role to play in all levels of learning.

394. The difficulties that the new library authority will experience are clear. The Western Education and Library Board operates what is almost a shared-service facility in which human resources, finance, procurement, property services, and management of assets for library, youth and educational facilities are run centrally. Therefore, the budget will have to be disaggregated to ensure that the new library authority has the proper baseline funds to cover all those areas. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is carrying out that exercise.

395. The change will present a challenge. The new education and skills authority’s chief executive designate and the chief executive designate of the library authority will have to work together extremely closely.

396. Mr Reilly: The schools’ library service is critical, particularly for primary schools, as it provides valued support to teachers in those schools. It is becoming more obvious that getting children as young as three years old accustomed to going to libraries, reading books, and enjoying reading is important to their later educational development. Therefore we must ensure that the schools’ library service does not suffer and result in an inferior service to people who are too young to complain for themselves.

397. The Deputy Chairperson: I am conscious of time, and I do not want to curtail either the later questioners or the relevant answers.

398. Mr McCausland: Would there be merit in having the new library authority and the education and skills authority established at the same time, so that the two processes could run in sync? What would be the practical implications if that were not to happen?

399. Mr Mulholland: It is crucial that the processes that will bring about the transition from the education and library boards to the education and skills authority and the library authority are aligned. That would reduce the duplication of effort needed. More importantly, it is crucial that we continue to deliver high-quality services to the public. It will not be an effective or efficient use of staff time for us to have to break away from delivering those services in order to consider the human resource, transfer, property and financial services of the two services — in the first instance for an early set up of the library authority, and then again for the slightly later establishment of the education and skills authority. That will create many difficulties. However, if the processes were aligned to ensure that we work effectively once they are complete, the education and library service could be established in April 2009 and the library service could be established in January 2009. The starting dates could be agreed if the processes could be aligned.

400. Mr Brolly: Until the new library authority is established, the Western Education and Library Board will be in charge of the provision of all things associated with libraries. Does that include proposals for new build? I am concerned that the proposed new library for Dungiven might be handed over and would have to wait until the library authority is in place.

401. Mr Mulholland: The Western Education and Library Board will continue with its plans for the development of new libraries and the refurbishment of old libraries until such times as the new library authority is created. However, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure will be aware of what we are doing, and approve of our work, as it always has.

402. Mr Brolly: When do you think that Dungiven library might be ready?

403. Ms Osborn: I will answer that. We understand that planning permission has been granted; however the board has not yet been officially notified. Assuming the traditional route for building, it will take approximately 12 months thereafter.

404. Lord Browne: Further to Mr McCausland’s questions, what risks do you anticipate, particularly concerning staffing, if the library authority is not established by April 2008?

405. Mr Mulholland: I do not envisage any difficulty if there is a delay — far from it: a delay will allow more time to ensure that the transfer is as seamless as possible. Morale issues, which have been referred to, will be greater if people believe that a difficult timescale for establishing the new authority is being forced on them for the sake of hitting a particular date. People would prefer that it were done properly.

406. Mr D Bradley: The Department of Education’s policy papers on the review of public administration stated that there would be a service-level agreement between the library authority and education and skills authority. What should be encompassed by such an agreement?

407. Mr Mulholland: That is a question for the chief executives designate of the new authorities. We consider it crucial that the Library Service continues to work closely with the Department of Education concerning school libraries.

408. There are opportunities for service-level agreements in areas such as, human resources, finance, property services, asset management etc. However, any arrangement would have to be a consequence of agreement between the chief executives designate of the new organisations.

409. Mr D Bradley: Do you think that that might be a means to achieve savings for both bodies?

410. Mr Mulholland: It would be an efficient use of resources.

411. The Deputy Chairperson: How is your staff coping with the goings-on?

412. Mr Reilly: The board is worried about staff insecurity. Education board employees, more so than those in the Library Service, are looking for jobs in other areas. The problem with library staff is that they are highly specialised.

413. The Deputy Chairperson: Please stick to discussing library staff.

414. Mr Reilly: We are not losing as many library staff. Where else could they get a job?

415. Ms Osborn: Library staff have many skills and are employable in several sectors. Staff morale is fairly high; however, certainty about a date is needed. The possibility of an alteration to the timescale would be welcomed by most staff members, some of whom have many years’ service. For someone who has worked for the board for 20 or 30 years, it would be difficult if the board were to continue without libraries being a part of it. However, those staff members would appreciate knowing with certainty whether changes are to take place in January 2009 or April 2009 or whenever.

416. The Deputy Chairperson: If you have the opportunity, please pass on the Committee’s regards to your staff for the future, and assure them that their good intentions are behind our deliberations.

417. I apologise for the speed of these sessions; however, more comes from them than you think. Thank you for your presentation and for answering our questions. Please contact our officials to advise them of any additional matters that might come to mind after today. Thank you and safe home.

418. Good morning to the delegation from the Belfast Education and Library Board (BELB), and thank you for coming to address the Committee. The standard so far has been excellent, and I am sure that you will not let us down.

419. I remind you that there is a limit of five minutes for your presentation; Committee members have been instructed to make their questions succinct, and I ask that you be as succinct as possible in your responses. I apologise that this is not a calming exercise, but — given the time restraint — that is the way that things have to be done. We will force the time and the issues with you.

420. Mrs Rosemary Frawley (Belfast Education and Library Board): I thank the Committee for giving us the opportunity to speak at this meeting. My colleagues are David Cargo, chief executive of BELB, and David Jess, assistant chief librarian for Belfast public libraries. I am a member of BELB and vice-chairperson of the library committee. I also have a long association with the public library service; I worked there for 36 years, spending the latter years as a member of the electronic libraries project team.

421. As the Committee has our written submission, I will not go through it now. I will simply highlight several issues that members may wish to explore further.

422. Belfast’s public library service operates in what has been, effectively, a divided city for the past 30 years with a large urban population. That has had, and continues to have, serious resource implications for effective service delivery. Furthermore, some 70% of the community libraries are located in areas of high social deprivation. At a time when outreach activities are extremely important to address the challenge of improving literacy, numeracy, employability and economic prosperity, those libraries are severely constrained by staff and resource shortages.

423. Belfast’s public library service is unique in the Northern Ireland Library Service. It operates a large central library and reference facility whose role is to conserve, preserve and exploit historical and contemporary resources for in-depth study and research. Many of the collections are of national and international importance, and we are concerned that the legislation does not adequately reflect the custodial role of the new library authority. Developing those collections and employing specialist staff means that it costs the Belfast Education and Library Board much more than other boards to maintain that resource. Perhaps the Committee will consider the case for separate, ring-fenced funding for a provincial reference library service to include the extremely valuable collections that are located throughout the other board areas in Northern Ireland, which have a major role to play in the cultural capital of the Province.

424. We emphasise the fact that a quality library service is the overriding priority and that a few fundamental factors are imperative to its delivery. It should be free at the point of service, and there should be coterminosity with other service providers to facilitate community planning and productive partnership working. The strong links with education should remain, so that we provide a seamless service to children and young people in the city. There should be a single transfer system for education and library board employees.

425. Finally, we have concerns about the affordability of the new library authority.

426. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for your clear presentation.

427. Lord Browne: In your written submission, you stated that the draft Libraries Bill should not proceed until the results of the review of public administration are known. Why have you taken that position? In your original response to the consultation on the draft Libraries Bill, you did not oppose the creation of a single library authority. Is that still your position, or has it changed? Should libraries, perhaps, become part of local government?

428. Mr David Cargo (Belfast Education and Library Board): I will deal with your questions in the context of our submission. When it was first mooted that a reform of public administration was needed, the board had two distinct views on the future of libraries. Our preferred option was to view libraries in the context of lifelong learning. Therefore, we felt that there should be a close relationship, in any regional body, between education, youth and the Library Service, because we have all spent the past 30 years trying to embed and conjoin those services in that context.

429. Should that not be possible, the board’s view was that the Library Service needed to maintain close links with its users, so our second preference was for libraries to move towards council control, because that would ensure a close relationship between libraries and the public.

430. There are two issues at the core of the debate. Rationalisation can bring structural efficiencies: one of something is probably better than five of something.

431. However, the downside of that is that the effectiveness of services can also suffer. The Library Service is dependent upon the close proximity of the library to its community and to its users. We are all struggling with a tension: where, on the continuum, does the crossover between structural efficiency and customer effectiveness meet?

432. Therefore, we are not opposed to a single body. Our preference is for a single body with democratic input, which is close to its users so that there would be a strong subregional structure that would ensure effective community use.

433. The Deputy Chairperson: That is pretty clear. I think that everyone is happy with that response.

434. Mr D Bradley: In its submission, the BELB stated that the Bill does not adequately address the potential for libraries to be community hubs. Could you outline for the Committee how the Bill should address that?

435. Mrs Frawley: I cannot identify that statement in our submission. However, our view is that libraries, as community hubs, constitute a vital part of the future development and prosperity of library services. We view partnership working as critical to successful strategic and resource planning.

436. We are already involved in that process — for example, in the Grove project, which is the result of a partnership among the Library Service, Belfast City Council leisure services, and Belfast Health and Social Care Trust. I will not go into the details of that project, but I assure the Committee that we have a lot of documentation and reports on it that we would be happy to submit. We will send the Committee any information on any of our services that members require.

437. Mr D Bradley: Do you think that the role of libraries needs to be more clearly spelt out in the Bill?

438. Mrs Frawley: We feel that the generic description of services should be strengthened. Inclusion of the word “comprehensive” would help, because, without some recognition of the breadth and depth of services, there is danger of dumbing down all services.

439. We also feel strongly that the research and study role of the Belfast reference libraries and their unique collections, as well as the specialist collections held in other boards, should be part of the role and responsibility of the new library authority. They are a part of our cultural capital and their continued development is important, not just for the libraries themselves but for the Province as a whole.

440. Mr D Bradley: Do you think that the Bill should go as far as to specify exactly what libraries should be used for?

441. Mrs Frawley: We do not think it necessary for the Bill to identify every role and activity. We are more concerned that the legislation might proscribe the libraries from doing certain things. We would not want to be limited in expanding current services, in introducing innovative new services or in any options along those lines.

442. Mr K Robinson: I thank the board for the presentation. Mrs Frawley has highlighted an important factor, namely the archives held by the library boards. I know from bitter experience what can happen. A member of a library board, on his way to shred an archive, just happened to know that I had an interest in that particular area, and I was able to save that archive. Is that a danger? With reorganisation, do we need to list and protect those archives before they are transferred? That is a point that the Committee needs to highlight.

443. Now, I will ask my question, which is a simple one.

444. The Deputy Chairperson: Hear, hear.

445. Mr K Robinson: What, if any, are the specific risks to your organisation if the new library authority is not established on 1 April 2008?

446. Mr Cargo: Such matters are never risk free; however, our service currently operates through the Belfast Education and Library Board. If the new library authority is not established on that date, the service will continue to run. The risk to the service is minimal, because the board will continue to provide that service.

447. Mr K Robinson: You have a plan B in place.

448. The Deputy Chairperson: Perhaps the officials will take note of Ken’s point about archives, and the Committee could return to that. It is a valid point.

449. Mr P Ramsey: Rosemary, you and your team are most welcome.

450. I have read your formal submission; you obviously take great pride in the outreach work that you do in library provision. However, you are very straight in challenging Government on monetary value, set-up costs, and so forth.

451. Are you happy with the proposals? The Belfast Education and Library Board is concerned that the costs for a stand-alone service have not been identified. We share that concern. The board’s submission states that:

452. “Projected budgetary forecasts indicate that overall funding for libraries looks set to decrease.”

453. It also points out that access to library services in rural areas may be reduced, which is a fundamental concern for the Committee.

454. The Deputy Chairperson: What about a question now, Pat?

455. Mr P Ramsey: I am leading up to it.

456. There is clear criticism of the proposed single library authority. Can you provide us with any information or evidence other than that which you have already provided? We do not have any costs for start-up, only projected costs. I asked the previous witnesses about the attempts to reduce literacy problems in Northern Ireland — one-in-four adults has such problems. How can you ensure that the collaborations among library services, the Department of Education, and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure continue to adopt a holistic approach to children’s and adults’ education?

457. Mr David Jess (Belfast Education and Library Board): The question of cost is a vexed one. The start-up costs for this year will probably cover what is required in this financial year, and that is fine. However, we are concerned that there are no figures for start-up costs for next year and the succeeding years. We assume that, for the first two or three years, there will be further significant start-up costs.

458. There will also be a figure for the infrastructure costs for those parts of the service that are currently provided by the boards. Figures that we have just received from consultants estimate that those costs will be around £900,000. Those costs will have to be factored in, and additional funds will have to be found from within the libraries’ budget. We have not yet had time to fully analyse those figures.

459. Turning to the savings that are required; referring to our experience in Belfast, the library budget in 2003 was £6 million. This year, that was reduced to £5•2 million, and next year it goes down to £4•7 million. In order to live within budget, we have, in the last three years, shed, or not replaced approximately 30 staff, which makes it has become very difficult to maintain current levels of service, and we are now at risk of ad-hoc closures.

460. Another problem to note is that when staff numbers are reduced, it becomes much more difficult to carry out the important one-to-one library activities, such as those involving, for example, literacy and special needs. Some of those activities produce low statistics, but they are labour-intensive. Therefore, having fewer staff means that there is less capacity to do the jobs that involve one-to-one services.

461. The explanatory and financial memorandum suggests that there will be nearly £2 million in savings — £600,000 in 2009-10, and £1•2 million in 2010-11. From a budget of £30 million, that is quite a considerable saving, and we cannot envisage where that level of saving will come from. From the current Belfast example, with reduced staff numbers, we will still face a potential £700,000 shortfall next year. As costs increase, reducing staff numbers may not produce sufficient savings. We are concerned about where those savings will come from, and we believe that they cannot be achieved without the wholesale closure of libraries and the consequent paying-off of staff. Closing buildings saves a little, but the big savings are in reducing staff numbers. We are very concerned that that is how the savings may have to be achieved.

462. Mr P Ramsey: David, you said that the overall Belfast library budget for this year was £5•2 million. How much of that is for staff costs?

463. Mr Jess: Approximately 70%.

464. Mr K Robinson: We have come to a key point. Staff numbers have been reduced, including face-to-face staff. Is the suggestion that front-line staff will be sacrificed in the new system, as opposed to middle or senior management, as was suggested?

465. Mr Jess: The redundancies have been of senior staff, by and large. Front-line staff have gone mainly through natural wastage, if I can use that term. We have also moved a lot of staff around to try to keep service points running.

466. We have also transferred a number of staff from what were traditionally back-room jobs to the front line. Staffing has reached a critical level whereby everyone is manning the fort.

467. Mr Cargo: We have already been part of an efficiency programme, as have all boards, in the past few years. Any back-room staff are now front-office staff. If more staff are lost, there will be library closures.

468. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you for that. That provides a clear picture.

469. Mr McCausland: Do you think that the new library authority and the education and skills authority should be established in sync? Would there be any disadvantages, with respect to staff and buildings, if that did not happen?

470. Mr Cargo: There is a danger that one becomes fixated by dates. Dates are useful for targets that everyone can work towards. An important point, both for this Committee and the Committee for Education, is that, if there is going to be change — and none of us is opposed to change — it should be done right, rather than by a certain date.

471. Another point to consider is that the board does not have education staff, youth staff and library staff. Rather, it has Belfast Education and Library Board staff. If those staff go to different organisations, there should be a single scheme of transfer. There should not be a scheme of transfer for libraries staff, one for youth staff, and another for school staff. Therefore, there is a major piece of work that must be done in respect of the reorganisation and redeployment of those staff in the new organisation. That needs to happen in a co-ordinated, planned way — to use your phrase, Nelson, in sync.

472. I would find it extremely difficult, as chief executive, to manage or hive off a group of staff on one set of terms and conditions, and another group of staff on slightly different terms and conditions. There are also practical issues involved in moving to new organisations, such as signage, rebadging of vehicles and uniforms, and the like. We want a one-off exercise.

473. Lastly, I do not want to get to a situation in which I am going around with little bits of paper that state that we are now the Belfast education board, rather than the library board. The work needs to be done properly, in a co-ordinated fashion, and at one time, on whatever date that may be.

474. Mr Brolly: Fundamentally, my understanding of your submission is that you are worried that the new library authority will provide something which is very clinical, almost like a banking service. You have mentioned the services that your organisation has provided as an education and library board, in particular the disabled, and your association with schools. All of those services are very local and produce a sense of warmth, so to speak, from the Library Service. Do you have a view as to how the new library authority can engage with all those local structures, including the local council, to make sure that that engagement is not lost?

475. Mrs Frawley: The most effective way to engage with the local population is through local people and/or their local representatives. As a member of the board and the library committee, I have seen that working in practice — it has facilitated many joint exercises between education and libraries, and between libraries and the city council. My view is that there should be more public representation on the new library authority.

476. Mr D Bradley: Excuse me, Mr Deputy Chairman. I need to leave the room for a few minutes. Please excuse me.

477. The Deputy Chairman: Are you coming back?

478. Mr D Bradley: I will be back.

479. The Deputy Chairman: I have heard that before. [Laughter.]

480. Witnesses, thank you for your presentation. You kept the standard up. I am not going to say whether it was better or worse than the previous witnesses. Take with you the best regards of the Committee to your staff.

481. There may be another meeting in the near future, and, if so, our officials will bring it to your attention. Please keep in contact, as this matter is ongoing. We are under pressure and time, as you have acknowledged.

482. I wish you all the best, and perhaps we will see you again. Thank you very much.

483. Mrs Frawley: Before we go, I would like invite the Committee to view the collections in Belfast Central Library.

484. Mr P Ramsey: That would not be a bad idea.

485. The Deputy Chairperson: Is lunch any better there than it is elsewhere?

486. Mr K Robinson: Are you still operating an amnesty? I might have an overdue book tucked away somewhere.

487. Mr Cargo: We will have an amnesty arranged for you.

488. The Deputy Chairperson: The next set of witnesses is from the Southern Education and Library Board (SELB). You are very welcome. We are formally informal here, so if I may, I will address you as Marie, Kathleen and Wilbert; I hope that you are not offended. I am Mr McNarry. [Laughter.]

489. I know that you have been apprised that you should make a five-minute presentation. Up to now, the presentations have been bang on time, and I apologise for pushing you on that, but time is tight for all the matters on which the Committee is working. Nevertheless, I am sure that that will not detract from what you have to say to us. Please proceed, and we will be ready with our questions.

490. Ms Kathleen Ryan (Southern Education and Library Board): I shall begin by making the introductions. Marie Donnell has been chairperson of the Southern Education and Library Board since 2006 and has been a library interest member of the board since 2001. She is a retired head teacher and has worked in schools in England and Northern Ireland. Mr Wilbert Mayne has been vice-chairperson of the libraries committee since 2005. He is currently a library interest member of the board, and he has been a board and library committee member since 1999. I am Kathleen Ryan. I have been chief librarian of the Southern Education and Library Board for the past five years. Prior to that, since I left school I have worked in public libraries in England.

491. Mr Wilbert Mayne (Southern Education and Library Board): Good morning. With your permission, I will give a short description of the location that is serviced by the SELB library service. In giving our responses to the Committee and to the consultation on the new library authority that will replace the five boards, we emphasise that our concerns are based on our widespread knowledge and experience of the SELB area and its needs.

492. The current population of the SELB area is approximately 364,000. The board area stretches from Ballyronan on the western shores of Lough Neagh, near Cookstown — the most northerly point — to Newry and Kilkeel in the south, and as far west as Fivemiletown. It encompasses all County Armagh and parts of County Down and County Tyrone. The area has a mixture of isolated rural communities and large urban areas such as Banbridge, Dungannon, Lurgan and Portadown.

493. A wide spectrum of economic circumstances is represented in the board area. That includes deprived wards in the council areas of Cookstown, Craigavon and Newry — in which average earnings are below the Northern Ireland mean — and a small number of affluent areas.

494. For many years, we have had the largest population of migrant workers and their families in Northern Ireland, particularly in the Southern Education and Library Board council areas of Dungannon and Cookstown. Many migrant workers make heavy use of the library services; for example, they use the computer facilities to keep in regular contact with their families, perhaps in eastern European countries.

495. The concerns that we would like to discuss include proposals not to guarantee a free service to users, the geographical spread of members of the new library authority, and the proposed start-up costs.

496. Mr P Ramsey: You are very welcome. What are your specific concerns about the predicted savings mentioned in your submission? Do you believe that the holistic approach currently used by libraries for the provision of early-years literacy, outreach work and rural work can be achieved by a single library authority?

497. Ms Ryan: We have serious concerns about the savings that have been identified, because we are not sure how they have been identified, or whether account has been taken of the fact that savings are bound to lead to redundancy costs, as a large percentage of our budget comprises staffing costs. There can be savings in the long term; however, we are not sure that they can be made in the first two years, as proposed.

498. We hope that having a single library authority will enable the same quality of services across the board for early-years provision, outreach and rural services. Some boards have developed expertise in certain areas, and a single library authority will enable that expertise to be spread across the whole.

499. Mr P Ramsey: What is your current expenditure for the provision of staff and library services in the Southern Education and Library Board?

500. Ms Ryan: The total provision is between £5•2 and £5•5 million, depending on whether the figure is net or gross.

501. Mr Ramsey: What part of that is staff costs?

502. Ms Ryan: Staff costs represent around 80% of that figure.

503. Mr Mayne: That figure reflects the rurality of the area, the number of small libraries, and the staffing issues that that entails. A large number of large libraries would be more efficient to run than the rural system.

504. The Deputy Chairperson: We appreciate that, Mr Mayne. Thank you.

505. Mr Brolly: What is your opinion on how a new library authority could keep in touch with the local structures that are so essential to the ethos of the library service?

506. Mr Mayne: The make-up of the new authority must reflect all sections and areas of society. As I come from a rural area, I have an interest in ensuring that the new authority reflects rural issues. There must be a mechanism of selection built into the appointment of members that reflects the needs of rural areas, as well as the principles that we have already mentioned. Unlike the Belfast Education and Library Board, or other boards that are nearly all urban, we are very rural. Therefore, the needs of those west of the Bann must be represented by individuals who live and work there and who service those needs.

507. Mr Brolly: Do you think, therefore, that the maximum number of 14 for membership of the library authority board is much too small?

508. Mr Mayne: I do not think that it is too small, as long as the appointment process is carried out correctly, and the membership is a true reflection of everybody in the Province.

509. Mr Brolly: Are you concerned about the geographic spread?

510. Mr Mayne: Yes; that is our concern.

511. Lord Browne: In your submission, you state that you are extremely concerned that the Libraries Bill does not contain any provision for the strategic advice system for the new library board that is available in England, Scotland and Wales. How do you receive advice? Do you feel that we need to set up a body in Northern Ireland to provide you with advice? How would such a body be useful to you?

512. Ms Ryan: There is no form of strategic advice to public library services in Northern Ireland, as there is in the other three home countries.

513. We want to see a body in Northern Ireland similar to that which exists in the other three home countries; however, the cost would be prohibitive. One way around that might be to have a formal buy-in to one of the other bodies — a formal arrangement between the relevant Government Departments in two jurisdictions.

514. The biggest of the bodies is the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council in England, which carries out a huge amount of research on public libraries, on training schemes, and so on. It welcomes us, informally, to make use of its website and publications. However, when pieces of research are being commissioned, there are no samples from Northern Ireland. It recently conducted a big training scheme for senior library staff, but it was available only to its members. Owing to the scale of running such a scheme in Northern Ireland, if we did it alone, would be very costly.

515. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for your presentation. As a former employee of the Southern Education and Library Board — three decades ago — I know exactly the problems that you face, with the geography west of the Bann, and the provisions that have to be made for rural schools and rural communities. You have stressed that some mechanism needs to be found to make sure that there is a geographical spread, and a spread of expertise in the board. Will you elaborate on that? If you had the opportunity to do so, what sort of mechanism would you write into the Bill?

516. Ms Ryan: We have discussed that issue quite a lot. We want the new library authority to engage with local structures. We would like there to be local consultative forums that would have representation from the various education sectors — from pre-school through to higher education — health, adult education, the youth sector, the voluntary sector, the citizens advice bureaux, and so on. Those consultative bodies should exist in every council area.

517. Mr K Robinson: If such a mechanism existed, would you write into the legislation that a consultative body should be set up, and then allow the individual communities to respond to that?

518. Ms Ryan: Personally, I would not write that into the legislation, but I am not a legislative expert. However, if I were chief executive of the new body, that is what I would seek to do.

519. Mr K Robinson: That would be a strategic aim of yours?

520. Ms Ryan: Yes.

521. The Deputy Chairperson: Marie, I am not sure whether questions are falling into your area of specialty, but feel free to chip in. We have two questions left, and if they are not in your area of specialty, I will allow you 30 seconds at the end.

522. Mr Mayne: To answer Mr Robinson’s point, I have had experience of rural development issues and local strategic partnerships. Local strategic partnerships include a mechanism whereby the statutory bodies, the voluntary and community sector and the business sector work together. They have 50:50 representation of folk from the statutory sector, and from social partners, who know how to operate through local councils. Therefore, that might be an option of how to include the community and voluntary sector. Like Kathleen, I am not a legislative expert, but I know how those sectors can work when they are brought together. In my experience, when that happens, it works very well.

523. Mr K Robinson: The local strategic partnerships are a good model.

524. Mr D Bradley: Your submission states that you want to see the establishment of a public library advisory forum. What do you think should be the functions of that forum?

525. Ms Ryan: In the other parts of the UK, such forums advise the relevant Minister. In the Republic of Ireland, it does the same, and it is also a strategic advisory body and a grant-making body. The forums in Scotland and Wales have the same role.

526. We have talked further about that issue since we made our submission, and we feel that the local consultation bodies are even more important than the forums.

527. Mr McCausland: Do you envisage any advantages or disadvantages with two processes — the transfer to a single library authority, and the transfer to the education and skills authority — running in sync with each other, with respect to staffing issues, buildings, and so on?

528. Mrs Marie Donnell (Southern Education and Library Board): Our major concern is that parallel processes and equivalent schemes be put in place for both the Northern Ireland library authority and the education and skills authority. It is important that, whatever happens — whether it happens at the same time or at different times; whether the timescale is identical or not — the best outcome for both bodies is ensured.

529. Mr McCausland: Will there be any practical difficulties if the two do not run in sync with regard to transfer schemes, and so on?

530. Ms Ryan: The transfer scheme must be the same. I cannot envisage any practical difficulty whether the scheme applies to 10% of people now or 90% of people in six months’ time. However, the Committee may need legal advice on that.

531. I have concerns about the delay. It is already difficult to maintain staff morale. The board is having considerable difficulty in recruiting staff. It is also difficult to plan in a strategic, long-term manner. The longer that continues, the more difficult it will get. At present, it is difficult for the board to make strategic, long-term decisions on future planning, buildings and major changes in service delivery when it does not know whether it must plan for a discrete area or for the entirety. That is the risk of delay, which applies to both the education side and the library side.

532. Mr Mayne: Ms Ryan has mentioned staff morale. The current recruitment process must be trawled internally as the board is not permitted to recruit from outside. That has a knock-on effect on libraries —their opening hours, and so on. Recently, there have been cases in which libraries have had to close because of staffing problems. That reflects back to the general public, who cannot get access to library services, and the number of books that are in usage is reduced. It has a snowball effect throughout the service. That must be managed carefully.

533. The Deputy Chairperson: Welcome back, Mr McCarthy.

534. Mr McCarthy: Deputy Chairman, was clause 6 mentioned in my absence? The board has pointed out — and the Committee agrees — that clause 6 does not guarantee the statutory provision of a free library service. What wording would the board propose in order to guarantee that provision?

535. Mrs Donnell: The precise wording would need to be detailed on the advice of a parliamentary draftsman. However, the single greatest concern of the Southern Education and Library Board is that the legislation does not guarantee in statute the provision of a public library service that is free at the point of delivery. Making changes to a scheme of charges will require no input from the Assembly, only a decision by the board of the new body in consultation with the Department.

536. The board is concerned that, in the future, financial hard times could mean that changes are introduced. The board feels strongly that, in a democratic society, the legislative body should make provision to allow its citizens to have free access to books and information, and that decisions on any changes to that provision should be taken at Assembly level. The proposed legislation would make Northern Ireland the only area in the UK where citizens do not have a statutory right to free library services.

537. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for your time, attention, presentation, dedication and answers, which were excellent. I apologise again for the tight schedule. Please take with you the Committee’s best wishes to all your staff. We wish them well for the future. If there are any additional matters that arise or evolve from today’s meeting, feel free to contact the Committee staff, if you feel that that might be helpful. Safe home.

27 September 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Jim Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs Anne Connolly Mr William McCartney Mr Gordon Topping		North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Patricia McKeown Mr Jonathan Swallow		UNISON
Mr John Corey Ms Mary McVeigh Ms Alison Millar		Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance

538. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome the delegation from the North Eastern Education and Library Board — Mr Billy McCartney, Mrs Anne Connolly and Mr Gordon Topping.

539. Mr William McCartney (North Eastern Education and Library Board): I thank you for your invitation.

540. Mr Gordon Topping (North Eastern Education and Library Board): Thank you for inviting us. We are delighted to be able to present our views on the Libraries Bill. As an introduction, we will present four or five issues that will give an overview of our position.

541. The Library Service is primarily an education service, and its origins in the nineteenth century show that it was designed to be education for the masses and was an opportunity for second-chance education. The synergy between the Library Service and the education service is the key determinant. Therefore, during the consultation we expressed the view that the Library Service should be part of the education authority. We did not believe that there was a need to establish another quango. We believed that amalgamation could deliver enhanced economies of scale and that it would be more efficient and avoid some of the problems that we will face, such as the separation of the schools’ library service from the public library service.

542. That was our original view. However, direct rule Ministers decided that a regional library authority would be created, and once that decision had been made, we worked closely with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to bring about the Libraries Bill. We have been fully consulted, and I pay tribute to the Department’s officials for the way that they have worked with us on that.

543. There are four other issues to which we would like to draw to your attention and which are important in relation to the Bill. First, there is the implementation date. Until a few days ago, we had serious concerns about that, but I understand that the Assembly has given the Committee more time to consult and to conduct additional research and investigation into, and scrutiny of, the Bill. I believe that the extension is until the end February 2008, and if that is the case then I assume it will be difficult to meet the implementation date of 1 April 2008. Therefore, although we have issues about the deadline of 1 April, that may not be a problem in the near future.

544. Secondly, there are staffing issues. Obviously, this is a time of uncertainty for many Library Service staff, and the board wishes to reduce that uncertainty as far as possible. We must enhance staff morale, create certainty where there is uncertainty and ensure that library staff know what they will be doing and where their jobs will be located.

545. Thirdly, there is the issue of savings versus costs. I am sure that the Committee will want to follow that up. The board believes that an initial investment must be made to produce savings and that the scale of that investment may be significant.

546. Finally, we would like to draw the Committee’s attention to the size and composition of the library authority’s board and are prepared to discuss the governance arrangement with the Committee. Those are our concerns, and we are willing to discuss them with the Committee.

547. Mr McNarry: I am absorbing your report. I wonder whether you share the Committee’s concerns about certain problems it has perceived. In your submission, you state that start-up costs must be properly identified and funded. The Department stated that it has set aside £670,000 for start-up costs. Do you agree with that figure? Do you think that that amount will not be enough, and that further money will be required for start-up costs in the second year?

548. Mrs Anne Connolly (North Eastern Education and Library Board): We have concerns about start-up costs. The chief executive said that in order to divest, the Department must invest, but we are concerned that £670,000 is not enough. We understand that the money is to cover part-year salaries for the chief executive designate and other senior staff, a support team, the rent of temporary premises and other consultancy costs.

549. However, we believe that other major start-up costs have not been brought into the equation. For example, the establishment of the identity of the new authority will cost quite a bit of money; so, too, may the implementation of a new staffing structure. At present, it is not known whether recruitment and redundancy costs have been factored into the start-up costs. The establishment of permanent headquarters and a regional structure will have to be funded. Activities to unite staff and help them to identify with the new authority must also be considered. Six hundred and seventy thousand pounds is a paltry sum of money with which to do what must be done.

550. Mr McNarry: How much is required? That question does not need a response immediately. Part of the problem with discussions is that they do not always provide enough information; for example, as to whether 10% or 20% or more is needed. Therefore, if the question is asked, the Committee must be able to state the amount that will be required. I understand that I may be asking you to stick your necks out. However, if you are prepared to do so, the Committee would be grateful to receive the information.

551. The Chairperson: With regard to the point that Gordon raised, extension of the Committee Stage of the Bill has been granted until 25 February 2008. I do not believe that anyone around the table anticipates that it will take until then to complete the business; however, there is flexibility. The Committee is confident that the Bill will be dealt with before that date.

552. Mr Topping: From our point of view, there may be an issue as regards the implementation date and ensuring that the authority is set up properly. There are also other cost factors.

553. Mr P Ramsey: Following on from Mr McNarry’s comments about the savings that the Department has declared will be made, and taking on board your concerns about the overestimation of those savings, what is the North Eastern Education and Library Board’s budget for staffing and revenue costs?

554. Also, the Department of Education funds the education and library boards’ early years development programmes. How will your delivery of programme be affected when the changeover occurs?

555. Finally, what about the money relating to the literacy and numeracy programmes? Will the new board be able to provide the same product and remain a centre of excellence for education?

556. Mrs Connolly: We have concerns about the proposed savings for several reasons, not least because they are based on assumptions, and we cannot be sure that all the assumed scenarios will happen.

557. I am the chief librarians’ representative on the Northern Ireland steering group, and we work closely with our colleagues in education to access funding for early-years learning. The North Eastern Education and Library Board has also accessed funding through the Northern Ireland Pre-school Playgroup Association to employ an extra member of staff for the early-years scheme. However, there are concerns. For example, funding for Bookstart will rest with the Department of Education, and we are concerned that we will not be able to continue to deliver the quality of service that we have now.

558. I missed the beginning of your question.

559. Mr P Ramsey: It was about the overestimated costs.

560. Mrs Connolly: The costing has been based on assumptions, and one example that worries us is the assumption that a number of people will choose retirement. They might not, because there is no compulsion to do so, and therefore that assumption cannot be backed up.

561. I am also concerned about the figures that have been cited for redundancy costs. Even if that money is put up — and we do not yet know whether there will be any money — the payback time will be at least two years, as we know from experience, so the savings have been overestimated. Additionally, the figures for planning for next year show a £1 million shortfall overall among the five boards, and given that we must add on the cost of corporate services, savings look less and less likely.

562. Mr P Ramsey: What is your budget for library provision?

563. Mrs Connolly: Our budget for the current year is £5·3 million, and we spend 62% of that on staff. That is quite generous, because we have increased our library opening hours. We have 29 ordinary static libraries and we have increased the opening hours for all of the big libraries.

564. Mr Topping: We are also the lead board for the electronic libraries project, and our budget for that is about £4·3 million.

565. Lord Browne: You seem fairly confident that the Bill will bring about the changes necessary to deliver a modern, efficient library service; but do any specific clauses give you concern? Is there anything that you think should be included?

566. Mr Topping: I mentioned in my initial statement that we have concerns about several issues: one is about the governance arrangements. Originally, in the draft Bill, 10 people were supposed to be involved in the new board, and that number has now been increased to 15. It could be argued that that number is still rather small, particularly if an adequate committee structure is to be set up.

567. Another issue worrying us about the governance arrangements is the composition of the board. The anticipated arrangements will follow the Nolan principles and will go through the normal Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments process. However, the Bill is not establishing any type of representation requirement; for example, the new board might not be representative geographically or take into account local interests. We would like that provision to be included, so that stakeholders can become involved in the new governance arrangements.

568. We are also concerned about the need to move rapidly on the staff-transfer scheme, in particular. I mentioned the problems that staff face, such as uncertainty, low morale and concerns about their future. The sooner we can get the staff-transfer scheme under way, the better. We have always regarded all our staff as being board staff, whether they work in the Library Service or the Education Service. However, the difficulty is that some staff will go to the education authority while another group will go to the library authority, and perhaps at different times.

569. Over the past 15 years, we have been developing a system that manages staff in a corporate way across funding boundaries. Therefore, one of the difficulties will be in separating the staff because if the transfer systems develop at different speeds library staff could find themselves being transferred before education staff, or vice-versa, and we would be left to pick up the pieces. We could end up with staff for whom we have no funding, or we could have education staff who will have nothing to do.

570. Lord Browne: Would there be an adverse effect on staff if the library authority were not formed by 2008?

571. Mr Topping: Not necessarily. However, more certainty must be built into the system to ensure that the date for the library authority’s formation becomes a deadline. That must be a realistic date. I did not believe that 1 April 2008 was ever an achievable target. All staff must be treated equally and at the same time. That would allow us to manage the transfer more effectively.

572. Mr P Maskey: I am not sure whether my question has already been asked. In your submission, you have stated your concerns about the Libraries Bill. You said that you were concerned that the library authority will be established before the education and skills authority. What are the problems with that? What risks are there to your board if the new library authority is not established by 1 April 2008?

573. Mr Topping: When the library authority and the education and skills authority are established, we will have to split the services — the schools’ library service is funded by the Department of Education, and the public library service is funded by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. In addition, some people are currently being paid from two separate budgets. However, they are board staff and are being paid partly by the Library Service and partly by the education service. For example, Mrs Connolly is the director of library and corporate services, and part of her salary comes from DCAL and part of it comes from the education service. When the new library authority is set up, we will have to divide the staff so that they are paid by one Department. If, for example, a member of staff decides that they do not want to transfer to the library authority, or if it is not appropriate for them to do so, we could be left with a person whose salary is transferred to the library authority. That could be a major issue.

574. Mr P Ramsey: You could also have two redundancies.

575. Mr Topping: Yes; that is another matter. There are issues around staff being treated with equality and how the service would be delivered by the new library authority if staff do not have enough time to set up the systems, processes and structures when it comes into operation. As an organisation, we will be facing problems such as paying staff, processing accounts, monitoring finance, and purchasing materials.

576. I do not think that there are any risks if the transfers to the library authority and the education and skills authority are managed simultaneously and through the same process.

577. Mr Shannon: Thank you for your presentation. Concern has been expressed, not only by yourselves but by others, about how support-services costs for the new authority have been calculated. The fear seems to be that those costs will be greater than anticipated. Do you have any figures indicating the cost? Also, do you have a view on the best location for support services?

578. Mrs Connolly: We are examining the Deloitte report, and we hope to have discussions with DCAL and colleagues about the concerns that the report has raised. On initial reading, we believe that the costs have been underestimated. We have no figures, but we are prepared to work on that. Also, if we are thinking about efficiency, support services should be at a shared location.

579. In our view, sharing support services with the education side would be an option. Another option would be to share support services with other agencies in DCAL.

580. Mr Brolly: The fundamental concern in your submission, and in others, is that the new library authority may become clinical, with officials living in an ivory tower and losing contact with developments on the ground. How can we ensure that the library authority keeps close contact with the education side and local councils and maintains the kind of “warmth” of the Library Service, as opposed to becoming an organisation that may become clinical?

581. Mr McCartney: As a user of the library service, as well as being chairman of the library committee, I connect with my local library. I know the staff; they know me, and that essence must be maintained. There has to be a local connection. I hope that whatever happens as regards the councils they will take a keen interest in the libraries in their area.

582. I visited a library in the United States in which local volunteers had formed a “Friends of the Library” group. Establishing such groups here, with the help of the local councils, would maintain the local connection. I foresee that the new library authority will be large and efficient, but it will need to maintain a local dimension. There should be a subregional dimension, since, in order to cover the whole of Northern Ireland, the library authority has to be quite large. Councils will have a role to play in that. The original concept of coterminosity should be revisited to assist in that process.

583. The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

584. I formally welcome Patricia McKeown and Jonathan Swallow from UNISON.

585. Ms Patricia McKeown (UNISON): The Committee has UNISON’s written submission in which, of necessity, we have adopted a twin-track approach. Members will know from the first part of our submission that we do not believe it right to proceed with a separate library authority for a number of reasons. We want to return to the original concept of the review of public administration (RPA), which was about achieving better, more effective delivery of public services.

586. We were very concerned when we saw a proposal in the RPA that would lead to the establishment of a separate quango for libraries, because we could not see sense in that. The proposal seemed to be more about that part of the public service fitting in with the administration of the state rather than looking for the most sensible location for library services.

587. From an early stage, members of UNISON who work in and service the education and library board sector have been of the clear view that libraries should be part of the education system, and that, whatever type of education structure Northern Ireland ends up with, that is where they should stay.

588. The fairly widespread public view is that we need to address the existing proliferation of quangos instead of creating new ones. That has been pretty much an all-party argument for a very long time, and for UNISON it is still extremely valid.

589. We looked at how library services are constructed in Great Britain — where we are the main union in the library sector — and in the Republic of Ireland. Neither jurisdiction has anything vaguely resembling a single authority for libraries. Library services in both of those jurisdictions are constructed in such a way that they are within democratic control, and elected representatives and the community are involved in delivery.

590. The other issue for Northern Ireland is that the small scale and geographic spread of our libraries do not easily lead to the creation of a single authority to control them. There are a number of reasons for that. The proposed authority would face very significant challenges in building critical mass. There would be particular problems in how corporate overheads, and any other support costs, would be absorbed. The financial and explanatory memorandum did not address that subject in any detail, which UNISON found disappointing. Undoubtedly, that will bear down on the service and employment.

591. The strength of public feeling in local communities has been seen recently, with the proposed closure of branch libraries. UNISON cannot see how the establishment of a stand-alone body, which would then be required to deal with a range of overheads and other support services, would not end up with a future programme of library closures in order to fund the existence of that body. That concept is completely opposite to that of the RPA, which is about how resources can be channelled down to the front-line services and into communities. An effective structure for doing so already exists in the education and library boards. People are already employed to carry out overhead and support tasks for a very large critical mass of education workers, and they deliver that service in a very cost-effective way for our libraries.

592. UNISON also has very clear views about the critical links among libraries, wider education and lifelong learning. Those links will be damaged if libraries are taken out of the education sector and left to stand alone. Education reform is outside the brief of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. I realise that the Committee is concerned about the funding of libraries, but we have consistently argued that there needs to be greater crossover among Departments in matters relating to public-service delivery. That is how we should proceed to achieve the most effective services. We saw the recent ministerial announcement about the delay of the education reform structure, and that will have an immediate bearing on the work of the Committee.

593. The Committee should advise the Assembly that it should not proceed with the draft legislation that proposes a stand-alone library service. That is not in the best interests of the public — particularly in local and rural communities — and it will not achieve a cohesive, all-embracing delivery of education in schools, the workplace and the wider lifelong learning agenda. That is not the best way forward, and it would be better for the Library Service to remain within the education sector. We do not believe that the draft legislation is capable of being amended to that effect, and its recommendations should be set aside.

594. If that is not the view that is arrived at by the Committee or the Assembly — and I hope that that is not the case — we will make other proposals about the legislation as it stands. In particular, we will make proposals regarding the protection of the workers we represent. We have said some technical things about that in relation to the current draft.

595. Mr Jonathan Swallow (UNISON): If the legislation proceeds, there are two issues about which we are concerned. Health reform — the creation of the five trusts — proceeded without an agreed transfer scheme and framework. By the time it happened, we were on the forty-eighth draft. That was a fundamental deficiency, and it was not on the trade union side — we were trying to get it right. That creates a risk of litigation and concern for all involved in the health sector. An agreed transfer scheme would be of enormous benefit to all parties in the process, not just the trade union side. There can be statutory provision for that through the use of the word “agreed” and its definition in the explanatory memorandum.

596. I am also concerned — and it is the wider policy of the trade union movement on all such reform — that Northern Ireland is clogged up with so many industrial tribunals, with enormous waiting lists. That is not a good way of solving problems. UNISON is proposing a third-party process — unique to the RPA — whereby any individual or group could take an issue in respect of transfer, or failure to abide by transfer schemes or frameworks, and have a speedy resolution. The legislation — if it proceeds — would be enormously strengthened by the inclusion of such provisions.

597. Mr P Ramsey: It is important to look at the library provision in the legislation, and we are questioning a number of the submissions that have been made. You have expressed concerns on literacy and lifelong learning, and the important role of early-years development. How do you feel about those areas coming under a single authority that would be funded exclusively by the Department of Education, rather than DCAL or the education boards? Your submission also expresses your concern that there is no grievance procedure in the existing library provision; I am also concerned about that.

598. How would you like to see the Bill amended to ensure that different mechanisms will be in place to give resolution and comfort to employees with grievances?

599. Lord Browne: Are you concerned that setting up the library authority before the education and skills authority will have adverse effects for your members? How will that affect morale? Should the two bodies be set up in synchronisation?

600. Ms McKeown: I will answer Lord Browne’s question. We do not want the Assembly to set up a separate library authority, but setting it up on a different timescale to the reorganisation of the education sector would be a disaster. We are already experiencing problems in the Health Service, where there has been some reorganisation in a significant part of the service while the other part has been, quite rightly, stalled — and we were advocates of that stalling. The difficulty is that there are big morale issues for a large number of staff who are uncertain about the future.

601. Low morale and uncertainty have a knock-on impact on service delivery, and we hope that that will be put right. However, there is a big lesson to be learned when it comes to the education and library sector. Somebody else has already got a mess on their hands, and we do not want to see the same thing replicated in the education and library sector. We have made that very clear. The current employers feel exactly the same way, and it would be as big a nightmare for them as it would be for the unions.

602. Mr Swallow: I shall pick up the point on literacy. I had the privilege of working with the Belfast Education and Library Board and the unions on a review of literacy provision. The clear outcome of that review was that we should get all hands on deck, get focused, and integrate services, because the review found that 25% of pupils in Belfast were functionally illiterate when they left school. Devastating statistics require urgent responses. However, we found that, although we could form partnerships with other bodies, the more issues we had under direct control and under direct inclusion in the literacy strategy, the more effective that strategy could be. Losing that organic link with the Library Service would be profoundly damaging. Let us remember that literacy is a central part of the health equality strategy: people who are literate are also healthier. This is a fundamental policy issue that crosses several Departments and we must be careful that we do not weaken the cohesion to focus through the education service.

603. We work with employers on lifelong learning literacy training for people who have been let down by the schools system. We should not be doing that; we should be running other forms of training jointly with employers, and the schools system should be producing pupils with literacy skills.

604. As for grievances, trade unions will negotiate effective internal grievance systems, whatever structures emerge. That issue arises if the system were to fail during the transfer process. We are seeking a fail-safe third-party mechanism across the review of public administration as the best way of giving people confidence and belief that they will be treated fairly during the difficult circumstances of merging.

605. Ms McKeown: That is also very detailed work. The Committee has documentation of the work being done under the auspices of the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in the central RPA negotiations. That work is at a fairly advanced stage and involves the type of amendment that would be necessary to give effect to it in the legislation — which we hope will not proceed anyway.

606. Mr Shannon: We probably all agree that the new library authority is unlikely to be established before 1 April 2008. If that were the case, would there be any risks or disadvantages for your members?

607. Ms McKeown: I cannot see any risks at all in the status quo.

608. Mr Brolly: Mr Swallow mentioned cohesion. Everyone is worried that the new library authority may become separated from the grass roots. Ms McKeown said that the legislation is not capable of amendment anyway, but if the worst comes to the worst — in Ms McKeown’s terms — and there is a new library authority, how could cohesion be retained, and how could legislation ensure that we keep in touch with the grass roots in education, local authorities and so on?

609. Ms McKeown: One way would be for the new library authority to have democratic representation of communities and elected representatives on its board, and other interest groups, such as other public-sector providers.

610. We must be much more imaginative when considering new structures. We are fearful of unaccountable quangos — there is no imperative on them to do business collectively and cohesively.

611. Mr Brolly: Do you also welcome the inclusion of members of trades unions and their representatives?

612. Ms McKeown: Yes. However, we believe that we ought to be included as of right, rather than go through a vetting system that requires us to measure up to somebody else’s standards.

613. The Chairperson: Could you address Jim’s question, Patricia?

614. Ms McKeown: We do not think that there are risks with the status quo. Obviously, people are nervous because everyone wants to know of what the new structures will consist. The sensible decision is to wait, rather than put anyone in the position that approximately 60,000 health workers found themselves in. We are still dealing with the fallout from that.

615. Mr Swallow: On the question of risks, education boards provide corporate support services such as payroll, asset management and cleaning to libraries. The mood music in some circles is that both the library authority and the education and skills authority want to go their own way on those matters — almost like a clean-break divorce, heaven help us.

616. That leaves people at risk, because we do not have whole-time equivalents. Therefore, for example, the library authority would have no one to manage cleaners. As a result, the inevitable contracting out would follow. Regarding the payroll, asset management and other corporate sections, there is no way of transferring any individual — under The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 legislation — as no one is identified with the work. However, there is a substantial loss of workload, and, as a result, there will be redundancies.

617. There are knock-on effects. It is disturbing to see the emergence in both organisations — even in preliminary discussions on new structures — of a culture in which people want to make a clean break and go their own way.

618. Mr McNarry: I share your overview on quangos. Unfortunately, we are not here to discuss quangos; we are here to discuss a Bill. With any new authority, start-up costs need to be properly identified and funded. The Department has stated that it has set aside £670,000 for start-up costs. Do you have any reason to believe that £670,000 is sufficient, or will further money be required to meet start-up costs?

619. Ms McKeown: We strongly believe that further money will be required for start-up costs — if not immediately, soon. However, if the functions that still have to be carried out, such as the delivery of services and the employment of staff, are properly dealt with, further money will be very quickly required in the short term.

620. We cannot understand why a crazy proposal to replicate what is already in place should be on the cards at all. The Department would be better served by putting that money into the reform of education per se.

621. Mr McNarry: What will the costings be? Are you in negotiations about costings to cover the issues that you have identified?

622. Ms McKeown: We do not know what size the proposed empire will be — that is how we regard it.

623. Mr McNarry: Empires grow. It would be useful to gauge your opinion about how costs might escalate. If costs are to be challenged, the obvious question is: how much will those costs be?

624. Ms McKeown: We will be very happy to give our opinion in consultation with the education and library boards. They will tell us the extent to which their staff provide core and support services on the delivery side — I think that that is a quantifiable figure.

625. Mr McNarry: Will you provide the Committee with that information when it has been completed?

626. Ms McKeown: Yes, I would be pleased to do that.

627. Mr McNarry: I would be grateful to receive it.

628. Mr Swallow: In a divorce, an inventory of assets is usually produced. In this case, the inventory of assets consists of buildings, people and their work. I would start by counting heads and asking what proportion of each person’s time is occupied by library work. I would then estimate the effect of the divorce, should two separate identities be opted for or support continue to be provided. The Department has not carried out enquiries in any detail, and we have had no evidence from our members of such a census approach being taken. If a sound baseline for start-up costs is to be established, those enquiries are essential and must happen.

629. Mr Brolly: It is strange that you have not done that.

630. Mr McKeown: That is not our responsibility. The proposal came from the Government and from Departments, which have all the resources and knowledge to make those enquiries.

631. Mr Brolly: On the basis that you question the figures —

632. Ms McKeown: We question the figures on the basis of experience. We have lived through so many public-sector reorganisations — not least in health — and have seen the consequences.

633. Mr McNarry: Will you have a crack at it for us?

634. Ms McKeown: The existing employers should do some work on that matter. They know, in detail, the extent to which the existing workforce provides services that keep an efficient, first-class library service operating.

635. The Chairperson: I thank Patricia McKeown and Jonathan Swallow from UNISON for attending and presenting evidence. The Committee is grateful.

636. I formally welcome the deputation from the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA), which comprises John Corey, Mary McVeigh and Alison Millar. John, please introduce your team.

637. Mr John Corey (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance): I am joined by Alison Millar, who is the NIPSA official responsible for approximately 800 members from the Library Service. We represent more than 70% of library staff. Mary McVeigh is the chairperson of our library subgroup and a real live librarian. That is the team; I am the general secretary of NIPSA.

638. The Chairperson: Please present your evidence. Incidentally, thank you for your detailed submission, which we have all read twice. [Laughter.]

639. Mr Corey: I am pleased to hear that. I understand that the convention is that I should present for five minutes and allow time for questions. However, if the Committee agrees, and given the technical nature of the points that we have raised, I do not intend to speak for five minutes. There are two parts to the evidence that we have submitted and to the issues that concern us.

640. There are general issues regarding a library authority in the first part of the Bill and in schedule 1. The Executive made it clear that the schedule 2 provisions will become the model for all RPA transfers. The provisions of schedule 2 go significantly beyond the proposed library authority.

641. Alison Millar will deal with the first part of our evidence about the provisions of the Libraries Bill, which Mary will comment on. I will deal with schedule 2. The Committee has helpfully identified the main issues and some questions from our submission, which we are happy to deal with.

642. Ms Alison Millar (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance): NIPSA suggests that the ancillary powers of the library authority be widened. Not all libraries are established by statute — the Linen Hall Library is an example — so NIPSA wants to ensure that the new library authority can work and co-operate with other relevant bodies without impediment. The ancillary powers are too narrow; we should ensure that the authority is inclusive rather than exclusive.

643. The legislation on charges for certain library services is narrow and could give rise to discriminatory procedures. The legislation could be interpreted in several ways: could one person be charged more than another? Will individuals and corporate bodies be charged differently? Will a foreign national be charged differently? The legislation is ambiguous. Those are NIPSA’s main concerns.

644. The size of the library authority’s governing board is one of the issues that arise from paragraph 2 of schedule 1, which deals with membership. Eight members is too few, and NIPSA suggests extending that number to between 12 and 18 because a board of between eight and 12 would not provide the necessary breadth of knowledge, experience, and fair representation of interests.

645. There should be fair representation for all sections of society — elected representatives, trade union nominees and representatives from the business community — in the allocation of seats. That is not reflected in the established bodies, which do not have trade union nominees or elected representative as of right. Each of those sections should receive a third of the seats.

646. The question was asked whether trade unions have seats on the education boards — we do not, which is due to the current regime. Historically, the education and library boards always had elected representatives and trade union nominees present as of right. That was fair and reflected the aspirations of those that we represented on the education and library boards.

647. NIPSA is trying to ensure a turnover in tenure of office in line with current recommendations so that a chairperson does not serve more than two terms of three years. That is to ensure that there is some turnover, but also allows for consistency. No one will be able to serve more than six years as a chairperson.

648. We also raised the issue of secondment. We are not opposed to how that is treated in the Bill, but we want to broaden the provision to have a two-way process, allowing for Civil Service secondments between the education and skills authority and the library authority, and between the library authority and the education and skills authority. Provision in the Bill is too prescriptive, and it needs to be broadened so that secondment arrangements that are appropriate for everyone are in place.

649. We raised the issue of the schools’ library service with Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure officials over the past few months. At present, the library service itself is small and receives a small funding allocation, yet the schools’ library service has to be funded from within that. It is proposed that the schools’ library service be placed under the aegis of the education and skills authority, and the public library service placed under the aegis of the Northern Ireland library authority. Staff should be able, for career-development purposes, to transfer between the two organisations, and in the case of redundancy, for example, staff could be protected by redeployment from the schools’ library service into the public library service, and vice versa.

650. I raised that matter at an informal meeting with the chief executive designate, who was appointed only recently. Expressions of sympathy were made by her and by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. I again raised the matter informally with Mr Gavin Boyd, the chief executive designate of the education and skills authority. Although those concerns were noted, they were in a long line of issues that the chief executive will have to deal with, and we are concerned that they will fall off the agenda. That is why we particularly want to protect staff. I should explain that staff are not appointed to the schools’ library service; they just end up there. People could be transferred from the schools’ library service a week before the Bill is enacted and then find themselves in the Northern Ireland library authority. Those are most of the issues that we wanted to cover in respect of schedule 1 to the Bill.

651. The Chairperson: Mary, do you wish to add to that?

652. Ms Mary McVeigh (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance): No.

653. The Chairperson: Then we will proceed to questions.

654. Mr Corey: Yes, and we will deal with schedule 2, if that is acceptable.

655. Mr McNarry: I am unsure about the schedules, but I will ask some questions because we are short of time.

656. I welcome the witnesses. You are all busy people and I wish you well with your course of action. I will ask about savings, and then about costs. In your submission, you state an obvious concern about the way in which the savings predicted for 2009-10 and 2010-11 have been calculated. You do not accept that these figures are accurate. Do you think that the Department has overestimated the savings that can be made?

657. My next question is about start-up costs, which need to be properly identified. Some £670,000 is set aside for start-up costs. Have you any reason to believe that that will be enough? Will further money be required because the start-up costs have been underestimated?

658. Ms Millar: We had raised the issue of cost, and mentioned it to the Department and the Minister when we met him in July. Subsequently, I received a letter dated 2 August. However, the information in that letter left me none the wiser.

659. The first part of your question was about the estimated savings over those two years. Although any new organisation would not need five chief librarians, we were concerned by the proposal to have fewer staff at senior- and middle-management level. However, more importantly, a degree of natural wastage is expected among staff from 2008 to 2011 by way of retirement, but, as I have already said, some of that cannot be absorbed without replacement.

660. There have been significant cuts in the libraries budget over the past three or four years, and many posts in the Library Service have been lost. We expected that a new library authority would need a capital injection at the start to ensure that it got off to a good start — everyone around the table would want the new library authority to be successful. However, my concerns are that the letter was saying to us that, as staff leave, they would not be replaced. I wonder how that will be received.

661. We are also concerned about the figure of £670,000, which has been divided — including staff salaries of £380,000 — into £385,000 and £200,000 for consultancy work. We have asked for a further breakdown of the figures so that we can see how they were arrived at and can make a judgement as to whether they are enough. That request was sent to the Department on 13 August. Unfortunately, we are still waiting for a response. We are very concerned that almost one third of the money set aside will be used to pay consultants. That is a huge amount of money for a relatively small organisation.

662. Mr McNarry: I sense that NIPSA is set to challenge the Department on its start-up cost figures. Would that be on the basis that it has had costs prepared that indicate that £670,000 is not enough?

663. Ms Millar: We have not received that information. We have asked the Department to explain how it arrived at the figure of £670,000. Without knowing that, as a starting point, it is difficult for us to challenge the figure. We only have three short paragraphs, which do not provide us with the information that would allow us to move forward.

664. Mr McNarry: If that information is forthcoming, and NIPSA has an opinion on it, would you apprise us of that? That would be very useful. I am not too sure where NIPSA stands on the setting up of the new authority. Are you in favour, mildly in favour, against, or mildly against?

665. Mr Corey: My colleagues can comment on that point. However, I would like to quickly deal with the finances. The Department has said that £380,000 of the £670,000 is for staff salaries; £85,000 is for premises and computer set-up; £6,000 is set aside for support for board members, and £200,000 is for consultancy, which we are concerned about.

666. We have come through a process of considering all the options for a new library authority, but the current view of Library Service staff, the majority of whom are NIPSA members, is that they favour a single library authority as the best option for the delivery of a library service in the future. However, there is a significant concern about the interface between the schools’ library service and the new library authority.

667. On the question of the timing of the establishment of a new library authority, and whether we have a problem with a delay until 1 April 2009, the simple answer is no. It makes sense from an employment-relations point of view to introduce the education and skills authority and the library authority at the same time.

668. Mr McNarry: Thank you for that answer.

669. Mr Brolly: It is interesting that you are in favour of the establishment of a single library authority, but that you also have concerns about how that authority may lose contact with the educational establishment. What recommendations would you make to ensure that the new library authority keeps in touch with the grass roots in the way that the current library system does?

670. Mr Corey: We have not come prepared to answer that specific question, but I will ask my colleague Mary McVeigh from the Library Service to comment on that. It is fair to say that our members in the Library Service feel that it has been the Cinderella service of the education and library boards. They feel that when difficult times come, the Library Service always suffers most. They believe that the creation of a clear single library authority in Northern Ireland would remove that difficulty and enable the service to stand on its own. Mary may wish to say more about that.

671. Ms McVeigh: Our members are very much in favour of rural libraries and libraries in the community. I would say that they are 100% behind maintaining the links that already exist in communities. They do not envisage that the establishment of a single library authority would change that.

672. Mr Brolly: I disagree slightly. There is always a possibility that when a service becomes strongly centralised —

673. Ms McVeigh: We would want to make sure that —

674. Mr Brolly: That is exactly the question that I asked. John said that you might not have been prepared for the question, so it would be useful if you could send the Committee a written submission on that matter.

675. Ms McVeigh: I am in charge of the Irish and Local Studies Library in Armagh, which is part of the Southern Education and Library Board. We hope that a library such as ours would not be caught up in a central body in Belfast, and that we could maintain those types of local facilities.

676. Mr Brolly: I understand that.

677. Lord Browne: I congratulate you on your full and good submission. You said that, in general, you had no objection to the provision for secondments between the new authority and the education and library boards. You also say that the Bill does not mention the schools’ library service and that staff should retain the right to move between the public library service and the schools’ library service. As the Bill stands, paragraph 6 of schedule 1 mentions only secondments from the Civil Service. Have the staff of the boards expressed any view on that, and have you had any indication from the Department whether such secondments and moves would be allowed?

678. Ms Millar: As I have already said, sympathy has been expressed, but sympathy expressed at informal meetings does not necessarily translate into action in reality. At this point, our concern is that because staff in the schools’ libraries service make up quite a small group within the Library Service, they will be forgotten about until it is too late. We want to ensure that the schools’ library service is taken into account. I do not know how that matter sits within a legislative framework.

679. The education and skills authority will be responsible for the schools’ library service, and I am not sure how it will interact with the new library authority. I will bow to those who know more about writing legislation than I do, but does a specific provision need to be written into the legislation to allow for the transfer of staff for career development purposes, and, perhaps, for a redundancy situation? When I have raised the issue, sympathy has been expressed, certainly by DCAL officials and Irene Knox, but we have seen nothing formally in writing. Obviously, there must be liaison with the Education Committee and the chief executive of the proposed education and skills authority.

680. Lord Browne: How would you describe staff morale at the moment? Are they anxious?

681. Ms Millar: They are very anxious. The one question that is asked at every single meeting I have with staff is about the schools’ library service — it is even asked by those who do not currently work in the schools’ library service. That gives an indication of the level of anxiety.

682. Mr Shannon: I commend NIPSA on its presentation and on the information that it has provided. I also commend it on its campaign for classroom assistants, and we hope that that will be success. NIPSA certainly has our support.

683. Alison, you answered many of the questions before they were even put to you. You mentioned the membership of the authority. Keep me right, but I believe that NIPSA’s proposal was that one third of board members should comprise business representatives, another third should be community representatives, and the final third should be elected representatives. Is that correct?

684. Ms Millar: No. One third should comprise business and community representatives, another third should be elected representatives, and the final third should be trade union nominees.

685. Mr Shannon: I may have missed your comments about the number of members on the new library authority board. How many would you recommend should be on the board? You are not agreeable to there being only seven and, to be fair, I think that some of us are not happy with that either. I am interested in your opinion on that.

686. Ms Millar: There should be between 12 and 18 members on the board.

687. Mr Shannon: You also mentioned tenure of office. Again, my opinion may differ slightly from yours, but I am keen to learn your opinion on the matter. You said that a chairperson should serve for a maximum period of one term. I am not saying that a person should be a chairperson for life, or even that he or she should be like the Chairman of this Committee. [Laughter.] However, if the library authority’s board had a good chairperson, whoever that might be, would it not be better, for the sake of consistency, to be flexible on the maximum term for which that person could serve?

688. Ms Millar: We said in our submission that the reappointment of a chairperson should be for a maximum of one term. Therefore, the total period in office would amount to two terms. Normally, a chairperson would be appointed for three years. Consequently, the maximum time for which a chairperson could serve would be six years. After that time, it is only fair that the post be advertised and that the same chairperson not be reappointed. Such a turnover would allow for fresh thinking to be brought to the post. That is why NIPSA suggests a maximum period of six years — that is, the original term and the additional term.

689. Mr Shannon: Are you saying that a chairman who has been in post for six years could put his or her name forward for reappointment?

690. Ms Millar: No.

691. Mr Corey: NIPSA broadly accepts, and this is now the norm for public appointments, that people should not serve any more than two terms. Furthermore, those terms should last for three or four years. We have accepted that broad point.

692. NIPSA believes that it is right that the library authority, the education and skills authority or the health authority should include elected public representatives. That is consistent with the review of public administration’s principle on democratic accountability — now accepted by the Executive — which states:

“elected representative, both locally and regionally, can play their full role. That role includes decision making about services”.

693. However, NIPSA also says that representatives of employees, and of employers, in the sense of social-partnership representation, should be included.

694. Mr Shannon: Are trade unions represented on the education boards?

695. Mr Corey: They used to be represented on the education boards. However, the current public-appointments system tends to exclude representational groups. That is not in the best interests of the authority, or public services. Some public bodies are no longer wholly representative of society, because different sectors of society are not represented.

696. The Chairperson: John, may I ask you to move on to the second part of your submission?

697. Mr Shannon: May I ask another question, quickly? Mr Corey, you have expressed concerns about your staff. Do you feel that enough of your members will apply for redundancy packages and, therefore, make the savings work?

698. Mr Millar: No. We want the jobs to be retained. We will not encourage people to leave the organisation.

699. The Chairperson: John, could I ask you to move on to the second part?

700. Mr Corey: I would like to mention schedule 2 to the Bill, which provides for transfer schemes. NIPSA has provided some comments on the schemes in our written submission. We have submitted those comments to the Committee in a separate appendix.

701. The points that we have raised in our submission are all based on advice from senior legal counsel Mr Frank O’Donoghue QC. The facts are that those points have not been resolved to our satisfaction. The Committee asked whether those points had been resolved in negotiations with the Department. The answer is no, and that is because the parliamentary draftsman’s response to all the points that were raised was that he did not think that any of our suggested amendments were necessary. We remain in disagreement, so we have come before the Committee to put those points at the Bill’s Committee Stage.

702. I apologise that the matter is so technical; I may struggle to get everything across. The first point relates to paragraph 1 of schedule 2. Paragraph 1 provides for a scheme, the three elements of which are set out at 1(a), 1(b) and 1(c). Our legal advice is that paragraph 1 is deficient, because it does not also create any rights or liabilities for the employee or between the employee and either the transferor or the new authority.

703. The legal advice is that there should be wording in paragraph 1 to create rights and liabilities between employees and the transferor or the authority.

704. The response from the parliamentary draftsman is that that is not necessary because of paragraph 4(2), which states that The Transfer of Undertakings (Protections of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) apply:

“The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/246) apply to the transfer whether or not the transfer would, apart from this paragraph, be a relevant transfer for the purposes of those regulations.”

705. The parliamentary draftsman’s argument is that additional wording is not needed because of that provision. Our legal advisor’s concern has been that, even though there is a provision in paragraph 4(2) — which he refers to an antonymous paragraph; in other words, its meaning is opposite to the rest of the scheme — an industrial tribunal could still face a challenge from an employer that a particular transfer is not a relevant transfer for the purposes of TUPE.

706. The underlying reason behind this is that TUPE legislation does not apply to public-sector reorganisations — they are excluded. Therefore paragraph 4(2) has been included in the Bill — as an antonymous provision — as an attempt to make TUPE legislation apply to public-sector reorganisations.

707. Nonetheless, our legal advisor is concerned that that could be challenged in an industrial tribunal. His point is that the whole of schedule 2 should make it clear that the transfer scheme includes employee rights and liabilities by adding appropriate wording to paragraph 1 of schedule 2. That is the point that carries through from the other points made in paragraphs 6 to 8 of appendix 1 to our submission. The same point is made in those paragraphs and, hopefully, they have explained the underlying factors. That is part of the complexity of TUPE legislation and transfer legislation.

708. To move on to other points that were raised in our submission: we raised a concern about paragraphs 4(3)(c) and 4(3)(d) of schedule 2. We believe that paragraph 4(3)(c) should include a reference to incorporating independent arbitration. Currently, the paragraph refers to procedures designed to resolve grievances, but we believe that that should be extended to include the phrase “incorporating independent arbitration”. We were also concerned that paragraph 4(3)(d) should include a clear reference that the determination of the compensation should be subject to the procedures under grievance and independent arbitration.

709. Again, the parliamentary draftsman’s response was that those amendments are not considered necessary, and he went on to argue that if anyone was dissatisfied with the compensation that they received, they could go to an industrial tribunal. With the greatest respect, we believe that that misses the whole point of why the legislation for a transfer scheme exists. The point is that we are trying to secure a statutory duty on all employers under the review of public administration to provide for transfer arrangements for employees that are additional to TUPE.

710. That is the entire purpose of this. It is not a satisfactory response to say that the changes do not have to be made because if anyone were dissatisfied about compensation, he or she could go to an industrial tribunal, presumably under TUPE legislation. The key point is that one can only go to an industrial tribunal under TUPE legislation if one has constructively dismissed oneself or been otherwise dismissed. The procedures that NIPSA wants to set up under a transfer scheme are to enable employees to pursue complaints in order to be paid compensation and grievances, but remain in their employment. That is the fundamental difference. There has been no resolution on that. In our submission, we proposed specific amendments that could be made to paragraphs 4(3)(c) and 4(3)(d). We stand by those suggested amendments. We believe that they are reasonable because they are based on other models of legislation that use the same type of phrases.

711. I would now like to refer to paragraph 4(6) of schedule 2. I apologise if members were mislead by paragraph 11 of appendix 1 of or submission, which refers to “paragraph 6”. It should have read “paragraph 4(6)”. That sub-paragraph deals with grievances and who will hear them. NIPSA is concerned that the sub-paragraph, as drafted, does not make it sufficiently clear that grievances will be heard by an independent person or body. It will be left to the authority or the employer to nominate any person or body that it wishes to hear a particular grievance. That person or body does not necessarily have to be appointed by the Labour Relations Agency in line with independent arbitration arrangements.

712. Therefore, we believe that paragraph 4(6) should be revised in line with the wording that we have suggested:

“Procedures under paragraph (3)(c) and (3)(d) above shall include a mechanism for grievances to be referred to independent arbitration under the aegis of the Labour Relations Agency.”

713. I must say that I have never before seen the formulation of words that appears in the Bill in legislation that relates to employees, grievances and independent arbitration. I am not sure of the background from which it came.

714. In passing, I want to point out that the Public Service Commission has requested that the order of paragraphs 4(3)(c) and 4(3)(d) be reversed in order to make it clearer that the consideration of compensation is a matter that falls under grievance procedures. At present, the mention of grievance procedures comes before compensation. The commission has suggested that paragraph 4(3)(c) should deal with compensation and that paragraph 4(3)(d) should deal with grievance procedures. However, we stand by our suggested amendments.

715. Finally, paragraph 4(5)(b) deals with pension protection. We are concerned that it does not adequately protect pension benefits. The draft legislation states that:

“‘pension protection’ is secured for a transferring employee (‘T’) if after the change in T’s employer T has, as an employee of the Authority, rights to acquire pension benefits”.

716. In law, it could be argued that there is a difference between rights to acquire pension benefits and actual pension benefits. NIPSA made that point to the parliamentary draftsman but it was rejected as being unnecessary. Our understanding is that it was rejected because the Department was unwilling to make the change on the basis that, in law, a person has the right not to opt into an employer’s pension scheme. In law, a person can decide that he or she does not want any pension benefits. The Department is saying that it cannot write in a provision that implies that a person must take the pension benefits that will be available in the new authority. That is not right, nor is the idea that the principle — that a person can decide not to have pension benefits — is in any way nullified by the amendment that NIPSA is suggesting.

717. NIPSA’s written submission suggested amending the paragraph to follow the wording that was used in one of the most recent examples of such legislation, the North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which dealt specifically with transfer of staff and pension entitlements. NIPSA can see no reason why the same legislative point could not be repeated in the Libraries Bill.

718. However, as an alternative, NIPSA suggests an even simpler amendment to paragraph 4(5)(b) which currently states:

“as an employee of the Authority, rights to acquire pension benefits and those rights are the same as”.

719. We suggest removing the words:

“and those rights are the same as”.

720. The paragraph should be amended to read:

“rights to acquire pension benefits which are the same as”.

721. That would meet NIPSA’s point. I want that suggested amendment to be put on the record. The first suggestion was to follow the North/South implementation bodies’ legislation model. However, I have made the further suggestion that NIPSA’s point of concern would be met by the above amendment.

722. Those are the key points of the legislation that are of concern to NIPSA, and we have not resolved them with the Department. As I said at the outset, they are critically important, because they are not relevant to the library authority alone. The Executive have made it clear that this will be the model for all review of public administration transfers, so we must get it right.

723. The Chairperson: Given the time pressure that the Committee is under, I will allow two contributions. However, we will study everything that NIPSA has said today and its written submission. Thank you.

724. Mr McNarry: We were with you all the way until you mentioned schedule 2. I am glad that the Committee Stage has been extended until February to allow us to consider it all — that was positive thinking on the Committee’s part. Normally, technical arguments put us to sleep, but you have woken us up, John. It is heavy material, and you have almost taken the Committee through a training exercise. The Committee will scrutinise the Bill line by line, and we are glad of your input.

725. As the Chairperson said, the Committee will need to examine in depth what you said and the amendments that you are asking for. Will you be blunt and tell the Committee where you are going with this, and what you want the Committee to do? Are you looking for sponsors, or for someone to assist you in what you are doing? I am not clear about that. You have made your points; do you then have to convince someone in the Assembly to argue those cases? Have you started that?

726. Mr Corey: Yes. We have started the process in that this Committee will be considering the Bill at its Committee Stage. As you have said, that involves a line-by-line scrutiny of the clauses, and NIPSA is seeking to influence the Committee in that examination.

727. Mr McNarry: I understand that.

728. Mr Corey: If NIPSA must make further representations in order to get the legislation amended, it will try to do so. It would have been better had the parliamentary draftsman agreed with NIPSA’s written representations, which were based on senior counsel advice. However, that was not achieved. The Committee has a copy of the response that NIPSA received from the Department, which more or less says —

729. Mr McNarry: Have you met officials from the Department about it?

730. Mr Corey: We have not met the parliamentary draftsman directly. However, NIPSA is open to having a discussion with the draftsman, or his staff, to see whether we can resolve our differences on those points.

731. Mr McNarry: That would have been helpful.

732. Mr Brolly: We could meet the parliamentary draftsman to talk about that.

733. Mr McNarry: The parliamentary draftsman will have to talk to the Committee. There is no point in the Committee acting as a mediator.

734. Mr Brolly: I am intrigued by the notion that someone might not want their pension transferred.

735. Mr Corey: I am not an expert on pension law, but any employee can now tell their employer that they do not wish to participate in their pension scheme. It would be foolish to do that, but that is one of the legacies of Thatcher’s laws on public-sector pensions.

736. The Chairperson: I thank John Corey, Alison Millar and Mary McVeigh for their attendance and for giving us plenty to think about.

4 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland

Witnesses:

Mr Noel Kelly		Departmental Solicitors Office
Ms Julie Mapstone Mr Paul Sweeney		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure

737. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome Julie Mapstone, Noel Kelly and the permanent secretary of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Paul Sweeney. Would you please introduce yourselves? Is Paul here yet?

738. Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Mr Sweeney has been detained at another meeting, but he is in the Building and is expected to join the Committee soon.

739. I am head of the libraries restructuring branch of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Noel Kelly is legal advisor from the departmental solicitor’s office. He is an expert in employment law and has been involved in many of the staffing issues that are connected to the RPA changes.

740. The Chairperson: There is no formal presentation, so we can move immediately to questions or comments.

741. Mr P Maskey: I will ask a three-part question on trade union concerns. NIPSA is concerned that clause 3 of the Libraries Bill does not allow for the proposed library authority to co-operate with other bodies. First, will you explain the thinking behind clause 3 and give examples of the kinds of bodies that you envisage the library authority co-operating with? Secondly, does clause 3 allow the library authority to co-operate with bodies that have not been established under statutory provision? Finally, has the Linen Hall Library been established under statutory provision?

742. Ms Mapstone: Partnerships are key issues for the library authority and are covered in clauses 2 and 3.

743. Clause 2(3) states:

“The Authority may make such arrangements with other bodies whether inside or outside Northern Ireland which it considers necessary in order to enable it to carry out its duty”.

Co-operation is reiterated in clause 3(2)(h).

744. The library authority will be required to work with other organisations in developing and delivering its services. A single library body is in a better position to develop such key partnership arrangements. The Bill will leave the library authority at liberty to effect partnership arrangements with whichever bodies it sees fit including, for example, the education and skills authority, the Linen Hall Library and any other sorts of organisation whose provisions it feels that it can use effectively to deliver services to the public.

745. Mr P Maskey: The authority is allowed that freedom?

746. Ms Mapstone: Yes.

747. Mr D Bradley: Could you explain what lies behind clause 4, which concerns the power of the authorities to undertake commercial activities? Can you assure the Committee that the Department will not judge libraries on their commercial success, or otherwise?

748. Ms Mapstone: That is not actually a new provision; under the current legislation, libraries have the authority to carry out commercial activity. That might include assisting on a commercial basis with research, production and sale of books of local interest, or providing coffee shops, which several libraries have begun to do. It is not new, but we wanted to make it absolutely clear, because many senior library staff were interested in developing some of those aspects.

749. The performance of the library authority will not be measured by reference to those commercial activities, because they are not expected to be a highly significant part of the Library Service’s work. Performance will be measured, in the usual way, by the extent to which the service meets, or surpasses, the policy guidelines set out in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, by its achievement of the public library standards and by its stewardship of public moneys.

750. Mr D Bradley: Would it be helpful to include in the Bill clarification that libraries will not be judged on their commercial activities or success, given that that was one of the anxieties of the Chartered Institute of Libraries and Information Professionals?

751. The Chairperson: Do you want to pursue that any further, Dominic, or are you happy enough for now?

752. Mr D Bradley: I am happy with that.

753. Mr McCarthy: Many, if not all, of the witnesses were extremely concerned that the current wording of clause 6 does not guarantee free core services. Some were of the view that the current legislation is clearer, as it specifies what exactly can be charged for. Others suggested that the core services described in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ be specified in the legislation as being free. Why has the Department not specified clearly in clause 6 that core services will be free of charge? Would the Department consider amending the legislation to make the commitment to free core services more explicit?

754. Clause 6(2) permits different charges for different people, localities and circumstances, and that could, potentially, be discriminatory. What is the intention of clause 6(2), and why is it included in the Bill?

755. Ms Mapstone: The proposed legislation is not intended to change, in any way, the current charging regimes in the Library Service, but it is intended to simplify the existing statutory provision. That part of the current legislation has pages specifying in great detail what can and cannot be charged for.

756. In the Department’s policy-guideline document ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ its commitment to the public library service, as a universal service that is free at the point of use for its main provisions, is made quite clear. There is no intention whatsoever to change that, but it needed to be simplified. Indeed, in the explanatory and financial memorandum that accompanies the Bill, the commitment to a free library service is stated. That could be made more specific, but it would be very lengthy and structured and the Department wanted to get away from that. If the Committee has a view on how it could be better worded, we would be interested in hearing that.

757. A point was raised on clause 6(2), referring to the fact that:

“The scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases, including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities.”

758. That reflects the current, different, practice in the Library Service where, for instance, members can use the Internet free, but non-members are charged.

759. A fine for late return would not be levied from senior citizens or children, whereas it would be levied from adults. It is to make sure that that sort of different practice is covered.

760. Mr McCarthy: All the representations that the Committee has received have been concerned about the lack of commitment to continue with free services. Will you consider changing the wording of the Bill to convince us all that library services will be free at the point of delivery?

761. Ms Mapstone: We will consider that.

762. Mr Brolly: My point is supplementary to Mr McCarthy’s question. People are concerned about the sums of money that will be saved and the start-up costs that will be required. That adds to the concern that the library authority will be forced into a situation where it will have to slip in some charges that the Committee would not want to see happening. That is why Kieran’s point is important: the Bill should state explicitly that core services should be free at the point of delivery.

763. Mr D Bradley: Ms Mapstone, why would there be different charges in different localities?

764. Ms Mapstone: I cannot recall the reason for that. There are differences in certain charges; for example, libraries can hire out rooms to community groups and they can levy different charges according to the type of group involved. For a charitable body, there would be a reduced charge. We will come back to the Committee on that.

765. Mr McCausland: As regards co-operation with other bodies, Ms Mapstone mentioned the education authority and the Linen Hall Library. What other bodies might the library authority co-operate with, and what bodies outside Northern Ireland would be involved?

766. Ms Mapstone: I do not anticipate that there would be many bodies outside Northern Ireland involved. On a professional level, there could be connections with library services in other parts of the UK or in the Republic. There could be scope for joint activities.

767. Mr McCausland: Is the Linen Hall Library established by statute?

768. Ms Mapstone: It is. I do not have material relating to that point with me, but the Linen Hall Library is grant-aided by the Department for certain aspects of its provision.

769. Mr D Bradley: Mr McCausland mentioned the Linen Hall Library. What sort of relationship do you envisage the authority having with more independent libraries such as the Armagh Public Library and the Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich Memorial Library and Archive?

770. Ms Mapstone: Are you talking about partnerships between the library authority and those libraries?

771. Mr D Bradley: Yes. What partnerships or relationships could the library authority develop with those two libraries?

772. Ms Mapstone: That would be up to the library authority. Much of the Bill provides enabling measures, which will allow the authority to develop good relationships and partnership arrangements with other libraries and public bodies for better provision of public library services. The Department is not saying that the authority should or should not do something: we intend to make the provision available, should it be relevant.

773. Mr McCausland: Picking up on that point, does clause 3 allow the library authority to co-operate with bodies that are not established under statutory provision? That is why I asked about the Linen Hall Library. I am not sure, but I do not think that there is any legislation establishing that library — there may be some ancient provision from 1790 or so. However, there is no statutory provision for the Linen Hall Library. If that library is a body with which the authority might have a partnership relationship, and a funding role, then an issue arises about funding roles for other independent libraries such as the Armagh Public Library or others that might emerge.

774. Can you clarify that? Is that what would be anticipated?

775. Ms Mapstone: Any partnership arrangement that is useful for developing the service to the public would be allowable under the proposals. Nothing is being ruled out.

776. Mr McCausland: What about a funding role, not just a partnership? Does partnership imply a funding role?

777. Ms Mapstone: We do not anticipate altering the current arrangement whereby the grant to the Linen Hall Library goes directly from the Department.

778. Mr McCausland: It is funded directly from the Department?

779. Ms Mapstone: Yes.

780. Mr McCausland: I could understand that happening when there were separate education and library boards. Is there any reason why the funding will come directly from the Department, rather than through the library authority?

781. Ms Mapstone: The library authority’s prime concern will be the public Library Service. The Department could choose to delegate other funding to it, if there was capacity in the legislation to do so. However, the Department has no intention of doing that.

782. Mr McCausland: I understand that the library in the Ulster American Folk Park is supported by the Western Education and Library Board. That responsibility would pass to the library authority, I presume?

783. Ms Mapstone: The funding of it would; yes.

784. McCausland: I presume that other independent libraries that exist, or might emerge, would follow the example of the Linen Hall Library, whereby they would seek funding from the Department?

785. Ms Mapstone: If they were seeking funding from the Department, they would come to the Department.

786. Mr McCausland: Public funding for other independent libraries would come from the Department, rather than the authority?

787. Ms Mapstone: Yes.

788. Mr McCausland: In the current legislation, the phrase “comprehensive and efficient”, which refers to the standard of service, is not included in the Bill. Some people suggested in their submissions that it would be useful to have some reference to the quality of the service in the legislation. The suggestion was made that the annex from ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ could be incorporated in some way. Would the Department consider strengthening the wording of clause 2 by incorporating a set of standards? If not, why not?

789. Ms Mapstone: As members know, standards appear in the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ policy guidelines document, and that is the first time that standards have been set for the public Library Service in Northern Ireland. Progress towards achieving those standards will be monitored as part of the monitoring arrangements between the Department and the library authority. The expectation is that the authority will reach, or even surpass, those standards in the next few years. At that stage, the Department intends to review the standards to see whether they are still relevant or whether they might be changed or upgraded in order to continue the improvement and development of the service.

790. If the standards were to be included in the legislation, the Department would have to go back through the whole legislative process in order to amend them. We do not think that that is appropriate or necessary. Standards can be part of the relationship between the Department and the authority.

791. Mr McCausland: Is there any reason for not including the phrase “comprehensive and efficient” in the legislation? That would not have to be amended.

792. Ms Mapstone: The Department considered that phrase long and hard. That is a common phrase that is used about public library services across the UK — however, it is not terribly meaningful. What is meant by “comprehensive” must be spelled out. That is what the Department tried to do in redrafting the legislation. Having to legislate for efficiency is a little strange, because one would expect that to be monitored anyway.

793. We strengthened the duties of the authority in respect of the provision of a comprehensive service in clause 2(2)(a), which states that the specific task of the public Library Service is to provide:

“materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children”.

794. That is an attempt to define what we mean by “comprehensive and efficient”.

795. We will look at that issue again. I recognise that witnesses have raised that concern in their evidence to the Committee.

796. Lord Browne: Most of the witnesses have expressed the opinion that establishing the library authority and the education and skills authority at the same time would be to the advantage of staff — it would maintain their morale and give them certainty. They have also said that 1 April 2008 is not a realistic date for the setting-up of the library authority. Has the Department had any discussions with the Department of Education about the timing of the establishment of the library authority and the education and skills authority? If so, what were the outcomes of those discussions?

797. Mr Paul Sweeney (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Obviously, the Department of Education’s decision on 19 July to announce that the establishment of the education and skills authority would not now take place on 1 April 2008, but at a time between then and April 2009, has had a material impact on all of these matters. Likewise, the Committee’s decision to seek a four-month extension to allow for further consultation — and rightly so; it was the Committee’s prerogative to do so — has had an impact.

798. As a result of all that, we have, as you might imagine, engaged with the Department of Education to work out in what way the timescales will have to be aligned. The Minister has obviously also reflected on that, and he has raised the issue with his Executive colleagues. My understanding is that he will come before the Committee on 18 October, and he wishes to engage specifically on that issue in the light of the decision about the education and skills authority and that fact that the legislation now needs more time at Committee Stage. The Minister wishes to specifically engage on the need to realign, and establish certainty about, the timescales for those two processes. Meanwhile, we and our colleagues in the Department of Education are working very closely on the practical tasks that need to be addressed.

799. Lord Browne: Do you foresee a realistic date for setting up the library authority? Is it possible that it will be set up not by 1 April, but at a later date?

800. Mr Sweeney: From the Minister’s point of view, April 2008 was the DCAL position. Some might say that it was an aspirational date, but until the Minister makes an official decision — and, in the first instance, advises the Committee of that decision — officials have to continue to work towards that date. As I say, I know that the Minister has given the matter very serious consideration, and he will engage with you specifically on the issue of timescales on 18 October.

801. Mr McNarry: Forgive me for being late, and please stop me if this has been raised already. The Committee has heard evidence from witnesses who have taken legal advice on the Bill that suggests that there are obvious elements in the Bill that are open to legal dispute. They have informed us that the reply to the advice has been that that may be the case, but any dispute should be sorted out at a tribunal. The rest of the Committee and I found that quite disturbing. What issues have been pointed out to you that indicate that a dispute is already taking place? Are you aware of a response to the effect of, “We recognise that disputes will arise, but rather than resolve then at this stage, we will let them go and allow them to be dealt with in tribunals and the courts.”?

802. Mr Sweeney: That may relate specifically to schedule 2 and the transfer schemes.

803. Mr McNarry: It does, yes.

804. Mr Sweeney: With the Committee’s approval, I will defer to my colleague from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office.

805. Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitors Office): Certainly, as far as I am aware, no response has ever issued to anyone from NIPSA or UNISON or anyone else along the lines of, “We recognise that there is a dispute, but we will leave it to the tribunals to sort it out.” That simply would not be the way in which we would approach it. Various issues were raised in the NIPSA document, of which you are aware.

806. We take a different legal view on those issues. To answer your specific question, nobody that I am aware of has responded in a way that suggests that we would leave the tribunals to sort out a mess that we had created.

807. Mr McNarry: I am grateful for that response. However, I will pursue the matter.

808. The drafting of the Bill is also a concern. You are telling the Committee that the two legal opinions are different — yours differs from someone else’s. That seems to link directly to an existing dispute. I need to know that you are confident that your opinion is right, that the other opinion is wrong, and that you will put yours in the legislation and allow it to be tested in the courts.

809. From a layman’s point of view, I am asking you to have another crack at the legislation and come back and let the Committee know that you are doubly sure that you are right and that they are wrong. That would reassure those of us who have to legislate on the matter and — somehow — agree the Bill, which is what we want to do. I am not suggesting that this would happen, but the Committee will take a dim view of being misled by anyone, particularly where legal opinion is concerned, when we are reliant upon advice. Given that, would it not be better to take on board what I have said? Would you take an opportunity to resolve the matters that I have mentioned to avoid a scenario in which the dispute may be hanging in abeyance, with the only course of action left being to go to a tribunal?

810. I say that because, when the matter comes before the Assembly — and even when the Committee scrutinises the minutiae of the Bill — I, and I am sure that other members will agree, will need to be satisfied that the legal advice that we are getting is correct. At the moment we have contrary legal advice. I will not flip a coin to decide which one I believe. However, I am sure that you appreciate where I am coming from. Given that a legal dispute is ongoing, I do not want schedule 2 to be included in the Bill in the knowledge that at the first opportunity the Bill will be tested in court. I do not think that the Minister would want that either.

811. Mr N Kelly: I understand your point. There are two differing legal opinions, and I am fully prepared to reconsider the issue. However, it will come as no surprise to the Committee to hear that in the run-up to today’s Committee meeting we went over the legislation again thoroughly. My opinion is still that it is correctly drafted. That will be of no immediate comfort to the Committee because another senior counsel has a contrary opinion. The opinion of Frank O’Donoghue QC has not been disclosed to me, but both in writing and in person, John Corey indicated what he said and what he was taking out of that opinion.

812. Certainly, I will reconsider each of the issues that have been raised. It would be helpful if we could see the full opinion that NIPSA obtained. The Committee may also find it helpful, but perhaps it has seen it already.

813. Mr McNarry: I appreciate Noel’s leading me, which makes a change — I was coming on to that matter. Given that a dispute has been signalled, it is important that those who created that resolve the matter by getting together.

814. I hope that the Committee would support such a request to those who have highlighted the prospect of a dispute.

815. It should be put on record that the Committee may need to seek a third legal opinion — an outside opinion. That is no disrespect to Mr Kelly, and I am reluctant to do so, because the money that it would cost could be spent on a school or on a hospital patient. I am taking a cross-cutting perspective, in that I would like to believe what you say, but I have heard a different opinion. If you and Mr O’Donoghue cannot get together, the Committee may need to take some action, but the matter must be resolved. .

816. Mr Brolly: In the ongoing argument between the two legal opinions, paragraph 15 on page 4 of NIPSA’s submission may be significant: “Trade Union Side has sought further legal advice on these matters.” “We remain strongly concerned that the current provisions in the Bill may not provide the necessary protection of staffs’ rights and we believe all the disputed clauses in Schedule 2 should be subject to further detailed scrutiny at Committee stage.”

817. It is significant that, in the second sentence, NIPSA uses the words “may not provide”, whereas its officials’ expressed a much stronger opinion when they first appeared before the Committee.

818. Mr N Kelly: The difficulty arises when a lawyer is asked to scrutinise a Bill, or any piece of work, and to try to punch holes in it. I stress that I have not seen Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion, but it may have been along the lines of recognising the possibility of a dispute. I suspect that his opinion is not couched in as definite terms as was initially suggested to the Department. However, it would have been extremely helpful to have seen his opinion.

819. The issues are complex, and my instructions throughout, when considering this Bill and throughout the work that I have done for other Departments on RPA, have been to ensure that the interests of staff are fully and properly protected in line with Cabinet Office guidance and TUPE protection. That is what I sought to achieve. However, if there is doubt, I want to see the full opinion and I would give it careful consideration. I know Mr O’Donoghue: he is an extremely able lawyer, and I would be interested to hear what he has to say.

820. Mr McNarry: In order to provide clarity to the Committee, is it the case that the contrary legal opinion has not been discussed with you?

821. Mr N Kelly: It has been discussed but not disclosed. I have seen paraphrased extracts.

822. Mr McNarry: Is there no way that you can agree with the suggestion that the response was that in that eventuality, the case would simply have to go to a tribunal?

823. Mr N Kelly: I am absolutely certain that that suggestion was not made by me, in my hearing, or, as far as I am aware, by anyone else. As at least one person in this room knows, I chair the tribunal, and I would not drum up extra work.

824. Mr McNarry: I accept that.

825. The Chairperson: I will move on to Dominic, who, I hope, will include the issues raised in paragraphs 2 and 3 of schedule 1 to the Bill in his question, such as how many board members the authority should have and the rules governing the tenure of office.

826. Mr D Bradley: That is exactly the point that I was going to raise. The Bill states that the board should have between seven and 14 members. Many witnesses who have appeared before the Committee have questioned the ability of such a small board to handle the workload involved, particularly as the nature of the work means that the board often has to set up subcommittees. A board that has between seven and 14 members would find that extremely difficult.

827. Did the Department look at the size of other boards in Northern Ireland and compare its proposal with those, or try to benchmark the board by comparing it to similar boards in other parts of the UK and the Republic?

828. Witnesses have expressed anxiety about the make-up of the board: they believe that it could be more representative and could include public and union representatives, and library interest groups. Have you considered inserting a clause into the Bill to deal with the make-up of the board? What are the pros and cons of introducing legislation to do that in comparison with leaving it to a public appointments process?

829. Ms Mapstone: The Department examined other boards in Northern Ireland for benchmarking purposes. We did not look outside Northern Ireland. We looked at the size of board membership, with particular reference to some of DCAL’s sponsor bodies such as the Arts Council and the Sports Council. There is a general move towards having smaller boards that work more effectively and efficiently, so we were trying to reflect that. The text of the Bill also reflects advice from the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA), which recommends having smaller boards. However, the Minister is on record as saying that he wishes to reconsider all questions relating to the board: he has made that point to the Committee and wants to hear its advice.

830. OCPA recommends open appointments on the basis of merit and the need to reflect the width of experience required. The Department does not believe that the new library authority will need to have the range of committees that is currently required by the education and library boards. As the new board will be dealing only with the Library Service, fewer committees will be necessary. An audit committee and a finance committee will be needed: after that, the situation is quite open; therefore, we do not think that the need for committees will necessarily drive up the number of board members. As I have said, the Minister wishes to reconsider much of the detail.

831. Mr D Bradley: You said that the general feeling is in favour of having smaller boards, but is there any evidence that they are more efficient? You also said that appointments would be based on merit; but how will you ensure that you get board members who have the experience and level of interest needed?

832. Ms Mapstone: I am not aware of any specific research demonstrating that smaller boards are more effective than larger ones. The Department has followed the views and guidance of OCPA.

833. The information and documentation for the advertisement for the recruitment of board members will be crucial in ensuring that appointments are based on merit. The advertisement will need to specify the types of experience being sought. Criteria will be set for the recruitment of members and will ensure that all areas of required expertise are covered.

834. Mr D Bradley: I can see what lies behind the process, and that you will be able to attract suitable candidates through the advertisement. Would it be useful for a balance to be built into the process so that some of the interests that I mentioned earlier could be represented on the board?

835. Ms Mapstone: Getting a balance will be crucial. The Department does not want the board to comprise people with just one type of experience or who come from just one area. It wants the board to reflect broadly the population that will be served by a universal public library service. Care must be taken in drawing up the recruitment documentation so that the range of applicants will be wide.

836. Mr McCausland: To pick up on your use of the word “reflect”; the constitution of the current education and library boards does not oblige them to reflect the areas they serve, and in some cases, there has been great disparity in the appointments that have been made. The only two bodies that are bound, by legislation, to reflect Northern Ireland society in their appointments are the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission. If that is an example of good principle, and if the Department has endorsed the need for the new board to reflect the area it serves, is there value in considering whether to include provision in this legislation?

837. Ms Mapstone: We will give that matter further consideration.

838. Mr Brolly: I have a question about the composition of the new board, particularly as regards geography. At present, local councillors are members of each of the five education and library boards that represent their areas. Does the Department envisage that the new library board will include members from the new councils, however many there are? The Committee has asked previously how the Department intends the new library board to associate, and have a close relationship, with local authorities so that it does not become centralised. Of course, being a country fella, by that I mean Belfast-based.

839. Ms Mapstone: The authority will be a regional body with a single board, and it will be a challenge for that board to reflect local issues. In the interests of balance, how that will be done must be considered. It will be difficult to set up a board that reflects the interests of local areas within a single, regional body. The chief executive designate, Irene Knox, is concerned to ensure that local relevance is achieved in the delivery of the library service and is considering how to go about that.

840. Mr McCausland: If I were to sit on the library authority, and it were suggested that the library in Dromara should be closed and a new one opened in Drumnahunshin, I would not have a clue what to do, because I do not know those places. However, I would be able to make a decision on whether to transfer services from Skegoneill Avenue to the Shore Road. Local input is important. Later, the Committee will be discussing the subregional structure of the library authority. I am yet to be convinced that there will be good decision-making on local issues within a single library authority when, in practice, those on the board will know little about certain areas. If I were asked whether a library should be situated in Londonderry, Strabane or somewhere else in the west of the Province, I would not have an answer. How will that be dealt with?

841. Ms Mapstone: Something as significant as a library closure would require a great deal of interaction with local people. As members are aware, the Department requires the education and library boards to engage in lengthy consultations on any proposal to close a library.

842. Mr McCausland: However, the board of the single library authority, which would not have local knowledge, would make the ultimate decision.

843. Ms Mapstone: Yes; the final decision would be taken by the board, but it would have to ensure that it gained local knowledge.

844. The Chairperson: I agree with Mr McCausland that Strabane would be a suitable location for a new library.

845. Mr Brolly: You have used the phrase, “interaction with the local authorities”. How would that be written into the legislation? Who, from a local authority, would you interact with? If your face were set against having representatives from each local council on the new board, what type of structure could be set up that would allow you to have close contact and deal with situations such as those that Nelson McCausland mentioned.

846. Ms Mapstone: Much will depend on what emerges from the review of public administration. In particular, community-planning responsibilities will fall to the new councils, and we have had conversations with the Department of the Environment specifically on whether the responsibility of the library authority to interact, under those community-planning guidelines, should be put into legislation. We believe that it should not. The library authority would then be named in the relevant local government legislation as a body that would be part of those community-planning responsibilities. Until that arrangement is set up, the library authority must develop relationships at a local level, through its senior library staff.

847. The Chairperson: I would like Members to turn to general issues for the next 15 minutes. Paul Maskey, Kieran McCarthy and Wallace Browne will each ask a question, and I would ask Julie and her team to give a composite answer.

848. Mr P Maskey: Why is there is no provision in the Bill for secondments between the library authority and the education and skills authority or between the schools’ library service and the library authority? Why are secondments being limited to the Northern Ireland Civil Service? Will you consider broadening the opportunities for secondments?

849. Mr McCarthy: My question is about money and estimated savings. The majority of witnesses have been concerned about the predicted savings for the library authority in 2009-10 and 2010-11, and, in particular, the assumption that there will be savings through reducing the number of management-level staff. The boards have said that they do not have a large number of senior staff and that cutbacks in backroom staff have already been made. Witnesses have also pointed out that savings from redundancies are not normally realised until at least two years after they occur, and that corporate services will mean ongoing additional costs for the new authority.

850. In detail, and with supporting figures, how does the Department envisage making those savings? You may wish to provide a written answer to that important question.

851. Lord Browne: I return to my original theme — the link between the library authority and education services. Many people are concerned that, when the services are separated, the strong links and experience that has been built up will be put at risk. How does the Department intend to maintain those links? In addition, how will the new library authority deliver on the literacy and lifelong learning programme?

852. Ms Mapstone: There is already scope for secondments in the legislation. Paragraph 5(1)(b) of schedule 1 states that the library authority, including its chief executive, shall have: “such other employees as the Authority may determine.”

853. There is no insistence that those employees would come through direct recruitment — there could be secondments. Paragraph 8(1) of schedule 1, under the heading “Arrangements for assistance”, states:

“The Authority may make arrangements with such persons … as it considers appropriate for assistance to be provided to it.”

854. No attempt is being made to deny other types of secondments, particularly on the education side, with the schools’ library services. Secondment arrangements will apply to the library authority. Civil Service secondments are specified because they may not otherwise have been allowable, and there may be a need for a civil servant with specialist skills to implement financial systems or accounting procedures to work in the library authority. That is the only reason why that measure been included in the schedule.

855. Mr Sweeney: The financial effects of the Bill are, to some extent, set out in paragraph 13 of the explanatory and financial memorandum, which estimates savings of £600,000 in 2009-10, rising to £1·2 million in 2010-11, under the review of public administration. Some of those savings are contingent on when the new library authority goes live. The figures were predicated on the body’s going live on 1 April 2008, so the actual starting date will have some effect.

856. Corporate services are dealt with in paragraph 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum. That is important, and the Department has made Deloitte’s work available to the Committee. At present, it costs almost £1 million to deliver corporate services to the five education and library boards. That money comes from the five education and library boards, but, as the new library authority will be a stand-alone body, that indirect cost must be identified and factored in. Deloitte’s work was useful because it quantified that cost. I needed to know the current hidden cost. Deloitte said that it was £956,000, which I will round up to £1 million for the sake of this discussion. Therefore, I know that I will have to find around £1 million. Taking guidance from the chief executive designate, we will have to find the most cost-effective way in which to deliver the corporate services that are currently being delivered through the five boards. If the Chairperson approves, perhaps the Department could provide the Committee with a succinct couple of pages outlining the ramifications of the Deloitte study.

857. The Chairperson: The Committee would welcome that.

858. Ms Mapstone: The Department of Education and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure keep in regular contact on issues relating to the creation of the two new bodies and the development of a common approach to staff-transfer issues between the education and skills authority and the library authority. Contact is maintained using implementation teams from both bodies. That will ensure that staff who are currently employed in the education and library boards have the same cover when they transfer to the two new bodies.

859. We have been asked about the continuation of relationships — there is a strong historical connection between the public library service and the education service. For example, library assistants deliver initiatives such as Bookstart, which is a literacy programme, to preschool children. Library staff are involved in primary-school visits that demonstrate the library’s value to young children through storytelling sessions and other initiatives. We will ensure that that service continues, and it can include any sort of partnership arrangement. Service level agreements could be developed between the education and skills authority and the library authority. A great deal of debate is ongoing between the two sides, and that will continue.

860. The Chairperson: Several witnesses have expressed concerns about the assumption that a reduction in managerial staff will result in savings. Will you comment on that? Some people have said that the education and library boards do not have a large number of staff at senior level and that the number of back room staff has already been reduced. Is that the case?

861. Ms Mapstone: Yes. Some education and library boards have been quite successful in reducing their staff numbers. Streamlining is involved when combining five library services into one, and we expect that that will have an impact on the Library Service headquarters and its administrative staff. The specific costings associated with that streamlining are based on the assumption that there will be efficiencies in combining five library services into one.

862. The Chairperson: We shall move to general issues.

863. Mr D Bradley: We have already covered a few of the general issues. There have been concerns raised about the location of the library authority’s headquarters. Has a decision been made about its location and, if not, when will it be made? What will the Department take into consideration when making its decision? Also, where will the library authority’s temporary premises be located? Finally, what steps have been taken to ensure that reference materials and archives will be protected by the new library authority? The Chairperson knows that the Irish and Local Studies Library in Armagh is at the forefront of my mind when I ask that question.

864. The Chairperson: And why would it not be?

865. Ms Mapstone: The chief executive designate and her immediate support team are based in Belfast, pro tem. However, in November 2007 they will move to temporary premises in the centre of Lisburn. Nothing has been determined about a permanent location for the library authority’s headquarters. We are waiting for final advice to emerge on the relocation of public-sector jobs and the extent to which that will direct us. We also need to consider the library authority’s location in the light of decisions that will be made about the location of the new bodies that will be formed as a result of the review of public administration. As there may be a timing issue, we may need to make our decision first. At present, I cannot tell you anything about the longer-term location of the new authority. Nevertheless, it will be the subject of consultation and an equality impact assessment.

866. Mr Sweeney: The actual model through which the new library authority will be delivered has yet to be determined. The critical issue will be in ensuring that we achieve business continuity. I do not envisage a situation whereby the new body will have huge headquarters — it will be a small, lean group. Perhaps, later on, we will talk about exploiting the subregional structure. The notion of a headquarters — with hundreds of people being consolidated into one geographical space — is not one that has entered into my business plan or processes at this stage.

867. It will be the new board’s responsibility to bring proposals to the Minister. The Minister will operate within statutory and Public Service Commission guidelines on the location of public-sector jobs. I do not want to leave the Committee with the impression that several hundred people might be located in one place. Rather, a small group will probably be housed. We will have to identify — using all available guidelines — the most cost-effective location.

868. The Chairperson: I recall the Minister making the same point.

869. Mr McCarthy: Dominic has pre-empted my question. I invite you to find a suitable site on the Ards Peninsula, which is absolutely beautiful. We could fit you in there, just fine.

870. Mr McCausland: Or a caravan site in Ballywalter.

871. Mr McCarthy: Some witnesses have suggested that a separate advisory council should be set up to provide specialist advice to the library authority. Has the Department considered that option? What would the Department see as being the pros and cons of having such an advisory body?

872. Ms Mapstone: The Department has considered the matter. A separate statutory advisory body would involve considerable expense, and would be an extra statutory body in a situation where similar bodies are being streamlined.

873. Such an advisory body also carries certain disadvantages. As a standing body, there would be recurrent costs for a function that may not be needed frequently. It would also be static, in that it would not necessarily be a repository of good practice in library services.

874. We accept that the library authority will need access and recourse to advice, but there are existing relationships, networks and bodies to provide that advice. The authority will have access to the work of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, which undertakes research in library studies and makes that research public. As a separate, dedicated body, the library authority will be in good position to develop strong networks with public library services across the water and in the South, and with professional associations such as the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals and the Association of Chief Librarians.

875. Once good networks are established, all sorts of benefits spin off from them, such as systems of peer-review, and joint activity to examine certain aspects. On an ad hoc basis, anything that has worked elsewhere, or anything that might be causing a problem might be discussed within those networks. That is a much more dynamic picture; and that arrangement is more likely to offer the library authority advice that is current and reflects current good practice.

876. Mr Brolly: I will follow up on Paul’s point. Various people who submitted representations to the Committee were worried that the library authority would be placed in an ivory tower somewhere, and that it would be distant. That is why the Committee is concentrating on the local impact of a central library authority. May I suggest a location for it? Mid Ulster would be grand; and there is nothing wrong with East Derry either.

877. Mr McCarthy: That is too far away.

878. Mr Brolly: Toomebridge.

879. The Chairperson: No questions have been asked. [Laughter.]

880. Mr McCausland: What does Ms Mapstone think might be the role of local government in any subregional structure? Should the Bill not refer to the subregional structure of the library authority?

881. Ms Mapstone: The Department sees the subregional structure as an operational matter and one that should not necessarily be reflected in the legislation. The issue is about how the library authority will operate at the local level, and that is still under consideration by the chief executive designate. She regards it as an important matter. The Department accepts that delivering local relevance is of key significance, but the issue is about how the library authority will operate in a practical way at ground level.

882. Mr McCausland: Will the incoming chief executive have that matter worked up in the next couple of months?

883. Ms Mapstone: I know that she is proposing to do that, as far as possible.

884. Mr McCausland: That was one of the issues that the Committee took into account when it asked for an extension of the Committee Stage. There was uncertainty, and that element was thrown in at a late stage. There had been no mention of it before then.

885. How many staff would be in a central executive administrative team? I know that they will be lean and fit.

886. Mr Sweeney: I can answer that question only at a very high level. My discussions with the chief executive designate have been predicated on having a very small executive team that might comprise the chief executive, a directorate team — a handful of people or less — and some support or administrative staff. Please do not hold me to that model.

887. The principle is to exploit all of the talent that exists throughout the library network in Northern Ireland, and to ensure that the headquarters’ core function will be to support and empower that network, rather than becoming some sort of ivory tower. As yet, we have not submitted a business model to the Minister, but the impulse in the Department has been to predicate it on the idea of having a small, multidisciplinary executive team.

888. Mr McCausland: There is no national library in Northern Ireland. Therefore, unless one travels to Scotland, Dublin or London, one cannot get access to the wealth of material that is important for the development of some of the cultural life in Northern Ireland. Should the legislation not make it the responsibility of the library authority to ensure that there is a collection of all the relevant material about Northern Ireland, and what I would term the Ulster diaspora? I am not saying that there should be a national library collecting everything under the sun.

889. Individual libraries in Northern Ireland will have books about local villages or the history of some organisations, and so on. However, one cannot get access to material about people from Ulster who have travelled around the world and who have made their mark in various areas of life. I have found several examples of where one has to go to the British Library to find information about people from Northern Ireland. It is bizarre that the material is not available in places such as Omagh, Belfast Central Library, or the Linen Hall Library.

890. No one can get access to the material because no one knows that it exists, unless, like me, they are weirdoes or sad people who go on holiday in order to search for that sort of material. Can a provision be included in the legislation to pick up on the idea of having a collection of material that is relevant to Ulster and the Ulster diaspora? If I travel to Dublin, I can get easy access to material about any place in Ireland. There is a gap to be filled.

891. The Chairperson: I presume that that point can be absorbed, because it does not really have a legislative base.

892. Mr McCausland: It could be included as a responsibility of the library authority.

893. Ms Mapstone: We will consider it.

894. Mr McCausland: OK, that is fine.

895. The Chairperson: My question concerns the tenure of the chairperson of the new library authority. NIPSA expressed the view that the legislation should specify that the chairperson of the new board should be permitted to serve a maximum of only two terms. Have you any views on that?

896. Ms Mapstone: We agree. However, it does not necessarily belong in the legislation but rather in the terms of appointment and the operating rules of the board.

897. Mr Brolly: I am worried about operational issues not being included in the Bill. Obviously, coming from a rural area, I am worried about the library service not providing a comprehensive service across a wide geographical area. I do not accept that the matter should be left to the operation of the library authority when it is established. It should be written into the legislation that there should be contact and interaction with local authorities, and how that could be managed and achieved.

898. Ms Mapstone: We will consider that point. As I said, the Minister wants to consider board membership issues. The difficulty with putting operational matters into legislation is that the legislation would become huge and would start to limit the new authority’s freedom and flexibility, and it would make it more difficult for the authority to deliver the best possible service. Therefore, it is a question of selecting the key operational issues that are required.

899. Mr Brolly: This reflects again on one of the earlier questions about having comprehensive and efficient provisions. To me, the word “comprehensive” refers not only to material but also to a wide geographical spread. It is important that that should be included somewhere in the Bill. I am not insisting on there being representation on the board, but geographical spread should be written into the legislation in a viable way.

900. The Chairperson: I thank the team from the Department; Julie Mapstone and Noel Kelly; and, of course, Paul Sweeney the permanent secretary for attending the Committee. We look forward to reading and rereading the Hansard report.

901. The Committee intends to write to the Department about issues that were not completely covered this morning, such as start-up costs, around which there are several issues to be clarified.

902. Thank you all for coming.

11 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
The Lord Browne
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

903. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): This section of the meeting will comprise a review of the evidence collected to date on the Libraries Bill, with the aim of the Committee’s coming to an agreement on the position that it intends to take on various clauses when Minister Edwin Poots gives evidence at next week’s meeting.

904. Independent legal advice, relating to staff transfers in schedule 2 to the Libraries Bill, was mentioned at the Committee meeting on 27 September. The Committee Clerk raised the issue informally with the Director of Legal Services. She advised the director that at the meeting on 4 October, an official from the departmental solicitor’s office (DSO) said that in light of NIPSA’s proposed amendments, he was prepared to review again the provision in schedule 2 to the Bill. The official said also that it would be helpful if he could have sight of the full legal opinion that NIPSA had received from senior counsel.

905. The Committee agreed to ask NIPSA to make available a copy of the legal opinion, which, when received, will be forwarded to the Department for onward transmission to the DSO official. When the DSO official has communicated final views on the matter, the Committee will be better placed to decide what — if any — legal advice is required from Assembly Legal Services on the interpretation of schedule 2.

906. The Committee Clerk: This morning, I received from NIPSA the letter from Frank O’Donoghue QC. The letter provides all the evidence that NIPSA referred to when it gave evidence to the Committee.

907. Mr McNarry: I welcome the fact that we have Frank O’Donoghue’s letter, because we can now look at it in conjunction with the evidence that we received from NIPSA. However, why we are giving it to the Department is slightly beyond me. Why are we doing the Department’s work? I seem to recall two things — although I need to be sure that my recollection is correct, so if it is wrong someone can pull me up on that. First, the legal gentleman who came to the Committee — and whose name eludes me — said that he had not had any discussions on the legal side of the situation.

908. However, he was quite adamant that he was right and everyone else was wrong. Despite not having had any meetings with him, he said also that he understood that Mr O’Donoghue had altered his opinion somewhat since drafting the letter to his clients. The letter from Mr O’Donoghue to NIPSA’s solicitors is dated 2 February. We need to know whether Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion has altered, because we have a legal man telling us in an evidence session that he understands — and we have to take people on trust — that it has altered. He was not able to substantiate that assertion, but it is now in the mix.

909. Therefore, if Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion has altered, how crucial is that to the Committee? In other words, is it wise or safe for us to consider the opinion that the Committee was given as being the endgame? Do we need to check whether Mr O’Donoghue has altered his opinion? On the basis of what he had heard and understood, the legal man did not give any indication that Mr O’Donoghue was either more right than he was or less wrong than he was. The situation is too grey for me.

910. The Principal Committee Clerk: Certainly, we will check straight away whether there have been any changes to the document containing Mr O’Donoghue’s opinion. If there have not been any changes, a reasonable way forward would be to present the advice to the departmental solicitor’s office. Given that DSO commissioned the legislation, it is right to give its officials the opportunity to comment on it.

911. If there have been any changes, either we will inform the departmental solicitor’s office or we will ask the Department to inform the departmental solicitor’s office. Only when the departmental solicitor’s office responds will we be in a position to ask our legal advisers whether they are content with any dispute that has arisen between the two parties. We will check out fully whether any changes or amendments have been made to the document.

912. The Chairperson: It is my understanding that the document has not been altered. The name of the official from the departmental solicitor’s office is Mr Noel Kelly, but that will also be checked.

913. Mr McNarry: That information was recorded in a previous Hansard report. Until we have that information, we cannot consider the issue properly. If the Committee finds that it needs independent legal opinion, whom would it approach? Would we approach the same people who are providing the Department with legal advice or would we look elsewhere? Can we look elsewhere, because that seems to be the direction in which we are heading?

914. Mr Bradley: On page 10 of the document at tab 4, there is a report of Mr Kelly’s evidence. He said that: “There are two differing legal opinions, and I am fully prepared to reconsider the issue.”

915. The Chairperson: He is prepared to reconsider the issue?

916. Mr Bradley: Yes. He says also: “I will reconsider each of the issues that have been raised.”

917. Mr McNarry: Dominic is right. I cannot see any movement for the minds of Frank O’Donoghue and Mr Kelly to meet.

918. Mr Bradley: At that stage, he says also: “The opinion of Frank O’Donoghue QC has not been disclosed to me, but John Corey has indicated what he said.”

919. That reflects accurately what Mr Kelly said last week — that he was prepared to reconsider the issue and that he had respect for Mr O’Donoghue’s views.

920. Mr Shannon: If the Committee refers the matter to the legal advisers for consideration, will their opinion come back to the Committee?

921. The Chairperson: Yes.

922. Mr Shannon: I wanted to ensure that that would happen.

923. The Principal Committee Clerk: Frank O’Donoghue’s advice will be copied to the Department, which will forward it to the departmental solicitor’s office. DSO will respond by stating whether or not it agrees with the advice and by giving reasons if it does not agree. That opinion will come back to the Committee. At that point, the Committee will be free to take further, independent legal advice on any outstanding issues by liaising with the Assembly’s in-house Director of Legal Services. Therefore, if required, the Committee has access to independent legal advice.

924. Mr McNarry: As a final word on that matter, I am uncomfortable with the Committee’s copying Mr O’Donoghue’s letter of advice to the Department. The Department should get its own copy. If it is prepared to consider the advice, why do its officials not get off their backsides and ask for it? I would vote against the Committee’s sending Frank O’Donoghue’s letter to the Department. Let the Department go its own way and get its own advice. By sending our advice to the Department, the Committee will be sucked into a situation in which it has both asked for and supplied evidence. It is not a clean process.

925. Mr D Bradley: If the Committee disagrees with Mr Kelly and has access to another opinion, it would be churlish not to pass that on. NIPSA is Mr O’Donaghue’s client; therefore, the Committee might be the only conduit that is capable of supplying Mr Kelly with the information that he needs.

926. Mr McNarry: In that case, we should ascertain whether NIPSA is happy for us to pass on a document that it submitted to the Committee.

927. The Chairperson: We have that understanding from NIPSA. However, if David wishes to record his dissatisfaction with the notion of forwarding —

928. Mr McNarry: I am dissatisfied, and I want to make that clear.

929. The Chairperson: Members should now give their attention to the web article, which was sent to the Committee by Ms Julie Mapstone, who works for the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Ms Mapstone has highlighted paragraph 3, which states that libraries: “more than doubled their book spend for the second year running”.

930. Mr McCausland: The article suggests that things are wonderful; however, the background is that over the past few years, the amount of money given to libraries has remained unchanged, increased slightly or, in some cases, decreased. In certain years, because it could not get money from anywhere else, the Library Service took money from the book fund in order to spend it on buildings and staff. Staff levels have been cut to the bone; therefore, there is a little bit of extra money for books. The sentiment of the article is disappointing — it is spin of the highest order. Total library expenditure has certainly not gone up.

931. However, there is no point in fighting with anyone about library spend — no one would listen.

932. The Chairperson: You have vented your spleen on the matter.

933. Members should now refer to the chief executive designate’s reply to the Committee’s request for an update on staff recruitment and the notion of developing a sub-regional structure for the new library authority.

934. Mr McCausland: The letter states that the proposed sub-regional structure would, in practice, equate to having an area manager. The person who was to fulfil that role would go to any local community-planning meetings.

935. The Chairperson: That can be noted for now.

936. Mr McNarry: I have a comment to make — I am sorry if I sound like I got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, but my day was going well until I arrived here.

937. Mr Shannon: I thought that that was every morning, David.

938. Mr Brolly: His bed only has one side.

939. Mr McCausland: David’s bed has two wrong sides.

940. Mr McNarry: To get out of the other side, I would have to climb over the wife. [Laughter.]

941. I cannot believe that a body that does not deserve the title “designate”, has now got a fancy title, which is the Northern Ireland library authority implementation team. It has an office and so on, and the chief executive designate has written to the Committee. I cannot believe that recruitment is being carried out for that body.

942. The Chairperson: It is also setting up a temporary headquarters.

943. Mr McNarry: This will come back and bite us; and that is crap.

944. The Chairperson: Your views have been well noted. You have made them known on more than one occasion.

945. Members should know that we will be having a working meeting with the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure next week. It was thought originally that there would be time for the Assembly Research and Library Service to brief the Committee on its background paper on the Bill, which was provided to members during the meeting of 13 September 2007. I draw members’ attention to that.

946. However, given that we are also receiving a briefing next week from the Department on the budget process, there may not be sufficient time to allocate 30 minutes for a presentation on the background paper. Do members wish to receive a briefing on the background paper at another time?

Members indicated assent.

947. The Chairperson: I want to draw members’ attention to the issues that have been raised by witnesses and the Committee during the course of the evidence sessions, along with the response from the Department, which we heard last week. I remind members that the Committee needs to agree its position on each of those issues and decide whether we want to attempt to persuade the Minister to make amendments to the Bill. It was great to discover that, sometimes, Committees can persuade Ministers to make amendments on their behalf before Bills go to the House.

948. It is best to discuss each issue systematically. I want to examine clause 2 of the Bill — “Duty of Authority to provide library service”. If we cannot add value, and if we are content, we will move on. The Chartered Institute of Library Information Professionals was concerned that the term “comprehensive and efficient” is not included in clause 2. It also suggested that the clause should make reference to the standards set out in the document ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’.

949. Last week, departmental officials said that if standards were included in legislation, the Department would have to go through the whole legislative process in order to upgrade or amend them. The officials said that using the term “comprehensive and efficient” would not be particularly meaningful, and that it has set out what it means by “a comprehensive service” in clause 2(2)(a). However, the officials also said that they would be prepared to reconsider the issue.

950. I draw members’ attention to the memo from Julie Mapstone, which reinforces the points that she made at the evidence session. The memo states that:

951. “It was considered inappropriate to legislate for efficiency. The service will be measured via the standards set out in Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries and through additional targets which may be set from time to time,”

952. It seems reasonable not to include standards in legislation, as they can change with time. For example, on a different subject, charges for fishing licences are not included in primary legislation because they change through time and are, therefore, dealt with under secondary legislation.

953. Are members content with the Department’s position on that issue? Do members want to ask the Minister to include the phrase “comprehensive and efficient”, or to specify standards in clause 2? That would run contrary to the advice from the Department. Do members wish to further question the Minister on this clause?

954. Mr McNarry: There was good reason for the term “comprehensive and efficient” to be included in the Bill, mainly because we are the legislators; we will not write the Bill, but we, or whoever follows us, will be the fall guys for anything that goes wrong.

955. If one is to believe the leaks that are coming from another Committee, which deals with water, the amazing figure of 40% efficiency savings will be used as a means to pay for that Department’s proposals. An efficiency saving of 40% seems to be immense, and if you were to ask the electorate, their major criticism would be focused on the efficiency of the system and the civil servants and people who service the Assembly. I am keen to keep the word “efficient” in the Bill because if we take a backward step on efficiency, we will slide.

956. Mr Brolly: People referred to operational matters outside the legislation, and that should have been raised at the time. I have made the point about whether the new library authority should be an institution or an operation. Fundamentally, we want a library operation. We have all expressed concern that the proposed centralised library authority might live in an ivory tower and that it would be clinical, losing touch with the people who most need the service. Operational matters should definitely be part of the legislation. The absence of the words “comprehensive and efficient” from the legislation cannot be used as an excuse for operational matters not being covered.

957. The Chairperson: From time to time, the Department advises the Committee that certain matters will be covered in the rules of operation. David McNarry and Francie Brolly want “comprehensive and efficient” written into the legislation.

958. Mr McCausland: I support that.

959. My other point is on the suggestion that the standards that are set out in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ should be drafted into the Bill. I accept that the legislation would have to be changed to reflect basics, such as targets. Is there a halfway house that allows a mechanism for the Assembly to have influence over standards so that they cannot be arbitrarily changed by the library authority, without its taking the Assembly’s views into account?

960. Mr D Bradley: In its response, the Department said: “Having to legislate for efficiency is a little strange, because one would expect that to be monitored anyway.”

961. Are there any indications of how efficiency will be monitored? The Committee needs to know the answer to that.

962. The Chairperson: The Department said that it will judge efficiency against the standards set out in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ and through additional targets, which may be set from time to time. That is not a firm answer. Do you have a question for the Minister?

963. Mr D Bradley: How will efficiency be monitored, and by whom? Education, for example, is monitored by the Education and Training Inspectorate, which is independent from the Department of Education. That can give an objective view of what is happening in schools and colleges.

964. The Chairperson: Does that inspectorate have any jurisdiction over Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure matters?

965. Mr D Bradley: Only in as far as that a school library can be assessed as part of a school inspection. The inspectorate can assess the range of books available, how often the library is used by pupils and how well it supports learning in the school.

966. Mr McCausland: My question for the Minister is: is there some way of having influence over changes that might be made to the standards? Dominic Bradley’s point is about how the standards will be measured.

967. Mr D Bradley: My question is: how will the standards monitored and by whom?

968. The Chairperson: Those questions will inform the Committee’s approach to its engagement with the Minister next week. Are we happy to move on to clause 3?

969. Mr McNarry: As we are going through the Bill line by line, can I ask you to re-cap what we are happy with when we decide that we are happy with it?

970. The Chairperson: I will do that: we will ask the Department to include the words “comprehensive and efficient” in the Bill; and Committee staff will capture the spirit of the questions that we are raising today to ensure that we ask them of the Minister next week. Do members agree that we want the term “comprehensive and efficient” to be included in the Bill?

Members indicated assent.

971. The Chairperson: NIPSA was concerned that clause 3 might not allow the library authority to co-operate with other bodies. Last week, the Department said that the legislation allows the library authority to make partnership arrangements as it sees fit; NIPSA disagreed. In response to a question raised by Nelson, the Department said that independent libraries, like the Linen Hall Library, would still be able to apply to the Department for funding. I refer to Julie Mapstone’s memo. She explained that clause 2(3) of the Bill gives the library authority the power to co-operate with other bodies and to develop partnership arrangements. That includes the Linen Hall Library. For information, that library is a private subscription library, which operates under a scheme framed under the Educational Endowments (Ireland) Act 1885, a very archaic piece of legislation.

972. Mr McCausland: It is an archaic place.

973. The Chairperson: Clause 8 gives the Department power to continue paying grants for library services provided outside the library authority. That would include the Linen Hall Library.

974. Mr McCausland: That is fine.

975. The Chairperson: Are any members of the Committee collectors for the Linen Hall Library? I know some people who collect for it; Councillor Tom Hartley does.

976. Mr McCausland: He has made a collection for it; a very large and sad collection.

977. The Chairperson: Are members content with Department’s position on the issue? Do members wish to ask the Minister to amend the clause or are they happy to move on. I see that members are happy to move on.

978. Clause 4 gives libraries the power of authority to undertake commercial activities. The Chartered Institute of Library Professionals was concerned that clause 4 implies that libraries will be judged on their commercial success. Last week, the Department said that this provision is included in the current legislation and that it is not a new thing. It explained that it allowed the libraries to sell local books or to run coffee shops. The Department confirmed that the performance of libraries will not be measured by reference to their commercial activities. That seems a reasonable explanation.

979. Are members content with the Department’s position on this issue?

Members indicated assent.

980. The Chairperson: Clause 6 refers to charges for certain library services. All the witnesses were concerned that clause 6 does not guarantee free core library services. Some suggested that core services should be defined in the clause. In relation to clause 6(2), NIPSA was concerned that there was scope for discrimination if different people were charged different costs, depending on their locality or circumstances. I remember that you posed that question, Dominic.

981. Mr D Bradley: Yes.

982. The Chairperson: Last week, the Department said that the legislation was intended to simplify the existing statutory provision for charging. It pointed to the explanatory and financial memorandum of the Bill, which states that core services will remain free of charge. The Department said that it would consider amending the clause and asked the Committee to suggest proposed wording. I refer members to an extract from the current legislation, which deals with charging for library services. It specifies where charges can be made. The Department’s proposed legislation turns that around, specifying where charges cannot be made.

983. Do any members wish to propose alternative wording or a different approach?

984. Mr McCarthy: My recollection is that all the witnesses thought that the wording was not strong enough, and even the Department’s officials appeared to agree with that. I do not have alternative wording. However, if any other member has a strong wording, he should suggest it.

985. The Chairperson: You want it specified in the Bill that “core services shall be free.”

986. Mr McCarthy: Absolutely. No messing about.

987. The Chairperson: Yes, Kieran, you have quizzed every witness on that point.

988. Mr McCausland: The best form of words was produced by the witness from the Chartered Institute of Library Professionals.

989. The Chairperson: We will have look at that evidence and form of words in order to incorporate Kieran’s sentiment. Are members agreed that we take that approach?

Members indicated assent.

990. The Chairperson: The Department offered an explanation for different charges for different persons’ circumstances and localities. The Department said that that reflects current practice, whereby, for example, senior citizens and children do not pay fines, whereas adults do. However, the Department could not provide an explanation for why people in different localities would be charged differently. The Department agreed to come back to the Committee on that matter.

991. I refer Members to the memo from Julie Mapstone. Julie explains that in respect of locality, some public libraries have rooms that are let to the community for meetings and events, charges may differ depending on the size of the room, the demand in a particular area and whether the users are from commercial or voluntary bodies.

992. Mr D Bradley: Should a regional library authority not have regional charges?

993. Mr McCausland: In Belfast, a library in, for example, Ligoniel would charge a different rate for the hiring of a room than would Belfast Central Library, which could charge more because of its city-centre location, and the increased value added by that location. Therefore, flexibility is important.

994. Mr D Bradley: New ageism legislation may be relevant in regard to not charging fines for children and senior citizens. For example, the Southern Regional College has increased its fees because it is not allowed to charge pensioners less except on the basis of the benefits that they are in receipt of. Given that that legislation applies to the Southern Regional College, would that not also be applicable in this instance?

995. The Chairperson: That is a good question which will be recorded and put to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure during next weeks’ meeting.

996. Mr Shannon: To elaborate on Dominic’s point, it would be wise to have a Province-wide charging system. Nelson’s point is valid: hiring a small room or a large room will incur different charges. Is there a way to implement a Province-wide charging system that is in proportion to the size of the rooms that are to be hired? Is there the scope for a system that would be the same whether in Londonderry, Newry, Strabane or Newtownards? Charges must be similar across the Province.

997. The Chairperson: Do you take Nelson’s point about charging differently for rooms in Belfast?

998. Mr Shannon: Yes.

999. Mr McCausland: The rental of an office in Belfast city centre is more expensive per square foot than in somewhere such as Ballysillan. There must be flexibility because otherwise money may be lost.

1000. The Chairperson: Do you accept that, Jim?

1001. Mr Shannon: That puts a different light on the matter. The situation in the centre of Belfast will be different to that in Ballywalter.

1002. Mr Maskey: It is a difficult issue. The charge could not be calculated per square foot because that could not be written into legislation. A library should set out standard charges from an early stage. However, those charges would go up on a yearly basis; therefore a certain degree of flexibility should be included.

1003. Mr McCausland: There is the competition factor: if someone wants to rent public space in a library in Belfast city centre, he or she has the choice of the Linen Hall Library or Belfast Central Library, and there will be competition between those two for certain events. The money will go back into the library, so its users will benefit, and it is not in the libraries’ interest to charge themselves out of the market, so librarians should be trusted in that regard.

1004. Mr Shannon: It may be possible to put like with like: similar charges for a library in Strabane and a library in Newtownards would make sense; it would not make sense to charge the same for a library in Belfast and one in Ballywalter — where there is no library, of course. A library in the centre of Belfast could not be compared with a library in Newtownards or in Strabane.

1005. Mr D Bradley: Are there plans for a library in Ballywalter?

1006. Mr Shannon: Not that I am aware of.

1007. The Chairperson: Do you want it written into the legislation that there should be a library in Ballywalter?

1008. Mr Shannon: No, I will not make that claim.

1009. The Chairperson: If there are no issues regarding the different wording then we will move on, however, questions will put to the Minister next week.

1010. Schedule 1 to the Libraries Bill concerns membership of the library authority. The majority of witnesses agreed that a board of between seven and 14 members was too small. Witnesses were concerned that the Libraries Bill did not require elected representatives or unions to be represented, or to be on the board, and that geographical representation was not assured.

1011. Last week, the Department said that the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments has a tendency to recommend smaller boards, which is advice that the Department is following. The Department explained that the library authority will not need many subcommittees. However, it said that the Minister is prepared to reconsider the number of board members. Does the Committee feel that there should be more board members than the current provision of between seven and 14?

1012. Lord Browne: Although the board should be kept small, the suggested number of members is too small. I recommend approximately 20 members, but do not recommend expanding the numbers much more; otherwise, they would affect effective efficiency.

1013. Mr K Robinson: I agree with that. I have been a member of an education and library board, like yourself, and know the subcommittees that are set up, which put quite a strain on members, particularly if they are trying to cover a wide geographical area or, as in this case, a sub-regional area. I agree with Wallace’s recommendation of roughly 20. I feel strongly that elected representatives and union representatives should be on the board. I am worried about “the great and the good” from the public appointments point of view, but the number of those people available must be running out.

1014. The Chairperson: Maybe some of those people are on several bodies.

1015. Mr D Bradley: At last week’s Committee meeting, when I asked Ms Mapstone whether she had any evidence that smaller boards were more effective and efficient, she said that there was no evidence to that effect.

1016. Mr McCarthy: I support what Wallace said; the board should be a bit bigger because, as members know, it is difficult to get a quorum in any situation. Also, elected representatives should be on the board.

1017. Mr McNarry: What category of elected representatives do Committee members mean?

1018. Mr K Robinson: I meant elected representatives at council level, including those from the new councils in whatever form that they take. I certainly did not mean folk from this august Assembly.

1019. The Chairperson: We are talking about members of local government authorities.

1020. Mr McNarry: I thought that that was what was meant. Any changes to local government through RPA must be considered.

1021. Mr McCausland: I am fully supportive of that proposal. If a 20-member board is opted for, how many members from local authorities should there be, and how would they be selected?

1022. Mr K Robinson: That issue was touched on before, and we thought that a body such as Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) could co-ordinate the selection process.

1023. The Chairperson: The Committee will conclude on the matter in a second. Ken, will you think about formally wording an insert for the Bill about elected representatives and unions representatives being on the board?

1024. The Department said that advertisement and criteria for board members would ensure that appointments were based on merit, and would specify the experience required. The Department also said that it will try to attract applications from a wide range of people. The Committee has suggested that the Department includes a clause, which states that the board must be totally reflective of society, as is the case in the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission. The Department said that it would consider that.

1025. Does the Committee want the requirement that the board reflects the composition of society to be written into the Bill? Also, does the Committee want the requirement of elected representative and union representation on the board to be expressly included in the Bill?

1026. Mr K Robinson: I support a requirement for elected representatives and union representatives to be on the board. I have a difficulty with what constitutes being reflective of society; sometimes I see bodies that certainly do not represent society in my area.

1027. Mr McCausland: I favour the idea of the board being reflective of society. The problem is that these boards take reflective to mean getting representatives from east and west of the Bann, who are protestant and catholic, and are male and female, and leave it at that.

1028. Mr K Robinson: It finishes up as a strange box.

1029. Mr McCausland: As the composition of these bodies is usually made up of “the great and the good”, the east-of-the-Bann representation tends to solely consist of people who live in North Down. Given the cultural nature of this body — the cultural importance of libraries has been stressed — it should reflect the cultural diversity of Northern Ireland, and not end up filled with middle-class and upper-middle-class Anglo-Irish types from North Down.

1030. The Chairperson: Could you be clearer? [Laughter.]

1031. Mr D Bradley: Would you like to name those people?

1032. The Chairperson: Is this Committee a North-Down-MLA free zone? [Laughter.]

1033. Mr McNarry: Sometimes, where I live is included in North Down.

1034. Mr McCausland: That is because you are a snob. [Laughter.]

1035. The Chairperson: Do you speak for Peter Weir on the matter?

1036. Mr McNarry: Yes. [Laughter.]

1037. Mr McCausland: He attempts to speak for Peter Weir.

1038. Mr D Bradley: All areas will be represented, except North Down.

1039. Mr McCausland: Precisely; all areas will be represented, except North Down.

1040. The Chairperson: We are agreed on the need for elected representative and union representation on the board. We will have to consider further whether the clause should include reference to the fact that the board must be fully reflective of society.

1041. Mr Shannon: That would obviously include rural areas. Nelson’s point is very valid, and many of the representatives of the boards made that point when they appeared before the Committee. Those of us who represent rural areas are very conscious of that as well. It is important that the rural community is not forgotten about to the advantage of urban dwellers. I mean no offence to those who live in urban areas, but it is important that we ensure that there is a balance.

1042. Mr K Robinson: In particular, the Southern Education and Library Board seemed to be very fearful of that happening, and I can understand its concerns.

1043. The Chairperson: Of course, the Western Education and Library Board would cover a very rural area, too.

1044. Mr McNarry: I have a suggestion that I feel would be useful, and I wonder whether the Committee would agree. Could there be some form of user representation on the new board? Many such boards do not have any user representation.

1045. Mr McCausland: Any councillor who would sit on it would be a user.

1046. Mr McNarry: That may be so, but I am thinking in particular of the elderly, who frequently use libraries. It would be nice for them to have a voice.

1047. Mr D Bradley: The Committee may recall that, some time ago, I asked whether there was any representative body for library users. I believe that the Committee Clerk reported back that there was not. Therefore, that might create a difficulty.

1048. The Chairperson: Were you surprised that there was no such body?

1049. Mr D Bradley: Yes, I was. I thought that there would have been a group that represented readers and library users.

1050. Mr Brolly: Could the new library authority consider setting up such a group? That would be useful to the authority for the purposes of consultation — it could consult the group on issues — and for the purposes of information-gathering.

1051. Mr McNarry: That would be very useful.

1052. Mr McCausland: The number of people who actually attend meetings of consultative panels is small. For example, we have such a panel in Belfast, and although over 40 people may be invited to attend a panel meeting, we are lucky if four turn up.

1053. The Chairperson: There needs to be emphasis on getting feedback from users in some way or another.

1054. Mr McNarry: Such a group would provide a means of channelling users’ complaints and requests. As elected representatives, we hear from users that their local library service does not supply such and such. It would be better if there were a voice to represent those views. I take Dominic’s point, but it would be better if such a voice could be found.

1055. Mr McCausland: I know that this is an operational matter, but one approach might be for the library authority or local library service to hold meetings with users in a given area twice a year. The readers could be invited to attend that meeting when they come in to borrow their books. That situation would be easy to manage.

1056. The Chairperson: I feel that if departmental officials were present, they would suggest that that be put in the explanatory and financial memorandum, where the rules of operation are listed. It would not be linked to —

1057. Mr McCausland: I am not suggesting that for a moment.

1058. Mr McNarry: My constituency office is beside Newtownards Library, and we get a lot of people coming in —

1059. Mr Shannon: Looking for books. [Laughter.]

1060. The Chairperson: You hear people’s views.

1061. Mr McNarry: They are looking for the truth.

1062. The Chairperson: That is valuable.

1063. Let us move on to paragraph 1 of schedule 3, which refers to “Tenure of office.” NIPSA stated that the chair of the board should only be allowed to hold that office for a maximum of two terms. Last week, the Department said that it agreed with that. However, it feels that the matter should not necessarily be included in the legislation; rather it believes that it should be included under the rules of operation for the board. Is that adequate?

1064. Mr McCausland: Will the library authority draw up its own rules of operation or will the Department draw up those rules?

1065. The Chairperson: We will have to record that question. It is another query about who will do what.

1066. Members will note that paragraph 6 of schedule 1 to the Bill deals with secondments. NIPSA was concerned that the legislation might permit secondments from the Civil Service only, and that it would exclude the schools’ library service and the education and skills authority. Last week, the Department pointed out that paragraph 5(1)(b) of schedule 1 permits the authority to have such employees as it sees fit to have, which includes seconded staff as well as direct recruits.

1067. The Department also highlighted clause 8(1) of schedule 1, which permits the authority to provide assistance to persons as it sees fit. The Department clearly stated that there is no attempt in the legislation to deny secondments, particularly from the education side and the schools’ library service. The Department explained that Civil Service secondments are specified because they may not have been allowable otherwise.

1068. As that appears to clarify the legislation on secondments, are members happy to move on?

Members indicated assent.

1069. The Chairperson: Schedule 2 deals with staff transfer schemes, and I remind members of our earlier discussions on seeking a final view from the departmental solicitor’s office. Paragraphs 13 and 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum detail the start-up costs and estimated savings involved. Many witnesses were concerned that the start-up costs are inadequate and that the Department has overestimated the savings that can be made. Last week, the Department did not adequately explain how the figures for start-up costs or savings were calculated.

1070. The Committee wrote to the Department seeking detailed answers, and I understand that its response is due tomorrow. I suggest that members await that before deciding to pursue the issue of costs with the Minister. Members who are not content with that response may wish to ask the Minister to amend the explanatory and financial memorandum to provide a more realistic estimate of costs and savings.

1071. Mr D Bradley: Did you skip a page? Did we cover all the points on the staff transfer scheme?

1072. The Chairperson: Yes, I think so, but tell me why you think otherwise, Dominic.

1073. Mr D Bradley: I do not remember covering all those points.

1074. The Chairperson: I moved through them swiftly because I have a time-management plan for the rest of the meeting, but let me know if something jumps out at you.

1075. Mr D Bradley: We need to cover some of the legal issues.

1076. Mr K Robinson: Further to Dominic’s point, we do not want to sleepwalk into creating a situation similar to that of the classroom assistants at some stage in the future. Therefore, when we revisit the staff transfer scheme and related issues, we must be extremely careful not to set a precedent that could hang, draw and quarter one group or advantage another. We went through the staff transfer scheme fairly quickly, and, therefore, we must revisit it.

1077. The Chairperson: I agree. Given that much has already been said about reaching a proper conclusion on the legal advice, it is an extremely difficult area. However, we agreed earlier to revisit the matter, as Ken and Dominic suggest.

1078. Mr McNarry: As two items — the legal report and start-up costs — have been identified as requiring further discussion, it may be prudent to suggest that the Committee does so before meeting the Minister. I cannot understand why the Department’s reply will arrive tomorrow, given that its officials know that the Committee is meeting today, and I find that unsatisfactory.

1079. All the witnesses who were questioned on the subject made it clear that they did not consider the start-up costs to be adequate, and that will become a major issue. Therefore, if you permit it, Chairperson, we should meet earlier to go through whatever correspondence we receive from the Department as a Committee, rather than as individuals.

1080. If we have evidence that the new authority cannot be established for the cost estimated in the Bill, we would be foolish to state that we will proceed with it — and the evidence of everyone that we have asked is overwhelming. It is a major issue, particularly because we are heading towards the Budget. Are we to allow a Minister to submit bids and compile budgets on the basis that we, as a Committee, do not think that he has enough money? It seems that the Executive do not have enough money to do anything.

1081. The Chairperson: What do you suggest is the way forward?

1082. Mr McNarry: The jury is out on the subject, because we do not have the necessary information. Can we meet half an hour earlier next week, before our meeting with the Minister, to come to a conclusion, as a Committee, on costs?

1083. The Chairperson: OK. That is what we will do.

1084. On David’s point about discussing certain issues “in Committee”, I am disinclined to go down that route. An open Committee is open to the public.

1085. Mr McNarry: I meant that the Committee should gather earlier. I do not want to remove the issues from the public domain, or from Hansard. Perhaps Hansard’s services can be arranged for that earlier meeting too.

1086. The Chairperson: Thank you. That is fine; let us move on.

1087. The need for an advisory council to the authority is not in the Bill. The Library and Information Services Council suggested that an advisory council should be established to support the authority. Last week, the Department said that it had considered that option, but that creating a separate body would involve considerable expense and that it would have recurrent costs. The Department suggested that a better option would be for the library authority to develop strong links with other public library services, as detailed. That seems to be a cost effective solution. Members will note also that only the Library and Information Services Council suggested establishing an advisory council. Are members happy to move on?

Members indicated assent.

1088. The Chairperson: The timing of creating a library authority is also not in the Bill. Members and witnesses are concerned about the timing of creating a new authority, particularly in relation to the establishment of the education and skills authority and staff morale.

1089. Last week, the Department said that the Minister will discuss the matter with the Committee when he comes to give evidence on Thursday 18 October. What are members’ views on the timing issue? When does the Committee think that the library authority should be established? That could be as soon as practically possible or at the same time as the education and skills authority. Are there any views on that?

1090. Mr McNarry: We need to tie that down. The Minister must tell us his view, and we can decide whether we agree with him. To leave the issue hanging in the air does not seem sensible to me. The Committee must consider RPA, the Budget and the many pressing issues that will come on top of that issue.

1091. At one stage, the Minister indicated to the Committee that he would establish the authority, and it was not very important. Suddenly, he sped the matter up. There must be a reason why he is pressing ahead so quickly. It is probably because he is spending money on employing people in an authority that does not yet exist and for goodness knows what other reasons.

1092. The Committee needs to tie him down. It is not for the Committee to stipulate when it wants the authority to be established. We need to ask the Minister when he is going to do it, and we can decide whether that is right or wrong.

1093. Mr D Bradley: It is probably impossible to synchronise the establishment of the library authority and the education and skills authority. It seems to be desirable that the two bodies be established in as close a time frame to each other as possible.

1094. The Chairperson: OK. The Committee can raise the matter again next week. Are members agreed?

Members indicated assent.

1095. The Chairperson: Links with the schools library service and the Department of Education are not in the Bill. Some witnesses and members were concerned that literacy and life-long learning programmes would be impaired by splitting the public library service from the Department of Education. There was also concern that the links with the schools library service would be endangered.

1096. Last week, the Department said that it was in regular contact with the Department of Education on issues relating to the creation of the library authority and the education and skills authority to ensure a common approach to staff transfer. Officials said that in relation to links between the library service and the Department of Education on, for example, the Bookstart programme, the Department would ensure that services continue and that service-level agreements could be established with the education and skills authority. Are members content with that response? Do members wish to press the Minister to address any of those issues by including them in the Bill?

1097. Mr McNarry: I am reasonably satisfied that those issues are not included in the Bill. However, I need more guarantees from the Department. For the Department simply to say that it will ensure that this or that will happen is not good enough, particularly on the links between the library authority and the education and skills authority. I want those assurances to be strengthened through some sort of written agreement that the Department will be tied to, so that, at least, the Department can be held accountable for its actions.

1098. The Chairperson: OK. Is that agreed?

Members indicated assent.

1099. The Chairperson: The sub-regional structure is not in the Bill. Members and witnesses have expressed concern about whether the library authority will have a sub-regional structure and, if so, what form that structure will take. The Committee wrote to the chief executive designate to ask for an update on her progress in establishing a sub-regional structure. A response is expected tomorrow. As David will be glad to hear, Friday follows Thursday.

1100. Last week, the Department said that it sees the sub-regional structure as an operational matter. When the Department says that, one knows that it does not want the matter to be reflected in legislation. The Department does not want the sub-regional structure to be reflected in legislation as it considers it to be an operational matter.

1101. The Committee suggested that contact and interaction with local authorities could be written into legislation. The Department said that it would consider that. Do members wish to pursue the matter with the Minister and suggest that he specifies elements of the sub-regional structure of the authority in the Bill, or are members happy that it remains in the rules of operation? Shall we consider that matter and return to it next week?

1102. Mr McNarry: May I ask a naïve question? The matter may have been discussed when I was out. The problem is that the Committee does not have clear indication of what the operational structure will be. Will all those promises be built into it? The Committee must tie down the Department. Is it the right time to ask the Department how far it has got with the operational structure, what it is and whether it can give the Committee a blueprint of it? The Committee has gone blind on that matter.

1103. The Chairperson: OK.

1104. Mr D Bradley: If the sub-regional structure will not be specified in the Bill, the Committee must have sight of the chief executive designate’s proposals for it. At present, the Committee has not heard anything about the structure, and it has not taken shape. The Committee must have an idea of what it will look like when it is completed.

1105. The Chairperson: The Committee must get more than a promise about the inclusion of the sub-regional structure in the rules of operation. We must have sight of the proposed rules. Is that correct?

1106. Mr D Bradley: I would not go that far. However, the chief executive designate of the education and skills authority has provided the Committee with the operational structure of that body. The Committee must also see the sub-regional structure of the library authority.

1107. Mr McCausland: It seems that the sub-regional structure will end up being local officers or managers for particular council areas. Those people will represent the library service at community planning meetings. Is that sufficient local input, bearing in mind that although there will be councillors on, for instance, a 20-member board, they will not be able to reflect the interests of different communities in that council area? It would not be possible for one individual to do so. Even if there were councillors on the board, it may be that there are none from a particular community.

1108. Although there is a need for a library authority that will have a co-ordinating role between libraries, is the Committee satisfied that there is sufficient local input in the library authority that is envisioned? In a sense, the Committee was bounced into accepting a single library authority at first, because it had been put through quickly in the Chamber. Is the Committee satisfied that the current vision for the library authority provides enough local input, or should there be a single library authority that has a strategic role and a much more enhanced role for local authorities than simply to attend community planning meetings? That question has not been answered.

1109. The Chairperson: The local dimension troubles everyone who sits around the table. We do not believe that it is adequate.

1110. Mr McCausland: Now is the time to deal with it. We can tinker around with details on other matters. However, we must answer that question.

1111. Mr D Bradley: The Department is basically saying that there will be a local officer who will have input into community planning?

1112. Mr McNarry: That is what we think.

1113. Mr McCausland: We do not know that for certain. However, it could not be anything more than that. Will there be a local board in each area in the same way that there is a library committee? Will the officer meet with councillors in the area?

1114. The Chairperson: Those are key issues for the Minister.

1115. Mr McCausland: Yes. In a sense, the onus has been put on Irene Knox who introduced the sub-regional structure. It is a damning indictment of the people who came up with the scheme years ago that they never even considered introducing a sub-regional structure.

1116. Mr McNarry: That brings us back to the fact that there is a great need to see the operational structure, or even to see a draft of it. It worries me that if that work is not done, what are we buying into?

1117. Mr K Robinson: The actual model has yet to be determined. The departmental response on 4 October states: “Perhaps, later on, we will talk about exploiting the subregional nature of libraries”.

1118. That should worry us all, as it is so vague.

1119. The Chairperson: Does the Committee wish to write to Irene Knox to request a copy of the operational structure?

1120. Mr McNarry: No, we can ask the Minister next week. We can put him on the spot then.

1121. Mr McCausland: It may seem that we are being cantankerous at this late stage. The problem is that all of this was done during direct rule when there was no opportunity for proper input and scrutiny.

1122. The Chairperson: We have every entitlement to request to see the structure.

1123. Mr Brolly: Nelson is saying is that the library authority was in place before we had any opportunity for input. There is an obvious anomaly, because the idea of a library authority was to centralise the library service, and what we are talking about now is how best we can decentralise it. We will probably end up believing that we would have been better to stick with the education and library boards.

1124. The Chairperson: The location of the library authority headquarters is not mentioned in the Bill, and some witnesses and members were concerned about that.

1125. Mr K Robinson: Would you favour Omagh, Chairperson?

1126. Mr McNarry: I want to put in a plug for Newtownards: the new headquarters should be in Newtownards. [Laughter.]

1127. The Chairperson: East Antrim lacks public-service jobs.

1128. Mr K Robinson: Yes, East Antrim is very low down the list of priorities.

1129. Mr McCausland: Jim, get in quick with Ballywalter.

1130. Mr Shannon: I would vote for Newtownards. I would support my colleague in his bid for Newtownards.

1131. Mr McNarry: There is a majority of three for Newtownards.

1132. Mr Shannon: As long as it is not Omagh.

1133. The Chairperson: Last week, the Department informed the Committee that the chief executive designate and her team would move to temporary premises in Lisburn in November.

1134. Mr McNarry: Is that at the Maze?

1135. The Chairperson: Maybe it is at Long Kesh. [Laughter.]

1136. The Department is waiting for final advice on the location of public-sector jobs before making a decision on the headquarters’ location. However, it is interesting that the team is moving to Lisburn in the short term. Are members content with that response or do they wish to pursue that matter with the Minister? Is the Committee content that the location of headquarters will be put into the context of the location of public-sector jobs?

1137. Mr P Maskey: What constituency does the Minister represent?

1138. The Chairperson: That is a good point.

1139. Mr McNarry: The point is that the Minister has said that the headquarters will not be a huge building, but I do not know of any small buildings in Lisburn.

1140. Mr P Maskey: They could use the Minister’s constituency office.

1141. Mr McCausland: Or maybe they could use Ulster Unionist Party headquarters?

1142. Mr McNarry: Aye, we have a big building in Lisburn.

1143. The Chairperson: Last week, the Committee suggested to the Department that the legislation should include a provision making it the responsibility of the library authority to ensure that there is a collection of relevant material that may be described as being of national importance. Nelson raised that point, and departmental officials said that they would consider the matter. A memo from Julie Mapstone explains that for such collections held by public libraries, there is a need to set the collection of materials relating to one subject or region in the context of the requirement set out at clause 2(2)(a) for the library authority to make available: “library materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children.”

1144. That includes materials for lending and reference purposes to facilitate research and study. Senior library staff would judge how collections should be developed, bearing in mind their library budget.

1145. Mr McCausland: Is that Julie Mapstone’s answer to that question? I do not think that that is much of an answer, because, at present, that does not happen. We have left that duty with librarians, but nothing has happened, so how do we ensure that it will happen in the future?

1146. Mr D Bradley: The definition in clause 2(2)(a) could be interpreted in a very narrow way.

1147. The Chairperson: It is minimal.

1148. Mr D Bradley: The definition could be interpreted in that way — just what is necessary and no more.

1149. The Chairperson: It is very minimal and provides food for thought for the session with the Minister.

1150. Mr K Robinson: We must have a more comprehensive look at the Bill. There is a lot of material that a librarian might know about today, but he or she may well retire rather than deal with the new system. A new librarian may come in and look at the dusty old store and decide to clear it out. The whole archive could go, and that might include very important material for a district, a part of society or whatever. We must insist that that is a very important part of the role of a public library. Not only should there be public access, but there should be the realisation that librarians are holding history in their hands. Libraries hold much more than material: they hold social and individual history. Nevertheless, I have seen documents being sent to the shredder many times.

1151. Mr D Bradley: There may be a need to expand clause 2(2)(b)(ii) of the Bill to ensure that it is not given a minimalistic interpretation.

1152. The Chairperson: In the absence of any dispute, we will agree to seek further discussion on clause 2(2)(b)(ii).

1153. The Northern Ireland Publications Resource has established a non-statutory national bibliography by collecting all locally published material since 2000 — this is all very interesting. That is the Linen Hall Library collection and the Belfast Central Library.

1154. Mr McCausland: It is across all libraries. The weakness with is that it applies to locally published material. For example, I know that the founder of Los Angeles was born Belfast, and a book about him was published in America — because the book was not published here, it has not been collected by the Northern Ireland Publications Resource. A huge number of stories are missing.

1155. By the way, you might be interested to know that the founder of Los Angeles was educated at a Christian Brothers School in Dublin.

1156. The Chairperson: That is not so bad. That is very magnanimous of you, Nelson. [Laughter.]

1157. Have any of the libraries collected any books on the Fintona tram?

1158. Mr McCausland: I am sure that you would find something in the Linen Hall Library.

1159. The point is that the collection facility needs to be more comprehensive than that provided by the Northern Ireland Publications Resources: we are losing the diaspora element about people from here. Many American tourists trail round the Linen Hall Library on a wet day trying to find information. There should be information of wider significance and not just locally published material.

1160. Mr D Bradley: What document are you reading from? We do not appear to have a copy of it.

1161. The Chairperson: Are members content with the information provided by the Department, or will we pursue the matters as Nelson described? We can pursue matters further next week.

1162. Mr McCausland: Is there consensus that we should broaden our vision beyond locally published material? What about information published in Glasgow or Dublin? We should not just have locally published material.

1163. The Chairperson: OK: so that part should be reworded or reconsidered.

1164. Mr D Bradley: Libraries should seek information that is relevant to our local situation.

1165. Mr McCausland: Absolutely.

1166. The Chairperson: This part of the meeting has come to a conclusion.

18 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

1167. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): The meeting is open to the public.

1168. The earlier starting time was agreed because the Committee needed time to prepare before taking the Minister’s evidence on the Libraries Bill. The Minister, Edwin Poots, is due around 10.45 am. Hansard will be in attendance at that session and this one. We need to discuss a number of issues and to agree our position and the line of questioning that we wish to pursue with the Minister.

1169. The first issue is start-up costs. Many of the witnesses were concerned that the start-up costs specified in the explanatory and financial memorandum are inadequate. The figure has been put at £670,000. In a consistent line of questioning, led sometimes by the Deputy Chairman, we have asked about start-up costs.

1170. The Committee wrote to the five education and library boards and the two unions asking them to estimate those costs. Responses have been received from three of the boards and from UNISON. UNISON states that it is not in a position to estimate costs. The Western and South Eastern Education and Library Boards have provided a breakdown of the areas that need to be costed; however, without knowing the staffing structure of the library authority and other matters, they say that they cannot provide estimated figures. The Western Education and Library Board indicated that the cost of releasing one chief librarian under the 104-week scheme would be at least £120,000. The North Eastern Education and Library Board has provided costings under separate headings — its estimated total for start-up costs is £1·5 million. That is more than double the amount that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) has set aside. The Southern Education and Library Board had no comments, but said that it agreed with those made by the western board. The boards all referred to the Deloitte report, which indicates start-up costs of £965,000 in respect of support services; these also need to be taken into account as part of the overall start-up bill.

1171. Other evidence that the Department may have underestimated start-up costs comes from the bids made in the October monitoring round. The Department submitted a bid for £550,000 to cover corporate services. The Committee wrote to the Department on 1 October 2007 pointing that out and asking whether it acknowledged that its original estimate was inadequate and whether it intended to alter the explanatory and financial memorandum accordingly.

1172. We also asked whether the Department has made any provision for start-up costs beyond 2007-08. The response, dated 16 October, advises that anticipated expenditure on start-up costs — comprising salaries for the chief executive designate and her team, temporary premises and consultancy — amount to £350,000 up to the end of March 2008. There is a lot of detail about what we have discussed so far.

The Department also advises that:

“Ahead of a firm decision on the operational date for the Library Authority, we cannot be sure whether £670k is an under- or over-estimate; it will depend on the length of the start-up period and hence the length of time salaries and rent need to be paid. The proportion of these costs which fall in 2008-09 will be considered within the Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR) allocations.”

1173. The Department was asked to say whether it would consider amending the explanatory and financial memorandum in the light of the issue around start-up costs. It has not answered that question. It refers to paragraph 14 of the explanatory and financial memorandum, in which it is noted that the Department:

“was undertaking an exercise to establish the options for future provision of corporate services to the Library Authority and the associated costs, both running costs and start-up costs. Figures for these start-up costs were not specified in the EFM because it was not possible to make an estimate until this exercise had been completed.”

The Department advises us that:

“The October monitoring bid for £550,000 for corporate services is to enable us to move ahead on establishing corporate services in this financial year if required. Start-up costs for corporate service provision which fall in 2008-09 will be considered within the CSR.

You also raise two other possible areas of start-up funding: for establishing the identity of the Library Authority, and for a redundancy scheme. An exercise to develop certain identity measures for the Library Authority is being considered at present. The case for redundancies will be considered in the light of the organisational structure which the Chief Executive (designate) is working on with senior library staff. This consideration will include the extent to which a redundancy scheme offers value for money.”

1174. The key question this morning — and I do not think that I will get a “yes” to it — is: are members content with the Department’s response? Members will have the opportunity to discuss these issues with Minister Edwin Poots this morning. Does anyone want to make an initial comment?

1175. Mr McNarry: From where I am sitting, the answer to your question is no. How deliberate or penetrable can we be with the Minister on this? We have asked the question — we know the answer. How big a point are we allowed to make? What the Department is telling us is a joke. It says that £350,000 has been set aside for something that is not in place yet, allowing this chief executive designate to recruit, to secure temporary premises and so on. Are we to believe that that is what start-up costs are about? Then it goes on to say that it does not know what the start-up costs will be. How clear do we have to be, as a Committee, in bringing our views to our colleagues in the Assembly on this matter?

1176. Mr P Ramsey: I will do my utmost to be brief in questioning the Minister. However, there are a series of questions about consistency that I have asked the boards and that I propose to put to the Minister as well, particularly in relation to the provision of services and a range of other areas, such as literacy, the early-years programme and support services.

1177. Mr McCausland: I wanted to ask a question about provision for the idea of a national library or reference library. In addition, are we convinced that a single library authority, as currently envisaged, is the best model and that it provides local input? We touched on that in our discussions on subregional structure, but perhaps we are not pushing it hard enough. We need answers because it is a process that we were not involved in.

1178. Mr P Ramsey: Those are good questions.

1179. The Chairperson: There is a series of other issues —

1180. Mr McNarry: If I am reading the material correctly, the draft Budget will be launched in the Assembly on 25 October. Hip hip hooray. Where do we sit on that, Chairman? As a Committee, what is our position regarding that Budget? I am not deeply appreciative of the UNISON letter, but it is to the point in that it says that the union does not have the information to be able to provide the Committee with estimated start-up costs. That sums up my view; I do not have the information to be able to tell myself.

1181. However, the draft Budget will be published soon. What is the Committee’s job regarding that? Do we point out to the Department that as a result of the draft Budget, the departmental budget regarding start-up costs is up the shute?

1182. Mr P Maskey: The Committee will not get the chance to address those issues until 15 November 2007. The Minister said in his letter that he is happy to come back and discuss the detail of the draft budget proposals for DCAL on 15 November. It will already have gone through at that time. Therefore, by 15 November, it will be a bit late.

1183. The Chairperson: Let us focus on the questions that we are going to ask the Minister regarding the Libraries Bill. David, I presume that you are going to go strong on the start-up costs?

1184. Mr McNarry: With the indulgence and help of the other members, I certainly want to take up the issue of start-up costs. I also want the legalities of this issue to be examined. Following the episode in the House on 16 October 2007 regarding legal issues, I want to be absolutely clear what the Committee’s position is.

1185. Mr McCausland: Regarding the start-up costs, the letter from the Minister states:

“The anticipated expenditure on this group of start-up costs up to the end of March 2007 is £350,000.”

Therefore, what the Minister is saying is that it depends on how fast people move. The assumption was that there was a start-up date of next year. The figure has now to be amended because the library authority has asked for extra money. Whether that extra money is actually needed depends on how quickly the authority can get up and running. How did the Department manage to get it so badly wrong?

1186. The Chairperson: That is a good question. It does seem badly wrong.

1187. Mr McCausland: Yes. I was watching the Committees at Westminster the other night on television. We are quite gentle; they are savage people.

1188. The Chairperson: There are honourable exceptions. Some people are tough enough here as well.

1189. Mr McNarry: We should pretend that they are the Northern Rock boys sitting facing us. That is the Committee that I was watching, and I thought that it was brilliant.

1190. Mr McCausland: It was like blood sport.

1191. The Chairperson: Good luck to both of you.

1192. We will move on to detail the second general issue that we will be considering with the Minister this morning, which is the estimated savings that are specified in the explanatory and financial memorandum. The estimated savings are £0·6 million for 2009-10 and £1·2 million for 2010-11. Witnesses are concerned that the Department is overestimating the savings that can be made, and underestimating the start-up costs.

1193. The Committee wrote to the Department asking for a breakdown of the savings. The Minister stated in his response that:

“No further breakdown of the estimated efficiency savings is available. The estimate was not based on specific costings; therefore, it will not commit the new Library Authority to particular decisions. Projected savings on administration and possible surplus premises will become clearer when the organisational design and staffing structure of the Library Authority is determined.”

1194. The Committee’s letter of 8 October 2007 asked the Department to provide a detailed explanation of how the estimated savings for the library authority were calculated, with a breakdown of the £0·6 million for 2009-10 and the £1·2 million for 2010-11. The Department responded, stating that:

“Estimates of efficiencies were required in 2006 for the Reform Programme, which anticipated savings in administration from the RPA, and transferred to the planning exercise for the Comprehensive Spending Review. The estimate for efficiencies —£600k for 2009-10, rising to £1.2 million in 2010-2011 — was based on a set of assumptions, which were set out in earlier correspondence to you, related to merging 5 library services into one. It was recognised that it would take time to deliver on efficiencies, and none were taken for 2008-9, the expected first year of operation of the Authority.

The estimate was not based on specific costings and therefore does not commit the new Library Authority to particular decisions. The savings are separate from the additional monies which will be required by the Library Authority to cover the corporate services functions.

Projected savings on administration and from possible surplus premises will become clearer when the organisational design is determined.”

1195. Members may wish to ask the Minister to remove from the explanatory and financial memorandum the claim that efficiency savings will be made, given that the figures are not based on any specific costings and that the Department will not commit the new library authority to particular decisions. Have members any comments on that?

1196. Mr McCausland: The Committee received that letter only this morning. It says that the figures were set out in earlier correspondence, but it does not give the date of that correspondence. How are we meant to know what it said?

1197. Mr Shannon: I would like to see those figures on the first- and second-year savings. I believe that they were £0·6 million and £1·2 million. Is that right?

1198. The Chairperson: That is correct. The estimated savings are £0·6 million for 2009-10 and £1·2 million for 2010-11.

1199. If there are no other questions, members will want to focus on that second broad area, using their own initiative and instinct. Those broad areas and the suggested questions will all inform the Committee’s approach.

1200. The third issue is schedule 2. After last week’s meeting, a copy of the NIPSA legal paper was passed to the Department for onward transmission to the departmental solicitor’s office. A response was requested from the departmental solicitor’s office for today’s meeting.

1201. The Department has provided a response advising that it separately requested the legal paper from NIPSA and that it is seeking a meeting between its legal adviser and that of NIPSA to discuss differences of opinion. The Department states that politeness demands that it waits for a reply from NIPSA and that time must be factored in for any meeting to take place before the Departmental Solicitor’s Office official will be in a position to respond.

1202. Mr McNarry: That is a time bomb, and the Department is playing pass the parcel with it. If I remember correctly, the Committee agreed — although I disagreed — that it would furnish departmental officials with the information that it had. I understood that there was urgency surrounding that, and I would have thought that the discussions that must take place between the two legal gentlemen were a done deal.

1203. I do not want the Committee to get involved in a legal wrangle without knowing what it is doing. What advice is the Committee being given that would indicate whether or when it would be necessary to get its own legal advice to ascertain which of the two eminent lawyers is correct? The Department’s lawyer is saying that he is right; the other is not saying that he is wrong, but the issue is hanging in the air, and it is a game of pass the parcel. It is a time bomb, unless we get it right.

1204. What I mean is that I see no sense in the Committee taking the risk to approve a Bill when it has evidence that the Bill may be sufficiently flawed that, as soon as it hits the streets, the Department will be taken to court. I am not prepared to do that. I am prepared to take certain risks, but that is a risk too far. I cannot, as a Committee member, pass a Bill knowing that there is already a legal challenge waiting outside the door.

1205. At present, I am not satisfied that the situation has been dealt with.

1206. The Chairperson: The fourth, broad area for scrutiny is the number of board members. Last week, Ken Robinson proposed that there should be 20 members, which achieved consensus around this table. It is thought that 20 members is a reasonable number. However, the Bill specifies that there should be a minimum of seven and a maximum of 14 members. How does the Committee propose to deal with that?

1207. Mr K Robinson: Last week, we exercised the argument that given that the Committee wants to achieve geographical spread and range of interests, the practicalities of board meetings and the certainty that subcommittees will need to be set up in order to deal with issues such as finance. I still maintain that a membership of around 20 would allow for geographical spread, a range of interests and will allow the board to carry out its functions more effectively.

1208. The Chairperson: Have members any further views on membership of elected representatives? The Committee has agreed that the board should include elected representatives — whom we understand to be members of local government authorities, such as councillors — and union representatives. Members are asked to consider further how many of each should be on the board. Does the Committee recommend, for example, that they should make up a third of the board’s members?

1209. Mr K Robinson: The document suggests that elected representatives and trade union representatives should each make up one third. I am not sure that I totally agree with that.

1210. The Chairperson: Mr McCausland, perhaps you would agree that that should not be prescriptive.

1211. Mr McCausland: I would not want that to be prescriptive. If the board is to be locally accountable, local authority members should make up a substantial section. There are a range of other interests. Is there a suggestion that trade unions should make up a third?

1212. Mr K Robinson: Yes. That seems too high.

1213. Mr McCausland: That is far too high.

1214. Mr Ramsey: There has been discussion on whether the subregional mechanism will be made up of offices or a structure. That must be completely clarified. The Committee does not know whether there will be a board in each region.

1215. The Chairperson: That is another key area. I am not surprised that you have raised the issue of the subregional structure, Mr Ramsey, as you are bound to be concerned about the north-west.

1216. Mr Shannon: Obviously, the number of members who are councillors will depend on the size of the board. If there are 20 members, as the Committee would prefer, perhaps three or four elected representatives would be appropriate. If the Minister holds firms to his proposal of seven to 14 members, where does the Committee stand on that? Obviously, the board’s size will affect what the membership should be from councils.

1217. The Chairperson: It is useful to challenge every aspect of that.

1218. Mr Brolly: I can envisage difficulty in there being a clash between achieving the desired geographical spread and having a workable, viable number of members.

1219. I do not know how a third of councillors could be selected and how it would be decided which areas would be represented and which would not. We should consider the use of some of the representative bodies of councillors, such as the National Association of Councillors (NAC) or Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA), on the board to represent councils and keep the numbers of board members down.

1220. Mr McCausland: I am not in favour of those organisations being represented. The NAC is a strange body at the best of times and its role is not quite the same as NILGA. Furthermore, there is a range of opinions across councils about the strengths or otherwise of NILGA.

1221. Mr Shannon: Not everyone has that opinion; some councillors may be happy with NAC.

1222. Mr McCausland: Yes, but its role is concerned with the rights of councillors. It is a trade union for councillors.

1223. The Chairperson: Mr Ferguson is a champion for councillors.

1224. Mr Brolly: A solution is needed in which councillors are represented, without having all the councillors there or having to choose which councillors are represented.

1225. The Chairperson: The general consensus is, without being prescriptive, to uphold the important principle of local accountability of and representation by elected representatives — councillors.

1226. I refer members to the table in their pack, which gives details of the Committee’s position on the issues of concern that we wish to raise with the Minister. I expect Kieran McCarthy to zone in on clause 6(1), which refers to free core services and charging. Other members will, of course, want to talk about that issue, but Kieran has been pursuing it rigorously in successive weeks.

1227. Mr Brolly: Are we looking at the questions, or at the issues of concern on the Libraries Bill?

1228. The Chairperson: I have to go through a long introduction into the general themes that are being raised this morning.

1229. The Department said that it would be prepared to consider amending clause 6(1) and it asked the Committee to come up with alternative wording. The suggested wording was proposed by the South Eastern Education and Library Board (SELB).

1230. The Committee Clerk: Nelson McCausland referred to a form of wording, which might be acceptable, that one of the witnesses proposed.

1231. Mr McCausland: Yes, a man from the professional body proposed it, but I cannot remember what the form of words was.

1232. The Committee Clerk: The wording that we have lifted came from the South Eastern Education and Library Board, but if there is another form of wording, we can use that.

1233. Mr McCarthy: The wording used by SELB is fairly strong:

“the Authority may not make any charges”.

That reflects the Committee’s view on the matter.

1234. The Chairperson: Do you think that the wording used by the South Eastern Education and Library Board is strong?

1235. Mr McCarthy: Yes, I think that it is. It covers all of our concerns.

1236. Mr McCausland: Can we compare it with the wording that the other individual, to whom I referred, came up with? The wording may be similar.

1237. The Chairperson: Do you want to do that now, or revisit that shortly?

1238. Mr McCausland: We can revisit that.

1239. The Chairperson: Obviously, we need to strengthen the wording.

1240. The Chairperson: I remind members, prior to the arrival of the Minister — which is scheduled to happen in the next five minutes — that you are required to declare any interests that are relevant to the Committee’s consideration of the Libraries Bill. Those will be recorded in the minute. Members should also note that they are required to declare an interest when asking a witness a question that might related directly to that interest. Again, I state that I am a member of the Western Education and Library Board.

1241. Mr McCausland: I am the Chairperson of a board of school governors. However, since we work under the aegis of the boards, I have to declare that.

1242. The Chairperson: I know. I will work my way around the table and ask members about their interests. David, do you have any interests?

1243. Mr McCausland: I am Chairperson of the BELB library committee and am a member of the board of governors of three schools.

1244. Lord Browne: I am on the board of governors of two schools.

1245. Mr K Robinson: Similarly, I am on the board of governors of two schools.

1246. The Chairperson: Pat, have you any interests to declare?

1247. Mr P Ramsey: I have no interests to declare.

1248. The Chairperson: Francie, do you have any interests to declare — apart from your genius?

1249. Mr Brolly: No one is interested in me.

1250. Mr Shannon: I am on a board of governors. I am not sure if it is necessary to declare that, but I must tell you about anything that I think might be relevant.

1251. The Chairperson: Shall we focus on Mr Shannon rather than the Minister?

1252. Mr Shannon: He is on the big money.

1253. Mr D Bradley: I am a governor of a primary school.

1254. The Chairperson: Members should also be advised that we will have welcome assistance from the Bill Office. Intervention is always welcome. We are ready to speak to the Minister if he is ready to speak to us. We can chill out for a minute.

1255. Mr Shannon: I have a young fellow with me who is on work experience. He is here to see how the Assembly and, in this case, the DCAL Committee works.

1256. The Chairperson: He is welcome.

1257. Mr Shannon: He is shadowing me for a week, and, so far, he has had a busy time.

He knows how hard I work. Ask him afterwards.

1258. The Chairperson: Nelson, the Committee staff are trying to locate the wording that you felt strengthened the point.

1259. Mr Shannon: Next Thursday is Budget day. This Committee is also scheduled to meet then. How will members juggle those commitments?

1260. The Chairperson: It will be difficult. I will take advice from the Committee Clerk about other Committee’s plans. Members of this Committee may have strong opinions about what should or should not happen on Thursday. I understand that the Programme for Government, the ISNI and the Budget are to be discussed in Committees next Thursday.

1261. Mr McNarry: It will only be the commencement of consultation on the Budget. There will be no vote or major debate about the Budget statement, which will be followed by a one hour discussion about what has been said.

1262. The Chairperson: David, do you think that the Committee could run alongside the plenary session?

1263. Mr McNarry: It might be a problem for management. The decision to hold the meeting will be a matter for the Committee members. If we attend the Committee meeting, we will have to rely on Hansard in order to find out what happened in the plenary sitting.

1264. Mr P Ramsey: Next Thursday will be the first time that Members will have a chance to discuss the Budget and the comprehensive spending review. It would be inappropriate to hold a Committee meeting at that time.

1265. Mr McNarry: I agree with that. Kieran McCarthy sits with me on the Business Committee, and it might benefit members of the Committee to check with their party Whips to find out which party members will participate in the Budget debate and to arrange for all parties to have a fair chance in the time allocated. That is the best way to approach the matter.

1266. The Chairperson: What is the Committee Clerk’s advice?

1267. Mr McCausland: The Budget statement is scheduled to take place between 10.30 am and 11.30 am —

1268. A Member: No, there are two —

1269. Mr McNarry: A debate on the Programme for Government will be tabled tomorrow.

1270. The Chairperson: Replies to the Budget statement take the form of questions rather than debate.

1271. Mr Shannon: Will there be an hour set aside for that?

1272. The Committee Clerk: There will be one hour set aside.

1273. Mr Shannon: David’s point is valid. Obviously, each party will have its pecking order for speakers. We could attend the Committee and other people could ask questions in the Chamber.

1274. The Chairperson: The Committee meeting will therefore run alongside the plenary session; although, members might get distracted for other reasons and have to go to the plenary session.

1275. Mr McCarthy: The Budget is important. Could the Committee meet on Tuesday? I know that that would put pressure on staff, but Tuesday seems to have been forgotten.

1276. The Chairperson: The Minister will be attending the Committee on Thursday of next week.

1277. A Member: Other Committees will also be meeting on Tuesday.

1278. The Committee Clerk: Next week, the Minister will be attending in order to discuss the Irish language.

1279. Mr McCausland: There is nothing to discuss about that.

1280. Mr Shannon: The discussion is over.

1281. The Chairperson: That will happen next week. Are there any other items on the agenda, or is that the only subject for the Minister to discuss?

1282. Mr Shannon: David is right about the speaking order in the Chamber following the Minister of Finance and Personnel’s statement about the Budget, and, given that the Minister will be coming, I suggest that we go ahead with the Committee meeting. In order to ensure that we have a quorum, members should indicate whether they will be able to attend.

1283. The Chairperson: Next week we will continue our ongoing discussions on the Libraries Bill. As scheduled, we will hold the Committee meeting next Thursday. Members must do their best to attend.

18 October 2007

Witnesses:

Mr Edwin Poots		The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Colin Jack		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Ms Irene Knox		Proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority

1284. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure, Edwin Poots, to this morning’s Committee meeting to discuss the Libraries Bill. I do not think that Mr Poots plans to make a statement. Is that the case, Minister?

1285. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure (Mr Poots): I have a speaking note.

1286. The Chairperson: The session will take the form of questions after you have made your introductory statement. I welcome your senior colleagues, Mr Colin Jack and Ms Irene Knox.

1287. Mr Poots: I thank the Chairperson and members for inviting me to address the Committee on the Libraries Bill. Officials from the Department spoke to you recently, and since then I have passed information on to the Committee. I am aware that you have some outstanding concerns, and I hope that some of those concerns can be addressed today.

1288. The deliberations of the Committee have caused us to look carefully at the legislation and our approach to it. It is worth noting that I remain convinced that this is the best model for the Library Service. The public Library Service is not one of the big beasts of public expenditure — schools, hospitals, roads and social security fall into that category. Nevertheless, it is a key service that has the capacity to contribute significantly to quality of life. It differs from much specialised public provision at this time; it is universal and not targeted; it is driven by the user and is not monetary; it is free at the point of use for its core services; and it can be adaptable and flexible, modifying services to meet new demands or changes in modern society. Despite being a relatively old service, those attributes make it acutely modern and useful in these changing times, and puts it in a position to support a range of other priorities — economic, educational and community development.

1289. A good public library service is the mark of a civilized society. How it is run and the quality of a library service says something about the values of the society it serves. The amalgamation of Northern Ireland’s five library services into one service is primarily about improving the quality of the service to the public.

1290. A single library service is in a better position to establish partnership arrangements with other bodies to ensure relevance. I can ensure equity of provision across Northern Ireland; that should enable the transmission of best practice, so that all areas come up to the same level, namely the best. The library service should be able to raise its profile and market itself appropriately.

1291. The library authority and its board will have sole responsibility for the library service alone, ensuring that it is focused and undistracted by other matters. Compared to other services in the UK and Ireland, this is an innovative idea, which has excited interest elsewhere — as the Committee will know from some of the evidence that has been presented to it.

1292. I want to address the timing of the establishment of the library authority. The extension of the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill now makes establishment impossible to achieve by April 2008. I have been considering the implications of that in a new timetable. I have also listened to the views of stakeholders in the education and library boards, who recognise that the two services, education and libraries, are separating, and though their preference is to move at the same time, they accept that that may not be possible. Their chief concern is that the processes for the transfer of staff are common and developed at the same time in order to minimise disruption to the boards and ensure that all staff are treated equally.

1293. My Department has taken those considerations on board and is working closely with the education and skills authority (ESA) implementation team and the Department of Education to ensure commonality of approach. A mid-year start poses practical difficulties for the library authority in the 2008-09 financial year, not least with corporate and financial issues and reporting. I have, therefore, decided to put back the date for the establishment of the new authority to 1 April 2009. That is a later start than I had intended, and there will be some cost implications as a consequence, but it reflects the views expressed to me about the technicalities of moving ahead.

1294. I intend to proceed with the appointment of the board of the library authority as soon as possible after the passage of the legislation so that it can operate in shadow mode from the middle of 2008-09. That would allow the authority to prepare fully for the transfer of powers and ensure the board’s full involvement in the preparation of the authority’s first corporate plan.

1295. I am happy to listen to the views of the Committee and answer questions.

1296. The Chairperson: Thank you, Minister. Some interesting news has been brought to the table this morning.

1297. Lord Browne: I welcome the Minister. Clause two of the Libraries Bill deals with the duty of an authority to provide a library service. Many people have expressed considerable concern that the standards expected of an authority in providing such a service have not been specified in the Bill. In particular, they have pointed out that the words “comprehensive” and “efficient”, which are used in the current legislation, do not appear in the new Bill at all. The Minister’s officials have already explained to the Committee that they did not regard the words “comprehensive” and “efficient” as meaningful; in their opinion it would be unusual to legislate for efficiency. However, the Committee is generally agreed that those words should be included in the Bill. We feel particularly that efficiency should be made clear in this piece of legislation.

1298. What are the Minister’s views on this matter?

1299. Mr Poots: I am happy to consider your suggestion. Terms such as “comprehensive” and “efficient” add meaning, so the Department will be happy to examine that. The Committee Stage of Bills is about identifying those kinds of issues. The Department will examine that, and we will come back to the Committee on it.

1300. Mr P Maskey: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I wish to ask some questions on efficiency savings. As you have said, you intend to postpone the establishment of a library authority until April 2009. How will the efficiency of the library service be monitored, and who will monitor it? Will it be monitored by an independent body?

1301. The Committee recognises that it would be inappropriate to include standards in the legislation, because if the Department wanted to amend those standards it would have to go through the entire legislative process again.

1302. However, is there some way in which the legislation can provide for the Assembly to have a role in approving changes made to performance standards set for the library authority?

1303. Mr Poots: Ultimately, the library authority will have a chief executive who will report to the Department’s accounting officer — who is the permanent secretary. The permanent secretary will report to me, and I will report to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, on behalf of the Assembly. Those are the normal accounting mechanisms that are in place for a public body. I am satisfied with those mechanisms, without going out to an independent body. If you find that accountancy procedures are not working out, people may be asked to come before the Public Accounts Committee, something which has been done in the past. Once again, that is provided for in the current Assembly. That is a fallback position for dealing with those who do not adhere to good financial strictures. I am satisfied that we do not need to have an independent body over and above the current arrangements.

1304. Ms Irene Knox (proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority): With regard to standards, the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ policy framework currently contains standards. Standards must be continually reviewed. What is appropriate now may not be appropriate in a year’s time or in two years’ time. One of the things that I would like to lead, in the new library authority, is a continuous improvement process. I am happy to liaise with the Committee with regard to standards that have been established for the current Library Service, and standards that we will need to look at in the future. There is a role for the Committee, the Department, and consumers of the Library Service to determine throughout that process the standard of performance to which the Library Service should adhere.

1305. Mr P Maskey: Therefore, the Assembly has no role in approving changes?

1306. Ms Knox: There is a role for the Assembly, through the Committee. I will report on standards and the Committee will comment on whether those standards are appropriate or not. Standards would then be revised as a result of discussion and consultation.

1307. Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): The current policy framework for the Library Service was drawn up in 2006 after quite a lengthy period of consultation on a previous document. We expect to update and revise the policy framework and standards every few years. As part of that process, the Department will be working for the Minister. We would expect the Minister and the Department to bring proposals for any revised policy framework to the Committee for consideration. That is the way in which the framework for accountability will work in the future.

1308. As well as that, I expect that once the library authority is established that the Committee will be in a position to call the chairman of the library authority to account — accompanied by the chief executive — with regard to their corporate plans. Therefore, there would an opportunity for direct accountability between the Committee and the library authority.

1309. Mr P Maskey: I do not want to labour the point. However, is there any way that that process, as you have described it, can be strengthened through legislation. It is OK to say, at the present stage, that there will be an opportunity for direct accountability between the Committee and the library authority. However, the Committee could be by-passed on any decision that has already been made. It may be all right for us to request a role, but it does not mean that our request will be granted. The Committee wants its role in the process to be strengthened, somewhere in the legislation.

1310. Mr Poots: I ask the Committee to be cautious about what they are asking for, in that instance. If the Committee want to put the process into a legislative framework, it will bind the flexibility of the process. We have a system whereby, if changes were to be introduced, the natural thing — and the way in which the Assembly operates — is that those changes are reported to the relevant Committee by the relevant Minister. We engage in discussions such as those and try to reach a common sense approach, working with each other.

1311. If the process is put into legislation, the Committee will have to bid to enter those processes. It must be remembered that the current Assembly is in an early stage, and that there is not much legislation on the table as yet. I have no doubt that in two or three years’ time we will be wading our way through a pile of legislation. As a consequence of that, the Committee may want to see changes being implemented quickly. However, if the Committee has to bid to get into the legislative process for fairly minor changes, then real difficulties will be created in the flexibility of the process that we have.

1312. Mr McCausland: I want to pick up on the fact that there is no national library and that it would be unrealistic for a small place such as Northern Ireland to have one. However, my concern is that material relating not only to life in Northern Ireland and the province of Ulster but to the Ulster diaspora is not available for a range of reasons. The Northern Ireland Publications Resource was mentioned, but I understand that it collects only locally published material.

1313. Many books about emigrants from Northern Ireland, who have gone around the world and done various things, were published elsewhere and are not available here. People have to travel to a London library to access those books and make arrangements to borrow them. Could it somehow be included in the legislation that there should be a strengthened collection of material with specific relevance to Northern Ireland and the province of Ulster, regardless of where it has been published?

1314. Mr Poots: I am not sure whether that would come under legislation or policy, but perhaps Irene can brief us on that.

1315. Ms Irene Knox: I take on board Mr McCausland’s point. There is an onus on the library authority to collect material that is relevant to Northern Ireland. The difficulty with including something such as that in legislation is that it is not always possible to identify material unless someone points it out. Therefore, the authority could be placed in a difficult position should it miss a publication.

1316. However, the library authority will have a stock policy and a collections policy. Bear in mind that it will also have to develop a range of policies that are Northern Ireland-wide, and beyond. Mr McCausland’s point could be taken on board in the stock policy. It could include consideration also of how to make sure material is available, without always purchasing necessarily, for instance by collaborating much more closely with others to ensure the availability to people here of the materials that they need. Such collaboration could be with the Linenhall Library or Trinity College Library Dublin, which, as national library, collects a great deal of relevant material. Any such policy should ensure that there is no duplication but that there is access to whatever materials people need.

1317. Mr McCausland: I accept your point about collaboration with other libraries. The Mitchell Library in Glasgow is another that comes to mind, and other libraries in Scotland should also be considered. However, I am thinking about some form of words that would not necessarily tie the library authority to strengthening its collection, but allow it some flexibility and still serve as a constant reminder of the need to do so. In the past, when I raised the issue with various librarians, action was not always taken. It would be good to have a general phrase to stress the point, and perhaps something could be considered on that basis.

1318. Ms Knox: I am sure that the Department would be happy to consider it.

1319. Mr D Bradley: As an example of what Mr McCausland mentioned, part of the stock of the Irish and Local Studies Library in Armagh is being stored in the basement of library headquarters and, therefore, is not readily available to the public. Furthermore, that library is on the lookout for the type of material that Nelson mentioned earlier. How can we be sure that, under the library authority, such material will still be collected and readily available to the public?

1320. Mr Colin Jack (The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Should a specific aspect of collections policy be included in the legislation, it would tie the library authority to it. Potentially the library authority could find itself in court due to a failure to collect a particular piece of material. However, you would expect the strengthening of collections to feature strongly in the policy of the new authority and in any policy guidelines issued by the Department. We will reflect on the matter and see what we can come up with.

1321. Mr McCausland: Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to come up with a form of words to emphasise and focus on the issue without being prescriptive.

1322. Mr Jack: For example, the new library authority will want to work on that aspect in its mission statement and through the development of its first corporate plan. Those are all ways that we can consider.

1323. Mr McCausland: We should reflect on the terminology that was used in the old legislation on museums. They were to collect or have material relevant to the region. There is a growing emphasis on that in tourism and cultural connections around the world, even through Tourism Ireland. It is from that material that many of those ideas can be generated.

1324. Mr Poots: I am aware of the issue that Mr Bradley has raised, because it has been raised locally with me. There is an excellent stock of literature that is not being made publicly available, and we must look into that.

1325. Mr McCarthy: My question is about clause 6, and charging for core services. Many of the witnesses, if not all, were concerned that the current wording of clause 6 does not guarantee free core services. Your officials said that they would be prepared to consider amending the clause, and they asked the Committee to put forward alternative wordings.

1326. The Committee proposes the following wording for clause 6(1), which was originally suggested by SELB:

“The Authority may not make any charges for any library services provided by it”

— and this is new —

“including the borrowing of books and free access to information, except for —

(a) those services specified in a scheme of charges approved by the Department and published by the Authority; and

(b) the charges are made in accordance with that scheme.”

1327. First, what are your views on that form of wording?

1328. Mr Poots: This is the first time that I have heard that form of words, so I can give no commitment on it. In essence, it does not appear unreasonable. However, we will have to look at all the ramifications. We will take that away, consider it and come back to the Committee.

1329. Mr McCarthy: To follow on from that, clause 6(2) permits different charges for different persons, circumstances or localities. In relation to the question of locality, the Committee has considered the idea that there should be some thought given to producing a standard set of charges, which would apply throughout Northern Ireland. What are your views on that? Do you foresee any difficulties?

1330. Mr Poots: One of the reasons for introducing a single library authority is to have a service that is consistent throughout Northern Ireland, so that the user gets the same service in Castlederg as in Coleraine, and the same in Belfast as in Enniskillen. That is what we are aiming for. In my view, there would be no benefit in having different charges in different regions or parts of Northern Ireland.

1331. Mr McCarthy: Again, in relation to different charges for different persons, your officials explained that that referred to current practice, whereby children and senior citizens are not charged for late returns, whereas adults are charged. The Committee is aware of educational colleges who say that they cannot give a reduced rate to senior citizens as that is incompatible with legislation on ageism. Can you assure the Committee that the provision for making charges for different persons is within the law?

1332. Mr Poots: We cannot give you that assurance. We would have to get the relevant people to look at that aspect on our behalf. One of the disadvantages in pushing the whole issue of ageism may be that some of the benefits that older people enjoy at present may be denied to them in the future.

1333. Mr McCarthy: However, you agree that this is a very important question?

1334. Mr Poots: Yes, it certainly is.

1335. Mr D Bradley: I would like to comment on that. The issue that the Minister has just mentioned has come up with respect to provision of evening classes in colleges of education. In some cases, the privileges enjoyed by older people have been withdrawn on the basis of new legislation, which is supposed to protect them.

1336. When you are looking into the question, Minister, will you raise that issue with the Office of First Minister and deputy First Minister, with a view to retaining the protections that older citizens currently enjoy?

1337. Mr Poots: I am certainly happy to look at that. I must point out, however, that some of the wealthiest people I know happen to be over 65, and they do not necessarily need to have financial support to do those things. Others, who are younger, might have greater need.

1338. I am happy to discuss the issue, but we must bear in mind that it does not necessarily meet all the equality regulations that we have. In addition, there are probably older citizens who do not receive benefits and are, therefore, deprived of opportunities. It is not my Department’s responsibility, but perhaps we need better means of identifying people’s ability to pay for services. Some older people would not miss the money, while other people who are not on benefits might struggle to pay for some of the services.

1339. Mr Shannon: Minister, the Committee is asking for consideration to be given to the matter. I am aware that the Library Service in my constituency is mainly used by elderly people. They are not affluent people or millionaires with big houses; they are mostly people on benefits and income support, and money is not a luxury that they have.

1340. Mr Poots: Absolutely. People whose incomes are just above the level of entitlement to income support miss out on everything. That is an area that we really must look at.

1341. Mr Shannon: Kieran McCarthy is 63 at the minute, but he is chasing 65.

1342. Mr McCausland: He is a very wealthy man.

1343. The Chairman: Let us move on to one of the more youthful Committee members.

1344. Mr K Robinson: Thank you, Chairman. The brown envelope is on its way to you.

1345. Thank you, Minister, for your presentation. I noticed that, in your opening comments, you referred to the Library Service as being a key service that is universal and user driven. You said also that the society that it will serve will be reflected in its provision and that there would be equity of provision across Northern Ireland. Although I welcome those comments, the Committee has concerns about the number of members on the library authority board, about how that board will reflect society, and about the geographical spread from which members will be drawn.

1346. The Bill suggests that the board might have seven to 14 members. The Committee thinks that 20 or 21 might be a more realistic figure, based on the evidence that has been presented to it. We feel that that number would provide a better reflection of urban and rural areas and give a better social and geographical spread that would represent every section of society, whether they have or do not have money, such as those people on the Ards Peninsula to whom Jim Shannon referred.

1347. The Committee is concerned that local representatives — especially when the RPA creates new super councils — ought to be included in the new board. We are grateful that, under the education and library boards, local representation was well reflected and seemed to work well.

1348. Minister, will you review the number of board members? You referred only to audit and finance committees, but, if the board comprises only seven members, by my calculations, three and a half members will be on each committee. That is not an ideal situation. More committees and subcommittees will be required to enable the new authority to operate properly, but there will be too few members. Will you comment on that?

1349. Mr Poots: The original proposal for seven to 14 board members was based on advice given to the Department by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, which makes recommendations for the appointment of boards. That advice indicated that there is strong evidence of greater efficacy of a smaller board. Therefore, it was thought that a figure between seven and 14 would be the best model. I am open to the Committee’s views on the matter, particularly on how we might bring in the local-authority dimension and how we deal appropriately with that issue.

1350. There are questions about whether we should have people from local authorities on the board, which would not reflect the current trend in public appointments, whether we should go down the route of community planning, with special responsibilities associated with the new councils, about how closely the library can be linked with community planning, and whether there is another option.

1351. There needs to be further work carried out in order to identify whether there should be a number of councillors on the board. If there are to be seven councils, that would require seven more councillors. If there are to be 11 or 15 councils, every council would not be represented on the board. Therefore, those issues also have to be taken into account.

1352. The matter is still open for discussion. However, there should be a proper consideration of the community-planning responsibilities that district councils will have, and how that may feed into the library process in local areas.

1353. Mr K Robinson: We are mindful of the situation some years ago when local councillors were removed from the health boards. We are all aware of the disaster that eventually turned out to be. Therefore, that was one of the reasons behind our thinking that the board should have local political representation in order to give them a better steer.

1354. The Committee supports the merit principle, and we think that that is the way to proceed. However, the new library authority is in danger of becoming a rarefied body, in which all the professionals will be knowledgeable in their own particular subject areas, but may be oblivious to the comments that you made in your opening remarks about serving the wider society.

1355. Mr Poots: I am aware that local councillors, in particular, will bring a dimension to public bodies that no one else can — interactivity with the public. Public bodies are supposed to serve public interests, and I am aware of the role that public representatives, and particularly local public representatives, can have in bringing those public interests to mind.

1356. Mr K Robinson: The Committee is keen that the new library authority is structured in such a way as to allow it to operate and engage at a local level in a meaningful way — and I stress the term “meaningful way”. The chief executive designate of the education and skills authority (ESA) has presented its operational structure to the Committee for Education. Will the Minister provide this Committee with a copy of the proposed operational structure for the library authority? Furthermore, will there be a library board or a library committee — subregional, presumably — in each council area under the review of public administration (RPA) proposals?

1357. Mr Poots: Perhaps Irene could update us on that issue.

1358. Ms Knox: Work is currently under way to produce that draft operational structure. It is important that the people on the ground — the chief librarians, assistant chief librarians and other staff — who will need to have buy-in to this new authority, are involved in that process. I am working through that at the moment with them.

1359. I do not envisage that I will be in a position to bring that draft to the Committee until the middle or end of November. However, at the stage when I have a draft that has been discussed with the staff, I am happy to come to the Committee, via the Minister, with proposals for the operational structure of the new authority.

1360. Mr K Robinson: Thank you for that answer. I also thank the Minister for reviewing the timetable. That is helpful to the Committee, and I hope that it will be helpful to the new authority also.

1361. The Chairperson: Ken, you might agree that in a previous evidence session, the Committee did ask the question about the size of the board. There was no evidence presented that suggested that a smaller board would be more efficient.

1362. Mr Jack: We have an article that was written earlier this year by David Nicholl, who is head the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) in Northern Ireland. It rehearses the arguments regarding the size of boards and makes a strong case for a board having a maximum of 12 members. We can make that article available to the Committee to allow it to consider that point of view.

1363. The Chairperson: I welcome that.

1364. Mr K Robinson: If there is a board of 12 members and a subcommittee of probably six members — and it has to be considered that one or two members could be struck down by illness — how many members will be required to make a quorum? That figure would have to be extremely low. If that is the case, would it have the required representation?

1365. Mr Jack: The quorum would be likely to be low in comparison with the size of quorums of the much larger boards that exist in some bodies in Northern Ireland. However, the quorum would be expected to be approximately half the membership of the board.

1366. Mr K Robinson: I am concerned that people from Belfast area, for instance, would have to travel through Dungiven to get to the new board headquarters in Omagh or Londonderry. Adverse weather conditions, illnesses, and other factors could result in the board being inquorate at that stage.

1367. Mr Jack: One of the issues that Mr Nicholl raised in his article is about the onus on the board members to attend. If there is a small board then there is more of an onus on members to attend.

1368. Mr K Robinson: That does not account for adverse weather or illness. That has been pointed out to us in other places. In fact, the Scottish Executive, as some of us found out recently, have to make special arrangements to make sure that they are quorate for certain bodies.

1369. The Chairperson: We will welcome a copy of Mr Nicholl’s paper.

1370. Mr Brolly: My question is complementary to Ken’s. It is about geographic spread of representation, which raises some concerns. Your officials explained that the way in which the advertisement for the recruitment of board members is framed will be crucial in ensuring that appointments are based on merit, which is good, and that the recruitment documentation will be drawn up in such a way as to attract applications from a wide range of people. There should be something in there about the need to have a good geographic spread of people on the board.

1371. There is no guarantee that we will get people from all areas, and it seems that there is too much reliance being placed on the wording of an advertisement. Will the Minister consider stipulating in the legislation that the board must contain a good mix of people from different areas?

1372. The second question is about accountability prompted by Irene’s mention of consumers, who are a very important part of this. Will there be some mechanism for consumers to feed their views back to the library authority on the library service? Will the Minister consider setting up a users’ forum for the library authority?

1373. Mr Poots: With regard to geographical spread, I think that it comes down to appointment of members. If you do it on merit alone you run into problems, because you have to look at other issues. As far as geographical spread is concerned, that is where liaison with the local authorities or with the representation from local authorities may bring some benefits.

1374. In fact, I had to re-advertise the most recent appointment of new members to the Arts Council of Northern Ireland because, in terms of geographical spread, we did not get further south than Lurgan. There was some representation from Londonderry, but the south and west of the Province was wholly unrepresented, so I asked for those positions to be re-advertised, because of those concerns. Hopefully, applications will come in from those areas, but if they do not, we may have to re-advertise again to ensure that there is some equity across the Province and that things do not become city-centric. People in rural communities remain unrepresented on many of the boards across Northern Ireland. Again, I am not sure that we need legislation. We can have very clear guidelines and principles on a lot of those issues and identify the way forward.

1375. On the suggestion about a users’ forum, I think that that goes back again to community-planning issues that local authorities will be doing. I will be honest with you: I am not sure that we fully understand what community planning means. There are many different interpretations of what community planning might be. It is something for the Department of the Environment (DOE) to tie down, as part of the review of public administration, what community planning is going to mean exactly. I would have thought, Mr Chairman, that the issue that was being referred to with the end-users’ forum it something that is ideally fitted for community planning. That would be the best place for that to come from. I am open to the Committee’s views on that in due course.

1376. The Chairperson: Jim, you had a related question?

1377. Mr Shannon: Mr Chairman, I just want to make one point to the Minister. It is in relation to the number of board members. The reason that the Committee has asked for 20 members is really to do with the practicalities of calling a meeting. No matter how good you are, you can take sick or you can have family engagements. There are distances to cover and weather conditions to contend with. Is it not more sensible to have a committee structured around 20 members so that you can use the councillor-level representation as well as having a geographical spread of representatives, as Francie has said? That would ensure that you have a good mix of people to deliver the services. From a practical point of view, it is more sensible to have 20 members rather than seven or 14. If three people cannot attend, where are you then?

1378. The Chairperson: Nelson, I expect you to stand up for rural areas too.

1379. Mr McCausland: I was going to stand up for equality. What strikes me about representation on public bodies is that the only two bodies that are required by law to be reflective of Northern Ireland society are the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission, which does not speak very well for the requirements of the legislation, as neither body is particularly representative.

1380. However, there is merit in considering wording that says that the board should be reflective of Northern Ireland society, particularly as it is a cultural body, which should reflect our cultural diversity. Although that has not worked in the two cases I mentioned, I believe that it could work.

1381. Mr Poots: In relation to Mr Shannon’s point, it is fairly clear that the Committee wants to move to having a greater number than the one that is currently in the Bill. That will be looked at, but there are issues around having a bigger board.

1382. The old Fire Authority for Northern Ireland, for example, used to have a board, and perhaps the current Fire and Rescue Service Board still does, of around 19, so I will have a look at some of those boards and see how well they operate. I suffered the effects of a large membership when I was Chairman of the Committee of the Centre. A few people thought that, because that was the largest Committee, they did not have to pull their weight. Sometimes in a smaller group people are more focused and determined about the work that they have to do, whereas with a large group people think that someone else will do a job, and it end ups that no one does it.

1383. There are benefits in having a larger group, such as ensuring a quorum. However, I remember, quite often, at 2.00 pm on a Wednesday afternoon, at meetings of the former Committee of the Centre — with a membership of 17 — waiting for five people to turn up so that we could start proceedings. When I sat on the Committee for the Environment there were 11 of us, and it always started on time. People do not always take their responsibilities as seriously when there are others to share the load.

1384. The Chairperson: You could not accuse this Committee of not taking its work seriously, Minister. Wallace, you were going to make a related point.

1385. Lord Browne: It was on the equality issue. This Committee, being all male, is not reflective of females. Will there be any mechanism to ensure that they are equally represented?

1386. The Chairperson: Would you like to put your question about tenure of chair while you have the floor?

1387. Lord Browne: My next point is on the tenure of chair. This Committee, along with the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA), believes that the chair of the board should only be able to hold the post for a maximum of two terms — serving one term and then being re-appointed for a second term. Your officials agree with that, but it is not in the legislation. It is dealt with under the rules of operation of the board. Will the library authority draw up its own rules on the operation of the board, or should that be included in the legislation?

1388. Mr Poots: I thank bachelor Browne for his interest in the fairer sex on the issue of equality. [Laughter.] He obviously wants to keep in with them.

1389. It is probably better if we can set out very clear policies, as opposed to introducing a lot of that into legislation. I personally believe that legislation is not a very manoeuvrable beast; it is a large ship that requires a lot of turning. If policy documents are agreed through a system like this one, with a Minister reporting to a relevant Committee, that introduces a great deal more flexibility. Therefore, if changes happen in the future — and I do not think that there are any prophets in the room — you can address those changes and meet the challenges as they come along, whereas you cannot do that if everything is buried in the legislation..

1390. Mr McNarry: I welcome the Minister. Although it falls to me to say the following, my views are shared with the general consensus of the Committee.

1391. I want to deal with the staff transfer scheme in schedule 2 and then, separately, with start-up costs. Before I begin, I have to say that it is clear that we needed to have a discussion this morning, as well as questions.

1392. You appointed a chief executive designate who is, in turn, appointing designated staff. At the time, I said that that appointment was premature. You now inform us that the new authority will operate in shadow mode, as things have been put back until April 2009. It seems that my case is being made for me. It also appears that you are floating on the issue.

1393. That action introduces more uncertainty. Although it is good to identify issues now, it also explains why the Committee has found itself floating in an atmosphere of uncertainty about where we are going. Perhaps you will deal with our concerns about those shadow arrangements, because we need to know more about them.

1394. At this stage, I will not question your competency — you will make the decision. However, those decisions are bound to involve costs, and you are already frittering away money on a chief executive designate’s salary, and so on

1395. On the issues arising from schedule 2, Minister, your people asked to see the legal advice that we received, and we gladly passed that on. Following a delay, we were informed in a letter from your Department that, despite having received the legal advice, on the basis that the Department was unable to ask for it directly, your people had written to John Corey to request a copy of NIPSA’s advice on schedule 2 from its QC. The Department is now seeking a meeting between the Department’s and NIPSA’s legal advisers in order to discuss the differences in opinions. What possible differences in opinion do your people expect to find between the legal advice that we passed on and that which the Department is requesting now from the same QC— or is that just a delaying tactic?

1396. The letter continues that, until the Department has received the requested information and a follow-up meeting has taken place between NIPSA’s QC and Noel Kelly from the Department, and Noel Kelly has then reported to the Committee, you require more time and will not be able to respond to the Committee’s deadline. That was not really a deadline. It was a simple request, made last week, in order to have the information for today. You have not provided the Committee with any information. How do you expect us to proceed if we cannot investigate what we have identified as a potentially serious issue? Letters such as that cause us to be even more suspicious.

1397. The issue that we have flagged up is a serious contention that if the Bill were to proceed in its current form — and a senior counsel has told the union that is employing him that it would be flawed — there is every likelihood that that union, and perhaps others, will be in the courts.

1398. The Committee is very reluctant to accept only clear and concrete legal advice that we are not going to be agreeing to a Bill in the secure knowledge— or even in the doubting knowledge — that in taking it through the Assembly, it would be walking the Assembly, the Department and everybody into court because of the flaws in the Bill.

1399. It seems to us that this is a very serious issue. Also, Noel Kelly told us that he was right and therefore everyone else was wrong; he is an excellent person and I am not challenging his ability, but that is a concern. The Committee urgently needs to know the Minister’s take on that, in order to decide which legal opinion it accepts — Mr Kelly’s, that of the eminent counsel employed by NIPSA — or if it needs to hire, with public money, an independent legal opinion to explain the situation. That is a very important issue, which I ask the Minister to respond to.

1400. Although the Minister cannot respond to what he calls our deadline, when does he intend to respond to us on the issue, and how does he see the situation between the legal eagles and this Committee panning out? Many witnesses mentioned that there may be problems in categorising the current education and library board staff either as library authority staff or ESA staff because currently some staff salaries are part funded by DCAL and part funded by the Department of Education. How does the Minister intend to deal with that issue? Is it a major issue? Is it a serious issue? Can you expand on that for us?

1401. Mr Poots: I thank the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for his questions; he always adds to the colour of events and it is good to hear from him. Shadow boards do not operate in shadow mode, in the same way that the RPA spoke of putting shadow councils in place for a year. Shadow boards will deal with all the issues put before them and smooth the way so that whenever full responsibilities are transferred to the new board, it should be a seamless operation.

1402. I cannot be accused of creating uncertainty; I was aiming for 1 April 2008. I am no longer aiming for that date is because this Committee has extended its scrutiny process to eight months.

1403. Mr McNarry: So it is our fault?

1404. Mr Poots: I am making it very clear that I was aiming for 1 April 2008, which is now impossible because of the Committee’s decision to opt for an extension and take eight months to go over the legislation.

1405. Mr McNarry: Are you denying that the reason for the Committee needing more time is because of a failure to supply information by the Department, which has led to uncertainty over the legislation?

1406. Mr Poots: The legislation could have been dealt with more quickly — I have laid that fact on the table.

1407. The Chairperson: Minister, are you not being disingenuous? You said that the timetable had slipped prior to the motion for extension, and that it would appear some time between April 2008 and April 2009. You were not proscriptive or specific, but you did suggest that the timetable had slipped prior to the extension motion.

1408. Mr Poots: I certainly had not changed the date from 1 April 2008 at that time — I said that I would consider it. The extension of the Committee Stage from four months to eight months made it impossible for me to proceed before 1 April 2008. I am not taking any responsibility for any additional costs.

1409. Mr McNarry: The Minister should take responsibility for the appointment that he made, which was premature even for April 2008. That is the point that he fails to grasp.

1410. Mr Poots: The appointment was not premature. If you want to go into an operation in a seamless way that does not lead to a staff being undermined, adequate preparations must be made. The Deputy Chairperson may think that it is possible to build a house without any plans — that is not a wise thing to do.

1411. We were putting the plans and processes in place so that we could move forward smoothly and seamlessly, and in a way in which would cause fewest problems to the public and the people who provide the services. As a consequence of the new arrangements, we cannot not now proceed according to those plans. I could have footered around and perhaps suggested a vague date, say in July or October or another time. Instead, I have been very clear and definitive. I have said that the library authority will not be set up in April 2008, but that the date will be moved back a full year until April 2009, and that we will be ready to proceed in April 2009. That may present a challenge for the Department of Education; will it be ready to move with my Department? I remind members that it was the Department of Education that pushed the date back from April 2008 in the first place. However, we will be ready, and a board will be in place. That board will not cost a great deal of money to establish because shadow boards are not expensive to run. Thus, we will be ready to move ahead. I am not delaying or holding back.

1412. As regards the legal advice that was received, Government operate on the basis of legal advice that is provided to them by the Departmental Solicitor’s Office. We have to work within those confines. I have confidence in the Departmental Solicitor’s Office and in the advice that it gives to us. Often, we find that those in the legal profession have differences of opinion with one another. Half a dozen lawyers could be asked for an opinion on a particular case, and half a dozen different opinions would be given. It seems sensible to me to put the unions’ lawyer and the Department’s lawyer into one room to see if they can agree on a position — if that is possible to achieve. That is what we are doing. If an agreed position is reached, we will be in a good position to move forward, and we will report back to the Committee at the earliest opportunity.

1413. The Chairperson: David, are you satisfied with the Minister’s answer?

1414. Mr McNarry: I will not argue too much with him, but I am pleased to hear him say that it seems sensible to put the two lawyers in a room. It is a pity that it did not seem sensible to him a month ago. The problem seems to be that people could not even lift a phone to one another to say that they have a difference of opinion. Instead, an erroneous type of protocol had to be followed. The Minister talks about plans and business management and so on, but there is something lacking in a system if people cannot even lift the phone to talk to one another. Perhaps that is just how things are done.

1415. I also want to take the Minister up on another issue and defend the Committee. This morning, Minister, you announced your decision on the date of the establishment of the library authority. However, when the Committee asked the Assembly for an extension of Committee Stage, it was felt necessary to inform you that the Committee would report as soon as possible; we were informed that you wanted to hear that. Nevertheless, you have not waited for that. Since that day, you have given the Committee no further opportunities to see how it could move the programme on. You have now said to the Committee members that it is OK. Therefore, you have relieved us of the time pressures that were placing on ourselves. We said to you that we would report as soon as possible, but you have made your decision and you were obviously not prepared to wait to see how soon as soon as possible might be.

1416. Mr Poots: I do not assume that the Deputy Chairperson is going to tell me how long a piece of string is.

1417. Mr McNarry: That is an erroneous comment. The phrase “as soon as possible” was recorded in the Hansard report, and you should have allowed us the opportunity to at least try to improve on the matter, which is what we were trying to do.

1418. Mr Poots: I can set definitive dates only on the basis of the last definitive date that was given to me.

1419. The Chairperson: I want to focus Committee members’ minds on start-up costs and estimated savings.

1420. Mr Shannon: Minister, you have given us the start date for the library authority, which is 1 April 2009. Is it fair to assume that now that that date has been confirmed and you have a timescale to work towards, you have some idea of what the predicted savings would be? I appreciate the reply that you gave to the Committee, but it by no means ties down the figures. It refers to a figure over or under £670,000. The Committee is concerned that some of the savings could be made by reducing management-level staff at the boards. I am not sure how that would work. Have some backroom staff perhaps already been paid off? That is a matter of concern to the Committee.

1421. The witnesses who have appeared before the Committee have indicated that redundancy savings are not normally realised for two years.

1422. If that is correct, can you give a more comprehensive figure on what is going on? It has been intimated to the Committee that corporate services will be an ongoing additional cost for the new authority. With all those figures in the melting pot, the Committee deserves and needs an answer on the costs involved. The Committee has written to the Department seeking a breakdown of the estimated savings. Considering that the estimates are not based on specific costings and the amount of savings and staffing structure are unknown, can the Minister inform the Committee of the costs that will be involved?

1423. Mr Poots: The Department stated that it was seeking to achieve savings of £600,000 for 2009-10 and £1·2 million for 2010-11. Mr Shannon is right to state that there is an initial cost to achieving those savings, because redundancy packages usually amount to more than the individual’s annual earnings: a more attractive package will encourage people to consider redundancy. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure can apply for year-end flexible funding, which allows for one-off bids. Therefore, while there are real pressures on this year’s resource budget — and all Departments are finding it difficult — there will be opportunities to introduce funding to the Department through the end-year flexibility, and that money can be used for staff redundancies, for instance. There will be additional costs at the outset, but they will lead to savings in the longer term, and that is what we are looking to achieve.

1424. Ms Knox: If we are to make long-term savings in the administration of the Library Service, we must look at an invest-to-save approach — we must find money through the process that the Minister talked about. The Department must also have the funding required to release the staff at senior levels in current boards who wish to take voluntary redundancy, and that will, therefore, release funding in the longer term. I want to reinvest in front-line services. The whole point of having a single library authority is that we can streamline the administration and release funding into the front line. In order to do that, we must take an initial invest-to-save approach.

1425. Mr Shannon: When do you hope to have more concrete figures? Ms Knox, are you saying that you will not be able to provide us with accurate figures for some time?

1426. Ms Knox: There will have to be consultation with trades unions when the organisational structure is developed, because the new structure may well impact on current staff. Following that process, we will cost the structure, examine what savings can be released and consider how to do that and establish what initial investment will be needed to achieve longer-term savings.

1427. Mr Shannon: I asked my question because the Committee is not convinced that there will be savings: that is our worry. It has been intimated to us — right down the line — that there will be savings, but, from what I hear, I am not sure that there will. We would like to think that there will be.

1428. Mr Poots: The Department of Finance and Personnel has already agreed to the figures that will be involved if we go down that particular route. If we were to move away from those figures, it would only be with the agreement of the Finance Department. I assure the Committee that once the Finance Department thinks that it has got something, it is not keen to return it. Ultimately, savings have to be made, and they cannot be made in front-line services — they must be made through administration. I will be honest: it will cause difficulties, particularly for the people who work in administration, and I have no doubt that the unions will have difficulties with that. However, we, as public representatives, are running the country, and we will have difficult decisions to make. The unions are entitled to make their cases on behalf of the people that they represent, but if there are savings to be made, they will be made in administration and personnel. That is harsh, but it is the reality.

1429. The Chairperson: Does that mean that you will change the explanatory memorandum, Minister?

1430. Mr Poots: In what respect, Chairman?

1431. The Chairperson: I refer to the start-up costs that appear in the explanatory and financial memorandum. Would you like to take up that point, Mr McNarry?

1432. Mr McNarry: Will the explanatory and financial memorandum be changed to reflect more realistic start-up costs? Having heard about the new date, I assume that the staff involved will be aware of that as soon as possible, if they are not already. It will also affect their plans. It will have a major effect, particularly on those who face retirement or are thinking about it. I am sure that their concerns are uppermost in the Minister’s mind.

1433. Mr Poots: Yes.

1434. Mr McNarry: Has the Minister informed his Executive colleagues — in particular, the Minister of Finance and Personnel — about the new date? What bearing will shifting the date have on the start-up costs with regard to Budget bids, et cetera? The Minister has made an announcement to the Committee, which has come as a surprise. Until now, the Committee has worked on the basis that it had reasonable time to catch up with the Department.

1435. People who have given evidence to the Committee have referred to the Deloitte & Touche report’s estimate of start-up costs of £965,000, which goes against the Department’s original estimate of £670,000. The Committee still does not know where the estimation should sit. In fact, even the Department is not sure whether its original figure is an overestimation or an underestimation. Where will that estimation bounce to if the start date is April 2009? Where does the current bid for £550,000 for corporate services now sit? Surely the Department cannot spend the money, but must it still bid for it?

1436. To return to the point that the Chairman made; it, therefore, seems reasonable that the financial and explanatory memorandum be amended to provide a more realistic estimation of the start-up costs. Can the Minster tell the Committee that it will be amended; that the Committee will be advised about that; and that the Department will do so quickly? The matter is crucial to the Committee’s deliberations. I understand that the Minister’s announcement has given the Committee more time. However, it must still work at its own pace.

1437. Mr Poots: I informed the Executive that the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill would be extended by four months and that that might have implications for the introduction of a single library authority on 1 April 2008. Therefore, Ministers are aware of those implications. After the Committee, I will inform them of the current situation. I will ask the chief executive designate to inform the chief librarians immediately, so that they can inform their staff forthwith. My reporting responsibilities are to the Committee and the House. Therefore, I gave due courtesy to the Committee by making the announcement here.

1438. With regard to the £550,000 for corporate services, those costs will be elongated as a result of the process. The costs include the salaries of the chief executive designate and her current team and the accommodation exercise. However, there are other appointments that the Department would have made earlier in the process that will now be delayed due to the change of date. That figure will, therefore, be different for those reasons. The Department has taken the decision to change the date this week. It will, therefore, need time to work on some of those figures before it can provide the Committee with more concrete estimations.

1439. Mr McNarry: I must press the Minister again about whether he will amend the explanatory memorandum.

1440. Mr Poots: The Department will still aim to make the savings that appear in the memorandum unless it negotiates different figures with the Department of Finance and Personnel. At present, however, I cannot amend it.

1441. If we find that those figures are stretching things a little, we will have to go back to the Department of Finance and Personnel and indicate that there are no savings to be made.

1442. Mr McNarry: When we move to the Budget discussion and the consultation process, will those figures remain the same?

1443. Mr Poots: We are working to those figures. If we find that they are unreasonable and we cannot work within those figures, we will seek to have them amended.

1444. Mr McNarry: Will you inform the Committee of any change?

1445. Mr Poots: Yes.

1446. Mr P Ramsey: Minister, you are very welcome. It is always good to see you at these discussions. The Committee is uncertain about the way forward. I have missed some of the presentations to the Committee, but, at every meeting that I have attended, the utmost concern has been expressed about the value of a library authority. Are you persuaded that a single library authority is the best way forward to provide services that will match the existing services? Officials from one board told us that the start-up costs are £1·5 million, but someone else quoted a different figure, so David’s points are valid and consistent in terms of the agreement that members have reached.

1447. When witnesses address the Committee on the matter, we find that six more questions need to be answered by the end of it. Hansard provides a report of the meetings and representatives from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure attend the meetings, therefore, one would imagine that the Committee would have a better way of getting answers, rather than getting the Minister to attend to ask him the questions. A series of questions have been raised, but the answers could be found in an easier way. Your time is precious, Minister, and the Committee’s time is precious, therefore, there must be a better way of giving the necessary comfort and responses to members. Morale and motivation will be low now, as the introduction of the library authority has been postponed by a year. Again it is all about savings.

1448. What are the redundancy costs? What will be the branding of the new organisation? What is the cost of establishing a new regional office or subregional offices? The subregional facility has been talked about, but none of us knows what it means. We do not know whether it be coterminous with the new local authority. We need to question the validity of the library authority and settle arguments in order to be convinced to move forward and take ownership of a new single library authority, because, at the moment, too many questions remain unanswered.

1449. This is not directly related to legislation but, under existing arrangements, there is a formula to ensure that each area is guaranteed appropriate funding in targeting social need. Will that continue to be the case? That has not been discussed. In the present Library Service we have potential to access external funding, such as European peace moneys. Some senior librarians may be encouraged to leave the Library Service if they are offered a good lump sum, so we may lose those specialist skills and capacity.

1450. The Library Service is an excellent resource for providing lifelong learning and early years programmes. It also assists the Department of Education to deliver targets in literacy and numeracy skills. I have raised this question continuously with the boards: will there be joined-up thinking and a separation of the library authority from the schools section? Economies of scale enable the Library Service and the Department of Education to operate collectively, but what will happen when they separate? Will there be costings involved? Will there be separate buildings? Will there be a continued role for the Department of Education in the early years programme? For months, the Committee has had questions and been uncertain about it. There is good reason to extend the consultation period, so that we can be certain and support you in bringing forward the legislation. At the moment, I do not think that anyone in this room is certain.

1451. Mr Poots: I thank the Member for that. The review of public administration will create uncertainty across virtually all of the bodies that are affected by it. That goes with the territory. Those who have vested interests will come to the Committee and they will not want to change anything or do things differently, because they are protecting their own interests. However, I have to take a more global look at it.

1452. There are three options: first, to allow libraries to stay with education and, rather than becoming the education and skills authority, have them become the education and library skills authority instead. In my opinion, that would mean that libraries would play second fiddle to the big players. Libraries would be the tail of the dog, and they would not get a fair crack of the whip.

1453. Libraries have a much better case with a single library authority than with the education authority.

1454. The second option is for local authorities to have responsibility for libraries. Having spoken to people who work in libraries and people from the main union, NIPSA, there is total opposition to that. One trade union with a substantially smaller number of members would consider a move to local authorities. Overall, the people who work in libraries are clear that they do not want the local authority scenario. It would result in seven, 11 or 15 bodies overseeing libraries and would multiply, instead of reducing, the number of people that are involved in administration.

1455. The third option is the creation of a single library authority.

1456. Those are the three options. Doing nothing is not an option, because the education and library boards are going. Of the three options, I am convinced that a single library authority is the best option for libraries and for staff. It would mean the creation of a public-service body, which would have a clear and definitive role for libraries in Northern Ireland, and which would be accountable to the Department and the Committee. That is preferable to the responsibility for libraries being buried somewhere else, or a multiplicity, rather than a reduction, of administration.

1457. I am acutely aware of the problems that uncertainty creates among staff. That is why I did not change the decision to set up the library authority in April 2008 at an earlier point. I have now decided on April 2009, and I will stick to that rather than pick another date during the year and then find that there are additional problems. The extra year leaves adequate time to deal with the changes, and staff know that they can work to the April 2009 date with some comfort.

1458. Mr P Ramsey: I asked a number of questions to the Minister, and I do not suggest that he will have all the answers today. In light of the information that he has already given, can the Committee have a more detailed response to those questions?

1459. Mr Poots: I am quite happy for a more effective system of communication exchange to take place. If you are telling me that there has been a fall down in communication, I am happy for questions to be posed directly to the chief executive designate. I expect to see the questions and responses so that I can keep my finger on what is going on and so that the Committee does not have greater knowledge than what I have. I am happy for a better form of communication to take place.

1460. The Chairperson: We might discuss the detail of some of Mr Ramsey’s particular issues.

1461. Mr D Bradley: Minister, you did not say whether or not you would amend the explanatory and financial memorandum to take into account the adjusted start-up costs.

1462. Mr Poots: I am not saying that I would not do that, but I am not in a position to say that I will. The Department will have to identify whether the proposed finances are reasonable and can be delivered. If the finances are reasonable, I will not amend the explanatory and financial memorandum; but I will consider doing that if the finances cannot be delivered.

1463. Mr D Bradley: How far are you from final, complete and reliable costings? What external studies have the Department commissioned to help you formulate the costings?

1464. Ms Knox: DCAL is working on the final, complete and reliable costings, and I am not in a position to consider that. However, I have had discussions with the Department about the likely implications of a delayed start date. As the Minister said, he only made that decision this week. DCAL is working on the cost implications of that.

1465. Mr D Bradley: Do you have any figures?

1466. Ms Knox: I do not have figures; perhaps Mr Jack has figures on that. The Deloitte report, of which members have copies, is an external study that was commissioned by the Department to help it formulate the costings.

1467. I have looked at that report, tested some of its assumptions about external costs and spoken to the Department about the costings in order to find out if there is flexibility.

1468. Mr Jack: We will need to carry out more work on the detail of the costings. The main impact of the change to the timing is the period that the chief executive designate and her immediate team need to be paid for as the designate, rather than the affirmed chief executive and senior team of the substantive library authority. The main costs are for salaries and premises for that additional year.

1469. Having said that, the corporate services costs of the full library authority will be incurred later; however, the significant costs of setting up the corporate services and the new organisation are of a one-off nature. Those one-off costs will not differ because of the change to the timescale, so the main impact will be that some elements of salaries will be required for a longer period, and others will be delayed. As mentioned earlier, it will take time for savings to be realised: to an extent that element is delayed. We have some more detailed modelling to do. It is a complex exercise to work out what the staffing structure of the new authority will be. We are working constantly to refine the figures. So far, the main basis that we have for estimating the costs is the Deloitte report, and it is simply about looking at how changing the timing changes the phasing of the figures in that report.

1470. Mr D Bradley: What timescale are we talking about for the final costings? Will it be three months, or six months?

1471. Mr Jack: That will be heavily dependent on the new structure that the chief executive designate will draw up.

1472. Mr D Bradley: What intrigues me about this is that the costings for the Bill are far from complete. Therefore, I am surprised that the Minister came to the House on Tuesday and rejected the Irish language legislation, which is further down the legislative schedule than this Bill. He rejected that legislation largely on the basis of costings, so why is it taking so long to cost the library authority when the Irish language legislation was rejected in a much shorter timescale? The consultation stage had hardly been finished.

1473. Mr Poots: Well, I —

1474. Mr D Bradley: Please allow me to finish, Minister. It appears that there is a contradiction in the Department’s actions, and a lack of consistency in approach. On the one hand, there is a Bill that is going through the Committee Stage, which has not been fully costed even with external professional help, and on the other hand there is a proposed Bill that has not even reached the Committee Stage, but has been rejected largely on the basis of costings, and without any external professional help.

1475. Mr Poots: I thank the Member for his questions. First, we are working on assumptions in relation to costs of the Libraries Bill. Irene must identify how she is going to set up the structure, and, hopefully, we will reach a more definitive point in considerably less than six months. I would like to see that completed in closer to three months, by the end of this year.

1476. The other issue is not on today’s agenda. I asked for assumptions on cost to be made for that as well, and I asked that that should be done at a high level. Therefore, the assumptions that were made will give a reasonable indication of what those costs would be. In addition, I gave the costs exclusively for the Civil Service, and I did not cover education boards, health trusts, councils or other bodies for which there would be a cost issue.

1477. I will never apologise to the Committee or the Assembly for seeking to save money on administration. I believe that public money saved on administration can be directed towards front-line services. That is key to what we, as public representatives, do, and the public will hold us accountable for the delivery of those services. Northern Ireland has a poor level of front-line services across a whole range of Departments, and we would do well to seek to put as much money as possible into those front-line services — the casualty units, the sports facilities provided around the country and the libraries, many of which fall short of standards that we could be proud of. We should go forward and see how money can be saved, so that it can be distributed to the public in the most effective way.

1478. Mr D Bradley: I am not asking the Minister to apologise for anything. He is entitled to make savings, and we would all support him in that. We must be sure that the figures that we get are accurate. Will the Minister not accept my point that there is a lack of consistency in approach between those two pieces of legislation? The Department should be consistent in its approach. The Minister said earlier that he would welcome an improvement in the exchange of information or communication between the Committee and the Department. However, some members of the Committee knew the previous week the content of the statement that the Minister made on Tuesday morning, and he did not come to the Committee. I believe that the Chairperson asked to meet him. There are issues around communication.

1479. The Chairperson: Mr Bradley’s point is noted. We will have one or two final comments on the Libraries Bill.

1480. Mr McCausland: The difficulty for the Committee, and the Minister in many ways, has been that the legislation started under direct rule, and the Assembly became involved in the middle of the process. Many of the earlier stages were badly handled under direct rule. However, things have improved dramatically under devolution.

1481. Can I have clarification of the timeline? Legislation will be passed and we will know how many members a shadow board will have, and then it will have to be constituted. There will then be the process of recruitment to the board, and it will then kick in. What is the timescale for those procedures?

1482. Mr Poots: I would hope to have the legislation through by the summer recess, and if that is the case we could go ahead and appoint a shadow board in the autumn. We aim to appoint the shadow board in October, so the chief executive would, to some extent, be reporting to the board in shadow mode.

1483. Mr McCausland: So it would be mid-financial year, roughly?

1484. Mr Poots: It would, and then it would move forward in the new financial year. Setting up such a board or authority in mid-year would ensure that the financial impositions and corporate governance standards would immediately apply for the full year, but you would only be getting a number of months out of it.

1485. Mr McNarry: I thank the Minister for coming. I want to emphasise that the Committee has great doubt about his figures stacking up. The evidence is to the contrary from every source that we have looked at. If the Minister can show that his figures stack up or, indeed, if he can come clean and say that they are wrong, then the Committee could get to grips with the issue better and quicker. Will the Minister let the Committee know as soon as possible if there are any changes in his figures or assumptions? The Committee thinks that the figures are way out.

1486. Mr Poots: That remains to be seen. Assumptions have been made, and I cannot say that those assumptions are wrong. If Mr McNarry is talking about the figures being way out, and the difference is £200,000 of savings instead of £1·2 million savings, then the figures are way out. I would not anticipate that the figure will be £1·2 million exactly. I am sure that there will be some difference. Nonetheless, as soon as I have those figures, and as soon as we can move from the basis of assumptions to something more definitive, I will be happy to keep the Committee informed. However, we have not yet reached that point.

1487. The Chairperson: I thank the Minister and his senior colleagues for appearing before the Committee this morning to discuss the Libraries Bill.

1488. Minister, do you intend to make a brief statement on the Budget?

1489. Mr Poots: Budget issues are still being discussed at the Executive Committee. There will be further discussions today about ISNI. It has been a difficult negotiating round. I have fought hard for this Department and will continue to do so. Year 1 is a difficult year for all Departments. Years 2 and 3 will also be difficult, if we decide to ignore the recommendations of Water Reform NI. Years 4 and 5 will be difficult for capital development, if we do not examine what the Government have land banked and offload some of the assets that we do not currently use.

1490. In all of this, difficult decisions must be taken. My duty is to fight for my Department. I will try to obtain the best possible result for the service of culture, arts and leisure over the incoming year.

1491. The Chairperson: I thank the Minister, Mr Jack and Ms Knox.

1492. Mr Poots: Mr McNarry is away. I did not get an opportunity to thank him for the opening rounds. I am going to see Noel Thompson, so it was good for a warm-up.

1493. The Chairperson: Members, having heard the Minister’s evidence on the Libraries Bill, are there any issues on which further clarification is required from any of the witnesses? We can write to the Department.

1494. Mr K Robinson: I wish to make a general point. There was a point in the Minister’s presentation when he appeared to be a bit peeved with the Committee. I hope that, by the end of the exchange, he realised that the Committee has had real difficulties. We are not dragging our feet. We have been dropped into the middle of a process, and we are trying to establish where the firm ground is, so that we can build it up and get it right. It is not just a matter of getting it done. That is what seemed to be coming through at one stage. We are trying to get it right; and that is a difficult process. I hope that the Minister realised that from the questioning.

1495. Mr D Bradley: I would like further clarification, if possible, on what conversations the Minister may have had with the Department of Education about possible synchronisation of the establishment of the library authority and the education and skills authority. Also, I would like clarification on how links between the public library service and the schools’ library service will be maintained and developed and what type of service level agreement there will be and what issues it will cover.

1496. The Chairperson: It is agreed that the Committee will request that information.

25 October 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Paul Maskey
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

1497. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): We will now begin the formal discussion of the Libraries Bill. The Principal Clerk of Bills is with us today, and he is always very helpful in these matters.

1498. I refer members to the table of issues that they have identified as being of concern to them, and to a summary of the Minister’s responses, which we heard last week. The Committee must consider the Minister’s evidence and decide whether it is content with how he has responded to the Committee’s concerns. That is best done systematically, and I will deal with each issue in turn.

1499. First is clause 2, “Duty of authority to provide library service”. The Committee’s position is that it wants the term “comprehensive and efficient” to be included in the clause. Last week, the Minister said that such terms add meaning to the Bill, and that he is happy to consider the inclusion of the terms. He said that he would get back to the Committee on the matter.

1500. The Committee also asked the Minister how the efficiency of the library authority will be monitored and who will monitor it. The Minister said that the library authority will be monitored by the chief executive, who will report to the permanent secretary, who, in turn, will report to the Minister. The Minister will then report to the Committee. The Minister said that he was happy with those mechanisms and that there was no need for an outside body to carry out the monitoring. Ms Irene Knox also said that she would report to the Committee on standards and that any proposal for the updating of standards would be brought before the Committee. The Minister said that he was not in favour of including that matter in legislation as it would result in a loss of flexibility. Does the Committee agree that we need to write to the Minister asking him to report back in writing on his deliberations on the inclusion of the phrase “comprehensive and efficient”?

Members indicated assent.

1501. The Chairperson: Are members content with the Minister’s response on how standards will be monitored? If not, we could write to the Minister asking him to consider making an amendment to require that the performance standards of the authority need to be improved by the Assembly. Are we agreed that we are happy with the response?

Members indicated assent.

1502. The Chairperson: Last week, the Committee told the Minister that it was concerned that clause 2(2) does not provide adequate protection for reference material. We asked the Minister to consider expanding the clause to include reference to protecting material of regional and national importance. Nelson, you have consistently raised that point.

1503. Ms Knox replied that the difficulty with including such a provision in legislation is that it is not always possible to identify such material unless someone points it out. Therefore, the authority could be placed in a difficult position should it miss a publication — in other words, it could be brought to court if it failed to collect a particular item. However, Ms Knox said that she would consider the inclusion of a general phrase in the legislation. The Department has indicated that we will have a response from the Minister by 16 November, in preparation for the clause-by-clause scrutiny on 22 November.

1504. I now turn to clause 6, “Charges for certain library services”. The Committee is concerned that this clause does not guarantee free core library services. Last week, we asked the Minister whether he would amend clause 6(1) in line with the wording suggested by the Southern Education and Library Board. The Minister said that he would consider the wording and report back to the Committee. A response is due by 16 November.

1505. We also asked the Minister for his view on the idea of introducing a standard set of charges to apply to all libraries in all areas. The Minister said that one of the reasons for having a single library authority is to ensure a consistent service across the board, and that he saw no benefit in having different charges in different regions. Are members content with the Minister’s response? Are members content that clause 6(2) should remain as drafted, as it seems that there is no intention to set different charges in different areas, even though the Bill, as currently drafted, makes provisions for different charges? Does anyone want to guide the Committee on how to deal with that matter? I hear no strong views, so I take it that the Committee is happy with the Minister’s response.

Members indicated assent.

1506. The Chairperson: The Committee also asked the Minister whether he was content that he had legislative cover to make different charges to people of different ages. The Minister said that he could not give that assurance and would need to ask the relevant people to look at that matter on his behalf. Again, we will receive more information by 16 November. Are members content to await the Minister’s response?

Members indicated assent.

1507. The Chairperson: We now turn to paragraph 1 of schedule 2, which deals with membership of the authority. The Committee is proposing a substantive change to this schedule. The Committee favours a board of 20 members. Last week, the Minister said that he was open to the Committee’s views and that the issue was still up for discussion. However, he made the point that, sometimes, larger boards do not work as effectively as smaller boards because people do not pull their weight, and that smaller boards can be more focused. I take it that Members are still in favour of Ken’s proposal of 20 members. Therefore, we are seeking agreement to specify that figure, and we will write to the Minister asking him to amend the Bill accordingly.

1508. Mr McCausland: Is that with regard to making sure that the membership is reflective of Northern Ireland society?

1509. The Chairperson: The item that I am referring to is the number of board members. What you have referred to is a further point that you may want to major on. Is it our considered view that the board should consist of 20 members?

Members indicated assent.

1510. The Chairperson: The Committee told the Minister that we favour elected representatives and union representatives being included on the board. The Minister said that he recognised that local government representatives bring a unique dimension to public bodies because of their interaction with the public. Again, that is still up for discussion.

1511. Does the Committee want to suggest to the Minister how many board members should be local councillors? Do we want to ask the Minister to specify that, and that union representatives should be on the board, in the Bill? If we do, we are going to have to write to the Minister regarding that. Or, do we want to specify another form of wording about the board’s being representative of society and cultural diversity?

1512. Mr McCausland: I think that that more general approach covers all of those bases.

1513. The Chairperson: Are we agreed?

1514. Mr McCausland: We should emphasise that there should be local government involvement.

1515. Mr P Ramsey: And appropriate geographical balance.

1516. Mr McCausland: Yes, the term “reflective” will cover that.

1517. The Chairperson: Nelson, help us with a form of words.

1518. Mr McCausland: “That the membership of the body should be reflective of Northern Ireland society.”

1519. The Chairperson: Is that agreed by members?

1520. Mr McCausland: There is a form of words that is used by the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission. I do not know what it is, but we could consider that.

1521. Mr Shannon: Are we going to specify the number of elected representatives, or are we saying that we are not going to do that?

1522. The Chairperson: We are saying that the board should consist of 20 members. Do we want to be prescriptive, and say that one third, or less —

1523. Mr Shannon: I am simply making the point. I am not proposing that by any means. A certain group of councillors could perhaps achieve the required geographical spread. Other members may have a different opinion.

1524. The Chairperson: Other people have said that the Northern Ireland Local Government Association, for example, could provide the representation on the board and be the councillors’ voice, but that may not be the case.

1525. Does anyone want to be prescriptive regarding how many of the 20 members should be local councillors?

1526. Mr McCausland: No. We do not have to do that at this point.

1527. Regarding the point that Jim made, council representation would achieve a spread of people. However, there are dangers in that all the experts come from North Down. Therefore, it is good to get representativeness reflecting —

1528. Mr Shannon: There are experts in other parts of the country apart from North Down.

1529. Mr McCausland: Yes, but looking at the composition of the current boards, you would not think that.

1530. The Chairperson: Are there any experts in the Ards area, Jim?

1531. Mr Shannon: I can think of one or two. We have experts on lots of things.

1532. The Chairperson: OK. Do we want to be specific and request that the legislation state that people from all geographical areas should be included on the board, or is that covered?

1533. Mr McCausland: The term “reflective” covers geography, gender, cultural background, and so on.

1534. The Chairperson: OK. Is that agreed?

Members indicated assent.

1535. The Chairperson: Schedule 1, paragraph 3 refers to tenure of office. Wallace explored this last week.

1536. Lord Browne: Yes. We were all agreed on that issue.

1537. The Chairperson: Therefore, the Committee is content with the Minister’s response.

1538. The Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance’s (NIPSA) view is that the chairperson of the board of the new library authority should be able to serve only a maximum of two terms of office. The Department agreed with that view, but said that it should not necessarily be included in the legislation, being covered instead by the rules of operation of the board.

1539. Mr McCausland: Does the Department determine the rules of operation of the board?

1540. The Chairperson: Do we want to ask that question specifically?

1541. Mr McCausland: Yes. If it is the Department setting the rules, that is fine. However, if it is left to the board to set its own rules, it might decide —

1542. The Chairperson: I am beginning to learn that if the Committee wants something written into legislation, the Department can say that it is not needed and that it can be included the rules of operation or the explanatory and financial memorandum. Therefore, if we were being suspicious, it could be suggested that there are wee devices that the Department uses. However, we should not be suspicious.

1543. Do we want it stipulated in the legislation that the chairperson of the board should hold office for a maximum of two terms, or are members content that it be included in the rules of operation? We will ask the question that Nelson proposed regarding who sets those rules.

1544. Mr P Maskey: Ask the question first.

1545. The Chairperson: OK. We can revisit that.

1546. We have not received a response from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office regarding NIPSA’s proposed amendments. Last week, the Minister said that it seemed sensible for the Departmental Solicitor’s Office and NIPSA’s lawyer to find out whether they could agree a position. He said that he would report back to the Committee at the earliest opportunity.

1547. With regard to the explanatory memorandum, the Committee had an issue with the start-up costs and estimated savings. Last week, we told the Minister that we believed that he was underestimating the start-up costs and overestimating the efficiency savings that could be made in the future. The Minister said that the predicted savings had already been agreed with the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP). If the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) were to move away from those figures, DFP approval would need to be sought. The Minister said that he is still aiming to make the efficiency savings, and therefore cannot amend the explanatory memorandum. Are members content with the Minister’s reasoning?

1548. Mr P Ramsey: That is probably one of the most contentious areas, and there is a level of uncertainty there. The fact that the Minister conceded the appointment of an outside body to examine the overall costs indicates that there is a problem. The Minister confirmed today that Deloitte and Touche has been appointed.

1549. The Chairperson: Should we press the Minister to amend the explanatory memorandum in relation to the savings?

1550. Mr P Ramsey: Every presentation that the Committee has heard, particularly from the boards, has indicated expected costs two or three times higher than what the Minister indicated. We need more clarification.

1551. The Chairperson: The Committee Clerk will explain the timing and the opportunity that remains to affect these amendments.

1552. The Committee Clerk: The Committee is not meeting next week; the next meeting is on 8 November and that will be followed by a meeting on 15 November. Therefore, only a few meetings are left before the Committee begins its clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Libraries Bill. Today is the last meeting in which Committee members will be able to come up with questions, to query the Department and put questions in writing to the Department in time for it to come up with answers. The Department is already providing answers on 16 November, so anything that is sent today would have to be tagged on to those.

1553. The Chairperson: The Committee will bear that in mind. Are we awaiting further information, or do we want to press the Minister to amend the explanatory memorandum in relation to the savings? Is there any conclusion on that?

1554. Mr McCausland: Have we had clarity on the point that was raised in the research paper: that, up to now, corporate costs have been met largely by the Department of Education (DE) and that, when the library authority is set up, those costs will be met by DCAL? The research paper states: “DCAL explain that for ‘historical’ reasons corporate and support services for libraries…have been financed by the Department of Education (DE), an arrangement which will end once the single Authority is set up.”

1555. Has there been clarification that less money will be given to the Department of Education and additional money given to DCAL to meet those corporate costs?

1556. The Chairperson: Is there a question there for the Department?

1557. Mr McCausland: How did that influence the Department’s estimation of the savings? DCAL might feel that it will make savings in corporate costs, but it was not paying for those anyway; the Department of Education was.

1558. The Principal Clerk of Bills: There will probably be a transfer of funds from that programme from the Department of Education to DCAL, as it is taking over that policy issue. The savings that have been quoted must be real savings, and the Department will have taken that into account.

1559. Mr McCausland: The difficulty was that the previous system was run through the boards, which were funded by DE, and the man in charge of the accountancy section was responsible for libraries, schools and youth services. How does one apportion those costs? Perhaps that was considered by the consultants.

1560. The Chairperson: Deloitte specified a figure of £965,000 for corporate services.

1561. Mr McCausland: Was that its estimate?

1562. The Chairperson: Yes, and I understand that the bid so far has been for £550,000. Presumably the Department will need to bid for that greater amount, should that estimate turn out to be accurate. Is there an action point, or are we just deliberating?

1563. Mr McCausland: We are deliberating.

1564. The Chairperson: The Minister said that the Department was still working on the start-up costs and that he was not yet in a position to say whether he would change the figures in the explanatory memorandum. The Minister said that he would inform the Committee when the Department had worked out more concrete figures. The Department is aiming to produce those figures by 16 November.

1565. There is that point, again, about 16 November being the day after the Committee meeting. Does that matter, or would it be helpful if that were to be brought forward?

1566. The Committee Clerk: The Department was proposing to answer the Committee’s queries in December, so that date represents an agreement to bring its response forward.

1567. The Chairperson: That is fine.

1568. I refer members to the correspondence from the Belfast Education and Library Board and NIPSA on start-up costs for the library authority. Neither organisation was able to provide concrete figures. Are members content to wait for the Minister to provide figures before considering the matter further?

Members indicated assent.

1569. The Chairperson: The timing for the creation of the library authority is not in the Bill. Last week, the Minister told the Committee that he was setting 1 April 2009 as the start date for the library authority. Members had been concerned about the proposed start date of 1 April 2008, given that it was a year before the proposed establishment of the education and skills authority. Are members content with the start date of 1 April 2009?

Members indicated assent.

1570. The Chairperson: The links with the schools library service and the Department of Education are not in the Bill. The Committee has written to the Minister to request information on what discussions his Department has had with the Department of Education on the synchronisation of the establishment of the library authority and the education and skills authority. We also asked him how the links between the public library service and the schools library service will be maintained and developed, what sort of service-level agreement will be made and what sort of issues will it cover. A response is due next week.

1571. Another issue that is not in the Bill is the sub-regional structure. Last week, the Committee asked the Minister to provide it with the operational structure of the library authority. Ms Knox said that she was drafting the operational structure and that it would be ready towards the end of November. She offered to come to the Committee when she was ready to discuss it. Are members content to wait to see the operational structure before considering the issue further, or do they wish to ask Ms Knox to discuss it?

1572. Mr P Maskey: I have no problem with waiting for Ms Knox to come back. However, when she comes back, if the Committee decides that there should be changes to the structure, can it ask her to make them, and will she have time to do so?

1573. The Committee Clerk: We have drawn up a table in an attempt to help the Committee come to its final conclusions on the Bill before the end date of the extension. Therefore, we have a little bit of time.

1574. Mr P Maskey: Then we will just wait.

1575. The Chairperson: OK. The Committee has concluded its business for today. If there are additional comments, please feel free to make them now.

1576. The Principal Clerk of Bills: On the question of rules, clause 9 of the Bill refers to the Department’s powers of direction. The clause enables the Department to give general or specific directions to the authority on the exercise of its functions. It is likely that this clause relates to setting the rules of operation. Two terms are being used. In the legislation it is referred to as “powers of direction”, and I suspect that that relates to setting rules. However, the Committee will have to write to the Minister for clarification of that.

1577. As the Department is due to respond on 16 November, but the Committee is to meet on 15 November, may I suggest that the Committee considers writing to the Department for the sake of two days, so that the material could be with you the day before you have to address the issues.

1578. The Chairperson: I take the Committee Clerk’s point that the response was originally going to be given in December and that 16 November is some sort of concession. That said, perhaps the Committee should write to the Department to ask for that increased flexibility. Thank you for that suggestion.

1579. Mr P Ramsey: Some of the questions that I asked the Minister and officials last week remain unanswered. Some of the questions were about legislation, but some related to operational matters, such as the total redundancy costs, the branding of the new service, the establishment of the new headquarters and whether there would be costs relating to sub-regional offices. All those questions were to enable members to be sure that we are going down the road that we want to go down. We know that significant savings will be made, but will the same service be provided?

1580. I raise that point because there are occasions when the Minister or officials are unable to give the Committee answers. What is the follow-through mechanism for getting those answers? For example, I am not sure whether DCAL officials are present today. If they were, they could take those questions away and give the Committee an assurance that the questions that remained unanswered from weeks ago will be looked at. The Committee keeps coming back to the same questions. What is the point of asking questions if we are not given the appropriate answers?

1581. The Chairperson: So there are unanswered questions?

1582. Mr P Ramsey: I have consistently asked a range of questions, and they remain unanswered.

1583. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Normally, officials will scour Hansard and pick up anything that —

1584. Mr P Ramsey: Normally?

1585. The Principal Clerk of Bills: You may want to have that relayed back to ensure that officials do that.

1586. Mr P Ramsey: In light of the amount of effort that the Committee has put into the Bill, I would be happy enough, Mr Chairperson, if you were to send officials a letter requesting them to address the questions that have been asked and recorded in Hansard over recent weeks.

1587. The Chairperson: That is a very general request, and it would be leaving it to the officials’ interpretation as to what was asked and what was not asked. However, that is OK.

1588. Mr P Ramsey: The problem is that we are forced into asking questions of the Minister outside the DCAL setting, which should not be the case. However, we have to do that because we are not getting answers.

1589. The Chairperson: Pat, maybe you could refresh your memory and speak to the Committee Clerk about those issues later.

1590. Mr P Ramsey: I will give the Committee Clerk the information.

1591. The Chairperson: That is great; it is exactly what we need. Thank you very much, members.

Thursday 8 November 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Pat Ramsey
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

1592. The Deputy Chairperson (Mr McNarry): I advise members that this session will be reported by Hansard. The Principal Clerk of Bills is also in attendance; once again, he is very welcome.

1593. The Committee put a range of questions and suggestions to the Minister following his evidence session and the Committee’s subsequent discussions. His response on costs has been received, and responses on the other issues are due by 14 November. The outstanding issues are set out in the members’ packs. Members should bear in mind that responses are due by 14 November and that we will continue to chase them up.

1594. The Committee asked the Minister to provide more concrete figures on start-up costs for the proposed library authority: originally, those costs were estimated at £670,000. However, because the start date has been deferred until 1 April 2009, start-up costs will now be — would you believe it? — as follows: £350,000 until the end of March 2008, and £825,000 for 2008-09. That is a total of £1·175 million. Furthermore, start-up costs for the provision of corporate services, which the Minister dealt with separately, are estimated to be £1 million. That money will be spent during 2008-09. Therefore, even allowing for an estimate — and we should use the word “estimate” — we now have a total start-up cost figure of £2·175 million.

1595. Members will recall that the Committee asked the Minister if he would be prepared to amend the start-up costs that are stated in the explanatory and financial memorandum. The Minister has explained that when the Bill is enacted, the accompanying explanatory and financial memorandum will not include a section on financial implications, and that the costs provided in the memorandum have been included primarily to assist us and our MLA colleagues when scrutinising the Bill.

1596. However, we now have it in writing from the Minister that the anticipated start-up costs are significantly higher — the word “significantly” being a bit of an understatement — than he originally estimated. The Minister’s letter will be included in the Committee’s report and will form part of the public record. The Committee has, therefore, effectively persuaded the Department to accept that it originally underestimated the start-up costs for the new library authority. Well done, Committee. I think we have made our point. At times, it might have been like pulling teeth, but fair play to the Minister; he has realised the facts.

1597. Mr P Ramsey: I take the point that it has been difficult to obtain the figures, but I still do not believe that they represent the true costs involved. The Committee Clerk tabled several questions to the Minister on branding, redundancies and other matters, and it is clear that the figures will be revised continuously. The Minister confirmed that Deloitte will be coming on board to examine those costs. The figures before us today may be more representative than those produced by the education and library boards, but they are still low. I believe that costs will be much higher due to branding, redundancies, establishing a new headquarters and, perhaps, a subregional office. As you have said, Mr Deputy Chairperson, all we can do is wait until 14 November for a response.

1598. The Deputy Chairperson: Are members content to note the Minister’s response, perhaps including Pat Ramsey’s caveat that we note it with caution?

1599. Mr K Robinson: I suggest that we note the Minister’s comments but continue to monitor the situation.

1600. The Deputy Chairperson: The Committee has a proposal from Ken and Pat to note and continue to monitor the Minister’s comments. Is the Committee content?

Members indicated assent.

1601. The Deputy Chairperson: The Minister said that the case for redundancies will be considered in light of the fact that, in conjunction with senior library staff, the chief executive designate is working on the organisational structure. Is the Committee content to note the Minister’s response?

1602. Mr Shannon: Will the Committee receive early information on the details of redundancies? I would like to think that we would not find out from someone else, which happens all the time.

1603. The Deputy Chairperson: That is an excellent point. Previously, the Committee indicated that it was probing — and would continue to probe — for information, and, as the situation unfolds, I am sure that the unions will have something to say on those matters. Do members agree that the Committee should write to the Minister to inform him that it is content with his response but wishes to be continuously informed?

1604. Mr Shannon: The Committee wants to be kept informed. It is frustrating to get third-hand information from unions or from those who are directly affected by decisions. The Committee must be kept up to speed with what is happening. The Deputy Chairperson’s previous comments are correct. It is due to the Committee’s efforts that it now has a more representative figure for start-up costs. The Committee has a responsibility in these matters and deserves to be kept informed.

1605. The Deputy Chairperson: Does the Committee agree to pursue the information as proposed by Jim Shannon and seconded by Pat Ramsey?

Members indicated assent.

1606. The Deputy Chairperson: The Minister has also provided a synopsis of the Deloitte report on corporate services for the proposed library authority.

1607. Mr K Robinson: The synopsis includes a phrase that the Committee Clerk should note for future reference. It states that the efficient solution should provide the appropriate level of functioning without being “administration rich”. That is a lovely phrase; it should be put to greater use.

1608. The Deputy Chairperson: We must take note of that and use it in future.

1609. Mr K Robinson: It would go down well in a party manifesto. [Laughter.]

1610. Mr P Ramsey: We are administration poor: we are fighting for Hansard to cover our meetings.

1611. Mr McCausland:

1612. The Deloitte report proposes options for finance systems. Option 5B is:

“the Library Authority extending (or sharing) systems currently used by other DCAL NDPBs, with in-house provision of transaction services in relation to finance, procurement and payroll.”

1613. How many non-departmental public bodies are there? Is there currently any sharing of systems? Is it the intention that they will all share one system? If, in the end, that were to happen, how would it be implemented, and would bodies such as OSNI or the museums be included? Can we ask for a better picture because the synopsis is not clear on those points?

1614. The Deputy Chairperson: Do members agree that we need that information, and do we support Mr McCausland’s request write to ascertain it?

Members indicated assent.

1615. The Deputy Chairperson: Members should consider the Department’s conclusion, which is marvellously written — we should get hold of some of the scriptwriters — and we may wish to come back to it at a later date. I believe that it covers some of the points on service sharing that Nelson McCausland referred to:

“the exercise has helped identify the difficulties finding suitable sharing partners in the time needed for setting up such arrangements. In particular, maintaining shared arrangements with education beyond the end of the Education and Library Board is not the automatic solution it might appear”.

1616. That does not appear to be a conclusion to me: it seems to say that that is a problem for the future, and that it will be up to someone else to sort it out. Should we draw the Minister’s attention to the conclusion and ask him to explain it — or can somebody explain it now?

1617. Mr McCausland: The conclusion states that:

“the exercise has helped identify the difficulties of finding suitable sharing partners”.

1618. Was it not also said that the sharing partners would be the other NDPBs?

1619. The Deputy Chairperson: That sentence jumped out at me because it was under the heading “Conclusion”: it does not look like one.

1620. Mr McCausland: It is more like confusion than conclusion.

1621. The Deputy Chairperson: Yes; confusion rather than conclusion. Is the Committee content to write to the Minister to ask for clarification?

1622. Mr Shannon: Would it qualify for a “gobbledegook of the year” award?

1623. The Deputy Chairperson: As Chairperson, I am prohibited from using such words. However, thank you very much for allowing me to say that I welcome your use of the word gobbledegook. [Laughter.]

1624. Is the Committee content to write to the Minister to ask for clarification?

Members indicated assent.

1625. The Deputy Chairperson: I refer Members to the Minister’s response dated 1 November to the Committee’s proposed rewording of clause 6 — I apologise that members are only reading it now. The Minister has explained that not all borrowing and information access is free of charge. Consequently, the Committee’s proposed wording would not reflect current practice. He also points out that the Committee’s wording is not sufficiently specific in legal terms. The Minister states that he will consider any further form of words suggested by the Committee. Do Members wish to pursue the rewording of clause 6? If so — and without putting words in the mouths of members — would the Committee be minded to ask the Bill Office to provide further guidance and to clarify the Minister’s point that the Committee’s wording is not sufficiently specific in legal terms?

1626. Mr McCausland: Having only just seen the response, that would make sense.

1627. The Deputy Chairperson: Is the Committee content?

Members indicated assent.

1628. The Deputy Chairperson: That is another job for the Principal Clerk of Bills.

1629. Regarding discussions between DCAL and the Department of Education about the education and skills authority, the Minister’s response, dated 29 October, states that both Departments are meeting regularly to ensure that there will be a common approach on staff transfers so that there will be equal treatment of all staff. Are Members content to note the Minister’s response?

1630. Mr K Robinson: I have a general comment, which is not specifically about the Minister’s response. The education and library boards have built up an experienced body of staff over the years who are not necessarily qualified to the same level as more recent recruits. I am concerned that their experience, which in some cases has held the boards together during difficult days, will be sidetracked in the new terms and conditions introduced under the new regime, meaning that the dedication, loyalty and expertise of those staff will not be fully recognised. There is unease among some members of staff.

1631. The Deputy Chairperson: Do you want the Committee to flag that up?

1632. Mr K Robinson: I would welcome the Committee drawing attention to that because there is unease and uncertainty; those members of staff have served through very difficult times. I will not go any further as Hansard is reporting the meeting.

1633. The Deputy Chairperson: We have heard Ken Robinson’s view — are Members in favour of raising the issue?

Members indicated assent.

1634. Mr McCausland: At what point was recruitment undertaken for the post of chief executive designate?

1635. The Deputy Chairperson: My recollection is that the Assembly was just back in business. The Minister asked the Committee Chairman and me to visit him. I mentioned appointments with the Minister at that point — to be fair to him, he was only in post. When I asked him about the chief executive designate, he said that he did not know that the post had been advertised. He was corrected by his officials, who said that the post had been advertised. Therefore, we could look back to that point. The post was advertised, but not by him.

1636. Mr McCausland: That is the point. We are being told that if the legislation proceeds, the new library authority will not come into being until a later date. Therefore, there will be a longer period during which the chief executive designate — and others — will be paid. That will be happening because of a decision taken by a Minister and civil servants under direct rule and before the Committee had an opportunity to consider the legislation. The costs attached to that decision have now increased, and it would be helpful if the Committee could have a timeline indicating at what point, under direct rule, recruitment for the post of chief executive was started. The recruitment process would have taken quite a while.

1637. The Deputy Chairperson: We should bear in mind that the recruitment of the chief executive designate was on a secondment basis, which probably made it easier to fast-track the process. We have continually questioned the Minister about that. Should we enter into that process, or do members want to leave it until they see the outcome?

1638. Mr McCausland: Yes. I just want to see the timeline for the whole process.

1639. The Deputy Chairperson: I can anticipate the issue that you are going to raise. Perhaps, the Committee should wait until it has received the information first.

1640. The Committee Clerk: The Department may say that it cannot produce documents or give evidence pertaining to an earlier mandate.

1641. The Deputy Chairperson: That may be the case. However, we are dealing with a situation in which the chief executive designate was seconded rather than appointed. The Committee has met her successor who is chief executive designate of the South Eastern Education and Library Board. The answer can be obtained by discovering when he entered into the secondment process and what advertisement he responded to, because the post had to be advertised.

1642. Mr McCausland: I attended a meeting in Scotland last week at which there was talk about the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The Scottish official who is in charge of freedom of information requests there stated that gaining access to documentation from previous administrations is not an issue. If a person asks for information, they can get it under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The official also made the point that because a document has the word “draft” written on it does not preclude it from being accessed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000; something which is sometimes used as an excuse for not releasing information.

1643. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The use of the word “draft” would only apply if the refusal to provide information were on the basis that the document would be published. If it were not going to be published, then there would be no defence for not disclosing it on the basis that it is in draft format.

1644. The Deputy Chairperson: We can progress the matter on the basis that it is a genuine request. Why should the Committee not be given the information? A refusal to provide the information will serve to increase our suspicions on the matter, and that should not be done.

1645. The Minister responded on 29 October about the schools’ library service. That response has only just arrived, which is why members are just receiving it now. The delay has been due to others collating the information.

1646. The Minister states that the chief librarians are working on how the schools’ library service and the new library authority might best work together. That is very good news. The two Departments will then have to consider any new arrangements before an appropriate service level agreement can be drawn up.

1647. The Minister states that it is not yet clear whether other service level agreements will be required between the library authority and the education and skills authority. I do not want to put words in members’ mouths, but if it does become clear that other agreements will be required, we would like to know about them. Are members content to note the Minister’s response?

Members indicated assent.

22 November 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Ken Robinson

1648. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I refer members to the correspondence from the Minister and to the guidance received from the Bill Office regarding clause 6 of the Libraries Bill. The Bill Office has suggested that it may not be wise or possible to be prescriptive in the legislation about what is classified as a free service. The Bill Office has pointed to the fact that the Committee has a written ministerial assurance, which will form part of the public record, that there is no intention to introduce charging for core services. The Bill Office has suggested that the Committee write to the Minister seeking his assurance that the Department would consult with the Committee before introducing any changes to its charging policy. Are members in agreement with that course of action?

Members indicated assent.

1649. I refer members to the response from the Minister, dated 16 November 2007, to a range of issues that were raised by the Committee. The Committee had asked the Minister to consider adding a general phrase to clause 2 of the Libraries Bill to make reference to the fact that the library authority should have a duty to collect material relevant to the region. The Minister has replied that the libraries’ stock policy, including that on reference collections, is covered by clause 2(2)(a). He has said that he expects the library authority to develop a collection policy to enable access to local historical research material. However, the Minister is of the view that making it a legislative requirement that the authority must collect all material pertaining to the region is too great a burden for the public library service. It may unbalance the book-purchase budget as well as open the authority to litigation should anything be missed. Are members content with the Minister’s response?

1650. Mr K Robinson: Yes, we have flagged up our concerns on both of those issues.

1651. The Chairperson: Yes, and we can return to them individually if we so wish.

Members indicated assent.

1652. The Chairperson: Clause 6(2) refers to charges. The Committee asked the Minister if he was sure that under the law the library authority would be permitted to make different charges to people of different ages. The Minister has advised that different charges for older people or children are justifiable on the grounds of the policy objective of encouraging children to read, and because senior citizens may be less able to pay. The Minister also advised that the Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 covers the fields of employment and vocational training in relation to colleges, but does not impact on the Libraries Bill.

1653. Are members content with the Minister’s response?

1654. Mr McCarthy: That response refers to different persons. We were worried that there could be different charges for different localities.

1655. The Chairperson: OK. Do we want to anything about that?

1656. Mr McCarthy: Clarify it.

1657. The Chairperson: OK, we will seek further clarification regarding different charges for different localities.

1658. That brings me to NIPSA’s proposed amendments to schedule 2. The Committee had asked that the Department’s solicitors meet with NIPSA’s solicitors to discuss the issues. The Minister has advised that on 9 October 2007, the permanent secretary wrote to NIPSA requesting a meeting between the two legal advisers. NIPSA has agreed to a meeting at senior counsel level. However, DCAL is advised by the Departmental Solicitor’s Office, not senior counsel. DCAL is pursuing the possibility of a meeting with NIPSA and its legal service. DCAL officials have advised that the Department is trying to set up a meeting with NIPSA and will keep the Committee updated. Do members agree that the Committee should write to the Minister asking him to advise it of the date for such a meeting, and to inform it when the outcome is known?

Members indicated assent.

1659. The Committee asked the Minister if the Department has any plans to carry out equality impact assessments (EQIAs) on any aspects of the implementation of the Libraries Bill. The Minister has advised that an EQIA will be carried out in respect of the location of the new headquarters and that advice will be sought from the Equality Commission on whether other EQIAs are required. Are members content to note the Minister’s response?

Members indicated assent.

1660. The Committee asked the Minister who will be responsible for drawing up the rules of operation of the library authority. We were concerned about schedule 1(3), regarding the tenure of the chair. The Minister has advised that the rules of operation will be set out in detail in the management statement and financial memorandum, which is drawn up by the Department and agreed with the library authority.

1661. The Minister also points to schedule 1(11), which states that the authority will be required to draw up standing orders. The Department will draw up the terms and conditions for the appointment of the board, which will include a maximum tenure of two terms of office for the chair. That is a key assurance. NIPSA had raised a concern that the chair should serve only two terms. The Committee now has it in writing from the Minister that that will be the case. Therefore, the Committee should be content that we have effected an outcome.

1662. The Committee asked the Minister a number of further questions regarding elements of the start-up costs and redundancies. The Minister has advised that no additional funding is currently available for a redundancy scheme and that the case for making a bid for redundancies will be considered in light of the operational design being drawn up by the chief executive designate.

1663. In relation to the cost of branding the new library authority, the Minister has advised that a design firm will be engaged to consider a new logo. That cost has been covered in the new estimates of start-up costs, which were previously sent to the Committee, and which are now sitting at £2·175 million. The cost of new signage has not yet been calculated.

1664. Mr K Robinson: How can money be set aside for the rebranding of libraries, vans and so on, yet not be set aside for redundancy or potential redundancy of staff? That seems to be a glaring omission.

1665. The Chairperson: Do you want the Committee to write to the Minister asking for a response to that question?

1666. Mr K Robinson: The redundancy situation will occur; it is not going to be avoided. Some people will want to move. We should write to the Minister to ask why even a nominal sum not been set aside.

1667. The Chairperson: We will ask that question, Ken.

1668. The next paragraph of the Minister’s response deals with the new headquarters for the authority. He states:

“In terms of permanent headquarters, no work has yet been done on the eventual location of the Library Authority”.

1669. However, he goes on to confirm:

“The cost of fitting out of the temporary premises in Lisburn is included in the new estimate for start-up costs”.

1670. Related to that is the nature of the sub-regional structure, on which the Minister says:

“Until the work on the organisational design is complete, the nature of any sub-regional structure will not be known, but it is envisaged that corporate services not located with the headquarters will be in current library service buildings.”

1671. On how the libraries budget will be split, the Minister states:

“Until the organisational design work is complete, the proposed budget split between frontline services and administrative functions is not identifiable”.

1672. When that work is complete, the Department:

“will assess the balance between frontline and administrative functions.”

1673. The Minister advises that a regional funding formula “will not be needed”. However, he:

“will also seek to see in the Authority’s funding practice recognition of the priorities for TSN and rural areas… …and other social groups specified for targeted action in ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’”.

1674. On external funding he advises:

“existing library staff already have experience of sourcing external funding, and will employ this expertise on transfer to the Library Authority.”

1675. Are Members content to note those responses from the Minister?

1676. Members indicated assent.

1677. Mr Brolly: Can we ask the Minister whether there is any intention to solicit outside funding? I assume that outside funding refers to libraries that have been sponsored in the past under a certain name, such as Carnegie Library. Sponsorship could be a source of substantial funding.

1678. The Chairperson: We will include that question in the same correspondence.

1679. The next paragraph in the Minister’s response considers the new authority’s role in early years and literacy development. The Minister states:

“I will expect to see evidence of continued activity in libraries in terms of early years and literacy programmes, and my officials are developing measures to better capture this activity… …will expect the Library Authority to demonstrate continued partnership between libraries and education provision, both at regional level… …and at local level”.

1680. Are Members content to note that?

Members indicated assent.

1681. The Chairperson: We are nearing the end of the consideration of the Libraries Bill for today. We still await a response from the Minister on five issues: the inclusion of the phrase “comprehensive and efficient” in clause 2; the number of members on the board in schedule 1(2)(1); the make-up of the board in schedule 1(2)(2); the operational structure of the authority, and progress on the meeting with NIPSA. I advise members that the Department has indicated that a response is expected on those issues by 23 November 2007.

1682. The agenda for next week’s meeting is clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Bill. Members should prepare for that meeting by reading the Bill in detail and noting any clauses on which they require further clarification or about which they have concerns. Officials from DCAL will be in attendance to advise on, and explain, clauses as necessary.

Thursday 29 November 2007

Witnesses:

Ms Irene Armstrong Mr Colin Jack Ms Julie Mapstone		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Denis Arnold		Northern Ireland Assembly Bill Office

1683. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): We now turn to clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Libraries Bill, except for schedule 2. Schedule 2, which relates to staff transfers, will be dealt with at next week’s meeting, when the Departmental Solicitor’s Office will be available to provide clarification, if required.

1684. Clause-by-clause scrutiny allows members the opportunity to raise any concerns about — or suggest any amendments to — the Bill. Members should read the relevant clauses in the Bill, along with the related commentary in the explanatory and financial memorandum.

1685. I invite the senior Departmental officials to the table. They are Mr Colin Jack, Ms Julie Mapstone and Ms Irene Armstrong. A member of staff from the Bill Office, Mr Denis Arnold, is also in attendance.

1686. The Bill has 13 clauses. Each clause, including any subsections of those clauses, must be considered in turn. The Committee has three options: it can agree that the clause should stand part of the Bill, it can agree on any proposed amendments, or it can refer the clause for further consideration.

1687. If members are content, we shall proceed to the clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Bill. I did not ask Mr Jack whether he wished to make an introductory statement.

1688. Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): I do not wish to make an introductory statement. I am happy to comment or take questions as the Committee considers each clause of the Bill.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Duty of Authority to provide library service)

1689. The Chairperson: This clause requires the library authority to provide a public library service for people living, working or studying in Northern Ireland. It goes on to list the specific duties of the library authority and enables the library authority to work with other bodies. It also enables the authority to provide library services to visitors.

1690. Members have raised some issues about this clause. The Committee queried whether the performance standards for the library authority should have to be approved by the Assembly. However, after hearing the Minister’s evidence, we decided on 25 October that we were content that the Minister would monitor standards and report to the Committee. We wrote to the Minister, requesting that he include the term “comprehensive and efficient” in the clause. The Minister’s response has not yet been received. Would it be sensible to defer final consideration of this clause until we meet on 6 December?

1691. Mr Jack: The Minister plans to respond to the Committee on that point soon, and he is sympathetic to the point that the Committee has raised.

1692. In respect of the finalisation of the detail of the clause, the process, as we understand it, is that the Committee will publish its report, in light of which we will take further advice from the legislative draftsmen about how to factor the considerations of the Committee into the Bill as it goes forward for Consideration Stage. I expect that the Committee will have a response from the Minister by next week’s meeting. I am not sure that we are in a position to sign off on the wording of clauses today.

1693. The Chairperson: We also asked the Minister to include a general phrase in clause 2 to make it the duty of the library authority to collect and protect material of regional importance. That was a point that Nelson McCausland felt strongly about. The Minister’s response was that the libraries’ stock policy, including that on reference collections, is covered by clause 2(2)(a).

Clause 2 referred for further consideration.

Clause 3 (Ancillary powers of Authority)

1694. The Chairperson: This clause sets out the additional powers of the authority in relation to carrying out its functions. There were concerns about whether the clause permitted the library authority to co-operate with other bodies, in particular the Linenhall Library. The Department has clarified that the clause does permit the library authority to make partnership arrangements as it sees fit. At the Committee meeting of 11 October, members agreed that we were content with that response.

1695. Mr Shannon: In respect of clause 3(2)(e), on the acceptance of gifts, are the gifts in question above board and documented? I want to know whether a donation is always documented.

1696. Mr Jack: The Department expects that the library authority would have guidance on gifts and hospitality, as any public-sector organisation would. The intention behind the provision in the Bill is primarily concerned with the acceptance of gifts of books, or collections of books. Conceivably, someone might make a donation to the library authority in order to buy new books, and the Department would expect that to be open and above board.

1697. Mr Shannon: I want to see a very transparent exercise.

1698. Mr K Robinson: Would that cover a situation whereby someone felt inspired to bequest money to a particular library?

1699. Mr Jack: Yes; it would cover that.

1700. The Chairperson: Is that understood, or will it be specified in a memorandum?

1701. Mr Jack: The Department understands that it does need not be specified because it is covered legally by the term “gifts”.

1702. The Chairperson: Are members satisfied with that?

1703. Mr K Robinson: The reason that I raised the point — and Nelson will understand this — is that some of the schools in Belfast still receive bequest money from former linen mill owners. Although those sums are miniscule these days, a bequest could be a significant sum when it is initially made, and presumably that will carry on into the future.

1704. Mr Jack: We expect that there will more detail on those types of issues in the financial memorandum management statement that the library authority will be required to have.

1705. Mr McCausland: On occasions, in some libraries, bequests were made of books that were to be retained in perpetuity, but the library decided to sell the books. In one case, a library had to buy the books back.

1706. Mr K Robinson: Members will know of one site in the north of the city that has caused the board, and the authority before it, problems. Historically, that library is there for a particular reason, although it sits on a prime site.

1707. Mr McCausland: How the books were received by the library is not a legislative issue, but, in practice, the library should be careful about how they receive books and under what conditions.

1708. Mr Jack: The Bill states that the authority may accept gifts. I suppose that it is implicit in that that there could be circumstances in which the authority might decide not to accept gifts.

1709. Mr Bradley: I believe my question has already been answered: does the Bill allow a library to refuse gifts that would be a burden on it, rather than an advantage to it?

1710. The Chairperson: There could be such a gift.

1711. Mr Jack: Yes; that is covered by the Bill.

1712. Mr Shannon: Can you explain what is meant by the Bill stating that the authority may “invest money”? We always hear how tight the budget is, so I am keen to know what that means. I have asked my two party colleagues, and they do not know.

1713. Ms Irene Armstrong (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): That is a standard provision. I suspect that the authority will not be equipped to invest a public grant, but it might have a bequeathal that was worth investing. It is not something that has been thought through in detail.

1714. Mr Shannon: The library authority would hardly be buying stocks and shares.

1715. Ms Armstrong: No.

1716. Mr Shannon: That is what I thought. That is OK.

1717. Mr Jack: The Department is advised that that is a standard provision for a non-departmental public body. There might be a situation in which there has been a bequest or a donation and it might be prudent to invest for a return.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 (Power of Authority to undertake commercial activities)

1718. The Chairperson: There was concern that this clause implied that libraries could be judged on their commercial success. The Department has clarified that libraries will not be measured according to their commercial activities and that this clause is designed to allow libraries to carry out such activities as selling local books and running coffee shops. At its meeting on 11 October 2007, the Committee agreed that it was content with that response. Having established that the Committee is content with clause 4(1), we shall proceed.

1719. Mr McCausland: The power to carry out those activities is given to the library authority. How does that devolve down to an individual library?

1720. Mr Jack: The individual library is part of the authority. The level of delegation for those activities would be a management issue for the authority. Any action of an individual library, provided it was properly authorised, would constitute an action of the authority.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 (Charges for certain library services)

1721. The Chairperson: The explanatory and financial memorandum states that this clause retains the principle of a free public-lending library, and free access to information. Concerns have been expressed that this clause does not guarantee free core services. The Committee asked the Minister to amend the wording of this clause in line with the wording suggested by the Southern Education and Library Board. The Minister responded by explaining that not all book borrowing and information access is free, and, therefore, the Committee’s preferred wording would not reflect current practice.

1722. The Assembly Bill Office subsequently advised the Committee that it may not be wise, or possible, to be prescriptive about free services in the legislation. The Bill Office pointed to the fact that we now have a ministerial assurance that there is no intention to introduce charging for core services. The Committee agreed with that advice, and subsequently wrote to the Minister, seeking his assurance that he would consult with the Committee before making any changes to the charging policy. The Minister gave that assurance in his letter of 27 November 2007, which has been tabled today. Therefore, we are content with the current wording of clause 6(1).

1723. The Committee also had a concern about clause 6(2), in that it allows the Department to make different charges to different persons, or in different circumstances or localities. However, after hearing the Minister’s evidence, we agreed at the meeting held on 25 October 2007 that we were content with the clause as drafted, because the Minister intended to introduce a standardised set of charges for all libraries. We asked the Minister to clarify whether he had legislative cover to make different charges to senior citizens.

1724. The Minister’s response was that different charges for older people are justifiable on the grounds of the policy objective of encouraging children to read, and because senior citizens may be less able to pay. The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 cover the fields of employment and vocational training in relation to colleges, but do not impact on the Libraries Bill. At our meeting of 22 November, members agreed that they were content with that response.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 (Byelaws in respect of use of library facilities)

1725. The Chairperson: This clause enables the library authority to make by-laws in relation to conduct in, and use of, library facilities, and enables officers of the authority to remove persons who contravene those by-laws. Contravention of the by-laws creates an offence and a summary conviction, which attracts a fine. Any by-laws that are made must be confirmed by the Department. We had no issues with clause 7.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 (Grants for or in connection with library services)

1726. The Chairperson: This clause enables the Department to pay grants to persons or bodies other than the library authority for the provision of certain library services. The clause also permits the library authority to make such grants in place of the Department by an Order that will be subject to negative resolution. We had no issues with clause 8.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 (Directions)

1727. The Chairperson: This clause enables the Department to give directions to the authority. There were no issues with clause 9.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (Amendments and repeals)

1728. The Chairperson: This clause refers to the amendments and the repeals of existing legislation as set out in schedules 3 and 4. There were no issues with clause 10.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 (Interpretation)

1729. The Chairperson: This clause defines the terms “authority”, “the Department”, “library material”, “library premises” and “statutory provision”, as used in the Bill. There were no issues with clause 11.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 (Commencement)

1730. The Chairperson: This clause specifies which clauses of the Bill come into operation one month after the Bill receives Royal Assent. The other clauses come into force when the Department makes an order to that effect. We know that the Minister intends to establish the library authority on 1 April 2009.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 12 agreed to.

Clause 13 (Short title)

1731. The Chairperson: This clause simply states the title of the Bill.

1732. McCausland: We must change the year — it states “2007”.

1733. The Committee Clerk: We can assume that that will happen automatically.

1734. The Chairperson: That is a good legalistic approach from Nelson. We must be exact in these matters.

1735. Mr K Robinson: My disagreement may not concern the title; however, on page 8 of the Bill, which deals with the membership of the authority —

1736. Mr Shannon: We will come to that.

1737. Mr K Robinson: Sorry; it was just in case I lost my place during this gallop through the Bill.

1738. The Chairperson: We are merely dealing with the short title.

1739. Mr D Bradley: I wish to seek clarity on a point concerning clause 12. Will the library authority’s establishment on 1 April 2009 be synchronised with the first education Bill?

1740. Mr Jack: The Minister of Education is planning for the education and skills authority to come into effect from 1 April 2009, and the education Bill will be brought forward on that basis.

1741. Mr D Bradley: The education Bill will come in two stages. Will the first education Bill provide for a schools’ library service?

1742. Mr Jack: Yes.

1743. Mr D Bradley: Does that mean that the establishment of the library authority and the schools’ library service will be synchronised?

1744. Mr Jack: Yes.

1745. Mr McCausland: As I am not a member of the Education Committee, will you clarify for me the impact that two education Bills would have on attempts to synchronise with the Libraries Bill?

1746. Mr D Bradley: That is the point that I am trying to make. The section of the education and skills authority that will deal with library services will be established by the first Bill — at the same time as the library authority. If that were not the case, I would be anxious that schools might be left without a library service.

1747. Mr McCausland: I was thinking more about the deconstruction of the boards into two parts: libraries and education. Will that co-ordinate with the enactment of the Libraries Bill?

1748. Mr Jack: The first education Bill will establish the education and skills authority and will replace the education and library boards, and will therefore make provision for the schools’ library service. The second education Bill will add some additional functions to the education and skills authority.

1749. Mr D Bradley: The second education Bill will deal with sectoral issues.

1750. Mr Jack: Yes.

1751. The Chairperson: We must return to clause 13.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 13 agreed to.

Schedule 1 (The Northern Ireland Library Authority)

1752. The Chairperson: Members should refer to pages 8 to 12 of the Bill, and the bottom paragraph of page 4, continuing to page 5, of the memorandum.

1753. Mr Shannon: I propose that the membership of the authority be changed to include no more than 17 members — consisting of 9 elected members and 8 others — and that the chairperson of the authority should always be an elected member.

1754. The Chairperson: I have noted that. What are members’ opinions? Perhaps the Committee Clerk might suggest options?

1755. The Committee Clerk: We are waiting for the Minister’s response on the question of membership, and the Committee could defer its decision until next week’s meeting.

1756. Mr Shannon: I will seek guidance on the best way to approach that matter. Should we make the Minister aware that that is our intention, in order that he might respond accordingly? I understand that he may be sympathetic to that proposal.

1757. The Chairperson: We will discuss paragraph 2 of schedule 1 in a moment. Schedule 1 contains 19 paragraphs, and covers the status of the authority, the appointment of board members, the employment of staff, committee proceedings, and accounting arrangements.

1758. Paragraph 1 states that the authority shall not be regarded as an agent of the Crown. No issues have been raised. Are Members content that paragraph 1 stand part of the Bill?

Members indicated assent.

1759. Paragraph 2 deals with the membership of the board of the authority, the number of members and their experience. Ken Robinson, Jim Shannon and others expressed major concerns about this.

1760. The Bill currently specifies that the board consist of seven to 14 members. The Committee wrote to the Minister and asked that he amend the clause to allow 20 members. Jim Shannon’s approach is now slightly different, and he suggests that there be 17 members, nine of whom are elected local authority members, eight others, and that the chairperson be an elected member. As the Committee has not yet received the Minister’s response, it is sensible to revisit paragraph 2 at the Committee meeting of 6 December 2007.

1761. Mr McCausland: If the Minister comes back to the Committee with suggestions, one of the difficulties may be that we will still not have a sense of how many local authorities there will be. That will not become clear for some months, so I see some difficulty. What is the final date on which the Committee has to reach a decision on the Bill?

1762. Mr Jack: We hope that the Minister will respond to the Committee’s letter in time for next week’s meeting, but we understand that the Minister is sympathetic to the general direction of the type of model that you outline. The Department is conscious that the number of local authorities has not been finalised; on that issue and others we need advice from the legislative draftsman about how the wording might accommodate different models. I expect that the Minister would want to sign up to certain principles concerning with the balance of the board and so on.

1763. Mr McCausland: Will the Committee next week agree only broad principles, for instance, the principle that there should be a majority from the elected sector? The fine-tuning of numbers will be impacted on by how many local authorities emerge.

1764. Mr Jack: It may be that some of those issues might need to be tied up in subordinate legislation when the time comes. My suspicion is that the Committee will need to make its view clear in its report on the Bill. We will take advice on how we can best meet the objectives that the Committee and the Minister want to meet.

1765. Mr K Robinson: The underlying problem is that there is a legacy of distrust from those of us who have served in local government on how, over the years, we have been treated by central authority, whether under direct rule or the current dispensation. That underlines our concern that representation at local level is important for any of these bodies. Since this is the first, we are establishing the principle that we want local government, in its new format, to be able to reflect the wishes of communities and geographical areas. That underlying principle causes our concern.

1766. Mr Shannon: It is also important that the balance is correct and that it lies towards elected representatives where decisions are concerned. A membership of 20 is a suggestion, but it is better to have an uneven number, even if that were to mean one more board member. I agree with Ken Robinson in that I see the proposed library authority as setting a trend, perhaps a precedent, of what is to come after it. Therefore, it is important that it is done correctly. If local councillors are involved, the process will have a responsible accountability, and that is no disrespect to independent members. The elected members represent the people, the community and therefore the balance of power should lie with them.

1767. The Chairperson: Are you prescriptive in your mind that there should be 17 board members?

1768. Mr Shannon: Yes, that is the number I had in my mind. A manageable committee is needed, whether there are 17 members or 19, and it is important that elected representatives make up the majority and that they always hold the chair. That means that the board would be run by members of elected status, and with accountability to the people.

1769. The Chairperson: Does that answer your question about the number of elected representatives, Nelson? A prescriptive figure of 17 or 19 would result in a 9-8 or a 10-9 vote.

1770. Mr McCausland: All of the local authorities should have some input.

1771. Mr K Robinson: When we discussed this matter previously we proposed that an agency might act on behalf of local authorities rather than local councils, although some of us have reservations about that.

1772. The Chairperson: Are we going to revisit that issue? That is the key point.

1773. Mr McCausland: I am quite open about the matter. I sat on the board of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum at one time, and have served on others. I remember one individual who had been appointed to a public body who slept through most of the meetings.

1774. Mr K Robinson: Do not point at me. It was not me.

1775. Mr McCausland: It certainly was not you. It is important that we think carefully about that.

1776. The Chairperson: Are you saying that that person did not exercise the challenge function? He slept through the meetings?

1777. Mr McCausland: He did not prolong the meetings. [Laughter.]

1778. The Chairperson: The Committee was also concerned about the makeup of the Board. We wrote to suggest that the authority “shall be representative of the community”. That point was raised by Nelson. That wording follows the example set in Section 73(4) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, concerning the makeup of the Equality Commission. The Minister’s response has not been received, so we must defer that matter as well.

1779. We now proceed to paragraph 3.

1780. Mr K Robinson: Just before you do, Chairperson, paragraph 2(2), on making appointments, states that:

“the Department shall so far as practicable secure that each member of the Authority has experience in a field of activity relevant to the discharge of the functions of the Authority.”

1781. In a perfect world I would have no difficulty with that. However, is it not slightly exclusive, in that certain persons, who might bring a lot to a library authority, may be deemed “outside the loop”? I think particularly of someone who could almost represent the users’ interest. That person might not have experience in a relevant field of activity, but could bring something more to the authority. I do not want the authority to become too incestuous; that is my worry. During one of yesterday’s presentations in another place we got a feeling that some groups become very cosy. I do not want this group to be cosy. I want it to be able to represent the public and the best interests of the library authority.

1782. The Chairperson: That concern will have to be reflected in next week’s discussions.

1783. Paragraph 3 deals with tenure of office, and details processes for the removal, resignation or reappointment of authority members. An issue has been raised about whether this paragraph should specify that the Chair can serve for a maximum of two terms. The Minister has advised that the rules of operation will be set out in detail in the management statement and financial memorandum, which is drawn up by the Department and agreed with the library authority.

1784. The Minister also advised that the Department will draw up the terms and conditions for the appointment of the authority, which will include a maximum tenure of two terms of office for the Chair. Therefore, we have it in writing from the Minister that the Chair will serve a maximum of two terms, and at our meeting of 22 November we agreed that we were content with that. Are Members therefore content with paragraph 3, sub-paragraphs (1), (2), (3) and (4)?

Members indicated assent.

1785. No issues were raised regarding sub-paragraph (5); are members therefore content?

Members indicated assent.

1786. Do Members agree paragraph 3?

Members indicated assent.

1787. Paragraph 4 concerns remuneration, and states that the Department shall determine how much library authority members will be paid. Again no issues have been expressed. Do Members agree paragraph 4?

Members indicated assent.

1788. Paragraph 5 deals with the appointment of a chief executive and other staff. No issues were previously expressed; do members have any concerns now? Do members agree paragraph 5?

Members indicated assent.

1789. The Chairperson: Paragraph 6 deals with secondments from the Civil Service. There were concerns that it implies that the only secondments permitted were from the Civil Service. The Department has explained that that is not the case, and that paragraph 5(1)(b) permits the authority to have such employees as it sees fit, which could include, for example, secondments from the education side or from the Schools Library Service, as well as direct recruits. At our meeting on October 11, the Committee agreed that it was content with that clarification. Do Members agree paragraph 6(1)?

1790. Mr McNarry: Why do we not make clear what they have told us?

1791. The Chairperson: Instead of having understandings?

1792. Mr McNarry: Yes. There is a lot of talent out there, and people could be seconded from library boards.

1793. Mr Jack: Following reflection, the thinking that has emerged is that paragraph 6(1) may not be necessary in terms of seconding people from the Civil Service to the library authority, and that paragraph 5(1)(b) may be sufficient to give the authority that power. When we move to a later stage we may propose to remove paragraph 6(1). In that sense it may not be necessary to include the specification of other groups.

1794. Mr McNarry: If we are not going to say what we think I concur that it may be unnecessary to include it at all, Who knows what employment law could subject it to at some stage? If I am allowed to propose, I propose that it is removed.

1795. Mr Shannon: I second that.

1796. Mr Jack: We would be content if the Committee were to propose that.

1797. Mr McCausland: To return to paragraph 2; does that mean that, at the first meeting of the library authority, the chair would be elected from the membership?

1798. Mr Jack: No, we expect that the chairperson would be appointed by the Minister.

1799. Mr McCausland: Is it not necessary to say that?

1800. Mr Jack: When the legislation says “the Department” the implication is that the Minister will do that.

1801. Mr McCausland: Where does it say that the person who is appointed is the chair of the authority?

1802. Mr Jack: In paragraph 2(1): “The Authority shall consist of —

(a) a Chair; and

(b) not fewer than 7 or more than 14 other members, appointed by the Department.”

1803. Mr McCausland: To take Belfast Education and Library Board as an example, 40% of the members come from the council, but were appointed by the Secretary of State. That does not mean that he chose them, they were chosen by another body, although he formally appointed them. Does paragraph 2(1) need more clarity in that respect? We are examining the issue of membership, so we can come back to that.

1804. The Chairperson: We can revisit that.

1805. Mr McNarry: I did not have the audacity to go back and pick at a point —

1806. The Chairperson: You would never do that.

1807. Mr McNarry: I am glad that Nelson did. If I picked up correctly on what was being said regarding the elected members, and the chair being an elected person, how does the Minister feel about making a political appointment? That is what it would be.

1808. Mr Jack: The Minister will reflect on the whole mechanism for appointing the board and the chairperson in light of the views that expressed by the Committee and others. The answer is that he will have a view on how the chair should be appointed from the membership.

1809. Mr McNarry: The chairperson will hold their position for two terms. Precedent will be set. It will be a political appointment no matter what way you look at it if the Minister accepts the opinion that we have offered because the chairperson will be an elected representative. For public consumption, I would advise the Minister — whoever he or she may be at that time — to tread cautiously with the political appointment of the library authority. If it is the Minister’s call, it is the Minister’s call, but it must be understood that it is a political appointment.

1810. Mr Jack: This will be discussed in more detail at next week’s Committee meeting, but we would expect the principle of appointment on merit, under the guidance of the office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, to apply to the appointments. There are mechanisms by which that principle could be applied to a pool of nominees who come forward from district councils. Variations on that process would allow the chairperson to be interviewed, even if that person had been initially nominated to the process by a council. An interview process could take place that involved employment on merit.

1811. Mr McNarry: I will not dwell on it, but neither you nor the Bill has gone into the process of appointing board members. You make an assumption that they will be nominated. The process is not dealt with by the Bill. Clarification is needed on the process before you can take that next step.

1812. The Chairperson: It is our intention to revisit that paragraph at next week’s Committee meeting at Belfast Central Library.

1813. Mr McNarry: We just need an answer for clarification

1814. The Chairperson: Do members agree that paragraph 6(1) be deleted on the proposal of David McNarry, seconded by Jim Shannon?

Members indicated assent.

1815. Do members agree paragraph 6 minus subparagraph 1?

Members indicated assent.

1816. Paragraph 7, entitled “Remuneration, allowances and pensions of employees”, allows the authority to pay its employees salaries, allowances and pension contributions with the approval of the Department. The Committee has not previously expressed any issues with this paragraph. Do members agree paragraph 7?

Members indicated assent.

1817. The Committee has not previously expressed any issues with paragraph 8, entitled “Arrangements for assistance”. Do members agree paragraph 8?

Members indicated assent.

1818. Mr K Robinson: Does that paragraph also include consultants?

1819. Mr Jack: Yes, it does.

1820. Mr K Robinson: I just make the point.

1821. The Chairperson: Paragraph 9 deals with committees and allows the library authority to establish committees, which can have members from or outside the authority. No issues have previously been expressed by the Committee on paragraph 9. Do members agree paragraph 9?

Members indicated assent.

1822. The Chairperson: Paragraph 10 concerns delegation to committees and staff, and allows the library authority to delegate its function to committees or to staff, and for committees to delegate their functions to staff. Again, no issues were raised.

1823. Mr McNarry: Is it in order to ask if officials are making us aware of anything that we are not picking up and that we should revisit? There was a view about paragraph 6, and officials agreed that subparagraph 1 should be removed. Are we agreeing to anything else that officials identify as having a question mark? Could they tell us?

1824. Mr Jack: Yes. There have not been any others.

1825. Mr McNarry: Are there likely to be?

1826. Mr Jack: There are some issues in schedule 3, but we have not got that far yet.

1827. The Chairperson: Will the information be volunteered prior to completing the section?

1828. Mr Jack: Yes.

1829. The Chairperson: I anticipate agreement regarding paragraph 10. Do Members agree paragraph 10?

Members indicated assent.

1830. The Chairperson: Paragraphs 11 and 12 deal with proceedings, and discuss the content of standing orders to be made by the library authority and the validity of proceedings. No issues were expressed. Do Members agree paragraphs 11 and 12?

Members indicated assent.

1831. The Chairperson: Paragraphs 13 and 14 concern the application of seal and documents. They are self-explanatory, and no issues have been raised. Do Members agree paragraphs 13 and 14?

Members indicated assent.

1832. The Chairperson: Paragraph 15 deals with premises.

1833. Mr K Robinson: I am happy as the long as the headquarters is not based in Omagh.

1834. Mr Shannon: Or Dungiven.

1835. The Chairperson: I will accept Strabane. Paragraph 15 permits library premises to be inspected by the Department. No issues have been expressed. Do Members agree paragraph 15?

Members indicated assent.

1836. The Chairperson: Paragraph 16 concerns finance and allows the Department to make payments to the library authority, and the Department to receive any money made by the authority. No issues have been expressed. Do members agree paragraph 16?

Members indicated assent.

1837. The Chairperson: Paragraph 17 deals with the accounts that the library authority is required to keep. No issues have previously been raised. Do Members agree paragraph 17?

Members indicated assent.

1838. The Chairperson: Paragraph 18, regarding the annual report, is self-explanatory. If there are no issues, do Members agree paragraph 18?

Members indicated assent.

1839. The Chairperson: Paragraph 19 concerns interpretation, and is straightforward. No issues have been expressed. Do Members agree paragraph 19?

Members indicated assent.

Schedule 1 referred for further consideration.

Schedule 2 (Transfer schemes)

1840. The Chairperson: Schedule 2 will be dealt with at our meeting on 6 December 2007, when officials from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office will be present.

Schedule 2 referred for further consideration.

Schedule 3: Amendments

Schedule 4: Repeals

1841. The Chairperson: Schedule 3 sets out the amendments to other legislation as a result of the Bill, and schedule 4 sets out repeals. Members have raised no issues concerning either schedule.

1842. Mr Jack: Since consideration of the Bill commenced, it has emerged that further amendments may be necessary to legislation within the remit of other Departments. We will identify those and bring them to the Committee for discussion as soon as we can before Consideration Stage.

1843. Mr McNarry: The Department should flag those up clearly to the Committee before the Consideration Stage. How soon before Consideration Stage can it do that?

1844. Ms Armstrong: We are working on that at the moment. I hope that that will be done before Christmas and certainly before the Committee is due to report to us.

1845. Mr McNarry: Thank you.

Schedules 3 and 4 referred for further consideration.

1846. The Chairperson: The Committee thanks Colin, Irene and Julie for sitting through the process this morning. Next week, we will revisit other aspects of it.

6 December 2007

Witnesses:

Mr Colin Jack Ms Julie Mapstone		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Noel Kelly		Departmental Solicitor’s Office

1847. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): The Committee will continue its clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Libraries Bill.

1848. The Committee Clerk: Since the sound in this room is not as good as in our Committee Rooms, I ask the witnesses to speak up so that their voices will be picked up by the recording system and heard by Hansard.

1849. The Chairperson: I refer members to the new timetable for the Libraries Bill prepared by the Committee Office. The Committee has only three more meetings before it must complete its clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Bill. That means that all the outstanding issues with the Department must be resolved over the next three meetings; there is a small matter of Christmas to be considered.

1850. I advise members that last week we covered most of the Bill’s clauses; some clauses, however, were deferred until today’s meeting. I welcome Mr Colin Jack and Ms Julie Mapstone from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and Mr Noel Kelly from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office; they are here to provide clarification on the clauses, should members require it. The Principal Clerk of Bills from the Assembly’s Bill Office is on hand to provide advice.

Clause 2 (Duty of Authority to provide library service)

1851. The Chairperson: I ask members to look at clause 2 and the accompanying memorandum. Clause 2 requires the library authority to provide a public library service for people living, working or studying here. It lists the duties of the library authority and enables it to work with other bodies; it also enables the authority to provide library services to visitors.

1852. Issues were raised about this clause. Members queried whether the performance standards for the authority should have to be approved by the Assembly, but after hearing the Minister’s evidence, members decided on 25 October 2007 that they were content that the Minister would monitor standards and, ultimately, report to the Committee.

1853. The Committee also asked the Minister to include a general phrase in clause 2 to make it the duty of the authority to collect and protect material of regional import. The Minister’s response was that the library-stock policy, including that on reference collections, is covered by clause 2(2)(a). He said that he expects to see the library authority develop a collection policy to enable access to local historical research material. However, the Minister is of the view that making it a legislative requirement that the authority must collect all material pertaining to the diaspora is too great a burden for the public library service. It could unbalance the book-purchase budget as well as leave the authority open to litigation should anything be omitted. At the Committee’s meeting of 22 November, members agreed that they were content with that response.

1854. The Committee wrote to the Minister asking that he include the terms, “comprehensive” and “efficient” in the clause. The Minister replied that he is content with our proposals to include the terms “comprehensive” and “efficient” in the legislation and that the legislative draftsman will be asked to find the best way of incorporating those terms. We therefore have it in writing from the Minister that he will take our request on board.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Schedule 1 (The Northern Ireland Library Authority)

1855. The Chairperson: Paragraph 2 of schedule 1 deals with the membership of the authority and specifies the number of members and experience required. The Committee raised issues about the size of the authority; the Bill specifies that it should have between seven and 14 members, but the Committee wrote to the Minister and asked that he amend the clause to allow for 20. In his letter of 27 November 2007 the Minister stated that he is still considering the issue.

1856. At last week’s discussion we recommended a maximum of 17 or 19; most of whom should be elected local representatives and that the chairperson should always be an elected local representative. We use the term local representative to refer to someone in local government — a councillor. I refer members to the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 for guidance on how members of the education and library boards were selected.

1857. The Department has advised that Ms Irene Knox has devised an operational structure for the library authority, of which she is the chief executive designate, and the matter is with the permanent secretary for consideration. When the Minister has approved that structure, it will be forwarded to the Committee. When are we likely to receive it?

1858. Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): I am not entirely sure but either just before or just after Christmas.

1859. The Chairperson: The next step for the Committee is to agree a proposal on what it wishes to be included in the legislation and write to the Minister accordingly. The proposal must include a suggested minimum and maximum number of authority members. Does the Committee wish to state that most members and the chairperson must always be elected representatives drawn from local government? Do we wish to make any additional specifications? Jim, you feel strongly about the matter.

1860. Mr Shannon: I certainly do, Chairman. It is important that the membership reflect elected representation across the Province, and we should stipulate that most members and the chairman will always be elected representatives. I am minded to go for 19 members, but I am conscious that some members may prefer to wait until the number of councils becomes known; although I am not sure when that will be. If we opt for 19 members, is there any way to change it?

1861. Mr Colin Jack (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): Since it is unlikely that the number of district councils will become clear before the Bill has been passed, it is important to establish principles on the balance of the authority’s membership. We need to take further advice on the precise wording of the legislation from the Office of the Legislative Counsel, the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments and other interested parties.

1862. However, a range in the size of membership would allow adjustments to be made based on the number of councils that is eventually decided. We need a formula that will operate effectively now, with 26 councils, and which can be adapted to whatever number of councils there are in the future. I understand that seven, 11 and 15 are the options being considered.

1863. The Principal Clerk of Bills: One possible way of introducing flexibility would be to provide power to make an Order — a statutory rule that would give the Minister power to readdress the figures. If members are unhappy about including a range that would give the Minister the flexibility to vary the figures without any further need to consult the committee, they could stipulate a figure but provide the Minister with the power to make a statutory rule to vary it. However, the statutory rule would have to be approved by the Assembly, which would enable the Assembly to decide whether the change was acceptable.

1864. Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitor’s Office): That is a workable solution, but I will inject a note of caution: your proposition is that the Assembly should approve any regulation, in which case an amendment to introduce such a power would have to be careful to say that the regulation would be by way of positive resolution rather than negative resolution, because, as you appreciate, there are two ways of doing it. A negative resolution is made and becomes law and stays law until there is a motion to annul; you are choosing the other — [Interruption.]

1865. Mr M Wilson: No, I was not, Noel. I simply said that the Minister would be given the power to make a statutory rule; the Office of the Legislative Council would give advice on how the Assembly should deal with it. Negative resolution would probably be appropriate. Members will understand that negative resolution means that there must be a vote in the Assembly to refuse it, and that remains within the power of the Assembly. The Assembly can reject the proposed statutory rule after examining it. That should be sufficient; the change does not require affirmative resolution. It appears a bit over the top.

1866. Mr N Kelly: Either would work.

1867. The Chairperson: Jim, have we found a mechanism for what you hope to achieve?

1868. Mr Shannon: I believe that we have found a mechanism that will bring everyone on board, although I leave the terminology to Martin, who can word it accordingly. The main thing is that the authority’s make-up reflects the geographical representation of the Province. We also want to ensure that elected members from local government form a majority and that the chairperson will always be an elected representative from one of the councils, whether there are 11 or 15 of them.

1869. The Chairperson: You recommend that the authority should have 17 or 19 members.

1870. Mr Shannon: I was referring to the councils.

1871. The Chairperson: Of course.

1872. Mr Shannon: The membership of the authority should reflect that. I am in favour of 19; however, I am conscious that some members may feel that that number is not appropriate. Nevertheless, 19 is, I believe, the number that we should go for.

1873. The Chairperson: You are emphasising the democratic character of the authority.

1874. Mr Shannon: Absolutely. That is my proposal. I thank Martin and Colin for their advice.

1875. Mr Jack: Our understanding of the Minister’s thinking on the matter is that the numbers proposed in schedule 1 as the minimum and maximum are likely to rise no matter how the schedule is amended.

1876. Mr M Wilson: To give effect to Jim’s proposal of 19 we would do away with the range provided in schedule 1(2)(b), and the Committee would ask that the legislation should specify a definitive number; in this case 19. In addition, the Minister would be provided with the power to make regulations.

1877. Mr Shannon: I want to make sure that we specify a number. I propose 19, with the proviso that the Minister can increase it with the approval of the Assembly and the Committee.

1878. Mr K Robinson: We must go back to the principle that we are trying to establish. Through bitter experience, we have discovered that when local councillors are removed from a public body it ceases to function effectively. We have seen that in the Health Service over the years, so we are determined not to go down that path.

1879. There is indecision about how many local councils there will be. However, the quality of the people who will be attracted to the new local councils with enhanced powers will probably be different from local government at present. That is no slight on those who are in local government; it is simply the case that the enhanced powers will attract certain people. With enhanced powers, the balance will change and local government will become a much more effective and attractive institution. Therefore we want to ensure that the principle of local accountability and greater local knowledge, which might be brought to bear by the new brand of councillor, is included.

1880. We suspect that the public appointments structure encourages a very incestuous relationship among management boards — whether for library services, education or health — and a wealth of experience that could be brought to bear on those areas is being lost. That is the principle that we are trying to establish. Perhaps the numbers on the authority are superfluous, but they must reflect the new structures.

1881. The Chairperson: I wonder, Ken, whether the Committee must recommend a specified figure to the Department.

1882. Mr K Robinson: Is the number range being taken out of the equation? Are we being advised not to talk about a range?

1883. Mr Jack: The next stage is for the Committee to decide what it puts in its report, which the Department and the Minister will consider based on discussions with the Office of the Legislative Counsel and what it recommends as workable. The more detail the Committee provides on the principles that it wants to see enshrined in the legislation, the better. If the Committee has strong views on specific numbers, it would be helpful if it would specify them.

1884. Mr K Robinson: We wish to include the principle of geographical spread. I would hate to be left out of the loop when everything moves to Omagh. I have that in the back of my mind. [Laughter.]

1885. The Chairperson: That is an excellent point.

1886. Mr K Robinson: We are aware of issues such as geographical spread, gender and community attachment; the education and library boards manage to work under that umbrella. Those are the sort of principles that we want to establish.

1887. Mr Brolly: Ken raised the notion of examining the quality of people who apply for positions rather than the quantity. Quality is important in such organisations. Normally appointments are made by somebody proposing one of his or her party members and the other members agreeing. The poor fellow might be illiterate, if you understand what I am saying — [Laughter.]

1888. Mr Shannon: Which of your party members are you referring to?

1889. The Chairperson: Such a person would bring an interesting perspective on literacy to the new library authority.

1890. Mr Brolly: There should be criteria for deciding whether a person is suitable to make judgements about education or library matters.

1891. The Chairperson: I want to conclude the debate on the size of the authority. Are we being prescriptive about the figure?

1892. Mr Jack: The Department would want to examine the issue of the quality of authority members. There are models that would allow an element of competition for the appointment of district council representatives to the library authority. For example, one could invite all 26 councils to nominate a person. Those candidates would be interviewed using the criteria applied to authority members who are chosen by public appointment. That is one way in which it could be done in the interim. Perhaps that process could be adapted in some way when there are fewer councils.

1893. Mr D Bradley: The Committee does not need to make a final decision now. Would it be helpful if the Committee Clerk gathered members’ views and came back next week with a form of words that the Committee could recommend to the Department?

1894. The Chairperson: Is that practical, Linda?

1895. The Committee Clerk: The Hansard report, which will contain the detail of members’ deliberations, will not be available, under Hansard procedures, until Thursday 13 December. That restricts members’ ability to discuss those issues before our last meeting.

1896. Mr K Robinson: Is it possible to get an early draft?

1897. The Committee Clerk: We can ask, but it will be up to Hansard.

1898. Mr K Robinson: Given its importance — it is the first Bill from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to be introduced in the Assembly — perhaps Hansard will be in the Christmas spirit.

1899. The Chairperson: We will request that.

1900. Mr K Robinson: I got a hit straight away. [Laughter.]

1901. Mr McCausland: From what Colin was saying, it is clear that the mechanism by which members will be selected for the authority will have to be flexible because it will relate to 26 councils initially, then, ultimately, to however many councils it is decided we should have. Nineteen is a reasonable number with which to start.

1902. The Chairperson: We will revisit that next week, with the benefit of the early Hansard report; we will need to zone in on a figure.

1903. Mr Shannon: I am prepared to propose the figure of 19, as it will enable the authority to be representative of society. As Nelson said, it is a starting point; but we want to move towards a conclusion on this issue.

1904. The Chairperson: There will be a power to vary the number. Are Dominic and Francie OK with that?

1905. Mr D Bradley: Yes.

1906. Mr Brolly: We could rationalise the figure 19 by saying that it is one member for each constituency plus one.

1907. Mr Shannon: You think too much.

1908. Mr Brolly: I was thinking of a geographical spread.

1909. The Chairperson: The Committee’s view is that most authority members should be elected representatives.

1910. Mr Shannon: I propose accordingly.

1911. The Chairperson: Are members agreed?

Members indicated assent.

1912. The Chairperson: The Committee was also concerned about the constitution of the authority. We wrote to the Minister asking that sub-paragraph (2) be amended to state that the authority shall be: “representative of the community in Northern Ireland”.

1913. That is a direct quotation from section 73(4) the Northern Ireland Act 1998 regarding the constitution of the Equality Commission. The Minister has not yet replied.

1914. Do Committee members wish that phrase to be included in sub-paragraph (2)? Furthermore, should it apply to the total membership of the authority or just the non-councillors?

1915. Mr McCausland: The political representation will automatically include councillors from a cross-section of the community. The suggested amendment will be more relevant to the nominated members of the authority.

1916. The Chairperson: It would be sensible to defer sub-paragraph (2) until we receive the Minister’s response.

Schedule 1 referred for further consideration.

Schedule 2 (Transfer schemes)

1917. The Chairperson: Schedule 2 has 10 paragraphs and provides for a scheme for the transfer of property, rights and liabilities from the education and library boards to the library authority. Apart from paragraphs 1 and 4, no issues have been raised concerning schedule 2.

1918. Paragraph 1 of schedule 2 deals with the “Creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities etc.” NIPSA feels that paragraph 1 does not create rights or liabilities between the transferred employee and the transferor and suggests that a further sub-paragraph be added to establish rights and liabilities.

1919. The Committee requested that the Department and NIPSA’s legal counsel meet to sort out the issue. On 19 November, the Committee wrote to the Minister asking him the date on which the meeting was due to take place. As no response was received, this week the Central Committee Office sent a further request for an update. The Central Committee Office was told that a letter would be forthcoming from Julie Mapstone — who is head of the libraries branch in the Department and is responsible for implementing the new library authority outlined in the review of public administration — stating that there had not yet been a meeting between NIPSA’s legal counsel and the representatives from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office. However, the Committee has not yet received that letter.

1920. The Minister gave an undertaking to the Committee when giving evidence on the Bill on 18 October:

It seems sensible to me to put the unions’ lawyer and the Department’s lawyer into one room to see if they can agree on a position — if that is possible to achieve. That is what we are doing. If an agreed position is reached, we will be in a good position to move forward, and we will report back to the Committee at the earliest opportunity.

1921. That quote is from the Hansard report of 18 October 2007.

1922. There are specific questions that the Committee wants the departmental officials to address. What is the state of play at present? Is the Department awaiting a response from NIPSA to its request for a meeting? Could the fact that the Department is represented by the Departmental Solicitor’s Office and NIPSA by senior counsel cause difficulty in arranging a meeting? If so, will the Department consider employing its own senior counsel? I ask for an undertaking that the meeting with NIPSA will take place.

1923. Mr N Kelly: In a letter to the Department, Mr Corey, NIPSA’s general secretary, states that senior counsel did not consider it appropriate to forward to a Department a copy of the full legal opinion that senior counsel had provided to NIPSA as his client.

1924. The Chairperson: What is the date of that letter?

1925. Mr N Kelly: Sixth November 2007; I will give the Committee a copy.

1926. It is not for me to speculate on what was going through senior counsel’s mind, but, ordinarily, when a senior counsel, a junior counsel, a solicitor, an apprentice solicitor or a law clerk gives a legal opinion, it becomes the property of the client, and the client can do what he wants with it. He can put it on the internet, or, if he wants, he can run off copies and paste them on lamp posts outside City Hall. I do not understand the proposition. Mr Corey states in his letter that:

“Senior Counsel… did not consider it appropriate to forward to a Government Department a copy of his full legal opinion”.

1927. However, I cannot comment further on that.

1928. The letter goes on to say:

“However he”

1929. Mr O’Donoghue —

“has also advised and offered that any matters relating to the legal opinion can be discussed directly with Senior Counsel representing the Department.”

1930. Mr Corey knows full well that senior counsel is not instructed on behalf of the Department. Therefore, to my mind, it is not co-operative when, according to Mr Corey, a position is taken by Mr O’Donoghue that he, Mr O’Donoghue, will not speak to anybody who does not have a wig and a silk gown. I cannot comment further on that either. That is the position; I will hand a copy of the letter to the Committee. There is not a great deal more that I can do to help the Committee. My opinion on the legal issues remains as it was.

1931. At the risk of boring the Committee to death, it might be useful if I spoke briefly on The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE). I have run quickly through Mr Corey’s evidence to the Committee, and he is plain wrong about TUPE. It is a complex issue. I am conscious that the Committee is in an awkward position: it has heard an opinion from one experienced lawyer who is a QC; and it has an opinion from another experienced lawyer who is not a QC but who is a chairperson of employment tribunals. The two factors probably cancel each other out. That leaves the Committee faced with two competing legal opinions, without its own legal advice. There is not much more that I can do to address that problem, but it might be of some assistance if I spoke generally about TUPE to highlight some of the issues, as I am concerned that Mr Corey appears to misunderstand the position.

1932. Mr Jack: Last week, the permanent secretary wrote to John Corey, restating that Noel is ready and willing to discuss the matter with senior counsel. To date, there has been no response.

1933. The Chairperson: Thank you.

1934. Noel, it is certainly worth taking the time to comment on TUPE.

1935. Mr N Kelly: It might be of some use. I will not refer to each and every paragraph, but I will pass round a copy of ‘Staff Transfers in the Public Service: Statement of Practice’, which was prepared by the Westminster Government. It deals with the various situations that arise when staff are transferred in or out of the public sector or within the public sector. It is a policy document that draws on the legal principles involved. It sets the matter out clearly — if members could spare half a day to read it. I do not expect that they can. Its thrust is that where the TUPE regulations apply, they should apply; and where they do not, their principles should apply. In other words, legislation should be drafted to ensure that staff in the public sector who in certain circumstances might not be covered by TUPE would receive the same protection as those elsewhere who are automatically covered by TUPE.

1936. What concerns me about the evidence that was provided by Mr Corey is that he states quite clearly that, in his view, TUPE does not apply to the public sector. That is simply wrong. I refer members to the The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. I am amazed that Mr Corey would not be aware that regulation 3(4) states in absolutely plain terms that:

“these Regulations apply to—

(a) public and private undertakings engaged in economic activities whether or not they are operating for gain”.

1937. The wording of the regulations is fairly obscure. That is because they are derived from the acquired rights directive in EU law.

1938. The position is not that TUPE regulations do not apply to the public sector. That is clearly not the case. It is a good deal more complicated than that. The position is set out in paragraphs 17 to 20 of the Cabinet Office policy document that I have provided to the Committee, which refers to situations in which there are transfers and reorganisations in the public sector. That is applicable to the library sector, in which there are, clearly, transfers and reorganisations.

1939. The legal position, which is set out in paragraph 18 of the Cabinet Office statement of practice, is that the application of the TUPE regulations is excluded only in a narrow range of circumstances. As of right, the TUPE regulations apply to all public-sector workers who are transferred, unless they fall into one narrow exemption, namely the reorganisation of public administrative functions. At first glance, one might believe that that wording is sufficient to exclude practically everyone. Again, I must stress that that comes from EU law, and is construed extremely strictly. Therefore, the exemption applies to the smallest possible group of people. Paragraph 18 of the policy document states that:

“Case law suggests that it excludes from the legislation’s application only a relatively limited range of situations involving the transfer of entities pursuing non-economic objectives within the public sector.”

1940. The document goes on to state that:

“The Henke exception” —

which is what I have been discussing —

— “has been thought to apply where: the reason for a transfer is only because there is a change of geographical boundaries and the type of public sector body carrying out the function does not change…or where the main function is a judicial, quasi-judicial or quasi-judicial regulatory function”.

1941. It goes on to suggest that changes should be made to legislation in order to ensure that TUPE protection be afforded to all staff that might otherwise be excluded. Therefore, the situation is that there is a potential transfer of staff to whom it is unclear that the TUPE regulations should apply as of right.

1942. In one interpretation, which has not been fully tested by the courts — although there are references in the footnotes to some decisions — most of the staff will be protected as of right by the TUPE regulations. In another interpretation, a great many of them will not. In order to avoid that confusion when there is a transfer of staff in the public sector, the legislation provides either that the wording of the TUPE regulations is simply replicated — in other words, that it will state specifically that contracts are passed on as they are, which, although I have paraphrased that to the nth degree, is, essentially, one alternative — or the other alternative, which is simply that the transfer is relevant for the purposes of the regulations. Either alternative works.

1943. It appears that part of NIPSA’s reluctance to accept the Department’s action as valid is a reluctance to accept that it can simply be stated in primary legislation that the transfer is a relevant transfer.

1944. Clearly, if it is a relevant transfer, all the protections afforded under the 2006 regulations automatically follow. I am assuming that part of NIPSA’s reluctance is based on that misapprehension.

1945. However, I offer the Committee the following reassurance: it is being proposed that primary legislation means that The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 applies to this transfer. The primary legislation — the Bill — makes it a relevant transfer.

1946. It is also possible to do that by subordinate legislation — which makes it even clearer that it can be done by primary legislation. Paragraph 20 of the Cabinet Office document refers to an English Act — the Employment Relations Act 2004, which states that one can do precisely that. Section 38 of that Act includes a power that can be used to apply the requirements of TUPE specifically to transfers.

1947. We have a similar provision in The Employment Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1999. If we wished, we could make provision by subordinate legislation. However, we have not done it by subordinate legislation because we have primary legislation. It is perfectly clear that primary legislation is better than subordinate legislation. However, that power is in reserve so that if, for example, there is a move within fisheries or some other part of the public sector that is not going to be implemented by legislation, the subordinate power in the 1999 Order to provide TUPE protection can be used.

1948. I underline that reassurance, which can be summed up by saying that if something can be done by subordinate legislation, it can be done by primary legislation. I would stress that if it is a relevant transfer for the purposes of the 2006 regulations, it automatically takes with it all the other protections that appear to be concerning Mr Corey and Mr O’Donoghue — the right to be consulted, etc. If it is a relevant transfer, the regulations apply and those protections flow from that. I shall finish now, before members fall asleep. [Laughter.]

1949. The Chairperson: The Minister will be asked to write formally to the Committee to confirm that he has received legal advice on the matter and is satisfied with that advice, and that the Bill reflects that advice as drafted.

1950. Mr D Bradley: Would that include direct reference to the TUPE regulations?

1951. The Principal Clerk of Bills: All of what Mr Kelly has said is on the record, and will form part of the Committee’s report. The report will include a complete record of all the information that Mr Kelly has provided. The Minister will write to the Committee to state that he has been given advice and is satisfied with it, and is satisfied that his Bill incorporates that advice. It will be for the Committee to decide whether it accepts that.

Schedule 2 referred for further consideration.

Schedule 3 (Amendments)

1952. The Chairperson: Schedule 3 sets out the consequent amendments to other legislation as a result of the Bill. Schedule 4 set out consequent repeals.

1953. At last week’s meeting, the Department advised that it may make amendments to schedules 3 and 4 to include reference to additional legislation. The Committee indicated that it was content with that arrangement.

1954. The Committee accepts that this is a technical matter and that the amendments are necessary and consequent on the legislation. The Committee is content to leave the matter with the Department and the draftsman.

Question, That the Committee is content with the schedule, put and agreed to.

Schedule 3 agreed to.

1955. The Chairperson: There is certain territory into which the Committee should not stray at times. Mr Jack, have you anything to add?

1956. Mr Jack: I do not think that I have much more to say today. We will look forward to receiving the Committee’s report. There are still some significant issues on which the Committee has strong and important views. We will seek to advise the Minister as to how best the Department can take on board those views.

Schedule 4 (Repeals)

1957. The Chairperson: The Committee accepts that this is a technical matter and that the repeals are necessary and consequent on the legislation, and the Committee is content to leave this matter with the Department and the draftsman.

Question, That the Committee is content with the schedule, put and agreed to.

Schedule 4 agreed to.

1958. The Chairperson: Another issue is outstanding. I advise members that Ms Irene Knox, chief executive designate of the library authority, has advised that documentation on the operational structure of the authority will not be sent to the Committee until its meeting of 17 January 2008. She has indicated that she will be able to brief the Committee on that structure at that meeting.

1959. That concludes our considerations of the Libraries Bill for this meeting. I thank the departmental officials for coming. I emphasise to Mr Jack the Committee’s desire for early responses to its requests.

13 December 2007

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson)
Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Dominic Bradley
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

1960. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I refer Committee members to the letter that was sent to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure on 10 December 2007. The letter sets out the Committee’s views on the membership of the new library authority, as discussed at last week’s meeting, and requests confirmation that the Minister is satisfied with the legal advice that he was given with regard to schedule 2. A response is required by 18 December 2007 in order to allow the Committee to continue its clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Bill in January 2008.

1961. Ms Irene Knox, the chief executive designate, will outline the library authority’s operational structure to the Committee on 17 January 2008; the date of the Committee’s second meeting in the new year.

1962. I also refer members to correspondence from the Minister on possible redundancies. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure will provide £660,000 to cover the cost of redundancies in the current financial year. It has also submitted a bid for an additional £782,000 to cover the cost of redundancies in the December monitoring round.

10 January 2008

Witnesses:

Ms Irene Armstrong Ms Julie Mapstone		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Noel Kelly		Departmental Solicitor’s Office

Schedule 1 (The Northern Ireland Library Authority)

Schedule 2 (Transfer Schemes)

1963. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): The Committee has received correspondence from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure in response to its proposals on board membership of the new library authority, contained in paragraph 2 of schedule 1, and also the request for confirmation that the Minister is content with the legal advice that he received about schedule 2, which deals with staff transfers.

1964. Mr K Robinson: It is worth commenting that the Committee was clear about its reasons for wanting the board membership based in that way. The Minister has now accepted that fact, and I am glad that he has responded to the positive views of the Committee, albeit that that was not the case in the early days. We always felt that we were dragging against an unseen weight, and another unseen weight was felt in our earlier discussions.

1965. As the last member to join the Committee, I thought that I was in the dark, because I was always playing catch-up. It is obvious from having listened to members on the far side of the table that we are all playing catch-up on those issues. The Committee dug its heels in on that matter, and it has achieved what it wanted. It is pleasant that the Minister now agrees with us. I hope that that is a good sign that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, the Minister and the Committee can work cohesively.

1966. The Chairperson: We are making some inroads.

1967. Mr McCausland: The Committee raised the issue of diversity. The Minister’s letter states: “Such a statement is not normally included except where the business of the body in question is specifically equality related, or highly politically sensitive.”

1968. Therefore, diversity applies to bodies such as the Northern Ireland Equality Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. Is this not simply a question of good practice? The Minister uses the words “is not normally included except”. In many respects, we are in a new realm. There are not many newly constituted bodies; the bodies that come to mind immediately are the Equality Commission, the Human Rights Commission and the Northern Ireland Policing Board. I do not know the precise terminology that describes the Equality Commission or the Human Rights Commission, but it is good practice for a body to reflect Northern Ireland society. It does not work in the case of the Human Rights Commission or the Equality Commission, because those organisations do not reflect Northern Ireland society. However, the principle of diversity of membership is a good principle, particularly in the case of a cultural body such as the library authority, which should reflect the cultural diversity of Northern Ireland. Why use the words “not normally included” when there are not many examples? Should we not simply be establishing good practice?

1969. Mr Shannon: I concur with Ken’s comments. The Committee clearly intimated to the Minister and the Department its wish that the board of the library authority be constituted in a certain way and that the balance should lie in favour of elected representatives rather than independent members. The Minister has taken the Committee’s view on board and has responded accordingly. The Committee should take some credit for its negotiations with the Minister. He realised that the Committee had provided the best solution, with which he agreed.

1970. Mr K Robinson: Unfortunately, Chairperson, if we were to make a positive decision, it would exclude us from membership of the Luddite society.

1971. The Chairperson: Do you have any unresolved concerns, Nelson?

1972. Mr McCausland: I still think that it is a missed opportunity. The Committee has prevailed on the matter of board membership, but diversity is a good principle.

1973. The Chairperson: You might have another opportunity to present that argument to senior officials from the Department, who will join us shortly.

1974. We will go back to Ken’s point. The Minister has agreed that a majority of the members of the board of the library authority should be elected representatives of district councils. He has also agreed that the board should comprise 19 members and that the requirement of a majority of places for elected representatives will be stated in the legislation. As you say, Ken, the Minister has listened.

1975. Mr K Robinson: It is a major step forward.

1976. The Chairperson: The Department will have to amend paragraph 2(1)(b) of schedule 1.

1977. Let us move on to paragraph 2(1)(a) of schedule 1. The Committee had agreed to ask the Minister to amend this provision so that the chair of the board of the library authority will always be an elected local government representative. In his letter, however, the Minister has expressed his wish to leave open the issue of the recruitment of the chair of the board. The letter states:

“It will of course be open to District Councillors to apply for the post of Chair”.

1978. That is not necessarily the same thing, but it is par for the course here.

1979. Is the Committee satisfied with the Minister’s response? If not, the Committee would have to put down its own amendment. Is it fair to say that the Committee is broadly content?

Members indicated assent.

1980. The Chairperson: Paragraph 2 deals with membership. I advise members that the Committee had agreed to ask the Minister to amend the paragraph to state that the library authority shall be representative of the community. That is Nelson’s point. It mirrors the words used in section 73(4) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 concerning the make-up of the Equality Commission.

1981. In the Minister’s letter, he mentions the issues of equality and diversity. We might tease out those issues further with the departmental officials. The Department has said that any amendments to the Bill will not be included until the Committee produces its final report in February. That includes amendments to which the Minister has agreed.

1982. The Principal Clerk of Bills: It would be more in line with good practice for the Committee to receive the wording of amendments before it signs off its report. There are a couple of reasons for that. It would avoid the possibility — the likelihood, even — of problems in dealing with amendments when the Bill reaches Consideration Stage, which will follow some time after the Committee’s report has been completed.

1983. If the Committee has not seen those amendments in advance and satisfied itself that the amendments are exactly as it had anticipated, problems arise about additional issues that must be dealt with in detail, after the Committee has concluded its detailed examination. In other words, it is much more difficult to deal with the detail in the Assembly Chamber than it is to deal with detail at Committee Stage.

1984. I strongly recommend, to the Department and the Committee, that the Committee should request the drafted amendments before it signs off its report. That means that when the Committee has signed off its report, it is agreeing the Bill in its finalised form. That is in line with good practice, as it has been developed for other Committees. I recommend that the Committee should seek to have the amendments brought to it and have them agreed before it completes its report.

1985. The Chairperson: Are members content with that arrangement?

Members indicated assent.

1986. The Chairperson: Schedule 2 deals with transfer schemes. The Committee’s letter to the Minister of 10 December 2007 sought his assurance that he was satisfied with the legal advice that he had received about schedule 2. In the Minister’s letter, he confirms that he is content with the legal advice that he has received. Are Members content to proceed with the line-by-line reading of paragraph 2 of schedule 1 and paragraphs 1 and 4 of schedule 2, now that we have the Minister’s assurance?

1987. Mr McNarry: I am happy to proceed with the line-by-line reading, but not necessarily on the basis of the Minister’s assurance. Although I am not challenging the Minister’s assurance, further information on the legal side is still to be provided. Will the Committee hear more about that today?

1988. The Chairperson: You are entitled to ask that question, and you will be given the opportunity to do so.

1989. Mr McNarry: How will I get that opportunity?

1990. The Chairperson: You will get the opportunity when senior departmental officials join the meeting.

1991. Mr McNarry: Are you suggesting to me, or are you telling me — with all due respect to the senior departmental officials — that the Committee is going to undertake a line-by-line reading in their presence and that members will ask them for their opinion? That would make those officials, in effect, members of the Committee.

1992. The Chairperson: No, it would not. However, you are entitled to seek information en route. That is the plan.

1993. Mr McNarry: I find that to be very strange.

1994. The Principal Clerk of Bills: That is the normal process. In other words, the Committee is examining each paragraph. If the Committee is content, it agrees the paragraph.

1995. Mr McNarry: The Committee has examined lots of paragraphs without the presence of departmental officials. Why are they here today?

1996. The Chairperson: Departmental officials were present at Committee meetings on previous occasions.

1997. Mr McNarry: I do not recall having seen them sitting in a meeting of the Committee.

1998. The Chairperson: Your recollection may not tally with that of others.

1999. Mr McNarry: You mean that they were sitting at the table — formally — in the meeting, with their name tags as the Committee undertook a line-by-line reading of the Bill?

2000. The Chairperson: I will ask the Committee Clerk about that matter.

2001. The Committee Clerk: On previous occasions, departmental officials and representatives from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office were present at Committee meetings. The last meeting at which the Committee discussed the Libraries Bill was held in Belfast Central Library. Mr McNarry was unable to attend that meeting. Departmental officials appeared as witnesses at that meeting to assist on any issues that the Committee raised.

2002. Mr McNarry: I fully understand and accept that. However, at a previous Committee meeting at which I was present, when a line-by-line reading was undertaken — not when the Committee met at Central Library — I do not recall any officials sitting in on that meeting. Am I correct in saying that?

2003. The Committee Clerk: We can consult the minutes.

2004. The Chairperson: We can check that fact from the minutes.

2005. Mr McNarry: Is there a sudden lapse of memory about these things? Were they here or were they not here?

2006. The Chairperson: For the sake of accuracy, David, we will check the minutes of the previous meetings at which we analysed the Bill to find out whether senior officials were in attendance, and in what capacity those officials were in attendance.

2007. Mr McNarry: I am not having a senior moment, and I do not want to think that I am. It is too early in the year for that.

2008. The Chairperson: At this point in the meeting, I invite Mr Noel Kelly from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office and senior officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Julie Mapstone and Irene Armstrong, to join us. Thank you for coming this morning. Before I move to the line-by-line reading of paragraph 2 of schedule 1 and paragraphs 1 and 4 of schedule 2, I will tidy up the issues that remain from schedule 1.

2009. Paragraph 2 of schedule 1 relates to membership. I am seeking an assurance from the departmental officials that the Minister has taken legal advice on the diversity issue.

2010. Mr McCausland: I have a point on the diversity and representativeness of the board of the library authority. The Minister’s letter states that he: “will be in a position to ensure the balance we seek.”

2011. If one were seeking balance, would it not make sense to have it in the wording of the legislation?

2012. Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): The Department has not sought legal advice on the diversity issue. We followed the pattern of other bodies sponsored by DCAL, such as the Arts Council and Sport Northern Ireland, which are not obliged to comply with equality legislation.

2013. Mr McCausland: Those bodies were set up umpteen years ago, and we have moved on since then. Is it not the case that the more recently established bodies such as the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission are subject to diversity legislation? Cultural bodies should reflect the cultural diversity of Northern Ireland.

2014. The Chairperson: Julie, can you park that issue? Dominic Bradley and David McNarry will ask their questions, and then you can give a composite answer.

2015. Mr D Bradley: The Minister states that an attempt to have a diverse board might conflict with section 75 groups. I would have thought that that attempt might also fit in well with section 75, depending on how diversity was defined.

2016. Mr McNarry: I recall Mr Noel Kelly attending a Committee meeting on a previous occasion regarding legalities and concerns that the Committee had over representations that it had from trade unions. We left that issue with Mr Kelly in the hope that he would have discussions with the trade unions’ legal representative.

2017. Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitor’s Office): That is correct. You will recall that that session was held at Central Library on 6 December 2007. At that stage, the Department had not received a reply from the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA), and no meeting had been facilitated. Furthermore, no copy of the final opinion from NIPSA’s senior counsel, Frank O’Donoghue QC, was furnished. Things have moved on slightly, in that NIPSA wrote to the Department on 10 December 2007. John Corey, NIPSA’s general secretary, states: “First, we were not aware until I spoke with Julie Mapstone last month that the Department was not being advised by counsel.”

2018. You will recall that NIPSA said that its senior counsel would not discuss the matter with me because I was not a senior counsel. Mr Corey states that he was not aware that the Department was not being advised by counsel — and of course I accept what he says — but I am not sure what difference it makes. The letter continues:

“Second, to avoid unnecessary complications Senior Counsel has advised that Noel Kelly contacts directly NIPSA’s Solicitor Mr Viv Harty.”

2019. Mr Harty’s address and phone number are supplied. I tried to phone, but I got no response. Therefore, on 20 December 2007, I delivered a letter by hand to Viv Harty’s office; it summarised the issue and stated that the matter arose:

“because of a helpful intervention by Mr McNarry MLA in the Assembly Committee who suggested that I should meet with Mr O’Donoghue QC to discuss the differences in opinion which are apparent in the matter. For some reason that I do not understand, that meeting has not proved possible.”

2020. The letter went on to say that I had tried to phone Viv Harty but had been unable to reach him. It stated:

“If you feel it would be helpful, I am willing to meet to discuss this matter further with either you or with Mr O’Donoghue on Friday 21st (pm), Thursday 27th (all day) or Friday 28th (all day) December or a date in January to be agreed.”

2021. I have received no response.

2022. Mr McNarry: Thank you, Mr Kelly. I appreciate the efforts that you have made to seek a solution to that matter. I am wrestling with two issues. First, there is the question of whether to move on to line-by-line scrutiny of the schedule on the basis of the Minister’s assurances. I am slightly concerned, being mindful of the potential for legal challenge, that the Minister has made a decision unsighted of any legal challenge that may arise, because there have been no real discussions.

2023. The Committee has treated NIPSA very fairly. Members listened to its case. The Committee attempted to facilitate a resolution, or at least contact between Mr Noel Kelly and its representatives. I wonder whether members share my view that we should tell NIPSA that we have heard about Mr Kelly’s efforts to contact its officials and ask where that leaves the Committee. We should ask NIPSA whether it intends to withdraw its previous concerns or whether it thinks that the Committee is at least entitled to an explanation about where it stands on the issue of potential legal challenges.

2024. I am sure that all members agree that our concern is that we do not want to agree a Bill in the knowledge that there is every prospect of its being challenged in court 24 hours later. It would be very disingenuous of us to do that in the light of what Mr Kelly has reported to us.

2025. Mr N Kelly: If I might interject; it is unlikely that there will be a challenge to the Bill in the time frame that you suggest. NIPSA is suggesting that, at some future date, if there were a dispute about the transfer of a member of staff that ends up in an industrial tribunal, possibly two years down the line, a tribunal chairperson will take a different interpretation of the legislation to that which the Department, the draftsman and I take.

2026. It is easy to suggest such a possible situation. It is always possible to say that the legislation could be challenged. That is how lawyers make a living — thank God. You can never rule out a challenge. However, that is where it sits. I am content, if the transfer is stated in the legislation to be a relevant transfer for the purposes of the 2006 regulations, that carries with it all the protections that flow from the transfer being a relevant transfer. At the meeting in Central Library, I practically put the entire Committee to sleep by going through the mechanics and background of the legislation.

2027. NIPSA’s objection is that it suggests that, at some point — perhaps two years down the line — the legislation might be challenged if there is a dispute about a transfer. The legislation may be challenged, but my opinion is that it is good.

2028. Mr McNarry: I am grateful to Mr Kelly. I can see why the Minister has said what he said in his letter, and I am prepared to accept that. I still ask that the Committee writes to NIPSA on the basis of what it has heard today and asks for explanations.

2029. The Chairperson: Do members agree that the Committee writes to NIPSA?

Members indicated assent.

2030. The Chairperson: Do members agree to paragraph 2(1)(a) of schedule 1, subject to amendment?

2031. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Have we agreed that the Committee should see the amendments? The Committee may want to find out whether the Department is happy to provide amendments, in which case you could agree the paragraph as amended, rather than subject to an unseen amendment.

2032. The Chairperson: OK.

2033. Ms Mapstone: That is fine. We received further advice on the matter this morning, and the Department is happy to come back to the Committee with those paragraphs amended as agreed.

2034. The Principal Clerk of Bills: In those circumstances, it is probably better to leave schedule 1 so that it can be agreed exactly as it will appear in the Bill, rather than at a time when we do not know the precise wording of the amendment.

2035. The Chairperson: Therefore, we will park schedule 1 in its entirety.

2036. Paragraphs 1 to 3 of schedule 2 relate to the creation and apportionment of property, rights and liabilities, etc. Do Julie or Irene wish to comment on paragraph 1?

2037. Ms Mapstone: No.

2038. The Chairperson: Are members content with paragraphs 1 to 3 of schedule 2?

Members indicated assent.

2039. The Chairperson: Paragraph 4 deals with employment contracts. Are members happy with paragraph 4(1)?

2040. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The only issue with paragraph 4 concerns Mr McNarry’s request that a letter be sent to the trade union. Unfortunately, Mr McNarry has left the room; however, do members wish to wait and consider the trade-union response before agreeing paragraph 4, or are they content to anticipate the likely response and proceed?

2041. Mr D Bradley: There is little point in writing to the trade unions unless we await their reply.

2042. The Chairperson: Should we revisit paragraph 4 in its entirety?

2043. Mr D Bradley: Yes, after we have received NIPSA’s response.

2044. The Chairperson: In light of the request to NIPSA, we will park paragraph 4 of schedule 2.

2045. Members will have a final opportunity to engage in a clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Bill on 24 January 2008, and we hope that the departmental officials will attend on that day.

2046. Can the departmental officials give us an assurance that the required amendments will be brought before the Committee in time for consideration at our 17 January 2008 meeting?

2047. Ms Mapstone: We will certainly endeavour to do that, although that will depend on the legislative draftsman who compiles the amendments. However, if requested, I am sure that he will manage to do so by that time. There are not too many amendments, and he should, therefore, be able to meet that deadline.

2048. The Chairperson: Members should refer to the outline plan for the Committee Stage of the Libraries Bill, which restates that 24 January 2008 will be the last opportunity to carry out a clause-by-clause reading.

Schedule 1 referred for further consideration.

Schedule 2 referred for further consideration.

2049. The Chairperson: Members should refer to the Minister’s response to the Committee’s request for information about DCAL’s bid for £980,000 in the December monitoring round in order to fund redundancy payments that may arise as a result of the establishment of the new library authority. The Minister is currently unable to give details of the number of people who might be involved or of the cost, but he has undertaken to inform the Committee as soon as that information becomes available. Are members content with the Minister’s response?

2050. Mr K Robinson: On a point of clarification: is the £600,000 tranche of redundancy payments to be met from moneys that are currently in the libraries budget? Everywhere we have gone in the past couple of months, librarians and people associated with libraries have told us about how tough things are. Could that £600,000 have been spent on books, materials and library improvements, or was it salted away specifically to meet redundancy payments?

2051. Mr Shannon: Does that mean that things are going to get tougher?

2052. Mr P Ramsey: I support Ken’s comments. In my constituency, the Western Education and Library Board has expressed ongoing concerns about the viability of maintaining a unique library service such as the current one. According to the board, literacy and numeracy services will be significantly reduced. We must have more information. Given those and future reductions, will the boards be able to deliver a good and efficient service to the wider public?

2053. The Chairperson: Members will be able to see the letter requesting —

2054. Mr K Robinson: The Minister’s letter states: “A first tranche of redundancies is being met from approximately £600,000 monies available from the libraries budget in this year.”

2055. That concerns me. Was that £600,000 set aside to buy extra books and materials throughout the current financial year? Is it now being pulled out of the pot to be held for redundancies that may not have been foreseen earlier?

2056. The second sum mentioned in the Minister’s letter is £980,000, which is additional money. I am not as concerned about that as I am about the £600,000 being scooped out of the existing libraries budget that might have been used in other ways.

2057. Mr McCausland: The Minister’s letter states that the Department asked for information on: “potential voluntary redundancies in this financial year”.

2058. Do we know whether those will actually be realised? This is the month of January. If it is not known whether someone is leaving the service now, there is only another 10 weeks to find out. We should find out how much of that will actually be realised.

2059. The Chairperson: We have a series of questions for the Minister and the Department, and we will take action accordingly.

2060. Mr P Ramsey: Will the Committee also write to the boards to seek an explanation of some points: for example, will there be a reduction of revenue because of redundancies? Ken has asked whether there will be reductions in the purchasing of materials and in the introduction of new programmes.

2061. Mr McCausland: If we are also writing to the boards, can we ask them — we could also get this information from the Department — what reduction there will be in the libraries budget of each board in percentage terms for the next financial year.

2062. Mr P Ramsey: The situation has changed since the boards made their presentation to the Committee, so we must find that out.

2063. The Chairperson: We will take that action.

2064. Mr Brolly: Is it worth considering whether the £600,000 is money that has been set aside for redundancies that the boards anticipate and of which they are already aware? The other sum of £980,000 may be for use in the event of redundancies that have not been anticipated. I do not know. As Ken says, we need to clarify that.

2065. Ms Mapstone: May I comment? The £600,000 is not new money: that is quite correct. It did not become available to the libraries budget until September. The reason for that is that it was part of a line of expenditure in the draft Budget that referred to a unitary charge element, which was put into the budget some time ago as an anticipation of public-private partnership or private finance initiative projects that would require a unitary charge payment every year. What is in the line is in excess of what libraries need to pay in unitary charges; however, the Department is not allowed, without Department of Finance and Personnel permission, to reallocate it.

2066. Mr K Robinson: So you are not dipping into the pot.

2067. Ms Mapstone: We are not. We received permission to reallocate that sum in September; therefore, although it was already there, it was not widely available to the boards. We are not, therefore, taking money from the boards. In September, we went out to the boards. We told them that we had this money available, asked how they wished to spend it and set out the criteria. Overwhelmingly, the boards requested that the money be spent on redundancy payments. The Department is complying with the boards’ views of where the money is needed. They chose redundancies so overwhelmingly that we put in the additional bid.

2068. Mr Brolly: That is helpful.

2069. Mr McCausland: While Julie is here, we can ask another question. Can we have an explanation, in simple, understandable form, of how the assessment of relative needs exercise (ARNE) actually works? Sometimes those issues are so complicated.

2070. Ms Mapstone: We can supply that. I cannot give it to you now, because I may not get the details right; but we can provide you with that.

2071. Mr McCausland: That would be useful. There has been a 30% reduction in the funding of the Belfast Education and Library Board over the past four to five years. I have never understood why that should have happened; one accepts that that is how the system works. I am interested to know why it has had that effect on funding. The population has not dropped by 30%.

2072. Ms Mapstone: I recall that financing per head for the Belfast Education and Library Board was significantly in excess of other areas and that there was a need for a readjustment.

2073. Mr McCausland: I am keen to know why the reduction was so substantial.

2074. Ms Mapstone: We can provide the details.

2075. The Chairperson: Members are clear on the questions that the Committee will put to the boards. I thank Noel, Julie and Irene for coming along this morning to assist us.

17 January 2008

Witnesses:

Ms Irene Armstrong Ms Julie Mapstone		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Noel Kelly		Departmental Solicitor’s Office

2076. The Chairperson: We move now to the Libraries Bill. I invite Mr Noel Kelly from the Departmental Solicitor’s Office, and Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) officials Julie Mapstone and Irene Armstrong to the table. I refer members to the correspondence between DCAL and the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA) on schedule 2 of the Libraries Bill.

2077. First, the Principal Clerk of Bills will set the context for us and remind us what stage we have reached.

2078. The Principal Clerk of Bills: It might be helpful for members to pause for breath and see what stage we have reached with the Libraries Bill. Over the last day or so, I read through the Bill thoroughly and the Committee’s work on it. All the clauses have been agreed, except clause 2, which is subject to a possible minor amendment by the Department. The Committee can deal with that this morning; it is in the letter from the Minister. Clause 2 is the only clause that the Committee must deal with today.

2079. There are 19 paragraphs in schedule 1, all of which have been agreed, except paragraph 2, which is subject to three possible departmental amendments. Those amendments are also in the Minister’s letter, and the Committee will deal with them this morning. We can ask the officials to explain them.

2080. Paragraph 6 of schedule 2 is slightly unusual because, according to the minutes of previous meetings, the Department and the Committee agreed that it should be omitted. That would involve a very minor amendment. The Committee requires the Department to say that the Minister will table an amendment to omit paragraph 6 of schedule 1.

2081. There are 10 paragraphs in schedule 2.

2082. All 10 have been agreed, except paragraphs 1 and 4. NIPSA had concerns about those paragraphs, and last week the Committee agreed to send a letter to NIPSA stating that the Committee was minded to accept the Bill in its present form but that it wanted to hear whether NIPSA had any concerns. The deadline for receiving a reply was not met; however, a letter from NIPSA was subsequently received.

2083. At its meeting on 6 December 2007 in Belfast Central Library, the Committee agreed that it would accept a reassurance from the Minister about the legal aspects in respect to schedule 2. That assurance has been given and is in a previous letter from the Minister that the Committee looked at last week. I am concerned that although the Committee received and accepted the Minister’s reassurance, it asked for further confirmation. The Committee might want to consider the letter that has subsequently been received from the Minister.

2084. There are three technical departmental amendments to schedule 3; they are in the Minister’s most recent letter. The Committee can ask for a short explanation on them.

2085. The Committee must sign off clause 2, finalise a couple of paragraphs in schedule 1, finalise two paragraphs in schedule 2, and finalise part of schedule 3. There is no reason that that should not be completed today.

2086. The Chairperson: That matches my understanding of what has happened to date, specifically the Minister’s assurance that he is content with the legal advice. I suggest that the Committee move to finalise its consideration of the Bill. Are members agreeable?

Members indicated assent.

Clause 2 (Duty of Authority to provide library service)

2087. The Chairperson: I refer members to the proposed amendments to clause 2(1); to schedule 1(2)(1)(b); and the amendments to schedule 3.

2088. I also refer members to the Minister’s response to schedule 1(2); and to schedule 2(1) and schedule 2(4). I suggest that we consider each item in order.

2089. I invite the Principal Clerk of Bills to go through each amendment.

2090. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The Minister’s letter sets out in simple terms the proposed amendments that he suggests the Committee accept. There are three groups of amendment, the first of which relates to clause 2. I understand that it is in response to a request by the Committee, but members may wish to ask the Department to set out the background to that amendment. If the Committee is happy with it, it is a matter of signing off the clause to be amended.

2091. Ms Julie Mapstone (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure): We discussed this matter with the Committee during previous evidence sessions. Members may recall that the phrase “comprehensive and efficient” appears in the existing libraries’ legislation in Northern Ireland and across the water. When we came to draft this legislation, we felt that that phrase did not deliver much in the way of meaning. Therefore, instead of the word “comprehensive”, we set out in clause 2(2)(a) what we consider to be the main task of the library service. We removed the term “efficient”, because we did not feel that efficiency should be legislated for but should be dealt with in the procedures and monitoring of public expenditure.

2092. However, I know that the Committee received evidence from several other people connected with the Library Service who asked for the phrase to be reinserted, and we are content to do that. It will not change the major policy but it will, perhaps, provide reassurance that there is no change, in effect, to the way that the Library Service should be delivered.

2093. Mr McCausland: I am happy for the phrase to be reinstated, and I agree entirely that it should be. On several occasions, I have said that the Library Service should stock books on, for example, the Ulster diaspora and the history of Northern Ireland. How will that be addressed? At the moment, much of that material cannot be accessed in Northern Ireland’s libraries and people end up having to go to somewhere such as the British Library. The Committee has discussed the lack of a national library in Northern Ireland. Can appropriate wording be included in the legislation to ensure that people can access such material in Northern Ireland?

2094. Ms Mapstone: Earlier exchanges of letters between the Minister and the Committee dealt with the nature and importance of collections. Clause 2(2)(a) sets out that the new library authority shall:

“secure that facilities are available for the borrowing of, or reference to, library materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children”.

2095. We cannot place a highly technical and specific demand on the public library service to make all research material available. However, we accept the importance of collections, and Belfast Central Library is among several holding important collections.

2096. Mr McCausland: I appreciate that point, but the wording of clause 2(2)(a) is probably not much different from that in the current legislation, and, at the moment, there is not sufficient access to the type of material that I have mentioned. How can that access be created? Any attempt to develop cultural contacts between Northern Ireland with the rest of the world must include an emphasis on tourism, particularly geological and cultural tourism, and so forth. Lack of access to such material creates a void in the cultural wealth of Northern Ireland.

2097. Ms Mapstone: Library professionals tell me that there is considerable access to existing collections. Inevitably, there will be some gaps because in the absence of a national library there cannot be a fully comprehensive collection.

2098. Mr McCausland: I appreciate that. Therefore, in the absence of a national library, how can we produce something — and I accept that it would not be of the same calibre — that would at least concentrate on books that are specific to this place?

2099. Ms Mapstone: That is a matter for the collections policy which will be developed by the library authority. Perhaps the Committee will recall the Minister’s letter about collections, which assured members that he would ask the library authority to develop a collections policy that will ensure that existing material is better advertised and more widely availability and will look at the development of collections.

2100. Mr McCausland: I understand and accept that the Minister has given us an assurance that he will do that. However, would it not be better to include something in the legislation? This Minister may keep to his assurance, but a future Minister may not have the same interest in the matter. People have the right to access that sort of information.

2101. Ms Mapstone: All I can do is refer the member to clause 2(2)(a). Without being specific, the clause states that facilities should be sufficient for “general requirements”, and that would apply to research facilities also. I would expect a collections policy to address any major gaps in collections as regards local historical or local cultural information.

2102. Mr McCausland: There is a parallel example regarding museums. Legislation relating to museums states that they should collect general material, which means that in museums you will find items from Egypt and all over the world. However, there is also a specific reference to — and I cannot remember the exact terminology used — the history of this region. If that can be the case for museums, there is no reason why it cannot be the case for libraries. It is not incumbent on museums to collect every remaining type of left-footed spade or other obscure items: the reference is general. Therefore, some reference to Northern Ireland, or the region — or whatever people want to call it — could be included in the Libraries Bill. I accept the Minister’s commitment, but something more could be done.

2103. The Chairperson: Are you referring to the way that museums are set up, Mr McCausland?

2104. Mr McCausland: Yes, there is a specific reference in the legislation governing museums.

2105. The Chairperson: Do other members have a view on that point?

2106. Mr K Robinson: I agree with Mr McCausland: it is very important to have collections that are specific to Northern Ireland given the possibilities of genealogical tourism, et cetera. The only helpful reference I can find is in Ms Knox’s presentation paper on the organisational structures of the library authority, which states:

“Providing access to local, Ulster and Irish history.”

2107. From experience, I know that it is sometimes extremely difficult to gather local material. As Mr McCausland said, sometimes one ends up going to London, Dublin or — in extreme cases — Armagh to get local material.

2108. Ms Mapstone: I also draw the Committee’s attention to the Department’s policy guidelines in the document ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’, which set out the importance of collections and their maintenance. Therefore, there is a departmental commitment to collections and to recognising the importance of material that is relevant to local historical research. That commitment, which is in the policy guidelines, will be monitored by the Department, as regards the operation of the Library Service, in order to make sure that it is adhered to. The legislation states that the material must be sufficient; and when that is taken together with the Minister’s letter to the Committee assuring it that he would seek to have a collections policy; we feel that those measures meet the issues that members have referred to.

2109. The Chairperson: Normally, the Committee would seek such an assurance. You are reminding us that we have already got that assurance, Ms Mapstone.

2110. Ms Mapstone: The Minister’s letter on the collections policy was one of the earlier letters — I do not have it with me and I cannot remember the date.

2111. Mr P Ramsey: Mr McCausland’s request is not unreasonable, and I do not understand the resistance from the departmental officials. It would only take a one-liner to ensure that access is provided to the materials that have been mentioned. If such wording were included in the Bill, then ensuring that such reference material would be accessible would be one of the Department’s priorities. I support the inclusion of such a measure in the legislation.

2112. The Chairperson: It strikes me that the Committee will need to revisit this clause.

2113. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The question is whether it would be appropriate for such a measure to go into primary legislation, a policy document, or regulations setting out the duties of libraries. That is a matter for the Department.

2114. Mr McCausland: Documents come and go: legislation is more permanent. The record indicates that policy documents in this area have not been adhered to.

2115. The Chairperson: As a Committee, we have to form an opinion on the matter.

2116. Mr Brolly: Could we have an example of how such a measure would be put into primary legislation? The matter seems to be more operational than legislative.

2117. The Chairperson: Mr Brolly, are you saying that you are content for the matter to continue to be covered by policy guidelines rather than legislation?

2118. Mr Brolly: Yes, unless the Committee wishes to include some form of monitoring principle that would ensure that the type of material that Mr McCausland, or any of us, wants to read is available. We could reach a point at which various interest groups, large and small, would be asking for this facility.

2119. Mr McCausland: If I want books about an obscure aspect of Japanese history, I cannot expect my local library, or even Belfast Central Library, to hold them. However, if one wants to access material on Northern Ireland, one should be able to get it in Northern Ireland. There is a huge volume of material — perhaps I should not have said “huge” as that will frighten the officials when they think of the cost. There is a significant volume of material that should be, and could be, made available, but it is not. People in both communities are being robbed of part of their cultural heritage.

2120. A simple, two-minute story will hammer the point home. The man most responsible for the founding of Los Angeles was born in Belfast and he was educated in a Christian Brothers School in Dublin before going to America. He is a significant individual. People have come to Belfast from Los Angeles, and I have discovered that no-one knows that he was originally from here despite an interesting biography, which I have at home, having been written about him. If I were to go into a library, I would never come across it. That is the sort of interesting material that I am talking about. Past records regarding libraries suggest that if such material is not nailed down, it will get pushed aside and be forgotten.

2121. Mr P Ramsey: You are right.

2122. Mr McCausland: Museums legislation contains a phrase that could be used as a guideline.

2123. Mr Brolly: I appreciate exactly what Mr McCausland says. However, we need an example of the wording that could be included in the legislation.

2124. Mr McCausland: The museums legislation contains a line — I cannot remember the exact terminology — that refers to Northern Ireland, or the region.

2125. Ms Mapstone: I want to propose some wording that has been brought forward by my colleague Mr Kelly. He suggests that a phrase that could be added to clause 2(2)(b) which would be along the lines of: “creating an adequate collection of reference material relevant to the cultural heritage of Northern Ireland.”

2126. Mr McCausland: Perfect.

2127. Ms Mapstone: I am not suggesting it as an amendment, because, of course, legislative counsel would have to do that. However, would that type of wording be appropriate?

2128. Mr McCausland: That is the sort of phrase that is needed. The wording that was used for museums was slightly wider. I believe that it employed the term, “Ulster”, because, pre-partition, material would have been relevant because someone was born in Donegal, or whatever; whereas, now, it has general relevance. However, apart from that minor comment, Mr Kelly’s wording is not a million miles away from what we need. He has earned his money today.

2129. Mr D Bradley: It is not unreasonable to expect the legislation to refer to material on Northern Ireland since it is directed at Northern Ireland. The current wording could be used as a template for any region therefore it is a good idea to make it more specific. In my view, the collections policy does not necessarily cover this issue. As I made you aware before, Chairman, part of the Irish and local studies collection in Armagh was removed to the cellar of the libraries headquarters. It is essential that such collections are made available to the public. Such a reference in the legislation might help to drive that policy.

2130. The Chairperson: I believe that we have reached an outcome.

2131. Mr Brolly: Sorry, Chairman. I missed what has just been agreed.

2132. The Chairperson: I invite Noel or Julie to restate the wording that was offered.

2133. Mr Noel Kelly (Departmental Solicitor’s Office): Generally, it is wrong to legislate in haste. However, a rough draft of the new sub-paragraph, which would become clause 2(2)(b)(vi), would require the authority to have regard to the desirability of creating an adequate collection of reference material relevant to the cultural heritage of all of the people of Northern Ireland.

2134. The Chairperson: We can sign off on that aspect of the legislation subject to confirmation of the wording of the amendment. We will discuss the exact wording next week. Is that fair?

2135. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Therefore, the clause will be amended in accordance with the amendment that is before the Committee today and which will be along the lines of the wording proposed by departmental officials. Although, ultimately, that will not be the wording that the Office of Legislative Counsel (OLC) produces, Mr Kelly could leave his wording with the Committee Clerk so that the Committee can see that the revised wording will be along those lines.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause subject to the Department’s amendment, put and agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 1 (The Northern Ireland Library Authority)

2136. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The next three suggested amendments are linked. The amendment to schedule 1, paragraph 2(1) will insert the new line “not more than 18 members”; the amendment to schedule 1, paragraph 2(2) relates to members being drawn from among representative councillors; and the third amendment, which is also to schedule 1, paragraph 2(2), will provide an opportunity for the Minister to bring forward a statutory rule to amend the figure of 18. Chairman, you might wish the officials to comment on that.

2137. Ms Mapstone: The Committee has received a letter from the Minister in which he committed himself to the principle of the amendments, and we have now tried to nail down the language. There are two aspects to schedule 1, paragraph 2: one is the number of people who will be on the board of the authority and the provision to amend that number by statutory rule; the second is the composition of the authority and the provision that a majority of members must be drawn from among elected district councillors. We have met the Committee’s wishes in respect of those points. The only thing is that, as you can see from the Minister’s letter, he has included the words “up to 19”. The reason for that is that we do not want to render the authority inoperable if, for any reason, it loses a member. However, the objective is that it should have 19 members.

2138. The Chairperson: That was your point, Mr Robinson.

2139. Mr K Robinson: Yes. My point seems to have been addressed. However, will the officials clarify whether, at some point, a cute Minister would not, for his own convenience, refer the number back to seven and so thwart the will of the Committee, which was that membership of the authority should have as wide a geographical and gender spread as possible. I realise that, initially, it may be difficult to get members with the experience and expertise required to get the authority off the ground. Can I be assured that, in the future, a cute Minister will not abuse that point?

2140. The Chairperson: Do you want some mechanism for nailing down that number?

2141. Mr K Robinson: Yes.

2142. The Chairperson: Can that be done? Is there a way of ensuring that the emphasis is on having 19 members and discouraging regression from that figure?

2143. Mr K Robinson: I suggest that an antiquated form of words, perhaps a spoken assurance, might be useful in this context.

2144. Mr Shannon: Could the number seven not be omitted from the Bill? The wording could be “the chairperson and eighteen members”.

2145. Mr K Robinson: I do not want to mess around too much with the wording of the Bill at the moment. It struck me on reading through the papers that after quite a struggle with officials the will of the Committee prevailed and we got it accepted that elected representatives should be on board to give some public accountability and geographical spread.

2146. We went for a higher number of members to try to achieve that. I do not want the will of the Committee to be thwarted at some point in the future. The term “a spoken assurance” means nothing to me, but perhaps someone can elaborate on it?

2147. The Principal Clerk of Bills: As the evidence being given to the Committee is on the record, assurances given will be recorded. That should be sufficient for the Committee.

2148. Mr Shannon: In the Minister’s reply dated 20 December he clearly stated that he is disposed to agree to a board of 19 members. That is clear-cut; why do we not just go with that?

2149. Mr K Robinson: If members are content, and if officials are giving us that assurance, then that is fine.

2150. Mr Shannon: If there is any hassle, we do not need any other assurance, or form of words. The Committee can simply quote the letter.

2151. Mr K Robinson: I know where Jim Shannon lives if this goes wrong.

2152. Mr Shannon: It will not go wrong. I am the eternal optimist.

2153. Mr McNarry: He is never in.

Question, That the Committee is content with the schedule subject to the Department’s amendment, put and agreed to.

Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 2 (Transfer Schemes)

2154. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The Committee needs to sign off schedule 2. The schedule was agreed apart from paragraphs 1 and 4 because there was doubt over what the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance’s (NIPSA) response would be. Since the Committee has concluded that it will not consider the issues raised by NIPSA, there will be no amendments to schedule 2 and the Committee is clear to sign it off.

Question, That the Committee is content with the schedule, put and agreed to.

Schedule 2 agreed to.

Schedule 3 (Amendments)

2155. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Schedule 3 is subject to three technical amendments. The Committee agreed in an earlier session that it was content for the Department to draft those amendments and bring them forward. Members now have the wording of the amendments in front of them, and they are simply changes to other pieces of legislation that will ensure that references to the board are included. Three pieces of legislation are mentioned. The Committee has already indicated that it is content with those technical amendments but it may wish to hear further comment from the officials.

2156. The Chairperson: Do officials wish to say anything further on the amendments?

2157. Ms Mapstone: The amendments simply deal with replacing references to the education and library boards with the library authority in other legislation.

2158. The Chairperson: Are members content?

Members indicated assent.

Schedule 4 (Repeals)

2159. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Schedule 4 has not been signed off. None of what has been done so far has brought about the need for any amendments to schedule 4. The Committee can now be reasonably satisfied that the schedule simply repeals old pieces of legislation which will no longer be relevant. The officials might want to comment on schedule 4, but it appears to me that the Committee is clear to sign it off.

2160. The Chairperson: Do the officials wish to comment further on schedule 4?

2161. Ms Mapstone: No.

Question, That the Committee is content with the schedule, put and agreed to.

Schedule 4 agreed to.

2162. The Committee Clerk: I have been passed a note suggesting a proposed amendment to clause 2(2)(b). The suggested wording is to add the following words:

“(vi) creating an adequate collection of reference material relevant to the cultural heritage of (all the people of Northern Ireland or the heritage of Northern Ireland).”

2163. The Principal Clerk of Bills: At some point, that amendment can be brought back to the Committee for members’ reassurance, but it is clear that the Committee is content with the general thrust of it.

2164. The Chairperson: That concludes the clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Libraries Bill. I am grateful to members and not least to departmental officials and the departmental solicitor’s office for their helpful contribution. Thank you.

17 January 2008

Witnesses:

Ms Irene Knox		proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority
Ms Julie Mapstone		Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure

2165. The Chairperson (Mr McElduff): I welcome Ms Irene Knox, chief executive designate of the new library authority. We are grateful for her attendance today. Members should refer to the presentation paper on the organisational structures of the library authority. Ms Julie Mapstone is also present to assist us this morning. I will allow 10 minutes for Ms Knox’s presentation. Members should then ask questions as quickly as possible, perhaps for another 10 minutes thereafter.

2166. Ms Irene Knox (proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority): Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the Committee about the proposals for the organisational structure of the library authority. Members will recall that when I spoke to the Committee some months ago, I mentioned that this would be one of the key pieces of work in which we would be engaged. I am glad to bring to the Committee a summary of the proposals that we wish to proceed with. I will highlight some of those key proposals, and I am happy to answer any questions that members may have.

2167. I emphasise that our proposals are still in draft form, and represent emerging thinking on the matter. A formal consultation process with staff and trade unions will have to be undertaken before a final structure is presented to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for approval. However, the fundamental principles that are included in the paper in relation to the proposed structure are sound. There may be some changes as a result of the consultation — around the margins, I hope — given that there has been a process of informal consultation with stakeholders as we have developed our thinking.

2168. The process has been an iterative one. We have involved chief librarians, assistant chief librarians, staff representatives and others with an interest in the matter. That engagement was very important from my perspective, because it helped me and my colleagues to arrive at a shared understanding of the nature of our business, and the best way of developing our services for the future.

2169. The key principles of our proposals are stated in the presentation paper. It is important that they are set out at the beginning, because they establish the framework for the structure and the way in which the organisation will function. Although the authority will be regionally led, it must be locally delivered. A regionally-led organisation can ensure that there is equality of opportunity and provision, and that good practice is shared across Northern Ireland. At the same time, however, there must be a means of ensuring that the service is responsive to local needs. Although the structure that we are developing will facilitate the development of partnerships at a strategic level, it is equally important that it provides for proactive and effective engagement with other providers of services in an area to ensure local relevance and a joined-up approach to meeting the needs of a particular community.

2170. We have followed the old edict that form follows function. We have to know what we are going to do before deciding how to do it. A starting-point for the process has been to seek clarity around the key business areas of the library authority. That process reinforced what was said by many members of this Committee over the past few months — that the library service has a key role to play in supporting learning in the broadest sense. That includes every age range, from birth to death.

2171. Libraries are the local gateway to knowledge. They offer a universal service in an environment where public provision is, increasingly, specialised. Our business consists of helping people to do things for themselves rather than our doing things for people. It is through the process of supporting learning that we also deliver other important priorities. I have identified those priorities in section four of our paper, entitled ‘Northern Ireland Library Authority: Proposed organisational structure.’

2172. Libraries assist with cultural and creative development, including access to our heritage. I was interested in the Committee’s earlier debate on that matter because it is a key aspect of the Library Service’s work. Libraries contribute to social inclusion, community development and economic regeneration. All of those aspects must be considered with regard to how we deliver our service in the future.

2173. Section 5 of the paper identifies the key activities that help to deliver those objectives. They are delivered by a range of means including through books and other materials; access to information, which is delivered, increasingly, online; promoting reading and reader development; providing a neutral space; and indeed providing access to local Ulster and Irish history.

2174. Traditionally, the public library service has tried to be all things to all people. By definition, as a public service, it must be available to all. However, in every community there are those who are likely to require more support and encouragement than others to take advantage of library services. In section 6 of our paper, we have identified target groups — such as children, young people, elderly people and those with disadvantages — that will require and receive additional support from the Library Service. Increasingly, libraries are being used by members of ethnic minority communities. Libraries provide a range of services for those communities.

2175. The proposed structure has been formulated to enable us to address the key business areas, activities and target groups. The Committee will see that we have proposed a small senior management team that comprises a chief executive and three directors. One director is responsible for service development. That person’s major focus will be on the key business areas that we have identified, for example, support for learning, cultural and creative development, access to information, social inclusion, and so forth.

2176. We have also identified a director who will be responsible for the business support services — the back-office services — required by any organisation, including finance, human resources (HR), estates management, facilities management, and so forth. It is critical that someone focuses on those areas so that the people whose jobs are about front line services can focus on the delivery of services rather than their time being taken up by HR issues, finance issues, etc.

2177. At the outset, I said that the Northern Ireland library authority would be regionally led and locally delivered. We intend to ensure that that happens in two ways. The third post, at the second-tier level, is that of a director of service delivery. That person would be, principally, responsible for service delivery in local communities and for the development of local partnerships and processes for local engagement.

2178. Together, those three posts — with that of the chief executive — form the senior management team. I have outlined how I see that local engagement moving forward. With regard to the director of service delivery’s being involved in local partnerships, we have shown that managers at third-tier level will be located in the areas that they serve, and they will be responsible for delivery of the service in that area. A key aspect of that job will be liaison and collaboration with other statutory, voluntary and community organisations in the area as a means of ensuring that the Library Service contributes, effectively, to locally produced plans to address needs. Eventually, when the community planning process is up and running, that person will be the library’s representative in that process. As a precursor to that process, we have suggested the establishment of local consultative groups to help to ensure that people and organisations in a local area participate in the planning of the Library Service.

2179. There are group managers in the lower levels of the organisation’s hierarchy — just as there are, currently — who would be based in the larger libraries and would be responsible for a number of libraries in the hinterland, including mobile services in that area. Every library will still have a branch manager. The structure is concerned with working on our key business areas, ensuring that those services are developed, and looking at the most effective way of engaging with the local community.

2180. In conclusion, there will be implications for senior staff in the existing services, which is why it was important to talk to them as we developed the process. As I said earlier, there will have to be a formal process of consultation with staff and trade unions on the proposals. We hope to issue a consultation document in the next couple of weeks, with responses due at the end of February/beginning of March. After that, structures will be finalised, and I am happy to come back to the Committee at that stage to let you know how things are progressing. Chairperson and Members, I thank you for your attention. If there are any questions, I will try to address them.

2181. Mr Shannon: Thank you for your presentation. In point 4.2 of your presentation, one of the proposed key business areas for a library authority is:

“Cultural and creative development, including access to information on our heritage.”

2182. You have got a flavour of that from my colleague Nelson and the whole Committee. How do you see that relationship developing? For example, do you see the relationship with local councils as part of cultural and creative development? It is important that there is some tie in with local councils prior to, or after, the review of public administration (RPA) whenever that may be.

2183. Ms Knox: Yes, I very much see a relationship developing with local councils. There are already very good partnerships in many areas between the Library Service and local councils on the development of culture and arts. This goes further: there are also opportunities to develop our relationships with, for example, the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI) on heritage issues. I listened with great interest to what Mr Ken Robinson said about genealogical tourism — that is a huge area, in which the Library Service can work with PRONI, the Linen Hall Library, the Cardinal Tomás Ó’Fiaich Memorial Library and Archive, and all sorts of others organisations. That type of partnership can encourage and provide resources to support genealogical tourism. Local engagement based on partnerships developed at a strategic level would be a key issue for us.

2184. Mr Shannon: I welcome that. In point 5 of your presentation, ‘Key Activities’, there is mention of:

“up-to-date stock tailored to local need”.

2185. How do you see a relationship being built with your customers in regard to what they want? Is there flexibility in what you can order for your customers?

2186. Ms Knox: There are two aspects to that; the library authority will have to have a stock policy, which will identify in general terms what the Library Service should provide. That will cover a range of, for example, fiction and non-fiction items, and largely popular items because we want to ensure that any new book which has received a lot of publicity is in the Library Service for people to borrow immediately.

2187. However, we also have to look at needs in local areas, which brings us back to the situation regarding local studies. From my experience of working in libraries, I know that many people are very keen on material related to their immediate local area, so we want to make sure that we address that need. In one of the charts in the papers, Members will see that I have identified not only group managers but someone with responsibility for local studies in every area, and that person will have a key responsibility for ensuring that those local needs are addressed.

2188. Library users will always have the opportunity to request, buy, or even borrow material from other sources. The key advantage of having a regional authority is that we have a facility across Northern Ireland to borrow material from other libraries in the area, and a facility to develop even better partnerships with places such as the Linen Hall Library, the Armagh Robinson Library, the Cardinal Tomás Ó’Fiaich Memorial Library and Archive, and all the other facilities that exist.

2189. The Chairperson: We need to move swiftly Jim because there are at least five other questions.

2190. Mr Shannon: I have a question on the management levels. Are there too many levels of management, when one considers that there is to be a chief executive, senior management, area mangers, an operations manager and a group manager? In addition, I notice that the mobile libraries are listed at the bottom of the organisational chart. I do not want the mobile libraries to be viewed as an afterthought.

2191. Ms Knox: As far as I am concerned, mobile libraries are not an afterthought. Particularly in rural communities, they provide a key resource, and I equate them with branch libraries in the service that they provide.

2192. I will deal with your question on the layers of management. Apart from the chief executive and the three second-tier officers, everyone else would be out working on the ground. It must be remembered that there are 111 libraries, and we must ensure that those libraries operate collectively in areas. Area managers could be responsible for over 30 libraries, and they must ensure that the libraries in their area function properly, which they will do through the operations manager, and that local contacts are made, whether that is with local councils, health services or voluntary organisations. I want to ensure that we have people in libraries who can deliver services to the public as they come in. We must have people with sufficient seniority who can make those partnerships, at local level, with other organisations. The structure must be evolutionary; we must keep it under consideration as the service develops and we may have to consider a flatter structure at some stage. All of those management layers, and more, exist in the Library Service. I am trying to streamline it, while retaining the accountability in particular areas. I am happy to consider that as we move forward.

2193. Mr McCausland: I am happy with the general thrust of the aims of the service on the ground. The paper on the proposed organisational structure of the library authority states that:

“Each group manager will be responsible for the operation of a major library, the branches in the surrounding hinterland and any associated mobile library services.”

2194. However, the organisational chart shows only three group managers. Is that due to a restriction of space?

2195. Ms Knox: The aim of the chart is simply to try to show a framework. I would need at least an A3-sized page to do that properly. That chart shows the general approach.

2196. Mr McCausland: Presumably, the cost of running the 111 branch libraries and mobile libraries under the new regime will be the same as under the current regime. However, we have been told that the creation of the library authority will result in savings. Any savings will be at the higher level of management, although the salary scales are yet to be decided. Leaving aside the mobile libraries, which will not change, is there any indication of the current costs, across the five boards, of the managerial and specialist posts of the upper management structure, and what those would be under the new library authority?

2197. The Chairperson: Before you answer that question, I will allow Pat to ask his question.

2198. Mr P Ramsey: From listening to your presentation and reading your material, I have great hope for increased services and the centres of excellence for education. That was referred to under the headings ‘Key Business Areas’, ‘Key Activities’ and ‘Target Groups’. Taking that as read, the education boards have written to me and said that this year, their budget will include expenditure for the single library authority. One of those letters states that, as a result of that:

“This will make it impossible to maintain current level of services, opening hours and expenditure on new books across Northern Ireland.”

2199. Next year, the boards will have to run the libraries, across all of the library services, on £500,000. That complements Nelson’s point that the profession appears to be in crisis now. What will it face next year, and what will be the cost of implementing the new organisational structure?

2200. Throughout the Committee’s discussions on the Library Service, we have talked about maintaining and increasing the level of services including literacy and numeracy, access for disabled people and the full range of facilities. How do we address the present crisis, and is it going to be worse next year?

2201. Ms Knox: Regarding Mr McCausland’s question, the only costings that we have been able to produce with any kind of certainty are those that are in the paper that has been made available to members. Those costings refer to proposals for the first, second and third tiers of management in the new library authority. When compared to the equivalent levels across the five education and library boards, it shows that savings will be made at that level.

2202. At the fourth, fifth and sixth tier levels, the current structures across the five education and library boards are very different, and it is proving difficult to compare existing costs and future costs at that level of management. Work on that is ongoing, and in the next month or so I hope that we will be in a position to have more accurate information on those costs. I will be happy to provide the Committee with that information as soon as we have it.

2203. The boards have been given indicative budgets by the Department. The Department was also successful in a bid for additional money for voluntary redundancies this year. Boards are putting together business cases and are looking at voluntary redundancies. My understanding is that most of the voluntary redundancies will be at the middle management level. Therefore, we want to ascertain what implications that will have for the future costs of the new library authority. Hopefully, that addresses some of the issues that members have raised.

2204. Mr McCausland: It would be good to have the breakdown of the numbers at all levels and the associated costs.

2205. Ms Knox: I am more than happy to share that information with the Committee as soon as I have it.

2206. To pick up on Mr Ramsey’s point, my understanding — and Ms Mapstone may be able to clarify this — is that the Department has secured additional money this year for the implementation costs of the new library authority. Therefore, the money that the boards have received is money that they would have received anyway, regardless of whether the library authority was going to be set up or not.

2207. There is no doubt that all of the boards are having difficulties with their indicative budgets for 2008-09; money is tight. Early indications were that that would be the case. I have been talking to chief librarians and assistant chief librarians. When the additional money that is being made available for voluntary redundancies is taken into account, my understanding is that all boards — with one exception — will be able to manage their services.

2208. Our ability to develop services will be determined by how much money comes into libraries now and in the future. Through the structures that we put in place, I am trying to achieve efficiencies on the management side, and my paper sets out the cost reductions that I will be seeking to achieve at senior management level in the new authority. That point has to be considered.

2209. We must put as much money as possible into front-line services, stock, and those employees who interact with the public. However, a fine balance is required between ensuring there is accountability and good governance and ensuring that the services are provided.

2210. I cannot say that we have enough money. I will never say that we have enough money; I will always argue for additional funds for the Library Service to enable us to develop the service for the future. I believe that we are moving forward in the best way to ensure that we have a quality library service in Northern Ireland.

2211. Mr P Ramsey: It is important to have details of the full expenditure that will be required to deliver the new organisational structure compared with that which is needed to fund the present system. Given the letter that I have in front of me, which I will make available, I am not happy with the responses that have been given. I will certainly be revisiting this issue.

2212. Lord Browne: It is stated in the submission that:

“It would be inappropriate, ineffective and inefficient to … import a structure wholesale from another Authority.”

2213. What other authorities have been benchmarked with? Which of them best mirrors our situation?

2214. It was said that the development of strategic partnerships with other providers will be critical to the delivery of an efficient service. How will it be ensured that front-line staff will engage with the target groups that have been identified? It was also said that area managers would be responsible for up to 30 libraries. Belfast City Council originally employed local managers in the city’s leisure centres, but under compulsory competitive tendering it replaced them with area managers, which proved totally ineffective because they could not be contacted. The council reverted back to employing local managers because they were able to identify the needs of the local community and had full responsibility for the centres in which they were employed. Are area managers the most effective way to deliver the Library Service?

2215. Mr D Bradley: Under the new library authority, will there be a new engagement with schools and education in general? Will it be able to bring a fresh approach, or will we simply get more of the same?

2216. Ms Knox: As regards authorities that mirror ours; the approach we are taking is unique in the UK, and it is being looked on with envy by many people across the UK. I have spoken to several chief librarians and local authority chief executives in England, as well as the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals and the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, to see what is happening regarding the development of structures, and what we can learn from. I do not believe in reinventing the wheel: if someone has a structure that works, we will use it.

2217. I am not aware of any other authority that has exactly the same structure. However, other authorities are talking about employing a similar approach to ours, focusing on a small senior management team and trying to get as many people as possible out working in local areas. That is the approach that we have adopted. We have also worked with Kentwood Associates, who are a specialist library consultancy firm. They have over 40 years experience between them in this type of work, not only in the UK, but in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and they have told me that our approach is one that can be looked at in the future.

2218. In considering strategic partnerships and how front-line staff will engage with target groups, it will be important to have area managers and group managers. Every library has its own branch manager, and will continue to do so, because they know their communities very well. I have spent time over the past couple of months visiting libraries. Branch managers, and the equivalent of group managers — they are given different titles by different boards, such as community librarians or group managers — are doing a huge amount of work at local level to identify target groups, service users and ensure services provided are relevant to local needs.

2219. One particular library that I visited serves an area that has a large immigrant population. The staff of that library have engaged with local further education colleges to work with the immigrant population in English language classes. One of the first organisations they engaged with was from the police, because it was recognised that the immigrant population needed to learn English in order to understand the highway code and read road signs. The staff talked to the immigrant people and to community representatives to determine their needs. That work must continue and must be developed. That is why we have talked about local consultative groups that can engage with people in the local area around a library, determine the needs of the area and find out how to address them.

2220. I take the point about leisure services in Belfast, but we are still talking about having branch managers. Every library will have its own branch manager, and he or she will be the initial point of contact. As regards engagement with schools and education, the Library Service has worked positively with schools in the past. I still believe that support for learning in the 0- to 19-year-old target group is critical.

2221. The schools library service and the children’s library service have worked extremely well and collaborated closely when they were both parts of the same service. At the moment, the issue is where the schools library service will sit in the future. The current proposal is that it should sit within the education and skills authority. I have discussed the matter with Gavin Boyd from the ESA, and we are seeking to find ways of preserving a successful partnership in the delivery of services to schools. We are currently working on proposals as to how that might be done.

2222. The key issue for staff is that collaboration should continue at the highest levels and that the public library service should remain involved with the education and skills authority in its literacy programmes. In that way, we will know what is delivered in schools, and we can complement that work in the public library service.

2223. Mr D Bradley: Will that link be formalised in any way?

2224. Ms Knox: We will have a service level agreement.

2225. The Chairperson: Can we move swiftly on? I must ask Francie and Ken to be brief. They normally are.

2226. Mr Brolly: I will give a wee quotation, first, knowing that you are a student of the classics. There is the famous translation of the Roman historian’s description of the old territory of Gaul, where he says that it was “quartered into three halves”. That was prompted by the question that I was going to ask.

2227. The Chairperson: You have introduced a non sequitur there.

2228. Mr Brolly: I think that “festina lente” is the phrase that you are after.

2229. You were talking about quartering, dividing the North into four regions. What will the four regions be?

2230. Ms Knox: The detail of that has yet to be worked out. We have to do that with the individuals when we get to that stage. We need to ensure, as we move forward, that there is some sort of coterminosity with other services in the area. Geographically, —

2231. Mr Brolly: It will be divided into four regions?

2232. Ms Knox: We are trying to achieve efficiencies. If we wanted coterminosity with health services we could increase the number of regions to five; if we wanted coterminosity with the new council areas, we would have to wait and see. We have said at this stage that there will be four regions because we can do that effectively and efficiently. Each of those regions might not necessarily be a council area or a group of six or seven councils. We will have to look at how that works out.

2233. Mr Brolly: Will you be basing it on the number of libraries in each area, or on an actual geographic area?

2234. Ms Knox: We will try to achieve some coterminosity, so that libraries situated in communities that naturally sit together will be contained within the one area. We will not merely draw a line on a map; we will look at how we can put communities together.

2235. Mr K Robinson: Thank you very much, Irene, for giving answers to questions. That is a unique experience for me. I sit on another Committee, at which, although we ask questions, we never get answers.

2236. I have looked at the structure that you have proposed. There is a clarity to it; I will not say that I agree with it totally. You have answered my question vis-à-vis minorities and how we would deal with their needs. I suggest to you, in passing, that many of the locals need to learn how to read road signs as well.

2237. There is a problem here. With any structural change, there is a tendency for folk to clear out the cupboards and get rid of what they term as “rubbish”. Down the years, it has been my experience that, quite often, extremely valuable archive material goes to the shredder. I ask you to make a point of ensuring, at an early stage, that a very fine process is engaged in to prevent any unique material that is held at the different branch libraries or central libraries from ending up in the bin or on a skip.

2238. A children’s librarian was mentioned as part of the structure of the new authority. I recall Liz Weir, who was employed by the Belfast Education and Library Board. She went round schools to tell stories to the children, and the schools visited their local libraries. She had a tremendous rapport with the children, particularly with the younger ones, and they discovered the joy of reading. I want to see that reinforced and retained. Perhaps it could be built into the service level agreement with the wonderful new body, the ESA —which we will deal with in another place — so that there is a proper structure and an enjoyment in learning and the library system is part of that.

2239. My council holds some extremely valuable archive material, and I do not think that it is valued. If the RPA is rolling along in the background as well, perhaps it is time to talk to the councils about material that they hold so that it could be archived and centralised somewhere to prevent its loss.

2240. Ms Knox: I welcome your suggestion. Thank you very much.

2241. The Chairperson: That concludes the session on the structure of the library authority. I thank Irene and Julie for coming along to help the Committee with that.

24 January 2008

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:
Mr Dominic Bradley (Acting Chairperson)
Mr Francie Brolly
Lord Browne
Mr Kieran McCarthy
Mr Nelson McCausland
Mr Ken Robinson
Mr Jim Shannon

2242. The Acting Chairperson (Mr D Bradley): A letter from the Minister has been received, headed ‘Clause 2: duty to provide library services’, and the Principal Clerk of Bills will advise us on that.

2243. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Members may recall that last week we signed off on the Libraries Bill. However, two points were outstanding. One of the points was minor, and the other was more substantive. The substantive point is covered in the Minister’s letter, and it relates to the Committee’s suggestion — Mr McCausland raised the matter — that there should be a statutory duty to maintain a collection of library materials. That amendment is dealt with in the attachment to the Minister’s letter.

2244. The Office of the Legislative Counsel proposes that the following words should be inserted at the end of clause 2(2)(b)(iii):

“maintaining a collection of library materials relevant to the cultural heritage of Northern Ireland;”

2245. The Acting Chairperson: Is that the form of words that Noel Kelly used last week?

2246. The Principal Clerk of Bills: He may not have used those exact words. Although Noel is a lawyer, the representatives from the Office of the Legislative Counsel are the real experts, and those are their proposed words. It is a matter of simply confirming that everyone is content with the suggested amendment.

2247. The Acting Chairperson: Are members content with the amendment as suggested?

Members indicated assent.

2248. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The Committee earlier indicated that it preferred the removal of paragraph 6 of schedule 1, concerning secondments, and the suggested amendment is precisely what the Committee requested. Therefore, if the Committee is content, its work on the Libraries Bill is completed. The Committee Clerk will compile a final report for members’ consideration and forwarding to the Assembly.

2249. The amendments must now be formally adopted. That is done at Consideration Stage in plenary session. Members will consider all the amendments and then the Speaker will call for a vote on each of them. Obviously, the Committee wants those amendments to be agreed, as we have signed them off, and the Department and the Minister are content with them.

2250. Everyone wants the amendments to be signed off. The Speaker will ask that the amendment be made. Hopefully, we will get an “Aye”, and the Speaker will call for the vote on the clause, as amended.

2251. I suggest that we break the process into four parts, and take the first two amendments together. They are at lines 1 and 16 of clause 2 and relate to the duty to be placed on the library authority. I suggest that there will be a short debate, following which the Speaker will call the amendments consecutively.

2252. There is a further batch of amendments: at schedule 1, page 8, leave out line 15 and insert

‘(b) not more than 18 other members,’;

at schedule 1, page 8, line 18, after ‘secure’ insert

‘(a) that at any time a majority of members are councillors (within the meaning of the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972; and (b)’;

at schedule 1, page 8, line 19, at end insert

‘(3) The Department may by order subject to negative resolution amend sub-paragraph (1)(b) by substituting for the number specified there such other number as may be specified in the order.’

That brings in the ability to make a statutory rule to amend the number of people on the authority. Those all relate to membership, and I suggest that they be debated as a single group.

2253. The Acting Chairperson: The next amendment also refers to membership.

2254. The Principal Clerk of Bills: No, the next amendment is for the removal of schedule 1(6), which relates to secondment to the library authority. It should be dealt with on its own. That paragraph will disappear. The first three references to schedule 1 will be taken together, because they relate to secondments to the library authority. There will be a short debate on that, and it will be treated as one amendment.

2255. Finally, the technical amendments relate to making minor alterations to other pieces of legislation. If the Committee is content, I suggest that the amendments be called in four groups. There will be four short debates during the Consideration Stage, and, at the end of each debate, the Speaker will deal with the amendments that have been discussed. If members are content with those groupings, I will recommend them.

2256. The Acting Chairperson: Are members content with that grouping?

Members indicated assent.

2257. The Principal Clerk of Bills: Chairman, your work on the Libraries Bill is finished. You have merely to sign off the report, which the Clerk will bring to you in the next week or so, and the next event will be the Bill’s Consideration Stage.

2258. Mr Shannon: How long will it take between the Consideration Stage and the Bill leaving the Assembly? Will it be three months?

2259. The Principal Clerk of Bills: The Department will have to take the amendments to the Executive Committee to have them signed off. That might take two to three weeks. From the moment that our report goes to the Business Office until the point at which the Minister will be in a position to call the Consideration Stage could take three weeks, possibly one month.

2260. Following the Consideration Stage, things will move quickly to the Further Consideration Stage, at which there might be some need for minor tweaks to the Bill. The Office of the Legislative Counsel might want to tweak the wording of the Bill to make it work better. Many Further Consideration Stages do not have any amendments and take only a few seconds. Following that is the Final Stage — the last opportunity to debate the Bill before the Assembly votes to pass it. At the end of the Final Stage the Speaker asks that the Bill passes its Final Stage. With an “Aye” vote, the Bill is out of the Assembly and it goes for Royal Assent.

2261. The Acting Chairperson: Are members agreed that the Clerk should prepare the report on the Committee Stage and lodge that with the Business Office?

2262. The Principal Clerk of Bills: It has to be signed off.

2263. The Acting Chairperson: We shall sign it off and it will be lodged with the Business Office. I thank Committee members for their scrutiny of the Libraries Bill.

Appendix 3

Written Submissions

Chartered Institute of Library
and Information Professionals Ireland

Preface

The Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals Ireland

My role is as Executive Officer of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals Ireland. I am also its past chair. The Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals Ireland is the leading professional membership organisation for librarians, information specialists and knowledge managers. It has a duty to promote high quality library and information services and to advise government, employers and other bodies on all aspects of library and information provision. As a professional body, cilip Ireland represents the needs of its membership through the ongoing work of the local branch committee. The structure and its activities can be considered from four main aspects: Communication; Education and Training; Policy Making and Links and Partnerships. This Libraries Bill is to be welcomed, as is the opportunity to comment on its content.

Response

The fundamental public library service must remain free at the point of delivery, and the sole purpose of any legislation to govern that library service must be to protect it. Core services such as membership, book borrowing and reference duties must remain a free service. The public library service, as administered by the new library authority, must advocate equality in terms of provision, and that provision must promote and provide, quality stock, sufficient in number and range, to cope with the ever changing information, recreational and cultural needs of its users. In many ways, point 2-(a) of the Libraries Bill is absolutely crucial to help sustain and encourage further use of our public libraries. The stock has to be prioritised and this means resourcing each public library to a proper standard equitable to that in England, Scotland and Wales, and adhering to accepted library standards which ensure an efficient and effective library service for all. On reading the Libraries Bill, it has not been made sufficiently clear that the funding of the public library service will be able to prioritise its frontline services in the transition from the education and library boards and establishment of the new authority. Funding implications, and indeed further funding, needs to be worded in a clearer manner. The new library authority has a distinct advantage being ideally placed to deliver a quality library service which promotes social inclusion, equality of opportunity and equitable service provision. This approach has already been facilitated through harmonisation of each library service within the education and library boards. Such initiatives as the single I.T. issue system enabling each library member to access resources anywhere in our Northern Ireland library network, must be built upon and existing and further partnerships established to ensure that the best use is made of our public library service. As a professional body, the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals Ireland certainly welcomes, and indeed advocates, such opportunities of partnership working. It is also absolutely essential that the success of the new library authority, and thus the success and future of the public library as an institution, is effectively marketed. On reading the Bill, 15– 2 is to be welcomed. Library inspections will help to ensure that quality standards in service delivery are maintained and improved, thus promoting a much-needed culture of continuous quality improvement and accountability within the public library service.

Concerns

Is £0.67 million sufficient for start up costs and what about further funding?
Will frontline services be jeopardised as a result of start up and transitional phases associated with the creation of the new library authority?
Point 4-8 requires a clearer explanation, or more precise wording, as to what specifically constitutes “commercial activity”
The absence of the wording “efficient and effective” library service; “comprehensive and efficient” still remains a concern
There needs to be a clearer statement that core library services will be free as ambiguity exists in the Libraries Bill as it stands

Conclusion

It is an extremely exciting time for the public library service in Northern Ireland, but also a time of uncertainty as this transitional period commences. The new library authority needs to represent the interests of all employed in the existing library service, and manage the transitional phase and establishment of the “new” public library service in a professional manner. If managed professionally, there is no doubt that confidence in the new authority will be established. This means fulfilling its extremely important advocacy role and establishing that same level of commitment and support enjoyed by our colleagues in Wales with its relationship, both professionally and financially, with the Welsh Assembly and particularly CUMAL, and our colleagues in the south of Ireland with its public library service receiving full support from its councillors. As Executive Officer of cilip Ireland, I certainly welcome the opportunity to strengthen a partnership which will fund research and pilot projects to continuously raise the standard of literacy in our local communities and our schools and, in doing so, raise the much needed image of the public library service in Northern Ireland.

Contact details: elga.logue@btinternet.com
Professionally Qualified and Chartered Librarian

Library and Information Services Council (Northern Ireland)

Written evidence to the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee on the Libraries Bill

Summary

This document has been drawn up by the Library and Information Services Council, the umbrella and advisory body for library and information services in Northern Ireland.

The document welcomes the Libraries Bill’s purpose to establish a single library authority for Northern Ireland and comments on specific provisions within the Bill to do with the duty of the authority to provide service, charges for services and the size of the authority.

It also comments on the financial effects of the Bill set out in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum and the implications for continued partnership between libraries and education post implementation.

Introduction

1. The Library and Information Services Council (LISC), which is funded mainly by the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure, is the only body in Northern Ireland which brings together all library and information services. It has around 60 member organisations made up of a wide range of providers; public libraries, museums and archives, libraries in educational institutions from schools through to higher education, libraries in government departments, and special libraries in the commercial and voluntary sector.

2. LISC’s Mission Statement is as follows:

To maintain and enhance the standard of library and information services in Northern Ireland by:

Providing advice and consultation to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and other government departments.
Providing a representative voice for the library and information sector.
Acting as a catalyst for progress and development in all areas of library and information provision.

LISC is particularly well placed to comment on the Libraries Bill because of its representative spread within the sector and because of its specified role.

INITIAL COMMENTS

3. LISC looks forward to the establishment of the single library authority and welcomes many aspects of the Libraries Bill, in particular its broad enabling approach which will afford valuable flexibility in the development of services.

LISC views the single authority model as offering a number of distinct advantages.

a) It will provide the most suitable context for further progress in the development of seamless and equitable services already initiated by the five Education and Library Boards through, for example, the single IT network for libraries, the single library membership card usable throughout Northern Ireland and the facility to borrow or return items at any library.

b) It will enable more effective partnership working, in particular at regional and strategic level, ensuring libraries can continue to develop their role as community hubs for information on a host of services from a wide range of providers. LISC has been a driving force behind a number of important partnership initiatives. The Northern Ireland Publications Resource, a project ongoing since 2000 which aims to identify, collect, preserve and make available electronically records of all books and periodicals published in Northern Ireland, brings together the Belfast Education and Library Board and the Linen Hall Library as lead partners together with the other public library services and publishers under LISC’s auspices. INSPIRE, a scheme to widen access to specialist resources, already operates between libraries from a range of sectors in the North West and LISC is leading a move to extend the scheme throughout Northern Ireland. LISC looks forward to working with a single public library authority to encourage further partnerships aimed at service improvement.

c) The single authority will provide coherent management for integrated strategic and capital development plans based on the policy document, “Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries” and tailored to meet local and regional needs.

d) The economies of scale offered should ensure the development of specialist services and expertise not currently within the scope of five separate education and library boards. This could enable more effective marketing of the service, a digitisation programme to widen access to the many unique resources of historical and cultural importance held throughout the region and afford greater capacity to attract significant levels of external funding.

4. It will nevertheless be important for the new authority to establish links with the local councils, in whatever model they emerge, and in particular to engage with the community planning process to ensure that local delivery of the library service remains in step with local needs and developments.

Specific Comments on the Libraries Bill

5. LISC is pleased to take this opportunity to comment on a number of specific issues raised by the Libraries Bill, particularly in relation to the duty of the authority to provide services, charges for services and the proposed size of the authority.

6. LISC is concerned that the wording relating to the Duty of Authority to provide library service at Clause 2 remains weak. In our response to the draft legislation we acknowledged the difficulties of interpretation surrounding the words “comprehensive and efficient” which are present in the existing legislation but we believe the proposed wording still needs to be strengthened to ensure the service works towards acceptable standards. In particular the phrase “have regard to the desirability of” does not convey a clear obligation to deliver on the issues listed at 2.(2)(b)(i)-(v).

7. Although LISC welcomes the strengthened commitment to the retention of core services free at the point of delivery expressed at Clause 6 it notes that the Department would retain the power to approve the inclusion of core services in a scheme of charges. While we acknowledge that this is not government policy and would go against the thrust of the “Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries” document LISC would nevertheless be more content if a clearer form of wording could be found which would rule out the possibility of charging for core services such as library membership and the provision of information and reading materials in the format most suited to the user’s needs.

8. LISC also welcomes the increase in the maximum size of the authority from 13 in the draft legislation to 15 members but continues to have concerns that an authority of this size would be able to deal with the workload and reflect the range of expertise required and the geographical spread and rural/urban mix of the Northern Ireland population.

Specific Comments on the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

9. LISC welcomes the clear linkage made at Paragraph 4 to the policy context and objectives of “Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries”.

10. LISC notes with concern the comments at Paragraphs 13 and 14 on the financial effects of the bill. We would question whether the estimate of £0.67 million for current year start-up costs is sufficient and question also why no mention is made of further funding for the transitional costs that will inevitably be associated with transforming five organisations into one in the next financial year. The savings declared for 2009-10 and 2010-11 are a cause for alarm given the fact that the vast majority of library service costs are directed to frontline services and that the government has repeatedly stated its commitment to maintaining and enhancing the standard of these across all public services.

11. LISC welcomes the recognition of the need to ensure adequate funding for corporate and support services currently supplied to the library service within the general administration of the Education and Library Boards from Department of Education funding. We note that DCAL has now submitted a bid for the funding to cover these essential costs. LISC acknowledges the difficulty of extracting accurate figures for these costs as they were not previously accounted for separately in ELB budgets; we hope that this bid has factored in all the benefits that have accrued to the library service from its position within the boards. We also stress the necessity for all these central administration and governance costs to be funded in full so that no resources are siphoned away from frontline services and proper transparency is ensured.

The Role of Libraries in Formal Education

12. One of the most significant immediate effects of the implementation of the library legislation and the establishment of the Education and Skills Authority will be the breakage of the strategic link between libraries and formal education and the consequent transfer of the schools library service to the ESA. The long-established close collaboration between education and libraries must continue to be fostered in the context of the new administrative arrangements to ensure the ongoing and effective promotion of literacy, information literacy and a love of reading among children whether in school, their local community library or at home. LISC has taken a particular interest in services to children, publishing the DE sponsored School Library Guidelines in 2003 and following this up recently with the development of quality frameworks for library services to schools and to children in the community. We hope to maintain this input through links with the new library authority, the ESA and the Education and Training Inspectorate.

Conclusion

13. The implementation of the Libraries Bill and the establishment of the new library authority represent the greatest opportunity in a generation to re-invigorate the public library service and enable it to play its full part in raising levels of literacy, cultural awareness and participation and in contributing to informed and confident individuals and communities. LISC looks forward to working with the authority, the Department, the Minister and the CAL Committee to ensure these expectations are realised.

LISC (NI), July 2007

Southern Education and Library Board

SELB Logo (Black).ai

SELB Library Headquarters
1 Markethill Road
Armagh
BT60 1NR
Tel: 028 3752 535
Fax 028 3752 6879

11th July 2007

Ms L Gregg
Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure
Room 424 Parliament Buildings
Stormont
BELFAST
BT4 3XX

Dear Ms Gregg

Re: Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure – Libraries Bill

Please find enclosed the submission of written evidence from the Southern Education and Libraries Board in relation to the Libraries Bill.

The Board appreciates that the Bill endeavours to achieve a balance between delineating the statutory provision of services and being sufficiently broad to enable flexibility for the future Single Library Authority to take different approaches over time to suit changing circumstances.

Because of the holiday period and the short time allowed for responses, the Board and Library Committee have not yet endorsed this response which reflects the views of Board officers and their knowledge of the concerns of Board members.

The specific points which the Board wishes to make are detailed overleaf.

Yours sincerely
Kathleen Ryan

Kathleen Ryan Sig.ai

Chief Librarian

028 37520 702
Kathleen.Ryan@NI-Libraries.NET

Enc

1 Introduction

The Southern Education and Library Board (SELB) has been responsible for Public Library Services in its area since the inception of the Education and Library Boards in 1973. The Board recognises that this proposed legislation is of major importance to the future of the public library service in Northern Ireland and has the potential to impact on the lives of individuals and communities not only now but also those of future generations.

2 A single library service for Northern Ireland

2.1 The SELB recognises the potential benefits of a single library authority with a higher profile and a strong focus on the delivery of high quality library services in line with the policy set out in Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries.

2.2 This will allow the further development of the seamless and equitable service which the five Education and Library Boards have sought to develop in recent years through, for example, the single IT network for libraries (which is the envy of many library authorities across the rest of the United Kingdom), the single membership card for the whole of Northern Ireland and the ‘borrow anywhere, return anywhere’ policy. A single authority will have enhanced ability to employ specialist and expert staff which cannot currently be afforded by individual library services and who would impact significantly on the quality and reach of library services and increase levels of library use.

2.3 Library services work closely with a variety of partners in the local community and the establishment of a single library authority will facilitate a greater level of partnership working at a strategic level as organisations with a Northern Ireland-wide remit will need to engage with just one organisation rather than five. More locally based organisations will, of course, continue to work with local libraries.

3 Libraries Bill

The Board’s detailed response to the legislation is given below; inserted in italics at the appropriate point.

3.1 6. - (1) The Authority may not make any charges for any library services provided by it unless-

(a) the services in question are specified in a scheme of charges approved by the Department and published by the Authority; and

(b) the charges are made in accordance with that scheme.

(2) The scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities.

We are concerned that even though the department has to approve any charges, this paragraph DOES NOT GUARANTEE IN STATUTE the provision of a free public library service. We feel that it is crucial to make changes to ensure that this right remains and would suggest that Section 6 is worded as follows:

“6.- (1) The Authority may not make any charges for any library services provided by it including the borrowing of books and free access to information except for –

(a) those services specified in a scheme of charges approved by the Department and published by the Authority; and

(b) the charges are made in accordance with that scheme.

(2) The scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities.”

We feel that a democratic society should make legislative provision for its citizens to have free access to books and information.

3.2 Status

Membership

2.- (1) The Authority shall consist of-

(a) a Chair; and
(b) not fewer than 7 or more than 14 other members, appointed by the Department.
(2) In making appointments under sub-paragraph (1), the Department shall so far as practicable secure that each member of the Authority has experience in a field of activity relevant to the discharge of the functions of the Authority.

We are pleased to see the increase in numbers for the Board but would still wish to emphasize the need to recruit Board members with relevant experience, and we would wish that members would also be recruited to represent the geographic spread of communities across Northern Ireland.

3.3 Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

Financial Effects of the Bill

13. Unifying five separate library services will, in time, lead to efficiency savings, particularly through a reduction of staff needed at middle and senior management level. Savings of £0.6m in 2009-10 rising to £1.2m in 2010-11 have been declared. There will be up front costs in setting up the Authority. Start-up costs for the current year have been estimated at £0.67m which covers part year salaries for the Chief Executive (designate) and other senior staff, a support team, rental of temporary premises and consultancy costs.

The SELB is concerned about how the anticipated savings of £0.6 million in 2009/10 and £1.2 million in 2010/11 have been calculated. We agree that one benefit of a single library authority should be ‘a reduction in staff needed at middle and senior management level’; however these sums exceed what is currently spent on senior and middle management across the five library services. The SELB library service has made significant administrative savings over the past three years, directing funding into front-line services, and would not wish the outcome of the single library authority to be a reduction in front-line services, especially those to rural communities. It must also be remembered that if any streamlining is to take place, provision must be made for redundancy costs.

3.4 Corporate and support services – finance, HR, IT etc – are currently supplied to the library service within the general administration of the Education and Library Boards, the costs of which, for historical reasons, are met by the Department of Education. There is no separate accounting process within the Education and Library Boards for the libraries’ part of corporate services and therefore the existing libraries budget within DCAL covers direct costs only. The Library Authority will need to ensure provision of corporate and support services. As these costs have not formed part of the DCAL library budget to date, a bid has to be made to cover them, but they are already provided from the public purse. An exercise to identify the cost of the support services is underway.

Public libraries currently benefit from economies of scale as part of the Education and Library Boards; the size and importance of these must not be underestimated. Support services will cost more in a single library authority than is currently provided for them from the public purse via the Education and Library Boards. It is important therefore that the start up costs of the new authority beyond 2007/08 are identified and funding provided.

4 Additional Points

4.1 The SELB would wish to see the establishment of a statutory Public Library Advisory Forum similar to that proposed for the new Education and Skills Authority. Its membership would include representatives from local councils and its role would be to allow wider engagement of stakeholders within a social partnership model.

4.2 The SELB is still extremely concerned that there is no provision in the legislation for the provision of strategic advice to the new library body. Such advice is available to library services in England, Scotland and Wales through the relevant responsible bodies i.e. Museums, Libraries and Archives Council (MLAC– England), Scottish Library and Information Council (SLIC), and Museums, Libraries and Archives Wales (CyMAL). Members feel that the new Library Authority in Northern Ireland will be even more significantly disadvantaged than previously, in relation to its counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom, through having no external source of advice. The bodies mentioned have a large development and advisory role which is entirely missing in Northern Ireland. Whilst we accept that the small scale of provision in Northern Ireland may well preclude the establishment of a similar body in the province, the Assembly has a responsibility to provide or ensure access to such advice. This should be possible through formal arrangements for provision made across administrations; it should not be left as the remit of ad hoc partnerships arrangements. The small size of the public library sector in Northern Ireland makes access to such advice essential if the province is not to be left behind other parts of the United Kingdom.

4.3 The SELB also feels that a shadow authority should be established as soon as possible to assist in preparation for the new body and help it to become fully operational without any delays.

Western Education and Library Board

WELB Submission Re Libraries Bill

1. The Western Education and Library Board (WELB) is the authority charged with the delivery of education, library and youth services in the council areas of Limavady, Derry, Strabane, Omagh and Fermanagh. The Board is pleased to have an opportunity to make a written submission in respect of the Libraries Bill and its associated Explanatory and Financial Memorandum.

2. Whilst WELB is disappointed that public libraries and education will no longer be part of the same organisations, it recognises the potential benefits of a single library authority with a higher profile and a strong focus on the delivery of high quality library services in line with the policy set out in Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries.

3. This will allow the further development of the seamless and equitable service which the five Education and Library Boards have sought to develop in recent years through, for example, the single IT network for libraries, the single membership card for the whole of Northern Ireland and the ‘borrow anywhere, return anywhere’ policy.

4. Public libraries have much to offer potential partners due to their broad remit, network of 113 community buildings across Northern Ireland plus mobile libraries, the IT network, the annual footfall of some seven million visitors and the positive way in which library users view libraries.

5. WELB’s Library Service, like those in other Boards, works with a wide range of external partners from:

the community and voluntary sector e.g. RNIB;
the statutory sector e.g. councils, health, National Museums, HSENI;
the lifelong learning sector e.g. local colleges, both universities and other learning providers; and
the commercial sector e.g. the Post Office.

6. The establishment of a single library authority will facilitate a greater level of partnership working, particularly at a strategic level as organisations with a Northern Ireland-wide remit will need to engage with just one organisation rather than five. More locally based organisations will, of course, continue to work with local libraries.

7. As the largest library authority in the UK, the new library authority should be in a position to employ specialist and expert staff which cannot currently be afforded by individual library services and who would impact significantly on the quality and reach of library services and increase levels of library use. This might include marketing, external funding and digitisation expertise. In this context the level of savings referred to in the Financial Memorandum is a matter of grave concern.

8. There are a number of issues which arise from the separation of public libraries and education which must be addressed. Some of these relate to the need for mechanisms to ensure continued close working between education and public libraries in order to benefit children and the wider community.

9. The public library service and schools’ library service which provides books, advice and support for school libraries currently share premises, management, vehicles, an IT system, stock contracts and, in some cases, staff, an arrangement which is cost effective.

10. More importantly, the two services work closely together in a way which benefits children and their families, promoting literacy, information literacy and a love of reading. For example, in WELB both services are currently engaged with the Extended Schools initiative and preparing for the Revised Curriculum.

11. Early years is a significant area of activity for public libraries. As well as providing books and other resources for young children and their carers, WELB Libraries:

operate Play and Learn Centres in partnership with Surestart and other early years organisations in seven libraries;
deliver Bookstart, a book gifting scheme for babies and pre-school children;
have developed ‘Chatterpacks’ in partnership with speech and language therapists;
offer regular training events for health visitors and early years professionals; and
provide Rhymetimes and other events for pre school children in libraries. In 2006/07 there were 479 such events with a total attendance of 10,059 pre-school children.

12. With the transfer of early years functions from DHSS and PS to DE this is a second area where close collaboration between education and public libraries will be essential.

13. However, libraries’ contribution to education and lifelong learning is much broader than joint working with the schools’ library service and on the early years agenda. As Tomorrow’s Libraries states:

“They support all kinds of learners and learning including those involved in pre-school or family learning, those following courses at school or college, those pursuing a less formal approach to learning, those who are developing literacy, ICT or information handling skills. They do this successfully because they:

foster a love of reading
promote and encourage reading skills which provide the foundation for lifelong learning
provide access to information which supports courses and informal learning
provide study space, photocopiers and PCs in a neutral and convenient location
have staff who encourage and facilitate the use of information and technology, on a one-to one- basis and through more formal programmes
provide information about courses and learning opportunities
work in partnership with learning providers to provide courses in libraries
get involved in local and national events to promote learning and reading e.g. Adult Learners Week, Family Learning Weekend, World Book Day.”

14. The other key issue relating to the separation of public libraries and education relates to the provision of support services. The memorandum describes the current situation as follows:

“Corporate and support services – finance, HR, IT etc – are currently supplied to the library service within the general administration of the Education and Library Boards, the costs of which, for historical reasons, are met by the Department of Education. There is no separate accounting process within the Education and Library Boards for the libraries’ part of corporate services and therefore the existing libraries budget within DCAL covers direct costs only. The Library Authority will need to ensure provision of corporate and support services. As these costs have not formed part of the DCAL library budget to date, a bid has to be made to cover them, but they are already provided from the public purse. An exercise to identify the cost of the support services is underway.”

15. It is important that it be understood that public libraries currently benefit from huge economies of scale as a result of being part of the Education and Library Boards which have a combined annual budget of £1399.3 million of which £30.3 million or 2.2% is public library expenditure. Support services will, therefore, cost more in a single library authority than is currently provided for them from the public purse via the Education and Library Boards.

16. WELB would seek clarification of how the anticipated savings of £0.6 million in 2009/10 and £1.2 million in 2010/11 have been calculated. Reference is made to a ‘reduction in staff needed at middle and senior management’. Whilst there is a logic to this, these sums exceed what is currently spent on senior and middle management across the five library services and is therefore difficult to understand.

17. It is important that the start up costs of the new authority beyond 2007/08 are identified and funding provided. Within this provision must be made for redundancy costs if any streamlining is to take place.

18. WELB would also seek clarification about the future level of expenditure in the West and the mechanisms that will be put in place to ensure that this is an appropriate proportion of the total budget.

19. The current methodology provides transparency about how resources are allocated on a geographical basis and it is essential that this transparency be maintained. Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries sets out a formula designed to allocate the budget according to a statistically based system designed to achieve equity of provision. This is based on home population projections and includes the skewing of 10% of resources on the basis of social need. This revised formula has been implemented on a phased basis and it is important that this implementation should continue.

20. WELB responded to the consultation on the draft Order and is pleased that changes have been made to the text which reflect the views of WELB and, no doubt, other organisations. It particularly welcomes the commitment to a continuing free service but would wish the wording in relation to this to be strengthened.

21. It remains concerned, however, that the size of the Board remains too small to provide the breadth of expertise that will be required and to deal with the workload. It is also concerned that the membership should reflect the geographical spread of communities across Northern Ireland including rural areas.

22. WELB would like to reiterate a point made in its response to the previous consultation, namely:

“WELB notes that the phrase ‘comprehensive and efficient’ is no longer present at 4 (1). It acknowledges that these words mean little without further definition and is, therefore, content that they should be removed. However, they have two important implications which do need to be retained. ‘Comprehensive’ conveys a service that is available to all who are eligible, an important principle for a public library service which needs to be reflected in the legislation. And ‘efficient’ conveys an expectation that the service will be of a high standard. Again, this needs to be reflected, maybe through reference to standards.”

The Commissioners of the South Eastern Education and Library Board

Written evidence to the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee on the Libraries Bill.

1 Summary

1.1 This memorandum is submitted by the Commissioners of the South Eastern Education and Library Board (SEELB). The SEELB is the authority responsible for the delivery of education, library and youth services in the council areas of Ards, Castlereagh, Down, Lisburn and North Down.

1.2 In this submission we, the Commissioners, welcome the purpose of the Libraries Bill to establish a single library authority for Northern Ireland. It is our view that the single library authority will provide a unique opportunity and focus for the delivery of the high quality library services envisaged by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) in its framework document ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’.

1.3 The submission contains comments on the Libraries Bill and on the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

2 Introduction

2.1 The South Eastern Education and Library Board (SEELB) was established in 1973, following a re-organisation of Local Government in Northern Ireland. It is a corporate body, established under statute as the Local Authority for education, library and youth services in the south-eastern region of the province.

2.2 In addition to other responsibilities the Board is charged with providing a comprehensive and efficient library service to the public and to schools and operates these through:

24 Public Library Service Points
5 Public Service mobiles
a Schools/Education Library Service to all schools

2.3 The SEELB is funded by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) to provide the Public Library Service and by the Department of Education (DE) to provide the Schools/Education Library Service.

2.4 On 6th July 2006 the Department of Education appointed 4 Commissioners to carry out the functions of the Board. The Commissioners are:

Douglas Osler, (Chairman) former Senior Chief Inspector of Education, Scotland
Joan Christie former Chair of the NEELB
Pat Carvill former Permanent Secretary of DE and DFP
Lawson McDonald former senior IDB executive.

2.5 The SEELB has demonstrated an innovative approach to the planning and delivery of library services over the years, working closely with the sponsoring government departments, and other interested parties.

3 General Comments

3.1 We (the Commissioners) are conscious of the immense importance the provisions of the Bill will have for the future provision of public library services in Northern Ireland and we remain convinced that the single library authority offers the most effective and coherent service model to deliver the vision for the future detailed in ‘Delivering Tomorrows Libraries’.

3.2 Through the innovative electronic library services project, a service unique in the United Kingdom, a single library network was created providing seamless equitable access for all to the range of high quality services in the 113 public libraries in Northern Ireland. The single library authority will provide the means to further this process of streamlining services initiated by the 5 library services and supported by DCAL.

3.3 More and more organisations are keen to work with the Library Service and see its value in terms of furthering their own agendas by utilising both the access to the public provided by the network of branch and mobile libraries and the services and resources held by them. Vibrant organisations thrive on partnerships and the 5 library services have each engaged with a range of partners to improve and extend services

3.4 The SEELB has developed some very productive partnerships, sharing staff expertise, buildings and other resources. Many of these have resulted in the development of programmes and services in learning, education, arts and culture with bodies such as EGSA, Help the Aged, WEA, Local Colleges/Institutes of Further and Higher Education, Schools, Local Councils, Museums, PRONI, Arts Council, Health services, community groups. Among the most effective have been cooperative ventures with Local Councils on arts, culture and diversity programmes and with partners in the Health services through SureStart and BookStart and more recently with the innovative Books on Prescription project and Baby Clinic in the library pilot. It was another innovative partnership with the business sector that resulted in the procurement of new Lisburn City Library.

3.5 The single library authority will have a greater focus and profile than that achieved by the 5 library services operating separately and will be advantageously placed as a single body to engage in more effective partnership working particularly at strategic level in planning and delivering services

3.6 The new single library authority for Northern Ireland will be the largest library authority in the United Kingdom. The combined resources of the five current services (staff, buildings, facilities, services, funding) in this one body offers tremendous potential to rejuvenate and improve the quality, depth and range of services. This includes the opportunity to develop a more strategic approach to capital development on a province wide basis.

3.7 It is our view that any move to disaggregate rather than to press ahead to integrate library services as proposed under the Review of Public Administration would jeopardise the expected economies of scale and the higher public profile more fully realisable through a single authority

3.8 The establishment of the new library authority will result in the separation of the public library service from the schools/education library service. It remains our contention that the current close relationship between the public and education library services works to the immense benefit of children and young people. The Public Library Service (PLS) and Schools/Education Library Service (S/ELS) cooperate in developing reading and information programmes and services to support children and young people. Early Learning is a major service focus for the PLS as well as the S/ELS and it is important that these links with mainstream education are not fractured. We would urge the two departments, DCAL and DE, to move swiftly to put in place appropriate mechanisms for delivery of the service to schools that will continue to take advantage of the many cost effective arrangements in place with the PLS such as shared premises, staff, contracts, vehicles.

3.9 We trust that the passage of the Bill will maintain its present momentum working towards the establishment of the new library authority on 1 April 2008. In the meantime we would urge that steps are taken to reduce the uncertainty affecting staff who are anxious about their future by providing more clarity around the transfer process and the impact of appointments to the new body.

4 Specific Comments on the Libraries Bill

4.1 In our response to the Draft Order we stated our view that the legislation should be sufficiently enabling without being overly prescriptive or restrictive about the provision of library services and we are pleased to note that the Bill seeks to achieve this.

4.2 We note also and welcome the changes in the Bill in relation to charges. While there is not the explicit guarantee of a free library service we are encouraged by the strength of the commitment to the retention of a universal service, free at the point as articulated in paragraphs 5 and 7 and in Clause 6 of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

5 Specific Comments on the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

5.1 We are pleased to note in paragraphs 3 and 4 that the Bill references closely to the Departments framework policy document ‘Delivering Tomorrows Libraries’.

5.2 We have already commented at 4.2 above on charges and welcome again the comment in Clause 6 that it retains the principle of the free public lending library and free access to information.

5.3 We note the comments in paragraphs 13 and 14 in the section on the Financial effects of the Bill and the savings expected from unifying 5 services in particular those from ‘reductions of staff needed at middle and senior management levels’. While savings in management costs could be expected, reductions in these management tiers alone are unlikely to produce the predicted savings of £0.6 million in 2009/10 and £1.2million in 2010/11.

5.4 We would wish to be assured that the full impact of the costs of transition and moving 5 services to one authority including the likely additional costs of providing the necessary support services has been factored into the funding requirement for 2007-08 and beyond. It is important in particular given the expected savings from reductions in staffing that provision is made for potential redundancy costs as the process of unifying 5 services moves on.

5.5 We would ask for details of the calculations and assumptions on which the estimated efficiency savings and start-up costs have been based.

UNISON

Libraries Bill: Committee Stage

1 UNISON, the public service union welcomes the invitation to submit written evidence on the Libraries Bill to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure.

2 UNISON has 35,000 members in our Northern Ireland Region, and 1.4m across the UK. It lobbies across the UK for high quality library services, and the recognition of librarianship as a skilled and rewarding profession that makes a key contribution to lifelong learning and social cohesion.

Key issues

3 We would wish to raise two issues for consideration by the Committee:

a) the principle of a separate Library Authority

b) paragraphs 4-10 of Schedule 2 (transfer of employment)

Creation of Library Authority

4 It is the view of UNISON that the Committee should recommend to the Assembly that this legislation be not proceeded with given that its proposal to create a freestanding Library Authority is fundamentally flawed, and incapable of reasoned amendment. The draft legislation as it stands puts at fundamental risk our excellent and free provision of library and related services.

5 A core theme of public sector reform that commands wide consensus is the need to control the proliferation of quango-type bodies, and the need to reduce them. We have here the creation of a specific new quango for a specific sector. In comparison with GB and ROI models, the small scale and geographic spread of Library sectors do not generally lead to the creation of single purpose delivery bodies.

6 The proposed Authority will face significant challenges in building critical mass, particularly in the absorption of corporate overheads and support costs (the Explanatory Memorandum lacks conviction on this). This will bear down on service delivery and employment. The proposed Authority simply lacks the required economies of scale.

7 UNISON in responding to the RPA identified the critical links between Libraries and the wider Education and Lifelong Learning agendas, and the damage to these links that a stand-alone Libraries model would create. While Education Reform is formally outside the brief of your Committee joined-up government requires recognition of the recently-announced Ministerial delay in Education reform, and the consequent need not to pre-empt effective joint solutions to Education and Library delivery. This and the arguments above create a convincing case to park the legislation currently before you.

Schedule 2:

8 Paragraph 4(1-4) seeks to create a legal basis for the creation of a transfer scheme without the requirement for such a scheme to be established and agreed by relevant parties (including recognised trade unions) before any relevant transfer takes place. This contradicts the process of seeking pre-transfer agreement in Health, and ongoing work in the Education sector to achieve this.

9 The creation of a transfer scheme, and consultation thereon with a view to seeking agreement pre-transfer, should therefore be stipulated in the legislation.

10 Section 4(3)(c) – resolution of grievances – makes no provision for the use of agreed and independent third-party grievance resolution mechanisms, and is deficient in this regard. UNISON and NIC-ICTU are seeking the incorporation of such provision in all RPA-related legislation and protocols. The third party process should be able to adjudicate on and resolve grievances relating to TUPE and/or transfer schemes and associated documents (e.g. Frameworks), without reference to Industrial Tribunals.

11 Your Committee should understand that resistance to this from NICS because of alleged ‘contamination’ of their internal employment approach is defensive, and fails to recognise the wider public purpose of rights for all employees affected by the RPA.

NOTE:

12 UNISON is willing to give oral evidence on the issues above if requested by the Committee.

Association of Chief Librarians

Written evidence to the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee on the Libraries Bill

The Association of Chief Librarians (ACL) is pleased to have an opportunity to make a written submission in respect of the Libraries Bill and to comment on the associated Explanatory and Financial Memorandum.

Introduction

1 The Association of Chief Librarians is composed of the chief librarians of the five Education and Library Boards who are responsible for the development, management and delivery of the public library service throughout Northern Ireland to communities and schools through the schools library service.

Each year, Public Libraries in Northern Ireland:

Welcome more than 7 million visitors
Deal with 1.6 million enquiries
Lend approx 6 million items
Provide access to 1200 computers with broadband internet access
Provide 2 million books for loan
Deliver a comprehensive library service via 113 branch libraries
Provide mobile libraries to serve areas without a branch library
Allow library users to use their ticket at any branch in any part of Northern Ireland.

During the partnership with the boards, the library service experienced a period of development and harmonisation which enabled many innovative services and practice to be introduced, including the establishment of electronic library services through a single ICT network across all library authorities.

Initial Comments

2 It was the view of the ACL that quality of service should be the priority when establishing a structure to deliver the library service in Northern Ireland. We accept that a single regional authority, with a focus on the delivery of high quality library services could offer improvements in the co-ordination and integration of services. This could usher in a new and exciting era for further library development in Northern Ireland but only if supported by the requisite funding.

Specific Comments on the Libraries Bill

3 The legislation as currently drafted, still in our view, provides inadequate protection for a library service “free at the point of need” a principle enshrined since the 1850 Public Libraries Act. The possibility in the future of core services being made the subject of charges to redress the shortfall in government funding for this essential community service is still a concern.

4 Allied to the above point, the wording at Clause 2(a) relating to the Duty of Authority to provide library services we feel is still weak. There should be a link with appropriate standards of provision in the absence of the clause previously in the legislation which required the service to be “comprehensive and efficient”

5 At Clause 2 the phrase” library materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children” is inadequate in our view. The ACL is concerned that sufficient emphasis is not given to the need to provide reference and research collections as well as acknowledging the need to exploit the unique historical and cultural resources held in the region.

6 The RPA, in its initial consultation paper, noted that

“there is a link between quality and the provision of service at a local level, by local people, and with oversight by individuals who had local knowledge and were readily accessible to members of the public”

The ACL is still concerned about the make up of the board of the proposed Library Authority and its ability to reflect democratically, regionally and sectorally the broad range of users of the library service. There is also concern that the numbers, although increased, may not be sufficient to deal with the work load.

7 The public library service (PLS) and schools’ library service (SLS) which provides books, advice and support for school libraries currently share premises, management, vehicles, an IT system, stock contracts and, in some cases, staff, an arrangement which is cost effective. When the SLS is separated from the PLS in the future, there will be a need for mechanisms to ensure continued close working between education and public libraries. This will ensure the continuation of partnership working in areas such as early years, literacy as well as SLS to the benefit of children and the wider community.

Comments on the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

8 The basis for the savings quoted in the section on the financial effects of the bill should be broken down in detail. The ACL have grave concerns about the level of savings anticipated in the new authority.

9 It is important to understand that public libraries currently benefit from huge economies of scale as a result of being part of the Education and Library Boards. Support services will, therefore, cost more in a single library authority than is currently provided for them from the public purse via the Education and Library Boards. In view of the Board’s contribution to library support services the cost in both financial and staff terms is significant and must be identified, agreed by Committee and funded in order to protect existing service levels for the community.

10 As the largest library authority in the UK, the new library authority should be in a position to employ specialist and expert staff which cannot currently be afforded by individual library services and who would impact significantly on the quality and reach of library services and increase levels of library use. This might include marketing, external funding and digitisation expertise. In this context the level of savings referred to in the Financial Memorandum is a matter of grave concern.

11 Reference is made to a ‘reduction in staff needed at middle and senior management’ in order to make savings. The ACL would be concerned at the figures cited and indeed if major savings from staff reduction would be achieved in the long term.

12 It is important that the start up costs of the new authority beyond 2007/08 are identified and funding provided. Within this, provision must be made for redundancy costs if any streamlining is to take place.

13 It is also important that realistic funding for the new authority is provided in order to facilitate future development.

The Association of Chief Librarians would urge Members of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure to give detailed and careful consideration to the above issues and ensure that the future library service for Northern Ireland is arranged structurally and financially to fully meet the wide variety of needs both local and provincial.

The Association of Chief Librarians would be happy to provide witnesses, if required, to the Committee.

Linen Hall Library

Belfast Education and Library Board

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Big Lottery Fund

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North Eastern Education & Library Board

1 Introduction

1.1 The North Eastern Education and Library Board is a non-departmental public body which performs a wide range of functions in the funding and delivery to local education, youth and library services to approximately 400,000 people and 73,000 pupils in schools in this area.

1.2 The Board is the local Education and Library Authority for most of County Antrim and the eastern part of County Londonderry comprising the Local Government districts of Antrim; Ballymena; Ballymoney; Carrickfergus; Coleraine; Larne; Magherafelt; Moyle and Newtownabbey.

1.3 The Board welcomes the opportunity to respond to the Libraries Bill.

2 Preferred Option

2.1 In its response to consultation regarding the Review of Public Administration, the Board’s preferred option was for the public library service to remain within the education sector. The Board pointed out the benefits achieved through the integration of the public library and the school library service and the economies of scale occurring as a result of libraries being part of the Education and Library Boards. We believe the public library service is inter alia an education service complementing the statutory and voluntary education service, for example public libraries have a significant role to play in raising standards of literacy amongst young people and adults.

2.2 Furthermore the current model where the Public Library Service and the Schools Library Service are together with the Education Authority allows for shared services, such as vehicle maintenance, IT, and other back offices services as well as shared premises. This is a very cost effective arrangement.

3 Implementation Arrangements

3.1 The Libraries Bill has already been placed before the Assembly and is at Committee Stage. However the Education Bill has not yet been published and it looks as though it will be sometime before the legislation to establish ESA will be enacted. There is therefore a strong possibility that the Library Authority will be established before ESA. The Board is very concerned about such a scenario, it would be very difficult to manage, affect staff morale and undoubtedly affect the delivery of services.

4 Comments on the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

4.1 Paragraph 9 of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum states that “Retaining the link with education was also less attractive because libraries have cultural, recreational and community roles, as well as educational”. Libraries currently perform all of these functions as part of an Education and Library Board and could continue to do so within any proposed reorganisation of the education service.

4.2 A key issue relating to the separation of public libraries and education relates to the provision of support services. Paragraph 14 of the memorandum describes the current situation with regard to the provision of Corporate Services to the Public Library Service and Boards have a combined annual budget of £1393.3 million with a further 2.2% for Public Library expenditure. The Board is concerned that the cost of providing support services to a new Library Authority has yet to be determined and is of the view that the cost of support service to a new Library Authority will be much greater than is currently the case. Furthermore in paragraph 13, it states that “Savings of £0.6m in 2009-10 rising to £1.2m in 2010-11 have been declared.” The Board would wish to know how these savings have been calculated.

4.3 It is also important that the set up costs of a new authority are identified and that adequate funding is provided. The latter will have to include redundancy costs to take account of the reference to “reduction in staff needed at middle and senior management level.” (paragraph 13).

5 Comments on the Libraries Bill

5.1 The NEELB Library Service is pleased to note that many of the changes made to the text reflect the views expressed by the Board in its response to the consultation on the draft Order.

5.2 As was stated in our response “the successful outcome of the ‘Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries’ document is dependent upon legislation which is flexible enough to permit ongoing changes to practices and procedures.”

5.3 We are content that this draft Bill will facilitate these changes which are vital to the delivery of a modern library service whether it becomes a Single Authority, or remains as part of the Education Authority.

Anne Connolly

Director of Library and Corporate Services
North Eastern Education and Library Board

Marion McLaughlin

Personal Submission RE Libraries Bill

1. As a lifelong member of the Public Library Service (PLS) and a librarian working in the Schools Library Service of the Western Education and Library Board, I am pleased to have an opportunity to comment on the Libraries Bill

2. I support the creation of a single library authority for Northern Ireland as it is the logical culmination of the ELFNI project. The new, large authority will benefit from strategic partnership working and will be better placed to deliver high quality services as outlined in Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries.

3. I support the inclusion of the Schools Library Service (SLS) with the new Education Skills Agency, but would urge the legislators to ensure that the PLS and the SLS have mechanisms in place to permit co-operative working, given the current focus on lifelong learning, literacy and extended schools. Education is the business of the whole community and we need a joined-up approach to its provision.

4. I am concerned about the savings referred to in the Financial Memorandum. Clearly, senior posts will be reduced as 5 services merge into 1. It would, however, be a grave error to make substantial reductions in middle management, as the potential loss of expertise will have a deleterious effect on the new service and gravely handicap its ability to be innovative.

5. I am concerned that there appears to be no additional or contingency budget for the start up costs which will inevitably be incurred in the first year of the new authority’s existence

6. I am concerned that there has been no provision made for corporate and support services

7. I question the need to cut the library budget at all, particularly at a time when we have the opportunity to establish a flagship service. This is the time for a bold vision, not mere cost cutting

8. There is no mention in the Bill of new technology or of the complexities in the area of digital archives. There are significant challenges to be met in this domain in the near future, yet there seems to be neither commitment nor funding to enable the PLS to rise to the challenge. It is true that the Bill mentions partnerships with other agencies, such as LISC or the Linenhall Library, but the PLS will require funding in order to establish the relevant partnerships

9. I am disappointed that the Bill does not make any reference to the location of jobs, as, in the interest of fairness, the local economy and equality of opportunity, these should be spread as evenly as possible throughout N Ireland

10. The proposed Board is small and needs the power to establish subcommittees to deal with a wide range of complex issues.

11. There is no mention of the difficulties of providing services in rural areas.

12. The Bill specifies that the PLS will “meet the general requirements of adults and children” and will “have regard to the desirability of …meeting any special requirements of adults and children”. There needs to be a stronger commitment to lifelong learning and a specific, not “desirable”, requirement to support disabled customers

13. It is regrettable that the Bill does not promise that the library service will be “comprehensive and efficient”. “Comprehensive” implies inclusivity and a service available to all who are eligible.

Professor Derek Birrell

I enclose some general comments re Public Consultation on the Libraries Bill.

1. Context of Proposals

In the light of the restoration of devolution and the current review of local government, there is a case for deferral of this bill and further consideration to an appropriate governance system for the delivery of library services.

2. Libraries as a Local Government Service

There are strong reasons for further consideration of libraries as a local government service

Libraries are a core local government service in the rest of the UK and in the Republic of Ireland.
Library provision should reflect local needs and social, cultural and demographic differences
Library provision does not have political/sectarian salience and therefore is highly suitable for local government
Allocation of library provision to local councils would assist in more sustainable local government, given these still limited functions proposed for local government in Northern Ireland

3. Unsuitability of a Quango – The Proposed Library Authority

The case for the use of a quango – an arms length approach - is normally justified in systems of public administration for the following reasons:

Where the functions are quasi-judicial/regulatory
Where the functions require professional/scientific/technical judgements
Giving independent advice
To be taking decisions better kept at arms length from government
To undertake activities inappropriate for central/local government
To undertake quasi-commercial/entrepreneurial activities

Library provision does not fall into these rationales

4. Unsuitability of a Single Library Authority

There are a number of reasons why a single library authority is highly unsuitable:

The authority is catering for too large a population of almost 1.7 million. This contrasts with 22 library bodies for Wales with a population of 2.9 million. The average council size in Great Britain is 120,000 population.
A single authority will not be co-terminus with most other public bodies, particularly local councils and makes community planning, based at council level, very difficult.
A single authority cannot be responsive to local and sub-regional needs
A single authority will give decision making power on library provision for the whole of Northern Ireland to a small unelected and unrepresentative board with no mechanisms in the Library Bill for public participation/ user involvement

Professor Derek Birrell

School of Policy Studies
University of Ulster
Magee Campus
Northland Road
Londonderry
BT48 7JL
028 71375203

Chartered Institute of
Library and Information Professionals UK

Libraries Bill – consultation

1. CILIP, the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals, is the professional and regulatory body for the library and information sector across the UK.

2. CILIP welcomes the opportunity to comment on the Libraries Bill as introduced in the Northern Ireland Assemble on 11 June 2007, and on the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum attached to the Bill.

3. CILIP welcomes the establishment of the single Northern Ireland Library Authority and has provided assistance to DCAL in preparing for the establishment of the new single body. Comments here are restricted to specific aspects of the Bill and the Memorandum.

4. Clause 2 of the Bill sets out the “Duty of Authority” to provide library service. CILIP would wish to see this Clause strengthened by reference to the standards of provision which users of the library service will be entitled to expect.

5. Clause 6 of the Bill safeguards the principle that library service should be free at the point of use and CILIP welcomes this. However the Clause would be strengthened if it were made clear that the scheme of charges cannot include charging for core elements of the service such as membership, use of resources for reference within the library, and off-the-shelf book borrowing.

6. Paragraphs 13 and 14 of the Memorandum outline some of the financial effects of the Bill. Paragraph 13 specifies current year start-up costs but there appears to be no provision for future transitional costs. Specific levels of efficiency savings are declared for the financial years 09/10 and 10/11 with an expectation of staff reductions at senior and middle management levels. Such forecasts seem premature and CILIP is concerned that such forecasts carry with them the strong possibility that the new Authority will come into being in a negative climate of cost reduction, uncertainty and potential conflict rather than a positive climate of service development and partnership building.

7. One consequence of the establishment of the new Authority is to decouple the present working arrangements between libraries and schools. The value of reading and literacy for life is well understood and children benefit from close collaboration between schools and their local library service. CILIP’s strong advice is that systems for close collaboration between schools and libraries – in particular with regard to the School Library Service – need to be built in to the new arrangements.

8. CILIP would welcome the opportunity to give evidence to the Committee as the work of establishing the legislative framework for the new Northern Ireland Library Authority continues.

Dr Bob McKee

Chief Executive
CILIP
7 Ridgmount Street
London
WC1E 7AE
Email: bob.mckee@cilip.org.uk

NIPSA

Introduction

1. NIPSA, as the Trade Union representing the vast majority of staff within the current Public Library Service and the Education and Library Boards, welcomes the opportunity to provide written evidence to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure on the Libraries Bill.

2. In doing so NIPSA believes it is imperative that the Public Library Service be appropriately and adequately funded to deliver a high class free service to the citizens of Northern Ireland. The establishment of a Northern Ireland Library Authority gives the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL), the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) and the NI Assembly the unique opportunity to invest in the future of Northern Ireland’s Public Library Service which has been under-funded for many years.

3. NIPSA is concerned that neither the Bill nor the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum refer to the provision of the Schools Library Service. NIPSA believes that there is a need to address the interface issues between the two services e.g. ensuring that staff maintain their right to move between the two services.

Explanatory and Financial Memorandum

4. Para 13:- NIPSA notes the projected declared savings of £0.6m in 2009-10 rising to £1.2m in 2010-11. The Explanatory Memorandum does not give any detail as to how these figures were arrived at and NIPSA would not accept these figures as accurate. In any event as the Trade Union representing the majority of staff in the Public Library Service NIPSA will expect to be fully consulted on any proposals regarding a new staffing structure. NIPSA has written to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure Officials seeking an explanation for these figures and we would advocate that the Committee should also seek a detailed analysis of the figures. At this point in time NIPSA is not in a position to comment in detail on the projected savings, nor on the start-up costs for the current year estimated at £0.67m.

5. Para 14:- NIPSA has sought to be fully consulted on the outworkings of the exercise being carried out by Deloitte Consultants on the cost of support services. NIPSA fully accepts that the NI Library Authority must ensure provision of corporate and support services which will need to be properly and adequately funded. NIPSA believes the most appropriate way to provide these services is through direct provision within the NI Library Authority. As these services are currently provided from within the Education and Library Boards and funded by Department of Education then the staff currently providing the services to both Education and Libraries staff need to be fully protected. There needs to be a detailed analysis of how the transfer of staff will be effected and for intensive negotiations with NIPSA on the Staff Transfer Scheme as required under the Public Service Commission’s guiding principles.

6. Para 16:- NIPSA does not accept the Department’s conclusion that there is no need for a full EQIA. A major public service reorganisation of this scale must be subject to rigorous assessment of all potential equality implications for the staff affected. NIPSA would therefore seek a review of the Department’s decision not to carry out a full EQIA and seeks the support of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure for this request.

Libraries Bill

7. Ancillary Powers of the Authority Clause 3: NIPSA believes that there should be scope for the Authority to co-operate with other bodies whose aims and purposes are in accord with Clause 2(2) of the bill e.g. Linenhall Library. This may require a separate sub clause at 3(2)(h).

8. Charges for Certain Library Services Clause 6: NIPSA welcomes the amendments made to the Draft Libraries (NI) Order 2007 regarding the charging for certain library services. However NIPSA is still concerned that in Clause 6(2) the legislation states that the “scheme of charges may make different provision for different cases including different provision in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities” which is potentially discriminatory.

9. Schedule 1 - Para 2 – Membership:- NIPSA notes the small increase in the membership of the Authority of between 8 - 15 (including the Chairman) and remains concerned that at the lower end of the scale the number of Authority members would not be workable or appropriate in terms of breadth of knowledge, experience required and fair representation of interests. There must also be sufficient members to facilitate the setting up of sub-committees of the Authority eg Audit, Finance etc. Furthermore, it is NIPSA’s view that a number of the seats on the Authority should be allocated to elected representatives and trade union nominees and appropriate selection criteria should be established for appointments to achieve this objective.

10. Schedule 1 – Para 3 – Tenure of Office:- It is NIPSA’s view that any member or Chairman should be eligible for reappointment for a maximum of one term.

11. Schedule 1 Para 6: NIPSA believes that there is a need to provide provision for a secondment from and between the Authority and the Education and Library Boards, plus the successor body to the Boards. This would also provide for the point at para 3 above re the Schools Library Service.

12. Schedule 2 – Transfer Scheme:- The content of Schedule 2 of the Draft Libraries Order was subject to detailed consultations between OFM/DFM and ICTU at the Review of Public Administration Central Joint Forum (CJF). This was in recognition that the proposed statutory provisions relating to the transfer of staff to the new Library Authority would be the model for all future RPA staff transfers in all other sectors.

13. In submitting comments on the draft Order, ICTU Trade Union Side sought a number of amendments. These amendments were based on Senior Legal Counsel’s advice to ensure that staff’s employment rights were fully protected in line with the Government’s stated intentions. A copy of ICTU’s submission is attached at Appendix 1 to this paper. A copy of this submission was also sent directly to DCAL.

14. Subsequently however, OFM/DFM responded to the Trade Union Side arguing that he amendments sought to Schedule 2 were unnecessary. A copy of OFM/DFM’s letter dated 1 May 2007 is attached at Appendix 2.

15. Trade Union Side has have sought further legal advice on these matters. We remain strongly concerned that the current provisions in the Bill may not provide the necessary protection of staffs rights and we believe all the disputed clauses in Schedule 2 should be subject to further detailed scrutiny at Committee stage. NIPSA will provide further briefings on these points as necessary.

Conclusion

16. NIPSA has identified a number of points on the Libraries Bill for further consideration. One of our primary concerns is the proposed provisions in Schedule 2 relating to staff transfers. As set out above, NIPSA has grave reservations, based on Senior Legal Counsel’s advice, that the statutory provision does not provide adequate protection of staffs interests. Moreover, as this formulation may become a template for other transfer legislation it is imperative that the Committee gives full and detailed consideration to this part of the Bill. We all have a duty to ensure that the statutory provisions will fully protect the interests of staff many of whom have dedicated all of their working lives to the public sector within Northern Ireland.

17 July 2007

Appendix 1

Draft Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 2007
Schedule 2 – Transfer Schemes

1. This paper sets out the trade unions’ comments on the proposed Schedule 2 of the Draft Order on Transfer Schemes – specifically the provisions relating to employment contracts.

2. The purpose of paragraphs 4-10 of the Schedule is to implement the provisions of the PSC’s Third Guiding Principle and associated recommendations. The trade unions submit that the following points should be considered further in relation to paragraph 4.

Schedule 2

Paragraph 1

3. Senior Counsel advises us as follows. Schedule 2 of the Draft Libraries (NI) Order 2007 deals with Transfer Schemes. Relevant to employee contracts, it is provided within Schedule 2 paragraph 1 that a scheme may create rights or liabilities between the transferor and the authority. The first matter of note therefore is that the scheme cannot create rights or liabilities between the transferred employee and the transferor or the transferee. This needs to be addressed.

4. Consequently the trade unions propose that a further sub paragraph is added to establish rights and liabilities as above to paragraph 1 of Schedule 2.

Paragraph 4(2)

5. Paragraph 4 (2) appears to be an antonymous statement independent of paragraph 4 (3) that needs to be considered discretely. Paragraph 4 (2) suggests that the TUPE Regulations apply to the transfer whether or not the transfer would, apart from this paragraph, be a relevant transfer for the purposes of those regulations. Matters are not that simple. Regulation 7 of the TUPE Regulations 2006 states that the right to claim automatic unfair dismissal is confined to circumstances where the dismissal arises by virtue of a relevant transfer. Paragraph 4 (2) of the Draft Order states that TUPE applies to the transfer whether or not the transfer would be a relevant transfer for the purposes of those regulations. However, though it may not have been intended by the draughtsman, there remains an issue as to whether or not an employee affected by the transfer is to be entitled to bring an application for compensation for unfair dismissal before the Industrial Tribunal without having to prove that the transfer giving rise to the dismissal was a relevant transfer. Paragraph 4 (2) does not confer upon the Industrial Tribunal a jurisdiction to hold that there has been an unfair dismissal in circumstances where there is no relevant transfer.

6. Senior Counsel advised that this issue needs to be addressed and suggests that the parliamentary draughtsman may wish to look at an amendment to the legislation conferring jurisdiction upon the Industrial Tribunal. This might be capable of being addressed within the Draft Libraries (NI) Order 2007.

7. Similarly, Senior Counsel advises that the remedy afforded by Regulation 12 of the 2006 Regulations (Remedy For Failure to Notify Employee Liability Information) is confined to circumstances involving a relevant transfer. Similar considerations apply in relation to the presentation of a complaint to the Industrial Tribunal in circumstances where the transfer may not be a relevant transfer.

8. Regulation 13 of the 2006 Regulations (the obligation to consult and inform representatives of affected employees) is similarly compromised. The remedy under Regulation 15 of the 2006 Regulations is again dependent upon proof of their being a relevant transfer in order for jurisdiction to be conferred upon the Industrial Tribunal.

Paragraph 4(3)(c) and (d)

9. For trade unions a key part of the PSC’s Third Guiding Principle is the provision for independent third party resolution processes dealing with disputes on implementation and compensation. We believe this needs to be more explicitly covered in paragraphs 4(3)(c). In addition it also needs to be clear that these processes include disputes relating to compensation under paragraph 4(3)(d).

10. Trade unions therefore propose the following amendments:-

4(3)(c) Amend to read: “include provision for procedures incorporating independent arbitration designed to resolve any grievances of such employees . . . scheme.”

4(3)(d) Add the words “and which will also be subject to the procedures to resolve any grievances referred to in paragraph 3(c).”

11. In addition paragraph 6 of the draft Order should be amended. Trade unions are concerned that the proposed provision does not provide sufficient clarity that the dispute resolution procedures are independent. For example, as currently drafted, these would permit a grievance to be considered by a member of the Education and Library Board or the Authority.

12. Trade unions believe an alternative form of wording also therefore needs to be considered for this paragraph and we suggest the following:-

“(6) Procedures under paragraph 3(c) and 3(d) above shall include a mechanism for grievances to be referred to independent arbitration under the aegis of the Labour Relations Agency.”

If it is necessary to give effect to the above suggestion the Government should consider an amendment of the Industrial Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (Article 84 et seq).

Paragraph 4(5)(b)

13. There needs to be clarity that “rights to acquire pension benefits” does provide clear statutory protection of the pension benefits a person was entitled to before transfer in line with paragraph 4(3)(b) of the Schedule. For example, we note the equivalent provision in the North/South Co-operation Implementation Bodies (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 [Schedule 4 paragraph 2(5)] is expressed in the following terms:-

“Statutory Instruments 1999 No 859

(5) Superannuation benefits granted to persons who are transferred under sub-paragraph (1) and the terms and conditions relating to those benefits shall not be less favourable to those persons than those to which they were entitled immediately before the designated date.”

14. Trade unions submit therefore that further consideration should be given to a revised wording of paragraph 4(5)(b) on the following lines:-

“pension protection is secured for a transferring employee if after that change in his employer, he has, as an employee of the Authority, acquired pension benefits and the terms and conditions relating to those benefits which are the same as or (taken as a whole) not less favourable than those he had as an employee of the Education and Library Board.”

OFMDFM.ai

Appendix 2

Mr J Corey
General Secretary
NIPSA
Harkin House
54 Wellington Park
Belfast
BT9 6DP 1 May 2007

Dear John

Rpa: Staff Transfer Legislation

You wrote to me on 9 February with comments on Schedule 2 of the Draft Libraries Order. As mentioned at the meeting of CJF on 27 April, final decisions on a number of outstanding issues on cross-cutting HR issues will not be made until after 8 May but I thought it would be useful to give you an early read out on the consideration of your comments on the draft legislation.

As we have agreed, the HSS Trust Transfer Orders do not meet the objectives committed to and we are in the process of considering how best to deal with that issue. However, we are concerned to ensure that subsequent implementation legislation, when it becomes law, meets those commitments in full. On this basis, we have asked our legal advisers and the Office of Legislative Counsel to consider the comments made by NICICTU in the context of Government’s commitment that all primary implementation legislation should include the necessary provisions to ensure that:

It is made clear and unambiguous that the 2006 TUPE Regulations will apply in full and without exception to all staff affected by transfers to the new organisations;
Arrangements are in place to secure protection of pensions to such staff;
There shall be independent 3rd party dispute resolution arrangements to deal with issues arising out of the transfers; and
There shall be arrangements made to award, if appropriate, compensation to staff who suffer a loss or detriment as a consequence of the transfer scheme.

Having considered the comments you submitted, it remains the opinion of the Legislative Draftsman that the above policy objectives would be achieved in full by the legislation as currently drafted.

The points made by your counsel particularly concern the method of implementing PSC’s third guiding principle and the Cabinet Office guidance that TUPE shall apply to all staff transferring within the public sector.

At paragraph 3, you comment that the scheme is incapable of creating rights or liabilities between the employee and the transferor or transferee. This is not correct since the scheme implements a TUPE transfer which creates such rights.
You consider that the draft Order does not ensure that an employee bringing a claim to an industrial tribunal does not have to prove that his transfer was a relevant transfer. However, Schedule 2 paragraph 4(2) is quite specific in this regard – TUPE applies to the transfer whether or not it would apart from that paragraph be a relevant transfer. This clearly makes TUPE apply, and if so the transfer is a relevant transfer. Legislation regarding tribunal jurisdiction does not have to be amended as suggested. The further points you raise rest on the same argument and, therefore, the same response applies.
You question as to whether compensation offers should be subject to third party dispute resolution. It is Government’s intention that they should. No employee who has a claim within the jurisdiction of an industrial tribunal can be prevented from taking his claim there. If he were dissatisfied with compensation offered by the employer that would be his course of action. The tribunal would take any compensation already paid into account but could of course order more to be paid. The third party dispute resolution procedure was intended to provide a means of avoiding such tribunal claims. However, the amendments suggested are not considered necessary as 4(3)(d) (not 4(2)(d) as stated by the submission) is clearly already subject to 4(3)(c).
The proposed amendment in relation to paragraph 4(6) (not paragraph 6 as stated in the submission) is unnecessary. The suggestion is that the paragraph as drafted would allow grievances to be heard for example by a member of an Education and Library Board or an Authority, and the hearing is, therefore, not independent. In fact the draft paragraph states that grievance procedures must involve “a person other than a member”, so providing an independent voice. The suggested amendment to the Industrial Relations (NI) Order 1992 is, therefore, not required.
An issue regarding pensions is also raised and comparison is made with the North/South Implementation Bodies (NI) Order 1999 which states benefits shall not be “less favourable”. The reference in the draft Order to benefits which are “the same or (taken as a whole) not less favourable” is consistent with the intended policy.
Also on pensions the suggestion that draft be changed to “has acquired pension benefits” would not be appropriate and could not be allowed as employees cannot be made to acquire benefits.

As pointed out earlier, final decisions on any draft legislation which would be introduced to the Assembly post 8 May, would be subject to the approval of the devolved administration. However, the position based on the comments submitted by NICICTU and, subsequent discussions on the matter, is that it is considered the current draft would meet the policy objectives already committed to by Government. Any changes to this draft would be for the Executive and Assembly to decide.

Yours sincerely

John McMillen Sig.psd

John McMillen
cc HOCS

Permanent Secretaries
Mr Gray
Mr Baker
Mr Daly
Mr Kelly
Mr Prince
Mrs Armstrong (DCAL)

DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT @ 17th May

Tenth Guiding Principle and Associated Recommendations

Employment Relations

Introduction

1. The Commission’s role is to safeguard the interests of staff and to ensure their smooth transfer to new organisations established as a consequence of Government decisions on the Review of Public Administration, taking into account statutory obligations, including those arising from Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. In formulating the guiding principle and associated recommendation, the Commission has also had due regard to the Government’s commitment, as set out in the statement of 22 November 2005, that “Every possible effort will be made to avoid redundancies.”

2. Given the extent and complexity of the RPA, the number of individual employers involved and the large numbers of staff affected, the Commission considers that Government should ensure that employers are reminded of their obligations to comply with collective agreements and, as appropriate, inform, consult and negotiate with all employees, their representatives and the trade unions, all of whom contribute to the establishment, development and maintenance of mutually effective working relationships and conditions. Key cornerstones of any successful organisation are good internal communications and genuine and effective consultation arrangements. The Commission wishes to emphasise that whilst Employment Relations is cited in the Commission’s sixth Guiding Principle, the Commission believes it is necessary to further accentuate its importance with the development of a specific Guiding Principle.

3. The Public Service Commission has consulted Government, the sectoral Staff Commissions, NIC/ICTU and the Labour Relations Agency about this Guiding Principle on Employment Relations. This is part of a wider set of arrangements which will be required to achieve the Government’s commitment to make every possible effort to avoid redundancies in bodies affected by RPA and to safeguard the interests of staff and ensure their smooth transfer into new organisations.

Guiding principle

4. The Commission recommends that Government:

Requires all parties in the employment relationship to comply with relevant human rights and employment rights legislation, taking into account relevant Codes of Practice and to be committed to establishing, developing and maintaining a public sector culture that recognises, incorporates and works to meet the legitimate interests of all parties.

Associated Recommendations

5. The Commission recommends that:

All parties take an inclusive and strategic approach to Employment Relations thereby maximising collaborative and joint working;
Employers and Trade Unions ensure there are appropriate, robust mechanisms and structures in place to facilitate effective Employment Relations at both central and local levels;
Employers, in consultation with recognised trade unions, develop, implement, monitor and evaluate good practice employment policies and procedures;
Employers and Trade Union Side commit to the use of alternative dispute resolution processes for the handling of individual and collective disputes, and
All parties refer to the services of the Labour Relations Agency for information, advice and guidance on good employment practice, as and when necessary. Although not designed specifically for the public sector, the ACAS booklet on “The Model Workplace” might provide useful indicators of effective Employment Relations.

Commentary

6. The Commission stresses the significance of good Employment Relations to the delivery of value for money public services across the sectors. The Commission acknowledges the corporate and individual responsibility required to develop and embed a workplace culture derived from and nurtured on respect, trust and fairness.

7. The Commission recognises that employers and employees must assume a shared responsibility for successful Employment Relations, but acknowledges that the onus is on the employer to provide the mechanisms and structures for the relationship to develop.

Sid McDowell

Chairman
Public Service Commission

xx xx 2007

Share the Vision

Share the Vision 01.psd

Share the Vision 02.psd

Share the Vision 03.psd

Lisburn City Council

Belfast City Council

Submission of written evidence with respect to the Libraries Bill

Background – Belfast City Council

Belfast City Council is the largest of the 26 councils in Northern Ireland. We are responsible for providing and delivering an extensive range of services which play a key role in improving the quality of life of our citizens by helping to make Belfast a better place to live in, work in and visit.

Belfast City Council has reviewed the Libraries Bill and wishes to make the following comments with respect to its context and content.

Key points

1. Belfast City Council feels that the Libraries Bill should not proceed until the results of the review of the local government aspects of the Review of Public Administration are known.

1.1 The Council would stress that the Libraries Bill cannot be considered as a stand-alone document but that it must be placed within the broader context of the on-going review of public administration and its commitment to modern, customer-focused service delivery at the local level. In July, the Environment Minister announced a review of the previous administration’s decisions in respect of the RPA for local government. A number of aspects of this review are potentially significant in terms of the Libraries Bill, in particular the issue of transfer of functions. The Departments Newsletter “Local Government Reform – Keeping you Informed” states that whilst the review currently underway will, in the first instance, focus on those services agreed for transfer to local government by the last administration, the Executive may bring other functions to the table to be considered for transfer.

1.2 In view of the fact that the libraries service was one that had been proposed for transfer to local government for reasons of creating more coherent, integrated, local service delivery it would seem misguided to pre-empt the important discussion that will take place in the months ahead with a Bill that makes no reference to the integration of services locally which is a key thrust of the local government modernising agenda, nor to any potential power of community planning or well-being that a local authority may have as a result of the on-going review.

1.3 This sense of undue haste with respect to the Bill is compounded by the fact that the RPA implementation timetable with respect to the future of the Education and Library Boards also appears to be slowing down with the announcement by the Education Minister on 19th July that the introduction of the Education and Skills Authority was being delayed until 2009. The Council believes that the effective progress of a Libraries Bill can only be taken forward in the context of all the issues emerging from the RPA review process as these pertain to education, youth provision, cultural activities and local service and information provision, since these are focused on many of the same social outcomes as those that should be the focus of the library service.

2. The Council believes that libraries are important community hubs that have played a significant role in the modernising of local government services in other areas. They will be a significant part of any future community planning process.

2.1 The Bill does not make clear how the work of the Single Library Authority for Northern Ireland will lead to increased integration of service delivery and a greater level of inter-organisation co-operation at a local level. This is of particular concern at a time when the local government agenda in other areas is focused upon supporting the creation of sustainable communities through the fullest exploitation of integrated service delivery at a local level and making the fullest use of local public assets, such as libraries, to this end. We would anticipate that the development of a vision for local government, which is one strand of the Environment Minister’s review process, will explore this issue and that therefore the Bill should not proceed until these deliberations have taken place so that it has a better chance of delivering enhanced outcomes for local people.

2.2 In its response to the RPA Further Consultation Document in September 2005, Belfast City Council stated that it believed that it was essential, when thinking about the future of the public library service, to agree what role we expect the libraries of tomorrow to perform. The Council is committed to the view that successful libraries are not simply about a formal academic understanding of education; they are also about improving quality of life through the provision of a combination of educational, social, cultural, health and general information opportunities for local people. As such they are potentially invaluable as a means of delivering the social outcomes that will be set as part of any community planning process. In Belfast the opportunities for libraries to offer a safe and neutral environment for people from all sections of the community is also an important consideration. The Council believes that the Bill, as it currently stands, is not an adequate reflection of this potential.

2.3 The Council would re-iterate the point it has previously made that Library provision in other parts of the UK and in the Republic of Ireland is, in general, the responsibility of local councils. In its guidelines for the delivery of an inclusive public library service, the Department of Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) in Great Britain emphasised the essential link to community planning: “…so that the contribution of libraries to the broader priorities of local communities is identified and integrated with other service provision…”, the basis being that libraries only thrive when they play a clear role within local councils’ strategies promoting both learning and social cohesion. It is also argued that the library service in general is more likely to attract support if it can demonstrate its contribution to wider social objectives, and this is thought more likely if local councils are responsible for its delivery. The Council will return to this point as part of the review of the transfer of functions to local government which is currently underway.

2.4 Libraries must be community facilities and for this reason the Council continues to be steadfast in its belief that libraries should no longer be stand alone buildings but should be integrated with other public service facilities such as education and health for the ultimate benefit of the whole community. This new type of approach has already been pioneered by Belfast City Council, in conjunction with other statutory partner organisations, at the new Grove Well-Being Centre in North Belfast which will include the new Grove Library. There are also a number of best practice examples of libraries as fully integrated community facilities in Great Britain which are attached at Appendix A. These have helped to contribute to a 7.5% rise in visitor numbers to libraries according to research carried out by Chartered Institute of Public Finance & Accountancy (CIPFA). However there is no provision for this type of ‘community hub’ facility in the Libraries Bill.

2.5 The Department of Communities and Local Government in its recent working paper “Developing the Local Government Services Market – new ways of working within the public library service”, has again underlined the centrality of the library service to the achievement of the strategic outcomes which modern local authorities are seeking to achieve for communities.

3. In summary Belfast City Council would recommend that the passage of the Libraries Bill should be delayed until the results of the review of the local government aspects of the Review of Public Administration are known.

Appendix A – Best Practice in
Integrated Library Provision

Providing a ‘Community Hub’

The Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames has recently opened a brand new community facility on the site of their old library and community centre. Following extensive consultation with the local community on their aspirations for the new facility, the Rook Centre now not only provides a new public library but also an IT learning suite, a music recording studio, a community hall, a Citizens Advice Centre, crèche & café facilities, office space and meeting rooms which can be used for a variety of events. Since opening in January 2007 membership at the facility has more than doubled.

Discovery Centres

Hampshire County Council recently embarked on a programme of transforming and relaunching their libraries as ‘Discovery Centres’ which provide customers with an extended range of services and facilities beyond the traditional lending of books. The Council’s first Discovery Centre opened in Gosport and has transformed services in the town. Spread out over 4 floors the Discovery Centre has a café for customers, areas to read and relax, special areas for children and young people, meeting rooms, an IT training suite, free Internet facilities and space for regular dance, music, theatre and local events. The Centre also incorporates the Gosport Museum which has helped to bring heritage and museum services to a wider audience. The opening of the Centre has helped to increase visitor numbers by over 59% since 2003 (when the buildings were a separate museum and library).

Hampshire County Council has also worked closely with Winchester City Council on the opening of a new ‘Discovery Centre’ in the town. This new centre, which is due to open in this Autumn, will form part of the new ‘cultural quarter’ of Winchester. The Discovery Centre itself will have a performance space which can host a diverse programme of events and a gallery will host a wide range of art and heritage exhibitions. More information on Discovery Centres can be found at www.discoverycentres.co.uk

The IDEA Stores

The London Borough of Tower Hamlets embarked on a radical overhaul of their library services after discovering that only 15% of residents were regular library users. After carrying out the largest consultation exercise the Council had ever undertaken with it residents the Council launched its first ‘Idea Store’ at Bow in East London in 2002. The concept was that it was to be more than just a traditional library or place of learning and would offer a range of additional facilities including cafes, crèches, meeting areas, education classes, training and computer/internet facilities.

The concept was extremely successful and the launch of the first store at Bow helped to treble visitor numbers to the library while the number of book issues rose by 65%. The Council has now opened a further 3 ‘Stores’ across its borough each of which are in extremely accessible locations. All the stores are open 7 days a week with extended opening hours on week nights.

Plans for a further 3 Idea Stores across the Borough are well advanced. Further information can be found at – www.ideastores.co.uk

Integrated Services – Citycard Scheme

In April this year, Nottingham City Council expanded its already successful Citycard scheme. Originally the Citycard – a combined travel pass, leisure centre membership card, library card and discount card – was limited to older people and those with disabilities.

However it was expanded to include all Nottingham residents and over 120,000 personalised cards were mailed to all those aged between 18-59. The Citycard allows residents to top up their card to use the city’s bus services, use any of the Council’s leisure facilities at a 10% discounted rate and take full advantage of the range of facilities in the city’s 20 libraries. The Council has stated that the number of people using their library facilities has ‘soared’ since the introduction of the Citycard.

Appendix 4

Written Evidence and other Correspondence considered by the Committee

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
21 September 2007

Response re sub regional structure 1.psd

Response re sub regional structure 2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
24 September 2007

Response re efficiency Savings 1.psd

Response re efficiency Savings 2.psd

Correspondence from DCAL
8 October 2007

From: Julie Mapstone

Date: 8 October 2007

To: 1. Michelle Estler
2. Linda Davison
cc Colin Somerville

Libraries Bill: Committee Session with DCAL, 4 October

1. At the Committee session on 4 October, I agreed to go back to the Committee with some further clarification.

Charges for library services

2. The Libraries Bill is designed to reflect current practice in relation to charging for library services, not change it. The intention in the drafting was to simplify this aspect of the current legislation (Article 77 of the Education and Libraries (NI) Order 1986).

3. The reference in Clause 6 (2) to different charges in relation to different persons, circumstances or localities reflects current practice. It includes the ability to make concessions for senior citizens or children in relation to fines levied for late returns. In respect of the reference to locality, some public libraries have rooms which are let to the community for meetings or events. Charges may differ depending on the size of the room, the demand in a particular area, and whether the user is from a commercial or voluntary body.

Linen Hall Library

4. The Committee asked about the status of the Linen Hall Library in relation to partnerships with the Library Authority. Clause 2 (3) of the Bill as drafted gives the Library Authority power to co-operate with other bodies and develop partnership arrangements. This would include the Linen Hall Library. For information, the Linen Hall Library is a private subscription library which operates under a scheme framed under the Educational Endowments (Ireland) Act 1885.

5 Clause 8 gives the Department the power to continue paying grant for library services provided outside the Library Authority. This would cover the Linen Hall Library.

‘Comprehensive and Efficient’ library service

6. Clause 2 (2) is intended to strengthen the statutory duty placed on the Authority by defining the range of its core responsibility: provision of “. library materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children”. This is more specific than the term “comprehensive”, which is open to different interpretations.

7. It was considered inappropriate to legislate for efficiency. The service will be measured via the standards set out in Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries and through additional targets which may be set from time to time, and by the use made of public funds. Accountability in the first instance is to the Minister, and through him to the Assembly.

Reference Collections

8. With respect to the collections held by some public libraries, there is a need to set the collection of materials relating to one subject or region in the context of the requirement set out at Clause 2 (2) for the Library Authority to make available “library materials sufficient in number, range and quality to meet the general requirements of adults and children”. This includes materials for lending and for reference purposes to facilitate research and study. It would be for the judgement of the senior library staff how collections should be developed, bearing in mind the library budget.

9. As the Committee pointed out, there is no national library in Northern Ireland. However, the Northern Ireland Publications Resource (NIPR) has established a non-statutory national bibliography for Northern Ireland by collecting all locally published material since 2000, including books, government publications, journals, community magazines and newsletters. NIPR is sponsored by the Library & Information Services Council (Northern Ireland) with financial support from the British Library’s Co-operation & Partnership Programme, and from DCAL. NIPR is based at the Linen Hall Library and Belfast Central Library.

Deloitte Report

10. We agreed to give the Committee a synopsis of the recommendations from the Deloitte Report. This will follow.

Julie Mapstone

Correspondence from
Chief Executive Designate of NILA
9 October 2007

Correspondence from WELB
9 October 2007

Linda Gregg Our Ref: BM/AM
Clerk
Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure
Room 424 Parliament Buildings
Stormont
BELFAST
BT4 3XX Date: 9 October 2007

Dear Ms Gregg

Thank you for your letter on behalf of the CAL Committee dated 28 September 2007 about the start up costs for NILA.

As you will appreciate it is very difficult to estimate these costs without knowing a great deal more than is currently known about how NILA will operate, in particular what the staffing structure will be and what will be required by way of premises which links to the sub-regional dimension. Because of this WELB is only in a position to comment on two areas of cost. I understand that other Boards which have had recent experience in a particular area e.g. replacement signage or liveries will provide figures based on this experience. I hope therefore that the CAL Committee will be able to at least begin to build a composite picture of the costs involved. I would stress, however, that any estimates at this stage are very approximate because of all the unknowns, and that only NILA or DCAL is in a position to provide even indicative costs in some areas.

WELB considers any ‘one off’ or ‘time bound’ costs to be start-up costs which would include the following:

Staffing Costs

Salaries and associated costs for the four posts currently filled in NILAIT;
Salaries and associated costs for the finance post currently being trawled for NILAIT;
Salaries and associated costs for any other posts recruited to NILAIT in advance of the creation of NILA e.g. any senior management team members;
Redundancy costs associated with the implementation of a new structure;
Recruitment costs associated with the implementation of a new structure;
Relocation costs associated with the implementation of a new structure including disturbance allowance for four years.

Premises Costs

Set up costs of NILAIT’s temporary premises e.g. furniture, fittings, installation of ICT and phones;
Running costs of NILAIT’s temporary premises;
Set-up costs of Library Headquarters;
Set-up costs of any sub-regional premises.

ICT

Any initial costs of new systems e.g. Finance, HR;
Set-up costs as above;
Improvements to the ni-libraries network to facilitate regional work e.g. improved videoconferencing systems.

Consultancy

Presumably this will be required to provide expertise in a number of areas.
Establishing the identity of the new authority
Replacing logo etc on 113 branch libraries;
Replacing logo etc on 30+ vehicles;
New uniforms for mobile drivers, caretakers etc;
New stationery.

Activities to unite staff and to help them identify with the new authority

In the early days of NILA it will be necessary to do more training and to bring staff together for more meetings and events than will be the case later on.

The Committee will be aware that the Deloitte Report indicates start-up costs of 965K in respect of support services which may well be an understatement.

Another major area of initial cost will be redundancies in order to produce a streamlined structure. It is impossible to cost these without knowing the structure and who would be made redundant and on what basis. However, to give some indication, the cost of releasing one Chief Librarian under the 104 week scheme would be at least £120K. The costs using the other method require specific input from NILGOSC taking account of age, length of service and pensionable pay.

I hope that this information will be of assistance to the Committee.

Yours sincerely

Barry Mulholland Sig.ai

Barry Mulholland

Chief Executive

Correspondence from NEELB
10 October 2007

NEELB Logo [Black].ai

Ms Linda Gregg
Clerk
Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure
Room 424 Parliament Buildings
Stormont
Belfast
BT4 3XX

10 October 2007

Dear Ms Gregg

Thank you for your letter dated 28 September on behalf of the CAL Committee about the start up costs for Northern Ireland Library Authority.

As we stated to the Committee, the North Eastern Education and Library Board believes that the figure, for start up costs, quoted in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum for the Bill, is insufficient. However this would be easier to determine if a breakdown of the costs, under separate headings, had been supplied.

The Board is unclear about how the NILA will operate and what form the sub regional dimension will take, neither have we clarity about structure. However, as requested we are prepared to submit estimated costings for the areas which we believe need to be included in the start up costs.

These costs have been calculated on the basis of the information available to us at this time.

We note that the Deloitte Report indicates start up costs of £965k in respect of support services and this will also need to be taken into consideration as part of the overall start up costs.

We trust that this information will be of use to the Committee.

Yours sincerely

Anne Connolly

Director of Library and Corporate Services

In estimating these costs the following assumptions have been made:

(a) Set-up costs = Those costs incurred prior to the five library services being merged into NILA

(b) Date of merger is April 1st 2008. Beyond that date set-up costs will rise as the run-in period increases

(d) Includes costs already incurred

(e) Excludes consultants costs other than initial workshop planned for November

Item	£
Salaries of NILA team* (Includes CE Designate, seconded staff from Board and DCAL)	150,000
ELB staff costs** (Costs which may be apportioned to NILA as a consequence of senior library staff working on setting up NILA)	100,000
Training of library staff** (Major events, re-organisation seminars)	150,000
Marketing (Publicity campaign)	50,000
Redundancy*** (Necessitated by removal of 5 statutory Chief Librarians posts)	750,000
Sub Total	£1,200,000
Temporary HQ Costs
Rental (based on £30,000 pa)	£22,500
Cost of cabling and broadband	£52,000
Initial furniture and equipment costs	£10,000
Sub total	£84,500
Consultancy Costs
Company employed to design workshops around new structures
Sub total	£3,300
Establishing identity for new Authority
Establishing new identity Staff Uniforms	£135,000
Cost of transferring five different liveries to one single livery – Mobile library vehicles (28 vehicles at £2,500 per vehicle)	£70,000
Cost of transferring 17 different liveries to one single library – Delivery vans (17 vehicles at £1,650 per vehicle)	£28,050
Sub total	£233,050
Total	£1,520,850

* From September 2007 – March 2008
** Costs which may be incurred by ELB’s and charged to DCAL
*** Further redundancies are likely to arise as a result of a new structure

Correspondence from SEELB
11 October 2007

SEELB.psd

Our Ref: SGS/ht

Linda Gregg
Clerk
Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure
Room 424 Parliament Buildings
Stormont
BELFAST
BT4 3XX

Date: 11 October 2007

Dear Ms Gregg

Thank you for your letter on behalf of the CAL Committee dated 28 September 2007 about the start up costs for NILA.

The SEELB appreciates being offered the opportunity to provide estimates for the start up costs but realises that this is currently very difficult given that we do not know what the structures and functionality including the staffing structures of the Northern Ireland Library Authority (NILA) will be. At the moment we believe that only NILA or DCAL could give even indicative costs.

SEELB considers any ‘one off’ or ‘time bound’ costs to be start-up costs which would include the following:

Staffing Costs

Salaries and associated costs for the four posts currently filled in NILAIT
Salaries and associated costs for the finance post currently being trawled for NILAIT
Salaries and associated costs for any other posts recruited to NILAIT in advance of the creation of NILA e.g. any senior management team members
Redundancy costs associated with the implementation of a new structure
Recruitment costs associated with the implementation of a new structure
Relocation costs associated with the implementation of a new structure including disturbance allowances for a period of 4 years

Premises Costs

Set up costs of NILAIT’s temporary premises e.g. rent, legal costs, furniture, fittings, installation of ICT and phones
Operating costs of NILAIT’s temporary premises
Set-up costs of a new Library Headquarters
Decommissioning costs for redundant Library Headquarter buildings including costs to properly maintain an empty building until sold
Set-up costs of any sub-regional premises

Sub - regional structures

Cost of setting up formal structures to link with education, health etc

ICT

Any initial costs of new systems e.g. Finance, HR
Potential costs to change/amend the PFI ICT contract
Set-up costs as above
Improvements to the ni-libraries network to facilitate regional work e.g. improved videoconferencing systems

Consultancy

To facilitate developments in NILA and provide expertise in a range of areas

Branding

Replacing logo etc on 113 branch libraries
Replacing logo etc on X vehicles
New uniforms for X staff
New stationery

Activities to unite staff and to help them identify with the new authority

In the early days of NILA it will be necessary to do more training and to bring staff together for more meetings and events than will be the case later on
Harmonisation and implementation of 5 policies and procedures
Training

The SEELB would welcome the opportunity to further input into this discussion when details of the new structure and functionality of NILA is publicised.

Yours sincerely

SG Sloan.ai

S G Sloan

Chief Executive

Correspondence from SELB
11 October 2007

SELB Logo (Black).ai

Chief Executive
3 Charlemont Place
The Mall
Armagh
BT61 9AX
Tel: 028 3751 2200
Email: selb.hq@selb.org
Website: www.selb.org

Ms L Gregg
Clerk
Committee for Culture, Arts & Leisure
Room 424
Parliament Buildings
Stormont
BELFAST BT4 3XX

1/1594

11 October 2007

Dear Ms Gregg

The Chairperson has passed to me your letter of 28 September 2007 in which you seek an estimation of start-up costs of the Northern Ireland Library Authority.

I have had opportunity to see the response from my colleague, Barry Mulholland of the Western Education & Library Board.

I concur with his identification of activities requiring resources.

In addition, there will be the costs incurred by the Board of the Library Authority ie attendance allowances, training costs and travelling expenses.

Yours sincerely

H McClenaghan (Mrs)
Chief Executive

Tel: 028 37 512227
Fax: 028 37 512535
E-Mail: helen.mcclenaghan@selb.org

HMcC/JC

Correspondence from NIPSA

Dear Linda

Your letter of 28 September 2007 refers.

First of all may I apologise for the delay in responding, but this was partially due to the fact that I was awaiting information from Departmental Officials.

I had queried how the Department had arrived at the £670,000 figure, but despite a request for further information I have been advised that no further information is available other than it is ‘start up costs’ estimated for staff salaries, office accommodation etc. A breakdown of the £200k budget for consultancy has been provided as follows:-

Name of Consultants	Date of Engagement	Title of Work/Project	Cost (incl VAT)
Deloitte	April 07	Investigation of options for corporate services to the Library Authority	Total cost £51,000
Beeches	Mar 07	To provide training on competence based interviewing	£990
Capita	Mar 07	Running of recruitment competition for Chief Executive Designate to the Library Authority	£4,500
CILIP	Mar 07	Expenses for member of interview panel for recruitment of CE(D)	£530
Kentwood Associates	Sept 07	To assist with organisational design for Library Authority	£3,300

NIPSA is further advised that £140,00 remains unallocated in the consultancy budget for 2007-08. In addition a further piece of consultancy work to draw up a statement of user requirements for finance and accounting systems is being prepared for tender.

NIPSA remains concerned of the significant amount of financial resources which is being paid to consultants, some of which we believe could be provided from within DCAL or the wider NICS.

Yours sincerely

Alison Millar
Assistant Secretary

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
12 October 2007

Response re savings and business plan 1.psd

Response re savings and business plan 2.psd

Correspondence from
Belfast Education and Library Board
15 October 2007

DC/KMcC

15 October 2007

Ms Linda Gregg
Clerk
Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure
Room 424
Parliament Buildings
Stormont
BELFAST BT4 3XX

Dear Ms Gregg

Thank you for your letter on behalf of the CAL Committee dated 28 September 2007 about the start up costs for NILA.

As you will appreciate it is very difficult to estimate these costs without knowing a great deal more than is currently known about how NILA will operate, in particular what the staffing structure will be and what will be required by way of premises which links to the sub-regional dimension. Because of this BELB is only in a position to comment on 2 areas of cost. I understand that other boards, which have had recent experience in a particular area, will provide figures based on this experience. I hope therefore that the CAL Committee will be able to at least begin to build a composite picture of the costs involved. I would stress, however, that any estimates at this stage are very approximate because of all the unknowns, and that only NILA or DCAL is in a position to provide even indicative costs in some areas.

BELB considers any ‘one off’’ or ‘time bound’ costs to be start-up costs which would include the following:

Staffing Costs

Salaries and associated costs for the 4 posts currently filled in NILAIT.
Salaries and associated costs for the finance post currently being trawled for NILAIT.
Salaries and associated costs for any other posts recruited to NILAIT in advance of the creation of NILA eg any senior management team members.
Redundancy costs associated with the implementation of a new structure.
Recruitment costs associated with the implementation of a new structure.
Relocation costs associated with the implementation of a new structure including disturbance allowance for 4 years.

This is the cost of the additional journey from home to the new base for 4 years. For example a sample of 20 staff re-locating to work in Lisburn from Belfast (10 miles) would cost approximately £202,000. This would be replicated across the 5 boards.

15 October 2007

Ms Linda Gregg

Premises Costs

Set up costs of NILAIT’s temporary premises eg furniture, fittings, installation of ICT and phones.
Running costs of NILAIT’s temporary premises.
Set-up costs of Library Headquarters.
Set-up costs of any sub-regional premises.

ICT

Any initial costs of new systems eg finance, HR.
Set-up costs as above.
Improvements to the ni-libraries network to facilitate regional work eg improved videoconferencing systems.

Consultancy

This will be required to provide expertise in a number of areas. Consultants have already been appointed to look at the staffing structure of the new authority.

Establishing the Identity of the New Authority

Replacing logo etc on 113 branch libraries- approx £245,000.
Replacing logo etc on 30+ vehicles- approx £95,000.
New uniforms for mobile drivers, caretakers etc.
New stationery.
Marketing campaign.

Activities to Unite Staff and to Help them Identify with the New Authority

In the early days of NILA it will be necessary to do more training and to bring staff together for more meetings and events than will be the case later on.

The committee will be aware that the Deloitte Report indicates start-up costs of 965K in respect of support services which may well be an understatement.

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
16 October 2007

Response on start up costs and savings after 4 Oct 1.psd

Response on start up costs and savings after 4 Oct 2.psd

Correspondence from
Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
16 October 2007

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
25 October 2007

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 1.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 2.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 3.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 4.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 5.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 6.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 7.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 8.psd

Response re start up cost and Deliotte report 9.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
29 October 2007

Letter to CAL Committee 1.psd

Letter to CAL Committee 2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
1 November 2007

Response re rewording of Clause 6 1.psd

Response re rewording of Clause 6 2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
16 November 2007

Response from Minister 16 Nov 0001.psd

Response from Minister 16 Nov 0002.psd

Response from Minister 16 Nov 0003.psd

Response from Minister 16 Nov 0004.psd

Response from Minister 16 Nov 0005.psd

Response from Minister 16 Nov 0006.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
20 November 2007

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
20 November 2007

Response corporate services-1.psd

Response corporate services-2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
20 November 2007

Response library staff-1.psd

Response library staff-2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
27 November 2007

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
27 November 2007

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
3 December 2007

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
10 December 2007

Response possible redundancies-1.psd

Response possible redundancies-2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
19 December 2007

Response re bid for redundancy funding.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
20 December 2007

Response re Sch 1 (2) and Sch 2-1_Page 1.psd

Response re Sch 1 (2) and Sch 2-1_Page 2.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
14 January 2008

DCAL AMENDMENTS-1.psd

DCAL AMENDMENTS-2.psd

DCAL AMENDMENTS-3.psd

DCAL AMENDMENTS-4.psd

Correspondence from NIPSA
15 January 2008

clerk letter-1.psd

clerk letter-2.psd

Northern Ireland Library Authority:
Proposed Organizational Structure

Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee, 17 January 2008

1. Introduction

1.1. Work has been underway over the last couple of months to develop an organizational structure for the proposed Northern Ireland Library Authority. The process has been an iterative one, involving workshops with Chief Librarians and Assistant Chief Librarians, discussion with officials from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL), meetings with Library Committees and the Chief Executives of Education and Library Boards as well as well as informal consultation with staff representatives. Assistance has been provided by Kentwood Associates who have extensive experience in working with public library services throughout the United Kingdom and further afield on similar exercises.

1.2. The proposals contained in this paper have been discussed with the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure who has indicated broad agreement. Before final decisions are made, the proposed structure will be subject to formal consultation.

2. Key Principles

2.1 A number of key principles underpin the approach that I have taken to the organizational design, namely:

the Northern Ireland Library Authority will be regionally led, but locally delivered and must be responsive to identified community needs.
structures must facilitate equitable provision across Northern Ireland, but allow also for targeted action to address priority issues within local communities.
structures must facilitate the sharing of good practice and also encourage innovation and creativity in response to new demands and local needs.
the development of strategic partnerships with other providers of services will be critical to the delivery of the key business objectives for the public library service
there must be a means of local engagement with other providers in an area to ensure a “joined up” approach to services.
the structure must be capable of evolution to enable it to adapt to changes in business priorities as well as structural changes that might result from the Local Government review.
the structure should facilitate staff development and provide opportunities for career progression
it must be cost-effective and efficient.

3. Methodology

3.1 The approach to the development of a proposed organizational structure has been to see the Northern Ireland Library Authority as a new entity, not as a merger of the current five services. It would be inappropriate, ineffective and inefficient to expand the structure of any of the existing services or to import a structure wholesale from another Authority. Nevertheless consideration has been given to practice elsewhere and to putting in place structures which would build on the good work that has been done by the Boards over many years to provide library services which are relevant to the needs of citizens.

3.2 An underlying premise of all organizational design is that form follows function work. Accordingly the first stage of the process has been to identify the key business areas, key activities and target groups for the Northern Ireland Library Authority. Thereafter consideration has been given to potential options that would facilitate the delivery of quality services that are citizen-focused, effective and efficient.

4. Key Business Areas

4.1 In determining key business areas consideration has been given to the draft Programme for Government, DCAL’s policy document (Delivering Tomorrow’s Libraries) and the work currently being undertaken by the 5 library services.

4.2 The proposed key business areas for the Northern Ireland Library Authority are:

Support for learning (0 – 19 years)
Support for learning (post 19 years)
Cultural and creative development, including access to information on our heritage
Social inclusion, community development and economic regeneration

5. Key Activities

5.1 The key activities are the means by which the library service will deliver the key business areas. The suggested key activities are:

Provision of wide ranging and up-to-date stock tailored to local need
Offering access to on-line resources
Promotion of reading and reader development
Providing quality information
Offering space to learn and acquire knowledge
Providing access to local, Ulster and Irish history
Enabling opportunities for cultural and creative experiences

6. Target Groups

6.1 While the library service exists to make available to all, free at point of use, books and information which provide opportunities for learning, knowledge and inspiration, it is the case that some members of the community will require more support and encouragement than others to take advantage of the services offered by libraries. It is envisaged that the target groups will be:

children
young adults
elderly people
people with social, physical, educational or health disadvantages
members of ethnic minority communities.

7. Local Engagement

7.1 It is crucial for the Northern Ireland Library Authority, as a regionally led service, to have mechanisms in place for local engagement and to ensure that services reflect local needs. It is proposed that the Library Authority will address this requirement in two ways:

i. The organizational structure will provide for managers with responsibility for services in a particular area to be located in the area that they serve. These managers will report directly to a second tier officer and will be held responsible for the service in that area. A key aspect of their job will be liaison and collaboration with other statutory, voluntary and community organizations in the area to ensure that the library service is contributing effectively to locally produced plans to address needs.

ii In due course it is envisaged that the Northern Ireland Library Authority will play an active role in the community planning process. In the meantime, however, it is considered essential that formal mechanisms are in place to enable people locally to participate in planning the work of the library service and to influence strategy and policy in order that they take account of local priorities. Accordingly it is proposed that formal consultative groups will be established in each area. The local councils and other statutory agencies such as education and health will be asked to nominate representatives to sit on the local consultative group. The group will also comprise users of the library service and representatives of community and voluntary organizations in the area. The consultative groups will have a key role to play in a range of matters, including:

identifying initiatives that would be beneficial to the community that might be delivered through the library service
considering how strategic partnerships might be rolled out at local level to address issues relevant to that community
ensuring that the Northern Ireland Library Authority Board is made aware of local priorities that will need to be taken into account in the development of its policies and strategies
feedback on Northern Ireland Library Authority policies and strategies
promoting the library at local level, encouraging public use and lobbying on its behalf
to plan future activities.

8. Service Delivery Model

8.1 The Senior Management Team will comprise the Chief Executive and 3 Directors. The key strategic duties of the Chief Executive and each Director are shown in Appendix 1.

8.2 At third tier level there will be 4 Area Managers, each located in a geographic region with responsibility for management of services in that area as well as leading a team in developing a Key Business Area on a regional basis. The Area Managers, meeting together with the Senior Management Team will comprise a Planning and Performance Team.

8.3 Within each Area there will be an Operations Manager, responsible for the day-to day running of services in the Area. The Operations Manager will report to the Area Manager.

8.4 Within each Area there will be Group Managers, reporting to the Operations Manager. Each Group Manager will be responsible for the operation of a major library, the branches in the surrounding hinterland and any associated mobile library services. Group Managers will also be members of the teams developing Key Business Areas.

8.5 Within each Area there will be a number of specialist posts e.g. children’s services, local studies, special services. The postholders will report to the Area Manager.

8.6 Each library will have a Branch Manager, responsible for the operation of that library and the management of the staff working there. Branch Managers (and some of their staff) may also be members of the specialist teams responsible for developing Key Business Areas.

8.7 The structure below Branch Manager level will depend on the size of the branch.

8.8 A skeleton organizational structure framework is reproduced diagrammatically at Appendix 2.

9. Estimated Cost of Senior Posts

9.1 It is envisaged that the posts at Director level will be graded at the same level as the current second tier officers in the Education and Library Boards (Chief Librarian level).

9.2 The existing collective agreement relating to job evaluation of Education and Library Board staff will apply to the Area Manager posts in order to determine the appropriate grade.

9.3 It is envisaged that existing job descriptions and grades will be adequate for all other posts.

9.4 Based on the mid-point of current NJC scales and current levels of employer’s contributions to National Insurance and Superannuation, comparative costs of current senior structures and the proposed senior structure are shown in the tables below.

Current Management Structure

Post	Salary £	Employer’s costs £	Total £
Chief Librarian x 5	335,700	77,785	413,485
Assistant Chief Librarian x 7	311,628	49,315	360,943
Total	647,328	127,100	774,428

NB: the above figures exclude:

i. The cost of the percentage of current Chief Executives’ time associated with overall management of Library Services as this is not separately identified;

ii. Any charge made to the DE budget for work undertaken by Chief Librarians in respect of School Library Services and other DE funded service;

iii. Costs associated with the provision of corporate services (e.g. Finance, Human Resources, Estate Management etc) as these are not currently separately identified (c.f. Deloitte Report on Options for Financial Systems and Corporate Services).

Proposed Management Structure

Post	Salary £	Employer’s costs £	Total £
Strategic Management Team	318,633	59,863	378,496
Area Managers x 4	188,622	42,440	231,062
Total	507,255	102,303	609,558

10. Implementation

10.1 Given existing staffing levels and responsibilities it is unlikely that the proposed structure will be implemented in its entirety from the start of the new Authority. Nor should it be regarded as a permanent structure. The proposals contained in this paper are evolutionary and the structure must be flexible in order to meet changing priorities and local needs as they are identified.

10.2 Given that the pool from which the posts in the proposed structure will be recruited are current staff in the library service and there are likely to be implications for current staff, a process of formal consultation with staff and trades unions must be implemented before structures can be finalized. Thereafter detailed job descriptions will be drafted and relevant competences identified to be used in the recruitment process.

10.3 It would be important that the Board of the new Library Authority is involved in the process of making appointments at second tier level and below. It is envisaged that appointments to second tier would be made with representation from the proposed Shadow Board.

10.4 Depending on the outcome of the recruitment process for senior posts there may be redundancy implications and /or the need to retain existing staff on a “personal to holder” basis pending natural wastage.

11. Conclusion

11.1 In my view, having consulted widely and taken advice from experts in the field of library service organizational design, the proposals contained in this paper will enable the new Library Authority to provide high-quality, citizen-focused services for the people of Northern Ireland based on key principles of regional leadership, local delivery and local engagement. I would welcome the Committee’s views on the proposals.

Irene Knox

Appendix 1:
Northern Ireland Library Authority:
Proposed Organisational Structure –
Strategic Management Team

Chief Executive

Responsible for:

Leadership of the Northern Ireland Library Authority
Strategic and organisational development
Efficient and effective deployment of resources
Financial management, governance and accountability
Advice and guidance to the Board of the Northern Ireland Library Authority

Director of Service Development

Responsible for:

Support for learning (0 – 19 years)
Support for learning (post 19 years)
Cultural and creative development
Social inclusion , community development and economic regeneration

Director of Service Delivery

Responsible for:

Service delivery in individual communities
Development of local partnerships and processes for local engagement
Development of services to target groups
Research, quality and performance measurement / monitoring

Director of Business Support

Responsible for:

Financial management
Human Resource Services
Contracts and facilities management
Bibliographical services
Marketing and income generation

Appendix 2:
Northern Ireland Library Authority: Framework Organisational Chart

Chief Executive

Director of Business Support

Director of Service Delivery

Director of Service Development

Financial management
Human Resource Services
Contracts and facilities management
Bibliographical services
Marketing and income generation

Area
Manager

Operations

Manager

Special Services Librarian

Local Studies Librarian

Children’s Librarian

Group Manager

Mobile Library

Branch Library Manager

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
23 January 2008

LIBRARIES BILL - Clause 2 - Duty to provide library services - SUB 36 - 2008 01.psd

LIBRARIES BILL - Clause 2 - Duty to provide library services - SUB 36 - 2008 02.psd

LIBRARIES BILL - Clause 2 - Duty to provide library services - SUB 36 - 2008 03.psd

LIBRARIES BILL - Clause 2 - Duty to provide library services - SUB 36 - 2008 04.psd

Correspondence from
Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
January 2008

Response from Minister re proposed redundancies.psd

Research and Library Services Paper
May 2007

NIA Logo (Black).ai

Briefing Note

Libraries Bill: the proposal for a Single Library Authority

1.0 Introduction

This note identifies the government’s proposals for the future of the library service which arose from the Review of Public Administration (RPA) and outlines government’s rationale for the final decision to establish a Single Library Authority. The note begins with some background information on the RPA and then outlines the three options for the library service which were proposed by the Review. The paper concludes with a summary of the government’s grounds for making its final decision.

2.0 Background

The Review of Public Administration was a comprehensive examination of public administration and was launched in June 2002 by the Northern Ireland Executive. It was taken forward by direct rule ministers during suspension of devolution.

Two public consultations on the RPA were carried out.

The first RPA consultation in 2003 established two key messages:

the desire for high-quality services accessible to all, and
strong local government.

(see section 3.0 for a discussion of the second RPA consultation)

The Review proposed a two tier model of public administration for Northern Ireland:

a regional tier would consist of the Assembly, government departments, and regional authorities. This tier’s function would be to focus on policy developments and setting standards, as well as delivering regional services.
a second tier, at sub-regional level, would encompass organisations that would operate preferably within the same boundaries as one another, and would include councils, health bodies, other sub-regional bodies and sub-regional delivery units of regional bodies.

The Review favoured delivery at the sub-regional tier; although it recognised that in some cases, factors such as economies of scale would necessitate delivery at the regional level. A set of proposals based on the new model of public administration were released in a second RPA consultation paper in March 2005. The final decisions of the RPA were announced by the Secretary of State in March 2006[1].

3.0 The Three Options for the Library Service

The second RPA consultation document (March 2005) proposed that a new education body would replace the five Education and Library Boards. Three options for the library service were then specified.

The three proposed options were:

3.1. Preserving the linkage between education and libraries.

This option specified that the linkage between education and libraries should be preserved in one institution. Libraries and education have been integrated since 1972, an arrangement, according to the Review which “has worked well”, and:

The aims of the library service, highlighting as they do personal development, lifelong development and access to information, are seen to be appropriately linked with education delivery. Many of those associated with the library service believe that, as the smaller junior partner, it has much to gain from the continuation of this integrated working arrangement.[2]

The Review’s consultation paper considers however, that the role of libraries is wider than school level educational provision, and identifies a range of other roles that libraries perform. Libraries, for example, can be an entry point into lifelong learning and an important resource for community activities and small business. The Review questioned the library services’ capacity to focus on its other roles if primarily concerned with school level education.

3.2. Local government control

Placing the library service within revised local government arrangements was another option proposed by the RPA. The Review considered the number of councils to be a key factor however, and recommended a 7 council model in preference to an 11 + council model, in order to prevent a fragmentation of the service - which could prove to be a “retrograde step”.

The RPA view was that local government control might reflect local community needs more effectively than a single authority. Local authority delivery, it was said, could also enhance the public libraries’ role as a neutral venue for community activities. However, it was also noted that local government delivery via 7 councils would provide less coherence than delivery from a single authority.

If placed under local government control, the Review speculated on the benefits of supplemental funding for the library service being drawn from local rates. If this was the case, the Review believed the extra funding could be used to help the library service better address local issues and needs.

3.3 Single Library Authority

The RPA also proposed the establishment of a Single Library Authority. The main advantages of this option were:

A single Authority could build on existing examples of successful ‘joined-up’ working at regional level across the five Boards.[3]
a single Authority would have clearer lines of responsibility and accountability
A single Authority would reflect more effectively the wider community role of the public library service
A single Authority could build on existing links within the education service
A single Authority could develop a wider range of links with other public, private and community organisations
A single Authority could support local libraries in their role as community information hubs

4.0 The RPA Decision for Libraries

In March 2006 the Secretary of State announced his decision on libraries. The option for the creation of a Single Library Authority was chosen. The rationale for the decision is briefly outlined in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum[4] which accompanies the draft Libraries Bill.

4.1 Preserving the linkage between education and libraries.

The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum states that this option was rejected because:

libraries have “cultural, recreational and community roles, as well as educational”[5] and
the library service would “benefit from a separate dedicated managing body”

4.2 Local government control

The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the draft Bill states that this option was rejected because:

it would fragment the service through increasing from 5 bodies to seven, and
it would break up an increasingly unified system where joint working has brought benefits[6]

In a presentation on the Libraries Bill to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure on 21 May 2007, DCAL officials reiterated the above points adding that the proposal for local government control:

would lose the value placed on equality of provision across Northern Ireland
would require the additional setting up of a regional body to take on joint functions and provide professional advice and guidance to Councils
would result in inefficiencies through duplication at management levels

4.3 Single Library Authority

The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum that accompanies the draft Bill indicates this option was selected because:

there already exists an increasingly unified system where joint working at regional level has brought benefits
the library service would benefit from a separate dedicated managing body
it will provide for efficiencies in the longer term

The DCAL presentation on the Libraries Bill to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure on 21 May 2007, added that that the single Authority would:

provide a clear central focus for the development and promotion of the service, and the establishment of partnerships for new service delivery.

It further states:

The creation of a single library service reflects the general objective of streamlining the management and delivery of public services, as well as the particular desire to build on the valuable developments toward joint working at regional level in the five existing library services during the last few years. The result is designed to provide a unified, seamless library service which delivers best practice equally across Northern Ireland.[7]

5.0 The Libraries Bill

The Libraries Bill is intended to provide for the establishment of the single Library Authority, giving effect to the Review of Public Administration.

The key provisions of the Bill are:

to create a Single Library Authority,
to remove the responsibility for the provision of library services from the education and library boards,
to provide for the creation of schemes to enable the transfer of assets, property, rights, liabilities and staff from within the library sector from the education and library boards to the Authority,
to require the Authority to provide a free public library service for persons living, working or studying in Northern Ireland.

Two public consultation exercises have taken place on the Bill’s proposals. The first ran between January and April 2007. Some revisions were made to the draft legislation as a consequence. A second consultation took place in June/July 2007.

The Libraries Bill was introduced into the Northern Ireland Assembly on Monday 11th June 2007 by the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure. The Assembly agreed the Second Stage of the Bill on 19th June 2007. The Libraries Bill is currently at Committee stage.

[1] Better Government for Northern Ireland: Final decisions of the Review of Public Administration. March 2006

http://www.rpani.gov.uk/bettergovernment_doc-_final_decisions.pdf

[2] The Review of Public Administration in NI: Further consultation. March 2005 page 58

[3] For instance, the Electronic Libraries Project (ELFNI) which links all libraries to one computer management system and to the internet.

[4] http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/legislation/primary/2007/niabill5_07efm.htm

[5] In a presentation on the Libraries Bill to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure on 21 May 2007, DCAL officials expanded on this point saying that:

“the potential customer base for libraries is all citizens – anyone and everyone, irrespective of age, education level or place of residence”

[6] The DCAL presentation expanded this point to read:

“break up an increasingly unified system where regional level working has brought benefits through joint stock purchase arrangements, and access to borrowing in any library”.

DCAL presentation to the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. 21 May 2007.

[7] DCAL presentation to the Committee for Culture, Arts & Leisure. 21 May 2007 paragraph 9

Research and Library Services Paper
September 2007

September 2007

The Libraries Bill

Jane Campbell
Research Officer

This paper is intended as a brief introduction to the Libraries Bill which is currently at Committee stage in the Northern Ireland Assembly. To facilitate Members’ consideration of the Bill, this paper provides background details about the current library service in Northern Ireland. This is followed by an explanation of the Bill, including its policy and legislative context and its key provisions. The paper finishes with a summary of the responses to the public consultation and potential issues for consideration.

Library Research Papers are compiled for the benefit of Members of The Assembly and their personal staff. Authors are available to discuss the contents of these papers with Members and their staff but cannot advise members of the general public.

Summary of key points

The Libraries Bill was introduced as a result of the Review of Public Administration (RPA). The RPA was a comprehensive examination of public administration and was launched by the Executive in June 2002. It was taken forward by direct rule ministers during the suspension of devolution which began in October of that year.

The RPA decision on libraries was announced in March 2006. The Review decided that a regional library Authority should be established to deliver the public library service in Northern Ireland. The Review proposed the disbandment of the five Education and Library Boards. It also recommended the transfer of education functions to a new Education and Skills Authority which would be established at the same time as the new Library Authority.

Two consultation exercises have taken place on the Bill’s proposals. The first ran between January and April 2007. Some revisions were made to the draft legislation as a consequence. A second consultation took place in June/July 2007.

The majority of respondents to the public consultations were in favour of the principle of a single Authority, though some objections were raised. The majority of comments on the Bill’s proposals were mainly in relation to equality and financial matters, the schools library service and staff Transfer Schemes.

Key provisions of the Bill.

It will create a regional library Authority,
remove the responsibility for the provision of library services from the education and library boards,
provide for the creation of schemes to enable the transfer of assets, property, rights, liabilities and staff from within the library sector from the education and library boards to the Authority,
require the Authority to provide a free public library service for persons living, working or studying in Northern Ireland.

Introduction 341

1.0 Background to the Bill

1.1 The current library service in Northern Ireland
1.1.1 Education and Library Boards
1.1.2 Northern Ireland Library facts and figures
1.1.3 Recent developments in relation to the delivery of library services

2.0 The Libraries Bill

2.1 Policy and Legislative context of the Bill
2.2 Public consultation findings
2.3 Key provisions of the Bill

3.0 Conclusions

3.1 Potential issues for discussion

Appendix A History of the Public Library Service

Introduction

The Libraries Bill [NIA Bill 5/07] (the Bill) was introduced into the Northern Ireland Assembly on Monday 11th June 2007 by the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure. The Assembly agreed the Second Stage of the Bill on 19th June 2007. This paper provides some background information on the public library service and the policy and legislative context of the Bill. The paper summarises the main findings of the public consultations on the Bill and outlines the key provision of the Bill. The paper ends with some overall conclusions and potential issues for discussion.

1.0 Background to the Bill

1.1 The Current Library Service in Northern Ireland

This section of the paper provides some background information on the public Library Service in NI and recent strategic developments of the service. Section 1.1.1 outlines the role of the education and library boards. Some facts and figures about the current public library service are presented at Section 1.1.2. Recent policy developments in relation to the delivery of the library service are outlined at Section 1.1.3.

1.1.1 Education and Library Boards

The Public Library Structure in Northern Ireland (NI) is currently composed of five area boards. Each Board is established under The Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1972 as the local authority responsible for:

the provision of primary and secondary education within its area
the provision of a youth service within its area
the provision of library services to schools and the public

Boards must also have regard for the need for pre-school education.

1.1.2 Northern Ireland Library Facts and Figures[1]:

There are currently 111 public libraries.
Almost half of the population (49%) are registered members of a library.
1.3 million people live within two miles of a public library.
There are two million books available to borrow free of charge.
Users have free access to 4 million catalogued items.
Users have free access to computers and internet facilities.
Over 1,100 computers are available over the 111 locations.
The Electronic Libraries project (ELFNI) provides a single ICT network and library management system across the whole of Northern Ireland. It allows all public library users to search a single catalogue and request any item no matter which library or Board it is housed in.

The Library Authorities within each of the Education and Library Board areas are located at the addresses in Table 1 below. The Public Library Service currently employs close to 1,000 staff. Of these, around 170[2] are employed on headquarter functions in library headquarter buildings across the five boards; the remainder are located in local branch libraries.

Table 1. Address of Library Authority H.Q.

Belfast Education and Library Board (BELB)	Central Library Royal Avenue Belfast BT1 1EA
Southern Education and Library Board (SELB)	Library Headquarters 1 Markethill Road Armagh BT60 1NR
North Eastern Education and Library Board (NEELB)	Area Library Demesne Avenue Ballymena BT43 7QB
Western Education and Library Board (WELB)	1 Spillers Place Omagh BT78 1HL
South Eastern Education and Library Board (SEELB)	Library Headquarters Windmill Hill Ballynahinch BT24 8DH

1.1.3 Recent Developments in Relation to the Delivery of Library Services

In 2001 the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure (DCAL) began a review of the library service.[3] Its aim was to create a new policy framework for the public library service. New guiding principles and priorities were put out for public consultation in October 2005,[4] and DCAL finalised its new library policy framework in July 2006 with Delivering Tomorrows Libraries[5]. This framework sets out DCAL’s overall vision for libraries, specifies plans and actions geared towards increasing the service’s focus on its customers and specifies a series of performance measures.

2.0 The Libraries Bill

This section of the paper focuses on the Libraries Bill. The policy and legislative context of the Bill is presented at Section 2.1. This is followed in Section 2.2 with a summary of the findings of the public consultations on the Bill. The key provisions of the Bill are specified at Section 2.3.

2.1 Policy and Legislative Context of the Bill

The Libraries Bill was introduced by DCAL as a direct result of the Review of Public Administration, (RPA)[6]. The RPA was a comprehensive examination of public administration and was launched by the Executive in June 2002. During the suspension of devolution which began in October of that year, it was taken forward by direct rule ministers.

The RPA decision on libraries was announced in March 2006 by the Secretary of State[7]. The Review decided that a single library Authority should be established to deliver the public library service. It proposed the disbandment of NI’s five Education and Library Boards. The Review further recommended the transfer of education functions to a new Education and Skills Authority[8] which would be established at the same time as the new Library Authority[9].

A draft Order in Council entitled The Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 2007 was drawn up by DCAL. A consultation on the draft Order was held between January and April 2007 and the legislation was revised as a result[10]. DCAL also carried out an equality screening exercise which concluded that a full Equality Impact Assessment (EQIA) in relation to the draft Order was not needed[11]. Following the return of devolution in May 2007 the draft Order was introduced in the Assembly on 11 June 2007[12].

On Tuesday 19th June 2007, at the Second Stage of the Bill, the Minister indicated his approval for the Bill, explaining its purpose:

The Bill will establish a single library service for the whole of Northern Ireland and will streamline the five existing library services, providing a unified seamless service that can ensure equity in delivery and transmission of best practice. The Bill will establish a non-departmental public body (NDPB) at a regional level to deliver that service — a library authority that will be led by a board comprising people who will be selected specifically for their ability to oversee a library service that meets modern needs.[13]

Thereafter Members debated the principles underpinning the Bill. Such debate echoed issues identified during DCAL’s public consultations on the draft Bill- see Section 2.2 below.

2.2 Public Consultation Findings

Two consultation exercises have taken place on the Bill’s proposals. The first followed the publication of the draft Libraries (NI) Order 2007 and ran between January and April 2007. It included meetings with a range of key stakeholders. DCAL received 24 written responses from library bodies and other interested persons and organisations, including trade unions. Some revisions were made to the draft legislation as a consequence, and a second consultation with key stakeholders took place in June/July 2007[14]. Some key issues stemming from the consultations are provided below.

2.2.1 Single centralised authority

The majority of consultees were in favour of the principle of a single Authority. Many of those in support felt it would reflect the RPA objective of streamlining the management and delivery of public service and build on existing joint working at regional level[15] in the five library services. Many thought that it would give the library service a higher public profile and that the quality and reach of the service and overall levels of library use would improve.

Some objections were raised to the proposal for a single Authority. Several respondents thought that library services should be a local government service. Others said that the creation of a ‘quango’ is an unsuitable and unnecessary arrangement for library provision. Referring to GB and Republic of Ireland models, some respondents considered that a single authority would be too large for NI’s 1.7 million population and would not be responsive to local and sub-regional needs.

2.2.2 Equality issues

Government departments are required to carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) to screen their policies for any adverse impact on equality of opportunity[16]. Having completed an initial equality screening exercise on the Libraries Bill DCAL concluded a full EQIA was unnecessary.

Several consultees disagreed with DCAL’s conclusion and maintained that the establishment of a ‘centralised’ library headquarters could have adverse equality impacts for current library headquarters staff. The location of jobs, according to one respondent, was important: “in the interest of fairness, the local economy and equality of opportunity”[17].

One of the Education and Library Boards expressed concern over the: “…uncertainty affecting staff who are anxious about their future…” and urged DCAL to take steps to provide: “…more clarity around the transfer process and the impact of appointments to the new body”[18]

It is also noteworthy that this issue arose during the Assembly’s Second Stage debate on the Bill:

I ask the Minister to consider carefully the location of the new library Authority. I am sure that he will consider all regions in Northern Ireland, including the north-west. Assembly debate on the Libraries Bill 19 June. Speech by Mr Pat Ramsey. http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/070619.htm[19]

The Bill makes no reference to the location of the new library Authority headquarters, except that:

“The headquarters of the Authority shall be at such place as the Department may approve.” (Schedule 2 15.1)

DCAL’s Equality Screening Report[20] on the draft Order, states that a central headquarters will be required in place of the current five library headquarters. It also states that “equality implications” would be considered as part of the decision making process on its location.

In reply to a recent Research and Library Service enquiry as to whether a full EQIA would be carried in relation to the future location of library headquarters, DCAL responded[21]:

We have now a Chief Executive (designate) in place for the Library Authority and one of the early issues that she will want to address is the organisational design including where various functions will be best located. This, and an equality impact assessment, will inform decisions on location.

2.2.3 Regulatory Impact Assessment

A Regulatory Impact Assessment (RIA), another statutory requirement, is intended to identify the likely impact of a proposed policy on the economy, firms and workers. DCAL stated that a RIA was not required in relation to the draft Libraries Bill. This was because, “The policy decision to create a single library authority of itself has no impact on local business”[22].

2.2.4 Schools library service

The RPA decided that the schools library service should separate from the mainstream library service and become the responsibility of the Department of Education. The Libraries Bill therefore makes no reference to the schools library service, a fact which was commented on by many respondents. In the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum[23] to the Bill DCAL explains that the separation from education is because:

Public libraries have cultural, recreational and community roles, as well as educational

One consultee’s response to this was that:

Libraries currently perform all of these functions as part of an Education and Library Board and could continue to do so within any proposed reorganisation of the education service[24]

Another respondent, expressing concern at the separation of two services said it was a “backward step”, because “they are intrinsically linked”. Others, while in agreement with the principle of a single authority, called for systems to be built into the new arrangements to continue the close collaboration between libraries and schools. Several stressed that the current sharing between the library service and schools library service of premises, management, vehicles, IT system, stock contracts and some staff are cost effective arrangements.

Although DCAL states on its website, “We fully expect strong links to be forged between the library authority and the new education authority,”[25] many respondents wished to see such links established via legislation. During the Assembly’s Second Stage Debate the Minister said:

The chief executive designate of the library authority and the Education and Skills Authority will consider the best way of ensuring that all parties work closely together for the mutual benefit of all services.[26]

2.2.5 Expected efficiency savings

DCAL declared that savings of £0.6m in 2009-10, rising to £1.2m in 2010-11, will be made in the running of the public library service as a consequence of the creation of the new single Authority[27]. A number of respondents queried these estimates and wanted further details of the calculations and assumptions upon which they were based. It is noteworthy here that during the Assembly’s Second Stage debate on the Bill, the Minister was asked to provide Members with: “clear figures on the savings and economies that could be made” as the Member felt there was “..a definite need for clarity on that issue”[28]

In its response to the consultation, a group of library professionals was concerned that the estimated efficiency savings might cause the new Authority to:

…come into being in a negative climate of cost reduction, uncertainty and potential conflict rather than a positive climate of service development and partnership building[29]

This sentiment was echoed by other respondents. One group commented that the estimated savings were a:

…cause for alarm given the fact that the vast majority of library service costs are directed to frontline services and that the government has repeatedly stated its commitment to maintaining and enhancing the standard of these across all public services.[30]

Many of the consultees viewed the creation of the single authority as an opportunity for the library service to be developed and expanded. To this end, many expressed a desire to see the appointment of specialist and expert staff (for example, in areas such as marketing, external funding and digitisation). It was in this context that one group viewed the level of savings anticipated by DCAL as “a matter of grave concern.”[31]

2.2.6 Startup costs

The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum[32] declared start up costs at £0.67m to cover part year salaries for the Chief Executive (designate) and other senior staff, support team, rental of temporary premises and consultancy costs. Many respondents believed this sum to be inadequate and thought that start up/transitional costs beyond 2007/08 should be identified and provided for as well. One commented that extra provision should be made for redundancy payments if any streamlining of the service is to take place.

2.2.7 Funding for corporate and support services

DCAL explain that for ‘historical’ reasons corporate and support services for libraries (finance, Human Resources, IT etc) have been financed by the Department of Education (DE), an arrangement which will end once the single Authority is set up. Several consultees considered that disengagement with the education boards will cost the new Authority considerably more for these services than at present. Many called for greater clarity round the issue of funding for corporate and support services, and some doubted that DCAL’s bid would be adequate.

2.2.8 Transfer Schemes

DCAL is obliged by the Libraries Bill to set up Transfer Schemes for the transfer of assets, property, rights and liabilities and the contracts of employment of the Education and Library Board staff to the new Authority. Schedule 2 of the Bill deals with this topic.

A number of concerns, mainly from trade union organisations, were raised about this section of the proposed legislation during the consultations. It is also noteworthy that Members referred to the issue of staff transfer during the Assembly’s Second Stage debate on the Bill. For instance, the Chairman of the Committee for Culture Arts and Leisure, in his remarks to the Minister stressed that:

It is vital that the Department ensures that the experience and skills of the current staff are fully utilised in the new authority and that the transfer is made as smoothly as possible for them.

In particular, I am seeking a commitment from the Minister that jobs will be safeguarded and that staff will maintain their current terms and conditions in the new authority[33]

The Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA) and another public service union, UNISON expressed concern that the current provisions in the Bill may not provide the necessary protection of staff’s rights and called for further detailed scrutiny at Committee stage. NIPSA is also concerned that the formulation expressed in the Libraries Bill may become the template for other transfer legislation.

The main objections by NIPSA to Schedule 2 are:

The Bill should have an additional section to paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 to establish rights and liabilities between the transferred employee and the transferor (ELBs) and the transferred employees and the transferee (the Authority).
Paragraph 4 (2) of the Bill states that TUPE[34] applies to the transfer whether or not the transfer would be a relevant transfer for the purpose of those regulations. NIPSA believe however that the legislation is unclear about whether an employee affected by the transfer would be entitled to bring an application for unfair dismissal (TUPE- Regulation 7) before the Industrial Tribunal without having to prove that the transfer giving rise to the dismissal was a relevant transfer. NIPSA therefore propose an amendment to the Bill to confer jurisdiction upon the Industrial Tribunal.
Similarly, NIPSA believe that the legislation is also unclear about whether employees could present a complaint before the Industrial Tribunal for Remedy for Failure to Notify Employee Liability (TUPE Regulation 12) without having to prove that the transfer giving rise to the complaint was a relevant transfer.
NIPSA believe that Regulation 13 of TUPE (the obligation to consult and inform representatives of affected employees) is similarly compromised and again, recommend that jurisdiction be conferred upon the Industrial Tribunal.
NIPSA request more explicit detail in the provisions relating to independent third party resolution processes dealing with disputes on implementation and compensation.
NIPSA also said that more clarity is needed that the dispute resolution procedures are independent.
More clarity is needed that the “rights to acquire pension benefits” does provide clear statutory protection of the pension benefits a person was entitled to before transfer.

Points raised by UNISON were:

A commitment to consultation and creation of pre-transfer agreement with relevant parties should be stipulated in the Bill.
Section 4(3)(c) – resolution of grievances makes no provision for the use of agreed and independent third-party grievance resolution mechanisms.

2.2.9 Miscellaneous and general

Other concerns in relation to the Bill related to:

A free library service.

At the first consultation stage, a large number of respondents said that the wording in regard to the provision of a free public library service should be made more explicit. DCAL complied with this wish and the Bill was revised. However, at the second consultation stage, many respondents mentioned the issue again, and requested that DCAL make its commitment to the continuation of a free service even clearer in the Bill. One written reply stated: [35]

We have to say that the Bill does not make the commitment clear to a lay person…, and, ….we remain puzzled that the Explanatory Memorandum did not set out clearly in plain English how the Government was proposing to ensure its commitment to the continuation of the free service. We appreciate that the drafting of legislation is an extremely technical matter but an Explanatory Memorandum should surely explain things to lay people so that concerns can be allayed.

One respondent was satisfied that Clause 6 safeguards the principle of a library service free at the point of use, but felt that the Clause would be strengthened if the Bill explicitly stated that the “schemes of charges” referred to at Clause 6.1(b) cannot be applied to core elements such as library membership and off-the-shelf book borrowing.[36]

Clarification was sought from DCAL as to whether the Authority will be eligible to enter into PPP / PFI contracts; and if so, this should be made explicit in the legislation.
Respondents believed that the legislation should allow for the provision of strategic independent advice to the Authority.
Many comments were made in relation to the size and composition of the Board of the new Authority. Many respondents said that the legislation must make explicit that the membership of the Board will reflect the geographical spread of communities across NI including rural areas. Some said that elected representatives should also be appointed to the Board, and this should be stipulated in the legislation.
A number of written submissions to the consultation, in particular, those from disabled rights groups, said that the legislation should be made much more prescriptive in relation to the Authority’s responsibility to meet the special requirements of persons with disabilities.
It was also thought that the Authority should have a research role, which is enshrined in the legislation.

2.3 Key Provisions of the Bill:[37]

The Libraries Bill is intended to give effect to the RPA decision and create a new non-departmental public body (NDPB) to administer and deliver the public library service. The new Library Authority will operate under the direction of, and be funded by, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

The Bill:

Establishes the new library Authority:

It will be called The Northern Ireland Library Authority [Clause1 and Schedule 1], and
Education and Library Boards shall cease to be the library authority for their areas [Clause1 and Schedule 1].

Establishes the structure of the Authority:

The Board of the new Authority will have a Chair and between 7 and14 other members.
Members of the Authority will be appointed by DCAL.
The Authority will have a Chief Executive, the first of whom will be appointed by DCAL, and thereafter by the Authority.

[all Schedule 1].

Details the statutory duties and functions of the new Authority:

To provide a public library service for persons living, working or studying in Northern Ireland. The Authority is also enabled to provide a library service to visitors to Northern Ireland [Clause 2].
To provide a free library service (although libraries can continue to charge for certain aspects of the service or the use of its premises[38]) [Clause 6].
The Authority is enabled to work with other bodies in carrying out its duty [Clause 2.(3) ].
The Authority must comply with any directions made by DCAL as to the exercise of its functions [Clause 9].

Establishes the relationship between DCAL and the Authority:

The Authority will be funded by DCAL [Schedule 1, (16)].
The Authority will operate under the direction of DCAL [Clause 9].

Provides for the transfer of employees to the new Authority:

DCAL must produce Transfer Schemes for the transfer of the property, rights and liabilities of the Education and Library Boards to the new Authority - this includes the contracts of employment of staff of the Education and Library Boards [Clause 1 and Schedule 2].
The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) (TUPE) Regulations 2006[39] (S.I. 2006/246) will apply to the transferring employees [Schedule 2, 4.2].
The Transfer Schemes must include provision securing pension protection for these employees [Schedule 2, 4.3(b)].
The Transfer Schemes must also include provision for procedures designed to resolve any grievances of employees arising in relation to Transfer schemes [Schedule 2, 4.3(c)].
The Transfer Schemes must also include provision for the payment of compensation by DCAL to any employee who suffers loss or detriment in consequence of the Schemes [Schedule 2, 4.3(d)].

3.0 Conclusions

This briefing paper is intended to facilitate Members consideration of the Bill. To this purpose, it presents some basic facts about how the library service operates currently and provides some background information about the context of the new legislation and the policy developments that have taken place recently in the library service. A brief analysis of the main issues that arose from the public consultations is followed by a summary of the main proposals in the Bill. To conclude, some potential issues for consideration are set out below.

3.1 Potential Issues for Consideration

3.1.1 Principal of a single centralised authority.

Although the majority of submissions from the consultations supported the principle of the single centralised authority, some objections were raised, see section 2.2.1.

3.1.2 Equality issues

The decision that a full EQIA on the Bill was unnecessary was commented on by many respondents, particularly trade union organisations, see section 2.2.2. Indications from DCAL are that equality impacts assessments will be carried out at a later stage, but further clarity on the issue may be required from DCAL. This may also apply in relation to Regulatory Impact Assessment (RIA), see section 2.2.3.

3.1.3 Schools library service

This issue also received a large number of comments in the consultation responses, see section 2.2.4. Many respondents regretted the separation of the education and library services. Others wished to see links between the two new Authorities established in the legislation.

3.1.4 Financial issues

A significant number of consultation responses expressed concern about DCAL’s estimates of the savings that will be made by the creation of the new single Authority, see section 2.2.5. Further detail from DCAL on how the estimates were calculated may be required.

In addition, many respondents queried DCAL’s figures for start up costs for the new Authority, believing it to be inadequate, see section 2.2.6.

Funding for corporate and support services was a matter which received a significant number of comments, see section 2.2.7. Many were unclear how these services would be adequately funded in the future and called for greater clarity from DCAL.

3.1.5 Transfer Schemes

Schedule 2 of the Bill deals with the issue of Transfer Schemes. Concern was expressed that the current provisions of the Bill may not provide the necessary protection of staff’s rights, see section 2.2.8. The Trade Union Organisation NIPSA called for further detailed scrutiny of this matter at Committee stage.

Appendix A

History of the Public Library Service[40]

Prior to the creation of a public library service in Ireland, libraries were formed by public subscriptions. Members paid an entry fee to join and an annual subscription which was used to buy books and cover administrative costs. The oldest subscription library in Ireland is the Linenhall Library[41] in Belfast, founded in 1788. Still in existence today at its premises at Donegall Square North, it is the last subscribing library in Ireland, North and South.

Further subscription libraries were set up by organisations such as the Belfast People’s Literary Institute, Working Men’s Clubs and the YMCA. The Belfast People’s Reading Rooms were opened in 1865 and Mechanic’s Institute Libraries were formed during the early part of the 19th century. These libraries encouraged self-improvement through education and learning.

The origin of the modern public library service was the passing of the Public Libraries Act of 1850 in England and Wales and The Public Libraries Act (Ireland) 1855. The legislation empowered local councils to levy a rate of one halfpenny in the pound to establish libraries in their area. In Ireland the Act initially applied to municipal authorities with a population of 5,000 and over and for the first time, gave the public free access to a range of library material, both popular and scholarly.

The Act was slow to take effect in Ireland but in 1858 the first public library opened in Dundalk County Louth, followed in 1860 by Ennis, County Clare. The first public library in Belfast opened in 1888, established by the public rate. Branches opened in Ballymacarrett in 1903, Oldpark in 1907, Falls in 1908 and the Donegall Road in 1909. The provisions of the Act were eventually widened to apply to all urban districts, any rural district and allowed for new means of funding for libraries. Urban districts which adopted the Libraries Act were Lurgan in 1895, Newtownards in 1896, Newry in 1897, Banbridge in 1902, Portadown in 1904, Downpatrick in 1905, Larne in 1905 and Bangor in 1910.

During the early part of the 20th century Carnegie[42] grants were extended to Ireland which had a far reaching influence on the public library movement. Altogether, over 600 Carnegie libraries were built in Britain and Ireland. Following an experiment into the feasibility of a county library system in 1922 the Public Libraries Act (Northern Ireland) 1924 was passed. This established County Councils as library authorities. County libraries began to supply books to elementary schools. Over subsequent decades the library service in NI continued to develop and expand. The service was reviewed in the early 1960s[43] and again in 1970 when the Macrory Report[44] recommended a new system of up to five area boards to be established having regional functions covering education and libraries. This led to The Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1972 which created the Belfast, North Eastern, Southern, South Eastern and Western Education and Library Boards.

The Boards took over the stock and buildings, and in many cases, the staff of the former Belfast and Londonderry Borough libraries, the six county libraries of Antrim, Armagh and Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry, and Tyrone, plus the surviving independent local libraries within the county boundaries. The 1972 Order created a formal link between the library service and the school system and required the boards to establish Library Committees. The five Boards were funded by a block grant from the Department of Education Northern Ireland (DENI) and each Board then allocated money according to its priorities to each of its divisions: education, youth and library services. By 1973 there were 16 Library Authorities in Northern Ireland with a total 68 libraries. The Order required that approval at departmental level must be sought regarding new developments to the library service. The 1972 Order was consolidated in The Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986.

The Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 gave the responsibility for libraries to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL), one of the newly created 11 Northern Ireland Departments. Since then, DCAL has supported the libraries aspect of the Education and Library boards.

[1] From DCAL’s website www.dcalni.gov.uk

[2] Research and Library Services query 10 August 2007. The Libraries Bill and the proposal for a new centralised headquarters may have implications for these staff. DCAL said that it will provide more precise figures on the number of staff affected once a decision on the new headquarters location has been made and staff transfer scheme set up.

In relation to the estimated 170 staff, DCAL state that some of the library HQ buildings, such as Omagh and Belfast also house some staff in support functions (e.g. security and cleaning) ‘shared’ between branch libraries and the HQ.

[3] A report entitled “Tomorrow’s Libraries – views of the Public Library Sector” was published in 2002

[4] “Northern Ireland Libraries: A Framework for Change” October 2005 DCAL http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/framework_for_change-2.pdf

[5] “Delivering Tomorrows Libraries” http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/1mb_final_libraries_doc-2.pdf

[6] The aims of the RPA are covered in “Better Government for Northern Ireland: Final Decisions of the Review of Public Administration”. March 2006

http://www.rpani.gov.uk/bettergovernment_doc-_final_decisions.pdf

[7] http://www.rpani.gov.uk/speech210306.pdf

[8] The establishment of which will require separate legislation.

[9] By April 2008.

In relation to staff working in RPA affected areas, Government has since stated:

- That staff will transfer should their respective functions transfer,

- If it is proposed to physically re-locate work, staff would move within their existing contractual mobility obligations,

- Currently the affected sectors are working together on the arrangements for re-location.

- All such proposals would be subject to the normal consultation processes.

http://www.rpani.gov.uk/index/faq/employment.htm

[10] Consultees had asked that the commitment to a continuing free service was made clearer and that the maximum permitted size of the Authority Board be increased.

[11] http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/libraries__ni__order_2007_screening_report.pdf

[12] http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/legislation/primary/2007/niabill5_07.htm

[13] http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/070619.htm

[14] A public notice inviting written submissions to the Bill was placed in the Newsletter, Irish News, Belfast Telegraph and the Belfast Telegraph North West edition on 25 June 2007. In addition, individual invitations were issued to 56 organisations. The closing date was 17 July 2007.

[15] For instance, the Electronic Libraries project (ELFNI). Implemented by the five Library Authorities, it provides a single ICT network and library management system across the whole of Northern Ireland and allows all public library users to search a single catalogue and request any item no matter which library or Board it is housed in.

[16] Under Section 75 of The Northern Ireland Act 1998, Government departments are required to have due regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity.

[17] Consultation submission by Ms M McLaughlin. July 2007.

[18] Response byThe Commissioners of South Eastern Education and Library Board. July 2007

[19] Assembly debate on the Libraries Bill 19 June. Speech by Mr Pat Ramsey. http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/070619.htm

[20] Equality Screening Report on the Review of Public Administration decision to set up a Single Library Authority for Northern Ireland. 2 October 2006 http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/libraries__ni__order_2007_screening_report.pdf

[21] Research and Library Services query 10 August 2007. Reply received from DCAL Libraries Branch-RPA 17th August 2007.

[22] ibid

[23] http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/legislation/primary/2007/niabill5_07efm.htm

See also http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/index/libraries/northern_ireland_library_authority.htm

DCAL also state on their website in relation to this issue:

“Libraries have an important place in the life of a community outside the formal education system. Libraries provide a service:

- To all citizens, not school children alone

- For lifelong learning, not just for under eighteens

- For informal learning, not just formal educational structures”.

[24] Consultation response from the North Eastern Education and Library Board. July 2007.

[25] http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/index/libraries/northern_ireland_library_authority.htm

[26] http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/070619.htm

[27] See the section on the financial effects of the Bill in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum.

http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/legislation/primary/2007/niabill5_07efm.htm

[28] Assembly debate 19 June 2007. Speech by Mr Nelson McCausland http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/070619.htm

[29] Consultation response from the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals. July 2007.

[30] Consultation response from the Library and Information Services Council (LISC) July 2007.

[31] Consultation response from the Association of Chief Librarians. July 2007.

[32] http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/legislation/primary/2007/niabill5_07efm.htm

[33] Assembly debate 19 June. Speech by Mr Barry McElduff. http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2007/070619.htm

[34] The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (S.I.2006/246) http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060246.htm

[35] Consultation response from Share The Vision. July 2007

[36] Consultation response from CILIP - The Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals. July 2007.

[37] Note: a summary is presented here; see the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum (Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure 2007) that accompanies the Bill for a detailed clause by clause description of the proposals). http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/legislation/primary/2007/niabill5_07efm.htm

[38] For example, at present libraries may charge users a fine for overdue books and for photocopying services.

[39] http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060246.htm

[40] See “A History of Literacy and Libraries in Ireland”. Mary Casteleyn.1984. Gower.

[41] See the Linenhall Library’s website at www.linenhall.com The Library was founded by the Belfast Reading Society which later became the Belfast Society for Promoting Knowledge.

[42] Andrew Carnegie 1835-1919. Born in Scotland, immigrated to USA in 1848. He donated the money for the building of thousands of Carnegie libraries in English–speaking countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[43] The Hawnt Report was published in April 1966. “The Public Library Service in Northern Ireland – Report of the Committee Appointed by the Minister of Education” Cmnd 494 HMSO.

[44] This was the report of a review body on local Government in Northern Ireland.

Appendix 5

List of Witnesses
who gave Oral Evidence
to the Committee

Ms Kathleen McCloskey Ms Helen Osborne Ms Anne Connolly	Association of Chief Librarians (Northern Ireland)
Mr Bob McKee Mr John McCormick Ms Elga Logue	Chartered Institute of Library Professionals Ireland
Mr Kirby Porter Mr John Gray	Library and Information Services Council Northern Ireland
Ms Joan Christie MS Adrienne Adair Mr Stanton Sloan	South Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Helen Osborne Mr Barry Mulholland Mr Bill Reilly	Western Education and Library Board
Mr David Cargo Mr David Jess Ms Rosemary Frawley	Belfast Education and Library Board
Ms Marie Donnell Mr Wilbert Mayne Ms Kathleen Ryan	Southern Education and Library Board
Mr Billy McCartney Ms Anne Connolly Mr Gordon Topping	North Eastern Education and Library Board
Ms Patricia McKeown Mr Jonathon Swallow	UNISON
Mr John Corey Ms Alison Millar Ms Mary McVeigh	NIPSA
Mr Edwin Poots	Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Paul Sweeney Ms Julie Mapstone Mr Colin Jack	Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure
Mr Noel Kelly	Departmental Solicitors Office
Ms Irene Knox	Northern Ireland Library Authority

Session 2007/2008

First Report

COMMITTEE FOR CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE

Report on The Libraries Bill(NIA 5/07)

TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS RELATING TO THE REPORT

Membership and Powers

Powers

Membership

Table of Contents

Appendix 1

Appendix 2

Appendix 3

Appendix 4

Appendix 5

List of AbbreviationsUsed in the Report

Executive Summary

Introduction

Consideration of the Bill

Clause by Clause Consideration of the Bill

Minutes of Proceedings relating to the Report

Thursday, 24 May 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Departmental presentation on draft Libraries Bill

Tuesday, 4 September 2007Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

1 Libraries Bill

Thursday, 13 September 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 20 September 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 27 September 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 4 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 11 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 18 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA Bill 5/07)

Thursday, 25 October 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 8 November 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 22 November 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 29 November 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 6 December 2007Central Library, Belfast

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 13 December 2007Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 10 January 2008Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

Thursday, 17 January 2008Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill (NIA 5/07)

2. Presentation on the Organisational Structures of the Northern Ireland Library Authority

Thursday 24 January 2008Room 152, Parliament Buildings

1. Libraries Bill

Appendix 2

Minutes of Evidence

4 September 2007

13 September 2007

20 September 2008

27 September 2007

4 October 2007

11 October 2007

18 October 2007

25 October 2007

Thursday 8 November 2007

22 November 2007

Thursday 29 November 2007

6 December 2007

13 December 2007

10 January 2008

17 January 2008

17 January 2008

24 January 2008

Appendix 3

Written Submissions

Chartered Institute of Libraryand Information Professionals Ireland

Preface

The Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals Ireland

Response

Report on
The Libraries Bill
(NIA 5/07)

TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND
WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS RELATING TO THE REPORT

List of Abbreviations
Used in the Report

Thursday, 24 May 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Tuesday, 4 September 2007
Senate Chamber, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 13 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 20 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 27 September 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 4 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 11 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 18 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 25 October 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 8 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 22 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 29 November 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 6 December 2007
Central Library, Belfast

Thursday, 13 December 2007
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 10 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday, 17 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Thursday 24 January 2008
Room 152, Parliament Buildings

Chartered Institute of Library
and Information Professionals Ireland

Contact details: elga.logue@btinternet.com
Professionally Qualified and Chartered Librarian

SELB Library Headquarters
1 Markethill Road
Armagh
BT60 1NR
Tel: 028 3752 535
Fax 028 3752 6879

Chartered Institute of
Library and Information Professionals UK

Draft Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 2007
Schedule 2 – Transfer Schemes