Northern Ireland Assembly Flax Flower Logo

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE
RELATING TO THE REPORT

THURSDAY 22 JUNE 2000
IN ROOM 223, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present:
Dr IRK Paisley MP MEP MLA (Chairman)
Mr B Armstrong MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr J Dallat MLA
Mr D Ford MLA
Mr G McHugh MLA
Mr I Paisley Jnr. MLA

In attendance:
Mr M Wilson
Mr P Moore
Mr S Cowan
Mr E Vance

First Report: Retailing in Northern Ireland - A Fair Deal For The Farmer?

The draft report was read for the first time, paragraph by paragraph.

Title page, Contents and preamble read, amended and agreed.
Section 1 paragraphs 1.1 to 1.7 read and agreed.
Section 2 paragraph 2.1 read and agreed.
Section 2 paragraph 2.2 new paragraph to be inserted into report read and agreed.
Section 2 paragraphs 2.3 to 2.4 read and agreed.
Section 2 paragraph 2.5 new paragraph to be inserted into report read and agreed.

It was agreed in Sections 3 and 4 that the summaries of evidence given by each organisation should be prefaced by "(Name of Organisation) claimed that:".
Section 3 paragraphs 3.1 to 3.2.5 read and agreed.
Section 3 paragraph 3.2.6 read, amended and agreed.
Section 3 paragraphs 3.2.7 to 3.3.5 read and agreed.
Section 3 paragraph 3.2.6 read, amended and agreed.
Section 3 paragraphs 3.2.7 to 3.3.5 read and agreed.
Section 3 paragraph 3.3.6 read, amended and agreed.
Section 3 paragraph 3.3.7 read and agreed.
Section 4 paragraphs 4.1 to 4.2.2 read and agreed.
Section 4 paragraph 4.2.3 read, amended and agreed.
Section 4 paragraph 4.2.4 to 4.3 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.1 to 5.2 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.2.1 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.2.2 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.2.3 to 5.2.5 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.2.6 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.3 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.3.1 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.3.2 to 5.3.5 read, amended and agreed.

Ian R K Paisley MP MEP MLA
Chairman

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE
RELATING TO THE REPORT

FRIDAY 23 JUNE 2000
IN ROOM 135, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present:
Dr IRK Paisley MP MEP MLA (Chairman)
Mr G Savage MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Mr B Armstrong MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr J Dallat MLA
Mr D Ford MLA
Mr G McHugh MLA
Mr I Paisley Jnr. MLA

In attendance:
Mr M Wilson
Mr P Moore
Mr S Cowan
Mr E Vance

First Report: Retailing in Northern Ireland - A Fair Deal For The Farmer?

Section 5 paragraph 5.3.6 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.3.7 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.3.8 to 5.3.10 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.4 to 5.4.1 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.4.2 to 5.4.6 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.4.7 to 5.4.9 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.4.10 to 5.4.11 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.4.12 to 5.4.13 read and amended.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.4.14 to 5.4.18 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.5 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.5.1 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.5.2 to 5.5.11 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.5.12 to 5.5.13 read and removed from report.
Section 5 paragraph 5.5.14 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.5.15 to 5.5.16 read and amended.
Section 5 paragraph 5.5.17 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.6 to 5.6.1 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.6.2 to 5.6.5 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.6.6 to 5.5.7 read and agreed.
Section 5 paragraph 5.6.8 read, amended and agreed.
Section 5 paragraphs 5.6.9 to 5.6.10 read and agreed.
Section 6 paragraph 6.1 read, amended and agreed.
Section 6 paragraphs 6.2 to 6.5 read and agreed.
Section 6 paragraphs 6.6 to 6.9 read, amended and agreed.
Section 6 paragraph 6.10 read and agreed.

Ian R K Paisley MP MEP MLA
Chairman

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE
RELATING TO THE REPORT

MONDAY 26 JUNE 2000
IN ROOM 144, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present:
Dr IRK Paisley MP MEP MLA (Chairman)
Mr G Savage MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Mr B Armstrong MLA
Mr PJ Bradley MLA
Mr J Dallat MLA
Mr D Ford MLA
Mr G McHugh MLA
Mr I Paisley Jnr. MLA

In attendance:
Mr M Wilson
Mr P Moore
Mr S Cowan
Mr E Vance

First Report: Retailing in Northern Ireland - A Fair Deal For The Farmer?

Executive Summary paragraphs 1 to 9.1 read and agreed.
Executive Summary paragraph 10.1 read, amended and agreed.
Executive Summary paragraphs 10.2 to 13 read and agreed.
Executive Summary paragraphs 14.1 to 15.1 read, amended and agreed.
Executive Summary paragraph 15.2 read and agreed.
Executive Summary paragraph 15.3 read, amended and agreed.
Executive Summary paragraphs 16.1 to 17 read and agreed.

Resolved: that the Report as amended be the Report of the Committee; that written and oral evidence obtained from the following should be included:-

that relevant papers obtained from the following should be included:-

Ian R K Paisley MP MEP MLA
Chairman

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 11 February 2000

Members Present:

Rev Dr Ian Paisley (Chairman)
Mr Savage (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Armstrong
Mr Bradley
Mr Dallat
Mr Douglas
Mr Ford
Mr Kane
Mr McHugh
Mr Molloy
Mr Paisley Jnr

Witnesses:

Mr D Anderson and Mr A Payce-Drury (CWS),
Mr G McLornan and Mr J Nugent (Dunnes Stores),
Mr D Gibson, Mr E Lunny and Dr C Brown (Marks and Spencer),
Mr E McGettigan, Mr N Briggs, Ms S Gilroy,
Mr E Taggart and Mr N McGregor (Musgrave Super Valu-Centra),
Mr K Hawkins (Safeway),
Mr M Brecknell and Ms C Scullard (Sainsbury's)
Mr C Kells, Mr P Timoney and Ms G Cockcroft (Tesco)
Mr A Wilson (Wilson's Country Ltd)
Mr C McKillop (Glens of Antrim Potatoes)

1. The Chairman: Good morning and welcome to this meeting of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. We have with us representatives of the seven major food retailers in Northern Ireland: CWS, Dunnes, Marks & Spencer, Musgrave Super Valu-Centre, Safeway, Sainsbury's and Tesco. We will begin by calling on Belfast Co-Operative Society to make a presentation.

Presentation by CWS

2. Mr Anderson: The statement on behalf of the Co-operative Wholesale Society (CWS) and its Northern Ireland subsidiary reads as follows:

3. The Co-op began trading in Northern Ireland 110 years ago as the Belfast Co-operative Society, which became part of CWS in 1983. We currently operate 31 stores and have a head office and a distribution centre at Carrickfergus. Procurement is undertaken by a centralised buying office in Manchester. We spend approximately £18 million a year in Northern Ireland on produce subsequently sold here and a further £18 million on produce that is shipped to the UK mainland for sale there. CWS Farms Group is the largest farmer in the UK, farming some 80,000 hectares. As a result we are acutely aware of the crisis in the farming industry. That is why my colleague from Manchester and I are with you this morning.

4. CWS Retail procures the vast majority of its potato and vegetable requirements for Northern Ireland stores from suppliers located in the Province. In the case of potatoes, the only products which are brought in from the mainland are those which cannot be sourced directly in Northern Ireland. These include new potatoes out of season; we get these from Italy during the Christmas period and Egypt, which covers January to April, and conversely they take in our product during the home-grown season here.

5. CWS currently has two potato suppliers in Northern Ireland. Wilson's Country Ltd in Portadown supplies potatoes to stores via our internal distribution network from Carrickfergus. Brendan Robinson, from Bready in Strabane, supplies potatoes directly to local stores, mainly in the Fivemiletown, Irvinestown and Omagh areas. Price negotiations take place weekly between the account manager and the CWS buyer based in Manchester.

6. In the case of Brendan Robinson we have received only one application for a price change since September 1999. Specifications for the delivery of produce packed under the Co-op own brand label are tightly controlled and monitored by the CWS quality assurance manager; these include varieties which are deemed suitable for pre-packing for ultimate fresh consumption.

7. The list of acceptable varieties for the Northern Ireland supply differs significantly from that offered for sale on the UK mainland. It is designed to reflect local preferences with the inclusion of varieties such as Red Rooster, Kerr's Pink and British Queen, which are not commonly seen on the UK mainland. However, it should be noted that sales of these varieties are not strong, and they are outperformed by sales of more widely recognised varieties.

8. Our suppliers are committed to supplying locally produced products in line with CWS policy, as long as the product is of sufficient quality to meet the product specification. It is, of course, a matter of good economic sense to source produce locally to cut down the expense of transport. It is not CWS policy, in any area of our trading, including Northern Ireland, to use the term "packed in" rather than the true country of origin for the produce.

9. In order to comply with the CWS code of practice, CWS packaging clearly states the origin of the produce, the name of the variety; supplier codes, display and till codes, and a supplier traceability code. In addition to the procurement of potatoes from Northern Ireland we have a policy of sourcing produce from a point as close to its point of consumption as is possible, taking account of all logistical, economic and technical factors involved. To this end, other agricultural produce is sourced from the following places: Hughes Mushrooms in Dungannon, Sparty Pac from Comber, Co Down, Robipak from Newtownabbey, Co Antrim, Fyffes from Balmoral Road in central Belfast, Willowbrook Farms Produce from Killinchy near Newtownards, and Clonmore Farms from Dungannon, Co Tyrone. These include locally produced vegetables, prepared salads and vegetables and imported fruit products. Hughes Mushrooms supplies 100% of the requirements of the Northern Irish stores and also the largest proportion of the requirements of mainland-based Co-op Societies.

10. The Chairman: A top Assembly researcher has given us information that I would like you to comment on. He says that while it is difficult to match the different items, it is clear from the data that farmgate prices in the UK have fallen significantly while retail prices have generally increased. In the one area where there was a major fall in retail prices - unprocessed potatoes, with a 27% fall - there is notably a much larger fall on the corresponding producer price - root crops, 39%. It seems that the fall in prices paid to farmers is not reflected by the prices that consumers pay in the shops. He goes on to say that producer prices for Northern Ireland have suffered an even greater overall fall, 27%, between 1995 and 1998, compared with a 22% fall in the UK producer prices over that period. As UK retail prices also apply to Northern Ireland, this suggests that the disparity between farmgate and retail prices is greater in Northern Ireland. Please comment on that.

11. Mr Anderson: I will ask my colleague to answer that.

12. Mr Chairman: For the record, please give your name and where you are from.

13. Mr Payce-Drury: My name is Alex Payce-Drury, I am the head of category buying for fresh fruit and vegetables for CWS in Manchester. Were you specifically referring to potatoes?

14. The Chairman: Yes.

15. Mr Payce-Drury: In CWS the retail price deflation reflects the cost price deflation. Prices are cheaper in the UK mainland market and, therefore, the price at the farm gate in the UK mainland has fallen much faster than it has in Northern Ireland.

16. The Chairman: It has been argued that Northern Ireland farmers are receiving less money for produce, business is not doing well, and income is catastrophically low. However the housewife complains that she still pays as much, if not more, for the food in the shops. We are trying to establish where the difficulty lies and where the increase is going. It is not going to the farmer and, given the prices that she has to pay, it is not going to the housewife. Would you like to comment on that?

17. Mr Payce-Drury: I would repeat that retail prices have fallen in line with cost prices. It is true that the farmer is not getting as much money this year as he got last year. This is because the potato yield has increased and the market capacity for potatoes has not. This year's total UK potato yield is 7 million tonnes, which is half a million tonnes more than last year. Therefore the market is over-supplied and the prices to the farmer are deflated, but so are the retail prices.

18. The Chairman: Mr Anderson, what are the net profit margins in the retail industry, and could you give a simple example in your reply?

19. Mr Anderson: All of our buying is done centrally and so my colleague, Mr Payce-Drury, would be better qualified to answer that question.

20. Mr Payce-Drury: Sorry, Mr Chairman, would you please repeat the question?

21. The Chairman: What are the net profit margins in the retail industry, and could you give us a simple example?

22. Mr Payce-Drury: I am not able to give you a simple example. The Co-op retail trading group serves about 1,900 small stores from Fivemiletown to the Firth of Forth and the Scilly Isles, and our costs do not relate necessarily to the general retail trade - we are quite different in that respect. If you wanted to know the net return I would have needed notice of that question. So I cannot answer it.

23. The Chairman: Perhaps you would write to the Committee giving the information?

24. Mr Payce-Drury: Indeed, I will do that.

25. The Chairman: Thank you very much, we appreciate that. How do prices paid to producers and the margins from sales in Northern Ireland compare to those in England, Scotland and Wales? Are higher profits being taken from the Northern Ireland market?

26. Mr Payce-Drury: No, in fact - as I said earlier - the prices paid in Northern Ireland are demonstrably higher than they are in UK mainland. Northern Ireland is, in fact, an expensive Province for potatoes. One has to pay a higher price in Northern Ireland for various reasons not least of which concerns yields which are not the same as in the UK mainland.

27. The Chairman: Regardless of middlemen, do retailers feel a responsibility for Northern Ireland's primary producers or are they content that they can source the produce from elsewhere if elements of the industry contract or fold?

28. Mr Payce-Drury: We are on both sides of this argument. As major producers, we can understand the crisis in the farming industry. We face it every day. Our main responsibility is to the primary producers. It is our policy, wherever possible, to work directly with the producer; and our policy in Northern Ireland, as it is in most of the other regions of the United Kingdom, is to purchase as close as possible to the final point of consumption.

29. The Chairman: Thank you. I look forward to receiving that other information in due course. I call on the Deputy Chairman, George Savage, to put some questions to you.

30. Mr Savage: I am a farmer and I live in the middle of an area where there are quite a number of potato farmers who feel that they are getting a harsh deal. Profits to supermarkets, and profits everywhere, have remained the same but the profits of the farming industry have dropped tremendously over past years. Farmers feel that there has to be some common ground.

31. What value of local business is bought locally and what value of goods sold in stores elsewhere is sourced in Northern Ireland? The Co-op has said that is spends £18 million in Northern Ireland on produce which is subsequently sold here, and a similar amount on produce which is shipped to the mainland. Our primary aim is to protect Northern Ireland farmers and we feel that the supermarkets should protect the farming industry more. What are you doing to show farmers that they are getting a fair crack of the whip?

32. Mr Anderson: I have already stressed that the £18 million is on one specific commodity which is fresh produce. As a company, we have for many years gone out of our way to ensure that we support all local producers, and we advertise that in our stores. For example, all of our fresh meat is sourced in the Province, and Northern Ireland Co-op and CWS as a parent company, certainly deem local producers to be important. We support local producers throughout the country, and probably more so in this particular Province that in other areas of Scotland, England, Wales or wherever. I cannot give you a total figure at the moment but it is quite substantial, and we intend to continue to support local producers.

33. Mr Savage: The primary issue is about price versus profits. The prices paid to farmers have dropped yet the prices that the housewife pays and supermarket profits have not dropped. That is the nub of the question.

34. Mr Payce-Drury: I would not agree that supermarket profits have not dropped. That is certainly - and lamentably in our case - not true.

35. The Chairman: Right, there would be a big argument about that. Thank you very much. We now come to Dunnes Stores and Mr McLornan.

Presentation by Dunnes Stores

36. Mr McLornan: I would like to give you a short background on Dunnes Stores. Our first store was in Bangor in 1971, and we now have 26 stores in the Province, 16 of which are food stores. So, we have been around for almost 30 years. During that time we have been very supportive of growers and we have formed relationships with some very good companies, namely: O'Kane Poultry Ltd, Dungannon Meats (Retail Packs) Ltd, Wilson's Country Ltd.

37. The Chairman: Excuse me, would you stand back a little from the table as the microphones are in a strange position. The Speaker made this arrangement. We would have arranged things differently. If we use this Chamber again we will make sure there is more accommodation, and a place for you to leave your papers. So, if you have any grouse about that you may see the Speaker of the House. Give him an earful and we will not worry about that. I am sorry for interrupting.

38. Mr McLornan: I could also mention Golden Cow and Ballyrashane Dairies, among numerous others. We were one of the first supermarket groups in the Province to join the quality assurance scheme in conjunction with the livestock marketing meat companies. We were one of the first to launch a "support the locals" campaign, in which we recognised the calibre of supplies and produce available in Northern Ireland. May I give you a handout?

39. The Chairman: Yes.

40. Mr McLornan: In the handout you will find a statement from our Chief Operating Officer. It is his belief that if Dunnes can source its products locally, it should not have to look elsewhere. And at a time when indigenous produces and local brand names have been finding it increasingly difficult to meet the economies of scale often demanded by new players in the market place, Dunnes Stores has continued to recognise the calibre and quality of Northern Ireland suppliers.

41. We have two suppliers of potatoes: one is Vitafresh in Newry and the other is Wilson Potatoes in Portadown. We source 90% of our potatoes in Northern Ireland. There is a gap between seasons, and during this period we have to import potatoes from Cyprus and Great Britain. Social trends have contributed to a shrinking of the potato market: we no longer eat potatoes seven days a week; people are eating out more; families are smaller, the convenience market is growing. People are now eating more pasta, curry and rice, and we have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of salads being consumed. Our policy is to source vegetables, where possible, from growers in Northern Ireland.

42. The Chairman: Perhaps you would like to sit down now - the microphones are not as good as the Speaker told us they were.

43. Mr McLornan: Most of the vegetables we sell come from Northern Ireland. We also export a lot of vegetables to the Republic of Ireland. I have here the sourcing policies from all of our major wholesalers. We are buying goods from Sam Long in Comber, Foyle Pack in Londonderry, Raymond Anderson in Saintfield, and we are negotiating with a new company called Clonmore Growers in Dungannon. We also deal with James McKee. All of these products are exported to the Republic of Ireland to be sold in our stores there.

44. In the dairy sector of our business we have three suppliers for milk and cream. We source 100% of our milk and eggs in Northern Ireland. We use two local suppliers so that 100% of our products is sources in Northern Ireland. In total, we buy £5.2 million worth of dairy produce from Northern Ireland.

45. We have three suppliers of meat; I mentioned one earlier, Dungannon Meats Ltd, with whom we have built a long-standing relationship. The others are Oakdale Meats Ltd and S & M Meats, which is a small business based in Castlewellan. Recently we have listed a new company from Fermanagh called Tenderlean Meats Ltd from which we purchase pork and lamb produce. We also purchase from Dungannon Meats Ltd, Oakdale Meats Ltd and S & M Meats, all of which is sourced in Northern Ireland. Dunnes Stores Ltd has five suppliers of pork and spends £5 million per annum on pork produced in Northern Ireland.

46. With regard to poultry, 95% is sourced in Northern Ireland. Our main supplier is O'Kane Poultry Ltd, which is based in Ballymena. We gave O'Kane Poultry Ltd £3.2 million of business last year, and this does not include £12.6 million worth of products exported to the Republic of Ireland. Like my colleagues in the CWS I have not included vegetables or potatoes, but I can tell you that Dunnes Stores Ltd spent over £18 million on these products last year in Northern Ireland.

47. This concludes my presentation, Mr Chairman.

48. The Chairman: Thank you very much. I apologise for our arrangements, but I have been told that all presentations must be made from a seated position, so you can rest in your seats.

49. I put the following question to the previous witness, and I would like to hear your comments. Although it is difficult to match different items in the tables exactly, it is clear from the data that farmgate prices in the UK have fallen significantly while retail prices have generally increased. Producer prices for Northern Ireland have suffered an even greater overall fall than has been the case across the remainder of the United Kingdom: 27% between 1995 and 1998 compared with a 22% fall in the producer prices in Great Britain over the same period.

50. Since UK retail prices also apply to Northern Ireland this would suggest that the disparity between farmgate and retail prices is greater in Northern Ireland. Do you accept my statement?

51. Mr McLornan: Our prices are not the same as they were last year; our retail prices have actually come down. I am afraid, therefore, that my answer is similar to that given by CWS.

52. The Chairman: I also wish to put to you other questions which I put to the previous witness.

53. In general, what is the net profit-to-sales margin in the retail industry? Perhaps you would like to give us a simple example?

54. Mr McLornan: I would be pleased to do that, Mr Chairman - I do believe that we have been forthcoming, but, unfortunately, I was unaware that you wanted such figures. I will undertake to provide you with those subsequent to this meeting.

55. The Chairman: That would be most helpful.

56. Mr Ford: Most of the witnesses are from UK companies but you are clearly in a rather different position. Will you disclose what proportion of your food sales in the group as a whole is within Northern Ireland and compare it with the proportion of food which is sourced from within Northern Ireland?

57. Mr McLornan: I cannot do so at the moment. I would not wish to say that in front of my competitors. I am sure that they would not wish to provide such details to me. Perhaps I can provide a written answer to the question.

58. The Chairman: It will be kept confidential, for we understand we are dealing with sensitive matters. If you write to us in confidence, we will be in possession of your answer, but it will not be quoted or referred to.

59. Mr McLornan: Thank you.

60. The Chairman: Do you have a supplementary question?

61. Mr Ford: I have lost the thread slightly.

62. Mr McLornan: I am not trying to be evasive, incidentally.

63. Mr Ford: The term "sourcing" attracts widespread criticism from farmers. I was interested to see the label "Product of Northern Ireland" in your handout. Are you in a position to stand by that labelling in your shops, guaranteeing that it does not mean "Sourced in Northern Ireland" but actually "Grown" or "Produced in Northern Ireland"?

64. Mr McLornan: We are happy to do so. We would not have put it up otherwise.

65. Mr Ford: You talked in some of your figures about sourcing. When you use this term, can I take it that when you say "Sourced from local growers" you actually mean "Locally grown" as opposed to "Sourced from local wholesalers"?

66. Mr McLornan: The terminology was wrong in that case. It is locally grown produce.

67. Mr Ford: Are you satisfied that you can stand by the labelling policy?

68. Mr McLornan: Yes.

69. Mr Ford: Thank you.

70. Mr Kane: One extremely relevant question I should like to put to Mr McLornan is whether price changes by suppliers have been rapidly and fully passed on to consumers. A classic example was in 1998, when farmgate prices fell by a third to 155 per kilo. The price reduction on the part of retailers was 5%, cutting the price for customers to 564 per kilo. Secondly, in reference to local produce, do supermarkets primarily demand quality and availability? If this is the case, this Province wins hands down on both those criteria. If it is not quality or availability that accounts for low farmgate prices, tell us what does.

71. Mr McLornan: I should like to answer the second question. As I said in my introduction, we have been here for almost 30 years. We have dealt with extremely reputable companies, with whom we have built up long-lasting relationships. I believe I said that we recognise the quality of the product, which should answer your question, Mr Kane.

72. Mr Kane: Further to that point, quite apart from the middlemen, do retailers feel a responsibility to Northern Ireland's primary producers or are they content that they can source products from elsewhere if elements of the industry contract or fold?

73. The Chairman: I must ask you to remain seated. I am sorry for the inconvenience, but it is because of the microphones here. You are giving the representative from Hansard a headache, and we do not wish that.

74. Mr McLornan: I beg you pardon, could you repeat your question?

75. Mr Kane: Quite apart from the middlemen, do retailers feel a responsibility to Northern Ireland's primary producers or are they content that they can source products from elsewhere if elements of the industry contract or fold?

76. Mr McLornan: Once again, I believe we have demonstrated that the answer to the first part of the question is "Yes". As for the second part, there are obviously times - and I have demonstrated them to you - where there is seasonal change with products such as potatoes, and in those circumstances we do indeed have to look outside the Province. The Answer to the first part of your question is "Yes", however.

77. The Chairman: Now we come to Marks and Spencer.

Presentation by Marks and Spencer

78. Mr Gibson: Good morning. Marks and Spencer is proud of its long-term relationship with Northern Ireland. The first Marks and Spencer store in Belfast opened in Donegall Place in 1967. Thirty-three years on, Marks and Spencer has a significant retail operation in Northern Ireland with seven stores and a major distribution depot which between them directly employ over 1,600 people. We have invested over £65 million in this operation over the last five years.

79. Our food range has been particularly successful in Northern Ireland, with two of the stores here being among our top ten food stores in Europe. It is important to understand that the Marks and Spencer food business is very different from that of our high-volume supermarket competitors. We are not a supermarket, rather we are a food retailer who offers a range of highly innovative, high quality products that represent good value. We have under 3,000 lines of food while a supermarket would have between 20,000 and 30,000 lines. All of the products that we sell are own label, unique to Marks and Spencer, and supplied from a dedicated supply base. For this formula of food retailing to work we have to be a very customer-focused business. Marks & Spencer aspires to set leading standards in all it does. Our customers understand this and, rightly, demand outstanding quality and integrity in all our products.

80. For us to maintain our leading standards on foods, we must be highly innovative. Annually, we offer our customers over 1,200 new lines, equivalent to 40 products a day. It is our customers who decide if they are successful. To achieve this level of innovation we need a highly dedicated supply base that is prepared to work to the exacting standards our customers demand and which has the confidence to invest in the future of our business together.

81. Here in Northern Ireland, we have had great success in achieving this, combining our demanding standards with the expertise of the local agri-food sector. The clearest sign of this successful partnership is that the majority of our local suppliers have been working with Marks and Spencer for over 25 years. The amount of product that we buy from Northern Ireland is increasing, and there are several major developments in the pipeline to help to secure a good future. It is important to stress that our suppliers in Northern Ireland do not rely purely on the success of our local business. Three quarters of them also supply to the rest of our European business.

82. O'Kane Poultry Ltd, our Northern Irish poultry suppliers, started to supply us in 1967 with rural poultry for our first store. The ban on importing poultry from Great Britain at that time meant that the business was built on product ideas from mainland suppliers. Subsequently, it has moved successfully from being simply a rural poultry supplier into added value products, which are not sold across our European stores. Indeed, O:Kane's extremely high standards of innovation have been critical in achieving our pre-eminence in the chilled poultry business. Additionally, O'Kane has specialised in free-range turkeys for Marks and Spencer. All the free-range turkeys sold right across our food business last Christmas were supplied by O'Kane Poultry Ltd.

83. In the dairy sector, Dromona Quality Foods too developed an outstanding and unique range of butter for us. This development involved Dromona, a farming group, a Northern Irish university and a local research organisation. The resulting product now accounts for 60% of all Marks and Spencer's butter sales. Avondale Foods (Craigavon) Ltd started its business with Marks and Spencer 33 years ago as a basic produce supplier. Today, the vast majority of Avondale's business with us is in prepared and value-added products - such as sandwiches, prepared salads - in addition to its basic produce range. The majority of Avondale's products are now sold outside Northern Ireland, a particular highlight being our important traditional coleslaw products which are produced solely by Avondale for all our European business. The ingredients for these products are, as much as possible, sourced locally. Avondale is soon to launch a new range of products with us, and we are confident that that will continue its outstanding growth with Marks and Spencer.

84. With regard to potatoes, Wilson's Country Ltd has been supplying Marks and Spencer since 1967. Our stores offer a range of local varieties - such as Cultra and Kerr's Pink - along with other varieties such as Maris Piper and King Edward. We did previously offer other varieties, such as Pentland Dell, but these varieties did not sell well. The range of varieties we offer, and the space they have in our stores, is dictated by our customers' response to them. The Wilson's team has been challenged to procure as much of our potato range as possible locally, and it is having great success with this. This year Wilson's will double its business with Marks and Spencer, in both volume and value terms. It is important to understand that Marks and Spencer is not in the business of speculatively buying cheap potatoes, or any other product, to drive volume. We only sell premium quality potatoes. One of the limiting factors in Wilson's supplying Marks and Spencer is the limited amount of chilled storage available to it here. Its brief in Northern Ireland is quite simple - for as long as it can competitively supply the quality our customers demand, it gets the business. In addition, this year we will also sell some of Wilson's Irish potato varieties across the rest of our European business. We expect this to be a great success and a significant opportunity for Wilson's and its growers for the future.

85. The premium potato market has not seen the same level of deflation as the value market. Currently our potato products are significantly cheaper than last year and the margin policy of Marks & Spencer this year is consistent to that of last year. Marks & Spencer clearly labels all our potatoes by origin, not by where they are packed.

86. In summary, Marks & Spencer has been in partnership with Northern Ireland's agri-food sector for 40 years and has built an important retail operation over the last three decades. We are also involved in the community within Northern Ireland. We commit management time and company money to projects such as our exhibit at the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society annual show, and we assist in communities where we trade. We believe in forming lasting partnerships, working with our suppliers to develop new high-quality and innovative products to exceed our customers' expectations. We have every confidence that the Marks & Spencer business and that of our supply partners in Northern Ireland have a strong future, both in Northern Ireland and across the rest of our European business.

87. The Chairman: Producer prices for Northern Ireland have suffered an even greater overall fall than in the rest of the United Kingdom - 27% between 1995 and 1998, compared with a 22% fall in the rest of the United Kingdom. As United Kingdom retail prices also apply to Northern Ireland the disparity between farmgate and retail prices appears to be greater in Northern Ireland. Why is this?

88. Mr Gibson: In Marks and Spencer we do not pay the same price in Northern Ireland for our potatoes as we do on the mainland. We pay a higher price for our potatoes here than we do from our English growers.

89. The Chairman: What about other commodities?

90. Mr Gibson: In other commodities it varies according to what you are buying. It depends particularly on the market forces affecting that product.

91. The Chairman: It has been suggested very forcefully to us that the farmers' payments are reduced but the housewife is still paying the same or more. How do we get this disparity and who makes the money? Is it, as has been suggested, the marketing people - yourselves and your colleagues - who are making this money? If so, it would be fair in a crisis such as we have now to take steps to help the farmers stay in business rather than put them out of business.

92. Mr Gibson: The prices of potatoes in Marks & Spencer are not the same or more expensive than last year. The prices of our potato range are over a third cheaper than they were this time last year and the margin policy that we have this year is entirely consistent with last year. Only a percentage of the cost structure of a bag of potatoes in Marks & Spencer is the cost of the raw material, and that raw material price has come down, as has my selling prices. However, the cost of the overall retailing operation has not gone down - for example, the cost of packaging if anything, has gone up. Therefore there will be a disparity.

93. The Chairman: It has also been suggested to us that you should accept reduced margins rather than force low prices on producers that do not even cover the production of what they have for sale. Farmers tell us, and they have proved it positively, that they are receiving less money for what they produce than it takes to produce it. That is why there is a catastrophe in the farming industry. Can you take less and help to alleviate this present crisis?

94. Mr Gibson: May I ask Angus Wilson to respond because he has particular details on the prices that we pay.

95. Mr Wilson: In terms specifically to Marks & Spencer and in regard to producer returns, the product we procure for Marks & Spencer is not below the cost of production for local growers. The reason for this is that the Marks & Spencer consumer offer does not include value lines, and hence premium prices for premium product can be paid.

96. Mr McHugh: I would like to welcome all the retailers here today as well as the others who are in the business. We are trying to get information at present. We are talking about putting together a taskforce to try to put things right in the industry. You are all part of the industry as a whole. There seems to be a separation between the primary producer and those beyond the farmgate. Considering the amount of money that has gone into the industry, I would have thought that there would have been an interest in keeping the local industry going on the part of those who are making their incomes from it.

97. It was mentioned that Wilson's Country is a supplier for retailers. From whom do they source their potatoes? An external factor for farmers here is BSE, and the backdrop of that leaves them in a very difficult position. Marks & Spencer is huge here, in the UK and, in deed; further afield, when sourcing meat and other products do you demand the same high standards that Departments here are asking of farmers in respect of GM food and BSE-banned inputs?

98. In respect of labelling, consumers are not always clear on where a product comes from or what it contains. Can you clarify your position with regard to labelling? You also mentioned that the main thrust of your focus is the customer. Obviously, cheaper food and better value for the consumer are important points. I hope that I was not too long-winded.

99. Mr Gibson: I will make five brief responses to that. With regard to our relationship with primary agriculture, as I said during my presentation, over half the people we buy from in Northern Ireland have been working with us for over 25 years. These are long-term partnerships - mutually beneficial relationships - which we intend to continue.

100. Marks & Spencer have been very clear that we, as an own-label food retailer, do not sell any GM food, and we clearly label all our products by country of origin. We do not say "packed in" on any product. It is all labelled with the name of the country in which it was produced. Marks & Spencer's drive is not the value end of the market. Our products are good value, but our one driving force is quality. Finally, I would like to ask our meat technologist, Dr Chris Brown, to comment on what we are doing in the meat industry.

101. Dr Brown: Mr Gibson has covered labelling well. The system we use gives people a clear indication of where the product is from.

102. Mr McHugh: I have a question on the Wilson buyers.

103. The Chairman: The five minutes are up. In fact, I gave you two minutes over the time.

104. Mr Armstrong: A lot of supermarkets are supplied from a central store. Is that store in Northern Ireland?

105. Mr Gibson: We do not have a central store. We have a distribution depot in Hydepark.

106. Mr Armstrong: It is your responsibility to determine what products come to the store that are produce of Northern Ireland. Family-run farms take a pride in how they care for and feed their stock in order to produce food of the highest quality, and free from impurity. Many products on your shelves have their own label. Are you saying that whether products have their own label or your brand label does not matter because they are all produce of Northern Ireland, and consumers know that that is the origin? Is that correct?

107. Mr Gibson: When a product is procured from Northern Ireland it is clearly labelled as coming from Northern Ireland, and we have in-store promotions of local produce. We do it in Northern Ireland and Scotland and in other areas too.

108. Mr Armstrong: Do you source meat products from Northern Ireland because we are known to have the fewest instances of BSE?

109. Dr Brown: We do not want to make claims on instances of BSE to the customers, or to challenge the variations -

110. Mr Armstrong: But is that what you are thinking?

111. Dr Brown: We buy beef of various qualities. BSE is an issue on human health and related to the relevant authorities. We do not differentiate our sources on that basis. I do not want to talk in terms of English BSE versus Northern Irish BSE. That would be very dangerous.

112. Mr Armstrong: You would not challenge it because you want to give a quality product to your consumer, but are you thinking along those lines?

113. Dr Brown: The 200 farmers in our select farm scheme in Northern Ireland are producing a very fine quality product, and that is what we are selling on our shelves.

Presentation by Safeway

114. Mr Hawkins: In view of the time I will keep the PR content to a minimum. I want to address one or two of the more basic issues that have been raised, Mr Chairman.

115. We have been trading in this Province since 1997 when we formed our joint venture with Wellworth. We operate 12 stores and have a 13% share of the Northern Ireland grocery market. We sell approximately 1,400 branded and own-brand products, which are sourced here. Last year these products had a sales value of £200 million, and this year that will be higher because our sales are 15% up here on last year.

116. We have a strong commitment to primary producers - I am anticipating a question before you ask it. We have 100% local sourcing of a wide range of products, for example, meat, vegetables, salads, bread, milk and eggs. These are totally sourced here, and we have no plans to change that policy.

117. We recognise the constraints on farmers in Northern Ireland, and they are to some degree peculiar to this Province. It is a small domestic market. Primary producers work in small volumes. Because of the soil and climate they have lower yields, and costs are higher, in comparison with mainland costs. Therefore, that creates special problems for Northern Ireland. That said, the problems faced by farmers in Northern Ireland are very similar to those being faced by farmers on the mainland.

118. No one has talked much about the consumer and what is happening in the market place. Fundamentally we need to understand why the farmer finds himself in this position. The basic factor is that so much primary produce, produce such as fruit, vegetables and meat, are eaten less and less as time goes by.

119. Unfortunately supply has not adjusted to meet demand. There is too much product chasing too few customers. You may say that we should cut prices and thus stimulate demand - the fact is that our prices have been dropping. There has been deflation in produce over the last couple of years. The prices of potatoes have dropped by about 50% over the last year. If low prices alone could stimulate consumption, why are pig farmers facing a market situation in which their product is at a historically low price. It is now cheaper than it was 20 years ago, yet consumption is still dropping. Something is happening in the market place which is intruding on all our calculations.

120. In these circumstances farmers, in both the mainland and Northern Ireland, and irrespective of their market would like two things - higher, guaranteed volumes from supermarkets, or from the processors who stand between them and the supermarkets, and higher and assured prices. Unfortunately, retailers cannot deliver either of those objectives. It would require a level of organisation on the retail side, which is not possible, and even if it were, it would not be allowed by the competition authorities.

121. There are a number of constructive things that we are presently doing. We have encouraged our produce suppliers to join the Assured Produce Scheme, which has been running on the mainland since 1997. This is about controlling the use of pesticides, raising quality and having one agreed independent body to determine standards for the whole industry. That reassures the consumer.

122. We also take our Northern Ireland suppliers over to the mainland to see how the bigger operators over there organise their business and share some best practices in efficiency gains. We encourage our suppliers to develop new products, and we work closely with them in this. We have had some remarkable successes in the last two years in bringing new products to market from local suppliers. We can open our shelves to more locally grown products, and we involve our local suppliers in helping to plan the space allocation in our stores so it is best attuned to the needs of our customers. The effect of all this has been to help our smaller suppliers to improve their efficiency and achieve more consistent quality standards.

123. Working more closely with our suppliers is the soundest and most productive strategy for the future, sharing information and trying to develop as co-operative a climate as we can - not pointing the finger at one another and accusing each other of profiteering.

124. We need to understand the position of the middleman, who has not figured much in discussions this morning. The main reason that Northern Ireland housewives are paying more for potatoes is that the market is smaller and the costs of preparation and packing for the middle-men, in our case the Glens of Antrim, are considerably higher than for their equivalent on the mainland. That is not profiteering on their part, it is a fact of life working in the Province. We should encourage farmers to co-operate more together and form collectives, so that they can get more leverage out of their relationships with the middleman.

125. The Chairman: You say that in Scotland and England the middleman has less to spend to get the product ready for market. Why is that? Why do our people have to pay more? Surely this is a potato country, and we have the produce at hand?

126. Mr Hawkins: As I said in my letter to the Committee, scale economies really do drive efficiencies and profits in food, as much as in any other product. A large Scottish supplier who is selling potatoes not just in Scotland but also in England and who has a long-term relationship with one of the big supermarkets is going to have a much lower cost base. The supplier will be able to drive efficiencies in his cost base, and therefore, ultimately benefit the final consumer. If you are working in a small market like Glens of Antrim Potatoes and the other Northern Ireland processors are, you do not have those economies of scale: you have a much higher cost, and you have to work within that.

127. The Chairman: I must put to you the question I put to your colleagues. Our constituents want to know why the retailers cannot drop their prices in line with falling farmgate prices? There is no doubt that farmers are producing things that cost more to produce than they are getting for them. Take bull calves: I was on a farm yesterday where there were seven bull calves. Anywhere else in the UK they would be worth maybe £80 apiece, but that farmer is shooting them - shooting them - because they are worth nothing. It is a terrible tragedy.

128. Farmers are getting nothing at the farmgate to bring them out of this awful dark hole that they are in, and we are trying to find ways of alleviating this situation. We have some things in mind that the Government should be doing, but I want to ask you if you are going to continue to have high prices, or will you accept reduced margins rather than force low prices on producers.

129. Mr Hawkins: I would like to make two points. First, it is dangerous to generalise about what farmers are getting or not getting, because across produce and meat, we have a range of different markets, with different conditions in each. My colleague from the Co-op referred to the specific problem of potatoes. The situation with regard to potatoes is currently particularly difficult. We are comparing a bumper crop this year - and the consequences of that for prices - with a shortage last year. Within a few months there has been a 180-degree swing in prices and conditions in that market.

130. To repeat the figures I quoted in my letter to the Committee, our retail price for a 2·5kg bag of white potatoes in Northern Ireland has fallen by 50% over the last 9 or 10 months. The price that we pay our processor, Glens of Antrim Potatoes, has fallen by only 38%. In other words, we have taken a hit in our margin. We have not taken such a hit in Scotland, because our suppliers there have economies of scale that have enabled them to reduce their prices in full. We have been pro-rate there but not in Northern Ireland. To say that we have not cut our prices on potatoes in the last year or so is obviously quite untrue.

131. The Chairman: What is the percentage of potatoes that are being imported, as against the potatoes that the farmers cannot get rid of?

132. Mr Hawkins: I can answer only for our business. Ninety-five percent of the potatoes we sell in Northern Ireland come from one local supplier. The other 5% come from our Scottish supplier. We do not import potatoes.

133. The Chairman: Surely you are aware that potatoes are being imported.

134. Mr Hawkins: Other people must answer that question.

135. Mr Douglas: I am glad to hear you talking about being constructive and working with the farmers; I know that that is happening in the Glens of Antrim. Farmers are going to have to work together in the future. One of the main problems currently facing the farming community is the low level of farmgate prices that cannot really be sustained on the land.

136. It is not only the potato sector that is suffering - all sectors are. The farmers have lost control of the markets, and they are at the mercy of those who are buying their produce. We are only looking for a fair price and a level playing field, and I am glad to see that 95% of your potatoes are from Northern Ireland. However, out of season potatoes are being imported, and that is being abused in some ways. It has become increasingly easy to bring these potatoes in in container loads. I would like to put my questions to some of the other people here today rather than to you, for this is being abused; imported potatoes in the early season or late season affect the market. Would you comment on the 5%? Are you able to control it, and is it a true figure?

137. Mr Hawkins: Yes, absolutely.

138. Mr Douglas: As I said, I would prefer to be putting my questions to somebody else, because I know that people selling potatoes to Safeway are getting a reasonable price through "Glens of Antrim Potatoes". Others are being offered as little as £20 per tonne. Taking account of the bags, they are getting nothing for them, so they might as well be feeding them to their stock. I have been offered £15 per tonne for good potatoes - it is a big problem in agriculture.

139. We are only looking for a level playing field. I am glad that your company is being constructive; that is good, and I hope that the other companies represented will do likewise.

140. The Chairman: Perhaps that question could be put to Mr Wilson because he is in that part of the business.

141. Mr Wilson: Could it be repeated please? I thought I was off duty.

142. The Chairman: That is OK - briefly please.

143. Mr Douglas: Some of the companies which are processing or packing the potatoes in Northern Ireland are getting them from your company and similar ones. We are not sure that all your potatoes are from Northern Ireland; we are almost certain that they are not. That causes deep concern because there are good potatoes in Northern Ireland this year, with a good skin finish, suitable for the supermarket shelves. We are aware that potatoes are more easily packed on the mainland and that they can come in more cheaply. However, it is sad that companies such as yours are bringing in potatoes when the farmers here have many tonnes of potatoes available. They are not even getting cost price for them; they need around £50 a tonne to cover costs. We are deeply concerned. What is your response to that?

144. The Chairman: Some people are currently having to sell at £20 per tonne

145. Mr Wilson: I source potatoes as close to home as I can, based on the quality required by my customers. I do not want to pay £30 a tonne to bring potatoes in from Great Britain unless the quality at home is not high enough, because that would destroy any profit margins for Wilson's Country Ltd. The bottom line is that we do not want to import potatoes.

146. Mr Douglas: But you, and others, do bring them in. Many people are bringing them in, and that is causing deep concern to the farming community. Farmers would like £50 per tonne for their potatoes - just to get rid of them. The problem is that they are getting nothing because of the potatoes coming in from the mainland.

147. Mr Wilson: The only potatoes coming in are of a quality that is not available in Northern Ireland. No potatoes are coming to replace potatoes that are being sold for £50 a tonne. There is probably a three - or four-times oversupply of that quality of potato in Northern Ireland at present, as there is throughout Great Britain and elsewhere.

148. The Chairman: Perhaps members will want to challenge some of those assertions when they reach the open question session.

149. Mr Dallat: My question is neither a history lesson nor a plug for a rival. However, I am very conscious that Safeway took over part of a long established company, Wellworths, which had shown remarkable loyalty to local producers over the years. SuperValu, the part of the company that Safeway did not take over, has demonstrated a commitment to Northern Ireland by becoming involved in industry initiatives, including sponsorship, bursaries and supplier partnerships. Will Safeway, or any of the other retailers here today, consider similar initiatives? They certainly increase people's enthusiasm for the retailer.

150. Mr Hawkins: As I said in my evidence, the principle of closer working relations with suppliers in order to understand our customers better is critical to all our operations. Whether we formally call them supplier partnerships with a capital "s" and a capital "p" does not really matter.

151. The principles involved are well understood and are being practised. Frankly, it makes good business sense to do so. You do not have to wrap yourself in a flag. It is there. You have to understand the market.

152. With regard to sponsorship, we do sponsor a number of activities - though we do not always shout about it. Could we do more? We could do more if we had more funds, but our profits, I regret to say, are down 40% this year compared to last year.

153. Mr Chairman, to answer a question that you still have not had an answer to, our average net margin to sales is 5%, which is slightly less than it was a couple of years ago. The major food retailers in the UK are making an average net margin to sales of between 5% and 6%, and the trend is either static in some cases or downwards in others.

154. The Chairman: Thank you for that answer. We will now have the Sainsbury's presentation.

Presentation by Sainsbury's

155. Mr Brecknell: We welcome the opportunity to attend this Committee hearing.

156. We are concerned about the agriculture environment in Europe, in the UK and especially in this Province. We welcome the debate on the potato industry, and we appreciate this opportunity to present Sainsbury's case.

157.I do not intend to go line by line over the paper that we sent to the Committee earlier this week. I will just expand certain points and bring them to your attention. Sainsbury's has 100 suppliers in Northern Ireland supplying fresh produce and product in-store to our stores in the Province and in the rest of the United Kingdom. Sainsbury's is committed, over the next few years, to almost doubling the value of its existing Northern Ireland sourced business from £120 million to between £150 million and £200 million. About 150,000 customers shop in the stores each week.

158. In the Province, Sainsbury's obtains its potatoes from Glens of Antrim Potatoes in Cushendall, County Antrim. It employs 35 people and supplies potatoes to all Sainsbury's stores in the Province. The business is worth around £1 million. Ninety per cent of all potatoes sold in our stores originate from Northern Ireland, and the remaining 10% are primarily from outside the UK. Customers now require new potatoes throughout the year. We are currently selling Israeli new potatoes, we are about to start selling Egyptian potatoes and after that we will be selling Jersey potatoes. When we opened our Forestside store, it sold more Jersey potatoes that year than any other Sainsbury's store. Therefore there is a local demand, and the consumer is leading that demand. We have, in total, seven Sainsbury's supermarkets in the Province.

159. With regard to the background of sourcing our produce in Northern Ireland, Sainsbury's is committed to United Kingdom agriculture. We work with the farmers to ensure that high quality value-for-money food is available to the consumer. Like all supermarkets, we do not buy direct from farmers. We buy meat from processors and fruit, vegetables and salads from packers and pre-packers.

160. Prior to Sainsbury's announcement in June 1995 regarding its development plans for seven stores across Northern Ireland, the company sourced £80 million of produce per year from 17 local suppliers. Sainsbury's is committed to doubling the value of its existing business sourced from Northern Ireland, to between £150 million and £200 million over the next few years. The value is now £120 million, as I said earlier.

161. We have 100 suppliers in Northern Ireland supplying fresh produce and product in-store to the Province and to the rest of the United Kingdom. No company is too small to supply Sainsbury's.

162. One example is a very small husband-and-wife farming company in the Province, Milgrow at Limavady, who supply us with onions.

163. It makes sound commercial sense to maximise local purchase for supply to our outlets in the Province, particularly on produce where there are both cost and freshness benefits in not having to transport goods several hundred miles from the mainland. Although there is a strong demand in the Province for local products, we share the General Consumer Council's view that consumers here will buy local products only if they represent good value for money and good quality.

164. To increase the supply opportunities available to local producers Sainsbury's has been proactive in sourcing product from Northern Ireland including holding three "meet the buyer" sourcing conferences. The first was held in Belfast in 1995, and smaller events were held in Londonderry in 1996 and in Newry in May 1998. Potential suppliers met Sainsbury's buyers on a one-to-one basis to talk about supplying opportunities.

165. In November 1999 Sainsbury's, along with the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce, ran a seminar for smaller companies in that area to highlight supplying opportunities with Sainsbury's both in Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom.

166. Three Northern Ireland companies, Glens of Antrim Potatoes, Sparky Pac and Hughes Mushrooms became the first Northern Ireland Partners in Produce when Sainsbury's launched its Partners in Produce initiative in Northern Ireland in November 1997. Partners benefit by the partnership providing them with a planned market for their produce and the security of a financially-sound trading relationship so that growing and packing can be planned against clear sales programmes and have the back-up of Sainsbury's technological and research expertise.

167. As regards Northern Ireland suppliers and wider opportunities, a number of Northern Ireland companies who have become suppliers to Sainsbury's since the company began trading in Northern Ireland have subsequently become suppliers to Sainsbury's on the mainland. These include Tayto (NI) Ltd in respect of crisps, Farm Fed Chickens, W D Irwin & Sons Ltd in respect of bread, Morrow Food Products in respect of paté and Hughes mushrooms.

168. I emphasise that size is not a barrier to supplying the mainland market. Sainsbury's has sourced products from Dungannon Meats Ltd and Denny Henry & Sons (NI) Ltd and oysters from Cuan Sea Fisheries Ltd for around 20 years prior to developing stores in Northern Ireland. Farm Fed Chickens from Coleraine, which is Sainsburys' only source of corn-fed chicken, has almost doubled its business with Sainsbury's since 1997, and it recently won an additional contract expected to be worth £5 million annually to supply its premium range of corn-fed chicken to the company's top 70 stores. Hughes Mushrooms will triple its business with Sainsbury's over the next 18 months to around £5 million a year.

169. We are committed to supporting the local farming industry and have been labelling meat and fruit and vegetables as home-produced for many years. Produce from Northern Ireland is marked "Product of Northern Ireland", and it is very clear on the label. By the middle of this year we will have labelling of origin on the remaining fresh meat products, which include ready meals, sandwiches and delicatessen products.

170. We are seeking to extend regionality across the United Kingdom, and products from Northern Ireland will be incorporated into this policy. Any future labelling will be as simple as possible for ease of recognition and will be designed with the customer in mind.

171. As regards Sainsbury's margins and pricing policy, the Institute of Grocery Distribution recently announced the results of a survey into consumers' attitudes to food, prices and profits. It found that consumers had exaggerated views about profit levels. Consumers thought an average of 36p in every pound spent in food shops went in profit to retailers and 26p to manufacturers. The actual figures are around 6·5p and 8·5p. Therefore, manufacturers' profits are proportionately higher.

172. A large proportion of the costs which arise between farmgates and the retail shop include the costs of sale and transport, processing, packing, distribution and retailing. Retailing costs include the cost of promotion -

173. The Chairman: You have one minute left.

174. Mr Brecknell: The current potato deflation is 40%. We are consumer-led, and we have to recognise that after quality, our consumers rate choice as their top priority. Also, customers want products all the year round, whether they are from the United Kingdom or imported.

175. Since Sainsbury's first announced its intention to invest in Northern Ireland, the company has been working with community groups and charities large and small. This diversity reflects Sainsbury's strengths, not just as a company but also as a business which is rooted firmly in the community.

176. The Chairman: Sainsbury's sells fresh vegetables from Northern Ireland, but what percentage of frozen foods from Northern Ireland does the company sell?

177. Mr Brecknell: I would have to get back to you on that.

178. The Chairman: Perhaps those present might take a note of that. We would be grateful if you could supply the Committee with the percentage of fresh and frozen foods for sale in Sainsbury's.

179. Mr Paisley Jnr: First of all, Mr Brecknell, I hope that you can provide me with some statistics. How many lines in total does Sainsbury's sell in its stores? How many of these lines are sourced exclusively in Northern Ireland and how many in the Republic of Ireland?

180. Mr Brecknell: We have around 20,000 lines in our stores. Of these about 1,000 are sourced in Northern Ireland and 300 in the Republic of Ireland. These are primarily perishable products, as a lot of the lines that we sell are grocery and non-perishable products such as Kellogg's cornflakes and Heinz soups.

181. Mr Paisley Jnr: Do you have a target to which you intend to increase the 1,000 products sourced exclusively in the Province? You source perhaps less than 1% of products in Northern Ireland. How do you intend to increase that to 20% or 30%?

182. Mr Brecknell: If possible, we would like to source 100% of perishable goods in the Province.

183. Mr Paisley Jnr: Do you have a target date for that?

184. Mr Brecknell: I will answer that in writing.

185. Mr Paisley Jnr: There is a perception - indeed a theory - that Sainsbury's has not put enough back into Northern Ireland's economy since it started trading here. I hope that you can debunk this suspicion by buying more of Northern Ireland's goods. I would like to know if the goods which you are sourcing in Northern Ireland are in proportion to the increased profit that your company is making.

186. Mr Brecknell: That may not always be possible, but we are doing our utmost to ensure that we maximise the number of products which we source in the Province.

187. Mr Bradley: Mr Brecknell, since setting up in Northern Ireland, Sainsburys has found that UK policy is not ideally suited to Northern Ireland, as producer and consumer are more interdependent here. Can you give us some idea of what short-term and long-term plans you have to implement a regional policy for Northern Ireland?

188. Mr Brecknell: We do have a regional policy for Northern Ireland: every product sourced here is clearly labelled "Product of Northern Ireland". We intend to extend that policy to all areas of the United Kingdom - for example Scotland, Kent, and Cornwall. We intend to ensure that products sold on the mainland clearly state that Northern Ireland is their country of origin - there is a code to identify them as such at the moment. We intend to extend the label that we use in the Province at the moment to the United Kingdom, so that customers on the mainland can see that these products are from Northern Ireland.

189. Mr Bradley: If you were giving this presentation in Scotland today, would you be saying the same thing?

190. Mr Brecknell: Yes. In that case we would use the label "Product of Scotland". We are trying to be fair to everyone.

191. Mr Bradley: The Committee is only concerned with Northern Ireland.

192. Mr Brecknell: We are trying to be fair to every supplier from whom we purchase in a particular area and fair also to the consumers to whom we are selling.

193. Mr Bradley: It would be dangerous to subscribe to Tony Blair's belief that there is no agricultural crisis. We do have an agricultural crisis.

194. Mr Brecknell: We fully understand the farming crisis, and we sympathise but we find, as you do, that there is no simple answer.

195. Mr Bradley: The cost of promotions is passed back down to the producer thereby squeezing the margins. Is there something that you can do about this?

196. Mr Brecknell: Not all of the cost is passed back to the producer. Perhaps Mr McKillop would like to comment. We agree to promotions and often, if the producer wishes it, we will share the cost of the promotion.

197. Mr Bradley: On a fifty-fifty basis?

198. Mr Brecknell: No. It might be 70% to us and 30% to the supplier. The supplier would then negotiate with his growers; we do not have direct contact with them.

199. Mr McKillop: That is correct.

200. The Chairman: The next presentation is from SuperValu.

Presentation by Musgrave Supervalu-Centra

201. Mr McGettigan: Thank you, Mr Chairman. First, may I say that my organisation is different from the others here today; it is a partnership of family retailers. Unlike the retail chains my organisation is made up of hundreds of family businesses and family shops throughout the Republic of Ireland and, in the last few years, also in the North of Ireland.

202. It was formed in 1876 by two brothers from Fermanagh. It remains a private company and is owned by the descendants of those two brothers. Throughout those 125 years our mission has been to help the family-owned shop survive in the face of competition from large supermarket chains. This has become a much more difficult task in the last 30 years, although we have been very successful in the Republic of Ireland where the independent share of the market has grown by over 50% in the last 10 years. This has prevented the widespread proliferation of large supermarkets and their attendant purchasing power.

203. We believed that there was an opportunity to do the same thing for independent retailers in the North of Ireland, and so we bought the other half of Wellworths. Our plan is to sell it to family businesses throughout Northern Ireland. Many Members here today will, no doubt, have such stores in their constituencies and will know the independent family businesses that run them.

204. Our mission has been difficult. Our retailer's profit margin varies between 2% and 3% and is not on the same scale as the 5% to 6% we heard of earlier. We have 50 stores. Most of them are owned by family businesses, and if anybody will buy the remainder - and we hope that they will - within the next couple of years they will all be owned by family businesses.

205. We have around £140 million of purchasing power in the North of Ireland of which about 60% to 65% is sourced locally. That includes everything from Kellogg's cornflakes to a carrot. Just over 70% of our produce are sourced in Northern Ireland, and our policy is to buy locally. We are not unique in that respect, but we are unique in following through on this policy.

206. One hundred per cent of beef, pork and lamb are locally-sourced as are all of our fruit and vegetables with the exception of the likes of bananas. Obviously they cannot be sourced locally, but they can be bought from local importers. We often pay a higher price in order to adhere to our policy, and we invest money and work along with the Ulster Farmers' Association and Queen's University to develop the Province's food industry which is under grave threat. In terms of giving expression to our policy we have a local buying team.

207. We have not dismantled our buying operation or centralised it anywhere, and we are therefore extremely close to local producers. We were amazed that there was so little brouhaha about things like the Bangor Maid shutdown last year where jobs were lost.

208. You asked some specific questions in the invitation, one being to do with the margins on potatoes in particular. Prices have fallen, and if one takes the margins as a percentage, there is no doubt that it looks as though the farmer is worse off than everyone else. Let us take the biggest-selling potato line we have, which is the 2·5 kilogram washed, white potato, which was £1.95 or £1.99, but is now 95p. Our customers, the family shopkeepers, used to make about 40p on that to cover their staff and running costs. Now they are making about 30p. We used to make about 18p in order to cover the costs of distribution and running our centre in Belfast. We now make about 9p on the potatoes.

209. You also asked if we have any quality-control criteria which neatly exclude locally sourced products. We do not, for that would run counter to our policy. Our quality-control specifications are more than met by the excellent quality of produce across the board in the North of Ireland. I am aware that we imported some pink potatoes through our packer last year as a result of blight, but I know that this was no more than 5% of our total potato sales. We have also started exporting from the North into the Republic of Ireland, and that business accounted for about £11 million of agricultural produce last year.

210. You asked about crisp manufacturing. We have own-label crisps, but unfortunately no one will buy them. Ninety-nine per cent of our crisps are branded products, and half of them are made here by Tayto. I do not know where they get their potatoes, Mr Chairman. They are, however, made here and certainly support local jobs. The other crisp suppliers are UK national brands like Walkers and so forth, but it has always been our policy to source locally, and we have no intention of changing that. This is not mere altruism, although that is a fine ideal, but common sense. Our shops are owned by people who live in the communities around them, and I would say we differ from other retailers in that, along with our customers, the people who own the shops have a vested interest in the survival of an agri-food business under threat.

211. You asked how we could address this threat. There is one of two things we can do. The retail sector can choose to be powerless, claiming that the consumer is its master and so forth, but I believe that we could be more proactive as an industry. We also have to examine the linkage I have pointed out between the independently owned shop and its interest, or that family's interest, in the survival of the farmer. Should we not therefore look at increasing opportunities for the success of the independent retailer? That would mean looking at how to constrain the proliferation of massive superstores and predatory pricing techniques designed to put small family shops out of business. Dealing with those two matters could redress the balance, introduce a level playing field, and put money back in the pockets of farmers, who are being absolutely ruined by what is excused as free-market economics.

212. The Chairman: Thank you very much for your presentation. You will be lucky to get out with your head still on your body. I am sorry that I do not have the sword of a serjeant-at-arms. You mentioned the profit-margin percentage. Could you give us those figures again?

213. Mr McGettigan: Our customers, who are family retailers, average between 2% and 3%. Some are actually losing money and some are not actually making a positive profit margin. They are a bit like the farmers.

214. Mr Molloy: Thank you for the frankness of your presentation. It was certainly enlightening and, coming from mainland Ireland, the PR was a bit better than some of the others. I think that in this situation it is important that people buy locally. What effect has the big supermarkets coming into the North had on your ability to buy locally? Has it curtailed you in any way? What effect have those retailers had on your business, and on the family businesses you are talking about?

215. Mr McGettigan: It has affected some of our suppliers. They have either had to have large-scale runs, at the right cost, on contracts that they have elsewhere, or they are just going out of business because they are losing orders.

216. There are the cottage-industry types that were mentioned earlier, and, indeed, we have those as well. However, the lion's share of what we are talking about concerns bread, butter, milk and so forth. On the other hand, there is one positive effect. People are very receptive to us. They believe what we say, mainly because we do not own the shops. Our voice is actually in the people who own the shops in Banbridge, or Limavady, or wherever.

217. Mr Molloy: To follow up on the issue of local produce, some of the other companies have said that they buy produce from here. I know for a fact that a lot of the produce they say is produced here is actually imported. It is packed here, but it is not actually produced here. How do you guarantee that produce is actually produced here? Is there a means of making it easier for the individual farmer to supply the local shop through your process?

218. Mr McGettigan: First, there is our guarantee. Our trading managers, who negotiate with suppliers, ask them to prove that products are made in Northern Ireland. However, in referring back to the example I gave earlier concerning Tayto, it could be said that while half the crisps we buy are sourced in the North, we do not know where the potatoes come from.

219. One thing which the supermarket industry has brought about over the years is economies of scale. Generally, in Europe, the price of food, as a percentage of disposable income, has not risen as fast as inflation. That is because of warehousing, trucks and such things. It is difficult for producers to go directly to one of our customers and supply him at a price that would allow that customer to compete with the local multiple chain supermarkets, because it would be very costly.

220. However, that does not apply to all products, and interestingly, potatoes are the one exception, especially when kept loose in 10kg bags. It makes no sense to be trying to move these around on trucks, because they are so heavy and are so low in value. We encourage our locally owned shops to support their local producers, but they have to try to stay in business too.

221. Mr Savage: Thank you very much for your presentation. What steps can Northern Ireland primary producers take to make themselves more competitive and secure business from your company?

222. MrMcGettigan: They are competitive. We find that one of the difficulties is that products may be sourced locally but sometimes products such as Dutch tomatoes might be being sold cheaper. We find that if we support Northern Ireland producers, then the consumer repays that support and recognises that it is not just a gimmick.

223. Farmers have to recognise that there must be an overarching view of potato production. It cannot go from a shortage one year to overproduction the next. That has been the problem for farmers for hundreds of years, and it has always been the middleman who has made the extra money in both scenarios.

224. The farming community somehow needs to ensure that it is producing the required quantities for the demand that exists. However, as a base it is quite small in the concept of Europe or of the United Kingdom, and it is difficult to decide how many potatoes, how much beef or how much lamb will be required for the year. Our absolute need is for the farmer to survive because this is an agri-based economy, and our shops are owned by families who live in the towns and who sit cheek by jowl with the farmer.

Presentation by Tesco

225. Mr Kells: I should like to make a short presentation. We have also submitted two memoranda in advance, one dealing with the specific issue of potatoes.

226. Tesco is pleased to discuss with the Committee, alongside our fellow retailers, the current crisis in Northern Ireland's agricultural industry. While Tesco is one of the largest retailers, not only in this market but in the wider European context, we are also a locally based company with a local management team and more than 7,000 local employees. As such, we cannot fail to recognise the impact that the plight of the farmers is having on this community.

227. Our international experience makes us all the more aware of the new and more global nature of the market in which our farmers are now competing. The bottom line is that many Northern Ireland agricultural sectors are producing more than is consumed. This means that we may have to examine how we can sell our surplus produce beyond the local market, just as producers in other European countries and beyond are doing.

228. Week in, week out we are approached by foreign producers asking us to buy their produce and almost always at cheaper prices. The reason why Tesco so rarely take up these offers is because to do so would be shortsighted. It would not provide a long-term future for the local economy, in which we have to function, and it would be unfair to our customers who expect us to provide the highest quality product we can.

229. Through many years of experience in dealing with producers in Northern Ireland we know that the product that can be sourced here is amongst the best quality available anywhere - not only in Europe but throughout the world. That is why, with the exception of a small number of specialty lines, all our fresh pork, fresh beef, lamb, poultry, eggs, fish, milk, bread and all locally available produce, including potatoes, come from local farmers, suppliers and producers.

230. This is also why we have spent more than £150 million in the last two years of refurbishing and building new stores in Northern Ireland, and £14 million of that was spent on local distribution centres to facilitate local supply. It is also why we have established a regional office in Belfast with a local team - more than 40 people to support our 36 stores and customers and to develop relationships with local suppliers. This adds up to a substantial long-term commitment to this community.

231. Clearly we are aware of the concerns of the Committee in relation to differentials between farmgate price and retail prices. We know and would seek acknowledgement of the very genuine and substantial costs that accumulate throughout the chain to determine the final retail price. This is an issue about costs, not profits.

232. However, notwithstanding this, we have taken on board the desire outlined in your initial letter to us not to dwell on the current situation but to strive to find solutions. As such, I see today as the beginning of what must be a far-reaching process to address what we in the retail industry, more specifically in Tesco, can do to assist in finding ways forward for the present situation, and what realistic and practical contribution we can make to that process.

233. In our memorandum we have outlined a number of topics for discussion on the issue of potatoes. These topics range from the upgrading of storage facilities to the more long-term concept of developing a marketing strategy to promote regional branding for local potatoes in general.

234. With regard to other areas of the industry, we are keen to develop a multi-disciplinary taskforce with representatives from across agriculture including processors, DARD, retailers and, crucially, customers. This group could work on building strategies for each sector of the industry, and address some fundamental issues such as the marketing of Northern Ireland produce in the broadest sense. We still need to go back to basics and ask "What do our customers want to buy?" and "Are we actually producing it?"

235. As retailers we can help to answer these questions. We have access to a substantial body of consumer information, and we have learnt, through experience, that our most successful and mutually beneficial partnerships with suppliers arise when we share information and work to a common goal, rather than seeing our relationship as one of conflict.

236. In the longer term, is there real potential for the development of a local brand for our agricultural produce? Our farmers in various sectors have to operate to some of the highest specifications in the world; we know we have superior traceability; we know our products have a fresh and wholesome image; but when it comes to customers, here or abroad, they do not consider local sourcing as essential when making a choice about what to buy. Quality, value, range and convenience are the reasons for purchase. Local, by itself, is not enough. Producers and retailers have high standards to meet, but let us look at that as positive and start to sell the benefits of those standards to the consumers. We need to look at developing strategies which persuade customers, whether local or international, that Northern Ireland products are of superior quality, that we can be as innovative as anywhere else in the world and that our goods represent excellent value for money. We must harness what we do exceptionally well and ground that in a commitment to, and an understanding of, today's customers.

237. I will give you one example of how Tesco is trying to do this. We have recently been working with a small local company called Potato Pleasures and with the excellent facility at Loughry College to develop a brand new Tesco product - champ. "What is new about champ?", I hear you say, especially those who were brought up on it. This champ is specifically designed for today's market. It is a convenience product ready-made from local potatoes. All the customer has to do is heat it and eat it, conventially or in the microwave. There is no peeling, boiling, chopping or mashing and, best of all, it is selling extremely well. We have launched it in the South, and it has the potential to go much further.

238. That is only one example, but perhaps this is the sort of model we need to look at more - added value products, in convenience form, drawing on areas of expertise and our food heritage and meeting the requirements of today's customers. We have information on what is being produced and what is likely to be required in the new retail markets, including niche markets, organics and now e-commerce. Locally, how can we lead the way in producing goods which anticipate these fundamental changes? I appreciate that these are ideas for discussion, but Tesco is happy to make available whatever technical expertise, market knowledge and international retail experience it has to work with you and the wider industry.

239. We already buy more than £220 million of food and drink from Northern Ireland, and we have undertaken to increase this to £290 million by 2002. This can be achieved by building the competitive and sustainable agriculture industry which our local farmers deserve.

240. The Chairman: We will certainly take you up on your offer. We want as much information as possible because we do not want to start diagnosing again - we want remedies. We appreciate any suggestions or information you can give us. What are the net profit margins in the retail industry?

241. Mr Kells: My competitor from Safeway suggested some figures which we concur with. Perhaps our finance manager will develop that.

242. Mr Timoney: The last reported figure for Tesco's net profit margin was 5·8%. When you take into account the VAT element which goes to Customs and Excise, that is just over 5p in the pound.

243. The Chairman: How do prices paid to producers and margins from sales in Northern Ireland compare with those in the wider market?

244. Mr Kells: Prices paid to potato producers in Northern Ireland are higher than throughout Great Britain. I must say that, for the most part, we do not deal directly with producers. We deal with suppliers in the form of manufacturers or processors, specifically, in the case of potatoes, with Wilson's Country. They negotiate with an independent producer base in Northern Ireland, and we conduct our business with Wilson's. Having said that, we maintain a relationship with our growers and help them through agronomic and technical support. It is a three-way partnership.

245. The Chairman: Regardless of middlemen, do you feel a responsibility primarily to Northern Ireland producers?

246. Mr Kells: Absolutely. We have a moral responsibility. As I said in my opening statement, we have 7,000 local employees. Every one of those employees has a local family; every local family has a local extended family. There are not many in Northern Ireland who are not connected, without going back many generations directly into the rural community. It is not just a moral issue; it is an issue because we are local people ourselves. I say to those who are cynical about that that it is in our business interest as Tesco to have a strong rural community. We have already committed huge investment to stores and departments. We need a thriving community and recognise that the agricultural community has to be prosperous for us to be prosperous. It is an interlinked chain, and we very much appreciate that.

247. The Chairman: We find ourselves in full agreement. We believe that if the farmers go down, everyone goes down. There is the spread out of their families and the ancillary operations in the agricultural economy. That is what we are trying to impress on the Prime Minister, who takes a very strange view of the agriculture industry. To suggest a farmer should start a golf course is the height of nonsense. Other ventures to help farmers like bed and breakfast is all right but farmers did not come into existence to turn their farms into bed-and-breakfast places; they came to farm and want to farm.

General Questions

248. We are grateful to you all for coming here today. We will now ask you take some questions from the Committee.

249. There are also two representatives from the potato industry, Mr Wilson from Wilson's Country and Mr McKillop from Glens of Antrim Potatoes. If there are any questions they will be happy to answer them.

250. Mr Douglas: The emphasis today has been on potatoes. Many years ago in potato farming four million people either lost their lives or had to flee to America because of the potato famine. It is unlikely that that would happen again. However, potato producers have lost most of their seed trade and since then have been producing potatoes for the supermarkets.

251. The Chairman: Will you please tell us to whom you would like to put your question to?

252. Mr Douglas: I would like them all to answer it.

253.The Chairman: We would not have time for that. Who do you want to answer your question?

254. Mr Douglas: I would like Mr Wilson to answer. The retailers have stated that certain individuals are sourcing the potatoes for them, and the retailers have a duty to see that these packers source their potatoes in Northern Ireland. That is a must. Would Mr Wilson like to respond?

255. Mr Wilson: The retailers whom I represent, clearly specify that we source the product as close to home as possible and to the specification they require. It does not pay to bring potatoes from Great Britain or elsewhere. Because of the transport costs, the money is not in it.

256. Mr Douglas: There is the feeling that, although you say that you are sourcing more suppliers in Northern Ireland, a big number of potatoes are coming into the country. In fact, that is known. This is a problem for the farmers, knowing that they have potatoes in the ground. I encourage the farmers to insist that all potatoes be sourced in Northern Ireland.

257. Mr Wilson: We export a considerable amount of Northern Ireland potatoes, and if we make a fuss about importing potatoes, we will close the borders to exporting them - we must bear this in mind.

258. Mr Kells: I would like to clarify that it is the policy of Tesco to source local potatoes where we can. From time to time - and we have been honest and have said this - to meet customers' range and quality expectations, we are forced to import some varieties of potatoes which are not available locally. The export community is to a Tesco sister company in the South - Tesco Ireland.

259. The Chairman: Would you like to comment on that, Mr McKillop.

260. Mr McKillop: Ninety to 95% of our potatoes are sourced locally. It certainly would not pay us to import potatoes.

261. Mr Kane: I would like to ask Mr Hawkins if retailers are committed to quality and welfare standards, taking into consideration the strength of sterling which sees imports rise, or is price the key factor?

262. Mr Hawkins: I presume by your reference to welfare standards that you are specifically talking about livestock. One hundred per cent of our fresh pork is sourced in Britain. One hundred per cent of our lamb is also sourced in Britain, except at this time of the year when, in common with other retailers, we bring in a small quantity of New Zealand chilled lamb, because the British lamb crop is coming to the end of its season. Similarly, with beef we are 100% British. In each case we have full traceability and know exactly who is supplying the product to us. Through our processors we can go back to the farms in order to ensure that welfare, quality, hygiene and safety standards are being observed. This adds a huge amount of cost to the supply chain, but our brand name is on that product, and, post-BSE and other problems meat has had in recent years, we have to be certain that what we are supplying to the consumer is up to standard. So, in answer to your question, we are not importing any meat products from any country whose standards are below those of the UK.

263. Mr Paisley Jnr: Earlier I asked Sainsbury's how many product lines it stocks and how many are from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I hope that the other retailers will be able to give us equivalent statistics in writing after this meeting. They will be useful to help us come to some fundamental decisions about your industry.

264. This question is specifically for the representatives from Tesco and Marks & Spencer, it is to do with transparency in food pricing. I understand that top grade beef cattle are valued at 174p a kilogram, yet in your supermarkets prime sirloin steak sells at around £11·80 per kilogram. Pig producers receive 68p a kilogram for their pigs, yet pork fillets retail at £8·00 a kilogram. The primary producers say that they are being robbed, and the consumers say that they are being stitched up. Why is there such a difference in price?

265. Dr Brown: While at first glance the farmgate price and the retail price appear to be out of kilter, what you are missing are the increased costs in the middle, the increased costs associated with BSE and the increased costs associated with the increased legislative burden on pack houses and abattoirs. As an illustration, bones that were worth around £65 a ton before the regulations changed in 1996 now have to be disposed of at a cost of £85 a ton. That is the first addition to the chain, if you like , which has to be included -

266. Mr Paisley Jnr: Before you go on, the BSE argument might hold some water with beef prices, but there is a glut of pork on the market. Pork prices are rocketing for the consumers, and they are rocketing for you, but they are not rocketing for the primary producers.

267. Dr Brown: There is still inflation within pork pricing and there is still a cost for the pig industry because of the aspects of the BSE legislation that are associated with the rendering of products. That has to be acknowledged.

268. Mr Hawkins: I would like to add something there, although Mr Paisley Jnr did not address the question to me. Many people do not understand what a small proportion of the total carcass is actually marketed through supermarkets to the consumers as cuts of meat for which there is consumer demand. The percentages of lamb, pork and beef are all very similar. Less than one-third, and in some cases only a quarter, of the dead weight of a carcass actually comes to the retailer as packaged or loose meat product for which there is a demand. In the case of pork, for example, most of our business is loin pork because there is no consumer demand for cheaper cuts such as belly or shoulder.

269. That is another aspect of what I was talking about earlier, which is the changing nature of consumer demand. People are not only eating less meat in total; what they are eating is better quality than it used to be. For the processor in the middle, the problem is what to do with that large proportion of the carcass for which there is no retail demand. Until about two years ago, most processors were able to export a great deal of that surplus to Russia or the Far East. For example, a sheep farmer could get £8 or £9 for a skin. Those foreign markets have disappeared, either because they are in difficulty themselves or because of the strength of sterling.

270. The result is that the processor now has a huge cost that he has to dispose of. That has meant that his prices to us have hardly changed; if anything they have gone up in some cases. I have to say that our prices to the consumer have not rocketed; our prices are down 20% on last year. Our prices have fallen, and the farmer is getting a much lower farmgate price than he ever did, but it is not the processor who is making money. He is stuck with huge costs that he must get rid of somehow, or he will go out of business, so he has to charge us a price that will give him a return on his operations, and that means a charge on the quality cuts that we can actually sell. I am sorry for that long-winded explanation.

271. The Chairman: The Committee would take exception to that. We have had the middlemen here, the meat processors, and we asked whether any of them was going bankrupt or contemplating suicide, and they laughed and said "No". But farmers are going bankrupt; farmers are contemplating suicide and have committed suicide.

272. It is Committee's general opinion that there is far too much money in the middle, and that it should be passed on to the consumer. The people buying the produce should not have to pay the prices they are paying, given the price that it was bought for. I accept that there have been changes in what is rejected at the abattoir - offal and skins - but I do not think that that accounts for the disparity between the price at the farmgate and what the consumer has to pay.

273. Mr Paisley Jnr: I would like to raise an issue before the point from Tesco is answered. The answer given indicates that there is not greed in the industry, but there is immense inefficiency. I do not accept that the primary producers are immensely inefficient or that your companies are inefficient. However, the primary producer and the consumer see the product as it leaves the farm and see the product on the shelf. They are being told by you that to kill it and package it makes the price rocket, in terms of pig, from 68p per kilogram to £8·00 per kilogram. Someone somewhere is making money and making a killing, or else everyone is grossly inefficient.

274. Dr Brown: It is a fact that 50% of cattle do not meet retailer specifications in relation to carcass trade and carcass fat. The position is the same in Great Britain. For every animal my supplier wants to provide, he has to buy another one which he really does not want. That is a reflection of the distortions that have come about by subsidy payments. The industry has a cost to bear at that level.

275. The Chairman: The Committee has to look at this matter. It is raised by all the witnesses who come before it, and we have to find a way of solving it. We have received very strong representations from the producers, the farmers and the consumers. There is a missing element. We are not blaming you folk, but we have raised the matter in very strong terms with the middlemen, and they will be giving us evidence as well.

276. To digress for a moment, it seems that the Government money has gone to the middlemen. The amounts of money given to meat processors have been vast, but they have never reached the farmer's pocket. The farmer never gets any benefit. However, that has been a useful exchange.

277. Mr Bradley: That leads me in, but I do not know to whom I should address my question.

278. The Chairman: Pick anybody.

279. Mr Bradley: I will leave it to you to direct it, Mr Chairman.

280. We know the damage that cartels have caused to the agriculture industry. Can each representative give an assurance that not even a hint of a cartel exists within the industry?

281. The Chairman: That applies to them all, so they all need to answer it.

282.Mr Kells: Retailing is an intensely competitive and increasingly global business. There is no room for cartels of any description. It is intensely competitive. Developments throughout Great Britain over the last six months show the extent to which that competition has grown, and it is no less intense in Northern Ireland.

283. I return to some of Mr Paisley Jnr's points. On local lines, we source around 1500 local product lines from Northern Ireland, with a further 350 or so from the South. We have a policy to make that choice visible to the customer in-store. On the farmgate issue, as I said in my submission - and as others have commented - we feel very strongly that this is an issue about costs. We also recognise that much more information is needed. Tesco has co-operated with every investigation and body.

284. There was a Parliamentary Select Committee investigation into this issue in Great Britain. We co-operated with it and we submitted the figures we were asked to submit. We have been consistent in our view on it - this is not about profits; it is about genuine costs.

285. There is one point about retail pricing that may have been overlooked. I am not trying to say that there is no differential, because there is; and for the reasons already stated, which are the costs. The retail prices that are often quoted are the highest retail prices or the retail prices which exclude our promotional activity. One thing which Tesco does - and I think other retailers do the same - is to drive-up the volume of sales through promotions. For example, last year we not only had the cheapest price on pork for seven years, we advertised that we had the lowest price on pork for seven years.

286. The prices to the consumer have come down. Year-on-year it has got cheaper to shop at Tesco, and this year, it will be cheaper again. Retail prices are coming down and the part played by promotions in some areas has a very significant impact on the overall retail price.

287. Mr McGettigan: I have a slightly different view, Mr Bradley. The UK grocery market is not as fragmented as it is in the rest of Europe with four main players controlling 80% of the market, and that has led to Monopolies and Merger Commission investigations and so forth. There is very close monitoring. I am not saying that people get together and decide what they will do with prices. However, they electronically monitor the prices of thousands of products each week so that the buyers will know within a fraction of a fraction of a percent how their prices compare to that of their competition. If they see prices go up elsewhere then they put their prices up, because they all need to make a profit. Ultimately, with the exception of the Co-op movement, they are accountable to the Stock Exchange.

288. Suppliers are disadvantaged by the lack of fragmentation, and the fact that so much purchasing power resides in so few people - and the smaller the supplier, the more he will be disadvantaged; the less powerful your brand, the greater the trouble you will be in. In our supermarkets - those that are owned by individual businesses - the produce areas have the highest profitability. This is because of the low profit margins that are available from Kellogg, Nestle, Unilever and the other giant multi-national companies. A handful of them provide 30% of everything that is bought in the supermarket, and they make sure that the retailers are not able to get a high profit margin.

289. So, if it costs the retailer a certain amount to run a shop, and he is only making 5% from Nestle or Unilever poducts, he will go to the less well-organised, less brand orientated, or more commodity orientated suppliers. Such considerations are fundamental to the neat running of a supermarket. Ultimately, it costs a certain amount to run a business. The costs are the same, and somebody has to pay for them. Whether the price of the products goes up or down, you will have to make the money to pay wages, and if you cannot make the money from one place you have got to make it from another.

290. The Chairman: I think that we must move to Mr Dallat for he will explode if he does not get the opportunity to ask a question on this matter.

291. Mr Dallat: Mr Chairman, it would be wrong if Mr McGettigan should dominate this rather interesting meeting.

292. In your presentation, Mr McGettigan, I got the impression that you have been very successful in the South in preserving shops and smaller communities. What can the Assembly do, or focus on, to ensure that the North does not end up like large parts of England, America and Canada, where whole communities have been wiped out sometimes by the type of promotions that Mr Kells was talking about - through sustained attacks on elements of the retail sector, whether it be the butcher, the baker or the chemist or whatever? What advice can you give us to ensure that we keep the Cookstowns, the Dungannons, the Kilreas, and the Garvaghs as separate entities and not subsumed into other large towns?

293. Mr McGettigan: You referred to the Republic of Ireland and some of the things that helped there. I do not know whether those things are transferable. After a supermarket chain called H Williams went bankrupt and a lot of people and suppliers - predominantly the farmers or their co-operatives - were stung, the Irish Government banned the practice of selling below cost price. That was done on the basis that no one could sell below cost price in any sustainable way because it favoured the big and disadvantaged the small. That was the first thing they did.

294. The second thing they did, when they saw a proliferation of planning applications for large supermarkets of 50,000 or 60,000 square feet was to put a cap on them. They said "Hold on a minute. If you build one of these and it costs £30 million or £50 million, someone is going to have to pay, because your share price sure ain't going down."

295. The third thing they did was to get a voluntary commitment from everybody in the trade to support a defined percentage of local sourcing. At that time "local" meant "within the Republic of Ireland." They did that by reference to historical information which showed what percentage of food eaten in the Republic of Ireland was also sourced there. They then asked people to agree to maintain that level and allow monitoring to take place in order to ensure that it would not fall.

296. All of those things, coupled with the independent sector's own professionalism, allowed for a retail fabric, and therefore an agri-food fabric, that is substantially different than might pertain, for example, in post-Wal-Mart United States.

297. Mr Dallat: So, are you saying that the Assembly could influence the future of the retail industry?

298. Mr McGettigan: It has a lot better chance than - I will not say from where. I think it could.

299. Mr Paisley Jnr: Pick a window, you are leaving.

300. Mr Gibson: I made a point in my statement that three quarters of our suppliers here in Northern Ireland have a substantial part of their business outside Northern Ireland. That has really driven their success with Marks & Spencer plc and that is what is driving their current growth. I would suggest that suppliers in Northern Ireland need to get as close to their partners in the retail trade as they can, and that they must not just focus on the local market here. There is a very substantial market outside Northern Ireland and there are some very high quality products here. It would be a mistake not to focus on exporting outside Northern Ireland.

301. The Chairman: I certainly accept that.

302. Mr Ford: I am glad that Mr Gibson came in there because he has slightly set himself up for what I want to ask him and some of his colleagues. The Co-op gave us some fairly detailed figures on the value of their purchases for sales in Northern Ireland and in GB. The four supermarket chains based in GB have all either come to Northern Ireland in recent years or expanded significantly here in recent years.

303. I would like to ask them the value of Northern Ireland purchases over the last five years, which they sell in Northern Ireland, and the value of Northern Ireland purchases which are sold in Great Britain. I assume I will not get an answer this morning but we could accept a written response. That entirely makes the point as to how much you, the stores, are doing to help sell the high quality product in Great Britain, which you have just described.

304. The Chairman: It would be good to have that in written evidence because we are probably going to have to look at that. There have been a lot of suggestions today that we want to explore in regard to that. That is certainly a valid point.

305. Mr Hawkins: If we were to start putting large quantities of Northern Ireland fresh eggs, milk, meat and so forth on our shelves we would immediately have the English farmers around our necks because, as I said earlier, they are in exactly the same position as many Northern Ireland farmers. They have too much supply in relation to the demand for it and they watch us very carefully, I can assure you.

306. Mr Dallat: You are selling Ayrshire milk in your stores here in Northern Ireland.

307. Mr Kells: We stock Ayrshire milk in Northern Ireland. It is produced by Erganagh Dairy.

308. The Chairman: You must be drinking it.

309. Mr Kells: Sorry, Mr Chairman, but this is quite an important point.

310. That product is produced under licence by a local company, Erganagh Dairy, of Castlederg. It does not come from Scotland. Erganagh Dairy is one of our most successful small dairy producers. It not only produces our Ayrshire milk, it produces a fantastic range of goat's milk, which means that we no longer have to import goat's milk from St Helen's in Lancashire. This merely highlights the need to build more understanding.

311. There is a tremendous amount of work being done, and not just in conjunction with large producers. Our meat supplier in Northern Ireland is one of the two main suppliers to Tesco's supermarkets throughout the whole of Great Britain. It is a major element in Tesco's business. Our commitment to large and small suppliers in Northern Ireland is genuine. One of the things which we should be stressing today is the need to work together to build on that.

312. In response to Mr McGettigan's point, I can reassure everyone in the room that the reason we monitor several thousand prices every week is to make sure that Tesco's prices are cheaper, not dearer.

313. The Chairman: I think that even Mr Dallat would be quite happy as long as the Ayrshire cow ate Northern Irish grass and the milk was produced here. These facts are not generally known, and they need to be known. That is one of the aims of this Committee: to try to get the truth to the people.

314. Mr McHugh: I imagine that the retailers are quite efficient in how they do their business. In the past, I would have thought that there was massive overcapacity in milk processing. Would you like to comment on that? Even in the Republic of Ireland there are areas of overcapacity on the processing side, yet farmers are still making very little profit. Some of the farmers' representatives claim that only £1 out of every £30 goes to farmers - this in a £70 billion industry. There is enough money in the industry to ensure a decent income for everyone, yet a vital part of the industry is disappearing, or looks as if it is about to disappear, because of market failure. How do you intend to address the question of efficiency? I listened to a programme last night on the car manufacturing industry, and was struck by the fact that the manufacturers demand a large slice of the overall price. The opposite applies to farmers. Perhaps you might like to comment on that.

315. Mr Brecknell: We at Sainsbury's are undertaking a major review of our suppliers. When I say suppliers, I do not mean the farmers; I mean the processors and packagers. Some of our competitors have already done this and have found it very difficult. One has to analyse who is performing well and who is not performing well and make a judgement accordingly. We agree with you: overcapacity is not just a problem at farming level, it is at the processing and packaging level as well. In the next year or two we are going to see a lot of companies either combine or go out of business.

316. Mr Wilson: As a processor I can tell the Committee that our scale in Northern Ireland is about one third the size of the average processor in Great Britain engaged in a similar type of business. We need to export so that we can develop our businesses to be able to compete with Great Britain and with other countries of the European Union. The question of the scale of business is an important one for the Northern Ireland processor.

317. Mr Armstrong: Mr Wilson, I believe that only 7% of potatoes produced in Northern Ireland are sourced by your company. This might be because of the high standards for potato skins which a lot of supermarkets demand. That this year's potatoes are not of such a high quality may be due to the poor season which we had. However, farmers do not control the weather or the quality of potatoes produced. Beauty is only skin deep, and the potato is every bit as good under that skin.

318. Mr Wilson: I agree, however we cannot control the weather and we cannot control our consumers who consider that the appearance of the potato is very important. By way of example, I have often heard it said that if people were asked to choose between an orange with a blemish and one without, they would choose the nice clean orange, even though nobody eats the skin of the orange.

319. Mr Armstrong: Is it true that you sell only 7% of potatoes from Northern Ireland?

320. Mr Wilson: No, that is absolutely wrong.

321. The Chairman: What percentage of potatoes do you import?

322. Mr Wilson: I would be happy to answer that question by way of a submission, but not in this forum. However, the figure is vastly above 7% - or even 50% or 60%.

323. Mr Armstrong: Someone told me that we are eating less food than before. If this is true, why do we need so many supermarkets? Is it because so many people enjoy shopping and window-shopping. Perhaps you should charge people who do not buy goods for coming into your supermarkets because most people seem to enjoy shopping -

324. Mr Hawkins: I think that you are quoting me, or rather misquoting me. I did not actually say that people are eating less food but rather that their habits are changing - they are eating different kinds of foods. In the produce market there are two particular growth areas, bananas and grapes, but unfortunately, as far as I am aware, neither bananas nor grapes are grown in Northern Ireland. Stone fruit is either static or declining. This demonstrates that, across the board, people want convenience food which is quicker and easier to prepare. This is a change in habits; it is not that they are eating less, but that they are just eating differently.

325. The Chairman: There is also a great change in the eating habits of young people; many are vegetarians. I have often told farmers that they need to advertise to keep people eating meat because people are turning away from it.

326. Mr Armstrong: Perhaps they should eat more mashed potatoes and worry less about the skin.

327. Mr Kells: Mr Chairman, I wish to build upon what Mr Wilson said. In all the analysis we are doing, it is desperately important that we do not lose sight of the customer.

328. Mr Wilson mentioned that two-thirds of the potatoes sold by Tesco in Northern Ireland are washed, and yet three to five years ago hardly a washed potato was sold in Northern Ireland. So what is the reason for this change? It is because people want convenience; they want to open the bag and put the potatoes in the pot - they do not even want to have to wash them. Neither do they necessarily want varieties that taste superb but are difficult to cook; they want varieties that they can put on to cook, leave and have potatoes which are acceptable to eat. Your point, Mr Chairman, about the younger generation is particularly relevant.

329. I urge the Committee not to lose sight of the consumer. If we do, our good work will be useless. We must deliver what the consumers want; it is they who keep all of us in business.

330. Mr Wilson: The real battle is with the competition from rice and pasta. If we do not offer the consumers what they want in a potato, they will buy rice and pasta.

331. Mr Chairman, you will be delighted to hear that we used a good County Antrim woman, Jenny Bristow, to advertise our potatoes on television recently to try to promote the Northern Ireland potato-growing industry. This was a serious investment to try to encourage people to keep eating potatoes, and we have to give them the potatoes that they want.

332. Mr Gibson: There is a cyclical pricing structure in the potato market which means that when there are more than seven million tons of potatoes in the UK, the price comes down to its current level; yet last year the average potato price was three times what it is now. Every time the price goes up, the consumption of fresh potatoes is forced down, and, as Mr Wilson said, more and more customers will not come back to potatoes. A more static price and ready-prepared products are what people want, and we have to respond to that.

333. Mr McGettigan: The second part of Mr Armstrong's question concerned the need for so many shops. Many people, including Sir John Harvey-Jones who has written about the matter and spoken on it here in Belfast, believe that there is over-capitalisation in the market and that there are too many big shops. Larger and larger stores are being built, which in themselves drive the need for higher prices and more profit, instead of allowing for smaller shops which are more convenient and which people do not have to travel so far to reach. In your jest you have touched on a point which many economists believe is valid.

334.Mr Armstrong: Everyone seems to want to produce food organically. Potatoes, in their natural state, have soil on them, as does every other product. If people want to have them the old way, in their natural state, let us have them like that.

335. The Chairman: I agree that everybody wants convenience. If one is offered washed potatoes and potatoes with soil on them, the outcome is clear. People need not wash them again. They would just put them straight into the pot. One must also remember that far more families split up today than used to be the case in my early days. I have been in the ministry for 52 years and have a wide pastoral experience. The mother was always at home. Today, most mothers work because they need to. Recently, I was talking to a farmer with a working wife and he said he had come to the conclusion that he was there to keep the animals. The animals could not keep him, so his wife had to work. This is why people want something they can prepare quickly, and if they can get it done quickly, they will go for it. My Deputy has a final question.

336. Mr Savage: This has been a very useful meeting. The people here today hold the future of agriculture in their hands. I am a farmer. Adding an extra 5p to 10p a kilo on everything could solve all of the problems in Northern Ireland's agriculture industry. I do not want you to answer that; I want you to leave with that thought.

337. I would say to the gentleman from Tesco that I produce cattle and I go into his supermarket. There is a vast difference between the price I get for those animals and the price he receives. It is the same for all commodities, but if we are to have an agriculture industry in two or three years' time, we need your support. There must be a joint effort between farmers and retailers.

338. I know you are all experts or perhaps, to use a word that has been used fairly often recently, spin-doctors. Both you and the farmers have an extremely important job to do, and the agriculture industry cannot go on like this. Northern Ireland is a small place and we need support and help.

339. Mr Bracknell: On the mainland, there has been a great deal of speculative growing over the last two or three years because the potato market has been so high. Farmers have come out of livestock and horticultural products and gone into potatoes, which is partly the reason why there is a glut this year. Sainsbury's has met the Ulster Farmers' Union every year since our arrival, and we have forecast that similar things could happen in the Province if farmers and packers do not start to grow potatoes to meet the market. It all comes from meeting the market, for a grower must have one. I should like to add that the competition commission, in its inconclusive verdict last week, said there was at best only limited evidence that excessive profits were being made by supermarkets.

340. The Chairman: In closing, I should like to express our thanks to you for coming. We believe that this exchange has been extremely helpful to us. We need that three-way partnership to which Mr Savage referred, and we must develop it more.

341. We are in the position of being able to monitor the Government. We have powers to send for persons and papers, and we are able to monitor the Minister before and after she takes decisions. This Committee could have a great deal of influence, just as the powerful Statutory Committees at Westminster have. We are not against the people that sell the produce; we want this Committee to operate for the good of the entire industry. We need a healthy industry; there would be no point in the farmers producing a good range of produce if you cannot sell it for him.

342. We need experts at every stage. We would like you to think again about ways and means that you think this Committee could help to get the industry out of the mess it is in. Some of them may be long-term; some may be short-term, but the more ideas that we have - the more prescriptions we can get - the better we can do our job. We are very grateful to you. This has been a very helpful meeting, and we have all benefited. The next time you come I hope you will not think that we are a lot of ogres waiting to get down your necks. We are just ordinary people who have an interest in our constituents and are trying to help. This has been a most helpful meeting, and we are grateful to you for the attitude you adopted and for the forthrightness with which you gave your evidence. I look forward to receiving your future communications.

343. Thank you very much.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 9 June 2000

Members Present:

Rev Dr Ian Paisley (Chairman)
Mr Savage (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Armstrong
Mr Bradley
Mr Dallat
Mr Douglas
Mr Ford
Mr Kane
Mr McHugh
Mr Molloy

Witnesses:

Mr D Rutledge )
Dr M Tempest ) Livestock and Meat Commission
Mr P O'Neill )

Livestock and Meat Commission

344. The Chairman: We have the Livestock and Meat Commission with us, and we welcome Mr Rutledge, Mr ONeill and Mr Tempest. Welcome to our deliberation. Thank you for coming. We have a submission from you which I am sure you will want to go through with us, and then the rest. The position is we have a maximum of 10 minutes for you to make your submission, and then we will have half an hour of questions from the various Members of the Committee. We are attempting to run this strict on time so we will be calling on you to wind up at 10.11.

345. Mr. Rutledge: You had indicated a little bit more flexibility with the opening presentation, Mr Chairman. If you are wanting to do that very strictly, I will have to curtail my speaking notes a little bit.

346. The Chairman: That being so, and you thought you were going to be 15 minutes we will do that, but then the questions will have to be answered more concisely.

347. Mr Rutledge: Thank you.

348. The Chairman: 15 minutes then. We will finish this at about 10.16.

349. Mr Rutledge: Thank you, Gentlemen. We are pleased with the opportunity of addressing you this morning, Mr. Chairman. We will seek to deal formally with the topics as laid out in your letter of 13th May. In order to facilitate this, since we do not have overhead projection facilities, we have prepared a handout which, as you referred to, has been circulated around your Committee. By way of introduction, the Livestock and Meat Commission is a support organisation for the Northern Ireland beef and sheepmeat industries. We do not have time this morning to develop in much detail the range of activities we perform. Of course, I would like to extend an invitation to the Committee to visit with us when we can deal in detail with the range of things that we do for the industry. Suffice it for this morning that we seek to support the industry at producer, processor, wholesaler, retailer, caterer and consumer levels. We try to maintain a reasonable understanding of the dynamics of the industry and of the major issues affecting us at each of these levels. An important part of the background which addresses one of the specific points raised in your letter is understanding how values have developed over recent years. You will see in slide four of the documentation before you the dramatic fall in the farm gate value from 1995 to the low point achieved in the autumn of 1998. You will see also that the value to the producer has recovered somewhat coming into the current year. What is generally not recognised in the farming community, however, is that the value obtained by processors and the value obtained by retailers from their customers has also followed the same pattern.

350. Of course, these figures do not reveal the significantly increased costs through processing and retailing chains as a consequence of the mainly BSE-related controls imposed by government over the last two years. It has been estimated that these controls have cost our industry in the order of £50 per head for every beef animal slaughtered. Moving from values to margins. The next three slides show how margins have developed within recent years with producers, processors and retailers. These slides would tend to highlight that the major beneficiary has been, in fact, the consumer.

351. A further issue to be contemplated in any discussion of the beef and sheepmeat industry is the Agenda 2000 agreement. This is the main determinant of the operating environment of our industry over the next few years. In summary, the conclusion on the Agenda 2000 agreement was that we would over the next three years have a 20 % cumulative reduction in the market price for beef, and that this would be compensated for by an increase in subsidies payable to producers.

352. These changes are designed to move the European price closer to the world market price so as to facilitate export from Europe without subsidisation. By way of information, the world market price for commodity beef is best represented by the price obtained by the Australians, who are the world's largest exporters of beef. When we checked this just a few weeks ago, we found that Australian steers of 240 kilogrammes in weight were leaving farms on a dead weight price equivalent to 95p sterling per kilogramme. Of course it is frightening to contemplate such a price would have to be taken by Northern Ireland producers, but there are a couple of mitigating circumstances. Firstly, the value of sterling is acknowledged to be currently at levels that are not sustainable for most industries where there is an interest in exporting. Secondly, there is some evidence that the world market price may be strengthening. You can see from slide 13 that from 1st July 2002 safety net intervention at current exchange rates is set at 97.8p per kilogramme. I am sure the proximity of this to world commodity beef prices is no coincidence.

353. There are, as I have said, increasing subsidies through beef special premium, suckler cow premium, slaughter premium, as well as extensification payments which will offset at producer level most of the reduction in price. Time does not permit me this morning to develop these in detail, other than to say that these subsidies will isolate the producers further from the market place and encourage them perhaps to produce product to collect subsidy rather than to meet a market need.

354. Sheepmeat was not the subject of Agenda 2000 reforms but clearly there is also pressure in this sector. Production costs for competitive meats, poultry and pig meat, are predicted to fall as the reform package envisages substantial reduction in cereal prices. In addition the inclusion of sheep in the extensification calculations will add further pressure to the mixed livestock farm.

355. Turning now to other specific issues raised in your letter, you asked for our views on integration or reorganisation of the agricultural industry. It is clear to us that within our sector significant change must take place. In our submission to you in regard to agricultural debt we sought to highlight that the average industrial wage for a Northern Ireland beef farmer could only be achieved on a holding which was over 100 acres in size.

356. As shown in slide 15, only 16 % of Northern Ireland farmers are large enough to produce this average industrial wage annually from beef farming. We must highlight that these figures do not begin to account in any serious way for a return on the assets employed. The major asset employed in beef and sheep farming is agricultural land, and it must be said that the value of land does not bear any meaningful relationship to its earning capacity. It is difficult to see, therefore, how we can achieve integration or reorganisation of our industry based on the transfer of land from small producers to larger producers. Larger producers could not realistically afford to invest at current land values.

357. While the ownership of land does not have to change in order to restructure, we would comment that conacre values, while more attractive than land acquisition, tend to give all of the margin which can be earned from the land to the owner rather than to the user.

358. Our conclusion, therefore, is that while there will be some tendency towards larger farms, the biggest reorganisation is likely to evolve around the development of part-time farming supported by other sources of income.

359. It is our estimate that over the next few years we will require the creation of the order of 10,000 full or part-time jobs in the rural areas of Northern Ireland. We believe that the majority of those farms classified in slide 17 as very small are already predominantly part-timers. It is our belief that most of the 11,000 approximately of those classified as small farms will require to be run on a part-time basis.

360. In your letter you asked about the quality of our production, and given the background that we have described it is our opinion that we are unlikely to be able to have a sustainable beef or sheepmeat industry at world commodity prices. It is imperative, we believe, that every possible step is taken to differentiate our industry. There are a number of discerning customers who attach importance to animal traceability, animal welfare, animal husbandry and care for the environment and such customers, and will favour supplies from quality farms. We contend therefore that the Northern Ireland Farm Quality Assurance scheme is an absolute imperative for any serious sheepmeat or beef producer in the region.

361. It is equally clear to us that we must focus more on maximising the value of individual animals. The premium customers seek the maximum amount of premium cuts from the animal (these are the steaks and the roasting joints), and the yield of these is maximised by improving the conformation of our livestock. In the circumstances of the genetic development of the dairy industry towards the Holstein breed from which 35% to 40 % of our cattle slaughterings are derived, we have found an alarming deterioration in the overall conformation results. Lack of profitability in the last few years has led to a lack of investment in breeding stock. We believe that this trend can be reversed with proper attention to cattle genetics, and with some restructuring of payments which may include both market price returns and subsidies to reward better breeding and finishing of cattle.

362. Another of your questions, Mr. Chairman, is in regard to a possible contribution of co-operatives in the industry. We do not have any strong opinions in regard to this subject area, other than to comment that there is little evidence so far that the co-operative movement in Northern Ireland agriculture has achieved major success.

363. The final question which you raise is what government and farmers can do to make industry more competitive. This, of course, is a very challenging question for all of us. Dealing first with farmers, we believe that sheep and cattle producers must, first of all, be highly efficient with the technical knowledge to select breeds and husbandry practices that incur the lowest costs and yield the best productivity from their particular farming environment. They must be well-trained to meet the ever growing burden of paperwork which is an essential part of the future due diligence of food production, and of maximising of course the subsidy collection from the various schemes that are available to them.

364. Within the beef and sheep meat industry farmers must achieve, as I have said, the basic quality requirement of being farm assured to have a reasonable chance of getting out of the basic commodity end of the business. Finally, from the farmers' prospective that it is vital that the rules regarding animal traceability and identification are fully complied with. Farmers must ensure that births, movements, and deaths of livestock are properly registered and recorded.

365. Turning now to government, we firstly have to acknowledge that a major impediment to government action in our industry is the need for compliance with the State Aid rules of the European Union. There are, however, many areas where we believe government can help. First of all, I referred earlier to the strength of currency. While this may be in essence an indicator of economic success and to some degree out of the control of the government, we believe that the use of interest rates as the only lever for control of inflation is an unhelpful policy and likely to sustain currency at very high levels.

366. A major role of government is in education and training and it is clear from the foregoing that beef and sheep meat producers must be helped to achieve expertise, not only in the area of improving genetics on their farms, not only in improving efficiency and productivity, but also we believe in the area of maximising subsidy support which they can get from the regime. While in the pure sense we in the LMC are inclined against subsidisation and its affect of isolating producers from the marketplace, we recognise that a feature of competitiveness must be to maximise the take from the subsidy regime in which we live.

367. Government has a role in research and development, and we believe that much work needs to be done in this area. In particular we believe that there is a need to develop the interface between the beef and dairy industry and to harness technology which will allow us to move towards improving that part of our raw material which is a by-product of our milk producers.

368. We would like government where it is possible within the regime to support quality production within the national envelope. In particular under Agenda 2000 it is possible to direct some subsidisation towards quality livestock. We believe that that would be strategically beneficial.

369. The Chairman: Mr Rutledge, you have one minute left.

370. Mr Rutledge: We encourage government to direct rural development funds in support of quality improvements on livestock farms. We would expect government to encourage and to ensure a level playing field for our industry. Finally, we would of course continue to believe that from a strategic perspective our beef industry needs to have open to it again the opportunity to develop exports. The advancement of low incidence status for Northern Ireland, while not a panacea for our industry and certainly not a status that we would want at any cost, in particular if there were unworkable conditions, we believe that it is the major opportunity for government to advance the prospects for the entire industry.

371. I hope very briefly, Chairman, I have covered the headings that were given to us in your letter. Of course, we would be happy to dialogue with you on anything arising from that or from any other matters that are within our particular field of interest.

372. The Chairman: I just want to put a couple of general questions to you before my colleagues come in on this particular matter. In summing up you have given some of the answers to us, but in what ways do you believe farming structures need now to change to meet the demands of the future, and how do you see those changes can be brought about. I am thinking of the contribution of the farmers themselves and the contribution of government, and the contribution of yourselves and marketing the produce.

373. Mr Rutledge: Okay, that is a massive amount contained within that, Mr. Chairman.

374. The Chairman: Let me explain: We have to get a report before the Assembly and we need to be able to tell in our report as briefly as we can why we are coming to these conclusions. Therefore these summaries are essential to our work.

375. Mr Rutledge: Well, first of all on the structure, we believe that there will be a tendency for the smaller farms to be unable to sustain, as they have traditionally done, the family, the farming family. I think there is almost an inevitability therefore that part-time farming will become a major feature. We have to think within our industry of how we can better facilitate people being part-time participants in the industry. Regrettably, of course, the more part-timers there are, the more difficult it is to deal with the quality issues that will be helpful in the marketing of our produce. We believe, as I have said in the statement, Chairman, that we need to take seriously the issue of improving the quality of livestock from farms. That of course requires attention to detail, that is more difficult to achieve as people become part-time.

376. The Chairman: That is the farmer's duty. They will have to face up, in your opinion, to the fact that they need greater integration in the actual farms. What do you think the government can do to bring this about, or should do.

377. Mr Rutledge: First of all, the headings that I was giving you in regard to government, they have got to provide within the rules that are laid down the training and support to farmers to ensure that they have the necessary technical knowledge to advance the quality of product coming from their farms. As I have said, they have also got to have the wherewithal, the knowledge, and the support to maximise their take from the subsidy regimes that they have to deal with.

378. Government, of course, further down the chain have to try to be as lightfooted as they reasonably can, again within the European rules in terms of the burden of controls and bureaucracy that at the end of the day costs money for our industry.

379. The Chairman: Then what can you do for them?

380. Mr Rutledge: What can we do for them? Obviously from the marketing perspective I assume is what you are talking about. Obviously our role is to support the businesses of the industry in finding the best markets. We have, with the industry and with government, produced some couple of years ago a strategy that focuses on premium products for premium markets. We believe that we can be of assistance in seeking out those premium markets, conducting market research and bringing to the commercial operators within the industry the best opportunities for our industry. Of course, we are also operating at the other end of the scale with the producers, encouraging them to get products to meet those premium markets. There is a chicken and egg situation here where we have to ensure that we have sufficient of the quality product to meet these opportunities.

381. The Chairman: We well understand that.

382. Mr ONeill: Chairman, we are confident that Northern Ireland beef and lamb can find its way into the very best of the world markets if we can have this low incidence status that is currently on the table at the moment for discussion put in place. But the fact remains, even with getting our produce into the very best markets, the fact remains that for Northern Ireland farmers that probably won't be enough to sustain the industry as structured at the moment. If we might just go back a bit. I think that the big challenge going forward is that 10,000 jobs in the rural communities of Northern Ireland can be found that will enable part-time farming to be sustained alongside another means of deriving the necessary income.

383. The Chairman: Mr Tempest, do you want to blow up a storm amongst us?

384. Dr Tempest: There is also a move in the last three years and certain trends have become evident. The small farms have tended to remain fairly static, the medium farms have reduced as a proportion of the total farming, and large farms have actually increased by 12 % over the last three years, so you can begin to see the signs of a change. It seems to us that in the long term there will two major types of farming activity. One would be small part-time type farms and the other will be large farms that generate enough income to support one or two families. The middle guy will probably be the one that suffers most. Clearly, to support my colleague, the major issue of government in the increase in part-time farming is to create the environment which will create jobs in the rural community.

385. >The Chairman: Thank you very much. We have three of our members - my vice chairman George Savage, Mr Billy Armstrong, and Mr Francie Molloy will now come in. George?

386. Mr Savage: Chairman, I would like to ask our three representatives, the farmers tell us that they are not making money, the supermarkets, the retailers tell us that they are taking a hit on their profit margins. What about the middle men, are they in danger of going out of business like the farmers. I remember, Mr. Rutledge, speaking to you over a year ago at Balmoral Show and I had two bits of paper in my pocket from grading of cattle (I haven't forgotten this), there was the same cattle that came out of the same shed and went to two different factories, two different papers all together; grades. I think there is far too many grades of cattle in your Department. I think you have got do something about that. As we move on, the farmer has borne the brunt of this over this two or three year period. What has your Department done to try to help it.

387.Mr Rutledge: Okay, you raised a number of issues there. First of all, we have in the tabulation produced some information in regard to processors as a whole in GB. There is certainly some evidence that Northern Ireland processors have been profitable through this period where farmers have not, and certainly that does create a resentment. We do not have specific detailed knowledge of the profitability of processors in Northern Ireland. What we have given you in the handout is GB figures. The issue of grades is very contentious. The classification or grading of cattle is done in Northern Ireland as it is done in every Member State in compliance with the European grid. You are allowed subdivisions within the major EUROP 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 classifications. An operation of some subdivisions is permitted under the legislation within Northern Ireland. We have not got the option as a lot of people think we have of putting arbitrary grades on cattle. It is a massive undertaking to train people, to try to ensure that they are current and to try to ensure that all of the Member States are grading or classifying in an exactly similar manner. We try as best as we as human beings can do it. We also acknowledge that where there is doubt in a particular animal, where it is on the margin between grades, that we tend to favour the farmer. We continue to do that where we can. I think people have got to acknowledge the farmers are not the only people who complain to us. The processors will complain to us that we are grading too leniently. I suppose when they are both complaining to us we think we are probably doing it about right. We do not have the prerogative to arbitrarily change the grading standard, that is laid down, it is controlled by the competent authority, by government who supervise our activities in this area.

388. If the industry had the aspiration of reducing some of the subgrades we would be happy to go along with that, but then you get into a very complex debate as to whether that would be beneficial. Some people talk within the "o" range of conformation, instead of having three we could have only one, but I suppose a lot of customer specifications are saying we want U and R grade cattle, but most of them would take the O plus. If we went to a general O grade we might lose out some of that opportunity with some of the premium customers who we serve. So there are two sides to that debate in reducing some of the subdivisions.

389. Dr Tempest: There are two other issues.

390. The Chairman: We are running tight on time.

391. Mr Savage: The producers that export their cattle to Scotland, there are three grades over there, and we are all part of the UK here. I am not really fussy about what the grades are in the UK, I am concerned about what the grades are here in Northern Ireland. You are people who are employed here to look after the farmers in Northern Ireland. That is what we have got to do. We have got to back up the farmer because they have been at the receiving end for far too long. Unless something is done about it, unless something is done to protect them, they are not going to be here and when they are not here we do not need you people.

392. Dr Tempest: With all due respect, there are more than three grades in Scotland. It is basically the same EUROP grid.

393. The Chairman: With respect to Dr Tempest they are not all the same, there is a difference. You are talking about a subtle difference but it is a difference.

394. Dr Tempest: The O grade, there are two categories of O grade in GB and we have three categories of O grade but basically the EUROP 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 is, in essence, the same. As Mr Rutledge is saying, it is laid down in legislation. What the debate in the industry is at the moment, if you can imagine that we have seven conformation classes and six fat classes which give 42 squares on a grid, inevitably there are almost 42 different prices. We believe that the issue is not the number of grades but the number of price bands across that grid. Our information which we determined a couple of winters ago on saleable meat yield would show a lot of those grades could be banded together for the same payment. The other issue that government could do for us is to take heed of the recent report from the Republic in the assessment of three different machines for objective classification. That will have to go before the European Commission at some stage, but we believe there is merit in moving from what in essence is a subjective system to one with all the technology that we have these days to begin harnessing an objective system of classification which will predict saleable meat yields.

395. The Chairman: Well, we will have to move from that and give a great deal of thought to what you have said and we will have to consider that. Mr Armstrong?

396. Mr Armstrong: Right, as an exporting area what way do you see forward to achieve our BSE status and get us back to the level of what we were before BSE came in here? Looking back to pre-BSE days Northern Ireland was an area of high quality products with high health status, so BSE grading has knocked the bottom out of all our farmers whether pigs, dairy or whatever. What can you do to achieve us to get that status and what way do you see the way forward?

397. Mr Rutledge: I think that getting that status, as we have said, was a vital step forward. We agree with you we must re-engage as soon as we can in exports. Now that is not going to be easy, currency is against us and there's other issues. I think there is a lot that we can all do. First of all, there is a consultation going to be launched very soon throughout the UK on the proposal for Northern Ireland to move to a low incidence status. I think that there is a lot to be done to ensure that within the UK we get support from our peers across the water whether at producer, processor, retailer whatever level. So I think that there is in the short term, once this consultation paper is launched, I think there is a lot of work for all of us to do to ensure that we harness all the support we can get to ensure that within the UK we have a unanimous view. The Minister, for the moment, is on side with it. We need to ensure that we sustain that. Obviously having achieved that, my colleague has already said to you, we actually do not see any impediment to making progress with the sorts of customers that we dealt with prior to 1996. We have good contacts there, we do not believe that there will be any fundamental problem. There will be no long term taint of product from Northern Ireland. The major issue, once we get that status, will be the commercial one, making business profitable and again that is to do with currencies, with the extra costs on our industry that our competitors do not have to bear. We believe that every week there are parts of an animal that could be sold better in another market if we had the opportunity to go. The strength of a low incidence status, Mr. Chairman, as it is being pursued is that every plant would be able to export something even if it is only the trimmings for pet food. Those, even currently, can get a better price in other European countries. So it is all adding a little bit to the value of the animal that hopefully will allow us to rejuvenate and to get some money back down the line to the producers.

398. The Chairman: You want a supplementary?

399. Mr Armstrong: There would be a problem then of areas that were not low BSE, their product coming into the supermarkets in high situations, how would you see that problem being resolved?

400. Mr Rutledge: Well again the detail of the proposal being worked upon is seeking to facilitate that because the product coming in and offered for retail sale is actually not exportable to any greater extent than it is at the moment. At the moment there really is no restriction on someone coming in from another member state and buying some beef across the counter in a local supermarket and taking it home with them. So therefore certainly our argument is very strongly that retail sales should not be affected, retail sales of product coming in from GB, if logic has got anything to do with this (sometimes that is in doubt) then there is no logic for preventing that trade continuing.

401. The Chairman: Right we have to move now.

402. Mr Molloy: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you very much Mr. Rutledge. I appreciate your role does not involve having direct awareness of the level of debt within the industry. However from your perspective what would you see the banks or the Government doing to help the industry and do you consider they have been flexible enough within it?

403. Mr Rutledge: You are right, it is not a territory that we are intimately involved with. Yes, we have calls from time to time from farmers who have debt problems. They have come ringing mainly for advice; should I sell my cattle now or hold them? That is a very difficult situation for us to be in because again we cannot get involved in running individual's businesses for them. All we can do is tell them what the outlook is and he must make his own business decisions. So to that extent we are sort of on the edge of the whole debt issue. Certainly people have paid for land prices that are simply not sustainable and they have accumulated debts in better times that they are still living with. That is very, very tough and there are people - I suppose it is not a good answer on an industry basis, but from an individual point of view, land values have held up very, very well, therefore for the moment anyhow, in disposing of some of the land to release debts, there are opportunities there. Again, we would understand dealing with the specifics of your question, the banks have been reasonably supportive but at the end of day they are accountable to shareholders so there is clearly going to be a limit as to how long they can sustain unviable debts if there are unviable debts.

404. Mr Molloy: On the lines of the fairness touched on beforehand, the farmers often feel that they are actually at the wrong end of the scope, is there a means actually of increasing the fairness and transparency between the producer and the processor? Very much the farmers feel that they are at the mercy of the processor in that particular line and that when you go for the best market and prime goods are farmers being actually rewarded in that way? Is there a means of showing farmers the unfairness of that?

405. Mr Rutledge: First of all you are right, the farmer is the weakest, he is the smallest of the chain coming from the massive power of the multiple retailer through the less powerful but fairly powerful processing industry through to the individual farmers, the very, very weak sellers. You used the right word, our view is the more transparency we can get into the trading relationships the better. Having said that, I think that it would be very difficult to contemplate a scenario whereby our major customers and the prices they were paying for individual products were published. I suspect that might be a disincentive for them to trade with us if we went down that road, it is something that needs to be handled fairly carefully. Of course we would like to have the maximum amount of transparency on the trading between farmers and processors and certainly we will do all that we can to encourage that.

406. The Chairman: Mr Rutledge, if I might come in here just on this one, to say that a farmer could dispose of ground, I mean, could if he was not a large farmer mean that he would then go into part-time farming to try and get out of this which would not be at all, I am sure, wanted by a farmer?

407. The other thing is that ground is very valuable if you have planning permission on it and planning permission rurally is very, very difficult, it is ridiculously difficult and discriminates. So we do not see any way out of a farmer really getting rid of his debts on that particular - what would you say to me if I was a farmer and say you are asking me to sell part of my heritage, that is going to put me on a lower scale eventually and all I would get for it as land, while the price of land is good, and I mean it is holding up fairly well and you have said that, but that means you would put themselves out completely?

408. Mr Rutledge: I answered the question in the context of people if they have a debt burden that they cannot cope with, there is the way out. Okay, yes land is very, very valuable with planning permission but agricultural land has still held its value very well. I mean, the difficulty is, Chairman, in looking forward for all of us, is to how do you square this circle of the farmers wanting to pursue a way of life, wanting to sustain a livelihood from the land which is what they know and understand and yet the forces, the commerciality, everything militating against them? It is a conundrum, I do not think as yet we have an absolute solution to it. I haven't heard anyone else coming up with a long term solution.

409. Dr Tempest: The investment that the farmer makes in his land and his other assets are generally regarded as his pension fund, to dispose of those now to get rid of current debt leaves him in a difficult situation in the future. Having said that we have many farmers that are coming to us at the moment that are saying: I cannot survive much longer than this summer, I will go out of production myself and I will let my land out as conacre. If he does that he is looking for some employment.

410. The Chairman: But the other thing is that many farmers I know have actually paid out what they have put past for pensions to pay debt, so they have nothing in the kitty whatsoever.

411. Dr Tempest: Only their land.

412. The Chairman: We have to bring that to an end. I would like to thank you for coming to see us and giving us your time in answering the questions. We have got through quite a bit of ground here. We have now to plough it over and harrow it and put in, I trust, fertile seed and I trust it will be good land, and try to get answers to these questions.

413. Mr Rutledge: Thank you Chairman.

414. The Chairman: The Northern Ireland Meat Exporters are coming now.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 9 June 2000

Members Present:

Rev Dr Ian Paisley (Chairman)
Mr Savage (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Armstrong
Mr Bradley
Mr Dallat
Mr Douglas
Mr Ford
Mr Kane
Mr McHugh
Mr Molloy

Witnesses:

Mr C Duffy )
Mr C Mathers ) Northern Ireland Meat Exporters' Association

Northern Ireland Meat Exporters' Association

415. The Chairman: Could I just tell you gentlemen, the procedural matters? Mr Duffy, Mr Mathers, procedure is that you will give us an introduction for about ten minutes or so. I will ask a couple of questions, then Mr David Ford, Mr Gardiner Kane and Mr PJ Bradley will ask you questions and there will be a supplementary question to each of them. So if you would like to make your presentation now you are welcome.

416. Mr Mathers: Chairman, our presentation will not be ten minutes or so but we have opening comments we want to make.

417. The Chairman: It is just a time factor.

418. Mr Mathers: So first of all, Chairman, I thank you for the invitation to the Meat Exporters Association to meet your Committee this morning. Probably because we are more focused on red meat and the processing sector in particular perhaps some of our views may not precisely be in line with how the farming organisations might see the way forward, but we are particularly focused on the way forward because we do not see ourselves as having any particular insight into the debt of the entire agricultural community.

419. The Chairman: Yes.

420. Mr Mathers: And the farmers probably see things from a slightly different perspective, then we have to look at them ourselves. Nevertheless we appreciate the opportunity to input into the work that your Committee is trying to do to establish a strategy in the best interests in the Northern Ireland agri-food industry. Now, as an important part of the agri-food industry here the Meat Exporters Association would want to assist you in achieving that. We would ask that your Committee take cognisance of the Red Meat Strategy Report that was produced jointly by the farmers, the processors and Government agencies as already been presented to Ministers sometime ago because the contents of that Strategy Report would still be very relevant to where we see ourselves going to the future. We did express our feelings for the future to you in our written response at your initial request. If we are going to be serious about maintaining a viable agricultural industry as part of the Northern Ireland infra-structure then we believe some serious decisions will have to be made which may indeed prove painful in the process to everyone. In our view it is a prerequisite that further processing and added value to the raw materials produced in Northern Ireland farms should be done in Northern Ireland thus further assisting the employment in and preservation of life in the rural areas. I believe what we are doing at the minute needs to be improved on if there is to be a vibrant rural economy in the future.

421. The Northern Ireland Meat Exporters Association has a very clear vision ourselves of where we want to get to. Our aim is to be a world-class industry able to meet the demands of specific niche markets around the world. Our aim is to ensure the sustenance of rural prospects by a direct supply chain down a market focused route and to develop the Northern Ireland industry taking into account the constraints of Agenda 2000, the whole globalisation problem and the enlargement of the EU, all of which, we believe, will have a major, major effect on Northern Ireland Agriculture. To ensure a place on the top shelves of Europe's supermarkets then we have to be perceived as having something different. One of the main criteria will be Total Quality Assurance throughout the supply chain. Deciding on where we see ourselves going will then determine the actions that have to be taken to get us there. It will undoubtedly mean Total Farm Quality Assurance, IT development on farms and the introduction of e-commerce at farm level. We see this as a long term strategy which everyone has to buy into now to ensure a viable future for everyone. In your invitation today you indicated five areas in which you would like us to comment and we are happy to do that but we feel perhaps more qualified in some of those areas rather than all of them. So perhaps my opening remarks have already covered the first point that you asked to us to comment on in your letter. Now we are happy to answer some questions.

422. The Chairman: Right. Well thank you very much for giving us a good brief. It certainly helps us timewise so that we can come to the questions. I would like to put to you two questions that are really general because as you know we have to prepare a report, Mr Mathers, for the Assembly and we need to have evidence short and crisp that we can base certain conclusions on. Now, do you consider that the primary producer, the farmer himself, is getting a fair price for the products when you think that the consumer, that is the housewife, is saying to us, we do not see any vast drop in meat prices, in fact, we don't see any, in some shops we see a rise. Now how can the farmer get such a deplorable price compared with even years ago to what the housewife is being charged over the counter? Now what we are asking is a simple question: Are they getting a fair price for the produce or is the competition between the supermarkets of such a manner that farmers are really losing out in the big battle of the international supermarkets?

423. Mr Duffy: I think you have to look at the EU policies and strategies there, Agenda 2000, and what's happening is that they envisage world prices coming back and subsidies being increased. The market itself that we are living in at the moment is an unnatural market in the sense that it is the best market available, we only have one market. But when it is compared against the ROI or other markets out there who are quite willing to look rather enviably on the prices that have been paid in the GB market. The retailers would argue that there has been a 25% reduction overall to consumers in prices over the last number of years and we hope we will be able to get you some statistics on that to prove that. The other issue is very difficult here, that 35% to 40% of the value of the animal now comes in the form of a subsidy. There is definitely room for improvement in prices as they are presently structured, but what has to be addressed is the quality issue in our farming community at the moment where approximately 35% to 45% of the animals which we are producing are not basically wanted by retailers and this is largely due to farmers really ignoring the market demands and doing their own thing to a large extent.

424. The Chairman: Well farmers would not, with all due respect, Mr Duffy, farmers would not accept that. I mean we are faced in this Committee with a fact that there is crippling debt on farmers, a debt that they never envisaged would ever come to them the way it came and also came to them suddenly. Now, they are saying to us, look at the end of the chain when the produce is put on the shelf, the housewife seems to gain nothing, we are not getting the same price as we got years ago on the market comparably in the market. Let me just illustrate this to you, we met some time ago before this Committee was set up unofficially with various groups - the meat men, the producers who produce the stuff when it is sold to them from raw meat from the carcass - I asked them: Are any of you fellows going bankrupt? Are any of you considering suicide? Not one of them. Then we brought in the bankers and we asked them were they thinking of selling their car and driving a cheaper model and none of them, they weren't contemplating suicide. But farmers are committing suicide, farmers are under tremendous mental stress because they are in a position they were never in before. The housewife then turns on us and says: You are always talking about the farmers, but what about us, we get no benefit from this at all? Now we are trying to find who is making these gains. Are they legitimate gains or are they an exploitation of the circumstances that have brought about this situation? So what I am asking is really, do you feel that the farmer is getting a fair price for what he produces?

425. Mr Duffy: On average the farmer is getting a fair price, he could presently, if he had the quality required, be getting more, but what is happening is that there is an averaging going on out there. To ask; is there exploitation? If you look at the costs that have come in and sophistication of the market we are serving and legislative burdens that have been put on the industry, no. It amazes us when we look at what farmers are paying for store cattle at the moment it just does not make sense. So why would they continue to go out despite the fact we accept they are custodians of the land and there is hardship out there, there are people going out there and paying prices for store cattle at the moment which do not make sense.

426. The Chairman: Well let me put one other question and my colleagues must come in, would you agree that farmers need to come together in co-operative producer groups if the industry is to lift itself out of this crisis?

427. Mr Duffy: Yes, it is the only way. And I think that hopefully this group, agri-vision group, will highlight the opportunities that are there to put us ahead again in the market, especially when we look at the export situation when it re-develops for us again. The only way forward is for us to come together on strategies because no farmers, no meat plants.

428. The Chairman: Right, thank you.

429. Mr Mathers: Just one other point Chairman as well, it is very often forgotten that since 1996, since the BSE crisis came in, that the industry has had to deal with over 70 pieces of new legislation, each one have added costs into the business. We are currently sitting and you are going to Brussels next week on the 13th to deal with the beef levy, one which is estimated to add another 8% -

430. The Chairman: Strasbourg actually.

431. Mr Mathers: - to the cost of production. Now if you get done what we have asked you to do, it will reduce that cost up to 3% or 4%. That is another cost there that we have no control over neither have you, nobody, anybody else in this room.

432. The Chairman: It is unclear what will happen in that Parliament, major lobbies, if the Germans and the French gang up on us we haven't a chance, it just falls by the wayside, but I take the point. Thanks for those questions, crisp and to the point. Mr David Ford, Mr Gardiner Kane and Mr PJ Bradley are my colleagues who are going to deal with you now. Mr Ford?

433. Mr Ford: Thank you Chairman. I want to take up really the last point that you were making, Mr Mathers. I was reading your written submission earlier, you referred to the 70 pieces of legislation since 1996 adding to costs and specifically leaving Northern Ireland as one of the most uncompetitive regions of Europe, are you saying that the legislative burden is significantly higher in Northern Ireland or perhaps in the UK than across Europe generally?

434. If so, why? And can I add to that do you think the beef industry is over-regulated or are these regulations necessary for consumer safety and consumer confidence?

435. Mr Mathers: In the case of Northern Ireland the proposed regulations bear no relevance at all to the risk that BSE here poses. Therefore in Northern Ireland the situation is totally over-regulated. In fact, there were 70 pieces of legislation when I wrote that letter, more have come into place since that, so the situation has got even worse. We would certainly subscribe to the Red Tape review that was carried out across the UK sometime ago when there were a number of recommendations made there about reducing that red tape. We would subscribe and agree with most of those recommendations that were made, we would certainly say that from a relevant risk basis in Northern Ireland yes we are over-regulated. You must remember that those regulations are relevant to the UK only which automatically puts the industry not only in Northern Ireland, us more so perhaps because of our low incidence status, but the UK generally at a much greater disadvantage than the other member states in Europe.

436. Mr Ford: Could you give us any kind of estimate for the total percentage costs added on for those 70 pieces of legislation? You referred to 8% for one measure, I presume they are not all at 8%?

437. Mr Mathers: I could not give you precise ...

438. Mr Ford: A precise guesstimate?

439. Mr Mathers: A precise guesstimate at all, but certain parts of legislation meant that at one time parts of the animal which brought a net income now are a net cost to the entire industry and that has a double effect. If you are getting 10p for something today and it costs you 10p to dispose of it tomorrow the net effect is 20p.

440. Mr Ford: Another point you made in the same part of your submission is less than 50% of cattle in Northern Ireland had export status effectively because of paperwork problems. Is that the fault of the Government, or farmers in your opinion and what can or perhaps what should be done by the Government about it?

441. Mr Duffy: It is partly due on two fronts, one is to the producer and the other is to the actual red tape that is involved. We are still very constrained by the information that we can get from our Department here and disappointed at the progress we have made on the APHIS system to date which under the Red Meat Strategy was meant to be finished now and to be the most sophisticated of its kind in Europe.

442. I suppose the other problem is really to the changing goal posts, again legislation to do with cattle movements and birth registrations which farmers not intentionally, but really when they have no interest, or do not see a bright future, do not bother burdening themselves with all this extra paper work and at this stage do not really see the relevance of it, but it will obviously have major relevance when we go back to an exporting situation. You could very easily end up in a two tier market with animals fit to travel and animals that are not.

443. Mr Mathers: Could I add just one little bit of information perhaps. The fact that while I said in that report that there were less than 50 % exportable, our figures currently, we are monitoring ourselves through the meat plants day-by-day, show a range of 37 to 43%, so it is even worse than that.

444. Mr Ford: Sorry, 37 to 43 exportable.

445. Mr Mathers: Exportable. So if we had low incidence export status in the morning, we have a problem.

446. The Chairman: Thank you. Mr. Kane?

447. Mr Kane: Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Mathers, what can be done to tackle the problem of over 50% of our annual lamb crop being smuggled into the Republic of Ireland. What effect is this having on the Northern Ireland sheep sector?

448. Mr Mathers: I do not know what you can do to stop that. That is probably a problem for authorities other than the meat industry, but it is a serious problem. It has just meant that over the last 10 years or so the lamb industry in Northern Ireland has not been able to develop to the extent of the potential that is there. The current currency differential between the punt and sterling has probably dampened that effect slightly, and over the last couple of years we have seen an increase in the number of lambs being processed in Northern Ireland. But our estimate is that there is somewhere in the region of about 1.2 million lambs available in Northern Ireland each year for processing. Last year I think we processed somewhere in the region of 490,000 of those, therefore that gives you the extent at which lambs are being moved elsewhere for processing that could be creating jobs and employment and assistance to the whole rural economy in Northern Ireland.

449. Mr Kane: Secondly, Chairman, as meat exporters you are well aware of the Farm Quality Assurance game. What benefit has the Farm Quality Assurance game brought to the Northern Ireland meat industry, as we understand that there is meat being imported into Northern Ireland that is not farm quality assured and then in turn the same meat being exported out again, going out as Northern Ireland Farm Quality Assured.

450. Mr Duffy: Well, Farm Quality Assurance is a prerequisite to supply to any premium market. The absence of it leaves you in a commodity market. It is imperative that the scheme which is only in 50 % of the farms at the moment in Northern Ireland is put into all of the farms. Unfortunately, yet again because of the view in farming at the moment and the pressures that are there, a lot of farmers do not see it worth the while, and what is actually happening is those within the scheme are having to accept a lower price because of the cost of those who are not in the scheme pulling the sector down. With regard to meat coming into Northern Ireland, are you making reference to an XAP scheme.

451. Mr Kane: There is food being imported into Northern Ireland that is not Farm Quality Assured, and I have information about it, it is going back out again as Northern Ireland Farm Quality Assured with a stamp on it.

452. Mr Duffy: Well, can I say that perhaps you have to ask the people who are actually doing that. All of I am aware of is meat coming in officially into Northern Ireland under a scheme is the XAP scheme, which is the basis for holding a customer, a very important customer with a particular company. As far as I am aware as well, they actually have their own scheme in place and their customers make allowances for that. So I do not really understand any shortcomings in it.

453. Mr Kane: Chairman, I just note the Chief Executive of the LMC shaking his head there, but that is not here nor there. I am quite well aware personally that the LMC is not carrying out their remit in relation to this issue. Thank you, Chairman.

454. The Chairman: It seems to me a serious thing that our Committee will have to delve into a bit better. I am a bit worried about customers having a special place to get meat in a certain way and then we do not know what is happening to it after it is in.

455. Mr Duffy: I would say the most tightly controlled meat coming into Northern Ireland is meat coming in under an XAP scheme and then leaving. The regulations that control the red tape associated to it is phenomenal. To answer how the meat is being stamped or labelled, that is purely between the company and the customer and I cannot comment on that.

456. Mr Kane: Thank you, Mr. Duffy, for your comments. Thank you, Chairman.

457. Mr Bradley: My question relates back to your opening question, Mr. Chairman, to do with the openness within the industry. I say to the gentlemen no doubt by now you are familiar with the exercise launched last week in the Republic of Ireland, where farmers and meat plant managers have come together to announce on a weekly basis the price of meat as being sold from the factory. Would you see that being introduced here, and if not being introduced here; why not introduce it here? The openness would certainly eradicate a lot of fears or a lot of concerns that are there amongst the farming community about excessive profits being made by the meat plants.

458. Mr Duffy: We would welcome any scheme that would show greater transparency or would enlighten the producers to what was actually happening in the marketplace. A lot of those prices are readily available through a number of bulletins published on a weekly basis. There are sensitivities there and we must be pretty mindful of that and how we have built up a trade in the absence of exports over the last four/five years. We watch very closely what is happening, the exact mechanism of the scheme and how it is going to work; what prices, how are they going to reflect, are they going to name customers and the price, are they going to name whether it is wholesale or retail. All of that is very complicated but we would watch it, we would welcome it, we watch it within the LMC. We already work with them on a number of issues with regard to pricing or whatever. We would not have a problem with that.

459. Mr Bradley: I think if it was introduced there would be less fingers pointed at the meat plant.

460. Mr Duffy: It would also highlight a difference out in the marketplace, where an animal which has farm quality assurance and is retail, and an animal that is not can be anywhere between £50 or £60 or £70 of a difference, and perhaps more.

461. Mr Mathers: Could I just add to that, and that is I have been in the meat industry all my life, both from working with the competent authority and then working with the industry. I think Northern Ireland has been the forerunner in this and in setting examples for other parts of world. Every week the LMC produce a bulletin and in it there are two sections - one is a forward-looking section with what prices may be next week and the other is the actual historical prices. I do not think there is any part of the agricultural industry that is better serviced anywhere in the United Kingdom or Ireland any better on prices and on the clarity of price and where they are in relation to the market than what the LMC produces every week. That is independent. That is not our prices or anybody else's thoughts on the matter. It is an independent set-up, information that is there on which, like watching the stock market, if you watch it consistently you can see exactly the trend in the industry.

462. The Chairman: Thank you. I think that Mr. Boyd Douglas wants to come in.

463. Mr Douglas: The hearing today, there are some things that have been highlighted very much - quality products for a premium product, or premium products for a premium market, highlighted by the LMC. You say that 40 % of our animals are not up to standard. I have to say that as a dairy farmer that has been caught up in this, once you get the grants, animals coming from the dairy herd could go into beef. That is not going to happen any longer. Is there anything you can do as an association to highlight this more, to raise awareness of this serious problem that we have, because I don't know if you really agree with the subsidies about better farming on a price for quality premium. Is there anything we can do in co-operation to help the whole industry to get out of the rut we are in at this present time so that we can have this quality product. We have that many different types of continental cattle, we have to accept that there are a lot of products out there not to standard. If you do not accept this we have no hope of surviving in the long term. Can you say is your role important in seeing the way forward in this.

464. Mr Mathers: Just before Mr. Duffy comments on that, if you go back to my opening remarks I think the whole thing has to start with not only us, we have already set our aims and our goals and our vision as I read out to you at the beginning, but we have to sit down in Northern Ireland as a whole for the whole of agriculture, not just the beef industry. The European enlargement, if you think you have problems now, personally speaking I think you are going to have bigger problems in three or four or five years time when Poland starts producing milk at half the price that you are producing it at at the moment. I think you are really going to have problems then. I think we are going to have to set our vision and set our aim, set out at the very beginning to mark where we are going and set the standards and set the quality that we are going to aim at, set our ability to trade in that area up on the top shelves of Europe or anywhere else in the world. That is the starting point to us, to set your vision and work to that. If you do not do that you are lost.

465. The Chairman: Would you say that farmers are producing a quality product in Northern Ireland.

466. Mr Mathers: Those that have gone and worked with the schemes and joined in the farm quality assured are producing some of the best products certainly that are available in the world. But some of them doing it is not enough, we really have to have all doing it.

467. The Chairman: Well, how far percentage wise have we become competitive with the rest of the markets that are fighting for the buyers. I mean, could you give us any idea of how far advanced we are overall in agriculture as a real competitive agricultural producing.

468. Mr Duffy: I think there are two parts to this. One is in terms of where are we different in terms of quality and traceability. I mean assurance, we were among the top three. Now what has happened is that others have learned by what we have done, particularly in the assurance schemes, and have copied those and improved on them. We are now very much average but, as I said earlier on, with what we visualise under the strategy we have the ability to go way ahead of those people again. That is the way we have to be thinking because if we sit where we are, we are going to go more and more down a commodity market, and with enlargement and other things and globalisation we will just be hammered. To answer the question with regard to the quality aspect of it, we are not differentiating enough in terms of our assured cattle, and the way to solve the quality problem or to try to solve it is to sit down with the producers and look at the genetics, particularly in the dairy. You cannot look at the beef sector in isolation, you have got to look at the whole industry together. There you have to look at the horizontal and the vertical aspect of that and cohese them together, otherwise what is going to happen is what has happened over the last three or four years - that there are producers out there taking what they think to be the quickest and profitable route, in inverted commas, and that has led to a deterioration in quality and sort of an intransigence on their behalf to pick their subsidies, and ignoring what the market is saying. It is incumbent on us to sit down and work it out. I honestly believe we can do that.

469. Mr McHugh: Just in relation to the whole business of visioning, and listening to the presentations this morning I would be quite angry and concerned as to where we are going to go with the visioning. You are coming at it from almost an anti-farmer point of view. That is coming across to me anyway. If you are going to go through the visioning, if everyone else is coming along with their point of view, the flashier side of the industry down to the farmer, and if you come at it from that point of view, I do not know how you intend to get to a point where the whole industry is working for the one end, in other words, a secure future. I cannot see a secure future with people at your end of the market dealing with everything beyond the farm gate, putting blame on the farmers. You talk about farmers not co-operating with quality assured, not getting everybody involved in it and so on, and not bothering about paperwork. The fact is in any industry if you do not have a return - the only thing that makes people get up the morning is returns. At the moment farmers are not getting returns. The Chairman has mentioned already you are talking about exploitation: Farmers have always been exploited to the benefit of everyone else beyond the farm gate. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is in your interests to keep them that way. In the long term interest for the future of the industry, if everyone moves part-time, if you take everything into account, look at things properly rather than truths and half truths, we might get to a point where everyone is working for the one end. I do not think that is happening at the minute. People are blaming each other. We have a very serious situation and also a serious situation for the future. For people to come in and give us truths and half truths about the industry is not going to work. I would like to know what you yourselves are prepared to do to try to get farmers to want to go down the road of quality assured. It has done nothing or very little for farmers. Farmers are not geared for quality either north or south; you will get as much for Friesian cow beef. What about the business of mince meat, you can sell that anywhere and there is big money to be made, and it is the lowest quality and the lowest common denominator in the beef. You have responsibilities yourself, so has the LMC, people in leadership positions to take the whole industry. I want to know what you are prepared to do yourselves in relation to that instead of pointing the finger at the farmers.

470. Mr Duffy: We are not pointing the finger at farmers, we are just basically being asked what are the problems. To say that we are exploiting people and we would continue to do that because it is in our interests I would flatly reject. No farmers, no meat plants, as I said before. What we can do is there have been several schemes offered to farmers, which they have been very slow to take up, by a number of plants in Northern Ireland and this, I think, comes backs to the mistrust that is there. Yes, it is up to us to try and build on that and change on that, but the only way that is going to be done is by everybody coming together and really sitting down and saying this is what we can do, this is what the market is going to be. There is no manna going to come out of the sky with regard to increased prices. We are never going to go back where we were, never.

471. Mr McHugh: That is not the point I am making. There should be a fair cut. The consumers are being asked to pay more.

472. Mr Duffy: That is wrong, consumers are not being asked to pay more.

473. Mr McHugh: Mr. Chairman, everybody else's cut beyond the farm gate has not dropped, that is what I am saying. They are all making a certain profit, they are taking the cut.

474. The Chairman: I think the point has been made and the point from the point of view of Mr Duffy has been answered. We have time for one from you, Mr. Ford, just a quick one, because we have three minutes.

475. Mr Ford: Thank you, Mr Chairman. You talked about quality earlier in the context of genetics, but there is evidence this morning that we are developing a split between a few full-time farm businesses and a large number of part-time businesses in the future. What I want to know is how you can encourage the small producers who we need to remain in rural areas for a viable society to get into the quality mode that you were talking about, because it seems to me your remarks have not been addressed to those 15,000 or 20,000 people that we need to keep in some sort of production.

476. The Chairman: Could you be brief, Mr. Duffy, please.

477. Mr Duffy: Coming back, the will is there at the moment. A group of people have been brought together to deal with the situation and to use the resources that are there in Northern Ireland, the scientific resources as well, to try and solve this problem and prove to the people that by producing a better quality of an animal they will reap a better reward.

478. The Chairman: Thank you very much. We are sorry the time ran out for us, and thank you for not having a long introduction because that really helped us to put more questions. Not everybody will be satisfied with the answers, but at least they got an opportunity.

479. Mr Mathers: We know what to do the next time, we will have a longer introduction.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 9 June 2000

Members Present:

Rev Dr Ian Paisley (Chairman)
Mr Savage (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Armstrong
Mr Bradley
Mr Douglas
Mr Ford
Mr Kane
Mr McHugh

Witnesses:

Mr P Casement ) Ulster Agricultural
Mr I Murray ) Organisation Society Ltd

Ulster Agricultural
Organisation Society Limited

480. The Chairman: The Ulster Agricultural Organisation Society Ltd. We are glad to have Mr Ian Murray and Mr Patrick Casement with us today. Could I just say to you, gentlemen, that the way we operate is that you have an opportunity to make your opening statement which can last for 10 minutes, or slightly over that if you need it, and then we go around the table and have our questions to you. We like to make the questions brief and to the point and the answers brief and to the point because we are charged with preparing a report and we have to build the basis for our consideration of this matter on that report, and it is nice to have nice crisp summaries of issues that we can build on. I am sure you will appreciate that. Welcome, thank you for coming, and we will let you make your presentation now. Mr. Murray, are you going to do it?

481. Mr Murray: No, the Chairman.

482. Mr Casement: Thank you very much, both for inviting us and giving us the opportunity to contribute to the inquiry today. We have been given five points that we have been asked to address. I am going to concentrate and focus on the final point, the contribution that co-operatives can make to the industry, but in doing so I hope to cast light, if you like, on the three other points above that. I am afraid the first point we feel is probably rather outside the remit of our organisation and we will not be making any comment on that.

483. The Chairman: That is all right.

484. Mr Casement: I want to illustrate the contribution co-operatives can make to the industry by a description of the activities of the Co-op of which I am actually Chairman. This is an organisation called Greenglens Marketing based in the Moyle area. It started eight years ago as a buying group, tendering for commodities for its members who bought the stuff individually but agreed to take them from a common supply. This has reduced the cost of inputs, the major inputs into our farms, of up to 15 %. We have brought our feed stuff, fertilisers, fuel, fencing materials, veterinary products, and various other items in this way, and also purchased in services, including sheep scanning, cattle scanning and freeze-branding for our cattle. This is a major saving of the input for any farmer. We have branched out into lamb marketing, and along with other lamb groups we have been supplying lambs directly to the abattoir. Through our efforts we are rewarded for our quality and therefore have a direct input into improving the products that are available. We reduce the marketing and transport costs by working together. We save a lot of time by not having to spend hours in the markets. We have the ability to respond to market demands through the rapid feedbacks from the meat plants. We have the ability to negotiate with the meat plants about matters pertaining to the carcasses and so on. It shortens the chain between the producer and the consumer and it improves the quality of the carcasses that are available to be sold to the consumer. They have a longer shelf life and are a better quality product. The co-operative provides a focus for education and development of the farmers within it. We have run many training courses with the Department. We have talks and discussions; we have set up a grassland group which improves the way we manage the grass on our farm; we have organised visits to our agricultural colleges, both in the North and across the border in the Republic; we have looked at alternative methods of marketing our products, such as suckler cows and store lambs which are traditionally sold though livestock markets. We are faced with the closure of one market locally in Ballycastle so we have had to look at alternatives for that. We are setting up a skills register among our members so that we can exchange labour and equipment and so on among our members at a time when there is an acute labour shortage for skilled stockmen in the area. We have been able to source among ourselves and between ourselves access to each other's skills. We are involved in a rural development initiative (Gardiner will be aware of this) on a rural heritage project, looking at trying to get ruined buildings of various sorts back into use in the countryside. This is in its early stages. I was talking yesterday to the Heritage Lottery Fund and they are extremely excited by this and are keen to fund it, and it is through our co-operative that we are looking to source the money. Finally we are moving on to work outside of our own group but with other groups of farmers on a larger scale. We have combined with several other groups to supply a rural support officer who is helping with these various rural development initiatives, and looking to source finance and funding for projects that we wish to carry on. We are working together with other lamb groups in the Province starting up a group called the Ulster Lamb Group which has various functions, including a sort of education dissemination of knowledge, but which is hoping to move on and provide the lamb groups with a real marketing power within the sale and distribution of lambs. It is early days yet but it is making progress toward that. It is interesting that within those lamb groupings there are some members who are co-operatives and there are some that are not. The ones that are co-operatives have all been able to build up not necessarily large but some capital resource, those who are not co-operatives have no funds whatsoever at their disposal, which is hampering perhaps the activities in some of the groups. In seven years we have achieved that. We have grown to 75 members. The opportunities that are available for larger Co-ops that have existed for longer, such as many of the dairy organisations, are much, much greater and many of them have taken advantage of it. Many of you will be aware of the very exciting and ambitious Biogas project that Fivemiletown Co-op are trying to develop with the help of ourselves in UAOS, and there are other examples of other organisations moving into other schemes with great benefits, potential benefits for their members. However, I would stress that co-operatives do not appear just spontaneously out of nowhere. Development work is vital, both to get them off the ground and to continue with the development. Some Co-ops need support, they need legal advice, they need advice on employment, they need advice on training. This is carried out by UOAS, the body that we are representing today, and its dedicated staff.

485. Mr Casement: Now, your inquiry today is looking into the problem of indebtedness. Inevitably the agricultural recession has hit co-ops as hard as it has any other organisations and individuals in the Agriculture industry. They are all, whatever their activities, all co-ops are showing downturns in turnover, many of them have moved from profit into loss in the last 2 years. We are also facing the problem at the present moment of the hiatus in European funding which has put a halt to many rural development initiatives that we might be involved in and other development initiatives because there is no external funding available and internal funding from the co-ops is assured. This means that all member co-ops of UAOS have less to give by way of affiliation fees to UAOS itself and the parent body (ourselves) is now facing financial difficulties as well. This is creating a major problem for the continuing work of co-ops. I hope I have given you some flavour of what co-operative action can achieve in a rural community but I would stress that it requires a guiding hand and I think that UAOS are the only people who are in a position to provide that, and it is very difficult under the present circumstances.

486. The Chairman: Thank you. Well I am sure our members will be quite alarmed that your organisation received no subsidy from Government, I think that is a very alarming thing. I might say that your colleague did bring this to my notice. I have told him that he needs to make representation again to the Government and pass on his representation to this Committee. I am sure that we would like to look into that because your sister organisation across the water is subsidised. It seems to me that there is discrimination here from the Department who try to tell us, I suppose, that they do all the work. Well I mean I do not think they can do this work. I think that what you have reported of some successes, especially in the greatest of all constituencies, North Antrim, is of course very pleasing to me personally and I am sure to my colleagues around this table, but that is a matter for another day. But I think we need to put that firmly on the record that here is an organisation who gets nothing from the Government yet is pushing away in self help efforts to do what needs to be done all over the province.

487. I have a couple of general questions I want to put to you. They are rather judgmental but the fact is we need to have answers to these types of questions. How adaptable has the Northern Ireland farmer been to changes in consumer demand on quality and type of produce? If your answer is relatively quite good, could you give us some examples. If they have been quite bad could you give us such examples.

488. Mr Murray: I would again refer to the Lamb Marketing Co-operatives and in particular one which I am actually Secretary, which is Strangford Down Limited. It has worked very successfully over the past five or six years with WD Meats in Coleraine. They have built up a trust together and every member gets their grading back on all lambs so they can then use different, better quality rams to improve grading if it is poor, and grading figures have shown improvements over the years. It has now got to the point where they are, in fact, able to market their own lamb under their own brand name of Strangford Down through some of the supermarkets within their own home County. We believe this is taking on board what the consumer requires and is a good example to others to try to please the local consumer with local produce.

489. Dr Paisley: So you would say that in Northern Ireland farmers are making an effort, even with all the darkness overhead and dark clouds, they are making an effort to supply the consumer with the right sort of article and also to improve on it?

490. Mr Murray: I would certainly say that within the lamb industry. I think maybe there are still doubts within the beef sector and for my sins I am also company secretary of AI Services Northern Ireland Limited who, I think, may have addressed your Committee in the past. There is certainly great concern among that organisation about the number of bulls in the province and the number of bulls of, dare I say, dubious quality.

491. The Chairman: Thank you very much. Now, do you think that Northern Ireland produce is being marketed effectively? If you do not think that, could you suggest to us ways of improving that? It is a broad brush question because really we need to have these questions answered to build on our reporting.

492. Mr Casement: I think like many things there is a mixed bag here. I think some products are being marketed extremely well and others are being marketed extremely badly. I think we have failed to a large extent to capitalise on our, if you like, clean green image in Northern Ireland. I think more could be made of that. I would like to have seen more initiatives on trying to market, for example, we have talked a bit about lamb today because there is quite a lot of experience, that has been a relatively successful story, but I think it could have been much more successful in that we could be marketing the lamb abroad in some of the ways in which beef was marketed abroad before the beef ban where we had set up links with supermarkets on the Continent and so on. I think perhaps more could be done to do the same sort of thing with our lamb coming from much the same sort of farm, many of the same farms with the same sort of quality, same sort of lack of environmentally harmful inputs into those farms. So much more could be done in that way.

493. Mr Murray: If I could add, Chairman, I think too that quite a large portion of our produce currently are with what is known as the commodity markets. I think there must be an opportunity to become more innovative to promote Northern Ireland products, a lot of it goes into own brand marketing and it is not actually recognised as produce from Northern Ireland. I think there must be scope, we are not big enough to compete with the South Americas in terms of commodity beef products, for example, so we must look at innovation.

494. The Chairman: Right, thank you. One final question I want to put to you, do you consider the increase in major supermarkets, retailers, in Northern Ireland has undermined or has it strengthened the agri-food industry? I know it is a leading question, these are the things that we have to put to people, we want to know the attitudes of organisations to them.

495. Mr Casement: I would be inclined to feel that it has undermined it to a certain extent because of the point that Ian has just made concerning the own brand, that they always wish to put their brand on it and there is then a lack of identity for our own product here. I feel that this is a major problem and it is going to create further problems if we wish to add quality to our product; add value to our product, is that we are going to come up against this, the constant desire to put their own brand name on to it and to avoid other brand names. It makes it very difficult for us to make inroads into markets outside of the province. I think some of them have done better in ensuring that they source their products here in Northern Ireland to sell in Northern Ireland, but I am afraid because we produce so much more food than we can eat we have to look well beyond that all the time.

496. Mr Murray: I think also Chairman in the sourcing of it they have put pressure on the margins on the farm, there is no question about that. Also this idea: "we want one Supplier."

497. The Chairman: That is the sort of feedback we are getting, yes, thank you very much. Now we come to some of the questions from my colleagues, first of all Boyd Douglas?

498. Mr Douglas: Thanks Chairman, I think at face value you told us this morning you've reduced costs by 15%, you have improved the marketing, reduced costs for transport and this type of thing, more or less talking better quality for premium prices. In some ways by organising the market for your lambs and beef you are guaranteeing a fixed number of stock to meat plants on certain days, something that concerns some people a little, could you say that you are receiving better prices for your stock above those outside the co-op or do you feel that power of your numbers has benefited the whole Northern Ireland industry?

499. Mr Casement: I would say that at times we have certainly managed to get much better prices than other ways, methods of marketing, but not invariably. There have been distortions in the market caused by the movement of lambs to the Republic of Ireland over the last few years, there have been ebbs and flows in that trade and that has sometimes distorted the live market price. There are also different requirements for the lambs on each side of the border with regard to the grading systems and so on that pertain in different meat plants on each side of border. So it is quite difficult to answer that but I think consistently we have been able to achieve the same sort, at least equivalent prices and often better prices, and we are producing a lamb that the market is looking for rather than just selling commodity lambs, aiming at the upper end of the market. I am sorry, I have lost the other half of your question.

500. Mr Douglas: Just basically then do you feel that the power of your numbers and co-ops are helping the whole Northern Ireland industry?

501. Mr Casement: I do not think we have caused a major problem to anybody else in the industry in that I think it is important probably there are varieties of ways of marketing produce: that is important, there is not just one, so there probably is not room for everybody to be marketing their lambs this way, but there are always going to be lambs, even within our organisation and within lamb marketing groups, there are always lambs that are not suitable for the market the lamb group is trying to supply, if you like. So even within the group there are always lambs that are going to have to find other outlets. I do not think we have caused a problem in that sense.

502. Mr Murray: I think too Chairman, it is also important to remember that the co-operatives marketing lambs to meat plants have to meet very stringent quality requirements. If you like there is a negotiated deal at the start of the season and there are bonuses paid, but they are very much placed on high quality. There are also very stringent penalties where the lambs do not meet that quality.

503. Mr Douglas: Thanks, Mr Chairman.

504. The Chairman: Right we come then to yourself now?

505. Mr McHugh: I welcome the opportunity to speak to the UAOS partly because I have a belief that there is merit in the whole business of co-operatives. I think we talked earlier to some of the others, the exploitation of farmers has always been partly because of their own idea of staying as individuals and not becoming organised, that has certainly worked in the present climate to their detriment. It was mentioned by one of the other groups, earlier on in one of the presentations, that there has been little evidence so far to show that co-operative farming has achieved any success. I am just saying that if you benchmark that against DANI's success at farm level at the present time, you know, you could start to ask questions too. So my question would be in relation to the lack of organisation before the farm gate, everyone else beyond the farm gate is organised virtually against the interests of the farmer in many ways in terms of returns. So I am wondering what you can say to us in terms of taking things from here and I think this is a particular time when farmers should get organised and perhaps look to the role of co-operatives or the UAOS. I am also concerned by the fact you are not funded in any way, that has got to be a great detriment to success, but you are doing some good work such as the work at Fivemiletown, I think there is a good future in that. I am just wondering about your ideas of how we could take things forward in the present day and in the new situation?

506. Mr Murray: Well I think we have circulated the list of our achievements in bringing people together. Unfortunately the Northern Ireland person is a trifle independent by his nature and the history of Marketing Boards also stymie development of voluntary co-operatives. I think you have referred to our funding, I think that is something that needs to be put right, to at least have the staff on the ground to meet the farmers and encourage them to come together and demonstrate the success of examples. I think we also do require perhaps a more positive approach from the industry beyond the farm gate to farmers being brought together to market their produce. I think that is also very important that there is encouragement from there to do that.

507. Mr McHugh: Mr Chairman, I would say that is a key point, if others beyond the farm gate are not to work in isolation. At the end of day we all need farmers, we all need produce and if you get enough part-time farmers you will find that in the years to come we may have no industry at all and everyone will be out of a job, but I think it is key in the idea of provision for the future that people beyond the farm gate, meat plants and supermarkets, the consumer side of it, all need to work together and I think that yourselves offer a good part of that. I think I would like to see something being done in relation to organising farmers at their own level.

508. Mr Murray: Chairman, if I might just add that we have, believe it or not, since March 1998 when, at the Department's behest, we were asked to meet with a Steering Committee of pig farmers and with the Chairman and Managing Director of Scotling, the Scottish pig market co-operative, we have since then had 40 meetings with that Steering Committee, we have had a number of meetings with, in particular, the Malton Bacon Company to try and progress a contract and bring a very substantial number of pig farmers together who would wish to supply pigs of good quality and kept under good environmental and animal health conditions. Alas, as I say, we still have not got there despite having 40 meetings, quite a number with that company.

509. The Chairman: We are actually meeting them this afternoon. Of course, the pig industry has gone right down into the darkest shadows as we all know, but we are encouraged that meetings are taking place and we have got to work at it and not give up because it would be a tragedy if we lost our pig industry. That is what it has been heading for. Indeed, I have said on deputations and my colleagues have said: Does the Northern Ireland Department want to get rid of the pig industry? Because we have looked upon some of the decisions they have made as if they did not mind whether it went into a state of demise or not. I think that is very serious and it is a matter that concerns us all. My Deputy?

510. Mr Savage: Mr Murray, what can Government do to assist the industry to make the change from one of fragmented production to co-operative producer group led production?

511. Mr Murray: Well, I would hope that, through you, Chairman, that they could work with us and they do have, I would give credit where credit is due, the Supply Chain Development Division within the Department who are seeking to do that, I believe we can work and by working together we can probably achieve more than by not working together and trying to move this idea of co-operation forwards because we have again got to look at the continent. We have only got to look at New Zealand, Australia and elsewhere to just see how much their industry is controlled by the actual producers. I mean we are seeing currently in England the Farmer's Co-operative being split into three and yet we are seeing in Denmark MD Foods which I think handles 90% of milk and is farmer controlled actually merging with Arla in Sweden which handles about 85% of the milk and is farmer controlled. That is the sort of organisation we will have to compete against.

512. Mr Savage: I would just like to say to you I'm very conscious in your letter back here to Mr Wilson when you said you were involved in off-farm employment opportunities. Could you elaborate a wee bit more on that?

513. Mr Murray: Yes, certainly. We would relate to a reference to the Fivemiletown Bio-gas project and also the study we are doing into short rotation forestry because both of those will lead to employment off-farm in terms of running generation plants. Certainly to us the most exciting one would be the Bio-gas project where it is really an environmental waste management project which will hopefully result in reducing the phosphate pollution in the Erne and Blackwater systems. The product goes back to the farmers actually pasteurised so the weed seeds and cattle diseases are killed so there will be less use of (inaudible). Obviously there will be construction of a plant and there will be employment opportunities offered by that plant to people in the rural community.

514. Mr Savage: Thank you very much.

515. The Chairman: Gardiner?

516. Mr Kane: Yes Chair, I would first of all congratulate Patrick and Ian and their co-op and the constructive business you are carrying out to the Northern Ireland farming community. It is great indeed that you are doing that. Just two points, Patrick, taking into account the producer group influence has been to illustrate the carcass quality differences, although on many occasions it has little bargaining power over prices etc, do you also feel in periods of high availability of stock the producer groups are easily sidestepped?

517. Mr Casement: Yes, I think both of those points are probably correct, that we have, the producer groups have run into some problems if you like with the meat plants in that we have been, to a certain extent, used as a cheap and easy procurement facility for high quality lambs and we are not getting the rewards that we probably should get. We are not strong enough, I think, we do not have enough push to actually dictate or to bargain with them on equal terms if you like. They are the dominant partner inevitably in negotiations and they set the weekly price. We can only help to negotiate price differentials between different grades but the actual overall base price or price upon which the lambs, the different grades, are finally priced is set each week by the meat plants. We feel very strongly that they have not just a lot of power in this, but they probably appear to act together in this respect because there is a remarkable uniformity in prices set each week by the various meat plants. I think it is a problem that we are trying to address by the lamb marketing groups coming together in this, Ulster Lamb Group, as we call it, to try and look at ways in which we can increase our marketing power by working more closely together and producing a more united front from our point of view because that is the other point that is being done, they have selected out individual groups and maybe done deals with them and then presented that as a fait accompli to the other groups which means that they have to fall in line behind that. It is a difficult problem, how one addresses this negotiation. We have certain latitude but we don't have as much as we would like.

518. Mr Kane: Just one other question Chairman, if I may, it is said by numerous farmers that there is a cartel working between the abattoirs, processors and the retailers. Patrick, could I ask you what is your view on that as an organisation?

519. Mr Casement: I have no evidence of that. One may have suspicions at times, but it is very hard to get any evidence or idea of whether that is operating. But one would have to say that it is more than apparent to us, as it is to you, that the price differential between the lamb or the beef carcass leaving the farm and the price that is obtained for that amount of meat in the supermarket or the butcher is widening all the time to the detriment of the producer. It is a source of ongoing, increasing worry to all of us because we are seeing, indeed we are paying for meat we wish to eat ourselves, the same or more than we were several years ago and we are all obtaining less and less for it all the time. We are, meanwhile, going out of our way to add value to that product in terms of traceability, in terms of lack of harmful environmental inputs and so on through quality assurance schemes and all the rest. We are getting no reward for that added value that we are putting in, that added costs certainly and I think in theory added value we are contributing to it as individual farmers. This is something that I think while coming together in larger groupings of whatever form, co-operative, we should or hope to gain more power and control within the market, but it is very difficult at this stage to do that, I think. We have almost reached a point where it is very late in the day for that. I do not believe it is too late in many ways but I think it is much, much more difficult than if we had strong established large marketing co-ops and that would have made that job easier.

520. The Chairman: I want to move over to Mr Armstrong.

521. Mr Armstrong: Thank you Chairman, I am interested in your Bio-gas operation. I think that there is one way forward to cut down on pollution and to create a healthy country, getting rid of a lot of gasses and a lot of disease, and we blame slurries and we pollute our waterways and pollute in a lot of ways, I was just wondering what way do you see of reducing that? Then I look at your Aberdeen Angus cattle beef programme that you have. I hear people saying if farmers are paying too much for young stock to produce beef and then the farmers are receiving that money for their store cattle, say they are not even getting to keep their profit, I wonder how you are going on your Aberdeen Angus thing to get the farmers profit and also to get the consumer a good quality beef and the slurry and how are you going to achieve your objectives if you are not there with funding?

522. Mr Murray: Chairman, thanks Billy, that is quite a handful to deal with.

523. The Chairman: Be as brief as you can, there are two more.

524. Mr Murray: Chairman, on the Aberdeen Angus initiative, that was taken by some members of the Aberdeen Angus Society with our support and with the support of Crawford Henderson Meat Enterprises in Omagh and Foyle Meats to go for a quality product, to a specialist niche market. In doing so they have been able to negotiate premium prices for their stock provided they meet certain grade criteria so that reward is coming back to them.

525. Mr Armstrong: Can I stop you there? The farmer set out in the marketplace that the persons out in the market place buying store cattle and buying maybe those young stock, are giving too much for them, there is no profit there for the persons giving so much for them, that there is no profit in the return on the beef. Whenever they are sold to the abattoir, there is no profit for the beef farmer. Then a person says that the storeman is giving too much for them, so how do you compensate that?

526. Mr Murray: My understanding, and I have not been that closely involved with the Aberdeen Angus, there is a full traceability and these tend to be producer, we are fatteners, we are finishers, so they are not going into the market place to buy their stock, there is full computerised traceability of the breeding, feeding etc of those animals.

527. The Chairman: I call Mr Ford.

528. Mr Ford: Thank you Chairman. Looking at your list of new co-operatives you promoted in recent years, apart from the lamb groups they all seem to be what you might call niche markets. Is it too late when the crisis strikes to consider the co-operative option? Specifically on that I mean United Pig Producers, you seem to be fairly downbeat about what you have achieved including the fact there is apparently no funding from DANI and you have been spending money. Is it possible that that is simply going to fail to achieve anything for pig producers?

529. Mr Murray: It is a possibility, Chairman, it would be very disappointing if it was because we did, working with those people, put together a proposal which DARD accepted for funding on the Market Development Scheme which would produce £150,000 of grant over three years to operate that co-operative, but tragically we cannot operate the co-operative unless we can get a meat plant or bacon factory to run with us. That is the most unfortunate thing about it. Just a very brief aside in relation to pig meat, when we visited the Malton Bacon Company we were shown a pork loin, Chairman, with the fat removed and told that that retails in Tokyo at £70 a pound. In other words, one pound of that loin in Tokyo actually goes for more than a pig sells for in Northern Ireland.

530. The Chairman: Of course, the trouble is that Malton, having such an overseas influence via America, can do that.

531. Mr Casement: I think this brings us back to the point that was made earlier, we need to have recognition from the processors and so on further down the food chain to assist with the co-operative movement by recognising that this can lead to much higher quality and much better, more even supply and so on that they seem unwilling to realise that there are advantages in working with co-ops, not merely the disadvantage of having an organised line of production.

532. The Chairman: I think we all must take loins to Tokyo and charter a flight to get some finance for your organisation. PJ?

533. Mr Bradley: Thank you Chairman. We are all inclined maybe wrongly to talk about the farmer as "he" or "him" or to refer to him in the male sense. I want to ask can rural woman be co-ordinated by organisations such as yours for the betterment of the agricultural industry? I think that diversification being the in word, that woman have a bigger role to play in the economics of the farm and the farmhouse. Perhaps with co-ops and women organised that could be the saver for a lot of small farms.

534. Mr Murray: Thanks, PJ. I think, Chairman, I agree with the point that is being made and that we so often point out, the farm comes in two halves, a male half using a female half. Very often it is the female half who does the VAT and the books and who may well feed the young stock. I am certain there is a role. With our involvement with Family Farm Development which has brought the Union and NIAPA and ourselves and Rural Development Council and Department together their staff certainly worked more closely with the women of the farm and perhaps with the development by the Farmers' Union of a farmer market I could certainly see there being a role for the farmers' wives and the other ladies in the countryside to co-operate particularly again in the marketing of the produce they are taking forward into the market.

535. The Chairman: As PJ has got one of his colleagues, lady member as a lady Minister he has done very good, hasn't he?

536. Mr Bradley: The entire Committee here, every deputation came in, we did not see a woman in sight.

537. Mr Murray: Sorry Chairman, I must apologise, we were due to have to a third party here, Ms Sheelagh Blair, who is our Legal Secretary, but at the last minute she was unable to attend.

538. The Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 9 June 2000

Members Present:

Rev Dr Ian Paisley (Chairman)
Mr Savage (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Armstrong
Mr Douglas
Mr Kane
Mr McHugh

Witnesses:

Mr B O'Kane )
Mr I Thom )
Mr J McAuley ) Northern Ireland Poultry Federation
Mr D Thompson )

Northern Ireland Poultry Federation

539. The Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen. Welcome to you all. The way we are working is that you are going to give us an opening comment, which we would like to be restrained to about 10 to 12 minutes, and then some of us around the table will have some questions to put to you. If there is time the rest of our colleagues will be putting questions to you.

540. Mr O'Kane: Thank you, Chairman. The poultry industry is a significant part of the agricultural industry in Northern Ireland and it has developed and prospered considerably over this past 30/40 years. Even after our entry into the Common Market it continued to grow and prosper. Unfortunately, with the events of this past three years in particular, and especially within the past 18 months since the arrival of the Euro and when the UK decided not to enter into it, conditions have worsened and in fact compounded to such an extent that the industry is in serious trouble. It did not receive the attention publicly that the other sectors of agriculture have received this past period, nor do I believe recognition generally within the community as to the state of affairs. Agriculture is the largest area of employment in the Province and within that poultry is the largest single employment area, sustaining 7,000 full-time jobs and considerably more part-time and ancillary jobs.

541. We are very pleased to come along and put our position to the Committee. This was embraced within a letter which we sent to the Committee on 13th January, which I am sure you would all have had a copy of. The conditions, in fact, within the poultry industry are very similar to that within the pig industry, they are both intensive sectors of agriculture. Whilst the Common Agricultural Policy, we believe, was intended to create conditions whereby support could be given to different sectors of agriculture so that they would prosper, maintain employment in the community in agriculture, and support and retain livelihoods of farmers in all the areas, unfortunately the structure which was set up did not address nor did it adequately support either the pig or poultry industries. They have been left in a state of limbo.

542. We are all very well aware of the fracture which took place within the industry arising from the BSE problem which exploded in March 1996. We were compounded then by the currency problems which have come thereafter, creating conditions whereby both the egg and poultry sectors have suffered badly. It has impacted the community, our agriculture community in the Province, differently in that whereas in the other livestock sectors (those sectors other than poultry) producers were left to carry the load of whatever the marketplace threw up. The contractual arrangements upon which the poultry industry, particularly the poultry meat industry, was structured, had producers contracted with processors who were also marketing; giving security to producers that they were protected from the vagaries of the marketplace; that it was a partnership basis which gave them all the support which can come from a larger organisation; gave them secured returns relative to performance levels with the removal of the risks or particularly the troughs which inevitably seem to come in food industries. It created conditions whereby large scale industries developed from the 1960s right through to now in a province when theoretically we were not an area which was best and naturally suited for such development. Producers got the benefits of being parts of large scale operations. Products were produced and marketed, and marketed in a manner in which Northern Ireland has by its own efforts come to the top of the industry in both quality of product, health of product, and presentation and marketing of product.

543. It is the only section, I believe, where this support has been used to a large extent. It may well be developing slightly some of the other livestock sections, which we would imagine you as a Committee would certainly wish to consider. Whilst we wouldn't want to put ourselves forward as being experts or advising other sections how to go, we are quite willing to put to the Committee what we believe has been the strength of this system. It has worked well. As I say, the employment is as I have outlined but we are at serious risk of maintaining that. We have had to recognise the changed circumstances which have come about, and whilst our industry developed on the basis of locally produced product being processed and marketed both within the British Isles and to a certain extent beyond the British Isles, we cannot sustain our position under the present economic circumstances, and those particularly relating to currency. It can well have been unfortunate but it is reality. We have suffered so badly over this past two to three years, and especially this past 18 months. Admittedly there is some currency movement at the moment. We can only hope that that change and movement which is taking place will continue but the uncertainty is still there, and if we do not get considerable movement and weakening of sterling vis-a-vis Euro our future is bleak. Up to the moment now we admit, and we admit openly, that those in the industry which are in the further processing end of the industry, which is the growth end of the industry, are well now exclusively using product imported from elsewhere, both from within the remainder of the EU and particularly outside the EU. Whilst that is sustaining employment within the Province it is not really doing anything of great benefit to the producers themselves or to the ancillary industries which service the industry. We have some suggestions which we would put to the Committee. How feasible they are, how practicable they are within the structure of the EU system we will have to leave in your hands to determine. We are very willing and very keen to co-operate and help in every way possible with the Committee.

544. The Chairman: Would you like to mention these, Mr. O'Kane?

545. Mr O'Kane: Yes. On the basis of the bullet points and questions you have put to us in your letter we are prepared to put the structure of our industry to you for your consideration. Can it be extended in any respect to other sections which might be of value for the future of the relationships between production and processing marketing within Northern Ireland? I should say that even from the earliest days of the creation of the industry, the contractual arrangements which were set up were set up on the basis of co-ordinating the different aspects of the industry to suit the market conditions. It has always been market led - for volumes, quality, the different aspects of different products to fit different sections of markets. It has never been, as most of our other agricultural sections are, that it was production orientated. Where product was produced it was always cleared off the marketplace. Particularly in the early days of the EEC those were mainly by intervention systems which was an open-ended pit, for want of a better word, through which all production which was surplus could be disposed. We had to balance our business, so therefore the industry itself had to control the volume and the standards of the product coming forward. I recognise that in some niche areas within our industry this is starting to develop in other sections, but that is up to them to consider how it works and particularly how committed other sections of processing and marketing are prepared to become with producers. We are aware that there are social aspects to the community here in the Province as well as the economic ones. Our big problem of late has been that the risks which are run are that if a collapse takes place, the proportionate impact can be considerably larger than it may be in some of the other sections of agriculture and the rundown may be much more sudden. As I say, our financial positions must improve if the industry is going to remain as it is. We were capable of producing the healthiest product, quality which will compare within anywhere else in the world, a range of product which surpasses most of the rest of the world. Our problem has been that when we come to the marketplace we are just not competitive. It is a question of arithmetic. Our physical performances are as good as any in the world. In fact as we can outline, we do outperform the American market, which is the home of all chicken production. There are areas in which, as well as the organisation internally, there are obviously areas in which the government can impact the health of the industry.

546. The Chairman: Yes, I would be interested in that. We are running to a tight schedule, but you have given us a good introduction and it has been very helpful. We would like to know what propositions you have put to the government in order to deal with this matter as you see it. We have the money thing, there may be some slight changes but I would not hold out too much about a radical change in the monetary relationship. There may be some lessening of the strength of the pound, but I can't see that being so radical that it would turn the tide. I may be completely wrong but that is what I get from Europe when I am there, and I will be there at the beginning of the week again. There does not seem to be any move from the British government, because I think the British government would be afraid that the other previous governments interfered with the problem and got themselves into more trouble. So I think there would be big political questions there. Would be afraid that the pound would remain strong, maybe not as strong, but still we have a battle there. It is almost beyond us, that particular battle. You are really saying to us, Mr. O'Kane, it is when you have the job done you have an absolutely good commodity to sell. It is nothing to do with competitive standards, it is to do with the price of the world market which prices you out. Are there any other suggestions that could be put to the government on that.

547. Mr O'Kane: Yes, could I just make one further statement. Many of us in the industry, having experienced life within the EU with the UK standing out from the Euro, there is no way that we could survive on the UK going into the Euro area at today's rates, but for long term prosperity within the industry a lot of us would contend we must be part of the Euro. By saying that, it is a currency matter, a trade matter. We don't want it confused with harmonisation or otherwise of labour laws, of fiscal policies, of federalisation, but we contend that there is a relationship between trading and currency which should stand alone. If British industry wants to prosper, we need to change. Our reading of the situation is identical practically to your own insofar as value currency and probable movements in currency is concerned.

548. The Chairman: Well, if you could address that; what would you say to the government outside that?

549. Mr O'Kane: There are areas, and we make no apology for saying that we would wish to see conditions which are relevant to Northern Ireland as a region within the UK being applied. We think we have a valid and justifiable case for this. It has been a problem in the past and it has been a problem with areas within agriculture in addition to that with poultry. We would like to see our adverse feed cost disadvantage being addressed. We are hoping that there may be a relaxation at government level on this aspect of nationwide policy being applied. We would wish to have our adverse feed cost addressed. We are hoping that a precedent may be set very shortly on the low incidence BSE level. We would anticipate that there may well be situations where conditions within the Republic of Ireland might well be presented and promoted within Europe which don't necessarily coincide with those which would be applicable in the remainder of the UK, but in the situations where we in Northern Ireland would benefit from such that hopefully through your different channels we would not be left aside and that sufficient sympathy could be applied to our situation in Northern Ireland, to be at least at no disadvantage against the Republic, and that every benefit could be had to offset this continuous disadvantage that we have could be addressed. Would you like me to say anything further on the meat side?

550. The Chairman: Maybe you would come in on these questions because my friends here would like to put some questions to you. First of all, Mr. Savage.

551. Mr Savage: Thank you very much for your presentation, gentlemen. I am very conscious of the problems facing you because one of the biggest broiler producers in Northern Ireland is my next-door neighbour. I am very conscious of the concerns that he has. There are two or three things that you highlighted. I read with interest your written presentation very closely. I can see the problems that you have in your industry are very much the same as what the problems are within the pig industry, with both of them running hand in hand together. I would just like to ask you something nearly related to it, because the stretch of water between here and GB means that there is a differential of about £15 to £20 a ton in difference in feed price. I think that is something that we are going to have to take on board very seriously. Is there a compensation mechanism for currency that is permitted within the EU regulations which you would like to see government avail of; and why do you consider government is unwilling to assist the poultry industry at this time. Do you think they don't want to do it, or do you see any obstacles that they have put in your way?

552. Mr O'Kane: Yes, on the compensation there are mechanisms within the CAP to compensate other livestock producers. It does not apply to poultry. In the earlier days right through from, I think, 1972 (if that wasn't the year we entered, it was about that time) there was a mechanism of monetary compensatory payments or amounts which adjusted the movements in currency values insofar as market prices were concerned. That worked very well, maybe not perfectly but it worked very well, but we prospered through those years in trading between the nation states within Europe and companies trading out. We worked that very well. I do not know the mechanisms within the community as why that was dismantled, but certainly when the single market came in and the Customs systems were dismantled they did not have the mechanism to continue that system. The agri-monetary compensatory payments which I understand were put in position to replace the mechanism which addressed currency movements in the previous structure, and that covered all agricultural products, when it came in it was put in on the basis of the structure of support within CAP. It did not embrace either pigs or poultry. We do not get the brown envelopes coming through the letter box every number of weeks to make up part of the shortfall. We are there purely trading without support, and it has just proven to be impossible because of the extent of the currency movements. We would very much like to develop somewhere along the lines which you are outlining in principle, but how Dr Paisley and his colleagues back in Brussels can get that done.

553. The Chairman: It is very difficult because we are coming now to the heart of what happened to our pig industry. It is the same thing. It would be a dreadful thing if we had a repeat of that in the poultry industry, and that is what really worries me about it. They washed their hands really of the pig industry until the question that we were putting to our Department was do you want to keep a pig industry; now, do you want a keep a poultry industry? I would have thought if we could get something done with this feed cost, which could be done more or less immediately, it will not save the situation but it could ease it. We need to go and perhaps at the meeting today with the Minister put it in her lap. She has a lot in her lap but that would be something that would be very important.

554. Mr Savage: I think something, Mr Chairman, whatever is going on in Spain and Portugal, there is no reason why it cannot work here. It may work in a different way but at least if there are means to do it there are ways to do it. I think that this is something that has to be pursued.

555. Mr O'Kane: Dr. Paisley, if I could come in on the background of that, my understanding is if we had made representations at the time of our entry into the EEC as it was, we had a good case which in all probability would have been accepted which has worked for Spain and Portugal, and in a somewhat similar manner has worked for the Scandinavian countries when they came in. But our problem was we were all newcomers to the EEC, we did not know the ropes to pull and we missed that opportunity. I believe that the Community has not been prepared to look back and grant us as a region something that they have granted to Spain and Portugal and to a certain extent in a slightly different manner to the Scandinavian countries.

556. The Chairman: Would you say that Heath was so keen to get us in that the negotiations - because we had very fierce debates in the House on that, why we did not have all the safeguards, and they would not even think of them. Wilson had a row over the payments, you remember, and then Mrs Thatcher succeeded in getting what he did not get. Now they want to go back on that, and that is where the battle is at the moment. Blair thinks that if he asks anything more that they are going to take it out on him on that. It is a very difficult one. This thing here is something that they could do, and I think with the sad happenings to our pig industry it strengthens our argument.

557. Mr O'Kane: Doctor Paisley, can I say to you just for the information of your Committee, and let there been no doubt, if it was not for the fact that the groups within the industry have supported the industry through taking losses, and serious losses which we have outlined volume wise, the poultry industry in Northern Ireland today would be in the identical same position as the pig industry is today. It is just a matter of how long is the industry prepared or capable of sustaining that. I do not apologise for saying that.

558. The Chairman: Well thank you very much. This has been a very interesting exchange and very helpful. We look forward to receiving your application to the Minister. We certainly would be concerned that there is not money coming to you from the Government and certainly we will be with you on that in trying to get that rectified. Thank you very much. Billy?

559. Mr Armstrong: Right. Thank you. In your opinion, do the supermarket giants support you in your initiative and in the products that you produce? Really what I am saying is that the product a few years back was of a good high quality, it seems to be that supermarkets now require a product of a different make up and it takes away the efficiency of the farmer that produces the product.

560. Mr O'Kane: Well I just might not present it as you have presented it. The position is number one, the most obvious factor, in Northern Ireland the main supermarkets, all of the major supermarkets, not one of them has a Head Office in Northern Ireland. When we want to go to talk to one of our big customers with anything relating to our business we either go to the Mainland or to Dublin. If you take them all, you have Tescos, Sainsburys, Marks & Spencer, Safeway, Supervalu, Dunnes, that might be them all, it might not, they all have their office of influence outside the province which does not help our case, whereas previously when we were going along to Castlereagh Road or wherever else we had a stronger case. On top of that, that has coincided with erosion of profits since they have arrived. There may be further problems down the road. We now have two discounters Aldi and Lidl coming in, two organisations who work for considerably lesser margins than the main supermarkets and that again will be a depressant impact on prices. We recognise that the supermarkets now are giving more support to local suppliers, I wouldn't like to misguide the Committee, those who are working with the supermarkets are getting very substantial volume business, very important business, business without which we could not survive. The problem has been, number one, maybe very slightly different from what you were presenting, they have been pushing as champions of the consumer for higher quality products on the basis that the consumer has every right to expect the very best quality and demand such quality. They have imposed, with our support, those conditions and we are producing, but they are all at added costs. The trouble has been we have not been successful on passing those added costs and getting recompense for that. In addition to that, I certainly would not want this said too loudly.

561. The Chairman: We could cut this off, couldn't we?

562. Mr O'Kane: Well anyway -

563. The Chairman: Just be careful.

564.> Mr O'Kane: Okay, there is still an amount of product coming and this has been well documented, there is still a lot of product coming in from areas other than the UK, products not produced under the same conditions or to the same standards at much lesser cost which have an adverse impact on the average prices in the market place. So therefore as well as having added costs in production side we are pressurised by products still coming in to the retail and manufacturing market at lesser cost than we can produce.

565. The Chairman: EU boundary, once it gets in, will come across the main boundary, that it is a very dangerous thing.

566. Mr Armstrong: How much better is the product that the consumer gets now than the product prior to say five years ago since the new regulations came in, that birds had to be in looser housing and the more environmental friendly bird, how better is that bird than she was getting prior?

567. Mr O'Kane: I would state that the product has never been better than it is today. All the conditions which have been imposed mainly by supermarkets have all been to the benefit of improved quality which the consumer has every right to expect and demand. We are not against that. The only thing is we contend that we are placed at a disadvantage by not having level ground to compete with our competitors.

568. Mr McHugh: Thanks, Mr. Chairman, I am certainly glad to hear the whole side of it in relation to poultry. It is not one field I was particularly sure of, but there are mirror images of yourselves with the pig industry, indeed with the whole industry if you take it at the producer level and that is where our concern would be from. You know, a lot of investment has went in at farm level in recent years by farmers, into white meat production with the notion that it was going to be the salvation versus the red meat side, a lot of personal money has went into it in farms in terms of turkey houses and they are very expensive. Now do you see that working out in the years to come in terms of future and where do you see farmers, what should they be doing at the minute, should they still be continuing to invest in that side of it? You know, this is part of the push for diversification. I would say that the Department here as compared to the South did not actually do as much to help farmers move into that side of things a number of years ago when it might have been more of an advantage than now?

569. Mr O'Kane: My reply there, Chairman, is up to the moment I do not know of any producers who have of recent times - now I must qualify, of recent times - who have gone into expansion with turkeys or chickens without the support of and encouragement of a group developer, nor do I know of any particular producers who have got into financial difficulties arising from that because they have been protected, they have been getting income right through all this crisis period recently. The risk is if the structure itself does not hold up, the risk to them is in the future, they have not taken any of the hardship up to now, it is down the road that if things don't work out correctly.

570. The Chairman: Storm clouds are ahead.

571. Mr O'Kane: Yes.

572. The Chairman: Still to burst, I can see that.

573. Mr McHugh: In relation to the playing field, Mr Chairman, you mentioned level playing field, the supermarkets, I would also contend, the supermarkets have imposed conditions as has the beef industry, which all ended up being paid for by the producer rather than them taking part of that themselves and that that creates a major disadvantage for yourselves. I do not know what you can do about that, but in terms of organising yourselves I think you are a minority industry as far as agriculture is concerned. Have you any difficulty in trying to have a better future in maybe trying to get a bit more strength at your own farm gate level?

574. Mr O'Kane: Not at farm gate level, there is an area in which progress could be made, probably could be made. If we compare ourselves to the Republic, the supermarkets in the Republic are the same supermarkets as we have here and they are mainly British supermarkets, a lot of the big supermarkets in the South. In the North here we come in under the umbrella of their nationwide marketing as part of all UK so we are having our product sold in the retail supermarkets here in Northern Ireland the same prices as they are throughout the UK whereas we are in a higher cost production region than the other UK areas because of the feed differential. In the South that is somewhat different in that it is a different State, it is a different currency, they can break away from that nationwide pricing basis they can apply prices which correspond and are appropriate to the conditions in the Republic. We are putting our products into Northern Ireland stores at the same prices as we put them into the GB stores and they are being retailed at the same level, but we have that cost disadvantage whereas the supermarkets who bring mainland product in here have to pay the additional sea freight across on them. We do not get any recompense our seafreight at all. If they were prepared to sell their products at what I would call a Northern Irish price rather than the GB price, that would be of advantage but there are sensitive problems with that especially when we are supplying the same product to both our Northern Ireland stores and our GB stores.

575. The Chairman: I can understand that. One last question, Gardiner, time is up.

576. Mr Kane: Thanks, Chairman. Mr O'Kane, you say imports especially from non-European sources do not accord cost through animal welfare, traceability and environmental protection legislation as faced by our producer. What steps are you taking to ensure consumers are aware of these factors when making a choice as to which product to buy? Also, Mr. O'Kane, I take it that your organisation is well down financially, can you give this Committee a general figure of financial loss to your organisation from the BSE crisis commenced being up until to date?

577. Mr O'Kane: On the last part no I cannot from the BSE crisis, but we did give you a figure which we will stand over totally for this past year. Admittedly when you see the extent of that that was our worst year and by far no other year compares to that. Introspectively BSE was one of the worst things that ever happened to our industry because the euphoria that set into the white meat industries in 1996/97 just encouraged unreasonable expansion and that was one of the main causes to the surplus product which has come on to the markets in 1997, 1998 and 1999 and we have been paying severely for that. Sorry, what was your first point again, the environmental?

578. Mr Kane: Yes, that is correct.

579. Mr O'Kane: This is a big problem with us. I do not know how we are going to get round it. If the British market had been prepared to purchase product produced to their welfare demands only, we would have a much better chance of competing. You have seen this in particular with the pig industry and there is a lot of imported product coming in which does not meet those standards. We have the feeding regulations, welfare regulations and density levels all to our disadvantage. If we were competing on level ground we would have nothing in that area to complain about. We still have the currency, but they have serious advantages.

580. The Chairman: We have found this very helpful. And I think it was good for you to be with us and point out the seriousness of coming. Does any one of your colleagues want to add anything?

581. Mr Thom: I would just like to say as far as the egg production, that all that Mr O'Kane has said really refers to egg production as well. There is a contracted arrangement, the companies financed the whole thing and prices over this last 3 or 4 years have been atrocious, down below the cost of production. So all that has been said really does refer as well to egg production.

582. The Chairman: Right.

583. Mr McAuley: Chairman, if I may I add just perhaps a personal view, but to try to address some of the problems and in the interests of brevity just aiming at one particular thing, I believe that the feed cost is one major issue and you have discussed that one. It is also a major hurdle and has been for a long time. We must be realistic in how we may or may not get over that hurdle. There are other elements in the costs that are directly affecting production in Northern Ireland, a number of them and I do not need to go over them, but for instance our electricity costs and our diesel costs and haulage costs and so it goes on. I would have suggested that we should have a concern that the task force set up by the Minister which should be influential and I hope will bring some results in the medium to long term, may not address the short term. I would have hoped that the Minister could look for a facilitator to be appointed to look at the short term and that the short term issues are perhaps the issues that we can sit down and try to help with. But the issues such as the introduction of the climate change levy which will be introduced, should that be introduced into Northern Ireland where we already are suffering high electricity costs, is there any possibility that we can negotiate a separate deal on an issue like that? There will be other issues, the haulage issue in Northern Ireland, should we go forward with a special case to allow the hauliers in Northern Ireland to use diesel at the same price as our competitors in the south of Ireland? There are a number of issues and there will be many more, I am sure, that the industry could bring to the table and discuss. If the Government could bring together a very small group of people and perhaps just one facilitator in Government circles who would be there to adopt a "can do" attitude rather than a "can't do". One example I would give you historically in recent times that perhaps we could have had a different outcome had we had that type of opening within Government would have been the debt crisis on the border in the pig sector that I know has been discussed many times. The South adopted the "can do" policy and managed to achieve a £1 million assistance package. We were faced with the "can't do" attitude coming from the Minister. If the Minister had grasped the opportunities there was at least the possibility that working together with your colleagues in Europe that that single point could have been addressed North and South. We believe that it was killed off before it had a chance to actually be pushed forward. Therefore, it is a simple point perhaps but it would support anything that our Chairman here has stated today, and anything that we could do as a group to bring forward any innovative thinking on our side that might be applied elsewhere in the industry, if we had a vehicle, somebody who had that position to try to achieve something, we will not hold it against them if they don't, but if they have an opportunity and they are focused to try to achieve something in the short term whilst hopefully the Task Force addresses the long term, I would make that point, Chairman.

584. The Chairman: That is a very good point because we will be meeting the Minister this afternoon on that very issue. We will put that to her, short term is the thing. Also I think this "can't do" I mean, you go to the departments in Westminster and they all can do nothing. We have a battle royal with them and I said: Well you cannot do it until you make the application. With regard to Objective 1 areas now, we know the outcome was they said they couldn't do it, we lost it. The South said, with an Everest in front of them, we can do it and they have it partly. Our fellows gave up, they gave up when they were out there, they all gave up and so did the two Ministers from here. I was in a meeting, we are not going to try for Objective 1. Well, the three MEP's were all agreed that you do not give back, you try and you keep at it, keep at it, that is the way you do it in Europe, they did not do that. So I would agree with you fully, a facilitator who was a do maker would be the person. I do not know, of course, anything about this Steering Committee. We have not been taken into confidence by the Minister at all as some of us might think that they thought when this body was formed they better have something to confront us with. I may be wrong on that, but I have my suspicions that might be true. It does not matter, we have to gain something, it does not matter who gains it. It is something that is going to be for the better for the farmer and the better for everybody concerned. We have got to dedicate ourselves to that. I would like to thank you on behalf of my colleagues for your contributions. Thank you for being with us. If you want to enlarge on anything you have said to us today by letter we will be glad to have it.

585. Mr O'Kane: Thank you very much.

586. The Chairman: The meeting will now be closed to the public but the members of the Committee need to stay for a minute or two.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Friday 9 June 2000

Members Present:

Rev Dr Ian Paisley (Chairman)
Mr Savage (Deputy Chairman
Mr Armstrong
Mr Bradley
Mr Dallat
Mr Douglas
Mr Ford
Mr Kane
Mr McHugh

Witnesses:

Mr M Hilliard, (Malton Bacon Factory Ltd)

Malton Bacon Factory Ltd

587. The Chairman: Well, I declare this Agriculture Committee meeting of the Northern Ireland Assembly duly opened to continue the business that we commenced this morning. Welcome, Mr Hilliard. Could I say to you that the format we have been taking is a simple one, you make to us an opening presentation for ten minutes or so. We do not want to go longer because we have 40 minutes for each interview and then myself and my colleagues would like to ask questions. We will not have time for everybody, possibly we may have, but we have appointed three of our company to lead off in this. If we have more time, as we hope we will have because if we make it questions and not semi-speeches and you give us answers and not semi-speeches, we will go through a bit more. It is better for both sides to have that. So, if you would like to commence your presentation now.

588. Mr Hilliard: Okay, good afternoon, if I can just make the first point that I was actually contacted last Friday with a view to attending here today and I have actually been away on holiday, but I felt therefore it is still important for me to come and make myself available so perhaps a shorter speech to start off with and perhaps more questions later on.

589. The Chairman: We are sorry about that, but we felt we needed to have you here.

590. Mr Hilliard: It is no problem.

591. The Chairman: Thanks for facilitating us. We would remind you that we would have powers to draw you in, but we would not think of using that on a nice man like you.

592. Mr Hilliard: If I can introduce myself and my business. I am Chief Executive of Malton Foods which is the pig meet processing subsidiary of Unigate PLC. We operate across ten sites employing 7,000 people. One of those sites is based at Cookstown which slaughters pigs and employs 360 people. The total size of the business, £600 million turnover of which over £500 million goes to the major UK retailers. The remaining trading sales are made of manufacturing meats and offals generated through the slaughtering and boning operations, about half of which we export around the world to America, Europe and the Far East. That is really presenting the business that I look after. A few words about the state of the UK pig industry: I feel it is important to focus on what were the causes of the losses that have been borne by pig production and pig processing over the last 2 years. It effectively started on the back of over-production, the oversupply of pigs. I think one could identify that that arose from profitable years of pig production in the mid-'90s to late -'90s particularly influenced by the outbreak of BSE. We had demand driven price inflation for raw material on the back of the consumer switching out of beef and switching into other proteins. Certainly the pig industry benefited from that and there was extra demand which pushed the price up and gave producers better returns. That was followed quite shortly afterwards in 1997 by disease problems around the world - outbreaks of Foot & Mouth in the Far East in Taiwan, a major exporter to Japan; and perhaps more recently Swine Fever in Holland. That effectively created a period of time where we had supply driven inflation again. On the world markets suppliers disappeared, an entire herd was destroyed by the Army in Taiwan, to put it into perspective, and that obviously buoyed the prices around. Against just as farmers were putting more product down, difficulties elsewhere within the industry, an opportunity particularly in the UK to enter pig production with local capital investment compared with previously because of outdoor pig production where people could rent land and put pigs out there, we saw more pigs coming through, not just in the UK but across the whole of Europe. We ought not to kid ourselves that it was other EU countries that brought this upon us, we saw the same herd expansion at home. All these extra pigs came on to the market when we started to experience problems in the export markets, Russia effectively closed down. We have to remember that a third of all the exports outside of the EU went to Russia. We saw a slowly strengthening pound. The expanded herds, just to put it into perspective, we would typically expect the EU herd to be 285,000 pigs per week - it rose to 325,000. Denmark, typically averaging 360,000 pigs per week rose to 425,000. When we started to really experience problems that were particular to the UK, we had the welfare legislation that banned domestic production systems incorporating stalls and tethers. The UK industry invested over £200 million of their own money, farmers, to take those systems out to meet the unique UK legislation. So it certainly caused them a problem that when the losses came along their financial status had already been undermined by having to make that investment. It was also on the back of reports that a lot of farmers might not make the investment to go out of business that when farmers did make that investment they actually took the opportunity to increase their herd size. It became a bit of a vicious circle that people invested into the new system, not as many people did go out of business on the back of good times therefore that added to the increased number of pigs coming through to the UK. The second and major problem that we face today within the industry is the exclusion of meet and bone meal from our ability to further process that into animal feed. If we put into context the losses that the British pig farmer has suffered, on average I would calculate that a farmer has lost over £10, just over £10 on every pig that he has sold for the last 2 years. The cost of the BSE taxes, as we referred to it, with no connection between BSE and pigs we have the banning of porcine meet and bone meal from further use in animal feed. That is calculated to cost the industry £5.25 per animal. So to put it into context, more than half of the losses that the British pig farmer has sustained have been down to just one element and that unfair banning of the inclusion of meet and bone meal within feed. Then we have seen up until recently, the Pound gaining strength against the week Euro and that has made it doubly difficult for processors and producers making it very difficult to export. But in a country where we are only 70% self-sufficient and with plentiful supplies of European pork it has only served to cheapen imports. The impact of that has been today that we see the UK herd falling away quite critically very far, very quickly and we are currently down to below 240,000 pigs a week being slaughtered. That is 15% down on last year's weekly average. If we look at what is happening on the Continent we see the Dutch herd down only 2% and absolutely no change in the Danish herd, if anything it is going to rise. The situation we find ourselves in as an industry now is that farmers are returning back to profitability as the supply of UK pigs falls away. The losses now are shifting on to the processing industry once again. We have a situation now where abattoirs are fighting for the pigs. Most abattoirs are now down to the equivalent of 4 day working and a British pig today commands at least 20% premium over its Dutch and Danish equivalent.

593. The Chairman: Thank you very much. We, of course in Northern Ireland, are interested in the future of your firm in Northern Ireland because more or less now apart from smaller firms you are in the monopoly situation. What we have asked you to tell us, what is your idea of the future of the pig industry in Northern Ireland as concerns your own firm and what is the likelihood of your firm leaving Northern Ireland - you will excuse me, I must put these questions - your firm leaving Northern Ireland. Those are the things because as you have said we really are in a different ball game now. The news that you are giving us from the Continent is not helpful news nor the news in the global sphere is not helpful. Could you help us on those two issues? We have to do a report for our Assembly and the report is interested in getting us out of the mess that we are in, but it is also looking for recommendations. There is no use us being strong on diagnosis, which we all are, and not strong on proposals and prescriptions. So we need some prescription to say this is the way we should go in the future. Could you help us on that?

594. Mr Hilliard: I think the one line, coming to the particular point secondly on our position because I think it is fundamental on the profitability, we have got to address the profitability essentially of the industry and what millstones we carry that make us uncompetitive against the Dutch and the Danes. Malton's history, coming back to Malton, is that as a company we are primarily set up to supply added value pork, bacon and ham products to the major UK retailers and some sales in Europe. Consistently up until 2 years ago for the preceding 15 years, we have demonstrated that the efficiency of British pig farmers combined with our efficiency as a processor meant that we could source domestic pigs, slaughter them and that material enter our further processing chain cost-effectively against imported material. Now, I almost feel as if we have got one hand tied behind our back with meat and bone meal, we have got one hand tied behind our back in terms of currency rates and not only do we have both hands tied behind our backs, we are almost in a strait jacket, we have just got everything going against us as an industry. I believe as an industry we can compete with Europe as currency is starting to come back in our favour, but fundamentally the main change that has got to be effected to put us on a level playing field is we have got to see either compensation for the £5.25 BSE impact on the pig industry or we have got to see that restriction lifted so that we can be adding value back into that fifth quarter, as we would refer it to, because without that one has to be concerned about the size of the cake, if I can put it like that, because all we are seeing at the moment is the unprofitability that has been experienced by the producer for a period of time now switching to the processor. What we have got to do is create a status quo where the cake is large enough for both facets of the industry, the producer and processor, to have enough money and make that cake large enough to divide between the two parties. If there is one thing we could change on a wish list it would be addressing the impact of this meat and bone meal exclusion. I believe that without that millstone around our neck then effectively we will still continue to have a British pig industry without doubt.

595. The Chairman: Now, you are talking about the British pig industry, we want to talk about the Northern Ireland pig industry because what farmers are saying to us, Mr Hilliard, is very simple, they produce a high class commodity which your firm has been buying for years, we know that, but they do not get an equal price here for that pig as their colleagues across the water get for that pig, that is the big thing that they say. Now, I do not want now to go into the past, the water is under the bridge and there are many things that could be said, we are trying to get something to save our pig industry. Now our pig industry cannot be saved except we have a levelling of the playing field, that is how we feel. So we would like you to give us your comments on that, why is it that the farmer, the pig farmer in Northern Ireland, produces an equally good pig - he will say of course it is even better and I, being the representative for Ballymoney, would say the Ballymoney pig is a special pig, but the situation is this, and it is very important, he does not get the same value as a man producing a similar pig and maybe in his opinion maybe if Malton were going to be absolutely honest we would have to say in some ways: You are right, your pig is better, but he does not get the price. Now the other matters, the strength of the Pound, is something beyond us and having sat for 20 years in Europe I cannot see the British Government now having a push in their economy prepared to do what Wilson did or Callaghan did and devalue the Pound, that is not going to come. If the slight change that has taken place goes on perhaps fairly far away, not near hand, there may be some equalisation on this matter, but that is not going to come. The other one that you are mentioning which you say ties your hand is the meal. That is getting more and more difficult with what is happening now, a campaign in Europe, which is going to, I think, swing the green lobby against that completely.

596. Mr Hilliard: A chance to answers those points you have made?

597. The Chairman: Yes.

598. Mr Hilliard: First of all, I would sit here and say that net net a producer over here returns a similar price as a producer returns in England.

599. The Chairman: I think the figures, Max, I think you need to look at those figures again. Of course, I haven't the figures before me, but I think that I could produce figures that would show that they are at a disadvantage.

600. Mr Hilliard: I think, with respect, at a top line figure you would identify that there is about a 5p premium that we have in England compared with here. I think what you then have to do is compare apples with apples. First of all, the contract that we pay, we measure pigs on millimetres of back fat, so we are grading the carcass in terms of quality. The top line price that is referred to, what we pay in the UK, actually equates to a tighter grading than the grading of pig that we purchase here. The second point would be here there are contributions made to the transport from farm to slaughter house, that is not made in the UK. There are then deductions that are made in the factories for grading animals and antemortem inspection. Those deductions are greater than the deductions that we make at the Cookstown factory. So I could certainly put in writing to you following this meeting how the 5p is made up so that I am able to say to you net net it is similar.

601. The Chairman: Well I am afraid around this table we would not agree with you. I would like to see those figures, they would be useful for us.

602. Mr Hilliard: I can understand how the misunderstanding arises because we are talking about a top price in England and top price in Northern Ireland. When we bring it down net net, because effectively that is the way we have got to look at it, if historically transport costs have been contributed to here and historically there have been higher deductions in English plants, you have still got to bring it to net net. Effectively there is no difference.

603. The Chairman: Well, I do not think that would convince farmers here but never the less we would like to see your figures, it would be helpful to us.

604. Mr Hilliard: Yes.

605. The Chairman: The other one, just on the Pound, would you not agree that it is hardly likely that we are going to see a movement on that?

606. Mr Hilliard: I totally agree, but I think with the efficiency of producers and the efficiency certainly of our business then I believe that we can hold our own, even if currency is going against us. What we cannot do is fight that battle and also have the meat and bone meal. We have to see the £5.50 which equates to half the losses that producers have sustained over 2 years, that is the playing field that we have got to have levelled off. If that is not levelled and we still have a hardship with the Pound then one has to worry how low the UK figures are going to go.

607. The Chairman: Right, thank you very much. Mr Gardiner Kane?

608. Mr Kane: Yes Chairman. Mr Hilliard, what outlets are available to pig farmers who do not have access to the local bacon factories? Does Malton intend to re-establish the premises at Agivey, Ballymoney for the future of the Northern Ireland pig industry and agriculture in general? You appear to have written off the pig industry, sir, do you see a viable future for pig farming in Northern Ireland? If so, how can this be secured?

609. Mr Hilliard: Well I do not know what evidence there is to say we have written off. We have invested in our processing facilities and having a viable pig farming supply base is essential, fundamental to the structure of our business. I would make the point that we have only just finished an investment, albeit for only half a million pounds to actually increase the slaughtering capacity at Cookstown, to make sure that we are actually able to take more pigs into the plant. So for a factory that was slaughtering around 12,000 pigs a week on average when we took it over less than two years ago we have increased the running capacity to 18,000 pigs a week plus, we are steadily increasing the kill. We are actually making investments in the Cookstown plant to be actually able to handle more pigs and make the plant more efficient. The prices that we pay, I still maintain, are consistent with the prices that we are paying in England. They are very much subject to the supply and demand and the competition threat of imported material. I think if we can almost forget looking in the past and actually look at prices today, prices today are at break even for most producers and with a forecast from myself because of the tightening supply basis then we are actually going to see prices continue to move up over the next weeks. That is clearly going to be a welcome relief to producers who have sustained substantial losses. But the issue will be, and I predict that more people will start to increase their herds as profitability returns, the status quo in terms of a viable industry can only be achieved if we sort out the meat and bone meal cost to the industry.

610. The Chairman: Those pigs that you are slaughtering in Cookstown, how many of them are from the Irish Republic?

611. Mr Hilliard: Answering the question quite openly, three weeks ago we would have found ourselves slaughtering about 14,000 from the North and 2,000 or 3,000 from the other side of the border. What we actually have seen is a drop-off in the availability of Northern Irish producers. Whether that is producers going out of business or whether it is taking advantage of a great demand from down South I do not know, but what is interesting now is that we are seeing a few more pigs re-appearing from North of the border because of the way Sterling has moved against the Punt. So it is quite difficult, pigs were travelling South up until quite recently with the exchange rates and I expect more pigs to stay in the North and that will increase the percentage of Northern Irish pigs we are putting through our Cookstown plant.

612. Mr Kane: Just to add on to that, Chair, if I may, my understanding from pig farmers is that there was one week, Mr Hilliard, that you did not have an in-take at all from Northern Ireland, that it was from Southern Ireland that the pigs came in on that particular week. Also you have not answered my question, sir, in relation to Ballymoney. Thank you.

613. Mr Hilliard: To answer the first part of that question, that is absolutely incorrect and utter rubbish, total misinformation.

614. Mr Kane: There may be an opportunity for me at a later date to supply you that information.

615. Mr Hilliard: I can tell you that information is totally wrong, absolutely utter rubbish.

616. The Chairman: Right. Could you answer the other question about the future of Ballymoney?

617. Mr Hilliard: With regards to Ballymoney, first of all, any investment decisions that we make have got to be premised on where we arrive at in terms of believing that there is a viable Northern Irish pig industry going forward and what numbers there are going to be. It is unlikely in the short term that we will be recreating a green field site, whether that is at Ballymoney or anywhere else. We have sat down and had discussions with the IDB, it's important to test the water. On the face of it somebody might say it is putting money in the wrong place by investing into the chilling capacity at Cookstown, but it is a good example of being well positioned so that if there are more pigs to kill we will kill them. So at the moment our short term to medium term investment will be increasing the capacity at Cookstown to accommodate greater numbers of Northern Irish pigs rather than creating a second site against the uncertainty of what pig numbers are going forward with another set of site overheads. It has got to be more cost effective to stick with one site short term and see what comes out of next year.

618. The Chairman: Mr Hilliard, we had the Ulster Agriculture Organisation Society with us this morning, and they said they had a series of meetings with you, but no real outcome came from those meetings. Would you care to comment on that? That was they had meetings with you and others concerning the future of the pig industry and what should be done now and proposals made, but there was really no response from your side of the table.

619. Mr Hilliard: Well I happen to attend many meetings and forgive me, in terms of exactly what banner I have been having various meetings, but I am not aware of having any meetings recently. The closest communication we have been having with Northern Irish producers is about setting up a large co-operative to try and get the synergies between a co-operative group marketing pigs and our own working more together.

620. The Chairman: That would probably be the meeting.

621. Mr Hilliard: First we have had, I think one might say, three meetings, one was quite a while ago to cover the groundwork, to establish whether they could apply for a marketing grant to set up the system. It went quite quiet for quite a while. We have had a second meeting and at our cost we have invited all the leading players of that organisation over to Malton. It has been very much focused on us telling them what we are looking for as a product. I do not want to bore this meeting with the facts and contest that perhaps the Ballymoney pig might not be the best pig around, we have paid for about --

622. The Chairman: It might not satisfy the Chinese or Japanese.

623. Mr Kane: Closer to Southern Ireland.

624. Mr Hilliard: We have invited eight or 10 people of that Association across to Malton, we have shown them Irish material going down the slicing line and the complications it is causing us, we are genuinely working towards contract supplies of pigs coming into Malton. It was not more of the macro about what we have to do within the industry, almost along these conversations.

625. The Chairman: Right. Mr Ford?

626. Mr Ford: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Just following up, could we ask whether you expect to be engaging in any contract with the United Pig Producers Co-op in the near future on the basis of those discussions, or whether you think it has merely been a demonstration of the product you are looking for and you are leaving it to them to carry on and do things.

627. Mr Hilliard: No, I certainly envisage working closely with that organisation. I see great synergies in it being set up. We have known several of the individuals for the few years that we have been over here, we can work well with them. We have identified common targets. I am sure if we were revisiting the topic in a year's time, then one would find in place working contracts securing pigs and giving a consistent price for consistent deliveries.

628. Mr Ford: Can I turn to two of the problems that you raised. You mentioned a number of times the meat and bone meal ban. You also talked about higher welfare standards in the UK. I think I would probably share the Chairman's concerns that the meat and bone meal ban is likely to be intensified across Europe on a scale and not removed, or perhaps if it was equally applied across Europe that might reduce your differential. Also can you tell us in terms of the higher welfare standards, have you sought to use that in any way in your marketing to ordinary consumers, or have you merely addressed the concept that you are marketing a bulk commodity, rather than marketing a superior commodity because of the higher standards it is produced to.

629. Mr Hilliard: To answer the first question, to a certain extent I do not mind which way the playing field is levelled but it needs to be levelled because we cannot sustain eight pence a kilo difference between our costs and those in Denmark and Holland. In terms of the welfare, I think really the pig meat industry was slow in taking up the opportunity of marketing the improved welfare that the unique legislation forced upon it. The marketing gurus of organisations like the LMC tell us that you should not communicate directly to the consumer aspects of what happened on the farm in terms of extolling the better virtues of a pork chop or a rasher of bacon. When the legislation took effect and had an impact on UK supplies from 1st January 1999, if we had had the sort of campaigns that are currently running then I think we would have been in a stronger position to maintain the price differentials of British material over and above the EU's. That was not the case and really what happened over the first year to 18 months was we gave the opportunity to the Danes and the Dutch to turn over small percentages of their herds to meet those standards. Quite frankly, there is a plentiful supply of Danish material, 15% of their herd, and a similar equipment percentage within the Dutch herd that meets those two UK legislations. The argument now is no longer necessarily on nationality; those countries are producing the same product. Therefore the difference is welfare rather than just nationality, and it is very hard to communicate welfare to somebody who does not really want to be reminded of what happened on a farm when she makes her purchase and eats a pork chop.

630. Mr Ford: Are you satisfied with the current marketing campaign or do you think it is leaning in the wrong direction.

631. Mr Hilliard: The current one in terms of the pictures?

632. Mr Ford: She is feeding them and now she will be fed to them.

633. Mr Hilliard: I think I share the concerns of our customers, the major retailers, that it could very easily have a negative impact on total pig meat sales. I think it is the sort of thing quite frankly that we ought to have had in our armoury just over two years ago, and it is the sort of thing that ought to have been a veiled threat to the retailers - that unless they had lots of British material on the counter then this is the sort of the thing that our industry would have hit the ground with. The problem is that we have given the Danes and the Dutch time to catch up. There is a sufficient supply of the equivalent standard, the scaremongery might run the risk that it dampens demand on the whole pork category.

634. Mr Armstrong: Would you be willing to enter into contracts with pig farmers in Northern Ireland that had pigs of the right sort of quality that you require to keep a viable pig industry in Northern Ireland and recover for those farmers a price for the pigs that they would be in a profitable situation, since you are an international company and we do not have a company in Northern Ireland that is known to us and identifies what Northern Ireland needs. We would like to have some company in Northern Ireland that would think of the Northern Ireland farmer instead of thinking of making profit on a worldwide base, because the Northern Ireland farmer would be there to produce a profit and have a viable industry in our area.

635. Mr Hilliard: The short answer to that is we will be offering the same contracts over here that we have in England.

636. Mr Armstrong: We do not have an industry or a person of your calibre in Northern Ireland to look after the pig industry, to make sure there is a pig industry here. In other words, the pigs could be got somewhere else, it is not priority to have a pig industry in Northern Ireland.

637. Mr Hilliard: No, we are making investments into the Cookstown plant, and as an operational manager I want that plant to be running at full capacity. We will be looking to do everything that we can to make sure that those pigs are procured in a consistent number week in, week out. It will be more on a contractual basis.

638. Mr Armstrong: Is there any way that you can encourage those farmers to do that and then be in a profitable situation.

639. Mr Hilliard: Sorry?

640. Mr Armstrong: Is there any way that you can encourage the farmers to enter the contract with you so that they are in a profitable situation instead of non-profitable.

641. Mr Hilliard: I think it is pretty up-to-date information, but I think if we are looking at the prices that are around this week or next week the pig industry here is returning back to break even. One has to remember that there is quite a wide range of break even points according to the levels of efficiency of farms. Therefore, it is quite difficult for me to say every farmer would be back into profit. That is not quite the point this week and next week. But I would certainly forecast against the falling herd size and the rise in price of the simple supply and demand equation. I would anticipate that almost every pig producer will be enjoying a profitable situation in the following weeks.

642. The Chairman: PJ.

643. Mr Bradley: Thank you. It is nearly on the same lines as the last question. If the pig industry here never recovers, what do you honestly believe that would mean in economic terms as far as Unigate, your parent company, is concerned.

644. Mr Hilliard: I just don't think along those lines. As long as the politicians can make sure that we can operate on a level playing field, I know that I can process material just as efficiently as any Dutch and Danish plant. I know that the pig farmer here and in England is just as good as his Dane and Dutch counterpart and putting the two together there is no reason to have negative talk like that. What we have to do is address how many hands and how many straightjackets we are in as an industry at this point in time. It should not come down to that. We have been thorough a crisis and an enormous amount of money has been lost. We are currently handicapped because of the £5.25 meat and bone meal, but we are coming through it. Regrettably, and I do mean that, regrettably a lot of farmers have gone out of business. We have seen the downsizing of the herd. But those people who remain in the pig industry have come through it. Clearly they have got large debts behind them, but at least we have got to that crossroads where we are back to a break even and the price is continuing to rise because of the reduction in number. When more pigs come to the table, if I can put it like that, because profitability is returned what you must do is make sure that we have got the opportunity to fight on a level playing field.

645. Mr Bradley: You are confident that you can keep it on board.

646. Mr Hilliard: Yes. I do not think I particularly answered that. I did not dodge that first question, I guess there were so many points to answer. We have got no intention of pulling out. We had that crossroads of the decision-making process when we had the disastrous fire at Ballymoney. We had the insurance money; it would have been very easy to take that money and run. We pledged our presence to the Province; we made a pretty high investment expenditure into acquiring Unipork, and we are currently investing into the Cookstown operation to be able to process more pigs.

647. The Chairman: Mr. Dallat was not able to be with us this morning so we must get him in.

648. Mr Dallat: Mr. Hilliard, you made reference to your working closely with the IDB earlier, many of my constituents lost their jobs when the Ahoghill plant was closed. What notice was the IDB given before that closure was announced.

649. Mr Hilliard: 24 hours.

650. Mr Dallat: Two hours, but I do not want to be accused of talking rubbish. Really my main question in terms of adding value to pork product, is your company investing in research and development to improve the quality of material offered to the consumer (and I am thinking in particular of dry cured, things like that) which would put your product well ahead of the rather inferior stuff that comes in from other places.

651. Mr Hilliard: The company at the moment produces the full range from pre-packed pork chops, marinated and barbecued rib steaks; when we talk about bacon rashers we do dry cure, we do sweet cure. At the end of the day we have to supply what our customers want, and people are very much cost conscious and there are price points to be hit. Therefore we will be serving the major UK retailers with a whole range of the products on the shelf. Somebody can chose between a value economy packet all the way through to a finest range and a value range incorporating dry cure. We already do that. But I think to answer your question with an industry hat on, what we have to do is try and put resource into balancing the carcass better. If you were to ask me what you would have changed in our industry had you known what was going to happen, the thing that hit us with the greatest impact was the fact that we relied on so much of that material going not to the UK retailer but to foreign processors. Over here we have such a demand for the leg for gammon joints and hams, the loin part of the animal for pork chops and bacon, and yet we rely alone on exporting bellies to lardon manufacturers in France or to processing factories in Japan, shoulders going out onto the continent. What we lack is a traditional charcuiterie type demand from the consumers from all those things that complete the balance of the carcass.

652. Self criticism would say what we have got to do is NPD work in finding new products for those parts of the pig. The pig in lean meat protein is just as cost effective and can stand up against poultry or any other protein. We have to stop looking at it as almost Victorian categories of pork, bacon and ham, and just see it as a processible protein. The NPD work I referred to has got to go into creating new products for the parts of the pig that we don't traditionally eat over here.

653. Mr Dallat: Is that taking place in Cookstown?

654. Mr Hilliard: Our central NPD resource is actually in Malta. Cookstown is very much focused on slaughtering pigs, doing it well over here and getting the material into our other plants.

655. The Chairman: My Deputy Chairman, Mr. Savage.

656. Mr Savage: Mr. Hilliard, now we have got a commitment from you that you are here and you are going to stay, there is one question I would like to ask you and it is the basic down-to-earth question that everybody wants to know: How can we get our pig industry back into a situation where the farmers are getting a profit and you are getting a profit. What do you say is the way forward?

657. Mr Hilliard: We have accepted that we can't do anything about currency. If you can sort out meat and bone meal for us, that £5.25, quite genuinely the farmer and processor can sort the rest out. If there is just one request on the wish list to put us on the right road again it is sorting the £5.25 out.

658. The Chairman: Well, there will be a bit of controversy over that, but that brings us to the end. We could have done with another hour but I am sure you are glad you don't have to sit here. Thank you for coming, we are grateful to you and we would welcome any correspondence that you would like to give us, especially on price figures. That would be helpful to our final report.

659. Mr Hilliard: Thank you very much, thank you.

Appendices to the minutes of evidence

The Co-operative Wholesale Society (CWS) Appendix A

Dunnes Stores Limited Appendix B

Marks and Spencer Appendices C & D

Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Appendix E

Safeway Appendix F

Sainsbury's Supermarkets Limited Appendix G

Tesco Appendix H

Livestock and Meat Commission for Northern Ireland (LMC) Appendix I

Northern Ireland Meat Exporters' Association (NIMEA) Appendix J

Ulster Agricultural Organisation Limited (UAOS) Appendix K

Northern Ireland Poultry Federation (NIPF) Appendix L

Northern Ireland Grain Trade Association (NIGTA) Appendices M & N

Wilson's Country Limited Appendix O

Appendix A

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: THE CO-OPERATIVE WHOLESALE SOCIETY

18 January 2000

Procurement Policy

I am sorry I was unable to respond to your letter before 17 January 2000, but I can now confirm we would be happy to meet the Committee and/or attend public hearings.

I should begin by explaining that Belfast Co-operative Society has traded for over 110 years but in 1983 it became part of CWS. We operated 31 stores in Northern Ireland and have a Head Office and distribution centre at Carrickfergus. Procurement policies are determined by CWS buyers in Manchester; their pricing policy with regard to Northern Ireland is quite clear: we aim to source as much as possible of what we sell in Northern Ireland from Northern Irish suppliers. Overall, about a quarter of what we sell is bought locally which is worth about £18m a year. In addition, a similar value of business is sourced in Northern Ireland but is shipped over to sell through our stores in Britain.

With regard to potatoes; all the potatoes we sell in Northern Ireland are bought locally - although obviously if there was to be a major supply problem we would have to supplement local supplies with stocks brought over from England or Scotland. Our sole supplier is Wilsons Country, 33 Mahon Road, Portadown, Co Armagh, and we would have no objectin to your contacting them on this matter.

Generally speaking, we do not force mainland varieties on to our Irish customers, and we sell varieties such as Comber or Red Rooster, which are not available on the mainland. We do, of course, also sell certain varieties - Cava, Estima, - on both sides of the water.

Referring to country of origin labelling, our corporate policy is again clear and we would never mislead by saying a product was "packed in Northern Ireland" if it was not also grown in Northern Ireland. In that connection you may be interested in the attached note I wrote to the Minister of Agriculture last October, with its accompanying Code of Practise, which I commend to your members.

If you would like any further information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

 

W D SHANNON
Head of Corporate Affairs

NORTHERN IRELAND PRODUCE PROCUREMENT

The Co-op began trading in Northern Ireland over 110 years ago as the Belfast Co-operative Society which became part of the CWS in 1983. We currently operate 31 stores and have a head office and distribution centre at Carrickfergus. Procurement is undertaken from our centralised buying function based in Manchester. We spend approximately £18m a year in Northern Ireland on Produce which is subsequently sold there, and a further £18m on produce which is shipped to the mainland for sale therein. CWS Farms group is the largest farmer in the UK farming some 80,000 hectares of land. As a result, we are acutely aware of the crisis in the farming industry and are happy to send senior personnel to your agricultural development committee meeting.

Our representatives today are:

David Anderson, Chief Officer, Northern Ireland Co-op
Alex Payce-Drury, Head of Category Buying Produce
CWS retail procures the vast majority of its potato and vegetable requirements for Northern Irish stores, from suppliers located within the province. In the case of potatoes, the only products which are brought in from the mainland are those which cannot be sourced directly within Northern Ireland. These would include new potatoes out of season and would typically originate from sources such as Italy (Christmas period) and Egypt (January to April), and conversely set skin product during the home grown new season.

CWS currently has two potato suppliers in Northern Ireland and these are:

1. Wilson's Country
33 Mahon Road
Portadown
Co Armagh

Potatoes from this supplier are supplied to stores via our distribution centre at Carrickfergus.

2. Brendan Robinson
21 Lisdivin Road
Bready
Strabane
Co Fermanagh

Potatoes from this source are supplied direct to local stores mainly in Fivemiletown, Irvinestown, and Omagh.

Price negotiations take place on a weekly basis between the account manager and the CWS buyer based in Manchester. In the case of Brendan Robinson, we can report that we have received only one application for a price change since September of 1999.

Specifications for the delivery of product packed under Co-op brand are tightly controlled and monitored by the CWS Quality Assurance Manager, and this includes varieties which are deemed suitable for pre packing for ultimate fresh consumption. The list of acceptable varieties for the Northern Irish supply differs significantly from those which are offered for sale on the mainland, and is designed to reflect local preferences with the inclusion for sale of varieties such as Red Rooster, Kerrs Pink, and British Queens, which are not commonly seen on the mainland. It should be noted however that sales of these varieties are not strong and are out performed by sales of more widespread recognition.

Our suppliers are committed to supplying locally produced products in line with CWS policy, assuming the product is of sufficient quality to meet the product specification. It is of course a matter of common good economic sense to source product from local sources, in order to cut down on the expense of transport.

It is not CWS policy to use the term 'packed in' rather than the true country of origin for the produce, in any area of our trading which would include Northern Ireland. In order to comply with the CWS code of practice, CWS Packaging clearly states the origin of the produce, the name of the variety, the supplier code, display until code and a supplier traceability code.

In addition to the procurement of potatoes from Northern Ireland, we have a policy of sourcing produce from a point as close to its point of consumption as is possible, taking account of all logistical, economic and technical factors involved.

To this end other agricultural Produce is sourced from the following:

Hughes Mushrooms
Truemount Road
Dungannon
Co Tyrone

Sparkipak
3 Moat Road
Comber
Co Down

Robipak
Michelin Road
Newtownabbey
Co Antrim

Fyffes
Balmoral Road
Belfast
Willowbrook
50 Whiterock Road
Killinchy
Newtownards

Clonmore Farms
98 Clonmore Road
Dungannon
Co Tyrone

These include locally produced vegetables, prepared salads and vegetables and imported fruit products. In the case of Hughes Mushrooms, that supplier supplies 100% of the requirements of the Northern Irish stores and also the largest proportion of the requirements of mainland based Co-op societies.

28 October 1999

Rt Hon Nick Brown MP
Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries & Food
House of Commons
London SW1

Dear Minister

Origin Labelling

I am writing to express our support and enthusiasm for your proposed guidelines on Origin Labelling received today from JFSSG. What you are espousing - the identification of origin of the product itself, not merely where it was packed, and the country of origin of major ingredients - is already the norm on Co-op Brand products. It was one of the many improvements in consumer friendly labelling introduced by the CWS when we launched our Honest Labelling Campaign in November 1997.

The campaign is supported by a Code of Practice on Labelling Pre-packed products, and I enclose the appropriate pages. Section B, on Origin Labelling, details the policy we adopted then. We have since gone further. Recognising most consumers want to know where the meat in products originates, we now detail this on all meat products irrespective of the amount contained in the product. The enclosed examples demonstrate this: the information is normally to be found on the back of the label, with all the other consumer information, and normally immediately next to our name and address:

Chicken in a Leek & Bacon Sauce Product of UK
Made using Dutch Chicken

Lasagne Product of UK
Made using British Beef

Tex-Mex Style Chilli con Carne Product of UK
Made using Argentinian Beef

4 Slices Roast Beef Product of UK
Made using Australian and New Zealand Beef

Wafer Thin Smoked Ham Made using British Pork

We believe our Code of Practice is an ideal starting point for industry-wide guidelines on consumer labelling. Your colleagues in the House; Tessa Jowell MP and Jeff Rooker MP, received copies at its launch and responded favourably at the time. We pointed out to them then its synergy with the consumer principles behind the Food Standards Agency. Now the Agency is about to be launched we would again commend it to you.

Yours sincerely

W D SHANNON
Head of Corporate Affairs

INTRODUCTION

The law starts from the premise that where foods are grown and processed is unimportant other than when some element of the product or its packaging might imply a particular origin which is not the case. This merely protects consumers from being overtly misled.

Irrespective of overt symbols and descriptions, consumers have expectations about the origin of the foods they eat. Food and ingredients are no longer sourced and processed locally or from particular countries but, with the aid of modern technology, may be grown in a variety of different countries, transported elsewhere to be processed to an intermediary stage and only packed in the final form in the country of sale. Many consumers simply want to know where food is produced. Others wish to use this information as a basis for choice: to support local industries or avoid foods produced by regimes and practices to which they object.

The starting point for the code is to require a country of origin declaration on every product. It also requires that the source of ingredients and the place of manufacture are separately identified. It provides further clarification of where place names in the name of a food can be misleading. The use of flags, symbols and other devices which are associated with a particular place of origin are limited to products which can claim a genuine association with that place. The practice of using words as a disclaimer to counteract a misleading illustration or presentation is not permitted.

LEGISLATION

"Particulars of the place of origin or provenance of the food (must be declared) if failure to give such particulars might mislead a purchaser to a material degree as to the true origin or provenance of the food."

[The Food Labelling Regulations 1996. Regulation 5(f)]

LABELLING

What about place of origin?

For the purpose of this requirement, the words "origin" and "provenance" should be taken as having the same meaning.

Particulars of the place (not necessarily the country) or origin or provenance of the food must be given.

Where is the place of origin?

The true origins of a food product are the places where it was processed and from which its ingredients were obtained and includes any place where it underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change. For example, slicing and packing qualifies as a substantial change.

In the case of a single ingredient food which is imported and then undergoes a substantial change, to state only the country of origin, the importing country, is misleading. In such cases the labelling must state both the country of origin of the ingredient and the country where it last underwent a substantial change. Usually, the main processing operation will take place in the country of origin and the product will be prepared and packed in the country of import. The appropriate labelling is produced in X. packed in Y, for example, Dutch Edam cheese packed in the UK would be labelled product of Holland, packed in UK.

Multicomponent foods will usually be made from ingredients sourced from a variety of origins. Where ingredients totalling 70% or more by weight originate from a single region, country or area this region, country or area can be stated as the country of origin. Where no specific origin can be identified, products must be labelled made in X with ingredients from more than one country, where X is the place of manufacture. Wherever it is possible to be more precise, the place of origin of individual ingredients should be identified.

Where more substantial processing is undertaken in the country of import, the distinction must be made in the declaration as to which process occurred where, for example, oranges squeezed in UK from oranges grown in Israel should be described as: produce of UK, made from Israeli oranges. [Bacon cured in Denmark but sliced and packed in UK would be described as: produce of Denmark, packed in UK.]

Where the origin of products can vary, for example, from season to season, or where imports from more than one country are blended this should be reflected in the country of origin declaration, eg product of more than one country. This must always be narrowed to the smallest possible geographic area, eg produce of EU or product of SE Asia. Such declarations must only be used where records show that there is blending or variation of the source of the product over a period of 12 months.

Where on the label and what size should the origin declaration be?

Usually the declaration can be included anywhere on the pack provided it is in a clear and legible format.

Where the name of a food includes a place name, this may mislead the consumer as to the origin of the product. Some place names used in the name of the food are the place where the food was made, eg Dutch gouda or Scottish salmon. Others may refer to a particular type of product where the customary name incorporates a place name but the product is not/no longer produced exclusively there, eg Cornish pastie or Eccles cake. It is never clear cut with names like these, especially with those products which may be associated with a certain quality/premium product, eg Cornish ice cream or Devon toffee, whether the consumer interprets the place as the place of origin or a reference to a particular quality.

Where the name of a food or its brand or trade name refers to a place other than where the food is made, the place of origin must be made absolutely clear.

Appendix B

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: DUNNES STORES LIMITED

03 February 2000

I am replying to your letter of 28 January addressed to Mr Eddie Kane. Regrettably, due to previous commitments it is not possible to have our suitable company representative at the meeting planned for 10.45 on Friday 11 February.

Dunnes Stores position in respect of potatoes is that we source all our potatoes sold in our Northern Ireland Stores from Wilsons Potatoes and Vitafresh, Newry.

Dunnes Stores has always had a policy in respect of its Northern Ireland Stores of supporting locally sourced products and this position is well understood by our numerous suppliers particularly those suppliers backing into the Agri-business sector such as Moy Park, O'Kane poultry, Dungannon Meats and Wilson Potatoes.

In recent times we have been conscious that this position has not always been fully appreciated by our customers so we have embarked on a series of advertising activities and in store theme promotions to highlight, for the benefit of our customers, products and produce which is sourced from Northern Ireland Food Processors.

Yours sincerely

GERRY McLORNAN

Appendix C

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: MARKS & SPENCER

18th January 2000

I am writing to confirm our telephone conversation of 11th January that I will appear before the Committee with Mr Angus Wilson from Wilson's Country Fresh, our potato supplier, at your convenience. We would be pleased to explain our approach to the retailing of potatoes in more detail to the Committee. We thought it might be helpful to make a few comments in advance to describe more generally the way in which Marks & Spencer has developed the food business over a period of many years.

Marks & Spencer has a well established record of giving support to the communities in which we trade and this includes, where possible, local sourcing. In this regard we buy a significant proportion of the fresh potatoes sold in our Northern Irish stores from Northern Irish growers. We have been buying our potatoes since 1994 from Wilson's Country Fresh with whom we are developing a long term relationship, a key element in the success of our food business. The success of this relationship to date has allowed us to dramatically increase the tonnage of potatoes that we buy in Northern Ireland.

Marks & Spencer's objective is to set leading standards in food retailing and we do not look to sell large volumes of cheap potatoes. To this end we buy particular potato varieties that customers tell us are the best, and we are constantly looking to procure the cream of the crop in these varieties. Whilst we are not trading a commodity product but a speciality vegetable, the prices we pay will be affected by the volatility of the international potato market, an issue which we and our suppliers must manage. Our customers demand quality and value. Retail prices must reflect supply costs but may also be constrained by what the customers are willing to pay.

With regard to crisping, Marks & Spencer is not involved in producing crisps or sourcing crisping potatoes from Northern Ireland and therefore we cannot comment on any possible impact on local producers.

We hope that we shall be able to help the Committee to clarify some of the issues relating to potatoes. With regard to the more general question of farmers' debt, the terms of reference of the current inquiry are wide ranging. We have insufficient experience of these matters in Northern Ireland for us to make any meaningful contribution and regret that we cannot be of further assistance to the Committee.

Yours sincerely

 

D A GIBSON
Senior Buyer - Potato Department

Appendix D

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: MARKS & SPENCER

7 February 2000

I am writing in response to your letter of 28th January 2000 requesting a memorandum on Marks & Spencer's policy towards and relationships with primary producers in Northern Ireland.

1. Marks & Spencer is proud of its long-term relationship with Northern Ireland. The first Marks & Spencer store in Northern Ireland opened in Belfast thirty-three years ago. Our retail operation is now very significant with seven stores and a major distribution depot, which currently employ over 1600 people. We have invested £65m in this operation over the last five years.

2. Marks and Spencer also has a significant food supply base operation in Northern Ireland, for more than forty years we have been partners with your important agri-food sector. However, our contacts with your business community go beyond stores and suppliers. Through Business in the Community Marks & Spencer people gladly supply expertise to small food enterprises. We are pleased to be on the Queens University Advisory Board and to support the agricultural industry with a major exhibit at the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society Annual Show each May.

3. The success of Marks & Spencer's food business is based on our range of high quality and highly innovative products produced by the best suppliers, that differentiate us from the high volume supermarkets. Our policy of developing collaborative supplier relationships and the excellent quality of Northern Ireland products has led to a highly successful partnership with strong sales and volume growth.

4. As I highlighted to you in my letter of 18th of January we have been buying potatoes in Northern Ireland from Wilson's Country Fresh since 1994. These potatoes are being sold in our stores in Northern Ireland and Eire and this year we will also be selling some across the rest of Europe. Wilson's Country Fresh's business is growing dramatically in tonnage and value terms with Marks & Spencer.

5. Avondale Food Ltd is an important supplier to several departments in our food business. Avondale's business with Marks and Spencer is growing dramatically, 50% of their business is now sold in the rest of Europe, and they have several new lines which are soon to be launched which will continue their strong growth.

6. An important supplier to our dairy business is Dromona Quality Foods, they now supply 60% of all the butter sold by Marks & Spencer in Europe. Similarly, all of the milk Marks & Spencer sell in Northern Ireland is produced in Northern Ireland.

7. We have a substantial business with O'Kanes who have supplied us with poultry for over thirty years. The extremely high standards of innovation at O'Kanes has been critical in achieving our pre-eminence in the chilled poultry business. We currently buy some 4 million chickens and 30,000 turkeys from O'Kanes each year. O'Kanes have become the largest importer of lemons into Northern Ireland and the Marks & Spencer Lemon Chicken is one of our star lines across Europe.

8. In the meat industry we have a similarly strong story. 10% of all Northern Irish steer carcasses are supplied into the Marks & Spencer food business.

9. Our policy in Marks and Spencer is to source the best quality and value foods from our suppliers. We are not a supermarket, but rather a food retailer who offers a range of innovative, high quality products which represent good value for money. Our approach is to work closely with a supplier to jointly develop a product, an approach that leads to close working partnerships. Our suppliers are paid promptly, assisting their business' cash flow.

10. The continuing success of our retail operation and supplier partnerships in Northern Ireland is based on our ability to work with the best suppliers to create highly innovative and differential products. We have every confidence that after over three decades of business in Northern Ireland Marks and Spencer and its suppliers have a strong future in both Northern Ireland and across our European business.

Yours sincerely

D. Gibson
Senior Buyer - Potato Department

Appendix E

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: MUSGRAVE SUPERVALU-CENTRA

7 February 2000

Contents

Paragraph

Introduction 1.1

Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Company Background 2.1

Purchasing & Sourcing Policy 3.1

Purchasing & Sourcing Policy - The Potato Sector 3.2

Consumer Marketing 4.1

Industry Initiatives with Local Producers 5.1

Developing Market Opportunities for Local Producers 6.1

Appendix 7.1

1:1 Introduction

Musgrave SuperValu-Centra welcomes the opportunity to contribute to this very important forum and is confident that the aims of the committee can be achieved in terms of a pro-active, collective response from the industry to supporting and promoting local producers at retail level.

2:1 Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Company Background

  • Musgrave SuperValu-Centra is in partnership with independent retailers, providing unrivalled distribution and an extensive retail support package to retailers who trade under our franchise brands SuperValu and Centra.
  • Entered NI Market in 1996 with the acquisition of 5 medium sized supermarkets.
  • Currently service 33 SuperValu supermarkets and 16 Centra stores, 49 retail outlets in all, 33 of which are locally, independently owned.
  • In the process of upgrading company owned stores in NI for sale to local, independent retail operators.
  • Store refurbishment plans entail considerable investment in service providers throughout the Province, as well as job creation in stores.
  • Combined retail t/o in NI in 1999 was £138 million stg, with group retailers servicing approximately 8% of the grocery market.
  • MSVC NI offices and distribution centres established in Fortwilliam and Mallusk.
  • 119 company central-office and warehouse personnel are employed in NI, with a further 2,000 employed in independent and company-owned stores.
  • Independent grocery sector in ROI accounts for 48% of total sales, largely due to Musgrave Group Support, by comparison with around 29% independents' shares in NI. MSVC expansion into NI market will start process of restoring balance between the multiple and independent sectors, ensuring healthy competition and choice in the marketplace.
  • Independent retailers re-invest in the local communities in which they make a living rather than withdraw profits to headquarters of a multi-national multiple group.

3:1 Current Purchasing & Sourcing Policy

  • The ability to buy as a group is one of the major services supplied to independent retailers through MSVC, allowing independents to compete with multiples.
  • As partners to independent community-based retailers, it is company policy to source locally, wherever possible, as the company needs thriving local economies to ensure a solid customer base for our independent operators, many of whom are based in farming communities.
  • Our company deals locally with over 200 Northern Ireland suppliers.
  • MSVC negotiates prices with trading partners in the various food categories, having reviewed all relevant market movements and supplier-led cost proposals.
  • Recommended retail pricing is advised to all stores following review of primary competitors. However independent retailers can, and do, set their own prices occasionally.
  • In Northern Ireland, almost 60% of all MSVC purchases are from local suppliers.
  • The company operates a buy local policy for fresh produce, subject to seasonality. Almost 70% of fresh foods volume is produced locally.
  • Local trading partners have benefited substantially from improved distribution available through MSVC eg Salad Fayre in Newtownards had a 56% sales increase in 1999 - also Dromona & Willowbrook.
  • MSVC buying policy insists on 100% local sourcing in areas where we have total control on procurement: Eg
    • fresh pork 100% NI
    • fresh beef 100% NI
    • fresh lamb 100% NI
    • deli sausges 100% NI
    • deli bacon 100% NI
    • milk 100% NI
    • eggs 100% NI
  • Extensive promotion has increased fresh meat sales in the past twelve months. Promotional activity was up to 51% in 1999, with the trend to continue. 2000 began with a major SuperValu meat sale in January, including NI pork sausages promoted on TV at 2p/kg.
  • We are currently in the process of rolling out a centralised distribution service for all chilled and fresh produce in NI. When fully implemented, this system will allow wider distribution of locally sourced fresh produce to all our franchise customers.
  • Retail sales for fresh products in ROI increased 35% in the first year following roll-out of a similar system in 1998, with overall supplier business up 15%. Already in NI improved sales of local brands have been recorded.
  • We source £11.6 million NI produce for supply into the ROI market and have targets to develop this in the coming year.
  • In the Republic of Ireland, where group retail turnover is IR£1.05 billion, 70% of all purchases are from local suppliers.
  • The company has won ROI trade award for support of indigenous producers, regularly tops research rankings of retailers "buying Irish" and is regularly credited in public by Govt Ministers for support of indigenous industry, the farming sector and local communities. We are pursuing a similar position in the NI market.

3:2 Purchasing & Sourcing Policy: The Potato Market

  • MSVC NI sources all potato requirements for the NI market from 3 local packers:
    • Wilsons
    • Glens of Antrim
    • Fane Valley
  • Glens of Antrim and Fane Valley only supply 100% local produce of NI under their own brands and the SuperValu own-label.
  • Wilsons supply branded and own-produce sourced 100% on the island of Ireland.
  • White Potatoes - 100% NI
    (own-label)
  • Pink Potatoes - 50% NI
    - 25% GB
    - 25% ROI

Blight problems experienced in the NI market necessitated the supply of ROI produce during 1999. Local sourcing is the preferred option which is only over-ridden when suitable supply is not available.

  • All own-brand and branded potatoes in Northern Ireland are labelled by Country of origin, as is the legislative requirement. MSVC policy is also to highlight product of Northern Ireland, where possible on packaging and at point-of-sale.
  • 99% of MSVC crisp sales in Northern Ireland is branded product. Almost 50% of that is supplied by Tayto NI in Tandregee, Co Armagh. SuperValu own-brand crisp sales, supplied from Co Meath, represent 1% of the NI SuperValu sales volume.

4:1 Consumer Marketing

  • MSVC NI invests £1.9 million in National and local advertising annually, with additional local advertising by stores.
  • Promotion of local produce includes local press, point-of-sale, national television and mailshot/brochure activity.
  • A corporate instore identity kit, with artwork and dedicated point-of-sale, for all stores promotes the advertising and POS opportunities in identifying local produce.
  • PONI products are all highlighted instore with dedicated POS.
  • Regular promotion of local produce is conducted instore, including tastings, coupon offers, multi-buys etc.
  • The fresh food trading department co-ordinates group price promotions on local produce, particularly fresh meat, on a 52 wk per year basis, to encourage sales. Eg: 25% of all pork, 25% of all lamb, 2p/kg pork sausages etc.
  • Instore cookery demonstrations have been organised to promote superior quality and versatility of local produce.
  • Regularly market "Season's First Local Produce" such as launch of First NI strawberries with Lester Brownlee Co of Armagh on SuperValu's stand at last year's Balmoral Show.

5:1 Industry Initiatives with Local Producers

  • Collaborative projects with Ulster Pork & Bacon Forum and local suppliers, Fred C Robinson's, to market local produce and build brand identity - in-store POS campaigns, national TV advertising and brochures for "Are You Pickin' Ulster Pork?", campaign etc.
  • Supplier partnerships in NI include the development of Armagh Baked Ham exclusively for SuperValu and Centra by Mourne Country Meats.
  • Developed a gourmet tomato range exclusively with Greenmount College in Antrim.
  • Projects with Ulster Farmers Union - sponsored trade shows/potato conference - 24 Feb 2000, Balmoral Show etc.
  • UFU Chairman Will Taylor frequently attends local SuperValu store openings, as a guest of the independent owners, and has written a testimonial to SuperValu's support of local producers.
  • Farming Life newspaper supplement sponsored for Balmoral Show organisers.
  • Sponsor "Insight" dedicated supplement in Ulster Grocer bi-monthly, highlighting joint business initiatives with NI producers and suppliers and providing editorial space to spokespersons of producer organisations.
  • Sponsored 1999 supplement in UK Grocer magazine promoting local NI supplier base and have committed to 2000 publication also.
  • MSVC £3,000 bursary for Food Safety (MSc) students at the Agriculture and Food Science centre in Queens University. Recognising that farm businesses need to enhance quality management systems to optimise competitiveness and profitability and also that students from farming backgrounds need financial support to counteract high "drop-out" rate due to financial constraints.
  • Musgrave SuperValu-Centra personnel make themselves available to NI producer groups and trade organisations to discuss business development and promotion.
  • £3,000 awards fund presented annually in association with NIFDA (Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association) to encourage the further career development of agri-food post-graduate students.

6:1 An Approach to Developing Market Opportunities
for Local Producers

  • MSVC has been central to the establishment of NIIRTA, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association, and commits to having the Association address measures for independent traders to develop business with local producers.
  • Identify key individuals from major organisations involved in producing, marketing, and retailing NI produce - eg: PONI assoc, major retailers, UFU, Govt agencies - and schedule a one day "think-tank" to present issues and examine solutions. MSVC would welcome the opportunity to be involved.
  • Formalise contact with existing marketing boards for the different sectors eg: LMC meat marketing board, NIFDA etc to address sectoral issues and promote produce at trade and consumer level through dedicated marketing campaigns carried throughout the retail industry.
  • Develop marketing boards, as required in other sectors, such as fruit and vegetable marketing or dairy produce.
  • MSVC would dedicate suitably qualified personnel to work with each board, and alongside other retail and trade representatives, to pursue the objectives of the marketing boards.
  • Establish a resource/Authority advising producers on how to satisfy current market demands, in terms of production, packing, distribution etc. The resources of highly experienced MSVC trading personnel could be made available to advise the authority.
  • In the ROI we have worked closely with the Irish Farmers Assoc to build producer groups capable of supplying modern retail and consumer demands. With the already high UFU producer group standards, similar trading relationships can be effected in NI.
  • We partner individual indigenous supplier companies to develop own-brand food lines for our stores - egg producers, dairy ranges etc - although new to the NI market, it is our intention to identify opportunities for similar trading and "mentoring" partnerships in the Province. (see Para 5:1 Mourne Country Meats).
  • We support Government in the ROI at a very practical level, on all food supply and producer issues. For example, in 1996 during the BSE scare, we headed a Govt expert group set-up to talk down the scare at consumer level and get Irish beef back on supermarket shelves.
  • The Musgrave Group Managing Director Seamus Scally is the only retail representative on a Government appointed "Agri-Food 2010" committee to address indigenous food supply and marketing. MSVC NI personnel could be made available to local Government on a similar basis.

Sheila Gilroy-Collins, Marketing Managing
Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Northern Ireland Tel: (232) 835021

Appendix F

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: SAFEWAY

12 January 2000

Procurement Policy

I refer to Dr Ian Paisley's letter of 21st December addressed to my colleague Brian McColl. I am replying on behalf of Safeway.

I will deal with each of your concerns in turn:

1. It is difficult for us as retailers to comment on the prices which potato growers receive from the packers they supply. As you are no doubt aware, the supply chain for potatoes and other types of produce has three stages. The grower supplies the packer, who packs and transports the product to the retailer's distribution centre (in our case our depot at Larne). The retailer then delivers to his own stores. The price we charge our customers, therefore, is driven by the price we have to pay the packers who supply us.

2. We do not have commercial relations with individual growers. However, what happens in the market place inevitably works its way back up the supply chain:

  • The potato market has been very unstable over the past 12 months. In the first quarter of 1999, potato prices were relatively high as a result of the poor crop of 1998. From May onwards, however, a bumper crop of new potatoes came on to the market and since then prices have fallen dramatically. In Northern Ireland our biggest volume line is the 2.5kg bag of white potatoes. Our retail price for this product in Northern Ireland has fallen from £1.89 to 0.95p, or by 50%, since last Spring.
  • In Northern Ireland, around 95% of the potatoes we sell are supplied to us by Glens of Antrim (GOA). The remainder are supplied by Bartletts, our Scottish supplier. Over the period since last Spring, while our retail price for 2.5kg whites has fallen by 50%, GOA's price to us is down by only 38%. In Scotland, by contrast, we have been able to reduce our retail price to 0.65p per 2.5kg bag or (66%) because our major supplier, Bartletts, have cut their price to us by a similar percentage.
  • The reason, therefore, that Northern Ireland consumers are paying 0.30p more for a 2.5kg bag than Scottish consumers is not "profiteering" by retailers but the substantial difference in our supply terms between Northern Ireland and Scotland. Bartletts are currently supplying us at a price per case which is over one third lower than GOA.
  • The reason for the differential is not that GOA are making "excessive" profits. The problem for them is that Northern Ireland is a small, relatively high cost market in which to operate. GOA are obliged to trade on lower volumes and therefore higher overheads than they would if they were based on the mainland. They also have higher land costs and pay more for their seed. We estimate that they are working on an average net profit margin to sales of around 5%, which is about the same as our own net margin. Clearly we could reduce our prices to Northern Ireland consumers by sourcing all our potato supplies from Bartletts in Scotland but we have decided that we must continue to play our part in supporting the agricultural economy in Northern Ireland.

3. I cannot really comment on your point about the manufacture of crisps as GOA do not supply us with this product.

4. As far as our potatoes are concerned, the country of origin is always made clear on the bag as well as the variety.

I hope this information answers the concerns you have raised, but if there is anything further you need, please let me know.

Yours sincerely

Kevin Hawkins
Director of Communications

Appendix G

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: SAINSBURY'S SUPERMARKETS LTD

9 February 2000

1. Introduction

1.1 Sainsbury's Supermarkets Ltd (Sainsbury's) is the largest subsidiary of J Sainsbury plc which also operates Savacentre hypermarkets, Homebase home and garden centres and Sainsbury's Bank in the UK plus Shaw's supermarkets in the US and Edge in Egypt.

1.2 Sainsbury's sources products from over 2,000 suppliers who provide some 12,000 food lines and 9,000 non-food lines. Each week around nine million customers shop in over 400 Sainsbury's supermarkets throughout the UK. Last year, Sainsbury's sold over £11.5 billion worth of food in the UK. £6 billion worth of this was food from the UK.

1.3 Today Sainsbury's has 100 suppliers in Northern Ireland, supplying fresh produce and product in stores to the Province and the rest of the United Kingdom. Sainsbury's has committed to doubling the value of its existing business sourced from Northern Ireland to between £150 and £200 million over the next few years and the value is now £120 million. Around 150,000 customers shop in the stores each week.

1.4 Sainsbury's potato supplier in the Province is Glens of Antrim based in Cushendall, Country Antrim. Glens employ 35 people and supply potatoes to all Sainsbury's stores in the Province. The business is worth £1 million per annum.

1.5 On 20 June 1995 Sainsbury's announced its intention to invest in Northern Ireland with an initial tranche of 7 stores costing £100 million and providing 2,200 full and part time jobs. Sixteen per cent of the first 1,000 jobs were from the long term unemployed.

1.6 There are five Sainsbury's supermarkets and petrol filling stations: Ballymena (December 1996), Forestside, South Belfast (March 1997), Coleraine (December 1997), Craigavon (March 1998) and Newry (September 1998). Sainsbury's in Armagh (December 1998) does not have a petrol filling station. Sainsbury's in Strand Road, Londonderry opened on 25 January this year providing around 350 jobs (this store does not have a petrol station). There are seven Homebase stores in the Province as well.

1.7 Sainsbury's currently awaits planning determination on a number of other applications including a flagship store Sprucefield, Lisburn and Newtownabbey. Further opportunities are being appraised to provide an ultimate portfolio in Northern Ireland of some 12-14 supermarkets.

1.8 This document outlines our Sainsbury's policy on sourcing Northern Ireland produce; margins and pricing policy and our buying policy using a number of case studies including potatoes.

2. Sainsbury's policy on sourcing Northern Ireland produce

2.1 Background

Sainsbury's is committed to UK agriculture, working with farmers to ensure high-quality, value for money food is available to consumers. Like all supermarkets we do not buy direct from farmers, we buy meat from processors and fruit, vegetables and salads from packers and pre-packers.

2.1.1 Prior to Sainsbury's announcement in June 1995 of its development plans for seven stores across Northern Ireland, the Company sourced £80 million worth of produce a year from Northern Ireland from 17 local suppliers. Sainsbury's has committed to doubling the value of its existing business sourced from Northern Ireland to between £150 and £200 million over the next few years and the value is now £120 million.

2.1.2 Today Sainsbury's has 100 suppliers in Northern Ireland, supplying fresh produce and product in stores to the Province and the rest of the United Kingdom. This is an example of the importance which the Company places on sourcing quality and will continue to work closely with the Industrial Development Board (IDB) and other agencies to increase the number of suppliers. No company is too small to supply Sainsbury's. No fee is required from companies in order to become a Sainsbury's supplier, and no penalty clauses are imposed in our supply contracts. The vast majority of our suppliers are free to trade with competitors. Legal disputes are rare.

2.1.3 It makes sound commercial sense to maximise local purchases for supply to our outlets in the Province, particularly on produce where there are both cost and freshness benefits in not having to transport goods several hundred miles from the mainland. Although there is strong demand in the Province for local products, we share the view of the General Consumer Council that consumers in the Province will buy local products only if they represent good value for money and good quality. Regarding the transportation of food, we estimate that we eliminated at least 1.6 million km last year, cut fuel consumption by 597,000 litres and cut CO2 emissions by 1,530 tonnes. Our suppliers also reduced food mileage by 480,000km.

2.2 'Meet the Buyer' conferences

To increase the supplying opportunities available to local producers, Sainsbury's has been proactive in sourcing product from Northern Ireland including three 'Meet the Buyer' sourcing conferences. The first was held in Belfast in 1995 and smaller events were held in Londonderry in April 1996 and in Newry in May 1998. Potential suppliers met Sainsbury's buyers on a one-to-one basis to talk about supplying opportunities.

2.2.1 In November 1999, we, along with the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce, ran a seminar to highlight supplying opportunities with Sainsbury's both in Northern Ireland and throughout the UK for smaller companies in the area.

2.3 'Partners in Produce' scheme

Three Northern Ireland companies - Glens of Antrim Potatoes (Cushendall, County Antrim), Sparky Pac (Comber, County Down) and Hughes Mushrooms (Dungannon, County Tyrone) became the first Northern Ireland 'Partners in Produce' when Sainsbury's launched its Partnership in Produce initiative in Northern Ireland in November 1997.

2.3.1 Partners benefit by the partnership providing them with a planned market for their produce and the security of a financially sound trading relationship so that growing and packing can be planned against clear sales programmes and with the back-up of Sainsbury's technological and research expertise.

2.3.2 Jobs have been created as a result of Sainsbury's supplying opportunities in Northern Ireland. The major share turnover of Dungannon Meats, for example is with Sainsbury's and as a result of this sustained level of business, Dungannon Meats now employs over 620 people and is one of the largest employers in the South Tyrone area.

2.3.3 We believe that the support we give to products through in-store promotion and our Partnership schemes is an effective way of helping the agricultural sector. If any supplier finds that his business is being diminished because of an initiative we are taking with other products in that same category, then we would work with him to try to develop his product range so that he had other means of increasing his income by, for example, spreading the product to more stores. It is of no benefit to Sainsbury's to see one of our suppliers in financial difficulty. We want them to succeed as much as they do. We need suppliers who are investing for the future, investing in better quality and investing in new varieties to improve choice and quality and who ensure that welfare and health and safety issues are dealt with. Last Autumn, Dungannon Meats, announced a new scheme to use bull calves for beef products to help tackle the current crisis in the sector.

2.3.4 We have looked at the possibility of supporting farmers' markets but we came up against a number of problems such as planning constraints restricting the use of our car parks for anything other than car parking.

2.4 Sainsbury's support at the Balmoral Show

In 1999 Sainsbury's participated for the fourth year at Northern Ireland's premier agricultural show - the Balmoral Show. The theme of Sainsbury's stand was 'supporting local growers and suppliers', a reaffirmation of the Company's commitment to Northern Ireland growers and suppliers and local sourcing in general.

2.4.1 At a reception for suppliers held at the stand, the Sainsbury's Outstanding Supplier Achievement Awards for local suppliers were inaugurated. The awards are for local suppliers who achieve exceptional business growth with the supermarket. The Awards illustrate both Sainsbury's and the award winners consistent commitment to quality last year. Dungannon Meats won the large company category and Glens of Antrim Potatoes won the small company award. Their combined growth in business with Sainsbury's was 350 per cent. Glens of Antrim employ 35 people and supply potatoes to all Sainsbury's stores in the Province. The business is worth £1 million per annum.

2.5 Supplier Development Programme

If there are suppliers and sources in Northern Ireland who are able to provide a product that is as good as one that we are already sourcing from the mainland or elsewhere then it makes sense in terms of freshness and delivery costs to develop that source. In February 1998 Sainsbury's launched a major Supplier Development Programme to assist Northern Ireland food companies in the development of their business with Sainsbury's. The programme, delivered by Leavercliff Associates, has given 27 local food companies a unique opportunity to understand how to work with and develop their business with Sainsbury's.

2.5.1 The programme took the form of a series of seminars covering areas such as understanding the UK market and identifying and exploiting product opportunities. Companies were supported by a number of one-to-one sessions, which looked at logistics, financial analysis and technical requirements. This programme is now complete and has resulted in these suppliers growing their business with Sainsbury's by around £12 million.

2.5.2 As a result of the Supplier Development Programme, Hughes Mushrooms of Dungannon is set to triple its business with Sainsbury's and is on target to supply mushrooms to the value of almost £5.5 million to Sainsbury's stores throughout the Province and across the rest of the UK.

2.5.3 The second Sainsbury's Development Programme was launched in March 1999 and involved 10 additional local Sainsbury's suppliers. Annual turnover by November 1999 had increased by 35 per cent for the suppliers involved. Forecast turnover for the next 12 months is predicted to be around 130 per cent.

2.6 Northern Ireland Suppliers: wider opportunities

A number of Northern Ireland companies who have become suppliers to Sainsbury's since the company began trading in Northern Ireland have subsequently become suppliers to Sainsbury's on the mainland. These include Tayto Crisps, Farm Fed Chickens, Irwin's bread, Morrows Pate and Hughes Mushrooms. Size is not a barrier to supplying the mainland market.

2.6.1 The company has sourced products from Dungannon Meats, Cuan Oysters and Denny's for around 20 years prior to developing stores in Northern Ireland. Farm Fed Chickens from Coleraine, Sainsbury's only source of corn fed chicken, has almost doubled its business with Sainsbury's since 1997 and recently won an additional contract expected to be worth £5 million annually with Sainsbury's to supply its premium range of corn fed chicken to the company's top 70 stores. Hughes Mushrooms will triple its business with Sainsbury's over the next 18 months to around £4.7 million a year.

2.7 Labelling policy

We are committed to supporting the local farming industry and have been labelling meat, fruit and vegetables as home-produced for many years. Therefore produce from Northern Ireland is marked 'Product of Northern Ireland'. By the middle of this year we will have labelling of origin on the remaining fresh meat products which include ready meals, sandwiches and delicatessen products.

2.7.1 We are looking to extend regionality across the UK and 'Products from Northern Ireland' will be incorporated into this policy. Any future labelling will be as simple as possible for ease of recognition and designed with the customer in mind

3. Sainsbury's Margins and Pricing Policy

3.1 Our primary aim is to deliver the very best competitive offer to our customers. In accordance with our view that the Province is part of a single national market we operate the same pricing policy in the Province as we do on the mainland, that is a national pricing policy with a few tweaks to reflect specific local trading conditions such as in the potato (see table 1), milk and bakery industries for example details of which are below. It is a popular misconception that retailers are making large profits at the expense of farmers.

3.1.1 The IGD announced recently the results of a survey into consumers attitudes to food prices and profits. It found that consumers had exaggerated views about profit levels. Consumers thought an average of 36 pence in every pound spent in food shops went in profit to retailers and 26 pence to manufacturers - the actual figures are 6.5p and 8.5p. [i.e. manufacturers profits are proportionately higher.]

3.1.2 The IGD research showed that there is little understanding of how industry makes or uses profits and there is an exaggerated view of how large profits are.

3.2 Farmgate and retail pricing

A large proportion of the cost which arises between the farm gate and the retail shop include the costs of sale and transport, processing, packing, distribution and retailing costs. Retailing costs include the cost of promotion, staff, depot and the cold chain. Processor costs have risen significantly due to additional food safety and hygiene requirements. These costs have been passed onto the retailer. We are looking ways in which these costs can be reduced without any detrimental impact on the safety and integrity of the food we sell.

3.2.1 It has been suggested that retailers put the price paid at the farmgate as well as the retail price on goods. The only price we pay is the one to our suppliers for packed produce and produce ready for retail sale. We are not involved in the price our suppliers pay to farmers. It would be far too complicated to have different labelling. If consumers are to understand what they are being presented with, then each added cost after the farmgate, be it added by the packer, abattoir, processor or retailer, would have to be explained. It is in our interests to have profitable farmers.

3.2.2 Potato example

TABLE 1: List of commodities supplied by Northern Ireland supplier, Glens of Antrim Potatoes to stores in Northern Ireland all year compared to average prices of mainland suppliers.

 

7/2/99 Cost £

Retail (pence)

%

7/8/99 Cost £

Retail (pence)

%

Present Cost £

Retai (pence)

%

Sainsbury's
Loose baking potatoes

                 

Glen's cost

11·3

49

42·3

9·6

39

38·5

7

55

33

Mainland

11·1

49

43·4

9·5

39

39·1

6·45

55

38·3

Sainsbury's
King Edwards 2·5kg

             

1·79

44·1

Glen's cost

10

2.39

47·7

N/A

N/A

N/A

8

1·79

44·1

Mainland

10·06

2·39

47·4

8·06

1·99 (proma)

 

7·36

1·79

48·6

Sainsbury's
White Potatoes 2·5kg

                 

Glen's cost

9·02

1·69

33·3

6·5

95

14·5

6·25

95

17·8

Mainland

8·96

1·69

33·7

5·9

95

22·4

3·8

69

31·2

Sainsbury's
Maris Piper 2·5kg

10·6

2·39

44·6

11

1·99

30·9

8·3

1·49

30·4

Glen's cost

10·6

2·39

44·6

11

1·99

30·9

8·3

1·49

30·4

Mainland

9·94

1·89

34·3

10·4

1·99

34·7

7·2

1·49

39·6

Sainsbury's
Red Potatoes 2·5kg

                 

Glen's cost

9·26

2·29

49·5

8·7

2·49

56·3

7

1·49

41·2

Mainland cost

9·3

2·29

49·2

9·02

2·49

54·7

6·44

1·49

45·9

3.2.3 Milk

Programming plans governing the amount of supply are agreed with produce suppliers. These plans are very beneficial to suppliers as it guarantees them a market for their product. Last year we launched an initiative with our three principal organic dairy suppliers and the Organic Milk Suppliers Co-operative. We have undertaken to pay a minimum price of 29·5 pence per litre over a five year rolling commitment. This is set against the purchase of minimum volumes raising to 155 million litres in 2003/4. We anticipate that organic milk will by then represent 15% of our total milk sales.

3.2.4 Sainsbury's sources all its conventional milk in the Province from local dairies. When we opened our first store, representatives of the Dairy Industry highlighted their concerns to us over the possible impact on milk rounds in the Province. We made a concession, to raise the price we would charge for 4 pint milk from a mainland retail price of 83p to 89p.

3.2.5 The Bakery Industry

Sainsbury's bakery trade with Northern Ireland suppliers has increased by £0·5 million over the past year. This represents an increase of almost 17 per cent. Sainsbury's is aware of the problems of the local bakery industry which far pre-date the arrival of Sainsbury's in the Province. There has long been serious overcapacity in the industry which is inefficient and has been unable to make reasonable profits despite high retail prices. The IDB recognises that there is overcapacity in the industry and has said that it is "unable to finance a sector which was already over capacity" (20/11/99).

We do not sell Economy bread in Northern Ireland (sold at 17p on the mainland) because it is not possible to source this locally or to sell at this price. Our decision not to stock Economy bread reflects a need to recognise the sensitivities of this sector. We provide choice and value for money in the range of bread that we offer in the Province. We sell a standard white sliced loaf which is locally sourced at 35p (on the mainland the same loaf is sold at 39p). All key sliced lines are locally sourced which accounts for 75 per cent of our bread sales in the Province. Northern Ireland bakers sent around £1 million of bread to our mainland stores last year.

Sainsbury's is committed to sourcing the core bread range from the Province and extending the range of regional lines as appropriate. Since 1997 a local baker, Irwins Bakery, has supplied bread and regional products to around 90 of our stores. This company has recently invested £5 million in a new state of the art bakery. Cake products have been the biggest growth area as additional regional suppliers have been taken on board to supply regional customer demand. Howell House bakery has shown significant progress and have returned growth of 250 per cent. Other successful local bakeries have updated their production methods, diversified towards the production of more sophisticated bread products (soda and potato farls) and have successfully exploited the demand for locally sourced products.

4. Sainsbury's Buying Policy

4.1 Seventy five per cent of the food and drink that Sainsbury sells is from the United Kingdom. In value terms, we sell about £120 million of British food and drink each week - over £6 billion per annum. Around 90 per cent of the food and drink that Sainsbury sells that could be sourced from the UK is from the UK.

4.1.1 We have to recognise that after quality, our customers rate choice as their top priority. It is our customers' requirements on varieties for sale that determine what produce and products are made available. Customers not only want products which for climatic reasons are not produced in the United Kingdom such as bananas, avocados, kiwi fruit, and pineapples, but they also want authentic products for example real Parma Ham; products which are seasonally unavailable for example strawberries at Christmas; and products which can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, for example corned beef. The increasing interest in organic produce by consumers and the potential it offered to Northern Ireland farmers were highlighted at 'Northern Ireland, the Organic Opportunity' conference sponsored by Sainsbury's.

4.1.2 Some customers want green beans, soft fruit and new seasons potatoes and lamb, for example, all year round. Either the UK alternative is not of the quality or price that they are looking for or there is no UK alternative. We cannot dictate to our consumers that they must only eat certain foods at certain times of the year. The fact is, consumers can choose to pay the cost of moving these products half way around the world and, from a competitive point of view, if we don't offer them someone else will.

4.1.3 We do work with our suppliers to maximise availability to locally sourced produce in Northern Ireland to avoid importing from the mainland or elsewhere.

4.1.4 We have to import some products which could be produced in Northern Ireland but, for a number of reasons, are not. Organic food is a prime example. We import 70 per cent of the organic foods we sell. We have to do this in order to meet the ever growing demand for organics in the UK. By doing this, however, we are helping to establish the UK market. We hope that UK producers will eventually make this market their own, substituting with local products wherever they can. Imports of food and drink to the country are not new - for many decades we've been importing tea, coffee, cocoa and oranges, for example. Forty years ago we were importing tomatoes and we've been importing apples for a number of decades.

4.1.5 Very rarely we import products that we could buy in the United Kingdom. However, levels of supply have not always been what they are today. Take for example beef. We have sourced beef from Eire for 25 years. We first went to Eire because of shortfalls in the UK. We now have long established relationships with these suppliers and feel it would not make good business sense to drop them.

4.1.6 Lack of availability can be a problem. Recently we wanted to run a promotion for UK sourced Back Bacon but found that our suppliers could not obtain sufficient product to meet the increased customer demand that such a promotion would create. The supply just was not there. Our suppliers shared in our disappointment at not being able to get this promotion off the ground having themselves invested millions of pounds in new plants to process and pack pigmeat. Meat promotions can raise sales by 1000 per cent.

4.1.7 We did run the promotion but using bacon from the UK and other sources and sold 2 million packs in one week. 60 per cent of Sainsbury's bacon is British compared with the national import level of 50 per cent.

4.2 Cheap Food Imports

Regarding prices for UK and imported goods, if there is a difference in the retail selling price of imported and domestically produced foods in our stores, it is because the cost price at which we have bought the products is different. Where costs are lower for imported product it is usually because their producers have the advantage of a better climate and/or lower input costs.

4.2.1 It would not be right for us to charge customers more for an imported product to protect a British one. Interestingly, whilst our customers are concerned about value for money, in a list of their priorities, cheapness was fifteenth.

5. Other Information

5.1 Sainsbury's is very supportive of initiatives designed to facilitate greater access to knowledge and improved understanding between the countryside, farmers, industry and retailers. For over 130 years Sainsbury's has been committed both to supporting farming in the UK and to offering customers safe, high quality and value for money food. We have no intention of changing these long standing pledges and are fully engaged ensuring there is a successful future for farming in Northern Ireland and on the mainland.

5.2 Sainsbury's believe that all parts of the food chain need to work closely together to resolve any perceived differences. Everything Sainsbury's does as a business is driven by customer demand. Our view is that supermarkets are part of the solution to the present crisis in farming and not the cause of it.

5.3 Sainsbury's SAVE Scheme

In addition to our support for farmers we are also committed to the UK's rural communities. Sainsbury's SAVE scheme (Sainsbury's Assisting Village Enterprises) scheme allows for the sale of Sainsbury's branded goods via village stores, thereby helping their viability.

5.4 Community Involvement

Ever since Sainsbury's announced its intention to invest in Northern Ireland the Company began working with community groups and charities large and small. This diversity reflects Sainsbury's strengths, not only as a company but also as a business which has its roots firmly in the community.

5.5 The Company has supported hundreds of charities and community groups around our stores from sponsoring the Belfast Festival at Queen's to funding Worktrain Ballykeel Ltd in Ballymena, a partnership that provides community based education and training in a very deprived area of the town. Other examples of community involvement, both past and present include: Early Bird Montessori Playgroup, Armagh, County Armagh; Northern Ireland Council on Disability, Belfast; St Patrick's Day Parade, Newry, County Down; Londonderry & Limavady Agricultural Show, County Londonderry; Newry Drama Festival; Antrim Games; City of Belfast International Rose Trials; Fire Victim Support Vehicle (across Northern Ireland); Loughgall Football Club.

Appendix H

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: TESCO

8 February 2000

Thank you for your letter of 28 January. I can confirm that representatives from Tesco will attend, as requested, a public meeting of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development on Friday 11 February, at 10.45am.

Please find attached two memoranda, one outlining Tesco procurement policy in general and one dealing specifically with potatoes.

Unfortunately, I shall not be in Northern Ireland on the 11th, but senior colleagues will be attending in my absence. The Tesco representatives at the meeting will be:-

Mr Cliff Kells Northern Ireland Commercial Category Manager
Mrs Gwynneth Cockcroft Davidson Cockcroft, Public Affairs
Mr Peter Timoney Northern Ireland Finance Manager

They will be accompanied by a representative from the Tesco designated potato supplier in Northern Ireland

Mr Angus Wilson Wilson Country Potatoes

Thank you for your helpful notes on the Committee, and its procedures. I am conscious that your original letter emphasised the need to find a way forward for the agricultural industry in Northern Ireland. With this in mind, I should like to offer our co-operation in endeavouring to find practical and sustainable solutions to the problems currently encountered in an increasingly global retail market.

We firmly believe that our position as the number one retailer in the UK has been reached as a result of our complete customer focus. We would be willing to share this consumer understanding, plus relevant research and technical expertise should the Committee feel that this could be of benefit.

We would also be pleased to participate in any discussions pertaining to the development of customer-orientated agricultural strategies and have listed some suggested topics regarding potatoes in our memorandum on the subject.

I trust that the attached submissions, and forthcoming meeting, will be of assistance to the committee in its analysis of the issues, and development of potential solutions.

Yours sincerely

ERIC BOWEN
Director, Tesco, Northern Ireland

Memorandum 1

In general Tesco does not deal directly with farmers, although there are a few exceptions. Our direct contact is normally a supplier in the form of a processor or manufacturer who has negotiated overall terms with us and who, in turn, negotiate individual terms with each farmer. However, our local procurement policy supports hundreds of farmers across the province spanning all of Northern Ireland's agricultural sectors. Suppliers range from small specialist producers right through to large companies most of whom in turn, source their raw materials locally. In addition some of these larger companies are major suppliers to Tesco GB.

Tesco Commitment to the Local Agricultural Sector

1. Our procurement policy is to source locally wherever possible. With the exception of a few speciality products our local sourcing commitment is as follows:

(a) All fresh beef

(b) All fresh lamb

(c) All fresh pork

(d) All fresh and seasonal frozen poultry

(e) All fresh fish

(f) All fresh eggs

(g) All fresh milk (including goats' milk)

(h) All fresh produce subject to season and availability

(i) All fresh bread

2. At present, Tesco spend more than £220 million per annum with local suppliers and is on target to increase this to more than £290 million by the year 2002. Tesco also has an office in Belfast supporting our 7000 local employees. All of these staff are dedicated to supporting local suppliers and producers to meet the needs of our customers.

3. Since our entry into the market, Tesco has invested heavily in store refurbishment, new stores and a new distribution infrastructure which facilitates local procurement of fresh agricultural products.

4. Over the last two years, Tesco technologists and the local Tesco team have forged links with local producers, agricultural colleges and universities with the aim of encouraging product development. We have done this through practical and financial support.

5. The company is part of a trade development group, originally set up by Tesco, consisting of representatives from DANI, IDB, LEDU, CBI and the Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association.

Memorandum 2

The last decade has witnessed fundamental change in the Northern Ireland potato market. Consumer expectations, purchasing habits and consumption patterns all continue to evolve to reflect lifestyle changes. We have sought to address these changes by working in partnership with local suppliers. This has resulted in a clear and ongoing commitment to source as much as we possibly can from indigenous potato producers.

Tesco Commitment to the Local Potato Sector

1. Our supply partner for fresh potatoes is Wilson's Country Potatoes. Since this relationship began, Wilson's Country has grown into a significant business, employing 90 local people.

2. Our policy is to source our fresh potatoes from Northern Ireland. From time to time, however, to meet customers' range and quality expectations, we supplement our local offering with imported varieties, not available locally.

3. Through Wilson's Country, we have worked with local growers to enable them to meet the specifications now demanded by our customers. This is particularly the case with washed potatoes, which now constitute almost two-thirds of our overall fresh potato sales, and is helping local growers to produce to internationally accepted standards.

4. In relation to further-processed potato products, we have developed strong relationships and growing business with key local companies in areas such as crisp and frozen chip manufacture. We do this through the promotion of indigenous local brands and, in the last year, following intensive technical support, the launch of a number of locally-produced Tesco brand products.

5. We have worked in partnership with government departments such as DANI and together with Loughry College have pioneered the development of traditional products, such as champ, into a new and convenient format, in order to meet the changing needs of our customers.

The Way Forward

Tesco are prepared to work with the committee and with the broader agricultural community to provide practical assistance in various key areas, and we would suggest the following as potential topics for discussion:

1. Development of comprehensive market data and local consumer research.

2. Provision of adequate storage to extend the season for locally-produced potatoes.

3. Further development of new products and potato varieties.

4. The development of a local (and international) marketing strategy for Northern Ireland potatoes.

5. Organic potatoes.

Appendix I

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: LIVESTOCK AND MEAT COMMISSION FOR N I

13 January 2000

Agricultural Debt

I refer to your letter of 17 December to our Chairman on the above subject. In responding to your enquiry, we should start by advising that in general our role does not involve us in having a particularly high awareness of the levels of debt within agriculture as a whole. Indeed, with the exception of a few approaches which farmers have made on a private and confidential basis for advice, our awareness of debt levels in the beef and sheepmeat sector is also limited.

It was clear in each of the individual cases where approaches have been made to us that high debt levels had been incurred through the acquisition of agricultural land for beef and sheepmeat production at prices which were clearly not sustainable on a stand-alone basis for such a business. In each case, it seemed unlikely that banks would have granted facilities for such asset purchases without having a lien on other assets of the particular farmer.

Within our particular sectors, while the levels of profitability have been substantially curtailed and the values of livestock have significantly reduced over recent years, it is still generally possible for producers to cover their costs. The transitional period to the current low prices have of course resulted in some individual cases, particularly of beef finishers, where working capital borrowings have not been fully discharged on the disposal of stock. We conclude, however, that within our sector, the most significant reason for debt problems have been where significant asset purchases have been made.

In order to explain the current situation, we have prepared the attached business model which looks at the current year prospects. The model demonstrates that for a typical Northern Ireland specialist beef farm, a small profit can be achieved, but this profit is scarcely adequate to service the investment in "liquid assets" (stock and machinery). The model concludes that the value placed on land for beef and sheepmeat production should not exceed the amount required to be invested to generate an average industrial wage of £16,000 per annum. Since the model concludes that a land area of 120 acres is necessary, it is difficult to see how a land value of more than £1,000 to £1,500 per acre is justified. With land values remaining throughout Northern Ireland at levels of three and four times this value, it is difficult to see how land, buildings or other major asset purchases can be financed.

Throughout this period of declining fortunes for beef and sheepmeat producers, you correctly identify the reluctance which Government has displayed to take up EU aid which might be available. Agrimonetary compensation is the prime example. This reluctance of course is due to the effects which it would have on the UK rebate and on the budget when the UK Exchequer is required to make a direct contribution. Agrimonetary compensation, however, is only a transitional support while currencies are undergoing change relative to one another. While it would be helpful to alleviate debt in some instances, if Government were to be persuaded to retrospectively make these payments, they do not in themselves reverse the conundrum which we face in the future. We have an industry which needs reorganisation to improve competitiveness, and yet asset values as they are at the moment do not allow that reorganisation to take place.

We recognise that the circumstances in other sectors may be different, and indeed in some sectors we understand that current costs are not being covered by market prices.

In writing, we are conscious of the evolving Govermental arrangements within Northern Ireland. We are keen, at an appropriate time, to ensure that the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development has a suitable level of knowledge and understanding of the work of LMC. We would like therefore to extend an invitation to the Committee to visit us at our offices at Lissue House. We would propose to make presentations about the various aspects of our work and focus on some current issues within the beef and sheepmeat sectors. Perhaps you would raise the possibility of such a visit with the Committee and if there is agreement in principle, we can agree a mutually acceptable date.

We hope that these comments are helpful in your consideration of this matter.

Yours sincerely

DAVID RUTLEDGE
Chief Executive
Enc

BUSINESS MODEL - YEAR 2000

Typical Northern Ireland Specialist Beef Farm

50 Suckler Cows @ 1.0 Livestock Units each
50 Calves up to 1 year @ 0.3 Livestock Units each
50 Store Cattle 1-2 years @ 0.6 Livestock Units each
150 Cattle 95 Livestock Units

Income

Sales:

50 cattle per year
Average age at slaughter 2 years
Average carcase weight 300 kg
Average sales price (after expenses) £1.50/kg
Average grad 0+3
£450 per animal x 50 £22,500

Total £22,500

Subsidies:

Suckler Cow Premium
50 @ £115 (assumes Objective 1 supplement) £5,750
50 @ £21 (extensification) £1,050

Beef Premia
25 @ £76 first stage £1,900
25 @ £21 first stage extensification £525
25 @ £76 second stage £1,900
25 @ £21 second stage extensification £525
50 @ £17 Slaughter Premium £850
25 @ £20 Heifer Slaughter Premium £500

Total £13,000

Total Income £35,500

Costs

Cow depreciation £1,250
£25 per cow per year
Concentrates
£50 per head for cow + calf + store £2,250
Veterinary/Medicines
£5 per animal per year £750
AI Fees
50 @ £15 £750
Building Depreciation/Repairs
£50,000 @ 2% depreciation + 1% maintenance £1,500
Machinery Depreciation/Maintenance
£50,000 @ 8% depreciation + 2% maintenance £5,000
Labour
Average NI industrial wage £16,000
Fertiliser
120 acres @ 150kg/acre @ £110/tonne £2,000
Fuel, Electricity, Telephone £1,000

£30,500

Profit (Return on Assets)

Income £35,500
Costs £30,500

Profit £5,000

Asset Values

Assume asset values as follows:

Stock

50 cows @ £400 £20,000
50 calves @ £200 £10,000
50 stores @ £300 £15,000

£45,000

Suckler Cow Quota
50 @ £250 £12,000

Machinery £50,000

Total Non-Land Assets £107,500

Even to invest these "liquid assets" at current rates of just over 5% this would yield profits of c. £5,375 as against the profit of £5,000 shown above.

What is value of land?

Conclusions:

1. To collect extensification premia as set out in the model, the minimum area of land required is calculated as:-

2 livestock units per hectare

95 livestock units total

47.5 hectares required
(approx. 120 acres @ 2.47 acres = 1 hectare)

2. Land used for beef production has a value equivalent only to the investment necessary to generate average industrial wage of £16,000 per annum. This realistically cannot be more than £1,000-£1,500 per acre. Even assuming that, no other job is available which is a suitable match for the skills of the beef farmer.

Appendix J

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND MEAT EXPORTERS' ASSOCIATION

5 January 2000

You wrote to our Chairman, Mr Colin Duffy on 17th December 1999, regarding the inquiry into the debt in the agricultural and fisheries sectors in NI. I am responding to your letter on behalf of Mr Duffy and the NI Meat Exporters' Association.

1. BACKGROUND INFORMATION

The membership of the NI Meat Exporters' Association is made up of the majority of the EC Export approved beef and lamb slaughtering and processing companies in Northern Ireland.

2. DEBT INQUIRY

While it is the brief of your committee to ascertain the level and extent of debt in the Agriculture and Fisheries sectors, that is not a subject which this Association feels competent to discuss. Our remarks will therefore be confined to pointers for the future which we believe will contribute to a strong rural economy and ensure a viable rural programme and community life.

3. DEBT RELIEF

This Association believes that now is the time for major changes to take place in Agriculture to safeguard the rural community life. Over the past three years we have seen the Pig Industry almost wiped out. This has not just been a NI problem, in fact it is a world-wide problem with over production in every country in the world. In the light of this it is not terribly sensible to give producers false hopes of better things to come when the problem exists to the magnitude it does and on such a world wide scale. Local consumers may talk of supporting home produce but when it comes to value for money that philosophy tends to be forgotten.

The beef industry is not all that different. Over 70 pieces of legislation on top of what was there before, have been introduced to the processing sector since 1996 and all of them have added cost upon cost to the industry, leaving NI one of the most uncompetitive regions of Europe. The fact that so much red tape surrounds any attempt to begin to market our way out of the situation is strangling the industry from its full export development potential. Currently less than 50% of cattle in NI have export status due to documentation and administrative problems on farms. This is a very poor image of our quality standards and our ability to demonstrate to consumers a high degree of management. It does nothing to instil confidence in those quality niche markets that we once enjoyed prior to BSE. No matter how good we think we are we need to set our sights much higher. Like every other part of the food industry farmers must accept that more accurate paperwork and maintenance of records is a necessary part of any future development of the food industry.

In recent years in the sheep sector over 50% of the annual lamb crop is smuggled to the ROI leaving processors here in a weak development position to add value and thus improve returns to farmers. In 1999 around 580,000 lambs were processed in NI out of an annual crop of around 1.5 million. The loss of levy revenue to LMC on these lambs is also a major financial problem, money which is needed by the LMC for promotional activity in respect of the sheep sector.

4. FUTURE STRATEGIES

Any future strategies to improve the situation for producers and processors must take account of the demands of the consumer whether we like it or not. There is little point in producing anything that has to be sold at a discount price just to get rid of it. All future production should be linked to quality market criteria so that the highest prices can be achieved for the maximum amount of product rather than 50% of the right product subsidising 50% of what somebody just wants to produce. For instance last year between April and September 37,700 cattle were classified in the undesirable grades for any quality specification and had to be simply traded at discount prices to find an outlet for them. While this is mainly a breed problem a further 9,400 cattle in the same period were produced at fat class 4H or 5 totally outside any quality specification and purely as a result of farm management. These facts have to be faced and action proportionate to the problem taken to improve the quality of NI production.

5. QUALITY DEMANDS

Traceability, Farm Quality Assurance, Livestock Chain Management, Farm Auditing and the Red Meat Strategy, are all part of the future food production systems and there needs to be a much more pro-active attitude on behalf of everyone to secure our own future. It may not be attractive and it may be more bothersome, but if we cannot deliver what the consumer wants then there is no point in crying for Government help. It is absolutely essential that all farmers take seriously the demands being forced upon the industry, no matter how unpalatable, to ensure that NI can have the edge in the food industry of the future. It is either that or close the door. It is no longer adequate to adopt the attitude of "I'll do it my way".

6. THE CASUALTY FACTOR

Like New Zealand and every other Agricultural country in the world that has been forced to grapple with the same problems, it has to be accepted that those who choose to ignore the demands of the consumer are writing their own exit strategy from the industry. There will be casualties but it will be confined to those who do not want to keep abreast of an efficient 21st century food production industry. It is therefore our opinion that the Government should introduce a forceful rural education programme urging everyone in the rural areas to meet the challenges of the future and rise to the demands and standards being made by those who ultimately buy their produce.

7. THE SUCCESS FACTOR

No-one has any desire to see the demise of the rural hinterland and therefore the proper management and development must be in place so that production can be adjusted to meet the current demands of quality and consistency. Farming structures probably need to change to meet the demands of the future and we believe that there is a viable future for those who decide they want to be part of it. It is our opinion too that this is the best way to insure against future debt in this sector. We accept that some of these points may be far reaching but we also believe that we do not do anyone any favours by just moving from one crisis to another. There needs to be planned development based on quality production to ensure a sustainable rural future. Production is currently fragmented and there is little by way of co-operative production and marketing. There needs to be major changes in this area so that input costs can be reduced further still to the benefit of everyone.

While these points may on the face of it seem to be a bit radical and far reaching nevertheless we believe that there has to be radical changes for everyone if we are to establish a future for NI Agriculture.

Yours sincerely

T C MATHERS

Appendix K

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: ULSTER AGRICULTURAL ORGANISATION SOCIETY LTD

14th March 2000

Thank you for sending me the terms of reference for the enquiry by the committee.

As discussed on the telephone they are probably not relevant to our Biogas project. However I do believe that we can respond to the final term of reference by outlining positive steps that have been and can be taken by producers to help alleviate the situation. It will not happen, though, without commitment and support.

Three quotations come to mind,

1890 Horace Plunkett 'Co-operatives are the children of distress'

1962 President J F Kennedy 'Farmers are the only businessmen who buy retail and sell wholesale'

1990 UAOS Conference 'Self help or self destruct'

We would be delighted to make a short presentation outlining the positive contribution marketing and purchasing co-operatives have made and can make to:

(a) the farm income;

(b) off farm employment opportunities;

(c) supply chain development.

This presentation could be combined with the one on biogas.

We look forward to the reconvening of the committee and the opportunity to put forward positive and innovative ideas.

Yours sincerely

Ian Murray
Chief Executive
UAOS LTD

Appendix L

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND POULTRY FEDERATION

13 January 2000

Re: Enquiry into Debt in Agriculture

You have written individually to several of our members within the poultry meat sector. As the representative body of our industry we have been asked to formulate a common response. Individual members of our association may also wish to highlight issues separately. We would wish to make the following points.

  • The levels of loss which have been sustained in the poultry meat sector over the last 2-3 years are as serious as the much publicised situation within the pig sector. The sole reason that this has not received the same publicity is that the losses have been carried by the processing companies. Producers have been sheltered from the hardship of the market place under the terms of their producer contracts with processors. However the current situation is unsustainable. If the current level of losses continue and any of the three larger companies were to go out of business, the consequences will be sudden and dramatic. The processing sector employs over 5000 people directly. In addition over 1000 farms derive some or all of their income from production of meat or breeding birds. These farms tend to be small family enterprises which would have little in the way of alternatives should their poultry unit fail; especially so with agriculture in such a depressed state.
  • It must be stressed that the above scenario is not just industry scare-mongering. Recently there have been several major failures in the UK broiler sector (eg Marshall Food Group, Penwoods and Pershaws).
  • Our best estimate of the level of indebtedness of poultry meat producers to cover bank borrowing and outstanding feed, day-olds and other miscellaneous items is £40m/£50m.
  • Our best intelligence reports confirm that the Northern Ireland Poultry Meat industry is losing approximately £12m per annum.
  • We understand the indebtedness of egg producers is in the region of £15m/£20m.
  • The industry has been placed in this unprofitable situation through no fault of its own. In terms of physical efficiency, production is amongst the most efficient in the world. For example, the Northern Ireland farmer uses some 14% less feed/kg of meat produced than in the USA (source Agristats). The problems in our industry have been brought about by the following:

1. Strength of Sterling:

As with many sectors of agriculture the strong pound has resulted in a flood of imported European and third world product entering the UK at prices below local production costs. Such imports now represent nearly 40% of UK poultry meat consumption (source BPMF) compared with the situation a few years ago where an exportable surplus was produced. Indeed the processors in Northern Ireland have been obliged to use a significant amount of imported product for further processing, without which their financial problems would be much worse. Local production levels have been maintained only by virtue of the expanding overall market, subsidy of farmers by the processors and some success in developing niche markets for speciality type products such as free range and organic.

2. Feed Costs:

Northern Ireland has long suffered from a relatively higher feed cost. This stems from transport costs in importing raw materials and higher energy cost in the manufacture and distribution of feed. It is estimated that these additional costs amount to some £15/tonne compared with GB or mainland Europe. For many years the industry has managed to absorb this premium through extra efficiency and production advantages based on the high health status of its stock. However, it has now an additional cost burden which uniquely penalises the Northern Ireland industry.

3. Additional Costs:

The industry has been burdened with a plethora of additional costs in recent years which are damaging to our industry in a market where we compete with imported product, especially from non European sources, which does not have to incur these costs. Examples include the ban on the use of meat and bone meal, on the use of antibiotic growth promoters and legislation relating to animal welfare, traceability and environmental protection. The industry does not disagree with the need for some of these measures, especially where they impact on food safety, but we find it iniquitous that imported products are able to evade the need to comply with these requirements and the on costs stemming from them.

We hope we have made clear that a very real threat to the continued existence, at the very least, of the primary production sector of the Northern Ireland poultry industry exists. Such a loss would deal a savage blow to the local economy. The important role of the small family farm which our industry supports should not be underestimated. It both assists in maintaining a viable rural economy and sustaining a strongly work focused labour force which is also available to other local industries.

We request that the Assembly should urgently consider the introduction of the following measures:

1. Compensation mechanism for currency:

The industry recognises that assistance to producers has been made in an attempt to offset the current crisis in agriculture under Commission Regulation (EC) No2808/98. These forms of agrimonetary compensation to producers are not directly available to the intensive sector. Additionally we do not see the current remedies as being adequate either in scale or nature to redress the problem. In the past the financial traumas affecting trade in the food industry arising from movements in currency values have been addressed by a system of "Monetary Compensatory Amounts" (MCA's). This system was developed by the commission in the 1970's under Regulation EC 974/71. The aim of this regulation was to "remove any advantage or disadvantage to traders which can result purely from currency changes, and to act as a balancing factor in trade between countries with different currency values". We argue that the current situation is so grave that the application of a scheme along these lines, which directly relates to trade, rather than to producers is urgently required.

2. Feed Price Allowance:

We suggest a two stage programme in this respect.

  • Firstly a scheme aimed at overcoming the differentiation between GB and NI perhaps via creating intervention storage within Northern Ireland or allowing imports of third country grains at tariffs which result in Northern Ireland prices replicating average UK prices - (this type of scheme is already in operation in Spain and Portugal and details are attached as Annex 1).
  • In the medium term we should seek to replace direct price support for cereals with a support system for farmers which is not based on a guaranteed price for grain. This would allow grain prices to fall to world market prices and thus allow our poultry farmers to fully exploit their competitive advantage in terms of production efficiency.

It seems anomalous that the end product of the intensive livestock production chain exists in a situation where it is exposed to world-wide competition, whereas an intermediary in this chain ie, the cereal producer, enjoys the luxury of a guaranteed price for his product.

3. Interest relief scheme:

We request that grant aid towards interest payments is made available to the poultry industry. We understand that such aid is under serious consideration for pig producers in the Republic of Ireland and may also become available in Northern Ireland.

4. Support for development:

We request an increase in the allocation of funding towards assistance into capital expenditure, research and development and training for companies involved in the sector. This will help the industry maintain its position as a leader in innovation and product and process development.

The Northern Ireland Poultry Industry is highly integrated and is recognised world wide to be an extremely efficient industry.

Unlike many parts of the world practically all production is carried out by bona-fide farmers.

The nature and scale of the problem is such that political input will be required to redress the problem.

In the light of these extreme problems we request a meeting with the Chairman or with the Agricultural Committee as soon as possible to discuss these matters further.

Yours sincerely

NORTHERN IRELAND POULTRY FEDERATION

W P O'Kane OBE
Chairman
Enc.
1. Summary.
2. Annex 1 Details of "Abamiento System"

NORTHERN IRELAND POULTRY FEDERATION

Submission by Northern Ireland Poultry Federation to
Committee for Agriculture and rural development

Re: Enquiry into Debt in Agriculture

SUMMARY

The poultry industry is the largest employer in the Northern Ireland food sector. The sector has been unprofitable for several years.

The reason that this has not been highlighted is that farmers contracted to the industry have been supported by the processing companies.

With a level of loss now estimated at over £12m/annum, the situation is reaching crisis point.

The reasons for these losses are detailed.

Suggestions for remedial measures are also outlined.

Annex 1

Details of "Abamiento" system for maize/corn to Spain and Portugal

  • This scheme is operated by the EU and grants the above countries the right to import non EU grain.
  • Normally such imports incur a tariff which would result in the net price to the end user being much higher and so uncompetitive with grain of EU origin.
  • In this case a concession allows import of a fixed quota (currently 2.2 million tonnes/year) at a much reduced tariff.
  • The tariff is set so that the imported grain is sold at an identical price to that prevailing in Spain or Portugal at that time.
  • Thus the price paid to local producers is not disrupted but the country is not disadvantaged by having to use more expensive imported grain.
  • It is our understanding that had NI had direct representation at Brussels available in the past, then an equivalent scheme to that in Spain and Portugal would have been open to NI.

Appendix M

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND GRAIN TRADE ASSOCIATION

January 2000

Following a number of lengthy reports NIGTA wishes to respond to the single question of examining alternative proposals for addressing problem of debt.

All other issues have been addressed in the past and NIGTA would suggest that the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is best placed to produce any verifiable statistical information.

NIGTA would also contend that they are not aware of any initiatives that are being taken by the Department to alleviate debt.

NIGTA would suggest that urgent short-term measures are desperately needed to allow enough time to address the longer-term problems facing the industry.

Short-term measures should be focused on reducing the burden of debt and its ancillary costs.

NIGTA would seek a change in attitude whereby DARD should continually utilise all resources to find solutions rather than emphasise obstacles.

NIGTA would request the Minister and all members of Government utilise ingenuity in their approach to problem solving.

As secondary bankers to agriculture NIGTA members are keen to play a full role in any discussions to alleviate debt believing that there is an opportunity to reduce farm input costs further if the debt burden can be realigned.

Short term proposals

NIGTA contends that the opportunity exists to seek special terms for Northern Ireland to assist the Peace Process, but it also contends that opportunity exists to utilise self-help to reduce the problems associated with the debt burden. Immediate consideration should be given to the following:

(1) Emergency assistance for the pig industry to alleviate the losses incurred as a direct result of the fire at Lovell and Christmas. Losses of £10 million were directly attributed to the fire and were over and above the losses incurred as a result of a falling market. This figure is established by measuring the normal differential of Northern Ireland versus UK prior to the fire against the additional differential following the fire. NIGTA would contend that the European Union should recognise the benefit of backing this proposal, as close association with the Republic of Ireland on this issue would demonstrate that the Peace Process could bring advantages.

The current DARD response is that the Welfare Scheme addressed this issue, that is not the case as it only addressed the Welfare problem on farm, and it was never anticipated that the losses directly because of the fire would reach £10 million.

(2) Maximum effort by all Government departments and the IDB in particular to find a way of offering direct assistance to the poultry processors to help them retain their Northern Ireland production base.

(3) To seek a regional status to allow Monetary Compensation to be paid in Northern Ireland.

(4) To pursue the proposal of an interest relief package for Northern Ireland farmers.

(5) To immediately utilise the Ministerial position to bring about round table discussions of influential people that could materially assist the farming industry.

(6) To introduce and support an influential body based on the outline of An Bord Bia.

Longer term

To develop relations with the 'achiever' Nations in Europe to bring the Northern Ireland dimension into focus.

To develop dialogue that enhances the principals of fair-trading within the European agricultural policy.

To develop dialogue with other nations to seek support to reduce the price of grain to world prices, thus allowing the competitive production of meat products within Europe.

Appendix N

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND GRAIN TRADE ASSOCIATION

June 2000

Views on integration/re-organisation of the agricultural industry

The integration and partnerships within the Poultry sector have addressed the issue of minimising cost. We would recognise that integration and/or partnerships can help sustain businesses through the difficult times.

A facilitator with a 'can do' philosophy within the Government and Department of Agriculture and Rural Development could play a leading role in bringing food industry players together for the common good.

Financial support should be sought to encourage integration.

What Government and Farmers can do to make the industry more competitive

Northern Ireland faces, currency, geographical and input cost disadvantages.

While losing money, the Poultry sector has faced these problems without stopping their technical advance and product innovation.

(A) The single biggest issue facing the industry is currency strength with particular reference to Northern Ireland, because of the land border with the Republic of Ireland. Mechanisms already exist within an EC context (monetary compensation) and where mechanisms do not exist they could be sought by government eg the Republic of Ireland's scheme in 1983 which was geared towards exporting companies.

(B) The Government should appoint a facilitator with appropriate resources to seek out opportunities and bring them to the support of the farming industry. The specialist knowledge held within DARD should be utilised as a positive force rather than the negative force that we have seen in the past. Opportunities for co-operation with other member States will occur and a facilitator working closely with the agricultural industry should be tasked to find a way through the difficulties that will also arise.

The agricultural industry needs to know that they have access to a positive thinking office within DARD. The most recent example of what might have been achieved by this approach is demonstrated by the £1m debt plan to assist the pig producers in the ROI, who were affected by the Lovell and Christmas fire.

(C) The farming sector and all manufacturing industries within Northern Ireland suffer from the high cost of electricity.

We would propose that Northern Ireland should be made a special case when applying the Climate Change Levy. The level set for Northern Ireland should be reduced to reflect the premium already being paid in Northern Ireland.

(D) The haulage and fuel industry is being decimated by the difference in fuel prices across our land border and this is having a major knock-on effect to the agricultural industry.

We would propose that Northern Ireland should seek a dispensation on diesel and road tax, for use in Northern Ireland, to allow prices to equate to ROI prices.

(E) The intensive sector in Northern Ireland face input costs of between 5% and 10% higher than GB, they face input costs of between 15% and 20% higher than the USA.

The grain regime in the EU has an intervention base price that keeps the price of grain high to support grain farmers and the EU uses restitutions to allow the export of that grain at World prices. The result is that the livestock industry pays an inflated price for its raw material and gets no assistance on exports or protection on competing imports.

In the USA the grain farmer gets world price plus a guarantee up to a minimum price. The livestock industry, get grain at world price cheapening their produce and assisting their export potential.

The Government should seek to match this system allowing the livestock producers an even playing field in a bid to export value added product.

Failure to match the American system will result in the collapse of our intensive sectors in the longer term.

(F) A long term Government Loan Scheme which would offer low interest rates and an opportunity for farmers to re-structure their business should be considered.

(G) The other issue which would make a difference would be the effective labelling of food products as having been produced in the UK (primary production). Existing proposals have been watered down due primarily to supermarket pressure. The Food Standards Agency should help educate the consumer regarding countries where products are sourced and the production methods in those areas.

The quality of produce being produced is it competitive?

Quality produce is being sold to the buyer and is therefore competitive, however the producer may be making a loss to achieve the sale.

Poultry imports are achievable at a significant discount over home produced products, and may not have been produced to the same standards as this country.

Many factors mitigate against a GB producer and additional costs burden a NI producer. Some of the added costs are Government imposed, the Government should pay compensation when they exceed EU standards.

Across a range of parameters from welfare standards (pig industry) to bacteriological status of product (poultry) to meat quality (beef and BSE status) the produce of the province is of an extremely high standard. NI cannot compete with commodity prices, only niche markets are sustainable for home-grown produce.

Where the processor fits into the price gap from the farm gate to the consumer

While the food retail index has followed inflation over the last decade, farm incomes and processor incomes have seen a major decline.

The evidence suggests that processors are losing money or not making an acceptable return. This is demonstrated by losses within the major processors in Northern Ireland and the knowledge that major PLC processors such as Glanbia, Kerry, Malton would welcome discussion with any concern interested in stepping into processing.

The contribution Co-operatives can make to the industry

Partnerships and integration within businesses can offer efficiency, however co-operatives agenda does not always equal efficiency.

Appendix O

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: WILSON'S COUNTRY LTD

23 February 2000

Please find below information required by the Committee following the proceedings on Friday, 11th February 2000.

POTATOES SOURCED BY WILSON'S COUNTRY

August 98 - July 99

 

NI

ROI

GB

GB M.PIPER

CYPRUS

TOTAL

%

71

11

5

11

2

 

August 99 - July 00 (estimated sales)

%

73

10

5

10

2

 

NOTES:

1. Product from ROI is used to introduce the early new set-skin season and bridge the gap between the local old season and new season.

2. Maris Piper is difficult to grow in NI due to common scab and slug susceptibility, yet it is recognised by consumers as a premium tasting potato.

3. Cyprus potatoes are offered to consumers as a new potato before our local new potatoes are in season.

4. 5% GB product is imported to supplement our local crop.

5. As a company, we are actively involved in working with growers to develop local growing of Maris Piper and extending our local season, hence the increase in NI % for this season.

Regards.

Angus Wilson

Managing Director

List of Other Relevant Papers

List of Other Relevant Papers

Ulster Farmers' Union - Paper on issues to be addressed in the local agri-food supply chain

Assembly Research and Library Services - Paper on Farmgate and Retail Prices

Competition Commission's Supermarkets Inquiry - Issues Statement

ULSTER FARMERS' UNION
ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED IN THE LOCAL AGRI-FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN

The Ulster Farmers' Union would highlight the following key issues which farmers feel need to be addressed in the local agri-food supply chain.

  • Transparency

Farmers are greatly concerned at the huge mark up between farmgate and retail prices for many commodities. For example top grade beef cattle are valued at c. 174p/Kg. In the supermarket sirloin steak retails at c. £11.80/Kg. Pig producers receive about c. 68p/Kg for their pigs. Pork fillet retails at c. £8.00/Kg. More transparency is needed in the Agri-food chain to ensure fair pricing structures are in place.

  • Labelling

Proper labelling of Northern Ireland produce is crucial. The retail sector has not properly addressed this issue. Primary produce can be imported to NI, processed and labelled as "sourced in Northern Ireland". The local pig industry has suffered particularly severely with exceptionally high welfare standards not being promoted. What plans have retailers to clarify labelling procedures?

  • Commitment

The current strength of sterling has seen more and more produce imported to Northern Ireland. Are retailers committed to Northern Ireland suppliers and the quality they can provide, or is price the key factor? Can they confirm that the quality and welfare standards of imported product matches local produce?

  • Cost

Costs of production for farmers in Northern Ireland are extremely high. Compliance to a whole range of quality assurance schemes has heaped extra cost on producers with little marketing advantage apparent and certainly no premium. Currently a farmer in Northern Ireland could spend over £600.00 registering with Quality Assurance Schemes. What future co-ordination can be introduced to maximise the benefit of these schemes and minimise the administration/cost/auditing involved?

  • Supply chain management

Trust and confidence is at a very low ebb among producers in many commodities. What plans have retailers to instigate proper supply chain management and build up a more positive relationship with the primary producer?

  • Regional Policy

We believe decisions taken by central policy makers, based in GB, do not always reflect the situation "on the ground" in Northern Ireland. We believe the major supermarket multiples should adopt a regional policy to better reflect market conditions in the Province.

  • Promotions

We are very concerned that the cost of ad hoc promotions, particularly for fresh produce, appears to be passed back to the producer. We feel this is an unacceptable situation. Local farmers have invested heavily to meet the high standards demanded by the major multiples. Margins are now being squeezed to unsustainable levels and the impact of promotions exacerbates the problem.

ASSEMBLY RESEARCH AND LIBRARY SERVICES
FARMGATE AND RETAIL PRICES

11 January 2000

Martin Wilson

Clerk of Agriculture & Rural Development Committee

Re: Farmgate and Retail Prices

The attached tables (from an August 1999 House of Commons Research Paper) compare changes in agricultural producer prices between 1995 and 1998 with changes in retail prices over the same period. Both tables are in index form (with 1995, as the base year, set at 100).

While it is difficult to match the different items in the tables exactly, it is clear from the data that farmgate prices in the UK have fallen significantly while retail prices have generally increased. In the one area where there was a major fall in retail prices - unprocessed potatoes (-27%) - there is notably a much larger fall in the corresponding producer price - root crops (-39%). It seems that the fall in prices paid to farmers is not reflected by the prices that consumers pay in the shops.

Producer prices for Northern Ireland (see attached Table 2.8)have suffered an even greater overall fall - 27% between 1995 and 1998 compared with a 22% fall in UK producer prices over the period. As UK retail prices also apply to Northern Ireland this would suggests that the disparity between farmgate and retail prices is greater in Northern Ireland.

I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if you require any further information.

RESEARCH PAPER 99/77

Producer prices have in most cases fallen since 1995;

Index of Producer Prices of Agricultural Products (UK)
(API) 1995=100

 

1995

1996

1997

1998

change 95-98

Cereals

Root crops

Fresh fruit

Fresh vegetables

Seeds

Flowers and plants

Other crop products

Crop products

Animals (for slaughter and export)

Milk

Eggs

Animals & animal products

Total of all products

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

101.6

59.3

112.2

99.2

85.6

106.9

105.7

92.4

102.5

100.4

119.6

102.4

98.5

81.4

39.7

102.6

87.1

64.3

107.1

95.3

76.6

90.7

88.6

102.6

90.3

85.1

70.5

60.7

102.9

96.7

62.5

101.7

94.5

78.6

75.2

77.6

94.4

77.0

77.7

-29%

-39%

3%

-3%

-37%

2%

-6%

-21%

-25%

-22%

-6%

-23%

-22%

Average annual figures for calendar year
Source: MAFF, 16 April 1999 at website wee.maff.gov.uk

While retail prices have remained steady;

Retail food prices (UK)
RPI Component 1995=100

 

1995

1996

1997

1998

change 95-98

Bread

Cereals

Biscuits & cakes

Beef

Home-killed lamb

Pork

Bacon

Poultry

Butter

Cheese

Eggs

Fresh milk

Unprocessed potatoes

Fresh Vegetables

Fresh fruit

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

1001.8

100.9

103.7

101

114.2

120.7

113.3

105.7

108.5

105.8

110

101.6

78.9

98.3

12.5

100.4

100.9

104.9

98.8

113.1

117.6

117.6

106

109

108.7

110

101.6

54.9

91.2

105

99.3

101

106

96.9

105

104.4

109.2

104.7

110.7

104.7

109

101.7

73.1

94.9

106.7

-1%

1%

6%

-3%

5%

4%

9%

5%

11%

5%

9%

2%

-27%

-5%

7%

Source: ONS Database (series DOAA, DOAB, DOAC,DOAD, DOAF,

DOAG, DOAH, DAOI, DOAM, DOAO, DOAP, DOAQ, DOAY, DOBA, DOBC)

It is difficult to match exactly commodity to product, but in general, while retail food prices for bread, milk, pork, lamb, cereals and even beef have changed relatively slightly and in most cases risen from 1995 to 1998, producer prices for certain commodities are showing significant falls. Producer milk prices have fallen by about animals for slaughter or export by around a quarter, cereals are down by 29% and root crops by 39%.

Table 2.7 Average producer prices1 of agricultural products

£ per unit

 

Unit

1994

1995

1996

1997

1998

(Provisional)

Finished steers, heifers and young bulls2,3

head

698

718

615

509

418

Finished steers, heifers and young bulls2,3

kg dwt

2.23

2.22

1.89

1.61

1.37

Calves slaughtered or exported2

head

159

154

89

69

62

Culled cows and bulls3

head

490

518

442

333

257

Culled cows and bulls3

kg dwt

1.75

1.77

1.62

1.33

1.08

Store cattle exported

head

510

528

456

417

327

Finished sheep and lambs

head

43.76

42.75

53.52

50.25

38.77

Finished sheep and lambs

kg dwt

2.15

2.04

2.56

2.45

1.96

Finished clean pigs4

head

65.79

78.92

95.27

73.75

50.60

Finished clean pigs4

kg dwt

0.95

95.27

1.31

1.03

0.71

Culled sows and boars

head

98

119

130

100

49

Milk5

litre

0.212

0.254

0.240

0.206

0.193

Eggs for consumption

dozen

0.395

0.397

0.476

0.349

0.295

Broilers

kg lwt

0.548

0.549

0.585

0.574

0.530

Potatoes:
Ware maincrop6
Seed


tonne
tonne


119
136


173
212


76
158


63
69


110
105

Barley

tonne

112

119

116

90

84

Wheat

tonne

114

124

125

96

88

Mushrooms

tonne

1,190

1,210

1,165

1,146

1,150

Apples

tonne

119

138

158

214

275

1. After deduction of marketing charges, commissions and levies, where applicable.

2. Includes calves processed under the Calf Processing Aid Scheme.

3. Includes cattle slaughtered under the Over Thirty Months Scheme.

4. Includes pigs slaughtered under the 1998 Pig Welfare Slaughter Scheme.

5. Before deduction of superlevy, if applicable.

6. Does not include early potatoes. Therefore, the price differs from that quoted in Table 2.26.

 

Table 2.8 Indices of producer prices

Indices: 1995 = 100

 

Weights2

1994

1995

1996

1997

1998
(Provisional)

Finished steers and heifers3

247

100

100

85

73

62

Culled cows and bulls3

42

99

100

92

75

61

Store cattle exported

4

97

100

86

79

62

Finished sheep and lambs

56

105

100

125

120

96

Finished clean pigs

91

86

100

118

93

64

Culled sows and boars

2

83

100

107

80

41

Milk

307

83

100

95

81

76

Eggs for consumption

25

99

100

20

88

74

Broilers

60

100

100

107

105

97

Potatoes:
Ware maincrop
Seed


25
11


69
64


100
100


44
74


3
33


6
50

Barley

23

94

100

98

76

70

Wheat

7

92

100

101

78

71

Mushrooms

25

98

100

96

95

95

Apples

5

86

100

115

155

200

Total products index2

932

92

100

96

83

73

1. The indices relate to prices from which marketing expenses have been deducted.

2. The total products index is calculated by taking into account the significance of each item in the base period (1995). This is shown in the column of weights. Since only the main items of output are included, the total of their weights does not cover items such as production grants, compensation payments and gross fixed capital formation, it should not be regarded as a 'deflator' to be used in estimating the volume of output. (A series giving the volume of gross output is given in Table 2.3.)

3. Includes cattle slaughtered under the Over Thirty Months Scheme.

COMPETITION COMMISSION
SUPPLY OF GROCERIES FROM MULTIPLE STORES MONOPOLY INQUIRY
Issues Statement

The Competition Commission has written to 24 companies in connection with its inquiry into supermarkets, describing the progress made so far, identifying the issues which it has been examining and highlighting those which it wishes to raise with some of the companies concerned (see paragraph 12) at a series of hearings during March.

In accordance with recent practice the Commission is publishing this statement summarizing the main points raised with the companies, in order that those interested may give us their views. In view of the wide public interest in the inquiry and the uncertainty which it has generated, this statement indicates the Commission's current priorities in the inquiry.

This is, however, an interim stage in the investigation and no conclusions have as yet been reached on any matter.

The Commission has received over 200 submissions, held 35 hearings with interested parties mainly in London but also in Belfast and Birmingham; and obtained questionnaire response data from consumers, all the main grocery retailers, nearly 400 suppliers of groceries to supermarkets and 50 local authorities. It has analysed a range of critical aspects including price levels, profitability and efficiency; price competition locally and nationally; international comparisons of prices and profitability; relationships with suppliers; transmission of price changes from suppliers through to consumers, acquisition of land for supermarkets and the impact of the planning regime in the UK. The Commission has also looked at a number of other social and environment issues relating to the retailing of groceries.

Jurisdiction

The Commission has provisionally found that all the companies to whom it has written belong to one or both of two complex monopoly groups for the purposes of the Fair Trading Act 1973, in relation to the supply of groceries in the UK by supermarkets (paragraph 12 identifies these companies). One complex monopoly derives from the pricing of groceries sold by supermarkets to consumers and the other from the relationship between supermarkets and their suppliers. These findings are provisional (the companies are being invited to comment on them) and carry no implications as to whether any of the companies is operating against the public interest.

Public interest considerations

Where the Commission concludes that a complex monopoly exists, it is required to decide whether any matter arising from its investigation operates against the public interest. Below are set out the matters the Commission will wish to raise with the companies before reaching its conclusions.

1. Market definition

The Commission is primarily interested in the so-called 'one-stop shop' pattern of grocery shopping in which consumers can buy most or all of their weekly grocery requirements in a single visit to a supermarket. In this context, its provisional view is that the market comprises a large number of local catchment areas within which consumers can reach a supermarket in a relatively short period of time. However, the Commission will also wish to explore the significance of regional or national market shares of the companies concerned; and whether Northern Ireland constitutes a separate market.

2. Company profitability

The Commission has examined a range of different measures of supermarkets' overall profitability based on margins, returns on capital, and cash flow analysis, and trends in them. As appropriate, it has compared these to companies' cost of capital and returns in supermarkets in other countries. Its initial view is that, while in some respects overall profitability performance has been quite strong, there is at most only limited evidence of excessive profitability, as measured, being achieved. The Commission will, however, seek further clarification at the hearings.

3. Prices

Evidence obtained by the Commission suggests that the trend of grocery prices in recent years, while upwards, has been significantly below that for prices generally in the UK, leading to a reduction in the price of groceries in real terms. Other evidence still under consideration suggests that the trend has also been lower than for grocery prices in some comparable European countries. A detailed survey of the prices of a wide range of grocery products in several thousand stores in the UK and certain other European countries is being conducted, the results of which will in due course be submitted to the companies for comment. The Commission is also looking at data indicating how individual supermarkets' prices compare to each other.

4. Consumer satisfaction

The Commission has reviewed a number of surveys of consumers' views of supermarkets. In addition, in order to obtain an independent view and to cover certain gaps in the evidence already available, the Commission has carried out its own detailed survey. This has been used to provide insights into a number of the issues described below, but the overall picture which these surveys provide appears generally to be one of high levels of consumer satisfaction with the performance of supermarkets in the UK.

Main points for the hearings

Within this context, the Commission has identified a number of points which it wishes to raise with supermarkets. These are:

5. Market power

The Commission wishes to raise with the companies whether individual supermarkets have some local market power in catchment areas where there are few or even no competing supermarket stores. Linked to this is the question referred to in paragraph 6(a) below, whether the extent of local market competition affects the prices which consumers pay.

6. Price competition

Surveys indicate that consumers have regard to range, quality, service and price when buying groceries. It is primarily matters relating to pricing which the Commission wishes to raise, including:

a. whether price competition might be excessively concentrated on a relatively small number of frequently purchased items; and at stores which face the most local competition;

b. whether price changes by suppliers have been rapidly and fully passed through to consumers; and

c. whether the pattern of prices and margins across different types of product, including branded and own label products, is related to costs to the extent that would be expected in a fully competitive market. This would include products persistently sold at a loss, which may benefit consumers in the short term but which may distort competition and consumer choice, and may adversely affect the supply or availability of such products in the longer term.

7. Costs and efficiency

The Commission is also considering the cost structure and efficiency of supermarkets. Three issues which arise from this are:

a. Whether some supermarkets have been able to maintain too high a level of costs, with consumers paying more than would otherwise be the case.

b. The extent of economies of scale in the industry, at store level but more particularly at regional and national level, and what impact this has on prices and competition.

c. Whether some forms of competition between supermarkets, primarily for sites and in provision of any facilities which do not cover their costs, has unduly raised prices to consumers.

8. Land and location issues

The Commission has been looking at prices paid for land acquired for supermarket development and at prices paid for land acquired for other types of retail development. It wishes to explore whether prices paid for land for supermarket development are higher and if so, whether such higher prices sustain, or are sustained by, higher prices for grocery products than would otherwise be the case. This could result in high prices even though profits were not excessive. A related issue is whether supermarkets seek to restrict competitors' access to suitable sites for stores.

9. Relationships with suppliers

The Commission has received evidence from both supermarkets and suppliers on their commercial relationships. It will wish to discuss whether supermarkets have excessive buying power or not, and if so, whether this:

a. lowers the price of products to consumers;

b. prevents efficient suppliers from earning a reasonable return;

c. leads to higher prices than otherwise of products sold by suppliers to other retailers;

d. damages the longer-term competitiveness of the grocery supply base, or some parts of it, in the UK; and

e. reduces consumer choice.

In particular, because the great majority of groceries are bought from supermarkets, fair and reasonable access to supermarket shelves may often be a precondition for an efficient supplier to survive and prosper. The Commission will therefore wish to focus specifically on the terms and conditions governing access to supermarket shelves and whether these are in any way unfairly discriminatory, either as between different suppliers or as between supermarkets' own-label products and those of other suppliers.

Other issues

10. Social, environmental and planning matters

The Commission has sought views on the objectives, role and impact of the planning regime in the UK in relation to supermarkets. These, together with questions of access to grocery outlets by lower income and less mobile consumers, the impact of large grocery retail developments on local communities and related environmental issues, will also be raised.

11. Recent and prospective developments

The Commission will wish to discuss with the companies the most recent, and prospective, performance of the supermarkets, and the extent to which the nature and degree of competition may be changing. This will include the emergence of Internet and other forms of home shopping and the entry of Wal-Mart into the UK market, and any effects these may be expected to have on the competitive situation.

The companies

12. The Commission has considered the market positions of the 24 companies that between them make up the two complex monopolies, in particular their national, regional and local market shares, together with data on the number of their larger stores. In the light of this, the Commission's provisional view is that, in relation to 19 of them, it would be unlikely to conclude that their behaviour operated against the public interest, and the Commission currently has no plans to arrange public interest hearings with any of them. These are Aldi Stores Ltd; Anglia Regional Co-operative Society Ltd; Budgens Stores Ltd; Colchester and East Essex Co-operative Society Ltd; CRS Ltd; CWS Ltd; E H Booth & Co Ltd; Iceland Frozen Foods plc; Lidl UK GmbH; Marks & Spencer plc; Midlands Co-operative Society Ltd; Netto Foodstores Ltd; Oxford, Swindon and Gloucester Co-operative Society Ltd; Plymouth and South Devon Co-operative Society Ltd; Scottish Midland Co-operative Society Ltd; Somerfield plc; United Norwest Co-operatives; Waitrose Ltd; and Yorkshire Co-operatives Ltd. This provisional view carries no implication that any of the activities of the other five companies, ASDA Group plc; Sainsbury Supermarkets Ltd; Wm Morrison Supermarkets plc; Safeway plc; and Tesco plc are or will be viewed as operating against the public interest. The Commission looks forward to discussing the issues with these five companies in March.

Views invited

Any person interested in these matters is invited to comment on any of the issues raised in this statement.


Email: info.office@ni-assembly.gov.uk
f EU or product of SE Asia. Such declarations must only be used where records show that there is blending or variation of the source of the product over a period of 12 months.

Where on the label and what size should the origin declaration be?

Usually the declaration can be included anywhere on the pack provided it is in a clear and legible format.

Where the name of a food includes a place name, this may mislead the consumer as to the origin of the product. Some place names used in the name of the food are the place where the food was made, eg Dutch gouda or Scottish salmon. Others may refer to a particular type of product where the customary name incorporates a place name but the product is not/no longer produced exclusively there, eg Cornish pastie or Eccles cake. It is never clear cut with names like these, especially with those products which may be associated with a certain quality/premium product, eg Cornish ice cream or Devon toffee, whether the consumer interprets the place as the place of origin or a reference to a particular quality.

Where the name of a food or its brand or trade name refers to a place other than where the food is made, the place of origin must be made absolutely clear.

Appendix B

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: DUNNES STORES LIMITED

03 February 2000

I am replying to your letter of 28 January addressed to Mr Eddie Kane. Regrettably, due to previous commitments it is not possible to have our suitable company representative at the meeting planned for 10.45 on Friday 11 February.

Dunnes Stores position in respect of potatoes is that we source all our potatoes sold in our Northern Ireland Stores from Wilsons Potatoes and Vitafresh, Newry.

Dunnes Stores has always had a policy in respect of its Northern Ireland Stores of supporting locally sourced products and this position is well understood by our numerous suppliers particularly those suppliers backing into the Agri-business sector such as Moy Park, O'Kane poultry, Dungannon Meats and Wilson Potatoes.

In recent times we have been conscious that this position has not always been fully appreciated by our customers so we have embarked on a series of advertising activities and in store theme promotions to highlight, for the benefit of our customers, products and produce which is sourced from Northern Ireland Food Processors.

Yours sincerely

GERRY McLORNAN

Appendix C

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: MARKS & SPENCER

18th January 2000

I am writing to confirm our telephone conversation of 11th January that I will appear before the Committee with Mr Angus Wilson from Wilson's Country Fresh, our potato supplier, at your convenience. We would be pleased to explain our approach to the retailing of potatoes in more detail to the Committee. We thought it might be helpful to make a few comments in advance to describe more generally the way in which Marks & Spencer has developed the food business over a period of many years.

Marks & Spencer has a well established record of giving support to the communities in which we trade and this includes, where possible, local sourcing. In this regard we buy a significant proportion of the fresh potatoes sold in our Northern Irish stores from Northern Irish growers. We have been buying our potatoes since 1994 from Wilson's Country Fresh with whom we are developing a long term relationship, a key element in the success of our food business. The success of this relationship to date has allowed us to dramatically increase the tonnage of potatoes that we buy in Northern Ireland.

Marks & Spencer's objective is to set leading standards in food retailing and we do not look to sell large volumes of cheap potatoes. To this end we buy particular potato varieties that customers tell us are the best, and we are constantly looking to procure the cream of the crop in these varieties. Whilst we are not trading a commodity product but a speciality vegetable, the prices we pay will be affected by the volatility of the international potato market, an issue which we and our suppliers must manage. Our customers demand quality and value. Retail prices must reflect supply costs but may also be constrained by what the customers are willing to pay.

With regard to crisping, Marks & Spencer is not involved in producing crisps or sourcing crisping potatoes from Northern Ireland and therefore we cannot comment on any possible impact on local producers.

We hope that we shall be able to help the Committee to clarify some of the issues relating to potatoes. With regard to the more general question of farmers' debt, the terms of reference of the current inquiry are wide ranging. We have insufficient experience of these matters in Northern Ireland for us to make any meaningful contribution and regret that we cannot be of further assistance to the Committee.

Yours sincerely

 

D A GIBSON
Senior Buyer - Potato Department

Appendix D

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: MARKS & SPENCER

7 February 2000

I am writing in response to your letter of 28th January 2000 requesting a memorandum on Marks & Spencer's policy towards and relationships with primary producers in Northern Ireland.

1. Marks & Spencer is proud of its long-term relationship with Northern Ireland. The first Marks & Spencer store in Northern Ireland opened in Belfast thirty-three years ago. Our retail operation is now very significant with seven stores and a major distribution depot, which currently employ over 1600 people. We have invested £65m in this operation over the last five years.

2. Marks and Spencer also has a significant food supply base operation in Northern Ireland, for more than forty years we have been partners with your important agri-food sector. However, our contacts with your business community go beyond stores and suppliers. Through Business in the Community Marks & Spencer people gladly supply expertise to small food enterprises. We are pleased to be on the Queens University Advisory Board and to support the agricultural industry with a major exhibit at the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society Annual Show each May.

3. The success of Marks & Spencer's food business is based on our range of high quality and highly innovative products produced by the best suppliers, that differentiate us from the high volume supermarkets. Our policy of developing collaborative supplier relationships and the excellent quality of Northern Ireland products has led to a highly successful partnership with strong sales and volume growth.

4. As I highlighted to you in my letter of 18th of January we have been buying potatoes in Northern Ireland from Wilson's Country Fresh since 1994. These potatoes are being sold in our stores in Northern Ireland and Eire and this year we will also be selling some across the rest of Europe. Wilson's Country Fresh's business is growing dramatically in tonnage and value terms with Marks & Spencer.

5. Avondale Food Ltd is an important supplier to several departments in our food business. Avondale's business with Marks and Spencer is growing dramatically, 50% of their business is now sold in the rest of Europe, and they have several new lines which are soon to be launched which will continue their strong growth.

6. An important supplier to our dairy business is Dromona Quality Foods, they now supply 60% of all the butter sold by Marks & Spencer in Europe. Similarly, all of the milk Marks & Spencer sell in Northern Ireland is produced in Northern Ireland.

7. We have a substantial business with O'Kanes who have supplied us with poultry for over thirty years. The extremely high standards of innovation at O'Kanes has been critical in achieving our pre-eminence in the chilled poultry business. We currently buy some 4 million chickens and 30,000 turkeys from O'Kanes each year. O'Kanes have become the largest importer of lemons into Northern Ireland and the Marks & Spencer Lemon Chicken is one of our star lines across Europe.

8. In the meat industry we have a similarly strong story. 10% of all Northern Irish steer carcasses are supplied into the Marks & Spencer food business.

9. Our policy in Marks and Spencer is to source the best quality and value foods from our suppliers. We are not a supermarket, but rather a food retailer who offers a range of innovative, high quality products which represent good value for money. Our approach is to work closely with a supplier to jointly develop a product, an approach that leads to close working partnerships. Our suppliers are paid promptly, assisting their business' cash flow.

10. The continuing success of our retail operation and supplier partnerships in Northern Ireland is based on our ability to work with the best suppliers to create highly innovative and differential products. We have every confidence that after over three decades of business in Northern Ireland Marks and Spencer and its suppliers have a strong future in both Northern Ireland and across our European business.

Yours sincerely

D. Gibson
Senior Buyer - Potato Department

Appendix E

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: MUSGRAVE SUPERVALU-CENTRA

7 February 2000

Contents

Paragraph

Introduction 1.1

Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Company Background 2.1

Purchasing & Sourcing Policy 3.1

Purchasing & Sourcing Policy - The Potato Sector 3.2

Consumer Marketing 4.1

Industry Initiatives with Local Producers 5.1

Developing Market Opportunities for Local Producers 6.1

Appendix 7.1

1:1 Introduction

Musgrave SuperValu-Centra welcomes the opportunity to contribute to this very important forum and is confident that the aims of the committee can be achieved in terms of a pro-active, collective response from the industry to supporting and promoting local producers at retail level.

2:1 Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Company Background

  • Musgrave SuperValu-Centra is in partnership with independent retailers, providing unrivalled distribution and an extensive retail support package to retailers who trade under our franchise brands SuperValu and Centra.
  • Entered NI Market in 1996 with the acquisition of 5 medium sized supermarkets.
  • Currently service 33 SuperValu supermarkets and 16 Centra stores, 49 retail outlets in all, 33 of which are locally, independently owned.
  • In the process of upgrading company owned stores in NI for sale to local, independent retail operators.
  • Store refurbishment plans entail considerable investment in service providers throughout the Province, as well as job creation in stores.
  • Combined retail t/o in NI in 1999 was £138 million stg, with group retailers servicing approximately 8% of the grocery market.
  • MSVC NI offices and distribution centres established in Fortwilliam and Mallusk.
  • 119 company central-office and warehouse personnel are employed in NI, with a further 2,000 employed in independent and company-owned stores.
  • Independent grocery sector in ROI accounts for 48% of total sales, largely due to Musgrave Group Support, by comparison with around 29% independents' shares in NI. MSVC expansion into NI market will start process of restoring balance between the multiple and independent sectors, ensuring healthy competition and choice in the marketplace.
  • Independent retailers re-invest in the local communities in which they make a living rather than withdraw profits to headquarters of a multi-national multiple group.

3:1 Current Purchasing & Sourcing Policy

  • The ability to buy as a group is one of the major services supplied to independent retailers through MSVC, allowing independents to compete with multiples.
  • As partners to independent community-based retailers, it is company policy to source locally, wherever possible, as the company needs thriving local economies to ensure a solid customer base for our independent operators, many of whom are based in farming communities.
  • Our company deals locally with over 200 Northern Ireland suppliers.
  • MSVC negotiates prices with trading partners in the various food categories, having reviewed all relevant market movements and supplier-led cost proposals.
  • Recommended retail pricing is advised to all stores following review of primary competitors. However independent retailers can, and do, set their own prices occasionally.
  • In Northern Ireland, almost 60% of all MSVC purchases are from local suppliers.
  • The company operates a buy local policy for fresh produce, subject to seasonality. Almost 70% of fresh foods volume is produced locally.
  • Local trading partners have benefited substantially from improved distribution available through MSVC eg Salad Fayre in Newtownards had a 56% sales increase in 1999 - also Dromona & Willowbrook.
  • MSVC buying policy insists on 100% local sourcing in areas where we have total control on procurement: Eg
    • fresh pork 100% NI
    • fresh beef 100% NI
    • fresh lamb 100% NI
    • deli sausges 100% NI
    • deli bacon 100% NI
    • milk 100% NI
    • eggs 100% NI
  • Extensive promotion has increased fresh meat sales in the past twelve months. Promotional activity was up to 51% in 1999, with the trend to continue. 2000 began with a major SuperValu meat sale in January, including NI pork sausages promoted on TV at 2p/kg.
  • We are currently in the process of rolling out a centralised distribution service for all chilled and fresh produce in NI. When fully implemented, this system will allow wider distribution of locally sourced fresh produce to all our franchise customers.
  • Retail sales for fresh products in ROI increased 35% in the first year following roll-out of a similar system in 1998, with overall supplier business up 15%. Already in NI improved sales of local brands have been recorded.
  • We source £11.6 million NI produce for supply into the ROI market and have targets to develop this in the coming year.
  • In the Republic of Ireland, where group retail turnover is IR£1.05 billion, 70% of all purchases are from local suppliers.
  • The company has won ROI trade award for support of indigenous producers, regularly tops research rankings of retailers "buying Irish" and is regularly credited in public by Govt Ministers for support of indigenous industry, the farming sector and local communities. We are pursuing a similar position in the NI market.

3:2 Purchasing & Sourcing Policy: The Potato Market

  • MSVC NI sources all potato requirements for the NI market from 3 local packers:
    • Wilsons
    • Glens of Antrim
    • Fane Valley
  • Glens of Antrim and Fane Valley only supply 100% local produce of NI under their own brands and the SuperValu own-label.
  • Wilsons supply branded and own-produce sourced 100% on the island of Ireland.
  • White Potatoes - 100% NI
    (own-label)
  • Pink Potatoes - 50% NI
    - 25% GB
    - 25% ROI

Blight problems experienced in the NI market necessitated the supply of ROI produce during 1999. Local sourcing is the preferred option which is only over-ridden when suitable supply is not available.

  • All own-brand and branded potatoes in Northern Ireland are labelled by Country of origin, as is the legislative requirement. MSVC policy is also to highlight product of Northern Ireland, where possible on packaging and at point-of-sale.
  • 99% of MSVC crisp sales in Northern Ireland is branded product. Almost 50% of that is supplied by Tayto NI in Tandregee, Co Armagh. SuperValu own-brand crisp sales, supplied from Co Meath, represent 1% of the NI SuperValu sales volume.

4:1 Consumer Marketing

  • MSVC NI invests £1.9 million in National and local advertising annually, with additional local advertising by stores.
  • Promotion of local produce includes local press, point-of-sale, national television and mailshot/brochure activity.
  • A corporate instore identity kit, with artwork and dedicated point-of-sale, for all stores promotes the advertising and POS opportunities in identifying local produce.
  • PONI products are all highlighted instore with dedicated POS.
  • Regular promotion of local produce is conducted instore, including tastings, coupon offers, multi-buys etc.
  • The fresh food trading department co-ordinates group price promotions on local produce, particularly fresh meat, on a 52 wk per year basis, to encourage sales. Eg: 25% of all pork, 25% of all lamb, 2p/kg pork sausages etc.
  • Instore cookery demonstrations have been organised to promote superior quality and versatility of local produce.
  • Regularly market "Season's First Local Produce" such as launch of First NI strawberries with Lester Brownlee Co of Armagh on SuperValu's stand at last year's Balmoral Show.

5:1 Industry Initiatives with Local Producers

  • Collaborative projects with Ulster Pork & Bacon Forum and local suppliers, Fred C Robinson's, to market local produce and build brand identity - in-store POS campaigns, national TV advertising and brochures for "Are You Pickin' Ulster Pork?", campaign etc.
  • Supplier partnerships in NI include the development of Armagh Baked Ham exclusively for SuperValu and Centra by Mourne Country Meats.
  • Developed a gourmet tomato range exclusively with Greenmount College in Antrim.
  • Projects with Ulster Farmers Union - sponsored trade shows/potato conference - 24 Feb 2000, Balmoral Show etc.
  • UFU Chairman Will Taylor frequently attends local SuperValu store openings, as a guest of the independent owners, and has written a testimonial to SuperValu's support of local producers.
  • Farming Life newspaper supplement sponsored for Balmoral Show organisers.
  • Sponsor "Insight" dedicated supplement in Ulster Grocer bi-monthly, highlighting joint business initiatives with NI producers and suppliers and providing editorial space to spokespersons of producer organisations.
  • Sponsored 1999 supplement in UK Grocer magazine promoting local NI supplier base and have committed to 2000 publication also.
  • MSVC £3,000 bursary for Food Safety (MSc) students at the Agriculture and Food Science centre in Queens University. Recognising that farm businesses need to enhance quality management systems to optimise competitiveness and profitability and also that students from farming backgrounds need financial support to counteract high "drop-out" rate due to financial constraints.
  • Musgrave SuperValu-Centra personnel make themselves available to NI producer groups and trade organisations to discuss business development and promotion.
  • £3,000 awards fund presented annually in association with NIFDA (Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association) to encourage the further career development of agri-food post-graduate students.

6:1 An Approach to Developing Market Opportunities
for Local Producers

  • MSVC has been central to the establishment of NIIRTA, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association, and commits to having the Association address measures for independent traders to develop business with local producers.
  • Identify key individuals from major organisations involved in producing, marketing, and retailing NI produce - eg: PONI assoc, major retailers, UFU, Govt agencies - and schedule a one day "think-tank" to present issues and examine solutions. MSVC would welcome the opportunity to be involved.
  • Formalise contact with existing marketing boards for the different sectors eg: LMC meat marketing board, NIFDA etc to address sectoral issues and promote produce at trade and consumer level through dedicated marketing campaigns carried throughout the retail industry.
  • Develop marketing boards, as required in other sectors, such as fruit and vegetable marketing or dairy produce.
  • MSVC would dedicate suitably qualified personnel to work with each board, and alongside other retail and trade representatives, to pursue the objectives of the marketing boards.
  • Establish a resource/Authority advising producers on how to satisfy current market demands, in terms of production, packing, distribution etc. The resources of highly experienced MSVC trading personnel could be made available to advise the authority.
  • In the ROI we have worked closely with the Irish Farmers Assoc to build producer groups capable of supplying modern retail and consumer demands. With the already high UFU producer group standards, similar trading relationships can be effected in NI.
  • We partner individual indigenous supplier companies to develop own-brand food lines for our stores - egg producers, dairy ranges etc - although new to the NI market, it is our intention to identify opportunities for similar trading and "mentoring" partnerships in the Province. (see Para 5:1 Mourne Country Meats).
  • We support Government in the ROI at a very practical level, on all food supply and producer issues. For example, in 1996 during the BSE scare, we headed a Govt expert group set-up to talk down the scare at consumer level and get Irish beef back on supermarket shelves.
  • The Musgrave Group Managing Director Seamus Scally is the only retail representative on a Government appointed "Agri-Food 2010" committee to address indigenous food supply and marketing. MSVC NI personnel could be made available to local Government on a similar basis.

Sheila Gilroy-Collins, Marketing Managing
Musgrave SuperValu-Centra Northern Ireland Tel: (232) 835021

Appendix F

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: SAFEWAY

12 January 2000

Procurement Policy

I refer to Dr Ian Paisley's letter of 21st December addressed to my colleague Brian McColl. I am replying on behalf of Safeway.

I will deal with each of your concerns in turn:

1. It is difficult for us as retailers to comment on the prices which potato growers receive from the packers they supply. As you are no doubt aware, the supply chain for potatoes and other types of produce has three stages. The grower supplies the packer, who packs and transports the product to the retailer's distribution centre (in our case our depot at Larne). The retailer then delivers to his own stores. The price we charge our customers, therefore, is driven by the price we have to pay the packers who supply us.

2. We do not have commercial relations with individual growers. However, what happens in the market place inevitably works its way back up the supply chain:

  • The potato market has been very unstable over the past 12 months. In the first quarter of 1999, potato prices were relatively high as a result of the poor crop of 1998. From May onwards, however, a bumper crop of new potatoes came on to the market and since then prices have fallen dramatically. In Northern Ireland our biggest volume line is the 2.5kg bag of white potatoes. Our retail price for this product in Northern Ireland has fallen from £1.89 to 0.95p, or by 50%, since last Spring.
  • In Northern Ireland, around 95% of the potatoes we sell are supplied to us by Glens of Antrim (GOA). The remainder are supplied by Bartletts, our Scottish supplier. Over the period since last Spring, while our retail price for 2.5kg whites has fallen by 50%, GOA's price to us is down by only 38%. In Scotland, by contrast, we have been able to reduce our retail price to 0.65p per 2.5kg bag or (66%) because our major supplier, Bartletts, have cut their price to us by a similar percentage.
  • The reason, therefore, that Northern Ireland consumers are paying 0.30p more for a 2.5kg bag than Scottish consumers is not "profiteering" by retailers but the substantial difference in our supply terms between Northern Ireland and Scotland. Bartletts are currently supplying us at a price per case which is over one third lower than GOA.
  • The reason for the differential is not that GOA are making "excessive" profits. The problem for them is that Northern Ireland is a small, relatively high cost market in which to operate. GOA are obliged to trade on lower volumes and therefore higher overheads than they would if they were based on the mainland. They also have higher land costs and pay more for their seed. We estimate that they are working on an average net profit margin to sales of around 5%, which is about the same as our own net margin. Clearly we could reduce our prices to Northern Ireland consumers by sourcing all our potato supplies from Bartletts in Scotland but we have decided that we must continue to play our part in supporting the agricultural economy in Northern Ireland.

3. I cannot really comment on your point about the manufacture of crisps as GOA do not supply us with this product.

4. As far as our potatoes are concerned, the country of origin is always made clear on the bag as well as the variety.

I hope this information answers the concerns you have raised, but if there is anything further you need, please let me know.

Yours sincerely

Kevin Hawkins
Director of Communications

Appendix G

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: SAINSBURY'S SUPERMARKETS LTD

9 February 2000

1. Introduction

1.1 Sainsbury's Supermarkets Ltd (Sainsbury's) is the largest subsidiary of J Sainsbury plc which also operates Savacentre hypermarkets, Homebase home and garden centres and Sainsbury's Bank in the UK plus Shaw's supermarkets in the US and Edge in Egypt.

1.2 Sainsbury's sources products from over 2,000 suppliers who provide some 12,000 food lines and 9,000 non-food lines. Each week around nine million customers shop in over 400 Sainsbury's supermarkets throughout the UK. Last year, Sainsbury's sold over £11.5 billion worth of food in the UK. £6 billion worth of this was food from the UK.

1.3 Today Sainsbury's has 100 suppliers in Northern Ireland, supplying fresh produce and product in stores to the Province and the rest of the United Kingdom. Sainsbury's has committed to doubling the value of its existing business sourced from Northern Ireland to between £150 and £200 million over the next few years and the value is now £120 million. Around 150,000 customers shop in the stores each week.

1.4 Sainsbury's potato supplier in the Province is Glens of Antrim based in Cushendall, Country Antrim. Glens employ 35 people and supply potatoes to all Sainsbury's stores in the Province. The business is worth £1 million per annum.

1.5 On 20 June 1995 Sainsbury's announced its intention to invest in Northern Ireland with an initial tranche of 7 stores costing £100 million and providing 2,200 full and part time jobs. Sixteen per cent of the first 1,000 jobs were from the long term unemployed.

1.6 There are five Sainsbury's supermarkets and petrol filling stations: Ballymena (December 1996), Forestside, South Belfast (March 1997), Coleraine (December 1997), Craigavon (March 1998) and Newry (September 1998). Sainsbury's in Armagh (December 1998) does not have a petrol filling station. Sainsbury's in Strand Road, Londonderry opened on 25 January this year providing around 350 jobs (this store does not have a petrol station). There are seven Homebase stores in the Province as well.

1.7 Sainsbury's currently awaits planning determination on a number of other applications including a flagship store Sprucefield, Lisburn and Newtownabbey. Further opportunities are being appraised to provide an ultimate portfolio in Northern Ireland of some 12-14 supermarkets.

1.8 This document outlines our Sainsbury's policy on sourcing Northern Ireland produce; margins and pricing policy and our buying policy using a number of case studies including potatoes.

2. Sainsbury's policy on sourcing Northern Ireland produce

2.1 Background

Sainsbury's is committed to UK agriculture, working with farmers to ensure high-quality, value for money food is available to consumers. Like all supermarkets we do not buy direct from farmers, we buy meat from processors and fruit, vegetables and salads from packers and pre-packers.

2.1.1 Prior to Sainsbury's announcement in June 1995 of its development plans for seven stores across Northern Ireland, the Company sourced £80 million worth of produce a year from Northern Ireland from 17 local suppliers. Sainsbury's has committed to doubling the value of its existing business sourced from Northern Ireland to between £150 and £200 million over the next few years and the value is now £120 million.

2.1.2 Today Sainsbury's has 100 suppliers in Northern Ireland, supplying fresh produce and product in stores to the Province and the rest of the United Kingdom. This is an example of the importance which the Company places on sourcing quality and will continue to work closely with the Industrial Development Board (IDB) and other agencies to increase the number of suppliers. No company is too small to supply Sainsbury's. No fee is required from companies in order to become a Sainsbury's supplier, and no penalty clauses are imposed in our supply contracts. The vast majority of our suppliers are free to trade with competitors. Legal disputes are rare.

2.1.3 It makes sound commercial sense to maximise local purchases for supply to our outlets in the Province, particularly on produce where there are both cost and freshness benefits in not having to transport goods several hundred miles from the mainland. Although there is strong demand in the Province for local products, we share the view of the General Consumer Council that consumers in the Province will buy local products only if they represent good value for money and good quality. Regarding the transportation of food, we estimate that we eliminated at least 1.6 million km last year, cut fuel consumption by 597,000 litres and cut CO2 emissions by 1,530 tonnes. Our suppliers also reduced food mileage by 480,000km.

2.2 'Meet the Buyer' conferences

To increase the supplying opportunities available to local producers, Sainsbury's has been proactive in sourcing product from Northern Ireland including three 'Meet the Buyer' sourcing conferences. The first was held in Belfast in 1995 and smaller events were held in Londonderry in April 1996 and in Newry in May 1998. Potential suppliers met Sainsbury's buyers on a one-to-one basis to talk about supplying opportunities.

2.2.1 In November 1999, we, along with the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce, ran a seminar to highlight supplying opportunities with Sainsbury's both in Northern Ireland and throughout the UK for smaller companies in the area.

2.3 'Partners in Produce' scheme

Three Northern Ireland companies - Glens of Antrim Potatoes (Cushendall, County Antrim), Sparky Pac (Comber, County Down) and Hughes Mushrooms (Dungannon, County Tyrone) became the first Northern Ireland 'Partners in Produce' when Sainsbury's launched its Partnership in Produce initiative in Northern Ireland in November 1997.

2.3.1 Partners benefit by the partnership providing them with a planned market for their produce and the security of a financially sound trading relationship so that growing and packing can be planned against clear sales programmes and with the back-up of Sainsbury's technological and research expertise.

2.3.2 Jobs have been created as a result of Sainsbury's supplying opportunities in Northern Ireland. The major share turnover of Dungannon Meats, for example is with Sainsbury's and as a result of this sustained level of business, Dungannon Meats now employs over 620 people and is one of the largest employers in the South Tyrone area.

2.3.3 We believe that the support we give to products through in-store promotion and our Partnership schemes is an effective way of helping the agricultural sector. If any supplier finds that his business is being diminished because of an initiative we are taking with other products in that same category, then we would work with him to try to develop his product range so that he had other means of increasing his income by, for example, spreading the product to more stores. It is of no benefit to Sainsbury's to see one of our suppliers in financial difficulty. We want them to succeed as much as they do. We need suppliers who are investing for the future, investing in better quality and investing in new varieties to improve choice and quality and who ensure that welfare and health and safety issues are dealt with. Last Autumn, Dungannon Meats, announced a new scheme to use bull calves for beef products to help tackle the current crisis in the sector.

2.3.4 We have looked at the possibility of supporting farmers' markets but we came up against a number of problems such as planning constraints restricting the use of our car parks for anything other than car parking.

2.4 Sainsbury's support at the Balmoral Show

In 1999 Sainsbury's participated for the fourth year at Northern Ireland's premier agricultural show - the Balmoral Show. The theme of Sainsbury's stand was 'supporting local growers and suppliers', a reaffirmation of the Company's commitment to Northern Ireland growers and suppliers and local sourcing in general.

2.4.1 At a reception for suppliers held at the stand, the Sainsbury's Outstanding Supplier Achievement Awards for local suppliers were inaugurated. The awards are for local suppliers who achieve exceptional business growth with the supermarket. The Awards illustrate both Sainsbury's and the award winners consistent commitment to quality last year. Dungannon Meats won the large company category and Glens of Antrim Potatoes won the small company award. Their combined growth in business with Sainsbury's was 350 per cent. Glens of Antrim employ 35 people and supply potatoes to all Sainsbury's stores in the Province. The business is worth £1 million per annum.

2.5 Supplier Development Programme

If there are suppliers and sources in Northern Ireland who are able to provide a product that is as good as one that we are already sourcing from the mainland or elsewhere then it makes sense in terms of freshness and delivery costs to develop that source. In February 1998 Sainsbury's launched a major Supplier Development Programme to assist Northern Ireland food companies in the development of their business with Sainsbury's. The programme, delivered by Leavercliff Associates, has given 27 local food companies a unique opportunity to understand how to work with and develop their business with Sainsbury's.

2.5.1 The programme took the form of a series of seminars covering areas such as understanding the UK market and identifying and exploiting product opportunities. Companies were supported by a number of one-to-one sessions, which looked at logistics, financial analysis and technical requirements. This programme is now complete and has resulted in these suppliers growing their business with Sainsbury's by around £12 million.

2.5.2 As a result of the Supplier Development Programme, Hughes Mushrooms of Dungannon is set to triple its business with Sainsbury's and is on target to supply mushrooms to the value of almost £5.5 million to Sainsbury's stores throughout the Province and across the rest of the UK.

2.5.3 The second Sainsbury's Development Programme was launched in March 1999 and involved 10 additional local Sainsbury's suppliers. Annual turnover by November 1999 had increased by 35 per cent for the suppliers involved. Forecast turnover for the next 12 months is predicted to be around 130 per cent.

2.6 Northern Ireland Suppliers: wider opportunities

A number of Northern Ireland companies who have become suppliers to Sainsbury's since the company began trading in Northern Ireland have subsequently become suppliers to Sainsbury's on the mainland. These include Tayto Crisps, Farm Fed Chickens, Irwin's bread, Morrows Pate and Hughes Mushrooms. Size is not a barrier to supplying the mainland market.

2.6.1 The company has sourced products from Dungannon Meats, Cuan Oysters and Denny's for around 20 years prior to developing stores in Northern Ireland. Farm Fed Chickens from Coleraine, Sainsbury's only source of corn fed chicken, has almost doubled its business with Sainsbury's since 1997 and recently won an additional contract expected to be worth £5 million annually with Sainsbury's to supply its premium range of corn fed chicken to the company's top 70 stores. Hughes Mushrooms will triple its business with Sainsbury's over the next 18 months to around £4.7 million a year.

2.7 Labelling policy

We are committed to supporting the local farming industry and have been labelling meat, fruit and vegetables as home-produced for many years. Therefore produce from Northern Ireland is marked 'Product of Northern Ireland'. By the middle of this year we will have labelling of origin on the remaining fresh meat products which include ready meals, sandwiches and delicatessen products.

2.7.1 We are looking to extend regionality across the UK and 'Products from Northern Ireland' will be incorporated into this policy. Any future labelling will be as simple as possible for ease of recognition and designed with the customer in mind

3. Sainsbury's Margins and Pricing Policy

3.1 Our primary aim is to deliver the very best competitive offer to our customers. In accordance with our view that the Province is part of a single national market we operate the same pricing policy in the Province as we do on the mainland, that is a national pricing policy with a few tweaks to reflect specific local trading conditions such as in the potato (see table 1), milk and bakery industries for example details of which are below. It is a popular misconception that retailers are making large profits at the expense of farmers.

3.1.1 The IGD announced recently the results of a survey into consumers attitudes to food prices and profits. It found that consumers had exaggerated views about profit levels. Consumers thought an average of 36 pence in every pound spent in food shops went in profit to retailers and 26 pence to manufacturers - the actual figures are 6.5p and 8.5p. [i.e. manufacturers profits are proportionately higher.]

3.1.2 The IGD research showed that there is little understanding of how industry makes or uses profits and there is an exaggerated view of how large profits are.

3.2 Farmgate and retail pricing

A large proportion of the cost which arises between the farm gate and the retail shop include the costs of sale and transport, processing, packing, distribution and retailing costs. Retailing costs include the cost of promotion, staff, depot and the cold chain. Processor costs have risen significantly due to additional food safety and hygiene requirements. These costs have been passed onto the retailer. We are looking ways in which these costs can be reduced without any detrimental impact on the safety and integrity of the food we sell.

3.2.1 It has been suggested that retailers put the price paid at the farmgate as well as the retail price on goods. The only price we pay is the one to our suppliers for packed produce and produce ready for retail sale. We are not involved in the price our suppliers pay to farmers. It would be far too complicated to have different labelling. If consumers are to understand what they are being presented with, then each added cost after the farmgate, be it added by the packer, abattoir, processor or retailer, would have to be explained. It is in our interests to have profitable farmers.

3.2.2 Potato example

TABLE 1: List of commodities supplied by Northern Ireland supplier, Glens of Antrim Potatoes to stores in Northern Ireland all year compared to average prices of mainland suppliers.

 

7/2/99 Cost £

Retail (pence)

%

7/8/99 Cost £

Retail (pence)

%

Present Cost £

Retai (pence)

%

Sainsbury's
Loose baking potatoes

                 

Glen's cost

11·3

49

42·3

9·6

39

38·5

7

55

33

Mainland

11·1

49

43·4

9·5

39

39·1

6·45

55

38·3

Sainsbury's
King Edwards 2·5kg

             

1·79

44·1

Glen's cost

10

2.39

47·7

N/A

N/A

N/A

8

1·79

44·1

Mainland

10·06

2·39

47·4

8·06

1·99 (proma)

 

7·36

1·79

48·6

Sainsbury's
White Potatoes 2·5kg

                 

Glen's cost

9·02

1·69

33·3

6·5

95

14·5

6·25

95

17·8

Mainland

8·96

1·69

33·7

5·9

95

22·4

3·8

69

31·2

Sainsbury's
Maris Piper 2·5kg

10·6

2·39

44·6

11

1·99

30·9

8·3

1·49

30·4

Glen's cost

10·6

2·39

44·6

11

1·99

30·9

8·3

1·49

30·4

Mainland

9·94

1·89

34·3

10·4

1·99

34·7

7·2

1·49

39·6

Sainsbury's
Red Potatoes 2·5kg

                 

Glen's cost

9·26

2·29

49·5

8·7

2·49

56·3

7

1·49

41·2

Mainland cost

9·3

2·29

49·2

9·02

2·49

54·7

6·44

1·49

45·9

3.2.3 Milk

Programming plans governing the amount of supply are agreed with produce suppliers. These plans are very beneficial to suppliers as it guarantees them a market for their product. Last year we launched an initiative with our three principal organic dairy suppliers and the Organic Milk Suppliers Co-operative. We have undertaken to pay a minimum price of 29·5 pence per litre over a five year rolling commitment. This is set against the purchase of minimum volumes raising to 155 million litres in 2003/4. We anticipate that organic milk will by then represent 15% of our total milk sales.

3.2.4 Sainsbury's sources all its conventional milk in the Province from local dairies. When we opened our first store, representatives of the Dairy Industry highlighted their concerns to us over the possible impact on milk rounds in the Province. We made a concession, to raise the price we would charge for 4 pint milk from a mainland retail price of 83p to 89p.

3.2.5 The Bakery Industry

Sainsbury's bakery trade with Northern Ireland suppliers has increased by £0·5 million over the past year. This represents an increase of almost 17 per cent. Sainsbury's is aware of the problems of the local bakery industry which far pre-date the arrival of Sainsbury's in the Province. There has long been serious overcapacity in the industry which is inefficient and has been unable to make reasonable profits despite high retail prices. The IDB recognises that there is overcapacity in the industry and has said that it is "unable to finance a sector which was already over capacity" (20/11/99).

We do not sell Economy bread in Northern Ireland (sold at 17p on the mainland) because it is not possible to source this locally or to sell at this price. Our decision not to stock Economy bread reflects a need to recognise the sensitivities of this sector. We provide choice and value for money in the range of bread that we offer in the Province. We sell a standard white sliced loaf which is locally sourced at 35p (on the mainland the same loaf is sold at 39p). All key sliced lines are locally sourced which accounts for 75 per cent of our bread sales in the Province. Northern Ireland bakers sent around £1 million of bread to our mainland stores last year.

Sainsbury's is committed to sourcing the core bread range from the Province and extending the range of regional lines as appropriate. Since 1997 a local baker, Irwins Bakery, has supplied bread and regional products to around 90 of our stores. This company has recently invested £5 million in a new state of the art bakery. Cake products have been the biggest growth area as additional regional suppliers have been taken on board to supply regional customer demand. Howell House bakery has shown significant progress and have returned growth of 250 per cent. Other successful local bakeries have updated their production methods, diversified towards the production of more sophisticated bread products (soda and potato farls) and have successfully exploited the demand for locally sourced products.

4. Sainsbury's Buying Policy

4.1 Seventy five per cent of the food and drink that Sainsbury sells is from the United Kingdom. In value terms, we sell about £120 million of British food and drink each week - over £6 billion per annum. Around 90 per cent of the food and drink that Sainsbury sells that could be sourced from the UK is from the UK.

4.1.1 We have to recognise that after quality, our customers rate choice as their top priority. It is our customers' requirements on varieties for sale that determine what produce and products are made available. Customers not only want products which for climatic reasons are not produced in the United Kingdom such as bananas, avocados, kiwi fruit, and pineapples, but they also want authentic products for example real Parma Ham; products which are seasonally unavailable for example strawberries at Christmas; and products which can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, for example corned beef. The increasing interest in organic produce by consumers and the potential it offered to Northern Ireland farmers were highlighted at 'Northern Ireland, the Organic Opportunity' conference sponsored by Sainsbury's.

4.1.2 Some customers want green beans, soft fruit and new seasons potatoes and lamb, for example, all year round. Either the UK alternative is not of the quality or price that they are looking for or there is no UK alternative. We cannot dictate to our consumers that they must only eat certain foods at certain times of the year. The fact is, consumers can choose to pay the cost of moving these products half way around the world and, from a competitive point of view, if we don't offer them someone else will.

4.1.3 We do work with our suppliers to maximise availability to locally sourced produce in Northern Ireland to avoid importing from the mainland or elsewhere.

4.1.4 We have to import some products which could be produced in Northern Ireland but, for a number of reasons, are not. Organic food is a prime example. We import 70 per cent of the organic foods we sell. We have to do this in order to meet the ever growing demand for organics in the UK. By doing this, however, we are helping to establish the UK market. We hope that UK producers will eventually make this market their own, substituting with local products wherever they can. Imports of food and drink to the country are not new - for many decades we've been importing tea, coffee, cocoa and oranges, for example. Forty years ago we were importing tomatoes and we've been importing apples for a number of decades.

4.1.5 Very rarely we import products that we could buy in the United Kingdom. However, levels of supply have not always been what they are today. Take for example beef. We have sourced beef from Eire for 25 years. We first went to Eire because of shortfalls in the UK. We now have long established relationships with these suppliers and feel it would not make good business sense to drop them.

4.1.6 Lack of availability can be a problem. Recently we wanted to run a promotion for UK sourced Back Bacon but found that our suppliers could not obtain sufficient product to meet the increased customer demand that such a promotion would create. The supply just was not there. Our suppliers shared in our disappointment at not being able to get this promotion off the ground having themselves invested millions of pounds in new plants to process and pack pigmeat. Meat promotions can raise sales by 1000 per cent.

4.1.7 We did run the promotion but using bacon from the UK and other sources and sold 2 million packs in one week. 60 per cent of Sainsbury's bacon is British compared with the national import level of 50 per cent.

4.2 Cheap Food Imports

Regarding prices for UK and imported goods, if there is a difference in the retail selling price of imported and domestically produced foods in our stores, it is because the cost price at which we have bought the products is different. Where costs are lower for imported product it is usually because their producers have the advantage of a better climate and/or lower input costs.

4.2.1 It would not be right for us to charge customers more for an imported product to protect a British one. Interestingly, whilst our customers are concerned about value for money, in a list of their priorities, cheapness was fifteenth.

5. Other Information

5.1 Sainsbury's is very supportive of initiatives designed to facilitate greater access to knowledge and improved understanding between the countryside, farmers, industry and retailers. For over 130 years Sainsbury's has been committed both to supporting farming in the UK and to offering customers safe, high quality and value for money food. We have no intention of changing these long standing pledges and are fully engaged ensuring there is a successful future for farming in Northern Ireland and on the mainland.

5.2 Sainsbury's believe that all parts of the food chain need to work closely together to resolve any perceived differences. Everything Sainsbury's does as a business is driven by customer demand. Our view is that supermarkets are part of the solution to the present crisis in farming and not the cause of it.

5.3 Sainsbury's SAVE Scheme

In addition to our support for farmers we are also committed to the UK's rural communities. Sainsbury's SAVE scheme (Sainsbury's Assisting Village Enterprises) scheme allows for the sale of Sainsbury's branded goods via village stores, thereby helping their viability.

5.4 Community Involvement

Ever since Sainsbury's announced its intention to invest in Northern Ireland the Company began working with community groups and charities large and small. This diversity reflects Sainsbury's strengths, not only as a company but also as a business which has its roots firmly in the community.

5.5 The Company has supported hundreds of charities and community groups around our stores from sponsoring the Belfast Festival at Queen's to funding Worktrain Ballykeel Ltd in Ballymena, a partnership that provides community based education and training in a very deprived area of the town. Other examples of community involvement, both past and present include: Early Bird Montessori Playgroup, Armagh, County Armagh; Northern Ireland Council on Disability, Belfast; St Patrick's Day Parade, Newry, County Down; Londonderry & Limavady Agricultural Show, County Londonderry; Newry Drama Festival; Antrim Games; City of Belfast International Rose Trials; Fire Victim Support Vehicle (across Northern Ireland); Loughgall Football Club.

Appendix H

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: TESCO

8 February 2000

Thank you for your letter of 28 January. I can confirm that representatives from Tesco will attend, as requested, a public meeting of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development on Friday 11 February, at 10.45am.

Please find attached two memoranda, one outlining Tesco procurement policy in general and one dealing specifically with potatoes.

Unfortunately, I shall not be in Northern Ireland on the 11th, but senior colleagues will be attending in my absence. The Tesco representatives at the meeting will be:-

Mr Cliff Kells Northern Ireland Commercial Category Manager
Mrs Gwynneth Cockcroft Davidson Cockcroft, Public Affairs
Mr Peter Timoney Northern Ireland Finance Manager

They will be accompanied by a representative from the Tesco designated potato supplier in Northern Ireland

Mr Angus Wilson Wilson Country Potatoes

Thank you for your helpful notes on the Committee, and its procedures. I am conscious that your original letter emphasised the need to find a way forward for the agricultural industry in Northern Ireland. With this in mind, I should like to offer our co-operation in endeavouring to find practical and sustainable solutions to the problems currently encountered in an increasingly global retail market.

We firmly believe that our position as the number one retailer in the UK has been reached as a result of our complete customer focus. We would be willing to share this consumer understanding, plus relevant research and technical expertise should the Committee feel that this could be of benefit.

We would also be pleased to participate in any discussions pertaining to the development of customer-orientated agricultural strategies and have listed some suggested topics regarding potatoes in our memorandum on the subject.

I trust that the attached submissions, and forthcoming meeting, will be of assistance to the committee in its analysis of the issues, and development of potential solutions.

Yours sincerely

 

ERIC BOWEN
Director, Tesco, Northern Ireland

Memorandum 1

In general Tesco does not deal directly with farmers, although there are a few exceptions. Our direct contact is normally a supplier in the form of a processor or manufacturer who has negotiated overall terms with us and who, in turn, negotiate individual terms with each farmer. However, our local procurement policy supports hundreds of farmers across the province spanning all of Northern Ireland's agricultural sectors. Suppliers range from small specialist producers right through to large companies most of whom in turn, source their raw materials locally. In addition some of these larger companies are major suppliers to Tesco GB.

Tesco Commitment to the Local Agricultural Sector

1. Our procurement policy is to source locally wherever possible. With the exception of a few speciality products our local sourcing commitment is as follows:

(a) All fresh beef

(b) All fresh lamb

(c) All fresh pork

(d) All fresh and seasonal frozen poultry

(e) All fresh fish

(f) All fresh eggs

(g) All fresh milk (including goats' milk)

(h) All fresh produce subject to season and availability

(i) All fresh bread

2. At present, Tesco spend more than £220 million per annum with local suppliers and is on target to increase this to more than £290 million by the year 2002. Tesco also has an office in Belfast supporting our 7000 local employees. All of these staff are dedicated to supporting local suppliers and producers to meet the needs of our customers.

3. Since our entry into the market, Tesco has invested heavily in store refurbishment, new stores and a new distribution infrastructure which facilitates local procurement of fresh agricultural products.

4. Over the last two years, Tesco technologists and the local Tesco team have forged links with local producers, agricultural colleges and universities with the aim of encouraging product development. We have done this through practical and financial support.

5. The company is part of a trade development group, originally set up by Tesco, consisting of representatives from DANI, IDB, LEDU, CBI and the Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association.

Memorandum 2

The last decade has witnessed fundamental change in the Northern Ireland potato market. Consumer expectations, purchasing habits and consumption patterns all continue to evolve to reflect lifestyle changes. We have sought to address these changes by working in partnership with local suppliers. This has resulted in a clear and ongoing commitment to source as much as we possibly can from indigenous potato producers.

Tesco Commitment to the Local Potato Sector

1. Our supply partner for fresh potatoes is Wilson's Country Potatoes. Since this relationship began, Wilson's Country has grown into a significant business, employing 90 local people.

2. Our policy is to source our fresh potatoes from Northern Ireland. From time to time, however, to meet customers' range and quality expectations, we supplement our local offering with imported varieties, not available locally.

3. Through Wilson's Country, we have worked with local growers to enable them to meet the specifications now demanded by our customers. This is particularly the case with washed potatoes, which now constitute almost two-thirds of our overall fresh potato sales, and is helping local growers to produce to internationally accepted standards.

4. In relation to further-processed potato products, we have developed strong relationships and growing business with key local companies in areas such as crisp and frozen chip manufacture. We do this through the promotion of indigenous local brands and, in the last year, following intensive technical support, the launch of a number of locally-produced Tesco brand products.

5. We have worked in partnership with government departments such as DANI and together with Loughry College have pioneered the development of traditional products, such as champ, into a new and convenient format, in order to meet the changing needs of our customers.

The Way Forward

Tesco are prepared to work with the committee and with the broader agricultural community to provide practical assistance in various key areas, and we would suggest the following as potential topics for discussion:

1. Development of comprehensive market data and local consumer research.

2. Provision of adequate storage to extend the season for locally-produced potatoes.

3. Further development of new products and potato varieties.

4. The development of a local (and international) marketing strategy for Northern Ireland potatoes.

5. Organic potatoes.

Appendix I

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: LIVESTOCK AND MEAT COMMISSION FOR N I

13 January 2000

Agricultural Debt

I refer to your letter of 17 December to our Chairman on the above subject. In responding to your enquiry, we should start by advising that in general our role does not involve us in having a particularly high awareness of the levels of debt within agriculture as a whole. Indeed, with the exception of a few approaches which farmers have made on a private and confidential basis for advice, our awareness of debt levels in the beef and sheepmeat sector is also limited.

It was clear in each of the individual cases where approaches have been made to us that high debt levels had been incurred through the acquisition of agricultural land for beef and sheepmeat production at prices which were clearly not sustainable on a stand-alone basis for such a business. In each case, it seemed unlikely that banks would have granted facilities for such asset purchases without having a lien on other assets of the particular farmer.

Within our particular sectors, while the levels of profitability have been substantially curtailed and the values of livestock have significantly reduced over recent years, it is still generally possible for producers to cover their costs. The transitional period to the current low prices have of course resulted in some individual cases, particularly of beef finishers, where working capital borrowings have not been fully discharged on the disposal of stock. We conclude, however, that within our sector, the most significant reason for debt problems have been where significant asset purchases have been made.

In order to explain the current situation, we have prepared the attached business model which looks at the current year prospects. The model demonstrates that for a typical Northern Ireland specialist beef farm, a small profit can be achieved, but this profit is scarcely adequate to service the investment in "liquid assets" (stock and machinery). The model concludes that the value placed on land for beef and sheepmeat production should not exceed the amount required to be invested to generate an average industrial wage of £16,000 per annum. Since the model concludes that a land area of 120 acres is necessary, it is difficult to see how a land value of more than £1,000 to £1,500 per acre is justified. With land values remaining throughout Northern Ireland at levels of three and four times this value, it is difficult to see how land, buildings or other major asset purchases can be financed.

Throughout this period of declining fortunes for beef and sheepmeat producers, you correctly identify the reluctance which Government has displayed to take up EU aid which might be available. Agrimonetary compensation is the prime example. This reluctance of course is due to the effects which it would have on the UK rebate and on the budget when the UK Exchequer is required to make a direct contribution. Agrimonetary compensation, however, is only a transitional support while currencies are undergoing change relative to one another. While it would be helpful to alleviate debt in some instances, if Government were to be persuaded to retrospectively make these payments, they do not in themselves reverse the conundrum which we face in the future. We have an industry which needs reorganisation to improve competitiveness, and yet asset values as they are at the moment do not allow that reorganisation to take place.

We recognise that the circumstances in other sectors may be different, and indeed in some sectors we understand that current costs are not being covered by market prices.

In writing, we are conscious of the evolving Govermental arrangements within Northern Ireland. We are keen, at an appropriate time, to ensure that the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development has a suitable level of knowledge and understanding of the work of LMC. We would like therefore to extend an invitation to the Committee to visit us at our offices at Lissue House. We would propose to make presentations about the various aspects of our work and focus on some current issues within the beef and sheepmeat sectors. Perhaps you would raise the possibility of such a visit with the Committee and if there is agreement in principle, we can agree a mutually acceptable date.

We hope that these comments are helpful in your consideration of this matter.

Yours sincerely

DAVID RUTLEDGE
Chief Executive
Enc

BUSINESS MODEL - YEAR 2000

Typical Northern Ireland Specialist Beef Farm

50 Suckler Cows @ 1.0 Livestock Units each
50 Calves up to 1 year @ 0.3 Livestock Units each
50 Store Cattle 1-2 years @ 0.6 Livestock Units each
150 Cattle 95 Livestock Units

Income

Sales:

50 cattle per year
Average age at slaughter 2 years
Average carcase weight 300 kg
Average sales price (after expenses) £1.50/kg
Average grad 0+3
£450 per animal x 50 £22,500

Total £22,500

Subsidies:

Suckler Cow Premium
50 @ £115 (assumes Objective 1 supplement) £5,750
50 @ £21 (extensification) £1,050

Beef Premia
25 @ £76 first stage £1,900
25 @ £21 first stage extensification £525
25 @ £76 second stage £1,900
25 @ £21 second stage extensification £525
50 @ £17 Slaughter Premium £850
25 @ £20 Heifer Slaughter Premium £500

Total £13,000

Total Income £35,500

Costs

Cow depreciation £1,250
£25 per cow per year
Concentrates
£50 per head for cow + calf + store £2,250
Veterinary/Medicines
£5 per animal per year £750
AI Fees
50 @ £15 £750
Building Depreciation/Repairs
£50,000 @ 2% depreciation + 1% maintenance £1,500
Machinery Depreciation/Maintenance
£50,000 @ 8% depreciation + 2% maintenance £5,000
Labour
Average NI industrial wage £16,000
Fertiliser
120 acres @ 150kg/acre @ £110/tonne £2,000
Fuel, Electricity, Telephone £1,000

£30,500

Profit (Return on Assets)

Income £35,500
Costs £30,500

Profit £5,000

Asset Values

Assume asset values as follows:

Stock

50 cows @ £400 £20,000
50 calves @ £200 £10,000
50 stores @ £300 £15,000

£45,000

Suckler Cow Quota
50 @ £250 £12,000

Machinery £50,000

Total Non-Land Assets £107,500

Even to invest these "liquid assets" at current rates of just over 5% this would yield profits of c. £5,375 as against the profit of £5,000 shown above.

What is value of land?

Conclusions:

1. To collect extensification premia as set out in the model, the minimum area of land required is calculated as:-

2 livestock units per hectare

95 livestock units total

47.5 hectares required
(approx. 120 acres @ 2.47 acres = 1 hectare)

2. Land used for beef production has a value equivalent only to the investment necessary to generate average industrial wage of £16,000 per annum. This realistically cannot be more than £1,000-£1,500 per acre. Even assuming that, no other job is available which is a suitable match for the skills of the beef farmer.

Appendix J

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND MEAT EXPORTERS' ASSOCIATION

5 January 2000

You wrote to our Chairman, Mr Colin Duffy on 17th December 1999, regarding the inquiry into the debt in the agricultural and fisheries sectors in NI. I am responding to your letter on behalf of Mr Duffy and the NI Meat Exporters' Association.

1. BACKGROUND INFORMATION

The membership of the NI Meat Exporters' Association is made up of the majority of the EC Export approved beef and lamb slaughtering and processing companies in Northern Ireland.

2. DEBT INQUIRY

While it is the brief of your committee to ascertain the level and extent of debt in the Agriculture and Fisheries sectors, that is not a subject which this Association feels competent to discuss. Our remarks will therefore be confined to pointers for the future which we believe will contribute to a strong rural economy and ensure a viable rural programme and community life.

3. DEBT RELIEF

This Association believes that now is the time for major changes to take place in Agriculture to safeguard the rural community life. Over the past three years we have seen the Pig Industry almost wiped out. This has not just been a NI problem, in fact it is a world-wide problem with over production in every country in the world. In the light of this it is not terribly sensible to give producers false hopes of better things to come when the problem exists to the magnitude it does and on such a world wide scale. Local consumers may talk of supporting home produce but when it comes to value for money that philosophy tends to be forgotten.

The beef industry is not all that different. Over 70 pieces of legislation on top of what was there before, have been introduced to the processing sector since 1996 and all of them have added cost upon cost to the industry, leaving NI one of the most uncompetitive regions of Europe. The fact that so much red tape surrounds any attempt to begin to market our way out of the situation is strangling the industry from its full export development potential. Currently less than 50% of cattle in NI have export status due to documentation and administrative problems on farms. This is a very poor image of our quality standards and our ability to demonstrate to consumers a high degree of management. It does nothing to instil confidence in those quality niche markets that we once enjoyed prior to BSE. No matter how good we think we are we need to set our sights much higher. Like every other part of the food industry farmers must accept that more accurate paperwork and maintenance of records is a necessary part of any future development of the food industry.

In recent years in the sheep sector over 50% of the annual lamb crop is smuggled to the ROI leaving processors here in a weak development position to add value and thus improve returns to farmers. In 1999 around 580,000 lambs were processed in NI out of an annual crop of around 1.5 million. The loss of levy revenue to LMC on these lambs is also a major financial problem, money which is needed by the LMC for promotional activity in respect of the sheep sector.

4. FUTURE STRATEGIES

Any future strategies to improve the situation for producers and processors must take account of the demands of the consumer whether we like it or not. There is little point in producing anything that has to be sold at a discount price just to get rid of it. All future production should be linked to quality market criteria so that the highest prices can be achieved for the maximum amount of product rather than 50% of the right product subsidising 50% of what somebody just wants to produce. For instance last year between April and September 37,700 cattle were classified in the undesirable grades for any quality specification and had to be simply traded at discount prices to find an outlet for them. While this is mainly a breed problem a further 9,400 cattle in the same period were produced at fat class 4H or 5 totally outside any quality specification and purely as a result of farm management. These facts have to be faced and action proportionate to the problem taken to improve the quality of NI production.

5. QUALITY DEMANDS

Traceability, Farm Quality Assurance, Livestock Chain Management, Farm Auditing and the Red Meat Strategy, are all part of the future food production systems and there needs to be a much more pro-active attitude on behalf of everyone to secure our own future. It may not be attractive and it may be more bothersome, but if we cannot deliver what the consumer wants then there is no point in crying for Government help. It is absolutely essential that all farmers take seriously the demands being forced upon the industry, no matter how unpalatable, to ensure that NI can have the edge in the food industry of the future. It is either that or close the door. It is no longer adequate to adopt the attitude of "I'll do it my way".

6. THE CASUALTY FACTOR

Like New Zealand and every other Agricultural country in the world that has been forced to grapple with the same problems, it has to be accepted that those who choose to ignore the demands of the consumer are writing their own exit strategy from the industry. There will be casualties but it will be confined to those who do not want to keep abreast of an efficient 21st century food production industry. It is therefore our opinion that the Government should introduce a forceful rural education programme urging everyone in the rural areas to meet the challenges of the future and rise to the demands and standards being made by those who ultimately buy their produce.

7. THE SUCCESS FACTOR

No-one has any desire to see the demise of the rural hinterland and therefore the proper management and development must be in place so that production can be adjusted to meet the current demands of quality and consistency. Farming structures probably need to change to meet the demands of the future and we believe that there is a viable future for those who decide they want to be part of it. It is our opinion too that this is the best way to insure against future debt in this sector. We accept that some of these points may be far reaching but we also believe that we do not do anyone any favours by just moving from one crisis to another. There needs to be planned development based on quality production to ensure a sustainable rural future. Production is currently fragmented and there is little by way of co-operative production and marketing. There needs to be major changes in this area so that input costs can be reduced further still to the benefit of everyone.

While these points may on the face of it seem to be a bit radical and far reaching nevertheless we believe that there has to be radical changes for everyone if we are to establish a future for NI Agriculture.

Yours sincerely

T C MATHERS

Appendix K

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: ULSTER AGRICULTURAL ORGANISATION SOCIETY LTD

14th March 2000

Thank you for sending me the terms of reference for the enquiry by the committee.

As discussed on the telephone they are probably not relevant to our Biogas project. However I do believe that we can respond to the final term of reference by outlining positive steps that have been and can be taken by producers to help alleviate the situation. It will not happen, though, without commitment and support.

Three quotations come to mind,

1890 Horace Plunkett 'Co-operatives are the children of distress'

1962 President J F Kennedy 'Farmers are the only businessmen who buy retail and sell wholesale'

1990 UAOS Conference 'Self help or self destruct'

We would be delighted to make a short presentation outlining the positive contribution marketing and purchasing co-operatives have made and can make to:

(a) the farm income;

(b) off farm employment opportunities;

(c) supply chain development.

This presentation could be combined with the one on biogas.

We look forward to the reconvening of the committee and the opportunity to put forward positive and innovative ideas.

Yours sincerely

Ian Murray
Chief Executive
UAOS LTD

Appendix L

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND POULTRY FEDERATION

13 January 2000

Re: Enquiry into Debt in Agriculture

You have written individually to several of our members within the poultry meat sector. As the representative body of our industry we have been asked to formulate a common response. Individual members of our association may also wish to highlight issues separately. We would wish to make the following points.

  • The levels of loss which have been sustained in the poultry meat sector over the last 2-3 years are as serious as the much publicised situation within the pig sector. The sole reason that this has not received the same publicity is that the losses have been carried by the processing companies. Producers have been sheltered from the hardship of the market place under the terms of their producer contracts with processors. However the current situation is unsustainable. If the current level of losses continue and any of the three larger companies were to go out of business, the consequences will be sudden and dramatic. The processing sector employs over 5000 people directly. In addition over 1000 farms derive some or all of their income from production of meat or breeding birds. These farms tend to be small family enterprises which would have little in the way of alternatives should their poultry unit fail; especially so with agriculture in such a depressed state.
  • It must be stressed that the above scenario is not just industry scare-mongering. Recently there have been several major failures in the UK broiler sector (eg Marshall Food Group, Penwoods and Pershaws).
  • Our best estimate of the level of indebtedness of poultry meat producers to cover bank borrowing and outstanding feed, day-olds and other miscellaneous items is £40m/£50m.
  • Our best intelligence reports confirm that the Northern Ireland Poultry Meat industry is losing approximately £12m per annum.
  • We understand the indebtedness of egg producers is in the region of £15m/£20m.
  • The industry has been placed in this unprofitable situation through no fault of its own. In terms of physical efficiency, production is amongst the most efficient in the world. For example, the Northern Ireland farmer uses some 14% less feed/kg of meat produced than in the USA (source Agristats). The problems in our industry have been brought about by the following:

1. Strength of Sterling:

As with many sectors of agriculture the strong pound has resulted in a flood of imported European and third world product entering the UK at prices below local production costs. Such imports now represent nearly 40% of UK poultry meat consumption (source BPMF) compared with the situation a few years ago where an exportable surplus was produced. Indeed the processors in Northern Ireland have been obliged to use a significant amount of imported product for further processing, without which their financial problems would be much worse. Local production levels have been maintained only by virtue of the expanding overall market, subsidy of farmers by the processors and some success in developing niche markets for speciality type products such as free range and organic.

2. Feed Costs:

Northern Ireland has long suffered from a relatively higher feed cost. This stems from transport costs in importing raw materials and higher energy cost in the manufacture and distribution of feed. It is estimated that these additional costs amount to some £15/tonne compared with GB or mainland Europe. For many years the industry has managed to absorb this premium through extra efficiency and production advantages based on the high health status of its stock. However, it has now an additional cost burden which uniquely penalises the Northern Ireland industry.

3. Additional Costs:

The industry has been burdened with a plethora of additional costs in recent years which are damaging to our industry in a market where we compete with imported product, especially from non European sources, which does not have to incur these costs. Examples include the ban on the use of meat and bone meal, on the use of antibiotic growth promoters and legislation relating to animal welfare, traceability and environmental protection. The industry does not disagree with the need for some of these measures, especially where they impact on food safety, but we find it iniquitous that imported products are able to evade the need to comply with these requirements and the on costs stemming from them.

We hope we have made clear that a very real threat to the continued existence, at the very least, of the primary production sector of the Northern Ireland poultry industry exists. Such a loss would deal a savage blow to the local economy. The important role of the small family farm which our industry supports should not be underestimated. It both assists in maintaining a viable rural economy and sustaining a strongly work focused labour force which is also available to other local industries.

We request that the Assembly should urgently consider the introduction of the following measures:

1. Compensation mechanism for currency:

The industry recognises that assistance to producers has been made in an attempt to offset the current crisis in agriculture under Commission Regulation (EC) No2808/98. These forms of agrimonetary compensation to producers are not directly available to the intensive sector. Additionally we do not see the current remedies as being adequate either in scale or nature to redress the problem. In the past the financial traumas affecting trade in the food industry arising from movements in currency values have been addressed by a system of "Monetary Compensatory Amounts" (MCA's). This system was developed by the commission in the 1970's under Regulation EC 974/71. The aim of this regulation was to "remove any advantage or disadvantage to traders which can result purely from currency changes, and to act as a balancing factor in trade between countries with different currency values". We argue that the current situation is so grave that the application of a scheme along these lines, which directly relates to trade, rather than to producers is urgently required.

2. Feed Price Allowance:

We suggest a two stage programme in this respect.

  • Firstly a scheme aimed at overcoming the differentiation between GB and NI perhaps via creating intervention storage within Northern Ireland or allowing imports of third country grains at tariffs which result in Northern Ireland prices replicating average UK prices - (this type of scheme is already in operation in Spain and Portugal and details are attached as Annex 1).
  • In the medium term we should seek to replace direct price support for cereals with a support system for farmers which is not based on a guaranteed price for grain. This would allow grain prices to fall to world market prices and thus allow our poultry farmers to fully exploit their competitive advantage in terms of production efficiency.

It seems anomalous that the end product of the intensive livestock production chain exists in a situation where it is exposed to world-wide competition, whereas an intermediary in this chain ie, the cereal producer, enjoys the luxury of a guaranteed price for his product.

3. Interest relief scheme:

We request that grant aid towards interest payments is made available to the poultry industry. We understand that such aid is under serious consideration for pig producers in the Republic of Ireland and may also become available in Northern Ireland.

4. Support for development:

We request an increase in the allocation of funding towards assistance into capital expenditure, research and development and training for companies involved in the sector. This will help the industry maintain its position as a leader in innovation and product and process development.

The Northern Ireland Poultry Industry is highly integrated and is recognised world wide to be an extremely efficient industry.

Unlike many parts of the world practically all production is carried out by bona-fide farmers.

The nature and scale of the problem is such that political input will be required to redress the problem.

In the light of these extreme problems we request a meeting with the Chairman or with the Agricultural Committee as soon as possible to discuss these matters further.

Yours sincerely

NORTHERN IRELAND POULTRY FEDERATION

W P O'Kane OBE
Chairman
Enc.
1. Summary.
2. Annex 1 Details of "Abamiento System"

NORTHERN IRELAND POULTRY FEDERATION

Submission by Northern Ireland Poultry Federation to
Committee for Agriculture and rural development

Re: Enquiry into Debt in Agriculture

SUMMARY

The poultry industry is the largest employer in the Northern Ireland food sector. The sector has been unprofitable for several years.

The reason that this has not been highlighted is that farmers contracted to the industry have been supported by the processing companies.

With a level of loss now estimated at over £12m/annum, the situation is reaching crisis point.

The reasons for these losses are detailed.

Suggestions for remedial measures are also outlined.

Annex 1

Details of "Abamiento" system for maize/corn to Spain and Portugal

  • This scheme is operated by the EU and grants the above countries the right to import non EU grain.
  • Normally such imports incur a tariff which would result in the net price to the end user being much higher and so uncompetitive with grain of EU origin.
  • In this case a concession allows import of a fixed quota (currently 2.2 million tonnes/year) at a much reduced tariff.
  • The tariff is set so that the imported grain is sold at an identical price to that prevailing in Spain or Portugal at that time.
  • Thus the price paid to local producers is not disrupted but the country is not disadvantaged by having to use more expensive imported grain.
  • It is our understanding that had NI had direct representation at Brussels available in the past, then an equivalent scheme to that in Spain and Portugal would have been open to NI.

Appendix M

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND GRAIN TRADE ASSOCIATION

January 2000

Following a number of lengthy reports NIGTA wishes to respond to the single question of examining alternative proposals for addressing problem of debt.

All other issues have been addressed in the past and NIGTA would suggest that the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is best placed to produce any verifiable statistical information.

NIGTA would also contend that they are not aware of any initiatives that are being taken by the Department to alleviate debt.

NIGTA would suggest that urgent short-term measures are desperately needed to allow enough time to address the longer-term problems facing the industry.

Short-term measures should be focused on reducing the burden of debt and its ancillary costs.

NIGTA would seek a change in attitude whereby DARD should continually utilise all resources to find solutions rather than emphasise obstacles.

NIGTA would request the Minister and all members of Government utilise ingenuity in their approach to problem solving.

As secondary bankers to agriculture NIGTA members are keen to play a full role in any discussions to alleviate debt believing that there is an opportunity to reduce farm input costs further if the debt burden can be realigned.

Short term proposals

NIGTA contends that the opportunity exists to seek special terms for Northern Ireland to assist the Peace Process, but it also contends that opportunity exists to utilise self-help to reduce the problems associated with the debt burden. Immediate consideration should be given to the following:

(1) Emergency assistance for the pig industry to alleviate the losses incurred as a direct result of the fire at Lovell and Christmas. Losses of £10 million were directly attributed to the fire and were over and above the losses incurred as a result of a falling market. This figure is established by measuring the normal differential of Northern Ireland versus UK prior to the fire against the additional differential following the fire. NIGTA would contend that the European Union should recognise the benefit of backing this proposal, as close association with the Republic of Ireland on this issue would demonstrate that the Peace Process could bring advantages.

The current DARD response is that the Welfare Scheme addressed this issue, that is not the case as it only addressed the Welfare problem on farm, and it was never anticipated that the losses directly because of the fire would reach £10 million.

(2) Maximum effort by all Government departments and the IDB in particular to find a way of offering direct assistance to the poultry processors to help them retain their Northern Ireland production base.

(3) To seek a regional status to allow Monetary Compensation to be paid in Northern Ireland.

(4) To pursue the proposal of an interest relief package for Northern Ireland farmers.

(5) To immediately utilise the Ministerial position to bring about round table discussions of influential people that could materially assist the farming industry.

(6) To introduce and support an influential body based on the outline of An Bord Bia.

Longer term

To develop relations with the 'achiever' Nations in Europe to bring the Northern Ireland dimension into focus.

To develop dialogue that enhances the principals of fair-trading within the European agricultural policy.

To develop dialogue with other nations to seek support to reduce the price of grain to world prices, thus allowing the competitive production of meat products within Europe.

Appendix N

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: NORTHERN IRELAND GRAIN TRADE ASSOCIATION

June 2000

Views on integration/re-organisation of the agricultural industry

The integration and partnerships within the Poultry sector have addressed the issue of minimising cost. We would recognise that integration and/or partnerships can help sustain businesses through the difficult times.

A facilitator with a 'can do' philosophy within the Government and Department of Agriculture and Rural Development could play a leading role in bringing food industry players together for the common good.

Financial support should be sought to encourage integration.

What Government and Farmers can do to make the industry more competitive

Northern Ireland faces, currency, geographical and input cost disadvantages.

While losing money, the Poultry sector has faced these problems without stopping their technical advance and product innovation.

(A) The single biggest issue facing the industry is currency strength with particular reference to Northern Ireland, because of the land border with the Republic of Ireland. Mechanisms already exist within an EC context (monetary compensation) and where mechanisms do not exist they could be sought by government eg the Republic of Ireland's scheme in 1983 which was geared towards exporting companies.

(B) The Government should appoint a facilitator with appropriate resources to seek out opportunities and bring them to the support of the farming industry. The specialist knowledge held within DARD should be utilised as a positive force rather than the negative force that we have seen in the past. Opportunities for co-operation with other member States will occur and a facilitator working closely with the agricultural industry should be tasked to find a way through the difficulties that will also arise.

The agricultural industry needs to know that they have access to a positive thinking office within DARD. The most recent example of what might have been achieved by this approach is demonstrated by the £1m debt plan to assist the pig producers in the ROI, who were affected by the Lovell and Christmas fire.

(C) The farming sector and all manufacturing industries within Northern Ireland suffer from the high cost of electricity.

We would propose that Northern Ireland should be made a special case when applying the Climate Change Levy. The level set for Northern Ireland should be reduced to reflect the premium already being paid in Northern Ireland.

(D) The haulage and fuel industry is being decimated by the difference in fuel prices across our land border and this is having a major knock-on effect to the agricultural industry.

We would propose that Northern Ireland should seek a dispensation on diesel and road tax, for use in Northern Ireland, to allow prices to equate to ROI prices.

(E) The intensive sector in Northern Ireland face input costs of between 5% and 10% higher than GB, they face input costs of between 15% and 20% higher than the USA.

The grain regime in the EU has an intervention base price that keeps the price of grain high to support grain farmers and the EU uses restitutions to allow the export of that grain at World prices. The result is that the livestock industry pays an inflated price for its raw material and gets no assistance on exports or protection on competing imports.

In the USA the grain farmer gets world price plus a guarantee up to a minimum price. The livestock industry, get grain at world price cheapening their produce and assisting their export potential.

The Government should seek to match this system allowing the livestock producers an even playing field in a bid to export value added product.

Failure to match the American system will result in the collapse of our intensive sectors in the longer term.

(F) A long term Government Loan Scheme which would offer low interest rates and an opportunity for farmers to re-structure their business should be considered.

(G) The other issue which would make a difference would be the effective labelling of food products as having been produced in the UK (primary production). Existing proposals have been watered down due primarily to supermarket pressure. The Food Standards Agency should help educate the consumer regarding countries where products are sourced and the production methods in those areas.

The quality of produce being produced is it competitive?

Quality produce is being sold to the buyer and is therefore competitive, however the producer may be making a loss to achieve the sale.

Poultry imports are achievable at a significant discount over home produced products, and may not have been produced to the same standards as this country.

Many factors mitigate against a GB producer and additional costs burden a NI producer. Some of the added costs are Government imposed, the Government should pay compensation when they exceed EU standards.

Across a range of parameters from welfare standards (pig industry) to bacteriological status of product (poultry) to meat quality (beef and BSE status) the produce of the province is of an extremely high standard. NI cannot compete with commodity prices, only niche markets are sustainable for home-grown produce.

Where the processor fits into the price gap from the farm gate to the consumer

While the food retail index has followed inflation over the last decade, farm incomes and processor incomes have seen a major decline.

The evidence suggests that processors are losing money or not making an acceptable return. This is demonstrated by losses within the major processors in Northern Ireland and the knowledge that major PLC processors such as Glanbia, Kerry, Malton would welcome discussion with any concern interested in stepping into processing.

The contribution Co-operatives can make to the industry

Partnerships and integration within businesses can offer efficiency, however co-operatives agenda does not always equal efficiency.

Appendix O

COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
INQUIRY INTO DEBT IN THE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
WRITTEN SUBMISSION BY: WILSON'S COUNTRY LTD

23 February 2000

Please find below information required by the Committee following the proceedings on Friday, 11th February 2000.

POTATOES SOURCED BY WILSON'S COUNTRY

August 98 - July 99

 

NI

ROI

GB

GB M.PIPER

CYPRUS

TOTAL

%

71

11

5

11

2

 

August 99 - July 00 (estimated sales)

%

73

10

5

10

2

 

NOTES:

1. Product from ROI is used to introduce the early new set-skin season and bridge the gap between the local old season and new season.

2. Maris Piper is difficult to grow in NI due to common scab and slug susceptibility, yet it is recognised by consumers as a premium tasting potato.

3. Cyprus potatoes are offered to consumers as a new potato before our local new potatoes are in season.

4. 5% GB product is imported to supplement our local crop.

5. As a company, we are actively involved in working with growers to develop local growing of Maris Piper and extending our local season, hence the increase in NI % for this season.

Regards.

Angus Wilson

Managing Director

List of Other Relevant Papers

List of Other Relevant Papers

Ulster Farmers' Union - Paper on issues to be addressed in the local agri-food supply chain

Assembly Research and Library Services - Paper on Farmgate and Retail Prices

Competition Commission's Supermarkets Inquiry - Issues Statement

ULSTER FARMERS' UNION
ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED IN THE LOCAL AGRI-FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN

The Ulster Farmers' Union would highlight the following key issues which farmers feel need to be addressed in the local agri-food supply chain.

  • Transparency

Farmers are greatly concerned at the huge mark up between farmgate and retail prices for many commodities. For example top grade beef cattle are valued at c. 174p/Kg. In the supermarket sirloin steak retails at c. £11.80/Kg. Pig producers receive about c. 68p/Kg for their pigs. Pork fillet retails at c. £8.00/Kg. More transparency is needed in the Agri-food chain to ensure fair pricing structures are in place.

  • Labelling

Proper labelling of Northern Ireland produce is crucial. The retail sector has not properly addressed this issue. Primary produce can be imported to NI, processed and labelled as "sourced in Northern Ireland". The local pig industry has suffered particularly severely with exceptionally high welfare standards not being promoted. What plans have retailers to clarify labelling procedures?

  • Commitment

The current strength of sterling has seen more and more produce imported to Northern Ireland. Are retailers committed to Northern Ireland suppliers and the quality they can provide, or is price the key factor? Can they confirm that the quality and welfare standards of imported product matches local produce?

  • Cost

Costs of production for farmers in Northern Ireland are extremely high. Compliance to a whole range of quality assurance schemes has heaped extra cost on producers with little marketing advantage apparent and certainly no premium. Currently a farmer in Northern Ireland could spend over £600.00 registering with Quality Assurance Schemes. What future co-ordination can be introduced to maximise the benefit of these schemes and minimise the administration/cost/auditing involved?

  • Supply chain management

Trust and confidence is at a very low ebb among producers in many commodities. What plans have retailers to instigate proper supply chain management and build up a more positive relationship with the primary producer?

  • Regional Policy

We believe decisions taken by central policy makers, based in GB, do not always reflect the situation "on the ground" in Northern Ireland. We believe the major supermarket multiples should adopt a regional policy to better reflect market conditions in the Province.

  • Promotions

We are very concerned that the cost of ad hoc promotions, particularly for fresh produce, appears to be passed back to the producer. We feel this is an unacceptable situation. Local farmers have invested heavily to meet the high standards demanded by the major multiples. Margins are now being squeezed to unsustainable levels and the impact of promotions exacerbates the problem.

ASSEMBLY RESEARCH AND LIBRARY SERVICES
FARMGATE AND RETAIL PRICES

11 January 2000

Martin Wilson

Clerk of Agriculture & Rural Development Committee

Re: Farmgate and Retail Prices

The attached tables (from an August 1999 House of Commons Research Paper) compare changes in agricultural producer prices between 1995 and 1998 with changes in retail prices over the same period. Both tables are in index form (with 1995, as the base year, set at 100).

While it is difficult to match the different items in the tables exactly, it is clear from the data that farmgate prices in the UK have fallen significantly while retail prices have generally increased. In the one area where there was a major fall in retail prices - unprocessed potatoes (-27%) - there is notably a much larger fall in the corresponding producer price - root crops (-39%). It seems that the fall in prices paid to farmers is not reflected by the prices that consumers pay in the shops.

Producer prices for Northern Ireland (see attached Table 2.8)have suffered an even greater overall fall - 27% between 1995 and 1998 compared with a 22% fall in UK producer prices over the period. As UK retail prices also apply to Northern Ireland this would suggests that the disparity between farmgate and retail prices is greater in Northern Ireland.

I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if you require any further information.

RESEARCH PAPER 99/77

Producer prices have in most cases fallen since 1995;

Index of Producer Prices of Agricultural Products (UK)
(API) 1995=100

 

1995

1996

1997

1998

change 95-98

Cereals

Root crops

Fresh fruit

Fresh vegetables

Seeds

Flowers and plants

Other crop products

Crop products

Animals (for slaughter and export)

Milk

Eggs

Animals & animal products

Total of all products

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

100.0

101.6

59.3

112.2

99.2

85.6

106.9

105.7

92.4

102.5

100.4

119.6

102.4

98.5

81.4

39.7

102.6

87.1

64.3

107.1

95.3

76.6

90.7

88.6

102.6

90.3

85.1

70.5

60.7

102.9

96.7

62.5

101.7

94.5

78.6

75.2

77.6

94.4

77.0

77.7

-29%

-39%

3%

-3%

-37%

2%

-6%

-21%

-25%

-22%

-6%

-23%

-22%

Average annual figures for calendar year
Source: MAFF, 16 April 1999 at website wee.maff.gov.uk

While retail prices have remained steady;

Retail food prices (UK)
RPI Component 1995=100

1995

1996

1997

1998

change 95-98

Bread

Cereals

Biscuits & cakes

Beef

Home-killed lamb

Pork

Bacon

Poultry

Butter

Cheese

Eggs

Fresh milk

Unprocessed potatoes

Fresh Vegetables

Fresh fruit

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

1001.8

100.9

103.7

101

114.2

120.7

113.3

105.7

108.5

105.8

110

101.6

78.9

98.3

12.5

100.4

100.9

104.9

98.8

113.1

117.6

117.6

106

109

108.7

110

101.6

54.9

91.2

105

99.3

101

106

96.9

105

104.4

109.2

104.7

110.7

104.7

109

101.7

73.1

94.9

106.7

-1%

1%

6%

-3%

5%

4%

9%

5%

11%

5%

9%

2%

-27%

-5%

7%

Source: ONS Database (series DOAA, DOAB, DOAC,DOAD, DOAF,

DOAG, DOAH, DAOI, DOAM, DOAO, DOAP, DOAQ, DOAY, DOBA, DOBC)

It is difficult to match exactly commodity to product, but in general, while retail food prices for bread, milk, pork, lamb, cereals and even beef have changed relatively slightly and in most cases risen from 1995 to 1998, producer prices for certain commodities are showing significant falls. Producer milk prices have fallen by about animals for slaughter or export by around a quarter, cereals are down by 29% and root crops by 39%.

Table 2.7 Average producer prices1 of agricultural products

£ per unit

Unit

1994

1995

1996

1997

1998

(Provisional)

Finished steers, heifers and young bulls2,3

head

698

718

615

509

418

Finished steers, heifers and young bulls2,3

kg dwt

2.23

2.22

1.89

1.61

1.37

Calves slaughtered or exported2

head

159

154

89

69

62

Culled cows and bulls3

head

490

518

442

333

257

Culled cows and bulls3

kg dwt

1.75

1.77

1.62

1.33

1.08

Store cattle exported

head

510

528

456

417

327

Finished sheep and lambs

head

43.76

42.75

53.52

50.25

38.77

Finished sheep and lambs

kg dwt

2.15

2.04

2.56

2.45

1.96

Finished clean pigs4

head

65.79

78.92

95.27

73.75

50.60

Finished clean pigs4

kg dwt

0.95

95.27

1.31

1.03

0.71

Culled sows and boars

head

98

119

130

100

49

Milk5

litre

0.212

0.254

0.240

0.206

0.193

Eggs for consumption

dozen

0.395

0.397

0.476

0.349

0.295

Broilers

kg lwt

0.548

0.549

0.585

0.574

0.530

Potatoes:
Ware maincrop6
Seed


tonne
tonne


119
136


173
212


76
158


63
69


110
105

Barley

tonne

112

119

116

90

84

Wheat

tonne

114

124

125

96

88

Mushrooms

tonne

1,190

1,210

1,165

1,146

1,150

Apples

tonne

119

138

158

214

275

1. After deduction of marketing charges, commissions and levies, where applicable.

2. Includes calves processed under the Calf Processing Aid Scheme.

3. Includes cattle slaughtered under the Over Thirty Months Scheme.

4. Includes pigs slaughtered under the 1998 Pig Welfare Slaughter Scheme.

5. Before deduction of superlevy, if applicable.

6. Does not include early potatoes. Therefore, the price differs from that quoted in Table 2.26.

Table 2.8 Indices of producer prices

Indices: 1995 = 100

 

Weights2

1994

1995

1996

1997

1998
(Provisional)

Finished steers and heifers3

247

100

100

85

73

62

Culled cows and bulls3

42

99

100

92

75

61

Store cattle exported

4

97

100

86

79

62

Finished sheep and lambs

56

105

100

125

120

96

Finished clean pigs

91

86

100

118

93

64

Culled sows and boars

2

83

100

107

80

41

Milk

307

83

100

95

81

76

Eggs for consumption

25

99

100

20

88

74

Broilers

60

100

100

107

105

97

Potatoes:
Ware maincrop
Seed


25
11


69
64


100
100


44
74


3
33


6
50

Barley

23

94

100

98

76

70

Wheat

7

92

100

101

78

71

Mushrooms

25

98

100

96

95

95

Apples

5

86

100

115

155

200

Total products index2

932

92

100

96

83

73

1. The indices relate to prices from which marketing expenses have been deducted.

2. The total products index is calculated by taking into account the significance of each item in the base period (1995). This is shown in the column of weights. Since only the main items of output are included, the total of their weights does not cover items such as production grants, compensation payments and gross fixed capital formation, it should not be regarded as a 'deflator' to be used in estimating the volume of output. (A series giving the volume of gross output is given in Table 2.3.)

3. Includes cattle slaughtered under the Over Thirty Months Scheme.

COMPETITION COMMISSION
SUPPLY OF GROCERIES FROM MULTIPLE STORES MONOPOLY INQUIRY
Issues Statement

The Competition Commission has written to 24 companies in connection with its inquiry into supermarkets, describing the progress made so far, identifying the issues which it has been examining and highlighting those which it wishes to raise with some of the companies concerned (see paragraph 12) at a series of hearings during March.

In accordance with recent practice the Commission is publishing this statement summarizing the main points raised with the companies, in order that those interested may give us their views. In view of the wide public interest in the inquiry and the uncertainty which it has generated, this statement indicates the Commission's current priorities in the inquiry.

This is, however, an interim stage in the investigation and no conclusions have as yet been reached on any matter.

The Commission has received over 200 submissions, held 35 hearings with interested parties mainly in London but also in Belfast and Birmingham; and obtained questionnaire response data from consumers, all the main grocery retailers, nearly 400 suppliers of groceries to supermarkets and 50 local authorities. It has analysed a range of critical aspects including price levels, profitability and efficiency; price competition locally and nationally; international comparisons of prices and profitability; relationships with suppliers; transmission of price changes from suppliers through to consumers, acquisition of land for supermarkets and the impact of the planning regime in the UK. The Commission has also looked at a number of other social and environment issues relating to the retailing of groceries.

Jurisdiction

The Commission has provisionally found that all the companies to whom it has written belong to one or both of two complex monopoly groups for the purposes of the Fair Trading Act 1973, in relation to the supply of groceries in the UK by supermarkets (paragraph 12 identifies these companies). One complex monopoly derives from the pricing of groceries sold by supermarkets to consumers and the other from the relationship between supermarkets and their suppliers. These findings are provisional (the companies are being invited to comment on them) and carry no implications as to whether any of the companies is operating against the public interest.

Public interest considerations

Where the Commission concludes that a complex monopoly exists, it is required to decide whether any matter arising from its investigation operates against the public interest. Below are set out the matters the Commission will wish to raise with the companies before reaching its conclusions.

1. Market definition

The Commission is primarily interested in the so-called 'one-stop shop' pattern of grocery shopping in which consumers can buy most or all of their weekly grocery requirements in a single visit to a supermarket. In this context, its provisional view is that the market comprises a large number of local catchment areas within which consumers can reach a supermarket in a relatively short period of time. However, the Commission will also wish to explore the significance of regional or national market shares of the companies concerned; and whether Northern Ireland constitutes a separate market.

2. Company profitability

The Commission has examined a range of different measures of supermarkets' overall profitability based on margins, returns on capital, and cash flow analysis, and trends in them. As appropriate, it has compared these to companies' cost of capital and returns in supermarkets in other countries. Its initial view is that, while in some respects overall profitability performance has been quite strong, there is at most only limited evidence of excessive profitability, as measured, being achieved. The Commission will, however, seek further clarification at the hearings.

3. Prices

Evidence obtained by the Commission suggests that the trend of grocery prices in recent years, while upwards, has been significantly below that for prices generally in the UK, leading to a reduction in the price of groceries in real terms. Other evidence still under consideration suggests that the trend has also been lower than for grocery prices in some comparable European countries. A detailed survey of the prices of a wide range of grocery products in several thousand stores in the UK and certain other European countries is being conducted, the results of which will in due course be submitted to the companies for comment. The Commission is also looking at data indicating how individual supermarkets' prices compare to each other.

4. Consumer satisfaction

The Commission has reviewed a number of surveys of consumers' views of supermarkets. In addition, in order to obtain an independent view and to cover certain gaps in the evidence already available, the Commission has carried out its own detailed survey. This has been used to provide insights into a number of the issues described below, but the overall picture which these surveys provide appears generally to be one of high levels of consumer satisfaction with the performance of supermarkets in the UK.

Main points for the hearings

Within this context, the Commission has identified a number of points which it wishes to raise with supermarkets. These are:

5. Market power

The Commission wishes to raise with the companies whether individual supermarkets have some local market power in catchment areas where there are few or even no competing supermarket stores. Linked to this is the question referred to in paragraph 6(a) below, whether the extent of local market competition affects the prices which consumers pay.

6. Price competition

Surveys indicate that consumers have regard to range, quality, service and price when buying groceries. It is primarily matters relating to pricing which the Commission wishes to raise, including:

a. whether price competition might be excessively concentrated on a relatively small number of frequently purchased items; and at stores which face the most local competition;

b. whether price changes by suppliers have been rapidly and fully passed through to consumers; and

c. whether the pattern of prices and margins across different types of product, including branded and own label products, is related to costs to the extent that would be expected in a fully competitive market. This would include products persistently sold at a loss, which may benefit consumers in the short term but which may distort competition and consumer choice, and may adversely affect the supply or availability of such products in the longer term.

7. Costs and efficiency

The Commission is also considering the cost structure and efficiency of supermarkets. Three issues which arise from this are:

a. Whether some supermarkets have been able to maintain too high a level of costs, with consumers paying more than would otherwise be the case.

b. The extent of economies of scale in the industry, at store level but more particularly at regional and national level, and what impact this has on prices and competition.

c. Whether some forms of competition between supermarkets, primarily for sites and in provision of any facilities which do not cover their costs, has unduly raised prices to consumers.

8. Land and location issues

The Commission has been looking at prices paid for land acquired for supermarket development and at prices paid for land acquired for other types of retail development. It wishes to explore whether prices paid for land for supermarket development are higher and if so, whether such higher prices sustain, or are sustained by, higher prices for grocery products than would otherwise be the case. This could result in high prices even though profits were not excessive. A related issue is whether supermarkets seek to restrict competitors' access to suitable sites for stores.

9. Relationships with suppliers

The Commission has received evidence from both supermarkets and suppliers on their commercial relationships. It will wish to discuss whether supermarkets have excessive buying power or not, and if so, whether this:

a. lowers the price of products to consumers;

b. prevents efficient suppliers from earning a reasonable return;

c. leads to higher prices than otherwise of products sold by suppliers to other retailers;

d. damages the longer-term competitiveness of the grocery supply base, or some parts of it, in the UK; and

e. reduces consumer choice.

In particular, because the great majority of groceries are bought from supermarkets, fair and reasonable access to supermarket shelves may often be a precondition for an efficient supplier to survive and prosper. The Commission will therefore wish to focus specifically on the terms and conditions governing access to supermarket shelves and whether these are in any way unfairly discriminatory, either as between different suppliers or as between supermarkets' own-label products and those of other suppliers.

Other issues

10. Social, environmental and planning matters

The Commission has sought views on the objectives, role and impact of the planning regime in the UK in relation to supermarkets. These, together with questions of access to grocery outlets by lower income and less mobile consumers, the impact of large grocery retail developments on local communities and related environmental issues, will also be raised.

11. Recent and prospective developments

The Commission will wish to discuss with the companies the most recent, and prospective, performance of the supermarkets, and the extent to which the nature and degree of competition may be changing. This will include the emergence of Internet and other forms of home shopping and the entry of Wal-Mart into the UK market, and any effects these may be expected to have on the competitive situation.

The companies

12. The Commission has considered the market positions of the 24 companies that between them make up the two complex monopolies, in particular their national, regional and local market shares, together with data on the number of their larger stores. In the light of this, the Commission's provisional view is that, in relation to 19 of them, it would be unlikely to conclude that their behaviour operated against the public interest, and the Commission currently has no plans to arrange public interest hearings with any of them. These are Aldi Stores Ltd; Anglia Regional Co-operative Society Ltd; Budgens Stores Ltd; Colchester and East Essex Co-operative Society Ltd; CRS Ltd; CWS Ltd; E H Booth & Co Ltd; Iceland Frozen Foods plc; Lidl UK GmbH; Marks & Spencer plc; Midlands Co-operative Society Ltd; Netto Foodstores Ltd; Oxford, Swindon and Gloucester Co-operative Society Ltd; Plymouth and South Devon Co-operative Society Ltd; Scottish Midland Co-operative Society Ltd; Somerfield plc; United Norwest Co-operatives; Waitrose Ltd; and Yorkshire Co-operatives Ltd. This provisional view carries no implication that any of the activities of the other five companies, ASDA Group plc; Sainsbury Supermarkets Ltd; Wm Morrison Supermarkets plc; Safeway plc; and Tesco plc are or will be viewed as operating against the public interest. The Commission looks forward to discussing the issues with these five companies in March.

Views invited

Any person interested in these matters is invited to comment on any of the issues raised in this statement.