MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT
FRIDAY 23 NOVEMBER 2001
HELD IN ROOM 135 PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Dr IRK Paisley MP MEP(Chairperson)
Mr G Savage (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr B Armstrong
Mr J Dallat
Mr B Douglas
Mr D Ford
Mr G Kane
Mr G McHugh
Mr I Paisley Jnr
Apologies:
Mr PJ Bradley
In attendance:
Mr P Moore
Mr B Kennedy
Mr J McCourt
The Chairperson opened the meeting in public session at 10.03am. Mr Savage attended the meeting at 10.05am.
1. Minutes of Proceedings on Friday 16 November 2001.
1.1. Resolved: that the draft Minutes of Proceedings for 16 November 2001 were approved.
Mr Armstrong attended the meeting at 10.07am.
2. Members Business.
2.1. A member enquired if the Clerk had clarified the position on members of the public passing notes to members of the Committee during meetings.
2.2. The Clerk advised that, following recent consideration of the issue by the Clerk Assistant, the public was being discouraged from passing notes, through inclusion in the 'gallery rules' of an instruction that they were not to do so. He further advised that Committee members could meet with members of the public outside the Committee room to obtain information but that it was acknowledged that Chairpersons could not do so. In the absence of any Standing Order, or more formal ruling in relation to the matter, the Clerk's advice was that the final decision lay with the Chairperson.
2.3. The member stated that he may seek the views of the Speaker in relation to this matter.
Mr Douglas attended the meeting at 10.10am.
3. Matters arising from the meeting on 16 November 2001.
3.1. SR 391/01 - Farm Subsidies (Review of Decisions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001.
Members discussed the Minister's reply to the Deputy Chairperson in relation to an outstanding issue on the Farm Subsidies (Review of Decisions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 and Draft Code of Practice on Farm Subsidies Payments. The Committee then having examined the regulations in draft on 16 November 2001, formally considered the Rule.
Question put and agreed.
That the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development has considered the Farm Subsidies (Review of Decisions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 and has no objection to the Rule.
Resolved: that in communicating this decision to the Department, the Clerk should include a reference to the Committee's intention to return to the issue of fee refunds at the time of the proposed review.
3.2. Vision Group Report. The Chairperson informed members that the Minister had agreed to the Chairperson's suggestion that the Minister should meet with the Committee in January 2002 to discuss the outcome of the Vision Conference and responses to the consultation on the Vision Group Report.
Resolved: that members were content with this approach.
3.3. Northern Ireland Institute of Agricultural Science Conference. The Deputy Chairperson gave members a brief report of the NIIAS Conference which he and Mr Armstrong had attended on Wednesday 21 November 2001.
Resolved: that Committee staff would copy the papers that the Deputy Chairperson had received at the conference and distribute to all members.
3.4. Livestock and Meat Commission (LMC) Inquiry Report. The Clerk informed members that, as instructed, he had made informal enquiries with DARD and the LMC in relation to their responses to the Committee's report into the LMC. DARD stated that the Committee should have their response in the week commencing 3 December 2001. The LMC stated that they should have their response with the Committee by the end of November. Members were content to note this information and await receipt of papers.
Mr McHugh attended the meeting at 10.20am.
4. DARD Counter Fraud Strategy.
4.1. The Chairperson welcomed DARD officials Mr Gerry Lavery (Grade 7), Mr Sean McGuinness (Acting Head of Internal Audit Investigation Services) and Mr George McBride (Investigation Services), to the meeting at 10.22am.
4.2. Members questioned officials on a number of topics including the advice that the Department received from the Director of Public Prosecutions relating to the non-prosecution of twelve farmers due to a legal technicality; whether there was any further legislation that the Department knew was deficient; when the Department first realised that these farmers could not be prosecuted; allegations of a deal being done with farmers; amounts of funds involved; and the new guidelines being suggested for farmers keeping records of numbers of sheep.
Mr Ford left the meeting at 10.42am. The Chairperson and Mr Armstrong left the meeting at 10.56am and the Deputy Chairperson took the chair. The Chairperson returned to the meeting at 10.58am and assumed the chair. Mr Kane left the meeting at 11.01am.
4.3. The Chairperson explained to the officials that members were not able to ask all the questions that they had wished and the Committee might decide to put these in a letter to the Department. The officials agreed to provide a written reply.
Resolved: that the questions members were not able to ask would be sent to the Department for a written response.
4.4. Mr Dallat asked whether it would be useful for the Committee to see a copy of the minutes from the Minister's meeting with farmers in Newry, prior to the cull of animals in South Armagh. The Committee deliberated.
Resolved: that a letter should be sent to the Minister requesting a copy of the minutes from that meeting.
4.5. The Chairperson thanked the officials and they left the meeting at 11.05am. The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at that time.
The Chairperson resumed the meeting at 11.17am with Messrs Dallat, Douglas, Kane, Paisley Jnr and Savage present.
5. Higher Education and R&D in Agriculture and Food Science Review.
5.1. The Chairman welcomed Review Panel members Dr Daniel O'Hare (Chairman) and Mrs Catherine Dixon, accompanied by the secretary to the Panel, Dr Bernie Stuart, at 11.18am.
5.2. Dr O'Hare made an opening statement referring to the panel's remit, their work to date, and their requirement to come up with costed options for recommendations to the Minister.
Mr McHugh returned to the meeting at 11.22am.
5.3. Mrs Dixon provided a detailed summary of the range of input the panel had obtained and visits the panel had undertaken to date, and advised that the response deadline had been extended.
Mr Armstrong returned to the meeting at 11.35am.
5.4. Members noted, from the panel's answers to their questions, that responses to consultation had been slow; that although the panel would be looking at costs, where they arise and whether they are reasonable, and costs of future options, the panel would not be concerned with recommending the source(s) of funding; that the involvement of the private sector would be considered; that research and development would be an important feature; and that the effectiveness of the current system in supporting farmers and other sections of the agri-food industry would be explored.
5.5. The Chairperson thanked Dr O'Hare and colleagues and they left the meeting at 11.57am.
5.6. Resolved: that the Committee would consider a draft submission to the Review Panel at its next meeting, and that members should submit input for the draft to the Clerk .
6. Any Other Business.
6.1. Fisheries and Aquaculture Structures (Grants) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001. Members noted a letter from DARD advising that four schemes under these proposed regulations were to be introduced at the earliest opportunity. Members deliberated.
Resolved: that the Committee would seek views on the proposed schemes from relevant industry interests, prior to calling officials to discuss the schemes.
7. The Sheep Annual Premium (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001.
7.1. The Chairperson welcomed DARD officials Mr Ronnie Jordan (Grade 5) and Mr Philip McMurray (DP) to the meeting at 12.01pm.
7.2. Mr Jordan explained the draft Rule, which provides for periods in which to apply for sheep annual premium; deals with control measures and record keeping; and introduces a new offence relating to the requirement for producers to notify DARD of any material changes in respect of an application for sheep annual premium.
7.3. Members discussed with the officials, at length, the new provision with reference to the background of alleged fraud related to the sheep cull due to Foot and Mouth Disease, and the recent failure of prosecution action. Mr Jordan undertook to let the Committee know the date when DARD first came to know of the flaw in the existing legislation. He also explained that the new requirement to notify changes should remove the difficulty of proving intent in any future fraud proceedings. Members were concerned that the need to prosecute offenders successfully should be balanced against the potential to penalise honest applicants who might simply make a mistake. Mr Jordan gave an assurance that every suspect case would be looked at on its merits.
Mr McHugh left the meeting at 12.25pm.
7.4. Members were concerned that the Committee should have adequate time to consider draft legislation and some members considered that DARD expertise in drafting legislation might need examined in the light of drafting criticisms in the recent report of the Examiner of Statutory Rules. Members noted that these Regulations would also breach the 21-day rule but that DARD felt it necessary to introduce the Regulations before the opening date for the scheme (4 December 2001).
Resolved: that the Committee is content for DARD to proceed to make the Rule.
7.5. Members raised concerns that the Department's mistakes may reflect badly on the Committee's scrutiny of Statutory Rules. The Clerk advised members that the Committee had delegated responsibility for technical scrutiny (including drafting and the 21-day rule) to the Examiner of Statutory Rules. The Committee's consideration was therefore concerned mainly with scrutiny of the policy reflected in the Statutory Rules.
7.6. The Chairperson thanked the officials and they left the meeting at 12.40pm.
8. Examiner of Statutory Rules: First Report 2001-2002.
8.1. Members noted the First Report 2001-2002 of the Examiner of Statutory Rules, which drew attention to deficiencies in drafting, of a minor or technical nature, in relation to six Statutory Rules submitted by DARD. The Committee also noted that three other DARD Statutory Rules had breached the 21-day rule.
9. Any Other Business - continued.
9.1. Farm Quality Assurance Scheme. A member raised the matter of the standards set out under the Farm Quality Assurance Scheme. Members deliberated.
Resolved: that the Committee would write to the Livestock and Meat Commission, who administer the scheme.
9.2. Resolved: that the Committee would carry forward items of Any Other Business, and the Natural Resource Rural Tourism item, to the next meeting.
10. Date of Next Meeting.
10.1. Resolved: that the next meeting will take place on Friday 30 November 2001 in Room 135, Parliament Buildings, at 10.00am.
The Chairperson brought the meeting to a close at 12.50pm.
Ian R K Paisley
Chairperson