Northern Ireland Assembly Flax Flower Logo

COMMITTEE OF THE CENTRE
REPORT INTO THE PROPOSAL TO
APPOINT A COMMISSIONER FOR CHILDREN FOR NORTHERN IRELAND

Volume 1 -REPORT AND THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO THE REPORT

Ordered by The Committee of the Centre to be printed 4 June 2001

Report: 2/00 R (Committee of the Centre)

COMMITTEE OF THE CENTRE

The Committee of the Centre is a Standing Committee established in accordance with paragraph 10 of Strand One of the Belfast Agreement and under Standing Order No. 59 of The Northern Ireland Assembly. The Terms of Reference of the Committee are to examine and report on functions carried out in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and on any other related matters determined by the Assembly.

The Committee has the power to send for persons and papers.

The Committee has seventeen members, including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson and a quorum of five members.

The current membership of the Committee, established on 15 December 1999, is as follows:

  • Mr Edwin Poots (Chairperson)
  • Mr Oliver Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
  • Mr Roy Beggs Jnr
  • Mrs Eileen Bell
  • Dr Esmond Birnie
  • Mr Fred Cobain
  • Mrs Annie Courtney
  • Mr David Ervine
  • Ms Michelle Gildernew
  • Mr James Leslie
  • Ms Patricia Lewsley
  • Mr Alex Maskey
  • Mr Conor Murphy
  • Dr Alasdair McDonnell
  • Mr Eugene McMenamin
  • Mr Ken Robinson
  • Mr Jim Shannon

CONTENTS

Volume One

Section

Recommendations

1. Introduction

2. Issues Considered by the Committee

3. Responses to Issues by Organisations Giving Evidence

4. Consideration of Evidence

5. Conclusions

Appendices

1. Minutes of Evidence

Second Report

Recommendations

Roles and Responsibilities

1. The role of the Commissioner for Children should extend to all children under 18 years of age (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.3).

2. The role of the Commissioner for Children should extend to those up to 21 years old who are leaving care and receiving post care services, if the proposals for a Children Leaving Care Bill are enacted (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.4).

3. The role of the Commissioner for Children should also extend to children who are ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland but who are receiving services, such as health, education, or other services, outside Northern Ireland (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.5).

4. The Commissioner for Children should have a broad remit covering all aspects of children's lives to enable him/her to be a champion for all children (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.11).

5. The Commissioner for Children should have a role to act as an advocate for children's rights and monitor the delivery of these rights in Northern Ireland (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.12).

6. The Commissioner for Children should have a role to promote a culture of children's rights through fostering education and acting as a source of information and advice (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.13).

7. The Commissioner for Children should have a role in childproofing legislation through scrutinising and commenting upon all proposed legislation in relation to its impact on children (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.16).

8. The Commissioner for Children should have a role in assessing existing legislation and bringing forward proposals and recommendations for change, where appropriate (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.17).

9. The Commissioner for Children should have a role in considering and commenting on the impact of policies and practices on children and young people (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.18).

10. The role of the Commissioner for Children should extend to reserved matters including the juvenile justice system (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.21).

11. The Commissioner for Children should have a role in considering and reporting on primary and subordinate legislation and policies relating to reserved matters (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.22).

12. The Northern Ireland Office should provide the resources for the Commissioner's role in relation to reserved matters (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.23).

13. The Commissioner for Children should have a duty to create and promote new and innovative opportunities for young people to make their views heard. This could include, for example, working through schools, youth clubs, youth councils and other fora, and involve the use of Information Technology (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.26).

14. The Commissioner for Children should work to improve the means of communication with children and young people through, for example, promoting the use of a language that young people understand without jargon and formality (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.27).

15. The Commissioner for Children should consider supporting the establishment of a children's forum to relate to the work of the office of the Commissioner (Section 4, paragraph 4.3.28).

DUTIES AND POWERS

16. The Commissioner for Children should have adequate powers to investigate complaints or to initiate investigations or inquiries in respect of any aspect of children's rights, where other avenues of redress have failed (Section 4, paragraph 4.4.4).

17. The Commissioner for Children's powers of investigation should include the power to require the disclosure of documents, to subpoena witnesses, and to issue compliance notices (Section 4, paragraph 4.4.5).

18. The Commissioner for Children should, as part of any investigation or inquiry, have power to enter any premises or establishment where children are, including places of detention and all places where children are in the care of public authorities (Section 4, paragraph 4.4.6).

19. The Commissioner for Children should have the power to intervene in legal cases or to take a case in his/her own right. The power in relation to legal cases should be used strategically by the Commissioner where there is a potential benefit for all children or a specific group of children, or where a point of principle is at stake (Section 4, paragraph 4.4.9).

20. The Commissioner for Children should have a responsibility to highlight, to the relevant agencies, areas where additional research and statistics are required and a duty to undertake or commission research, if deemed necessary, on issues of concern to children (Section 4, paragraph 4.4.12).

21. The Commissioner for Children should have a duty to collate information and compile statistics relating to children (Section 4, paragraph 4.4.13).

INTERFACING AND ACCOUNTABILITY

22. The Commissioner for Children should monitor the co-ordination of services between organisations that have a role in ensuring children's rights (Section 4, paragraph 4.5.3).

23. The Commissioner for Children should draw up a Memorandum of Understanding with each organisation with which he/she will interface (Section 4, paragraph 4.5.4).

24. The Commissioner for Children should be directly accountable to the Northern Ireland Assembly through the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister (Section 4, paragraph 4.5.6).

25. The Commissioner for Children should be required to produce an annual report and present it to the Assembly (Section 4, paragraph 4.5.8).

26. The Commissioner for Children should be required to appear before the Committee of the Centre at least once a year to report on the welfare of children in Northern Ireland (Section 4, paragraph 4.5.9).

INDEPENDENCE AND GOOD PRACTICE

27. The Commissioner for Children should be independent of all existing organisations and public bodies (Section 4, paragraph 4.6.2).

28. The Commissioner for Children should not have a direct role in relation to parents' rights but in promoting children's rights the Commissioner should take appropriate account of the views of parents or other guardians (Section 4, paragraph 4.6.5).

29. The Commissioner for Children should have a role in identifying and promoting good practice within Northern Ireland and liaising with other countries where a Children's Commissioner already exists, on issues relating to children's rights (Section 4, paragraph 4.6.8).

APPOINTMENT AND RESOURCES

30. The Commissioner for Children should be appointed through an independent selection process. This should comply with Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the Principles Relating to the Status of National Institutions, approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in Resolution 48/134 of 1993 (Paris Principles) (Section 4, paragraph 4.7.3).

31. The criteria for candidates for the post of Commissioner for Children should be based on skills, competence and experience, with an emphasis on the ability to engage directly with children, rather than necessarily having a specific professional or academic qualification (Section 4, paragraph 4.7.4).

32. Young people should be directly involved in the appointment process. The Committee commends the innovative method used recently in the appointment of the Commissioner for Children in Wales (Section 4, paragraph 4.7.5).

33. The Commissioner for Children should be appointed for a term of four years with the option of an extension for a further four years subject to employment legislation (Section 4, paragraph 4.7.8).

34. There should be power to terminate the appointment of the Commissioner for Children before the expiry of the term of office on the grounds of incompetence or misconduct (Section 4, paragraph 4.7.9).

35. The Commissioner for Children should be given adequate resources to carry out the full remit. In setting the initial budget for the Commissioner the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should take account of funding for Commissioners in other European countries bearing in mind any differences in size or population (Section 4, paragraph 4.7.11).

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1. INTRODUCTION

1.1 Purpose

1.1.1 The First Minister and Deputy First Minister made a statement to the Assembly on 29 January 2001 announcing their intention to bring forward proposals to establish an independent Commissioner for Children for Northern Ireland. In the statement the First Minister said:

"It is also important to have a wide-ranging debate and discussion before finalising proposals, including an opportunity for children and young people and the organisations that represent them to influence the way forward. Therefore we have decided to initiate a comprehensive consultation process to give interested parties an opportunity to put their views forward. We aim to begin consultation as soon as possible and bring legislative proposals before the Assembly at the earliest opportunity."

1.1.2 The Committee of the Centre, in pursuance of its scrutiny role in respect of the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister (OFMDFM), decided to conduct an Inquiry into the proposal for a Commissioner for Children for Northern Ireland under the following terms of reference:

"To examine the proposal by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to appoint an independent Commissioner for Children for Northern Ireland and to make recommendations on the role and remit of a Commissioner."

1.1.3 In undertaking the Inquiry the Committee agreed, at its meeting on 14 February 2001, that it would draw up a programme to consult interested groups and organisations. The purpose of the Inquiry would be to help crystallise the views of the Committee and to produce a report which would add momentum to the OFMDFM proposals and make a positive contribution to the public debate on the issue.

1.1.4 The Committee fully recognised from the outset that, in the time available, it could only hear evidence from a small sample of the very many groups and organisations with an interest in this issue. In any event the Committee did not wish to replicate the planned OFMDFM consultation exercise. However, the Committee decided that it would invite evidence from as representative a range of opinion as possible looking at different aspects of what might form the remit of a Commissioner. It also decided that it would like to hear from some young people themselves and that it should explore the experience of some other countries where a Children's Commissioner already exists.

1.2 Background

1.2.1 At the Committee meeting on 7 March 2001 Members received an update on the proposals for a Children's Commissioner from the Junior Ministers, Mr Denis Haughey MLA and Mr Dermot Nesbitt MLA. The Committee then set aside six weeks to hear evidence on the issue commencing on 21 March 2001 and concluding on 11 May 2001, excluding the Easter Recess. The Committee also agreed to consider taking evidence at venues outside Parliament Buildings. The Committee aimed to complete a report by mid June to allow for publication around the same time as the planned OFMDFM consultation document.

1.2.2. Representatives from the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland appeared before the Committee on 21 March 2001 to make presentations and answer questions about Human Rights and Equality issues on the role and remit of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland.

1.2.3 Representatives from a first group of organisations co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland, appeared before the Committee on 28 March 2001 to make presentations and answer questions on the various aspects of the role and remit of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The organisations were Save the Children, Children's Law Centre, Barnardos, PlayBoard, Include Youth, National Deaf Children's Society, Southern Travellers Early Years Partnership and NSPCC.

1.2.4 At the Committee of the Centre meeting on 4 April 2001 held in the Great Hall, Magee College, Londonderry, representatives from the Western Young People's Steering Group appeared before the Committee to give young people's perspectives and views on the role and remit of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. In addition, representatives from the Derry Children's Commissioner appeared before the Committee to make presentations and answer questions on the different aspects of a role and remit of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland.

1.2.5 Representatives from the Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)), the Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and The Law Society of Northern Ireland appeared before the Committee on 25 April 2001 to make presentations and answer questions on the role and remit of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland.

1.2.6 Representatives from a second group of organisations co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland appeared before the Committee on 2 May 2001 to make presentations and answer questions on the Champion, Watchdog, Whistle Blower role of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The organisations were First Key (Northern Ireland), NI Foster Care Association, NIACRO, EXTERN, Parents Advice Centre, Gingerbread and VOYPIC.

1.2.7 At the Committee of the Centre meeting on 9 May 2001 the Chairperson of the Welsh Health and Social Services Committee, which had carried out a consultation exercise in Wales, appeared before the Committee to give views on the experience, role and remit of the Children's Commissioner in Wales. In addition the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland also gave evidence on the relationship between his own role and that of the proposed Children's Commissioner.

1.2.8 At a meeting of the Committee of the Centre on 11 May 2001 the Children's Ombudsman from Norway appeared before the Committee to give views on the experience, role and remit of the Children's Commissioner in Norway.

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2. ISSUES CONSIDERED BY THE COMMITTEE

2.1 Main Issues

2.1.1 The first important issue arising from the Committee's Terms of Reference is the need for a Commissioner for Children for Northern Ireland. Children's Rights Commissioners have existed in Europe since 1981 when Norway became the first Government to use legislation to establish the office of a Children's Ombudsman. In 1997, a number of European Union Member States formed the European Network of Ombudsmen to encourage the fullest possible implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child; to support collective lobbying for children's rights; to share information, approaches and strategies; and to promote the development of effective independent offices for children.

2.1.2 Wales has recently become the first country within the UK to appoint a Children's Commissioner. This came about as a result of calls from organisations working on behalf of children and with the support of the main political parties in Wales. The case for a Children's Commissioner was given added momentum by the publication in February 2000 of the report of the North Wales Child Abuse Inquiry by Sir Ronald Waterhouse "Lost in Care" which recommended the early appointment of a Commissioner.

2.1.3 In Northern Ireland the voluntary child care sector, particularly through the Child Care (NI) 'Putting Children 1st' project, has been campaigning for some time for a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The Health and Social Services and Public Safety (HSSPS) Committee, in a report to the Assembly in November 2000, also recommended the appointment of a Children's Commissioner.

2.1.4 Linked to the need for a Children's Commissioner is the question of whether it is sufficient to appoint such a Commissioner in isolation or whether it needs to be part of a wider strategy for children. In the Republic of Ireland the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child came into force in 1992 but as yet there is no independent body established by statute to act as a watchdog for children's issues. However, a National Children's Strategy was published in November 2000 which contains proposals relating to an Office of Ombudsman for Children. In Wales the appointment of a Children's Commissioner is not linked to a specific strategy for children.

2.1.5 In considering the potential role and remit of a Commissioner the Committee looked at five key areas and identified a number of questions in relation to each of these. These are set out in the following paragraphs.

2.1.6 Roles and Responsibilities of a Commissioner.

  • Should the Commissioner's role relate to all children under the age of 18 or to a different age or other group?
  • Should the Commissioner have a broad remit covering all aspects of children's lives.
  • Should the Commissioner have a role in childproofing legislation, policy and practice to ensure compliance with human rights standards?
  • Should the Commissioner have a role in relation to reserved matters and particularly to children in the juvenile justice system?
  • How can a Commissioner give a voice to young people?

2.1.7 Duties and Powers of a Commissioner.

  • Should the Commissioner have investigatory powers including power to undertake inquiries, to enter premises, to subpoena witnesses, to issue compliance notices, etc?
  • Should the Commissioner have power to intervene in legal proceedings that may have implications for children's rights? Should the Commissioner have power to take cases in his/her own right?
  • Should the Commissioner have a duty to undertake/commission research on issues of concern to children and to collect information and compile statistics relating to children?

2.1.8 Interfacing and Accountability.

  • What should be the relationship with existing bodies that have an interest in children's rights?
  • To whom should the Commissioner be accountable?
  • Should the Commissioner be required to produce an annual report? Should the Commissioner be required to report to an Assembly Committee?

2.1.9 Independence and Good Practice.

  • Should the Commissioner be independent or part of an existing organisation such as the Equality Commission?
  • Is there potential for conflict between parents' rights and children's rights?
  • What lessons can be learned from other countries where Children's Commissioners already exist?

2.1.10 Appointment and Resources

  • How should a Commissioner be recruited/appointed? What criteria should be used? How should young people be involved in the appointment process?
  • What should be the tenure of appointment? Should the Commissioner be eligible for reappointment?
  • What resources should be provided for the Commissioner/Office of the Commissioner?

2.2 Evidence

2.2.1 The Committee sought evidence from a number of bodies and organisations with a wide range of interests in issues affecting children. In addition to hearing evidence from organisations inside Parliament Buildings the Committee also took evidence from two organisations at Magee College, Londonderry.

2.2.2 Organisations and bodies that gave oral evidence to the Committee were:

  • Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission;
  • Equality Commission for Northern Ireland;
  • Child Care Northern Ireland;
  • Save the Children;
  • Children's Law Centre;
  • Barnardos;
  • PlayBoard;
  • Include Youth;
  • National Deaf Children's Society;
  • Southern Travellers Early Years Partnership;
  • National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC);
  • Western Young People's Steering Group;
  • Derry Children's Commission;
  • Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI));
  • Guardian Ad Litem Agency;
  • The Law Society of Northern Ireland;
  • First Key (Northern Ireland);
  • Northern Ireland Foster Care Association (NIFCA);
  • Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO);
  • EXTERN;
  • Parents Advice Centre;
  • Gingerbread Northern Ireland;
  • Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC);
  • Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales;
  • The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland;
  • The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman.

2.2.3 The following bodies/organisations gave written evidence to the Committee:

  • Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission;
  • Equality Commission for Northern Ireland;
  • Child Care Northern Ireland;
  • Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee;
  • Regional Development Committee;
  • Environment Committee;
  • Western Young People's Steering Group;
  • Derry Children's Commission;
  • Committee on Procedures;
  • Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment Committee;
  • Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee;
  • The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI));
  • Guardian Ad Litem Agency;
  • The Law Society of Northern Ireland;
  • First Key (Northern Ireland);
  • Northern Ireland Foster Care Association (NIFCA);
  • Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO);
  • EXTERN;
  • Parents Advice Centre;
  • Gingerbread Northern Ireland;
  • Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales;
  • Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland;
  • CARE (Christian Action Research and Education);
  • Education Committee.
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3. RESPONSES TO ISSUES BY ORGANISATIONS GIVING EVIDENCE

3.1. General

The case for a Children's Commissioner.

3.1.1 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • The Commission believes there is a need for a children's commissioner because several international bodies have called for such an appointment. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has consistently commended the establishment of such offices in various countries, and the Council of Europe in its European Strategy for Children also proposes the appointment of a commissioner or ombudsman for children. We know that children's organisations in Northern Ireland strongly support the recommendation that a children's commissioner be established.
  • In the absence of a dedicated Ombudsman or Commissioner for Children, or other independent watchdog for children, the Commission has sought to act in some way, at least in the interim, as an independent watchdog for children. While the Commission has tried to prioritise the protection of children's rights, there are serious restrictions on the work it is able to do. The roots of these limitations are both financially and legally based.

3.1.2 The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland said:

  • There is plenty of evidence from research in Northern Ireland, not least the recent Gulbenkian Foundation Inquiry into Effective Government Structures for children in 1998 to support the need for a Children's Commissioner. In the Commission's view there is clearly a vote for a Children's Commissioner.

3.1.3 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We welcome the announcement that there is going to be a Children's Commissioner. We have worked and lobbied for this for a long time. It has the potential to have a positive influence on many aspects of all children's lives.

3.1.4 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • There must also be a complete change in attitudes and ways of thinking, owing to the fact that young people and adults almost speak different languages.
  • They want someone who can identify with them.

3.1.5 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • Derry Children's Commission welcomes the intention of the Executive to bring forward legislation and to establish an independent commission for children for Northern Ireland.

3.1.6 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • The BASW (NI) welcomes the Government's acknowledgement of the need for change, as evidenced by their decision to appoint a Commissioner for Children.

3.1.7 In a written submission the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety stated:

  • The DHSSPS Committee, in its report to the Assembly on Residential Care and Secure Accommodation for Children in Northern Ireland, recommended the appointment of a Commissioner for Children and suggested a possible remit. The DHSSPS Committee looks forward to the appointment of a Commissioner for Children as soon as possible.

3.1.8 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and The Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • We very much welcome the intention to establish a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland.
  • There is a clear need for an overview of services to and for children provided by government and voluntary agencies with the power to comment at the highest level.
  • There is a need to empower Family Proceedings Courts to appoint a Guardian Ad Litem to represent children in private law cases where there is a conflict of interest between a child and his/her parents. (One of a number of areas highlighted as needing to be addressed by a Commissioner.)

3.1.9 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We welcome the prospect of a Commissioner for children's rights. It is an important additional component in the support framework necessary to enhance the status of and improve the quality of life for all Northern Ireland's children and young people.

3.1.10 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • There had been a long-running campaign for a Children's Commissioner from a wide variety of organisations in Wales, even before the Waterhouse Report. There was a great deal of political impetus.

3.1.11 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • I emphasise my complete support for the proposal to appoint a Children's Commissioner in Northern Ireland.

3.1.12 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • The office of the Children's Ombudsman started in Norway in 1981 after long discussions in the 1970s on the revision of law relating to children. The main starting point was the policy on children.
  • I have arguments for and against setting up the office. There was no accident or big event which initiated the Ombudsman debate. It was part of a lengthy discussion in the 1970s revising the Children's Act. It was based on the fact that children had no voice.
  • What is the extra factor with the Children's Ombudsman? Openness, moving along with developments and our proactive side have been our successes in Norway.

The need for a Children's Commissioner to be part of a wider strategy.

3.1.13 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • When the First Minister made the announcement in principle to establish a commissioner for children, we very much welcomed the fact that it was part of a much wider children's strategy.
  • We have found ourselves in a logjam in that while a lot of effort has gone into planning we are at the stage where individual departmental agendas are making it difficult to deliver for children. The Commissioner would have limited capacity to do something about that on his or her own. However, the Commissioner could address those difficulties if an integrated children's strategy had been agreed by the Assembly.
  • It is for the Government to devise a strategy for children in Northern Ireland that involves all the Departments and all the elements.
  • There needs to be a strategy for children. We must collectively give a commitment that we are not going to have children in Northern Ireland who are destined to fail.

3.1.14 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • I do believe we need to have a strategic vision for children's services. There is always, however, the danger that having a strategy for children allows politicians off the hook.

3.1.15 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • May I commend to the Committee the vision described in the Children's Strategy of the Republic of Ireland as one we could usefully apply as a basis for our approach in Northern Ireland. It is important that the Children's Commissioner will be part of the overall framework of governance in Northern Ireland.

3.2 Roles and Responsibilities

The age or other groups to come within the remit of the Commissioner.

3.2.1 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • The Commissioner's constituency must be every child under the age of 18 in Northern Ireland.

3.2.2 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • A Children's Commissioner must be empowered to act on behalf of all children up to the age of 18 in respect of all matters relating to their lives including issues which are currently reserved under the NI Act 1998.

3.2.3 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • What age group will the Commissioner define as a child? I would be worried about a specific age limit.
  • Regarding the role of the Commissioner, will you base it just on children and young people in care, as they have done in Wales, or will he or she have responsibilities for all young people? People in care and in need do require more support and attention, but that support should be available to all young people.

3.2.4 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • The Commissioner's remit will have to extend to all children under 18 years of age.

3.2.5 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • A child, therefore, from a social work perspective, is anyone under the age of 18. Overall a Commissioner should be responsible for all children under the age of 18.

3.2.6 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • The jurisdiction of a Children's Commissioner will encompass persons of 17 and under.

3.2.7 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • Our view is that the Children's Commissioner should focus exclusively on children as defined in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, namely, all those under the age of 18.

3.2.8 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • The first issue related to whether the Children's Commissioner's powers should extend to children and young people who normally live in Wales but who receive care, education and other services in England. The Committee concluded that they should, although we had to negotiate the matter with the Westminster Government.
  • There is now a statutory requirement to provide support, advice and care up to the age of 24. It was therefore felt that the Children's Commissioner should have the opportunity to do that.

The breadth of remit of the Commissioner.

3.2.9 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • A core role of the Children's Commissioner should be to monitor the extent to which the UK Government is honouring its commitment to uphold the standards in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

3.2.10 The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland said:

  • The role of a Children's Commissioner should include acting for a vast array of children with multiple identities.

3.2.11 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner could act as an independent watchdog for the rights of all children.
  • The Commissioner should not just be concerned with the monitoring of statutory provision or the actions of the Assembly but should keep a watch on voluntary sector provision as well.
  • The Commissioner would be a champion for children acting as an interface between children and those who have been charged with ensuring that their needs are met both inside and outside Government.

3.2.12 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • The Commissioner could address the issue of making the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child legislation from Europe much more effective at home.
  • The role should not only be for certain issues around certain people, but also for every young person.

3.2.13 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • The role of a Commissioner should be wide ranging.
  • The primary role of a Children's Commissioner should be to promote awareness of children's rights and to highlight ways in which the current law, policy and practice fail to respect those rights.
  • The delivery or denial of children's rights for compliance with domestic and international human rights standards should be monitored.
  • He or she should act as an advocate and as a promoter of the culture of children's rights and should ensure that parents are actively involved.
  • The Commissioner should have a role in creating an ethos, a climate where people are aware of the rights of children and aware of their citizenship.
  • Ensure that the policies of different Government agencies are coherent and consistent in relation to their delivery of children's services.

3.2.14 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

As well as co-ordination, the Commissioner could have an advocacy role and raise the profile of children.

3.2.15 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • The first responsibility that we noted concerns the monitoring of the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, in particular the reference to Article 12.
  • It would be better for the Commissioner to stand back and decide if a situation weighs things properly for the children concerned. That will be one of the overview responsibilities of the Commissioner.

3.2.16 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We are looking for a Commissioner with the necessary power, authority, independence and respect to take on a promotional and investigatory role. We see it as a role taking the UN Convention as its touchstone.
  • The Commissioner should have a role in strategic planning and work closely with children's groups, and groups across Northern Ireland. The Commissioner should act as an advisor to the Government in the strategic planning of children's services Province-wide.
  • The Commissioner should have an overarching and overseeing role with teeth to act.
  • There is already a range of advocacy channels for a range of constituencies. One of the Commissioner's roles would be to direct children, young people and, perhaps, their parents to those existing channels.

3.2.17 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • The main responsibilities are to promote children's rights and raise the profile of children's issues.
  • The Commissioner's remit should extend beyond the services normally associated with children to wider services and issues that affect them such as transport policy planning.
  • The Children's Commissioner is there to ensure that everybody else's complaints procedures and systems are child-friendly and accessible. It is only when the systems fail and break down that the Children's Commissioner needs to get involved.

3.2.18 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • The role of the Commissioner must be rooted in an inclusive, positive and an achievable vision for all the children in Northern Ireland.
  • The Commissioner must be an advocate and champion for children ensuring real and meaningful engagement with children in ways that are appropriate, relevant and effective.
  • The Commissioner must be the guardian of the rights of young people and children. Our objective must be to create a child-centred rights culture that will involve both promotion of rights and the monitoring of compliance. It should also involve representing and assisting children to present their case where a breach of rights is alleged or suspected.
  • The critical balance is to ensure that the Children's Commissioner ensures that organisations are delivering on their responsibilities in a joined-up way. That points to the key role of advocacy.

3.2.19 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • I can act well in many cases because I have a system which takes my recommendations seriously. Public systems have been set up to help children in crisis. My task is to see why those systems are not functioning properly.
  • In Scandinavia we have been working very much on the proactive side as well as on the reactive side. People grow tired of you if you act as a watchdog that bites every day. If you represent children and you are going to be a spokesperson for children, you must also represent the vision of the children for the future. That combination is very important.

A role in childproofing of legislation, policy and practice.

3.2.20 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • The Children's Commissioner should act as a watchdog for the human rights of children, assess existing and new legislation and policy to make sure it complies with domestic and international human rights standards and submit proposals and recommendations to Government on any matter affecting children's rights.

3.2.21 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner has a number of roles; to raise the profile of children's issues and children's rights generally, to take an overview of the impact of all legislation, policies and procedures on children across all services and to play a key role in assisting, supporting, guiding and monitoring the Assembly in carrying out a number of its key roles and duties in relation to children.

3.2.22 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • The Commissioner should childproof existing and new legislation.
  • The Commissioner should analyse and comment on proposed Government legislation and policy to ensure that children have an effective means of redress when their rights are disregarded.

3.2.23 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • All Government departments will have a forward planning policy and everything that they do will need to be child proofed - the legislation that will be passed, the housing estates and schools that will be built and the services that will be provided. The Children's Commissioner needs to be the touchstone of policy.

3.2.24 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We want the Commissioner to deal with four specific issues. One is the need for the childproofing of legislative policy and practice.

3.2.25 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly of Wales said:

  • I am sure that one of the Commissioner's priorities will be to improve our relationship and working with young people to ensure that their views are taken into account in our policy development.
  • To date we have failed miserably as an Assembly to incorporate the views of our young people in our policies, procedures and systems. The Children's Commissioner will probably look at that at some stage and make recommendations to us.

3.2.26 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • It would be the responsibility of the Commissioner - having influenced the development of policy - to ensure that the bodies with a statutory responsibility to deliver those policies, do so. That is an issue of compliance.
  • We want the Commissioner to be able to come back to Committees such as this, for example, and report that a certain policy does not work or that the bodies are failing to implement a particular policy.
  • Policy development would not then be a dead thing. It would actually be a dynamic thing that is constantly changing through the intervention and support of the Commissioner who would make sure that it continues to be relevant and appropriate.
  • The Commissioner can objectively say that one part of the system is working well, or that another is failing, or that a policy that engages those two elements is missing. The Commissioner needs to take that overview.
  • The real challenge for a Commissioner is not simply to make legislation childproof. There must be communication with young people to ensure that they are informing the Commissioner's words and actions.

3.2.27 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • My task as Ombudsman is to monitor the legislation going through Parliament to see if it is in the best interests of children.
  • Despite rhetoric to the contrary, children are not high priority in policy making or in the allocation of budgetary or other resources. That is what we are faced with in a modern society in Norway.
  • The responsibility to make changes lies with Parliament not with the Ombudsman. We have worked on the changes that have been made to child policy in Norway and we are happy with what is happening.

A role in relation to juvenile justice.

3.2.28 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • Unless the Children's Commissioner is given a specific power to deal with reserved matters it will be very difficult for that person to do any work on the area.

3.2.29 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner should have responsibility for all children in Northern Ireland in the juvenile justice system at whatever level.

3.2.30 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • It is crucial that the Commissioner's remit includes promoting the interests of young people in the youth justice system because that overlaps with so many other areas.
  • Take the example of a young person who breaks a window in a children's home and is sent to a juvenile justice centre. The Commissioner's powers should not end there.

3.2.31 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • We would certainly be very concerned if the Children's Commissioner were prevented in any way from having juvenile justice as part of his or her remit. Criminal justice matters do arise.

3.2.32 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • To have any fluency and real efficacy the function of a Children's Commissioner must be one that does not draw any traditional barriers across the experience of children when their fate is in the hands of other agencies, including the court system.

3.2.33 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • It is our intention that the Commissioner has responsibility for all children's issues, including reserved matters.
  • If reserved powers in relation to children within the system - and also children on probation - came under the remit of the Commissioner, I do not feel, given the size of the population, that the numbers would be significant.
  • The other area about which they are concerned is "kids who get into trouble" - children who need support after coming face-to-face with the juvenile justice system.

3.2.34 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • We hoped that the Commissioner would have an opportunity to scrutinise how the police treat children and the policies that the police employ towards children. The Commissioner would comment on those areas and make recommendations on whether they were adequate or inadequate, and, in the light of that, look to improve systems for children.
  • We want the Commissioner to be able to comment on issues of criminal justice, to look at the attitudes of, and policies pursued by, the police, and to look at accessible avenues for children's complaints against the police, so that these issues can be brought to the fore. Children's experiences of the criminal justice system can be brought to the fore, and recommendations can be made, if necessary, on how practice should be improved.

3.2.35 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • In a post-conflict situation you must ensure that the system is available and trustworthy. The police, the court system and advisers must be trusted. It is my task to ensure that it is working for the best interests of the child.

A voice for young people.

3.2.36 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • The Children's Commissioner should promote a culture of children's rights and engage with children when conducting investigations and when devising children's policies.

3.2.37 The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland said:

  • Ensure that the voices of children and young people are heard. There can be no substitute for children being their own advocates as part of a direct consultation process.
  • A Children's Commissioner would not be a substitute for consulting with children, there would need to be a close working relationship and understanding between the Equality Commission and the Children's Commissioner. The Children's Commissioner would have a very important, challenging and monitoring role to ensure that consultation was undertaken by the public authorities.

3.2.38 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • Too often children have no mechanisms to make their voices heard. They do not have a vote, a union or a complaints system to access the way adults do. They are totally dependent on us as adults to raise their concerns and deal with them on their behalf. As such, we feel it is our duty to demand the full protection of their rights.
  • A main task of the Commissioner would be to engage with and consult children directly. We have an opportunity here to create an excellent model of practice in how we communicate with children.

3.2.39 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • There must be a breaking down of barriers so that access to the consultation is open to as many young people as possible.
  • There must also be a complete change in attitudes and ways of thinking, owing to the fact that young people and adults almost speak different languages. That must be reflected in materials and resources produced by young people on the subject of the Children's Commissioner.
  • He or she must also be easily accessible, both physically and mentally, so that young people's minds are relaxed.
  • The role must not be tokenistic, something also true of young people's participation if real change is sought.
  • Our message is that young people can and want to be involved and can provide ideas. After all, it is about our future.
  • We suggest having sub-committees of young people, and even other sub-committees, so that everybody is approached.
  • Young people must be listened to; we need support groups.
  • If we are going to be the future, why not change things? Why not let us have a say in our future?
  • Create sub-groups, other youth workers and sub-committees et cetera can link back to the Commissioner.
  • There should be a link between young people and the Commissioner so that the Commissioner can represent us at a political level.
  • If we had a sub-group we could raise awareness. A sub-group to shadow the Commissioner's office. We could educate and raise awareness - tell young people that the Commissioners are out there and that they will help. We want a sub-group to act as a medium between children and the Commissioner.
  • It would be pointless having a Commissioner if young people do not know about him.
  • The Commissioner could definitely play a positive role in promoting active youth councils in every area.
  • Communication could be improved through less jargon, less formality, a hotline and posters in youth clubs in a language young people can understand and new age technology, eg website and diary. Young people relate to slang.

3.2.40 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • A structure through which access to young people can and should be mobilised could be of use to a Children's Commissioner.
  • The Commissioner should actively engage and consult with children as a source of advice and information.
  • The system, the parents and the child need to come together to enable communication to take place.
  • Ask young people what they want, negotiate with them, get a good mix of what they want and what adults are willing to put up with.

3.2.41 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • The overall aim of a Commissioner for Children should be to listen to, think about, and act more effectively for, children.

3.2.42 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • This will be an enormous step forward for Northern Ireland and it will mean that we will have a voice for children at the highest level.

3.2.43 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The young people involved in VOYPIC are very excited about the prospect of a Children's Commissioner. They have a lot to say about a Children's Commissioner. They have many thoughts and views on how they would like to work alongside him. They do not want to be told what to do. They want to work with the Commissioner and inform him.
  • Volunteers on our management committee lead the organisation. They tell us what is happening in care and feel strongly that they should have a role in working with the Commissioner.
  • Young people are forthright when they are asked for comments and they are clear about what they want to say.
  • They want the position to be accessible and not just "somebody up there somewhere". They feel it important to have someone who will listen to what they have to say and do something about it.
  • The children say that no matter what they say or where they say it, nobody takes any account of them. For example, schools just do what they want without listening to the pupils.
  • They want a Children's Commissioner who they can ask why things have not been implemented and who will represent their views on how things are to change. We cannot involve young people and then not follow through on it.

3.2.44 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • He needs to keep in touch and talk to young people about what they want him to do.
  • The Commissioner is supposed to help children who find it difficult to find their voices.

3.2.45 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • One of the real challenges for us as a society - and indeed all societies - is to develop effective mechanisms that allow young people and children to articulate their views.
  • Engagement with children will become very important.

3.2.46 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • One challenge is to have extensive contact with children which is one of the main things that Parliament wanted us to have. We have developed several ways of communicating with children, which we call "creating dialogue instruments".
  • We also have a powerline which is different from a helpline or a hotline. Our contact with the powerline means that children can discuss injustice or things they would like to change, such as bullying or problems with divorce and so on. Proposals to change legislation arise. In those cases we use our dialogue instruments and we ask the children. That material comes to my office for analysis and we can respond through our Internet channel.
  • We have a direct line to text-TV on the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation and we have a slot on a television programme that is broadcast on Sunday mornings.
  • We consult children if a proposal for change is to be put forward to Parliament or if new legislation is to be formulated.
  • One of the dialogue instruments that we are currently testing is the Internet Parliament involving every school council in Norway.
  • Children are portrayed so negatively that it is important for us to let them show us what they can do - if we let them. That is what I call the hidden resources of society.
  • We are saying it is with children that you build a country. The education systems need to be changed, especially secondary education because we are producing losers and creating failures, and that has consequences for life.
  • Resources that children and young people have must be acknowledged and encouraged.

3.3. Duties and Powers

Powers of investigation etc.

3.3.1 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • It is vital that the Commissioner has the power to compel the production of evidence. He/she should have a right of access to children and the power to intervene in court cases, both in private and public law cases in the current manner of the Guardian Ad Litem in public law cases.

3.3.2 The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland said:

  • If there were a Children's Commissioner he or she would use the powers available to them under the anti-discrimination legislation and the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
  • The legislation that already exists could be used effectively by the Children's Commissioner on behalf of children.
  • The Children's Commissioner could also have powers in relation to requiring or seeking information on the way in which various public bodies have meeting the needs of children.
  • We have powers in relation to individual Departments. A Children's Commissioner would have the advantage of an overview of the totality of the picture.

3.3.3 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner must have the necessary powers to challenge the abuse of children's rights and to protect all children against all forms of abuse.
  • In cases where children are being sexually abused in a home the Children's Commissioner should have appropriate powers where he or she could arrive unannounced to the home and spend time alone with the children who could inform of the ongoing abuse and threats. A Commissioner with appropriate powers could examine relevant records and have access to all documents in the home. To effectively investigate, the Commissioner would need to be able to get evidence from staff and children.
  • In cases where children are being bullied at school the Commissioner should have powers to initiate an investigation, approach the school and access all documentation including child protection records, details of all referrals made, police and social services' records and details of actions taken by the school. The Commissioner could then make recommendations for changes in policy and/or legislation to protect all children from bullying.
  • In cases where a child under 16 and in care has mental care problems and has been detained under the mental health legislation in an adult psychiatric ward with no one independent with parental responsibility for the child and the child is not competent to instruct anyone to act on his or her behalf. A Children's Commissioner with the necessary powers could intervene and act in his or her own name on behalf of the child and investigate the extent to which children's rights have been denied in these circumstances

3.3.4 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • The Commissioner should conduct formal inquiries where there have been serious or repeated breaches of children's rights.
  • A Children's Commissioner should have powers of investigation, discovery and subpoena - the powers of investigation are very important.

3.3.5 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • He or she must have power.

3.3.6 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • I understand the Commissioner being given powers of access and investigation.

3.3.7 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We want the Commissioner to deal with four specific issues. The first is the co-ordination of ongoing transparent and open investigations - and that means open access to all children.
  • Children and young people in foster care have the right to feel safe and protected from abuse and neglect. The Children's Commissioner could have a role in promoting these rights and investigating any denial of them.
  • It would need to be done with a certain amount of discretion, but there should be an opportunity to scrutinise what happens in fostering as well as in residential care or other secure accommodation.
  • We hope the Commissioner would use whatever statutory resources are available in the first instance, only intervening in exceptional circumstances when those have failed children.
  • I feel the Commissioner could have a specific role in calling for reports and asking searching questions.
  • The Commissioner for Children must have authority and power to investigate issues that are relevant to all children, not just children who have difficulties. He must have the power to act on any findings.
  • A Children's Commissioner should have the remit of monitoring and evaluating the effectiveness of any work that is being done with young people in custody. The Commissioner should have direct unannounced access to young people in detention.

3.3.8 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • The Commissioner should have the power to require the provision of information on the disclosure of documents.
  • The Commissioner's powers should enable him or her to issue a compliance notice in respect of any recommendation contained in a formal report and all bodies over which the Commissioner has jurisdiction should be equally bound to comply. Any organisation not complying would have to publish its reasons for not doing so. The Commissioner would be able to ask statutory bodies to exercise any enforcement powers that they have, should it prove necessary.
  • The Commissioner's powers have been developed in stages, but we have got much of what the Committee asked for.
  • The Health and Social Services Committee will be receiving an annual report and will no doubt take the opportunity to explore whether the Children's Commissioner has the necessary power to operate and fulfil his functions satisfactorily. I expect there will be an ongoing review of powers.

3.3.9 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • There would be a legal problem if a Children's Commissioner determined complaints rather than investigating or assisting the complaint.
  • A further concern relates to the potential for fragmentation. There is in the proposal the potential for unravelling the Equality Commission or for other groups to seek equivalent special provision, for example, the elderly or people with learning disabilities. I suggest therefore a narrower remit in terms of the Children's Commissioner using legal powers of investigation and enforcement.
  • Investigations are hugely resource expensive. They are not things that you can walk into, take a couple of notes and walk out with a definitive judgement. They are very demanding and a lot of expertise is required in them.
  • My office can have no involvement in the public arena. That becomes a weakness for a Children's Commissioner who might wish to publicise issues and bring them to the attention of the public.
  • You might wish to see a Children's Commissioner go out and see a problem and immediately embark, without anyone complaining, on an investigation of how a service is operated or how a policy affects young people.

3.3.10 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • From my experience in Norway I can see that there is one big challenge and that is how the legislation is framed.
  • Conflict is sometimes outside the mandate of the general Ombudsman, because it is a matter of principle. I have the power to investigate these cases.
  • I can also suggest a change in legislation through Government and Parliament. In any given year several proposals for changes to legislation will have been initiated by the Ombudsman's Office.
  • We are not allowed to intervene in family affairs although we do when a child calls us who has been beaten or sexually abused. We cannot say then that we are not helping a child because we are. There is backing for that in the legislation.
  • We do have a private sector which does not necessarily have evil thoughts about exploiting children or young ones. It is a commercial interest, however, and for many of them the pressure is great. Some conflict with the expressed values of society. While those values are not reflected in concrete regulations, we have had, among other things, to bring about a change in attitudes. I have the freedom to address the President of Nokia or another industry and call them for meetings. If they do not follow my advice, I can use a power that is not contained in the Act. I can say to the media that I had a meeting with the president of a company who declined to co-operate with children.
  • We must have investigation methods which are respectful towards children.
  • No one can hide information from the office. We have never experienced that. If we need details of the investigation or background detail, we get it.

Powers in relation to legal proceedings.

3.3.11 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • The Commissioner must have the legislative powers to make changes across different sectors and services which at times appear at odds with one another.
  • Will the Commissioner have legislative power?

3.3.12 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • It would not save costs if the Children's Commissioner were involved in court cases. That would entail an extra team of lawyers - an extra party to proceedings - extra delay and above all extra costs.

3.3.13 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • There are already structures both to challenge existing law and to identify gaps in it. Only when those are exhausted would the Commissioner resort, in his own right, to taking legal action. If we saw that as a primary function, it would be an extremely costly and time-consuming process.
  • Only in situations where there was a benefit for all children or a point of principle was at stake that had not already been established would the Commissioner take legal action. I do not envisage his having a role in existing law to take cases because there are other agencies to do that.

3.3.14 The Chairman of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly of Wales said:

  • If there was a point of principle where we felt that there was a breach of an individual's right there would be an opportunity for the Children's Commissioner to take that as a type of test case, perhaps through a legal challenge. We were anxious that the Children's Commissioner should look at broad approaches and not be bogged down with individual details.

3.3.15 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • The legal protection of children should be worked out by participating in the legal framework available under domestic law, involving the Human Rights Act 1998 and the equality provision of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
  • He or she should have power of referral to other bodies and a right to receive a report on how the referral has been dealt with. If dissatisfied with the response the Commissioner could initiate legal proceedings, if appropriate.
  • I could see a role for the Commissioner in supporting a child in a legal challenge, but I do not think that the courts would be comfortable if their jurisdiction was subordinated to a Children's Commissioner.

3.3.16 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • If I had to appear officially in court in Norway, or somewhere else, I would need to reduce the proactive side. I would use more resources and need more staff and lawyers to work on those cases. I could appear officially in court but that would completely change the remit of the office. Moreover, the court system would never accept it because it wants the Ombudsman to be outside the court system. We analyse a case afterwards, and when we suggest a change in practice or criticise the court, that is taken into consideration.
  • We are not allowed to intervene in court proceedings or in cases in process in local administration. I can analyse the cases afterwards to see if they have been handled in accordance with practice and legislation. I can come up with proposals for changing the outcome or I can criticise it but I cannot take part in proceedings.

Duties on research, information and statistics.

3.3.17 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • Ideally the Commissioner would be empowered to conduct research into children's lives, to collect information and statistics and produce an annual report.

3.3.18 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • Research on children's rights should be commissioned and published.

3.3.19 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • We need much research before we can talk authoritatively about what the needs are in Northern Ireland.

3.3.20 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • All our organisations are increasingly recognising the impact that good research and information can have. It is important that someone sees what the various parts look like together and that the Commissioner has an overview of all children.
  • If he were sitting down to do an annual report, the missing areas would be easily identifiable. It would also be helpful if the Commissioner were to have the capacity to undertake specific pieces of (research) work.
  • We are quite good at the identification of research, information and services, but we struggle to learn the lessons from that information and put those lessons into practice. I feel the Commissioner would have a key role in ensuring that something practical came of that.
  • A Children's Commissioner should be the driving force behind commissioning research into effective forms of practice, to reduce factors that lead to offending behaviour and criminal activity.

3.4 Interfacing and Accountability

Relationship with existing bodies.

3.4.1. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • A Memorandum of Understanding will probably need to be drawn up between the Children's Commissioner and a variety of other bodies with an interest in children's rights including the Human Rights Commission.
  • The Commissioner will be able to ensure that joined-up planning takes place and that everyone is working together for the good of children.
  • The Human Rights Commission is in favour of the various bodies in this field acting together to produce leaflets and information about their respective roles.

3.4.2 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner would interface with the Human Rights Commissioner, the Equality Commission and other groups of that nature. Memorandums of Understanding would need to be taken forward. Without a Children's Commissioner, there is no one to bring people around a table and ensure that there is co-ordination between services. The Children's Commissioner would play an overarching role.
  • Memorandums of Understanding must be drawn up between the Children's Commissioner and Government Departments.

3.4.3 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • It should be ensured that the community and voluntary sectors are actively involved in making decisions on issues relating to children.
  • The post should challenge every Government Department in how it impacts on children.
  • Different Commissions develop articles of agreement, memorandums of agreement, protocols and so forth to avoid replication or duplication of work.

3.4.4 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • All Government departments will have a forward planning policy and everything that they do will need to be child proofed - the legislation that will be passed, the housing estates and schools that will be built and the services that will be provided. The Children's Commissioner needs to be the touchstone of policy.
  • The Commissioner will need to become au fait with the workings of boards, trusts, Departments, NGOs and statutory bodies.

3.4.5 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • There must be machinery to allow a Commissioner to take advantage of the views of the different children's organisations.
  • At present there is a fragmentation of services across the board, and if the role of the Commissioner is to look at that and co-ordinate it properly then there may be savings made.

3.4.6 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • We were keen to make the Children's Commissioner complementary. We did not want to overlap with people - we wanted to make the role complementary.

3.4.7 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • It would be very important to establish protocol so that we could work together. We would need to establish a criteria for deciding whether a complaint was appropriate to the Children's Commissioner or to my office.
  • Working together is something that we are already looking at with the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission.

3.4.8 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • A new institution for children will always mean conflict with the Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commissioner or someone else.
  • You must be clear about the bodies and the role and you must act with openness. However, one should not allow the office to fall between two stools - it should be lifted up.
  • The task is one of public administration of bureaucrats at a local, municipal and national level.
  • There is a broad international dimension to the office. The European Network of Ombudsmen for Children (ENOC) meets annually to discuss common interests in a "league forum".
  • If you represent children and you are going to be a spokesperson for children, you must also represent the vision of the children for the future. That combination is very important.

Accountability.

3.4.9 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We believe that the best way for the Commissioner to be accountable is to be directly accountable to the Assembly.
  • There should be proper accounts and financial records monitored in the same way as other non-departmental bodies.
  • If the powers of the Commissioner were overstepped a ruling could be made through a judicial review.
  • The Commissioner should have duties that he or she can be held accountable for.

3.4.10 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • Why not have a sub-group made up of young people, to which the Commissioner is answerable? The Commissioner should be made accountable, and it should be possible to remove and replace him or her for not doing the job properly.
  • Will the Commissioner be answerable to Government? A bureaucratic obstacle would be created if the Commissioner had to answer to the First and the Deputy First Ministers.

3.4.11 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • There are lines of accountability to us, but the lines of accountability to children and young people in Wales are far more important than the political lines of accountability.
  • The Assembly wanted the Children's Commissioner to be as independent as possible, but his power comes from being appointed by a set of politicians, so he is answerable to them. Ultimately the Children's Commissioner is answerable to the First Minister in Wales.

3.4.12 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner's real accountability would be to the Assembly.
  • The Committee might want to look at whether the Ombudsman and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints have a role in assisting in circumstances where people feel that there has been abuse of power by the Children's Commissioner.
  • The Children's Commissioner would have access to relevant Committees of the Assembly and be able to tell them if X, Y or Z statutory body is failing.

Annual and other reports.

3.4.13 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner should produce an annual report on the status of children and young people in Northern Ireland measured against the rights outlined in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
  • Ideally the Commissioner would be empowered to conduct research into children's lives, to collect information and statistics and produce an annual report.
  • We believe that the Commissioner should report the performance of its functions to the Assembly during the year.
  • The Commissioner should appear twice a year before the Assembly and as required by a Standing Committee.

3.4.14 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • I see the Commissioner as being someone who will give a report to the Assembly as to what is going on in the community.
  • The Children's Order Advisory Committee would be an excellent body that the Commissioner could relate to and would take an annual report from.

3.4.15 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We feel there is a role for the Commissioner in celebrating the progress being made and the success stories coming out of foster care.
  • One of the priorities of a Children's Commissioner should be to produce an annual report on the welfare of Northern Ireland's children. If accurate and realistic data from all the services were carefully collated and fed back, we should be better placed to make a good job of providing appropriate children's services rather than letting both them and their families fall through the net as at present.

3.4.16 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • The Health and Social Services Committee will now monitor the progress of the Commissioner. He is required to produce an annual report and to bring that to the Clerk of the Committee once a year. The report will then be debated in plenary session.
  • The Commissioner is required by the Care Standards Act 2000 to produce an annual report. The annual report is to the Assembly as a whole, but it comes to us first.

3.4.17 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • The parliamentarians must respect what we are doing and listen to and read about it. I deliver a political report every year.

3.5. Independence and Good Practice

Independence.

3.5.1 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • One of the arguments for having a separate Children's Commissioner office in Northern Ireland is that, for a start, we have a chance for something new and vital, which would allow children to be seen.
  • There are many arguments in favour of the Children's Commissioner's office becoming a separate body, although the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has not taken a position on that.

3.5.2 The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland said:

  • I am clear that there would not be any advantage to be gained by placing the Children's Commissioner within the Equality Commission. Such advantages would only accrue if the existing work of the Commission and the proposed work of the Commissioner overlapped in a sufficient number of ways to realise economies or to boost the work of both.
  • From the point of view of the Commission, the independence of a Commissioner for Children would be of prime importance. Such a role would require that the challenge and oversight function be exercised in a way independent of government departments or public bodies. It would be imperative that the role and the function of the Commissioner be clearly defined within the context of the Equality and Human Rights legislation and the Children Order (NI) 1995.

3.5.3 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • One quality crucial for a Children's Commissioner is independence. There are enough children in Northern Ireland to both need and deserve an independent Commissioner.

3.5.4 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • He or she should act as an independent watchdog.

3.5.5 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The independence of the Children's Commissioner could act as a catalyst in helping to promote interagency co-operation in that very difficult area where complaints or allegations have been made.
  • The Commissioner must remain independent of Government but maintain close and effective working relationships with all Government Departments.
  • Our steering group, and it is made up of young people directly involved, feels that a Children's Commissioner must be independent. They want someone who will be independent of the Government but who will have the power to act.
  • Young people are definite that the Commissioner should be independent and that he should not just be there to "rubber stamp" things.

3.5.6 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner should be independent and have statutory powers.
  • Because of the independence of the role of a Children's Commissioner it seems that there has been a focus on the investigative role that will draw him or her into the dark detail. In fact, the ambition for the post is to be above the dark detail.
  • It is important that the Commissioner is not accountable and has the independence to say, for example, that the Department of the Environment is failing children. If the Commissioner were reporting to a Department then there would be a problem in terms of that independence.

3.5.7 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • No one can instruct me as Ombudsman.

Parents' rights v children's rights.

3.5.8 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • We are very aware of the potential for conflict between parents' rights and children's rights. It is fair to say that, to date, children's voices have not been heard enough when decisions are made about their future. We are strongly in favour of the Gillick principle, which states that as soon as a young person becomes mature enough to be able to express an informed opinion about his future, he should be allowed to express that opinion, and it should be taken into serious account by the decision makers.
  • It is very sad that children's rights are often discussed in the context of the extent to which they conflict with parents' rights. In the main, parents' rights and children's rights go hand in hand.

3.5.9 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • It is also vital that the Commissioner consults parents.

3.5.10 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • Parents need to be helped in order to ensure that the child's rights are met.

3.5.11 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • It is important that adults who play a significant part in a child's life continue to be part of it.

3.5.12. The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • He will also need to be able to consult with parents and others involved in the promotion of children's rights.
  • The Children's Commissioner must ensure a balance is struck between the rights of children in care and those of their carers and their families, something that is very difficult to achieve.
  • It is a balance of the rights of the children in care and those of foster carers and their families, including their birth children. It is not as simplistic as it seems on the surface.
  • There are obviously connections between parents and the Commissioner, and it would be important that the Commissioner remains in contact with parents. With regard to representing foster carers or parents, our view is that the Commissioner's role should be specifically dedicated to children.
  • A Commissioner could make a difference by adhering to the principle that parents are an integral part of children's upbringing when he is carrying out any investigation or advocacy.
  • We strongly feel that monitoring, investigating and advocacy on behalf of children by the Commissioner should have a parent dimension to it.
  • When I say that I would like a parent dimension to any investigation by the Commissioner, I mean that it should not just consider a child with special or individual needs or difficulties, but look at the family structure. That could tell the Commissioner about the practices, procedures or systems that are not in place.

3.5.13 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • There was an enormous debate in the seventies over whether it would take away parental authority if an Ombudsman's office were set up. It was asked if we were giving children the right to attack their parents.
  • The parents are still the best allies we have in working with children. Parents come to my office for advice. Some of them are there for parents' rights more than children's rights, but we can see that, and we use the time to talk to them and change them not to fight with them. We trust parents to get the message across that parents are not the office's enemies rather our companions.

Experience of other countries.

3.5.14 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • It would be sensible to consider best practice in other countries - we noted reference to the Norwegian Children's Ombudsman. We endorse the need to speak to such people who have wide experience of protecting children's rights.
  • We would also urge those responsible for establishing a Children's Commissioner in Northern Ireland to have close regard to the duties and powers of the Children's Ombudsmen in jurisdictions such as Norway and Sweden.

3.5.15 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • It is important to examine models of good practice that exist elsewhere.
  • The experience of the Norwegian Ombudsman for Children offers one possible approach and it is the preferred model for replication in Northern Ireland.
  • The Norwegian Ombudsman has been instrumental in improving the position of the child in law, for influencing opinion, public administration and decision-makers and has been commended for using different means and methods of conscious-raising and consulting with children. It is recognised as an export item and as a practical model for other countries.
  • A number of Children's Ombudsmen operating in countries, provinces and cities throughout Europe and beyond, replicate, or are based on, the Norwegian Ombudsman. These good practice models can be characterised by their independence - a factor which is recognised as being crucially important by the Council of Europe, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child and the European Network of Ombudsmen for Children.

3.5.16 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We must build on and share experience of good practice.

3.6 Appointment and Resources

Appointment procedures and criteria.

3.6.1 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • The Human Rights Commission calls for a completely independent selection system - one that is independent of Government. In many countries organisations such as our own are established by a body of representatives from the Government and the opposition parties so that there can be no accusation of political patronage.
  • The appointment should be consistent with the UN's Paris principles which regulate the establishment of human rights institutions around the world.
  • The Children's Commissioner should have a high profile and be somebody who will bring status and respect to the post, as well as being someone who relates well to children themselves.
  • There is a need for somebody who is genuinely committed to children's issues, who knows his/her way around those issues and who has experience working in the field.
  • The post should be widely advertised throughout these islands.

3.6.2 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • The Commissioner must be appointed through an independent selection process, complying with S75 of the NI Act 1998 and the Principles Relating to the Status of National Institutions, approved by the General Assembly of the UN in Resolution 48/134 of 1993.
  • We favour an appointment through an independent system outside of the Assembly. The process should involve children, young people and their parents.
  • It should be an open public appointment using a skills, competence and experience model and it is important to look to the best models elsewhere in regard to appointment.

3.6.3 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • It would be good if the Commissioner had a lot of direct experience of community work, modern training and hands-on experience.
  • We do not want an academic bureaucrat.
  • Qualifications should not really come into it.
  • The Commissioner must be open-minded, non-judgemental and enthusiastic and be able to approach young people and be on the same level as them.
  • Young people must feel the person is approachable and that it is their own post. We therefore suggest they be involved in the interview process and that young people's sub-committees be established.

3.6.4 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • It is vital that an independent panel recruits the Commissioner and that young people are part of the selection process.
  • The Commissioner will need to have the experience, knowledge and skills to enable him or her to be as comfortable talking to nursery children as addressing Members of the Assembly.
  • It is important that the post of Children's Commissioner is not seen as a token gesture but will be filled by someone who will afford the children a voice, a sense of access and a position.

3.6.5 The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Law Society of Northern Ireland said:

  • The job specification does not insist on a lawyer.

3.6.6 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • We feel the Commissioner would need to be someone with the ability to listen and the skills to engage directly with children.
  • He should have experience of working with young people and not be somebody who just works in an office or is a civil servant. He should know what is happening on the ground.
  • The children also think that the post should be filled through an independent process that somebody should not just be picked for the position and that young people should be involved in choosing the person who will do the job.

3.6.7 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • Children and young people were directly involved in the selection of the Commissioner and this was an innovative step in public appointments.
  • The Assembly agreed that an Ad Hoc Committee should be established to advise the Minister on the appointment process, the job specification, and the criteria upon which the applicants should be judged.
  • The Committee thought that personal qualities are more important than formal education.
  • The Committee considered how children could be effectively involved in the selection of the Commissioner. As a result of the Committee's deliberation the Minister invited the Biteback group, which is a body representing young people's organisations in Wales, to facilitate the involvement of young people.
  • There was a very good tie-in on who the young people and the formal panel thought was the best candidate.
  • To communicate with young people is a core criterion.
  • In the public appointments process we try very hard to ensure that there is gender balance, ethnic balance and opportunities for disabled people.

3.6.8 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • The appointment of a Commissioner is a very dynamic task.
  • Establishing a Children's Commissioner takes time but it is important to map the environment and get clarification about how the office would work.
  • To have the confidence of the public, it should be a public appointment process.
  • The process should be open and available to anyone who considers himself or herself competent or eligible. Obviously there would be selection criteria.
  • Maybe the Welsh model of having young people on the panel is a demanding issue that is convincing and credible to young people.

3.6.9 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • When the legislation is in place, the next step is how to identify the person for office. You must apply for the job of Ombudsman in Norway.
  • Candidates are assessed on how they want to shape the office and what their concept of the future is.
  • Candidates are then screened by an independent group and, according to legislation, a name is put forward to the King. In reality that means the Cabinet, and it makes the appointment.
  • In Norway, when the first Ombudsman was to be appointed, there was a big discussion about the person. The person must be visible to the children. The first Ombudsman was a psychologist, although that is not a requirement for the job. He could be a taxi driver, or from any profession, and that's how it should be.

Tenure of appointment.

3.6.10 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • I think that two or three years is too short and 10 years is too long. This is a big job, particularly if part of the focus is ensuring that the person is recognisable to children. If it is a moving head who changes every couple of years, it is going to be very difficult to get that kind of continuity.

3.6.11 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • The Assembly tried to ensure independence by making the Children's Commissioner a one-term-only appointment of seven years.

3.6.12 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • It would be very interesting to have a seven-year programme because this is not going to turn around in a year or two.
  • A seven-year term is quite a sensible model.

3.6.13 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • Around Europe there are different time limits on the office. In Norway you can have two terms - eight years altogether. All three of us who have held the office think that eight years is enough. Sweden has two terms of seven years, which is too long. You need three years to get on top of the job.

Resources for the Commissioner/Office of the Commissioner.

3.6.14 The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission said:

  • The Commissioner will need adequate resources, we are currently provided with £750,000 but we are overspent. The Equality Commission receives ten times more money than the Human Rights Commission. Such standards would need to be taken into account when calculating the funding of a Children's Commissioner.
  • The Children's Commissioner must be adequately resourced and equipped with the necessary powers.

3.6.15 The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland said:

  • If there were to be a Children's Commissioner who was a link between public authorities and those people actually working with children there would have to be considerable resources invested in that.

3.6.16 The first group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • Even when resources are earmarked or ring-fenced to be spent on children we hope that the Commissioner would have a role in ensuring that they are actually spent on children.
  • We are failing our children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child if we do not ensure that the necessary resources are made available.

3.6.17 The Western Young People's Steering Group said:

  • What level of resources - budget and manpower - will be available to the Commissioner's office?

3.6.18 The Derry Children's Commission said:

  • What budget for a Children's Commissioner is a difficult question, as a starting point use what other countries offer.
  • In the Republic the Ombudsman receives £1.3 million annually with an additional £3 million.
  • If we are taking a Children's Commissioner seriously we must give him or her adequate resources, which could save money in the long run.
  • If you want to avoid too much bureaucracy and wastage of money, the Commissioner must be resourced properly.
  • Identifying best practice would be part of the analysis of the size of budget needed, given the population and the remit decided for the Commissioner. There is a range of Ombudsmen and Commissioners in the broader European setting which could be used as a benchmark.

3.6.19 The Northern Ireland Branch of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW (NI)) said:

  • You need to look at what is happening in Norway, Sweden and the 10 to 15 other countries that have an Ombudsman or a Commissioner.

3.6.20 The second group co-ordinated by Child Care Northern Ireland said:

  • To make a difference in children's lives, the Commissioner must have the necessary powers and resources to enable him to carry out his duties.

3.6.21 The Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales said:

  • The initial budget allocation for the Children's Commissioner was £800,000 in the first year. The Minister will make more money available, as the Commissioner's job develops, and we can scrutinise what resources are needed to make the job an effective one.
  • The Children's Commissioner has no fixed staffing numbers yet. At present he is consulting with young people and others about the staff and offices that he will need. The National Assembly for Wales has outlined the expected broad functions of the Commissioner and the staff expected to deal with those functions.
  • It is a matter for our budget planning round to decide how much money the Children's Commissioner gets.

3.6.22 The Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland said:

  • It is hard to predict the budget necessary for the Children's Commissioner without knowing what the total remit of the post will be. At a recent conference in Scotland, I listened to the appointed Commissioner for Children in Wales and he has ambitions to appoint 25 people. Whether that will be supported by a budget of £800,000, I cannot say - it will depend on the people who are recruited.
  • If the Children's Commissioner is going to have a wide remit and range of responsibilities the resources must be available to meet that.

3.6.23 The Norwegian Children's Ombudsman said:

  • My staff is multi-disciplined and is made up of lawyers, psychologists, educationalists, a sociologist and one medical doctor who is also a lawyer. They were not recruited primarily for their educational or professional backgrounds but because they are dedicated to children's interests.
  • From August there will be 12.5 people in the office plus one or two additional staff. Altogether we will have 14 or 15 people.
  • Our budget is seven million Norwegian Kroner, which is about £700,000. In April each year we deliver a proposal for the following year's budget. We are formally affiliated to the administrative side of the Government through the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs. However, it is Parliament, in their budget discussions that decides on the amount we receive.
  • Although we have limited resources, I do not want a large office.
TOP

4. CONSIDERATION OF EVIDENCE

4.1 In considering the evidence before it the Committee addressed each of the issues set out in Section 2 above.

4.2 General

Is there a case for a Children's Commissioner?

4.2.1 All those who gave evidence to the Inquiry or made written submissions supported the proposal for a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The Treaty Body for the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which was ratified by the UK Government in 1991, and the Council of Europe have both called for the establishment of independent offices for children.

4.2.2 Organisations in the children's voluntary care sector under "Putting Children 1st" have campaigned for some time for a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The HSSPS Committee in a recent Assembly report also recommended a Commissioner for Children. In the Assembly debates on the announcement by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister on 29 January 2001 and the Motion on the subject on 30 January 2001 there was general support for the proposal for a Children's Commissioner.

4.2.3 The experience of other countries, including Norway and Wales, where a Children's Commissioner has already been established supports the case.

4.2.4 The Committee welcomes the proposal by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to appoint a Children's Commissioner and concludes that there has been universal agreement on the proposal and a strong case has been made for the appointment of a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland.

Should the appointment of a Children's Commissioner form part of a wider strategy for children?

4.2.5 The proposal for a Children's Commissioner in Northern Ireland is within the context of an overall strategy to address the rights and needs of children.

4.2.6 The Committee welcomes the intention by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to develop a strategy that sets out a vision for children in Northern Ireland and that the appointment of a Children's Commissioner would be an integral part of the strategy.

4.3 Roles and Responsibilities

Should the Commissioner's role relate to all children under 18 years or to a different age or other group?

4.3.1 Virtually everyone who gave evidence to the Committee called for the role of the Commissioner to extend to all children under 18 years. However, in Wales the Commissioner's role extends to those up to 24 years old who are leaving care and are receiving post care services from the local authority. The current consultation in Northern Ireland on the Children Leaving Care Bill, which deals with proposals to support care leavers until they are at least 21 years old, was noted.

4.3.2 In Wales the Commissioner also has a role in relation to children who are ordinarily resident there but who may be receiving services, such as health care, outside Wales.

4.3.3 The Committee recommends that the role of the Commissioner for Children should extend to all children under 18 years of age.

4.3.4 The Committee recommends that the role of the Commissioner for Children should extend to those up to 21 years old who are leaving care and receiving post care services, if the proposals for a Children Leaving Care Bill are enacted.

4.3.5 The Committee recommends that the role of the Commissioner for Children should also extend to children who are ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland but who are receiving services, such as health, education, or other services, outside Northern Ireland.

Should the Commissioner have a broad remit covering all aspects of children's lives?

4.3.6 Those who gave evidence to the Committee called for the role of the Commissioner to be wide ranging. The need to monitor the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child was seen as a core element of that role but it was argued that the Commissioner needed to have a much broader remit. The Commissioner was seen as not just a watchdog for the rights of children, but as someone who would be their champion and their advocate and promote awareness of their rights in society.

4.3.7 Young people who gave evidence felt that the role of the Commissioner should not be restricted to certain issues or groups of people but should be for every young person.

4.3.8 The Commissioner was seen as having a role in promoting a culture of children's rights through education and acting as a source of information and advice both for children and for those who work with them.

4.3.9 The role of the Commissioner in Wales was restricted initially to dealing with children in social care settings because of legislative constraints but those constraints are now being removed to allow the much broader role.

4.3.10 The Ombudsman for Children in Norway relishes and values his breadth of remit as an essential tool to achieve positive results for children in Norway.

4.3.11 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a broad remit covering all aspects of children's lives to enable him/her to be a champion for all children.

4.3.12 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role to act as an advocate for children's rights and monitor the delivery of these rights in Northern Ireland.

4.3.13 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role to promote a culture of children's rights through fostering education and acting as a source of information and advice.

Should the Commissioner have a role in childproofing legislation, policy and practice to ensure compliance with human rights standards?

4.3.14 There was general agreement among those who gave evidence to the Committee that the Commissioner for Children should have a role in childproofing legislation, policy and practice. The need for the Commissioner to be able to assess existing legislative and other provisions as well as new or proposed legislation and policies was highlighted. The need for the Commissioner to have a role in bringing forward proposals and recommendations in relation to legislation, policy or practice was also stressed.

4.3.15 The Ombudsman for Children in Norway particularly values this aspect of his remit as an area where he can make a significant impact on issues that are of concern to children.

4.3.16 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role in childproofing legislation through scrutinising and commenting upon all proposed legislation in relation to its impact on children.

4.3.17 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role in assessing existing legislation and bringing forward proposals and recommendations for change, where appropriate.

4.3.18 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role in considering and commenting on the impact of policies and practices on children and young people.

Should the Commissioner have a role in relation to reserved matters and particularly to children in the juvenile justice system?

4.3.19 There were very strong views among those who gave evidence to the Committee that the role of the Commissioner must extend to reserved matters including juvenile justice issues. Organisations indicated that they would be very concerned if the Commissioner was prevented from having a role on juvenile justice or if artificial barriers prevented the Commissioner from carrying out a full role for all children in Northern Ireland.

4.3.20 The legislation in Wales initially prevented the Commissioner there from taking on a role in relation to juvenile justice but this is now being rectified through legislation.

4.3.21 The Committee recommends that the role of the Commissioner for Children should extend to reserved matters including the juvenile justice system.

4.3.22 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role in considering and reporting on primary and subordinate legislation and policies relating to reserved matters.

4.3.23 The Committee recommends that the Northern Ireland Office should provide the resources for the Commissioner's role in relation to reserved matters.

How can a Commissioner give a voice to young people?

4.3.24 The need to give a strong voice to young people was seen by all those who gave evidence to the Committee as a vital and fundamental role of the Commissioner. The young people who gave direct evidence to the Committee and the organisations, which reported their views, made the case very strongly. The young people felt that it was important to have someone who will listen to what they have to say and do something about it. They called for a complete change in attitudes and ways of thinking and pointed to the differences in language used by adults and young people. They called for sub-groups of young people to relate to the Commissioner's office.

4.3.25 The Ombudsman for Children in Norway clearly identifies with children and looks to children to identify the issues that are of most concern to them.

4.3.26 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a duty to create and promote new and innovative opportunities for young people to make their views heard. This could include, for example, working through schools, youth clubs, youth councils and other fora, and involve the use of Information Technology.

4.3.27 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should work to improve the means of communication with children and young people through, for example, promoting the use of a language that young people understand without jargon and formality.

4.3.28 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should consider supporting the establishment of a children's forum to relate to the work of the office of the Commissioner.

4.4. Duties and Powers

Should the Commissioner have investigatory powers including power to undertake inquiries, to enter premises, to subpoena witnesses, to issue compliance notices, etc?

4.4.1 There was unanimous agreement among those who gave evidence to the Committee that the Commissioner for Children needed the relevant powers to investigate complaints and challenge any abuse of children's rights. These include the power to conduct formal inquiries, to compel the production of evidence, to subpoena witnesses, and to enter premises.

4.4.2 Witnesses felt strongly that the Commissioner should have open access to all children. This includes the ability to investigate allegations of abuse in children's homes or bullying in schools, as well as those in the juvenile justice system, such as young people in detention. There was a recognition that, while discretion was required, the Commissioner also needed to have access to young people who are fostered.

4.4.3 Witnesses, however, urged that, rather than becoming involved in numerous investigations, the Commissioner should use existing statutory resources in the first instance and only intervene in exceptional circumstances where those have failed children.

4.4.4 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have adequate powers to investigate complaints or to initiate investigations or inquiries in respect of any aspect of children's rights, where other avenues of redress have failed.

4.4.5 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children's powers of investigation should include the power to require the disclosure of documents, to subpoena witnesses, and to issue compliance notices.

4.4.6 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should, as part of any investigation or inquiry, have power to enter any premises or establishment where children are, including places of detention and all places where children are in the care of public authorities.

Should the Commissioner have power to intervene in legal proceedings that may have implications for children's rights? Should the Commissioner have power to take cases in his/her own right?

4.4.7 There was general consensus that the Commissioner for Children should have power to take legal cases or to intervene in court cases. However, there were concerns that if the Commissioner were to do this as one of the primary functions of the office it would be extremely costly and time consuming and would detract from the main role of a Commissioner. Those who gave evidence to the Committee were very clear that there were structures already in place both to challenge existing law and to identify gaps in it. Most argued that it was only when these avenues are exhausted that there would be a role for the Commissioner to take legal action in his own right.

4.4.8 It was noted that the Ombudsman for Children in Norway does not have power to intervene in court cases or to take cases in his own right. However, when a case is completed he can call for the disclosure of all papers and may make recommendations to the court or to the Parliament in relation to changes in legislation.

4.4.9 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have the power to intervene in legal cases or to take a case in his/her own right. The power in relation to legal cases should be used strategically by the Commissioner where there is a potential benefit for all children or a specific group of children, or where a point of principle is at stake.

Should the Commissioner have a duty to undertake or commission research on issues of concern to children and to collect information and compile statistics relating to children?

4.4.10 Many of those who gave evidence to the Committee called for the Commissioner to have a role in undertaking or commissioning research and compiling information and statistics. The organisations recognised the potential impact of good research and information and the value of this in providing the Commissioner with an overview of all children.

4.4.11 The HSSPS Committee, in its report to the Assembly on Residential Care and Secure Accommodation for Children in Northern Ireland, envisaged a Children's Commissioner compiling information on the state of children in Northern Ireland drawing statistics from all sectors of Government, statutory and voluntary bodies.

4.4.12 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a responsibility to highlight, to the relevant agencies, areas where additional research and statistics are required and a duty to undertake or commission research, if deemed necessary, on issues of concern to children.

4.4.13 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a duty to collate information and compile statistics relating to children.

4.5 Interfacing and Accountability

What should be the relationship with existing bodies that have an interest in children's rights?

4.5.1. A number of bodies that currently have a role in relation to children's rights gave evidence to the Committee. These included the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, the Assembly Ombudsman, and the Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency. There was a general recognition that the Commissioner for Children would need to interface with these and other organisations in a practical way. To do this a Memorandum of Understanding would need to be drawn up between the Children's Commissioner and each of these organisations.

4.5.2 The role of the Commissioner for Children was seen as complementing, rather than overlapping with other existing organisations. The importance of the role of the Commissioner for Children in ensuring co-ordination between these organisations for the benefit of children was also stressed to the Committee.

4.5.3 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should monitor the co-ordination of services between organisations that have a role in ensuring children's rights.

4.5.4 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children draw up a Memorandum of Understanding with each organisation with which he/she will interface.

To whom should the Commissioner be accountable?

4.5.5 Those who commented on this issue recommended that the Commissioner for Children should be directly accountable to the Assembly. The Committee also noted that the Commissioner for Children in Wales is appointed by and ultimately accountable to the First Minister in Wales on behalf of the National Assembly for Wales.

4.5.6 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be directly accountable to the Northern Ireland Assembly through the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

Should the Commissioner be required to produce an annual report? Should the Commissioner be required to report to an Assembly Committee?

4.5.7 There was general agreement among those who gave evidence to the Committee that the Commissioner for Children should be required to produce an annual report and present it to the Assembly. The value of such a report on the welfare of children in Northern Ireland was highlighted by a number of witnesses. It was also suggested that the Commissioner for Children should appear twice a year before the Assembly.

4.5.8 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be required to produce an annual report and present it to the Assembly.

4.5.9 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be required to appear before the Committee of the Centre at least once a year to report on the welfare of children in Northern Ireland.

4.6 Independence and Good Practice

Should the Commissioner be independent or part of an existing organisation such as the Equality Commission?

4.6.1 Virtually all the organisations giving evidence to the Committee called for an independent Commissioner. The Committee also explored the alternative of a Commissioner based within an existing organisation, such as the Equality Commission. The Committee concluded that the independence of the Children's Commissioner is of prime importance to ensure that the challenge and oversight function can be exercised independently of government departments and public bodies.

4.6.2 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be independent of all existing organisations and public bodies.

Is there potential for conflict between parents' rights and children's rights?

4.6.3 The potential for conflict between parents' rights and children's rights was raised with a number of the organisations that gave evidence to the Committee including organisations that represent parents. In general there was recognition that there needed to be a balance between parents' rights and children's rights and that in the main they should go hand in hand.

4.6.4 There was also a clear view that the Commissioner for Children should not have a role in relation to parents' rights but that the Commissioner will need to be able to consult with parents or guardians in the promotion of children's rights.

4.6.5 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should not have a direct role in relation to parents' rights but in promoting children's rights the Commissioner should take appropriate account of the views of parents or other guardians.

What lessons can be learned from other countries where Children's Commissioners already exist?

4.6.6 There were many calls by those who gave evidence for the Committee to take cognisance of the experience of other countries when recommending the role and remit of a Commissioner for Children for Northern Ireland. The Committee also benefited from hearing at first hand about the experience of both Wales and Norway.

4.6.7 The Committee concluded that when a Commissioner is appointed there would also be merit in exchanging information on good practice with other countries which have a Commissioner for Children.

4.6.8 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should have a role in identifying and promoting good practice within Northern Ireland and liaising with other countries where a Children's Commissioner already exists, on issues relating to children's rights.

4.7 Appointment and Resources

How should a Commissioner be recruited? What criteria should be used? How should young people be involved in the appointment process?

4.7.1 Those who gave evidence to the Committee called for a completely independent selection process and were very clear that the Commissioner needed to be someone who would bring status and respect to the post. It was argued that it would be more important to have someone who could engage with children rather than insist on candidates having specific professional qualifications.

4.7.2 There were also strong views expressed by many that young people should have a direct involvement in the appointment process. The Committee was impressed by the involvement of a panel of young people in the recent selection process for a Children's Commissioner in Wales.

4.7.3 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be appointed through an independent selection process. This should comply with Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the Principles Relating to the Status of National Institutions, approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in Resolution 48/134 of 1993 (Paris Principles).

4.7.4 The Committee recommends that the criteria for candidates for the post of Commissioner for Children should be based on skills, competence and experience, with an emphasis on the ability to engage directly with children, rather than necessarily having a specific professional or academic qualification.

4.7.5 The Committee recommends that young people should be directly involved in the appointment process. The Committee commends the innovative method used recently in the appointment of the Commissioner for Children in Wales.

What should be the tenure of appointment? Should the Commissioner be eligible for reappointment?

4.7.6 There were mixed views on the optimum tenure of appointment of a Commissioner for Children. It was felt that too short a term would make it difficult to have continuity while too long a term could also cause difficulties. A number of those who gave evidence favoured a medium term of four or five years with the possibility of reappointment for a second term.

4.7.7 There was also support for the alternative option of a longer single-term appointment with no eligibility for reappointment, as is the case in Wales. This is intended to assure the independence of the post as the Commissioner can act without fear or favour of jeopardising his reappointment

4.7.8 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be appointed for a term of four years with the option of an extension for a further four years subject to employment legislation.

4.7.9 The Committee recommends that there should be power to terminate the appointment of the Commissioner for Children before the expiry of the term of office on the grounds of incompetence or misconduct.

What resources should be provided for the Commissioner/Office of the Commissioner?

4.7.10 Most of those who gave evidence to the Committee were reluctant to suggest an exact level of resources for the Commissioner for Children. There was, however, general agreement that the Commissioner needed to be given adequate resources to carry out the remit. Some of those who gave evidence felt that if this did not happen a vital opportunity would be missed and any resources devoted to the office would be wasted. It was suggested that, in setting the budget, account should be taken of what is happening in a number of European countries where a Commissioner for Children has been in existence for some time.

4.7.11 The Committee recommends that the Commissioner for Children should be given adequate resources to carry out the full remit. In setting the initial budget for the Commissioner the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should take account of funding for Commissioners in other European countries bearing in mind any differences in size or population.

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5. CONCLUSIONS

5.1 The Committee welcomes the proposal by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to appoint a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. There are strong arguments in favour of such an appointment and these are supported by the experience of other countries that already have a Children's Commissioner or Ombudsman.

5.2 The Committee also welcomes the intention of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to develop a strategy that sets out a vision for children in Northern Ireland. The appointment of a Children's Commissioner is seen as a core element of that strategy.

5.3 The Committee has examined the potential role and remit of a Children's Commissioner in considerable detail and has made detailed recommendations based on consideration of the evidence from a wide range of interests. We hope that this report will make a positive and constructive contribution to the forthcoming public debate and we look forward to the appointment of a Children's Commissioner at the earliest possible date.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

5.4 The Committee would like to thank warmly all those who gave oral evidence as part of the Inquiry and those who provided written submissions. These contributions were invaluable to the Committee in its deliberations.

5.5 The Committee would also like to express a special word of thanks to Mr Trond Waage, Ombudsman for Children in Norway, and Ms Kirsty Williams AM, Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee in the National Assembly for Wales, for accepting the invitation to come and share their experience with the Committee.

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APPENDIX 1

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 21 March 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Dr Birnie
Mr Cobain
Mrs Courtney
Mr Ervine
Ms Gildernew
Ms Lewsley
Mr McMenamin
Mr C Murphy
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Prof B Dickson ) Northern Ireland
Dr L Moore ) Human Rights Commission

1.

The Chairperson: I appreciate the tight deadline you have been put under, therefore I welcome your attendance.

2.

Prof Dickson: Thank you for the invitation to be here today. We have a draft report, which I cannot present to you today, but I will undertake to make it available to the Committee by tomorrow.

3.

I will briefly outline the duties and powers of the Human Rights Commission and the work we have been able to do in regard to children and young people. That will give the Committee a better appreciation of the need for a Children's Commissioner and what its role should be. The Human Rights Commission came into existence on 1 March, 1999. We are answerable to Westminster, rather than the Northern Ireland Assembly, and we are among 40 recognised institutions of that kind in the world.

4.

Our duties include: keeping under review current law and practice relating to the protection of human rights; advising the Secretary of State and the Assembly's Executive Committee of measures that should be taken to protect human rights; advising the Assembly on whether a Bill is compatible with human rights; promoting an understanding and awareness of the importance of human rights in Northern Ireland; advising the Secretary of State on the scope for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland; doing all we can to ensure the establishment of a joint committee with the Human Rights Commission in the Republic of Ireland; and making a report to the Secretary of State on the effectiveness of the Commission.

5.

We have just submitted that report to the Secretary of State, which may be of interest to the Committee, and I will undertake to make a copy of that available. It may be of interest to you because it outlines some of the difficulties that the Commission has experienced in its first two years of operation. That might highlight pitfalls that you would want a Children's Commissioner to avoid if the post is established.

6.

The Human Rights Commission also has the power to assist individuals to go to court, to take cases to court in its own name and to conduct investigations. Dr Moore, our investigations worker, can address your questions about the investigations that we have conducted to date. Our work for children and young people has included an investigation into the care of children in juvenile justice centres in Northern Ireland. We have also undertaken to respond to the UK's report to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which oversees the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which you referred earlier. In addition, we responded to the Government's consultation on the juvenile justice estate in Northern Ireland, and we submitted comments to the Assembly on the Family Law Bill and the Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill. We have also commented on juvenile justice in the context of the Criminal Justice Review and made a submission to the Burns Review, which deals with academic selection at age 11.

7.

Some of our cases have involved children's rights ¾ for example, the right of a child to have a classroom assistant at an Irish-medium school, and the availability of grammar school places for Protestants in County Down. We also made enquiries about the suicide of a young person in Hydebank Young Offenders Centre in September 2000. Most recently we have produced a child-friendly version of the draft Equality Scheme of the Human Rights Commission.

8.

As many of you know, we are also consulting on what should be in a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. We established a working group to look specifically at how children's rights could be protected in such a Bill. The working group has reported on that issue and I can make a copy available to the Committee.

9.

Some of the issues covered in the working group report include the right of children to better information about their rights, their right to have their voices heard in decisions that affect them, their right to better access to health care and education, and recommendations as to the age of criminal responsibility in Northern Ireland, which is about the lowest in the world at the moment. We have also worked closely with the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, Save the Children Fund, the Children's Law Centre and Amnesty International to promote the Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.

10.

In the work that we have undertaken to date, we have found ourselves obstructed both financially and legally. We do not have the resources to carry out our work in the way that we would wish and we therefore deduce that the Children's Commissioner, whom you are interested in, ought to be adequately funded, otherwise he or she will not be able to carry out the work effectively. Our Commission has no power to intervene in cases as a third party, nor any power to compel people to give us evidence when we are conducting investigations. Those two limitations have significantly frustrated our work to date and we therefore deduce that the Children's Commissioner ought to have those powers if he or she is to be effective.

11.

The Commission believes that there is a need for a Children's Commissioner because several international bodies have called for such an appointment. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has consistently commended the establishment of such offices in various countries, and the Council of Europe in its European Strategy for Children also proposes the appointment of a Commissioner or Ombudsman for Children. We know that children's organisations in Northern Ireland strongly support the recommendation that a Children's Commissioner be established.

12.

To date, the Human Rights Commission has tried to act as a commissioner for children in the absence of a specific appointment. However, given the limits to our resources and powers, there is not a great deal more that we can do for children and young people in the absence of a Children's Commissioner.

13.

The Children's Commissioner should have a high profile and be somebody who will bring status and respect to the post, as well as being someone who relates well to children themselves. The appointment should be consistent with the UN's Paris Principles, which regulate the establishment of human rights institutions around the world. The office of the Children's Commissioner should be a child-friendly organisation. It should have a welcoming environment and an ethos and structure that encourage the participation of children.

14.

A core role of the Children's Commissioner should be to monitor the extent to which the UK Government is honouring its commitment to uphold the standards in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. To carry out effective monitoring, it is vital that the office of the Children's Commissioner be entirely independent of Government.

15.

Children's lives cannot easily be compartmentalised, and joined-up planning for children is needed. It follows that the Children's Commissioner's office will need to have a broad remit, to cover every aspect of children's lives - from health to education, from play to contact with the justice system et cetera. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child covers all those areas. In particular, the Commissioner's role should not be limited to devolved matters, which at the moment would exclude criminal justice, policing issues and juvenile justice issues in general. Such an exclusion would be regrettable. The Commissioner's constituency should include all young people under the age of 18 and the Commissioner's office should be legally obliged to promote equality of opportunity and good relations.

16.

To sum up, the Children's Commissioner should act as a watchdog for the human rights of children. The Commissioner should assess existing and new legislation and policy to make sure that it complies with domestic and international human rights standards. He or she should submit to Government recommendations and proposals on any matter affecting children's rights. When there are human rights issues at stake, he or she should be able to take cases in his or her own name, as well as assisting children to take cases in their name.

17.

The Children's Commissioner should act as an advocate for children's rights in general and should monitor the extent to which those rights are delivered or denied in Northern Ireland. The Commissioner should also carry out and support research into children's rights and assist in formulating and delivering human rights teaching for children.

18.

In general, the Children's Commissioner should promote a culture of children's rights and should actively engage with children when conducting investigations and when devising children's policies. It would be sensible to consider best practice in other countries - we noted your reference, Mr Chairman, to the Norwegian Children's Ombudsman. We endorse the need to speak to such people who have wide experience of protecting children's rights.

19.

The Commissioner will need adequate resources and should have a right of access to all children who are in care. To date, the Human Rights Commission has had a problem in that regard. The Commissioner should have the power to intervene in cases and to compel the production of evidence.

20.

Finally, the Human Rights Commission welcomes the openness and constructiveness of Government in the process to date. We are glad to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. This is an opportunity that should not be lost for children in Northern Ireland, and it is vital that the process of consultation on the role of the Commissioner be inclusive and open. It is important that children themselves be consulted during the process and that sufficient resources are made available to make it a meaningful process.

21.

The Chairperson: Professor Dickson, what are the advantages or disadvantages of giving the Children's Commissioner a broad range of functions?

22.

Prof Dickson: The advantage would be that the person would be able to do the job in an effective manner. The more limited the functions given, the less effective the Children's Commissioner will be ¾ that has been our own experience. It is vital that the Commissioner has the power to compel the production of evidence. He or she should have a right of access to children and the power to intervene in court cases, both in private and public law cases in the current manner of the guardian ad litem in public law cases. It would be a wasted opportunity if the Children's Commissioner were not granted those powers. In years to come, efforts would have to be made to improve and enhance those powers.

23.

The Chairperson: Do you envisage any disadvantages?

24.

Prof Dickson: Although I do not foresee any disadvantages, a Memorandum of Understanding will probably need to be drawn up between the Children's Commissioner and a variety of other bodies with an interest in children's rights, including the Human Rights Commission. From a public expenditure point of view, it would make sense to have co-ordinated action on a specific issue rather than have several bodies performing the same function in relation to children. It would be logical to have collaboration and co-ordination.

25.

The Chairperson: There is quite a number of people here, therefore members can ask one question each. If there is time at the end of the session, there may be an opportunity for more questions.

26.

Mr Gibson: Thank you for your presentation; you are very welcome. There are already rafts of legislation, such as equality laws, to protect people. There is equality proofing, child proofing and various other pieces of legislation. With so much proofing - rural proofing, environmental proofing et cetera - are we in danger of being so over-administrative that we neglect the urgent needs of some children?

27.

Prof Dickson: There is no real danger of that. If the decision maker's attention is to be focused on the impact of proposed policies on particular sections of our society, that can only assist the policy-making process. Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 already requires designated public authorities to have regard to different age groups when they are devising policies. Therefore, to set up a Children's Commissioner, with the specific function of ensuring that the rights of children are protected when new policies are being devised, is wholly consistent with the section 75 requirement. It will facilitate the process that the public authorities have to go through. I am against bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, but it is important that children's needs are focused on, and this is an opportunity to do that.

28.

Dr Moore: One of the purposes of a Children's Commissioner would be to make sure that the laws ¾ particularly international laws - are implemented. Therefore, you are correct in stating that there is a whole raft of legislation. However the Commissioner will be able to monitor the extent to which those laws are implemented. The Children's Commissioner would be looking at every aspect of children's lives, and I hope that he or she will do away with some of the unnecessary bureaucracy that exists at present. The Commissioner will be able to ensure that joined-up planning takes place and that everyone is working together for the good of children.

29.

Mr K Robinson: Thank you for coming along. I will be brief to allow my colleagues on the far side to get a word in.

30.

You commented on the difference that a Commissioner would make to the individual child, and I am delighted that you have made a submission about post-primary education to the Burns Committee. How does your Commission make a difference to the life of a child who, for example, lives on a housing estate in poor social, housing and historical conditions, and attends a school which is in a downward spiral with staffing cuts? That child is expected to get a certain quality of education in those circumstances, yet another school, just a few hundred yards away, is so over-subscribed that not every child can benefit from the quality of education that it provides. How can your Commission help those children who come to school without having been properly fed or clothed. Many of the children's parents cannot be contacted, and even if they can be contacted, they are simply overwhelmed by the various conditions they face. How can this plethora of legislation and this mileage of paper change the life of children such as those?

31.

Prof Dickson: That is a difficult question to answer, but the Human Rights Commission is conscious that, along with any Children's Commissioner, it must look at society's problems in a rounded and holistic way. We are conscious, for example, that a lot of rights are violated, not because anybody intends to violate them, but because there are systemic problems in society, such as inequality and poverty. We are not so naïve as to expect that by clicking our fingers we can achieve equality overnight, or even a reasonable standard of living for everybody. However, the Human Rights Commission, and ¾ I would hope ¾the Children's Commissioner, seeks to work to protect social and economic rights in general, and to promote equality of opportunity in society in such a way that could, over time, alleviate the sorts of discrepancies that you have identified.

32.

Dr Moore: It is important to state that it is neither the Human Rights Commission nor the Children's Commissioner that will be delivering the rights ¾ the UK Government have signed up to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the various conventions relating to children's rights, therefore it is responsible for delivering those rights. The Commission will be there to monitor the extent to which the Government are doing that.

33.

Mr K Robinson: Would the Commission take an interest in the two cases I outlined, in which children are denied certain rights? Would you become actively involved in that situation?

34.

Prof Dickson: Yes. We would have to choose the best tactic for dealing with those problems. We might go to court, conduct an investigation or hold a meeting with the relevant departmental officials.

35.

Dr Birnie: My question will probably not surprise you, Prof Dickson. I want to ask you about the issue of conflicts of rights, particularly the potential conflict between the rights of the child and those of the parent. The Victorians allegedly said that children should be seen, but not heard. I do not want to return to such a principle, nor do I think we can.

36.

However, I am concerned that there is insufficient recognition, by your working group and in the UN declaration, of the potential conflicts between parental rights and children's rights. There is not enough recognition of the general principle that in all but exceptional cases - and there are difficult cases - parental rights should have primacy. I would like that principle to be enshrined.

37.

I will point to two examples in the working group report. On page 8, the working group recommended that human rights should be included on the school curriculum. A good deal depends on what you define as human rights. They are subject to contests and value judgements. I can imagine that some parents would be unhappy with that.

38.

On page 13, the Commission states that there should be a right of information. The general right of information is enshrined in the UN declaration, but it has been applied by the working group to deal with the issue of sex and sexuality. Again, there may be a conflict between what is being imposed on the child - the child is being forced to be free - and the beliefs or principles of the parents, who may have difficulties with that information. That would involve the general issue of conflict between parents' rights and children's rights.

39.

Prof Dickson: Over the last two years, the Human Rights Commission has learnt that the most difficult cases are those in which conflicts exist between different sets of rights. We are very aware of the potential for conflict between parents' rights and children's rights.

40.

It is fair to say that, to date, children's voices have not been heard enough when decisions are made that affect their future. We are strongly in favour of the Gillick principle, which states that as soon as a young person becomes mature enough to be able to express an informed opinion about his or her future, he or she should be allowed to express that opinion, and it should be taken into serious account by the decision makers.

41.

We would have to concede that parents of very young children should have the right to determine how their children live. On the two points you raised in relation to the working group report, I do not think that the members of the working group intended to specify the type of human rights education or sex information to be provided to children. That report merely serves to advise the Commission; it does not represent the Commission's final position.

42.

Dr Moore: It is very sad that children's rights are often discussed in the context of the extent to which they conflict with parents' rights. In the main, parents and children's rights go hand in hand. In the case of the child who attends a rundown school in a rundown estate, it is clear that the child's rights and parents' rights go together. It is crucial that you involve parents in the consultation on this process of building opportunities for children.

43.

Mr Beggs: Given your experience on the Human Rights Commission, what amount of funding do you estimate would be required to carry out the role of the Children's Commissioner?

44.

Secondly, you talked about the need for collaboration and agreement between the various strands of our various equality and human rights agencies. You said that one of your own organisation's weaknesses is that it cannot compel the giving of evidence.

45.

Can you give me any good reason why one of the existing Equality Commissioners should not be appointed with the specific responsibility of being a Children's Commissioner to protect the equality rights of children? Would it not be more sensible to develop their existing powers by granting some additional powers? Could that be an efficient way of addressing all legislation to ensure that children's needs are examined and to improve the lot of children. You mentioned that, in the past, there have been areas of weakness in young offenders centres, and that there is an obvious need for improvement in that field?

46.

Prof Dickson: On your first question, I would not want to hazard an estimate of the level of funding that should be made available.

47.

Mr Beggs: What does your organisation cost?

48.

Prof Dickson: We are currently provided with £750,000, but we are overspent. The Northern Ireland Office worked that figure out by trebling the annual allocation to the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights from 1973 to 1999. It did not make any further calculations with regard to the cost of employing staff, running the premises and buying equipment. It was very unscientifically done and we have learnt that that is a gross underestimation of the cost of running the Commission, which is in no way profligate.

49.

The Equality Commission, for example, receives ten times more money than the Human Rights Commission. Such standards would need to be taken into account when calculating the funding of a Children's Commissioner. The Human Rights Commission has no view on whether there should be a separate body for children, as opposed to empowering a section of another body. What is important is that some body be granted the powers that we talked about today. The Human Rights Commission, as a body, has not discussed your second question, therefore I could not express a Commission opinion. I am in favour of the rationalisation of bodies, which is important from a public expenditure point of view, but it is also important that the necessary powers are conferred upon whoever is granted that responsibility.

50.

Dr Moore: There are arguments for and against an integrated or segregated system. However, one of the arguments for having a separate Children's Commissioner office in Northern Ireland is that, for a start, we have a chance for something new and vital, which would allow children to be seen. There is also a need to make that office child-friendly and to involve young people, therefore setting it apart from existing bodies by making it more exciting and vibrant. There are many arguments in favour of the Children's Commissioner's office becoming a separate body, although the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has not taken a position on that. It is important that if we do have a separate Children's Commissioner, such bodies as the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission do not then drop the issue. There will be a need for protocols of understanding and memoranda, but it is important that children's issues are not marginalized to that body and that the rest of us still take an interest in those issues.

51.

Mr McMenamin: At what age would the Gillick principle start to apply? Dr Birnie mentioned the involvement of parents, but surely they would have the final say regardless of the child's age? I am thinking of the religious beliefs of, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses who might be concerned about the blood transfusion issue. What rights does the child have in such a situation? To what extent in Northern Ireland are both adults and children aware of the provisions and principles of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?

52.

Prof Dickson: The Gillick principle does not specify a particular age at which a child acquires competence to make decisions, and its application depends on the circumstances of each individual case. One 14-year-old might be competent to make decisions for him or herself, while a 16-year-old might not be competent. If competence is deemed to exist, the Gillick principle states that parents do not have the final say, particularly on medical matters. For example, the daughter of a Jehovah's Witness who is competent can take a decision for herself about whether to receive a blood transfusion, regardless of what her parents say. That is the current law and we support that principle.

53.

In regard to your final point, there is a great lack of awareness of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, despite the fact that there is a duty on the Government to make people aware of that Convention. We are trying to do our part to perform the Government's responsibility but much more could be done by both the Governments in Northern Ireland and in the UK to make the provisions of the Convention more public.

54.

Mr Ervine: Do the security services in Northern Ireland have the capacity to take immediate action to protect human rights? I do not think that they do but, if not, do you think that the Children's Commissioner should have capacity for such immediate action? I am thinking of two specific matters. First, we heard during a radio debate late last year that in eight schools in Northern Ireland teachers still mete out corporal punishment. To save blushes we shall not name those schools.

55.

Secondly, there has been a substantial increase in the availability and consumption of drugs in houses where children live. If you were the Children's Commissioner would you expect to have the capacity to act with immediacy, rather than having to trawl through a court case? Do you believe that it is wise that the Children's Commissioner should have the capacity to direct the community services to take action on the basis of the infringement of a child's human rights?

56.

Prof Dickson: The short answer is yes. The Human Rights Commission has been obstructed in its efforts to act immediately on certain issues. Important organisations, governmental and non-governmental, have refused to give us information about cases that we are investigating. We have recently made recommendations that the Human Rights Commission could become more effective if, for example, it was granted the power to enter premises, to inspect them, or to determine whether a human rights violation is taking place there. However, we would have to be extremely careful in that respect because the Human Rights Commission does not want to become a heavy-handed - [Interruption]

57.

Mr Ervine: Human rights violator?

58.

Prof Dickson: Safeguards need to be built in to ensure that people's rights are protected when we are investigating issues. On the other hand, children are so vulnerable that it is probably appropriate that special powers be given to a Children's Commissioner, even if they intrude upon the rights of parents and other adults.

59.

Mr Cobain: My first question is on the issue of conflicts of rights. You mentioned that you would like to have the right to investigate cases that are likely to result in a criminal prosecution. The rights of those individuals who might be charged are also paramount ¾ they too have human rights. The balance has to be assured. I am sceptical about the effectiveness of three or four organisations with investigative powers putting the person who may be charged through the wringer perhaps three or four times.

60.

Secondly, you talked about children who live in working class areas. We could go from one end of the Province to the other and pick out individuals. Without a skewing of resources into those areas there will be no immediate relief to kids who are living in deplorable conditions or, from an educational point of view, to kids who are not achieving. The only way to overcome those problems is by providing resources. Without guaranteed resources, we will not overcome those difficulties, and everything will remain "pie in the sky".

61.

Prof Dickson: The Human Rights Commission is often put in the position of having to stand up for the rights of victims of crime on the one hand, and at the same time the rights of people who are suspected of having committed those crimes. That is a difficult balance to strike, but it can be done and we attempt to do it. We are all against crime but we are strongly in favour of ensuring the protection of the human rights of those who are processed through the criminal justice system.

62.

That dilemma comes to the fore most obviously in the case of paedophiles. Where do you locate paedophiles after they have been released from prison? What kind of information do you give to local residents et cetera? Paedophiles also have human rights, however difficult it may be to accept that. It ought to be possible to constrain their rights to some extent in order to protect vulnerable people such as children. However, there must be a limit to the constraints that are to be imposed.

63.

On Mr Cobain's second point, we do not envisage an overnight solution to the systemic problems of poverty and inequality. However, one valuable role that a Children's Commissioner could play is to proof new policies, ideas and laws. The Commissioner could also give an opinion to the Assembly or to the United Kingdom Government on the impact of the new policies and laws on young people, and whether the poverty of young people in certain areas will be alleviated, or perhaps made worse, by a new policy or law.

64.

Mrs Courtney: At present, can you assist children to take legal proceedings under the Human Rights Act 1998 or to make an application to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg? Do you see that as the role of a Children's Commissioner?

65.

Prof Dickson: At present we can do both. However, if a Children's Commissioner is established we will devise a protocol or Memorandum of Understanding with that body. Therefore, if a young person came to us with such a request, we would redirect him or her, in the first instance, to the Children's Commissioner. At present if someone comes to us with a case of gender or religious discrimination we redirect them to the Equality Commission. If they do not get any satisfaction there they can come back to us. It is important to have that kind of co-ordination.

66.

Dr Moore: It is also important to have, for example, a phone line so that children can contact the Commissioner about issues that concern them and that may end up in court. At the moment, due to limited resources, we are unable to provide such help to children.

67.

Prof Dickson: I am also in favour of the various bodies in this field acting together to produce leaflets and information about their respective roles. It must be very confusing for the average member of the public when he or she is confronted with this plethora of quangos. Therefore, our role and remit need to be carefully explained.

68.

Ms Lewsley: How many cases have there been of people seeking the Human Rights Commission's help? Taking into account your limited resources, how many cases have you actually dealt with? You referred to your protocol of understanding and your articles of memorandum, what would be the differences between you and a Children's Commissioner, and how would your partnership work? Will every case relating to children that comes to the Human Rights Commission be automatically passed on to the Commissioner, or will that be the case with specific cases only? What is the Human Rights Commission's role with regard to children?

69.

Prof Dickson: I am afraid that I cannot make a definite response to your first question. I can seek further information and make it available to the Committee. I need to ask our caseworker how many of the cases that have come to us are connected with children and young people.

70.

On the second question, there will inevitably be things which the Children's Commissioner will not be able to do, or will not have the time to do, and that is where the Human Rights Commission can act in a supplementary capacity. We have links with international bodies, therefore we may be able to make effective interventions with such organisations as the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child and the UN Human Rights Committee with more ease than the Children's Commissioner, particularly in the first year or two of the Commissioner's existence.

71.

We are also represented in various international forums; thus allowing us to publicise rights issues with more ease than a Children's Commissioner. As Dr Moore said earlier, we do not want to stand back and leave it all to the Commissioner. We want to provide complementary assistance to that office.

72.

Dr Moore: We will still have a duty to consider equality of opportunity and to carry out impact assessments when we are doing our work, and age will be part of that consideration. Therefore, if we are having an investigation into health care, for example, we would need to make sure that we did consider the rights of young people and children.

73.

Mr Shannon: You said that the post of Children's Commissioner would need to be a high profile one; what employment criteria will be applied when recruiting such a person? Do you intend to advertise in the rest of the UK or in the Republic of Ireland? Who will be on the interview panel? Will you be on it?

74.

Prof Dickson: I do not think that anyone in the Human Rights Commission has any aspirations to be involved in the selection process, but we would suggest that the United Nations' principles on the establishment of human rights institutions should be applied. I call, for example, for a completely independent selection system - one that is independent of Government. In many countries organisations such as our own are established by a body of representatives from the Government and the Opposition parties so that there can be no accusation of political patronage.

75.

There would need to be clear criteria in regard to the appointment, one of which should be a commitment to, and a knowledge of, the rights of children.

76.

Too frequently in the past, such qualities as financial management have played too significant a role in the appointment process. There are professional people who can be appointed to the office and who can help with such issues. At the head, there is a need for somebody who is genuinely committed to children's issues, who knows his or her way around those issues and who has experience working in the field. The post should be widely advertised throughout these islands.

77.

Ms Gildernew: I welcome your recommendation that the Commissioner should have independent status - that is very important. The more independence the Commissioner is seen to have, the more successful the position will be. I agree that your own organisation is suffering from financial constraints. We need to ensure that the Commissioner has the adequate resources to do his or her job.

78.

Can you elaborate on how the Children's Commissioner will be able to carry out work relating to reserved matters, such as the judiciary or policing? How do you envisage that operating?

79.

Prof Dickson: Unless the Children's Commissioner is given a specific power to deal with reserved matters, it will be very difficult for that person to do any work on the area. That - from the latest information I have - is one of the problems with the Children's Commissioner being appointed in Wales, where there are even fewer devolved matters than there are here. It would make no sense for a Children's Commissioner to be appointed here unless he or she has the power to intervene on criminal and policing matters.

80.

Those are important matters as far as young people are concerned. The Committee of the Centre and other institutions in the Assembly can debate non-devolved matters and pass resolutions on them. However, with respect, that is not enough. Children's Commissioners need to have the real power to get something done about rights' violations in those areas.

81.

The Chairperson: Since this is an initiative of the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, would there be a need for legislation to be passed through Westminster as well as through the Northern Ireland Assembly?

82.

Prof Dickson: The Assembly might have to seek the Secretary of State's permission to pass legislation that impacts on non-devolved as well as devolved matters. I believe that that is possible under the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

83.

The Chairperson: I was intrigued by the case you mentioned in which a child in an Irish-medium language school required classroom assistance. Was the case taken on the basis of the child's special needs or the child's language rights?

84.

Prof Dickson: That was taken on the basis of the child's special needs. The child had a disability and had not been given classroom assistance.

85.

The Chairperson: What was the outcome of that case?

86.

Prof Dickson: We wrote a letter to the relevant education board, in which we pointed out what we thought was a denial of a right. It wrote back to say that it had reviewed its position and that it would now be providing a classroom assistant.

87.

The Chairperson: You might be hearing from some of us because it is not very often that we have such success. Thank you very much for coming today. I appreciate the answers you have given. At this very moment, at 3.20pm on a Wednesday, a child is almost certainly being physically or sexually abused. A good deal of children out there are suffering because their human rights are being violated.

88.

We cannot expect to overcome all the problems overnight. However, there has been a good deal of improvement since the start of the last century, and there is opportunity for further improvements. Perhaps there have been setbacks, perhaps there is actually more abuse in certain respects. Nevertheless, we can only try to get a better lot for children, and that is what the Committee is trying to do.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 21 March 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Ms Gildernew
Ms Lewsley
Mr McMenamin
Mr K Robinson

Witnesses:

Mrs J Harbison ) The Equality Commission
Mr B Lenaghan ) for Northern Ireland

89.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I welcome Mrs Harbison and Mr Lenaghan from The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. I understand that you have a tight schedule, and we appreciate your attendance today. You may make your presentation first, and the Committee will ask questions afterwards.

90.

Mrs Harbison: Thank you. First, I do not think that the Commission should tell the Committee what it should do about a Children's Commissioner. Of course, the Equality Commission has a specific remit to consult with various groups. As you know, we have responsibility for all the anti-discrimination legislation. That includes young people and, where appropriate, children. In fact, the Commission has supported a range of cases concerning employment for young people and also access to goods, facilities and services. In some instances that covers education provision for young people from different community backgrounds, genders, racial groups - for example, Travellers' children - and those with disabilities.

91.

I will sidetrack my comments for one second, because it is important for us to remember that children with disabilities still do not have full access to the range of education services available. Equally, at present they are not protected by legislation. That is of great concern to the Equality Commission. The Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill is currently progressing through Westminster. We hope that it will be implemented here, and we are pushing hard for that to happen as soon as possible because we do not want children and young people with disabilites to be disadvantaged in any way.

92.

Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 gives effect to Schedule 9, which places - as I am sure you are all aware - a statutory equality duty to promote equality of opportunity across nine categories, one of which is age. The Equality Commission's main interest lies in relation to that, because older and younger people must be considered when policy is made in order to comply with that duty.

93.

The interesting thing is that in the Equality Commission we are increasingly aware of the muliple identities that everyone has. Children and young people can be Protestant or Catholic, travellers, Chinese or Indian and so on. They can have disabilities or not have disabilities. When we discuss children, we must remember that we are not talking about one particular group of children, but we are talking about a vast array of children with multiple identities. That might be something that the Committee would want to consider with regards to the role of a Children's Commissioner.

94.

We also have a duty to promote good relations among persons of different religious beliefs, political opinions and racial groups. Of course, that includes children and young people. The equality schemes, which are now going through the approval process of the Equality Commission, must meet the requirements laid out in the Commission's published guidelines.

95.

Those guidelines require meaningful and direct consultation - the important word being "direct" - with all groups affected by section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. That includes children and young people. In a moment I shall ask Mr Lenaghan to speak from the perspective of working on equality schemes with the various Departments and public bodies. He will explain the difficulties that have arisen regarding direct consultation with children and young people. It seems to be an area with a very definite gap, and the problem is particularly bad regarding young people with learning disabilities. We are especially concerned about that.

96.

We must be very careful that the duties under section 75 do not become dominated by adult concerns or forget how many of our polices impact directly on young people. We must ensure that the voices of children and young people are heard. There can be no substitute for children being their own advocates as part of a direct consultation process. If you are agreed, Chairperson, I shall ask Mr Lenaghan to tell you something about the consultation audit we carried out, which provides some insights into the interaction with children and young people.

97.

Mr Lenaghan: You may be aware that we undertake an independent audit of the consultation processes which each public authority must go through regarding its draft equality scheme before it can be submitted to the Commission for approval. To date, one of the biggest weaknesses to arise in how public authorities have undertaken consultation across the nine categories has been in respect of direct contacts with young people and those with learning disabilities.

98.

There is, for example, a tendency in authorities - which are largely managed by adults - to work with organisations representing or working with young people, as a substitute for direct consultation. There is no evidence to show that authorities have made serious efforts to speak directly with young people. That is not to say it has not happened anywhere. One or two authorities have made efforts to work directly with young people through various organisations. There are some examples of good practice, but at this stage they are few and far between.

99.

We wish to stress the fact that the section 75 responsibilities take account of age. They cover direct consultation with people in different age categories, including young people. The Commission would be concerned if the appointment of a Children's Commissioner were to substitute for that direct consultation.

100.

The Chairperson: In essence, you are saying that there has not been the breadth and the depth of consultation on the equality schemes which you required.

101.

Mr Lenaghan: One consistent recommendation that we have been making to public authorities is to ensure that those in consultation with both young people and those with learning disabilities should adapt better practices regarding their methods of consultation, particularly with regards to policies that affect them.

102.

The Chairperson: What examples of consultation do you have from those equality schemes?

103.

Mr Lenaghan: Some authorities have used their services to organise direct consultations with young people - for example, education boards and authorities would make contact through their community services - whilst some district councils have made direct contact and association through community facilities. This is evidence of good practice, although it needs to be further developed and more widespread than at present.

104.

Ms Gildernew: Can you indicate how those bodies went about consulting children? Also, have you made recommendations for those who have not consulted so well, such as providing them with information packs to help the children and young people with what they are supposed to be doing? Finally, can you elaborate a little more on the actual process of drafting the consultation for children and young people?

105.

Mrs Harbison: There are a number of ways that this can be done. One of the things that staff have currently been working on is the development of a good practice guide to the consultation, as well as other aspects of doing equality schemes.

106.

Regarding feedback to the various public authorities - such as where there has been an example of good practice compared to somewhere else that may not have done quite so well - we have identified examples of good practice for others to think about. In the many instances where we have done that, we have tried to raise the standard of the whole process. The deficit is not sufficient enough to indicate that the equality scheme did not conform to the guidelines and therefore would not necessarily get approval. We are trying to ensure that all equality schemes meet the minimum standards upheld in the guidelines, whilst at the same time raising that standard of best possible practice.

107.

It is relatively easy to carry out consultations by telephone or by email. Increasingly, I suspect some form of electronics is a way of carrying out certain parts of the consultation, but direct consultation with young people is important. That is the only way to ensure that young people understand what you are trying to do. Also, you are left accessible to questions. Going to various organisations and setting up meetings with children and young people is an important way of doing that. That may be time consuming but, nevertheless, these policies impact on the lives of children, and they are tomorrow's future - it is important that we get it right.

108.

Joe talked about children and young people with learning difficulties. We have to be more creative in how we communicate with children and young people with learning difficulties. If the time and trouble is taken to communicate meaningfully with those young children, they become more articulate about what they want. That is important.

109.

The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland is looking for new and creative ways of carrying out the consultation process. The ways in which it tries to be creative - particularly with children and young people - will affect how it consults with others. It is a learning process for us all.

110.

Ms Lewsley: The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland has a wide remit that includes the equality of children, but you said that you would prefer to have more responsibility for the education of children with disabilities. There needs to be a protocol of understanding and, perhaps, an article of memorandum, between the Children's Commissioner and the Equality Commission. How do you foresee that working partnership developing? One of the issues raised by the Human Rights Commission is that it is not good enough to say that a Children's Commissioner will deal with all children's issues. There has to be some sort of working relationship. What do you see that as being?

111.

Mrs Harbison: A Children's Commissioner would not be a substitute for consulting with children, and I would be worried if people felt that it was. There would have to be a close working relationship and understanding between the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland and the Children's Commissioner. The Children's Commissioner would have an overseeing, monitoring and challenging role and would have to support the work of the Commission in ensuring that there was direct consultation with children.

112.

However, there is no point in having the consultation if we do not listen to and learn from it. No one is so unrealistic as to think that they will receive all the policies that they ask for. It is important that we are not close-minded about it and that we do not believe that we always know what is best for everybody, including children. The Children's Commissioner would have a very important, challenging and monitoring role to ensure that consultation was undertaken by the public authorities.

113.

In many other instances the Children's Commissioner would be an advocate, but the implementation of the equality duties would be the main role. I would hate it if all children's issues had to go through the Office of the Children's Commissioner. So much of what every Department and public authority does impacts on the lives of children. Therefore, it would be important for those policies to develop in the Departments, and the Children's Commissioner would have the overarching, co-ordinating role of ensuring that nothing was missed.

114.

Mr Lenaghan: The role of the Children's Commissioner would be determined by the power that it will eventually have. Therefore, in terms of advocacy and co-ordination, it goes without saying that it is very difficult to co-ordinate anything in relation to authorities if there is not any supporting authority there. In particular, in relation to that role and the advocacy of rights, for example, there obviously is a need for adequate resources to support that.

115.

Mrs Courtney: Would public authorities be required to consult with the Children's Commissioner, once that person is in post? Would you see that as requiring much extra resources, not only of that person's time but of the other resources? We were talking to representatives of the Human Rights Commission just before you came in, and resources are very important to them.

116.

Mrs Harbison: It would certainly be the view of the Commission that if there were to be a Children's Commissioner who was a link between public authorities and those people actually working with children, there would have to be considerable resources invested in that. There would not be any point in having a Children's Commissioner if he or she were hampered at every step of the way by a lack of resources. One could not do the meaningful consultation that is necessary to bring about the changes in our society - in terms of ensuring that we reduce marginalisation, wherever that marginalisation is - without investing some money in the process. The Commission has been saying this, and I have said it to this Committee previously.

117.

From the Commission's point of view, if there were a Children's Commissioner who had this overarching role and had access to a macro-picture in terms of children and young people, then that would be a tremendously important resource for the Commission.

118.

Mr McMenamin: When you mentioned children who were disabled being discriminated against, I presume you were referring to access to buildings, transport, et cetera. Would I be right in assuming that? Does Great Britain have a Children's Commissioner? Does the Equality Commission have the power to initiate or participate in proceedings in order to deal with discrimination against children, on the basis of the status activities, expressed opinions or beliefs of the child's parents, legal guardians or family members?

119.

Finally - and I appreciate this is not within your remit - I would like to think that we are not far from the day where we would have a Commissioner for Senior Citizens - the most vulnerable people.

120.

Mrs Harbison: I think I would have to declare an interest in that from the very beginning. Obviously that is something that the Assembly would have to consider. There is an argument that that group has a level of vulnerability that some other groups do not have. Having an advocate and someone with overarching responsibility might be worth thinking about.

121.

I am not sure if I can remember your entire question, so if I do not cover it all, you can come back to me. In terms of children with disabilities, unfortunately, education was left out of the Disability Discrimination Act, and the Disability Rights Taskforce made very strong recommendations that education ought to be included. As I said earlier, the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill has been through its third reading, I think, in the House of Lords, and it is back to the House of Commons. Unfortunately, with everything that is happening there at the moment, we are not quite sure whether - if there is going to be an election - it will get through in time.

122.

Nevertheless, it certainly would be the view of the Commission that it is very important for this Assembly to address the issue of including education within the disability legislation as soon as possible. We have talked about this before. There has always been a promise that Northern Ireland would not fall behind Great Britain regarding the rights of people with disabilities and that our legislation here would keep in step with that legislation. So, we certainly would be pushing very hard for that inclusion.

123.

Likewise, not all aspects of transport have been included, although certain aspects of transport have. For example, you do not necessarily have to have a train that is accessible, but you do have to make sure that the station is accessible. I am not sure what the logic is in that, but that is the position.

124.

We work with the Disability Rights Commission and we also work with our colleagues in the Equality Authority in the Republic. We want to push for those sorts of things together to ensure access in terms of transport to those with disabilities. Many people with disabilities fall into the low-income bracket. Therefore, travelling on public transport is a very important facility that ought to be available to them.

125.

Mr McMenamin: Does Great Britain have a Children's Commissioner?

126.

Mrs Harbison: No, but there is a proposal for one.

127.

Mr McMenamin: Do you have the power to initiate or participate in proceedings against children on the basis of the activities, expressed opinions or beliefs of the child's parents, legal guardians or family members?

128.

Mrs Harbison: Yes, in support of children. However, it would be on the basis of the child himself and not his parents. We have taken cases on behalf of children under the anti-discrimination legislation.

129.

Mr Beggs: The Equality Commission has a clear responsibility regarding age equality and, from what you have been saying, you appear to be carrying out its responsibility diligently. That would give you an interest in looking after children. What powers, above and beyond your own, would you like a Children's Commissioner to have in order to carry out their duty effectively? Do your existing Equality Commissioners have specialist roles? Do you have Commissioners who specialise in gender equality, disability equality, et cetera?

130.

We have been talking about learning from the roles of Children's Commissioners who have been appointed elsewhere. Are there any bodies comparable to your own, looking after a wide range of equality issues, in any other societies where these models of Children's Commissioners exist - for example, in Norway or Wales?

131.

Mrs Harbison: I am not sure that it is up to the Equality Commission to define the powers of children.

132.

Mr Beggs: We are just seeking advice.

133.

Mrs Harbison: If there were a Children's Commissioner, he or she would use the powers available to them under the anti-discrimination legislation and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to bring to our attention any deficits in relation to children or any cases brought to their attention concerning children being discriminated against. It would be very important for that link to be made so that the legislation that already exists could be used effectively by the Children's Commissioner on behalf of children.

134.

The Children's Commissioner could also have powers in relation to requiring or seeking information on the way in which various public bodies have been meeting the needs of children.

135.

Mr Beggs: Do you currently have that power?

136.

Mrs Harbison: We have powers in relation to individual Departments. A Children's Commissioner would have the advantage of an overview of the totality of the picture. We will have been consulted on all the individual policies because we have access to all the equality schemes, but it will be at the individual level, and certainly no one could come to us with an overarching issue. What would come to us would be a complaint that a specific public body was not meeting the needs of children in some particular way. We have powers to investigate that and to find out why that has happened and why the policy appears to be discriminating against children. We would not have the overarching power that a Children's Commissioner would have.

137.

Mr Beggs: Do existing Commissioners have any specialist roles?

138.

Mrs Harbison: Some of the existing Commissioners have previous experience of particular aspects of the legislation. However, from the beginning when we assumed our powers in August 1999, the Commission agreed with one voice that it would not have specialist Commissioners in that sense. It would be our collective responsibility to ensure that section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 was implemented to the highest possible standard. The enforcement and the empowering and promotion elements of the anti- discrimination legislation would be the responsibility of every one of us.

139.

We do benefit from particular expertise in the Commission in relation to some aspects of our work, but that would happen in any board. It is very much the Commission's view that we have collective responsibility, and that was reiterated at the Commission meeting last week.

140.

Mr Beggs: What other society has a comparable organisation to ensure equality in needs, disability, gender, and so on?

141.

Mrs Harbison: As you probably are aware, there are human rights bodies in other parts of the world, for example, in Canada and Australia. As far as I am aware, and from my own knowledge and reading, there is nowhere with the comprehensive legislation that we have now. The equality legislation in the Republic of Ireland is much more unified than ours, but it does not have the section 75 duties on public authorities to promote equality, which we have. There could be some hidden country which we have not yet discovered but, as far as we are aware, those powers are unique to us.

142.

Mr Beggs: Would you agree that our having this legislation is a relevant consideration in defining and appointing a Children's Commissioner?

143.

Mrs Harbison: I started off by saying that, if it were the decision of the Assembly to have a Children's Commissioner, one part of the armoury of tools which that Commissioner could use would be the legislation which exists here.

144.

The Chairperson: Are you saying that, when it comes to legislation on equality and human rights, we are top of the ladder anywhere in the world?

145.

Mrs Harbison: The Equality Commission is certainly striving to be there.

146.

The Chairperson: Can you indicate any countries that surpass us?

147.

Mrs Harbison: There are, for example certain bits of the human rights legislation in Canada and Australia - particularly in relation to disability - that we would aspire to. We will be looking at all these things very closely and, no doubt, be coming back to talk to you when you start considering the Single Equality Bill. We certainly want to be "top of the pops" when it comes to the Single Equality Bill.

148.

Mr K Robinson: It is interesting to note that they are all Commonwealth countries - we are going to have to send the missionaries out to the wider world.

149.

I have a couple of quick questions and an observation, so that we do not become detached from reality. Is the Equality Commission satisfied with the breadth and depth of consultation with children and young people that has been undertaken by local authorities? Can you give us any particularly successful examples of where public authorities are engaging with children? I raise that because I am involved with a "need to know" scheme in the Mossley area.

150.

Mrs Harbison: I have been involved with that scheme too.

151.

Mr K Robinson: You will then know what I am talking about. Are you planning to issue any specific guidance on consultation processes with children, given that there are dangers with people being sent out into the wider world to consult with children without the parents being present? I was interested when you mentioned that education had been left out and wonder what difference the inclusion of education would mean.

152.

We could meet all the specific targets like the pupils' needs and the parents' wishes, but I have no doubt it would be a principal's nightmare when that all comes to fruition. I am thinking of a simple thing like a board or health authority being charged with providing a speech therapist for children in a specific area. If they cannot meet that target, those children's rights are being infringed from the word go. We have talked about how we get to the level where we can actually change that position, so that children have a speech therapist available. There has to be sufficient speech therapists coming into the system to ensure that this would be a continuous process, not stop-start.

153.

How do we ensure that children, living quite close to each other but going to two vastly different schools, get equality of education? One child may be coming out without his breakfast in the morning, insufficiently clothed, no one in the house when he gets home in the evening, and teachers being paid-off because the school is in a deficit. Meanwhile, down the road, the school is bursting at the seams, there is a parents' association with oodles of money to spend on all sorts of interesting things, and the children are loved and cherished in a different way. How do we get that real equality built in to the process that you are charged with ensuring?

154.

Mrs Harbison: I will answer the last bit of your question first, and Mr Lenaghan can answer on consultation and good practice. The questions you have raised are the most fundamental ones we are going to have to grapple with. There are others in other areas, but in relation to children and the accessibility of education for them I think they are fundamental.

155.

When the various public bodies - the Education and Library Boards and the Department of Education, the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment - are drawing up their policies for impact assessment, you will find a lot of people, who are being consulted on those schemes, actually drawing attention to these very things. It is then going to come back to you, because you are going to have to decide where the resources are going to come from to actually meet those needs. However, if it is an inequitable system and some children have and others have not, then you cannot simply take it from the children who have, because what they have is probably what they ought to have. You cannot take it from them in order to give it to those who have not. You have to inject the resources into the area where the children do not have suitable access and bring them up to the right level.

156.

One of the things that we constantly talk about in the Commission is how we can ensure that those who have been marginalised, for whatever reason - and in our society there are all sorts of reasons for marginalisation - and who have not had the access that you and I would expect, are brought up to an acceptable standard. That does not mean that other people should be disadvantaged and marginalised as a result of that.

157.

Mr Lenaghan: In terms of tackling inequalities, section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 does provide a means by which participation can be increased in all sections of the community, including young people. Through participation, communities can take some degree of ownership of the services, in partnership with public authorities. That is the theory.

158.

There should be continuing dialogue about equality of access to information in relation to the consultation process. People should be enabled to understand the issues involved and the decision-making process of public authorities so that parents, for example, on boards of governors and young people who are users of services can fully participate on an equal basis and contribute to identifying how the policies are affected by inequalities. What may appear to be neutral policies can in fact have an impact on some schools but not others, or some young people but not others, or on speech therapy provision in one area but not in another.

159.

There is provision through the mechanism of equality impact assessment - which all authorities are required to have under section 75 - to consult directly with those who are affected. Those people who are disadvantaged by particular services should be making it clear to public authorities that they want to be consulted about these matters and that they have a right to be consulted.

160.

Mr K Robinson: The "need to know" scheme is the sort of scheme where you go out into the community.

161.

Mr Lenaghan: Yes, very much so.

162.

Mr K Robinson: However, because of the other disadvantages suffered by that community or individuals, they sometimes cannot communicate their desires and needs easily, with the result that the consultation process is not as effective.

163.

Mr Lenaghan: That is true. It is one of the realisations that we are reaching about the consultation audits. Weaknesses are coming through in respect of young people and those with learning disabilities. There are some examples developing - not completely at this stage - of authorities which have got together on a network basis. There is a good example with the Staff Commission for the Education and Library Boards, for example, which is specifically focusing on consultation methods in respect of young people and those with learning disabilities. We will be interested to see the outcome of those working groups.

164.

There are other authorities that are charged with the responsibility under section 75 of working with and providing services for young people. The Youth Council for Northern Ireland has recently produced some interesting research in terms of consulting with young people, and it has drawn upon international models of good practice, which we would also be interested in exploring in more detail. We will be producing further guidance to public authorities in relation to that.

165.

I want to go back to the issue of the legislation in terms of international comparisons. One of the things that we need to be clear about in regard to young people and anti-discrimination legislation is that there is none. The legislation in respect of section 75 is about promoting equality of opportunity and good relations, which is quite different from anti-discrimination legislation. There is a role there for advocacy in respect of children's rights that would not come within the remit of the Equality Commission.

166.

The Chairperson: In response to Ken Robinson's initial question, is that an indication that thus far TSN has not worked?

167.

Mrs Harbison: I do not think that is the case. We are still working through the TSN action plans. There are two Promoting Social Inclusion (PSI) reports, and the one on travellers is out for consultation at the moment. If you take the TSN action plans and the PSI reports together, as the Programme for Government rolls out, the difference that they make on the ground should become more obvious. It is not a case that we could sit in judgement on at this point in time and say is not working.

168.

The Chairperson: It has been about for a fair number of years. We have new TSN now.

169.

Mrs Harbison: I accept that. I am talking about new TSN.

170.

The Chairperson: I was talking about what we have had for a number of years. Does it not need to be more people-focused? A lot of the finance that has been directed towards TSN areas has got lost, and has not actually got to the ground where people need it.

171.

Mrs Harbison: We do not feel that. We have not done any research or study. Some of the work I have done would have suggested that the old TSN was not terribly effective. In my own field of education, it was singularly ineffective. I am saying that from my own standpoint of experience, rather than from having done the research necessary to make the judgement.

172.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for coming. We will draw up a report for you, and we may call on you again to answer some further questions in written form or to seek further advice.

173.

Mrs Harbison: We will be very happy at any time to assist you. There was some research carried out by the Gulbenkian Foundation. Are you aware of it? I thought I would draw it to your attention. It is called Effective Government Structures for Children.

174.

The Chairperson: If you could leave a copy with the clerks, we would appreciate it.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 28 March 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Bell
Mr Cobain
Mrs Courtney
Mr Maskey
Dr McDonnell
Mr C Murphy
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs M Cunningham ) Child Care NI
Dr P Rodgers ) Save the Children
Ms P Kelly ) Children's Law Centre
Ms M Kelly ) Barnardos
Ms C Mills ) PlayBoard

175.

The Chairperson: I would like to welcome representatives of a number of organisations that work under the banner of 'Putting Children First', which is co-ordinated by Child Care NI. There will be a short presentation that will be followed by a question and answer session.

176.

Mrs Cunningham: Thank you very much. We appreciate this opportunity to give evidence to the Committee of the Centre regarding a Children's Commissioner. I am going to introduce the witnesses, and they are going to discuss each of the areas that have been identified in the paper.

177.

Dr Paula Rodgers from Save the Children will address roles and responsibilities. Ms Paddy Kelly, director of the Children's Law Centre, is going to look at the duties and powers of the Children's Commissioner. Margaret Kelly, from Barnardos, will discuss accountability and interfacing, and Caroline Mills from PlayBoard is going to highlight examples of good practice, which you will be familiar with. In our next evidence session, colleagues from Child Care NI will discuss specific areas relating to juvenile justice, disability, minority ethnic groups and child protection.

178.

Dr Rodgers: We welcome the announcement that there is going to be a Children's Commissioner. As many of you know, we have worked and lobbied for this for a long time. It has the potential to have a positive influence on many aspects of all children's lives. Children are our most valuable and vulnerable citizens, although that is not to say that the needs of other sections of society are not equally as important. The needs of senior citizens, for example, are just as important as our children's.

179.

Too often children have no mechanisms to make their voices heard. They do not have a vote, a union or a complaints system to access the way adults do. They are totally dependent on us as adults to raise their concerns and deal with them on their behalf. As such, we feel it is our duty to demand the full protection of their rights.

180.

The appointment of a Commissioner would be a major step forward. The Commissioner could act as an independent watchdog for the rights of all children. That means that the Commissioner would work not just with those children experiencing particular difficulties - for example, those living in poverty, who have been abused, are in the care system, or have been in contact with the criminal justice system - but would communicate with and work for all children.

181.

The Commissioner would work for those children who, for example, suffer in silence because of bullying - and we know there are many of them - or for those who are at risk of being knocked down when playing at night on a busy road, because they have no play facilities. He or she would work for those children who feel that they have absolutely no one to turn to, for whatever reason, and that no one is listening to them. No one is in their corner, fighting for them. A Commissioner would be absolutely in their corner.

182.

The Commissioner would be a champion for children, acting as an interface between children and those of us who have been charged with ensuring that their needs are met, both inside and outside Government. The Commissioner should not just be concerned with the monitoring of statutory provision or the actions of the Assembly, but should keep a watch on voluntary sector provision as well. This is a watchdog for us as much as it is for the Assembly.

183.

The Commissioner has a number of roles: to raise the profile of children's issues and children's rights generally, to take an overview of the impact of all legislation, policies and procedures on children across all services and to play a key role in assisting, supporting, guiding and monitoring the Assembly in carrying out a number of its key roles and duties in relation to children. You will be familiar with those duties, such as childproofing and meeting the requirements of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The Commissioner could provide a supportive role.

184.

One of the main and most interesting tasks of the Commissioner would be to engage with and consult children directly. Such a Commissioner should feel equally comfortable going in and talking to a group of pre-school children who are in the middle of painting, as they would in addressing Members of the Assembly. We need someone who has the flexibility and the skills to do both things very competently.

185.

It is also vital that the Commissioner consults parents. They will have to do this to understand the daily stresses that families deal with. They will need to talk to parents because it is often the parent who is the strongest defender of their child's rights. It is the parent who has to deal with the aftermath of a denial of children's rights. Bullying is just one example of this. It continues to be a problem for many children and a concern for parents. We get calls to our offices, on a weekly basis, from parents who are distraught and not knowing where to turn to when their children are being bullied. They are desperate to find someone who will shout loudly for the rights of their children.

186.

We would also like the Commissioner to act as a source of advice and information for children and for practitioners who are working with children. Ideally they would be empowered to conduct research into children's lives, to collect information and statistics and produce an annual report.

187.

Finally, and most importantly, in order to make a real difference to children's lives, the Commissioner must have the necessary powers to challenge the abuse of children's rights.

188.

Ms P Kelly: Like Paula Rodgers, I welcome the commitment of the Executive and the Assembly to establish a Children's Commissioner. It is a positive and encouraging step. The duties and powers that we believe a Commissioner should have have been informed by the experience of all the organisations that will give evidence today. Collectively we have a strong sense of what powers a Commissioner would need in order to deal with the cases that come to us each day.

189.

We believe that the duties and powers that we have outlined in our briefing paper are the bare minimum that a Commissioner must have in order to address the issues facing children in today's world. These are issues like bullying in school, child abuse or the issue of a disabled child who wants to go to the same school as his or her brothers and sisters. These are real issues that affect all our children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews and our neighbours' children.

190.

Rather than going over the briefing paper that we prepared, and which you already have, I would like to take you through three hypothetical cases, which highlight why some of the powers we are advocating are necessary. Although these cases are hypothetical, they are based on fact.

191.

A young girl is living in a children's home. She cannot live at home because she is being sexually abused and there is no relative with whom she can live. She, along with other children in the home, is being abused. Whenever there is a planned visit from an external person the children are threatened into silence by the abuser - and that abuser is present to ensure their compliance. If a Children's Commissioner had the appropriate powers, he or she could arrive unannounced to the home and spend time alone with the children who could inform of the on-going abuse and threats.

192.

A Commissioner with the appropriate powers could examine relevant records, which might corroborate what the children had said. The Commissioner could then immediately call the relevant authorities, initiate the investigation into the abuse, take evidence from children and staff, and make recommendations for changes in law, policy and practice to try and prevent a recurrence.

193.

To be able to intervene in this way, the Commissioner would need to be able to visit unannounced and have powers and access to all documents in the home. To effectively investigate, the Commissioner would need to be able to get evidence from staff and children.

194.

In a second case scenario, a child with special education needs has been subject to extreme bullying at a school where there has been a long culture of bullying over several years. The child's parent is distraught and has nowhere to turn. She approaches the office of a Children's Commissioner, and the Commissioner immediately initiates an investigation and approaches the school. Thanks to the powers that the Commissioner has, he is able to access all documentation including child protection records, details of all referrals made, police and social services' records, and details of actions taken by the school. The Commissioner could then make recommendations for changes in policy and/or legislation to protect all children from bullying. He could also give the parents and child information, and advise and support them through any action.

195.

In a third scenario, a child under 16 and in care has mental care problems and has been detained under the mental health legislation in an adult psychiatric ward. There is no one independent with parental responsibility for the child and the child is not competent to instruct anyone to act on his or her behalf. A Children's Commissioner with the necessary powers could intervene and act in his or her own name on behalf of the child and investigate the extent to which children's rights have been denied in these circumstances. The interesting thing is that experience elsewhere shows that quite often the powers are not actually used. The very fact that they exist is sufficient to give leverage as regards the Commissioner's work.

196.

These are three hypothetical cases, but the issues are very real. We urgently need a Children's Commissioner with all the necessary powers. The powers outlined in our briefing document can help children who are being bullied to the point of suicide, being abused, dying because they have nowhere safe to play and all other children who have no one else to speak out for them.

197.

Ms M Kelly: We have talked a lot about the powers in the role of the Commissioner, about the need for him or her to be independent, and about the need for children who approach that Commissioner to know that he or she has their best interests at heart.

198.

However, we are also aware of the need for accountability and the need to balance independence and accountability. We really believe that the best way for the Commissioner to be accountable is to be directly accountable to the Assembly.

199.

In doing that, we will ensure that the Commissioner can set his or her own priorities and agenda following the needs and wishes of parents and children. We will also ensure that if there are issues around any of the Commissioner's actions that are falling outside the scope of the Commissioner's work, then the Assembly will be the place for those issues to be dealt with.

200.

We see a number of mechanisms assisting that accountability process. We believe that the Commissioner should report the performance of its functions to the Assembly during the year. He or she should produce an annual report on the status of children and young people in Northern Ireland. That status should be measured against the rights outlined in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child as one way of actually assessing where the children in Northern Ireland are with regards to their rights.

201.

Many of us in the work that we do can testify that when we go to look for baseline data about our children, we cannot find that. We cannot get access to it. Very recently, I wanted to know the number of disabled children in Northern Ireland in education in special schools and in mainstream schools. It was not possible to get that information; it did not appear to exist.

202.

The Commissioner could ask for that sort of baseline data. He or she could ensure that it is gathered and use it to measure change. Therefore, in the first year, the Commissioner would have a view of where children are and be able to measure progress that has been made by the office. We believe that the Commissioner should appear twice a year before the Assembly and as required by a Standing Committee.

203.

If any of the Committees of the Assembly wanted the Commissioner to inform their work, that should be available. It is essential, given that the Commissioner will be funded through public money, that there be proper accounts and financial records. We see that as being monitored in the same way as other non- departmental public bodies, which is primarily through the Department of Finance and Personnel. The final safeguard in relation to the Commissioner would be the same as any of the other non-departmental public bodies, which is that ultimately it can go to judicial review. The powers of the Commissioner - if they were overstepped - could be ruled on in that way.

204.

We have also considered how the Commissioner would interface with the Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commission and other groups of that nature. While all of those commissions have a very important role and function, none focuses specifically on children. The Equality Commission, in particular, has a wide remit and cannot perform a role focusing on children's needs while trying to fit that in with all of the other issues that it deals with.

205.

One of the things that we learnt from speaking to the Norwegian ombudsman is that it is essential that children recognise and know the ombudsman and the ombudsman's office. That will not happen if the Commissioner is located far away in another commission - it needs to be a very public office and a very public person who is instantly recognisable to children and families for it to have a real effect. We are aware that the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission have memoranda of understanding with each other in relation to areas where their work potentially overlaps. A Commissioner's office would address those issues and take matters forward in that way.

206.

The final point relating to accountability, interfaces and independence is that the Commissioner must be appointed through an independent selection process. One of the things that happened in Wales which we particularly liked was that young people were involved in the selection and appointment of the Commissioner. This was an initial step to ensuring that, no matter what the Commissioner and the Commissioner's office did, they involved children and young people. It was there from the outset, and we should take that same approach in involving children and young people from the beginning.

207.

Ms Mills: To fulfil the expressed desire to put Northern Ireland at the cutting edge of world practice in terms of the Children's Commissioner, it is important to examine models of good practice that exist elsewhere. In almost all cases, existing offices, established by the Government or Parliament, are characterised by their ability to advocate independently for children. The experience of the Norwegian Ombudsman for Children offers one possible approach, and it is the preferred model for replication in Northern Ireland.

208.

The Norwegian office was the first in the world to be established through legislation - an Act was passed in 1981 allowing the appointment of an ombudsman working for the benefit of all children. In 1995 an evaluation of the office revealed that the ombudsman had been instrumental in throwing the political spotlight on children and their situation, thereby putting children on the political agenda. The evaluation also demonstrated that the ombudsman had been instrumental in improving the position of the child in law and had contributed towards an excellent spirit of dialogue between the Government, the ombudsman and society.

209.

The Norwegian ombudsman has been a useful instrument for influencing opinion, public administration and decision-makers and has been commended for using different means and methods of consciousness-raising and consulting with children. The ombudsman has a high public profile with children and the general public. The success of the Norwegian model in putting children on an international agenda has led to the office being recognised as an export item and as a practical model for other countries.

210.

A number of children's ombudsmen operating in countries, provinces and cities throughout Europe and beyond, replicate, or are based on, the Norwegian ombudsman. For example, independent offices in Belgium, Iceland, Austria and the city of Madrid all work to improve the position of children in society and to defend their interests and rights. They also investigate cases and give expert opinions on new laws and policies. These good practice models can be characterised by their independence - a factor which is recognised as being crucially important by the Council of Europe, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child and the European Network of Ombudsmen for Children.

211.

In order to secure a better future for our children, it is crucial that the Assembly establishes a Children's Commissioner from a children's rights perspective as opposed to a child welfare or child protection perspective.

212.

In following the Norwegian example, the Commissioner would have a wide remit, which is crucial in promoting the general status and quality of life for all children as well as dealing with things that can go wrong. In addition, the office of the Commissioner here would be based on one that is now 20 years old, allowing us to benefit from experiences and lessons learned in Norway. Given the need for an effective champion, our children deserve nothing less.

213.

Mrs Cunningham: That concludes our presentation at this stage.

214.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. That was very concise. I know that you are operating under severe time constraints. We will perhaps be able to go into more detail in the questions. Should the Commissioner, in extraordinary cases, have the power to take children into his care or authority?

215.

Ms P Kelly: The Commissioner should have all the necessary powers to protect all children against all forms of abuse. However, the Commissioner should work alongside other agencies that are currently giving shelter to, protecting or who have parental responsibility for children.

216.

I refer back to the example that I gave of a child living in a children's home where there are allegations of abuse. The potential role of a Children's Commissioner would be to go into the children's home, put the spotlight on and work with social services in order to provide children with a safe environment to live in.

217.

The Chairperson: Following on from that, would the Children's Commissioner have the power to go in to a detention centre or a children's home unannounced and do inspections?

218.

Ms P Kelly: Given the particular vulnerability of children in those circumstances, it would be necessary for a Commissioner to have such powers of entry. Such a case could also arise at a school if there were accusations of physical abuse.

219.

In such places, those who are in positions of authority with responsibility for children may be exerting force to silence children about the abuse. As a protective mechanism against that, it would be important that the Commissioner would be able to have access to those children in a way that ensured the children's rights.

220.

Mr Cobain: I have made this observation from a number of discussions that we have had on rights. What added value would a Children's Commissioner have? We have dedicated social services and a Human Rights Commission. I am concerned about overlap between those organisations. At the end of the day, organisations get confused about what their responsibilities and rights are.

221.

I would have thought that the Human Rights Commission's role was to protect the human rights of all individuals. Social services have a specific role in relation to children. Visits to schools and children's homes would come under the power of social services. The law itself protects children. I know that there is a need for specific protection for children more so than adults, but are there not sufficient safeguards already?

222.

Dr Rodgers: In our presentation, we acknowledged the fact that there is a Human Rights Commission and that social services staff are very busy working with children.

223.

The reality of the situation for those of us on this panel, and our colleagues in other public sector organisations that work with children every day, is that we continue to see problems that children have. There are gaps in services, and things are not happening the way that they should be.

224.

Without a Children's Commissioner, there is no one to bring people around a table and ensure that there is co-ordination between the services that you have mentioned. The Children's Commissioner would play an overarching role.

225.

The Human Rights Commission has indicated its willingness to look at children's rights issues in the absence of a Children's Commissioner, but its staff and team are already stretched and pressured. Children's issues have not featured very highly on its agenda, although it is willing to look at them. One must understand the time constraints, pressures and resource constraints that the Human Rights Commission faces.

226.

Mr Cobain: Should resources be spent on refining what already exists? Is there any reason why more money should not be spent in social services where there is a dedicated team and structure for dealing with children? Why should we not spend more money to support those professionals who are already there? Why do we need another layer of bureaucracy on top of what already exists? A Children's Commissioner is not going to make any difference. It is what is underneath that is important. We are talking about building another structure. We are not just talking about a Commissioner bringing people round a table and saying, "This is what we need to do".

227.

Mrs Cunningham: The unique feature about the Children's Commissioner compared with statutory bodies - such as social services and education - is that they are independent and outside the other bodies that examine what is happening.

228.

'Children Matter' was produced because of the difficulties in residential care. Child Care NI, as a body in the voluntary children's sector, lobbied significantly about the issues in residential care, as did its statutory colleagues. There is widespread support for the strategic plan that is laid out in 'Children Matter' and yet the experience of children in residential care today is no better, no different and has not been improved 2-plus years down the road. If there had been a Children's Commissioner outside of the statutory and voluntary political arena, he or she would have been able to drive that forward, and the situation for children in residential care would have been significantly improved.

229.

Ms M Kelly: Residential care was the example that I was going to use. There are serious examples in Northern Ireland of children and young people in residential care settings who have been sexually abused, and the older child who sexually abused them is still in the same care setting because there is nowhere to move either of them to. It is a serious risk situation, and that is not a one-off. It is currently happening. The voluntary sector and social workers in the statutory sector have lobbied on that issue, and it is has been extremely difficult to get any movement.

230.

An independent Commissioner with the appropriate powers would be able to get movement where we have so far failed. A Commissioner would be able to address those serious situations that we have been unable to.

231.

Mr Maskey: My question flows from the previous one, but it is slightly different. I dealt with a case that involved a family and a young person, the Guardian Ad Litem Agency, social services, the Law Society and Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all. I was concerned that nobody was able to get to the core of the issue. The scandalous situation was that the young person more or less ended up in custody because of abuse by an adult.

232.

The Children's Commissioner should have that extra added value. As Fred Cobain said, we do not want to end up with just another person or office. Where do you get to cut through the systems? The situation that I have just described was very frustrating, and I see the Commissioner's role as an advocate for children's rights in a way that is open and transparent but which also has authority.

233.

All the other agencies have their own basis in law. Do you foresee a situation where the Commissioner will be someone to whom children will go to have their cases settled.

234.

Ms P Kelly: One quality crucial for a Children's Commissioner is independence, and the other qualities relate to the culture and ethos of that office, in that it has to be accessible to children and young people. The Commissioner and his or her office need to be instantly recognisable so that the child in the scenario that you mentioned - without going into any detail - would immediately know of difficulties so that they could go to the Children's Commissioner. Hopefully the Commissioner would have sufficient powers to access the information to compel relevant statutory bodies to take appropriate action. If necessary, the Commissioner could take a case on behalf of the child, for example, a judicial review to encourage a statutory body to take action - that would be in an extreme case.

235.

If there were adequate statutory powers and the commission was afforded sufficient status then the Commissioner's involvement would command the engagement of other powers and bodies; the Guardian Ad Litem and the Northern Ireland Office, and the trusts or boards involved. It is important that the statutory powers are there and the office is afforded the status and recognition through legislation that is necessary to deal with the type of issues involved. Similarly, in the scenario you mentioned, we find that children fall through the net and slip between different Departments.

236.

Mr C Murphy: For me the issues are the powers, independence and resources of the Children's Commissioner. In your presentation you link the Children's Commissioner to the Executive in the Assembly, for there are powers that the Children's Commissioner needs, which are not transferred, but are reserved powers in relation to juvenile justice. How would you envisage being linked in with the Assembly, as those are powers that are not our responsibility?

237.

Ms P Kelly: From our own experience of dealing with children on the front line, the Commissioner must have power to support and help all children including those who come in contact with the criminal justice system. My understanding is that there is a precedent whereby matters which are currently reserved have been facilitated by the Secretary of State, through bodies set up and through legislation, have been dealt with by the Assembly. I stand to be corrected in this matter, but there is a capacity for the Secretary of State to consent to juvenile justice being within the power and remit of the Commissioner.

238.

Mr C Murphy: The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister would have to pursue those matters, but this issue needs to be presented clearly because the submission does relate a lot of the matter to the Assembly. I agree with you that there are important issues that are outside our scope and need to be drawn into the Children's Commissioner's role.

239.

Mrs Cunningham: We are going to deal specifically with the juvenile justice in the next session. I know that you are not able to stay for that Mr Murphy but, in our view, the Commissioner should have responsibility for all children in Northern Ireland in the juvenile system at whatever level. We could not justify not including the most vulnerable children within the remit.

240.

Mrs Courtney: My apologies for missing your submission. You may have answered this already. You made comments about children in care being sexually abused. Should the Commissioner be given the power in extraordinary cases to take children into his or her care or custody?

241.

Mrs Cunningham: That question was dealt with earlier, but do you still wish me to cover the point?

242.

Mrs Courtney: Yes, please.

243.

Ms P Kelly: While the Commissioner needs to have powers to deal with the whole range of issues relating to all children, it would be a case of working with the trusts and the boards who already have statutory powers to create a space for children where they can live safely. The Commissioner could work alongside those who already have statutory responsibility in relation to children, providing somewhere safe for them to live. However, there may be cases where the Commissioner would have to intervene in the first instance, should a particular problem arise.

244.

The Chairperson: Would that include taking children from their own parents?

245.

Ms M Kelly: There are well-established mechanisms in place regarding social services intervention when children are at risk. For example, a child might contact a Commissioner and say that they are in real trouble at home and need help. We envisage that in that case the Commissioner would get in touch with social services and the police, and normal procedures will fall into place. We do not envisage that the Commissioner will begin repeating a whole process that is already there. That would not make sense. Therefore, while the Commissioner may be a point of contact for a child who is in trouble, we envisage he or she would follow the appropriate procedures, unless the child said; "I am still in trouble, and social services and the police are not helping me".

246.

The Chairperson: I accept that, but with respect, how many times have we turned on the news and heard about a little child who has been failed by the social services, not just once, but time and time again? That is why I specifically asked what role the Commissioner would have if the social services have failed.

247.

Ms M Kelly: If the social services fail, the Commissioner may want to investigate those issues, but in general he or she would follow normal procedure, unless the child in trouble is saying that they have not been able to get help through the normal process.

248.

Ms P Kelly: One possibility is that, if social services had been involved and had not acted in a particular way to protect the child, and the Commissioner had, for example, power to take judicial review proceedings, he or she could encourage, or force, the trust to act in the child's best interests. That may be the unusual circumstances that you referred to.

249.

Mr Shannon: You mentioned bullying in your introduction. That is an issue that people have specifically come to me about. I find it increasingly frustrating when I try to get quick, remedial action on it. I understand the whole thrust of the issue is to try to respond quickly. How do you see the Commissioner reacting to those issues, bearing in mind that the response must be quick? Often, the parents are worried, the child is worried and, unfortunately, in some cases, schools are not taking the action they should be, for whatever reasons. In these circumstances, how do you see the matter being addressed quickly?

250.

It is not just a matter of having a Commissioner - he or she must have power. I think that is the thrust of everyone's questions here today. The position itself will not solve the problems; it will be the power that the Commissioner will have which will make that happen.

251.

Dr Rodgers: The Commissioner has several roles in terms of dealing with bullying. Parents and children often reach a stage where they feel they have nowhere else to go, and we often get calls where that is the case. At that stage, a Children's Commissioner would step in and would have a lot more clout and authority than perhaps our organisations have. He or she could sit alongside the school, the education and library board, or the Department of Education, and start to make something happen. On an individual level, the Commissioner may have more clout to move a case forward.

252.

At a more strategic policy level, the Commissioner would have a very strong role to play in terms of ensuring that schools, for example, have policy and practices for dealing with bullying, and ensuring that existing good models are spread across all schools. It is about a culture - as somebody already mentioned - of listening to children and taking their complaints seriously. We feel that the Commissioner would add to that culture across all sectors and not just in education. He or she would emphasise the importance of actually listening to what the child says, and not brush it under the carpet by saying that it is just something that happens in the playground. There are lots of different angles that a Commissioner could take and, therefore, make a real difference in cases such as bullying.

253.

Mrs E Bell: I am sorry I missed your presentation but, having seen you several times before, I hope I have the gist of it. As a member of the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, I was at a meeting at a centre for children who are doing courses as the result of a probation order. I was also at another meeting about disruptive pupils who had problems, to see if the Probation Board and the Department of Education could work together on that.

254.

Two things came out of that meeting. First, the children I spoke to certainly want that voice in the Children's Commissioner. I have always felt that that is the basic thing. There are other agencies and departments which deal with a whole host of children's situations, but I see the Children's Commissioner as a co-ordinator and a facilitator, to be there and make sure that those departments are doing what they should be doing for the children. In my own experience I have seen moneys going to trusts, et cetera, for children's purposes but not necessarily going to that - through no fault of theirs, but simply because they have problems with resources. Do you see that as one of the overall or basic roles of the Commissioner? I would be very wary of not including children who are in detention centres, because we have seen the problems with victims. There are great problems with the Victims Liaison Unit and the Victims Unit here. With children the situation would be even worse, and that is a difficulty.

255.

My final question, therefore, is where do we fit in in this for you? What can we do? Generally, our Members are supportive of the Children's Commissioner but, rather than just going away after telling us what you do, what do you think should be our next step in making sure this is happening? It is a long process, but we do not want to falter - at least, I do not.

256.

Mrs Cunningham: We welcome the fact that it is a long process, and we have been working very closely with the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to ensure that the process is as comprehensive as possible and that all of us take our time to get this right. We also welcome the fact that the Committee has taken the time to inform and brief themselves in relation to the Commissioner, so that they can perhaps more thoroughly carry out their role in relation to scrutinising the work of the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. From our point of view, that is very encouraging.

257.

You could use the influence you have to ensure that the Commissioner for Children in Northern Ireland is, as Caroline Mills said, at the very cutting edge of world practice. We welcome the fact that there is all-party support for the Commissioner but - picking up on points that many of you made - it is vitally important that the Commissioner has some teeth and has the duties and powers essential to resolve many of the difficulties with which you are familiar at constituency level and which we are encountering from children and - more specifically - from their parents.

258.

I welcome the fact that the Norwegian ombudsman will give evidence to you. One of the things I looked at before coming here was that in the last year he received over 2,000 enquiries, and only 10% of those were directly from children. The majority were from parents who - as you yourselves will have found - are at their wits' end to try and resolve many issues in relation to their children and deal with the complexity of the bureaucracy in which children are involved.

259.

Children do not fit neatly into any particular box. It is not just education, care, juvenile justice, or whatever. The Commissioner should have that overarching, strategic view. Following on from the consultation in relation to the Commissioner, there will be further work in relation to an overarching strategy for children in Northern Ireland.

260.

The Commissioner should have a monitoring role, so that vulnerable children do not fall through the gaps between Departments. One of the reasons why the responsibility must be for all children is that unless our universal services for children are meeting their needs, then we are moving children rapidly through that continuum from universal right to the sharp end of being children in need. We need to be focusing on almost one third of our population - 500,000 children - ensuring that the services available to them, both voluntary and statutory, are appropriate and meeting their needs.

261.

Mrs E Bell: I find resources to be a perennial problem. Obviously you cannot tell Departments what to do with their money, but this would be one of the primary remits.

262.

Mrs Cunningham: It has been a real frustration for both the voluntary and statutory sector to hear of different initiatives in relation to children announced by the Treasury. Either they do not come to Northern Ireland or they come in a very watered down format. The Commissioner definitely would have a role in ensuring that there was equity for the children in Northern Ireland with all the other countries within the UK. Even when resources are earmarked or ring-fenced to be spent on children, we would hope that the Commissioner would have a role in ensuring that they are actually spent on children.

263.

Mr Beggs: One of the core problems has been a limited budget in health and education. Too frequently, money earmarked for children's services ends up being used in the acute sector, or some other sector, and programmes do not materialise on the ground. That said, there is a limited budget that we all have to spend here, and it is how we best get the service to the children and use our limited money most wisely.

264.

Do you accept that there is a danger, in creating another commission, of severe duplication of services, and ultimately less money being spent on the ground with regards to children? You have argued for a separate commission, but that argument could equally be used for the Equality Commission, the Fair Employment Commission or the Disability Commission. Can you tell us why you should be a different case - why you will not be involved in issues about a young child who also happens to be disabled, where there would be cross linkage with an existing commission?

265.

I agree that there is a need for someone to have the mantle or focal point for children's issues. Why could that person not be sited in the Equality Commission, with some additional powers, remit and function? Services on the ground could be upgraded, with the least amount of money being spent on bureaucratic administration and commissions discussing things amongst themselves.

266.

Ms M Kelly: There are a number of issues in relation to that, and we can appreciate and understand concerns about duplication. There are 500,000 children in Northern Ireland - a third of our population - and they do not have a voice. If you bury that voice in some other commission, children will not find it. The Norwegian experience shows that one of the most important things is that the Children's Commissioner and the Commissioner's office is instantly recognisable and accessible to children. If a child contacts the commission he does not want to get the Equality Commission instead of the Children's Commissioner. Even the basics of how you undertake the day-to-day business - doing that in a child-friendly and appropriate way. That cannot be achieved if it is put inside some other commission - it needs to be instantly recognisable. There are enough children in Northern Ireland to both need and deserve an independent Commissioner, specifically and solely for them and no one else.

267.

We also look at the work of the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission. While I have no doubt that if a really pressing issue about an individual child came to them they would deal with it, I know that it would get squeezed in the middle of all the other rightful and pressing needs that they have. Northern Ireland needs someone who can look at the needs of all children. Mary made the point that if you do not start with all children, you end up with a very small group of children in need and push children down that road. We believe that a Commissioner who is independent, recognisable, accessible and available to all children will make the difference to all children.

268.

We see the pressures on services through the work that Barnardos does. It was horrendous for me to look at the pressures that surround residential care and some of the situations that our children find themselves in. I believe that there must be two tiers. There must be the services on the ground plus a watchdog; there must be a voice. We have found that our voices are not strong enough. If you create a Commissioner for Children, he or she must be recognisable, independent, have a really strong voice and make a big difference for children. Do not do it half way.

269.

Mr Beggs: Would you transfer the responsibility for childproofing legislation from the Equality Commission? There is no point in both bodies doing it?

270.

Ms P Kelly: The issues that Margaret Kelly has mentioned recognise the potential overlap between a number of organisations: the Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commission and the Police Ombudsman. To ensure that resources are used effectively and the most appropriate body actually deals with the issues there must be memoranda of understanding between all of the organisations. In some circumstances, the responsibility for child proofing may still rest with the Equality Commission, but in other more general circumstances it may sit with the Children's Commissioner.

271.

Mr K Robinson: I am sorry for arriving halfway through your presentation. What I have heard has been very impressive. There is a matter of balance here. I cannot quite work out in my own mind the balance between your role as enforcers or as persuaders and the balance between your need to deal with individual cases and your need to improve across a broad front. I was particularly interested in the statistics that you gave earlier - that 90% of your calls come from parents and only 10% from children.

272.

Mrs Cunningham: Those statistics came from the Norwegian ombudsman.

273.

Mr K Robinson: I found that balance quite startling; I thought that it would be much closer - in the range of 60/40. As a left-hander, no one has quantified how many of us there are in Northern Ireland. I barely have a voice today. I am particularly interested in the fact that you are trying to provide a voice for children, and yet those statistics almost suggest that the voice is being provided for the parents rather than the children per se. That causes me some concern.

274.

I am also concerned that when different agencies have tried to intervene in situations in the past - for the best of reasons - they have actually made the situation worse. I will give a simple example from my experience as a schoolteacher for many years. In the early days I decided what was happening, and we all got on with the job of teaching and learning. By the time I retired, there was a policy on bullying. If I had a report of a bully in the playground and eventually he found his way to my office, I had to leave the office door open and position my caretaker outside so that he could see me at all times. I failed to solve the problem of bullying. I felt myself to be disadvantaged, and no doubt I was going to get a very angry parent at the end of the day who would accuse me of not dealing with that situation. There was almost inertia due to too many bodies becoming involved. I am concerned that although the general aims are laudable, when they actually come into practice we might find ourselves in that position again.

275.

Dr Rodgers: You said that the statistics from the Norwegian ombudsman showed that 90% of calls were actually from parents and only 10% from children. I think I am correct in taking your point that perhaps parents are making their children's voices heard themselves and that we may not actually need to separately access the voices of children. While those statistics suggest that parents are quick to pick up the phone to the Norwegian ombudsman to make a complaint and say that they want their children's rights to be upheld, there are also a lot of children in Northern Ireland who feel that they need to talk to someone directly, rather than through the parent.

276.

Mr K Robinson: Those are the children that I want to bring into the spotlight, and I am afraid that we are not doing that. That is what I was saying about finding a balance.

277.

Dr Rodgers: We can learn a lot from the Norwegian model as well. As Margaret Kelly has said, we have an opportunity here to create an excellent model of practice in how we communicate with children. There is all to play for. I know that the young people whom I work with every day feel that there is a sense of apathy in how services and systems relate to them, that they do not really want to engage with them and are not really very interested, and when the young people do say what they need, nothing really happens anyway. There is a major task ahead to pull in children and young people and say that we actually do want to listen to them and will act on what they say.

278.

Mr K Robinson: It is almost a situation where the parents' demands for their pound of flesh from officialdom takes precedence over the need to deal with a child's specific problem. That is the nub of it.

279.

Dr Rodgers: That is a very good point.

280.

Mr K Robinson: I want to flag that up now at an early stage, because those figures suggest that there could be an imbalance.

281.

Dr Rodgers: Our total concern throughout is the best interests of the child and setting up the best mechanisms to respond to the child's concerns.

282.

Ms Mills: The telephone service in Norway is only one of a range of mechanisms that children and parents have to contact the ombudsman. There is a child-specific hotline to the ombudsman's office, an internet service, and projects with schools and community groups. It is perhaps unfortunate that we chose that example, but it is only one of a number of mechanisms.

283.

Mr K Robinson: At least it makes us aware that there might be a problem.

284.

Ms P Kelly: There are some models of practice where even if the parent is the first point of contact - and we hope that this would be the case - the Commissioner then engages directly with the child. It may be that the children do not want any action to be taken in a particular case, either because they have to go back to that school or they feel that they can deal with the matter themselves. It is very important for the Children's Commissioner to be accessible to children and young people and to listen to their voices. While the case may be that the parent is the first person to get in touch, we in the Children's Law Centre hope that the Commissioner will engage directly with the children and take on board what they want to happen.

285.

Mr K Robinson: What would you do in a situation where you had contact with the parents and the child, and the child wants to go to the right but the parents are determined to pull the child to the left? What does the Commissioner do in that situation? Do you come down automatically on the side of the child all the time, or do you find a balance?

286.

Ms P Kelly: It is very hard to generalise, but we hope that the principle on which the commission works will be in the best interests of the child, and that involves listening very clearly to the child's voice.

287.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation and for responding to our questions.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 28 March 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Ms Courtney
Mr Maskey
Dr McDonnell
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs M Cunningham ) Child Care NI
Ms K Yiasouma ) Include Youth
Ms P Walker ) National Deaf Children's
Society
Ms J Kilfeather ) Southern Travellers Early
Years Partnership
Mr C Reid ) National Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to
Children (NSPCC)

288.

The Chairperson: I again welcome Mary Cunningham. For this evidence session she is joined by Jacquie Kilfeather from the Southern Travellers Early Years Partnership, Pauline Walker from the National Deaf Children's Society, Colin Reid from the NSPCC and - I have not had any prompting on this so if I make a mess of it, please excuse me - Koulla Yiasouma from Include Youth.

289.

Ms Yiasouma: Excellent.

290.

Mr Shannon: He was practising that for 10 minutes before you came in.

291.

Mrs Cunningham: In discussions with the Committee Clerk, he identified some specific issues that he thought were important for the Committee to hear evidence on. Koulla Yiasouma will address issues relating to juvenile justice and the Commissioner. Colin Reid will speak about child protection and the Commissioner. He should be able to answer some of the specific questions raised during the earlier evidence session. Pauline Walker will cover issues about disability and the Commissioner, and she will perhaps be able to deal with some of the concerns that Mr Beggs had about where disabled children fit in in relation to the Equality Commissioner and the Children's Commissioner. Jacquie Kilfeather will look specifically at minority ethnic children and the role of the Commissioner.

292.

Ms Yiasouma: Include Youth is an organisation concerned primarily with promoting best practice in regard to children and young people at risk. I will explain briefly about children in the criminal justice system, what we know about them in Northern Ireland and how we feel a Children's Commissioner would add value to the services currently existing for children.

293.

When we talk about children in the criminal justice system, we are talking about children between the ages of 10 and 17 inclusively. You will all be aware that 10 is regarded as the age of criminal responsibility. Any child under the age of 10 is not deemed as responsible.

294.

We know that last year over 340 children and young people were locked up in Northern Ireland. We know that 30% of those children came directly from the residential childcare sector. In Northern Ireland, we incarcerate more children for less serious offences than they do in Great Britain. In Northern Ireland we incarcerate children who offend. If they committed those same offences as adults, they would not be locked up.

295.

Nearly 600 children were subject to statutory supervision orders in the community last year, supervised by the Probation Service. Nearly 500 children were involved last year in a voluntary capacity with a statutory agency because of their offending or because they were at risk of offending. Additionally, there are a large number of children in Northern Ireland who are working with community groups at a local level. We do not have figures for them. We are talking about quite a few children.

296.

At any given time, about 30 children are locked up in our two juvenile justice centres, and over 600 children and young people are being worked with in the community because of their offending. These children do not simply appear out of the blue. There is extensive research - I accept that it is not based in Northern Ireland - that has identified factors which, if they exist in children's backgrounds, are more likely to lead to them offending. Before I tell you what those factors are, the health warning is that just because children live in these conditions, it does not mean that they are going to be offenders. It is likely that children who do go on to offend may have one or more of the following in their background.

297.

We know that children who go on to offend are likely to have had difficulties, when they were small babies, with attaching to their parents. They may have been of a low birth weight. They are more likely to live in situations of economic deprivation and poor housing. They are more likely to have had educational difficulties, poor school attendance and low academic achievement. Their parental supervision will have been what some people would call poor, and they will have been subject to erratic discipline in the home. There is likely to be conflict in the home. There are also statistics to show that children of parents who offend are more likely to offend themselves. There are also peer and community influences that may increase the risk of children offending.

298.

We can prevent offending if we institute interventions that would negate any of the things I have just talked about. We do know that custody does not work with children who have committed offences. In Northern Ireland, the estimates are that between 86% and 97% of children and young people re-offend within three years if they have gone into custody. Locking up children and young people serves the needs of society but not necessarily those of the children.

299.

That is not to say that a certain number of children will not need to be taken into custody to protect the public as well as themselves and their communities. However, only 25% of children who are locked up are locked up for violent offences. The challenge for any youth justice system and children's services is how to balance the needs of the public with the needs of the child.

300.

Community-based resources that are based on research are most likely to be successful with a child. Interventions which have clear target groups, which identify a programme with a set beginning, middle and end, which involve groups of young people who have similar needs, and which are run by committed, well- trained and skilled staff are more likely to be successful.

301.

What would the Children's Commissioner add to the provision of children's services? Many of you have asked about criminal justice. We are very clear that youth justice must fall within the remit of the Children's Commissioner. Children who offend can come from many schools and at any one time can be the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Probation Board, the health and social services boards, the RUC, the juvenile justice centres and the education and library boards. That is a lot of agencies.

302.

In spite of the good intentions and commitment of those agencies, it is clear that there is a lack of strategic planning and policy development to meet the needs of the children and their families. The agencies must work more coherently for the benefit of children, families and communities as well as for the victims of the crimes. There has been an extensive criminal justice review recently and I appreciate that this is not part of the remit of the Assembly. However, the review fudged the issue of inter-agency working. We need an institution or body, without a vested agency interest, that can completely cross the divides.

303.

There is clear evidence that when there are constant breaches of the rights of children in the criminal justice system they do not assert their rights. They need a champion who can pursue those issues on their behalf.

304.

Mr Reid: It is well known that Northern Ireland has unacceptable levels of child abuse and that this is due to very complex reasons. We compare unfavourably with other parts of the UK and Europe. In terms of per capita spending on child and family services Northern Ireland spends significantly less than England. Northern Ireland spends £143 per person and England spends £211. Northern Ireland has more children in care than England. We have higher registration figures for the child protection register than other parts of the UK. Last year there were 3,348 offences reported to the police in Northern Ireland, nearly 800 of which involved sexual offences against children. To put that to you in a more graphic way, in an average week in Northern Ireland three children are raped or buggered and another 12 will be indecently assaulted. That will happen this week, next week and for the weeks to come until we tackle this problem.

305.

We feel that the Children's Commissioner would play a pivotal role in protecting children. Ms Margaret Kelly talked about producing a report on the state of children in Northern Ireland, but joined-up statistics are very hard to come by. Different Government Departments collate statistics in various ways. For example, we have no clear idea at the moment of the number of people who are convicted for offences against children in Northern Ireland, and that is a key indicator of which measures are working and which are not. We need clear, good quality information to plan services and to see what works.

306.

We need the Commissioner to be a source of informed expertise for the press and the public. Research has shown that child abuse and its causes do not receive sufficient attention in the press, and misconceptions are common when the issue does receive press coverage. For example, "stranger danger" and sexual abuse are never out of the press, but if children are going to be abused by their parents they are seven times more likely to be physically abused than sexually abused.

307.

Children aged under 12 months are three times more likely to be placed on the child protection register. There are many myths and misconceptions, and we need to work with the media to profile what will protect children.

308.

With regard to facilitating policy development in Government Departments, there has been under- investment in children's services. I am sure we will lobby for more money, but money is not the answer. There are many interlinking policy developments which would work to protect children. There are issues that need cross-governmental support, cross-community support and cross-border support. We are due to get new vetting legislation this year, but it will not work unless we have equivalent legislation in the Irish Republic. Likewise, the management of sex offenders needs co-operation from the United Kingdom and Europe. The Commissioner would play an important role in this debate.

309.

With regard to investigating individual cases, you asked questions about the Commissioner having sufficient investigatory powers. The Commissioner would need to have powers of subpoena and discovery. There are well-established protocols for the investigation of child abuse. It would not be the responsibility of the Commissioner, but he would have to work with existing organisations when things go wrong.

310.

Finally, with regard to disseminating information and best practice that will protect children, the Commissioner would be well placed to develop expertise and carry out research, and to act as a dynamic force inside and outside Government to produce best practice that will protect children on a rights-based approach.

311.

Ms Walker: When I was asked to speak today I thought about how a Commissioner would work for children with a disability, not why we needed a Commissioner. I obtained a statistic, but it dates from 1992. It is estimated that there are 14,600 children with a disability in Northern Ireland, which is a rate of 35 per 1,000. That represents a large minority of children who have very special and individual needs. I would ask you to look at disability issues and the role of the Commissioner.

312.

I would like to make three broad points. First, it must be remembered that children with a disability are children first. All policy and legislation involving children must, by definition, include children with a disability. The Commissioner should ensure that children with a disability are at the core of everything that he or she does and that their needs are truly taken into account. Secondly, the needs of children with a disability must be considered in all legislation and policy based around disability in general. For example, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 does not affect children under the age of 16. Not a lot of people know that, but why should this be the case?

313.

The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 is being reviewed and perhaps a Commissioner for Children would be able to proactively ensure that children's issues are considered in such legislation. Another example, which is not to do with legislation, is that when boards and health and social services trusts, et cetera, commission surveys for access for people with a disability, very often the results only relate to access for adults. Children with a disability are very rarely taken into account in those situations. The Commissioner could ensure that children are represented properly.

314.

Thirdly, the term "children with a disability" refers to a huge, varied group with vastly differing needs. The Commissioner would have to ensure that he or she is properly advised - perhaps by a representative advisory group of children's disability organisations or people who work with children with a disability. It is not enough to take advice from only one group and feel fully informed.

315.

Children with learning, physical and sensory disabilities, as well as those with multiple disabilities, have different needs, and, along with all children in Northern Ireland, they have the right to have those needs considered.

316.

Ms Kilfeather: Some of the information I will give today will focus specifically on Travellers, because it is widely recognised that Travellers are one of the most disadvantaged groups in our society. However, I will also talk about other ethnic minorities.

317.

The exact numbers in ethnic minorities in Northern Ireland are unknown, but it is estimated that there are just under 26,000 people. The largest of the ethnic minorities is the Chinese community with between 7,000 and 8,000 members. There are some 1,500 Indians and 1,000 Pakistanis. Africans and Afro-Caribbeans number 1,000, and there is a Jewish community of 500. There are also a number of other minorities.

318.

The language and communication barrier is one of the main issues affecting the ethnic minorities in Northern Ireland. Access to a wide range of services, such as health, education, social services and accommodation - which the community in general takes for granted - is denied to minorities.

319.

The fact that ethnic minority children are less likely to access pre-school services is a concern. There are low levels of educational attainment, and racism and discrimination can lead to an underestimation of the level of underachievement in Northern Ireland.

320.

Often a lot of adults of the minorities have little or no English, as it is not their first language. That makes it difficult for ethnic minorities to understand what is going on around them or indeed, for other people to understand them. The wide range of information that is written in English is difficult for the minorities to access and understand.

321.

There is a shortage of trained interpreters, and that creates a problem with the accurate translation of information. There have been difficulties for communities accessing information in their mother tongue, although that has recently been addressed and such material is more readily available. Community representatives have expressed the concern that their children are expected to translate from English to overcome that barrier. That system is inappropriate, as it relies on the child's ability to translate into two languages. It also relies on the child's level of understanding which is limited when dealing with such matters as medical issues. There is a concern that an illness could be easily misdiagnosed.

322.

Children are exposed to information that is unsuitable for their level of development. Due to poor literacy, Travellers find it difficult to access information, although they speak English. Material that is written in English - or any written material - will still be unsuitable for Travellers.

323.

Minority children are less likely to have access to pre-school education due to the communication barrier and their lack of linguistic understanding. Educational settings often do not reflect cultural diversity and parents fear that their children will be discriminated against. It is crucial that a child's culture be valued in order for the child to develop his or her sense of identity and self-esteem. Children from ethnic communities beginning school are disadvantaged because of their limited experience outside the home. They are unfamiliar with educational structures when they go to school - it takes them longer to understand those structures and more patience should be shown towards those children. A child can sometimes be the only one from an ethnic community in certain settings and that can lead to the child being isolated, different from others and not fitting in. That has a dramatic impact on their self-esteem. Play is seen as a luxury - it is not seen as essential to the child's development.

324.

In the education system, ethnic minorities tend to be playing catch up. That is due to the fact that they did not have the opportunity of pre-school education. Children leave school with basic literacy skills. Education attainment levels for Travellers' children remain low. Most of them leave school with no GCSEs, and that is very often coupled with the fact that they leave at 14 years of age because they view the curriculum as being irrelevant to their culture. Young people have experienced racism in school from teachers and pupils. Ethnic diversity needs to be respected through the recognition of cultural and religious diversity.

325.

I refer to research carried out by the Commission for Racial Equality in 1999 which found that the majority of teachers felt that they were inadequately prepared, either in initial or in-service training, to work with children from ethnic minorities. Last year Mr Paul Connolly produced a report 'Education Opportunities For All', which highlighted the issues surrounding ethnic minorities in the formal education system.

326.

I will provide some statistics sourced from research published last year, also conducted by Mr Paul Connolly, on racial attitudes and prejudice in Northern Ireland. Generally, one in five of the population is likely to belong to a social grouping where name calling occurs to one extent or another and is thought to be normal behaviour. Twice as many respondents were unwilling to accept and/or mix with members of minority ethnic communities as compared to those in the other main religious traditions. Fifty-four per cent of respondents stated that they were unwilling to accept a person of south Asian origin as a relative by marriage, and the figure was 53% in relation to people of Chinese origin. Fifty-seven per cent were unwilling to accept Travellers as residents in their local areas.

327.

I will conclude with some statistics on Travellers. Eighteen per cent of Travellers are under five years of age compared to 8% of the settled community. Fifty-three percent of Travellers are under 17 years of age, 10% are over 40 years of age, and only 1% live beyond the age of 65 compared to 13% of the settled community. Infant mortality and physical disability rates are three times higher than in the settled community. There are also higher levels of chronic illness than in the settled community, and much of that is caused by poverty and poor living conditions.

328.

The rights of minority ethnic children are often lost in the issues affecting the communities as a whole. A Commissioner for Children would ensure that their rights are given a profile and that their specific needs are addressed.

329.

The Chairperson: I direct my question to Mr Reid. What overarching role do you envisage the Commissioner having with regard to adoption and fostering procedures? There is a need to ensure that children who are adopted or fostered are given full protection, especially bearing in mind that many children are adopted from outside Northern Ireland.

330.

Mr Reid: There are many people who have expertise in fostering and adoption. Both those areas are specialised. I suppose that the Commissioner could play a role by ensuring that the needs of children put up for adoption or fostering are given sufficient political priority, that there are resources available for fostering and adoption, and that there is a good, robust policy that will protect children.

331.

Mr K Robinson: The Asian and Chinese communities tend to value education - others perhaps less so. Sometimes there are difficulties in penetrating those communities, because they are very supportive and they do not always recognise the need to break out of that community into the wider one.

332.

The language-specific problem for schools is a great difficulty. I fail to see how a Commissioner can break through that, when schools cannot acquire a teacher, either with initial training or in-service training, to allow them to properly address a child coming from overseas.

333.

In a Commission submission last week, I pointed out the example of a child who had come from overseas and who was placed in a class, in a reasonably good school, with a teacher. They had not one common word between them. The parent, who was desirous that the child should receive education - because of the parent's ethnic background - had left that poor child there.

334.

The child was popped into the nearest school. Barely a word passed between the child and anyone else in the room. Yet, that was all done for the best possible reason. How does the Commission address that - surely that is a matter for the education authority?

335.

The education authority would then, in turn, claim that it did not have teachers trained properly initially and that it did not have the money for in-service training nor the staffing to allow a peripatetic teacher to travel round to deal with such situations.

336.

Ms Walker: You asked about a disabled child who was being bullied. The Commissioner's job would be to ensure before that happened - and hopefully throughout Northern Ireland - that a child with a disability would not be in that position. That perhaps sounds a bit airy-fairy. Perhaps you feel that the bullying issue may come up because children are mainstreamed a lot.

337.

Mr K Robinson: That happens increasingly.

338.

Ms Walker: One of the very good things that a Commissioner could oversee, or ensure, would be that the various bodies work together to ensure that any child with a disability who is in mainstream education is properly supported.

339.

That does not mean throwing a child with a disability into a class of 30 children and expecting a teacher to look after them alone. Rather that means that they should be properly supported. That would involve the teachers and fellow pupils being informed about the disability and given positive ways of coping with it, so that that child becomes a positive presence in a classroom in a school. Although that sounds idealistic, it is not unattainable.

340.

Mr K Robinson: I was suggesting, perhaps, Education for Mutual Understanding (EMU), which is quite often pigeonholed in another area. Initial and in-service training and general school policies could address that issue. Children would then know that a child with a disability was coming to join them. Equally, the children would then know how to respond in a helpful manner.

341.

Ms Walker: A Commissioner with an overall view could see that way forward better than over-pressurised teachers in schools, who perhaps have to be very reactive to a child with a disability coming in to a school. If mechanisms could be put in place whereby all schools had, as you say, something like EMU or disabilities, that would be brilliant.

342.

Mr K Robinson: Could the Commissioner step in and say to either the education board or the school that education resources must be provided for a certain child? That then begs the question of where the resources would come from. The school will not have them from their local management of schools (LMS) budgets, and the board will say that the Department is not passing the money down the line. A principle is being established, but the resources are not matching it.

343.

Ms Walker: That is something that could initially be included in a review of the education code of practice. That is something that could be tightened up.

344.

Mr K Robinson: We can write codes of practice and policies until we are blue in the face or red in the fingers. However, that will all be a lot of hot air unless we can actually make a difference where the child is.

345.

Mrs Cunningham: The other point is that the Commissioner would have a role in monitoring compliance with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child 1989. The child's right to education is enshrined in that. If a child were not being provided with education that was suitable for the child's ability, rather than his or her disability, the Commissioner would clearly have a role in ensuring that the Government met their responsibilities in providing the child's right to education.

346.

Mr K Robinson: So the resources should be made available?

347.

Mrs Cunningham: Yes.

348.

Ms Kilfeather: The issues are a challenge for us to overcome. There are a great number of differences within ethnic minorities. Consultation must therefore be carried out with each of them. Some things will apply to one or two of those communities, and some to only one. Issues need to be examined with each of the individual groupings.

349.

You are right that different values are placed on education in communities. In the Chinese and Asian communities more value is placed on education; that has not been the case to date in the Traveller community, which has not seen it as relevant to its members or culture. That community has therefore not really embraced education in the same way at all, although a great deal of work is done through Traveller projects to help overcome that. In more recent years, pre-school playgroups have been set up as a starting block for Traveller children, and over the last three or four years we have seen a change in Travellers' attitudes to education.

350.

Some projects deal specifically with adult education. We now have a small number of Travellers who have returned to adult education and who are now emerging with qualifications - something which must continue to happen. Communities must be encouraged to participate in education. The education system must be flexible enough to give them heart to do so.

351.

Mr K Robinson: Could we be accused at some point in the future of educating ethnic groups, including the Travellers, out of their culture? Both of the larger communities on the island claim that it has happened to them - for whatever reason.

352.

Ms Kilfeather: I do not believe so. It is more a matter of how one does it. Education should reflect aspects of students' own culture. There are creative ways of doing so, and perhaps there must be a little more flexibility in the curriculum and greater understanding of cultural diversity. It can be done, but the question of how we go about it is a challenge, both for us in the voluntary sector and for those involved in education. We will need to have further discussions with them on how to progress this.

353.

Ms Yiasouma: I started school at the age of five without a word of English, so my personal experience comes in here. We are not advocating a "melting-pot" approach, but one of mutual celebration and respect. It is standard stuff. We need a baseline - through either education for mutual understanding or personal and social education in schools - whereby we can accept and celebrate whoever comes to us, regardless of disability, colour or race. If we have that baseline, we will not be surprised, and will not need to warn people that little Johnnie, who has difficulty hearing, is coming to join us. If we are all educated to respect whoever we meet, we are less likely to point at them. I love talking about my mother's cooking and about what it is like to be Greek Cypriot, for I have been brought up in a culture where it is all right to be both. It is a matter of how we educate for mutual understanding and respect, moving away from mere tolerance to celebrating our differences.

354.

Mr Beggs: I want to focus on your last comments. You talked about people who cannot speak a word of English. What benefits do you envisage coming from a Children's Commissioner in the area of speech therapy. I have dealt with a number of constituency complaints about a lack of access to speech therapists in both mainstream and specialist schools. In the early formative years, if that assistance is not given the child's education is inhibited from the very start, and he or she falls behind.

355.

Local trusts have had difficulty hiring anybody. That has been relayed to the Minister, who is carrying out some sort of professions allied to medicine (PAM) group review, and I expect to hear something shortly about some major improvements in this area. What added value will the Children's Commissioner bring to such a situation over the normal democratic accountability process of bringing the boards, the trusts and eventually the Minister to account and addressing that issue?

356.

Mrs Cunningham: One of the key roles of the Commissioner will be to monitor the Government's strategy for children in Northern Ireland. The problem that you outlined about speech therapy is going to be very difficult to resolve. But if we had had a longer term strategy for children which stated what we wanted for all of the children in Northern Ireland and looked at how we were going to enable that to happen, we would have identified the shortage of speech therapists at a much earlier stage. Universities are now increasing their intakes of speech therapy students, but that will not have an effect for a number of years.

357.

It is going to be quite difficult to resolve that one in the short term. However, if there had been a national strategy in Northern Ireland for our children that explained the Government's vision for effective communication for our children and then looked at the resources needed to put that in place, we would have been able to take that longer term view.

358.

Ms Walker: It is obviously something that we are concerned with and hear a lot about at the National Deaf Children's Society (NDCS). You said that people have contacted you about the lack of speech therapists. It is to be hoped that a Commissioner for Children would have spotted that or been told about it by the NDCS. The Commissioner could have a long-term plan.

359.

The Commissioner could also do the lobbying - alongside the Assembly - on that issue. At the moment that situation is unbelievably complicated. Families are looking for speech therapists and they are not there, so what do you do? The issue requires long-term planning.

360.

Mr Beggs: Do you accept that if there had been a devolved Administration earlier, there could have been an investigation and a long-term plan instigated? What extra element would the Commissioner have brought into it that accountable democracy would not have?

361.

Mrs Cunningham: The Commissioner would have brought that sense of joined-up thinking. For example, we came forward with proposals in relation to SureStart that suggested that specific help needed to be focused on children aged zero to three. One of the key elements of a lot of SureStart programmes is the need for additional speech therapy. We had a section of a Government Department - such as the social services - coming forward with proposals for SureStart but the health side had not been sufficiently involved at an earlier stage to ensure the delivery of the programme. Despite people's best efforts, the result is a lack of overarching strategies and joined-up thinking. The silo effect within Departments means that it is very difficult to get the kind of cross-fertilisation where people are moving forward collectively on a strategy for children. I think that that is what is missing. There is no collective strategy for children in Northern Ireland.

362.

Ms Walker: While I was listening to the other evidence session this afternoon, it occurred to me that one of the major difficulties of working with disabled children is that, if you are the parent of a disabled child, you have to spend time connecting professionals with each other. As Mrs Cunningham said, we argue, press and lobby for joined-up thinking that will result in Departments talking to each other and taking a whole view of the child. A Commissioner would be able to take a whole view of children's issues and speak to all the Departments involved. That is one of the great values of a Commissioner.

363.

Mrs E Bell: I agree with that. We all have seen those sorts of problems. The areas of health and education - particularly in special schools - are a worry, and I hope that the two Ministers are looking at them. The Department for Social Development should also have responsibilities in those areas. We need joined-up Government, and that is why there should be a Children's Commissioner.

364.

Do you think that the Children's Commissioner should have powers to encourage a review of the juvenile justice system and, for instance, examine the way children are treated when they commit some sort of crime. Alternatively, should the Children's Commissioner simply act as an overseer or supervisor of the relevant Department. Again, it would be better if the Departments were working together on the issue.

365.

How would the Children's Commissioner interact with the Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency with regard to the welfare of children?

366.

Ms Yiasouma: Include Youth has just finished a very long Criminal Justice Review.

367.

Mrs E Bell: I know that.

368.

Ms Yiasouma: Some very good points came out of that review of juvenile justice. The first consultation paper on the Criminal Justice Review made only two references to juvenile justice, and they were to explain why the matter was not going to be examined. Half a chapter was devoted to young people and that was welcome, but it was not sufficiently cross-sector and there were huge deficits.

369.

That review recommended a Juvenile Justice Agency. Once that happens, and we move to the devolution of that agency, the Children's Commissioner would bring the added value of acting as an overseer and arbitrator. We need to identify the deficits in services for children who are in conflict with the law and consider how can we achieve joined-up thinking. There is a school of thought that suggests that the new Juvenile Justice Agency would be better placed in the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. If a Department was child-centred it may encourage joined-up thinking. I am not sure that Include Youth would advocate that a Commissioner should identify deficits and gaps in services and then try to get them filled rather than ordering someone else to do it. We are just entering a huge transitional stage, and it will be interesting to see what it looks like once the dust has settled.

370.

Mrs E Bell: What role do you see the Northern Ireland Probation Board playing? I am a member of the Probation Board. It has been heavily involved in the issue, and we are concerned that the issue may not be dealt with. Do you think that the Probation Board should be overseeing matters and ensuring that the work is carried out?

371.

Ms Yiasouma: Yes. We are not talking only about the criminal justice agencies. The Northern Ireland Probation Board, the RUC and the juvenile justice people all have a certain degree of independence. We are talking about three agencies who sometimes talk to each other and sometimes do not. That is in one Northern Ireland Office remit. I would see the Commissioner having a very big responsibility in oversee and reviewing what is going on.

372.

Mrs E Bell: Health is another important issue. Children with trauma, for instance, should not be locked away at night.

373.

Ms Yiasouma: A number of children are in custody or remand due to the lack of accommodation, and that falls within the responsibility of the trusts. Children are being locked up for stealing packets of biscuits or bottles of shampoo. Children are being locked up where they are on remand and have not been committed. There are a number of issues on which the services have let the children down, and the children have found themselves in custody.

374.

Mrs E Bell: What about the Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency?

375.

Mr Reid: The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency performs a specific role under the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, and it will pick up issues in respect of vulnerable children. I do not think that the Children's Commissioner should replicate what the Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency is doing. The Commissioner should rather add value to that by picking up on gaps.

376.

The Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency and the Commissioner may not agree on a particular issue at a point in time but, in terms of the wider court setting, we feel that the Commissioner should be able to act as an adviser to the court, as an expert witness on important points of principle. For example, we know that the official solicitor performs a particular role in terms of representation of children in certain circumstances - but that role does not extend across the whole court system and there are situations where children have basically not been represented by anyone, particularly in private law cases.

377.

Mrs E Bell: That is what I was thinking; the Commissioner would ensure proper representation.

378.

Mr Shannon: I have two questions - one for Ms Walker and one for Mr Reid. Ms Walker, with regards to opportunities for children with disabilities, and specifically to those who are deaf, do you see a role for the Commissioner in ensuring that there are opportunities for those children, and how do you see that working? I am thinking about the funding that is available or unavailable.

379.

Mr Reid, earlier you mentioned statistics relating to sexual abuse of children in Northern Ireland. How do you see the role of the Children's Commissioner in responding to that issue, and how do you see him or her ultimately helping to address, and reduce, the incidences of sexual abuse in Northern Ireland? They are certainly horrendous and very stark.

380.

Mrs E Bell: I apologise that I have to leave to see someone.

381.

Ms Walker: Could you repeat your question, please?

382.

Mr Shannon: Is there a role for the Commissioner in ensuring that for children with, for example, deaf disabilities, there are opportunities to avail of activities in the Province? One of the problems has been the lack of available finance - whether from the Sports Council for Northern Ireland or the Lottery.

383.

Ms Walker: I see a role for the Commissioner if it is obvious that there is discrimination, and I think that you might be right that there is. There are other channels to go through to ensure that discrimination does not happen - not putting all disabled young people into one group would be a start. However, if there is a lack of funding, it would be the Commissioner's job to look into that and to see why it is happening. Are you talking specifically about sport?

384.

Mr Shannon: Yes.

385.

Ms Walker: Regarding deaf children and young people, not enough money is spent on sport. Historically it has been assumed that young people with a disability would not be interested in sport. As was said earlier, long-term planning by the Commissioner should ensure that that lack of provision does not occur in the future. He or she should seek information from the various bodies and organisations and make sure that that sort of thing does not happen.

386.

Mr Reid: Your question is a complex one to answer precisely. In trying to deal with the level of child sex abuse, a Commissioner would have a role - certainly in terms of profiling issues with the wider public, the media and politicians - so that they know what the real facts are and the key messages that they need to get out. We need better and more effective joined-up legislation and policy, and practice that promotes better protection of children.

387.

Mrs Courtney: The more that we talk about a Children's Commissioner, the more this person is going to need an awful lot of skills. There certainly needs to be joined-up Government and legislation concerning child protection. It is quite stark when you say that three children per week will be abused, and will continue to be abused into eternity, by the sounds of it.

388.

Is there evidence that the professionals who currently work with children know about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? Would you suggest that the Commissioner should have a role in promoting convention issues with those professionals? On the issue of the juvenile justice system, do you think that the Commissioner should be given the power to represent a child before a criminal court when a child is on trial, in order to ensure real protection for the child?

389.

Mr Reid: With regard to a rights-based approach with professionals who work with children, I have to say that our knowledge and understanding was not as great as it should have been. That is changing for various reasons, and we should not see children's rights as having an adverse impact on family rights. In many ways they are interconnected.

390.

The whole issue of equality and the section 75 duty has great benefits to deliver for children. With the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission we will see a more equitable society.

391.

Ms Yiasouma: You asked if a Commissioner should act like a guardian ad litem during care proceedings? If that were the case, the Commissioner would be very busy, and there probably would not be enough hours in the day, bearing in mind how many children go through the courts. There is a school of thought that we need a guardian ad litem type of service.

392.

One of the recommendations of the criminal justice review was to do with youth conferencing where children and victims would get together pre-sentence, but after conviction, to talk. It would be more inclusive. They would be more involved and it would be a less threatening experience for them in the courts. That should be an independently run service. If youth conferencing does not ensure that children's rights are being met in the court process, we would probably argue for a guardian ad litem type of service. At present the best interests of the child are not necessarily met in criminal courts.

393.

Mrs Cunningham: I would like to make two points with regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. There is growing awareness of the responsibilities of agencies in the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, including awareness from the Assembly of its responsibilities under that convention. One of the key roles of the Commissioner would be to act as an independent monitor to ensure that the Government are meeting their obligations on the convention. Another role for the Commissioner would be to have the responsibility of intervening, when and as appropriate, in any legal proceedings that may have implications for children's rights. The Commissioner should also have the capacity to take cases on behalf of children, or to support children to take cases in circumstances where their rights have been denied.

394.

Mr Maskey: All the witnesses today have given 101 reasons why we need a Commissioner. My difficulty is that we are not yet sure what statutory authority or what level of resources the Commissioner will have. I am involved in a partnership which has a children and young persons sub-group. In the past few years we tried to bring the various agencies together, but it was so frustrating because papers such as truancy figures were not being handed over to other organisations. If people were lucky they ended up with probation issues. That is the irony - we have figures for people who were at risk and people who should be at risk, but the social services lack the resources. The education boards could not hand over information. All the signs and symptoms were there which would lead to problems that Ms Yiasouma dealt with, but there is no direct correlation.

395.

Mr Reid talked about getting people to work together. I would like the Commissioner to have the authority to go in there and get matters sorted out. There are a lot of policies, but very often people do not work well together. Mrs Cunningham talked about the silo mentality. It is frustrating and you have all identified it. Initially, what would the primary focus be for a new Commissioner? Where would he or she need to direct attention at the outset?

396.

Mrs Cunningham: That is quite a difficult question. We have identified the need for a Commissioner, and we know that we are talking to the converted in that the Assembly has also identified the need for a Commissioner. I hope that what we have done this afternoon is take that commitment and look at what it may mean in practice.

397.

The point you make is related to duties and powers. Unless the Commissioner has the power to address the issues which you and we have identified then it will be tokenism. The Commissioner will not add value in the way you stated.

398.

In relation to the primary focus of the Commissioner, there must be an overarching strategy for children in Northern Ireland. The Assembly must decide what outcome it wants for the children of Northern Ireland. The Commissioner would have a key role in advising, informing and influencing the strategy. It will not be his or her job to produce the strategy. There will be issues for the Assembly to decide on in terms of informing the Office of the Commissioner and facilitating the input from children and young people as to what they want from their lives in Northern Ireland. Once that strategy is in place, the Commissioner should monitor how it works in practice. We could have the best plan in the world but if it is not implemented properly it will be of no value.

399.

In trying to ensure that there are adequate resources, the Commissioner has a clear role. As a state, we are failing our children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child if we do not ensure that the necessary resources are made available. We are not saying that we need lots of additional moneys, but we need to make effective use of the moneys that we do have. Looking inwards, it is not through a lack of commitment among the practitioners on the ground. They are working well in the best interests of children. It is at a strategic level that people are not looking outside their own boxes.

400.

One of the other points raised today is that the child's needs are not addressed because there is a lack of resources. The Commissioner will have a clear role and a statutory responsibility, once the child's needs are identified, to meet those needs and the resources must be made available. We must have a needs-led response to children rather than a resources-led response.

401.

Ms Yiasouma: Our first priority should be to ascertain how children live in Northern Ireland. We will then be in a position to address their needs. The Children's Commissioner would also initiate an atmosphere of creativity so that the bits of the old book that do not work can be thrown away and a new section opened that may be more successful.

402.

Dr McDonnell: There seems to be a need for a Commissioner for parents - certainly a Commissioner for fathers - because I have two children whose rights are absolute and I have no rights. Joking aside, I would ask a couple of simple questions. I have listened intently to your submission and a good part of the previous evidence session. Most of my life I have operated as a general practitioner. One faces the problem of how to strike the balance in relation to openness, transparency and freedom. What are the rights, and where is the privacy and the protection, of the individual? Quite often the effort to sustain, or demand publicly, a right undermines another right or part of the same right. One of the problems that I see with children that are in difficulty or who are on the verge of going into care is striking the right balance. One can ask the question as to how much of the situation should be recorded. Someone else in 20 years' time could read my record of a child's situation now and perhaps stigmatise that person, whereas I was just recording the matter as little more than an aide-memoire.

403.

Mr Reid: It is a very complicated question. Some of the most difficult situations I faced when I worked for the social services were in respect of the conflicting rights of parents and children. There is no easy answer, and we know how the Gillick case redefined those rights. On children's rights versus family rights, the two are often very similar.

404.

Dr McDonnell: I am not really criticising - perhaps I was being facetious earlier. I am looking at the issue of openness. Let us take the worst example possible - a child who is sexually abused. If such a case is followed through the court system then, despite all the secrecy on earth, there is still a stigma. The whispers from the general community show that it knows that something is going on. My difficulty is how the two things can be balanced. On what basis do you decide to take a case of sexual abuse? Quite often it can create problems that are almost as damaging and threatening to the individual as the original abuse?

405.

Mrs Cunningham: It is a very difficult question. We are not saying that to protect children's rights we should not address issues of sexual abuse. We need to look at the systems and ensure that matters, such things as the court system and the experience that children and young people have when giving evidence in court, do not add additional trauma.

406.

I worked in residential care, and very young children were removed to a children's home because they were being abused at home. The system was contributing to that trauma in that it was the child - the innocent party - who was being removed and not the abuser. The Commissioner would have a role in ensuring that, in sexual abuse cases, the system - be it in the form of the social services, the court system, or the media - was not adding to the abuse.

407.

Dr McDonnell: You picked a very good example because it is the victim who is often disadvantaged and has to pay the price. That is my point, and it is about how you arrive at a balance.

408.

Mrs Cunningham: We have made some progress on the issue of listening to children. However, we still have a long way to go. Trond Waage said that if, as adults, we have a belief and have faith in the competence of children then we should not make processes more difficult for them. If a child comes forward and says "This is happening to me", then he or she should not have to jump through a series of very traumatic hoops before being taken seriously.

409.

Dr McDonnell: What process should be used to appoint the Commissioner?

410.

Mrs Cunningham: In our paper we identified the process that we feel should be used. There must be an independent selection process which complies with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the Principles Relating to the Status of National Institutions approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in Resolution 48/134 of 1993, generally known as the Paris Principles.

411.

Dr McDonnell: I was just asking whether the appointment should be made on an impartial basis. Should it be independent of Government or should it be an elected person?

412.

Mrs Cunningham: In terms of election or selection, we favour an appointment through an independent system, outside of the Assembly. The process should involve children, young people and, if possible, their parents.

413.

Dr McDonnell: Yes, but it is very difficult to strike a balance. The Executive are reasonably central and neutral. If you make the process more independent, you are faced with a dilemma. As you involve others, you enter into their various prejudices. If you involve 20 people in the process, there will be 25 others outside the doors screaming that they were excluded. That is what is taxing me. I do not know how we get round this.

414.

Mrs Cunningham: The recruitment process should certainly be an open one. When we are looking for a Commissioner, we should use a skills, competence and experience model, rather than definitively saying that this or that qualification is needed. We should be looking for someone who can relate to young people and who has experience of working with young people. It should be an open public appointment.

415.

Dr McDonnell: The dilemma for the Executive would be that various outside people will have various subjective views on how skills should be weighted, or what skills should be given priority. I see it as perhaps a major -

416.

Ms Yiasouma: I think that there are a number of areas from which you could seek assistance in drawing up those competencies and skills. One would be the childcare sector and another would be the statutory agencies that work with children. Also there would be the children and young people themselves. It would be helpful if they could be involved in drawing up the person specification. If the people doing the interviewing or selection adhere to the specification, then it should remove some of the prejudices.

417.

Mrs Cunningham: It is also important that we look to the best models elsewhere in regard to appointment. We support the model of the Welsh process. It might be worth considering whether to involve some of the current ombudsmen in helping to influence and shape that process.

418.

Dr McDonnell: How long do you think somebody should be appointed for? Should it be two years, three years or 10 years?

419.

Mrs Cunningham: I think that two or three years is too short and that 10 years is too long. The Norwegian Ombudsman's term is somewhere in the region of five years, with the possibility of an extension. This is a big job, particularly if part of the focus is ensuring that the person is recognisable to children. If it is a moving head who changes every couple of years, it is going to be very difficult to get that kind of continuity.

420.

The Chairperson: Should the Commissioner have duties as opposed to responsibilities?

421.

Mrs Cunningham: The Commissioner must have both. The Commissioner should have duties that he or she can be held accountable for.

422.

The Chairperson: There are some things that the Commissioner should have to do, irrespective of resources?

423.

Mrs Cunningham: Absolutely.

424.

The Chairperson: Thank you all for coming and giving of your time. In particular, I thank Mrs Cunningham for bringing everybody together. It has been a very useful session, and the Committee will be taking cognisance of what you - the people working at the coalface - have to say.

425.

Mrs Cunningham: We thank you for setting aside almost a whole afternoon to hear our evidence. As has been said previously, we welcome the commitment from the Assembly, from the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy Minister and from this Committee to inform the process of establishing a Commissioner for Children.

426.

Mr Beggs asked earlier what this Committee could do. We urge the Committee to adopt a holistic vision for the Children's Commissioner - one which places children first, but which would have the legal clout to act in relation to services and bodies which involve children, or in circumstances where their well-being was affected, that the best possible outcomes for our children can be assured.

427.

The Chairperson: Thank you.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 4 April 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Ms Courtney
Mr Leslie
Mr McMenamin
Mr C Murphy

Witnesses:

Miss F Mullin )
Miss W O'Shea )
Ms S Willis )
Miss H McAuley )
Mr M Caldwell ) Western Young People's
Miss N Rodgers ) Steering Group
Mr M Harrigan )
Miss E Welch )
Miss N Clifford )
Miss G Murphy )
Miss E McCaffrey )

428.

The Chairperson: The Committee is looking at what role a Commissioner for Children in Northern Ireland should have. We consider it important to listen to the ideas and views of young people and we welcome you here today. We hope you do not find the format of our meeting off-putting and fully appreciate that you have not had much time to prepare for the meeting, but thank you for making preparations. I understand that someone will be making a presentation and then we will open up to the Committee to ask questions.

429.

Ms Willis: We thank you for giving up your time to let us voice our opinions about issues that have an impact on young people's lives. The opportunity was provided to our group through our involvement in the Children's Services Plans. If there are any questions about the group, feel free to ask Eamon McTernan.

430.

We have been asked for our views on two questions, the first concerning the role of the Commissioner and the second how Assembly Committees such as this should consult young people. I shall now pass you on to Ms O'Shea, who will provide you with our insights.

431.

Miss O'Shea: After we discussed and examined the questions, we felt that they were similar in that they concerned young people's participation in a consultation process. We must be taken seriously and feel as if we are being listened to. There must be a breaking down of barriers so that access to the consultation is open to as many young people as possible. By this we mean that sitting in the great hall at Magee College speaking to senior politicians with the public and press present is extremely daunting. You must recognise that young people and other groups feel threatened by this environment. We suggest that for future meetings only three representatives from the Committee meet with a group in a much less formal and more relaxed environment, for example, the tea room at Stormont.

432.

There must also be a complete change in attitudes and ways of thinking, owing to the fact that young people and adults almost speak different languages - something especially true of politicians. That must be reflected in materials and resources produced by young people on the subject of the Children's Commissioner. On top of the above, the Commissioner must advocate and argue for young people's rights. He or she must also have the legislative powers to make changes across different sectors and services, which at times appear at odds with one another. He or she must also be easily accessible, both physically and mentally, so that young people's minds are relaxed. The role must not be tokenistic, something also true of young people's participation, if real change is sought.

433.

Young people must feel the person is approachable and that it is their post. We therefore suggest young people be involved in the interview process and that young people's sub-committees be established. It must be done taking geographical areas into consideration and must be age and issue-specific. We examined numerous other issues that we would have liked to have the opportunity to tell you about. However, our message is that young people can and want to be involved and can provide ideas. After all, it is about our future. We hope we can elaborate in the course of the discussion. Thank you for your time, and I am sure you will be hearing from us again soon.

434.

The Chairperson: If no one has anything to add at this stage are we ready to take questions? I should like to reiterate that you should feel relaxed about today's proceedings and not feel you are under any particular pressure. If a question is asked, which someone would like to take, you should do so rather than sit looking at each other. You will find that as we go along things will free up and you will probably find it easier to speak. However, do not be afraid to get in at the start. Sometimes if you do not get in at the start you find it harder to get in at the end because everyone will want to speak then.

435.

How do you see the role of a Children's Commissioner in assisting young people, and what particular things would you like the Commissioner to have charge of? For example, should he or she have a very broad role and remit in children's affairs, or should it be a very narrow and specific remit dealing particularly with such matters as child abuse? What broader issues would you like to see included?

436.

Miss O'Shea: It should not only be for certain issues around certain people, but also for every young person, because everybody is an individual with his or her own problems. If you are only addressing certain issues - like child abuse - then you are not reaching everybody.

437.

Ms Willis: Not every young person's problems are identified and not many people can see that.

438.

Miss Welch: We had a brainstorming session earlier on the issues that we think affect young people. A young person can have at least 10 issues and another young person 10 more completely different ones. Everyone is completely different.

439.

Mr Leslie: The fact that you have 10 problems and the next person has 10 different ones makes you no different to adults, which is just a fact of life. The issue, therefore, is that one person will have to deal with as many things as possible, and we have to identify the most important ones.

440.

Miss O'Shea: That is why we suggested having sub-committees of young people, and even other sub- committees, so that everybody is approached.

441.

Miss Welch

442.

You have to understand that a teenager's or a young person's needs and issues are completely different to those of an adult.

443.

Miss O'Shea: Adults can deal with their own problems, we cannot.

444.

Miss McAuley: We could deal with them in a better way if you could help us. It would not be such a big problem if we had somebody to give us support.

445.

Mr Leslie: It is a question of finding the starting point. As a result of your brainstorm, did you, by any chance, end up with a list of identified problems?

446.

Miss Welch: Yes, we did. We followed them through to the effects and how they can be solved.

447.

Miss McAuley: This morning we split up into two groups of five and this is what one of the groups came up with. It is a broad range. These are relevant problems and they affect every young person in Northern Ireland.

448.

Miss O'Shea: The identified problems are: religion; education; sex; drugs; sexual harassment; alcohol; pregnancy; relationships; peer pressure; family problems; lack of youth clubs and facilities; residential care; money; jobs and unemployment; social workers; CCTV; bullying; paramilitaries; poverty; homelessness; lack of hostels, health; sexuality; depression; suicide; policing problems; street violence; domestic violence; disabilities; self-esteem and confidence.

449.

Miss McAuley: There are many more. We then went on to cover the effects.

450.

Miss O'Shea: There are many effects that can happen if young people are not listened to and if they do not have their health. They could have criminal records, low self-esteem, suicide, depression, break-down of communication, drugs and alcohol intake or an overdose, social exclusion, teenage pregnancy, young offenders' centres, assaults, murders, excluded from school, getting put in a home, shoplifting, fraud, having a social worker, death, abortion or adoption, lack of respect, homelessness, poverty, GBH, policing problems and body harm.

451.

Mr Leslie: All right, I think that gives us a fair picture.

452.

Miss Welch: We have thoughts about solutions. We look forward to helping young people with such issues.

453.

The Chairperson: Do you want to talk about the solutions?

454.

Miss Welch: Young people must be listened to; we are young people, but we do not find that to be the case. We need more funding for health and social projects. Contraception should be made more widely available to help prevent pregnancies. Most of all we need proper education on all the issues. That can be done in schools, youth clubs, residential care, drop-in and healthcare centres or churches. Properly trained people must be available to talk to young people. They do not want someone who has read a book and thinks they know everything - they want someone who can identify with them. A young person will not feel relaxed in such an environment. We need social workers whose experience and knowledge are up to date; we need support groups. There must be more jobs for young people to get them off the streets. In the Nucleus Centre we are trained to deal with young people's issues. We need more resources like that in Northern Ireland to help, as there is an obvious need. We want to know why the resources are not there and why we are not getting help.

455.

Mr Leslie: In a sense, that is what we are trying to address. Your presentation was fascinating.

456.

Miss Mullin: The point she is trying to get across is that, while the Commissioner might not have to know of every individual's problems, if someone needs a specific solution or help the Commissioner must know if the person has more than one problem. Someone could suffer from domestic violence and also be excluded from school. The counsellor helping them with domestic violence might not necessarily know of their exclusion, or vice versa. The Commissioner must realise that such groups must act together; they cannot simply work with a person separately without realising that the person might have more than one problem.

457.

Miss Welch: It is very hard on a young person to have 10 different issues dealt with separately by 10 different people.

458.

Mr McMenamin: Sometimes we also feel like that. You are all most welcome, and thank you very much for your presentation. Young people are the voice of the future, which is not too far away since you must be 16 or 17, and at 18 you become an adult. Every person, no matter who they are, must have a goal in life. You can look at everyone's problems, but if you have no goal yourself, you are wasting your time. Each and every young person must have a goal, though you should by all means help each other along the way. It is by coming together and having meetings such as this that you really get to know one another. If you could change one thing, what would it be?

459.

Miss Welch: Attitudes.

460.

Miss Mullin: Stereotypical attitudes. You were saying that every young person must have a goal. I am sure there are millions of young people with goals, but without the opportunities to fulfil them. Obviously we have had the opportunity to come in today and give off stink, but we cannot be sure that you will do anything about it. We have been told you will, but whether you actually do so is another matter. We have access to resources because we have done courses and are in youth clubs, but there are people who do not. Even in the present context, if one of us had an extremely bad speech impediment, can you imagine their coming in and trying to address people as high up in political life as yourselves? It is a difficult situation and must be made more relaxed. Advise people on their goals; give them ideas. People suffering from depression, eating disorders or multiple problems will not have a goal in life.

461.

Mr McMenamin: That is where friendship comes in and where a helping hand helps people along the way. That could be your goal in life - to actually guide people in the right direction. There are leaders in communities, and others are followers. It is great to see a group of such diverse thinking. Everyone has problems, but the only person who can sort them out is that individual. People will assist others but you have to be assertive enough to try to sort yourself out, because you will not always be able to complain to people.

462.

Miss Welch: I understand what you are saying - you do need to be assertive and give yourself a kick in the backside. However, some people get so far down in the issues that they cannot do that. Their friends cannot always pull them out of it.

463.

One thing that I would change, to elaborate on what Fiona said, is attitudes. For example, if a young person gets a criminal record, they are going to be stereotyped for the rest of their lives. How are they supposed to fulfil their goals with that hanging over their heads? The only thing that employers see is a criminal, and they are not going to give him or her a job. If they have no job, they will have no confidence. It will all snowball from there and keep going down and down. Perhaps they are not assertive enough to get themselves out of that situation. What are we supposed to do about the people who are not assertive enough to help themselves - do we just leave them? That is where suicide and teenage depression comes from.

464.

Miss O'Shea: Nobody realises it, but that is where most of the problems come from. Young people are supposed to stand up for themselves - some people cannot do that.

465.

Mr McMenamin: I want to develop that. What I am saying is that meeting in groups and talking is invaluable. If you can share a problem with another person it does not sound as bad when you have told somebody. Having confidence within yourself to talk to people and to tell them your problem is basically what life is all about.

466.

Politicians in Northern Ireland would love to be able to wave a magic wand and say: 'Everything is sorted out.' It is going to take a long time to do that. However, people like you lobbying is what it is all about.

467.

Miss McCaffery: You say that we are the future. If we are the future, is now not the time to change attitudes? I am not saying that you are like everybody else, but we do need a helping hand. If we are going to be the future, why not change things?

468.

Miss Welch: Why not let us have a say in our future?

469.

Mr McMenamin: That is what we are here for today - to listen to you rather than me.

470.

Miss Welch: Is this all going to be written down and put in a filing cabinet somewhere, or will something actually be done about it? I do not know and I am just asking for myself.

471.

Mr Poots: Absolutely not. We have instigated an Inquiry into the role of a Children's Commissioner. The Office of the First and Deputy First Minister decided that they were going to appoint a Children's Commissioner. Our Committee shadows the work of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. We want to get as many views as possible, from as wide and diverse section of the community as possible, on what the role of the Children's Commissioner should be. We are listening to your views, which are being recorded and will form part of the report. We will draw up recommendations from the different hearings and the different points that have arisen. Those recommendations will be put to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, who will be ultimately responsible for bringing forward the Children's Commissioner and setting out his or her remit. You should not underestimate the role that you are playing today. This will all be listened to and we will seek to include those relevant points in the report.

472.

Miss Welch: When a Children's Commissioner is actually appointed, will we get the opportunity to speak to him or her, perhaps be in a more relaxed environment?

473.

Mr Poots: Absolutely. I am sorry about the environment. It is because this is a formal Committee session and has to be recorded that we must have this type of environment. You seem to be managing all right actually - you do not seem to be having that big a problem.

474.

The appointment of a Commissioner will be taken out of political hands. A group will be set up to make the appointment. Once the Assembly decides the role and remit of the Commissioner it will be taken out of political hands. It is then up to the Commissioner to decide what he or she would wish to do. Any Commissioner responsible for children or young people's affairs would be foolish if he or she were not prepared to talk to and listen to children and young people. During an interview, a candidate would be asked if he or she is willing to do that.

475.

Mr Caldwell: I am worried about the idea of a Commissioner. Why can there not be a few Commissioners, or a sub-group answerable to the Commissioner, rather than just one person concentrating on young people's issues? Why not have a sub-group made up of young people, to which the Commissioner is answerable? The Commissioner should be made accountable, and it should be possible to remove and replace him or her for not doing the job properly.

476.

I am also worried about the idea that it is up to individuals to pull themselves out of a bad situation. If that is true, then it must be coincidental that all those who cannot pull themselves out of a bad situation live in Shantallow, and all those who can live on the Culmore Road. I am worried that the Committee may believe that. The opportunities for an individual to pull themselves out of a bad situation may not be available, and that is the problem. For example, that can apply to children in single parent families where there is a poverty of aspiration - they have not much to look forward to in life, because everything that they have lived and breathed has taught them not to expect too much from life.

477.

The Chairperson: The Children's Commissioner will not simply be one person - the Commissioner will head the office and subordinate officers will be appointed. If those officers wish, part of their role could involve setting up sub-committees that would include young people. I hope that those applying will come forward with ideas as to how they are going to reach out and get young people's points of view.

478.

Mr Caldwell: Will the Commissioner be answerable to Government, and will he or she have legislative power? A bureaucratic obstacle would be created if the Commissioner had to answer to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.

479.

The Chairperson: It is likely that the Commissioner will be answerable to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, but will have powers to implement legislation. Only Government can make legislation, whether at Stormont or Westminster. It will be the Commissioner's role to ensure that legislation is implemented, particularly in cases in which young people are being abused or discriminated against. If a matter such as abuse or discrimination were brought before the Commissioner and no action was taken, the Commissioner would be in default of their responsibilities as the job is not being done properly. In those circumstances the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister would have a role in the dismissal of the Commissioner.

480.

Mr McMenamin: I said that every person needs a goal, regardless of where you were born or lived. Shantallow is a nice place - I have worked there. I have worked throughout Derry, and I know all the housing estates. You could not say that there is anything wrong with anyone who lives in Shantallow.

481.

Mr Caldwell: I did not say there was anything wrong with people who live in Shantallow.

482.

Mr McMenamin: It is true that you did not say that, but you are saying that the opportunities for people living in Shantallow are not as good as for people who live in Culmore. Young people perceive things like that - they look at the material aspect of life. People can be rich without material goods. Children and youths such as you are going to change the future. You are the voices of the future, and we are here to listen to your problems and your thoughts on things that you would like to see.

483.

Miss Mullin: No disrespect to you, but you said that is how young people would perceive that. You will not get any further without hearing our perceptions.

484.

Mr McMenamin: I agree -

485.

Miss Mullin: You are saying to us that, as young people, we have taken that up the wrong way and you should not say that. We can make mistakes as much as anyone else can, but you cannot say that we have perceived something incorrectly because you perceive things from the position that you happen to be in.

486.

Regarding the role of the Commissioner, will you base it just on children and young people in care, as they have done in Wales, or will he or she have responsibilities for all young people?

487.

The Chairperson: The chairperson of the Welsh Health and Social Services Committee will be coming over to talk to the Committee about what they have done in Wales, as will the Norwegian Children's Commissioner. At present, we are open-minded about that question. The Committee has not made any decisions and things that I have said today are thoughts about what the outcome may be, rather than what the Committee has decided. We are open to ideas at the moment and we want to collect all of the ideas, decide what is feasible, and put out a report on that.

488.

Miss Mullin: People in care and in need do require more support and attention, but that support should be available to all young people - not just those with disabilities, for example.

489.

The Chairperson: That is why I asked whether you thought the remit of the Commissioner should be narrowly or broadly based.

490.

Mr Beggs: I would like to commend you all on what I have heard you say so far - you obviously have the interests of the community in mind. You are trying to bring forward improvements for young people and you are certainly assertive. However, some adults as well as some young people lack assertiveness, so there is an ongoing need to assist people, whether they are young people or adults.

491.

Miss Welch: You must recognise that children are vulnerable and have special needs. We understand that adults have needs but there is a difference, and a line should be drawn between the needs of adults and children. I understand that adults need help to be assertive too, but children need more help than adults.

492.

Mr Beggs: I am aware of the extra needs that children have, from my experience of dealing with cases in my constituency surgery. I am open to your views on matters such as how to improve the position of young people in vulnerable situations. Do you think that the Commissioner's role should involve giving his or her views to schools on teaching children about their rights, and the responsibilities that come with those rights? You must always balance rights with responsibilities.

493.

Should the Commissioner have input into the school curriculum? Should he or she have the responsibility to advise young people on their human rights, their rights as citizens, their opportunity to become involved in improving their communities and in politics, if they have an interest in any of the parties? Would you agree that, in the past, there has been a shortage of people who wanted to get involved in political groups and that that is a failing? Such groups have not had the ability to influence the political situation or decision making process in Northern Ireland. Should the Commissioner have input into a citizenship course in schools, which would deal with rights and responsibilities?

494.

Most people will agree that a Commissioner will eventually be appointed, and we now have to define the exact role. How would the Commissioner best interact with young people? Who should the Commissioner meet, and how often should he or she meet them? There are 26 District Councils in Northern Ireland - should the Commissioner be meeting with a group such as yours in each one? How will the Commissioner know what young people think, and how will he or she keep an ongoing check on that?

495.

Miss O'Shea: Young people have their own sub-groups and if the Commissioner really does want to become involved he or she will have to be available to talk about education. The Commissioner should be able to support young people and help them with their education. As I said in my presentation, the Commissioner should be suitable - physically and mentally - for a young person to come and speak to him or her. That will help the young person be at ease. The Commissioner does not always have to go to them - young people can come to the Commissioner.

496.

If I were asked whether I wanted to go into politics, I would say "no" straightaway, because there is too much jargon in it - it is too formal. My friend is the junior mayor of Derry and she is studying politics at school. She wanted to get out of politics but she became the junior mayor. She told the mayor exactly what she thought of all this jargon, and the way in which he approached young people in Derry.

497.

Mr Beggs: Do you realise that if you are ever going to change anything, that politics is the means to change things peacefully? It is very easy to sit on the outside and criticise all the time, but getting your sleeves rolled up and getting involved is the only way to change things.

498.

Miss O'Shea: We do not have a chance to get involved.

499.

Miss McAuley: That is why there should be a sub-committee.

500.

Mr Beggs: We welcome the fact that you are being proactive here, and we are all listening to you. Can you comment on how you think the Commissioner should interact with young people? You are one group but there could be dozens of other similar groups - how should the Commissioner interact with all these different groups?

501.

Miss O'Shea: There are dozens of other similar groups but they have not even had the chance to talk to any of you. We were approached by Darren Boyle, a youth rights worker in the Nucleus Centre - he told us and that is the only way that we were involved. It may not go straight to young people, but at least it should involve people who work with young people.

502.

Miss Welch: You need to educate the young people and give them the opportunity. When Darren Boyle approached us, we did not know anything about it. I was reading a report on the Children's Commissioner this morning and I had trouble understanding it. I had trouble understanding the literature even with my training to be a youth rights worker - the wording of everything. You are asking me what the Commissioner should do. You could create sub-groups - there are loads of young people who want to be involved in politics - to have their say. The Commissioner could go and talk to them and, hopefully, something would then be done.

503.

Miss Mullin: In political matters, as you said, you must roll your sleeves up and get involved. The Commissioner is our link. We might not understand your jargon, your wording or your literature - but other youth workers and sub-committees et cetera can link back to the Commissioner and give our point of view, worded in a way that will impress politicians and that politicians will clearly understand it. The Commissioner does not necessarily have to come into our houses, meet each of us and talk about our problems. It is not going to work that way; that would not be politically advisable. There should be a link between young people and the Commissioner so that the Commissioner can represent us at on a political level. Does that make sense to you?

504.

Mr Beggs: The Commissioner has to be able to represent your interests, but bear in mind that there are limited budgets and a limited amount that everyone can do. Ultimately, changes come through changes in legislation. The Commissioner enacts law that is already there. Things can change slowly on occasions, but bringing a Commissioner in will have a dramatic effect in improving the lot of young people, particularly vulnerable young adults.

505.

The Chairperson: I anticipate that if legislation is being brought forward in a Department - whether it be the Department of Education, the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, the Department for Regional Development or whatever - the Children's Commissioner would have the opportunity to see that legislation. There is a lot of talk about different types of proofing, such as rural proofing and equality proofing, at present. Perhaps "children and young people proofing" of legislation would be the role of the Children's Commissioner. The Commissioner would identify areas where young people and children's needs have not been addressed or overlooked in the legislation. The Children's Commissioner would say "Hold on, that should have been included in the legislation" and draw the matter to the attention of those drafting the legislation.

506.

Mr Caldwell: When a Commissioner is appointed, could structures be put in place whereby it is possible for a private citizen to approach the Commissioner, or a subgroup of the Commissioner, on issues that he or she feels need to be addressed? For example, you can join the army and fight for your country at 16 or 17 years of age, but you cannot vote until you are 18. In other words you cannot decide on which government will send you off to fight for your country. Can I approach the Commissioner and ask him or her to address that issue or should I submit a letter as part of a non-governmental organisation?

507.

The Chairperson: We must be realistic about what the Commissioner can do. It will be one person with a staffed office, and he or she will have to deal with a lot of issues. The Commissioner will not be able to deal with all of the issues in a short period of time. The issue that you raised is relevant. You can get married at 16 but you cannot legally have sexual intercourse until you are 17. There are a lot of anomalies in the law and a lot of issues that should be addressed. You could write and draw the Commissioner's attention to those issues, and he or she would be expected to respond to you. It is up to the Commissioner, if he or she wishes, to take the issue forward and recommend to the Minister that legislation needs to be changed. However, it will certainly be open to you as young people to approach the Commissioner on that basis.

508.

Miss Welch: You are saying that the ordinary young person can write to the Commissioner. Could you clarify if that is how the link will be made?

509.

The Chairperson: Absolutely. There is an Equality Commission and a Human Rights Commission. Anyone can contact them and draw to their attention matters that are of concern to them.

510.

Miss McAuley: Does that do any good? Would that letter not go to the bottom of a mailbag, because people will just say "I got a letter from Mickey the other day?" Would it do any good - and I am not being patronising?

511.

The Chairperson: The Human Rights Commission met with the Committee the other day and we asked questions about this. There was one situation where a child with special needs was not receiving the necessary extra attention at school. The Human Rights Commission raised that issue with the education board, and the education board appointed an extra member of staff to help address the child's needs. So, yes, the Commission can do good. There are some things that they will not be able to resolve. No body or group can resolve all the problems, but there are many issues that they will be able to address and help with.

512.

Miss McAuley: What level of resources - budget and manpower - will be available to the Commissioner's office?

513.

The Chairperson: We cannot tell you that at this stage. The Equality Commission has resources amounting to £7 million and I think the Human Rights Commission has something in the region of £750,000.

514.

Miss McAuley: What is the age group?

515.

Mrs Courtney: Criteria have not been set yet.

516.

The Chairperson: We have nothing in mind, and it would be inappropriate to set an age bracket for the Commissioner.

517.

Ms Willis: You spoke about the Human Rights Commission. That is the first time that I have heard of it. How can young people write to the Human Rights Commission when they have not heard of it?

518.

Miss Welch: That is your first problem. How will young people know that they have the right to contact these organisations? Young people do not know.

519.

Mr Beggs: The Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission are in the phone book. You can pick the phone up and ring them. That is why I asked you if you agreed that it is important that that sort of thing is taught at school.

520.

Miss McAuley: That is why there must be a subgroup. If we had a subgroup we could raise awareness.

521.

Mr Beggs: What subgroup are you referring to?

522.

Miss McAuley: I am talking about a subgroup to shadow the Commissioner's office. We could educate and raise awareness - tell young people that the commissions are out there and that they will help.

523.

The Chairperson: It will be down to the Children's Commissioner to ensure that young people are aware of him or her. Would it not be appropriate for the Children's Commissioner to put posters in schools to show that there is a Children's Commissioner? That is up to the Commissioner. We cannot appoint a Commissioner and then tell him or her, right down to the last detail, what he or she must do.

524.

Miss Welch: Even if you suggest it, does that mean that the Commissioner might not do it? It would be pointless having a Commissioner if young people do not know about him.

525.

The Chairperson: The Commissioner, when appointed, would be coming before Committees like ours to explain what they are doing. If we felt that the Commissioner was not addressing the issues well, we would point that out to him, but we are old people in comparison to you. I would expect that the Commissioner would try to reach out to young people. If I can think of an idea like that, I am certain that whoever is appointed - who will have specialised in issues relating to children and young people - will have that idea and many more.

526.

Miss McAuley: Politicians like you have influence. Does the idea of a sub-committee sound appealing to you?

527.

The Chairperson: Do you mean a subgroup of young people?

528.

Miss McAuley: Yes, does that sound appealing and catch your attention?

529.

Mr Caldwell: We mean that we want a subgroup to act as a medium between children and the Commissioner.

530.

Miss McAuley: You are going to have influence.

531.

The Chairperson: I understand what you are saying. I can see the appeal of it, but I can also see difficulties in setting it up and how representative it would be of young people's views. I do not represent the views of all the people of the same age group as myself, by any stretch of the imagination. Not even all the members of this Committee would represent the views of all the people in Northern Ireland. When setting up a subgroup to represent the views of young people, you would have to try and make it broadly representative of what young people actually want.

532.

Mrs Courtney: I come from Derry, and I know that you are all part of the Western Young People's Steering Group. There might be some confusion about our role. Our role as Committee of the Centre is not to be confrontational with you but to get your views on what you think a Commissioner should do and what their role should be. You have quite a lot of good ideas but some people have not given us their views yet. What are the views of the others on what the Commissioner's role should be? Everyone is free to answer. There are people here who come from different areas. Some of the people who have spoken have very assertive ideas, but it would be interesting to hear other people's views.

533.

Miss Rodgers: My personal opinion is that the Commissioner should have a subgroup that would be approachable for a young person. If I were told that there was going to be a Commissioner, I would not sit down and write a letter to them. I would not say "This is my problem, and this is how I want it addressed", because I would imagine that it would not even be looked at. It would be opened and someone would say, "it is another letter, throw it to the back of the pile". There should be someone that young people can relate to and speak to about their problems or what they think should be told to the Commissioner. We need a medium to express our views to the Commissioner.

534.

Realistically, someone that important is not going to have the time to sit down and read letters from every young person in Northern Ireland - it just will not happen. However, if you had a number of bodies throughout Northern Ireland, perhaps located in Belfast, Derry and Tyrone and so on, people could send the letters to their local body. Then they can take it to the Commissioner if it is a big enough issue.

535.

Miss O'Shea: If we write letters to the Commissioner we do not know who they are, whether we can trust them or if it will be confidential. I would not write to someone I did not know and say "here is my problem, go and sort it for me". That is not something I would do, because I would not trust that person.

536.

Mrs Courtney: None of us know if the person will be male or female, because they have not been appointed yet. We are trying to find out what young people think about who would be the best person and even what their qualifications should be? Who would be best able to adapt to young people's views?

537.

Miss McAuley: Are you talking about their skills?

538.

Mrs Courtney: Yes, what you think they should bring to the job. You think that subgroups are very important, and that may be something that the Commissioner says is necessary. What do you think their skills should be? The Commissioner would obviously need to know something about legislation, but he or she does not have to be an expert on everything. What would be the best way for you to pass your views onto the Commissioner? At the moment, you are suggesting that a sub-committee is the best way to do that, and possibly it is.

539.

Mr Caldwell: It would be good if the Commissioner had a lot of direct experience of community work.

540.

Miss McAuley: The Commissioner must have modern training and hands-on experience - not just experience of putting things on pen and paper, but actual experience. He or she must be able to prove that they have the experience, and it will radiate from them.

541.

Ms Willis: Perhaps, the Commissioner should have the experience of working with young people and their problems - they may have had similar problems at a younger age.

542.

Miss Mullin: He or she should be streetwise, and know what is going on and what needs should be addressed. Education will be the link with nearly every young person in Northern Ireland, except those who have been excluded from the education system for whatever reason. The Commissioner can make him or herself known, perhaps through some sort of mediatory body or person acting between the Commissioner and ourselves. He or she must make themselves known to us, not just be another politician who will be on the news every now and again, but somebody who will be known as a youth politician, so to speak.

543.

Mr Caldwell: We do not want an academic bureaucrat.

544.

Mrs Courtney: Somebody said they did not know about legislation, or the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. At this stage, do you think that this information should be taught as part of the school curriculum? People should be aware of their rights and how they can make appeals to the European Court, or ask the Commissioner to go on their behalf. If a young person has to go to court, they should be aware of what rights they actually have.

545.

Miss McAuley: I did not know about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I watch some of the news on television, and I am not simple or stupid, but is something that I did not know about until Darren Boyle told us about it. It was not part of my education. I am 23 years old and I did not know about it. I was so shocked as I should have known about it years ago. Education is definitely the key, and if you can educate people you will make progress.

546.

Mrs Courtney: A lot of things have changed in the last few years. I do not know it all. It is very useful for us to know what role you feel that the Commissioner needs to play.

547.

Miss Welch: The Commissioner must be open- minded, non-judgemental and enthusiastic, and be able to approach young people and be on the same level as them.

548.

Miss O'Shea: You mentioned qualifications. I do not think that a Commissioner needs to have any particular qualifications. I am training to work in the field of youth rights, and all I have got is my GCSE's. Who is to say I am not suitable for the job, because I do not have the qualifications? I could have all the skills, be the listening ear, and be in the community - yet I do not have the necessary qualifications. Qualifications should not really come into it.

549.

Mrs Courtney: Do you mean paper qualifications?

550.

Miss Mullin: Yes.

551.

Mr Caldwell: I knew a little bit about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child before I did the course, but even when I found out more about it I did not think it was very effective - as European legislation for the Rights of the Child in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Commissioner, if there is going to be one, could address the issue of making that kind of legislation from Europe much more effective at home.

552.

Miss Mullin: The only reason that I found out about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child was through the Chalky posters, if anybody has heard of them, that were put up in youth clubs and sometimes in schools. However, if the youth club is not interested in the matter or does not put the poster up even people who are in the Youth Club, or any other organisations might not even know about it. Things like this should be taught through pastoral care in school. Some of the things we are taught in school are basically useless to us, on the street or in real-life.

553.

Mr C Murphy: I would like to make it clear that we will not be appointing the Children's Commissioner. We are taking evidence from yourselves and Derry Children's Commission group today. We have taken evidence from people last week and the week before, and what we plan to do is draft a report, as a cross-party Committee in the Assembly, which we will then submit to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.

554.

Hopefully, we can make some recommendations, as members of an Assembly Committee that has taken evidence from people. We can put forward suggestions, say 'this is what people want', we agree on these suggestions and so on. You are trying to influence us, and we are also trying to influence the people who will decide the role of the Commissioner - the resources, powers, and functions he or she will have, and also the person or persons that are appointed to work with him or her. However, we are not actually appointing the Commissioner.

555.

It strikes me that a lot of the problems you raised are in relation to Nucleus centre. The Children's Commissioner is not going to solve all the difficulties that young people face. They can only use the limited resources available to them. What they can do is make people aware of their rights. If the Commissioner can not interact with young people and children, then he or she is not going to be effective in that role. If we find that, after the Commissioner is appointed, he or she is failing to do what has been outlined in the agreed job description - and they not using their powers correctly - then this Committee will pull them up. We use our influence that way. We will not be hiring and firing the Children's Commissioner.

556.

A lot of the problems that you raised are obviously problems for adults too, but they impact on young people and children in a different way. Therefore, they have to be treated in a different way. That will involve a whole range of resources and will include other Committees of the Assembly such as the Education Committee, the Health and Social Services Committee. There is a need for a holistic approach towards resources and funds. More funds for groups such as yourselves, more training of young people and giving them a decent education rather than older people coming down trying to relate to young people.

557.

We all have different views about the role that the Children's Commissioner will play. We are learning more and more as we speak to people like you and with those who work with children and young people, who help us form our views. At the end of our investigations we will publish a report that will be sent to those people who will make the final decision, to try and influence them.

558.

Mr Caldwell: What age group will the Commissioner define as a child?

559.

Mr C Murphy: The age group we are talking about is zero to 18. One of our suggestions is that the Commissioner deals with all children, not just children in danger or care. There is nothing fixed, by the way, and that is the difficulty. We are essentially listening to witnesses so that we can draft a report. We are not saying to you that this is how it is going to be, this is how a Children's Commissioner will operate. We are listening to your views - they are recorded in Hansard - and they will form part of our report, saying, "by the way, here is what young people think the Children's Commissioner should do". Our recommendations will be based on all the evidence we have heard - nothing is fixed. However, that is the basis that most people are operating on - zero to 18 year olds.

560.

Mr Caldwell: Some 16-year-olds can be more mature than a 20-year-old.

561.

Mr C Murphy: Sure, but you are moving into a different area with people's mental health.

562.

Mr Caldwell: That is why I would be worried about a specific age limit.

563.

Mr C Murphy: That can be part of our report, that people say 18-year-olds should be assessed on their abilities and maturity before they are cut off. It is generally defined that 18 is the start of adulthood. You are saying that there are a lot of grey areas. You can kill someone at 18 but you cannot vote at 16 or 17. This is the sort of thing that we have to put into our report. I hope you understand that we are not here to say that this is how it will be. We are here to give you the opportunity to influence us so that we can influence the people who will be making the final decision.

564.

Mr Caldwell: Could you appoint a Children's Commissioner and a young people's Commissioner? A lot of people aged between 18 and 25 are just as disenfranchised as the under 18s.

565.

Mrs Courtney: Most of the political parties asked for a Children's Commissioner, that is where it all came from. However, your views will certainly be taken into account when the report is being compiled.

566.

The Chairperson: The danger of broadening the remit is that it would kill the effectiveness of the Commissioner in specific areas. If the Commissioner's tasks are too wide, it would create a problem when he or she is trying to focus on particular needs and issues because the resources would be so thinly spread. If the Commissioner has a narrow remit resources can be better applied to get things working faster. However, if the remit is broadened it will probably slow things down - although you may cover more issues over a longer period of time, so there are advantages and disadvantages in both. We are just trying to find the balance.

567.

One of the groups is the Fermanagh Shadow Youth Council.

568.

Miss Welch: They are not present; they could not make it, because of public transport.

569.

The Chairperson: I was wondering if they had debated the issue of a Commissioner, because I know that they have a debating council.

570.

Miss Mullin: I do not think that they have, because the two people involved with the shadow youth council were members of the Children's Services Plan with ourselves, and they had not heard anything about it until Mary Cunningham approached us with the idea.

571.

Mr C Murphy: I agree that this session is being held in a formal set-up in this hall. I would be quite happy for you to come to Stormont and talk to us in the tea room where there are no tables between us. I am sure that the Committee staff will arrange that. That is why we hoped there would be sandwiches; we wanted to have a chat with you before coming in here. It would have been less formal and not as daunting, although most of you do not appear to be too daunted. However, you might not be typical of a lot of young people; many of them would not be comfortable talking to people like us in a setting such as this. I agree that there should be more opportunities for people to speak informally.

572.

I also agree with the idea of a group. It is difficult to represent everybody, but you can only try your best to shadow the Commissioner's work and offer advice on how he or she should interact with young people. It is bound to be of help to the Children's Commissioner when he or she is appointed.

573.

The Chairperson: I know that there are folks here from Fermanagh, and I imagine that the needs in that area are completely different from those in Belfast or here in the north-west. Depending upon where they live in Northern Ireland, is there a significant difference in the issues that young people face?

574.

Miss G Murphy: People would think that, but in our area there are many problems that are similar to those in cities such as Derry. There is much community development, but that could be improved by a Children's Commissioner, who could enforce more education.

575.

The Chairperson: From sitting on district partnerships and other bodies that award funding to different groups I know that inner-city problems are often highlighted to a greater extent than those in rural areas. As someone who comes from a rural background I was always quick to point out that that there is large unemployment in those areas, and although unemployment may not be as bad in a particular rural area, they are 10 miles from the nearest swimming pool or leisure centre. I always ask what are you doing for rural communities. To a degree, many inner-city problems are different from those in rural areas. The same opportunities do not arise for many young people in rural areas.

576.

Miss O'Shea: We discussed that at our last meeting about the Children's Services Plan. We covered what rural communities in Ireland had. We made a flip chart to compare what Derry had with other areas - for example, where Fiona Mullin lives. It was completely different, because we had all the family planning clinics and a whole lot of stuff that many other places did not have. There are Extern groups in Derry but none in Fermanagh - they had never heard of them.

577.

Mr Beggs: One of the points made earlier was that you believed that not everyone could put pen to paper, write their problems down and post them in. Apart from a free-phone hotline, which I am sure you will agree is useful, do you have any other ideas on how to ease communication between young people and the Commissioner?

578.

In case the Chairman does not come back to me I have a second point. You can even speak to me afterwards, but I would like to know more about yourselves. In my area there is no active youth council. It is a worthwhile organisation. Do you think that the Commissioner might play a positive role in promoting them in every area?

579.

Miss O'Shea: Definitely.

580.

Mr Beggs: Do you have any ideas on how to improve communication?

581.

Miss O'Shea: There should be less jargon and - I am repeating myself now - less formality. My heart went mad when I received the letter inviting me to speak to 16 Members of the Assembly. I said, "No way, there is no chance that I will appear before them." There needs to be less jargon, and more of our way of talking. If I was told that I was going to be talking to 16 people interested to know what I feel is important in Derry, or about a young people's Commissioner, I would want it to be more approachable to me. That is what scares me.

582.

Miss Welch: If you do have a hotline - for example if you put information posters in youth clubs - put the posters in a language that young people can understand.

583.

Ms Willis: As you said earlier on, you are talking in your language; and I do not understand it. Do adults know how we talk, and understand it? We don't understand how you people talk, with all the big fancy words.

584.

The Chairperson: We do not all use fancy words.

585.

Mrs Courtney: When it comes to new age technology, you are far better at it than us.

586.

Miss Mullin: Well, that is another way that we can make contact. At present, through the Children's Service Plan, we are in the process of setting up our own website. Another point that we were talking about with Eamon McTernan, Mark McChrystal and Brendan Johnston was an idea that a Donegal council came up with for a diary absolutely packed with information. It was aimed at thirteen year-olds and I had never even heard of most of the stuff in it, Donegal or not, although Fermanagh is relatively close. It was given out to every thirteen year-old in schools in a certain area of Donegal. It had information on sexually transmitted diseases. This was given out to thirteen year-olds, and that is proving the age at which things have to start, and how young people have to get educated on certain issues. It had jokes and it was written in language that a thirteen year-old could understand.

587.

Ms Willis: You did not even understand that you were being taught.

588.

Miss O'Shea: A young person was explaining about being bullied, and at the conclusion, there was a section on how to deal with it. You do not even know until the end, and then you realise that you have just learned something from that.

589.

Miss Rodgers: I am training as a peer educator. Over the last couple of weeks I have been going to secondary schools and delivering workshops. I find that whenever we are out in a workshop, if you go out with the sense that "I am going to teach you this", they are not going to listen. You have to come across as an equal. It is "this is the way it is", not "sit down and listen to me". You are saying that they can choose to listen, but you are going to put it in such a way that they are going to listen. Talk to them informally, but not with big words. Slang words, even - young people relate to slang.

590.

Mr C Murphy: We do not understand the big words either.

591.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. It has been a very useful time, and your views will be taken on board. We would like to have your flip charts for our staff to do a bit of research and work on. I hope you did not feel too daunted - I suspect that you did not. Your views are appreciated. We are going to take the views of the Derry Children's Commission next, so you are quite welcome to stay and listen to the views of the next people. If you wish to stay around and chat to some of us afterwards, or if there is something that you wished to say and did not have the opportunity, you can take that opportunity later on.

592.

Miss Mullin: We want to thank you, as a group, for the opportunity to come here, as loud and obnoxious as we may seem.

593.

Miss McAuley: You are not as frightening as you were when I first came in. Ten minutes in, I wanted to say "Give me a red box, like Tony Blair".

594.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 4 April 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Leslie
Mr McMenamin
Mr C Murphy

Witnesses:

Ms A Elliott )
Ms G Horgan )
Mr E McTernan ) Derry Children's Commission
Mr J Meehan )
Ms C Mulrine )

595.

The Chairperson: You are very welcome.

596.

Mr Meehan: We appreciate the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Derry Children's Commission. The commission was formally constituted in 1999 and was driven initially by a working party which was set up by Derry Healthy Cities, a children and health subgroup. One of the main objectives was the establishment of a children's commission. The commission is inter-agency. It is driven primarily by the aspirations of those parents who were the main motivators of the original children and health subgroup.

597.

The areas of concern that the Derry Children's Commission are looking at are: respect for children; raising the profile of children; and highlighting children's rights and promoting a culture in which children are seen as people with needs. This could be through a forum in which children's views could be heard, taken into account and acted upon. We want to ensure that service providers and policy makers are cognisant of children's needs. Furthermore, our intention is to have a vetting procedure for those policy makers.

598.

In the city health plan, people who signed up were asked to ensure that their own organisational reviews would reflect the aspirations of that plan, especially the children's element that has been pursued by the Derry Children's Commission. We feel strongly that this should be taken into account when all agencies, including statutory agencies, look at their organisational reviews. Greater focus should be given to child friendliness, to try to make the Derry City Council area a more child-friendly environment. Post- troubles, we are concerned that the symptoms of aggression and violence are still all too common in our communities. We hope to see some efforts being made to try to deal with those problems.

599.

Focusing on children's needs could go a long way towards softening up our communities. If people focus on the importance of children and their priorities, some of the more unpalatable aspects of our society may become a distant memory.

600.

The project works on an inter-agency basis. We are working with parents and toddlers, and are trying to give an opportunity for children's views to be heard. We are also working with the Parents As Partners group, and so far our parent advisers have made a number of comments to the commission about their involvement. They have said that the needs of children should always come first: how can children make their views known; how can proper procedures be put in place for engaging children in consultation; what committees and meetings need to be set up to clarify the input of children and give a voice to the children's agenda?

601.

The primary role of a Children's Commissioner should be to promote awareness of children's rights and to highlight ways in which the current law, policy and practice fail to respect those rights. He or she should act as an independent watchdog, child-proof existing and new legislation, and conduct formal inquiries where there have been serious or repeated breaches of children's rights. The Commissioner should analyse and comment on proposed Government legislation and policy to ensure that children have an effective means of redress when their rights are disregarded. Research on children's rights should be commissioned and published. The delivery or denial of children's rights for compliance with domestic and international human rights standards should be monitored. A Children's Commissioner's remit should include all matters pertaining to children, including those that are currently reserved. He or she should act as an advocate and as a promoter of the culture of children's rights and should ensure that parents are actively involved. An annual report should be delivered. Finally, it should ensure that the community and voluntary sector are actively involved in making decisions on issues relating to children.

602.

I recognise that time is limited, and that we should perhaps take your questions at this point.

603.

The Chairperson: From your experience to date, to what extent are carers and those who work with children and young people aware of the UN Convention on Human Rights? To what extent do they implement the convention in dealing with children's issues?

604.

Ms Elliott: Although the UK Government signed up to the UN Convention and ratified it, very little has been done about filtering information down to parents, carers, young people and children. The Save the Children Fund has attempted to introduce the UN Convention issues into primary schools, but it is non-curricular. Perhaps it should be introduced into the curriculum so that young people become aware of it. Joe Public has very little knowledge of the UN Convention and how its Articles impact on his life.

605.

The Chairperson: Do you think that the Commissioner should have a role in bringing the UN Convention to people's attention and encouraging them to make themselves aware?

606.

Ms Elliott: As John Meehan said, the Commissioner should have a role in creating an ethos, a climate where people are aware of the rights of children, are aware of their citizenship. Education is an element of creating that climate.

607.

Mr C Murphy: What are your views on the appointment of a Children's Commissioner and his or her independence? Should a Commissioner be appointed directly by the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, or should an independent panel draw up a job description and make the appointment?

608.

You will be aware that the Assembly's powers do not stray into the area of juvenile justice, which is still a reserved matter for the NIO. Do you think it is important that a Children's Commissioner should be empowered to cross into that area and deal with all children, whatever their situation?

609.

Ms Elliott: It is vital that an independent panel recruits the Commissioner and that young people are part of the selection process. The Commissioner will need to have the experience, knowledge and skills to enable him or her to be as comfortable talking to nursery children as addressing Members of the Assembly.

610.

Ms Horgan: Clearly, the Commissioner's remit will have to extend to all children under 18 years of age. Children cannot be pigeonholed into those who live at home with their parents, those who are in the care system and those who come to the notice of the juvenile justice system. Take the example of a young person who breaks a window in a children's home and is sent to a juvenile justice centre. The Commissioner's powers should not end there.

611.

The fact that juvenile justice is still a reserved matter should not be a factor. After all, we have an ombudsman for policing, even though policing is a reserved matter. We hope that all these matters are devolved in the near future, and it seems that the most obvious way to handle those issues is to ensure that all children under 18 years of age come into the Commissioner's remit.

612.

Mr C Murphy: The difference is that the police ombudsman is appointed through the NIO, whereas a Children's Commissioner will be appointed by an independent panel and agreed by the Assembly. I agree that young people should be involved in the decision. Our earlier session with the young people was a good one; they were not afraid to say what they thought. However, it is not the best way for the Committee of the Centre to inform itself of young people's views. How should the Committee best inform itself on them?

613.

Ms Elliott: There are a variety of models, although no one model will cover everything. It is important to use the new technology. Web sites, for example, could give young people access to different views as well as the opportunity of expressing their own. Leaflets, posters, news-sheets, a confidential telephone line, focus groups - these are all possibilities. The young people who spoke today were unusual in being able to articulate their opinions to you. Not many young people possess such self-confidence; they need other ways of making their voices heard.

614.

Mr McTernan: I work for the Western Health and Social Services Board, where I co-ordinate the planning of children's services in the western area. We try to co-ordinate the activities of the agencies which have responsibility for young people with additional needs. These include young people who have been excluded from school, who are subject to child protection investigations, who are in the care system or who have significant emotional and psychological needs, and also young homeless people.

615.

There are significant areas of overlap with these groupings of young people. It is crucial that the Commissioner's remit includes promoting the interests of young people in the youth justice system because that overlaps with so many other areas.

616.

You spoke to our Western Young People's Steering Group earlier, which was formed in an attempt to collate the experiences of young people. Through that steering group the Derry Children's Commission is trying to access young people who are on the receiving end of other services. We are trying to develop our model in the western area. There are four children's and young people's committees, so there is a structure through which access to young people can and should be mobilised. That could be of use to a Children's Commissioner.

617.

Mrs Courtney: The representatives from the Western Young People's Steering Group are not typical of the normal groups that give evidence to Committees. They admitted to being scared; they could, in fact, have become confrontational because they wanted to get their views across. The Derry Children's Commission has responsibilities for children aged zero to five years. Should a Children's Commissioner have responsibilities for children from minority groups?

618.

Mr McTernan: The role of a Commissioner should be wide ranging. At the centre of Government there should be someone who would act as a champion for children and young people across agencies. The Commissioner should be a watchdog for children's rights; have responsibility for child-proofing legislation and policy; monitor the Assembly's delivery of services; promote a children's rights culture; and intervene as appropriate in legal proceedings. The Commissioner should also undertake investigations where appropriate and actively engage and consult with children as a source of advice and information. The young people made that point. Through research and development the Commissioner should also monitor the impact of policy, especially agency policy. The Commissioner's remit should be wide.

619.

Ms Elliott: Forty per cent of Northern Ireland's population is under 18 years of age. They deserve a Commissioner of their own; in fact, the young people from the steering group demanded it. Therefore, considering the number of children in Northern Ireland, it is obvious that a Children's Commissioner is needed.

620.

Mr Meehan: The talk is of equality legislation and its impact. All other minority groups - and children at 40% is not a small minority - have articulate groups through which they can make their points. Children do not have that. A constant theme of the Assembly is departmental cross-cutting and joined-up Government. The work of a Children's Commissioner should impact on every Government Department, be it the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and its concerns with the safety of children on farms or, more obviously, the delivery of children's health services from the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. If the Assembly is serious about cross-cutting, the post should challenge every Government Department in how it impacts on children.

621.

There is a major local problem and it is not only confined to the Derry City Council area. Many local children come from a dependency culture and they carry a sense of disillusionment to the age of 18. It is difficult to turn that round. It is important that the post of Children's Commissioner is not seen as a token gesture but will be filled by someone who will afford the children a voice, a sense of access and a position. The Derry Children's Commission wants to articulate that through its forum locally and it expects to see that happening at a provincial level.

622.

Mrs Courtney: What difficulties has the Derry Children's Commission encountered in making the views of children and their carers known?

623.

Ms Elliott: I take my lead from the parents who give the Derry Children's Commission a remit to exist. As the carers of children, they say they find it difficult to have their voices heard in certain bureaucratic institutions that make decisions about the lives of their children.

624.

For example, one mother had certain issues with her child's school but she found it difficult to penetrate the system and have those issues heard and acted upon. She felt constantly blocked by the bureaucracy. The system, the parents and the child need to come together to enable communication to take place and solutions to be found.

625.

Mrs Courtney: That is the most basic thing, the first bureaucracy that you encounter as a mother with a child at school. That is something we must listen to.

626.

Ms Horgan: Who is responsible if your child has special educational needs or a disability? Is it the Department of Health or the Department of Education? If a child's rights are being denied, whom do you go to? A Children's Commissioner would be the most suitable person.

627.

Mr McTernan: It is labour-intensive listening to parents, children and young people. It does not evolve easily, and it needs to be worked at and supported. We are learning this lesson very quickly.

628.

Mrs Courtney: If the resources are not there, you will not get the person for the job.

629.

Mr Beggs: I would like to learn something about you and the statutory agencies that are involved in the Derry Children's Commission. What views do you represent? Save the Children is involved, but it would be useful if we had wider information. Do you have to seek approval for what you say, or do you exist independently? Where does your funding come from? That is an important issue. We want as much money as possible to go into children's issues. How can we ensure that we do not create too much bureaucracy, and the money and assistance does not reach the children?

630.

Mr Meehan: I will take the first part of the question on the make-up of our organisation. We established the Derry Children's Commission (the legal term is a partnership or an association), which includes representatives of the main statutory players locally. I represent Derry City Council, which has an important job to play in recreation, leisure, culture and arts. It is very important that that is developed in a way which is sensitive to children's needs. It is part of the council's corporate planning process. The council will seek to challenge the Derry Children's Commission to make sure that those policies evolve and that our services are developed in a way that is child sensitive. The rest of the commission is made up of representatives from a variety of children's organisations in the city.

631.

Ms Mulrine: Save the Children is not the only organisation involved. There is also Newpin, the NSPCC, community playgroups, the North-West Institute, the Western Health and Social Services Council, Foyle Health and Social Services Trust and NIPPA. Our literature clearly states that everyone can become involved. The City Centre Initiative is involved; it looks at what businesses in the city need to do to change the way children are treated as customers. Parents are involved in the wider partnership; they have a particular interest in making a difference to children in the Derry area.

632.

Ms Elliott: The wider partnership gives the strategic lead to the management group which I sit on. It steers the operational issues for the commission, and we report to the broader partnership group four times a year.

633.

Ms Mulrine: The largest section of our funding came from the Peace and Reconciliation Fund through the district partnership, but we also received funding from Save the Children and the Western Health and Social Services Board. We only have enough money for this, our pilot, year.

634.

We work with parents and children to raise issues they feel are important. Resources are important for our organisation.

635.

Mr Beggs: From your experience, what budget would you suggest for a Children's Commissioner?

636.

Ms Elliott: That is a difficult question. As a starting point, I would use what other countries offer.

637.

Mr Beggs: We must also bear in mind the size of our population.

638.

Ms Elliott: In the Republic the ombudsman receives £1·3 million annually, with an additional £3 million. Identifying best practice would be part of the analysis of the size of budget needed, given the population and the remit decided for the Commissioner. There is a range of ombudsmen and Commissioners in the broader European setting which could be used as a benchmark.

639.

Ms Horgan: There is a danger that a Children's Commissioner could be given too few resources and that would be a real waste of money. If that was the case, the Commissioner may as well not exist. The Human Rights Commission, for example, has commented time and again on the size of its budget and its lack of resources. If we are taking a Children's Commissioner seriously, we must give him or her adequate resources, which could save money in the long run.

640.

You mentioned money being wasted through bureaucracy. As someone who works in children's rights, I think that a lot of money is wasted on passing the buck between different statutory organisations, or even answering queries that have nothing to do with them. If a Children's Commissioner were clearly dealing with children's rights, that would mean less bureaucracy in other organisations. Different commissions develop articles of agreement, memorandums of agreement, protocols and so forth to avoid replication or duplication of work. If you want to avoid too much bureaucracy and wastage of money, the Commissioner must be resourced properly.

641.

Mr McMenamin: You are very welcome and I thank you for your presentation. Is the Derry Children's Commission based on any other organisation? If a Children's Commissioner were to be established, would it be more difficult for you to get funding? Finally, since you began operations in September 2000, have you had common recurring problems?

642.

Mr Meehan: I have been involved since the formation of the management committee, and I do not know of any other body of this type on the island of Ireland. We have established our constitution and terms of reference, driven by the original working group on children and health.

643.

The recognition that the Assembly gives to the need for a provincial voice looking after children's rights should reinforce the importance to potential funders, both regionally and locally. There should be clear recognition of the value of our work at central Government level if you are prepared to make the effort to put a Children's Commissioner into place. Obviously it will be a challenge for you, and you will have to consider if this is something that should be replicated throughout the other district councils. Clearly, you are unlikely to have 26 such bodies. The question is: should they be more regionally based and, if so, how should that happen? This may happen after a review of the 26-council format. This is all on the long finger, but we would hope that a central body would enhance our credibility and status.

644.

Ms Elliott: As for recurring issues, parents bring problems to us, which are important to them as carers of children. I am thinking of issues such as housing estates that do not have a clean, decent, stimulating play area for children, kerb stones so high that it is dangerous to lower a pram off them, or manhole covers so high that if somebody is being wheeled in a wheelchair, they are liable to be tipped over. These are practical problems.

645.

Parents say to us, "People are not listening to us, they do not hear us." This can be tackled in an adversarial way - grab someone by the neck and say "Come on, do better." Organisations do not know how to listen to parents and children. The role of our commission is an enabling one, enabling agencies to plan and create policies that are child-friendly, parent-friendly and carer-friendly.

646.

Mr Leslie: You have set your target at ages zero to five, whereas our range is wider, zero to 18. Do you think this is realistic? Your original presentation looked at what a Children's Commissioner might do and was based on statutes, statutory rights and so forth. Perhaps this is all a Commissioner can do. It is easy to imagine that happening.

647.

In the discussion I have not heard any observations about the problems of children possibly being the problems of parenting. Have you any experience of this and do you see a role for a Children's Commissioner in trying to address the problem from that angle? We tend to say that this is a problem for the child. Do you think that a Children's Commissioner should do something of a proactive and co-ordinated nature to address the shortcomings of parents? That is potentially a huge big subject.

648.

Ms Horgan: It is a huge subject. You have to start from the point of view that most parents do their best. Sometimes their best can be made more difficult by the circumstances they live in, if they live in poverty, for example, or in overcrowded housing or if there is stress in their lives. If my parenting is challenged by stress, I am fortunate to be in the position of being able to buy child care, to get a babysitter to give me a couple of hours off. If you do not have that option, it is very difficult.

649.

Focusing on parents as the problem may in fact undermine the child's right to a happy family and home life. Most people who work with children, and who want to see children's rights upheld, would start by seeing if there were difficulties with parenting. Then it is family support that is needed. The parents need to be helped in order to ensure that the child's rights are met, rather than coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

650.

Many parenting courses are being conducted in the city and across Northern Ireland. What has emerged from those courses is that parents do not feel that their existing skills are recognised.

651.

I do not know if you are a parent yourself, but we must all start by acknowledging that 95% of parents do their best. It is then a question of supporting them. Children's rights have been denied because of factors external to their families, which are not being addressed. Poverty is the main factor. There is a clear link between child abuse and poverty. It is the biggest single indicator as to whether or not a child will be abused. A Children's Commissioner could do very little about that, other than flagging up the problem.

652.

Mr Leslie: You commented on the age range issue. How wide should the remit be?

653.

Ms Mulrine: The Derry Children's Commission currently addresses the needs of children aged zero to five, but if we were to receive more funding, we would broaden that remit to age 18.

654.

The Chairperson: If any of you were in the position of being the Children's Commissioner, what would your primary targets be in your first couple of years in office? What would you see as the main challenges to be addressed in the initial round? Obviously there is a raft of issues to be dealt with, but you cannot deal with them all in a short period of time.

655.

Mr McTernan: Two areas should be addressed. The first priority would be the function of child-proofing policy and legislation and also the development of a child-impact assessment tool, which take some time and application. A means of screening policy and legislation for its impact on children and young people should be developed. My second priority would be to ensure that the policies of different Government agencies are coherent and consistent in relation to their delivery of children's services.

656.

Ms Horgan: If I were the Children's Commissioner, I would examine past investigations that have been blocked by other agencies. For example, in Northern Ireland in the 1990s five or six children under 18 years of age died in the care of the juvenile justice system of the state. These children had been taken from their parents, supposedly to protect them. Two or three of those children were from the Foyle constituency and their parents did not feel that the investigations carried out into the deaths of their children were complete and the investigations had been blocked.

657.

I hope that the Committee recommends that a Children's Commissioner should have powers of investigation, discovery and subpoena to ensure that blockages could not occur in the future and that there would be openness such as is experienced in Britain when there are investigations into such situations. The right to life of a child, and full investigation if a child were to die, is a basic principle. The powers of investigation of a Children's Commissioner are very important. I am a researcher and you can probably tell what I am thinking about. If the Children's Commissioner cannot be sure that he or she is receiving all the necessary information, how can he or she be sure that the position is effective?

658.

The Chairperson: I am not sure what legislative powers we would have, given that some of those matters are outside our current remit. Secondly, there can sometimes be problems pre-1998.

659.

Ms Horgan: I was thinking about children in the future.

660.

The Chairperson: It is very interesting.

661.

Ms Mulrine: Teachers and others have been telling us about education. One of your members raised the issue of educating parents about children's rights. Some people feel that politicians need to be educated, as do those involved in planning decisions. As Mr McTernan said, everyone needs to be educated about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and what that means for their individual remits. That should be across the board, with no holds barred.

662.

Mr Meehan: I would like to supplement what Mr McTernan said about a consistency in policy as regards child sensitivity. A large amount of funding comes from central Government to health action zones and healthy living centres. It is important that the agendas for those are not driven by bottom-up thinking, which in some cases will not take the needs of children into account. There must be an element of child focus in such initiatives and the Government should see that this is demonstrated.

663.

The Chairperson: Ms Elliott, if you were the Commissioner, what would you like to see?

664.

Ms Elliott: Education is important, from the public through to planners and decision makers, to create an environment of attitude and respect for children and young people and to create the idea of citizenship and ownership of that citizenship among our young people. It is glib to say that they are our future but I would like them to see themselves as stakeholders in Northern Ireland and as part of the democratic process.

665.

The Chairperson: As a politician, one of the more regular complaints I receive at my constituency office is of antisocial behaviour, which is mostly being engaged in by young people between the ages of 13 and 18. The current means of addressing it is to ring the police and ask them to move the young people on. Ultimately, the problem moves elsewhere. It is something that we as a people must address. When these young people are perhaps only 150 metres away from some of the best facilities available, why do they become involved in antisocial behaviour? How can we reach out to them and encourage them not to harass other people?

666.

Ms Elliott: You mentioned best facilities - but from whose perspective? Who built those facilities? Were the young people in the area consulted about what they wanted? How many white elephants do we have in Northern Ireland that are "best facilities" and that are not used by young people? How many young people can go to the sports complex at Templemore and pay for a swim that costs almost £3? There is a range of issues. It is not so narrowly focused.

667.

There is also the sense of giving a dog a bad name, that young people are guilty by association. Young people are being criminalised. An article about Translink and the vandalising of buses said that up to 40% of that was adult-led, which means that those vandals were over 18, not 10 year olds with penknives. However, the perception is that young people are doing this to our society.

668.

The Chairperson: I am raising an issue that is brought to politicians on a regular basis. Young people in general are associated with antisocial behaviour. Something is wrong, and we need to identify the cause. There must be some way of addressing it or of finding out exactly what these young people want.

669.

Ms Horgan: You listened to what the young people said earlier. The Nucleus, even though it is quite small and poorly funded, is very popular with young people, one reason being that young people were asked about what they wanted.

670.

Perhaps the answer to your question is to ask young people what they want. Perhaps part of what they want is to hang around street corners. We used to hang around street corners when we were growing up and we were not seen as a threat. There has been a new definition of antisocial behaviour, and hanging round street corners is part of that definition, which is worrying.

671.

Therefore, it is a question of asking young people what they want and then negotiating with them about getting a good mix of what they want and what adults are willing to put up with. It is about compromise.

672.

Mr McMenamin: Many problems go back to the home and to the parents. People are out working nowadays, and many parents do not even want children in the house in case they disturb it. The house is too fancy, so they ask the children to stay out.

673.

These young people must have problems; they may come from single-parent families. However, there seems to be little communication between parents, which may be one cause of the problems. It might also be peer pressure from other children.

674.

A close family unit is needed, and that can be difficult to acquire. If you tell children one thing, you can rest assured they will do the opposite. However, adults need to sit back and look at where their children are going. Many do not. They do not even want to know about their children.

675.

The Chairperson: The perception is that young people from working-class backgrounds are responsible for this antisocial behaviour. My experience is that 18 or 19 year olds from wealthier backgrounds, who have greater access to money, go into off-licences, buy drink and then hang around the back of people's houses, throwing bottles into their gardens. This has been a problem. Issues need to be addressed and they are not all poverty related.

676.

I appreciate your coming here today and answering our questions. I hope that we will be able to make use of your information in the report. You are very welcome to send further information at any time during the consultation process.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 25 April 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Dr Birnie
Ms Gildernew
Ms Lewsley
Mr McMenamin
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms A Dunn ) Northern Ireland Branch
Ms H Eagleson ) of the British Association
Ms L Millen ) of Social Workers (BASW(NI))

677.

The Deputy Chairperson: On behalf of the Chairman and the Committee I welcome you here this afternoon. We are working to a tight schedule, so I ask you to make a short presentation, which will be followed by questions.

678.

Ms Eagleson: Thank you. I will ask my colleagues to introduce themselves.

679.

Ms Dunn: My name is Alyson Dunn. I am the chairperson of the British Association of Social Workers Northern Ireland Committee and Director of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW), which is a UK-wide company. The BASW is the largest professional association for social workers in the UK. We are affiliated to the International Federation of Social Workers, and we also have close links with the Irish Association of Social Workers.

680.

Ms Millen: My name is Liz Millen. I am a member of the executive committee of BASW (NI), and I am also a member of the Voices In Practice Group for Family and Child Care in Northern Ireland. I have been a qualified social worker for almost 21 years, and I have been working with families and children for most of that time.

681.

Ms Eagleson: I am Helen Eagleson. I chair the BASW(NI) Voices In Practice Group for Family and Child Care, and, like Liz Millen, I have been a social worker for quite a long time. Half of my career has involved working in children's homes, and the other half has involved working with families and children in the community. For the last four years I have been delivering training on the Children Order (Northern Ireland) 1995 on a multidisciplinary basis.

682.

I will give a 10-minute presentation, and I have a short handout that summarises the key points.

683.

The Deputy Chairperson: OK. Thank you.

684.

Ms Eagleson: The following statement was made in 1996:

"For young people's status to significantly improve, change is necessary in all areas - in the private sphere of the family as well as in public institutions, for example, nursery schools, schools, courts and hospitals."

685.

The BASW (NI) Voices In Practice Group for Family and Child Care fully endorses this statement and welcomes the Government's acknowledgement of the need for change, as evidenced by their decision to appoint a Commissioner for Children.

686.

In light of that decision, our members were asked three particular questions. First, what hopes and aspirations do you have of a Commissioner for Children? Secondly, what power, duties and responsibilities should the Commissioner have? Thirdly, what concerns would you have in establishing a Commissioner for Children?

687.

Two main themes emerged from the subsequent responses and our discussions. I intend to address those main themes today. Appendix 1 of the paper that I recently sent to the Committee contains the full list of written comments that we received. The first theme relates to the issue of rights and children's rights in particular. The second theme relates to the management of change.

688.

Many individuals and institutions have the power to help or hinder young people to express and claim their rights. For example, parents are still entitled by law to hit their children. Education legislation maintains that the consumers of education are parents and not young people.

689.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is the first international treaty that recognises children's rights as being separate from, and additional to, the human rights of adults. The implementation of the Human Rights Act 1998 has resulted in greater awareness of rights generally. In relation to children in particular, it has led to increasing emphasis on the UN Convention.

690.

Have we gone too far with children's rights? That is certainly a question that has been asked a lot recently. While some adults may feel that children's rights have gone too far, there is little evidence to suggest that that is so.

691.

Twenty years ago in Sweden, the smacking of children became illegal. The experience during that time demonstrates that there has been no increase in prosecution for parental assaults on children since the ban on smacking and no increase in compulsory social work intervention in families or removal into care. In fact, Sweden shows the strongest decline in prosecutions for parental assaults of children among parents in their twenties who were themselves brought up during that era without smacking.

692.

There was also a marked decline in out-of-family placements of children, and compulsory forms of intervention. Overall, that is a positive picture, with greater use being made by parents of consistent, positive and effective forms of discipline as a consequence of the ban. The Swedish experience also illustrates how a change in law can result in changes in attitudes and behaviour.

693.

Change and diversity are certainly both major characteristics of life in the twenty-first century that have impacted significantly on children. Children seek more independence and increasingly want to negotiate family decisions that affect them. They are, without doubt, active participants in a world that will continue to experience increasing change. That is well illustrated by the amount of time and energy that advertising campaigns focus on children and young people today.

694.

The draft Northern Ireland Executive Programme for Government states:

"We will combat social exclusion and poverty, with a particular emphasis on children."

695.

To achieve that aim it is vital that children's views be heard, that their contribution to society be valued and that their role as citizens and constituents be recognised. That will require new thinking and closer working relationships within and among relevant bodies.

696.

The key players are children, Government Departments, statutory and voluntary agencies and research communities. They must have the opportunities to engage in a process that promotes debate about important issues including education, employment, criminal justice, parental responsibility, children in need, children in public care, the environment, transport, housing and health. All those areas affect children.

697.

A strategy should be devised to lead the way in encouraging families and communities to value children - a children's strategy. The role of the Children's Commissioner should be to check that that all takes place, with the emphasis being on the need to ensure that children are consulted in a meaningful way and that they enjoy their childhood. They should have experiences that enable them to reach their potential and to prepare for adulthood.

698.

I will move on to managing the change. Most Government Departments impact on children. Children's services include the universal and the targeted, the supportive and the custodial.

699.

In 1998 the interdepartmental group representing the then Department of Health and Social Services, the then Department of Education for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Office provided guidance to health and social services boards on the development of multi-agency children's services plans. Since then, planning frameworks have been established which have identified various priorities according to statutory requirements and assessed need in each health and social services board area.

700.

However, it is clear that agencies will struggle to achieve children's services planning objectives without an overall coherent policy direction that is realistically supported by the relevant Government Departments. Account needs to be taken of the regional, national and international perspective. A Commissioner would be most helpful at that broader strategic level. He or she could identify, for example, not simply the main current issues for children and young people but also future trends. The ways in which the various agencies are collaborating with each other to achieve the overall aim of improving life for children could be addressed in a yearly report provided by the Commissioner.

701.

The value of any Commissioner lies in his or her ability to see the big picture and to draw attention to both the positive and negative aspects of practice. A previous paper provided for the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee by the group illustrates the system of family and child care as a child's mobile with interconnecting parts. Those parts may appear quite different but usually have a common theme. Movement or change in any one part of that mobile will impact and influence the position of the others. The Commissioner for Children needs to understand how these complex systems work and what the implications of change might be.

702.

As well as the Government Departments, boards, trusts, and voluntary and community agencies, there are internal systems in each of these. For example, the representation and complaints procedure for each trust was set up as a result of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. Details are given in annex 2 of our written submission. How the Commissioner relates to these systems needs careful exploration so that his or her role enhances rather than competes.

703.

With regard to inclusiveness and participation, it is well recognised that change will only effectively take place if those affected by change feel that they are meaningfully involved in the process. As the proverb states:

"Tell me and I'll forget it, 'Show me and I may remember,' Involve me and I'll understand."

704.

The role of social workers is founded on the principles of inclusion and participation. The principles of social work practice include knowledge, skills and experience used positively for the benefit of all sections of the community and individuals. They also include the empowerment of clients and their participation in decisions and defining services, and collaboration with others in the interest of clients.

705.

Social workers and social work have built up a great deal of experience and knowledge in the area of service user involvement. A Commissioner for Children must draw on existing knowledge and expertise in a broad way, to not only ensure that children are involved in decision making processes but that their involvement is as meaningful as possible.

706.

In 1971 Sherry Arnstein wrote an influential article about citizen participation in public planning schemes. Her ladder of participation remains a popular and useful tool. There are eight rungs in Arnstein's ladder ranging from manipulation to citizen control.

707.

In 1992 Roger Hart produced an adaptation of Arnstein's ladder. His ladder specifically relates to young people's participation, and I have included it at annex 3 of our written submission. In relation to the Commissioner for Children, the ladder of participation may be used in a variety of ways. The Commissioner may use it to evaluate the level of young people's participation achieved by the commission itself. Departments, agencies and even individual workers may also use it to evaluate their overall work or particular projects in which young people are involved.

708.

The overall aim of a Commissioner for Children should be to listen to, think about, and act more effectively for, children. He or she should be guided by the principles of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child - that all children are entitled to basic rights without discrimination; that the best interests of the child should be the primary concern in decision making; that children have the right to life, survival and development; and that the views of children must be taken into account in matters affecting them.

709.

In conclusion, if a Commissioner for Children were to be effective, the following key points would need to be taken into account. He or she must have power, and access to appropriate and sufficient resources. To quote one of our members, he or she must have teeth. The Commissioner must also be politically astute, have a broad political awareness and a knowledge of structure and communications systems.

710.

The role must be based on principles. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is the obvious set of principles on which the Commissioner's role should be based. He or she should have clarity of purpose as well as a remit that has clear parameters, so that the Commissioner is not seen to interfere unnecessarily in situations or with agencies, but to intervene appropriately on behalf of children and young people. The role should not be seen as being to reprimand people or agencies, but to provide a strong voice for, and to represent, children and young people. The Commissioner should not be adversarial but should act as an advocate on children's and young people's behalf.

711.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms Eagleson. I will ask the first question. On page 2 of your submission, point 3, about the impact of change, states:

"The key players, that is, children, Government Departments, statutory and voluntary agencies and research communities must have the opportunities to engage in a process ."

712.

and you list the issues. Later on you talk of inclusiveness. Where does the word "parents" fit in to your thinking?

713.

Ms Eagleson: Parents are part of society. They provide the family environment, and they are first and foremost the people who take care of children. They are included within that paragraph.

714.

The Deputy Chairperson: Are they not much more than a part of society? They are the people directly responsible for the children.

715.

Ms Eagleson: Yes, and that is why I say that I have included parental responsibility in the debate about important issues. It is a vital aspect of children's lives.

716.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much. Could you define children, please? Where do young people start? Where does "toddler" end, bearing in mind that the Bulger case taught us a number of things. It has made us all adjust our thinking in relation to the word "child".

717.

Ms Eagleson: According to the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 a child is anyone under the age of 18. There is an anomaly that we are all aware of in relation to the juvenile justice legislation, which recognises that a child is anyone under the age of 17. However, the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 is regarded as the main piece of legislation that impacts on children and families. A child, therefore, from a social work perspective, is anyone under the age of 18.

718.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will put the question another way. Recent thinking is beginning to redefine the word "child" as distinct from "children". There is an assumption that there is a greater responsibility that comes upon the individual. Some think that it is at 8 years of age, while some think that it is at ten. Then there is the term "young person". There is a glib use of words here. Does the Commissioner have sole responsibility for the age band that is defined from toddler to the age of 17? These things can be legally challenged now and again.

719.

Ms Eagleson: Social work is guided not just by the legislation, but also by case law. Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss has made comments in relation to children and childhood, and the Gillick principle is also something that we are guided by. As children become older, they become more able to make decisions on their own behalf. I think that a Commissioner -

720.

The Deputy Chairperson: The right to marriage is at the age of sixteen.

721.

Ms Eagleson: I think that a Commissioner has to take account of that. However, I still believe that, overall, a Commissioner should be responsible for all children under the age of 18.

722.

Ms Lewsley: You mentioned the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I am particularly interested in article 3 with regard to children with special needs and juvenile justice. I hope that we will have a Commissioner for Children here, and that he or she will use that as a guideline. What priorities do you see for Northern Ireland? As someone who was involved in the UN Convention a number of years ago, I felt that the Government were paying lip-service to it, rather than implementing it.

723.

What priorities would you like to see the Commissioner having, with particular reference to children with special needs, the juvenile justice system and children in care? Legislation might be put in place very speedily to enhance the Commissioner's role. What kind of a working relationship do you see yourselves having with a Commissioner? Does there also need to be a separate children's strategy?

724.

Ms Eagleson: There were at least three questions there.

725.

The BASW will be recommending a strategy for children. We take a systems approach. You cannot have an impact on residential childcare services without impacting on all of children's services. A children's services strategy is required. A Commissioner would have a role to play in relation to that. How that would work needs to be discussed further.

726.

Ms Lewsley: They are two separate things.

727.

Ms Eagleson: The Commissioner would be a part of the children's strategy. He or she might be responsible for parts of the strategy, but there has to be an overall, governmental children's strategy.

728.

In relation to priorities, a lot of research still has to be done. I have talked about children's services planning, which is in its infancy. This is only its second year. The 1995 Order has put in place a lot of structures. People are just at the learning stage. We need much research before we can talk authoritatively about what the needs are in Northern Ireland, never mind particular rural or urban regions.

729.

Obviously, there is a need for research and information gathering. The BASW could be involved in that alongside the statutory agencies, the boards, the trusts, the non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and the universities.

730.

Ms Lewsley: There needs to be better continuity across the board as well.

731.

Ms Eagleson: That is why there has to be a children's strategy.

732.

Mrs E Bell: Those of us who, as Patricia Lewsley said, have been working on this issue for some time on a political level certainly agree with the concerns expressed in your submissions about the hopes and powers, et cetera. We do not want a Commissioner for Children to be a cosmetic appointment. The Commissioner must have power, and must be effective, to address the problems that arise.

733.

I want to follow on from what Patricia Lewsley said. My concern, in this as in other things, is that part of the problem - and the reason why children's rights and children's situations have been badly dealt with - is the lack of co-ordination among the relevant organisations and services. We are hoping - and I wonder whether you share this hope - that the Children's Commissioner will in some way co-ordinate better services for children. Do you think that that could be part of the role of a Commissioner? The Commissioner would focus on both policy development and service provision.

734.

Would it be better for that to be dealt with in OFMDFM, given that it impacts on the other 10 Departments? How do you see that being implemented?

735.

Ms Eagleson: Those are the types of issues that need to be debated when a children's strategy is being devised.

736.

Mrs E Bell: We are looking at it based on the recent children's strategy in the South, which we think is a good guideline.

737.

Ms Eagleson: It is a very good model. Much work has been done by the Southern Government in looking internationally, and very broadly, at good practice in children's strategies. My advice would be not to reinvent the wheel, but to draw on existing strategies and good points. People in the South are now talking about an Ombudsman or a Commissioner for Children. You can have a children's strategy that looks at co-ordinating, and you need to decide where that remit should sit. Whether the Commissioner for Children should be doing that is a difficult question to answer without the debate on a children's strategy taking place.

738.

Mrs E Bell: You think therefore that the priority, as stated in your document, should be for the voices of children to be heard and listened to.

739.

Ms Eagleson: Yes, very much so.

740.

Ms Millen: I think that the Commissioner would be useful in raising the profile of children in areas beyond the obvious ones of the social services, health and education. Issues such as the environment and road planning impact on children, but their views and needs are seldom taken into account. As well as co-ordination, the Commissioner could have an advocacy role and raise the profile of children.

741.

Mrs E Bell: He or she could encourage the awareness of children's rights.

742.

Ms Millen: Yes, the awareness of rights and needs in respect of children.

743.

Ms Eagleson: One of our members has commented on children featuring in the media and the way in which the media portray children, and has looked at the sorts of stories that are written about children. Certainly the Commissioner would have a role there as well.

744.

Mr McMenamin: You have partly answered my first question which is about what remit the Commissioner should have and what areas he or she should have power over. Can you tell me how the introduction of a Commissioner for Children would affect yourselves?

745.

Ms Eagleson: A member asked earlier about the role of the Commissioner in relation to ourselves. It would be very much one of collaboration - working together in promoting the welfare of children. It would actually be of great benefit to a family and childcare group in Northern Ireland to have a Commissioner for Children to bring issues to, and to seek advice and guidance from. It would be a two-way process, with a lot of learning in both directions.

746.

Mr McMenamin: What areas of power should the Commissioner for Children have?

747.

Ms Eagleson: The powers should cover all children under the age of 18 in all areas, including juvenile justice, housing, and the environment. The Commissioner has to have that broad a remit so that he or she can advocate and promote children in all areas of their life. Children are affected by what happens in each Government Department.

748.

Mr McMenamin: The Commissioner is going to have some job and some remit!

749.

Mrs E Bell: That is why I say "Department".

750.

Mr K Robinson: As Mr McMenamin says, the Commissioner is going to have some remit. I want to tease this out a little bit more because I am concerned that we have almost arrived at a Santa Claus situation, with the wish-list going up the chimney. Do we need to focus a little bit more? I refer you back to the Swedish experience.

751.

It is my understanding that in Sweden the whole family is taken into the care of the state, should the whole family be dysfunctional. Each family member is then reassessed, redirected and eventually re-assimilated into society - it is not just the child in isolation of the family group. Society benefits from that.

752.

You talked about strategies. When I hear the word "strategy" I go white, because I have seen and heard about endless strategies. We have to bring it down to practical ways in which the Commissioner can enhance the quality of life for children. As a layman, children's welfare means to me that children's health is safeguarded, their physical well-being is safeguarded and they are safe from abuse and exploitation. The media exploit children in a variety of ways, such as by the portrayal of children in advertisements.

753.

I want to bring the issue down to a new housing development. Will the Commissioner have the power to go to a planning authority about children's needs? A new housing development may be going to be inhabited by "double income, no kids" couples - or dinkies, as they are called in America. However, eventually the dinkies will produce children who will have needs. Could the Commissioner therefore say to the planning authorities that the estate will mature and the children there will have needs? They will need to be safe on the roads, and they will need to have a safe play area. They will need to have some sort of social intercourse with their peer group and with others. That is a very practical way to move forward the well-being of children. I am concerned that the strategy goes up into the ether and that our children's quality of life is being neglected.

754.

I came out of a housing estate this morning and the quality of life there is no better than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. There are armies of social workers, schoolteachers and politicians slaving away. Society is holding its hands up and saying that it has a strategy to improve this. However, the honest answer is that we are not really making the improvements that will affect the child's quality of life. I would like to hear your views on that.

755.

Ms Eagleson: I take your point that a Commissioner cannot be seen as a panacea. It is not one person's responsibility to care for children in our society. It is everybody's responsibility. There must be changes in all areas. That is how I couched the beginning of my paper. I take your point that the Commissioner should be able to advise, guide and assist in a very practical way. He cannot be drawn into areas outside his remit. For example, a planning authority will be an expert on housing. However, the Children's Commissioner will have knowledge of children's needs and knowledge of the current situation from a regional perspective. The Commissioner will also have knowledge of the future trends, and the international perspective, so that he can advise the authorities. Therefore housing authorities, the police and the trusts should seek advice, information and assistance from the Commissioner when they are at the forward planning stage.

756.

Mr K Robinson: I will take the argument back a century to when Belfast was growing as an industrial city. Houses, streets and factories were built, but society then realised that the children were at risk on the streets, so parks were constructed. That was the response after the event. With the advent of a Commissioner we have the opportunity to plan now for the future and to say that children need fresh air, space to run in and a safe environment. In a very practical way the Commissioner should demand that society - be it the planning authorities, the education authorities or the health authorities - responds practically to those needs which can be envisaged for the next 5, 10 or 15 years, or whatever the time span.

757.

Ms Eagleson: That picks up on the point that I made. All Government Departments will have a forward planning policy and everything that they do will need to be child proofed - the legislation that will be passed, the housing estates and schools that will be built and the services that will be provided.

758.

The Children's Commissioner needs to be the touchstone of policy.

759.

Ms Millen: The point relates to raising the profile of children. Approximately one third of Northern Ireland's population is under the age of 18, so you are not talking about small numbers. We need to take into account the fact that children have different needs to adults, and that the dinkies will eventually mature and have children. Child-friendly areas should be built in all places. Perhaps traffic-calming methods could be included, and it is easier to put those in at the planning stage. The Commissioner could have a role in reminding people that there are kids in most areas. On my way here I was listening to a broadcast about a telephone mast in England that was built near a school. Nobody took into account the fact that the mast was near a school, and that it would have a direct impact on children's health. Again, a Commissioner for Children could cast an eye over proposed plans and say "Where are the children in these plans?" The Commissioner could raise the profile of children in that way.

760.

Ms Eagleson: At a practical level, if children had been consulted in the first instance on the matter of light switches in public buildings, wheelchair users would not have to ask for the switches to be lowered.

761.

Mr K Robinson: There was a classic case in Belfast years ago when a new school was built and the coat pegs were put too high for the infant class.

762.

Mr Beggs: Will you clarify exactly whom, and how many, you represent? Did you consult your members in bringing together the presentation for the Committee? Is your presentation representative of society as a whole?

763.

There is a lack of planning for children's needs - such as new play areas - in the current system in Northern Ireland. Do you think that Northern Ireland is behind other parts of the United Kingdom in this field? Is that possibly because we did not have devolution, and because there was a lack of pressure from parents on the political process? Will such feelings be addressed with or without a Commissioner?

764.

There is consensus that there is a need to appoint a Children's Commissioner to look after the specific interests of children. Given that I believe that that consensus is there, I am curious as to why your presentation introduces some areas that are potentially controversial. I refer to where you talk about the right of parents to potentially include smacking as a means of discipline.

765.

Undoubtedly there are family negotiations, but it is strange to see those formalised. Do you start negotiating with a two or three-year-old child? I find a lot of discipline comes down to good common sense. As a parent and a voluntary youth worker, I find that in trying to bring up children and young people to be responsible citizens, you have to use a variety of diplomatic skills. Why have you introduced some potentially contentious areas into what was largely a non-contentious subject?

766.

Ms Dunn: The BASW(NI) is the professional association for qualified social workers. Our members are qualified staff, and they mostly come from the statutory sector. That is where most social workers are employed. They are mostly involved with family and childcare work.

767.

As a UK-wide association, we have affiliations with the international federation, and we have links with the Irish association, although we are not affiliated to it.

768.

Those are the people whom we represent. We are the professional voice of our social work members.

769.

Mr Beggs: Was your presentation agreed by your members?

770.

Ms Dunn: Helen Eagleson will talk about the presentation. We consulted all our members.

771.

Ms Eagleson: I chair the Voices In Practice Group for Family and Child Care. There is also a special interest group on training and others covering the elderly, mental health, physical health and disability. Our views reflect the BASW perspective. Social workers have a very broad remit in relation to vulnerable people in society, whether they be children, the elderly or whoever. All our members were asked the three questions that I read out. The specific answers that we received are set out in annex 1. I collated the responses. The answers were discussed at a committee meeting and at an executive meeting.

772.

In relation to children's rights and contentious issues, the smacking debate is about to come upon us. I do not see it as being contentious but as trying to be up to date with what is going on in relation to child welfare in Northern Ireland. As a result of the A v UK case in the European Court of Human Rights, the UK Government were told that they had to look at the notion of reasonable chastisement.

773.

Mr Beggs: Can you clarify the A v UK case?

774.

Ms Eagleson: A v UK is a case that was taken to the European Court of Human Rights by a boy whose stepfather had beaten him with a cane. That case went to the criminal court in England where the father was found not guilty. His defence was reasonable chastisement. The young boy then took his case to the European Court of Human Rights, and it was found that the legislation in the UK was detrimental and contravened the European Convention on Human Rights. The Government have had to carry out consultation on the notion of reasonable chastisement within the legislation. That will be debated in Northern Ireland as well.

775.

Mr Beggs: OK. At what stage do you think you can start to negotiate with the child? Is it at the age of two or the age of three?

776.

Ms Eagleson: I would refer back again to Butler-Sloss. There is case law and there are judgements that look at that issue. The Gillick principle, in particular, looks at the age at which young persons can make decisions for themselves. Victoria Gillick took that up with the courts. Nine times out of 10, children and parents will negotiate among themselves as to the best way forward, whether that involves a two-year-old child or a 16-year-old child. But there are times - for example, when Victoria Gillick was unhappy about her daughter receiving contraceptive advice and contraception from a doctor - where an outside agency is brought in. There are times when someone such as a Commissioner for Children is going to have to intervene.

777.

Mr Beggs: The budget is an interesting question as well. What budget do you think is needed for a Children's Commissioner? I am picking up from my contacts - and in some cases from young people - that social workers are under severe pressure. They appear to be facing backlogs at times. How much money should be going to the social workers, and how much money should be going to the Children's Commissioner? Where will this money come from?

778.

Ms Eagleson: Those are the sort of questions that you need to answer yourselves.

779.

Mr Beggs: What money do you think a Commissioner needs?

780.

Ms Eagleson: I think you need to look at what is happening in Norway, Sweden and the 10 to 15 other countries that have an Ombudsman or a Commissioner. You also need to look at the South and the other countries that are looking at the issue of appointing a Commissioner for Children. You should look at the sorts of budget that they are talking about.

781.

Establishing a Commissioner would cost little in comparison to the billions of pounds that are spent on negative "mopping-up" services for children when things go wrong. That includes child protection, coping with juvenile offenders, ill health and accidents to children.

782.

The experience of other countries suggests that an Office of the Commissioner would be extremely cost effective in improving law, policies and practice to ameliorate children's lives, and to improve the quality of life for society as a whole, both now and in the future.

783.

Mr Shannon: I am sorry that I missed your presentation, but I did look through some of the information beforehand. Should the Children's Commissioner be experienced in law or have been involved in services in that sector? Alternatively, should the Children's Commissioner have been a member, for instance, of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children or Barnardos? What qualities should a Children's Commissioner have?

784.

Ms Eagleson: I have provided a handout that summarises the key points and some of the main areas that are required for a Commissioner to be effective. The ability to communicate with children, to listen to them, to advocate on their behalf and to involve them in a meaningful way are qualities that a Commissioner for Children must have. In addition, foresight, the understanding of trends, political awareness with a small "p", and an ability to communicate with children and across all the Departments and agencies will be necessary.

785.

The Commissioner will need to become au fait with the workings of boards, trusts, Departments, NGOs and statutory bodies. The individual will be someone who has the ability to grasp that, but not necessarily someone from one of those particular areas. The job specification should include the qualities required, rather than state where applicants should be coming from.

786.

Mr Shannon: It should be somebody special.

787.

Ms Eagleson: Extremely special.

788.

The Chairperson: I also apologise for not hearing your presentation, but I look forward to reading it in Hansard and finding out your views. How important do you believe it is that the Children's Commissioner has a remit for children in the juvenile justice system?

789.

Ms Eagleson: That has been a recurring theme. I have mentioned to the Committee that the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 states that a child is anyone under the age of 18, in comparison with the juvenile justice legislation which defines a child as being anyone up to the age of 17. The Commissioner should be responsible for children - full stop. The Order is the basic foundation for everything else. It, and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, should be the guiding principles for any Commissioner's office.

790.

Ms Millen: As social workers we see a great deal in common between children in the juvenile justice system and children in the care system. In fact, there was one piece of research in the UK that said that half of the prison population under the age of 18 had been "looked-after children". There is a significant factor there.

791.

We would certainly be very concerned if the Children's Commissioner were prevented in any way from having juvenile justice as part of his or her remit. Criminal justice matters do arise.

792.

Ms Lewsley: What do you mean by the term "looked-after children"?

793.

Ms Millen: It replaced the term "children in care". Under the legislation, children in care are now subject to orders and can also be accommodated on a voluntary basis. The generic term is "looked after" - it means children looked after away from home. It is a piece of jargon.

794.

Ms Eagleson: A trust that looks after any young person for more than six months has the responsibility to provide aftercare for them up to the age of 21. Therefore the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 takes that beyond the age of 18 up to the age of 21.

795.

The Chairperson: Do members have any other questions?

796.

Ms Gildernew: I apologise for missing the presentation. How successful do you think it will be for the Children's Commissioner to have a remit in relation to children in the juvenile justice system, given that that area is currently a reserved matter? Is having that remit an achievable goal?

797.

Ms Eagleson: The new Government have the opportunity to formulate their own structures, and they need to look at ways of doing that. How the Commissioner fits into that has yet to be decided, but the Assembly needs to consider how it is going to get around that in relation to children who are aged 18 and in the juvenile justice system. Perhaps there will be a test case. A young person might go to the local courts about his or her human rights. It is difficult to say. It could go along the legal route.

798.

The Assembly has the opportunity to make some changes, and it is up to the decision makers in Government to decide the best way forward. Assembly Members understand the process better than we do.

799.

The Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. The Committee will use it in compiling its report.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 25 April 2001

Members present:

Mr E Poots (Chairperson)
Mr O Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr R Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Ms M Gildernew
Ms P Lewsley
Mr E McMenamin
Mr K Robinson
Mr J Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms M Connolly ) Northern Ireland Guardian
Mr S Knox ) Ad Litem Agency
Mr R Williamson )
Ms C Dixon ) The Law Society
Mr J Meehan ) of Northern Ireland

800.

The Chairperson: You are welcome to the Committee session. The representatives from the Northern Ireland Guardian Ad Litem Agency (NIGALA) and the Law Society of Northern Ireland will make a brief presentation and that will be followed by questions from the Committee members.

801.

Ms Connolly: The Guardian Ad Litem Agency has a small board of four members. There are three non-executive directors, two of whom are not here. The two absent board members are Jack Corr and Colette McAuley. Jack Corr is an accountant in a private practice in Dungannon, and Colette McAuley is a lecturer on social work at Queen's University Belfast. I am chairperson of the board, and I have 20 years' experience as a family law solicitor and have recently transferred to the bar. The fourth member of the board is Mr Ronnie Williamson who is the executive director. His background is in child-care social work, and his last appointment before becoming executive director of NIGALA in 1996 was as the commissioner for children services in the Southern Board and professional adviser to the area child protection committee.

802.

The other member of our delegation, Stephen Knox, is our training and public policy adviser. His background is as a social worker in the Health and Social Services trusts in Northern Ireland, and his last appointment before taking up a post in the management team at NIGALA last year was as assistant principal social worker in the South and East Belfast Trust.

803.

Mr Williamson: I have a short submission to make covering much of what we have already given in writing to the Committee. I took the opportunity to include in the submission a short synopsis of what the Guardian Ad Litem Agency is because, after four years, I am still asked what it is. It only came into being in November 1996 after the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, and it has been operative since then.

804.

As an agency we very much welcome the intention to establish a Children's Commissioner for Northern Ireland. I have commended it for several years, and I am delighted to see it coming about in my lifetime. This will be an enormous step forward for Northern Ireland, and it will mean that we will have a voice for children at the highest level. I hope that we will have policies that are harmonious in relation to children.

805.

I did not attempt to give you a job description for a Children's Commissioner. We have very good liaison with different groups. We have spoken to the people representing Putting Children First, and I know that they endeavoured to do something on that, and we would probably be in agreement with most of their proposals. Instead, we have tried to suggest three particular responsibilities for the Commissioner, particularly relating to children who appear before the courts in Northern Ireland and with particular reference to both public and private law proceedings.

806.

The first one that we noted concerns the monitoring of the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, in particular the reference to article 12. I suspect that this would not be a contentious proposal, and I am sure that the Committee has already heard people mention this on numerous occasions.

807.

We can rightly pride ourselves in Northern Ireland that since November 1996 we have met the obligations in article 12 in relation to children who are the subject of public law proceedings here, and that is through the guardian ad litem appointment in those sort of proceedings. It was a source of some shame to us that we did not have this earlier.

808.

Regarding England and Wales, the guardian ad litem service had its origins with the death of Maria Colwell back in 1973. She was a young girl who had been in care for five years and at age seven was killed at the hands of her stepfather. Her mother had remarried whilst she was in care and had asked to have her home - she applied to have the care order discharged and the local authority agreed. Maria was subsequently returned to her mum and stepfather and was killed by her stepfather 13 months later. That had a huge impact in England and Wales and led very directly to the inclusion in the Children Act 1975 in England and Wales of the provision for a guardian ad litem to report to the court the child's wishes, feelings and best interests when such an application would be made to the court again. It has been subsequently developed over the last 25 years in England and Wales to the point where they have a fully pledged guardian ad litem service.

809.

In relation to article 12, we very much welcome the Commissioner ensuring that there is scrutiny of the private law provision for children who appear in the courts or are involved in court proceedings. We are thinking particularly of children with contested custody arrangements, where the adults are at odds as to where the children should stay, who they should see, contact arrangements, et cetera. There might be an opportunity in Northern Ireland to extend article 12, and the rights of the children that are enshrined within article 12, to private law proceedings at a later stage.

810.

We mentioned in our submission that it should be the responsibility of the Commissioner to monitor the operation of the children's legislation in Northern Ireland, and, in particular, that of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 and the adoption legislation. We have tried to exemplify every proposal that we put before the Committee. One example of the good reason why a Commissioner should have an oversight of what was happening is the duration of care proceedings. We have found that that is of particular concern to our agency. We note that the duration of care proceedings before the courts is increasing year-on-year in Northern Ireland. Given that the "no delay" principle is enshrined in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, there is very good reason for concern.

811.

I will briefly mention the adoption legislation. There was a Prime Minister's review of adoption in England and Wales last autumn. That has been followed through with the Adoption and Children Bill. Everyone involved in adoption recognises that the whole picture has changed considerably over the last 20 years. We need new legislation and new provision. We also need a debate in Northern Ireland, similar to that which has occurred in England and Wales. We need a provision of service for the type of child who is being placed for adoption, and this is very often the looked-after child, as opposed to the baby.

812.

Finally, we suggest a third responsibility which would see the Commissioner taking account of the court processes, both in civil and criminal cases involving children. We are particularly concerned about the needs of each child who has to go into a courthouse in Northern Ireland. There has been no tradition in Northern Ireland of provision for families or children within a courthouse, and that is quite an austere position for a child. Even in public law proceedings, where there is a great deal of support from the Guardian Ad Litem Agency, it is still a relatively rare feature for children to be brought into courthouses. That is not the environment where we would wish to see children. That is a cause for concern, and it should be the responsibility of the Children's Commissioner, when appointed.

813.

Ms Dixon: My name is Catherine Dixon, and I am a solicitor in private practice in Portadown and a past president of the Law Society in Northern Ireland. I am presently chairing the family law committee of the Law Society. My colleague, John Meehan, is with me today. He is a solicitor in private practice in Belfast, immediate past president of the Law Society in Northern Ireland and a member of the accreditation board of the Children's Order panel, whose members are solicitors able to take instruction from children.

814.

I am a member of the Law Society's children panel and take instructions from children. The guardians employed by the agency instruct people like myself to appear for children and represent them in court. That can be challenging. Recently I have been representing children from eight months old to 14 years old. Obviously the eight-month-old is not able to give instruction, but she is very happy. The 14-year-old is quite clear that he is never going back to his mother. It can be quite challenging representing children.

815.

As regards the Law Society's response to your proposals, we, like many of the people who have given evidence, welcome the appointment of a Commissioner for Children. We see the Commissioner's role as one that will oversee all the services currently provided. In the four years that I have been involved with taking instructions from children and, therefore, with the implementation of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, it has been interesting to see how many areas of different Government Departments deal with children's issues.

816.

As a solicitor, my role is largely in the court process or I become involved when people are having trouble with their benefits or something of that nature. It has been quite amazing to see the variety of people who are involved in dealing with children. The Children's Commissioner should be someone who will be able to pull all children's issues together and get a much clearer picture.

817.

We must watch a number of issues to do with the courts. The creeping delay that Mr Williamson has mentioned is something that I am conscious of in cases that I have been dealing with. Some of it may be constructive delaying. The system must accept that there are occasions when delaying is constructive and that there are circumstances when it is appropriate for the child, for the family. Statistics do not tell you that. At the same time, there seems to be overall slippage that is a matter of great concern.

818.

We made five particular points in our submission. We thought it might assist the Committee if we kept our submission short and to the point because we knew you would get plenty of other paperwork. These are areas that, as solicitors, we see as being important.

819.

First of all, Mr Williamson has mentioned the private law cases. Those are really disputes amongst parents to do with residence and contact. They involve the wider family - grandparents, aunts, uncles, and so on. Sometimes one party tells one story about what the children want and the other party tells its solicitor something different. It would be very useful to have the benefit of a guardian's report for the court when the children are old enough to express a view - and when children are quite little they can express their views very clearly. At the moment there are only welfare reports prepared by the social services in the locality, and their remit is only to report on how things are. They do not have a specific role in representing the child's views and ascertaining their wishes and feelings. While the trust reports are useful, often they do not give an actual guide as to what should happen. In court, that can be difficult.

820.

Secondly, we feel it would be a good idea to have an integrated family court. This is an aspiration and not something that we expect to happen quickly. We would like all levels at which children have involvement with the courts to be dealt with in one integrated system. That is something we are quite keen on. There are some models that can be looked at. There has been some very good work in this area carried out in Scotland. Perhaps, in time, the Commissioner could look at this when he or she has managed to get to grips with all the other issues.

821.

The third point should perhaps have been higher up on the list because it has been vexing many of us greatly in that there have been difficulties about the level of available residential and secure accommodation for children. There was a report from the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee that made very strong recommendations which we hope will come into place soon. There have been a couple of cases in which children as young as 13 are being held in the women's prison in Maghaberry. It is just not appropriate. They were there because there was nowhere else to keep them. It says a lot when we cannot find somewhere to put a 13-year-old other than a woman's prison. That is not really the way things should be.

822.

I return to my point that the role of the Commissioner should be an overarching one. We have had the benefit of submissions shared with us by some of the other organisations who have been before the Committee already. There seemed to be a great deal of interest in the Commissioner having an amicus curiae status with the court and very individual investigative powers. We are concerned that that will detract from the Commissioner's overarching role and will actually involve him or her in a lot of individual casework.

823.

That is not how we see the role of the Commissioner. We see the Commissioner as a person who will be above the fray, who can see the problems, spot the gaps, flag them up and perhaps even participate in drafting legislation, rather that getting involved in particular cases. Perhaps when all other issues are resolved the Commissioner could get involved in individual cases. However, this is something that needs to be looked at properly, and we should not throw away any good ideas. Certainly, at first flush, this does not seem like a good idea to us, and I would like you to consider that.

824.

Lastly, I mentioned this because I am a member of the Lord Chancellor's Children Order Advisory Committee. That is another place where I have seen the diversity of people involved in trying to do the best for children in all types of areas. I have seen their various skills and disciplines. It seems a pity that these skills cannot be better used. The remit of that committee is very tight, and it does not give opportunities for different perspectives. As a solicitor, I have a different perspective from that of Mr Williamson, who is coming from a social work background. The same is true for someone coming from an educational background or a residential care background.

825.

That will be something that the Commissioner could plug into. He or she could perhaps restructure some of these committees or use them as a model to find a means of being kept informed. Reports from bodies such as the Children Order Advisory Committee should also go to the Commissioner so that he or she can pool all the ideas and reports from the different agencies. Those are the thoughts that have occurred to us, and we are happy to answer any questions.

826.

The Chairperson: I take it from your remarks that you do not think that the Commissioner should have a role in initiating or participating in legal proceedings, even if he thinks it is in the best interests of the children.

827.

Ms Dixon: There are already people there who can do that. What would worry me is that the Commissioner could be overstretched for time. I presume this will be one person, and that he or she will not have a ginormous budget or staff. If you start getting involved in one-to-one casework you will be up to your ears in no time. If the main purpose of the Commissioner is to oversee all this, then you will have lost that immediately. My impression is that most people see the Commissioner's role as being to pull in all that is going on - because so much is going on.

828.

The Chairperson: Is that the view of the Guardian Ad Litem Agency as well?

829.

Mr Williamson: We have a relatively open mind on the matter. We appreciate that the European Convention on Human Rights is now incorporated into domestic law, and it is obviously feasible for individual solicitors to challenge in all domestic cases. There may be a specific occasion when the Commissioner might see fit to become involved in specific cases. However, that is an area that I would leave to the lawyers rather than get involved in myself.

830.

The Chairperson: What particular weaknesses currently exist in the system that the Commissioner would need to address?

831.

Mr Williamson: I have already referred to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and for coming here today I had a quick look at a leaflet that I have about the New Zealand Commissioner for Children. Much emphasis is put on the role that he or she has in monitoring the UN Convention in New Zealand. I think that will have to be a cornerstone of any role in Northern Ireland. We would have grave difficulty demonstrating to anybody that we meet the article 12 right, as it is enshrined in the UN Convention at the moment, in relation to private law cases. We meet it in public law cases because of the establishment of the Guardian Ad Litem Agency in Northern Ireland, but we do not meet it in relation to private law cases. There is an opportunity there.

832.

I was speaking to Claire Archbold of the Office of Law Reform; she was consulting on divorce law recently. I made the point that there would be an opportunity to make a start in Northern Ireland. I know at the end of the day that it is all about resources and that numbers of private law cases can be immense in comparison to those in public law. However, we could start on a very limited basis on the private law side. For example, we could specify that the case had to be contested and that it had to involve children. We could put a final stipulation that the guardian ad litem would only be appointed in that type of situation if evidence of domestic violence were before the court. That would ensure that we, as least, were beginning to move forward into the area of private law area. We would be beginning to meet some of the requirements of article 12 in relation to children and private law proceedings, and we would not be waiting on England and Wales to move in this direction.

833.

They have had that provision. It was put into the Family Law Act 1996, but they have not made the regulations to bring it into force. We have a great opportunity in Northern Ireland to begin to test the waters, to move forward a little in our own right. This was well received when I commended that action to the Office of Law Reform. That is one example of a real weakness in the system, and it is an immense weakness. Whilst the UK Government have ratified the Convention, we have difficulty in meeting it in so many respects. We must be very clear about where we do not meet it, about where the weaknesses are, and try to rectify them.

834.

Ms Dixon: I agree that private law cases are the big gap. The numbers are massive, so it would have to be very tightly drawn. It is a big anomaly. In a court you can have two cases side by side. One is a public law case and you have a guardian and a report with you. You have seen the guardian with the child and you both have a very clear picture of what the situation is, as does the court. In the other case you could have mum saying that the wee fellow does not want to go to dad; the solicitor for dad saying that the child does want to go to dad, and so on and so forth, and you cannot get to the bottom of it. The child may be about 12 years old, and the court will not ask a 12-year-old to come in and pick. That just does not happen. That is the big weakness, but it can be remedied. The agency is there, and it has the skills. However, it would need more resources. At the same time, if the case is tightly drawn the courts will have the ability to get to the bottom of it, rather than children voting with their feet, which sometimes happens.

835.

Mr Gibson: The previous delegation seemed to have a little difficulty with the thinking behind more recent legislation. How do we define the term "child" legally, and what is your understanding of the term? Does it start at three or five years of age and end at 10 or 18? Where exactly does other law cut across that? For example, will the Commissioner find difficulties with existing laws, particularly in view of the Bulger case and other areas that has caused us to change our working practices? Take swimming pools. At what age can a child be left to enjoy a swim without parental supervision? The whole raft of legislation is causing difficulty, so how do you define it?

836.

Mr Meehan: I do think there is a definition of children as such, in which one says anyone of 17 years of age and under would be defined as child - from birth forward. We have had a debate about pre-birth. I am not quite clear about the point you are raising regarding the acceptable standards of care for children at various -

837.

Mr Gibson: I did not mention standards of care at all. I am looking for what is defined legally as a "child". The Bulger case brought out a whole series of issues of responsibilities, which is really what we are talking about here. Some people once defined a Child Commissioner as the "Mother Theresa of abandoned parental responsibility", but I thought that was hard talk. What I am getting at here is that there seem to be some anomalies in existing law. What I am for looking here is how the Law Society reasonably defines the term "child".

838.

Ms Dixon: The problem is the context. Each piece of legislation has a particular purpose and in so doing tends to draw a line. Girls can get married at 16 years of age, and we define them as children, but you tell that to a 13-year-old. She does not regard herself as a child. Culturally, lots of things have moved on from when this legislation was made, and a lot of it is evolving.

839.

Mr Meehan: The Bulger case is about what stage you hold a child responsible in law for their conduct, which is a complex matter. Though you say it is a matter for the Law Society, you could equally have a team of psychiatrists dumbfounded trying to agree at what stage a child, in answering under criminal law for its conduct, has that full understanding - in particular the capacity of responsibility for being accountable for malice. That goes back to theological arguments inasmuch as determining the age children have free will and are accountable for their actions. Some schools would say that that occurs at the age of seven.

840.

As Ms Dixon says, the whole system is a quilt of answers to questions raised for different purposes. Therefore there are a series of pleats which are not entirely logical. Lawyers will always resort to the phrase "It depends". We will say "It depends what the problem is: we will give you the answer, now tell us what the problem is." I am talking about courts, which have a difficult job to do in that they are driven towards a problem for which everyone expects them to provide the answer.

841.

Mr Gibson: The source of my question was really as to how a Children's Commissioner would operate given the precedents already set. How difficult will it be for such a Commissioner to act bearing in mind the quilt of answers you referred to? How difficult will it be for a Children's Commissioner?

842.

Mr Meehan: The jurisdiction of a Children's Commissioner will encompass persons of 17 and under. The extent to which such a Commissioner will rank his priorities when considering instances when the weight of his office should be brought to bear will depend on whether the children involved lack proper presentation and support for their difficulties. For example, the proper provision for residential or secure care for children covers the entire range up to age 17. Therefore the Commissioner might feel that a child - even if he is on the street as a large, dangerous, threatening object in certain contexts - is still a child. Others might take a devil-take-the-hindmost approach. However, the Commissioner might feel that this is a child who has been given up on in a very unacceptable way. He might feel that the person is still a child who is still at a very developmental stage and requires appropriate attention.

843.

Mr Gibson: Will the Commissioner not really be taking over your duty and responsibility?

844.

Ms Dixon: I do not see that as being the Commissioner's role. I see the Commissioner as being someone who will give a report to the Assembly as to what is going on in the community. There is so much going on. Many people are beavering away in different areas towards assisting children and yet that work is not pulled together in any way. No one actually knows the full extent of all the services involved.

845.

Mr Meehan: To stay with my analogy, if it is a quilt then it will have to have a hem. One function of the Commissioner will be to see that the pattern makes sense. There was a movie a few nights ago about quilt making and when the quilt maker was asked if she chose a particular colour because she liked to see a balance of colours she replied that it was because she did not want a bloody ugly quilt. Ultimately the Commissioner will be there to see that things do fit together.

846.

In light of the discussion we have just had, you can see our view that instead of asking what the answers will be in certain contexts, it would be better for the Commissioner to stand back and decide if a situation weighs things properly for the children concerned. That will be one of the overview responsibilities of the Commissioner.

847.

For the above reason we have reservations about the concept of a Children's Commissioner going into court on individual cases. It has to be a choice between a champion of individual cases on a daily basis or seeing that those who are charged with that responsibility are working to the public good or need a steer about staying on the public-benefit track.

848.

The Chairperson: Should the Commissioner have any role for those people who are aged 18 or over but have the mental age of a child?

849.

Ms Connolly: Those people are mentally incapacitated adults. The Lord Chancellor carried out a review on mentally incapacitated adults about two years ago. I do not think that anything came out as a result of it. The Guardian Ad Litem Agency would not expect the Children's Commissioner to have responsibility for that group. It would be strictly responsible for people under 18.

850.

Mr Beggs: I appreciate your coming here today and sharing your legal expertise. Court is a difficult environment for children.

851.

Ms Dixon: Court is a difficult environment for adults.

852.

Mr Beggs: Do you agree that it is not essential for the Commissioner to have a legal background, although it may be a beneficial asset?

853.

Ms Dixon: Absolutely.

854.

Mr Beggs: The Committee received presentations from young people that show that children find it difficult to communicate with adults. Do you agree that it may be more important for the Commissioner to have good communication skills with young people, provided that he or she had, at least, legal expertise on his or her team to bring to hand when needed?

855.

Mr Meehan: That is absolutely right, and I would go further. I would not necessarily say that it is desirable for the Commissioner to have legal skills but there is no starting presumption that the person who gets the job must have legal knowledge; the legal aspect could be more than adequately dealt with by a back-up team. It is simply a question of what candidate is available - lawyer or non-lawyer. The job specification does not insist on a lawyer.

856.

Mr Beggs: You spoke about the role of the Commissioner as a "quilt". You seemed to be saying that the overview would perhaps be input in new legislation and spotting failings in existing legislation. There must be some sort of legal role with individual cases. Would that be perhaps purely on a referral or signposting basis? If someone contacts the Commissioner's office about a specific problem, it cannot simply say "Sorry that has nothing to do with us". The Commissioner's office must play a signposting role and be a central communication point for young people.

857.

Ms Dixon: The Children's Law Centre provides that facility for children in general.

858.

Mr Beggs: Would you see organisations such as the Children's Law Centre becoming a wing of the Children's Commissioner?

859.

Ms Dixon: No. The Children's Commissioner must be above all of that.

860.

Ms Gildernew: How important do you feel it is for the Commissioner to have a remit for children who are in the juvenile justice system and that the matter is not transferred?

861.

Mr Meehan: We spoke earlier about a family court system. That is specifically about challenging the notion that there are different streams of court systems for children by reference to whether they happen to come in under the juvenile justice system, a care problem or because mum and dad do not agree on where a child should live. They all raise issues about what is necessary for the protection and security of the child. Are the child's best interests being given the priority that they warrant? Are the system and the methods of the lawyers and the court structures - its architecture, its physicality and its procedures - consistent with a commitment to the best interests of the children? One issue that NIGALA and the Law Society are clear about is that to have any fluency and real efficacy, the function of a Children's Commissioner must be one that does not draw any traditional barriers across the experience of children when their fate is in the hands of other agencies, including the court system.

862.

Ms Gildernew: Should the Commissioner have the power to enter a residential centre or children's home without prior notice in order to carry out his or her duties effectively?

863.

Mr Williamson: There are complaints procedures for children in care in each Health and Social Services trust. I imagine that those procedures would be exhausted by the child or by his or her representatives or advocate. If the child or his representative is unhappy with the outcome, he may approach the Commissioner as a last resort. I would understand the Commissioner's being given powers of access and investigation in that regard.

864.

Mrs E Bell: I was interested in what you said about the interrelated system, and we feel that all the organisations involved should co-ordinate their efforts. How do you see your organisation co-ordinating with other organisations? Do you feel that a Children's Commissioner should have an overarching role? In your brief you say that

the court process in relation to civil and criminal cases involving children take full account of the needs of the individual child with a list of immediate requirements.

865.

How should a Children's Commissioner help children and parents who are dealing with the legal system to assert their rights and to seek remedies when their rights have been infringed?

866.

Mr Williamson: I have spent my entire working life in health and social services and child protection in particular, and the part of it which I have enjoyed the most has been my work with the Area Child Protection Committee, which is a multidisciplinary body. It has been marvellous to meet motivated people from social services, health and education who worked together in the interests of children.

867.

I have carried that forward into the new agency, and we have excellent relationships with many of these organisations. There was an announcement recently that there would be a children's forum in Northern Ireland, although I am not entirely sure of its position.

868.

Mrs E Bell: Neither are we.

869.

Mr Williamson: Perhaps it is to be a non- governmental body. If it is, I am not sure that a statutory agency such as ours would be allowed to be involved in it. However, there must be machinery to allow a Commissioner to take advantage of the views of the different children's organisations. The children's forum is the germ of a really good idea, and I would love to hear more about it.

870.

A Commissioner will have to be able to consult children and children's organisations directly, and we will have to look at what role we can play in that.

871.

As Ms Dixon said earlier, there is a Children Order Advisory Committee which reports to the Lord Chancellor and to the Secretary of State on the progress of children's cases under the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. If a Commissioner is appointed, the committee's remit should be reviewed. It would be helpful to reconstitute it from bodies right across the scenario where children appear in court. In other words, you will bring in juvenile justice and there will even be responsibility for child witnesses who have to appear in court. It would somehow become a standing committee.

872.

We, as an agency, are represented through our chairman, Mary Connolly, on the Children Order Advisory Committee, and we expect to be still involved in that type of committee however it is constituted. It would be an excellent body that the Commissioner could relate to and would take an annual report from. The Commissioner would be made totally aware of how events were unfolding for children coming before the courts in Northern Ireland.

873.

Mrs E Bell: Therefore you are accessing rights for children by that good relationship built on progress.

874.

Mr Williamson: Yes.

875.

Ms Connolly: The committee is limited in its function under the Children Order, which means that, for instance, the Children Order Committee - which you might think has a definite role in adoption proceedings, particularly because of the agency's role in adoption as well - does not have such a role under the legislation.

876.

We perceive that the Children's Commissioner could say that something is nonsensical. If there is going to be an overarching role for the committee, I want to have co-ordination between all the pieces of legislation that govern children and children's activities in Northern Ireland. That is where we have noticed that multidisciplinary work is not just working, but is working well. However, that is only within the committee and the limited framework that it has been given.

877.

Ms Lewsley: What will be the relationship between most of the organisations that we have had presentations from and the Commissioner for Children? The worry was that people would think that the Commissioner's role will be for children only and the other organisations can forget about their part because he or she will deal with that. We hope that that will not be the case, but the problem is that the whole issue of children is so wide. How do you narrow it down, even with regard to, as you have just mentioned, legislation? Some of the legislation with regard to reserved matters is not really very useful here at times, particularly in the area of criminal justice and some other areas. Should the Commissioner for Children have the power to change legislation in Northern Ireland?

878.

I do not want the Commissioner to be bogged down in specific pieces. There are a plethora of organisations doing very good work. How do we co-ordinate all that to get the best effect for children at whatever age, from eight months right through, so that those children are represented and their voices are heard and any gaps are filled?

879.

That is why it is important for us when your organisation says that its priority is the gap in legislation with regard to private law. Are there other gaps that you see as a priority, particularly in the law area, for change? The Commissioner will look at our information when he or she takes up the post. It would be very proactive if there were specific areas that the Commissioner could look at right away and define areas that need short-, medium- and long-term measures.

880.

Ms Dixon: That is what I had intended, Chairman. Obviously the point about the residential and secure accommodation is that that is something that is taken up as soon as he or she gets in to post. That might be unfair because it may be that that is already in hand, but that is something that is a big priority.

881.

The creeping delay in the system is being looked at by the Children Order Advisory Committee, but it does no harm if the Children's Commissioner is aware how the committee is progressing with it. I agree with you it is about looking for the gaps.

882.

At the moment the most obvious one is in the private law cases. The integrated family court would be a longer-term objective with its devolved matters. It still does not stop the Commissioner commenting on matters which are not devolved, as regards what is going on in the juvenile justice system and saying that it is not working. Not enough people at the right level are able to say that to the Lord Chancellor's Office, and it would do no harm.

883.

Mr Williamson: I spoke earlier about adoption legislation. There is a critical need. We cannot wait another six years. We have to move forward with revised legislation on adoption for Northern Ireland. You probably heard earlier from the British Association of Social Workers about the needs of looked-after children. These are the children who are being adopted today. In the proposed new legislation for England and Wales a new special guardianship order may be used instead of an adoption order. That reflects the fact that these children have parents and relationships and that they will want to have contact with those people. We need to look very quickly indeed at our situation in Northern Ireland.

884.

We could benefit greatly from a rationalisation of the system. The support services to the courts in Northern Ireland, of which ours is one, have developed piecemeal over the years. There is a real sense now that we have to stop and consider whether we can rationalise these services. It has happened in England and Wales. We do not need to follow them automatically - in fact, I do not think that blueprint would automatically work over here - but I really do believe that in Northern Ireland we should be looking at how we are providing services to the courts. Again, there is a need to move very swiftly in that area.

885.

Mr Meehan: I do not suggest that this should be a top priority, but I would not like it to be lost at the bottom of the list of things to look at. Court buildings may well last another 20, 30 years or more. Into those buildings are being structured the contemporary conceptions as to what a courthouse does, how it accommodates people and what facilities there are. In five or ten years' time I would imagine that there would need to be adequate facilities for families in court buildings - more and better family rooms. The danger is that we would then be told that these are up-and-running courthouses, they are established and that a new courthouse is not envisaged for another 20 or 30 years. Such matters as how the public feel, how families feel in having to be brought to - and it is seen as having to be brought to - a court environment and how they are processed through that are very important. This is the generation in which the architecture and structure of issues surrounding those matters have been in hand for a couple of years past and will be for a couple of years to come. After that it will be firmed in cement.

886.

Mr Knox: Practical arrangements in courts should be much more child and family-friendly. In care cases particularly, we would be looking to have a more inquisitorial approach to public law cases. The adversarial approach obviously pitches people against each other and comes out with winners and losers, and not always the best solutions. From a child's point of view, we would want to see changes in the process as well as in the practicalities.

887.

Mr Shannon: Do you see the role of the Children's Commissioner as investigating cases in which the complaints procedure has not brought a successful or satisfactory conclusion in respect of children? Do you see it as overseeing - double-checking - the process?

888.

Mr Knox: Yes, we are particularly concerned with children who are looked after. Under the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 there is a detailed complaints procedure in relation to those children. That procedure goes through a first and second stage, and both stages involve independent people who are investigating the complaint. The second stage of the procedure is formal, but if there were still no resolution after that stage the Children's Commissioner would step in.

889.

Mr Gibson: What percentage of the population do you foresee in five years' time having to use or resort to the Commissioner?

890.

Ms Dixon: I do not think that the public should be resorting to the Children's Commissioner. The Commissioner should spot gaps in particular cases and circumstances and then recommend changes in procedure. The Children's Commissioner should try to find ways of getting things to work better.

891.

Mr Gibson: Where do the parents fit in to all of that? There is always a concentration on agencies, and so on, which you carefully listed. I am wary of that, and I asked the group the same question. However, no one mentioned the parents.

892.

Ms Dixon: Grandparents are becoming a bigger factor in these situations. The people who matter to a child are also part of what this is about. People who work with children notice that the significant people in the children's lives are always a factor.

893.

Just because we are talking about children does not mean that the adults are being ignored. We want to know how to enable children to have contact with all the people who matter to them and who are significant in their lives, even if it is somebody who has childminded them for 10 years. It is important that adults who play a significant part in a child's life continue to be part of it. I do not know if the role of the Children's Commissioner, as we see it, can be built into that.

894.

The Chairperson: There has been concern expressed that the costs associated with the appointment of a Children's Commissioner and an office for the Commissioner would mean that the funding for other services would be reduced. The British Association of Social Workers indicated that there were significant savings to be made in the Commissioner's office by mopping up a lot of things and stopping things happening that should not happen. Do you see potential savings being made in the way that children's issues are administered in relation to that?

895.

Ms Connolly: At present there is a fragmentation of services across the board, and if the role of the Commissioner is to look at that and to co-ordinate it properly then there may be savings made. I could not quantify what that saving might be, but it is inefficient and counterproductive to have many organisations doing different things. For instance, there are three or four different organisations applying services to the courts - the Guardian Ad Litem Agency, the trusts and the Official Solicitor. That is the sort of thing that the Children's Commissioner should be looking at and saying "No, this could be more effectively done". Arising out of that there would also be financial savings.

896.

Mr Meehan: It would not save costs if the Children's Commissioner were involved in court cases. That would entail an extra team of lawyers - an extra party to proceedings - extra delay and above all extra costs.

897.

The Chairperson: What resources would you like to see put towards a Commissioner? What size of office would the Commissioner need to have?

898.

Mr Williamson: I hoped that you would tell us that.

899.

The Chairperson: Should the Assembly be looking to the Northern Ireland Office, as a lot of the matters relating to children are reserved? Should we be looking to the Northern Ireland Office at an early stage and to engage in talks? The Commissioner will be financed in part by the Northern Ireland Office and not totally financed by the Assembly.

900.

Ms Dixon: We agree with that.

901.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for coming.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 2 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Ms Gildernew
Ms Lewsley
Mrs Courtney
Dr McDonnell
Mr McMenamin
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Mrs M Cunningham ) Director,
Child Care Northern Ireland
Mr R McCrea ) First Key NI
Dr J Pinkerton ) First Key NI
Mrs K Lewis ) Northern Ireland Foster
Care Association
Ms O Lyner ) Northern Ireland Association
for the Care and
Resettlement of Offenders

902.

The Chairperson: We have two evidence sessions examining different aspects of the possible remit of a Commissioner for Children. There are representatives from a number of organisations which co-ordinate childcare in Northern Ireland. We shall have a short introduction by Mary Cunningham, director of Child Care Northern Ireland. That will be followed by a brief submission from each organisation, after which we shall have questions and answers. Briefing papers from First Key (Northern Ireland), the Northern Ireland Foster Care Association (NIFCA), and the Parents' Advice Centre (PAC) are available. A briefing paper from the Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC) is tabled for members' information.

903.

I ask the groups to come forward.

904.

Mrs Cunningham: I am sorry, but Kelly Collins from VOYPIC has not arrived. We also have with us Dr John Pinkerton, chairperson of First Key (Northern Ireland); he and Ross McCrea will share their evidence.

905.

The Chairperson: Please make your presentation and introduce the people with you today. I ask that you keep your submissions brief.

906.

Mrs Cunningham: I should like to thank you for giving Child Care Northern Ireland's members a second opportunity to present evidence on the Children's Commissioner to the Committee. You will have received copies of Child Care Northern Ireland's briefing paper on the Commissioner. As you mentioned, there are a number of briefing papers from individual members of the delegation which highlight certain issues which we shall talk about today. Ross McCrea is the senior policy officer from First Key (Northern Ireland), the leaving and aftercare organisation. Dr John Pinkerton is the chair of First Key (Northern Ireland) and is also the assistant director of the Centre for Childcare Research at Queen's University, Belfast. Kate Lewis is director of the NIFCA, and Olwen Lyner is director of the Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO).

907.

Dr Pinkerton: I shall begin by drawing attention to the first page of our written submission, where we set out the function of First Key (Northern Ireland). We also state our aim of improving the life chances of young people of 16 and over who are leaving or have left care. It is important to understand that First Key (Northern Ireland) is not a direct service-provider organisation; rather it acts as a resource for organisations which plan and provide services through training, developmental consultancy, evaluations and audits and public policy work.

908.

We are committed to understanding and making available care-leavers' own experiences and views on what has and has not been helpful to them in making their transition to adulthood. We wish to welcome the prospect of a Commissioner for Children's rights. It is an important additional component in the support framework necessary to enhance the status of and improve the quality of life for all Northern Ireland's children and young people.

909.

The prospect of a Commissioner for Children raises two important points for us. First, the Commissioner is an additional resource. Secondly, the functions of the post will cover all children. The second page of our written submission provides a list of characteristics we feel the Commissioner must have. From that list you will see - as with our colleagues across the voluntary sector - that we are looking for a Commissioner with the necessary power, authority, independence and respect to take on a promotional and investigatory role. We see it as a role taking the UN Convention as its touchstone. Young people leaving care would benefit from the activities of a Commissioner, both from the general benefits to all children and young people, and also in a number of specific ways, as we shall now illustrate.

910.

Mr McCrea: Perhaps I might take you directly to the bottom list on page two of the briefing paper and make one or two illustrations. In the promotional aspect, highlighting good practice is one of the points we wish to make. Number five on the list involves promoting the teaching of rights among social-services professionals. A Commissioner could encourage and exchange good practice in promoting and raising awareness of children's rights and the implications such a course would have on professionals working in the area. We could refer to the minutes in the Commissioner's annual report on the status of children and match them against the UN Convention.

911.

A second point would ensure that children and young people are informed about public policy proposals. For example, we are currently considering proposals for a new Bill dealing with children leaving care. The children's rights Commissioner could take on a public relations initiative such as television, perhaps having a monthly slot about current issues concerning children and young people, within which he could discuss public policies and proposals. The Commissioner will have a very recognisable and high-profile position. An investigatory role will involve asking hard questions: what is happening; questions about the systems; and others particular to young people.

912.

When looking at children as a new legislative need, one of the questions we ask is if we need a Commissioner. The guidance and regulation in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 on children in care set out very good practice regarding appeals being heard. However, it has clearly not been implemented, and there are resource implications. That is really something the Children's Commissioner could lead on.

913.

We were talking to some care-leavers last night, and they pointed out the case of two who entered higher education, giving examples of how they received very different levels of financial support from different trusts. A Commissioner could investigate why one individual was disadvantaged.

914.

Dr Pinkerton: I imagine we shall come back to some of these points in discussion. However, we hope that those few are sufficient to illustrate that a Commissioner will benefit young people leaving care. A Commissioner would reinforce specific work underway in relation to a particularly vulnerable group and be responsible for ensuring cumulative general benefits for all children.

915.

Mrs Lewis: NIFCA is a voluntary organisation comprising foster carers and social workers. Our three main aims are: to promote foster care throughout Northern Ireland; to provide training opportunities for foster carers and social workers; and to provide direct independent support to carers and others.

916.

The Committee has heard evidence about the role of the Children's Commissioner and how he could affect a broad range of issues involving children, who comprise one third of the population. I have outlined certain issues concerning children in public care in the briefing paper.

917.

In 1999 there were 2,324 children in public care in Northern Ireland. Sixty-five per cent were looked after in foster care, and that fact is often not recognised. When people think of public care, they often think of residential care, but the majority is being cared for in homes throughout Northern Ireland, with children in residential care a tiny minority. However, those children have experienced many difficulties in their lives, including abuse, and they often need additional help to recover from those experiences. Judging by the telephone calls we receive, vulnerable children in care, along with their carers and social workers, often face an uphill struggle in accessing appropriate and timely services. We feel that a Commissioner for Children could act as a powerful watchdog in ensuring that services are targeted at those children and that they receive the service we would wish for our own offspring.

918.

My second point concerns examining the Children's Commissioner as a champion for children. The proposals already outlined by Child Care Northern Ireland included the role of monitoring services, and we endorse that. Monitoring services, including the allocation of resources, is an issue, and often resources are allocated to children's services but may not be spent in that area. We feel it could be a very powerful role for the Commissioner. For example, the Social Services Inspectorate report on fostering in Northern Ireland, which was published in 1998, found that, while fostering is the dominant type of care, the total expenditure on the service was only £2·14 million. In 1999 £2·44 million was spent on children's residential services.

919.

The majority of children are looked after by foster parents, with 11% in residential care, yet more resources go on the latter. Our contention is that well- supported foster carers with the necessary financial resources could safeguard the rights of children in their care and help promote a service that would increase their self- confidence. It would also meet their needs for physical, emotional and social growth. We see the ability to oversee and monitor resources as a very important role.

920.

Thirdly, children and young people in foster care have the right to feel safe and protected from abuse and neglect. The Children's Commissioner could have a role in promoting those rights and investigating any denial of them. He must ensure a balance is struck between the rights of children in care and those of carers and their families, something that is very difficult to achieve. The Children's Commissioner could ensure that, where complaints or allegations are made, they are acted on and investigated promptly. At present the process is subject to lengthy delays which are stressful for carers and children. That is of added significance in foster care, for it is home-based. The independence of the Children's Commissioner could act as a catalyst in helping to promote interagency co-operation in that very difficult area where complaints or allegations have been made. We feel they could have an information and advice role with a variety of agencies, including the social services, the police, the courts and the Director of Public Prosecutions.

921.

The birth children of foster carers can play an invaluable role with those placed in their families. They too have the right to see their family life protected; we must ensure parents are not overwhelmed by the tasks they have undertaken. They also need opportunities to have their viewpoint listened to and taken into account in the provision of services. While many services are targeted - and rightly so - at children in foster care, the children of carers are often a neglected group; they too have rights as well as responsibilities in the family.

922.

We feel the Commissioner would need to be someone with the ability to listen and the skills to engage directly with children. He will also need to be able to consult with parents and others involved in the promotion of children's rights. The successful candidate will have a tricky balancing act between the rights and responsibilities, taking into consideration the rights of children but also the concerns and rights of parents and others involved in family life.

923.

Finally, to make a difference to children's lives, the Commissioner must have the necessary powers and resources to enable him to carry out his duties.

924.

Ms Lyner: I should like to start by acknowledging the Committee's work today and the representations made by other agencies; we have looked at that evidence.

925.

In broad terms, NIACRO is concerned that all organisations target interventions to prevent family breakdown and support parents, skills development and nursery playgroups. Such early years interventions are all measures we know help develop socialisation and interactive skills.

926.

NIACRO critically believes that the family should remain the cornerstone of effective parenting for the child wherever possible, and we must all work to ensure we support parents and develop skills.

927.

NIACRO's focus today is on two groups of children whose lives are affected by the criminal justice system, either because they themselves have been through court proceedings or because their parents or carers have done so. It is our intention that the Commissioner has responsibility for all children's issues, including reserved matters. All children in Northern Ireland should come under the Commissioner's ambit.

928.

I now come to NIACRO's specific concerns. In relation to youth justice, we ask the Commissioner to review the appropriateness of the present age of criminal responsibility and the current practice of holding 17-year-olds in young offenders' centres. The creation of an approved appointed youth justice board would examine the move to a new site - the reduction of three sites to one. In that context, the Commissioner should examine the development of policy and practice to ensure that resources are allocated transparently. Agreeing the appropriate staffing mix, and how that would be delivered, would call for equality proofing of the decision to locate juvenile justice on a single site at Rathgael under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

929.

We want the Commissioner to examine the current usage of secure units to ensure there is no inappropriate seepage into any other parts of the system, particularly in mental health provision. In that respect, the Commissioner should evidence the consistency of decisions and prosecutions across Northern Ireland with specific reference to rural and urban settings. In the overall area, NIACRO confirms the value of the children's services planning process and the establishment in each area of a subgroup focusing on both children for whom offending and its consequences have been a significant feature of their lives and on those who are at risk of offending.

930.

In the report I previously submitted I focused on the children of prisoners and a report from a conference held in October 2000. That report looks at research evidence from England and Wales showing us that, where a father has been convicted, 63% of sons will themselves have gone through court proceedings by the age of 15. Where a father and mother have both been convicted, 93% of sons will have done so.

931.

The children of prisoners are a group little focused on - though the children will require later attention regarding their engagement with society - and it would be useful to focus resources on them as soon as it is possible for us to engage with the families. In our representations to you we wished to focus on issues in connection with reserved matters. The children in question are living in our communities, and we shall be concerned with them in future if we do not observe the early-warning systems available.

932.

Our overarching concern is to ensure that the Commissioner enhances and increases the effectiveness of all current services and is not seen as someone who will increase bureaucracy. We want the Commissioner to deal with four specific issues. The first is the co- ordination of ongoing transparent and open investigations - and that means open access to all children. The second is the need for the childproofing of legislative policy and practice. The third is ensuring that the process of planning services for children works for all of them. Finally, the Commissioner should listen to children and be visible to them.

933.

Ms Gildernew: Our consultation has been quite extensive, and the Committee wants to get its recommendations right. It was interesting that you all mentioned the fact that the Commissioner must be independent. It has been a common theme today that responsibility for children should be within his remit. Do you see any difficulty with the care of all children being under that remit - including those children in the juvenile justice system? As a Committee member, I wish to see a Commissioner in a post which is properly resourced and which deals with all children. Do you feel we shall be able to achieve that? What must we do to ensure we can?

934.

Mrs Cunningham: We hope we shall have no difficulty in achieving that. Our anxiety is due to the initial experiences of the Children's Commissioner in Wales. The Commissioner had a limited remit and powers, and while we welcome the fact that the remit has now been extended to include children who are the subject of reserved matters, the duties and powers in relation to those children are really quite different and significantly reduced. As a children's voluntary sector, we struggle with the idea of a Commissioner who would not have all the duties and powers necessary to provide the same equitable level of commitment to our most vulnerable children as he would provide to the others.

935.

Ms Lyner: That is a useful point. From evidence we have we are able to say that about 300 children were admitted to the juvenile justice system last year. If reserved powers in relation to children within the estate - and also children on probation - came under the remit of the Commissioner, I do not feel, given the size of the population, that the numbers would be significant. It would be significant, however, if such a small population were isolated from the rest of the children under the Commissioner's remit. Children in the community, the youth service and schools would be under his remit, and if they went into one system you would not be concerned about them, but about those outside his remit. Our view is that the numbers would not actually test the system overall; the real test would be why we should exclude such a small number of children from the Commissioner's remit.

936.

Ms Gildernew: Did the limitations on powers experienced by the Welsh Commissioner mean he was not able to carry out his functions properly? Was it a waste of time having a Commissioner who could only carry out half his work?

937.

Mrs Cunningham: The Welsh Commissioner was only appointed on 1 March. Therefore the institution is still in the early days. Our colleagues in Wales working in the children's sector anticipate that it will present difficulties. Some children are in homes because of care proceedings and some because of justice proceedings, and the Commissioner would have a very different remit in relation to each of those groups in the same unit. At some stage in the future, that must present very significant challenges.

938.

Dr Pinkerton: It is not an issue of whether it would be good to have a Commissioner with the ability to carry out a quarter or half of their workload or all of it. We cannot stress the historic opportunity enough.

939.

Ms Lewsley: The important thing is that we ensure the Commissioner's powers are as wide as possible, though he may never use them. It is better that the Commissioner be given too many powers at the outset rather that too few.

940.

We discussed the guardian ad litem system last week, and people were concerned that, though we gave the Commissioner a remit, he might be restricted. If we decide that part of the remit will be to represent children in court, the Commissioner might become bogged down and not be able to do anything else; there must be a happy medium.

941.

You mentioned children's rights in some of your opening statements. How aware of their rights are children or the people who care for them? How big do you think the Commissioner's role in that area should be? The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child has been mentioned, and it has been suggested that the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 should be used as guidance for the Commissioner.

942.

Mr McCrea: As someone who has looked after young people, I should like to make some remarks. The report 'Advocacy for Children and Young People' was produced in 1995. It looked particularly at children's rights and how they could be promoted. It set out a range of initiatives for developing advocacy services. I link advocacy with children's rights, and the role of the Commissioner might be able to help promote that. That might be done by undertaking education initiatives or by encouraging the boards to take action. I am not aware of any children's rights officers in the social services sector. I cannot speak for the justice system. The area has not been developed, and we know from our experience with young people in care that they do not have a good understanding of their advocacy rights.

943.

Mrs Lewis: I should like to echo that. We know from enquiries we receive from carers, who will telephone us on behalf a child, that they do not know their rights. For example, many children in care have special educational needs, but that area is a minefield to negotiate. Care can be seen as an opportunity to repair some of the damage done to the children. However, it is still very difficult for them to know their rights - what they can expect and what they will get. The Commissioner would have a valuable role in overseeing that area. He would not necessarily take action but should look into the issue. It is important that such work be carried out independently of the childcare system.

944.

Ms Lyner: The same issue is reflected in the justice system. We are involved in running an independent representation project for young people aiming to raise certain areas of concern for them. The issues they raise concern them in their daily lives. It would be appropriate for the Commissioner to take on board issues about broader rights and access to more general services.

945.

Dr Pinkerton: With regard to the awareness of rights, someone made the point that the Commissioner must be able to engage with children. Anyone who is a parent or has dealt with other people's children will be very aware of how important it is to children that things are fair. Children have a very keen sense of what is fair and unfair, and that is the rights language appropriate in that context. That can be developed into the more administrative and legalistic rights that we increasingly find ourselves dealing with every day.

946.

Mrs Courtney: We met a group of young people in Derry when the Committee was collecting evidence. They were very forthright, but it was obvious that they had very little knowledge of their rights, and that is something all bodies must take on board, regardless of whether a Commissioner is appointed. Some of the young people we spoke to were aged 22, so they are going through life without knowing their rights.

947.

I wish to discuss fostering, the main service provided by the trust to meet the needs of children being looked after. Should the remit of the Children's Commissioner be extended to cover groups such as foster parents?

948.

Mrs Lewis: As I said, it is the balance that counts. Sometimes when we think about children's rights we think of children referring directly to themselves or talking to people. Sometimes that will be the case, but very often access in ensuring children's rights will be via carers. I feel the Commissioner should have a role with foster carers and other parents to talk about rights and responsibilities, finding a balance between the two.

949.

Dr Pinkerton's point about children wanting to know that things are fair very much applies to those in foster care, who often feel that they have had an unfair deal. Sometimes they are not able to make direct representations, and that is where carers and other advocates are important.

950.

Mrs Courtney: Should the Commissioner have a role in talking directly to the foster parents involved if he feels the child is unhappy?

951.

Mrs Lewis: Yes. I feel there should be a direct role. I know that in an earlier submission Child Care Northern Ireland spoke about the Commissioner having an opportunity to go in unannounced to places where children are in care. We have discussed that with some of our carers, and I feel it should happen, but the Commissioner would need to balance that with the fact that foster care is a home activity. It is carried out in people's own dwellings, making it slightly different from residential care. It would need to be done with a certain amount of discretion, but there should be an opportunity to scrutinise what happens in fostering as well as in residential care or other secure accommodation.

952.

The Chairperson: If the Commissioner were prepared to do that, there could be an infringement of human rights.

953.

Mrs Lewis: That is exactly it. I feel it is one of the balancing acts, and I have tried to draw that out. It is a balance of the rights of children in care and those of foster carers and their families, including their birth children. It is not as simplistic as it seems on the surface.

954.

Mrs Cunningham: It would be a waste of the Commissioner's time if he duplicated existing inspection and registration activities, so it would only be in exceptional circumstances. As we said in earlier submissions, we hope the Commissioner would use whatever statutory resources are available in the first instance, only intervening in exceptional circumstances when those have failed children.

955.

Ms Lyner: The point about duplication is valid. We need a Commissioner responsible for the co-ordination of transparent and open investigation. I assume that the Commissioner would know about all investigations going on in relation to childcare issues. Even if one or two had similar themes that could be connected, that is not practice at the moment, which is wasteful. It is an opportunity to maximise the lessons from investigations to ensure they work well concurrently.

956.

Mr McCrea: Perhaps I might add that the issue of awareness is that the Commissioner and we must use the channels to which children and young people have access. That should be how we do it. Some of that could be done through foster carers, television and other media.

957.

Mrs Bell: Welcome. You have touched on the point I wished to bring up. I have a general and a more specific point. You all mentioned the Commissioner's independence and how he must co-ordinate matters to avoid duplication. If possible, he must oversee work and ensure that there is collaboration. The one thing that we have found in these consultation exercises is that there is a danger that we shall make the person do everything.

958.

If he is to be effective, we must be very careful it does not happen. There must therefore be somewhere we work together. Everyone acknowledges there has been such a lack of co-ordination and joined-up government that children have been harmed. To what extent should that be part of the Commissioner's remit? Is it an umbrella position to oversee, or does the Commissioner get involved in making or directing policy? It is a big question.

959.

The second question is more specific and dearer to my heart, and I must declare an interest. I am a member of the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, and I have also worked with prisoners' children for some years. I would be particularly interested, for I know about their situation on the ground.

960.

The report we heard about stressed positive factors that can reduce the likelihood of offending, such as providing lessons in developing the support of the families and children of prisoners. I myself have come across that. If they are dealt with properly there is less risk. How big a role should the Commissioner play in that?

961.

Mrs Cunningham: You are correct in that there is a real risk that we - and perhaps more especially Government Departments and the Assembly - might see the Commissioner as solving all our problems in relation to providing services for all children. If that is the case, we are setting the person up to fail from the word go.

962.

We certainly would not see the Commissioner as in any way replacing the Assembly's responsibility regarding all Northern Ireland's children. When the First Minister made the announcement in principle to establish a Commissioner for Children, we very much welcomed the fact that it was part of a much wider children's strategy. We would not see the development of that strategy as the responsibility of the Commissioner but of the Assembly, and our sector would very much welcome the opportunity to do anything it could to assist in that process.

963.

Were an integrated strategy developed to which Government Departments signed up, the Commissioner would have a role in holding Government Departments and - with respect - the Assembly responsible for ensuring it actually cascaded down to make a difference to children's lives on the ground.

964.

Mrs E Bell: That would be our job.

965.

Ms Lyner: I raised the issue of the conviction rate and what happens to the children of individuals who have been through the criminal justice process. I am identifying for you the fact that, if we do not intervene in the lives of children of prisoners, we are likely to meet those children in the system at a later stage.

966.

We must first try to get that message out so there is recognition of the vulnerability of the client group, afterwards trying to persuade those in the children's services' planning process and those in a position to deliver services that it is a priority group. We have had great difficulty getting that message across. We hope that the document and our work with the Committee will spread that point.

967.

We are not asking for unique or dedicated services at this stage. We ask for recognition that the client group is unique. It must be given due access to services and priority within service provision, and the Commissioner could play a role on that. We are making a case for only one client group. Others will make a case for other groups, but the group is forgotten in our society at the moment, and as a consequence of the research we know they will become disadvantaged in later life. We should be putting resources into intervention and prevention at an early stage, something I see as a critical role for the Commissioner.

968.

Mr Shannon: I apologise for not getting the opportunity to hear all of your presentation. I have one or two questions specific to foster care. First I shall make a statement: I am a great believer that the family is a core part of any stable relationship in society. One issue concerns the National Foster Care Association's quite dramatic and worrying figures for children in UK public care. I do not know how specific they are to Northern Ireland. I believe that many foster parents who care for children do a grand job; those whom I know certainly do so, and I pay credit to them. Children from that type of relationship have much to contribute to society, something I am not sure the figures really reflect. How do you see the role of the Children's Commissioner in helping to address the figures?

969.

I have a specific question about the role of the Children's Commissioner in helping those children who have been in foster homes for a number of years and are then returned to their natural parents. Some of my discussions with foster parents have shown that they can find it difficult to return a child to his natural parents after five - or in some cases 10 - years of fostering, when a relationship has been built between a child and the foster parent. That is not specific to every case; is it always right to return a child to his natural parents when the natural parents may not be ready to get the child back? Do you see a role for the Children's Commissioner in dealing with that?

970.

Mrs Lewis: You acknowledged the figures we supplied, and they are indeed dramatic and - I would also add - almost depressing; when children are removed from their birth parents, does the state do any better? Those are English figures, but we have no doubt that there is not much difference in the situation in Northern Ireland. Children who are removed from their parents and come in to public care - for a host of reasons which would take too long to explain - have vulnerabilities and difficulties. Sometimes we do a good job, and both foster parents and residential care do a good job with some of those children; unfortunately we fail others.

971.

One of the Commissioner's roles would be to provide oversight on that and ask the boards, trusts and Department how well they were doing and what else they could do. Additional resources must be made available. We know how difficult it is to get specialised services such as psychiatry, psychological help and additional educational supports in Northern Ireland for children with difficulties - and other submissions made to the Health Committee have confirmed that. The Commissioner could ask searching questions about those things, not get involved directly, but have a "helicopter view" and say what is happening, for certain foster care issues are also issues for parents, other carers and children in the community.

972.

You referred to children returning to birth parents. Most of you will know that, while adoption involves a permanent replacement family, children can go in and out of foster care. Indeed, quite a number of children return home after a brief period in foster care, although increasing numbers are staying anything up to five, 10 or 15 years with foster carers. A balance must be struck on how you can care for a child, after which he returns home. In some situations the best solution for the child is to return home, but on other occasions the best solution may well be that the child remains with foster carers, and that may also be his wish.

973.

The Children's Commissioner could have a specific role, perhaps in a particular case, where foster carers or the child did not wish the return to the birth parents and were having difficulties finding their way through the system. The answer is that it very much depends on circumstances; it is certainly a difficult issue.

974.

Dr Pinkerton: On the point about success, through working with young people leaving care we are conscious of how extraordinarily well they do. There is a tendency for our organisation and other people to present young people as victims or villains. As we said in our written submission, we feel there is a role for the Commissioner in celebrating the progress being made, the competence the children have and the success stories coming out of foster care. It is important we do not lose sight of that aspect of the Commissioner's role.

975.

Mr McMenamin: I shall start by saying that I agree that the Commissioner should have a wide remit. The figures mentioned by Mr Shannon are most alarming. Society has without doubt failed these children - and also their parents, when you consider that the generation of 16- to 24-year-olds has evolved from relationships in the 1970s. We should have a programme for young parents too, for ultimately we must get to the core of the problem. In essence, the problem is coming from the parents. Should the remit of the Children's Commissioner extend beyond children to cover such groups as foster parents?

976.

Mrs Cunningham: Our view is that the Children's Commissioner should focus exclusively on children as defined in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, namely, all those under the age of 18. We hope part of their remit would be the promotion of a culture of children's rights and a strong sense of fairness. Many of the people who advocate on behalf of children to try to ensure they are treated fairly in the first instance are their parents. There are obviously connections between parents and the Commissioner, and it would be important that the Commissioner remains in contact with parents. We believe the family is the cornerstone of every child's life. With regard to representing foster carers or parents, our view is that the Commissioner's role should be specifically dedicated to children.

977.

Mr McCrea: When we talk about young people and parents, one in five young women coming out of care aged 16 to 18 will be pregnant within six months - an alarming statistic. When we talk about parents and children we mean the same age group; there is an alarming number of teenage pregnancies, so in a way we are talking about both.

978.

Ms Lyner: With regard to young offenders and those under the age of 21 given community sentences, 71% will have fathered one child and 42% will have fathered two or more. We are talking about young people with children. By the age of 23, 62% of those young men will have lost contact with their offspring.

979.

Mr K Robinson: I shall be brief, for Mr Shannon touched the core of what I wanted to say. Returning to the figures, which are very depressing, when you talk about children being in public care, is that residential care, foster care or an amalgam?

980.

Mrs Cunningham: An amalgam, plus care in the home.

981.

Mr K Robinson: That makes it even more depressing. Ms Lyner mentioned perhaps moving the age of responsibility upwards. There is a very strong body of opinion - and I heard this in one of the estates in my constituency this morning - that it should go downwards. In fact, some would take it right down to birth if they could.

982.

Is there a new and growing gap in understanding between the older and younger generations? Is society recreating much of the difficulty resulting in a class of children almost destined to fail? They are destined to educational and social failure, and they will recreate it in another generation. How would your organisations seek to break that web and break that cycle? How would the Commissioner intervene?

983.

I was a little concerned about the foster carer being monitored in their own home, with more rights identified for the children. I am concerned that the loving parents who wish to open their homes to a child in need would look at the situation and say that the game is not worth the candle - they might feel there is too much officialdom or too much intrusion on their own families. It is very hard to get the correct balance between the rights of the birth child and those of the foster child; they might all lose in that situation. How could the Commissioner proactively and constructively help in those situations? I shall return to the age of responsibility later if I may.

984.

Ms Lyner: The criminal age of responsibility is 10, and there is a suggestion that it should be 14. NIACRO is concerned with what works best. There is a concern that people are not behaving as they should. We must decide the best method of intervention for those young people. Is it criminalising them at the age of 10 and putting them into processes that fail to make their behaviour positive? We have a range of other intervention methods that apply to children aged up to 14. We are concerned with what works. We wish to reach a situation where active members of society put in positive messages as opposed to -

985.

Mr K Robinson: Children know their rights. They know a policeman or a teacher in the playground cannot touch them. As a result, the structures of society are breaking down earlier and earlier, and more people are entering that category where we do not wish them. Those concerns are being expressed to me. Those children know they are doing wrong, yet authority figures of the past have had to tiptoe back to such an extent that they do even greater wrong until there is no option for them but to face the criminal justice system. Could many of those children not be cut out of the system at an earlier stage if the age of responsibility were reduced?

986.

Ms Lyner: We might drag them into the system if we did that.

987.

Mr K Robinson: If there were mechanisms other than the criminal justice -

988.

Ms Lyner: We should use the other mechanisms. We should have the resources to intervene with those young people. They can be identified, but we cannot get the resourcing or the networks to intervene. That is what matters. The age is important, but it is critical we focus on the individual.

989.

Mr K Robinson: We must revisit that issue and keep them out of the criminal justice system as much as possible. However, there must be responsibility and very young children, amongst their rights, will have that.

990.

Mrs Cunningham: You are correct to mention children who are destined to fail. Each of our organisations knows that there are children born in Northern Ireland who are destined to fail. It is a sad indictment of our society, and that is why we are saying that the Commissioner, together with the strategy, should be addressing the needs of all Northern Ireland's children. We should have a vision of what they should achieve in education and in standards of health and hope that they make a positive contribution to society.

991.

For some children to do that, they will need additional support from birth. If we are able to obtain the resources - and it would mean freeing them - there is less likelihood that those young children would be destined to fail.

992.

Children in the nought to three age group are disadvantaged in the most deprived areas of Northern Ireland, even with regard to their readiness for school.

993.

If we already know at ages nought to three that those children are not ready for school, they must be becoming disenfranchised from it at a very early stage. You are right that we have reports of children excluded from nursery school. Resources must be put in to support parents when children are aged nought to three. The challenge of parenting is considerable for us all.

994.

Mr K Robinson: I wish to pick up the point about resources. You quoted some statistics; is there an inference that we would get better value for money from foster care rather than formalised residential care?

995.

I would not feel competent to comment on that. You are examining the care continuum in relation to children in public care. Foster care is appropriate for some children and residential care for others.

996.

Mrs Lewis: I wish to pick up on that. Even we in NIFCA say that one needs a variety of placements to meet children's needs. We do not have that at the moment. For children who cannot live at home, we must have a variety of options. Sadly, no matter what supports and so on there are, there will always be some children who cannot live with their birth parents for a variety of reasons. For some children, residential care will be the preferred option, but for the vast majority it will continue to be a family placement, whether by adoption or by foster care.

997.

I want to pick up on the point about too much officialdom, which is a real issue. We are talking about children being placed in people's homes, for foster care is home-based. The changes in legislation with the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 and standards in foster care have added to the burden for carers in having to complete paperwork and attend reviews much more often than in the past. While they have all been valuable pieces of legislation - we certainly should not want to go back on those - a balance must be struck. I should not like to see the Children's Commissioner being yet another official fiefdom or bureaucracy. That is why we have urged that the role of the Children's Commissioner should be about oversight, having a "helicopter view" of services and intervening only where all other mechanisms have failed. Others may also have made that point.

998.

The Chairperson: Do you still have a shortage of foster carers?

999.

Mrs Lewis: There is still a huge shortage. There is a shortage in provision for children in public care, in foster care and residential care. We do not have choices, and some carers do too much. That almost becomes an abuse of their rights and those of their children. We must have additional resources and make sure they are properly targeted.

1000.

Dr Pinkerton: I wish to take that "helicopter view" further and apply it to your question on research and information. All our organisations are increasingly recognising the impact that good research and information can have. We are conscious that, when we are examining leaving care, we only see a part of the whole. You can have a very distorted picture. It is a classic "cannot see the woods for the trees" situation. It is important that someone sees what the various parts look like together and that the Commissioner has an overview of all children.

1001.

There is an argument about whether children are more estranged from adults and things are falling apart in front of us compared to 20, 30 or 40 years ago. The Commissioner has a role to help us in that debate and, at a specific level, say that our work on care-leavers and the lack of educational gains they are making must be seen in the wider context of other educational disadvantage.

1002.

Mr Beggs: Thank you for coming today. I welcome your view that the Commissioner should have an oversight role. Occasionally, some people thought that the Commissioner should be involved in everything. You are taking a very realistic approach, and I am supportive. The figures you have given us show the importance of intervening at an early stage so we do not have the lower educational attainment shown here and the subsequent increased risk of antisocial activity.

1003.

Returning to the figures, are statistics available, for instance, on the split between foster and residential care? Do you feel it would be for a Commissioner to identify whether the family-home sector of foster care has been more successful than the formal structure of a state institution? Are such statistics already available, or are those the sorts of statistics that must be drawn out since a system to identify that need is currently missing?

1004.

On the oversight role of the Commissioner, you said that he should be identifying where there are failings, drawing attention to them, for example, in the social work or the education system. Should the role of the Commissioner also include being consulted on, and having an input to, our education and health systems in relation not only to the rights of children but also the responsibilities of their parents and them, which should be taught alongside? I feel that is a failing in the current system. The responsibility aspects should be promoted as being equally important. I should welcome your comments.

1005.

Dr Pinkerton: Very little information is available. However, that is precisely the role of the Commissioner - to spot where there are absences. For example, if he were sitting down to do an annual report, the missing areas would be easily identifiable. It would be very helpful to have them recognised. It would also be helpful if the Commissioner were to have the capacity to undertake specific pieces of work. The problem is that you do not want him to get bogged down in that or any other area.

1006.

Mr Beggs: Do you see the role as simply being to identify the need for more research in a particular area? The Commissioner could then pass it on to the education system or to the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency. When the information came back, action could be considered. Would that be the key central oversight role?

1007.

Mrs Cunningham: Yes, but I also feel the Commissioner would have a key role in ensuring that something practical came of that. We are quite good at the identification of research, information and services, but we struggle to learn the lessons from that information and put those lessons into practice.

1008.

Mr Beggs: How do you see the Commissioner ensuring that happens?

1009.

Mrs Cunningham: The UN Convention states that children have a right to education, for example. If there were children in the public- or in the home-care system not being afforded the opportunity to receive an education - even if it had to be outside the normal school system - the Commissioner would have a role in advising the education and library boards of their legal responsibilities. He should then ensure it happened.

1010.

Mr McCrea: You mentioned responsibilities. Perhaps I could give an example. On the care side, we must ensure that young people between the ages of 16 and 18 get the right sort of information to prepare them for leaving. That is a much younger age than that at which most of us would have had to consider such issues. They must be aware of their rights and entitlements to support and services. They must also know about the responsibilities involved with a tenancy, be it with the Housing Executive or another provider. We must empower young people by providing the skills they need for later life to enable them to cope on their own - or "interdependently", as we should prefer to put it. It is in that context that I see responsibility. The Commissioner must ensure the provision of information not only on rights, entitlements and what is fair, but also on the responsibilities that go with these more adult activities.

1011.

Mrs Lewis: You were wondering about the "knit up" between education and social services. There is already a process - others have referred to the children's services planning that goes on in the boards - but those of us who sit on the various children's services planning groups realise there can sometimes be gaps among the trusts, the boards and the Department. We welcome the children's strategy, and we look forward to hearing what it has to say. I feel the Children's Commissioner could have a specific role in calling for reports and asking searching questions. Indeed, we ask such questions ourselves. If there is co-operation between the health and social services, why is it sometimes still so difficult to get children into either residential or foster care and provide them with the type of educational provision they need. We are grappling with those problems on the ground, but there must be someone who can ask the questions and get answers.

1012.

Mr Gibson: Thank you very much for the preparation of these documents. I have listened very carefully to what you have said this afternoon. Your documents state that children in foster care are 10 times more likely to fail, 10 times more likely to attend specialist schools, and four times less likely to enter further education. They are 16 times more likely to become homeless, 50 times more likely to be sent to prison and 88 times more likely to be drug users.

1013.

You are telling us that we are failing the system and have said that a variety of provisions is needed but is not available. It was asked what works. We examined the rate of convictions - 63% and 93% respectively. In advocating a Commissioner for Children, you are really asking for more of the same, for the present system is not working.

1014.

There is a lack of co-operation between existing Departments, yet we are saying we need a Commissioner for Children. Does that mean that the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 is not working well? What is the dilemma? Are you really saying to us that the only hope we have is a Commissioner for Children?

1015.

Mrs Cunningham: The detail you have identified is actually the reason why we advocate a Commissioner for Children. There is the legislation, and everyone in this room is very supportive of the Order, which is at the centre of all our planning.

1016.

Mr Gibson: Perhaps I might reverse that question. Where is the evidence elsewhere in the world that a Commissioner for Children has really improved the lot of children?

1017.

Mrs Cunningham: There is evidence from elsewhere. The Committee will hear the evidence from the Norwegian commission. It has the first Children's Commissioner, established in 1982, and is the longest running office. It has taken other countries a while to catch up, but it is too early at this stage to say what the impact of the Welsh Commissioner and others will be.

1018.

Mr Gibson: I shall question that. I have looked at the Norwegian figures, and I would not go around making too many assertions about their success.

1019.

Mrs Cunningham: You are absolutely right. The Children's Commissioner alone is not going to resolve all the challenges that our society faces in relation to failing children.

1020.

Mr Gibson: Have we honestly thought about the real point of a Commissioner for Children? Look at the legislation. Every Department reshuffled its whole thinking to try to implement the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. Let us look at what we are attempting. There is almost an upheaval of desperation. Are we merely clutching at straws?

1021.

Mrs Cunningham: That is an extremely valid question, for we can get tied up in the notion of the "emperor's new clothes" when we move forward thinking it is a wonderful thing. In response to your question, however, we have thought it through.

1022.

Our children's sector has been working on a Commissioner for Children for about two years, so we have thought it through properly. We are working operationally, day to day, with children whom the current system is failing - despite the legislation. A number of us sit on the all-party group. We had a presentation this morning from the Western Children and Young People's Committee and the Southern Children and Young People's Committee about an integrated strategic planning framework already in place - multi-agency and multidisciplinary in each of the four board areas. Above that, it is not working.

1023.

Mr Gibson: I remember taking evidence in 1997 in the Northern Ireland Forum, and I heard exactly the same story about a multi-agency approach. We are now four years on - surely we are not still beating the same drum?

1024.

Dr Pinkerton: It is not the final solution, and everyone has made that clear. It is a critical component within the system, continuing to address issues we are becoming clearer about. Let us face it - if it was straightforward and easy, we should have it sorted; it is not, and we all know that. It is an additional critical component and it will also be an expression of the advances we have been making. The Commissioner is not just about naming and blaming, though it has that element. It is also about claiming and celebrating the advances that have been made. Even the appointment of a Commissioner will be an indication of the distance we have moved and that which we are likely to move in the future. It is no accident that the Nordic countries, with their reputation for good childcare services, are the ones who had it first.

1025.

The Chairperson: Thank you all for your responses. You have brought us to the crux of what we need in a Commissioner for Children, for 90% of the Children's Commissioner's work will be involved with what you have been talking about today - and many of the children.

1026.

The figures you quoted are quite astonishing. What makes it more depressing is when you hear how many children are being born to children who end up in that system five or six years down the line. It is almost as if we are in a vicious circle, and we must break out to give the children a better opportunity in life. Jim Shannon was correct in stating the good work that foster carers have been doing. I know there is a great need for more foster carers. Perhaps, if we did have more good quality foster carers, the statistics would improve. As politicians we regularly get homeless people in our offices. Very often those young people have come from an unstable family background and end up in hostels, knocked from pillar to post. When they come out into society it is little wonder that they end up as statistics like those. I thank you all very much for your evidence.

1027.

Mrs Cunningham: Our colleague from VOYPIC has now joined us. She was to give evidence in this first session. Could you allow her to give evidence in the next?

1028.

Mr Gibson: I have been doing some research on this, but I should like to see comparative figures for the Scandinavian countries, other European countries and indeed other countries. Has there been any comparative study? I have got what I call "varnished research" from people who simply hail what they think good and debunk what they think bad. I am really looking for statistical proof and a more objective analysis of what works in various places. The reason I ask this is that I am getting suspicious of the alleged claims of Scandinavia, having come across other research. If someone knows of some research, I should welcome that.

1029.

Mrs Cunningham: I am sure you will take the opportunity to ask the Norwegian ombudsman specifically about life chances. We shall endeavour to come back to you with some unvarnished information.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 2 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots(Chairperson) Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs E Bell
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms K Collins ) VOYPIC
Ms G Donnelly ) EXTERN
Mrs P Jaffa OBE ) Parents' Advice Centre
Ms M Cavanagh ) Gingerbread
Mrs M Cunningham ) Child Care Northern Ireland

1030.

The Chairperson: I welcome you on behalf of the Committee and ask you to introduce yourselves. We will ask questions when we have heard your presentations.

1031.

Mrs Cunningham: Gemma Donnelly is from EXTERN, which is an organisation that deals with offenders. She is going to focus on juvenile justice. Pip Jaffa is chief executive of the Parents' Advice Centre and will address some issues in relation to parents. Kelly Collins is from Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC). She will look specifically at care from a young person's perspective. Marie Cavanagh is director of Gingerbread, the organisation for lone parents.

1032.

Ms Donnelly: EXTERN's work is primarily concerned with the reduction of social exclusion. We aim to achieve this through working directly with and for marginalised and excluded people - children and adults alike. We are a service provider, and the views that I project today are from that perspective. We are currently delivering several preventative community-based programmes to children, adolescents, adults and communities.

1033.

EXTERN is sensitive to the fact that juvenile crime and anti-social behaviour are of major public concern. Our aim is to make the community safer, to reduce the incidence of criminal and anti-social behaviour by young people, to enhance victim empathy and to acknowledge and support community self-help initiatives and statutory responses.

1034.

We support the view presented by the 'Putting Children First' project that the Commissioner must remain independent of Government but maintain close and effective working relationships with all Government Departments.

1035.

We have two general main points. First, children are children first and offenders second. Secondly, children who offend do not do so in isolation. There is a clear recognition that anti-social behaviour among young people owes more to a serious lack of social amenities and social forums, other than street corners. This is widely accepted. Therefore, given that the levels of anti-social behaviour have not decreased and that with the introduction of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 more young people were diverted into community and voluntary based provision, EXTERN believes that the Commissioner for Children must also take account of the complexities of relevant social, educational and cultural issues. We believe that the Commissioner should have a role in strategic planning and work closely with Children's Services Planning groups across Northern Ireland. The Commissioner's remit should include an overarching, Province-wide audit of the current community-based preventative initiatives and the statutory responses to juvenile offending. The audit should be carried out with the aim of identifying and assessing each response, with the emphasis on assessment. It should identify where services are duplicated, where there are gaps in services, where we might be missing something crucial and gaps in our knowledge about the young people who need services but who have fallen through the net of the voluntary and statutory agencies.

1036.

Following the audit, the role of the Children's Commissioner should be to champion the establishment of a multi-agency, multi-disciplinary approach to addressing issues for young offenders and the community. The audit will also enable the Commissioner to lobby for funds for under-resourced community-based initiatives such as alternative education projects, mentoring projects and support services and statutory agencies.

1037.

EXTERN believes that, based on the proven success of working in partnership with statutory agencies in the provision of such community-based programmes, the Children's Commissioner should be at the forefront of promoting a co-ordinated response. The Commissioner should act as an advisor to the Government in the strategic planning of children's services Province-wide.

1038.

We welcome the view expressed by the Northern Ireland Office in the inquiry into residential and secure accommodation for children that a distinct, specialised, residential provision is needed to meet the needs of those young people who, until the introduction of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998, would have been in custody but who are now accommodated in care settings and in the community. EXTERN supports the view that this is resulting in social services and voluntary agencies like ourselves coming under increasing pressure to stretch already limited resources.

1039.

In research carried out late last year, which examined the profile of young people using our services, we established that 30% of the young people who are referred to our youth support and emergency time-out programmes had been referred specifically for offending behaviour. It is also significant that those young people collectively used 58% of the services.

1040.

EXTERN, in partnership with the Northern Health and Social Services Board, has sought to implement the recommendations in the Assembly report to address this issue. We have recently opened a specialised unit in Newtownabbey, the Linden Services for Children. A Children's Commissioner should have a role in advising and lobbying the Government on strategic financial planning and ring-fencing moneys to ensure that the views expressed in the Assembly report are brought to fruition throughout Northern Ireland and not just in Newtownabbey.

1041.

We also think that a Children's Commissioner should be the driving force behind commissioning research into effective forms of practice to reduce the factors that lead to offending behaviour and criminal activity. When research indicates positive outcomes, the Commissioner's role should be to lobby Government support for introducing and resourcing those models.

1042.

In the international arena, the research evidence of the models used in the "Wrap-around" programme in the United States and the multi-systemic therapeutic approach used in Norway has prompted EXTERN to reproduce the models for the first time in Northern Ireland, in the Linden Services in Newtownabbey.

1043.

The Children's Commissioner should have a monitoring and advocacy role. EXTERN believes that there is a group of young people who have been labelled offenders, but whose offences are a direct result of abuse, neglect, ill health or inappropriate care placements. For example, child prostitutes, children suffering from attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) or other forms of behavioural disorders, children who are homeless and children who are placed into large residential units who are simply emotionally immature and unable to cope in such a setting.

1044.

The Commissioner should commission a Province- wide audit to ascertain the numbers in this group and the nature of their circumstances. The Commissioner should be instrumental in spearheading a hearts and minds campaign in both the Government and public perceptions to redefine the label for this group of children and influence the Government to provide alternative means of addressing the issues.

1045.

Finally, a Children's Commissioner should have the remit of monitoring and evaluating the effectiveness of any work that is being done with young people in custody. To this end EXTERN would support the view that the Commissioner should have direct unannounced access to young people in detention.

1046.

Mrs Jaffa: The Parents' Advice Centre has been operating in Northern Ireland since 1979, and we deliver support and guidance for parents throughout the Province through a helpline and an appointment system. In addition to the core work, we have three projects: the parenting forum, which is a network of parents' support in Northern Ireland; the men's project which is an innovative project to look at what is happening to men; and a parenting education programme, which does just that.

1047.

While recognising that the primary function of the Commissioner is to be an independent champion for children, the Parents' Advice Centre (PAC) emphasises the importance of establishing an holistic approach towards children's issues.

1048.

The welfare of children is inextricably linked to the parenting and care that the child receives. It is important to emphasise that families are now under more strain than ever. Parenting needs a higher profile if we are to support families effectively and give children the best chance of reaching their potential. We strongly feel that monitoring, investigating and advocacy on behalf of children by the Commissioner should have a parent dimension to it. When problems arise recurrent practice shows that responses to a child's difficulties are made in a pigeonhole way. While it seems that some services work in collaboration, parents continue to refer to experiences which show that integrated working is not universally in operation. At best this leaves parents confused; at other times it leaves them angry and frustrated. Inevitably this impacts adversely on the child.

1049.

A previous reference was made to children who are destined to fail. There are repeated examples of children who are in difficulties being seen at an early stage by one profession, unit or service and then reappearing at another service with increased difficulties a few years later. They then appear in the juvenile justice system in their teenage years. Having integrated services is fundamental.

1050.

Currently the range of services which deliver parenting support is extremely limited and choice and accessibility are restricted. Much of the support work and parenting programmes are provided by the voluntary and community sector, and their ability to sustain services is entirely dependent on funding. The uncertainties of finance make planning, even in the short term, problematic. Parenting programmes are limited with a small range of choice, and they are almost exclusive to mothers. There are a couple of programmes which are studying a father's role. There is only anecdotal evidence about how to engage with fathers. There is no statutory structure geared to work with them as parents.

1051.

This is a huge area which needs to be addressed even on an equality basis. If we are to make meaningful improvements to children's lives, models of good practice, of which there are many, should be available to all parents to enable them to enhance their skills and effectiveness. There is plenty of evidence to show that parents who feel more confident about their parenting and have increased self-esteem are inevitably able to function better and give children a better family life. The issues facing parents are very plain to see. Parents would like services to help them with poverty, and there is a lack of support for child management, discipline, separation and divorce. Help is not available to meet the needs of all parents. There is lack of affordable child care and a lack of information about support services. Even in small communities there is no system to enable parents to find out what services are available to them.

1052.

Parents are unclear about processes and systems. If anything ever marginalised parents, it is the difficulty of their knowing what to expect, for example, at a case conference. That disempowers and deskills them and that is unproductive when trying to sustain and promote family life.

1053.

There is definitely a lack of recognition of the importance of the parents' role. They feel unable to influence the system which affects schools. Some work is being done in child care partnerships on parent representation, but there needs to be a recognition of need for training and support for parents if they are to influence the services which should be available to families.

1054.

There is a myriad of examples of parents who feel that they are not being given their place when it comes to authority figures and personnel, particularly in health and education. These key issues which affect parents adversely influence the children. A Commissioner could make a difference by adhering to the principle that parents are an integral part of children's upbringing when he is carrying out any investigation or advocacy. We hope that the Commissioner will require structures to be in place to ensure that cross-cutting issues are addressed interdepartmentally and between children and adult services, which is lacking at present. The Commissioner could investigate how policies and practices can deliver integrated services for children. We also hope that he will be able to investigate the criteria that service providers use when allocating funds for intervention and prevention and the difficulties which arise from the lack of sustainable services, particularly in the voluntary and community sectors.

1055.

The balance between intervention and prevention needs to be redressed to ensure that we really make a difference. The level of support services available to all parents as a diverse group needs to be assessed and the expansion of services promoted where gaps have been identified. The boards and trusts need to take responsibility for ensuring that comprehensive and accessible information on the services is available to families.

1056.

Ms Collins: I represent Voices Of Young People In Care (VOYPIC). The charity is led by young people working throughout Northern Ireland with young people in care. The Committee has been given the figures for what is happening with young people in care and the possible outcomes. VOYPIC is an organisation which was set up and is led by young people in care. We provide ongoing support for them. We were established so that young people who have care experience, or who are in care, could have their voices heard. It was felt that these young people were not having their voices heard when other areas of the community were moving towards that way of working. The elderly and other groups were being asked what they thought of the services they were receiving rather than just having those services provided.

1057.

VOYPIC was set up in 1995 and is an expanding charity. We are a forum to which young people can come and be heard. The young people involved in VOYPIC are very excited about the prospect of a Children's Commissioner. They feel that the issues which will help young people in care will change the statistics. I heard earlier some concerns about the state of the child care. That is what we are hearing from young people too. The young people whom we are working with are part of these statistics. They have a lot to say about a Children's Commissioner. They have many thoughts and views on how they would like to work alongside him. They do not want to be told what to do. They want to work with the Commissioner and inform him. VOYPIC sees the young people with care experience as the experts. They have had the experience. They totally inform our organisation and are at its forefront.

1058.

Volunteers on our management committee lead the organisation. They tell us what is happening in care and feel strongly that they should have a role in working with the Commissioner. They promote advocacy for vulnerable young people who have been in care, making sure that their voices are heard. They want to ensure that young people's rights and welfare are protected and that any necessary investigations are independent.

1059.

Our steering group, and it is made up of young people directly involved, feels that a Children's Commissioner must be independent. He or she should be approachable and understand their problems. They want someone who will be independent of the Government but who will have the power to act.

1060.

There is a danger of seeing these young people merely as statistics. They may have been victims, but they do not want to remain victims. They join VOYPIC to do something about it and believe that a Children's Commissioner is a step in the right direction. In fact, the Children's Commissioner will find it difficult to get rid of them; they will be banging at the door.

1061.

Ms Cavanagh: My name is Marie Cavanagh, and I am director of Gingerbread. Gingerbread Northern Ireland is the lead agency working with lone parents and their children. Our organisation exists to promote and respect the integrity of the choices that lone parents make. We challenge injustice and advocate for lone parents and their children.

1062.

We are an independent organisation which belongs to lone parents. Gingerbread is made up solely of one-parent families who operate at every level in the organisation. We act as advocates for one-parent families, but we also operate a principle of self-help and mutual aid and organise appropriate user-led services.

1063.

What are one-parent families? They are parents with dependent children. They may be divorced, separated, widowed or single; they may have partners in long-term institutional care, including prison, or they may be single, pregnant women.

1064.

There are about 76,000 one-parent families in Northern Ireland with about 145,000 children. This is one in four children with families. Ninety-five percent of the families are headed by a mother; 5% are headed by a father; 30% are single parents; and 7% are under the age of 20, which means that some parents are children themselves. This matter in particular will be fundamental to the role of a Children's Commissioner.

1065.

Sixty-five percent of lone parents are either separated or divorced, and 5% are widowed. The figures show that the majority of lone parents are women. In Northern Ireland more lone parents are separated than divorced, and the figures show a considerable difference between Northern Ireland and Britain. This means that a common way out of lone parenthood, remarriage, is not available to lone parents here. Hence the children of one-parent families often remain in that state for a very long time. That is specific to Northern Ireland.

1066.

With no other significant adult in the family, children often find themselves undertaking a semi-caring role. Those children often look after younger siblings and, in some cases, become part of the decision-making process in the family - a position that they would not have until later in life if there were two parents. That has its advantages and disadvantages. In some instances it means that the children mature at an earlier age because of their responsibilities in the family, or in some instances it means that the pressure on the children is more significant than it should be at their age.

1067.

Following the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister's announcement about a Children's Commissioner, Gingerbread asked the young people in its organisation how they felt about it. I will outline some of the key issues, some of them in the words of the young people. Young people are forthright when they are asked for comments, and they are clear about what they want to say. Sometimes they are not clear, but they are usually forthright.

1068.

Young people are definite that the Commissioner should be independent and that he should not just be there to "rubber stamp" things. They see the role as something outside the Government, something that should be feeding in to the Government and not just "rubber stamping" what they say. They think that he should have experience of working with young people and not be somebody who just works in an office or is a civil servant. The Commissioner should know what is happening on the ground.

1069.

The children also think that the post should be filled through an independent process, that somebody should not just be picked for the position and that young people should be involved in choosing the person who will do the job. They feel very strongly about that.

1070.

They also think that he should be representative of children and young people. They want the position to be accessible and not just "somebody up there somewhere". They feel it important to have someone who will listen to what they have to say and do something about it. Also, questions and opportunities to feed in should take account of their time. All young people involved in the Gingerbread youth project are at school and that must be taken into account. They also do voluntary work in Gingerbread, and that has to fit in around their commitments to school, et cetera. They also want the Commissioner to have powers. The Commissioner for Children must have authority and power to investigate issues that are relevant to all children, not just children who have difficulties. He must also have the power to act on any findings.

1071.

Gingerbread's young people raised the issue of their rights, for example, in education. They want the Commissioner to be able to have an effect on that. They also mentioned their health rights and their rights to information on health. Very often they feel that they have not been heard. The children say that no matter what they say or where they say it, nobody takes any account of them. For example, schools just do what they want without listening to the pupils.

1072.

Young people in Gingerbread also say that the Commissioner must promote justice for children and young people. Gingerbread feels that children must have an effective voice in public and private law situations. For example, if a family relationship breaks down, the children are not heard or heard effectively.

1073.

One of the areas we have examined is the guardian ad litem system's, or some equivalent, being extended into private law. That would ensure that children were represented in cases of divorce and separation and were able to be heard. It is a fundamental belief of the young people of Gingerbread that the Commissioner should be there for all children, being particularly aware of those most in need or at risk of having their rights abused.

1074.

The young people talked about "kids without parents to speak for them" - young people in care who often feel they do not enjoy the same advantages as those with a parent to speak on their behalf, something presumably confirmed by their experience of those in that situation. The other area about which they are concerned is "kids who get into trouble" - children who need support after coming face to face with the juvenile justice system.

1075.

That is all I wish to say, apart from reiterating everyone's view that the Commissioner should have an overarching and overseeing role with teeth to act.

1076.

The Chairperson: We have heard that the Commissioner should be a champion, a whistleblower and a watchdog. For want of a better phrase, should the Commissioner also be a "headbanger"? Pip Jaffa referred to the problems identified when children come before one agency. A few years later, another agency will identify and examine a problem. Later the children appear before the justice system. Clearly agencies are examining issues without following them through or consulting sufficiently with the other bodies involved. Do we need a Commissioner who can get reports, identify the problems therein and tell the agencies what they must do and how they must operate and where they can find common ground?

1077.

Mrs Jaffa: There is a definite awareness of the importance of tracking progress and intervening early. The difficulty is that current practice does not yet reflect that. There have been repeated examples of children falling off the ends of various systems, and services such as health and education are aware of that. It would be too simplistic to say that they know about it and put it right, for the situation is much more complex.

1078.

For a start, we do not have accurate and detailed data about the children in question. It has been documented that one of the priorities of a Children's Commissioner should be to produce an annual report on the welfare of Northern Ireland's children. If accurate and realistic data from all the services were carefully collated and fed back, we should be better placed to make a good job of providing appropriate children's services rather than letting both them and their families fall through the net as at present.

1079.

The Chairperson: Would you conclude that the oft-used phrase "multi-agency approach" has not worked in practice?

1080.

Mrs Jaffa: That is a very sweeping generalisation. There are good examples of its working, but we do not see that everywhere. We must build on and share experience of good practice. Very often it is down to the personalities involved and personnel in place, who are absolutely committed to making it happen. It takes a great deal of energy, trust and sharing; it may take additional training. Services bound by different legislative requirements must have the mutual trust to work together for the good of the children. We must get that right; we know where we are going, but we have not yet got everything in place.

1081.

Mrs Cunningham: There are excellent examples of multi-agency work. The people involved are operational practitioners of good faith in all the services, statutory and voluntary, that are trying their best for the children. That sense of cohesion at departmental and Government level is missing, and it is difficult for practitioners to deliver a mult-agency agenda given the constraints of their own silos, whether they be health, social services, or education. I am aware of the presents difficulties, as I am involved in the planning process for children's services in three of the four board areas. We have found ourselves in a logjam in that while a lot of effort has gone into planning, we are at the stage where individual departmental agendas are making it difficult to deliver for children. The Commissioner would have limited capacity to do something about that on his or her own. However, the Commissioner could address those difficulties if an integrated children's strategy had been agreed by the Assembly.

1082.

Mr Gibson: I am unclear about what Ms Collins said. Rights might already be being denied by the lack of co-operation in our systems, and the old, almost dead country expression applies - "If you have a leaking roof, you do not hire someone to put a flag on the chimney. You repair the roof." Information to help children is there. Doctors have records, and statistics are issued monthly. It takes two years to get a psychologist to tend to a child. However, if I had 10 Commissioners in the morning, I could not get my hands on a psychologist. Multidisciplinary agencies are not working because of personalities - and in my business, I do not worry about personalities, I just change them - and you have made the point that nobody listens to those agencies. That means that a Commissioner should not be raised as a flag, because when things go wrong, the Commissioner carries the blame. We have to look honestly at our systems. I am concerned that a number of people work hard in the voluntary sector, but their work is being nullified, or almost side-tracked, because they have to take on the task that somebody else is failing to do. What could a Commissioner do to address that? His office and staff will cost £500,000, and funds for that will come out of other scarce resources.

1083.

Mrs Cunningham: You are right. You have raised a valid point, and we need to be sure that the Commissioner is the flag on the chimney that draws attention to the hole in the roof. A lot of statutory agencies and voluntary agencies were involved in the report 'Children Matter', identifying the gaps in the service and coming up with recommendations on how to fill those gaps. We identified the hole in the roof and the types of tiles needed to cover it. We know the people we need to repair the roof, but they are not doing it. Everybody signed up to the recommendations, but little has changed because of limited implementation. The role of the Commissioner would be to change that. Outside the Government somebody needs to say "Come on. You cannot have residential care without putting some money in place.".

1084.

There is not a single person in our sector or, indeed, in the statutory sector who has not signed up to Children Matter. Meanwhile, the young people who are involved with Voice Of Young People In Care, Ms Collins's organisation, are suffering in that system. Young people will have been very severely disadvantaged, and perhaps even abused, by a system whose problems and the solutions to them were identified four years ago. There has been no change.

1085.

Ms Collins: VOYPIC gets involved in children's matters. We consult young people who give clear views on problems and solutions. When that is drawn up as a document, they get excited about it and have faith in it. Young people think that residential care will change and shape up as a result.

1086.

If that does not happen, they will feel disappointed. They want a Children's Commissioner who they can ask why things have not been implemented and who will represent their views on how things are to change. We cannot involve young people and then not follow through on it.

1087.

Mr Gibson: Do we need a Children's Commissioner or a Children's Ombudsman?

1088.

Mrs Cunningham: The name does not really matter - in different countries, it is called different things. The role, responsibility, duties, powers and remit are important. " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." The most important thing is that the role addresses the issues that we have raised.

1089.

The Commissioner must have responsibility for all children and the clout to make a difference. If he does not make a difference, half a million pounds will be wasted. It is vital that the Commissioner or Ombudsman, whatever we decide to call the person or office, has responsibility for all children and the duties and powers necessary to enable him to make a difference.

1090.

Mr Beggs: Ms Donnelly identified poverty and a lack of facilities as two major causes of the problems. As someone who comes from a rural community and who knows many people who might be living in poverty, that is, to a certain extent, a complete oversimplification. Do you accept that there are many people who live in poverty and many people in rural communities with no facilities who do not have anti-social problems?

1091.

The root cause of any problem must be tackled. Should a Commissioner be able to go to the root cause of a problem rather than identify contributory factors and force all the statutory agencies along that line?

1092.

Several people have said that a Commissioner should have an advocacy role. Can you clarify the level of advocacy that the Commissioner should have to avoid getting drawn into details and missing the key role of overseeing and affecting policy and legislation? Under what circumstances should a Commissioner get involved in a detailed situation, if any? When would it be appropriate for a Commissioner to do that?

1093.

Ms Donnelly: It is an oversimplification to say that problems are caused by poverty. We are well aware that there are complex issues around young offenders. Sometimes it is about poverty; sometimes it is about other things. The role of a Commissioner, in some senses, would be to look at the causes of offending behaviour as well as at how to deal with it.

1094.

Mrs Cunningham: There is already a range of advocacy channels for a range of constituencies. One of the Commissioner's roles would be to direct children, young people and, perhaps, their parents to those existing channels. Part of the difficulty for people already working in the area is that they do not have the clout to make anything happen. If the existing channels were not successful and the children's and young persons' rights were continuing to be denied, the Commissioner would have a role then.

1095.

Mr K Robinson: Ms Donnelly, I would ask you about the EXTERN Organisation's approach. Will you explain to me the role of Linden Services for Children?

1096.

Ms Donnelly: It is a short-term residential unit in which we house a maximum of six to eight young people for up to 12 weeks. The unit has been set up to deal with and accommodate young people who have exhausted every avenue other than that of secure accommodation.

1097.

These young people bring a variety of problems with them, some specifically care issues, but the majority bring care and offending issues along. They are very damaged young people. Linden is set up to work in a multi-agency, multi-disciplinary fashion. Some people say that it does not work, but we are working that system at present. It would not work if it were not multi-disciplinary. We are working with the young people and their families. We have accommodation for families visiting so that the connection between a young person and his family is not lost. We have teachers, social and community workers and a multi-agency involvement.

1098.

Linden is the first of its type in Northern Ireland, based in Newtownabbey. We are using American research - what is called wrap-around programmes which use advocacy programmes, multi-systemic therapeutic input, which looks at every system involved in a child's life and pulls them together. That has happened because the Northern Health and Social Services Board appears to have decided to implement the recommendation in the Assembly's report on residential and secure accommodation for young people.

1099.

Mr K Robinson: Are we talking about children who have been damaged despite the safeguards in place to protect them and is Linden their last chance?

1100.

Ms Donnelly: These children are "high tariff" - a terrible label. Social services, juvenile justice agencies, child psychologists have all had an input but have not made a significant difference. It is only when all these agencies are pulled together to work for a child that we can achieve something.

1101.

Mr K Robinson: I am sorry to be so specific, but I can see the problem. That is at one end of the spectrum, and at the other end we have a very young, hyperactive child who is getting out of control, who comes from a nursery school or a school which is struggling to deal with, placate and educate him. We are building up a process of failure. Ms Collins made that clear when talking about the young people and children she is coping with. At each level we have identified successive, institutional failure. As you went on I could not decide whether the Commissioner should be Jim'll Fix It or Bob the Builder. We need now to have a structure in place under the Commissioner where we start to address yours and Mrs Jaffa's problems. I do not know what sort of person we are looking for - there is only one person in my mind who could fulfil those criteria. I had better not mention his name.

1102.

How do we get away from the diversity of structures and strategies and the multi-agency approaches and so forth; how do we ensure that a Commissioner can draw all those ideas together and make the fundamental change to these children's lives?

1103.

Mrs Cunningham: I do not think that that is the role of the Commissioner.

1104.

Mr K Robinson: You do not feel that?

1105.

Mrs Cunningham: Not at all. It is for the Government to devise a strategy for children in Northern Ireland that involves all the departments and all the elements that we have been talking about.

1106.

Mr K Robinson: You see the Commissioner only as an overseer to ensure fair play.

1107.

Mrs Cunningham: Absolutely.

1108.

Mr K Robinson: You talk about the Government doing this, but the Government is such an amorphous thing. It is like this Committee. We have 101 different views on things. How can the Government make a difference to those children?

1109.

Mrs Cunningham: Let me pick up on the point that you made about children being destined to fail. There needs to be a strategy for children. We must collectively give a commitment that we are not going to have children in Northern Ireland who are destined to fail. Each of us knows, both professionally and personally within our communities, children born to families that do not have the same life chances. We know from the minute those children are born that they do not have the same life chances.

1110.

I have read the Hansard record of the young people from the Western Education and Library Board who gave evidence to the Committee. They asked why it is that children who live on the Culmore Road are not as destined to fail as children in Shantallow? It cannot simply be because of their address. There needs to be a commitment at the highest level to ensure that no child sets out on a life path on which he is destined to fail at almost every stage.

1111.

Mr K Robinson: I am sorry to interrupt you again, but we are talking about aspirations here. What the Committee really wants to get to grips with is how to make these things happen, and I am not sure that we are doing that.

1112.

Mrs Cunningham: We need a commitment that addresses social exclusion of children and young people that every Government department signs up to and which requires them to look at their strategic plans to see what they can do. It might be a matter of rural children not having access to transport and being therefore excluded from particular activities. We know that research proves that children who are born poor have much poorer health in adult life than children who are not. How do we address that holistically and come up with a strategy that all Government departments have a sense of ownership of? Through the existing structures and with the right will and strategic direction at departmental and Government level, we could begin to address this.

1113.

The other issue that we need to tackle is that of the balance between prevention and intervention. When young people get to the stage where they are going to Linden, that is a very expensive remedial programme for them. All such young people are identified at a very early stage, and the resources to put in place the preventative services that are needed are not available.

1114.

When they get to the "pointy" end, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all are involved in working with them, while resources are not there to support parents to manage a young person's behaviour or to help communities ensure that their young people grow up being treated with respect and treating others with respect in return. Resources are focused at the pointy end and not at the preventative end.

1115.

Mr K Robinson: I take every point that you have made. I look at Ms Cavanagh's figures: 76,000 one-parent families struggling along, representing a quarter of our child population, a quarter of our total population. Are we not being totally overwhelmed already by the number of children who have come into the system and edged their way up through the league tables until they reach Ms Donnelly's situation?

1116.

Ms Cavanagh: Generally speaking, children who come through the lone-parent experience often have dilemmas at that point of crisis that they have to deal with. Traditionally, and as a result of research that has been done, it has been worked out that with the proper support services, and with prevention rather than intervention, within two years those children are just as every other child is. They have worked through the experience and have moved on. They have hit a plateau.

1117.

With prevention and with the support services that provide preventative rather than interventionist care there is a very good result. It is also, as Mary Cunningham said, a cheaper result, because the intervention element in any situation, including those involving children, is in the high tariff category of care.

1118.

Mr K Robinson: I am conscious that Mrs Jaffa has not had a direct question yet. The role of her organisation is central to this issue.

1119.

Mr Shannon: I have a question about the Children's Commissioner and the role that you play in the Parents' Advice Centre. How do you see the Children's Commissioner working with parents for the benefit of the children? Also, how do you envision the system working? I have another question, possibly for Gemma Donnelly. What would be the benefit of a Children's Commissioner having power to take legal action on behalf of a child or a group of children?

1120.

Mrs Jaffa: In general terms, this issue is about consulting with parents on themes, trends and gaps in the services that provide information. There are systems around that could do that, for example the Parenting Forum (NI). When I say that I would like a parent dimension to any investigation by the Commissioner, I mean that it should not just consider a child with special or individual needs or difficulties, but look at the family structure. That could tell the Commissioner about the practices, procedures or systems that are not in place.

1121.

We are well aware of the importance of not just looking at children on their own. As Kate Lewis said, there is a fine balance between saying that children's interests are of paramount importance and taking into account what is happening to a parent that has a direct impact on a child. It is about getting that tricky balance right. The Commissioner has to understand that these children have a family life and ask what is happening there.

1122.

This feeds back to the parenting programmes. What are the choices? Who are we engaging with? Typically, the parents who come forward for parenting programmes are those who put their hands up and ask for them. Parenting programmes are not engaging parents who are among the needy, who come from ethnic minorities or have learning difficulties. They are also not engaging rural communities. This is an area where the Commissioner could say "If you, as a board or a Department, are saying that you have a role in family support, let us see how you are investing uniformly in that throughout your board area."

1123.

Parenting programmes go back to some of the other issues that we talked about, such as the importance of prevention. If we can enable parents, the benefits are clear and well researched. However, somebody has to make a leap of faith and say "We are giving this amount of money to prevention, so that we have a medium and long-term benefit." A lot of the services are reactive, because they have limited resources. It comes back to resources and the strategic directions of the boards and Departments. It comes back to saying "How are we enabling parents?"

1124.

The investment is considerable, especially for young parents. One person on my staff has been working with a needy group of young mothers aged 16, 17 and 18 for six months. The movement is in millimetres. And that could be the situation in every town and village. The investment is huge. Although we do know how to do a lot of things, we have not enough resources and what we have is not being shared in all areas.

1125.

Mr Shannon: What would be the benefit of a Children's Commissioner having the power to take legal action on behalf of a child or a group of children?

1126.

Mrs Cunningham: Our view is that the Commissioner would be in that position by exception. There are already structures both to challenge existing law and to identify gaps in it. Only when those are exhausted would the Commissioner resort, in his own right, to taking legal action. If we saw that as a primary function, it would be an extremely costly and time- consuming process.

1127.

Only in situations where there was a benefit for all children or a point of principle was at stake that had not already been established would the Commissioner take legal action. I do not envisage his having a role in existing law to take cases because there are other agencies to do that.

1128.

Ms Cavanagh has identified a gap in support for children in private law cases. In the initial stage the Commissioner may well have a role in highlighting that gap and establishing it in principle. The guardian ad litem would either extend its remit to represent and advocate on behalf of children in private law cases or would look at establishing something similar.

1129.

The Chairperson: As a group, EXTERN said that it would prefer young people not to be put into juvenile justice centres; it would prefer to look at other systems. Do you recognise that the public wants protection from some of those young people, particularly the joyriders, 14 to 18-year olds, who are still classified as children or juveniles?

1130.

In one instance a judge allowed a joyrider off, without any sentence, who then went out and stole a car to go home. The destruction and damage that they do to the property is one issue, but there is also the damage that they are doing to other people's lives because of the accidents involved. One person is dead this week already. Do you accept that there must be something to protect the public from young people who insist on offending?

1131.

Ms Donnelly: We accept that absolutely. EXTERN does not have a problem accepting that there are some circumstances in which a community, and the young person himself, must be protected. There is only one system to deal with that. We would prefer to work with those young people -mostly young men - from a very early age.

1132.

It has been established today that when young children are starting to show signs of disaffection from society or whatever, it can be picked up at a very young age. We prefer to do the preventative work, but we do accept that it is a huge issue. Nevertheless, we would prefer to do it another way, ie to prevent the behaviour - tackle the cause rather than the symptom.

1133.

Mr K Robinson: Parenting skills in Scandinavia are always held up as the model. I understand that they teach parenting skills in schools, and society values those skills. Indeed, if a family goes off the rails, it is taken into care as a complete family, and everyone is re-educated back into society.

1134.

Mrs Jaffa: That is about valuing parenting and saying that parenting is a pivotal part of what happens in any family life. We need to guard against taking other schemes and transplanting them here. We need a range of choices that suit the variety and diversity of parents. We have some excellent material, but we still need to develop more resource material and more ways and styles of learning for parents.

1135.

It will suit some to learn about parenting skills when they are teenagers, but other teenagers want to be teenagers, and that is fair enough, or they have too much to cope with to think about parenting skills.

1136.

We must be creative in how we catch parents, or potential parents, at the right moment to enable them to get sufficient skills. We must value parents who have skills; parents are put down a lot. Parents have skills that they do not recognise or value, and they need more support in difficult circumstances with temperamentally difficult children. There is a variety of things that we must do and a lot of work to be done.

1137.

The Chairperson: Thank you for coming today and giving evidence. I pay a particular word of thanks to Mary Cunningham for setting up this meeting and the previous meeting. It has been useful to have groups from the voluntary sector giving evidence and answering the Committee's questions. We appreciate what you have done in assisting the Committee to draw up its report.

1138.

Mrs Cunningham: On behalf of Child Care Northern Ireland I thank the Committee of the Centre for devoting so much time and energy at the pre-consultation stage. I am left in no doubt that the Committee is taking the matter seriously. I know that, in the work that I have done with it, there has been a commitment to taking evidence from children, young people, Child Care Northern Ireland and a range of other bodies.

1139.

The last time that we gave evidence Mr Beggs asked what the Committee of the Centre could do for us. I will repeat what I said on that occasion. Child Care Northern Ireland urges the Committee to adopt a holistic vision for the Children's Commissioner that places all children first and has the legal clout to act with the services and bodies that relate to, or affect, the well-being of children. We must ensure, not just that the best possible outcomes can be assured for our children, but that none of our children are destined to fail.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 9 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Ervine
Mr Maskey
Dr McDonnell
Mr McMenamin
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Ms K Williams AM ) National Assembly
Ms J Westlake ) for Wales

1140.

The Chairperson: We welcome Kirsty Williams, Chairperson of the Health and Social Services Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. She is accompanied by Jane Westlake.

1141.

The Welsh Assembly has already established its own Children's Commissioner. The post probably differs a little from the work that our Commissioner will be doing. We thought, however, that it might be useful to learn about the Welsh Assembly's experience of its Children's Commissioner, positive and negative, and its role.

1142.

Ms Williams has made it clear that her own Committee gives witnesses a very hard time, and that she expects this Committee to do likewise -[Laughter]. She did not say that, and I am sure that members will not be too hard on you, Ms Williams. Please present your evidence, and the members will then ask their questions.

1143.

Ms Williams: Today it seems as though the boot is on the other foot, because I am at the receiving end of what I usually give out to witnesses who come before my Committee. I am, however, delighted to have the opportunity to come here. The Welsh Assembly was thrilled to receive your invitation, because sometimes we feel that Wales is being left behind. We are very pleased to be leading the UK in the establishment of Children's Commissioner posts, and at your interest in our work. We were also pleased to receive representatives from the Scottish Parliament who visited us with a view to making proposals for the establishment of a Children's Commissioner in Scotland.

1144.

First, we will talk briefly about some of the processes, rules and responsibilities that we envisaged for our Children's Commissioner, and how we reached the point in March this year when the first ever Children's Commissioner for Wales was appointed. I will then do my best to answer your questions.

1145.

In early 1999, when the National Assembly for Wales was established, there was already a considerable amount of pressure for the establishment of an ombudsman or Commissioner. We were, therefore, starting from a very firm base. Most of this pressure emanated from the inquiry into child abuse in north Wales, which culminated in Sir Ronald Waterhouse's report 'Lost in Care'. It was also a result of the incidence of systematic abuse of children and young people throughout the Principality.

1146.

There was consensus across the political parties that the Assembly should address the need for a Commissioner. The Assembly's subject committee was established in June 1999, and the Health and Social Services Committee therefore made this its top priority. We needed to move fairly quickly because the Cabinet was prepared to provide money in the 2000-01 financial year. In addition, we thought that there would be an opportunity to give the Commissioner some primary legislative powers via the Care Standards Bill that was proceeding through the Westminster Parliament at that time.

1147.

The political consensus on the principle of examining the need for, and the potential role of, a Commissioner was a considerable help to the Committee. That was a strong basis to proceed upon. We also benefited from the active involvement of the Minister. I should point out that the Minister in the Welsh Assembly is actually a member of the subject committee, rather than being someone we merely summon, and therefore we had access to her Civil Service resources when carrying out the work.

1148.

The way in which the Committee worked on this first major item has set the tone for its subsequent work. Members seek consensus and discuss policy developments with the main aim of improving health and helping the people of Wales, rather than to further party political objectives. We were also keen to extend our work to involve other Committees with responsibility for children - for example, we held joint meetings to discuss evidence with members of the Pre 16 Education, Schools and Early Learning Committee.

1149.

Although children and young people did not give evidence directly to the Committee, several of the organisations that responded had consulted with young people, and we felt that this was very important. Children in Wales was at the forefront in working with the Committee. It had consulted children, young people and advocacy workers as early as its AGM in 1999 in preparation for what it saw as this opportunity. Children in Wales derives its membership from many smaller voluntary organisations. It has been campaigning for a Children's Commissioner since 1991. Its ideas and proposals were well thought out, and many were reflected in the responses to the consultation exercise that we were involved in.

1150.

Voices from Care, another organisation upon which we relied heavily, represents the collective experience of children who have been looked after. It had campaigned for a Commissioner for many years. It was particularly concerned that children who were being looked after in social-care settings often had a very low level of awareness of what they could expect from their corporate guardians. It stressed the need for independent and trustworthy arrangements for handling children's complaints and promoting their interests and ideas.

1151.

Children and young people were directly involved in the selection of the Commissioner, and this was an innovative step in public appointments. I will talk about how we did that later.

1152.

As indicated in the Committee's report, of which I understand you received copies, it consulted on the issues in its remit in the autumn of 1999. It received almost 100 responses. These included responses from health authorities, other professional health bodies, local authorities, 25 voluntary organisations, teachers' organisations, schools, churches, the legal profession and 16 individuals with professional interests in this area.

1153.

Although there was much consensus in the responses, the Committee invited a number of voluntary and statutory organisations to give oral evidence. They included Voices from Care, Barnardo's, local authorities, health service practitioners, the Welsh Administration Ombudsman and Health Service Commissioner for Wales and the Local Government Commissioner for Wales. They threw a great deal of light on their roles to date in promoting the interests of children and dealing with their complaints - or should I say, not dealing with their complaints.

1154.

The evidence that we received helped the Committee to reach its conclusions, and there was general agreement about the role that the Commissioner should have. I should explain that there was some frustration about the limitations of the National Assembly's powers, and that caused us, as a Committee, our greatest concern in taking this policy development forward.

1155.

The first issue related to whether the Children's Commissioner's powers should extend to children and young people who normally live in Wales but who receive care, education and other services in England. This is particularly prevalent for young people in mid-Wales and north Wales who often receive, for instance, tertiary health care in centres in Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham. The Committee concluded that they should, although we had to negotiate the matter with the Westminster Government.

1156.

The second issue of concern was that there were a number of areas, such as the benefits system and the criminal justice system, where powers were not devolved to the National Assembly for Wales but were held by the Government at Westminster. Again, the Committee felt very strongly that this should be a matter for the Children's Commissioner, and we had to negotiate those points with Westminster.

1157.

The Committee's report sets out what we consider the roles and functions of the Commissioner to be. The main responsibilities are to promote children's rights and raise the profile of children's issues; to advise on the impact of policies on children and represent their views; to monitor and oversee procedures for complaints and whistle-blowing; to ensure adequate advocacy arrangements for children in various settings; to provide information to children on complaints and other procedures; to disseminate good practice when dealing with children throughout the Principality; and, where a point of principle is at stake, such as a systematic breach of children's rights, to undertake formal investigations or to assist with those proceedings.

1158.

In carrying out these responsibilities the Commissioner should have the power to require the provision of information or the disclosure of documents. The Commissioner's remit should extend beyond the services normally associated with children to wider services and issues that affect them, such as transport policy planning. The Commissioner's powers should enable him or her to issue a compliance notice in respect of any recommendation contained in a formal report, and all bodies over which the Commissioner has jurisdiction should be equally bound to comply, including the National Assembly for Wales itself. Any organisation not complying would have to publish its reasons for not doing so. The Commissioner would be able to ask statutory bodies to exercise any enforcement powers that they have, should it prove necessary.

1159.

The Committee's conclusions and recommendations were endorsed by the Assembly as a whole in June 2000.

1160.

Primary legislation by the UK Government was needed for the National Assembly to be able to give the Commissioner the statutory powers that the Assembly wanted for the post. We were quite definite in our views, despite some earlier pointers by the departing Government at the time that we could have a non- statutory Commissioner. We truly believed that the Commissioner needed statutory powers. Via the Secretary of State for Wales, we secured an amendment to the Care Standards Act 2000 that enabled the Assembly to establish the post of Commissioner, but his powers were limited to the scope of that Act - that is, social care settings.

1161.

The 2000 Act contains permissive powers, and these will be given effect through secondary legislation to be made by the National Assembly. We are still looking at the implementation of the secondary legislation, and we will be looking at that at our next Committee meeting.

1162.

By lobbying the Secretary of State for Wales, we were able to secure a slot in the UK legislative programme in the current session for a Children's Commissioner for Wales Bill - no mean feat when you have a very short legislative timescale. The Bill was introduced in the House of Lords in February, and this is a very anxious time for us because it is still at Report Stage, and we need to get it completed by Friday of this week or the opportunity will be lost. We hope that it succeeds.

1163.

Most recently, the Government have also agreed to an amendment that will enable the Commissioner to make representations to the National Assembly about any of the matters that affect the rights and well-being of children, including matters that are not devolved. That is the most recent battle that we have won. That was in February of this year. The Commissioner's powers have been developed in stages, but we have got much of what the Committee asked for. That is a real bonus.

1164.

The Assembly agreed that an Ad Hoc Committee should be established to advise the Minister on the appointment process, the job specification, and the criteria upon which the applicants should be judged. The Minister chaired that Committee. It included myself, as Chairman of the Health and Social Services Committee, and representatives from the Health and Social Services Committee and the Pre-16 Education, Schools and Early Learning Committee. Two independent advisers advised us.

1165.

The process of public appointments has been transformed by the creation of the National Assembly for Wales. The Secretary of State used to give the jobs to "the great and the good", but all that has been opened up now. It is a far more democratic and open process, which we welcome.

1166.

The Committee thought that personal qualities are more important than formal education. The Committee considered how children could be effectively involved in the selection of the Commissioner. Some Members were a little jumpy about involving children in the process, but we overcame that. As a result of the Committee's deliberation, the Minister invited the Biteback group, which is a body representing young peoples' organisations in Wales, to facilitate the involvement of young people.

1167.

In November 2000 a number of children and young people attended a consultation day with the aim of selecting a panel of 15 young people to take part in the selection process and to agree the basis for assessing the candidates. The day before formal interviews of the shortlisted candidates, the children were invited to meet and interview the candidates.

1168.

The young people were given comprehensive guidance on their role, especially on confidentiality, equality of opportunity and assessing candidates against the agreed criteria. We did not want to put the children in a vulnerable position with such an important role, and we made sure that they had training before they were involved in the process so that they felt well equipped and confident in their role.

1169.

The panel was asked to identify the candidates whom they considered met the criteria, but were not asked to rank them. It was not fair for that panel to pick and choose the person that it wanted. Two of the panel were then delegated to sit on the final formal selection panel that shortlisted the candidates.

1170.

Interestingly, despite the fact that the panel was not asked to rank the candidates, the person that it felt most met the criteria was also the person selected by the formal interview panel. There was a very good tie-in on who the young people and the formal panel thought was the best candidate.

1171.

The successful candidate was Peter Clarke, who had formerly been the director of Childline Wales, the very famous charity for distressed children. He took up post on 1 March and is now preparing for the statutory powers under the Bill that should be passed this week.

1172.

The Health and Social Services Committee will now monitor the progress of the Commissioner. He is required to produce an annual report and to bring that to the Clerk of the Committee once a year. The report will then be debated in plenary session. We hope that we will also continue to hear from children and young people to ensure that their expectations of the Commissioner are met in the future.

1173.

The Chairperson: How co-operative has Westminster been with you? We will be going down the same route. There are powers that are not devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly that we want the Children's Commissioner to address. Also, what amount have you budgeted for the Children's Commissioner?

1174.

Ms Williams: In answer to your first question, we were very fortunate because of the cross-party support for the Children's Commissioner. The very long campaign that many organisations in Wales had fought gave grist to our mill. We were also fortunate to have the publication of 'Lost in Care'. The first recommendation of that report was the establishment of a Commissioner.

1175.

The Westminster Government responded very readily by giving us the opportunity to amend the Care Standards Bill. They were also very co-operative in allowing us time for the Children's Commissioner Bill. We had difficulty in convincing them of the need to have the wide ranging powers that we now have. They were a little bit uneasy about the Children's Commissioner looking at issues not devolved to the National Assembly for Wales and at services that were being delivered outside Wales.

1176.

However, due to constant lobbying from our Minister, and also a great deal of support from Welsh MPs, we were able to agree that final amendment in February. It has been a process of building and campaigning, but we have found Westminster to be reasonably in tune with what we wanted, and easy to work with.

1177.

The initial budget allocation for the Children's Commissioner was £800,000 in the first full year. This was based on consultations with the children and voluntary organisations in Wales who were asked to give evidence on the costs of the Children's Commissioner. It was broadly based on their recommendations of initial costs of around £750,000. The Minister will make more money available, as the Commissioner's job develops, and we can scrutinise what resources are needed to make the job an effective one.

1178.

It is quite difficult when you are working, to a certain extent, in the dark. We will not know what the demands on his time will be until the post is up and running, but the initial allocation is £800,000.

1179.

The Chairperson: It is useful that you have set the precedent for us in working with Westminster on this issue.

1180.

Mr Ervine: Welcome to the Committee. I think that the Chairman is right, you have set a precedent for us. In delivering the precedent, do you think that it goes far enough? What authority, for instance, will the Commissioner have in dealing with the security authorities or the police? Has he the right or the authority to protect a child who is not in custody?

1181.

Ms Williams: We were anxious, as a Committee, that the Children's Commissioner should not be the point to which all individuals can make a complaint. We felt that it was simply impractical that the Children's Commissioner should be at the end of a phone line responding to each individual complaint. We did not envisage that as the role of a Commissioner.

1182.

We hoped that the Commissioner would have an opportunity to scrutinise how the police treat children and the policies that the police employ towards children. The Commissioner would comment on those areas and make recommendations on whether they were adequate or inadequate, and, in the light of that, look to improve systems for children.

1183.

If there was a point of principle where we felt that there was a breach of an individual's right, there would be an opportunity for the Children's Commissioner to take that as a type of test case, perhaps through a legal challenge. We were anxious that the Children's Commissioner should look at broad approaches and not be bogged down with individual details.

1184.

We felt that because the issue of the police is still a matter for the Home Office, we were anxious that the Commissioner should have the opportunity to look at that. That is why we have been fighting very hard for the final amendment. We want the Commissioner to be able to comment on issues of criminal justice, to look at the attitudes of, and policies pursued by, the police, and to look at accessible avenues for children's complaints against the police, so that these issues can be brought to the fore. Children's experiences of the criminal justice system can be brought to the fore, and recommendations can be made, if necessary, on how practice should be improved.

1185.

Mr Ervine: I am pleased to hear that the Commissioner is going to have the capacity to comment on non-devolved matters. How many staff will he have, and is there any capacity for them to be proactive? For instance, we were all very taken about a year ago when we saw a young girl of four years of age in a drug house, somewhere in north-east England, selling drugs to the public through iron bars. Is there a way in which a Commissioner for Children could be proactive in such a circumstance, or is he only going to deal with the statutory authorities whose responsibility it is to treat children well?

1186.

Ms Williams: If the Children's Commissioner became aware of a situation that greatly concerned him, we would expect him to be proactive. He would not be fulfilling his function if he just sat back and let somebody else deal with it. If there were a matter of concern that had been brought to him by a child that he felt was of concern to all children, or many children, in Wales, or if he became aware of an incident, he would be expected to be proactive.

1187.

Compliance is a more difficult matter. It is anticipated that the Welsh Children's Commissioner will be seen as a powerful figure. Although he may not always have the power to make people comply, the power associated with his comments should make it difficult for organisations to ignore those comments. Organisations would ignore him at the expense of public support and would incur the wrath of people who are supportive of the Commissioner. It is hoped that the Children's Commissioner will create that kind of atmosphere around him.

1188.

The Children's Commissioner has no fixed staffing numbers yet. At present he is consulting with young people and others about the staff and offices that he will need. The National Assembly for Wales has outlined the expected broad functions of the Commissioner and the staff expected to deal with those functions.

1189.

The Assembly expects that there will be a legal team. There should be qualified people who have knowledge and experience of developing advocacy services for young people, but there are no hard and fast rules. The Assembly did not want to be prescriptive. It wanted the Children's Commissioner to decide what he needed to do the job. The Assembly wanted to have a hands-off role.

1190.

Mrs Courtney: Were there applicants from both genders for the position of Children's Commissioner? How many applicants were there? I often think of the Commissioner as a woman, but I notice that the National Assembly for Wales appointed a man.

1191.

Ms Williams: We interviewed five or six candidates, two of whom were women. The National Assembly for Wales has taken the radical step of reviewing public appointments, and we are very much aware of how under-represented women are in public appointments. However, the best person for the job was a man, but two women were shortlisted. In the public appointments process we try very hard to ensure that there is gender balance, ethnic balance and opportunities for disabled people. The National Assembly for Wales is a very gender balanced assembly. It is almost fifty-fifty.

1192.

Mrs Courtney: That is better than the Northern Ireland Assembly. On the independence and accountability of the Commissioner, what options did your Committee look at? Who is the Commissioner accountable to?

1193.

Ms Williams: That is a complex set of arguments. The Assembly wanted the Children's Commissioner to be as independent as possible, but his power comes from being appointed by a set of politicians, so he is answerable to them. Ultimately the Children's Commissioner is answerable to the First Minister in Wales, who formally made the appointment.

1194.

However, the Assembly tried to ensure independence by making the Children's Commissioner a one-term-only appointment of seven years. After the seven years have been served, one cannot reapply to be the Children's Commissioner. It was felt that that would give some inbuilt independence because the appointed Commissioner could act without fear or favour of jeopardising his reappointment in seven years' time. It was made a lengthy one-term-only appointment so that the successful applicant does not have to worry about offending politicians, and he can be as critical of his political masters as he wants to be.

1195.

The post has been established as an arms length body of the National Assembly for Wales. Funding comes from the Assembly, so that potentially causes problems. The Commissioner is required by the regulations to produce an annual report. Therefore there must be a balance between the need for accountability and the need for independence. The Commissioner must be made to feel as free to criticise the National Assembly as he would to criticise a local council.

1196.

Mr Maskey: Thank you for your submission. From what you have said, I get the impression that politically you want to have the remit and authority of such a Commissioner to be wider and more authoritative, but you are not at that point yet. You also mentioned that the Commissioner would report annually to the Health Committee. Is that correct?

1197.

Ms Williams: Yes. The annual report is to the Assembly as a whole, but it comes to us first.

1198.

Mr Maskey: I assume that that is because the primary responsibility up to now has been in care issues. While you say that you do not want to be prescriptive, you obviously have a clear view of what you want from a Commissioner and want the Commissioner to consult and take further counsel on that. Who sets the Commissioner's priorities? Given the fact that there is a limit to the budget and to the authority, who helps him set the priorities? You established the Commissioner, having identified the need. You have appointed a particular person to do a job, so who would help set the priorities?

1199.

Ms Williams: I expect that the priorities would be set in consultation with the Health Minister and the Children's Commissioner. The reason why the Children's Commissioner's primary point of contact with the National Assembly is with our Committee is that our Committee is responsible for children as a whole. Although our title is the Health and Social Services Committee, we have the primary responsibility for children's policy in the National Assembly. Therefore, the Committee is the main point of contact.

1200.

I am sure that it is envisaged that the Commissioner would work in consultation with the Minister, but, ultimately, it would be the Commissioner's decision to follow a certain path. If he were particularly concerned about advocacy services or disabled facilities grants for disabled young people, it would be his call to pursue those points.

1201.

The Commissioner is aware of the broad role and remit envisaged by the Committee, and I am sure that that will be very much in his mind when he is deciding his priorities. However, the investigations and the areas of policy that he looks at first would be a matter for discussion with the Health Minister. Primarily, however, it is a matter for the Children's Commissioner and the children of Wales.

1202.

Priority for this post has to rest with the children and young people in Wales. If the Children's Commissioner is not investigating and looking at the issues that are of concern and relevance to them, then he will fail. He needs to keep in touch and talk to young people about what they want him to do. There are lines of accountability to us, but the lines of accountability to children and young people in Wales are far more important than the political lines of accountability.

1203.

Mr Maskey: There is much talk about the Commissioner being able to review and comment on policies. Is it envisaged that the Commissioner would actually be proactive, looking at upcoming policies and wanting to have input into the formation of those policies?

1204.

Ms Williams: Absolutely. From the beginning, young people have been pressing the Commissioner to look at ways in which children and young people can better interact with the National Assembly for Wales and have a greater voice in the development of policies. I am sure that one of the Commissioner's priorities will be to improve our relationship and working with young people to ensure that their views are taken into account in our policy development.

1205.

My understanding is that the Children's Commissioner will set up a standing committee of advisers, made up of a cross section of children and young people from across the Principality, who will be standing advisers to him in guiding his work - something like non-executive directors of the Office of the Children's Commissioner for Wales.

1206.

Mr McMenamin: Good afternoon, you are very welcome to Northern Ireland. You said that there were 15 young people involved in the consultation process. How were they picked - for example, was it based on a geographical spread? Secondly, which of the Committee's recommendations resulted from the contributions made by children during the consultation exercise?

1207.

Ms Williams: The Biteback group, which selected the 15 young people, consisted of children who were brought together by Children in Wales, which is the overarching umbrella organisation for voluntary organisations that represent children and young people. The Biteback group was not brought together for the purpose of selecting the Children's Commissioner, but for looking at ways of developing closer relationships with the National Assembly for Wales and a better voice for children.

1208.

The Biteback group is a cross section of young people from across Wales, and the 15 people that it selected were also from a cross section of society. They paid attention to the geographical areas that the children came from. Attention was paid to their linguistic background - both English and Welsh speakers were included - which is very important for us. We also made sure that there were representatives of children with disabilities and also those from ethnic minorities. When looking at learning experiences and how we would do it better next time, we ran into difficulty with the representatives from black and ethnic minority communities, who felt that we had selected token representatives. We will need to revise how we go about making sure that young people from black and other ethnic communities in Wales are better represented.

1209.

We tried to make sure that all those representative of children's needs were reflected in the 15 young people who interviewed the candidates. That is very important. We were afraid that otherwise we would get mini Kirsty Williamses or mini Rhodri Morgans - those young people who are better able to express their views and get involved and influence - rather than the type of children whom the Commissioner has primarily been set up to serve. The Commissioner is supposed to help children who find it difficult to find their voices. We also made sure that we had young people there who had been brought up in the care system.

1210.

Mr McMenamin: What were the Committee's recommendations as a result of that?

1211.

Ms Williams: They wanted the Children's Commissioner to have some teeth in the form of statutory powers. They did not want it to be just an advisory post. They wanted it to have the power of law behind it. They wanted to be involved in selection, and that was something unique. It had never been done before. They wanted to have some say in who got the job. They were very keen on the idea of having a one-term Commissioner, as this would protect independence. I think that covers everything.

1212.

Ms Westlake: Yes.

1213.

Ms Williams: We found a great deal of consensus from the consultation. We did not have widely varying responses to the consultation. It was mostly along those lines. These are the key issues that the children were concerned about, especially the appointment process. There was a great deal of cynicism about authority figures from the children in care. They wondered what was going to be different about a Children's Commissioner. They had been dealing with authority figures who had been letting them down for years. They needed to have confidence that this person was going to be different and would make a difference for them. The independence and the power, helping to choose him and having someone they could trust were important to that vulnerable group of young people.

1214.

Mr K Robinson: Welcome to Northern Ireland. I apologise for arriving late. How did you achieve the balance between creating a body that was going to investigate other elements of officialdom, which had failed in their responsibilities towards children, and a body that was going to project the needs of the child, as reflected by the groups that were set up and whom you took evidence from?

1215.

Ms Williams: The consultation exercise was quite a breakthrough in the way that these exercises were carried out in Wales. In the old days a great tome of paperwork would arrive on someone's doorstep, and it would state "This is what we have decided to do about the Children's Commissioner. What do you think?" Instead we sent out one sheet of paper with six questions on it. We asked what the Commissioner's priorities should be. From the responses to that consultation it was clear that there was a need to achieve that balance. People did not want to get rid of one function at the expense of another.

1216.

It was envisaged that the Children's Commissioner would be the figurehead of a large office. This job is too big for one person, so we need a figurehead. Below him there would be an office that could carry out these functions. The balance was achieved because that is what the response to the consultation indicated. People felt that there was a need to have a figurehead to promote children's rights and issues, but one who could also have the opportunity to investigate whether those rights were being enforced.

1217.

If you look at the Scandinavian models, some of the Children's Commissioners have been involved in the promoting of children. Our consultation response said that it was all very well promoting children and being a figurehead, but if those children's rights are being systematically ignored or abused in the systems, then what was the point? We needed to have investigative and scrutiny roles as well.

1218.

It is difficult to balance, and the expectations are huge. We are going to have to wait and see if those expectations can be met.

1219.

Mr K Robinson: Was that latter part because of your experiences in Wales with children in care? Did that figure largely?

1220.

Ms Williams: Yes, the systematic abuse that was revealed in Waterhouse's report, 'Lost in Care' did shape what people were feeling about the Children's Commissioner. The report starts in 1974 and, despite the misconception that it comes to an end in the 1980s, it actually identifies the systematic abuse of children even past the publication of the Children Act. This was continuing in the early 1990s. There was a need to respond to that.

1221.

Mr K Robinson: You have rightly shown your concern for children in care and children who have been through various systems where they have met officialdom head on.

1222.

What about that child who is still in a family home, whether it be with the natural parent, a stepparent or a foster parent? Your concern for that child does not quite leap off the page to the same extent. I take it that you have not missed it, that you have dealt with it, and I have simply failed to pick it up.

1223.

Ms Williams: You are right to the extent that the most vulnerable children in society were primarily on our minds, because of the 'Lost in Care' report and the early opportunity of an amendment to the Care Standards Bill.

1224.

This is my personal opinion, but part of it is to do with the slight reticence that one political party has had about the Children's Commissioner. This has not come through in the Assembly's deliberations, but certainly it does if you read the Westminster Hansard. It is perceived that the Children's Commissioner will be interfering in the family and would usurp the role of the family and the power of parents. We were perhaps a little more reticent about that because of some political sensitivity.

1225.

I do not accept that this is all about the most vulnerable children. If it had been we would have been happy to accept just the amendment to the Care Standards Bill - we would have got the statutory powers to look after children, and we would not have to worry about anything else. We continued to campaign and push so that the Children's Commissioner now has the right to comment on all issues affecting young people.

1226.

I would expect the Children's Commissioner's focus to remain, in the short term, on those most vulnerable children. However, we can hopefully move to a Commissioner who has that broader outlook.

1227.

Mr Beggs: Thank you for coming along and giving us your experience to date and details of your innovative methods. I will go back to the inclusion of children in the selection panel. I was amazed when I heard that, and I can see why some people would be concerned perhaps with the concept of children deciding who their teacher was going to be.

1228.

The Children's Commissioner should be able to communicate effectively with children and instil confidence that he or she is representing them. Do you feel that that is an important aspect?

1229.

On the selection panel consisting of children, can you confirm the ages of the children involved? Did they carry out the full selection criteria as an adult panel would have? Was their selection largely based on the ability of the candidates to interact with, and relate to, children? I would be interested to hear your comments.

1230.

Ms Williams: My understanding is that the children's age range was from about 13 to 19 - quite a large cross section. We felt that that was the most appropriate age range, although the Children in Wales organisation believed it possible to involve younger children. However, we were not that brave, though it was convinced of the possibility of involving even younger children in the process. In relation to the process, the young people were brought to a hotel in Cardiff, with appropriate carers, to undertake an entire day of training on the Saturday. That examined the whole range of criteria on which they were being asked to judge the person. The candidates were brought in on the Sunday, when there was a mixture of role-playing exercises, interviews and questions aimed at the individual candidates.

1231.

It is true to say, however, that the children and young people placed great store on the person's ability to communicate. They had a flip chart, and at the end of the day they put smiley faces against each candidate's name and against each criterion to judge how good they were. Obviously, if they felt they were particularly good at communicating with young people, they had a large number of smiley faces. If they were not so good they scored lower. The children were asked to judge the candidate against each of the criteria, including communication skills.

1232.

The person has to be able to inspire confidence in young people. If he or she comes across as patronising or not caring about young people, that will not inspire the necessary confidence. To communicate with young people is a core criterion. As I said in my presentation, in the job advertisement issues of personality were regarded as much more important than the formal qualifications a candidate might have. That brings me to address an earlier question about trying to attract as broad as possible a field of candidates for the young people, and us as politicians, to evaluate.

1233.

Mr Beggs: In your appointment of a Commissioner, have you built in any automatic reviews - perhaps after two years - to assess once again whether further powers are necessary or an alteration should be made in the terms? We heard that you were making allowances for the budget, but have you built in any automatic review of the Commissioner's role?

1234.

Ms Williams: We have not built in an automatic review, but the Health and Social Services Committee will be receiving an annual report and will no doubt take the opportunity to explore whether the Children's Commissioner has the necessary power to operate and fulfil his functions satisfactorily. I expect there will be an ongoing review of powers.

1235.

Mr Shannon: I too apologise for not catching the beginning of your submission. You have probably touched on some of the issues I will raise, and, if that is the case, I apologise. I am quite interested in how the whole thing came about. In other words, what was the motivation, in your view, to have a Children's Commissioner? Perhaps you touched upon it in your response to Ken Robinson relating to the child abuse going back to 1974. Was that one of reasons?

1236.

Ms Williams: It was certainly a primary driving force. The publication of the Waterhouse Report was imminent. We were not aware what it would include, but the widespread, systematic abuse of children, primarily in north Wales, was obviously a great cause for concern. There had been a long-running campaign for a Children's Commissioner from a wide variety of organisations in Wales, even before the Waterhouse Report. Organisations such as Children in Wales and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children had looked at models in Scandinavia and further afield and identified them as the kind of thing that we needed to explore at home.

1237.

Three of the political parties had a commitment to establish a Children's Commissioner in their manifestos for the 1999 elections. My own party, the Liberal Democrats, and the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru all mentioned it. There was a great deal of political impetus. It was not something that politicians decide on easily, but it was an easy way for three political parties to say "We delivered on our promises".

1238.

Mr Shannon: The fourth one said that it was going to - when the other three led the way.

1239.

Ms Williams: Yes. It woke up to the idea. At the first meeting it said that it would also be supportive of the issue. A combination of a long-standing campaign in the voluntary sector, the Waterhouse Report and the political parties' commitments in their manifestos was involved. These were all driving forces behind it. Waterhouse did not report until we were well into our deliberations in December 1999. The first recommendation of that large report was to have a Children's Commissioner for Wales.

1240.

Mr Shannon: Do you see the Children's Commissioner as complementing, rather than overlapping with, other statutory bodies and organisations? In other words, the Commissioner would have a role that has not been there before. That is the big issue that is coming before us in this Committee.

1241.

Ms Williams: That is a very important issue. It is not about going over old ground or replacing something that is already there. That would be a waste of everybody's time. We were very careful to look at what already was established in the areas of advocacy, complaints procedures and people looking after the needs of children. We were keen to make the Children's Commissioner complementary.

1242.

We heard from the Local Government Ombudsman and the Health Service Ombudsman. They were asked to give evidence because these, technically, would be the people dealing with the system. We asked them how they felt about a Children's Commissioner. Their response was unbelievable. They said that there was no need to have a Children's Commissioner because they had never once dealt with a complaint from a child. If ever there were an advert for why you need a Children's Commissioner, I would suggest that that was it. We knew we were on the right track when they give us that answer.

1243.

We did not want to overlap with people - we wanted to make the role complementary. That is why we did not want the Children's Commissioner to be constantly available at the end of the phone so that all the children who were angry that their parents did not give them any pocket money could ring up and complain. The Commissioner's office is not that kind of body. It is there to develop systems in local authorities. It is there to develop systems in social care so that a child has the right to advocacy and can complain locally. It is only as a last resort that a child should have to come to the Children's Commissioner. The Children's Commissioner is there to ensure that everybody else's complaints procedures and systems are child-friendly and accessible. It is only when those systems fail and break down that the Children's Commissioner needs to get involved.

1244.

You do not need to rebuild something that is already there; it is about being complementary and passing on good practice and disseminating good practice around. Good practice in how local authorities and organisations deal with young people does exist; it is a matter of identifying and disseminating it. The Children's Commissioner could do that more easily than a hard-pressed social worker stuck in a local authority in north Wales. How does that social worker communicate good practice to a colleague in the south-west of Wales? A Children's Commissioner can get the evidence together and disseminate that good practice more easily.

1245.

Mr Gibson: Thank you for your presentation and the enthusiasm that you bring with you. I suggest that the reason for the Children's Commissioner is perhaps different from what has been said. I put the case that you were faced with the Care Standards Act 2000 and the Waterhouse Report from north Wales, and that really a Children's Commissioner is someone brought in to sort out a number of systems that are failing and have not been properly dealt with. Is that not so?

1246.

Ms Williams: The issue of child abuse - how we keep our children safe and how we protect children in social care, and other, settings - is going to be the priority for the Children's Commissioner. However, it is not the only reason for having a Children's Commissioner. It is perhaps the most important impetus that led to the Children's Commissioner. However, as I said before, if we were only concerned about the issues around child abuse and social care, we would have been happy - and the Committee would have stated that in its report.

1247.

The Committee's report quite clearly stated that, while that was very important, and we needed to look after the most vulnerable people, there was a wider role in society in Wales to address the needs of children and to make children's and young people's voices heard. It would be wrong of me to say that that is a small part, for it is a very large part of the Children's Commissioner's role. In fact, that was something that the candidates were asked to address - to explore the issue of systematic abuse of children and young people in our society and how we could go about talking about these very difficult and painful issues and addressing them. It is more than that - and the Committee envisages it to be more than that - but it will obviously be a priority.

1248.

Mr Gibson: Only a very small number of children are in care or fostering. In what way can the Children's Commissioner advocate and work for the other 97% of the child population?

1249.

Ms Williams: There are a relatively small number of children in care. However, in Wales there is a growing problem of children at risk. We have record numbers of children registered at social services departments as being at risk. I am not sure about Northern Ireland, but, certainly in relation to England, we have a greater number of children on "at risk" registers - so there is a real need.

1250.

The Waterhouse Report was looking at institutionalised care for young people - that is no longer the preferred model. In Wales we now prefer to look after our children in foster-care settings which, in some ways, makes it more difficult to regulate because the children are more dispersed and we are having to check up on many more people.

1251.

Although there are a small number of children in care, they are the most vulnerable people in society. We owe them a debt, and that is why the Committee wanted to extend the functions of the Children's Commissioner so that he can be a champion for all children. We have a significant problem in Wales, compared to England, in the number of children that are potentially at risk. This figure has grown substantially.

1252.

Dr McDonnell: Is there any role for the Children's Commissioner in the grey area of, for example, special educational needs? If so, what is that role? How do you see it being defined, and are the health and education boards not dealing with it?

1253.

Ms Williams: In the National Assembly for Wales we are currently undergoing a review of special needs education and closer working in the health, social care and education settings for young people. This is an area that the Children's Commissioner is perfectly entitled to investigate, and report on, to ensure that young people's and children's needs are being met. It is for the Commissioner to decide whether it is an area of priority and whether it is something that he chooses to look into. He is perfectly entitled to look at the whole system of special educational needs and to comment and make recommendations on it if he sees that it is failing the young people in Wales.

1254.

Given the fact that the Welsh Assembly is currently reviewing the area of special educational needs, the Children's Commissioner might well take the opportunity to look at it from his point of view, and from a child's point of view, to make sure that children with special educational needs, and their carers, are involved in the consultation process. It is certainly an area that he is perfectly entitled to look at, but it is up to him to decide whether to do so.

1255.

The Chairperson: Does funding come exclusively from the Assembly or, because some of the powers are devolved, does Westminster make a contribution to some element of it?

1256.

Ms Williams: No, the Assembly's budget is devolved. We get our money via the block grant, and it is up to us as a National Assembly how we spend our £9 billion. There is no dedicated money from Westminster. I only wish that there were.

1257.

The Chairperson: We are disappointed you did not set that precedent.

1258.

Ms Williams: I am sorry. We have done very well, but not that well. There is no extra money. It is a matter for our budget planning round to decide how much money the Children's Commissioner gets.

1259.

The Chairperson: In virtually all of our submissions the age of 18 has been recommended as the cut-off point for the Children's Commissioner. Your Commissioner covers children right up to the age of 24 who are leaving care and who are still in education or residential. I have my own views on that. This morning I was discussing with the local Housing Executive the problems in getting accommodation for young people who have been in care and who are now homeless. They do not know how to live in society. What advantages do you see in the Commissioner's taking those matters up to the age of 24 if required?

1260.

Ms Williams: That area caused a great deal of debate. It is very difficult to know where to draw the line. There is now a statutory requirement to provide support, advice and care up to the age of 24. It was therefore felt that the Children's Commissioner should have the opportunity to do that. It is very important. I have had personal experience of the matter you mentioned. A child who had left care was put in a flat alone, only to cause mayhem in the local community. That was not because the child was a bad person, but because training had not been given in the skills of running a home, managing a budget and participating in the community.

1261.

It is very important that children who have been in care, or who have been institutionalised for a long time, continue to have the support of Government in accessing services. They also should have the opportunity to access support and services from the Children's Commissioner.

1262.

With regard to learning disabilities and disabled children, it also covers some of the difficulties of the transition from an education setting - in Wales the Education Department looks after their needs - to involvement with the social services departments. It is often an area of difficulty for children with learning disabilities as they go into adult services, and that gap is also covered.

1263.

With regard to looking at the wider needs of the children in Wales, one of the first things the Commissioner has already been asked to look at is the proposal in a couple of local authorities to build new schools. Meetings have already been held. That in itself does not sound particularly controversial. We would have thought that everybody would welcome the opportunity to build a new school, but the proposals are to build them on former waste tips and gasworks. That has caused a great deal of concern among the local communities, environmental organisations and some health organisations. The issue has been brought by the public and by the people concerned to the attention of the Children's Commissioner, and he is looking at how planning policy should go about placing children's schools. The issue does not involve children in care, but it will affect all children in Wales. The Children's Commissioner is therefore already actively looking at where schools are placed and at the whole matter of planning schools and school buildings.

1264.

The Chairperson: Does the work with the Commissioner form part of a broader framework, such as a national strategy for children? How important is such a strategy?

1265.

Ms Williams: At present the issue of how the National Assembly for Wales deals with children is quite complex. There have been calls for the establishment of a children's committee - which has not happened. We do not have Cabinet Committees in Wales, but the most recent development has been the establishment of the first Cabinet Committee ever on children. That will try and bring together for discussion at Cabinet level all the strands of policy that affect children. I do not know whether the Commissioner will have a role in developing that, but I do believe that we need to have a strategic vision for children's services. There is always, however, the danger that having a strategy for children allows politicians off the hook. It allows them to tick a particular box and to say "That is fine; you have done it." Children "over there", "in that document" or "on a shelf" are always forgotten about when policy is being decided on planning, transport and health. Their needs are overlooked. I would rather see children's issues in mainstream policy development, rather than always going down the road of specific child policy.

1266.

The Children's Commissioner will try to mainstream the views of children and young people, and the relevant policies, rather than continue with what we have done in the past in Wales. In Wales there is a tendency to tick boxes and say "That is fine; we have done it. Children? - We have done them; we can move on to something else." That does not address children's concerns about not being heard on a whole range of issues.

1267.

What is a children's strategy? What does a children's strategy talk about? What are children's policies? What are young people's policies? We have entered the election campaign and, this morning, they were already talking about youth policies. There are no such things. Every policy is a child's and a young person's policy.

1268.

The Chairperson: Will your Commissioner look at legislation that the Welsh Assembly draws up to ensure that children's issues are addressed?

1269.

Ms Williams: Yes, he can do that. To date, we have failed miserably as an Assembly to incorporate the views of our young people in our policies, procedures and systems. The Children's Commissioner will probably look at that at some stage and make recommendations to us. I hope he will - if he does not do that, he is not doing his job.

1270.

The Chairperson: Is the position such that if, at some date, you thought that the Commissioner's remit should be broadened, you would be able to do that?

1271.

Ms Williams: The easiest way for us to go about that is by using secondary legislative powers, because they enable us to amend statutory instruments ourselves. We would have to re-enter the fray with Westminster if primary legislation were required to try to broaden the Commissioner's remit.

1272.

To date, the Children's Commissioner has been the most successful example of how the National Assembly for Wales has interacted with Westminster on legislative time. That is fair to say. We would have to look at the situation at that time and see what we could do within our own powers and decide whether we needed to go back to Westminster. Who knows? By the time that happens the whole settlement may have changed, and perhaps we would not need to go back to Westminster.

1273.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for coming today. We wish you, your Committee, your Assembly and your Commissioner all the best, and we hope that you achieve a better deal for children in Wales. We also wish you all the best for October when your first baby is due. Then you will have an even greater interest in children's affairs.

1274.

Ms Williams: Thank you very much. We are thrilled to have the opportunity to come to such a beautiful place and building. It felt really special to come up the avenue. I hope that what we have told you today will be of some help to you in your deliberations, and we wish you luck with your Children's Commissioner and for the future of the Assembly.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Wednesday 9 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Gibson (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Maskey
Dr McDonnell
Mr McMenamin
Mr Shannon

Witnesses:

Mr T Frawley ) Assembly Ombudsman for
Northern Ireland
Mr J McQuarrie ) Deputy Ombudsman

1275.

The Chairperson: You are very welcome. We will hand over to you to make your submission, and then the Members will ask questions.

1276.

Mr Frawley: I thank the Committee for inviting evidence from the Office of the Assembly Ombudsman and for the opportunity to discuss this most important subject. It is timely and appropriate that the Committee is meeting today on Children's Day 2001, which is part of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children's important Full Stop campaign.

1277.

I emphasise my complete support for the proposal to appoint a Children's Commissioner in Northern Ireland. I came to my post from a background in health and social services. In my 30 years as a manager in the health and personal social services sector I found that the care and management issues that affect children were the most complex and intractable that I faced.

1278.

I acknowledge the outstanding work of many people from all sectors - voluntary, community and statutory - for their unstinting work, much of it unrecognised, in this important aspect, which will shape Northern Ireland's future.

1279.

The role of the Commissioner must be rooted in an inclusive, positive and an achievable vision for all the children in Northern Ireland. As someone who believes that reinventing wheels is an unproductive activity, I commend to the Committee the vision described in the Children's Strategy of the Republic of Ireland as one we could usefully apply as a basis for our approach in Northern Ireland. I quote their words for our context:

"A Northern Ireland where children are respected as young citizens with a valued contribution to make and a voice of their own; where all children are cherished and supported by family and the wider society; where they enjoy a fulfilling childhood and realise their potential".

1280.

This form of vision offers us a context against which we can shape the role and relationships of a Children's Commissioner.

1281.

The role and the priorities for the post should be informed by these further quotations. The first one is from a submission by a Scottish young person:

"I don't think society as a whole actually listens to young people because they can't affect anything that happens around them. For instance voting: because we don't have a vote, it means we are not part of society".

1282.

The second quote is from the Health and Social Services Committee of the Welsh Assembly.

"We consider the prime justification for the establishment of a Children's Commissioner is the absence of mechanisms to allow children and young people to directly influence decisions which impact on their lives."

1283.

And finally, I quote from the Scottish Executive consultative paper:

"Children form one fifth of Scotland's population but may have only limited opportunity to consider or comment on policies which impact on them. Whereas most adults are silent by choice, many children are not in a position to have an influence on matters which generally affect them. In most instances adults in the wider community act effectively in the interests of children. However, it remains the case that children have decisions made for, about and against their interests without their views being taken or needs considered. In families in danger of being socially excluded, the scope for children's needs to be overlooked is even greater."

1284.

It is clear from these references that there are three critical priorities for the proposed Commissioner if our children are to be happy, safe and reach their potential. First, the Commissioner must be an advocate and champion for children, ensuring real and meaningful engagement with children in ways that are appropriate, relevant and effective. Against our current performance and our organisational capacity, this presents a major challenge.

1285.

Secondly, the Commissioner must be the guardian of the rights of young people and children. Our objective must be to create a child-centred rights culture that will involve both promotion of rights and the monitoring of compliance. It should also involve representing and assisting children to present their case where a breach of rights is alleged or suspected.

1286.

Thirdly, life must be given to the much talked- about but yet to be seriously addressed ambition for joined-up Government. That would involve examination of all policy initiatives across statutory, community and voluntary sectors to ensure an integrated approach. It must ensure co-ordination and coherence to secure that optimum outcomes are achieved.

1287.

Generally, therefore, the championing role should be at the core of the Commissioner's role as it encompasses advocacy, research, monitoring and assistance in enforcement. There could be a legal problem if a Children's Commissioner determined complaints rather than investigating or assisting the complaint. Article 6 (1) of the European Convention on Human Rights states that

"In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law."

1288.

Therefore, if the Children's Commissioner had recommended and advocated for certain policies, and then could investigate the complaints involving such matters and determine the complaint, the advice I have received is that this would breach the determining civil rights or obligations or criminal charges, as the Commissioner would not be regarded as an independent impartial tribunal. Where the Commissioner does make determinations, the procedure must be fair and must involve public hearings.

1289.

A further concern relates to the potential for fragmentation. There is in the proposal the potential for unravelling the Equality Commission or for other groups to seek equivalent special provision, for example, the elderly or people with learning disabilities. I suggest, therefore, a narrower remit in terms of the Children's Commissioner using legal powers of investigation and enforcement. I have been advised, for example, that the standards on the UN Convention are not specific enough to be directly enforceable by an individual. Therefore, I suggest that a Commissioner should encourage authorities to develop a culture in which children are treated with respect, rather than be working for this in isolation from other bodies.

1290.

The legal protection of children should be worked out by participating in the legal framework available under domestic law, involving the Human Rights Act 1998 and the equality provisions of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The Commissioner would also have a duty to advise on how those frameworks could be improved in the interests of children. I advocate that the Commissioner seek to facilitate and underpin the work of those bodies on behalf of children, rather than set up a separate system of investigation and action. That would mainstream children's interests, giving them rights equal to those of adults.

1291.

The Commissioner should have specific roles in that area. First, the Commissioner should inform families and children in a meaningful way about existing provision. Secondly, he or she should have power of referral to other bodies and a right to receive a report on how the referral has been dealt with. A referral might result from an individual complaint or from the Commissioner's own research of a particular area. If dissatisfied with the response, the Commissioner could initiate legal proceedings, if appropriate.

1292.

I am concerned that the strategic vision may be downplayed in a body with too wide a remit. The advantages of visibility through specialisation raise potential fragmentation and conflicts of interest. Therefore, while it is possible to combine advocacy and investigatory powers and conform to article 6(1) of the European Convention of Human Rights, the potential complications in that suggest that it is better to provide for the Commissioner to comment on the enforcement performance of others. That would facilitate an ongoing comprehensive review and maintain the crucial monitoring role of the office.

1293.

A Children's Commissioner must challenge us all; complement existing services; offer an effective, systematic way of seeking the views of children and young people; make a major contribution to providing information, advice and support; be independent and have statutory powers; and be accountable for achieving the vision as part of a whole system. That can be expressed in the words of Francine Londsdaen:

"I'm kept in the darkness. I don't know my rights. Somebody tell me and turn on the lights. Tomorrow's the future and you may not be there. Let my views be heard, it's only fair."

1294.

Therefore, children must not only have protection but, critically, have participation. Children are not just human becomings; they are human beings. Childhood should be a preparation for citizenship and, turning the Victorian maxim on its head, children should be seen and heard.

1295.

The Chairperson: You referred a number of times in your presentation to keeping the remit of the Commissioner relatively narrow. The expectations of the Children's Commissioner are high - it is being talked about a lot. The expectations of young people themselves are high. The feedback that we have got thus far from young people is that they would like the Commissioner to have a broad remit. I understand your point about the office being fragmented if the remit is too broad.

1296.

How do we meet the needs and aspirations of young people and also have for the Commissioner a clearly focused remit that can actually deliver?

1297.

Mr Frawley: A couple of points might give the context. There are already significant arrangements, and there are different views on the effectiveness of those arrangements. It is very important that those organisation structures and systems deliver on their responsibility to children, rather than be inventing an alternative system. The critical balance is to ensure that the Children's Commissioner ensures that those organisations are delivering on their responsibilities in a joined-up way. That points to the key role of advocacy.

1298.

Picking up on your theme about expectations, the second element is that one of the real challenges for us as a society - and indeed all societies - is to develop effective mechanisms that allow young people and children to articulate their views. It is interesting that children in Wales were asked to assist in the selection process.

1299.

Twenty children were consulted on the sort of questions and processes that made sense to them. Two of those children sat on the interview panel. Some people might say that that is tokenism. However, it was a very realistic approach as ultimately the Commissioner will be for children. Likewise, if we were appointing a disability Commissioner, we would want to consult the disabled.

1300.

That engagement with children will become very important. It is exemplified in the excellent initiative in Fermanagh where real youth forums have been developed that enable politicians and others to hear what children are saying in a structured and systematic way. We want the Children's Commissioner to facilitate that type of development, replicate best practice and ensure that those voices are organised, articulate and able to come before Committees such as this and offer the views of young people.

1301.

It would be the responsibility of the Commissioner - having influenced the development of policy - to ensure that the bodies with a statutory responsibility to deliver those policies, do so. That is an issue of compliance. We want the Commissioner to be able to come back to Committees such as this, for example, and report that a certain policy does not work or that the bodies are failing to implement a particular policy. Policy development would not then be the dead thing that it tends to become in large bureaucracies. It would actually be a dynamic thing that is constantly changing through the intervention and support of the Commissioner who would make sure that it continues to be relevant and appropriate.

1302.

I am sorry that I have spoken for a long time, but the appointment of a Commissioner is a very dynamic task. It is not about developing a parallel universe for children, but about actually ensuring, as a previous witness mentioned, that the children's agenda becomes a part of the mainstream and is brought into play when all issues are being examined.

1303.

The Chairperson: Do you believe the Commissioner should have a role in making legislation childproof?

1304.

Mr Frawley: Yes, very much so. That is very important. The real challenge for a Commissioner is not simply to make legislation childproof. There must be communication with young people to ensure that they are informing the Commissioner's words and actions. The role will be very demanding and time- consuming. That goes to the heart of your earlier point, Mr Chairperson, that young people will expect that. They do not expect an adult to read articles and research and then announce that the policy is childproof. Rather they will ask "How do you allow us to influence this policy?"

1305.

Mr Gibson: Your presentation was a very worthwhile contribution to our investigation. I am delighted that you mentioned the issue of sharper focus because that is a contention that I strongly hold. I am concerned how the Commissioner, even with sharper focus, is going to encourage compliance when we do not yet have a strategy. There is a certain amount of wishful thinking surrounding the appointment of a Children's Commissioner.

1306.

I will use an expression that I used in a previous meeting: if there is a hole in the roof, do we put up a flag? Somehow the flag is expected to repair the hole in the roof. I am concerned that the ills of non-performance, or the lack of resources to make performance possible in other areas, will not, or cannot be altered despite the desire to give the Commissioner sharper focus and the ability to enforce compliance and make things happen. If this does not happen, you can childproof and do all those desirable things, but perhaps to no avail.

1307.

Mr Frawley: It is important that the Children's Commissioner will be a part of the overall framework of governance in Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is a very significant issue in terms of the relationship between the Children's Commissioner and the Assembly Committees.

1308.

I do not have determining powers for good legal reasons. As an ombudsman, I make recommendations. No public body - regardless of the citizens' perception of them - wants to be criticised or marked as a failure by a Children's Commissioner or an ombudsman. They want to do what is best for their communities. Issues of non-compliance or activities that they have failed in should be brought to their attention.

1309.

The Children's Commissioner would have access to relevant Committees of the Assembly and be able to tell them if x, y or z statutory body is failing. In turn, the Ministers who are accountable for the delivery of those systems would come before those Committees. I do not think that a permanent secretary or a Minister would be very comfortable if the relevant Committee said that they had a report on the performance of a particular education board or district council that said that they were failing completely to deliver on certain requirements.

1310.

It is better to have volunteers than conscripts. If you decide that that approach is not working, then you might want to give a Commissioner enforcement authority, but that should be an evolving arrangement, rather than the starting point. We should encourage people to participate and contribute, and if they fail to comply we could then try a different approach, but it would be disappointing if we got to that point. If the citizens of tomorrow are not being enabled and encouraged, particularly by statutory and voluntary bodies, then there is a serious issue for us to address. However, we should try to encourage people before we impose sanctions.

1311.

Mr Shannon: I liked your poem. As the father of three small boys who are often heard before they are seen, I understand exactly what you mean.

1312.

Does your remit extend to maladministration within the criminal justice system? If it does, should the remit of the Children's Commissioner extend to cover children in the criminal justice system?

1313.

Mr Frawley: No. My legislation excludes decisions concerned with the criminal justice system. At the start of any civil or criminal proceedings before any court of law in the UK, or any international court or tribunal, I immediately withdraw from the investigation. My authority is completely superseded by the authority of the court in such circumstances.

1314.

Mr Shannon: Would it be advantageous for the Children's Commissioner to have such a responsibility?

1315.

Mr Frawley: I could see a role for the Commissioner in supporting a child in a legal challenge, but I do not think that the courts would be comfortable if their jurisdiction was subordinated to a Children's Commissioner. That would take the issue to a different level, and another aspect of our judicial process would come into play.

1316.

Mr Beggs: I welcome your support for establishing a Children's Commissioner. The Local Government and Health Service Ombudsmen for Wales said that they had not had any complaints from children? Have you had any complaints from children in the last year?

1317.

Mr Frawley: We receive complaints from children, although they are not significant in number. In the year 1998-99 there were 28 complaints, in 1999-2000 there were 10, and in the year that has just ended in March 2001, there were 16.

1318.

There have also been complaints about the Child Support Agency, payment arrangements and central benefits that would affect children. The complaints tend to be about issues such as school transport, special educational needs - which was mentioned in earlier evidence - and the provision of play and amenity areas. In a small number of incidences we receive complaints about the whole issue of children's welfare and some aspects of how child abuse procedures are carried out.

1319.

Mr Beggs: How would you organise your interaction with the Children's Commissioner? Who should handle complaints about school transport, for example? Is there a need for a memorandum of understanding?

1320.

Mr Frawley: It would be very important to establish a protocol so that we could work together. We would need to establish a criteria for deciding whether a complaint was appropriate to the Children's Commissioner or to my office. My office focuses on the issue of maladministration.

1321.

The remit for the Children's Commissioner might go much wider than maladministration. I can see a circumstance arising where the Children's Commissioner might want to look at - what the Americans would describe as a development of a class action. Therefore, the Commissioner would need to see more general ramifications for a particular issue and see that as a case that he or she would want to pursue. However, I can only focus on the individual case and the individual complainant. A significant amount of resources would be needed to fulfil the advocacy, championing and policy-proofing roles. Therefore, if there were a protocol and an arrangement for my office to undertake the examination of individual complaints, I would see it as my responsibility - if I were investigating a case where I saw a wider implication - to go to the Children's Commissioner and say that I had identified a policy issue that seems to have significant implications in its application or ramification, and it may be one that the Commissioner would like to look at. That type of working together is something that we are already looking at with the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission, because they may have grounds for investigating an issue or referring an issue to me.

1322.

Another important matter that the Committee will probably want to consider is that the person or body who has been complained about has also got rights. Therefore, there must be another level at which a health authority, an education board or a local community group can say that it thinks that the Children's Commissioner has been unreasonable in the way that he or she has pursued a matter. The person or organisation could go to the courts, but the number of judicial reviews would escalate. The Committee might want to look at whether the ombudsman or the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints have a role in assisting in circumstances where people feel that there has been abuse of power by the Children's Commissioner, because there could be people who would perceive that.

1323.

To put that in context, if a complaint has been taken by the Children's Commissioner that involves a child, and you are an adult or group representing adults, you would not necessarily perceive the Children's Commissioner to be the fairest person to investigate that complaint. That is an issue that will be developed over time, but it is one of the complexities that must be understood as one moves forward.

1324.

Mr Beggs: We were told earlier that the Welsh Assembly had set aside an initial budget of £800,000. It looks after a bigger budget than the Northern Ireland Assembly does. What sort of budget do you think would be appropriate for us to give? Do you agree that the Commissioner should have the freedom to develop the staff and structures as he or she feels fit, or should the staff and structures be prescribed when the post is being set up?

1325.

Mr Frawley: If the Commissioner is appointed to fulfil a particular programme of work, he or she should have the responsibility to design the organisation. The Commissioner would be accountable for fulfilling the programme of work whether or not their organisation or approach has worked. The Commissioner stands or falls on the basis of whether he or she achieved what was set for them in their programme of work.

1326.

It is hard to predict the budget necessary for the Children's Commissioner without knowing what the total remit of the post will be. At a recent conference in Scotland, I listened to the appointed Commissioner for Children in Wales, and he has ambitions to appoint 25 people. Whether that will be supported by a budget of £800,000, I cannot say - it will depend on the people who are recruited. He intends to recruit a lawyer, and I cannot make any judgement about a salary for a lawyer.

1327.

Mr Maskey: Then the money is gone.

1328.

Mr Frawley: If the Children's Commissioner is going to have a wide remit and range of responsibilities, the resources must be available to meet that. I come from a background in the Health Service. You must look at the bodies that are already out there and what they are doing. Then you could decide for or against what they are doing, and you could decide the key roles that you want the Commissioner and his or her organisation to do and agree a sum of money. You do not want someone who is marking every aspect of public affairs - duplicating and overseeing. There is, I believe, an assumption - and this is important for public service - that people are doing good work and that mistakes and failure are the exception. That must be identified and addressed. Can the Government afford a wide infrastructure? That is a matter for someone else to address.

1329.

Mr McMenamin: Are there examples in which the offices of the ombudsman and the Children's Commissioner are separate?

1330.

Mr Frawley: That is the case in Norway, and I know that the Committee will take evidence from the Norwegian Children's Commissioner. There is an ombudsman and a parliamentary ombudsman in Wales who have oversight powers, and there is now the proposal to have a Commissioner. That arrangement is developing. The structures in Wales are dynamic - they had limited beginnings, but those have developed significantly. The Republic of Ireland intends to have an ombudsman and a children's ombudsman. Those are all stories in development.

1331.

The Government in Scotland have decided to take a step back. The Education, Culture and Sport Committee is asking what a Children's Commissioner can add to current structures. That approach is built on the fact that they are not looking at a blank sheet but at a lot of infrastructure, and they have to ask what the right relationship would be between that infrastructure and a Children's Commissioner. That Committee will come forward with proposals for the Scottish Executive about whether there should be a Children's Commissioner. In all of those instances, the point is to design a system around the existing infrastructure that is coherent and makes sense.

1332.

The decided system must avoid overlap and duplication as that would create confusion, and space would be contested. You could have people saying that they are going to judicial review and that the Children's Commissioner is interfering in their statutory responsibilities. There could be tremendous public disbelief as individual Commissioners contest issues and say "That is my responsibility, and this is yours." Establishing a Children's Commissioner takes time, but it is important to map the environment and get clarification about how the office would work.

1333.

Mr Maskey: You have raised a number of important issues about the scale and the scope of such an operation. I take those issues on board, particularly as one may have to face budgetary constraints. There are widespread expectations about such a post. I would have preferred to see a minister for children and young people, albeit time-bound so that policy matters could be introduced into the mainstream.

1334.

I am interested in the grey area in the relationship between the Offices of the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, the Commissioner for Complaints and of any Children's Commissioner. I get the impression that you see those offices as equal, whereas I am trying to get a sense of an authority chain. That outlook is different from those of the past.

1335.

People have expectations and demands because they think that past systems have been unsuccessful. That lack of success is not down to individuals - it is because Governments have been distant and not joined-up. I would like to see a system that appoints a Commissioner with clout and who can make a difference. We will have to follow-up on the matter of resources.

1336.

Mr Frawley: I am looking at the matter from my working experience in a complex system such as the Health Service. My experience told me that if I could get to the next job I would have more authority, and I have always believed that. Each time that I have got to the next job, I have had less authority than I had in the previous one.

1337.

Hierarchies are important. The Children's Commissioner is important because he or she has an informed professional voice that can look at the performance of the different parts of the system. The Commissioner can objectively say that one part of the system is working well, or that another is failing, or that a policy that engages those two elements is missing. The Commissioner needs to take that overview. The structure is not hierarchical, but the Commissioner is outside the system observing how it is working and whether the office is serving the needs of children, as well as encouraging and demanding that the different components of Government work in the interests of children. In that sense, I would see it as about independence, rather than about authority.

1338.

The second dimension is that because of the independence of the role of a Children's Commissioner it seems that there has been a focus on the investigative role that will draw him or her into the dark detail. In fact, the ambition for the post is to be above the dark detail. It is important that that investigative role is not circumscribed but is described in a way, as the Welsh are trying to do, that when there is a major issue that requires investigation and which has very major ramifications - for example, a child abuse issue or an issue on the safety of children in different circumstances that has general application - that could be the subject of a major investigation by the Commissioner.

1339.

Investigations are hugely resource expensive. They are not things that you can walk into, take a couple of notes and walk out with a definitive judgement. They are very demanding, and a lot of expertise is required in them.

1340.

I would not circumscribe the investigative responsibility, but I focus more on the independent overview of the performance of all departments in relation to delivering a child-friendly social system in Northern Ireland. The key focus is the big issue, rather than getting into detail. If the individual gets sucked into a lot of detail, then they will lose that overview.

1341.

Mrs Courtney: You talked about the independence of the Children's Commissioner, and in your report you said he or she should have an annual report to the Assembly. Who do you think should appoint the Commissioner, and whom should he or she report directly to?

1342.

Mr Frawley: In terms of my own situation, I submit an annual report to the Assembly, which describes all the work that the office has done in the previous 12 months. Sponsorship of my office is through the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, and it purely supports the overall work. The key issue is that I am independent and in a position to look at any part of a Department's performance and say "I find that unacceptable" or "That is maladministration."

1343.

It is important that the Commissioner is not accountable and has the independence to say, for example, that the Department of the Environment is failing children. If the Commissioner were reporting to a Department, then there would be a problem in terms of that independence.

1344.

The Commissioner's real accountability would be to the Assembly. The Commissioner could report "That was my programme of work and what I achieved, and those are the issues that have emerged. As you undertake your work in overseeing the whole governance of Northern Ireland, these are the big themes for children that should be in that programme. In that way the Assembly can contribute to all the elements of the Government's programme. The Departments, and your scrutiny arrangements, can ensure that. If there are not enough resources, that may have to be accepted and only two or three things targeted to be done." That could then be brought back down into the system through the organisations that are accountable, and the Children's Commissioner could oversee it.

1345.

With regards to the appointment process, I think my appointment was the first time an ombudsman has been the subject of a public appointment process. To have the confidence of the public, it should be a public appointment process. As to who should be on the panel, the Civil Service Commission undertakes these things on behalf of Government, and that may be something you want to look at.

1346.

The process should be open and available to anyone who considers himself or herself competent or eligible. Obviously, there would be selection criteria. Maybe the Welsh model of having young people on the panel is a challenging issue, but it may make the appointment convincing and credible to young people. That is a choice for those who would design the process. An open public advertisement would result in the best and most qualified person being appointed.

1347.

Mrs Courtney: The Welsh model as a 7-year appointment cannot be re-negotiated, and the person cannot re-apply. Do you think that is a good model?

1348.

Mr Frawley: It is for a post like this. In the nature of this work, it is important that the person stays fresh to the task and brings fresh insights and observations. After seven years in a job like this, it is not possible to retain that fresh eye. It would be very interesting to have a seven-year programme, because this is not going to turn around in a year or two. This is a cultural shift in the way that we perceive children. It is not about issuing legislation but about the way in which children are supported and looked after. A seven-year term is quite a sensible model.

1349.

The Chairperson: How much does is cost to run your office? How many staff do you have?

1350.

Mr Frawley: Our budget is £945,000, inclusive of accommodation costs. We have 18 staff, and we employ experts in medicine or social work, depending on the type of complaint that we are looking at. There are a lot of add-ons in terms of the support that we seek.

1351.

The Chairperson: What are the strengths and weaknesses of the procedures that you are required to operate by law in respect of investigations?

1352.

Mr Frawley: I mentioned the strengths earlier. It revolves around making recommendations. It is an inquisitorial model of investigation. I am not there for the complainant or to support those people complained about. I try to walk the middle line and hear both sides of the issue. I have an inquisitorial approach, which is obviously about questioning. I look for papers, documentation, minutes and records of discussions or decisions. I have a very high level of authority - equivalent to that of the High Court - in terms of seeking documentation. People who refused to attend at my direction could be the subject of a contempt proceeding.

1353.

All my investigations are absolutely covered by confidentiality. That can be frustrating. There is only one time in the year when I can reveal what we do, and that is in our annual report. In some ways, that can be frustrating. You come across issues that you think the public should be aware of, but that is not in our gift. The person who complains can take the report that we give them at the conclusion of our investigation and share it with others. That is their decision. Similarly, the Assembly Member who sponsors a particular complaint can take the report and share it with others. However, my office can have no involvement in the public arena. That becomes a weakness for a Children's Commissioner who might wish to publicise issues and bring them to the attention of the public. However, confidentiality is the basis of my authority, so I accept that limitation in that spirit.

1354.

The other key - and you could call this a weakness or a strength - is that I cannot determine an outcome. I make a recommendation. Any Department or body would be within its rights to say, "That was interesting, but we are not doing that." That has never happened in my time, but it has in the past. On such occasions, I could make a report to the Assembly and say that the body was refusing to accept my recommendation. I do not think that a Department would wish to be in that position. However, it is still only a recommendation. If I made a recommendation in my other role as Commissioner of Complaints, then the person can take that recommendation to the County Court and have a value put on it by a judge. I do not put that value on it. I do not have a determining role.

1355.

I have a very high level of confidentiality, which can be a difficulty on one level. That would be a real difficulty where people are looking for publicity and a result or outcome. The other limit on my authority compared to, say, my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, is that I can only investigate when a complaint is made to me. I could not read the 'Belfast Telegraph' tonight and say, "My goodness, how did that authority come to that conclusion? I must go and have a look." Someone has to come to me with a complaint, saying that he or she has suffered injustice. Then I can look at it.

1356.

In the Republic, the ombudsman can look at a pattern of difficulty. Recently he produced a major document on the management of residents' personal allowances. He saw a problem and decided to do a major investigation. I cannot do that. I could do a special investigation, but that would only be after I saw a pattern of individual complaints.

1357.

That is another limitation compared to what you might wish to see a Children's Commissioner having. You might want him or her to be able to go out and see a problem and immediately embark, without anyone complaining, on an investigation of how a service is operated or how a policy affects young people.

1358.

The Chairperson: When is your annual report due?

1359.

Mr Frawley: It is due at the end of June - for the period ending 31 March 2001.

1360.

The Chairperson: We look forward to seeing that. Thank you.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 11 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Poots (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Courtney
Mr Maskey
Mr K Robinson
Mr Shannon

Witness:

Mr T Waage ) Norwegian Children's Ombudsman

1361.

The Chairperson: I warmly welcome Trond Waage, the Norwegian Children's Ombudsman. We are very pleased to have you with us today.

1362.

As a Committee, we have spent the past two months taking evidence from almost every children's group in Northern Ireland. We will draw all the views together in a report on the role of a Northern Ireland Children's Commissioner or Ombudsman. Today sees the end of the evidence sessions, so it is fitting that you should be here to represent the country with the longest experience - 20 years - of a Children's Ombudsman. The Welsh Health Committee has just appointed a Children's Ombudsman, and Kirsty Williams, the Committee Chairperson, was with us on Wednesday 9 May.

1363.

We would like to learn from your mistakes so that we do not repeat them. We also want to learn from the things you did correctly and to repeat those.

1364.

Mr Waage: Thank you very much for inviting me. This is my third visit to Northern Ireland, so I have had the opportunity to meet some of you before and exchange information on children's issues. I have also had discussions with representatives from the strong voluntary sector in Northern Ireland, and that has been a very fruitful experience for me in Norway. I always take back a lot of information and new ideas from my meetings in Belfast.

1365.

As you may know - and I understand that as Committee members you are well-prepared for the hearing - the office of the Children's Ombudsman started in Norway in 1981 after long discussions in the 1970s on the revision of law relating to children. The main starting point was the policy on children.

1366.

In my travels during the past four years, I have met parliaments, assemblies and governments that were planning to set up an independent office and who were investigating how it should be staffed and organised in relation to other national bodies. From my experience in Norway I can see that there is one big challenge, and that is how the legislation is framed.

1367.

The legislation for the Norwegian Ombudsman is very broad and open. It is one and a half pages long. It gives the freedom to do things that are important in a modern society that is changing rapidly. It can be reactive in a monitoring, watchdog role, and also proactive, working towards the future and using the competence of children in Norway, who are our most important tool. The children feed me with information on how we should create the best facilities in Norway.

1368.

Children often get lost in the political shuffle in Norway. They are often invisible in society, they have no vote, and their interests are rarely represented in political processes or decision making. Despite rhetoric to the contrary, children are not high priority in policy making or in the allocation of budgetary or other resources. That is what we are faced with in a modern society in Norway.

1369.

We have a Minister of Children and Family Affairs. In the 1980s, the first Children's Ombudsman in Norway proposed that we should co-ordinate the activities of children at ministerial level. Up to that time, different committees had taken responsibility for special issues. This Ministry has a very high profile in Norway. The last Minister had also been her party's leader. In this way the Government is telling Norwegian society that we do give priority to children.

1370.

My task as Ombudsman is to monitor the legislation going through Parliament to see if it is in the best interests of children. The task is one of public administration of bureaucrats at a local, municipal and national level. We receive complaints from children, families, parents and grandparents. I then decide if the issue is purely a conflict between public administration and the individual, sometimes which is regulated by the general Ombudsman. If that is the case, I will refer the matter to him.

1371.

The conflict is sometimes outside the mandate of the general Ombudsman, because it is a matter of principle. I have the power to investigate these cases, and after looking at several of them I can synthesise them and bring them forward on a political level to the local administration, and inform them that the matter does not meet with the practice required by the legislation. I can also suggest a change in the legislation through Government and Parliament. In any given year several proposals for changes to the legislation will have been initiated by the Ombudsman's office.

1372.

The tradition of the Ombudsman in Norway is very highly respected, and I am not talking about me personally. It is to do with the way in which the institution was introduced in Norwegian society. The office has a high media profile. It is used as a witness for truth when the media highlights various conflicts. Commentators look for a definitive statement from the Ombudsman on the right direction.

1373.

That means that we are in a position to create quite a lot of public awareness in these cases of principle. The last issue, for example, was about piercing. I took up the case because young people had brought it to my attention. Many had had problems with infections from piercing, because it is not regulated by health legislation. It can be done at hair salons and other places. Piercing is trendy, but infections were costly for our health system.

1374.

We had a discussion with the young people and we came up with a proposal about how to regulate this, but not everything can be regulated. It is important for an Ombudsman to use his authority to raise public awareness of debates and changing attitudes. There are issues that cannot be regulated, such as commercial pressure and the sexualisation of childhood.

1375.

I invite directors of private companies to my table and ask them for their ethical codes regarding children. I ask them to take some responsibility for the creation of happy childhoods. We are trying to create a positive child profile, and they know that this is important for children and families. We co-operate with these influential private companies.

1376.

In Norway we do not have school uniforms as you do here. This means that we have one of the most expensive school uniforms in the world. You have to wear the right jacket, have the Nokia 3310, and wear the right shoes. Companies identify the most popular children in the school yard, who then receive free clothes for a few months. Advertising is not allowed in schools, but the children are used as indirect commercials.

1377.

The pressure is difficult to regulate. However, I have initiated a public report through the Government, and this important paper on commercial pressures on children will soon be published. Families have been fighting for this. If you do not look "right", you can become socially excluded, which is an enormous pressure on young people. I can work with the private sector to come up with a child profile. They have invited me to share this process of framing a positive society for children in Norway.

1378.

Although this is a cause that will give me some statutory power to investigate, I am not allowed to intervene in the court. If I were to do that with complete confidence, I would need many lawyers. It was passed through Parliament because there was a fear the Ombudsman's office would dive into individual cases. The Ombudsman would not have the power to have an overview and a holistic approach. Children in Norway often face a "sectorising syndrome"; everyone stands on their own turf and only look at issues from their own point of view. A child with a problem can go to one sector which says that it is not its responsibility, and the child is shuffled around different sectors. They wanted an Ombudsman's office with a more holistic approach, a bridge builder. The Ombudsman could get consensus and get the different sectors to work together in the best interests of the child. That is why we are not allowed to intervene in court proceedings or in cases in process in local administration. I can analyse the cases afterwards to see if they have been handled in accordance with practice and legislation. I can come up with proposals for changing the outcome or I can criticise it, but I cannot take part in proceedings.

1379.

We are not allowed to intervene in family affairs although we do when a child calls us who has been beaten or sexually abused. We cannot say then that we are not helping a child because we are. There is backing for that in the legislation in that a reference to the CRC (Children's Rights Council) was added to the legislation in 1988. We were established in 1981 and the CRC was ratified in Norway in 1991, so that was not reflected in the original legislation. However, through the evaluation process we undertook in 1994-95, a new proposal was put to Parliament that is now reflected as an article in the legislation.

1380.

We intervene when we need to, when we feel that children's rights have been compromised and there is a danger to health or life. That is always done through co-operation with the child. Together we settle on a strategy that he or she trusts. It is important for me to ensure that the public system around the child and the family functions in accordance with the legislation's ideal and vision. So I have this power, when addressing the local administration, to say that something is not in accordance with the legislation and that it has to change.

1381.

My staff is multi disciplined and is made up of lawyers, psychologists, educationalists, a sociologist and one medical doctor who is also a lawyer. They all advise us. They were not recruited primarily for their educational or professional backgrounds, but because they are dedicated to children's interests. We are working holistically on all cases coming in.

1382.

Our budget is limited. From August there will be 12·5 people in the office plus one or two additional staff. Altogether we will have 14 or 15 people. Some will work on projects in the office. I have project offices so that we can focus on one issue. For example, when we had to focus on the commercial pressures on childhood, two young people from the university worked in my office for three months. They did some research and came up with ideas for the Committee and for Parliament.

1383.

Our budget is seven million Norwegian kroner, which is about £700,000. In April each year we deliver a proposal for the following year's budget. We are formally affiliated to the administrative side of the Government through the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs. However, it is Parliament, in their budget discussions, that decides on the amount we receive.

1384.

There is a broad international dimension to the office. The European Network of Ombudsmen for Children (ENOC) meets annually to discuss common interests in a "league forum". It is sometimes very lonely being an Ombudsman because you do not have a Cabinet or colleagues to lean on, but I have the children, which is good. There are some 1·3 million children in Norway. We also co-operate closely with the Nordic countries, meeting annually on a bilateral basis.

1385.

One challenge is to have extensive contact with children, which is one of the main things that Parliament wanted us to have. We have developed several ways of communicating with children, which we call "creating dialogue instruments".

1386.

We also have a powerline, which is different from a helpline or a hotline. Our contract with the powerline means that children can discuss injustice or things they would like to change, such as bullying or problems with divorce and so on. That kind of competence is needed. Proposals to change legislation arise; for example, recently we had the rights of homosexuals to adopt children. In those cases we use our dialogue instruments and we ask the children. That material comes to my office for analysis, and we can respond through our Internet channel. We also have two other channels: we have a direct line to text-TV on the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation and we have a slot on a television programme that is broadcast on Sunday mornings where we answer the questions that children and young people have asked the Ombudsman. In that way we have continuous dialogue.

1387.

I travel a lot and have many meetings with children on the issues they want to discuss. We consult children if a proposal for change is to be put forward to Parliament or if new legislation is to be formulated.

1388.

The Chairperson: What difference has the Children's Ombudsman made in Norway since it was set up 20 years ago? What evidence is there that it has benefited children and young people?

1389.

Mr Waage: A report has been published on this issue. The benefits can be measured on four levels. First, what is gained when individual cases come into my office for advice and analysis? Coming to the Ombudsman is a last option when all other avenues have been tried. That is a daily reminder that we are helping individuals.

1390.

Secondly, the political and legislative level must be considered. Since 1981 legislation concerning children's issues has been initiated by the Ombudsman's office. It is important for us not to flag our case - we are not politicians. When we put forward a case such as raising the age limit for piercing or banning cosmetic surgery for 16 to 18 year olds, it is important that that is put forward to Parliament so that the politicians can claim ownership of the idea. Politicians discuss ideas that come from the Ombudsman, to which they sometimes refer in public debate. Those ideas come forward as their own work, which is good because we want changes.

1391.

Political strategies are also useful. Children's issues are key priorities for five out of the nine political parties in September's election, and we have been asking for that for the past eight years. We are pleased that the parties have done that. The campaign will be interesting because politicians cannot fool around with children as much as they have been fooling around with those of us who are in our 40s.

1392.

Thirdly, we have had successes with the private sector. It is possible to have a meeting with the president or director of Nokia or the Internet providers so that they can devise filters, thus guaranteeing freedom of speech. They can also provide freedom of choice with different channels.

1393.

Currently the Internet is a challenge in Norway. It is open to everyone because there is no freedom of choice, unlike television. You can buy several packages and one may contain the pornographic material. As a parent, I can make a decision. In Norway 95% of families are on the Internet. There is no freedom of choice - you have everything or nothing.

1394.

In our meetings with Government, it has been said that the Internet is impossible to regulate, which is why I am working with the private sector in developing different channels on the Internet.

1395.

Fourthly, there is the voluntary sector. We co-operate well with the voluntary sector, the non- governmental organisations (NGOs), which is vital. We also guide the NGOs when we feel that they are losing track of childhood issues. We can promote our ideas and strategies on what childhood should be; childhood is not a disease that will pass, it lasts for a lifetime. We work closely with the voluntary sector.

1396.

The Chairperson: Is there evidence that cases of child abuse have diminished over the past 20 years?

1397.

Mr Waage: Through my office?

1398.

The Chairperson: Yes, through your office and also through legislation. Is there evidence that children are less in danger as a result of your child-proofing legislation?

1399.

Mr Waage: Yes. However, when we send proposals to Parliament to be debated, sometimes the whole Parliament is against us. That is how it should be. The responsibility to make changes lies with Parliament, not with the Ombudsman. We have worked on the changes that have been made to child policy in Norway and we are happy with what is happening, although we feel that they could occasionally go further.

1400.

There is currently a proposal to change the Norwegian Children's Act 1981 in respect of divorces. It is complicated in a typically Norwegian way. How can we ensure equality and give advice on divorces and also how divorcees can be good parents. It costs. We have to come up with a budget. What will it cost in the short term, and what will it cost in the long term?

1401.

The Chairperson: How are children and young people made aware of your office and its role, especially those who are on the margins of society and who are not on the Internet?

1402.

Mr Waage: It is done in many ways. It is part of the curriculum in primary and secondary schools, where children learn about the Ombudsman's office and about children's rights. A survey asked the question: "Do you know the Ombudsman?" Nine to 11 per cent knew about the general Ombudsman; 19% knew about the gender Ombudsman; 21% knew about the consumers' Ombudsman; but 78% knew about the Children's Ombudsman.

1403.

The reason people know about the Children's Ombudsman is that he or she has a high profile. We have our own television programmes and visit children as part of our proactive role. We are setting things on the agenda. For instance, you have been working here on radiation from mobile phones. In Norway we brought up that issue four years ago, and the whole of society was shocked because no one had thought about radiation. The children reported that to me. They said they became hot or change colour and so on, so they started asking questions.

1404.

We are concentrating on the political agenda, raising awareness and the media. I do not have a public relations person in my office because we receive six to eight media requests each day on issues that they are working on. We do not answer all the questions. We answer those that are proactive, because young people are often portrayed negatively. They are victimised; they are portrayed as harassing the elderly and that is not true. Ninety-eight per cent of young people in Norway are the most fantastic resource group that we have.

1405.

An important task of mine is to increase children's participation in the educational system and in the health system, so that we can bring their understanding of life to the changing process. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child consists of the three Ps: protection, provision and participation. The committee in Geneva that receives our state and end-of-year reports focuses on protection and provision but not on participation - it is also missing in the Scandinavian countries. Resources that children and young people have must be acknowledged and encouraged. Children and young people want to take responsibility for their education and their learning process. They want us to trust them to do that. There are several successful pilot schemes in Norway. Therefore, children themselves often initiate changes through my office.

1406.

Mrs Courtney: I found your presentation interesting because you outlined exactly what we are looking for in a Children's Commissioner. We are trying to get the right balance for the Children's Commissioner's duties, and you have put a lot of flesh on the bones. I had not thought about some issues that your office has highlighted such as body piercing and designer clothes. Those things concern families. I did not think they would be matters for the Children's Commissioner, but obviously they are.

1407.

You did not mention teenage pregnancies; they are a problem. Does your office have any evidence of that problem in Norway? Do young people come to your office with that problem? I brought the issue up because a case has been highlighted in England where a 12-year-old is pregnant. She does not know who the father is; it could be any one of five. What are your views on that?

1408.

Mr Waage: In 1999 my office dealt with 134 cases of teenage pregnancy. They were young girls aged between 13 and 16 who had been raped by friends. When we investigated what was happening we realised that the boys had the power. A group of friends could be having a party; the girls probably were not drunk but perhaps they were in love with a 17-year-old boy and things went too far. Even though the girls said no, they ended up in a gang bang with their friends. The girls are 13 years old and their lives are destroyed. Why is that happening? What is happening between young people? We could, of course, take the legal route through the courts and tell the boy that he is 17 and he was responsible for the situation. However, the girls do not want to do that.

1409.

They do not want to be raped once more by a police investigation or by a court. Why is childhood and youth being sexualised? It is because the Internet and commercial magazines are flirting with it? Is it because of the Lolita element in music? A commercial industry is promoting the idea of sexiness at the age of 13.

1410.

We must start to work on such cases. If we do not, the promotion of that idea will continue. Cases such as Peter, aged 17, which are brought to court simply pour water on the fire. However, there will be new fires. By having an overall, holistic approach, we try to identify, on a macro level, where the wider political and private sectors can take responsibility.

1411.

We interviewed the 134 cases and asked why the court system was not trusted. The young people said that the court would presume consent because of the way they had been dressed. I asked the lawyers in my office to go through the court judgments on rape cases over the past five years. The purpose was to see if there was a negative impact linked to how a person was dressed or to how they behaved that could have reduced the penalty for the perpetrator.

1412.

That report has been widely discussed by the Norwegian court system. They have tried to shoot me down, but the conclusion is that children younger than the age of 13 trust the court. The findings were very clear: how a person was dressed or whether they had taken a drink had no positive or negative effect on the case.

1413.

However, things change from the age of 14 upwards. The court seemed to treat those young people as if they were adults aged 18 and over. The debate is active. I was able to raise awareness with the professionals and judges through the report. A report is a good way to raise professional and political awareness. It can change society so that rape among friends can be stopped.

1414.

Teenage pregnancy is not a huge problem in Norway, for many reasons. However, we do have individual cases.

1415.

The Chairperson: It might be useful if you told the Committee about your role in the debate on the reduction of the age of consent to 15?

1416.

Mr Waage: Most of the cases we are working on stem from the children and young people themselves. During busy times, our telephone lines handle up to 160 calls a day. Individual cases also come in. We must ensure that a public system which is supposed to help children and families is functioning. That is our role.

1417.

In a post-conflict situation, you must ensure that the system is available and trustworthy. The police, the court system and advisers must be trusted. It is my task to ensure that it is working for the best interests of the child.

1418.

I understand that the age of consent here is 17. In Norway the proposal was to lower the age of consent from 16 to 15 and to bring it into line with EU standards. There was a debate on that. It did not come before the Norwegian Parliament because on that same day the proposal was announced, our switchboard was jammed with girls calling to ask us to stop the proposal.

1419.

We then developed a way to use the children's expertise and competence in such an issue, which is about their own lives. One of the dialogue instruments that we are currently testing is the Internet Parliament involving every school council in Norway. The Ombudsman's office has been campaigning for school councils, established by law, in every primary and secondary school in Norway.

1420.

By law a school council starts from the fourth grade. It is used for democracy training and citizen leadership. It is also the instrument for involving young people in improving their work place. All school councils can use the Internet Parliament to vote on issues that are due to come up in the real Parliament. The results of the test voting were that 90% of young people were against lowering the age of consent. That is a strong argument.

1421.

When I reply on the Internet, I do not use bureaucratic language. I write in a language that children can understand. If I did not write in that language, they would criticise it and come up with a proposal about how it should be written. I then ask students to discuss the matter in their classes for three weeks, and on 22 August they can vote electronically. Two hours later on 22 August I can go to the Parliament and give the opinions of the young people. Some parliamentarians in Oslo would say that this is too complicated an issue and young people are not mature enough. But the young people would say that it is their life and that they know what they are talking about. I would also say to Parliament that it has ratified conventional children's rights and children should be heard.

1422.

Mrs Courtney: I find that most interesting. You said that children are taught their rights in the school curriculum. Is that in primary and secondary school? Do you visit the schools?

1423.

Mr Waage: It is on the curriculum in primary and secondary school. We have been working on changing the curriculum in Norway to allow children more freedom to design their own learning processes. We have reduced the strict curriculum and opened up project sites so that children can decide what kind of ethos they want to take into the learning process which is located in the local environment. Many of the projects are about rights and the Ombudsman. It is also part of the curriculum in the primary sector.

1424.

Mr Shannon: What created the need for the establishment of a Children's Ombudsman in Norway? I note that you have 15 members of staff and run an office with a budget of £700,000. Are the majority of calls to your office from children or from parents who are concerned about their children?

1425.

Mr Waage: I have arguments for and against setting up the office. There was no accident or big event which initiated the Ombudsman debate. It was part of a lengthy discussion in the 1970s revising the Children's Act. It was based on the fact that children had no voice. They were seen as objects that belonged to the family rather than as individual subjects. It was also a way of opening up. I am not saying that the state entered into controlling families as part of public order. Children must have a decent environment to be raised in. We must have a way in, and that means giving children a place to go that they can trust.

1426.

That was the general discussion in the 1970s that led to the legislative proposal. Politicians of the time were courageous in that they did not create legislation running to 15 pages. I have been invited to many drafting committees discussing legislation for Ombudsmen in Germany, Poland, Flanders and the Irish Republic. Perhaps the issue is obscured by that of children's rights, but it seems to me they are trying to create a new General Ombudsman for children. In Norway that was impossible, because you are not supposed to have two Ombudsmen with the same mandates and powers - one for adults and one for children. The General Ombudsman is also responsible for children in the cases he deals with.

1427.

What is the extra factor with the Children's Ombudsman? Openness, moving along with developments and our proactive side have been our successes in Norway. Countries with very detailed legislation have tied their Ombudsmen's hands by excluding certain issues; he becomes a non-thinking Ombudsman. One needs courageous politicians to accord the office or person the necessary freedom.

1428.

When the legislation is in place, the next step is how to identify the person for office. That is a constant debate in Norway. You must apply for the job of Ombudsman in Norway; the discussion is very open, and the media and the newspapers have their candidates, as do individuals. Candidates are assessed on how they want to shape the office and what their concept of the future is. Candidates are then screened by an independent group and, according to legislation, a name is put forward to the King. In reality that means the Cabinet, and it makes the appointment.

1429.

Funding is then issued without the Ombudsman being bound to do anything. No one can instruct me as Ombudsman. Governments come and go, but the Ombudsman sits out his period in office. Of course, if I am found in the park, drunk and naked or whatever - which can happen with politicians - they would probably raise the possibility of my leaving office.

1430.

This proactive way of approaching childhood is very important and brings an additional factor to the office of Ombudsman. When asked outside Norway about my relationship to the General Ombudsman I frequently stress the importance of that when framing legislation. A new institution for children will always mean conflict with the Human Rights Commissioner, the Equality Commissioner or someone else.

1431.

You must be clear about the bodies and the role and you must act with openness. However, one should not allow the office to fall between two stools - it should be lifted up. It came out in a fruitful discussion I had with the UN Human Rights Commissioner, Mary Robinson, that without children's rights, there are no human rights. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is not simply an additional piece of paper, but a human rights document about respect, trust and the dignity of the human being. In Norway, when the first Ombudsman was to be appointed, there was a big discussion about the person. The person must be visible to the children, yet he or she cannot travel all the way round north Norway. A flight ticket from Oslo to a northern city in Norway costs as much as flying twice to Rome.

1432.

The first Ombudsman was a psychologist, although that is not a requirement for the job. He could be a taxi driver, or from any profession, and that is how it should be. The second one was a children's TV personality and entertainer, so it was difficult at times to see which hat he was wearing. In a few months the office was very well known, and I had the very easy task of going into an office which was prepared. It is also important that children know my face and know that this office is not just more bureaucracy.

1433.

To illustrate how my office works, I have said that it is like a small sailing boat on a dangerous coastline in bad weather threatened by some 10,000 tonne tankers called the Norwegian education system, the Norwegian health system and the Norwegian tradition. Something which is flexible, innovative, holistic, futuristic is needed to make them change course. I know that that sounds a little bit floppy, but it is the vision of our office to be in front of development.

1434.

Mr Shannon: May I have your views on the parents coming in?

1435.

Mr Waage: There was an enormous debate in the seventies over whether it would take away parental authority if an Ombudsman's office were set up. It was asked if we were giving children the right to attack their parents? A second point was made that we were taking away important work from the voluntary sector, and a third was that the money used to run this office could be used to help children. Those were the three main arguments against setting up the office.

1436.

What happened? The parents are still the best allies we have in working with children. Parents come to my office for advice. Some of them are there for parents' rights more than children's rights, but we can see that, and we use the time to talk to them and change them, not to fight with them. We trust parents to get the message across that parents are not the office's enemies rather our companions.

1437.

Having a child today in Norway is the most important family project ever; it must be a success. We have never had so many educated parents in Norway. They want the best for their children, and they are frustrated because there is a new parenting role that they cannot find. They cannot run back to the sixties, see what their parents did and try to do the same with today's children. An important role of my office, and that of my advisors, is, through the media, advising parents, giving them the trust to believe in themselves and not get frustrated.

1438.

A few months ago I was in a school having a meeting with children and parents. In came this 12-year-old boy with "saggy trousers", a cap and a skateboard. That was OK; that is part of a 12-year old's life, but behind him was someone just the same only taller, and that was Daddy. He had decided to became a friend instead of a parent. That was his way of coping with his role as a parent - being cool. When I left home I had a map and a compass because we had good co-operation between my parents and education, and it was much easier to look into the future. I had, in a way, a very easy start.

1439.

Today I have a 15-year-old girl. The only thing that I can give her is a good compass which does not start to spin around every time there is a new Diesel jacket or a new Nokia product passing by. She will be able to keep on the right path. The only thing that is certain is that everything is uncertain. That is the struggle that parents are dealing with today. We have a very important role as parents, and I like that role because we are guiding children towards being parents themselves. That is important. More than ever clear- headed parents are needed, not parents who have abdicated or are going for the cool, friendly things. You need someone who can communicate. I am not talking about smacking; I am talking about communicating and guiding the young ones.

1440.

Mr Maskey: I have a number of questions. Normally we say that we blame the parents, but on the issue of "saggy" trousers, we would have to blame the child. You mentioned the so-called friend rape; I believe that that is a serious problem in France and perhaps in some other European countries. What practical steps are you taking with other countries that have that type of problem to analyse it and make recommendations for dealing with it? I am using that as an example of how you might relate with other countries.

1441.

Mr Waage: We carried out a report on what is happening in the courts to gather evidence to show that we can trust the court system. That is an important message for young people. We investigated court cases and found that we can trust them. Do not hesitate to go to court.

1442.

Secondly, we asked the Minister of Justice to come up with a training programme for the police because the kids did not trust the police. They felt that they were raped because of their mistrust. We must have investigation methods which are respectful towards children because this is very difficult to talk about. They are working on that. As a result the police will probably have a special unit for children to deal with sexual abuse and rape, et cetera, which is good.

1443.

Thirdly, we also must have discussions with the media, so that parents can be made aware of what is happening on Friday nights. They need to know if something is changing with their daughter or their son. They also need to have a way to start communicating with their kids. The final thing is to start working on the industry which is imposing the new non-respectful image of how you treat your friend. That is the most difficult issue, but the debate that there has been since this report, since we made the cases public in March 2000, has been frantic. I am quite impressed by the way in which the newspapers, which have a lot of power, have angled and supported the Ombudsman's work on this. More or less everyone has. This is not about pointing the moral finger, it is about human rights, children's rights and respect. It is nothing to do with whether you are Conservative or whatever; it is about having respect for a child.

1444.

Mr Maskey: Given the powers of investigation that your office has, would you say that they are adequate? Could you give an example of where you have sought discovery of documentation or evidence from any organisation, Government Department, or elsewhere? Could you give an example of where your powers were not adequate to get to the truth of any matter that you wanted to engage in investigating?

1445.

Mr Waage: I am not sure that I understand your question.

1446.

Mr Maskey: You have powers and the responsibility to investigate allegations of abuse, neglect, et cetera. Are they sufficient to allow you to do your job? Can you give an example of an instance where you sought to carry out an investigation and found that your powers were not enough to enable you to get the relevant information?

1447.

Mr Waage: No one can hide information from the office. We have never experienced that. If we need details of the investigation or background detail, we get it. No one has so far dared to challenge that right, which is reflected in the Norwegian Act.

1448.

If I had to appear officially in court in Norway, or somewhere else, I would need to reduce the proactive side. I would use more resources and need more staff and lawyers to work on those cases. In some cases we feel that the courts have absolutely no concept of a child's rights. I could appear officially in court, but that would completely change the remit of the office.

1449.

Moreover, the court system would never accept it because it wants the Ombudsman to be outside the court system. We analyse a case afterwards, and when we suggest a change in practice or criticise the court, that is taken into consideration.

1450.

The real power is not in the Ombudsman's office, but in Parliament. I report to Parliament. I also co-operate with the research institution. The good thing is that research is about yesterday's problems, whereas I deal with today's problems through my communications with children in Norway. Those two instruments are very strong when we put forward evidence combined with the results of our investigations. We are taken very seriously, and we have sufficient respect in society. We are serious and not ad-hoc workers. When we issue a statement, the status of the Ombudsman means that it is taken seriously.

1451.

Mr Maskey: You mentioned an impressive range of issues that you have dealt with over the years and how you work with young people. You can only carry out a certain number of functions at any given time. Given the limitations to your budget and staff do you work in a formally structured way with young people in setting the priorities for your office?

1452.

Mr Waage: Yes. We have a very strong structure for the priorities that we set for the coming year called focus areas. We have eight main focus areas that we work on all the time. Although we have limited resources, I do not want a large office. I want an office with professional people who are not bureaucrats, but who are trustworthy and flexible. If we grow too much and become a new Ministry, we automatically reduce power, trust and respect in the office.

1453.

The most important matter that we are working on is utilising the resources in the kids themselves by strengthening the school democracy councils and setting up the Internet Parliament. We include children in all hearings. We arrange local hearings around Norway and bring the kids out of school to attend. It reveals to society, and especially the media, that they are resources. Children are portrayed so negatively that it is important for us to let them show us what they can do - if we let them. That is what I call the hidden resources of society.

1454.

Norwegian oil supplies will run out in 20 years or so, but we have other untapped resources. We have 429 principalities in Norway, and 170 of them have local Parliaments. Young people do have power - they have the budgets, and they make decisions. The Mayor is there.

1455.

When they take responsibility, very often they do not copy how grown-ups work, they find their own way. When we do that, we see the change of ownership. They have ownership and a completely different attitude towards their school; the graffiti is gone because it is their school, not your school.

1456.

That is the change of attitude, or image, of the child. We want to lead children from the education system and let them out when they are well enough to go into society. In this "waiting room" they are not yet adult, not yet competent, not yet, not yet, and they feel a "not yet" attitude. That is strong. Then they start to do such things as paint graffiti - things they should not do, and I would do the same.

1457.

Mr K Robinson: You are welcome, and you have brought a breath of absolutely fresh air to our deliberations. We have been snowed under for weeks with piles of paper and some very good briefings from a wide range of bodies, but to hear from someone who is dealing with the problems has given us all a great insight.

1458.

You come from a very different culture. We tend to have a "blame culture" in Northern Ireland, and we are always blaming someone, some group or some institution. That has almost been reflected in our deliberations until now. We seem to have created a human rights industry here, and we focus on public bodies' lack of response to young people, their past failings and their potential failings. There is perhaps a reason for that. What has brought children's rights to the centre stage is the fact that we have learnt, and learnt brutally, that for a long time children have been abused, particularly in areas of trust where society has placed them, and the children have been unable to respond.

1459.

We come to this almost with a guilt complex, but what you are saying to us is taking us beyond that context. Annie Courtney brought up the matter of private industry, private commerce and the pressures they put on young people. A graphic example is the dress code. We have a body of opinion that says that school uniform should not be worn, that it is old-fashioned, dated, et cetera. The argument against that is that everybody wears the same, everybody is treated equally, and the costs are kept down. There is a debate about the truth of that.

1460.

You show a pressure on our young people that my generation perhaps does not understand. They must conform; they must have the skateboard; they must have the outfit. Are we missing the point? Are we focusing too much on the public bodies, their failings or potential failings, and missing the drastic influence at an early stage that private industry has? We are inexperienced in that area. Do we say to the private sector "You have a responsibility. You are helping us to create society, and these are some of the problems you are giving our young people"?

1461.

Could we tease that one out first? I really would like you to expand even more on that. We have focused almost totally on the success or failure of the public agencies and perhaps on the voluntary agencies which have tried to address those failings. You have opened a new dimension for us today.

1462.

How effective has your office been? Have you ways of monitoring that?

1463.

Mr Waage: That was an interesting summing-up. If I had said something like that, I would be very proud. It is important that the legislation enables us to take a proactive role. Our base is what comes in from the young ones. Many of those matters cannot yet be dealt with in Parliament, because then we would be regulating everything in society. We do have a private sector which does not necessarily have evil thoughts about exploiting children or young ones. It is a commercial interest, however, and for many of them the pressure is great. Some conflict with the expressed values of society. While those values are not reflected in concrete regulations, we have had, among other things, to bring about a change in attitudes.

1464.

That is placing awesome responsibility on the private sector. We must not have too strong a belief that public bodies can help everything. I have the freedom to address the president of Nokia or another industry and call them for meetings. We can have good discussions. The main thing is that we play on the same ground and have the same goals. They are amazed at the things that come in from children, and the discussions are usually started in an easy way.

1465.

If they do not follow my advice, I can use a power that is not contained in the Act. I can say to the media that I had a meeting with the president of a company who declined to co-operate with children. That is payback time. I had a meeting with UEFA (Union des Associations Européennes de Football). It was a sport club but now it is more of a sports industry. UEFA identifies kids aged 11 or 12, and those children mean somewhere in the region of £51 million for the organisations. This has happened in Norway in the past five years.

1466.

Things may be more strict here. In a meeting in January with UEFA representatives I told them that there should be a payback to the children for all the money that UEFA earned from them. The payback is that UEFA should shoulder the responsibility of the children's growing up and going into sport, and it should be a fair-play system. Money and being famous are not the only important factors; it is also important to have a team that plays together and has fun. That is payback time.

1467.

UEFA representatives very often say that they do not have these types of discussions inside families. They say that someone from the outside should have those discussions, the Human Rights' Commissioner or the Ombudsman? They do respect the children, and I know that from information from kids. I am using that play in Norway now, and it is very important.

1468.

Mr K Robinson: Will you talk about the evaluation and how successful it has been? You have the Internet connection with young people, and that is a tremendous step forward. How do you prevent that from being abused by pressure groups? Telephone polls, for instance, are carried out here, but it is obvious that a particular pressure group is pushing its model and thoughts along the line and we are not getting a truly reflective view of society. How do you guard against that?

1469.

Mr Waage: That is not easy. If one wants to lobby it seems that the first thing to do is have a pooling of all the questions, and they appear on the front page everywhere. I am trying to keep my office away from that. If you go along that route, you lose the seriousness that is needed to be an Ombudsman.

1470.

The parliamentarians must respect what we are doing and listen to and read about it. I deliver a political report every year. This year's report is called 'Ongoing Childhood'. It is about the sexualisation of youth and the failings of the child welfare system. It is also about preventative work; raising a child is preventative work. Children should have a degree of normality as they grow up.

1471.

We are giving the politicians the negative side, but we are also suggesting ideas for improvement. As a result of this report the Government are focusing on children in the next election. We can hear our arguments in the politicians' speeches, and that is good. When that happens I feel that we have achieved success, we have made it.

1472.

Many pressure groups criticise the Ombudsman. I read a newspaper this morning on the Internet about a pressure group for children with chronic diseases which approached my office four months ago about the situation in hospitals. It stated that I had not responded well enough. The pressure group has to find someone to criticise, and that is the Ombudsman. If groups want attention in the public arena they often go through the Ombudsman's office. Television stations cover some cases because it is public information. Often groups write to me and see their story in the newspaper the following day, because we are not allowed to withhold that information. An individual case is taken out of that information base.

1473.

Mr Beggs: You have really brought the role of Ombudsman to life. It has been talked about, and it is in paper, but you have helped to put the bones on it. You have demonstrated many of the necessary qualities that someone in that role should have. Do you agree that a Children's Ombudsman should be child-friendly, independent and media-friendly? Those qualities have helped in establishing a new office and improving access. I detected a non-party political skill, with a small "p". You are obviously skilled in networking, involving and influencing people. They are essential qualities. What other qualities are essential to be a successful Children's Ombudsman?

1474.

Mr Waage: Access to children is crucial. The office has to be available for children. As an Ombudsman I must be available for phone calls and meetings. If children come to talk to you, you have to talk to them. They should feel that they are being taken seriously. The office should be equipped with proper funding to enable it to develop dialogue with young people. It is important for them to know that you are available.

1475.

These are Norwegian examples. It is a different setting in Northern Ireland due to the conflict. I can act well in many cases because I have a system which takes my recommendations seriously. Public systems have been set up to help children in crisis. My task is to see why those systems are not functioning properly. Is it due to lack of funding or is it the profession? Is the education system not functioning well enough? Do we need to bring in psychologists? If you do not trust some public bodies, I can understand that you may need to set up a special body for children. In Scandinavia we have been working very much on the proactive side as well as on the reactive side. People grow tired of you if you act as a watchdog that bites every day. If you represent children and you are going to be a spokesperson for children, you must also represent the vision of the children for the future. That combination is very important.

1476.

Mr Beggs: Sometimes children who have been brought up in unfortunate circumstances repeat the mistakes of their parents. Have you been able to address that or get involved in that in Norway? We have lessons to learn, and we should be more proactive. Finally, you said that the five main parties in Norway have given children's issues number one priority. What are the current issues in Norway? I am curious that this has happened after 20 years. What level have you now reached with children's issues? What are the current priority issues? Northern Ireland is at least 20 years behind Norway, but I hope that we will not take 20 years to catch up.

1477.

Mr Waage: The most important case to be discussed in the election campaign is the education system. You have heard that before. As you may know the election campaign started with the Norwegian constitution itself - by law you build a country, then the traditionalists said that by religion you build a country and then we had slogans saying that by education you build a country. The latest thing is that by IT you build a country. We are saying that it is with children that you build a country. The education systems need to be changed, especially secondary education because we are producing losers and creating failures, and that has consequences for life. We should not be allowed to do that.

1478.

I will tell you a story which was reported in a newspaper lately. I receive many letters from children in crisis, but I received one fantastic letter from a child who has been enduring her crisis for 10 years. She has been bullied in a school, and her only therapy has been writing. She sent me such a powerful letter that we almost needed help in my office to read. It was fantastic to see how Maria, aged 15, had survived 10 years of enormous harassment. You would not believe the awful stories. It was like 'Lord of the Flies', which is a nice story compared with her life.

1479.

In Scandinavia if a Minister misuses his credit card it can become front page news, and the Minister has to resign. If a Minister builds a garage or an extra room without paying for it, he has to leave office. If a child is bullied for 10 years and tries three times to take her life, although she has a supportive family, no one takes responsibility - no one has to leave office. It is more important to keep his taxi receipts in good order. Politicians have to take responsibility. I went to the school she has attended for the last five years, talked to the headmistress and asked her if she had seen the bullying. The headmistress replied that she had seen it but had thought that the girl was strong enough to cope. Should she have avoided responsibility because she was not a professional? Everyone had seen the bullying but had done nothing. Someone should take the responsibility.

1480.

Mr Beggs: On the question of who should take lead responsibility, it is difficult to judge whether to allow children to resolve their own conflict - provided it does not go beyond the bounds. In the case you are talking about it was obvious that the conflict was more than just children interacting. There were indications that it was severe bullying.

1481.

Mr Waage: To return to your question. You were asking about issues at election time. Bullying, education, children in a divorce crisis are three issues. We have a good nursery system. It is very expensive in Norway, and I understand that it is also expensive here. Sweden has made a decision that shocked Norway. The Government in Sweden decided that the maximum rate for public kindergarten should be £110 per month. We pay from £350 to £600 per month.

1482.

On the Internet this morning a newspaper reported that the Prime Minister had stated in his election campaign that he would half the price of kindergartens. I have had meetings with party leaders, and they have invited my staff and me to planning meetings to get background information for their campaigns. We will give advice to any party. These are the crucial issues. They also use our reports, which are very political. They also find that commercial pressure is part of the task.

1483.

Mr Beggs: Are proper parenting skills and training part of your role as the Children's Ombudsman?

1484.

Mr Waage: In Norway you need a certificate to have a dog. If you do not have a training certificate, you cannot have a dog. That is an example of a pressure group. You do not need a certificate to have a child, and I do not think that you should. If you incorporate how to be a parent into the education system, which is what we have been asking for in secondary and high schools, you can then change the social negative line. Attitudes are passed from generation to generation so the education system is crucial for helping to change attitudes. That is why we are discussing incorporating parenting skills into the education system now. Perhaps this could become more important than maths. It is much more important than how many cities there are in Belgium. Things are constantly changing in Belgium and Europe. You can now get updated for 10 cents on the Internet. The new generation knows how to get information. It may know the capital city of the United Kingdom, but it is not taught how to tackle a complex society and how to tackle conflicts.

1485.

Challenging the education system is important. The Minister of Children and Family Affairs produced a parenting package of books, videos, tapes for health centres. It is free to use, and often groups of parents of newborn babies form discussion groups for the first two years. Now the nurses in health centres have asked them to extend that to eight years, and journalists are being invited to become involved. In Norway the media and, particularly, newspapers have changed. They now write about children. How to raise a child is a very hot topic, and they want the 10-point rule.

1486.

We have been working with the media, but we have to be careful of the regulations the media have created. There is no reflection there of children's rights. There was an enormous case a couple of years ago in which a mother used the front page and middle page of one of the biggest tabloid papers in Norway to write about how negative the system is. She had a premature child. and she was revealing all the details about her. The child was nine then and at school. Suddenly everyone knew that she was premature and found out her faults. She was then bullied.

1487.

I attacked the newspaper asking how it could just take care of the parent. The paper stated that in its rules if a parent gives permission, it can print the story. I raised the issue with the council of journalists, and it has now, after a long process, taken our recommendations on board. Now children's interests must also be taken into account. We are working on another big case involving small schools out on the west coast. There is a proposal to close these schools down to reduce costs by $250,000 or £100,000 over eight or ten years.

1488.

This means that the children will have to go to school by bus and ferry every day. One of these schools is moving the children for up to four hours a day from the public school to a new central school. I went on the news and said that there should be a maximum time for children travelling to and from school. I challenged the Minister of Education to set up a group of officials to investigate it. Taking four hours out of children's lives each day is stealing an important part of their childhood. They should be with their parents or out climbing trees or playing football or Pokemon or whatever. You cannot play Pokemon on the bus. This is a case for the Ombudsman; he is the only one who can bring it up.

1489.

The Chairperson: Mr Waage, our time is almost up, but I would like you to answer one question for the record. You have tenure of office of four years. Is that sufficient time?

1490.

Mr Waage: Around Europe there are different time limits on the office. In Norway you can have two terms - eight years altogether. All three of us who have held the office think that eight years is enough. You need to bring in new minds that think differently to keep it proactive and keep up dialogue with the young ones. Therefore, you need new people.

1491.

You also need the flexibility to have people in the office employed on a term basis, so that you can bring someone, like a deputy, in with you. When I came to do the job there was a set group in the office. One person did not like my vision of the work, and we came into conflict, which the newspapers revealed. You should look at how can you bring in someone that you can work with, because so much depends on a person's ability and vision.

1492.

Sweden has two terms of seven years, which is too long. You need three years to get on top of the job. It is a long climb. I came from the international environment, working with UNICEF and Childwatch International. My whole professional career has been in the field of children's issues, but I still felt that I belonged to a family with the researchers. You have to go through all the sectors and finally feel comfortable talking about health and the media, as I am doing today. You need two to three years to get warm and get an overview of the job. Then you can have four active years. We had a debate when the whole thing was elevated in 1995, and we ended up saying that eight years was a good time, not more not less.

1493.

The Chairperson: Thank you for coming to the Committee. I am sure that the evidence you have given will be very useful when we are drawing up our report. As I said earlier, we will try to learn from your mistakes and do the things that you have done right. We hope that we will catch up with you once we have our Children's Commissioner in place